knottyBuoyz III The TW28 Project

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Evan_Gatehouse
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Post by Evan_Gatehouse »

Here's some ebay purchases. First number is actually paid, 2nd is budget amout. All prices in CDN, delivered.

Force 10 3 burner Euro sub 880 $1401.48
Propane solenoid valve 39 $68
fuel filter Racor 500FG 82 $191
cutless bearing 25 $68
(used) scuba compressor 2,655 $3,435
used 15 HP Yamaha outboard 1000 $2050

PRivate sales (not ebay)
anchor Spade A140 669 $1000
folding prop 17" 3 blade Autostream 2142 $2550
~16 carbon/nomex interior panels 600 no budget - but figure about $500 each retail.
used Yanmar 3GM30 4,132 $8,928

And finally for those who think all projects grow in cost. The big cost increases have been increasing the scope (like added the radar, spinnaker and scuba compressor). If I dropped those, the cost would be even less.

Cost estimate changes ($1,000's CDN):

133.3 11/3/03 bought boat
132.6 11/24/03 added radar, less survey adjustments
134.0 12/1/03 higher engine price, added engine controls, cables, traveller upgrade
131.3 1/1/04 removed moorage costs
127.5 1/13/04 cheaper: prop, E glass for cabin, windlass, radar
127.2 1/18/04 cheaper mast beam
125.6 1/28/04 cheaper Yanmar supplier
124.6 1/29/04 cheaper stanchions
127.9 2/4/04 cheaper Yanmar supplier was error
127.6 2/5/04 cheaper epoxy, cheaper engine
126.7 3/15/04
121.3 4/1/04 bought cheap diesel engine
125.5 6/29/04 epoxy/foam/glass prices higher
122.3 11/22/04 epoxy / glass prices cheaper
121.3 11/24/04 glass prices cheaper, USD cheaper
120.3 1/5/05 1 more solar panel; some ebay shopping cheaper, cheaper o/b motor
119.9 1/19/05 more good shopping
124.5 3/5/05 added scuba compressor; lots more building materials cost
125.1 4/5/05 more building materials stuff
123.8 4/28/05 rebate on biaxial;
125.0 5/15/05 US dollar increase; missing cabin heaters
130.0 7/11/05 added spinnaker
129.6 8/30/05 after expensive haulout, lots of little things that added up
129.3 11/14/2005 cheaper Spade anchor & rode
130.8 11/28/2005 had to buy more epoxy; solar panels big price increase
129.5 3/6/2006 updated
128.2 5/16/2006 cheaper dive compressor, cheaper EPIRB, USD cheaper
127.4 5/29/2006 cheaper outboard
designer: FB11/GV10,11,13/ HMD18/
SK17,MM21/MT24

laporter
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Post by laporter »

Worked some on the Electrical guestimate today. The results are too big to post here as a jpeg.

There's still a lot of items missing quantities & prices so the work will continue. Just wanted to illustrate how elaborate the system will be and hence why so expensive. I'll also pare down these numbers as I find better prices also hope to do some bulk purchases from wholesalers so that'll affect the bottom end as well.

If anybody knows of good online sources for any of these items w/better prices I'd like to hear from you.

Maybe this will help others planning something similar but not everyone will be as elaborate. I'm going this route because this is pretty much what we have on our existing boat and what we want on our next. Items such as the Fridge & Windlass are all big buck items that we currently don't have but want. When I get the other systems done I'll post them all online.

Here's the running total so far.....

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/kbii/summary.htm

Thanks guys.

Rick
Yours Aye!
Rick, Lori & Shadow

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JohnI
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Post by JohnI »

You did a great job on that Rick -- well done.

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Evan_Gatehouse
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Post by Evan_Gatehouse »

Electrical:
-----------------------------
Your DC electrical system seems overly complex. Why have a breaker panel for the main panel + 2x12 position fuse blocks + 20 switches? 18 circuits also seems like more than enough for a 28' boat.

Why so many digital dimmers? For night operation just have a few light fixtures with red bulbs. Wheelhouse electronics should have built in dimmers/night lighting.

I've never seen a fused starting battery for the engine starting circuit.

You only need one GFCI outlet - tie the other ones downstream to it and all are protected

Why all the primary wire? Boat's DC systems are wired with duplex wire.

Don't put a fluorescent in the head. They are only on for a few minutes and the bulb and ballast will suffer from frequent on/off. Cheaper incandescent here.

You don't need a vapour proof engine light if you use a diesel engine.

FW circ pump seems very costly.

Solar panels are available for a lot less than this. Just google solar panels
http://shop.altenergystore.com/items~Cn ... p~~Bc~.htm
http://www.suntrekenergy.com/specials.htm
http://www.oasismt.com/usedsolar.html
http://www.partsonsale.com/kyocera.html

Anchoring / Mooring:
----------------------------------------------------
Have either the mooring post OR 2 x 8" cleats on the bow. 2 x 8" cleats on stern. Don't need midship cleats for a 28' boat.

Mooring ropes are too big and too expensive. 1/2" will be more than sufficient. Buy rope and splice eyes yourself. Don't buy in a chandlery. Yellow pages for ROPE.

Anchor chain (1/2" or 7MM BBB Grade 40) - doesn't make sense. 1/4" is approriate for this size boat which is 6mm. BBB OR Grade 40, not both (2 different styles). Don't buy chain from a chandlery. Use yellow pages and look for chain.

Don't use an anchor swivel. They don't swivel under load and you're only using 20' of chain; not enough to tangle.

Ditch the chain stopper. Not necessary on this size boat or anchor. Piece of rope with a s.s. carabiner. Clip to anchor to hold it in place. Or a pin through the anchor roller into the hole on the anchor.
....
I'm not trying to be rude here but have you ever owned a small boat?

What you have listed seems like an awful lot for a 28' trawler and a fair bit seems oversize for the boat.


Finally there is one very important comment. You're thinking of paying retail right? I don't do that if at all possible. For sandpaper and a few screws, sure, but for all the medium priced bits I buy from my local marine wholesaler. The big ticket items I shop ebay and private online sales.

For purchases of this magnitude, you should be thinking of setting up a boat building company. Nothing fancy, just some letterhead "Rick's Custom Boats". Then you buy from a big wholesaler. Western Marine is the big one out here; they bought Transat in Barrie ON last year ago.

Find out who the wholesaler in your region is and talk to them. Say you have a contract to build this boat and want to know what they can do for you. Port Supply through West Marine is another. Discounts for electrical equipment is in the 50% range. For marine electronics it's in the 5% range however. Varies all over the map, but 30-40% off retail is typical. Offer to put down a credit of $2000 to show them you're serious about spending money with them.
designer: FB11/GV10,11,13/ HMD18/
SK17,MM21/MT24

laporter
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Post by laporter »

Thanks Evan

All good advice and exactly what I need to hear. We have a 25' express cruiser. My experience is with bigger boats yes, 47' Motor Life boats and icebreaker/buoytenders where everything is oversized.

I've never wired a complete boat but have done quite a substantial retrofit of our existing boat which entailed prodigious use of primary wire. Hopefully as I progress I'll get better at guestimating. I'll be kicking the cat again tonight on the estimates so stay tuned. Thanks very much. I appreciate your time.

Rick
Yours Aye!
Rick, Lori & Shadow

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Post by jacquesmm »

I agree with Evan, your estimates are too high and you should not pay retail.
For example, on the engine, we'll give you a discount if you buy it as a kit. We sell those Vetus accessories for almost half of what you list.

Then for things like ground tackle, I would not pay boutique prices either. get your chain from a hardware store but get more. And buy two or three anchors, not one. Build the swim platform your self: if you can build a boat, the platform will be child's play.
I did not go through the whole spreadsheet but really, the BBQ does not belong in the cost of boat building materials. :wink:
Same for the dock extension cords.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://boatbuildercentral.com

laporter
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Post by laporter »

Ok, thanks again Evan, you just saved $1200. Sorry no commission, well at least not yet.

This is still pretty early on in the planning phase and I wanted to create the "worst case" scenario but have actually been pretty surprised and it's not as bad as I thought it would be. Your advice is greatly appreciated and I'm sure Lori's (wife) Mastercard statement will be a little lighter when we get started. So I'll address your comments individually.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Your DC electrical system seems overly complex. Why have a breaker panel for the main panel + 2x12 position fuse blocks + 20 switches? 18 circuits also seems like more than enough for a 28' boat.
I started with the BOM for our 32' steel trawler and have been working my way down to a reasonable level of equipment for this boat. It'll get thinner as I go.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Why so many digital dimmers? For night operation just have a few light fixtures with red bulbs. Wheelhouse electronics should have built in dimmers/night lighting.
Same excuse as above. I think I'll need 2, one for main cabin lights and 1 for fans maybe. I know I could probably get away with none.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:I've never seen a fused starting battery for the engine starting circuit..
Neither have I, again copied from other project BOM.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:You only need one GFCI outlet - tie the other ones downstream to it and all are protected.
Done, thanks. Somehow I knew that.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Why all the primary wire? Boat's DC systems are wired with duplex wire.
Corrected but not fully priced out. I'm pushing the elec guru at work for a complete BOM for the electrical. Until then I have to make it up as I go.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Don't put a fluorescent in the head. They are only on for a few minutes and the bulb and ballast will suffer from frequent on/off. Cheaper incandescent here.
Done
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:You don't need a vapour proof engine light if you use a diesel engine.
Done
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:W circ pump seems very costly.
Researching cheaper/economical alternatives.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Anchoring / Mooring:
----------------------------------------------------
Have either the mooring post OR 2 x 8" cleats on the bow. 2 x 8" cleats on stern. Don't need midship cleats for a 28' boat.
Done.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Mooring ropes are too big and too expensive. 1/2" will be more than sufficient. Buy rope and splice eyes yourself. Don't buy in a chandlery. Yellow pages for ROPE..
I think the store bought ones are cheap enough. I've adjusted the size. I never learned to splice sampson braid when I was a deckand, maybe I should have.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Anchor chain (1/2" or 7MM BBB Grade 40) - doesn't make sense. 1/4" is approriate for this size boat which is 6mm. BBB OR Grade 40, not both (2 different styles). Don't buy chain from a chandlery. Use yellow pages and look for chain.
Typo. Adjusted.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Don't use an anchor swivel. They don't swivel under load and you're only using 20' of chain; not enough to tangle.
Didn't know that. We might use our anchor half dozen times a year in always calm water. No tides or wicked wind shifts to worry about.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Ditch the chain stopper. Not necessary on this size boat or anchor. Piece of rope with a s.s. carabiner. Clip to anchor to hold it in place. Or a pin through the anchor roller into the hole on the anchor.
Done. That's exactly how we have it on our current boat.

Image
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:What you have listed seems like an awful lot for a 28' trawler and a fair bit seems oversize for the boat.
Big ship experience combined with a little bit of overzealous boat builder envy. I think we all (newbies) want to have it all in 28' when in reality it's not feasable or even possible. We do want to have at least what we have in our 25 footer w/more refrig capacity, more elect. capacity (to remain more independent of shorepower) and a bit more space to move around like a head I can stand up in to haul up my drawers w/o banging my head or having to step into the cabin to do it.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Finally there is one very important comment. You're thinking of paying retail right? I don't do that if at all possible. For sandpaper and a few screws, sure, but for all the medium priced bits I buy from my local marine wholesaler. The big ticket items I shop ebay and private online sales.
The retail prices are for the "worst case" scenario. If I follow all of your leads I know I can do better. I figured 20% was reasonable on most of the low dollar items. Things like engines I might not do as well. I've just begun to scan some Internet sellers for best prices and have included only a few in the estimate so far.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:For purchases of this magnitude, you should be thinking of setting up a boat building company. Nothing fancy, just some letterhead "Rick's Custom Boats". Then you buy from a big wholesaler. Western Marine is the big one out here; they bought Transat in Barrie ON last year ago.
I've thought of that. I also don't have a problem with supporting local industries if I know I get value in service. As much as we all dislike paying taxes they do support some worthwhile programs (like my salary).
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Find out who the wholesaler in your region is and talk to them. Say you have a contract to build this boat and want to know what they can do for you. Port Supply through West Marine is another. Discounts for electrical equipment is in the 50% range. For marine electronics it's in the 5% range however. Varies all over the map, but 30-40% off retail is typical. Offer to put down a credit of $2000 to show them you're serious about spending money with them.
There aren't any in the immediate area. There's the main ones like CC, Mermaid, Straight-MacKay and Hutchins and they're all willing to work with "their" local retailers. The only way seems to be as you suggested. I'll have to explore that possibility for sure. There's also a boat building co-op in Ontario that I'm investigating.

So, after all that, do you think this is a worthwhile exercise? I certainly don't want to get 3/4 of the way through the project and be destitute and I think there's a few projects that get started and flop because of poor planning and poor project management. So, if we all can learn a thing or two from this all, I believe it's worth it.

Thanks again.

Rick
Last edited by laporter on Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Rick, Lori & Shadow

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Post by laporter »

jacquesmm wrote:I agree with Evan, your estimates are too high and you should not pay retail.
For example, on the engine, we'll give you a discount if you buy it as a kit. We sell those Vetus accessories for almost half of what you list..
We'll definitely talk when the time comes.

jacquesmm wrote:Then for things like ground tackle, I would not pay boutique prices either. get your chain from a hardware store but get more. And buy two or three anchors, not one. Build the swim platform your self: if you can build a boat, the platform will be child's play.
Absolutely. Maybe we'll collaborate on a design and you can add it to your catalogue.
jacquesmm wrote:I did not go through the whole spreadsheet but really, the BBQ does not belong in the cost of boat building materials. :wink:
Same for the dock extension cords.
Gotcha. I'll move that to another "Nice to have" section.

So, Jacques, what do you think? Is it a worthwhile exercise? I mean it can illustrate the "true cost" of a complete outfit of a very nice boat. Maybe we can all learn something from the whole process. I think properly managing a project of this size with the considerable outlay in capital is the key to success.

You can have the blank spreadsheets when I'm done and you can include them in your plans kit if you want.

I don't want to build a crappy boat if I'm only ever going to get the chance to build one in my life (waiting on TW32*hint hint*). I know it'll never be a Shannon or Devlin but it's gonna be well done. If I was willing to settle for a crappy boat I'd spend my $60K on a 20 yr old Baygrinder.

Rick

PS. Any word from Macca yet?
Yours Aye!
Rick, Lori & Shadow

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Post by laporter »

So I've moved a few things around. Some costs are fixed so there's no economy there. There's plenty of wiggle room anywhere inbetween the two extremes and I'm comfortable with that. Not really as bad as I originally thought when compared to the steel 32' trawler that was tipping over $200K.

Image

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/kbii/summary.htm

Rick
Last edited by laporter on Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
Yours Aye!
Rick, Lori & Shadow

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Post by jacquesmm »

It's a good exercise, no doubt.
I have done it a few times to illustrate that the real cost is not in the hull materials and that one should not take shortcuts with plywood or resin.
Start with a quality hull and keep the boat simple, that's my philosophy.
The TW28 is a small trawler. Big for it's waterline but still a small trawler.
I like to keep my boats very simple but that's really personal.
You can have all what you list like fridge, inverter, shower in the cockpit and electric windlass, the boat can take it but it seriously increases the cost.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://boatbuildercentral.com

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