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Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:06 pm
by Dougster
Hey folks, I've come down here to start a thread where I can just carry on when I don't even know enough to bother Jacques with a specific question upstairs. You may have seen me in the marathon recent thread where half the forum struggled mightily to help me through getting the panels on the frames. I do have some pictures posted in the gallery that I think should be called Dougster-LB22. However, a search of that in the gallery finds nothing. Indeed it is on page 25 however. Oddly enough a search of "Dougster" finds an album with only one picture in it. God knows what I did, but the real thing is on page 25 of the gallery.

Recent news is continued tweaking of the panels, getting closer and closer. All straps and turnbuckles (see gallery or above mentioned thread) are finalized and I'm just fiddling with little edges and things. Everything takes longer than I think. Tomorrow I intend to wind down the fiddle and crawl around underneath the hull and put packing tape along all seams. Or so I say. I'm not stalling at all. No fear of jumping in with the 'poxy and tack welding. Not a bit. No, no. Did I say I say no nerves? Yes, well, so I did.

Glad not to be alone here Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:57 am
by WobblyLegs
"Dougster"

Tomorrow I intend to wind down the fiddle and crawl around underneath the hull and put packing tape along all seams. Or so I say. I'm not stalling at all. No fear of jumping in with the 'poxy and tack welding. Not a bit. No, no. Did I say I say no nerves? Yes, well, so I did.

Glad not to be alone here Dougster
Hi Dougster,

I was following your "marathon" question thread, and am glad you are now preparing to start joining it all together. To make it easier, when you start with the 'poxy, mix in batches small enough that you can use it all without rushing. Rushing is not good...

Even though you only have minutes (10? 20?) to mix and spread/fillet epoxy, as long as you do it methodically (finish one section before moving to the next), you will have hours available to do the whole job.

As you get on with the project and you gain experience using the sticky stuff, you will look back at this moment and wonder what all the fuss was about.

Having said that, I still find I need to mentally prepare myself when starting a long epoxy session - check you have all the tools necessary. Check you have enough mixing cups and enough sticks. Check that your woodflour (or whatever filleting mix you prefer) is close by and open - you don't want to fiddle with stubborn lids with sticky gloves on. Check you have all the glass measured, cut and ready to lay. Make sure you have some cleaning materials close at hand (acetone) for wiping up spills, cleaning wood etc. Make sure you have enough gloves availble so you can change them often - although epoxy is very sticky, it's also very slimey and slippery when you gloves are covered with it. Running out of gloves is a major pita.

I also make sure I have a bucket of water close by so I can wash my hands without having to touch a tap (faucet?) with sticky fingers.

Go though the process, step by step, in your mind (even act it out) several times before mixing. Make sure that you won't end up halfway through, and suddenly find you need something you can't find.

Most of all, enjoy working on it and DON'T PANIC. If something's not going right, stop, step back, look at it, figure out why it's not right, find a solution, and move with it. Even though you don't have too long to WORK with epoxy, you do have an extended period where you can scrape it off if needs be, clean up a bit, and try again.

I look forward to watching your wood turn into a boat.

Best of luck (and you're never alone building a Bateau boat!).

Tim.

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:16 am
by Dougster
Thanks for the tips Tim, I like the bucket of water idea and realize I need to "organize" a bit. I did build the Devlin Dinghy "Pollywog" as an excercise to see if I was up to this sort of thing and if I really did enjoy it. That dinghy is stitch and glue and glassed on the outside. I struggled with that glassing and taping, and had lots of bubbles in the glass that had to be ground out and faired. I work slowly and wet on wet won't always be possible. The project is so big to me I just take one step at a time and don't much think of the next one. Otherwise it feels overwhelming. I have followed your C17 thread and admire your craftsmanship. Things look so neat and well fit. My work is more primitive and obviously amateur. Still, stubborn will get me there I think. Hope you get some warm weather.

Got to get it going on Dougster

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:33 am
by ks8
Once the skills are developed, you'll find you can work fast in a panic. :lol:

But you need to learn when to throw away a batch that is *going off* and not try to stretch it. I've toossed about a dozen *small* batches*, but foolishly tried to use 3 others, one of which I had to grind off, and the other two, I pretend to know nothing about (not critical structural areas). 8O

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:34 pm
by Dougster
It's hard to toss a batch. I "cheaped up" once on the Devlin Dinghy learning project and payed the price. On payin' the price I'll say this: rather not. 'Poxy, in my extremely limited experience, is damned unforgiving, sticky stinky, make you break in blister rash, miracle stuff. One must hate and bless it, I suppose. I'll do both. It is wonderful. It allows wood butcher amateurs to build a boat, but no free lunch.

Enough on the negative. I finished the fiddle today, spent 2 hrs. happily crawling underneath Ms. Nina's skirts putting packing tape on the joints to catch 'poxy fillet bleed throughs. She's warm and pleasant up there, like it's supposed to be. I was gentle.

Tack weld on his mind Dougster 8O

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:54 pm
by Dougster
Hey guys I tried a little bit of tack welding on the vertical seam of the bow. I have some of the Silvertip Gelmagic and, like another poster I've read found it way to runny. More like honey than peanut butter, and an hour after application half had run out of the vertical seam. I had taken a tip from the Devlin book and covered the seam with packing tape after the fillet was put on, which helped some. But basically I don't like it. Maybe ok for nice flat seams like the keel. I'm thinking I'd do better mixing my own with wood flour and some marinepoxy, saving the Silvertip resin I have for wetting out the glass. I can add wood flour to the Gelmagic I guess, do folks think that's acceptable? Seems kinda silly to pay $$ for Gelmagic, and then mix wood flour anyway. Also the stuff is a pita to mix, 'cuz it's too thick for pumps and pours in big globs. Now that Gelmagic in a cartridge sure looks like a slick timesaver, but what good if it all runs out of vertical seams? Anybody had better luck with it?

Not likin' that Gelmagic Dougster

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:34 pm
by Super Spook
I believe you may be using the Gel Magic in an application for which the EZ Fillet is intended. The Gel Magic is used to replace the glue mix. I've played around with the EZ Fillet some and I think that it will work for what you're doing, especially with the tape under the seam.

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:45 am
by Dougster
Well, good grief, yeah of course you're right 'Spook. :oops: It may be that I'm too stupid to live. Good Lord, if I can build this boat it will prove anyone can be Noah. Well no harm done, the little section I did needs some sanding but a half hour of trouble will make it right. I will say putting packing tape on top of the fillet worked very well, a kind of poor man's peel ply. The seam there is smooth.

Been a fool before so I'll get over it Dougster

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:21 pm
by Spokaloo
No worries doug, no worries. The nice part about a joint that flowed out is you can go back and put more in! Im a mixer myself, get it the way I want it with woodflour, silica, fairing compounds, wheat flour, etc.

I am finishing up the panels on mine today and possibly friday, so stitching should be coming up next week. Fit out should be done by the end of feb and glue should start in march.

You should post your photos at www.photobucket.com so you can post them in the threads!

E

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:35 pm
by MadRus
Image

At least I thought you could.

There's got to be a way. I'm sure Joel posted something about it just a couple weeks ago.

There we go...

1. Go to your gallery.
2. Choose the pic you want to include in your forum message.
3. Right click on the image in the gallery and select "PROPERTIES" from the pop-up list.
4. Highlight the entire URL displayed in the "PROPERTIES" dialog box and copy it.
5. Paste it into your forum message between Image tags.

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:08 pm
by Dougster
Hey fellas, how's it going? Yeah Eric, no fear on the seam run. It was just a three foot test and half of it is really good. Try that packing tape thing. It's peel ply for seams. The bottom half didn't run and I got a great smooth, rounded fillet on the the seam (bow stern). Gotta grind out the the top half a bit but that looks like ten minute job. But I don't get the stuff on pics. I can post 'em fine, just don't have anything new to add. There's a bunch in my gallery. Can you see 'em? If you search for Dougster you get this silly one picture file, but go to page 25 and it's pretty up to date. Doesn't have the last pics of the blown seam, but a guy needs some dignity :oops:

I haven't touched her since my last post. Other stuff and such. Not to worry, Nina calls me every day. Tomorrow is wife stuff, of course. V day and all. Next day I'm not welcome in the house after work: girl's bunco night. I told Shirley I'm picking up Bar-B-Que on the way home and heading down to the shop for the duration :D Gonna bust the seal on the EZ fillet and see how easy. Just do a little. Any way, what's on my mind is the step after next. I mean, I can slop on some 'poxy and then pull the screws and cut the zips (please God no sproing!). Then I'm good with the tape. But oh my, the glass puts fear in me :| Been reading old Boatbuilder mags circa 1999 and found a 3 part article where the guy (Tolman of the Tolman Skiiffs no less) recommends wetting out the ply first on 20 plus footers and then laying the glass on 'cuz it sticks better on the vertical sides. Oh, and because it makes leaching out 'poxy goody less likely. Thoughts? Yeah, and BTW, what's with Boatbuilder? The recent ones don't do it for me, what have they done? I've been a wanna-a-be for 15 years, reading that thing. Thank God I got off the fence. I'm thinkin', succeed or fail, bein' wanna-be gives some nice reading, but sawdust and 'poxy mess is big time mo' fun. Kinda like kissing your sister versus that little thing next door.

Gimme some pics Eric, how you doin' Mad?,

Gonna check out that EZ fancy fillet 'poxy Dougster

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:56 pm
by Spokaloo
Just returned from Mexico D, and kinda kicking myself in the ass. Had a 14 hr layover at DFW and forgot to get ahold of you. Ah well, the bed in the DFW Hyatt was NIIIICE

Stitched my bottom panels together tuesday. Other than the bow mold not being anywhere near short enough (going to have to monkey a bit with it), the whole centerline seam stitched up nicely. The ply took the curves better than yours did, but still not tolerating some of the bends and giving me a 1-2" peak over the C frame. Ironically it hits the B frame really well from the center to 2/3 of the way down. Im reasonably happy, as I havent had to cut the slits yet.

One side is glued up, the other will be gluing tomorrow.

Tomorrows schedule:

leave work, glue up side panel, back to town for surgical consult on my sniffer, back home to strip the dock for a rebuild.

TOO MANY PROJECTS!

E

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:47 pm
by robbiro
Dougster,
I work in a psychiatric hospital and one of my psychologist friends continues to remind folks that I think that I am the new NOAH. I have to keep reminding him that I only have three animals at my house all cats, 2 female, one male(they are ALL FIXED!) So I guess that that blows that theory. I will admit I have gotten several other comments concerning the need to build my own boat and I guess it would have been nice to be a fly on the wall to hear all of the grief that Noah really had to listen to over the 100 years that his build took 8O I hope that my GF-16 does not take that long or my sons son will be finishing it. Keep on plugging away at it, we are all following your work and learning from it.

Keep on Buildin'

Robbie

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:25 pm
by ks8
Of course Noah didn't HAVE two of everything.. nor did he have to go hunt them down... they were sent to him, and some critters came in sevens, not twos. Quite a backyard zoo! Maybe you should have made that GF two feet longer? :lol:

Nah... isn't it supposed to be fire next time anyway? 8O

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:08 am
by Dougster
One does get a more sentimental perception of Noah during this process it seems. Hey Eric, DFW is 250 miles north of me, but if you're ever around, let me know. I'll be in Vancouver Island this summer, maybe you'll be vacationing that way again. Check out my turnbuckle 2 by 4's setup on the gallery (page 25). It worked well. The 2 by 4's distributed the load along the keel and prevented dips. The wire slid down from a cross piece on top of the 2 by's through the keel and down to the strongback. Cinch up on that with the turnbuckle and you'll get a good inch back anyway on the C frame peak. Lucky not to need the slits, they're a bit of a pain to fair but sure do work well. That Okume sounds nice, taking the bends a little better. I'm gonna get going this afternoon and tomorrow on the tack welding thing. Hey Robbiro, your son and you will be using that GF-16 and he'll get hooked and build his own boat.

Keepin' on building Dougster

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:13 am
by MadRus
Hi Dougster,

Frankly, I think the filleting and taping of seams is far more frustrating than wetting out a large piece of cloth. Working wet-on-wet, which I would strongly suggest, takes a bit of timing and grace to get into a good flow. It doesn't take long to find your rhythm, but it's definately harder than spreading out a big piece of cloth and soaking it with a squeegy.

Having seen your work so far, I'm sure you'll have no problem with either job.

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:24 am
by Dougster
Hey MadRus, thanks for the support. Yesterday a spent a couple of hours gooping on some EX fillet with a tongue depressor (spot welding). Makes a bit of a mess but putting the packing tape over it seems to help. Today I'll try the put it in a zip lock baggie and cut the corner off to pipe it in thing. To me the EZ fillet is still a little too thin, certainly it is for vertical seams. I guess one could add some wood flour to it for those needed areas. It's also a big pain to mix accurately by volume, as it doesn't pour. I think mixing by weight with a good digital scale (100 to 44) would make it easier. We have one in the kitchen, but talking my wife out of it may be a bigger pita than continuing to mix by volume. :) Any way, the stuff is more expensive and I'm not convinced worth it. Mixing your own to the desired consistency for the intended use seems more practical.

This spot welding is only a bit tedious so far. More so the bow around the slits, they need fairing and I can't use quick fair 'tll the glass is on. Anyway, after the outside is spot welded I gotta crawl underneath with little bits of glass and 'poxy goop to spot weld the frames good so I don't get the dreaded SPROING when I let go the screws and turnbuckles. 8O That's overhead work so maybe I'll thicken the 'poxy a bit, I'll see.

Goin' down to the shop today Dougster :)

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:23 am
by Spokaloo
Superdoug, dont thicken your epoxy before wetting out your glass. Itll stick, you will get it dripping down your tools, but it wont wet worth a damn if there is thickening agent. Just glove up and throw on an apron. If you have something plastic for sleeves, use that too.

Dont be shy about putting good sized straps of glass inside. Whos ever gonna see it?

E

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:55 am
by MadRus
I like the baggie used like a cake decorator and I usually use a plastic spoon to shape my fillets- I just find it more comfortable that's all.

Sounds like you're about ready to get goopy. Good for you.

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:29 pm
by Dougster
Roger that Spoke, no thickener on the 'glass tack welds. Cover up and get goopy. I finished the bow slit area and the chine seams. Keel seam to go. After several days, the 'poxy is still tacky to touch, but can't be dented with a thumbnail. Oh well, it's hell mixing that darn "EZ" fillet. I did talk the wife out of the digital scale, but it only measured to the quarter ounze. Here's a picture with the packing tape on the seams, which holds them in place if need be and really makes them smoother.

Image


I still gotta climb on top and do the keel line, then get underneath and tack with the glass. Do I need to put in little fillets for the glass? I assume so or the glass won't take the 90degree corner. I don't want it to be too hard to break/cut loose to get the stations out later. BTW, after overmixing the first batch of "EZ" fillet and cutting the corner too big I learned and had good luck with the baggie/cake decorator thing. Like it a lot. Next I'll I'll try the plastic spoons.

Moving along slowly Dougster

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:45 am
by MadRus
I don't fillet when I tack the panels together with glass squares. I just soak them out on the table and place them where I want them- just woven cloth, not biaxial. They're then easy to sand off when the time comes- after you've finished the outside seams with biax. Takes about a minute to sand one off with 60 grit on a random orbital sander.

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:52 am
by Spokaloo
Rus got to you before I did, and said VERBATIM what I was going to say. Do you have any extra 6oz glass tape? Pretty convenient as you will find a million uses for it.

Im hopefully stitching the sides up today....

E

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:50 pm
by Dimitris
Your boat looks like a sea urchin with all these ties :)

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:56 pm
by jacquesmm
It looks good and tight but if it was my boat, I would have left large gaps, almost no screws, no stitches, just a little bit of duct tape while the spot welding cures.
The end product will look nice this way too, no problem, it's just a different way of working.

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:31 pm
by Spokaloo
Jacques Im kinda moving your direction on that, leaving up to 1" gaps at the frames, as it takes a HUGE amount of energy to hold all that camber.

Lookin forward to your progress Doug, I just got diagnosed with pneumonia, then to add insult to injury, broke one of my butt joints while trying to move a panel alone....

E

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:35 pm
by MadRus
broke one of my butt joints while trying to move a panel alone....
I hope we're talking about boat anatomy there, not human anatomy. I hope you get better soon.

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:03 pm
by stickystuff
Being an old drywall finisher Ifind that useing a 4" drywall knife works great for spreading the thickened epoxy. I have access to scrap poly sheets.1/8" and I mix my thickened epoxy, pour it on a 12 x12" piece of poly and then use the knife to scoop up some and spread it over the seams. You can use the edges of the drywall knife to clean the edges of the seam and not waste any of the fillet material. Saves time and material and relatively fast. Makes it smoother and less to sand off the rough edges. Just a tip.You can work a lot faster to. :wink:

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:05 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for chiming in guys, I especially appreciate the timely tip about no fillets on the glass tack welds I'm gonna put on underneath the boat. Makes clear sense to me and sounds easy. I'm getting more worried though about the tacky fillets I have on though. Some of it is a week old and still sticky, that's bad. That darn EZ fillet is hard for me to measure and get an accurate mix, and I fear I got it a little short of hardener. I tried sanding a little section and sure enough, it loaded up the sandpaper. However, the fillet seems hard and dry after I sanded it. I painted on a little bit of unthickened epoxy on another 6" section to see if that will kick it off, but I don't know. The epoxy is not soft, but a knife can shave off areas that are paper thin that sagged against the packing tap. However a knife can't dig into it. Thumbnail can't make any impression. It irritates me. A three foot verticle section on the bow is finished with old left over epoxy from my little dinghy learning project. I mixed wood flour to the peanut butter consistency thing and, no problem. That section is dry and hard. What's with this EZ fillet stuff. Temperature is around 60 degrees with 65% humidity. Kinda kicked off but sticky to the touch. I'm not resting easy about it, but it's probably a lot better than pneumonia and broken butt joints :) Heal up Spoke, I need you up front of me on the build.

Got the sticky 'poxy blues Dougster

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:33 am
by Spokaloo
Not that this is a reccomended practice, but being in the medical field its what we would call a "diagnostic procedure". I have done this before, but the temp circumstances and humidity are different here than there.


Get a 500w shoplight or other infrared heater. Heat one section of one fillet so that its a little too hot to touch for an hour or so. Dont melt your ties and dont start a fire, but generally 140ish degrees is the general area.

You will get one of a few results. Complete cure (yay!), no change ( sand and refillet or at least recoat), intense sagging and running (clean it out of the joint while hot and itll be cake to reglue).

Like I said, not a gougeon brothers technique, but one that you can at least try on one fillet to see what results you get. Plus its something you can do in an after-dinner work session.

E

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:06 pm
by Dougster
Hey Spoke, maybe I'll try that later on a section. It still is no better: sticky, but pretty darn hard, and today the temp in the shop is close to 80 degrees. Not so good sign. The section I brushed unthickened epoxy over is rock hard from that kicking, but sand it off and you hit the slightly tacky part again. The area I did sand is still dry and hard though, I put a piece of spill from the suspect batch in the car on this warm day. The piece is about the size and thickness of a silver dollar. It lost pretty much of its stickiness but can be bent, like a very stiff piece of leather. I don't relish sanding this, and can't really see how to get it all off. It's in gaps between the panels where no sandpaper can reach and it's way, way too tough to manually scrape out with. I'm beginning to think sand it down pretty smooth to where it's no longer sticky and proceed. That wouldn't be difficult, just a couple hours maybe. Getting it all off is quite another story. I don't see this tack weld outside part of the chine seam as that structural, compared to the outside tape, inside thicker fillet, and inside tape to follow. What do folks think?

I'll fix it one way or the other Dougster

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:26 pm
by gk108
If it's leathery tough a surform might shave it down for you. It might get a little clogged, but you can clean it.

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:17 pm
by Dougster
Well, thanks, GK, the first bit of good news: an excuse for a new tool. :) Doesn't Stanley make it? Needs a carbide bit? Oddly enough I just read about that tool a few nights ago in an old boat builders magazine. It would be lots better than sanding for sure. Still couldn't get in the gap, but that's just a little bit. It's tougher than leather I think, but, still...

Wantin' a surform Dougster

PS: really, thanks for the tip, I'm thinking that's a fine idea

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:17 pm
by Rob Eades
Hey Doug,

A long time lurkin' LB22 admirer hear finally chimin' in.

On my "practice" 12 footer,still hard aground in the garage,I found that a scolloped wood cutting atachment on a Dremel made short work of bad fillets and spot welds.

Now maybe a 22 footer is a little big for anything stuck on the end of a Dremel, but for me, I won't do any future boat building without this little honey at the ready.

As far as my LB22 project goes,I begin the day one of these two boats hit the water and we get any kind of good news from sea trials,not to put any pressure on the two of you or anything.

best regards,

Rob

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:13 am
by Dougster
Now we're gettin' it going. It's a dremel I need. I'm gonna give that some real thought. Spent a floppy night thinkin' about this mess and being mad at myself and the darn "EZ" fillet of silvertip. I never had such problems with the little 8' Devlin Dinghy learning project. Used the pumps, dumped in some wood flour, good cure every time. This "EZ" stuff, the first two batches I mix do this to me. I now think I should have mixed up the hardener first, maybe it settled in the carton. Dunno. Stick with Spoke and me, Rob, 'cuz by hook or by crook we're both determined. The LB22 is an unusual boat for Texas, but, as you know, she can win a guy over.

Gemme a Dremel Dougster

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:38 am
by Rob Eades
Doug,

Pick up Dremel #542 cutting/shaping wheel.It was expensive at about $15.00 but well worth it.I bought the knock off Black and Decker version of the Dremel,works just fine.

Rob

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:27 am
by gk108
No doubt about it. You need a well stocked arsenal of woodworking weapons for boatbuilding. Jacques tells us the minimum tool requirements to build a boat, but he never specified a maximum. I probably couldn't build a fence post without having a surform. They are really handy for shaving and trimming thickened epoxy as long as it's still green.

The dremel bit Rob mentions is also a very useful tool. After you use it a while, it will seem like the next best thing to whittling with a laser. #542 or the other way to find it...look for the single most expensive dremel bit in the rack. 8O

Good luck. I'm gigging tonight (not frogs), so I'll be spending my day messing around with a monitor amp rack and my night hoping it all works. :wink:

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:45 pm
by Spokaloo
Rob, get your plans and get crackin!

Dooooog-

Ill just throw out a different tool idea, for the sake of conversation. Your going to need a grinder (unless you REALLY like your orbital, to the point of running it to death) to do fast finish work on glass. A grinder with a 28 grit disk USED CAREFULLY will have you back down to wood in a matter of minutes over the whole bow. 28 doesn't clog, and its big enough to make short work of everything (including the screw heads, so be careful). Just a faster way, if you want it.

Fixed the broken butt yesterday, but its snowing like a pig outside, headed out in a bit to work.....

E

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:39 pm
by Dougster
Dremel with the 542 bit, surform, 28 grit, or can't get no grindin'. What kinda stuff you play GK? I beat on a Tele and sing in a foursome. Blues rock folk pop I don't really know what to call it. We haven't gigged in a year but talk about it :) Re the grindin', I'm about ready to buy a good quality sander and am giving serious thought to the Festool RO 125 with the mini vac. Silly expensive but I figure the less talent you got the better tool you need. Anybody used one of the Rotex Festools? Re the 'poxy mess, I haven't done anything yet. Tomorrow I'm off work at noon, gonna drop in at the ACE Hardware joint to look for a surform and then check out the Dremel thing at HD nearby. I do think I need to apply a little heat befor I get drastic though, just in case that helps. The silver dollar size spill piece I left in a warm car is no longer sticky and has firmed up pretty good. Maybe a little hope to go that way, sand down a bit and proceed, vs trying to get it all off. We'll see. Oh yeah, and Rob, what Spoke said, we'd have three going.

Tool shoppin' Dougster :)

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:25 pm
by Dougster
Here's a little update: I gotta scrape it all off. A little heat with a shop light and it won't set, it softens. Maybe a heat gun and putty knife? I don't have a heat gun but, well...that's why God made box stores. It sands but is a bit gummy, and with effort, I find I can dig a blade into some of it. Gotta come off. And in case anyone could possibly be a dumb as me, here's what I think caused it. I didn't stir up the hardener :oops: I just checked, the greenish honey consistency hardner I spooned up off the top is an inch deep. Solids below, unstirred :oops: Shows what happens when you use new material. I used standard epoxy/wood flour mix on my practise build but not this EZ stuff, and didn't know enough to stir it. Still, I know it quite well now and suspect I'll know it even better when I finally get the mess all scraped, dremelled, sanded, surformed, grinded, clawed, damn off. I will say I have learned many things by doing them wrong first and, while tedious, it does seem to work.

Recommend mixing the hardner Dougster

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:41 pm
by Dougster
New update, and happier news. As I said earlier, I finished work at noon today, so I dropped by a hardware store and settled on a surform, heat gun, and 1 1/2 " putty knife with ergometric handle (old Dougster appreciates ergo these days). The surform couldn't get where it needed, though it sure can handle what it gets to. But, happy days, the heat gun and putty knife are just the ticket. I put 3 hours in and finished more than half of it. I figure by noon tomorrow it'll be done. :D The heat softens it and the knife lets me get down in the seam and get it all out. Goes real well. It's a bit tedious and tiresome but, play some music and it moves along. I would have finished the whole job but it's happy hour and weekend. Of course I didn't quit because I was tired. And BTW, heat guns get, well, HOT 8O Cheers

He's not tired Dougster

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:58 pm
by Dougster
Newer update, with all the sticky 'poxy out:

Image

There's the pile, here's Nina:

Image

Image

It's like time travel, I just went back 2 weeks and get to start over. It built a lot of confidence. I mean, I can screw up pretty big, cus a minute, think a week, and fix it in a weekend. Well, at least this time. Thing is, I mixed up a little test batch of the "EZ" fillet, silvertips finest kind. After properly mixing the hardener. 36 hrs. later it is sticky too! Put one piece out in the sun today and it's no longer sticky. The other piece, left in the shop (60 degrees, 65% humidity), is still sticky and pliable. What is this? I'm about to call it "Cheesy" fillet. If I get home early enough tomorrow I'm gonna call the tech folks that make the stuff and ask what's going on. Jeez, just buy the marinepoxy and some wood flour next time.

Lookin' for the sweet spot Dougster

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:03 am
by Spokaloo
Congrats on getting that fixed!

E

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:08 pm
by Dougster
Thanks E, feels pretty good. I finished the tack weld and let go the straps and turnbuckles today. No sproing :D I do have a little sixteenth edge lip on the keel between station D and E or so and am tempted to heat gun off a bit of the weld and pull it back perfectly fair. Or it would not be too big a deal to fair with a bit of thickened up poxy. It is no more than 1/16", maybe less. I don't have much time in the next two weeks to work, but maybe I can squeeze in a little. I really look forward to finally getting the seams taped. Anyway, got the straps off that fine lady and she swelled up, eased up, and I almost heard her sigh. I don't think she likes girdles, and actually, I have a few bad memories of trying to deal with them from the other side many years ago, and agree (for other, selfish reasons).

But then that's another story Dougster

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:56 pm
by Spokaloo
I was hoping for photos today Doooog


I just put all my welds on today, but they are all interior.

Any photos?

Im glassing next week hopefully. Sposed to be 50s and 60s!


E

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:05 pm
by Dougster
Hey Eric, no pictures yet. I'm strapped for time and have company coming for a few days. I have a bit more work before I can tape the seams. I noticed the bottom panels were a bit uneven in some of the stern section (1/16") and it offended me so I spent 15 minutes with the heat gun and removed the welds there. That encouraged the area to float up so that there is a dip in the keel line. It seems very easy to fix, I can push it into place with my hands, so I'll lay a couple two by fours along side and, well you know the drill :) I didn't weld underneath quite enough but it looks like only an afternoon's fiddle. I'll get pictures up by Sunday.

Fooling along Dougster

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:08 pm
by Dougster
I got a weekend free and hoped to get to the taping. However, an unfair section at the chine kept bothering me. I spent some time with it and realized there was a 1/2" inboard dent in the chine. The cause was simple. Thankfully, due to Jacques and Shine's advice I removed all the screws save those in the bow area. Except, I neglected one screwing the side panel to station B. When my Rube Goldberg scheme pulled the bottom panels down like a roof, it made too much overhang on the port side (overhang that I cut off). I figured a half inch is a dang big blob of quick fair and couldn't live with leaving it. So last night I hatched a plan and today it worked well I think. I used more Rube Goldberg stuff (a board on the bottom panel, wire going through it and tensioned to the building form) to hold the bottom panel down and not let it raise up while I heat gun/putty knifed the epoxy for about the third time :oops: Happily, the side panel, when freed, assumed a pretty fair line to my eye. A batten bent over it matches up well. Here's some pictures:

Image

Image

You can see the gap where the side panel eased out to a more fair line. It actually looks a little better than the picture after I tweaked it some more. Pleased me mightily. Here's the keel, it seems ok, a straight edge laid along it doesn't show any hook or rocker.

Image

Maybe I can tape the seams next weekend. Jeez, I was starting to feel like Job with this, but I'm sure glad I made the effort today to redo the section that has been bothering me. I learned plenty and could do it again in a fraction of the time I think. No regrets though, each goof you recover from builds confidence and skills.

Letting the 'poxy cure Dougster

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:16 pm
by ks8
You'll be glassing soon! Looking good... :)

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:26 pm
by jayb01
Is the Daisy Red Ryder on the chair to protect you from Black Bart?

:D

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:43 am
by Dougster
Hah, I forgot that Red Rider was there. Bought it several years ago 'cuz, well, it's a Red Rider! Pulls left, but then so do I. The deal yesterday is my wife, an avid birder, came trotting out saying 5 cowbirds were hanging around the area. They sneak their eggs in other nests, the young hatch faster, and eat the natural guys out of house and home. Birders don't like 'em. I have a shotgun but only some buckshot shells around. So fired off some Red Rider rounds at those pesky Cowbirds. Pulled left I guess. Still, they thought me rude and left the area.

He's got a Red Rider Dougster
:D

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:50 am
by Spokaloo
Well you have a slightly fairer line than I do, because I have a 1 mm hooey Im going to have to fair out later in the keel line.


Nice work man!

E

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:39 pm
by Dougster
1mm? Heck I don't think they even sell reading glass good enough for me to notice that.

He don't mess with no millimeters Dougster

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:53 pm
by Rob Eades
Hey Doug,

Isn't that Archie Bunker's chair from All In the Family? :wink: not sure Archie could be trusted with the BB gun though.I've always been told that a man who builds a boat needs a place to "sit and think,and sit and drink",so it fits right in.

OT-for any birders in the crowd.Back in the late 70's my dad and I occasionally saw a pair of Ivorybills in a large,low swampy area in upstate SC.One day I actually was within 75 or so feet as one of the birds literally destroyed a dead 12'' tree.I was not at all suprised to hear they may still be around.I've been arguing with wildlife folks,on and off, for decades about what I saw.

tryin hard to stay on topic Rob :D

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:40 pm
by jayb01
P.S. You'll shoot your eye out.....



That's for us Christmas Story fans..

Image

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:43 pm
by Dougster
Pretty cool, Ivorybills 30 yrs ago. Why not now? Re: Archie's chair: Nah, like I say, I pull left :wink: Done some sittin'/thinkin'/drinkin' there though. I just got through pulling all screws, straps, wires, etc. and everything held together, so tomorrow I'm gonna hit it with the ROS a bit, then poxy in the bow, fair a bit with thickened epoxy around two of the slits in the bow, then ROS to round the chine, then tape, then, well, etc. Or at least it's pretty to think so.

Sittin' and thinkin' Dougster

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:43 am
by msujmccorm
Looking good. It won't be long before that chair gets very dusty.

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:59 pm
by Dougster
Well, maybe not too bad msu.....I just did 20 minutes with my new overpriced toy, the Festool RO150 with minivac. The only other sanding I've done is on the learning dinghy project last year using a cheapo Sears ROS. That was plenty dusty, but there was no discernable dust with the Festool/minivac combo. I guess there's gotta be some so I'll use a mask but wow, am I happy with it. Literally didn't see any dust. The dust thing was what pushed me into the buy, 'cuz all my music gear is in there too and, oh yeah, my lungs. I'll see what a couple hours with it is like but so far it sure looks good!

He's not dusty yet Dougster

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:41 pm
by Dougster
Ah well, finally I've taped the seams. Not so hard as I had feared. The biaxial tape is easier to work with than the stuff I used last year on the Devlin dinghy learning project. I have some pictures I coaxed from Nina. It seems Miss Nina has developed a bit of a sense of self of late, and was feeling rather, well, exposed. I assured her we are all boat Doctors here and all interest is purely clinical and professional. Reluctantly, she posed:

First I cut the tape and glass, as per good advice:

Image

Note the peanuts are for the gallery (watching with clinical and professional interest)

Next the glass:

Image

Image

Finally, her seams are taped:

Image

Image

It all cured up pretty well, with a few bubbles and bumps but not bad. I'm pleased with it. Next comes the glass. I had good luck with the tape using the 'poxy roller. First I soaked the seam down as best I could with poxy, then rolled on the tape and used the roller. Worked well when I could get lots of poxy on the ply, less well on vertical surfaces that wouldn't hold much poxy. Now I'm wondering how to do the glass. I had planned on putting it on dry ply and wetting it out, but now think maybe it's better to wet the ply good first, even though it makes it harder to shift the glass about as it's applied. How do you folks do it, wet or dry? Also, I'm gonna go a peel ply search to think about it. Any thoughts on if it saves its $$'s worth in fairing time? Anyway, I'm glad I got off the dime and taped her seams. It built some confidence and was a little fun really. Nina wants her dress on and that's next :)

He's not personalizing the boat Dougster

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:33 pm
by Spokaloo
Nice to see a little progress Doog.

Taping is cake, so is fabric.

I did mine dry because im working alone. If I had extra hands the wet method would have been my choice as you can save a gripload of time. Wetting out all that surface area took FOREVER the dry way, but it did turn out okay.

In one of the spots where I put clamps on to fix my broken butt joint I just covered the clamp with a piece of plastic sheeting. The underlying substrate, once it dried, looked so good it made me wish I could have bagged the whole boat. I dont know if peel ply will give you the same finish in sheet fashion, but Im probably gonna try vac bagging on my next boat, at least on some portion of it.

Keep up the good work, and you can always hit me up if you need something. Feel free to email me and I will shoot you my phone # if you need it.

E

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:55 pm
by Dougster
Hey Eric, good to see you back posting. I hope you're recovering well. I ordered the peel ply last wed. so maybe it'll be here in time for next weekend. For now it's just sand the rough places a little and think about the keel. I found a 12' white oak plank, that's 7 1/2" wide for $85 and one 9 1/2" wide for $110. Mahagony is more pricey here. My concern is that the white oak may not like the 'poxy that well---seems like I've read something negative about oak and epoxy. Any advice is sure welcome. Otherwise, I'll go with ply but wonder if it need be marine? Thanks for the help offer Eric, count on me to keep in touch :)

Wanting to put some 'glass on the bottom Dougster

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:10 pm
by Spokaloo
Call around a little on that chunk of wood.

VG fir was $75, oak was about the same price your talking about. Call a few lumber yards in the big cities, I bet you can find some phillipine mahogany (really justa fancy spanish cedar) for a much cheaper price. Also consider Purpleheart. Its generally cheaper than the oaks as well, and just a shade cheaper than the fir here. Imported from the south, so should be cheap. My board was 1"x8"x11', and if your going to do the original skeg your gonna need some more width than I had. Definitely be wary of plank warp too, I had some and had to clamp and manipulate the board a bit to make it work.

If your gonna do ply, go marine, use some of your scrap. Look at it this way: Your going to hit it on something. Period. When you do, its going to cause fractures in the glass and allow water in someday. Isnt it worth the insurance to have two laminated pieces of marine on the chance you dont notice the issue before it gets the wood wet?

As for now, Im going to sit here in this demerol haze Im developing and hope the neighbor calls to go fishing soon.

Hooked a 15 1/2" crappie a few days ago, and a 13" yesterday, maybe find a few more!
E

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:00 pm
by Dougster
My God what are Texas size crappie doing up in Washington? Good point on the ply--gotta be marine. Think I'll stick with a chunk of wood. I'll build Jacquess keel, which is 8 1/4" at it's biggest, and was wondering if the 7 1/2" would be "close enough". Guess your right, I'll call around. I don't know my purple heart from my purple haze (well, that's not quite true 8)) but a few calls are surely worth it. Hate to beat up a hundred dollar bill and just get a keel, but will if need be. If the white oak is the best I can do, what do you think about epoxy sticking to it well? I saw your post on the interior glass, whether to piece it together or get more. Sure is nice having you ahead of me and getting the answers first :) Gonna be hard for me to catch up, although come summer I only work one day a week so I'll be out of excuses then.

Needs a big chunk of wood Dougster

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:49 pm
by TomW
Dougster, white oak when properly used is one of the hardest, most useful woods used in boat building(OLD IRONSIDES). Having used a lot of oak I don't know why epoxy would not stick to it, all my other glues do. Sand it with 80 grit and go with it. Make sure the grain is straight, and the color is the same throughout, ie. heart grain, same with any wood, you do not want it twisting on you, the advantage of using plywood with a fiberglass cover.

Tom

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:00 pm
by Dougster
Ah, thanks Tom. I didn't check the piece out I was quoted. I will tomorrow, as I work that morning right by the yard (odd coincidence). If it's straight, seems ok to me. Otherwise, I would go ply, but that's a 4 hr. one way drive to Houston on my day off :( (i.e. not gonna happen probably). Anyway, one issue is the 7 1/2" vs 9 1/2" when Jacque wants a big boy eight and a quarter inches. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll go with Jacque.. Thirty bucks one way or the other doesn't really mean much I guess.

Purple Haze or Purple Heart; feelin' it Dougster

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:58 am
by Oceola
Dougster,
I looked at the profile view of the LB-22. Looks like the keel/skeg tapers from 0" forward to the 9 1/2" at the transom. Couldn't you take the cut off piece forward, turn it around and epoxy glue it on top of the back end of the keel to give you enough height. Oak keels on large old plank and frame boats were usually built up of many layers this way but they were through bolted as well as glued.
As for using Oak for an epoxy covered keel, I don't know. Tom is right, the wood is hard and takes regular glues well, but I'm not sure about epoxy.

For what it's worth. In Devlin's book, Devlins Boat Building, he Writes: "Oak. ...is medium to heavy in weight, has high strength, and is potentially durable--though sometimes I have seen this wood rot with frightening speed....(reason given...when it was harvested) ....The glueability of white oak has been questioned, but I have never had any trouble. As with teak, it's best to wipe down white oak with acetone and a clean rag before gluing".

Frank

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:25 am
by Dougster
Oceola--thanks for the input. I believe you quoted the passage I was "mis-rembering"! Fine example of a little knowledge being worse than none. I should have thought to check my Devlin book which is well thumbed. And I don't know why I didn't realize layering up a bit of the cut off would be fine to get the specified width at the stern. I'll check out the 7 1/2" width piece at lunch today to see if it's straight--don't want to deal with any warp or cup. I could always drive to Houston (3 hours) and pick up a sheet of ply, and be sure of straight, no cup, no warp. Maybe get some good Bar-BQ on the way back :)

Likes his 'Q Dougster

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:24 am
by Spokaloo
Huh, as I was reading I was going to suggest cutting the taper and adding it for depth... covered.

Oak as a building wood... too slow.

Don't you have some 9mm scrap from your frames Doug? Itd be pretty easy to laminate up a 12' x10" blank out of 2 layers.

From Greg Rossel's BUILDING SMALL BOATS:

"White oak-- a top notch boatbuilding wood. Heavy rugged, takes fastenings well...

For all purposes white oak should be well seasoned, as it shrinks a good deal in the drying process...

White oak has a closed cell structure that inhibits teh intrusion of rot-promoting fresh water. It does not glue particularly well, esp with epoxy.

A good choice for backbone members: stem, keel and deadwood."

I know many people who have successfully glued white oak, and there are anectodes of it not sticking so well.

Curious to see how it works....

E

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:46 pm
by TomW
Dougster, one thought I had also, is in older days keels like this were screwed to the boat for strength. Have you given any thoughts of doing this from inside or does the lamination schedule prohibit this. Maybe Jacque can give an insight, I know he does not like screws in other parts of his boats.

Tom

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:12 pm
by Oceola
Huh, as I was reading this I remembered Jacques does not like screws in his boats...
covered.

If the oak is "dry", (ask) is straight, has the grain orientated so it won't warp in the future and you decide to use it, could you use dowels epoxied in from the inside, say every foot or so???

Frank

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:19 pm
by jacquesmm
Check the Gougeon book (WEST system epoxies), they say not to use oak because it is the only wood that has compatibility problems with epoxy.
As for screws, why since epoxy bonds better than any screw?

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:29 pm
by TomW
Jacque, just went through the West System Manual. This was in there Special Preparations for Various Materials section.

Hardwoods - sand with 80 grit sandpaper.

Teak/oily woods - wipe with acetone 15 minutes before coating.

There is nothing more in this section mentioning oak. :?

I could find nothing in the System 3, The Epoxy Book.

Tom

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:56 pm
by Cracker Larry
I tried some oak runners on my GF16 and had a terrible time with it out-gassing. I'm got kidding, it blew bubbles in epoxy like crabs in a bucket. I had to re-sand and re-seal about 10 times and it was still blowing bubbles. I put a strip of 6" biax down each runner and it bubbled through that :help: I wanted to use it because it is tough, but I won't be using it again with epoxy.

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:59 pm
by jacquesmm
Maybe it was not in the book but in their technical bulletins. I am certain that there was a problem with oak but can't remember if it was with white or red oak.
I keep it simple and use fir, pine, whatever I find locally.

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:02 pm
by mecreature
jacquesmm wrote:Maybe it was not in the book but in their technical bulletins. I am certain that there was a problem with oak but can't remember if it was with white or red oak.
I keep it simple and use fir, pine, whatever I find locally.
I have read in other places that both oaks have this problem.. Red more then white. Alot of people dismiss Oak just because of weight alone from what I gather..

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:22 pm
by Spokaloo
White has the oily characteristics, but is a solid boatbuilding wood (traditional methods, bolted, red lead, the whole bit). Red is not only oily, but it has a porosity that you wouldn't believe. Its basically like a big bundle of pipettes. If you have ever torn apart a cat-tail and seen how porous the stocks are, you get the idea. Conversely, Red Oak is a notoriously good paint absorber.

E

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:28 pm
by TomW
You know we should have had him(since he likes his Que so much) just find a nice big peice of mesquite and then he could smoke his boat when he was ready to celebrate. :lol: Love my Que to Dougster

Tom

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:59 pm
by Dougster
Well guys, our local live oak makes real fine 'Q, but you'll not get 12 straight feet! And forget about mesquite, though it's beautiful, weird, twisty stuff. I checked the piece out today at lunch. Very fine plank, tight, straight grain with no run out. No cup, no warp, and I told the guy to hold it for me. However, there are clearly a few question marks about how it will take epoxy, and I can make my own problems thank you. So I'm beginning to lean toward ply. It seems to me if I use any plank it needs rot resistance. I'll scrape against oyster reefs for sure and stratches will let in water, etc.
I don't think I have enough scrap marine ply to make it, but can get it in Houston (3 hrs. and the 'Q). Any cons to using ply sheathed in glass? I'd like to put a stainless steel bar down it too. I mean I will find those reefs. I hit one going about 20 knts. with a friend of mine on board in my old bay snot boat. Knocked the whey out of both of us, kicked up the outboard and boy did it scream! You get to grabbin' at that key to shut it off right quick I will say. Took us ten minutes to groan and moan, then twenty to push/pull/twist/beg her off that reef. It was a 4 ibuprofen day. So, like I say, I'll find a reef (hopefully not at speed though 8O ) Ply?

Workin' it out Dougster

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:27 pm
by MadRus
See ks8's response in this thread about scabbing on a shoe of ipe or some other exotic tough stuff... it's a good idea, might work for you.

http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?p=101029#101029

that, a couple layers of biax and a few coats of graphite?

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:51 am
by Doug
Kevlar
I put some kevlar on top of a mahogany skeg and shell doesn't even phase it. Scrapes the epoxy some but does not get thru the kevlar and I've hit plenty. Find some unidirectional tape and put on a lot of layers.

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:55 am
by Dougster
Hey Doug, I'm dim on this still. Do you mean unidirectional tape that is Kevlar, or glass tape for the sides of the skeg and Kevlar for the bottom? I'm realizing if I use ply I may not like screwing stainless steel band into the bottom (that would be plywood edge and not like screws). Jacques mentioned fir or pine, whatever is available, but they are not rot resistant right? Is the thinking encapsulate it so well with glass/kevlar that water can't realistically get to it? Thanks to everyone for chiming in, which helps me big time in the process of deciding. Madrus--I forgot about ipe. Oddly enough I have some that was left over from my house builder, who used it on two exposed wood steps. Five years later they are like iron. I used a bit on the skeg of the little Devlin Dinghy learning project in fact---ripped 1/2' pieces to fit, rubbed them with acetone, and glued with epoxy. I wish I could trust epoxy on that white oak. It's a fine, beautifully straight, no grain run out piece of wood, but....

Got too many choices Dougster

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:20 am
by Spokaloo
Doug, one of your namesakes is a great boatbuilding wood also. Doug Fir is a hard, rot resistant wood that can be had with tight knots and still be very good wood. Clear is more expensive, but worth the coin.

Ipe is a pretty decent choice.

Longleaf pine/yellow pine (not common white like we have up here). Strong, resinous and durable according to Rossel.

Its all about encapsulating....

E

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:34 pm
by jaygee
just 2 cents

White oak is not reliable unless you KNOW it`s reliable. When it`s bad it`s worse than softwoods.

Goodluck

jaygee

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:20 pm
by Dougster
No progress on the skeg yet--lumber yards closed friday and I was busy all week. Yesterday was the wife's birthday, but today I did glass the transom. I think I used way too much 'poxy: nearly 32 ozs. of resin (plus half that of hardener of course). Seems like a lot. It's hard for me to know when I've got enough on, so I keep on adding. Also I have a harder time with near vertical surface. Used chip brush, squeegee, and roller. My peel ply came friday so I tried a piece of it and found it very easy. The squeegee worked a trick and it soaked up some of the 'poxy. Also it seemed easy to smooth and chase out any bubbles. I'm thinking peel ply is a good idea for the beginner. It was only $50 for a 25 yard roll that's 60" wide. Thin stuff though, and I hope it peels off ok. Anybody know how long to wait? I used Silvertip Epoxy, slow hardener, and it's 80 degrees in the shop.

Dunno how well I did Dougster

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:12 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, you want it green when you pull it off.

Hard to the touch, but still just "dentable" slightly with your thumbnail. It needs to be about 80+% set before you can peel. Dont let it cure or itll be harder to get off.

32 oz of resin does seem a bit excessive. Are you using a laminate roller to press the fabric to the hull? Or just the squeege? How much waste is coming off of your squeege?

Curious, thats some epoxy.

I have the guts in mine, gonna fillet and glass everyone in place tomorrow.

E

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:14 pm
by Dougster
Wow, thanks a bunch Eric. I just read your post and went trotting down to Nina for a bit of wrestling match to get it off 8O Looks good and smooth though, but my God, too much epoxy used I know. Yeah, I used a laminate roller. And a squeegee. And a chip brush. I'd pour a blop on the chip brush and try to spread it, but it didn't seem to spread that well with the brush. Pouring was harder since its near vertical. I dunno, but don't want to use that much on the whole hull---too heavy. Anyway, it's a start. And thanks again, I'd have waited 'till morning!

Fumbling along Dougster

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:44 pm
by Spokaloo
Heres a way thats a little more efficient:

Take your squeege in your dominant hand (im right handed, so my right) and your 12 oz pot of epoxy in your other hand. Pour gently at the edge of the chine on top at first. Pull the epoxy over the edge. When the epoxy is running across the vertical surface, pull it whatever direction you want it to go. I usually use a horizontal pattern. When pulling it, use a low angle and moderate pressure. You are laying a layer of epoxy AND pressing it through the weave at the same time. It takes a little practice, and you will get your fingers or thumb wet, whichever is the closer to the boat. As you work your way down, just pour epoxy where you have wet out above, and pull it down to the dry areas. It drips a little, but its the most efficient way I have figured out. Use of the brush tends to slob on thick spots in some areas, and thin in others. The squeege is more uniform and I tend to use less epoxy.

Dont forget to take a file to the edgs of your squeege (if its plastic) or sandpaper to knock any burrs off. Smooth squeeges dont pull dry glass.

Anything else?

E

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:57 pm
by Dougster
Dang it how do you spell "squeege"? Anyway, more thanks, the dripping on your dominant hand (I'd be a leftie, all the way), is helpful, believe it or not. I was too timid. One question is your question on the previous post: "How much waste is coming off of your squeege?" I don't get that. Am I supposed to be getting off extra 'poxy and sopping it off for throw away or something? Surely not. Anyway, next question is filling in the weave. 'Course I don't get that now cuz I don't think there's much weave left to fill in. Just leave it? I will say it looks pretty good in terms of smooth. Again, I owe you, 'cuz tomorrow that peel ply would have been a bitch. And me dressed for work, dealing with it. BTW, man your Nina is looking good! You're leaving me in the dust, but in 4 weeks I go to summer mode: no work but one day a week! Sure hope to kick it up, but doubt I'll ever catch you!

Appreciating you tomorrow while drinkin' his morning coffee & not fighting peel ply Dougster

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:46 am
by Spokaloo
Sometimes Im really clear in my head but might not be so entirely readable on here....

On the waste, when Im laying up, I spread everything until the last area, where I scrape the excess off into a cup. Thats what I meant by waste.

The filling of the weave I should clarify also. Here is a more step by step version:

Lay fabric out
Pour on chine
pull down to side
spread with blade at low angle which fills the weave.
Roll with laminate roller to press fabric down to wood and properly saturate
scrape excess off with blade and pull into dry areas or edges to saturate larger area
re-roll areas appearing to need it, or quick once-over of entire area
scrape excess again.

Should look like this when your done:

Image

Note the dry appearance of the top, with ZERO bubbles or light spots, and uniformity. Thats the target appearance (I had to shoot that photo of the only area that turned out that good............)

E

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:08 pm
by tech_support
For wetting out wide cloth on (near) vertical surfaces, I like to pour the epoxy at the top, let it run to the bottom where I catch it with the squeegee and drag it back to the top...

This is 17 oz Biax with marinepoxy, I think we did 4 layers one after another....

ImageImage[/img]

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:45 pm
by Spokaloo
Holy hell man! Are you covered in epoxy? Or was it just really hot out that day?

Similar technique, we all do it a little different though eh?

E

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:12 pm
by tech_support
That is south florida in the Fall :D

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:38 pm
by Dougster
South Florida and South Texas relate: hot and humid. Thanks for the tips and pics. Everything helps. Re: 32 ozs of resin, it was really 32 single "pumps", which I now notice is more like 27 or so ozs. A little better I guess. I can see the weave a bit, but it'd like to do better. It's hard not to use too much, 'cuz I found out what happened when you don't adequately "fill the weave" during my little dinghy learning project. Half saturated cloth cures and is a mess. Wish I could spend a day helping anyone else who has experience. Anyway, the transom looks pretty good so this weekend I'll start glassing the panels.

Wanting to get that glass on Dougster

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:43 pm
by Spokaloo
Get crackin!

Got half of mine filleted, gotta tape it tomorrow and finish the fillets out back.

E

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:42 am
by tech_support
Dougster wrote: 32 ozs of resin, it was really 32 single "pumps", which I now notice is more like 27 or so ozs.
You are hitting on one of the troubles with pumps. After a couple pumps, a vacuum builds in the bottle making it more diffucult for the pumps to pick up exactly 1 oz.

For anything over, say, 6 oz. - take out the pumps :) Or just pour from some new bottles

For big laminations use a quart pot and pour you resin and hardener. It will take 30 seconds to pour a 18 oz batch - your also will not loose count :wink: which is easy to to when pumping more than a few times

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:56 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Joel. I used 6 oz. measures of resin in cups with graduated markings. That way I could check each cup to see its level. I pre-measured two cups in advance (as per an earlier tip of yours I think) which was a great idea except I needed 5 batches! Anyway, the first two went very well 'cuz I just had to hit 3 pumps of hardener in them and stir. But I think for the big panels this weekend 6 oz. batches of resin is too timid. So I'm thinking make about making nine 8 oz batches of resin, all premeasured. Then either hit each one as I use it with 4 pumps of hardener or maybe go ahead and premeasure the hardener too (but it's thick and has to be poured and scraped carefully to get all the good out). Either way I guess, but your tip about premeasuring and pouring is the way to go I'm sure. My transom is hard and pretty darn smooth (thanks to peel ply maybe), but I bet it's got maybe double the resin on it you would have needed. I'll be trying to work leaner next time, but sure don't want to be too timid. Thanks a bunch for stickin'with me.

Gonna get glass on Nina Dougster

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 12:36 am
by Spokaloo
Just for info I was batching about 12-16 oz depending on the panel, medium hardener, 60 degrees ambient temps.

E

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:50 am
by Dougster
Ok, after I posted I re-read Joel's post and saw his 18 oz comment. I'll kick mine up to 12oz resin and 6 hardener, both premeasured. Slow hardener, upper 70's.

Gearing up Dougster

Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:17 pm
by Dougster
Well, I got one bottom panel glassed but pictures will have to be later. It's a bit of a push for a first time solo builder, but it was done in about 3 hrs. Then, I tried to put on the darn peel ply and of course I couldn't manage such a big sheet and ended up with wrinkles in the peel ply. Well, so what I figured and rolled/sqeegeed it down. Several hours later, when it's still just a bit tacky I go to take off the peel ply and it's a wrestling match. I'm not wearing gloves, cussing the stuff, and finding out each wrinke left a little depression (opposite of what you'd think). I guess the 'poxy leaches up a bit where it is pressed against the peel ply and the wrinkle (bubble) wasn't touching. So that's gotta be sanded out and what did I accomplish with the stuff? It's not markedly uneven and I guess an hour with the sander will touch it up. Still, it was irritating. Oh yeah, and wrestling with that peel ply, which was rough from the 'poxy scraped up my knuckles a bit. Of course a tough guy like me doesn't notice pain much, so when I do realize my hands are sticky and think to wash off the sticky poxy residue I grab the vinegar bottle. 8O Well, vinegar on scraped knuckles got my attention and I finished ripping off the peel ply with gloves! Walked up to the house, shower, happy hour.

Learnin' stuff the hard way Dougster

Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:31 pm
by Spokaloo
Congrats! Now the next panel will be a little easier.

Are you putting the glass down, then the epoxy, then the peel ply? Never done it, but curious.

Itd be interesting to lay the fabric on the other panel without the peel ply, and do a compare/contrast with them side by side.

Keep it up! Get that other panel down tomorrow!

E

Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:36 pm
by robbiro
Dougster,
I am learning much from the build you are doing. I am just about to flip my GF-16 over and do the bottom in the next two or three weeks, depending on unannounced tee-ball games and extra hours at work. I have learned as much from reading the posts of those who do things like I do,(Grace could be my middle name, if you know what I mean!!)
Thanks for the heads up on the peel ply and how it may be a bother to work with before I use it. I will, but I will try to line up an extra pair of hands before I start applying it.
Your build is looking good and I hope that it continues going well.
Keep on Buildin'

Robbie

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 9:58 am
by Dougster
Eric---Yeah, like you said: put down the glass, then the poxy, then peel ply. My new idea is to put the peel ply on in manageable pieces, each overlapping a bit. It soaks down into the poxy so I don't think the overlaps would be any problem. That would make peeling it off easier too. I checked things out this morning and was happy to find it all set up hard, and the wrinkles are less a problem than they first appeared. It's like the wrinkles are really rough areas surrounded by the very smooth poxy where the peel ply made good contact. I'm thinking the wrinkles are what the whole thing would have been without the peel ply: rough.

Robbiro---"Grace would be my middle name..." My that resonates with me. I've been struggling with a name for the boat other than Nina, which I like. Maybe....Grace?

Taped up, vinegared, skint knuckles Dougster

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:12 pm
by Dougster
Got the second bottom panel fiberglassed. It didn't go much faster but came out better I think. Cutting the peel ply into manageble sections was much better. Here's a picture of the first bottom panels with the "wrinkles" fromthe peel ply:

Image

Now here's the second panel:

Image

I'm pretty happy with it. Here's a picture of a "dry fit", with the glass and a piece of peel ply on:

Image

That piece of peel ply was 60" wide. I could work with it and get most of the wrinkles/bubbles out that way. It does pay to get everything prepped and ready before you start. I especially liked Joel's tip about pre -pouring the resin. I set up six cups of 12 oz batches of resin. Ended up using almost 8. With them pre-poured I only had to pour 6 ozs of hardener in a cup appropriately labeled. Took seconds and there was little chance for confusion. I tried to make myself stir each batch for 90 seconds by my watch. It's a nuisance but who wants a bad batch. This was a hurdle for me and I'm relieved. Side panels next weekend. They'll be harder I fear 'cuz of the vertical sides, but I got better with the squeegee and used it far more than the roller.

Glad to get some glass on Dougster :)

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:13 pm
by gk108
Isn't it fun to measure your progress by rolls of cloth and buckets of resin?
:D

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:30 am
by Spokaloo
Looks good Doug. You have some fairing to play with on that first panel, but it will be great in the end.

An ounce of preparation.....

Keep it up!

Im starting fairing. Got the first coat on today. No time to blog, had to go catch 3 crappie and a perch tonight at sunset.

E

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:19 pm
by Dougster
Gosh you've flipped back over and moved on to fairing. You're the Spokaloo Rocket Man. I'm like playing in the dirt here or something. Well, maybe it's the turtle and the hare :) Anyway. I'll slip in one of my million dumb questions here. By "first coat on" are you talking about "high build primer" (I read these things and so put them in quotes, not wanting to appear like I'm acting like I know something)? Or Quick Fair? I guess if you used Quick Fair it's first, then the "high build", then "guide coat"? Ah well. And another dumb question: where is the darn water line? I can't find it in the plans. Gotta be above the BL, but where?

Ok, enough dumb questions. I sure look forward to seeing pics of her with the motor well cut out, as I don't visualize that too well. BTW, hope we get some feedback on the graphite bottom/late afternoon sun thing. I've been thinking about making a test scrap and setting it outside in good old Texas summer sun. That'd tell the story. Good on you Eric.

Likes a good story Dougster

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:53 pm
by Spokaloo
So the fairing is going like this:

Laid a coat of phenolic balloons/silica blend down on the weave. Didnt do the hottest job, but its a start. Filled the tape last night when we got back from fishing. Still doesn't look good. Gonna get after it with the quickfair tomorrow after work to see if I can get the boat smooth. Then comes the primers.

Im a little nervous about the well, but its gotta be done eventually, right?

E

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 5:27 pm
by WobblyLegs
Dougster wrote:You're the Spokaloo Rocket Man.
That's no exaggeration... :lol: :lol:

Dougster, looking very fine indeed!

Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:06 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Wobbly, and for sure Spoke's got a rocket in his pocket! But, yeah, cuttin' out that well's gonna make us both swallow hard a few times. Eric, I'm thinkin' measure twice and don't cut nothin'. Go to bed and measure again the next day. But, yeah, like you say, in the end, we gotta cut it 8O

Need to get back to glassing Dougster

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 9:52 pm
by Dougster
Well, big thing for me, but in the grand scope not much I guess. Anyway, I finished glassing the side panels. I blew off the squeegee and went with a 6" HD roller (little short napped pink things). Vertical surfaces don't work for me with the pour and spread thing. The roller was great---no problems and my first big hump is done: the whole bottom is glassed. Bigger than that, my big fear of 'glass is is whipped too. I had hoped to get this far befor my summer break (I'm self employed and don't work much in the summer these days). I beat it by one week: one more work week and then summer :)

Next is the skeg. I located some 12 foot 1" by 8" Douglas Fir. The yard says if I donate $6.75 a board foot they'll give it to me. If it's straight, no twist or cup, would it be a good choice? If so I'll grab it this friday.

Got a glass bottom Dougster

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 1:18 am
by TomW
Go for it Dougster, almost to good to be true. Congrats on getting her glassed, one more step forward.

Tom

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:32 am
by WobblyLegs
Dougster wrote:Well, big thing for me, but in the grand scope not much I guess.
No, probably a big thing for all of us, I know it was for me.

I think the only task I've found nearly, but not quite, as daunting was painting the hull.
Dougster wrote:Got a glass bottom Dougster
Feels good, doesn't it? I bet you just stood back and looked at it for ages! I did when I glassed my boat.

Well done.

Tim.

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:53 pm
by Spokaloo
Congrats man!

Just got back from Utah, glad to see you got the glass down.

Now that I work more days than you do, we have ourselves a horse race to the first NINA completed!

E

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 9:58 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for the support guys. And hey 'legs, I'm skeered of the painting too 8O Nah, nevermind, I never said it! Looking at your build pics makes me want to go get a hat and hold it my hand. Beautiful work. Also, hello rocket man from Spokane land. You been quite. Yeah, this friday is my last day of full work week till the end of August. I got lots of time coming, but that rocket you got is pretty hot. You ok with Douglas Fir for my skeg? I'm likin' it's name :)

Poor old havin' to chase a rocket Dougster

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:09 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug fir is historically appropriate, a good solid wood species, durable, rot resistant, workable, and renewable. Its a common wood here (growing up to 300' tall in some places), very abundant, healthy for the environment to use, and will take glues very well.

Perfect!

Oh and the easy way to tell a doug fir in the woods is to grab one of the cones. Each little scale of the cone will have a seed. This seed looks like a mouse's butt and tail trying to crawl under the next scale.

Pointless knowledge from Eric!

E

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:52 pm
by Dougster
Well I been puttering along with the skeg. It needed some scribing to fit the keel line since the bottom panel edges were't quite on the frames. (They were hard to bend into the full camber). Less than 1/2" but I seemed to be chasing my tail for about 4 hours yesterday. Here's some pics. First the skeq on the table with asundry block plane, wood shavings, and gloves:

Image

I actually broke down and sharpened the iron on the Stanley plane about 1 hour into the thing. That's a big step for me so I must of been serious. At day's end I had this:

Image

Doesn't look too bad but you can see the bow section is proud of the hull. This close up shows it way too proud for good 'nuff:

Image

I took a break and went after it again today. No new pics, but now, 3 more hours of fiddle and it's in the 'good nuff stage. Next I'm gonna round the aft corner of it and then it's time to glue. Not sure how to clamp it, probably with straps. I'll fuss with it 'cuz I would like a straight keel, after all. Lord it's taking a long time to bake this cake Eric! BTW, I'll recheck your blog's "tutorial" on the skeg cake thing before I start tomorrow. That's a nice record you're keeping.

Fussin' with it like an old lady Dougster

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:38 pm
by Daniel Huckleberry
Hey Dougster

It looks really good. You might consider just gluing it in place then glassing after it tacks. You could clean and sand the surround and underlying surface. Then, re-place the keel and mark the location with a pencil. Take the keel up and thicken some epoxy, lay a bead of it and set the keel (coated with epoxy, of course) into it. Wait an hour or two and then fillet and glass.

THe $.02 of Huck

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:12 am
by maxgsx
Dougster,

I think you gave yourself more work than needed by starting way too early with the plane. 8O

I would just get a little block as high as your gap, run a pencil along the length of the skeg then cut off the excess with a handsaw. If you are bedding it on epoxy, the fit wonรขโ‚ฌโ„ขt need to be that great.

Congrats on the boat she is going to be big and beautiful.

Regards

Max

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:30 am
by Dougster
Yeah, I was timid with the saw and feel secure with the plane. But Jeez. Any way it's looking "good 'nuff" now. I want to round the edges of the keel's bottom just a bit then I do plan to go the way you mention Huck. Glue first, let it set, then fillet and tape. Think I should glass it completely? It's 8 1/2" at the tallest point so the tape will come up nearly half way there and all the way on the forward half of it. One piece of tape or two offsett? Anyway, God bless my little block plane, and the radio (I pick up a nice Austin station). They played a lot of Neil Young yesterday and the time flowed by. Still, maybe I'll take your advice Max and use the handsaw next time...

Thankin' you guys for chiming in Dougster

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:26 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Dougster

I've never had plans for a boat with a full keel like that so the lamination schedule will have to come from the powers that be. I will point out that this piece could suppport nearly the entire weight of the boat in case of a grounding. If it were mine, I would double tape it and glass it.


Huck

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:24 pm
by Spokaloo
Doog, I think its actually lined out in the lamination schedule, so go look at your plans. Mine is a single layer, but its able to support the weight of the boat with all the frames in just fine. Nice meaty fillets, and the aforementioned glue down, then fillet and tape method worked for me. On the blog I have a photo or two of the jig I made using the rafters to hold it straight, fair, and aligned.

Lookin good man, you gonna fair it now or do it after you put the frames in like I am?

E

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:29 pm
by Dougster
Well she's finally flipped over :) Five friends and myself had a bit of a struggle, but all came out well in the end. And my God she seems huge! I mean, it's daunting. Here she is with keel being glued up, then the flip.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Well, so now I need to 1) level her and 2) Shore her up 'cuz she's pretty fragile to be walking around in to work. Regarding leveling her, I'm not sure how! I guess when I dry fit the stringers and frames I could use the stringers for a level, since the sole fits on them and I assume that's supposed to be level? I amaze myself how little I know! Still, sure feels good to have her turned. She's pretty straight, though there is a scant 1/2" difference in the two stern to bow diagonals. Sure looks straight though.

Feeling relieved and inspired Dougster

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:06 pm
by Spokaloo
Congrats Douggler!

those photos look awfully familiar. How many times did you look at my photos before you went out to flip her?

Leveling only requires the sides being level to the floor, but it will all be self-evident when you put the framing back in it and have a look. I had some funny gaps here and there, but it all works out in the end.

Be sure to brace up the spot where you will be stepping in and out of the boat every day. You can end up with a little hooey in the wood from stepping in and out every 5 minutes getting batches of epoxy.

I like the as-designed skeg on there, looks like itll track like a freight train.

When you put all your interior goodies in for the first test fit, pull your tape over the boat and have someone grab the bow and move it around a little. You will find the sweet spot to get it equal on both sides. Do it now, once you put your frames in it, itll be stiff as a board.

Looks good!

E

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:14 pm
by gk108
Nobody even broke a sweat. That guy in the red shirt looks a little nervous, though. :D
Looks good. Long and kinda elegant looking hull shape in the daylight. Room for lotsa lobsters.

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:48 am
by WobblyLegs
Well done on the flip!
Dougster wrote:Regarding leveling her, I'm not sure how!
You could use the diagonal string method, I think I got it from "StickyStuff"...

Tap a little nail in the same location at each top corner of the transom. Another little nail, maybe two thirds of the way towards the front of the boat, in the top of the side, and another one on the opposite side, exactly the same distance from the transom.

Tie a piece of string to port transom nail, flush with wood. Run it diagonally across and hook it 'round starboard side nail, across to and around port side nail, and back down to starboard transom nail, pull tight and tie off.

Level (and twist if necessary) the boat so that the the string just touches where it crosses in the middle of the boat.

Like this...

Image


...and you should end up with a level, squared-up hull.

Enjoy doing the inside!

Tim.

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:07 am
by Dougster
Hey that string thing sounds a little fun, I think I'll try it. I'm not sure she's at all twisted, cuz it could be that back false transom is cocked a tiny bit. The diagonals from the bow to the aft side panel seams on both sides are ok. but that was a quick look. I took yesterday off except for cleaning up a bit. If she's off it's only a smidge so I'll just fiddle with it. First thing I'll try the string idea. And gk, oh no I wasn't nervous, just straining to hold my water :D Truth is I tossed and turned the night before and woke up early, feeling jumpy. It went well but we struggled: no hand holds. She'll be heavier next turn but way less fragile, and I'll put in bracing with places to grab hold of. And get more guys. Try and get the guy living next door to me. He rodeos on the weekends and is gone a lot, but, since I saw him digging fence holes with an old fashioned post hold digger in July in the Texas rocky hill country, I figure he could pick her up himself 8O BTW Spoke, I did memorize your pictures. Trouble was, me and my guys were on the other side of middle age from you guys :) Gonna fire up my smoker and do some chicken today, while fussing around with leveling and blocking up the hull more securely.

Just tryin' to hold his water Dougster

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:47 pm
by Dougster
Here's pics a week old, showing the stations in the boat. I did the dry fit to check things out.

Image

Notice the sheer is about 1.5 inches wider than the stations. Otherwise, looks pretty good. It's difficult to take pictures in the small space. Here's the bowand mid section blocked up.

Image


Image

Gonna be tough to glass the bow section since I gotta get in the boat and it's hard to wedge up there, but, well somehow. First gotta fillet and tape. When I put in the frames, what do folks think. Pull the sheer up to them and glue or put on the rubrail first, then pull the sheer up to the frames?

Tryin' to think it through Dougster

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:32 am
by Spokaloo
Douggler, its lookin pretty snazzy.

When I tried to true up the gaps in the sides, I applied my pressure to the chines. Putting the leverage there caused the lines to remain fair, without bumps or hollows, while pulling the sides up tight(ish) to the frames. I only pulled them up to the 1/4" gap that filler can adequately bridge.

Did the rubrails later, as you know. It seemed to work out just hunky-dory, and made a nice fair set of curves.

E

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:11 pm
by Dougster
Well Jeez, all this time and it's embarassing. All I got is tape on the Keel seam:

Image

Took me so long. Spent a week figuring out how to shore her up so I could move around in her without splitting her gills. How'd I spend a week on that? Well I sit around and do other things a lot I guess. Then had to dry fit the stringers and stations. Took too long. Then take 'em out and sand the mess inside: old glass tabs, blown out screw holes, leaked 'poxy from old battles, etc. Then gotta fill the screw holes with syringe and unthickend 'poxy. Next day, they're still empty again. Refill with thickened epoxy. Next day sand that mess a bit. Every job in the hull is hard. Squat, kneel, ease around cuz she's so shakey. Jeez. Then finally commit to tape. Four hours of struggle (1/2 hr. for the rest of you guys). Can't move around good up in the bow, hell can't move around at all. Well.... chine seams next, cake I'm sure. Then glass 8O I like your way Eric---both pieces at one time. Hell of a job and better once than twice. Jeez. What do you do, lay both pieces flat, start standing/laying/kneeling/praying on 'em dry at the bow and work back? "Paint yourself into a corner" and then bail? The whole thing makes for a fine happy hour.

Feelin' fine just gimme the damn ibuprofen Dougster

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:19 pm
by Cracker Larry
ROFLMAO :!: :D You'll get there :D

I find that plenty of beer, marijuana and brown whiskey gets me through the rough parts.

Sorry Pastor Bob.

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:20 pm
by Cracker Larry
Nice looking keel seam, BTW :!:

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:28 pm
by Dougster
Ah brown whiskey, there you go. Makes me think of summer and easy times. And a girl i knew a long time ago....

Thinkin' he's said enough Dougster

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:25 am
by Spokaloo
Progress is progress, regardless how slow or fast. Pecking away at little projects and making sure everything is square/straight/not &*(%ed up is most important. A hasty project can bite you later on (as a few have to me).

That laying down of glass in the bottom is a peach. Its not easy, but you can do it if given the right circumstances.

First things first. Get that interior prepped perfectly.

Lay out your two sheets, and get them trimmed up. Lay the lines exactly how you want them.

When it comes time to lay it up here is what I did, take it for what its worth:

Lotsa epoxy in the bow, the area where the two sheets overlap in the bow SUCKS to put down, you will get some fraying of the weave, and it takes a serious amount of epoxy to stick it to the boat. Masking tape is your friend to hold things in place. Work from the bow back to the aft corner of your preference. Paint yourself out, as you said.

Big helpers:

someone to mix for you (I didn't have anyone)
two laminate rollers (one in the acetone, one out at all times, alternate with each pot)
two brushes (one in, one out as above)
at least one blade to spread, 6" is a nice size spreader, but a credit card works fine too

Work in socks! The tread on your shoes can pull fabric. Sweaty feet can pull fabric. Socks are perfect!

Work diligently, and fastidiously. Taking the extra second or two to straighten out the fabric each time will make the layup so much tighter and smoother, you will be happy when it comes time to put your frames in permenantly.

Keep it up!

E

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:07 am
by tech_support
Good tips from eric.

I have found faster progress builds its own "momentum". Now that your on the inside and doing some areas of glass that will never be seen :wink: - try to pick up the pace on the composite work. Make longer fillets, work wet on wet, mix bigger batches of epoxy (forces you to wet out faster before it kicks)

Its tough to build a 20'+ boat 3 oz. at a time

Brown whiskey slow me down, maybe try some of the clear kind 8O A little lightning could boost production :D

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:03 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
The last time I heard "brown whiskey" I was in a bar watching a band play. Next thing you know a brass guitar gets launched and the Lead singer/guitarist is chasing the fiddle player out the door. Guitarist's wife is playing a washtub with a broom handle and rope (in her socks BTW). She looks at the crowd and says "Brown Whiskey!" That was the end of the show. Probably time as it was about 0300 hrs.

Amazing how all aspects of life tie into boat-building
8)
Huck

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:52 am
by gk108
Huck that almost sounds like a band called Sloppy Joe.

Dougster, make sure your helper thoroughly understands the importance of correct resin/hardener ratio. :!:

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:54 pm
by Daniel Huckleberry
It was the Stumpknockers. Not together anymore, at least with those members. You can see the Lead singer/guitarist in the movie Love Song for Bobby Long. He was in one scene in a bar as the band.

Huck

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:08 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for all the good tips. I tried one just last evening (brown whiskey). Drank it neat with an old friend; very good indeed. I like the wearing socks idea for glassing the bottom too. I did use 8 oz resin mixes for the bottom glass and was able to get it on before it kicked. I use slow hardener and pour the mix into a big shallow aluminum pan before I start. I'm OK with a 6" squeegee (sp?) spreader on a horizontal surface, but needed a roller for vertical ones. I used little pink ones from HD with good results. Don't think I'll bother with peel ply for this glass on the bottom. I can't get to the chine seams 'till next Wed. I got more glass ordered from Bateau so that's the next big hill for me.

Stumpknockers. What a great name for a band. Brown Whiskey---not a bad name for a boat :)

Praise the 'poxy and pass the ibuprofen Dougster

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:11 pm
by WobblyLegs
Dougster wrote:Praise the 'poxy and pass the ibuprofen Dougster
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Is the ibuprofen to help the back after 'poxy, or 'cos of too much brown whiskey?

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:20 pm
by Cracker Larry
Brown whiskey won't hurt ya. :wink:

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:20 pm
by Dougster
No need for pics, but thought I'd chime in and and report finishing the port and starboard chine seams today (fillet and tape). Worked wet on wet, wore myself out, but am glad to have it done. More glass from Bateau came recently so I'll be ready to glass the bottom soon, though time is short 'cuz I'm soon leaving for Vancouver Island :) I'm following Spoke's threads with Vman very carefully, as the issues are, of course, very much my own. I gotta check out the Ninigret roll up cover, for one thing.

He's not whacked, he's just letting the seams cure Dougster

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:34 am
by Spokaloo
Doug here are a few examples, the real Ms. Ninigret:

From the front, notice how translucent it is:

Image

Same boat, aft, note how much fun everyone is having:

Image

Here is another, this one really shows the bows well, and how incredibly lightweight it turns out:

Image

I just get the impression this is more suitable for your desires of the boat. Not so much for the sun worshippers, moreso for the cruising and protection.

Glad to hear things are going well taping, do what you can, but dont hurt yourself. That reminds me, are you popping through to go for a cruise in my Nina?

E

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:22 am
by Dougster
I sure wish I could check your Nina out but we won't be in the neighborhood. That would be too much fun, and useful too, plus I'd llike to meet you and your wife. Ah well, Vancouver Island will be fun. No fishing planned, but who knows. I have seen those Ninigret pics, and they are what the Jacques plans show really. I had thought you were referring to something else. Anyway, that's clearly the mod for my uses. Still, I'd like some sun shade possibility at the helm, the problem being getting something that doesn't look odd. Maybe Vmans drawing with the cabin mod, but I'm not sure. Bimini tops are a nuisance at times and don't necessarily look that good. Probably I'll use the boat a season first. Sore this morning, but took a brisk 3 mile walk before breakfast. BTW, re the scuppers, I've been musing about draining them through the stern into the side wells with bilge pumps, and putting scuppers up high in the wells as sort of a "fail safe" if the pumps fail. I can't visualize the side wells enough to really see it. As for the motor, well I plan on covering it somehow, though it will trouble the lines I know. Maybe make lemonade: call it a stern tower :)

Likes lemonade ok Dougster

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:39 am
by Spokaloo
Doug if you go with a 30hp 2 stroke, you will have no problems covering the motor. I just have too much motor back there with the 50 horse 4.

I am working out an idea for my drainage:

I have cut a hole from the main seating area that will drain through the seatbox, out into the slopwell in front of the transom. I am going to run it like that a trial or two to see where the water ends up. I am 50/50 on how to drain it yet though. One thought is a scupper in the transom with a foot valve in line, water going one way only. Another is to drain it into that area, then run a bilge pump in that one spot over the transom. Less holes, but more systems to fail and maintain. Im keeping the side compartments sealed up, with hatches in the sides so I can store items in there, but if we get into trouble they continue to be sealed air spaces.

We will see, I might try to get 20 gals of water in the boat and see what happens.

If I see anything crazy to cover the forward seating area for shade, ill let you know. I hear rumor that there is a thatched roof bimini out there, I want to see it.

E

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:04 pm
by gk108
Spokaloo wrote:If I see anything crazy to cover the forward seating area for shade, ill let you know. I hear rumor that there is a thatched roof bimini out there, I want to see it.

E
How about some aluminized tyvek? 8)
http://www.materialconcepts.com/pages/uv-soft-tyvek.asp

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:27 am
by Spokaloo
Actually GK, that gives me an idea....

I want to build a skin on frame kayak. How cool would it be to do it in that aluminized tyvek, all shiny and brilliant!

E

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:38 am
by gk108
Errrr, that might be OK on a cloudy day. 100ร‚ยฐ temps here today kinda bring that to mind. :D
The material in the top of the boat pictured above sure does let a lot of light through. I wonder what it is?

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:55 am
by Lucky_Louis
Dougster, when and where abouts on the Island you goin? We might have a chance to hook up, swap some lies, and drink some canuck whiskey 8O The only time this stuff makes yer head hurt is if you happen to fall on it :lol:

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:47 pm
by Dougster
I'll be in Victoria, then up the east side through Nanaimo and spammer. You in the area? I'm just sight seeing with the wife. Look at boats, eat, look at shoreline, oh good it's happy hour, look at boats, eat...well, you get it. No big agenda.

Likes a good time Dougster

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:23 pm
by Vman777
Dougster - you and spokaloo got me thinking to hard again :lol: :lol:

came up with another idea. Let's just say kind of like a cuddy cabin up front like on the Ninigret only a lot lower that pops up, kind of hard to explain. Very light weight, since the top is wood and fabric.

Working on it.

David

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:36 am
by Spokaloo
Doug, shouldn't you be making some progress and posting photos?

:lol:

E

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:02 am
by Dougster
E: Nah, I'm outta here :)

Got a ticket to ride Dougster

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:49 pm
by Spokaloo
Just because you had a vacation doesn't mean you are off the hook...

Get back to work!

E

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:43 pm
by Dougster
Yeah old Dougster had to come home and go back to work. But, 2 weeks on Vancouver island! Then home to work one day and a long weekend in Dallas :? Those two don't compute. Progress on boat? Well, I did tape the transom the other day:

Image

Also I cut out the glass panels for the bottom. Then I had sanded inside the boat to smooth her out a little and got glass/poxy itch sting all night 8O That makes you know you're alive! I might be old, but by God I'm slow. Here's a little Vancouver Isl. taste:

Image

Can you see the good girls in with the hookers?

Here's one close up:

Image

Well, isn't she a treat. Here's a Bimini top behind a cabin top. Don't see it working for Nina though. Thoughts?

Image

And check this out. The boat on the right is up in her berth. To her right is the next berth. I spoke with one of the guides that uses them. Touch her bow up close, goose the motor and roll right up, the two supports pivot up and she's high and dry. Too slick.

Image

And finally, look at this beautiful thing. And that guy on the stern proceeded to get in the kayak and paddle off. Beer run?

Image

Lovin' that stuff Dougster

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:39 pm
by Cracker Larry
Nice pics, Doug, beautiful place :!: I've never been.

Glad you're back :D

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:36 am
by Dougster
Thanks Larry, it's good to be home. We're not having the heat here in S. Texas like you're getting. Highs in mid 90's which is not bad for this time of year. I'm looking to get the bottom glass panels cut to shape today, then I'll be out of excuses and will have to glass 'em in 8O Don't look forward to it, its hard for stiff old me to crawl around in the hull and spread 'poxy. It'll be a good job to finish. Then I got to get the frames in, which will be tough. She's layin' there opened up like a naughty girl and is gonna take some muscle to get her to come up to those frames. Eric spoke of using 2X4's as levers at the chine to pull his in. Sounds like a plan.

Says Vancouver Island is pretty but Texas is home Dougster

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:19 am
by Lucky_Louis
Can't believe Dougster played for two weeks in my sandbox and didn't even call :(

I would have run across the Strait to spammer River and fetched you up no problem. :D Looks like you really hit the weather right, we're back to cold, cloudy and unsettled.

Glad you had a great vacation, but next time - you call, you hear? :wink:

Here's a glimpse back to a simpler time in the same waters... ain't she lovely? She's doing 12-14kn and look Ma, no wake!
Image

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:28 pm
by Dougster
Darn, I blew that. We spent five days in spammer River and Quadra Island. I didn't really realize someone from the forum was nearby. What a great place for boats. Serious boat paradise. I saw one guy drifting a kayak, mooching with a spinning reel. I ate some great oysters and of course terrific salmon. But I didn't get a ride on a Bateau home build :(. Re my project, I have little to report, other than cutting out the bottom panels and dry fitting one in, ready for wet out, which I hope to do day after tomorrow. As I said, it's a bit of a challenge but I believe I'm ready to go. I did mix up a small batch of Silvertip epoxy with graphite and painted it on a little sample piece of glassed meranti. I'm gonna set it out in the Texas summer sun at different angles just to see what happens. Kinda fun.

Wouldn't mind catching a salmon from a kayak Dougster

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:02 pm
by Spokaloo
Believe me, anything over 16oz is a monster in a kayak!

You know Doug, if you buy my plane ticket, put me up, and feed me, Ill do that layup for free

:D

E

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:31 pm
by Dougster
Sing Hosannah! Sing 8 to the bar.
She's got glass on her bottom; so good so far.

Well I got the inside bottom glass in (though not without a story :oops: ) All looks dry and set today and it's time to move on. I won't bother with a picture as it's just the hull with tape above plus the bottom glass. So, yeah, the story.

In my wisdom I chose to do the hull bottom in two parts: starboard and port panels. I got the glass for both panels cut, dry fit them, then took out one, cleaned up a bit and did some prep for the next day. The next day I did the port side and it went very easily. So much so that I regretted not doing it all at once. I premeasured 6 cups with 8 ozs. of resin, then removed the bottle of resin and labeled one cup clearly for "hardener". Put a clear mark on it for 4 ozs. It turns out 6 cups wasn't enough and I had to mix a few more on the fly, but no problem. Next morning all is hard and I'm pleased. Two days later, I have the day off and do the same prep, but with 9 cups. I'm feelin' fine. Get through 9 cups and need another. Finish it and there's only a 3 by 4 foot square flat section at the stern left. Well, mix one more, and spread any left over on the bare side panels I figure. I don't pick up on the ominous slow swelling of pride in my heart, which we all know goeth. Anyway, I pour the hardener in its measured cup, then pour the resin in another. I go to put up the resin bottle and notice a small bubble near the wet edge and think to myself, "I'll get that before I wet out this last patch". I then proceed to stir my resin for 90 seconds by my watch, climb in the boat, fix the bubble, and wet out the last 3 by 4 foot patch. Oddly enough there wasn't quite enough resin to wet it all out. Oh well, mix a bit more. I go over to my hardener cup, and, oh yeah, there it is with premeasured hardener still in it 8O I knew immediately I had let myself get distracted by that bubble and forgot to add the hardener before mixing. That little bit of warning pride I hadn't picked up on wenteth before the fall. I did want to wail, tear hair, nash teeth, etc., but managed not to give in to that. I could think of only two reasonable solutions. 1) Walk away, come back the next day, cut out the gooped up section, cut a patch, lay it on, and wet it out. 2) Cut it out now, with everything still wet. Cut it a little big to make sure I get it all. Cut a fresh patch, lay it in and wet it out. Since I couldn't face walking away I did number 2. Today, all looks well. The patched area is good and hard and I think I am ok. Part of it gets cut out for the motor well anyway. So......the last cup of resin, a little false pride, and ....oops.

Could maybe tear up crow bar in a sand pile Dougster

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:33 pm
by ks8
Oh sure... blame the bubble... :lol:

Glad it all worked out.

With large laminations, I use only one cup measuring and mixing, but maybe setup 7 or 8 of them. Lowest line is blue and marked for resin. Above that is a red line, for hardener, of course measured correct. So blue line might be at 4 oz and red line at 6 oz (the additional 2 oz for the hardener). Resin bottle has blue tape on it. Hardener has red tape. If the contents of the cup are not up to the red line, I know I didn't add hardener yet. Scared myself glassing the hull bottom... almost goofed. So this system, I think, is pretty foolproof, unless the wrong tape goes on the wrong jug! Don't mark the caps... too easy to swap them by mistake. And using one cup, there is no scraping needed of a separate hardener cup to get all of it out.

Just a thought... :)

Build on!

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:38 pm
by Spokaloo
A paultry little error, Doug. Nothing to be too concerned about, and easily recovered from. I think having seen how it went out here you know that was no biggie.

Nice recovery, and I posted to your transom Q elsewhere.

E

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:39 pm
by Dougster
Well, it's true I'd have to go some to top the Passat clamp :wink:

Knows greatness when he sees it Dougster

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:10 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Dougster

Recovery is as or more important than the initiation or the journey. Nice work and congratulations! Big milestones like that usually feed my drive to move on to the next step. You should still be proud! You my friend are a boat builder :!: 8)

Huck

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:35 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Huck, I will admit it's a good feeling doing this. And, yeah, gettin' yourself into a jam and then getting your own self out of it does build confidence. It's a great hobby, it clearly builds self esteem, and most of all, it's just plain fun :D

Likes havin' a good time Dougster

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:45 pm
by Cracker Larry
I always feels good to hit a milestone, doesn't it :D Good work, Dougster!

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:46 pm
by TomW
Dougster, another step a fixed boo, boo and on to the next with a smile on your face.

Way to go!

Tom

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:57 pm
by Dougster
Nice to have all you guys on board. Otherwise, although friends and wife are supportive, I'd be alone in this. Of course, alone on a boat is not the same thing as lonely :)

Likes company though Dougster

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:22 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
I know what you mean, Doug. This board keeps me moving or at least motivated to do so. About being alone with your boat, I have some questions. Does she ever keep you out past curfew? How about getting you drunk to take advantage of you? Mine does :oops: I think she even gave me BBV.

Lookin for love in all the wrong places

Huck

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:34 pm
by Dougster
Well, my God, this is embarassing. I've got so little progress to report. Well, like you said Huck, she gimme BBV & i'm 'dicted. Course, that doesn't explain this tiny little bit of progress I have to report after so long :oops: All I've done is cut two little frame templates. In between I fiddle with jacking, shoring, begging the hull to fair up, and sittin' in the crying chair. She's got a little twist, maybe list, surely rocker if not hooker, and lookin' for the best compromise, then cutting frames to fit, which effects the decks to come, etc., has been tedious. But she's my girl and I love her. Anyway, here's two frame templates, cut out of cheap luan. Wonderful stuff for that, BTW, cuts like butter with a jig saw and a little block plane.

Image

Image

Well, there it is. You can't see it but it represents a ton of compromises. my advice is to focus hard of the jig/molds and not have these troubles. That first picture is frame C. It's not Jacques' frame C by up to an inch in several places. He no doubt will forgive me, as it least fits the hull. The big frame, C, shows the ears sticking up. They are 3" too short, and my plan is to 'glass slice 5" or so to give plenty of room to fit them to the cabin sides, which no doubt will be an exercise in understanding Job for me. The only thing I can add is, the whole thing has been a great deal of fun :)

Playin' boatbuilder Dougster

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:09 pm
by Cracker Larry
Those look good Dougster, and you're moving along. Gonna be a good boat some day soon.

Huckster, mine made me get a buzz just keeping the bugs off her. Dang her.

This hobby is much more enjoyable because of the fine company we keep :D

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:49 pm
by Dougster
Fine company for sure, it's a very big plus for building one of Jacques' designs. I spent several hours today just tracing the templates for frames B and C onto good ply and cutting them. Made one poor cut and will need to fiddle with it as it will show. Won't bother with pictures, it's the same as the last ones only with 3/8 " meranti 'stead of cheap luan for the frames. They fit well and I'm generally pleased. It occurs to me that I started the build right at one year ago. I think if I could have seen these recent pictures back then I would have been encouraged. It's been a lotta sweat, humming along with the radio, muttering, and head scratching. This forum has already helped dig me out of several holes, and I'm sure there will be more to come. I've learned plenty, and got plenty more to go. Sure do look forward to the next year :)

"He not busy being born is busy dying" Dougster

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:14 pm
by steve292
1 year-I bet you've enjoyed it though.

BTW I think you're doing a better job of it than you think
plus you've had me rolling around with laughter on occasions, & I don't mean that nastily either, you've got a gift for words.
Keep going Dougster, you're good for the money.
good luck,
steve.
who's been at the traditional Somerset drink made of apples a bit to much tonight.

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:04 pm
by Spokaloo
One thousand word post:

Image

Keep on keepin on man...

E

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:19 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Nice work, Dougster!

Glad to see you at her. I promise that the steps you make now will be very rewarding. They all make great big visual impressions and those are motivating (for me, anyway).

I have been on mine for about one year, too. Like wine, about one more needed to be real good.

Give her some lovin' for me and keep postin.

Huck

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:22 am
by TomW
Congratulations on your years anniverary Dougster, like fine wine she just keeps getting better the longer she goes.

Keep up the good work and remember not every grape is good, but in the end the product is what counts.

Tom

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:35 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for all the support. Support from friends and other non boat builders is, of course, just not the same, and so this community of infected BBV folks is well appreciated. Nina says thanks too :)

One step at a time Dougster

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:13 pm
by Dougster
Ah well, the stringers are edge glued in, thanks to the famous Huckster's Hangman's Jig :) . The frames in the pics are just dry fit for now, but not for long. Took a long time for me to get satisfied with the frames and general fit. Kept fiddling with them and the "boat press" jig 'till I could say good 'nuff. I can't wait to get the frames glued in so I can start to fillet and tape. I figure on doing a little bit each night this week, then hit it on Sat. Here's pics with the Hangman Jig. Thanks to you Huck!

Image


Image

Image

This last picture shows her just before I laid down the glue. I dry fit the stringers, marked the hull with a sharpie, pulled the stringers up a foot with Hucks' Jig, filled in the sharpie lines with goop, and lowered the stringers back down. Then dry fit a couple of frames for spacing/support. Feels good to move forward a bit instead of just tweakin' stuff

Likes that jig Dougster

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:31 pm
by Vman777
Dougster - Wow, I didn't realize you were this far. Looking good!

I guess I better get going on those cabin etc. drawings.

David

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:22 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Very cool, Doug! 8)

Glad I was able to be there in spirit! Amazing how much help we can all get from this board.

I am sanding, and sanding, and sanding....well you get the picture. I am ready for the good 'nuff. I called it quits with the primer last night. One more quick sand today and I'll paint, right or wrong. I like the build, but I love to boat and the weather's perfect.

Keep it up. We might have to do a Texas meet someday soon!

Huck

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:30 am
by Spokaloo
Lookin very good man, way to get moving!

A frame a night will get you forward progress, then fillet and tape one a night as well (or prep one the first night and glue it up the second night).

Its gonna be a nice boat in the spring!

E

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:53 pm
by Dougster
Hey thanks guys. I got plenty left to do though before she can float. I haven't faired and painted the bottom yet, so after the frames (and maybe rub rail) I gotta flip her and get out that sander 8O. Then I'm planning on graphite/epoxy for the bottom. Those "ears" on frame C are in the way of the flip. Without them I could just roll her over, but, oh well. I'll get me a couple of cowboys and she'll go :) . So it's a while yet Vman, till I get to that cabin. Step at a time. BTW, how big is your fuel tank Eric? I don't remember seeing any gph or mpg specs on her and kinda wonder.

Keepin' on keepin' on Dougster

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:47 am
by Spokaloo
19 gallons Doug. The fitment of the tank I put in was very snug as I had to have the filler neck modified due to the height of the forward deck. I think if you special order the tank from Moeller or whoever, you can get the 90 degree filler. There are a handful of posts on the blog with the tank.

I haven't done fuel statistics yet as I haven't finished out the fuel gauge install yet. Im estimating fuel economy as a wild ass guess right now, so I bear absolutely no accuracy. We went out two evenings for a wakeboard session and cruise, putting on about 2 hrs total, and spent most of a saturday on the water, adding another 4 hrs cruising. I went to put in 10 gallons of fuel, but could only get 5 in. With the various throttle settings of those trips between WOT and idle, Id guess somewhere in the 1.5-2 gph at 18kt cruise and below, with significantly higher rates above that.

Like I said, its a wild ass guess. When I have the gauge and a GPS ill iron those numbers out better.

E

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:29 pm
by Dougster
Ah thanks Eric, that was my ballpark idea (I like around the 18 gallon tanks Bateau sells. I'll check the clearance thing some more. I hope this question wasn't a thread jack. If not I'd like to use this thread (I like the title) as a random question place regarding the lb22 design. You know, a place to muse :wink:

Glued in the first frame tonight Dougster

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:34 pm
by Spokaloo
Its definitely an open thread to read, although I think we have lost the majority of readers by now. Sometimes its best, when the question is specific, to start a new thread that will be picked up by search engines for subsequent builders.

E

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:39 pm
by Dougster
Hey you're on line! I kinda miss posted. I meant to say I wonder about posting in your Anything Else Lb22 thread, but I guess you sorts figured. Great fish you been catching BTW. Lord that's a big perch! Hell keep fishin' if you're on that kind of roll :)

Knows a big perch when he sees one Dougster

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:44 pm
by Spokaloo
We have a sweet perch spot just a few miles downriver from the house. Generally can catch 25 per hour with 2 rods fishing. That one was out on a tour though, in a place filled with bigger bass and crappie. Taking his life into his own hands!

I need to go find a trout tonight for the competition. Gotta head up near the dam, do a little bank fishing.

You better go get a bulkhead put in!

E

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:46 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Any news lately, Doug? Just wondering how this cooler weather was treatin' you.

Huck

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:47 am
by Dougster
Hey Huck how goes it? I've been slowed with work stress. Less a time problem than just emotional energy, but last weekend I got about a third through fillet/taping the stringers/frames. It's a big job! Folks here told me so and it sure nuff is. Takes me about 3 hrs and 2 ibuprofen for each "box" working wet on wet. I'm geared up for another go today and especially Sat./Sun., but I won't get it finished. After that I want to put the rub rail on and will maybe have to post asking for a little advice on that. Then she's gotta be turned and the bottom faired. I have been thinking, since she's sitting good and level right now, I should mark some kind of conservative water line, since I want to coat the bottom with graphite/epoxy after fairing. A waterline would help me see how far to go with the graphite mix I'm thinking. Dunno 'bout that, just mentioning it in case folks got any ideas. Right now I have some momentum going on the stringer/frame tape thing so I'm keeping my sights on that. Thanks for checking in. Weather is glorious here, how are things in Alabama?

Gets by with a little help from his friends Dougster

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:12 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Weather is beautiful here. I was able to paint with the doors and windows closed on my building. No dust or bugs present! Temp and humidity were perfect, too.

As for the frames, I aggree that they are boogers. Very time consuming and labor intensive. Pains galore. Once you get there, you will look back and know that you have the Lions share of glassing done :) :o . That is a major accomplishment.

As for the water line, I am not sure what to tell you. It is best/easiest to do the graphite while she is turned turtle, but it is going to be hard to keep your waterline mark as you apply fairing cmpd and primer. Maybe mark it, photograph it, and fair it. Then apply graphite on the bottom only (like spokaloo did with bottom paint) then flip her back up, mark the water-line and rinse, lather, and repeat.

Good luck and keep us posted!
Huck

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:00 pm
by steve292
If you have a laser level,set it at the right height,mark your waterline on the boat,then swing the level onto a wall, mark it & you will have a height reference to re-mark the hull after you have faired.If you mark on several walls you can use a water level after fairing as well.Come to think of it you could do it all with a water level.
Steve

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:14 pm
by Daniel Huckleberry
I second the laser level. That made short work of marking the waterline. I just made several marks along the waterline and just connected the dots. Fast as a rabbit and easy as......

Huck

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:44 pm
by Cracker Larry
A water level is how we did it in the old days. It works like a champ, but now I'm a laser man, too :wink:

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:19 am
by Dougster
I love you guys; right on cue you give me the justification to go tool shopping :D Who wants to live life without a laser level? However, it is kind of embarassing to read Huck's point about the fairing process erasing the waterline mark and admit that hadn't even occurred to me :oops: I'm sure if I had a laser level I would have thought of it.

Gonna fool around with 'poxy some today Dougster

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:35 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Hey Dougster! Saw you online and wanted to say Happy Thanksgiving. Any progress lately? Spring will be here before you know it!

Huck

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:54 am
by Dougster
Thanks Huck. I'm just checkin' in on the congregation here before heading into San Antonio to join the extended family for T Day. I hope you and everyone here have someone to share with today. Progress inches along with the fillet taping. I'm unbelievably slow but am getting there. Then I'm gonna do the rub rail before I flip her and fair that pretty bottom. There is a little waver in the starboard sheer that I hope the rub rail helps with. If not, the little deck will smooth it out I think. Another thing is, since I wanna do the graphite thing on her bottom, I'm thinkin' I should mark a conservative water line before I flip her to show how far up to lay the graphite. Since I don't know where the line will be, I'm thinkin' maybe bring the graphite up to the sole, figuring the black will look ok against any topsides color I choose. What do you guys think?

Double taping stringers and transoms Dougster :)

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:01 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Black and white are universals, Doug. I don't know how far your sole is above the waterline but check out/with Spokaloo's and you will have a good idea. I had a wave in my freeboard, also. The rub-rail really helped it out. That is why I went with the solid cedar. I was afraid multiple thin layers wouldn't pull the wave out. Don't take that as a truth, just a simple man's paranoia.

Have a great Holiday. I am at work but off by 14:30. Just in time for a late lunch!

Huck

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:58 pm
by Spokaloo
Glad to see you haven't completely stopped. Neither have I, but its not exciting to show fairing and sanding....

Ill put down my waterline based on where it sits in the water, and give you the measurements. One thing to keep in mind is my motor will weigh more, but Im guessing that the hull might be a little lighter due to the fillers I used. Im going to probably put a hair of a curve in it to keep any trim issues from showing (old wood boat technique).

Lets see photos!

E

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:24 pm
by Dougster
Hell no I haven't stopped. Just do an hour here and there as time/energy allow. I'm closing in on all the taping though, and feel some momentum. So I'll post a pic or two. Hey Huck, how much trouble was it to scarf the cedar rub rail, and how well did it take the bend/twist? I do think about a bright finished rub rail now and then, and have like you worried about the little 1/4" lay up rub rail deal not forcing the shear more fair. Still, I think the deck will help me there. Maybe I'll play with it. Post soon Spoke, I've been wonderin' how your going. That big of a metal building sure would do you fine too. It's funny how we like similar designs. The DE23 was almost my first choice of build, but just looked like a bridge too far at my stage. Then Nina caught my fancy.

Got 'poxy in my hair the other day but caught it in time for a vinegar bath Dougster :)

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:57 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Dougster, Don't try this at home!! JM doesn't condone this behavior!

OTOH, the cedar is very light and flexible. Scarf is easy. I beveled the bottom edge on the router table before installing. I also made lots of poor man clamps from scrap PVC I had in the shop. It really straightened most (98%) of my unfairness out. Kinda wish I had done an inwale before glassing the outside. Would have probably been even better. Then I could have done the outer rubrail later.

The final dimensions of the cedar were about 3/4" x 1-1/2. Then I let my side decks come out to their edge, making the total thickness about 1-7/8. I also glued another piece of cedar to the inside top of my frames as the inner edge and stiffener of the gunwales (this was done before the decks went on). When the epoxy was dry I used a flush cut bit in the router, then a 1/2" roundover to finish it up. I glassed my side decks with 9oz fabric and let it cover the rubrail, deck, and inner gunwale. I'm quite happy with the results.

The only place I used ply was in the bow, underneath the front deck overhang. I cut the deck to the curve I wanted, first. Then I added thin strips of ply, one at a time, under the front edge. It was too short of a run to get that much bend out of the cedar without kerfing or steaming.

Huck

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:35 am
by Dougster
Ah, lots to digest. Lemme chew on that awhile Huck. I may post a pic of the problem, in fact I will for sure. It's only on one side, at the stern. The motor well frame is probably 1/4" too short (in its width) and pulls in the sheer in a bit there. It looks pretty bad now but I'm sure rubrails/inwales/decks give me a lotta fix options.

Gonna do some fillet/tape this morning Dougster

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:48 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Doug, pics are good. Mine was on one side, too. It was next to the window. I am guessing that had something to do with it. The rubrail helped TONS. I had a couple of frames that didn't meet up perfectly, as well. When I went to put them in after the flip and glass, there was tweaking to do. If it was much over 1/4" I would use thin ply for shims, just to save epoxy. To get things to line up I used ratchet straps but tried not to pull it out of fair. It helped to add boards on the outside of the rubrail (under the strap hooks) to distribute the point load of the straps.

Sorry if I give you too much information. Cut me off and/or ask for clarification any time.

Huck

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:56 am
by Dougster
Not too much info Huck. If I get enough, sometimes a little will sink in :) Yeah, I'll end the day with pictures. I've given some thought to shims, as you mention, and also the ratchet straps for coaxing things along. The deck cleats I need to put in may help me too.

Gotta quit typing and get building Dougster

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:00 pm
by Spokaloo
Since we are all allowed to put opinions out there, here are mine:

Doug, your unfair areas will straighten out some with the rubrail, and will really get pressed into the correct shape when you fit your sheer clamps to the inside. Those 1x1 battens are much stronger and stiffer than whatever you put on as an outwale. If its relatively close when you do the outs, the ins will finish it off. Have no fear.

Secondly, this is just my experience building other boats and other wood projects. I love cedar, its probably my favorite wood to work with. That said, think of what you do to your gunnels. These will hit other boats, docks, trailer pieces, trees in close quarters, more docks, ladders and garage items laid against them, and the dock in wind. The rubrail needs to be REALLY tough! One of the reasons I and many others use plywood laminates is that they make durable rails. Granted a stainless strap will help, but having worked with cedar a good deal, I know it will dent very readily. It has pretty minimal compressive strength, while having so many other good qualities. I think your local longleaf yellow pine would be a better softwood choice if you go that route. Not too heavy, durable, and still flexible. Ipe or cypress would be a nice outer layer, and TOUGH.

Just info for you, do it how ya want. If you are really careful you might not have a problem with the cedar getting dinged/gouged/scratched, but if you are anything like me, you dont just polish your boat and look at it, you use the ever living crap out of it.

E

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:31 pm
by Daniel Huckleberry
You are right about the softness. I don't leave the wood. I always cover mine with something. It is glassed and I am using semi-rigid vinyl over that. I don't like to re-paint.

And all the opinions and experiences are what we like about this board.

Huck

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:25 pm
by Dougster
Hey guys, I had a decent day, did two "boxes" of fillet/tape with none in my hair. I think. Here's a pic from the stern:

Image


Now here's a pic of the starboard sheer I'm talking about. The last little bit by the stern bows out the most, and yeah, sheer clamps could pull it in.

Image

That little section next to the bowed part in the stern is pushed in a bit too, making things look worse. Seems like I can work it out if I fuss with it. I'm pretty much sure I'll use the bateau preferred ply laminations for the rubrail. And maybe I'll wait on it. It'll be some fun to fool with and I think I need to get her flipped, motor well cut out 8O , and start fairing 8O 8O . Only thing I have wondered is if the rubrail will make the turn safer. Those big "ears" on station C make rolling her impossible anyway though. Thinking about building a cradle.


One train wreck at a time Dougster

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:42 pm
by Cracker Larry
Doug, I think I'd go ahead and get some rub rails on her. You'll want that straightened out before you do the outside fairing and it will stiffen up the boat for the flip.

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:43 pm
by TomW
Doug just saw your recent work, it looks good, quit making excuses. The rub rail will stiffen everything up then the gunnel can be used to shape her to how she should be. You and Spok will have to trailer them and meet half way at Lake Havasu in Nevada.

Tom

PS I don't know when I haven't done a big project when I haven't gotten some type of glue or paint or whatever in my hair, maybe that's why I'm mostly bald. LOL

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:45 pm
by steve292
Put the rails on Doug,you will need the sheer fair to fair,if you know what I mean.

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:37 pm
by Dougster
Thanks guys, get her fair to fair makes a lotta sense. And get stiff 'for I roll her. Um, well, yeah... You guys got me feelin' motivated to push through this fillet/tape thing, and I'm gonna try for a big day tomorrow. Soon as the tape is finished I'll start that rub rail/sheer clamp/inwhale/ratched strap/ply shim/dammit all to hell get fair thing on the sheer.

Truth is he'd sleep better havin' that off his mind Dougster

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:44 pm
by Daniel Huckleberry
Looks great Doug! You acted like you hadn't done anything! I don't blame you for going with the ply. I didn't say my way was right or the best, just what seemed to work well for me. I guarantee JM won't steer you wrong and Spokaloo has already been there. That means alot!

Good luck. Definitely put whatever rub rail you will use on B/F you flip. You won't believe how much stiffer it will be.

Huck

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:01 pm
by Spokaloo
Dan, I think the cedar is an excellent wood to use for a sheer clamp or a rubrail on a boat that won't get used and abused daily, dont get me wrong. Just an application variance.

Doug, looks good, coming along well. Make sure to get every last bubble out of your layups with that laminate roller, itll pay off in the fairing phase.

Hop onto the blog and look at my bracing for the rollover. I think it was in april. You should be able to build a similar support out of construction grade 2x4 to protect your ears, and that will allow a 2/3 rollover before you have to pick it up. Have some sawhorses out there, set up to about the right spread to hit in front of the F frame and behind the B frame, and wide enough for both stringer to sit on. This way, when you start the roll, you can pick it up and set it on the horses for a break. Keeps the ears off the ground and allows repositioning of the lifters. Dedicate one person to sawhorse duty, who is not involved in lifting. I had SWMBO do it. Get them under the boat while its inverted, then set it up on top of the horses. When you are ready to move again, have your horse tender just tip them over flat, that way you don't have to lift it high off the ground to get past the frames.

The gunnels will straighten out perfectly, and itll be fairing time!

E

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:16 pm
by Dougster
Well Cracker Larry's famous patented Framecaster worked a treat. Very cleaver, Larry, I would have never thought of it. Here's pics:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Thanks a lot for posting that Larry. The center black clamp on the last pic is just there as a counterbalance. That pic is of the dry fit, it's setting in some 'poxy glue now, as is the last frame (A). A little tape and fillet and it's rub rail playtime! I really have a hard time believing how long this phase has taken me, but, well I guess that's my way.

Cruisin' the slow lane Dougster

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:38 pm
by Spokaloo
Well, the tortoise did win the race, didnt he?

Looks like you decided not to notch the stringers, eh? Very interesting.

E

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:05 pm
by Dougster
Nah, I didn't notch 'em. Seemed like a lot of trouble and much easier not to. Dunno if it matters. Seems to me the main force is transverse, right down the length of the boat, the motor driving its power thru the stringers. Hope Jacque doesn't mind :oops:

Always did like turtles Dougster

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:33 pm
by Cracker Larry
My pleasure Dougster, glad it worked out for you :D Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in awhile (speaking of me).

I had asked Jacques about notching the stringers and he said it was stronger if you don't. He recommended doing it just like you and I did.

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:53 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Nice work, Dougster! Now, lets see some tape!

Wishing I had seen the patented Framecaster before doing mine!

Huck

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:59 pm
by Dougster
Sing Halleluja, Sing the Shephard's song.
All stringers and frames are taped, and Dougster's movin' on!

Well, hyperbole maybe, but it do feel good :D Took me 4ever but oh well. Better yet, a hidden fear is over. Before I taped I discovered a twist in the hull, and forced it out this way:

Image

Image

The second pic shows the 2by4 holding the nose and the first shows a scissors jack "coaxing" her fair. My hope was that after the stringers and frames were added, glued, and taped, they would hold her so. My fear was, of course, that she would creep back. Well, after all was taped, I held my breath a bit and backed off on the jack. All was well: not even a sound, no creaking, no movement. This all was caused by the jig not being quite square and level, but it was close enough deal with it seems. Crawling around in the hull with a 4' level, everything looks good, and the diagonals are good. It's are relief. Here's a last pic, all frames taped.

Image

Now it's on to the the rubrail, where I'm sure I'll have more struggles, but at least they will be different ones. You're right Huck, Larry's framecaster is a winner!

Glad to be here Dougster

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:04 pm
by steve292
Good stuff Dougster,looking good
About the rubrails....are you going to laminate them from thin strips? it is the easiest way IMHO to make life easy.I've just finished mine & it was a doddle using 1/4 strips & dowels to line them up.
Wishing he was that far on,
Steve

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:17 pm
by davidtx
That's great new Dougster. I know you were sweating that one. Good Christmas present.

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:53 am
by Spokaloo
Doug, she looks good enough to flip over! Glad to see some creative ingenuity on the de-twist-ifier there.

Next up is one of the hardest parts of the whole thing...

Cutting the motorwell.....

Nice work Doug.

E

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:55 am
by Dougster
Thanks Steve. BTW, .... a doddle? Er, well, can we say that on this forum? :) I gotta deal with my wavy starboard sheer so I'll make it hard somehow. (oops, can I say that?) Anyway, dowels it is, I bought 'em at HD the other day. And yes Spoke, that big cut out is clearly a men from the boys day. If I mess that up you'll hear me hollerin' way up there in snow country, let alone across the way to Dave's. Jeez what a scarey cut.

Stallin' with the rubrail awhile Dougster

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:48 am
by Spokaloo
You'll be fine, just be patient, use a drill to mark out your lines, and cut with a slow, steady hand.

LOTS OF CLAMPS ON THE SHEER!

E

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:20 pm
by Daniel Huckleberry
No worries, Dougster! Glad to hear you made that milestone! Just look back at all the hurdles you've jumped and I bet you'll find it easier to get to the next one! It actually sounds kinda fun to cut out that motorwell.

Merry Christmas
Huck

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:54 pm
by davidtx
Imagine using the motorwell cutout as a mounting board for that big fish and then hanging it on your shop wall. Nah - too cheesy.

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:00 pm
by Cracker Larry
Looks great, Dougster 8) Those milestones (millstones?) feel good when they pass.

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:53 pm
by Vman777
Looking good!! :D

Dougster - A little trick that might help you cut out the motor well curve in the aft.

Do the layout in the inside (will explain why in a minute). Make a template out of no less then 1/4" ply of the layout, this way you can get just right being that it will be easier to sand and such not being on the boat. Then cut out the area on the boat about an 1/8" outside the lines. Here is why you layout the lines inside. Take the template and place it inside and line up with the layout lines, either clamp it (which means you will have to move the clamps when make a 2nd router cut) or just temp. screw the template (countersink).

Then from the outside use a router with a straight bit with a bearing on the end, adjust the router bit so the bearing rides on the template edge. Then go to town. You will have a nice finished edge, with little sanding to do.

Hope this helps :)

David

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:43 pm
by davidtx
Vman777 wrote:Looking good!! :D

Dougster - A little trick that might help you cut out the motor well curve in the aft.

Do the layout in the inside (will explain why in a minute). Make a template out of no less then 1/4" ply of the layout, this way you can get just right being that it will be easier to sand and such not being on the boat. Then cut out the area on the boat about an 1/8" outside the lines. Here is why you layout the lines inside. Take the template and place it inside and line up with the layout lines, either clamp it (which means you will have to move the clamps when make a 2nd router cut) or just temp. screw the template (countersink).

Then from the outside use a router with a straight bit with a bearing on the end, adjust the router bit so the bearing rides on the template edge. The go to town. You will have a nice finished edge, with little sanding to do.

Hope this helps :)

David
I've seen Dougster's boat, but I'm having a hard time remembering details on that part of the boat. Is there enough room to trim the opening with a router from the topside?

other David

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:00 pm
by Vman777
Just looked at Spokaloo's
Image

I see that the opening goes all the way from side to side.

No biggie, just do the layout out from the outside, and lay the template on the outside instead of the inside.

Only difference will be in the router bit, need a router bit with the bearing that is above the cutting edge instead of at the bottom.

Dougster - you can also do a rough cutout first, but stop before the curves at the top, then do the template thing, which will be just for the top to get nice curves and a horz. straight line.

Then go back and router the 2 vertical side with the router.

davidtx, I was talking about the "false transom", see the pic above.

David

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:57 pm
by davidtx
That picture helps. I thing there is a solid floor just ahead of his transom that needs cutting too and that's what I was concerned about having enough clearance next to the motorwell sides to use a router. Using a template and a bearing guided router bit should take a lot of the fear out of cutting that hole in the transom.

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:46 pm
by Spokaloo
I marked mine out from the inside using a piece of wood with a pencil hole 3" from the edge. Using this, I marked out the requisite line, got under the boat, and drilled holes at these lines. I then got outside, and played a stressful version of connect the dots.

Image

Image

Image

Then, coating and fairing was necessary....

Oh, okay, this is just for my ego. Look at that layup!

Image

The full text and the complete set of photos can be seen here:

http://buildingnina.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... nding.html

E

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:51 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for all the thoughts guys. I own a router, but have no skills with it and fear the damn thing. I've botched a couple things fooling with it. I barely visualize the template idea if done topsides. I don't get how the bit works once flipped, from the bottom. I don't see how the bit follows the template cutting from the bottom, but will "ponder" it a bit. Spoke cut it freehand, skill saw for the straight, jigsaw for the curve. Simpler, but more risky. I did cut the front frame hatch seen in the pic from the stern freehand and felt satisfied though. I like the template idea Vman but fear the router. You fool with a router much Dave?

Has time to ponder Dougster

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:59 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, get some confidence with the router before you attempt a job like this, you will hate yourself if it wanders off course because you went in the wrong diretion when following the template, the skil saw and sabre saw will do you just fine, keep your heart rate down tool A router is a great tool but you must know how to use it. Take your time.
Daddy

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:06 pm
by davidtx
OK, it looks like you need to cut it from the outside. I think that if I was going to cut it with a router, I would cut a template bigger than the opening and run the router inside the template. That way if you do wander, you just wander into waste material. OTOH - doesn't look too tough to do it the way that Spokaloo did.

Dougster - were you planning on another flip before cutting? I can see cutting the transom with the boat upright, but cutting the bottom from underneath isn't my idea of fun.

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:29 pm
by Vman777
Dougster when you asked
You fool with a router much Dave?
not sure if you were referring to me or davidtx.

No need to fear a router, router is by far is better for detail work then a jig saw, both can be dangerous.

Router rules are simple for the most part, confusion comes mostly from which direction to take the router.

Using a router by hand with no template or some kind of jig or something to run the bearing against, you will always run into trouble.

Using a jig saw by hand takes very good hand and eye, which takes more practice then a router.

Ok first which direction to go, this drawing should help some.
Image

Just remember when using a router by hand:
Outside - counter clockwise
Inside - clockwise

All the edges you would be cutting for the Well area (false transom/bottom) would be considered "Inside cut" so you would go clockwise with the router.

The nice thing about using a router with something to ride against or using a template, is pretty much not messing anything up, where as with cutting free hand with a jig saw, can mess up big time.

I use a router for all most all detail work or a laminate trimmer (smaller base), but use a jig saw to do the rough cut out.

I will have to draw something up for you dougster to show what I mean about the template.

You will need 1 ea. of these type of bits
Bearing at bottom
Image
Bearing at top
Image

or just go with one that has the bearings top and bottom.
Image

I'll get back to you asap on the drawing on the template thingy.

Oh by the way dougster are you still considering a pop top for the cabin?

David

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:56 pm
by davidtx
Vman777 wrote:Dougster when you asked
You fool with a router much Dave?
not sure if you were referring to me or davidtx.
Excellent write-up, David. I think Dougster was asking me because I live about a 1/2 hour from him and recently visited his build. David clearly has more experience than I do, but I'm comfortable with one. It wasn't always that way, so I understand your concerns. I was out in the shop cutting dados in a new router table cabinet tonight. And in answer to an earlier question from Dougster - my plywood is being delivered tomorrow - woohoo!!!

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:13 pm
by davidtx
And if you decide to use the router, let me know, I'll be happy to come help.

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:16 pm
by Spokaloo
The only work I did on the inside is drill work. The saw work was all exterior, and it was easy.

E

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:00 pm
by Vman777
Spokaloo - not sure if what you said is referring to what I said about a "inside cut". What I am talking about is when you do the actual routering.

Think of a counter top, the outside edge is considered a outside cut, router direction is counter clockwise.

A sink cut out, is considered a inside cut, router direction is clockwise.

What I am talking about doing wouldn't take more then a 1/2 hour to do the whole thing, except layout and making the template, which wouldn't take long. Main thing about using a router is getting a clean edge with very little sanding to do. Using the jig saw for rough cutout is fast, don't have to worry about cutting into something.

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:05 pm
by Spokaloo
Dave the router technique is rather effective, handy, and clean. Makes nice cuts, etc. Id do it if I had a big hp router.

All is clear.

E

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:29 pm
by Vman777
Spokaloo - Yeah a nice 2 1/2 to 3HP is real nice. A Porter Cable 3HP would plow right through like is was butter :) You can do it with a 1 1/2HP router, just have to go slower.

For myself, I would probably just do most by jig saw, since I can cut a curve pretty good, but when I really think about it, might as well do it with the router.

Average person who doesn't do a lot of woodworking, most likely does not have the skill or patience to do precision cuts, mostly because they just haven't done it enough to feel either confident and or aquire the skill. But like anything else the more you do something the better you get at it, well at least for most people :lol:

Hate to say it, but even I practice on a piece of scrap from time to time, especially if it is something I haven't done before or it's been awhile since I have done it. Mostly to get the feel of the tool again.

Can always do another piece of scrap if you mess it up, but you can't really do another finished product, well you can but that would be a repair job.

David

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:03 pm
by sds
A few router tips, FWIW.

If using a small router for template work, one option is to do a rough-cut with a jigsaw on the waste side of the line. That way the router only has to shave the edge off.

Also, if using a template, make sure it has enough width to fully support the router + rooms for clamps. Trying to balance a router on a skinny edge is a recipe for a poor cut.

Since I only use the router once in awhile, I forget which way to cut. I always remember that the bit should be cutting into the wood, not backing through it.

Scott

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:12 pm
by Dougster
You guys are great. Vman, your diagrams made it clear for me, but I still lean to the skill saw for the straight and my Bosch jig saw (which I have come to trust a bit lately) for the curve. Heck, I could always practise a time or two inside the actual line. I could screw a straight edge rail to the inside of the cut, the trash side, for the straight as well. Plunge cut with the skill saw and go, that's what I did with that front A frame cut out. The Jig saw blade fits in the skill saw kerf, but not vice versa. It just would be cool to use the router, since I haven't much, but Daddy's point about going with a familiar tool for an important cut makes sense I guess. Oh yeah, and boy is that a picture perfect layup Spoke. No way mine'll look that good I'm thinkin'. My only honeydo for tomorrow is to get my holiday haircut, then I'm gonna dig around the scrap ply pile and see about ripping some rubrail sections. I'm wondering how long they need to be? I know I have some that are a full 8', but surely not enough. Thanks again for all the input. I'm gonna use that router before the build is over, wait and see.

Says happy holidays to all you guys Dougster

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:43 pm
by Daddy
All the best to you too Dougster!!
Daddy

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:34 am
by Spokaloo
I guess I may still have some habits left over from my attempt at mechanical engineering school......

Doug, I had randoms in my rubrail from 5'-8'. It really doesnt matter. Just have enough clamps! I had some gaps and humps and nastiness, regretted not having enough clamps.

Using a roundover bit on your rubrails, consoles, seat edges, etc is a great use for a router. 1/4 roundover bits with bearings are pretty handy. All mine were done with a ROS and a hand plane, which is a little more time consuming!

Have a good 25th!

E

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:56 am
by Dougster
A good 25th to you too Eric. Good point on the future use of my router. I'll always be afraid of it if I don't start using it. I know about Mech. Engr. school, and they don't teach good craftsmanship like that. I'm thinking you learned that on your dime.

Wishin' you heat in your shop for Christmas Dougster

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:53 pm
by Vman777
Dougster - if you still need me to draw up something on how to do the cutout with a router and template, let me know. If you are ok with doing it by jigsaw, then I will not do a drawing.

David

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:26 pm
by Dougster
Hey thanks a lot David (Vman), but don't use your time on that, I'm going with the circ and jig saw. I can do it, there are only two curves and the rest is all straight. Might rig up some straight edge clamps, I'll see. Your are very kind to offer though and I appreciate it. I will use the router on the rubrail/deck I think, and need to practice with it a bit. I have some epoxy ordered and am slowed down a bit this week, waiting on it to finish the rubrail. Then I'll rig some sort of cradle for the big flip prior to fairing, motor well cut, and graphite/epoxy coating the bottom. Miles to go, but it's a fun trip. I am very interested in your ideas for the pop top. It looks good to me and could be very functional, but I don't know enough about available hardware to rig such a thing. 'Course that's a ways off, but I'll get there.

Grateful to have resources like you and the rest of the guys on this project Dougster :)

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:57 am
by Spokaloo
Just an extra tidbit Douggler...

When I cut the bottom panel flush with the clamping board/transom, I cut it within an inch or so with the circ saw doing a plunge cut, then I finished it with my japanese pullsaw. Much cleaner, takes just a tiny bit more time, and MUCH more control.

E

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:02 pm
by Dougster
That gives me some confidence Eric, 'cuz it's what I've been thinking. No way I want to plunge cut that thing at just the right angle exactly flush against the transom. I have one of those pull saws you're talking about and quite like it, so I had thought, heck, I'm gonna cut that line real proud and finish slow and easy with the hand saw. Think I ought to wait and cut it after I fair the bottom right there? Seems like it may be easier to fair with it there; not sure though. How's the finish work going with your Nina?

'bout ready for happy hour Dougster

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:10 pm
by Spokaloo
I faired the boat before I cut the hole. It is easier, but you have to be cognizant of where the cut line will be. I held off on fairing where th cut was, so as to save a half gallon of epoxy. Im cheap that way.

Finish work? It snowed 4" here last night when it was forecast to not snow. I skied for 4 hrs, grocery store, errands, then came home and shoveled. Took over an hour to get it all. I think Ill just have dinner, but thanks!

Im in a holding pattern on her because of the weather. Its really been a pain because I can't get the epoxy to cooperate when its below 40 degrees. A little hour project here or there goes down, but until we thaw out a little, Im afraid shes stuck. I might work on that windshield thing though. Oh and the 5 different projects I promised to finish when the boat was done last summer.....

E

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:32 pm
by Dougster
Well, fair enough :) Sounds like you got stuff goin' But out of loyalty to the Nina design you gotta keep your head in the pop top cabin game. You and Vman may be enough get me through it. I'm on my own there, no blog to review, so stay with me with the consultations 8) And man that cold you got is too much for a no heat shop. You gotta put that good brain of yours on the problem. I mean, hell, you invented the Passat Clamp! If I lived nearby I think I got enough hot air to help you out, but as it is...

Advises just burning fossil fuel Dougster

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:01 pm
by WacoMartin
Hey doug, glad to see that you are moving along on your project. I was just spending some time and started reading this thread. On the first page of this thread you mentioned your dissatifaction with the change in the Boatbuilder Magazine. I am glad to see that someone else noticed the change. It seems to me that this change occurred about the time that the cover went to color. Before that it seemed to have a lot of useful articles but now it seems to have developed an affinit for tool review, book reviews etc. I will keep subscribing--got to fuel this addiction of mine--but I was glad to see that I wasn't alone in noticing the change. Thanks fo letting me get that off my chest.

WacoMartin

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:33 pm
by Dougster
Hey Waco, how you doin? I remember that comment of mine and still feel that way. It did seem to change with the gloss color cover. At the same time the quality of pics inside the mag are awful. Black and White; Dark and Fuzzy. I don't get it. I used to love the thing but now just look through it quickly and a little sadly. Looks ok on the outside, but delivers less inside in my opinion.

Not judging a book by its cover Dougster

Building a Cradle

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:07 am
by Dougster
Been too long since I had any progress to report, but I did finally finish the rub rail. There was a wicked S shaped wobble in the port sheer but after foolin' with it enough, through clamps and the three layers of rub rail ply, it's ok. Here's the last layer, then the finished rail:

Image

Image

Now here's yesterday's effort building the cradle. It still needs one more vertical piece on each side, going up to the height of the ears, then a horizontal across them. Hope 2x2s are big enough. I will do three of these, spaced semi equally, then tie 'em together with more 2x2s. I'll post a pic when I get there. Thanks to Wobblylegs for the notch idea. Notice mine doesn't fit so well as his! Hope things look ok so far. It's a pleasant task, making sawdust instead of sticky drips :)

Image
Rockin' the cradle Dougster

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:11 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
Looks good Dougster! Glad to see you back on her. She looks proud and ready to flip. That cradle should make it a breeze.

Huck

BTW-it has been to long...don't let her go!

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:08 am
by davidtx
Dougster - why do you keep telling me that you aren't very handy? That rubrail looks really sweet and so does the cradle. When are you going to be ready to flip? I'll be happy to run over and help but Nina on her belly so you can rub her back!

Thinkin' that's gonna be a lot of fairing...
-david

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:58 pm
by chicagoross
Cradles look pretty slick, Dougster, should be no worries on the flip. Glad to see the update!

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:13 pm
by robbiro
Go Dougster :!: :!:
She's really looking sweet. Nice clean rub rails and good idea on the cradle. Nice notches :D Keep us posted on progress as you do so well 8)

Keep on Buildin'

Robbie

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:15 pm
by Cracker Larry
That looks great, Dougster :!: Nothing wrong with that :D

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:40 pm
by Daddy
Oh Dougster, wait til you start fillin that weave. There will be days but when you get past that its all downhill and smooth sailing. :D
Daddy

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:00 pm
by Dougster
You guys help me feel it. Thanks for all the good vibes, which, as I hear it, will be much needed come fairin' time. That's new to me, but, as I understand it from others, is a time of reckoning. We reckon as well as ponder down here in Texas so I guess I got mine comin'. I'll be sure to whine and moan here for solace. Maybe read the book of Job as I go (it has been a VERY long time!). Gotta flip her first though, so I did continue on with the cradle, but not enough to post yet. I'm pushin' on that, so pics will come. It's new to me and I hope I build it strong enough. I marked the the motor well today a la Spokeman's tip (drill a hole the prescribed 3" in a block of wood, stick a pencil in and run her down the stringers as indicated). Come time to drill the little guide holes from the inside out, so as to have them there on the bottom as markers after the flip, I used the same block as a drill guide. Made 8 holes in the hull, tryin' not to think about it. Toward the end Nina got nervous and wanted to know what I was doing! Told her just a little shot, no worry, I'm like a doctor and all, etc. Thought better about explaining the whole motorwell bottom cut out thing 8O Might have got her agitated and she's not even wrapped up in her cradle yet. Not worried about her though, as I figure she'll be enjoying having her bottom rubbed way longer than I do! Well, womens take maintenance.

Been with 'em and without 'em, and prefer with 'em Dougster

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:51 am
by Spokaloo
Patient and persistent.

Lay your filler with a firm hand and get it smooth on the first try. The smoother you lay it, the less work you produce for yourself on the sanding side.

When longboarding, sand until you lose your ambition. Sand another 30 minutes. At this point, get out your pencil, find the spots that need attention, circle and mark as necessary, then leave. When you get back to it with a fresh back and stamina, you will be able to pick the board up and get to work right off.

Heavy grit makes fast work.

Stiff boards for flats, semi-stiff boards for curves.

Change paper often. Have a wire brush to clean it a few times before you change it.

When you feel overwhelmed (yes, when), take a day off. This is the phase that the majority of projects die in. Many boats are available unfinished, halfway through the fairing phase. If you are heavily burnt out, go fishing. Imagine yourself fishing in your new boat when its done. After a while, you will be ready to go back to it.

ENJOY IT!

E

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:34 pm
by Dougster
Movin' on with this cradle thing. It's kinda growing as I go:

Image

Image

I'm thinkin' after I flip her to label and disassemble it so I can more quickly put it back together to flip her back. Next pics will hopefully be of the full cradle/cage contraption. It's been kinda fun building it; hope it'll be strong enough. Those are mostly 2 x 2's with 1/4 inch ply gussets. I'll have more gussets and bracing when I'm through of course. Nina seems to like it, says it's kinda like a hug.

Gettin' Nina in the mood Dougster

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:43 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, take some 2x4s and screw them to the ears. Cross brace those with another 2x4. This will be a little cheap insurance in the event that your 2x2s get a little moody on you while your flipping.

Just a thought.

Im excited to see her faired out and with a big hole in her transom!

E

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:55 pm
by Daddy
I gotta agree with Spok Doug, beef it up a bit more it will be too late when you get half way flipped, looks great though and these hulls are pretty light so you are probably OK, but a little insurance....
Daddy

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:02 pm
by Dougster
"Where's the beef?" Good advice. I will put in more bracing, esp. around those ears. There will be three of those cradles like the one seen in the second pic, hooked up with each other. More gussetts too. I'll post a pic before the big flip day. :)

Guessin' Nina wants a big old bear hug Dougster

Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:06 pm
by Dougster
Here's a little more progress. The cradle is becoming a cage:


Image


I'll add a bunch more diagonal bracing and gussets till I start feeling safe. Nina doesn't get the cage thing and I explained how it was to keep her safe inside so she wouldn't hit the ground when flipped. She wanted to know what "ground" was and had a hard time understanding my explanations until I said ground was "not water". This horrified her and she insists that I keep adding bracing. Nina doesn't like the concept of ground, which is of course understandable and even admirable.

Tryin' to keep Nina happy Dougster

Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:29 pm
by TomW
For Nina Water VERY GOOD, :D Wood Good, :) ,Ground Not Good :(

Tom

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:31 pm
by Vman777
oh boy getting ready for the BIG flip!!
:)

Flippin' Party

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:35 pm
by Dougster
Well, it feels so good. Nina rolled over like a naughty girl and I love her for it. Got the cage finished and ready. Put some pork butt in the smoker the night before. All morning my little blues' rock band rehearsed. 'Bout noon DavidTx showed, then the rest. We had 10 guys and one of 'em is a former marine. Only got one good arm for the time being, but, ... marine.

Pulled out into the drizzle (Nina said "what is that nice stuff"), rolled her and put back home. Then ate some pulled pork. Here's pics.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Dougster's knackered, beers drunk up and porks ate too. It's a mean old world, but sometimes, with a little help from my friends...

He had a good day Dougster

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:15 pm
by Spokaloo
Congrats on the el-rollo! Thanks David for showing how great this forum can be!

Lookin forward to seeing you fair the boat. LONGBOARD!

E

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:24 pm
by ericsil
Nice job. That hull looks a lot bigger next to a person than it does looking at the study plans. Are you planning to paint the hull straight up, or tip it over some when the time comes?

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:34 pm
by chicagoross
Congrats Dougster! It fun when you have a different view to look at for a while. Save that cradle - looks like it would be good protection if you want to put Nina in a container and ship her!

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:46 pm
by robbiro
Way to go Dougster :!: :!: :!: :!: :D :D :!: :!:
She is looking great and really being a good girl. Glad that you had a friendly party to flip her over and pulled pork would have gotten almost any of us to help. You are inspiring and hope that the next step goes smoothly.

Keep on Buildin'

Robbie 8O

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:52 pm
by davidtx
Dougster -

It was nice meeting your band and the other members of the flipping crew. The smoked pork was excellent! I sure am glad I don't have to fair that girl!

-david

p.s. more pictures on my blog

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:16 am
by Cracker Larry
Great job guys! Wow, that's a big boat, Dougster :!: My arms hurt just thinking about fairing it.

Glad to hear you chose the pork. I was worried you might feed Texas brisket to the crew :P

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:39 am
by tech_support
:D Big step. Congrats :!:

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:26 am
by TomW
Beautiful job Dougster. Like the crib! Cradled her like a baby. Sounds like the Que went over well. Have fun on step two.:D

Tom

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:47 am
by Spokaloo
im thinking Doug needs to come up for my launch party and cook for everyone!

Ill let you drive her first...


E

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:22 pm
by Daniel Huckleberry
Great work Dougster, et als!! Looked like a beautifully uneventful flip! I think I can smell that pork as I'm readin.'

Can't wait to see that girl wet (all puns intended)!

Huck

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:12 pm
by Dougster
Well I'm thankin' everybody for the good cheer. Eric, when is that launch party? :) Sure would be fun but it's a long way. I did smoke a pork butt, not a brisket and I thought about you Larry and made a mustard vinegar sauce. We had 10 guys and they left me enough for a meager little taco to take to work today. Nina's sittin' pretty, bottom up. I can delay the fairing torture wrack awhile with the motor well cut out project. Probably take a month of walkin' around lookin' at it. Also, I'm thinking the skeg would benefit from more tape and a metal shoe. Anything to stall that fairing. That cradle was maybe a little overbuilt but that's ok by me. I kept seeing flaws in it in my mind and adding more braces. I'm takin' pics of it and labeling everything before I take it apart so it'll be easy to put back together for the final flip. Truth is, trouble and time though it was, it made the flip a 10 minute piece of cake and I now would not be afraid to try it on a larger boat. I owe somebody here a thanks for his tip on cutting notches on the vertical side pieces to fit around the rub rail. When cinched up tight they really gripped the boat. Was that Wobblylegs? Dunno but wish I did, cuz his pics and tip helped considerably. A year and a half into this project and it's still fun. 'Course sanding is another thing. One day this week I'll start making a couple of long boards, one stiff and one flexible. I already ordered the sandpaper and it's sitting ready.

Still feelin' pretty good about the whole thing Dougster

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:09 am
by Cracker Larry
Still feelin' pretty good about the whole thing Dougster
8) That's what it's all about :D

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:04 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Nice looking boat and a sturdy crew too :!: I enjoyed looking at the photos of the flip. Looks like you have a Texas sized garage to build her in also. :D
Good luck and fairing mercy from Florida.......Richard

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:59 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Richard. I am lucky with my shop space. It's 26' square and separate from the house. The building codes here specified an enclosed garage so I put the garage door on it, even though that ain't no car parked in there :) I just spent a half hour foolin' with scrap for long board material. I know to make a 1/4" for the flexible board. Should I go with 3/8" or 1/2" for the stiff? No diff? I have both scraps. BTW, I forgot to answer you Eric. I haven't planned on painting the hull till I flipped her back. I am gonna do the graphite bottom thing. Now, since you asked me, I begin to wonder, maybe the sides would be easier to paint like this, while she's bottoms up...? What do folks think?

Pickin' through the scrap pile Dougster

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:51 pm
by Spokaloo
I definitely reccomend painting downhanded (while shes upside down). MUCH easier. You can cheat like me, if you want, and just get the topside and bottom paint in the general vicinity while shes inverted, then follow it up when you get it completed by putting the waterline on with a sharpie while shes IN the water.

Makes the drippiness less drippy. Keeps the trailer and the forehead cleaner.

Also, I liked having a 1/4" longboard, a 3/8" longboard, and a solid 1" hardwood board.

E

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:34 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Dougster, Eric is right bottoms up is the the best way to paint her. I did some painting both ways (took mine off the trailer though). Fewer runs and easier to see what you are doing.

What type of paint are you using? I did the roll and tip method to start with then wound up spraying my boat. It's mucho better IMHO. :wink:

I really like the hull design on your boat, but I don't know how I could hide one from the misses. :doh:

Richard

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:27 pm
by Dougster
Well "downhand" makes sense so I better think about paint. I lean toward S3 or Sterling. I'm no painter and have never sprayed. 'Course I've never done most of the steps so roll and tip or spray are both on the table. Eric--re the waterline, I've been thinking bring the graphite bottom up to the sole or a little above as black seems a good border for most colors. I'm wondering about just bringing the graphite up to the sole and then start the paint. I don't wanna have to go back with the sharpie and then try and paint over the graphite or graphite over the paint. You'll be launched before I get there and I'll see where your sole comes out relative to the water line. Sure would be best if my sole was above the line enough for true scuppers, but, we'll see. What paint did you use Richard?

Still in the slow lane Dougster

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:10 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Dougster, I used S3 on my boat. Sticky who helped design the XF-20 used Sterling when he built one of the first XF boats. You should email Ken or talk to him about paint. He really has a bunch of good ideas and a world of experience building boats.

I am new to boat building but I have been spraying wood with poly, lacquer, and conversion varnish for over 20 years. The water based linear poly paint is the hardest paint I have ever used to get a perfect job without runs. Put it on very thin and use bunches of coats. I put on 8 coats of top coat and really could have put on three more. My friend Jeff and I used some automotive techniques to wet sand and buff that made the S3 come out pretty good in the end.

The one issue I ran into with the deck paint on my boat was the extreme gloss of the S3 shows every imperfection in the no skid. I would use Brightside on the deck because they make a flattening agent to kill the gloss. LPU paint does not have a compatible flattening agent that I know of or could find. I got around the gloss problem of the deck by painting my boat at 4am and pushing her out into the foggy morn. :D I could do a heckuva lot better knowing what I know now. :doh:

Richard

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:16 pm
by Spokaloo
Kirby paint is semi-gloss. Try and find my blemishes...

:lol:

There is something to be said for shiny paint, and there is something to be said for flatter paints. Also, rolling and tipping seems, to me, to get the best results for the ardent amateur. There is a good deal of technique that goes into shooting LPU's, and you need to really put a ton of coats on. With the oil enamel I used, 2 coats buttered her up nicely.

E

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:01 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Eric, the type of paint you use on your boat has alot to do with the climate in which the boat resides. In Florida and Texas I believe that a good grade of marine paint would be a prudent idea. Other paints may work great in Alaska or Oregon but I would not use them here.

As far as spraying the S3 is thinner than latex house paint. An HVLP cup gun will do a good job. The first guy that sprayed paint was an ardent amatuer.

Likes boats but hates paint brushes Richard :lol:

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:26 am
by Spokaloo
Well, Id have to say Kirby is a pretty good marine paint:

Image

:D

Its a ship's paint from WAAAAY back.

Agreed though that HVLP sprayers make the project doable.

E

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:34 pm
by gk108
Spokaloo wrote:Its a ship's paint from WAAAAY back.
So... Most of the wooden boats painted with that paint have rotted away? :P

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:54 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Eric since I have to admit I don't know much about Kirby paint I decided to do some research on the paint. The low gloss formula is something I am interested in. I did a Yahoo search on the paint and I found their website. I went to their product section and the various paints had no links to performance, application, or suggested usage. The word hull was mentioned in one paint type colors listed were black and white. Maybe I missed something? Perhaps I got the wrong website. Please post a link that has MSDS info, voc content, application tips and paint composition. Dougster, sorry for the threadjack. :lol: Still hate rollers and brushes....

Richard

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:30 pm
by Dougster
It's no thread jack for me Eric. I'm all ears (well, eyes I guess). I have read a lot about Kirby over on the Wooden boat forum, and it has it fans for sure. One appeal of it for me was something your said, Spoke, re that it touches up easily. That would be nice to just dab on the dings until time for another paint job. Wonder how it would hold in our heat and sun? Anybody for Texas use it?

Hears they got lots of color choices too Dougster

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:25 pm
by Dougster
Well here she is, all turned and the cradle removed. She's sitting level (I hope) on her stringers. The second pic shows one of the three stringer supports underneath. Next step is to cut out the motor well and maybe add another piece of biax tape to the skeg. There is only one layer of tape on the skeg/hull joint now and I'm a bit uncomfortable with that. Couldn't find in the plans if two are required or not. It's a big skeg so lotsa leverage on it. Dunno for sure. Did you use two layers of biax tape Eric? She looks pretty good with the cradle gone. Really I can't believe how long it took me to get her turned and ready for the next step. Next time will be much quicker though, as I carefully labeled the cradle when I disassembled it and left it in sections as I could. Should go back on quickly, or at least quicker. So...cut the motor well, fiddle with the skeg, and FAIR 8O

Image


Image


Cruisin' the slow lane Dougster 8)

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:46 pm
by chicagoross
Glad your project's moving again! Very impressed with your support structures - mine look like they're temporary, yours look like you're thinking maybe make a few dozen more ninas when this one's done! I almost built the Nina too - it sure looks like a much more complicated project than my simple little HMD, especially with the multiple flips!

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:56 pm
by Dougster
Nothin' easy about the HMD and I admire the design. In fact I have thought about the HMD 19 or a little more for a next build. I would love a slow boat to China displacement hull with comfortable berths for two on a long weekend. Regarding my build, I over built the supports probably cuz I'm skeered. Crawlin' around under something that heavy makes me timid. Plus, I may be crawling around on top of her fiddlin' with the skeg and fairing. So praise the lord and pass the two by's and lag bolts.

Not ashamed to be a skeered Dougster :)

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:35 am
by Spokaloo
One layer for me Doug...

And during both flips, she sat unsupported in the grass leaning on her chine and the skeg, with no problems. Don't sweat one layer, Jacques overdesigns these things for us backyarders.

Looks like its time for you to fair Mr Doug! Get that filler out and get to work! Maybe in a month or two we can talk about cutting a huge hole in your beloved hull.

Ill have some pretty pictures on my thread coming up in a day or three, we poked our heads above 60 degrees this week.

E

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:08 pm
by topwater
Looking good dougster.
That cradle looks stronger than the trusses in my
garage 8O It looks like you could put three feet
of snow on nina and she would hold.

But nina wouldnt like it :!:

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:13 pm
by Dougster
No, Top, you're right, she wouldn't like the snow. She likes her trusses fine though, layin' there steady as stone. Hey Eric, I was planning on cutting the motor well before fairing. Does leavin' that section in maybe help support the long board to fair the area or something? If you went with one layer of tape, I guess I'll do the same, though I'm a mind to put a strip of brass or stainless on it for the occasional oyster reef. Maybe glass the sides of it too, wouldn't want it splitting on said reef. Be hell to replace with the boat right side up I'm thinking. Gonna finish making my long boards this Saturday. I'm glad to hear you got weather to build coming. 'Course, that'll be weather to fish too, so you'll have choices. I've got 5 weeks of hard work left then all summer off :)

Biding his time Dougster

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:30 pm
by Spokaloo
I left it in for fairing so that I had a surface to set supplies and clean blades off on. I think its easier to fair to past the cut, then cut it out, purely because you won't have an edge to fair up against and have stuff fall off of. If you leave it whole, you can fair to a few inches inside the well cut, then when you take the saw to her, you have a perfectly square edge.

Shhh... don't tell anyone but I just finished putting my second coat of interior paint on the LB. Shes a coat of outside and bottom paint away from final assembly. Don't say anything though, I dont have photos....

E

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:50 pm
by Dougster
Your secret is safe with me Spokester :wink:

Knows how to be discreet Dougster

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:56 pm
by TomW
Spoke no pictures! I'm gonna cry :cry: :cry: :cry: :P

Tom

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:03 am
by Spokaloo
When the opportunity (and camera) present themselves, Ill get something posted. I have over-epoxied my camera to the point of ineffectiveness, so I have to get SWMBO's big 30D Cannon out.

E

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:26 pm
by Dougster
Careful you don't hole the hull with that big old Cannon. BTW, I assume you're still using Kirby? I'm still S3 one day and Kirby the next. Just Dunno yet. I hate maintenance so like the idea of S3 being harder and lasting longer. I hate maintenance so like the idea of Kirby touching up easier so get by with that for another year. Plus enamel just sounds easier to apply to non-painter guy.

Tryin' get the fairing mindset going Dougster

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:06 pm
by PaulMcClure
Dougster, I was doing a bit of work on my Invader tonight and painted some bits of teak trim that I had previously epoxied, with S3 WR-LPU Clear Gloss paint. It's the same stuff as the coloured paint, just without the pigment :doh:

It's very easy to use. I thinned it with water to 20%, stirred it in the cup and painted it on with a crappy laminating brush I happened to have lying about. There were initially some brush marks in the film, but I left it a bit and five or ten minutes later the paint film was like a mirror. I'll check in the morning what the finish is like once dried but it really wasn't difficult to use.

The boat has a line of colour about 6" either side of the rubrails which I've flatted back with 120 grit ready for yacht primer. I'll get 2 or 3 coats on over the weekend then flat it back up to 220 for the topcoat. 3 coats of colour (Lopez Blue) and 1 or 2 of Clear Gloss and it should be looking good.

There's a challenge though. My neighbour in the boatshed is a boatbuilder and he's convinced I'll never get a good finish without spraying and reckons I'll ruin the look of the boat if I roll and tip. I'm kind of itching to prove him wrong :lol:

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:09 pm
by Dougster
Well, that's good info Paul. Sounds ok and it's cool to thin with water. I've never tried roll and tip but so what. Give some pics when you're done. Why can't you do as good a job as spray? I read all kinda probs guys have. Orange peel, runs, too thick, too thin, put the hose in ice water, stand on a bible while you spray...well. Anyway,

He's just sayin' Dougster

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:35 am
by Spokaloo
I actually just laid interlux brightsides on the interior. I went unthinned to get nice meaty coats without runs. The first coat went well as the temps were in the low 60s and the paint had good leveling. Unfortunately it was 70 for the brushing portion of my 2nd day and ended up having some brush marks and drying issues. Ah well, whatcha gonna do.

Hoping to have enough time tomorrow to get some time tomorrow to finish the exterior paint (kirbys lightly mixed with penetrol) and bottom paint finished out.

E

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:28 pm
by gk108
Ah well, whatcha gonna do.
I was at the same point with Brightsides on my D15. Joel advised sand the brush marks, thin the last coat ~20% and go for it. The results are pretty good.

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:15 pm
by Daniel Huckleberry
Your results are VERY GOOD, gk.

Huck

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:23 pm
by Dougster
VERY GOOD for sure I'd say. Re System 3 paint, how do I go about getting a color chart? I can't find one to order in the building supplies section. Reading your post Eric, it sounds like temp matters plenty when painting with lpu's. I can crank my little AC overnight and get it down to maybe mid to upper 60's in the morning come summer heat when I hope to be painting. Guess I'm lucky there.

Says since we're building boats we're all lucky Dougster

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:38 pm
by gk108
Thanks, but I sorta feel like luck had a lot to do with that last coat of red. I'm in the same little quandry again on my V10, but after speaking to Joel at the meet, I'm ready to proceed. Trouble is, I seem to have committed myself to building a drum riser this week. :doh:
Dougster, your little AC might be just the right thing if you use the S3. Having a little control over the humidity would probably be an advantage.

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:28 am
by Betowess
Hey Dougster, Spent the better part of a a couple of three hours reading your cool thread last night, and more tonight after tooling around Deception Pass for 8 hours today - checking out boat launches and looking for Mr. Lingcod.

I love the Nina. IMO, she's the prettiest design on the forum and and yours isa fun reading story. Great work and continued goodluck on your build... But my wife says its time for bed, and she's da boss,

Liking this nina, BBQ, brown water, and Neil Young too.
Betowess - who grew up in N. Texas and needs a new shop bad!

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:39 pm
by Dougster
Hey Beto, thanks for the kind words. I lived in Denton a few years, going to school, wearing sandels, backyard BBQ and Lake Texoma on the weekends. In fact I met my wife on a weekend camp out at the Lake. Good times and memories from there. No match for Deception Pass though. And you'll get no arguments from me re Nina's good looks. I really look forward to Spoke's new pictures on his finish out progress. In truth this build a boat thing is a major blast and a pretty big adventure on it's own. I'm stalled right now between work, a little backyard project, and my band's gig this Saturday. But I got a lotta time off this summer and am ready to fair (once I figure out how :) ). I did start gluing up the handles on my two long boards tonight: one is 1/4' and the 6/8". Three feet long. Hope I can push 'em to the end.

Learning as he goes Dougster

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:47 pm
by gk108
Dougster wrote:Hope I can push 'em to the end.
And then push back to the other end. Keep repeating indefinitely until the surface reaches a condition known as gรƒยผdnuff. :D

Hope your gig goes well. Hope it's inside! Our little unofficial debut got rained on during setup Saturday night. Water in the snake had me chasing ghosts in the machine all night. Still beats sitting at home. 8)

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:14 pm
by Dougster
Jeez GK, outdoor gig and water in the snake. Water and 'lectricity don't get along so that sure meant trouble. Somehow that comforts me :) We haven't played out in over a year and I been feelin' antsy. I'm the rhythm axe, lead singer, and wrote about half our songs. The covers are kinda obscure: Leonard Cohen, Fleetwood Mac, Randy Newman... Standing on that center mike, I feel kinda responsible. The band can play great but if blow it, we go down. Hope I don't suck, but you're sure right about beats sittin' home. I'd rather build a boat that won't float that just wanna be 8)

Means to push that long board 'till good 'nuff Dougster

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:01 pm
by Spokaloo
Short people got... No reason.....

E

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:27 am
by gk108
The few times I've been over in Texas the people were real good to the band. Especially the bootleg tapers from around Houston. I like working with bands that are heavy on originals. It makes my job a lot more interesting. :D

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:03 am
by ks8
Dougster...
The covers are kinda obscure: Leonard Cohen, Fleetwood Mac, ...
Are we talking early, really really early Fleetwood Mac? When they were a raw blues band, before the pop rock thing? 8)

I just may dig out that old album tomorrow, but it's not my usual fairing music. What tunes help you push the long board? :)

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:47 am
by Spokaloo
political radio.....

E

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:50 am
by WobblyLegs
Spokaloo wrote:political radio....
Yeah, that would do it!

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 1:59 am
by ks8
... as the dust gets sucked up the vaccuum ... and leaves a nice fair hull. 8)

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:06 pm
by Dougster
Image

Image

Was a good time. Plenty of goofs but the crowd was great (significantly seeded with friends :D ). Biggest hit of the night I think was a reworked version of John Lee Hooker's "Think Twice". Well, I think that was his. Randy Newman's tune went over well too. Good guess with Short People Eric, but no, it was "I'm Guilty". We did about half originals and got good responses. Got home at two a.m. and feel it today, but I did finish up gluing the handles on two long boards this afternoon. After reading todays posts I guess I should wipe down the hull with acetone first? Yeah, it's time to get focused back on the boat! BTW, the brunette's my girl :D

Plumb wore out and feelin' good about it Dougster

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:37 pm
by Betowess
Now I know why there is going to be a phone plug jack on your Nina console. But you might need to pop for an inverter to run the boat's Fender. Looks like you got the ladies dancing.

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:40 pm
by Dougster
That's a Fender Vibrolux, not mine, and no way going near water of any kind, salt or no 8O Maybe I'll leave an old acoustic flea market beater on board. Hey, will you guys check these pics out and advise? The transom has a tiny "V" in it, as can be seen from the first two pics. Right at the transom edge, this V disappears due to the tape. 'Course this V progresses as you move forward. Am I to fair out the first few feet of this V or simply make sure she's level and fair on the fore and aft dimension? The pics should be better. The first two are the port and starboard view of the level about 2 feet forward of the transom edge. Due to the very slight V and the tape down the keel line, both port and starboard chines are about the holy 3/8" off. There is that much space between hull and the level there. You can kinda see it in the two pics. The last pic is right at the transom edge, where, with all that tape, it's level

Image


Image


Image

Hope I've been a little bit clear. What do folks think? 'Course I can try for better pics.

Tryin' to get past a ponder on this fairing thing Dougster

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:01 pm
by steve292
Dougster,
I may be wrong,but from the pics,I think that is the deadrise of the hull you are describing.You need to fair the hull so there is no hook or rocker in it, whch essentially is removing all the hollows in the hull bottom. I used a 6' straight edge along the lines of the hull,which on the FS17 sort of drop away toward the chines from the keel line as you get towards the bow, i.e fore & aft at the transom, dropping away as the deadrise increases.
Hope this helps,
steve

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:30 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, shes warped right to the transom. The shape you see is correct. Fair the boat so that from the centerline to the chine shes smooth. It should only be 100% square right at the transom, just as it shows in the pics.

No worries man.

E

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:18 pm
by Dougster
"Smooth from centerline to chine" and "Warped right to the transom". Yeah, that makes sense to me. I was hopin' that's the story. There doesn't seem to be much hook or rocker, Steve, but surely there'll be some to deal with. Next step then is to wipe her down quickly with acetone and then sand to feather all tape edges with RO. After that, it's Quickfair time, right? Or go with the slurry filler stuff first. Since I used peel ply on the bottom, I'm thinkin' start with Quickfair. Opinions welcomed.


Got his long boards made Dougster :)

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:21 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug Id lay my first coat down with slurry, but thats just my personal preference. I can make that stuff up thick and its a little cheaper. You will have to fill some of your "wakes" where the blade makes little gouges if you use a tape knife, but its worth it to me.

Others use just QF, I guess its up to you!

E

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:42 pm
by Dougster
I've wondered about that slurry thing. What the heck, it's a big boat so I'll try it. I'm sure I'll waste lots learning the process so that way I'll start off with the cheaper stuff. I just ordered a bag of the filler here to give it a try.
Thanks for stayin' tuned.

Tryin' new things Dougster

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:56 pm
by gk108
You'll like the blended filler. Very economical for filling low areas. I like to mix it fairly thick and use it on the first one or two passes and save the QF for the last layers.

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:22 pm
by Dougster
Long time since I've done much, 'cuz of work, company, and etcs. But now I have most of the summer off. Two days work next week, two more the next, then nothing 'till the middle of August 8O Unbelievable :) Anyway, the blended filler came and to celebrate I mixed a tiny batch to see how it works. You're right about me likin' it GK. It's nice stuff and seemed easy to spread with a big drywall tool. I'll try sanding it a bit tomorrow. This was just a little test batch near the keel. There's a very slight rocker caused by all the tape at the stern so that's a good place to start. I also managed to smooth out the underside of my rub rail and put a coat of 'poxy on it. One side (the first one I did) was a mess with dripped gel magic. Didn't sand worth a flip so I went with my beloved heat gun and putty knife. Worked fine, but lots harder than on ez fillet or marinepoxy/wood floor. That gel magic is very tough stuff! Gave me a good feeling. Here's pics of the underside of the rub rail and the little patch of blended filler:

Image

Image

I may use some of the filler underneath the rub rails once I get more experience with it. It sure is good to have time and get back to building. This fairing thing is all new to me, but I got an RO, two homemade long boards, sandpaper to fit, and a positive attitude :) Well, we'll see.

Displacement speed Dougster

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:45 pm
by Spokaloo
Ahhhhhh memories......


E

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:49 pm
by gk108
That looks good. On the left side you can see how the stuff just settles in and fills the weave. You could probably stand to mix it just a bit thicker when you get to the bigger batches. Maybe something like canned cake frosting consistency. More filler means easier sanding, up to a point. After that point more filler means bad batch. There's just enough silica in the filler to make it flow a bit and give it that glossy look after it sits for a while. If you mix too thick, there's no flow action and the filler won't stick as you spread it. When you get it right, it will hang on the sides and not sag. Luckily, in the normal process, you get to practice that on the relatively horizontal bottom so that by the time you get to the sides you are just frosting the rest of the piece of cake. :)

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:07 pm
by Dougster
Well, I got into the sanding thing a bit today. First I fooled around a bit with the RO, but soon went to the long board, which clearly can do a better job. Not an easier job! Thanks to my much vaunted massive upper body strength however, I am able to push the board one, even two minutes before needing a break. 8O God knows how I'd manage were I some over educated, spaghetti armed, liberal psychologist :) Anyway, I got started. I have used almost a whole pound of blended filler and covered less than 1/4th of the hull. Seems like I'm putting it on too thick. Here's some pics:

Image

Image

Notice those darn pin holes in the second pic? I'm using a 14" drywall thingy to spread it. On my last effort (still wet) I tried to keep it thin. We'll see. Oh yeah, and if I was about 4" taller I could reach the hull better. So, well, check out my 4" scaffolding :)

Image

It's great to get started. I ordered more blended filler and 'poxy. After the filler I'll go to quick fair.

Using his massive upper body strength to hoist a cool one now Dougster

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:15 pm
by steve292
Dougster,
To stop the pinhole thing work the filler around in different directions a bit before you finally lay it out."Push" it into the weave & all the small crevices.Use the blended filler to fill all the big bits & the weave, then use QF to finish if you have some.Pinholes will pain you when you paint(ask me how I know :x ), so try to minimise them if you can.
Good luck fella,
Steve

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:58 pm
by Lucky_Louis
Looking fine Dougster. Don't sweat them pinholes yet, too early in the game for that. You're right, looks like your fairing a wee bit thick. Many thin coats are better than one fatty. I love your longboard. What grit you pushing? After my 1st gallon of QF, I started using a 12" steel drywall knife almost vertical to the surface to spread the goo. I used way less goo and had a LOT less sanding to do. Also, I switched from sanding to scraping when I got close. No dust with a scraper and scary fast when it's sharped correctly. The scraper seemed to be the perfect tool for ridges and runs. For example, on the section below I estimate 10-20 minutes with a scraper, 2 coats of fairing, a little longboarding and we're looking at perfection. With the RO, I would have spent 4 plus hours on something like that.

Image

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:09 pm
by TomW
Dougster nice scaffold. Like Louis while I'm 6'3" or so I like using a smaller drywall blade and in fact am using an 10" now that the heat has hit the 90's, but I'm still on the little boat. Hold whatever size you use as verticle as possible sort of like scraping whiskers off your chin, filling in the low spots and leaving the high spots with almost no coat on.

Tom

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:20 pm
by ks8
Thanks to my much vaunted massive upper body strength however, I am able to push the board one, even two minutes before needing a break.
Fun, isn't it? Especially in a 108ร‚ยฐF garage. I can do about two minutes, tops, more like one (preferred) in this heat, but then need to stand in front of the fan for another two with a few wipes. Picked some weekend to do the final fairing. Somehow... your work area looks cooler. Could it be?

Enjoy that longboard. They really do such a better job showing the low spots and taking down the highs. :)

How are you holding the paper on?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:49 pm
by Spokaloo
Definitely do the cabinet scraper! It picks up the "wakes" that are left where the edges of the tape knife are pulled, making longboarding go much faster.

When you are pulling the slurries around, use LOTS of pressure, and pull with some speed. At least that is what worked for me. Learned that slow pulls with little pressure left a thick saggy coat, while a fast pull with high pressure made more even coats at less thickness with fewer wakes.

Oh, and BTW you are in Texas, so get up early, fair till its hot, then nap. Wake up, beer, then get back to it in the evening.

Yeah fairing!

E

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:07 pm
by Cracker Larry
Can't add much to all that Dougster. What they said. It's applied too thick. Use lots of pressure pulling quickly. Don't know why but it helps :doh: Scraper is probably good, I use a plane and a surform sander on the ridges and runs before I think about sanding. A plane will get 90% of it in short order. Curls are nicer than dust.

Sounds like it's hot everywhere in the south. Whew :!: Got to get my insides faired soon myself, and got to sand gunwales tomorrow. Got a fresh case of Corona iced down for the task. :D

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:10 am
by Dougster
Ok, good tips guys. I never thought about the scraper. I'll try that this morning. Also, pulling the dry wall knife quickly. I was drawing it SLOWLY with very low angle. Seems like it's a learning process, like all the rest. Not scary though, 'cuz you can just sand it all back if need be 8O

Takin' his massive upper body strength down to shop in a few minutes Dougster :roll:

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:58 pm
by Dougster
Boy you guys are great. Here's and hour and half's work that would have been three times that or more, 'cuz of the scraper! Dang, I had it hangin' on the wall yesterday and never thought :oops: I also used the last of my filler and the near vertical, fast swipe deal yall mentioned and it seems very much better. Check these curls Larry:

Image

'Preciating you guys Dougster

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:04 pm
by Spokaloo
Lookin great Doug!

Here is a tool for doing your detailed scraping that will make you smile:

Image

They are available at most woodworking shops. These cabinet scrapers have a more detailed edge, are quickly resharpened, and can be used on anything from scraping green epoxy to shaving crossgrain panels.

E

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:12 pm
by TomW
Agree with Spok and you can get them it several different shapes. A couple quick strokes with a hand held diamond sharpener and your set again.

Tom

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:31 pm
by Dougster
I have one like that, didn't try it. In the past I had a little trouble with the corners diggin' in. Never bowed it like in Eric's pic though. The one I'm using is great, but small. I'll dig out the one I have that is like what Eric shows and give it a go in the morning when the fresh batch is cured. Dunno about sharpening it though Tom. I see things called something like "burnishers" or something. Guess thats a diamond sharpener? And "couple of quick strokes" is at almost 90 degrees, right?

Can't push the river, but maybe the long board a little Dougster

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:31 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, hold it at 90 degrees over a stone, get a nice square edge, then put it in your vise and burnish it, if you have a burnisher, or use the shaft of a screwdriver held at about a 45 deg. angle and stroke the length of the scraper to turn that newly sharpened edge over, that is what does the cutting, you should be able to get two good edges, eight if you do all sides of your scraper. Great tool.
Daddy

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:31 pm
by Dougster
Ahhh....! Daddy I've read several descriptions, but yours clicks. I'll sure give it a run when I dull this one. Thanks for the clear description. Tomorrow's a new day, and I would hope, fair.

Fairing Nina Dougster

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:45 am
by TomW
Yea Dougster jsut like Daddy said only I just do mine all in on step in my vise a couple of square with a very fine diamond stone I have and then the screw driver the way my dad taught me. I forgot that step earlier.

Good fainin'

Tom

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:43 am
by Lucky_Louis
Burnishing is what happens after sharpening.

Image

Here's a decent article on the process.

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:33 pm
by Daddy
Great picture Lucky, worth a thousand words. The shaft of a screwdriver always worked for me but I am sure the Veritas one would be better.
Daddy

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:01 pm
by jeremy
I've had pretty good results with this burnisher:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Scrap ... isher.html

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:52 pm
by TomW
Great picture Lucky :D

Tom

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:08 pm
by Lucky_Louis
Tx Tom, but no credit here, I just linked to it from the article :D I never though of using a screwdriver but a pushrod out of a 1948 Ford must be high enough carbon 'cause that's what I use and it hasn't even scratched yet.

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:21 pm
by TomW
A bunishing tool can also can also be called a kitchen steel. Just drag it the the way shown instead of the way you do on you kitchen knives. Same tool differerent name.

Tom

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:00 pm
by Fred in Wisc
Sounds like this cabinet scraper deal really is the way to go.

Stopped down at Woodcraft to pick up a few. Well you know how that goes, $15 for 3 straight scrapers, oh the curved ones are on sale so let's get those too. Better get the Veritas burnishing tool so I get the best edge. And the sales guy says the scraper holder is great, really reduces hand fatigue on big projects.

Why does it always cost a hundred bucks to stop in at the tool store for one little thing.

At least my little girl had a good time there. They have a popcorn machine to keep little hands occupied instead of trying out all the carving tools.

Fred in Wisc

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:58 pm
by Dougster
Great pic Lucky, makes it clear. I found mine and tried without a lot of success to sharpen it. I used a diamond stone that is pretty fine and may need something more coarse for flattening the scraper. Or just spend more than 20 seconds with the fine stone :) Also, may screwdriver was pretty slick. I'll fool with it again. It works well, even dull, though not so well as the one in my picture. Nice to have the greater width though. They are indeed great for drips; no since wasting time sanding those things. Also it seems nice for the end game, smoothing an area that's almost there. I better stay away from Woodcraft.

Stayin' out of trouble Dougster

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:38 am
by Fred in Wisc
Just got back upstairs from doing a little scraping. Wow, these things are great.

I'm not at a stage where all the fancy wide scrapers will do me a lot of good yet. Those should be awesome for fairing.

I think the best bang for the buck is a $10 paint scraper with a 1 1/2" wide replacable carbide blade. Shaves down the edge of woven tape (mine always seems to have a much more prominent edge than biax tape) in about 3-6 cuts. Fast, no dust, pretty quiet. Probably 4 times faster than sanding with a 5" RO.

Not too physically demanding either, lucky for us who ain't all burly and toned like Dougster.

This is my favorite new tool, at least for this week. And it doesn't even have a motor.

Gentlemen, I'd recommend goin' out to buy some scrapers.

Fred in Wisc

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:15 am
by steve292
Aaargh....I,m going to have to buy some now :oops: ......my garage is starting to look like the new yankee workshop....Norm Abrams I'm not mind you. :lol:

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:38 am
by Daddy
Fred, I'm with you on the paint scraper. I use a Red Devil 1 1/2 inch with two edges. Shaves runs, drips, tape edges, just gotta keep it sharp.
Daddy

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:22 am
by Lucky_Louis
Just to be clear guys (and gals), the scraping is NOT the same or a replacement for fairing. We still have to fair as well. Scraping only follows a surface, very quickly and cleanly removing surface imperfections like runs, lumps, bumps, etc. Fairing is a more global process to shape an area, that's where the long board comes in. By design, a long board isn't influenced by every little dip, it works by averaging out the surface, taking only the highest material. The two tools work well in concert. I like to long board, see where the high spots are, use the scraper to remove the high spots, then back to the long board to see how I'm doing. When I had an equal amount of low areas and high areas, I would go back and fill the low areas with some fairing compound, like QuickFair or whatever you're using. This is where the cheap, black spray bomb comes in. If you mist an area, long board it, and wipe down, all the low spots will still be black misted. Apply more filler to the low spots. Repeat until you can't stand it anymore and arrive at the 'good enough for me and the girls I go out with' stage. Then the primer can go on and reveal that it wasn't as fair as you thought it was. But that's OK because by now you're re-energized enough to resume sanding.... Hope this help clear stuff up a bit.

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:44 pm
by TomW
Yeah, guys the miracle of wood working helping in boat building. The scrapers have been around forever. Fred I'd never get anything done if I lived that close to a Woodworkers store.

I also agree with LLouis they are only a tool to add to the menagery of other tools, to make it easier. Also don't forget the quick drying spray paint LL mentions to be used to put down after each coat fairing compound make little freckles. Color is your choice some use black, however I like something BBlue, Bgreen, or Borange whatever shows up on your fairing material best.

Well have fun with your new tools.

Tom

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:47 pm
by Fred in Wisc
It's dangerous here. Woodcraft is just 10 minute away, and Rockler 2 minutes past that. Gotta be careful with those. Especially with all that Fein and Festool stuff on display.

Fred in Wisc

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:59 am
by donk
Good ole Rockler. They got stuff you didn't even know you needed.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:05 am
by TomW
Fred your stabbing me in the heart! :P

Tom

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:37 pm
by Dougster
Hey guys, on the spray/mist deal. I'm assuming, after you long board and find low spots, you gotta sand the paint mist off the low spots before adding fairing mix over them right? I mean, otherwise wouldn't the paint mess with the adhesion of the fairing mix? I worked the past two days and haven't touched Nina, but tomorrow I'm off and am gonna get back to it. More 'poxy and blended filler came today :) I hope to move to quick fair soon.

Pushin' the board a little tomorrow Dougster

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:07 pm
by Lucky_Louis
Ya, sort of. You didn't really paint it, you just misted it, right? One foo foo can should do a couple of TW28's. The cheaper the paint, the better.

I always just did a swipe with a rag soaked in lacquer thinner, paint gone, blush gone, dust gone (brain cells too if you don't wear the filter respirator) :wink:

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:00 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Lucky, I'm just thinkin' ahead. Haven't even finished the blended slurry over the whole hull yet, or put a sharp edge on the transom, although the first 3 feet of the transom is starting to look pretty good. I like the thinner tip.

Wears the darn respirator 'cuz he likes breathing Dougster

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:30 pm
by Fred in Wisc
Instead of spray paint, most autobody supply places carry the real thing. Ask for SEM Guide Coat. Dries almost instantly, lots of black pigment so it shows up great with just a real fine mist, and only about $8 for a spray can.

I use it in the shop for building custom fiberglass car pieces, works awesome.

Fred in Wisc

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:06 am
by TomW
Dougster yes and no there really won't be much left and Shine never mentioned it in his FS12 build where he showed the technique. Maybe we can get an answer from him. As far as I'm concerned Eric's answer makes sense.

Fred wish I knew where there was a auto body supply shop, there might be one 3 hrs from here. Not all of up live in the big city. :P :lol:

Tom

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:29 am
by Fred in Wisc
SEM products are pretty widely available on the internet. Vinyl-Pro in Pennsylvania is probably one of the closer distributors to you.

They also have a "Texture Spray" that lets you get that texture like a dashboard out of a spray can. It's neat when you want a less shiny panel for instruments or whatever.

Tool and material access in the city sure is nice. Unfortunately the people aren't. Well, not like most country people are at least. And you have to live with crowding, traffic, crime, "spacious" 1/3 acre subdivision lots for $80k, and all that crap. Zoning laws. Can't shoot guns in the yard (not even mulching gophers into the lawn with a 12 ga). I'd way rather move back to the country, but my wife would have a heart attack if she had to drive over 10 minutes to the grocery store and Wally's Mart.

I'm all backwoods and out of place here, from almost as far north as o-show. You know that saying about tking the boy out of the country....

Fred in Wisc

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:03 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, dont sweat the adhesion problem.

Spraying a 4 foot long section of a side panel should take 4 seconds or so. Once you lay down a very VERY light mist, then take your longboard to it, you will see that it doesn't require much at all.

Sanding the mist off the low spots would be extremely counter-productive. You want to sand the low spots exactly zero times. Once the high spot meets the low spot, you are done in that spot.

If you have a fight with some high/low spots once the fairing begins, we can do a little Q&A session on the notched-trowel method for low spots.

E

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:05 pm
by Dougster
Well I was thinking instead of sanding down to each low spot, you'd just fill some in with more fairing mix, so get the paint mist off that low spot, put some mix right there, and back to the long board. Notched Trowel? Dunno. I used a notch spreader for gel magic, so I guess I get the idea. Would make for easy sanding I guess? Anyway, I ran out of blended filler today and the hulls only a little over half covered. Too many runs and drips, oh well. Maybe I need to mix it even thicker. I've already used almost 2 lbs of blended filler, and need most of another one! Seems like a lot to me, maybe not. You don't need any guide coat with it, the long board shows the low spots right away. I was thinking of filling them, the pin holes, and other assorted goofs with quickfair after a little scaping, RO sanding, and then long boarding. Then more long board, then guide coat pain mistt, and more long board. Sound right or what? Fairing is my new hobby :)

Was never one for notches in his trowel Dougster

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:22 pm
by TomW
Dougster I would not mix it any thicker. What is happening with the pinholes is you are actually pulling material away from that spot. I mix just as thin as I can to just to keep it from running off the boat. That also lets me keep a thinner layer on it. I don't think I have a pin hole on either side of the bottom that I have done so far. Just a lot more to add to it.

Your schedule sounds about the same as I plan. :D

Fairing is funnnnnnnnn!

Tom

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:52 pm
by gk108
Dougster wrote:Sound right or what?
Yeah, what goes down must come up and you have to keep going around the hull like a spinning wheel.
Or something like that. :doh:
3 lbs of filler doesn't seem like too much for the area you have to cover. Don't forget to order enough to do the inside.

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:15 pm
by Dougster
Don't forget to order enough to do the inside.
Oops....
You mean I have to fair the inside too? 8O :) Well, anyway, since the hull is about 2/3rds covered with the blended slurry I decided to use my much vaunted massive upper body strength (MVMUBS) on the board today. I did 90 minutes of scraping, RO, and long board this morning and went down this afternoon for a second session with only the board. Doing the side panel at the bow is tough as the bottom, near the rub rail is below my knees, but, fortunately, with my MVMUBS I could push/pull the board for twenty, even thirty seconds a go before a break to vac the dust. This lasted a good twenty minutes before my left bicep seized up and I opted for shower, ice tea, ibuprofen, and forum.

Says tomorrow's another day Dougster

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:20 pm
by Lucky_Louis
"Have to" is a pretty strong word. :lol: By the time I hit my interior I was so sick of sanding and fairing that I just plain didn't. I did a quick pass with my R/O sander to knock down any serious spikes or bumps but other than that, nothing. Prime, paint, and splash - that was my motto :wink:

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:24 pm
by chicagoross
"Oops....
You mean I have to fair the inside too? "

I had Dougster's reaction too...

""Have to" is a pretty strong word. By the time I hit my interior I was so sick of sanding and fairing that I just plain didn't. I did a quick pass with my R/O sander to knock down any serious spikes or bumps but other than that, nothing. Prime, paint, and splash - that was my motto "

...and am planning on implementing Louis' solution. Outside will be faired to the best of my less than yacht level abilities and patience; inside, as Louis said, maybe a bit more on super visible areas, probably semi-gloss paint inside, then go fishing. 2 kids and wife and fish blood is what you're really gonna see inside, no matter what you did and how long you took. :lol:

But to each his own: Some like to fair inside storage compartments. I'd rather fish and start planning the next boat... :D

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:43 am
by colonialc19
Chicago, I like your style, kids and fish blood make me smile :D , got 3 bouys myself.

D

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:32 am
by robbiro
Build on Dougster 8)
I think that I agree with you, Ross, D, and Louis about fairing the inside. I am going to do the floor and deck areas in either Tuff Stuff or Kiwi Grip and that may take away the need for a perfect fairing job since it is a rough texture for non slip anyway. I have used the Kiwi on the D5 (clear coat LPU goes on the bottom of it today and then about a week hardening time and it goes to it's owner via an auction at my kids school{AMAZING what you can get talked into by your kids]) I am about finished with and have used the TS on the GF-16 inside the storage areas that needed some sound deadening properties (small though it is). The kids and my wife are ready for me to be done with these projects for different reasons, kids want to go for a boat ride, wife wants her garage back without all the dust :doh: :?: :roll: 8O :oops:

Keep on Buildin'

Robbie

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:57 am
by gk108
:D :D :D
I didn't really mean for you to obsess over the inside. In Eric's blog he devotes a few paragraphs to his minimalist fairing philosophy. In his photos it looks like he did what was necessary to fill the edges of the tape seams and stuff like that on the inside. The end result is an interior that is pleasing to the eye and smooth to the hand. And a lot easier to keep clean. That's the kind of fairing on the interior that I meant. :oops:
The other thing is my opinion that the easiest way to make these boats look as far removed from a production boat as possible is to put a little goop over the glasswork on the inside. There are zillions of boats out there with a crappy chopper gun finish on half the interior. In reality that is no finish at all. The production boats that do have smooth finshed interiors almost always do it by adding another piece of molded fiberglass to the assembly, thereby increasing the weight and price considerably. We can get that same yacht quality interior by spackling a few places before we paint and let the quality plywood take care of the rest. That's all. 8)

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:12 pm
by Spokaloo
A little fairing compound and quite a bit of RO sander. FAR less work than the longboarding expedition on the hull. I did a really nice job on the consoles because I stare at them all day in the boat. One nice part is that the wood, once covered in epoxy (do a good job of rolling and tipping the epoxy and it saves tons of work) is almost self-fairing. Its already pretty stinkin smooth, and it won't take much QF to smooth the limited amount of tape on the interior.

Its a fine line between too little and enough on the interior for me personally. I don't want to look at a crappy finished product, but it only takes a little amount of work to have the surface that you personally look at the majority of the time look decent. I like workboat finishes, because if I have some sort of mishap, they are MUCH easier to fix later on. Drop a wrench or a tackle box and bung it up? No worries, just a little dab'll do ya.

E

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:31 pm
by Dougster
All posts seem like sound advice. I just pushed the board an hour with not a ton of progress. I'm at the bow which is a challenging area. I mixed my first little test batch of Quick Fair (3 oz) and put it on some low spots as well as tried to experiment with making a sharp edge along part of the transom. It's terrific stuff compared to my blended mix, and I look forward to seeing how it sands. Hopefully it'll be cured by this afternoon for a second session. Spreads like butter and didn't seem to want to sag. I notice a "ripple" effect on my cured filler sections of the hull. I pulled the filler with the dry wall knife at right angles to the thread line in the fiber glass. Maybe I'll try going with the lines next to try and avoid that ripple effect, which requires a lotta sanding off the top of the "waves". So far the process is ok, even a little fun, but I'm going at Dougster speed. If one was in a hurry, this could become work pretty quick!

Learning as he goes Dougster

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:21 pm
by Dougster
Well, dang it, 9 hours at 80 degrees and 65% humidity and the mix is not rock hard. It's not tacky at all, but where it's thick I can dent it, with effort, with my thumbnail. Darned if ain't nothing easy. It's nothing to grind these 3 ounces off, ten minutes top, but I need to be able to make small mixes. So now is it my scale ($25 postal scale from wherever) or did I not mix well enough? Jeez, every new material, every new tool, another lesson to learn. Well, maybe it'll be harder tomorrow, but dunno think so. Isn't it supposed to be hard as blended filler/wood flour/'poxy? It sands find like this but I can score it by hand with a putty knife and a little elbow grease. Maybe that's all it's 'sposed to be? I mean, it only has to support paint, but, well, dunno. It's a normal happenstance of course, as I was just becoming pleased with myself.

Figures Noah, not to mention Job had it worse Dougster

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:36 pm
by gk108
Quickfair sort of sets in stages. It gets hard enough to sand in 4-6 hours, then takes another 12 or so to get really, really hard. If it shows signs of getting hard, you are probably OK, just give it a little more time. My poorly mixed batch had streaks of stuff that were just as gooey as it was coming out of the can after 6 hrs.

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:47 am
by Dougster
Thanks, GK, that's hopeful. Still not rock hard this morning though. I'm busy all day so will check it late afternoon. Can't have a transom edge you can dent with a thumbnail. It was a 3 oz batch (one oz hard, two oz resin) mixed by scale not volume, at 11:00 am yesterday. No rush so I'll give it a day before I grind it off. Sure is easy to sand like this though, so if you get a window of easy sanding like this then a hard cure, that'd be great.

Keepin' a positive attitude Dougster

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:38 am
by Spokaloo
Doug I had some mis-mixed stuff, and it didn't have the qualities you are talking about. I could literally remove it from the boat in streaks with my fingernail down to the substrate. The QF I think is a hair softer than the regular blended stuff, but thats anecdotal.

Keep up the good work

E

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:12 pm
by Dougster
Well, I had some time and had a good idea: Read the directions. The can says, yeah, 2 to 1 by volume, but 7 to 3 by weight! In bigger batches maybe you can get away with 2x1, but maybe not in little 3 oz batches? Dunno, but I'm leaving the little bit another day to see. Meanwhile I mixed 10 oz by weight (7 to 3) and spread on the starboard bow, a tough area for me. We'll see.

Fussing along Dougster

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:31 am
by MulletChoker
We also had trouble keeping the ratios' straight, epoxy, gel magic and quick fair all different. We weigh in grams and a quick fair mix of 70g resin to 30G hardner yeilds about 2/3 cup of compound. After quite a bit of trial and (mostly) error with the squeege, we can cover around 2-3 square feet with that batch. Finally got some advice from a neighbor that does auto body work and are now getting good results, still a LOT of pushing that longboard.
We like the workboat finish but it was pointed out that any low spots on the bottom like ripples or weave pattern will pick up marine growth if the boat sits in the water for more than a few days, especially here in the Indian River. The only thing worse than fairing is scraping barnacles!
Keep at it , it's all progress.

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:41 am
by Dougster
Thanks Mullet, sounds like I am headed in the right direction. My 10 oz batch covered about the same area but was more like a full cup of goop I think. I definitely struggle keeping it smooth with the drywall knife. Too many ridges and such but the scraper knocks it down pretty fast. I tried a small mix late yesterday afternoon: 1 oz to 2.3 ozs. I'll check it this morning. That first little one to two by weight is not too good and I'll take it off I guess. The stuff sure does sand nicely. I'll know more in a few days.

Having a fair party Dougster

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:42 am
by Spokaloo

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:17 am
by Dougster
Thanks, Eric, food for thought. I follow that forum but missed the thread. Peppered with typical snooty critic types and irritability, but good pics. What struck me was the "Classic Boat" one that seemed to hinge from the front and only lift up 6" or so. Ventilation is my real interest, not headroom, so that seems clever, and easier than a true pop top. Gotta watch weight if I don't go canvas right? BTW, how's your Nina doing? Where's the waterline? I have blended filler, roughly RO sanded, then quickfaired and sanded a bit more on the starboard side, and blended filler on part of the port side. Hope to finish the port side with the blended and get it quick faired tomorrow or the next day so I can get more dedicated to the sanding. It's a big job, but I'm taking it in little bites: two a day workouts at an hour or an hour and half each :)

Having a lazy morning Dougster

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:43 am
by Spokaloo
Welcome to the most stagnant part of the build...

You realize that the majority of boat projects die in the fairing phase, right?

Nina worked well, the waterline with my motor was a little higher than as planned by Jacques, but not a ton. I cheated a little and marked it by plopping her in the water and drawing marks on the boat (add 6" to give some extra biocide where the waves lap up the sides). Have you decided on a motor?

I think if ventilation is your sole concern, Id try a different solution altogether. Build your windows on the side as removable ones with screen drop-ins. With the windows out, you will have tons of ventilation. I thought you wanted more room, but if that isnt the case, the windows are the perfect solution.

Im actually in the middle of fairing the rowing shell, so we are at exactly the same spot right now. Fair, coat, fair, fill, fair. Fun in the heat, huh?

E

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:09 pm
by Dougster
Hey, Eric, I hadn't thought of removable windows, only sliding, with all their expense and trouble. More ventilation to take 'em out for sure. I'll look for a commercial drop in design, otherwise, I'll ponder, figure, and manage something. Dunno yet, but look forward to being there. BTW, when fairing the transom sharp edge, is Quick Fair hard enough? I know Cracker Larry used chopped glass or some such. What'd you use?

Oh, and no I didn't know so many people peter out on the fairing. I'm determined though, ain't gonna happen here. So far it's not so bad, just doing an hour or two here and there. Play the radio, drink a soda, scrape a little, RO a little, then, brief longboard and vac sessions. I gotta say the long board is tough but you can see it do it's thing. The RO is joy. I popped for the festool with the minivac and, though I wear a respirator, it seems to leave almost no dust. I can see it won't substitute for the torture board completely though.

Got blended filler on the whole port side Dougster

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:08 pm
by Spokaloo
I personally know my boating habits, and built those corners up with heavy filler made of wood dust, silica, and a little talc (cheap and dense). This corner can take a beating, where the fairing fillers are pretty soft. Some people prefer the lighter filler, but thats what I did. On the chines, I went a little lighter with a 80/20 of silica and a little glass balloons.

Doug, in an issue of WB (or was it the small boat issue, either way it was on a Redwing), there is a window setup that I think was designed by Chapelle, using a drop in piece of glass, which was contained in a wood piece shaped like one of those wall-hanging folder holders you see at doctor's offices. The glass or screen was dropped into this holder, then two wedge shaped pieces of wood are placed on the edges to hold it in. The holder piece is pretty simple, and once in place was designed to drain back out through a small hole just below the window.

Its an option, simple, and easy to build with scrap.

E

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:49 am
by Dougster
Good food for thought, though I can't quite visualize your description. I googled Redwing/WB and found the issues I think (starting with 179). I don't have those as I only started with WB a year or so ago. I'll poke around, get ideas, and post them for feedback. No rush. Nice boat Redwing, I have admired her for some time. Might order the WB series detailing her construction just for the good read. Oh yeah, and re the corners, I guess I'll go with something tougher like woodflour/silica.

Got QuickFair in mind today Dougster

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:56 pm
by Dougster
Here's two pics. The first is the starboard side with just blended filler. Note the glass thread lines, that make ridges (I prefer to call them waves :) ) Couldn't seem to avoid them. Irritating. Second pic is with QuickFair on top of blended filler, quickly sanded with RO. Way better. Dougster likes QuickFair. Some long boarding on the starboard bow, with some additional QF resulted in a pretty smooth deal, so hope sings.

Image

Image


Wonder why I couldn't get better with the blended filler? Too thick and wouldn't flow? It still makes a good first layer, just needed to knock off the wave tops and proceed.

Singing a hope song Dougster

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:20 pm
by Spokaloo
SuperDoug, do you have the 2008 Small boats issue? On pg 75, there is an interior shot of the Redwing that you can see the window holders. If not, ill dig through my collection to see if I can find the right issue and scan it.

E

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:25 pm
by gk108
Actually, that's about the results I would hope to get. That second picture looks like you have it under control. QF is pretty expensive if you consider the cost by the square foot, but it's worth every penny when it does what it does. Just keep building hope, 1 layer at a time. :)

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:53 pm
by Daddy
Doug, mix it fairly stiff so it doesnt run, squeegee it on with a firm hand trying to only fill the divits. Blended filler is easy(ier) to sand, I liked it a lot on my boat. After it sets up, next day, use your RO with 60 or even 80 grit to tame the ridges and bumps.
Daddy

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:53 am
by Dougster
Thanks guys, seems like I'm more or less on track. I would use the blended filler again, but QuickFair is the finisher for me, pricey or not. You can spread it pretty thin once the filler is on and the ridges knocked off, like Daddy says. Eric, I looked quickly for the Small Boats mag and didn't find it, but I think I have it. Thanks for the offer to scan the pic but I think I have it and will look harder today. I'll let you know. Today is finish out the Quickfair and sand a little. Also I am feeling the need to put some left over glass on my skeg and order a metal shoe for it, given the oyster beds and skinny water around here. Wish I had done that before I put the skeg on the hull :doh: It's kinda hard to get to now, and a tedious job drilling and 'poxy filling screw holes for the shoe, but a feel good thing once done I guess.

Fooling along Dougster

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:15 am
by TomW
I did an analysis of Quik Fair versus Epoxy/filler mix in the 1 1/2 gallon size for when I submit my order next month. There is only about a $20 difference, one that I think is very tolerable considering everything, ease of use, mess of filler mix, mixing times, sanding, etc.

My .02 :)

Tom

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:34 am
by tech_support
I like to use both (blended filler and Quick fair). For filling in the weave of filling large areas I like to mix my own fairing putty using regular epoxy/blended filler. It allows me to adjust the consistency. When filling a large area of weave, its handy to have a loose mix "slurry" so you can pull it around with a squeegee.

After the weave it filled I go straight to Quickfair, Quick fair is so much easier to sand, it sets up quicker (allows you to get 2-3 fairing sessions in one day - shoulders allowing :) ) and its much smoother under the putty knife.

Joel

P.S.

Dougster, from the picture I would say next time you use blended filler, try putting on less. With the sags, I would say it went on a little too thick. The slurry really should only fill in the weave - not a coating over all the glass.

Also, be sure to knock down the stitching of the cured biax/epoxy before you apply a slurry, that way you are only filling in the little gaps between the fibers (hope that makes sense)

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:58 am
by TomW
Joel, that does make sense, to me also. I assume it is a barely hold onto the boat mix, 30%?

Tom

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:30 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Shine, I think you're right about my mix being too thick and too much. I tried to "knock down the stitches" with my RO, but was a little timid. Later batches of looser blended filler did work better. I get the idea of spread it on thin, don't worry about it, it's a base for the QF. And I was wondering if the filler was all that much cheaper, given the blended filler requires epoxy as well. Thanks for sharing your analysis Tom, it confirmed a suspicion I had. Still, I'd use the filler again, as a quick, thin base. Then the magic elixir, QF :). BTW, I'm down to a few ounces with only the transom to cover. Time to order more.

Be sandin' tomorrow Dougster

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:52 pm
by Dougster
I gotta show you guys this scraper that I have come to love. Replaceable, double sided blades. $8 for the scraper but $4 for the blades. Lineman.com. They have two different radius scrapers as well, that may be quite useful for fillets. I read about them somewhere a couple of years ago and bought one. just now finding out how nice it is. Scraped the port side today, two easy one hour sessions. RO tomorrow, the that nasty old board :)

Image

Sure likes this scraper Dougster

Ironwood shoe?

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:19 pm
by Dougster
Heres piece of iron wood I have laying around, left over by my house builder (it was used on two front porch steps and has lived up to its name). I ripped a bit of this to put on the skeg of the little Devlin dingy I build as a warm up for Nina, and epoxy'd it on as per Devlin's book. What do you guys think about using this instead of a metal piece? Is a quarter inch thick enough or go more? I'm thinking of using a piece of hollow back drilled stainless like I see at Jamestown Distributors from the front of the skeg up to near where the bow eye will be, for nosing up to sandbars and such. What do folks think about the ironwood?

Image


Got sore shoulders from sanding Dougster :)

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:56 pm
by ks8
As per Devlin also, do not make it too thick. Else you might have expansion/contraction coefficient issues different from the rest of the boat, with temperature swings. I think 1/4 inch thick is enough for ironwood, but I have zero voice of authoritative experience. Just going by some other sources. And if it takes a hit and a scrunch, dry it out and seal it again. You know the drill...

Can't go by me anyways... I put that mahogany on there as a Beach Bumper, then couldn't help putting three layers of glass over it anyway! :lol:

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pos=-18552

Glad your fairing is soon done... ks8'ster.

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:13 pm
by TomW
Douster, while the ironwood is tough I would in all honesty just go with all stainless. Or just fiberglass and epoxy, and graphite. The fiberglass/epoxy will be as tough as any wood, especially if you put two layers on.

My .02.

Tom

ks8, Don't know where your getting your getting your wood working knowledge from but as long as the wood is glued together and properly sealed there will be no differential in expansion coeffiecents. Only when woods are not properly sealed will this occur. Epoxy then primer then paint is a pretty effecient sealer.

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:18 pm
by ks8
TomW wrote:ks8, Don't know where your getting your getting your wood working knowledge from but as long as the wood is glued together and properly sealed there will be no differential in expansion coeffiecents. Only when woods are not properly sealed will this occur. Epoxy then primer then paint is a pretty effecient sealer.
I wonder if on a tiller lamination, the ash and mahogany are alternated for more reason than only looks... to produce a more stable final form maybe? Or just for looks? Bottom line I see is why risk temperature related stress when minimizing the risk is so easy with a thinner laminate of a wood like ironwood? It is not only moisture that contributes to expansion. The floors on the SST are on rollers so they can shift as the fuselage heats up and expands, a whole bunch. An LB22 is not an SST, but hot summer asphalt can surely heat the bottom of a boat, especially if a dark color, and you'll need quite some details to convince me that the ironwood isn't expanding at a different rate than the plywood, sealed or not. Will it amount to any stress? Certainly less with a 1/4 inch than with an inch of thickness in a shoe. Or so my limited experience tells me, and Devlin, and other builders, and my eyes that have seen stress cracks at such laminations. But keep feeding me info and experiences, as it all goes into the next project. :)

uh-oh... beating dead horse alert... I appreciate all input on these sorts of things, much of which has guided many decisions in my build, and, Dougster, hope you're not left more confused than when you started. :)

I'm thinking I'll do an experiment with scraps, and post pictures when I get back in a few weeks. But I'll use the mahog or ipe I've got, maybe with pine, and seal it well... something to do while the primer is curing....

Go Dougster... while I string on a new set of Martin Marquiseseses... :)

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:57 pm
by Dougster
Put those same strings on my D35 two weeks ago :) Dunno 'bout the iron bark. Flat bar would be better but I gotta 1)find it 2)buy it, and 3)drill it for screws. Three is the tough one, as I assume stainless doesn't drill easily with a hand drill. Maybe I can find some aluminum flat bar like Cracker Larry, but I still gotta drill it. I guess I could use the pre-drilled hollow backed stainless I found at Jamestown (would then need a total of 18', kinda pricey), but then I suppose I should round the skeg. So then gotta crawl up on Nina with a router or something. Gotta round it if I want to put glass over too. Maybe I should have done this before I put the skeg on :doh: . Ah well. Something will develop.

Waiting on more QuickFair and finger picking in drop D Dougster

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:56 pm
by gk108
Drop D. Easier on the pipes, or what? :D

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:57 pm
by Dougster
Pipes? Nah, what I call drop D (probably wrong) is just dropping the low E string down to D, for a nice fat open D chord thing. That's probably not really drop D, what do I know. Re Nina, I found a local welder guy that will drill my holes in flat SS bar, and found 12' bar for $42 and 8 bucks or so shipping (that shipping price sounds too good, haven't ordered yet to confirm). You can see it here: http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/2,478.html. That sounds in my price range and I want a piece of metal down there, so probably I'll go that way for the skeg.

Wants a piece of big boy on his skeq Dougster

OFF TOPIC Open D tuning

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:31 pm
by JohnH
Dougster,

Off topic: Drop D

Try D A D F# A D

Hear some expert open D finger picking listen to Doc Watson's Vanguard Record series version of Settin on Top of the World. (One of his live versions is stunning; the other he has cold fingers)

Cheers
John

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:46 pm
by gk108
Ah yes. I was thinking about tuning the whole thing down. One of my friends worked for a while as a guitar tech for the Rembrandts. One of their typical shows would use about 15 different tunings. No such thing as the KISS principle there. :roll:

That SS strip looks like a fine solution. After the boat is built, it will be easier on your back because you won't be bending over as much to see how the ironwood is holding up. The thing about putting a strip forward of the skeg is that whatever you might hit will be immediately deflected to one side or the other and end up digging in to the hull anyway. This type of damage is very common:
Image
Notice that it is much wider than what a SS strip would protect. If it is a real concern, you might look at the plastic beach bumpers that are available. I think they are about 8" wide total.

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:09 pm
by Dougster
John, that looks like the folkie Dadgad thing with a flatted third? Blues'd up country/folk/mountain sound I'd hope. Ole Dougster would never figure the fingering out though. Thanks for the pic GK, it's eye opening and makes plenty sense. Maybe just go with the graphite there and see how the wind blows. Metal on the skeg though.

Saving his ironwood for a better day Dougster

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:26 am
by jeremy
You had it right - drop D is just dropping the 6th string down to D.

Dougster, you have any mp3s of your band? I had a few hanging around of myself, but my website is currently down.


Prefers open C (CGCGCE),
Jeremy

p.s. Your boat is looking great!

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:05 pm
by Dougster
Time to check in on this fairing thing. I filled the weave, quickfaired, and longboarded for a while. Progress was slow so I used the RO for a week and got everything very smooth, with good corners and edges on the transom. I had few illusions re humps and valleys, since I used the RO. Today I sprayed the guide coat. Here's some pics, the first two are before the guide coat. Here she is in the shop, waiting for me.

Image

Here's pics after the RO, before the guide coat:

Image


Now here's the guide coat:

Image


After that pic I started at the stern with the long board. 92 degrees but a good breeze head on through that garage door and out the rear door, so good ventilation. Tough going on the bow since the nose is just slightly "pinched" and the board doesn't do that. Anyway, an hour of that is all I had in me this afternoon. There are many lows and I have to watch out to prevent sanding into the glass at the bow. Still, I made progress. My biggest question next is filling in the lows. They are of course contaminated with guide coat. Acetone will make quick work of that but I remember reading some problems with off the shelf hardware store acetone (having contaminates that interfere with bonding). Is that a concern and if so where do I get acetone that is good? I could hand sand all the spots but that's slower going.

All tuckered and tarred out Dougster

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:08 pm
by TomW
Dougster, Lowes, sells a quality Acetone and believe it or not so does WalMart. Both are listed for epoxy work. $13-$15 a Gallon, I've used both over the last few years and never had a problem.

Second you don't need to put that heavy a guide coat on. It is best to use a speckeling technique. That way you have a pattern of what looks like small polka dots and these you don't have to worry about getting off as they are small, few and far enough apart not to affect the bond on the next coat. You can see Shine's technique on his FS12 build. It is a Sticky in the Boat Builders Forum

Tom

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:19 pm
by steve292
That's looking good 8)
What I did at the same sort of stage, FWIW, was divide the hull up into areas about 4' long,& work on each one until it came good.Seems to make the task less daunting.I did one area on each side,at opposite ends of the hull at a time.Then when I worked on the next area along,overlapped it,to blend each area in & did the whole lot with 150 grit at the end.
I didn't use acetone to remove the guide coat,just scratched it up with a bit of 80 grit,which seems to have worked for me.
Keep at it your getting there! 8) 8)
Steve

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:33 pm
by Dougster
I wondered if it was too heavy Tom, as I did check out Joel's demo. Oh well, some areas are speckled and kinda hard to see. I'll pick up some Walmart acetone tomorrow, so thanks for the tip. Any treatment after the acetone or just let it dry and lay on the quickfair? It's gonna be tough sanding all that off, but step at a time. Steve, I did your break it up into manageable pieces thing for awhile and now I'm into bigger pieces, though getting all this darn black paint off may reduce that goal. Once I'm done with filling/sanding, is a once over with acetone, then roll a coat of epoxy a good idea? Seems like I hear guys doing that.

Sanding in the dog days Dougster

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:46 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, is the boat fair yet to your eye? If its fair, you can acetone the boat clean (3 wipes did it for me), then go right for the high build primer. If it needs some additional fairing, QF it in those spots, then high build it. The epoxy based primers are great seal coats, so no worries on adding a step by putting the roll coat of epoxy on.

E

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:23 pm
by Dougster
Eric, thanks for chiming in. It's good to know acetone is ok. She does look pretty fair to my eye, did before the darn guide coat, which I did cuz folks do and I knew there were highs and lows I wasn't seeing (there are). But it's a pain sanding all that too heavy black paint off. Oops, shoulda had a lighter hand, but what do I know. It's a pain, but given my previously mentioned massive upper body strength :roll: , I'll put a few hours in and see how it goes. I can always use acetone to get off the troublesome areas I guess. How's Cloud Cap? Did the waterline end up at or above the sole? Is Evan gonna finish those Mini Maia plans? I can't help looking at that thread...

His mind wanders after sanding Dougster

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:27 pm
by TomW
Like Eric says it will take severall wipes with acetone to get all the paint off and the boat clean. QF to build up the low spots first then a thin coat all over to give you something to sand, then I put on a light guide coat and only use the boards from here out with the QF, It drys fast and you can with the weekend coming up you can do 2- 3 coats a day if your shoulders hold up. :lol: It almost sounds like you can get by with only 1 or two more coats, it's yours to call fair enough. 8)

Then as Eric says no epoxy, just the S3 epoxy high build primer, I'm assuming that's what your using. It's the only S3 primer Joel is selling these days I believe.

Have fun! :D

Tom

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:55 pm
by Spokaloo
Different strokes for different folks.

I did enough primer to sand into for the final coat (2-3 coats of primer). Only did the highs and lows with the QF, didn't coat the whole boat. Guess my standards are different than Tom's, but its economically driven.

In all honesty, I never checked the waterline v sole. Oops!

Id say at rest your good to go, but once you are underway, shes responsive enough to weight athwartships that shed be dipping the scuppers pretty regularly. If you scupper, make them closable. The other option is to do a teak grid or cedar planks on the sole to get above the light deckwash, but thats a whole different ball of wax (and a pretty one at that, but more work). Aft drainable scuppers under the motorwell are much more protected than the side ones, and the med diameter holes through the transom would be the safest. Personally Im a bilge pump guy, but thats a choice we all make.

E

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:39 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Eric, it's about what I figured. I was gone all morning but this afternoon I put in 1 hr with the longboard and 94 degrees. That and yesterday's 2 hrs have about 3' of the bow, both sides, pretty free of the dreaded guide coat. Seems possible, but 1hr. and I'm tarred. The boat now has had:

1) one full coat of filler (red stuff)
2) long board
3) light coat (off and on) of quickfair
4) some longboard and lotta RO
5) dreaded too thick guide coat
6) 10-15% longboarded

I'll finish this tough longboarding, fill the obvious lows with quickfair, long board that, then make the decision re good 'nuff. Thanks for hanging with me.

Tryin' to play fair Dougster

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:16 pm
by Spokaloo
I figured the longboard was winning, nobody posts during fairing.

E

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:38 pm
by gk108
Spokaloo wrote:I figured the longboard was winning, nobody posts during fairing.

E
Arms are too tired to hold the camera. :D

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:00 pm
by Spokaloo
Wife won't let you sit in the computer chair because of the dust....

E

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:03 pm
by peter-curacao
Spokaloo wrote:I figured the longboard was winning, nobody posts during fairing.

E
I do :P :P :P :P

Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:00 pm
by Dougster
Nay, and say again! The board is rough cobb, but he be 80 grit, and ole Dougster is 60. I like my odds. She'll be fair when I say, not the board.

Happy houred and ibuprofened Dougster

Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:20 am
by TomW
I'd say that's a plan Dougster. Have a happy houred one on me and take them ibuprofen before you start the long boarding that way the pain ain't quiet so bad. :lol:

Tom

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:09 pm
by Dougster
After several days of two to three hours on the long board a day, she looks like this:

Image

The other side is only about half done, but I'm getting there. I haven't used any acetone yet, just the long board, and as you can see there are lots of low spots marked by the dread guide coat. I can't just keep sanding till I get 'em down cuz I'm hitting glass in some adjacent areas and have to move on. Some of the spots are significant---I can feel them with my hand as low. Most you can't feel. So it's getting time to fill those spots. First I gotta get the paint off, acetone or spot sand. How do you guys mark the area? Obviously if I wipe off the paint I can't see 'em. Pencil? Does that sand off easily?

Says he'll never spray a guide coat on that heavy again Dougster

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:48 pm
by Betowess
Hey Doug, that's a pretty nice camo job on the LB. I read its well over 100F in Dallas the last 11 days. Must be hell sanding in that kind of heat. Are you working at night on it? You are definitely getting closer to the flip! I like your happy houred / ibu routine. Works for me too!

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:48 pm
by Spokaloo
Pencil mark circle the areas to be filled, then acetone, if it were me.

Looks like progress, and QF is going to be your new best buddy.

Mix thoroughly!

E

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:41 pm
by Dougster
Yes, pencil it is. Already used 3/4 gallon of Quickfair and more has been ordered! Well, learn as your go, I wasted plenty. Dallas has been hot, yesterday I checked the temp in the shop while I was sanding and it was 97 degrees. Oddly enough, the heat doesn't bother me much. I have a little AC in the shop, but it can't handle 100 too well and then I'm closed up with all the dust. So, I shut it off, open the front garage door and the rear man door and later nature work. There's a prevailing southerly breeze all summer here from the gulf (about 150 miles away) and I don't suffer so much that way. The shoulders though, well... All I manage is an hour or two in the morning and one in the afternoon. Cracker Larry's recent post on consecutive 10 hour days shamed me into an extra hour that afternoon, but otherwise, I wimp along. I have maybe another 2 to 4 hours with the longboard before I start filling again. I'd love to use the RO then but guess I'm supposed to stay with the board? Another question I have is on the skeg. It is glassed but not touched yet. Should I just fill the weave with quickfair and plan on giving it the same graphite/epoxy treatment as the bottom?

Still goin' slow, but still goin' Dougster

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:11 am
by TomW
Dougster feel your pain. Do the skeg the same as the bottom. Like Eric said pencil works great. It sands off easy.

Hope this storm coming towards TX doesn't slow you down any. Looks wet.

Tom

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:51 am
by Spokaloo
I sanded once at 97. You can have it!

I think you are on the right track.

On your skeg, do you really care what people think of how the skeg looks? I faired mine to remove the weave and make it smooth, but by no means is it mirror-paint smooth. Its underwater AND you cant see it on the trailer!

E

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:47 am
by Dougster
Thanks Eric. Re the skeg, I'm only thinking fill the weave and hit it with the RO, then cover it with the graphite mix as well when I do the bottom. No cosmetic concerns there. Re the rest, dunno about any mirror finish there either, but will do the next round of fill/sand. What you got going on these days? And Tom, I'm hoping I do get wet :)

Stayin' the course Dougster

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:32 am
by Spokaloo
Trying to sort out the checking issues Im having on certain pieces of the boat. I think Ive nailed it down to a combination of the paint, our climate, and needing to put down 3 coats of epoxy, not 2.

Spokane regularly gets weather swings, but a little different than you southerners. We have had several days this year where the relative humidity got below 10%. Going from 60% at 85 to 10% at 95+ degrees, the paint is getting hot to the touch, and I have a feeling it may have softened the thinner areas of epoxy enough to modify it slightly. Live and learn.

Oh, and the perch fishing has started picking up, so that's tonights plan.

E

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:18 pm
by Dougster
When you finish with the checking fix it would be a good post as an FYI for folks. By three coats of 'poxy I take you to mean coats put on after the fairing; but that does seem like a lot. Still, 10% humidity to 60% is a big swing, esp. with all that heat. Wouldn't leave my guitar outside :) I just came up from the boat after finishing the last of the longboard thing to get all that darn guide coat off. Don't mind saying good riddance. Next is mark the lows, then fill. There are literally dozens of spots indicating lows, but some seem so minor I may just buff them out. Some are clear low spots I'm glad to have found. Sorry about your checking problems, I'm sure it's frustrating since you used quality materials. Still, there are those perch (I recall pics of some monsters you posted).

Hung the longboard up for awhile Dougster

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:00 pm
by Spokaloo
Just makes me think I may have to either kiwigrip the topsides or lay a little more glass over the winter months. Whatever, its a boat, it will get fixed.

Some of the extremely shallow, trivial looking spots will actually fill with the S3 primer, surprisingly (3mm is a fair amount of lift for a primer). Hit the biggies, get it to good enough, and if all else fails, get semi-gloss paint!

Just got done doing a service on the motor, gona put her in tonight and go hit the perch spot again.

E

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:59 pm
by Dougster
Well, yes, I do wanna talk about kiwigrip and how to. I like that idea very, very much. Certainly for the sole and up a bit, maybe all the way. We could use a thread on that up in the anything else section. While I'm posting I'll mention my disappointing finding this afternoon that the new etech 30 hp model has only manual tilt. That seems a no go to me...thoughts? I love its punch and low profile. Maybe kick up to the 40 horse etech: dunno the increase in profile, but it is 70 lbs. more weight. Also, I am ordering a trailer soon. I had a drive on trailer for my old 19' Center Console bay boat and loved it, so am thinking of having those kind of side guides on it. I hate launch ramps and want to minimize hassle there. Thoughts?

Has a rambling mind at the end of the day Dougster

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:04 pm
by Spokaloo
You can either put an add-on PTT unit from some company like CMC or just get the extra 10 hp. Im guessing some of that weight is the trim unit. I happen to be working on one as we speak on the metal boat. Keeps leaking down slowly, don't know why.

Trailer wise, I have a 4 bunk EZ-loader (they have a factory here in Spokane). The bunks are so close together in the center that they corral the skeg and force it to go on straight every time. Pretty convenient!

Side bunks might be a bit of a challenge as you are beamier amidships than you are across the transom. It will work, just won't fit like a bay boat or a sled is all.

E

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:32 pm
by gk108
Hang in there Dougster. 22' is a lot of boat to fair. At this point, taking your time means that you might not have to paint in 100ร‚ยฐ weather. At least you got some traveling in over the summer. Your "How I Spent My Summer Vacation" essay can be longer than one sentence about sanding a boat. :D

Eric's plywood checking troubles have me looking close at a few places on my little V10. Even though the seat tops are meranti, there are some places that worried me. I'm hoping that a little QF in the open grain will stabilize it. It looks like no matter what the specifications are, rotary cut plywood will always have the possibility of acting up. :doh:

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:43 pm
by TomW
Oh Eric love those Perch Lake Erie and a couple of 100 in 3-4 hours. Best eating in anything.

Hope you solve the other problem, what a bummer. :cry: If anyone can you will. Normally once the wood is sealed on all sides there is not a problem. But with your huge changes in humidity if you missed a side this could accout for it.

Tom

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:04 pm
by peter-curacao
Dougster,

Everything OK there? just heard on the radio eduard enter t Texas .

Peter

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:29 pm
by Spokaloo
Everything got coated, no question there. Ill hit it to fill the checks, then recoat with the same paint. If same occurs, then glass.

Thats the nice part about building your own boat. All fixes are cake!

E

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:36 pm
by Dougster
No storm here, just a few light, humid showers and not much breeze. Edward is weak and going north of us, plus we're 150 miles inshore. Hoping for some more rain. Eric, why didn't I think of the skeq and the bunks guiding her on; that's the ticket! No side bunks for me. There's a place in Houston that makes nice aluminum trailers that have nice long tongues to deal with our shallow ramps. I have put some $ down on one and will take them the molds (or representations there of ) soon. Every boat outing for me will include towing, so I want a good trailer. I've been on the side of the road with a down trailer and I've towed underpowered. All no good. Nina needs a good ride. And yeah, like GK says, 22' is some, at least for old Dougster. Gotta be that odd combination of patient and stubborn. Tough mix.

Wonders if Eric got into the perch bite Dougster

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:53 pm
by Spokaloo
18 perch in 2 hrs, not bad....

My trailer has 4 bunks, 2 pairs on 2 separate cradles. The two centermost bunks are about 16" apart, FWIW.

E

Consultation

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:28 pm
by Dougster
Well guys I think it's about time for a check in and consult now. I think I am getting toward the end of the hull fairing thing and want to get opinions on a couple of issues. I'll summarize what I've done briefly:

1) Filled the weave (too thickly) with the Bateau red filler stuff. Then long boarded that to death plus some desperation RO work.

2) Hit the hull again with Quickfair. More longboard. Eventually, I had to give up on the board though, cuz I was cutting into the glass too often and not able to get down to the lows. Maybe 3' of board on curvy Nina is too much. I did use a flexible and stiff board. Anyway, I retreated to the RO and got it very smooth to my eye and hand.

3) Drenched the entire hull in black guide coat. Never again. I recommend to first timers to do this step gingerly, on only a few square feet to begin with! Anyway, then I again longboarded the hull to death, and came up against the same old problems. Couldn't get all the lows down without digging into glass. I know, build it up with more Quickfair but there's plenty on there now I think. So, with about 3/4ths of the dreaded guide coat removed, I identified (by touch), the obvious low points, filled, and sanded with the RO.

4) Did an acetone wash of the entire hull to remove the last of the guide coat. But, and here's my first issue, there are still slight dark areas that acetone won't get. Neither does very light hand sanding. It's as if the guide coat seeped into the quickfair. Dunno. Anyway I test sanded an area with the RO using finer grit (120), which seems to pretty well do the job. I worry using the RO too much will create more dips, but does it make sense to lightly go over the entire hull with the RO andfine grit, even, say, 150? I only want to be sure the primer sticks. Here's a pic of the hull and the dark areas:

Image


So, that's my first little issue. The second is different, and only cosmetic. A little history will make it clear. Those who have read this thread may recall my early days playing the biblical Job in my struggle to get the panels to make the bends. In the end, Jacques saved me with his instructions to cut slits in the bottom panels. There are pics early in the thread. The slits in the bottom bow panels can be seen in the next pic, and I have not bothered to fair the area perfectly round. I reasoned that it's kind of a cool "multiple chine" look there and OK. Thing is, I can't visualize how it will look once painted. My inclination is to leave it but it wouldn't be all that hard to fair I guess, just tedious. Here's a pic, what do folks think?


Image

I sure am glad to have you guys around and willing to have a look. Otherwise, this would be a lonely and far more scary trip.

Trying to be fair Dougster

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:37 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, high build primer will stick to and fill 60 grit, so the 120 will be just fine, dont sweat it.

You should probably fair the slits. I have a feeling you will be upset if you don't, after looking at her for a year or so. Remember you are only adding a few days of fairing time to a boat you will look at for YEARS to come. A little time spent now is worth far more than staring at lines you don't like for a decade or two.

If you lay on your high-build primer and fair it back to the hull surface, removing all primer in high spots, remember you can always just add some filler in those spots. A modified epoxy primer will allow QF to stick to it, so long as its a small spot. If its big, just strip that dip, fill with QF, fair it, and be back on your way with high build.

If all above fail, semi-gloss fixes all!

Looks good Doug, don't get discouraged. Its going to come out great.

E

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:50 pm
by Dougster
Heck, I'm encouraged, not discouraged. This fairing thing is coming along; I'm on the "5%" thing now :) Going slow has worked for me, just doing a little everyday. And sigh, I bet you're right. Instead of looking like a little "lapstrake" area it'll probably just look wrinkled on the bottom to me. So I just finished gooping 6 ozs of QF on one side. Got only maybe 2/3rds of the area and this is just the first pass. It's kinda tricky, just like fairing a lapstrake section to make it round. Gonna have to order more QF, oh well. On the other thing, I get the primer filling in 60 grit on up, I'm talking about the dark spots of guide coat that acetone doesn't want to get. I fear leaving them could cause adhesion problems for the primer so am talking about sanding with the RO and finer grit to minimize how much QF I take off, since things seem reasonably fair now. Safer to do it by hand I guess, but the RO is so fast and easy. God knows I'm comfortable with it by now.

Thinking ahead, I am leaning toward Kirby for the hull. I have read of it for some time and was glad to see you use it. Your points of an older, semi-gloss look fitting Nina's traditional look seems reasonable as well as your notion that a less glossy paint causes the eye to focus on the boats lines rather than her beautiful shine. But really, since I'm no painter, easy application of a simpler product is appealing. Maybe I'll try the Sterling on the topsides when I get that far. Keep us posted on your checking solution(s).

Fill and Fair Dougster

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:05 pm
by Jaap
Hi dougster, since I know you own a Rotex, don't hesitate to use it!!
It was an amazing moment for me when I coated the first layer of primer on the hull, like you pull a curtain. All at a sudden it looked smooth and fair. There were of course quite a few spots to go after, but the whole looked so good and gave me a very comfortable feeling.

succes,

jaap

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:29 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Jaap---I've been using Rubin and Brilliant sanding pads, but not Crystal. I've read your posts on Crystal and want to order some to try. I do love the thing and find it easy to control. Changing pads is a snap and the vac is great. I wear a respirator but almost feel like I don't need one (know better though).

Says it'll be good 'nuff when it's fair 'nuff Dougster

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:03 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, my money says the primer will stick. If it were me, Id go paint a test patch on one of the dark spots tonight. While you are farting around with the other stuff, itll cure up. Then try to flake it and see if it hangs on like it should.

Can't wait to see her faired and upright again.

E

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:30 pm
by Dougster
Well, try it and see eh? What a concept. I haven't ordered any yet. BTW, is S3 primer and S3 yacht primer the same thing? Dumb question but I can't answer it. I'm back at work these days but still got down to the boat to sand and re fill yesterday's little section. Easy work, just like I like it: above the waist and below the shoulders. No squat, bend, reach :D

He's easy to please Dougster

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:32 pm
by Spokaloo
WR-155 and yacht are different products.

E

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:37 pm
by Cracker Larry
You're kicking it's butt Dougster.
Doug, high build primer will stick to and fill 60 grit, so the 120 will be just fine, dont sweat it.
Actually the S3 instructions I have says sand to 120 grit before priming, so that's perfect 8)
Doug, my money says the primer will stick.
Mine too.
BTW, is S3 primer and S3 yacht primer the same thing?
No, they are 2 different products. The Yacht Primer is a new and improved primer from S3

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:42 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Larry. I better read up on the two primers. So WR-155 is S3 primer eh. Well I'm a sucker for new and improved. What a name though, Yacht Primer, I mean Nina's no yacht! She may be a Merlot kinda girl, I'll let her decide, but I'm bettin' she'll know what to do with a cold one. Still, I'm a sucker for new and improved.... I'm also rooting for your painting day Larry. Rest easy knowing there's no way you can foul it up like old Dougster can :) I rest easier knowing there isn't much that can't be fixed with enough 'poxy and sandpaper.

Rather not go there so often, though Dougster

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:23 pm
by Cracker Larry
Rest easy knowing there's no way you can foul it up like old Dougster can Smile I rest easier knowing there isn't much that can't be fixed with enough 'poxy and sandpaper.
Oh yeah, I can foul this up for certain. I'm a much better boat captain than I am a carpenter, a better carpenter than I am at fiberglass, better at fiberglass than I am at fairing, and better at fairing than I am at painting. Painting is way low on my list of skills or experience.

But like you say, it can all be fixed with sandpaper and time and practice. Only thing for certain is that it will be OK in the end, but the end may be long time in coming :lol:

Or we could look at it in Island Time, "soon come mon". :lol:

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:14 am
by chicagoross
What about those of us actually ON an island? Yup, soon come mon... :D

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:26 am
by PaulMcClure
WR-155 is discontinued, although you may be able to pick some up and get a deal from old stock. The Yacht Primer is much better, gives excellent coverage. I used it on my invader and applied three coats. It sanded up very easily and gave a good base for the top coat.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:24 pm
by RR
Dougster, just after looking at http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/, which is E-TEC website, it appears that they updated the 30 hp information lately. Under Specifications, it is showing that the E30DPL has "Power Tilt". Maybe it's something you are still looking for as a candidate for your Nina.

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:43 am
by Dougster
Hey, thanks RR, I'll run down that link now and check on it. I like the low profile and less weight than the 40. Re the yacht primer, I might as well go with the new stuff. In for a penny... I have today off so it's more sand and fill this morning :)

Be fair soon come mon Dougster

fairing, kevlar tape, and yeah, fairing

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:14 pm
by Dougster
Well I just sanded the last round of fill on the port side slits. That was the 4th time I finished sanding the last round :lol: I keep finding "just one more place", which I sure is familiar to folks. Anyway, I moved over to the starboard side and got some quickfair started on that. For a break I started fooling with some Kevlar tape for the skeg. Costs about 50 cents a foot.

Image

I laminated a short piece on some scrap doug fir from the skeg just to see how it goes. Looking at the pic, I see I sure didn't take much time getting it smooth and straight, but oh well. Also, my just "fill the weave" on the skeg sure needs another pass. Anyway, tomorrow when the piece of kevlar tape is cured I'll whack on it and otherwise abuse it a bit. If it holds up I'll put one more piece on top and see how that goes.

Image

Once I finish the starboard bow slits I'm ready for the skeg. Also, I gotta get the underside of the rubrails looking smooth (course they're the top side now with Nina turned turtle). What about running a fine bead with quickfair from a baggie at the seam of the panel and rubrail and then running the tip of a plastic spoon down that for a very small fillet? Or go for a 90 degree angle there (more tedious to sand)?

Says fair's fair Dougster

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:38 pm
by JIM M
What about running a fine bead with quickfair from a baggie at the seam of the panel and rubrail and then running the tip of a plastic spoon down that for a very small fillet?
That's what I did on mine 'cept used my thumb instead of a spoon.
abusing those test pieces is always fun :)

Jim

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:41 pm
by TomW
Dougster, I don't know, I have to put my rubrails on the Mirror next week and I think I'll just glue them and then fair them to the hull. I guess it's 6 of one 1/2 dozen of another. There not really a critical structural item and the glue should hold 'm fine. I need to be a little more critical as some of the sail hardware goes on 'em but I also put on in inwale.

Tom

Still can't make up my mind :doh:

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:54 pm
by Cracker Larry
What about running a fine bead with quickfair from a baggie at the seam of the panel and rubrail and then running the tip of a plastic spoon down that for a very small fillet? Or go for a 90 degree angle there
Dougster, I've never had much luck with the baggy method, but I'd fillet under the rubrail. It will be easier to fair and sand, stronger and look better too. At least to me.

I'd consider the rubrail somewhat structural. It's going to be the first part of the boat that hits something.

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:11 pm
by Spokaloo
I wish I would have filleted or otherwise faired my rubrails better. They may not necessarily need a fillet (my favorite tool for small jobs like that is a credit card or ID card cut to the desired radius), but filling them smooth and giving a little drip rail is always nice.

When Im loaded with 4+, the rubrails become sprayrails occasionally. Quite a bit of spray some days, depending on the load (Had 9 in her one day, that was low in the water, but she performed with aplomb). Some spray deflection shape is always nice.

E

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:34 pm
by cape man
Doug,

I let some epoxy "pool" on the rub rail while wetting in and coating/filling the glass, and then when I used the QF I ran a small fillet between the hull and the rail. I'll try and take a close up pic of them. I'm with Larry...the rails are structural and need to be solid. I feel good that they are well attached on the outside, and will tie them in to the gunwales and the inside when I get to there.

Let us know what happens when you whack the kevlar.

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:21 pm
by TomW
Dougster yep glue 'em well they just don't need a fancy filet. Do make sure they are glued solidly, is what I guess I was saying in my first post. They are after all there to get hit first if you hit the peir. Then use what you want to shape them. I like Eric's idea of a secondary spray rail. On some classic old boats I havea seen rubrails 2-3" thick 4" high that are true secondary spray rails.

Tom

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:21 pm
by Dougster
Thanks guys. They are glued in good, I'm mostly talkin' cosmetic. The fillet is my first inclination and your posts report no problems with that. Eric--what's a drip rail gonna look like? I've been thinkin' about that. I'm gonna sand the big batch of quickfair on the starboard bow slits tomorrow, then whack on the kevlar and take some pics.

Kinda lookin' forward to whackin' and not just fairin' Dougster

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:54 am
by Spokaloo
All a drip rail would be is a little notch in the bottom of the rubrail where water wouldn't be able to flow past. Generally a little notch about 1/8" deep is enough. Water runs off the deck, down the rubrail, and back in to the driprail, where it can't get down the hull sides and drips off.

May not be necessary if you are going to trailer, but they keep the sides a little cleaner on moored boats that aren't covered.

E

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:11 am
by PaulMcClure
Dougster,

I just put the rubrails on my N7 (I think I'm close to the record for the longest N7 build ever, in elapsed time rather than actual work :lol: ) and when the boat was flipped I ran a bead of GelMagic along the bottom of the rail and ran my (gloved) finger along to give a nice radius. I used one of the GelMagic cartridges with a mix tip, like in the pictures below:

Image
Image

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:59 am
by Dougster
Thanks Paul-I sure like the look of those Gelmagic cartridges and intend to get some for putting down the sole. I like the gelmagic a lot, especially after once needing to sand and scrape some off. It is VERY tough. I did use it to glue the rub rails on (with dowels every two or three feet to hold things together. I'll use quickfair for this since I have it, can touch up sand it, and the rails are already solid. BTW, those mixing tips, can you take one off and toss it after using half a cartridge and then use a second tip later for the left over?

Gotta go sand and fill an hour, then whack the kevlar Dougster

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:28 am
by PaulMcClure
Dougster, yes you can use as many mix tips as you like with the cartridge. Obviously once you use one, it's dead since it's now full of cured epoxy :lol:

kevlar whack

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:44 pm
by Dougster
Well I'm giving the kevlar a B+, and that's with only one piece of tape. I whacked it good with a hammer and whacked the bare wood along side it for comparison. Here's pics.

Image

Image

Image

You can see in the last pic the kevlar gives some in compression, but not like the bare wood. Pretty good protection for just one layer of tape. I have enough for two layers and may call that good 'nuff. Still ponderin though. Finished the second last fill on the transom and the next one's gonna be the first last fill on the starboard slits. Did a first last fill on one side of the skeg.

Gonna fill till he's full Dougster :lol:

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:55 pm
by Cracker Larry
I'll use quickfair for this since I have it, can touch up sand it, and the rails are already solid.
I don't think I would use QF for that Dougster. It is for fairing (obviously) and would be brittle as a fillet. The rubrail is surely strong but it will have some flex that may crack the quick fair. I'd use wood flour.

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:20 pm
by Dougster
Good thinking Larry, and thanks. I never thought of that. Wood flour it is. I've been busy all day with clearing a dead tree, burning the waste, and then the daily fill and sand and have just tuned in to Gustav. Kinda been out of the loop and see many of our folks are in harms way. Looks like you're in the clear, I hope. But I'm afraid Labor Day is gonna mean a whole lotta labor for a lotta folks.

Hopin' folks keep they're heads down Dougster

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:27 pm
by Cracker Larry
Funny, I've been burning trash all day myself. Cleaning up from the last storms.

It seems a lot of these big storms come on labor day, or around. We're clear from that one but Hannah is pointed right at us. I do enjoy a good blow though, strange as it may sound :lol:

Going to be a rough week for a lot of folks. I'm available if anyone here needs anything, including a place to stay, assuming I still have one next week.

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:28 pm
by Dougster
I've been fussing with the underside of the rub rails for the last two weekends and finally got 'em pretty good, so I decided to deal with the keel. I have over pondered the metal shoe versus kevlar tape for too long, and since I have 30' of tape (50 cents a foot at Jamestown) I decided to use it. It's kinda fussy as it wants to ripple on one side all the time and doesn't wet out like glass. I put down two 12' runs of tape, wet-on-wet and then used packing tape to hold down the remaining tendencies to "ripple". Then I took pics, came up, and first loaded this pic:

Image

After loading it and starting this post I noticed what you see above: the top tape is askew. So I trotted back down to the boat (about 30" had passed) and adjusted it to the next two pics. Hard to tell for sure if the tape is well wet out, cuz it sure did adjust easily. Anyway, here's the final outcome:

Image


Image

Pretty funny, posting the pics here may well have let me see a little goof in time to fix. I'll know tomorrow. BTW, if you're on board Spokaloo, is 8 5/8" about right for the false transom measurement at the top midline, where Cloud Cap is written? That's what I figured and have drawn in pencil. I'm pondering that cut now :)

Got Kevlar on his keel Dougster

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:58 pm
by ks8
Let us know how easily the kevlar trims up once cured.

*Got a feelin' you may need to epoxy down remaining fuzzies* ... ks8

But hoping you don't have to. 8)

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:13 am
by Dougster
It's not much fun trimming it so I don't plan to and I don't dare sand it. I'm gonna touch it up with quickfair on the sides. It is only just a tad wider than the keel here and there, like maybe 1/32" so I'm hoping that's easy. I'll post a pic when done. Guess I'll then cover it with the graphite/resin thing when I do the bottom. It's not too fun to work with, the kevlar tape, but it it's a nice break from sanding :)

Hoping it doesn't look too bad in the morning Dougster

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:00 am
by ks8
That sounds fair .... :roll:

Looking fwd to the visuals. :)

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:33 pm
by Dougster
Well I'm callin' good 'nuff. And I'm wrong about the kevlar being no good to trim, it's kinda depressingly easy to trim. I trimmed a few spots where one piece of tape overhung too much, then put on a bit of quickfair. Here's some pics.

Image

Image

Image

The first pic is the front of the keel. The middle pic shows a piece trimmed off. Easy and no fuzz. The last pic, apologies for poor focus, is with the quickfair on. I intend to scrape the quickfair and sand very easily when dry as I don't want to sand the kevlar any and get the fuzz thing. This whole process took and hour and a half yesterday to put on two pieces of tape, and another hour and a half to trim and fair today. So not much time. But not much comparison to a good metal shoe either. A compromise I guess, but Kevlar is surely lots better than bare wood with a little epoxy painted over it. I'm moving on.

Likes old Hank Williams Dougster

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:12 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, in bulletproof vests they have to put two different layers of fabric in them to fully protect the wearer.

One layer is designed to stop blunt and high velocity weapons: Kevlar

The other is designed to prevent sharp penetrating injuries from kinves: depends on company.

Kevlar isn't known for its sharps protection, especially aramids soaked in epoxy, so you can see the need for two layers in body protection. Now when you laminate it to a surface, it will be extremely abrasion resistant and durable, so have no fear, itll work just fine.


E

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:26 pm
by Dougster
Hey Eric, thanks for the reassurance. I just finish touching it up. You cannot sand the stuff so I just scraped a bit and tried to hand sand the QF fairing it to the keel. Kinda lumpy here and there, but I hear you saying "Hey, Doug, it's the bottom quarter of the keel, get real!" So she's done there. I'll wrap up the fairing within the week I think too :D :D I'm glad you encouraged me to fair those slits in the bow, it'll look better for it. BTW, I drew in the motorwell cut out and would like to check a figure with you. On the false transom, the top, the "arch" section where the name goes. I figured 8 5/8" for that at the midline. Does around 8 1/2" sound right to you?

Achin' back and done for the weekend Dougster

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:45 pm
by stickystuff
The way I understand it and this is what jacques told me, was that kevlar is more for strength than for abrasion. Thats why we used kevlar on the PH 15 all foam version.

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:07 pm
by Spokaloo
Do you want me to put a tape on my boat doug? Your motor will tilt in a different arc than mine, so it really should be dictated by the motor. I need to trim a little up on this boat because my motor touches it before it hits the top of the trim (that was an aggravating ding to put in). Best bet is to rough it in, hang the motor, cycle the trim, and do a final cut. Bearing that in mind, I think your 8-9" range is about right.

If you want, I can go throw a tape on it after our dinner party tonight. Having neighbors over for some of that salmon we caught the week before labor day.

Take care

E

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:59 pm
by Dougster
Nah, thanks Eric, don't bother. Just so I'm ballpark. I'm wondering how you're gonna fix the salmon? The tape I'd really like you to do is this. Next time you're on the lake, walk back to the motor well and stick a tape down with you standing there and see where the water line is there in the well. That's a story I would like to hear :) BTW, I see your post elsewhere re Nexus and Bartender. That Buoy 10 sounds like too much for Cloud Cap I guess, but what great fishing. I don't allow myself too much pondering on the next build, cuz I gotta get Nina done. But I do think fondly of a sea kindly displacement hull with cozy cabin fit for long weekend. I envy you the Bartender ride.

Gotta love that Bartender Dougster

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:40 am
by Spokaloo
Im having some considerations on boats thanks to that Buoy 10 trip to say the least. Big water, but big fish. Id love to go the displacement route, but we are looking at 12 miles at a minimum daily run one way. Long trip in a 5 kt displacement boat, esp against a 3kt tide and 25kt headwinds.

The water line is on the nuts right where Jacques placed it at the bow, and Im about 1" higher in the stern. You will be right on the money with the 30 if you use his waterline. Your other option is to cheat like I did, ballpark it in, then float it off the trailer and mark it with a piece of wood or styrofoam. Thats about as accurate as you can get with a waterline, just lay it on in the water!

E

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:09 am
by stickystuff
well Dougster, looks like you survived the storm. I feel for all the folks in Texas that lost everything. Unbelievable amount of flooding. We have certainly been lucky in N. Central Florida this year. Hope all is well with you and family.

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:54 am
by tech_support
kevlar on the outside will provide abrasion and puncture resistance. Kevlar as part of the inside skin laminate of a composite sandwich gives strength.

Carbon and kevlar have very different properties compared to regular biaxial fiberglass. the idea is to use them only where you will get an extreme benefit relative to the cost and weight of biaxial glass. Most often this means using carbon for its tensile strength in tension, and for kevlar using its abrasion and puncture resistance on the outside of a hull.

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:24 pm
by Dougster
Eric---you say the waterline is right on where Jacques placed it at the bow, but here's my problem: I never have found where he placed it in the plans! It is penned in on the profile on B234/1 but no dimensions are given. Is that profile to scale and did you figure the scale and then calculate the dimension for the waterline? Or am I missing something? I can't wait to float her to see the actual waterline as I want to put the graphite bottom on now and have it extend an inch or two above the waterline, wherever that is. I'm guessing it's right close below the sole.


He who can make simple things hard Dougster

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:00 pm
by Spokaloo
What I did is leveled the sole (which levels the stringers by proxy) on the trailer. This makes the boat level to how she floats. Then I pulled the scaled dimensions off the scale drawings, and marked it on the aft corner. From this I pulled a dimension from the floor, made a simple little T from scrap, and went around the boat marking the level off the floor. Got me to within 1/4" of what I wanted, so its spot on to my eye. Ill put a tape on her for you, but again I want to warn that there will be enough variability in how we built our boats (cabins, seats, motors, etc) that it might not be perfect.

BRB

E

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:06 pm
by Spokaloo
Paint stripe:

19.5" at the transom/side corner, 23.5" at the C frame. Measured along the panel.

Transom cutout:

11.75" from decks to top of cutout.

E

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 pm
by Dougster
Thanks a bunch Eric. I've done just as you have: leveled to the stringer tops (sole, essentially), but didn't know where to put the waterline. When you say 19.5" at the transom/side corner, is that measuring down from the sheer? I know this is ballpark, don't worry. I just want to be sure the graphite reaches above the waterline, but not over by more than a couple or three inches. Re your buoy 10 boat search, it's a lotta boat and I haven't looked at the study plans in a long time, but Devlin's Surf Scoter sure is a pretty thing. That's a huge build of course, and I'm not sure if it's up to such big water. Fine ride though.

Sure am glad you built Nina first Dougster :)

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:27 pm
by Spokaloo
Yeah down from the sheer, with the decks in place.

Hope it works out!

I looked at all of Sam's boats for this project, but he either has them too small or need too much HP.

E

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:31 pm
by Cracker Larry
Yeah down from the sheer,
She'd be a bit deep drafted otherwise :P

Hi

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:26 pm
by DutchNina
Hello Dougster!

You dont know me.. but I know you :D .. a llittle.. Been reading trough ur blog. Admire your perseverance. Have you been able to go through Ike ok?

Ok.. who is this guy ur thinking.. Well, I am also planning to build Nina. I am from Amsterdam, Netherlands. Just in the starting phase, so reading up in the blogs here. Got already some hints from Eric.

Will be watching your blog with great interest!

Hans

http://dutchiesnina.blogspot.com/

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:09 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, I think we should take our brides over to Amsterdam when Hans is done with his boat for a Nina-fest!

E

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:12 pm
by Daddy
Welcome aboard Hans, I checked out your blog and will be interested in watching you progress with Nina. You have some excellent role models to follow and I might be joining you myself.
Daddy
PS, I love Amsterdam, was there about 15 years ago, great city, I can see Nina slowly cruising the canals.

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:16 am
by Dougster
That's good news Hans, you'll probably splash before me :) A Ninafest would be pretty darn cool. Ike didn't hit me, went east. We didn't even get rain, just a breezy day. 150 miles away people are wiped out. It's very sad, and I'm reminded of how much luck plays a role in things. I did put some money down on a custom aluminum trailer in Houston, and haven't checked on it yet. I figure on giving the guy a little time to get sorted out, then call him next week. Today's a fun day on Nina. The trailer guy wants the molds to fit the bunks to. I had most of them and quickly cut the rest out of cheap wafer board stuff (I hate it). Today I'm gonna cut the inside of those molds out to make them lighter, but really to get practice with my new little skill saw and old reliable Bosch jig saw. The skill saw is a little Ridgid Fuego, 6 1/2" Home Depot model. I wanna practice plunge cuts and a jig for straight line cutting cuz the next step is cutting out the motor well 8O Eric's pics on the process are pretty clear. I'll ponder it good and do it. Post often Hans.

Says you gotta beat fear to build a boat Dougster

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:49 pm
by JohnC
Hey Doug,
I've been following your thread here and I noticed somewhere in all this that you're in Blanco, if you need a hand with the next flip let me know.
Even by Texas standards I'm just down the street.

John

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:22 pm
by Dougster
Your on John. I gotta cut the motor well, scribe a waterline, graphite the bottom, maybe prime the sides, then she's ready to roll :) You are indeed close. Where are you on Canyon Lake? I drive down 306 several times a week on the way to New Braunfels. Stay tuned.

Wants a hand on flip day Dougster

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:33 pm
by Dougster
Well I got the motor well cut! I'd be tickled pink 'cept for a little goof in the last darn cut. I rushed it I guess and let the saw wander, despite running against a straight edge. Dunno how it happened but there's only a 1/8" bow in the cut which, fortunately is on the bottom. Can't really see it with naked eye very well but a straight edge tells the tail. I'll probably fool with a little quickfair to fair it more. It's ok though, and I'm relieved, feeling good except for some odd pricky sensations on my arms that I think are from little flying pieces of fiberglass coming off the saw :) Might be wise to wear a long sleeve shirt. Here I am getting started:

Image

You can see the first verticle cut and the straight edge clamped in place for supporting the next horizontal cut.

Image

There it is, now the jig saw cuts the curve.

Image

Now here's a pic with the well cut out. The wandering cut is the one on the bottom on the right. Pissed me off.

Image

Not the end of the world, I'll fool with it a little. You can see the little bow in the middle. Course it's the bottom of the boat and doesn't matter much. Here's a last pic of the cutout:

Image


I'm pleased enough. I don't show the cut through the transom edge up close cuz I'm not too proud of the layup. There's a little air space on the glass layup, but not the tape. Also there's a pin hole underneath the fillet where it didn't quite penetrate. Still, it's all very much encapsulated. Won't last as long as a better job would, but given all the redundancy of the process, I figure she'll do. It was a bit of a scary job, and I'm glad it's done. Course, now I see I gotta fair all that newly exposed area in the well :roll: Still, any day Dougster finishes using a dang circular saw and still counts ten fingers is a good one :)

Still got 'em all Dougster

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:38 pm
by steve292
Nicely done,dougster,nicely done 8)
Big milestone for you I'd guess that was.
Fun ain't it? :D
Steve

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:40 pm
by Cracker Larry
Well done Dougster 8) That is a serious cut out 8O I'm sure it's a load off your mind, that's the kind of thing you worry about for days before committing yourself. Excellently executed.

A little epoxy mud, a little tape and that little curve will disappear 8)

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:54 pm
by JohnC
Hey Doug,
I'm on the south side, off of FM2673 & FM 3159 by the golf course.
John

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:24 pm
by Dougster
Thanks guys, it was a little milestone for me. Now I gotta fair the inside of the motorwell and I notice it has (of course) no glass in it, just the tape at the intersections of the panels, transom, and bulkhead. Eric, if you see this, did you put some more glass there or just epoxy,fair, prime, and paint? I have plenty of scrap glass but sure don't need to make work if it isn't needed. John, you are close and I would definitely welcome help on the flip. If you wanna come by and check out the build before that, let me know. It's good to find guys nearby.

Gotta order more Quickfair Dougster

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:35 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I think I would put glass in there, it is after all a part of the hull and there will be a lot going on in there, although not much chance of any of it rubbing up against a dock or piling, beauty part, only you will see it.
Daddy

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:51 pm
by Dougster
Well, darn it, but you're right Daddy. You put it better than I did: "it is part of the hull". Yeah, it is and it would be the only part exposed to the water not glassed.

Gonna ponder this awhile Dougster

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:49 pm
by Cracker Larry
Gonna ponder this awhile Dougster
No pondering needed there Doug, if it's exposed to the water I'd glass it. What's just a little more work :P

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:54 pm
by Dougster
Well I

(long pause)

OK, this is funny. I typed those two words, which were starting the sentence "Well I guess I knew what you'd say Larry" when I heard an urgent "Doug" cry from my wife. I hollered what and she says "the turkey". Well, I'm spaced and don't get it. We did have a great horned owl on our fence at dusk two days ago which prompted us to lock the chickens up earlier and I thought maybe she was saying something regarding that. She yells again and I remember. Dang!! I'd talked about smoking some ribs this weekend and she'd brought home a big turkey breast instead. Well, smoked turkey's ok and all, but not ribs. Still, she went and got it, not me so after band practice today I rinsed the turkey, muttered about forgetting to brine it, put a rub on it, and got it in the smoker about 3:00pm. Checked it about 6:30 and it was close, around 140F and I'm shooting for 158F. Happy hour, dinner, wine, and I stone cold forgot it! Overshot the time by some hours. Went running down to the smoker and it's on 161F :) Not too bad, kinda like that last cut on the motorwell. You just can't beat lucky.

Anyway, back to the post.

Well I guess I knew what you'd say Larry. You've kinda become my conscience. I hear myself saying "OK, now I know what Larry would do...". I looked at the motorwell today; it's only 3 little 2' rectangles to glass and I'm thinking, well, I know Larry would forgive me if I let it slide but I'd sure hate to disappoint Sam. So....

Hopes the turkey's not too dry tomorrow night Dougster

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:42 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, is the cockpit of the Nina self bailing?
Daddy

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:01 pm
by Cracker Larry
You crack me up Dougster :lol: :lol: How was the turkey :D The charcoal goes out eventually and they don't usually burn too bad. Ask me how I know :lol:

Now this is even funnier. This post was just interrupted for an armadillo hunt. Well not a hunt exactly, but it started with the wife screaming and 2 dogs raising hell.

Daddy, I'm almost 99% sure it is self bailing

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:19 pm
by Dougster
Oh yeah, we got armadillos here. I call 'em all Bob. Bob drives my wife crazy diggin' up her plants. Anything new, sometimes anything watered, well, they can't pass that up. Oddest, dumbest things I know. Half blind and deaf, but they're strong little suckers. The dogs around here kill 'em pretty quick, if the cars don't get 'em first. Our vulture population seems quite fond of 'em. An acquired taste I'm sure. BTW, it was an electric smoker 8O Yeah, I'm ashamed but I got tired of tending the fire and treated myself to a small Cookshack Smoker from Cabella's two years ago. Makes is almost too easy. We held off on the turkey but will start on it tomorrow night. Can't figure why it held at 161 degrees after 7 hrs. at 250 but it still might be a little dry. I'll post tomorrow with this important news.

Gets kinda peeved at old Bob too Dougster

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:51 am
by JohnC
Hey Doug,
In my limited woodworking experience (none related to boats), I would suggest protecting the wood in the motorwell. A little more work now could save you a big headache later. Remember, when the boat is sitting in the water part of the motorwell will be IN the water. As a side note, I am helping an elderly friend of mine do some deck repairs/replacement caused primarily by the pressure treated wood not being sealed or stained when it was installed and even the pressure treated wood is starting to get weak from exposure to water. Same idea, best to protect the wood from the water.

I would be happy to run over to Blanco sometime and see your boat. Let me know what's best for you.
John

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:24 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I measured the left and right swing of my Honda 25A and it takes almost exactly 14 inches to each side or 28 wide. I am sure the well for the motor must be wider than that so it should fit just fine.
Jacques answered my questions on the other thread and I guess I will order the plans for Nina.
have you decided if you are going to drain the footwell back to your bilge pump? Seems like a reasonable thing to do. Are you going to have some kind of covered cuddy? I really like the idea, but, I know, keep it light.
Daddy
PS watch out for Bob

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:27 pm
by Dougster
JohnC: most weekends are good, including this one. I'm off this friday too so let me know. I'll give you directions or we can meet on 281.

Daddy: I got 27" at the bottom of the well and unlimited at the top. Should be fine. And yeah, I'm draining to a sump behind the transom, with maybe two bilge pumps. May also put in stoppable scuppers so she can sit safely in a slip, empty, without depending on bilge pumps. I'm definitely going to put the cuddy cabin in. Which does remind me of a question I have. With the cabin, how do you anchor? Tiptoe around on the little deck? If you find pics or have sketches of bimini ideas I hope you can post them. It's hard to see one working well with the cabin that will fold down out of the way when not in use. Edit: I forgot to say, the turkey was a little dry, but ok :)

Got motor well work plans this weekend Dougster

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:04 am
by DutchNina
Dougster, I looked for some pictures of the Ninigret and looks like you need to do a little tiptoe :D . I am planning to build as well with cabin due to the large amounts of sun here. NOT. :roll:

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Photo ... ret-02.jpg

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:11 am
by Daddy
Dutchnina. where are you that there is so much sun? The Netherlands?
Dougster, one thing I forgot to measure was the height of the motor from the top of the transom to the top of the motor to see how far it would stick up. I am sure that mine is not as high as Eric's, are you going with the 25?
I wonder if a forward hatch would let you get to the anchor without having to creep around the cabin. Maynard Bray (see picture on my blog) said he crawls over the top of his cabin to get forward. I think I would prefer a hatch. :roll:
Daddy

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:22 am
by MulletChoker
We are planning to install a hatch, not only for anchor handlng but also for ventilation.
Thinking about a nice breeze down the hatch while napping at anchor.

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:29 am
by Daddy
Ahhh, nap :)
Daddy

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:46 pm
by Dougster
Daddy---I'm planning 30 hp simply cuz the plans say that's ideal. The hatch is a great idea for the breeze alone, but I'm not sure it can be big enough to handle the anchor from. Hope so though. Tomorrow I'm gonna start sanding the motorwell sides and fooling with my cut goofs there. I still could use some feedback on sealing those cut edges. The builder's notes just say seal with epoxy, which of course I'll do. Maybe I'll dab some quickfair over that too. God knows I've smeared it on everything else.

Manages to slowfair with quickfair Dougster

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:02 pm
by Cracker Larry
I still could use some feedback on sealing those cut edges.
Show us a good picture of it Dougster.

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:10 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, not sure myself, guess it depends somewhat on your agility, size, and size of hatch. Probably be tight. I saw a boat once that had the forward hatch attached to the center window of the cuddy, actually it was all one piece, kind of L shaped, when you opened that hatch you could crawl right out onto the foredeck on your belly and do whatever you needed, pickup a mooring, set an anchor, etc. Would be quite a task to do.
For sealing your motor well cutout, I would use biax tape around all of the edges, maybe two layers along the bottom edge, treat it just as you would all of the seams on your hull, remember? Two layers of tape on the chines, transom and keel and pointy part up front. lots of work, but hey, were tough guys, right? The the quickfair!
Daddy

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:10 am
by DutchNina
@Daddy: Yes, Indeed, I am from the Netherlands, Amsterdam.

@Dougster: You are going for the canvas on top with steel frame? Or are you going to use wood on top?

Assuming you are going to use canvas, maybe its an idea to put in some small roofrails on top, placing a little wood horizontally, put roofrails on top of that with the steel frame below it.

I am planning to get everything cut for me, will work on the cabin today. Will try to provide sample. Maybe Jaques has some suggestions?

Hans

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:56 am
by Daddy
Hans, great city, I was there some years ago for about a week. Do you have some pictures of your Nina?
Daddy

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:04 am
by Dougster
Here's a pic Larry:

Image

You see the cut edges, bare ply that will be in water when right side up and afloat. The notes say coat with epoxy, so of course. Wrapping tape around a half inch edge like that would be a pita. Quickfair isn't particularly tough.
My thoughts are:

1) Three coats of epoxy, then the three coats of graphite epoxy with the bottom
2) 3 coats epoxy, quickfair, graphite
3) 3 coats epoxy, woodflour, graphite

???

Heh Dutch---I dunno if I'll do canvas or wood top yet---completely depends on weight. I'd love to see pics of what your doing. I am not doing a steel frame. The plans show ply.

Daddy---regarding the hatch, time will tell. I don't like the tiptoe idea much but maybe all there is. The hatch sounds good whatever, for ventilation. Time tells

So what do folks think about sealing those edge? What do you say Joel if you're there?

Sealin' with a feelin' Dougster

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:08 am
by JohnC
Hey Doug,
Just sent you an email, today works for me too.
John

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:42 am
by Dougster
Didn't get it John. Try again with dwin
and make that at txwinetdotcom

Having trouble with his dang email Dougster

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:10 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I see the problem, it would be pretty much imposible to wrap that edge. I wonder what the advantage is in having that edge like that, why it is not flush with the motor well? I noticed on one picture of Eric's that edge, the one on the false transom looks like it drags in the water, wonder if it wouldnt be better cut off flush and then wrapped with tape, sure seems like it would be stronger, there must be a reason though, I dont have my plans yet so perhaps shouldnt put my oar in without seeing what they say. Just seems like that edge sticking out an inch or so serves no purpose and might be a drag. I will look for the photo that illustrates my question.
(EDIT) If you go to page 2 of ;the Merritt Island LB22 thread in Builders Power Boats you will see how it looks like he trimmed the opening back to the edge of the motor well
Daddy

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:29 am
by gk108
Leaving the cut like it is makes an I-beam that is stronger than just a 90ร‚ยฐ angle. Somewhere, Eric mentioned spray from water hitting those overhangs being a nuisance. Perhaps a 45ร‚ยฐ filler for the inside angles would help with the spray and make it easier to wrap that edge.

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:06 pm
by Daddy
Great idea. I like it, smoother passage of water and still be able to wrap it with tape.
Daddy

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:58 am
by Daddy
Dougster, wadda ya think? Can't remember if I told you but I ordered the plans for Nina.
Daddy

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:30 pm
by Dougster
I just walked up to post a pic of what I've done to date regarding the edge. That's good news on going with the Nina plans Daddy! If I don't hurry you'll splash first. GK's filler idea is cool and I think he's right about the I-beam thing. Also, that 3" lip on both sided of the well increases the bottom width at the transom from 2' to 2' 6", giving a little more lift where it's needed to plane. I may eventually do the filler thing for water noise, but let's wait for Spokaloo to weigh in there. He's still in Croatia I think. For now I've decided against the wrap thing, as the bottom is faired and wrapping forces a redo of that. I'm kinda trying a middle road, not just epoxy, quickfair, and graphite, but glass that isn't wrapped, but cut flush. Here's a pic:

Image

I'm gonna let the 'poxy get mostly cured, but still a little "green" and try for a good cut right at the edges. Time tells.

Took a middle road Dougster

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:27 pm
by Dougster
OK, here's the look after trimming the glass. I'm OK with it.

Image

So I'd proceed with fairing the inside of the well, but now I'm not too happy with that unglassed ply in there. You see it in the pic above. I keep thinkin' well, that's the hull dang it, and there's no glass on either side there, inside or outside the hull.

Gonna glass that area tomorrow Dougster :)

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:49 pm
by Cracker Larry
Sorry for my late reply.

How about glueing a piece of half-round moulding along the edges, then wrap it with tape?

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:07 pm
by Dougster
Hey Larry, you still waitin' for that big dollar Sterling to jump on the hull? :) The half round is another idea, but nah, I'm done. You can see the finished pic above, the edge is already glassed, just not "wrapped". It's done all around and I glassed the whole inside of the well today. I tried the "wet the glass first" technique. There were three sides of the well to do, each roughly 2' square, so I cut 'em, wet, 'em, and put 'em on. One of 'em had trouble with bubbles and I finally had to just leave the dang things in there to grind out later. Otherwise the wet first thing worked well. Anyway, the well's glassed, except the top 6" (didn't have wide enough scrap), which I can leave. The edges are are glassed in Dougster style (he did it his way :roll: ) Anyway, I'm OK with it. Next fair all that new glass and then scribe a line for the graphite bottom. Sing Hallelujah if I ever get there! Hell sing a dirge, anything, just sing :)

Hopin' good things for you and that Sterling Dougster

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:29 am
by MulletChoker
RE: Merritt Island LB 22, we didn't like that little 'shelf' in the motorwell either and ended up putting a panel of 1/4" ply and filling it with foam, that allowed us to round the edge while maintaining that 'I' beam effect with the stringer.

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:31 pm
by Dougster
Hey Mullet, thanks for chiming in. I'm not settled yet how it finishes, but I'm OK with it being glassed and sealed. Eric (Spokaloo) talks about some spray noise, so maybe some deflection? I don't think he considers it a big deal but he'll weigh in soon enough when he's back to work. How's your build going? I really like seeing what you're doing, as it helps me proceed. The internet's great but dang it I wish you and Eric lived next door! Anyway, keep posting.

Gonna fair the well next Dougster

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:38 pm
by ericsil
Looks like you are coming right along. Be sure to let us know when you are going to roll that thing. I'll give you a hand. The Blanco bowling alley is one of our favorite stops in that part of the world.

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:29 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Eric, will do for sure. Blanco bowling alley cafe is ten minutes or less from me. Be fun to meet for breakfast one day.

Thankin' you for the offer Dougster

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:45 am
by Daddy
Dougster, did you decide to drain your foot well back to the bilge? I have been wondering what to do about it. I am going to relocate the gas tank so that I can have a bigger footwell and put a drop board between the consoles to prevent water from getting in there but wonder if I should run a drain back to the bilge pump?
Daddy

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:27 pm
by Dougster
No drain for me as designed, 'cuz not much water's getting in there I think. That's a good little step up from the cockpit and I can't see water getting up there, then over that area above the fuel tank. If you go the drop board way you may need a drain, but why not just let it drain back underneath the drop board? It's a small area. I'm still seein' her upside down every day and don't conceptualize the upright side world of her right now though.

Been upside down so long it looks like right side up to me Dougster

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:45 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, The drop board will actually be a fixed board to keep any water out of the footwell. Maybe 6 inches high. I will have to find another locatin for the gas tank, probably off to the side, maybe in the port side console. I will have to do something to offset the trim. Do you plan to foam under the sole? I think I will,

Daddy

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:58 pm
by Dougster
Yep, I'm gonna foam. Safety and stiffness; both seem like good things. All for not much weight. Haven't bought any yet though. I also intend to use the kiwigrip stuff. Check out Cracker Larry's nice work with that, making a pattern with it and allowing channels for water to drain easily. Pretty slick.

Waitin' on the weekend Dougster

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:00 pm
by Daddy
I agree about improving stiffness, should make the bottom pretty solid, are you going to add foam under the gunnels for upright floatation? I did not use any foam at all on my GT22, too late now but no regrests either, 35 watertight sealed compartments under the sole.
Scuppers?! I cant find the waterline on the plans, just the baseline which is the line just below the sole. I hope the water line is a bit below that. If I use scuppers I will put them thru the transom and make them stoppable.
Daddy

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:52 am
by gk108
Re: the scuppers...
I found this page in the Ronstan online catalog. http://www.ronstan.com/marine/range.asp?RnID=125

It's confusing, but it looks like the ones you want may be available under a new part number. 8)

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:18 am
by Dougster
Thanks GK, that's what I'm talking about except the plug is on the outside so you couldn't easily remove them underway. You could reverse 'em but I think it would look funny. At a minimum they would work for "rain drain" transom plugs when she's on the trailer though. There's a nice looking chromed brass one I like.

'Precinates it Dougster :)

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:57 am
by Daddy
Good point, I suppose at the very least we need a drain plug in the transom.
for when she is on the trailer.
Daddy

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:07 pm
by DutchNina
Dougster, see yourร‚ยดre making some good progress :-). The drawing seemed the bit harder then expected. Still to continue.. I posted some progress on my blog.

@Daddy, my Nina still has to be build. In the meantime, putting the parts together in a model on drawing table.

Hans
http://dutchiesnina.blogspot.com/

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:34 pm
by Daddy
Hans, checked out your blog. I like the way Tony Bries did the motor well on his Ninegret, I might try to do something like that on my Nina. Takes less room out of the cockpit. I should try a model too, what a great idea.
BTW, I reread your posting about sun Not. I forgot when I was in Amsterdam it rained a little almost every day but i loved it anyway, beautiful city.
Daddy

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:51 pm
by Dougster
Hey Dutch, I checked out your blog too, but being computer limited had some trouble negotiating. Still, I love that graphic of the model with the frames and stringers, and hope you do more. I had less time today, but did get an hour and a half on fairing the motorwell. It's a mess in there, a lumpy, jagged, three walled struggle, that still rates at least a workboat finish, so I soldier on. 'Course, I gotta order more Quickfair :wink: It may be a good thing the stuff is so expensive, less I build a whole boat out of it. All first time boat builders would best beware the tempting siren self talk: "Ah hell, that's good 'nuff, I'll clean it up later with Quickfair". Instead, we best tell ourselves all along the way, "good 'nuff is good 'nuff now, not later".

Says old soldiers, old psychologists, and old fools all turn to philosophers Dougster

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:29 am
by chicagoross
Thinks all boatbuilders turn in to philosophers! :D

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:16 am
by gk108
I don't know, maybe boatbuilders are philosophers first. We obviously do a lot of very deep thinking prior to building a boat. :doh:

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:18 am
by Daddy
A ponder chair in the corner of the shop=thinker, or just confused and no idea of what to do next?
Daddy

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:38 am
by gk108
True. The things pondered in that chair are generally a whole magnitude deeper. :?

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:52 pm
by TomW
A chair, a heater, refrigerartor for libations and ashtrays for smokers results in a magnitude of thoughts pondered above all. :D

Tom

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:54 am
by JohnC
Hey Doug,
Is that the philosopher "Sandus Foreverus" I read about in a thread somewhere? On a boatbuilding note, I talked to Houston Hardwoods a couple days ago (yes, there still is a Houston). I got some pretty fair pricing on Meranti BS1088, is this the supplier you used for your your build?

It sure was a pleasure to come over and meet you last week. I feel a lot better about getting into all of this (not to mention Bonnie doesn't think I've gone completely nuts 8O ).

Let me know if you need an extra pair of hands anytime, and by all means when you're ready to flip. Texas isn't as big as they say it is.

Your "neighbor"
John

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:46 pm
by Spokaloo
And im back. Its been eventful, eh Douggler?

Motorwell cutout:
I did the 3 coats of epoxy, a little filler, and primer/paint program. Boats have been built with glued lapstrake and plywood for DECADES that were properly treated and haven't delaminated, so I just went the as-designed route. I didn't relish the idea of fairing such a sharp edge.

Bow hatch:
Great concept and idea, but bear in mind the A bulkhead is kind of in the way of the ninigret-designed hatch. Your hatch will need to be a little further astern and slightly smaller. I typically tie my anchor to the side cleats when Im in the lake, and occasionally to the bow eye if its rough by leaning over the deck. Id probably consider doing the 12" cleat on the bow, with rope chocks forward. That way you can heave the anchor over the side at the helm, pop a few snaps off the forward canvas by the windshield, toss the rope into the chock, and tie her up tight on the big bow cleat. Easy peazy.

Splashwell:
After a tremendous amount of bickering over at the WB forum, I have repeatedly tried to explain the splashing in my boat. Everyone thinks that green water comes up into that well, which it does NOT do. From about 9mph up, it runs 100% cleanly. The spray you see in my boat is due to the drive leg splashing spray up from where it meets the water. Im about 3/4" - 1" below the bottom of the boat with my cav plate to minimize cavitation from the skeg. This causes a little more spray because the drive leg is a little wider. Chock this up to the bigger motor and my wife thinking she might wakeboard occasionally (1 time this year, definitely worth the extra work and the bigger motor, don't you think?).

If the spray is a concern, I think I would actually do it with a foam block rather than the 1/4". Get a piece of block that is epoxy-compatible, shape it to fit, lay glass, fair, done!

Glad to see everything is going well. You won't notice the motorwell hooey after the paint is on it, but its nothing that a block plane can't fix. No worries, man, just keep building.


Did I mention its 40 degrees colder than when I left here?

E

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:24 pm
by Dougster
Hey Eric, good so see you back. You left the country and our economy collapsed! Stick around, we need you. Re the spray thing, it's a non issue to me unless it bugs me after the build, then I'll deal with it then. The anchoring thing sounds doable but not if I do a light little quarter inch ply top. Still, I used to anchor off the bow quarter all the time in my little 19' bay boat, so not a big deal. Re the motorwell, I glassed most of it, now I'm smearing several thousand dollars of quickfair over it to sand off... It'll be done this weekend and then time to mark the line where the graphite bottom begins! That is tough for me. I want it above the waterline, so if I leave the boat in a slip for a week I don't have to worry about the topside paint. I also don't want the sun melting black epoxy on the side of the boat, but that worries me less. If you remember I did a test piece and left it out a month last summer in the hot sun to no effect. Maybe I post cured it? :) Anyway, I'm closing in on this whole fairing motorwell thing, and look forward to the graphite and then turning her. The trailer is ordered too. I took the guy the molds to help fit the bunks, which will be adjustable. He was talking two axles, 4 wheels and I said whoah, I dunno. That seems like overkill to me...a 4 wheeled trailer for little Nina. I said I'd get back to him. Again, glad to have you back. You got pics?

Held down the fort as best he could Dougster

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:45 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I have a two wheel Karavan for my GT22, a way bigger and heavier boat than Nina, way heavier! Works fine, four adjustable bunks. I will dig up the model number if you want. I am going to buy the exact same trailer for my Nina when I build it.
Daddy

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:17 am
by Spokaloo
I did a relatively half-assed job on fairing my motorwell, so good on ya.

Single axle trailers are PLENTY for this light little boat....

E

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:54 pm
by DutchNina
@All, Maybye i am dumb.. made maybe some mistakes with drawing, but.. how did the frames fit to the stringers? When I do follow the drawings exactly and try to place everything in a model.. does not fit exactly. What are your experiences?

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:55 pm
by Spokaloo
DN, did you go through the tutorials on the builders page?

E

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:09 pm
by Daddy
Hans, it should all fit, maybe you made a mistake in scaling, you are using metric though, should be easier than trying to do it in inches, maybe go back and check your numbers. I have not started mine yet so no help I guess.
Daddy

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:20 pm
by DutchNina
Daddy, indeed, I do have the drawings in metric. I did draw all the parts, but when trying to assemble them I do have some "fitting" problems with the stringers on the frames. Nothing real big. As my stuff is just a digital model, I was wondering if anyone experienced the same whilst cutting and fitting real wood.

Spokaloo, hope you had great vacation. Just drawing Nina, not building yet.

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:35 pm
by Daddy
Hans, I have a feeling that even if I cut everything perfectly I would have trouble putting those little pieces together which is why I am almost considering a 1'=2" ratio. It would make my model about 44 inches long. Wow! That's big. Keep trying.
Daddy

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:04 pm
by DutchNina
daddy, i am doing one-one one model on PC in a CAD program :-)

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:15 pm
by Dougster
You might check the pics in the early pages of this thread. I think there are some of things going together. It all fit for me. I didn't notch both frames and stringers, that seemed like a recipe for a goof up to me. I just notched the frames deep enough to fit down to the hull. Of course you gotta make sure the stringers are dang sure parallel down the hull or there'll be some head scratchin' for sure. With no notches in the stringers, you just notch the frames and put 'em in at their proper spacings. 'Course I may not be understanding the question properly.

Ordered the third last batch of Quickfair Monday Dougster :)

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:54 am
by MulletChoker
Our stringers were 'dang sure parallel' but we neglected to make sure they were dang perpendicular... had a little 'adjusting' on those flag panels that form the motorwell sides. live and learn.
The cockpit foam is poured and we install the sole tomorrow.

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:55 pm
by Dougster
The cockpit foam is poured and we install the sole tomorrow.

Wow, that's great Mullet, I really look forward to getting her over and the sole in the boat. Give us some pics if you can. One step at a time for me though. Quickfair is drying in the motorwell, but I need some more. I'm getting closer to the graphite thing and gotta decide how far up the hull to bring it. I'm thinkin' about 3" above the sole, maybe 4"? Anybody got any thoughts?

Dang sure he's not sure Dougster

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:33 pm
by Cracker Larry
Anybody got any thoughts?
DWL plus an inch is where I put mine. Just about at sole level. I figured I could make any corrections with a boot stripe.

I wouldn't bring it up much past the WL if it were me. 4" above the sole seems too high. But what do I know, beauty is in the eye of the beerholder :lol:

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:58 pm
by TomW
Dougster it depends if you are going to trailer or keep her in the water. Like Larry says 1" or maybe 2" is fine for trailering. For keeping at a slip minimun of 2"- 3" is what is pretty normal. That protects the main coat from wake and storm surges. You definately don't want to go over 4" I have seen higher and it looks really funky on smally boats.

Tom

PS: I like 2" but like Larry says beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That was also when I painted the bottom a complementary antifouling color. So it did not look bad. :wink:

Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:50 pm
by Spokaloo
Id probably go with 1-2" above the waterline personally. As close as possible, so that you can either do a vinyl or painted bootstripe and minimize the chances of the black being heated.

E

Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:33 am
by Dougster
Thanks guys, my mind begins to clarify. She'll live on a trailer Tom, but may spend a week or so in a slip sometimes so I figured the 1" thing wouldn't do. I worried about the look of 3" or 4" and the heat thing, though as I said, my test piece (Silvertip/graphite) didn't care with worse treatment. So 2" or so I'm thinkin'. And now the million dollar question: where its that DWL? Jacques posted somewhere recently on another Nina thread that it's designed to be 3.5" below the sole. Given I'm a new builder and consume huge quantities of resin and quickfair, call it 3"? Yours is probably less at the stern, right Eric, with your bigger motor? BTW, more Quickfair came today :)

Narrowing things down Dougster

Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:40 am
by Dougster
Well I just checked the thread where Jacques posted the DWL. He said 3.5" below the Baseline, not the sole. My plans are down in the shop and I don't recall if the sole is right at the baseline or not, but I'll check tomorrow.

Says it's always something Dougster

Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:45 am
by Daddy
Dougster, the baseline is a the top of the stringers, the line where the sole and stringers meet so the DWL is 4" below the top of the sole.
Daddy

Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:27 pm
by Spokaloo
Correct, Im a little lower aft.

E

Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:31 pm
by Daddy
That's that heavy motor E,
Daddy

Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:40 pm
by TomW
Dougster when you figure where to paint don't forget DWL is for a certain load. You need to figure what her enpty load is and paint it from there. Otherwise you will end up with a 3-4" waterline.

Tom

Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:47 pm
by Dougster
Now dang gummitt Tom, just when I start to clarify and all... :) Well, here's a quote from Jacque on Nina:
I have a designed waterline but how the boat floats depends on how close you will follow the plans and load her.
The plans say draft at DWL = 9.5". That puts it 3-1/2" below the baseline BUT again, it depends on the load.
And then there is the trim. The designed waterline is for the specified engine, 2 men at the console, 1/2 tank etc.
I'm going with his recommended 30hp. Motor weight is beginning to look around 185#. "Two men" is replaced by the whopping 180# Dougster and his little 5' none 105# best girl. Heavier than designed boat since I'm a beginner and have the cabin mod. As I talk I think I'm re-clarifying. So, put the DWL with me and my girl at 3" below the BL still sound right? BTW, lucky is good. I put 18+ ounces of quickfair in the well 3 hours ago, and after I did it realized that my mental math on the 3 to 7 ratio wasn't right. I did 2 to 4 1/3, when it should have been 2 to 4 2/3, but it's hard right now and sands well :) Lucky is good.

Thankin' folks for chiming in Dougster

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:06 am
by TomW
Dougster no problemo with the QF mix you just used a little extra hardener than you needed to. It will just get tough to sand sooner if you don't ge it sanded right away.

Tom

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:25 pm
by Dougster
Yeah Tom, it was pretty hard! But an hour with the RO, and another with the Fein multimaster and then by hand ended up good 'nuff for a motorwell. It's no peoplewell, but there it is. Now back to my clarity thing. I'm sorry to go on and on with this but I don't get it. That whole DWL thing. Again, here's a quote from Jacques:

I
have a designed waterline but how the boat floats depends on how close you will follow the plans and load her.
The plans say draft at DWL = 9.5". That puts it 3-1/2" below the baseline BUT again, it depends on the load.
And then there is the trim. The designed waterline is for the specified engine, 2 men at the console, 1/2 tank etc.
OK, the 9.5" is on the plans, I always saw that. How he got to the 3.5" from there I dunno, but have full faith in it. Here's the thing. 9.5" from what? The bottom of the skeq? The skeg is 8.5" at it's deepest, less than 3' from the stern. That would mean she's floating only 1" deep 3' from the stern. Can't see it. I'm not seeing things right. Unless you're building her, it's hard to see, I know. Eric and Mullet: what do you guys think? Daddy, you been hittin' the plans, what do you think?

He's missing something Dougster

Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:12 pm
by cape man
I just looked at the study plans and he lists a 13" draft at DWL. 9.5" skeg + 3.5" for the DWL = 13". Is that where the math got you screwy?

Looking at the lines I'm not sure how this boat is going to sit at rest, so don't really have any advice on picking the waterline, but assume it as at least 1" below the bottom of the sole, and runs along that line. That's what I assumed when I picked mine. I went with the same choice as Larry for where the graphite went to - 1" above the waterline. The graphite/epoxy is not UV protected, so you want it below the water, and in the shade when the boat is sitting on the trailer unless you cover it with a clear coat that's UV tolerant. It is gorgeous when done, and think it would look great higher up if you UV protect it. Actually had a wild idea of a jet black, glossy boat that was all graphite and epoxy on the outside. Maybe a really bright bootstripe...flames...a lightening bolt!

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:46 am
by Spokaloo
Ill put a tape on wherever you need me to Doug, its out of the water.

E

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:21 pm
by Daddy
Well now Dougster, I checked my plans and guess I am unable to help. Maybe if E puts a tape on his WL we will both know something. The other option would be to accept Jacques numbers as gospel and go with that. E's motor is bigger than the one you are going to use so you should be able to shave a bit off of his number
Daddy

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:18 pm
by Dougster
Eric, that would be cool if you could see how far beneath the BL (top of the stringers) your waterline is. I'm betting it's 2" or so at the stern but I'd love to know. Thanks for the math Cape Man, I believe that's the source of my confusion! I'm comfortable with Jacques' 3.5" below the BL calculations as designed with 30hp. Of course Jacques can't be held accountable for my excessive use of epoxy and quickfair. Good thing that quickfair's so expensive or God help me, I'd still be spreading it on I guess :)

Thankin' you guys for helping here Dougster

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:22 pm
by Spokaloo
Im not exactly sure how Im going to accomplish that, but Ill see what I can do.

E

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:25 pm
by Daddy
Why E, that is easy as pie, just drill a 1/4 hole thru your hull right at the sole and then measure down.... see, easy! :D
Daddy

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:39 pm
by Cracker Larry
But remember to subtract the sole thickness :wink: :lol:

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:39 pm
by gk108
Park the boat under the garage door and measure the distance from the door frame down and do a little arithmetic :?:

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:29 pm
by Dougster
From the motorwell stern, 24" forward, the BL is 4.5" from the hull. i.e. the stringer is 4.5" high right there. If there's a waterline stain on Cloudcap, why there you are 8) The distance between that stain and 4.5" from the bottom of the hull, that's the mystery number. Not that you would allow any such stain to exist, or that I am likely to have all these numbers right by memory. It's not a big deal Eric, I'm coming to some understanding in my own weird mind and will set a line. Right now I'm leaning for 2" above the waterline, which, given Jacques 3.5" below the BL calculation would put it 1.5" below my BL. I'll knock off the .5" as an amateur builder with a heavy boat and figure 1". So, black bottom up to 1" below the top of the stringers. Easy peasy? :D

Says at least that's how it stands tonight Dougster

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:33 pm
by Daddy
Get someone to hold a level over the gunnel and measure down both sides and you got it. :
Daddy 8)

Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:39 pm
by Spokaloo
Sounds like you got'er licked Doug.

E

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:33 pm
by Dougster
Well, I'm callin' her fair 'nuff. There's a concern on the starboard chine line. It weaves a bit, but dunno how it'll look right side up. Out of the blue I decided to prime the whole hull, even the bottom. I re-read C. Larry's graphite bottom section and liked the idea of overlapping the graphite on top of the primer. Then I thought about seeing her all primed and checking that by eye for fair and, well. So I just ordered a gallon of S3 yacht primer. Now I gotta wait and wish I'd of thought of this last week. Still, moments pressure decisions and ya can't rush 'em. BTW, I saw your reference to a possible FL26 build Eric? What's that? Don't hold out on us, that's a big deal. I confess to unchaste feelings for Evan's upcoming MM21. It continues.

Livin' by the sheer curve Dougster

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:30 pm
by Spokaloo
Its all very preliminary, not altogether sure. Still in the information collection phase.

E

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:34 am
by chicagoross
"I confess to unchaste feelings for Evan's upcoming MM21"

Damn, Dougster, at least I got the last boat wet before new boat lust set in again...

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:06 pm
by JohnC
Hey Doug,
Just because you have room on the other side of the garage doesn't mean you have to put a boat there! I guess I better get started on the first one. Glad to hear you're ready to prime and have the motorwell issues resolved.

I did finally get over my indecision on building a small boat first (FS12/14),
I'm going to go straight to the HMD18/19 when I'm ready. Like ChicagoRoss said, "just alot more plywood" right? 8O I can't see buying all the plywood, epoxy, etc. (not to mention the Merc 9.9 motor, I'll just make it a BigFoot) and spending the time to build a boat I don't really have a use for.

In the meantime, just waiting for rain. Canyon Lake is down to 899' MSL
(ouch!), starting to look like a duck pond.

John

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:01 am
by Dougster
Hey John, good to hear from you. Glad you're doing the HMD; lotta uses for it around here. Big projects are fun. How's the search for a build site going? I'm ready to lend a hand when need be. I wish I was ready to schedule a flip party but no way. Right now I'm waiting on primer and just spot sanding and fussing around a little, also trying to read up a bit on applying the primer. I know you roll it on, but do you tip it too? Any special rollers or will the little HD pink ones do? Dunno yet. I'm going slow and Nina's getting a little impatient to be right side up. She's enjoyed this turn turtle rubbin' on her bottom but wants to get on with things.

Says the feeling is mutual Dougster :)

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:24 am
by gk108
Dougster, I'd say that tipping the primer is optional. If you don't tip it, you'll have a surface similar to just about any latex paint that is rolled on. Two coats will give you a nice thickness to sand smooth. I keep a tipping brush handy when priming to help smooth the paint sometimes. On my V10, I also tipped the primer adjacent to the bright finished areas to (hopefully) create a smoother transition.

I've used nothing but 3/8" nap rollers for primer. :wink:

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:47 am
by Dougster
Thanks kindly GK, I have no painting skills so sure appreciate the help. I'll tip with a foam brush, I guess, if for no other reason than to get some practice with the technique. Two coats it is, than sand eh? Mind you, at my pace it'll be a year or more before I get around to painting the hull, though I'll do the graphite bottom right away. I guess I'll need to sand it again then before I finally paint and put on another couple of coats?

Workin' toward a plan Dougster

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:51 am
by Cracker Larry
also trying to read up a bit on applying the primer. I know you roll it on, but do you tip it too?
Doug, I don't tip it at all, but like GK said, I keep a small foam brush handy for drips and splatters. The old style S3 primer dried too fast to tip it. The new version gives you time but it really smooths out without having to tip. I use the Wizz 4" door and cabinet rollers. They don't last long so buy plenty. Lowes carries them in 6 packs.

The primer is a breeze to apply, very user friendly. Like GK, I also put on 2 coats before sanding. Then probably 2 more.

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:55 am
by Cracker Larry
guess I'll need to sand it again then before I finally paint and put on another couple of coats?
I let mine sit for a year with 4 coats of primer. Just sanded it last week and put on 2 more coats. After a year it get's plenty scuffed up from working around her, plus you will drill and fill all your drains and other fittings, so all those needed priming.

My thinking was it's better to sit in the sun with primer than to sit with bare epoxy.

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:15 pm
by chicagoross
Like Larry said, through-hulls etc. will require a little more priming before final coat; this is not the time for the finish coat! I've seen a few do that on these threads and all ended up starting over again.

You can do graphite on the bottom, though, and not worry too much about messing it up later. Then whatever painting you have to do at the end is above the waterline, above the trailer that you're (hopefully) sitting on by then.

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:02 pm
by JohnC
Hey Doug,
I found a space (12'x30') a couple miles from home that might work out OK, still looking for something a little closer. There's always the backyard, the HOA would love it! 8) . The rules say "No permanent structures" but doesn't say anything about permanent "projects" :D . Let you know more later.
John

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:35 pm
by Dougster
I put two coats of primer on today. I've never painted anything except to roll latex on the outside of my shop, so this was a bit of an adventure. The Yacht Primer is very forgiving stuff but does not cover as well as I thought it would. I started with a 3/8" nap roller and didn't like it so I moved to my trusty little 6" pink HD rollers with 1/4"nap which I liked better. I still needed to tip and used a few disposable foam brushes for that. First I vacuumed the hull, then used the "two rag" thing folks told me about (Tom, I think). Mineral Spirits on one rag in one hand, and dry in the other. I went around the hull twice that way and felt good about it. Thanks Tom. Then it was mix the paint and get to it. I let it dry about 3 hours and put the second coat on. I used 54 ozs for the hull, which may be about 200 sq. ft. Nearly half the gallon is left. You'll see what I mean about the coverage here in the first pic. BTW, how's the search for space going John?

Image

Image


As you can see, it's got a bit of a mottled look. But it's only two coats, and I think they're pretty thin since I have a half gallon left. Seems ok to me. Next is graphite on the bottom, then a long time till I paint the sides. I figure I'll sand and put on two more coats of the primer on the sides then. Lemme know if I'm not figuring right. For those who have this chore ahead of 'em and haven't painted before, I'd say the Yacht Primer is a very nice product to get you feet wet with.

Worn out and ready for happy hour Dougster :)

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:10 pm
by Cracker Larry
Hey Dougster. Looks great 8) The coverage of the primer is kinda thin, that's why it needs a few coats. Mottled is normal in my experience.Did you thin it at all?
Lemme know if I'm not figuring right.
Sounds like perfect figuring to me. No need to get too carried away with the topside finish at this point.

I've been sanding Sterling all afternoon, happy hour here also. Cheers :wink:

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:21 pm
by TomW
Happy hour hear also Dougster, I also put a couple coats of primer on. Should be ready for topcoat Monday. I used the yellow foam roller from Shine worked good for me I think they are 1/4" nap.

Here's to the weekend and hopefully some warm days for curing primer after another coat or so tomorrow.

Tom

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:32 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Dougster wrote:I put two coats of primer on today. First I vacuumed the hull, then used the "two rag" thing folks told me about (Tom, I think). Mineral Spirits on one rag in one hand, and dry in the other. I went around the hull twice that way and felt good about it.Worn out and ready for happy hour Dougster :)
Looking good Dougster :!:

I am kind of wondering if mineral spirits is the best thing to prep with. I am usually wrong about matters involving paint but the stuff seems to leave a residue for me.

Happy hour here at the fishing shack in Aripeka too.....

Richard

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:08 pm
by chicagoross
Looking good, Dougster! Curious - what advantage is there to priming the bottom if you're going to roll graphite anyway?

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:18 pm
by Aripeka Angler
chicagoross wrote:Looking good, Dougster! Curious - what advantage is there to priming the bottom if you're going to roll graphite anyway?
None really, unless you want to do additional fairing. Then it makes it easier to see the guide coat on the primer. I suspect that is the case here....

Richard

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:47 pm
by Daddy
Makin' progress Dougster, keep it up. Wish I could get started on my Nina but got to get another boat out of the shop first. Spent the day cleaning out junk that found it's way into the shop when I wasn't looking. More tomorrow.
Daddy
Cold up here in Vermont, still a little snow on the ground but supposed to warm up this weekend. The mountains are well covered and the skiiers must be happy.

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:46 am
by Dougster
Good grief, snow already! We dunno about that stuff down here. It's 61 this morning with a high predicted in the low 80's. Easy building weather. Larry, I didn't thin the primer, it seemed to go on easily as is. I tipped with a little 3" foam brush (used 4 to do the whole hull) and could have used a wider one. Re the mineral spirits and residue, well, I hope not! It seems good, I'll do the tape test later to make sure it's stuck for good. I did the bottom for pretty much the reason Aripeka said. I'm not gonna use another guide coat but wanted to see it not so mottled (it's less so now that it's dry) so my eye can find fairing issues. I right away found one little high spot on the starboard chine that'll want some sanding. I gotta read up on how soon you can sand it.

Movin' down the slow lane Dougster

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:29 am
by TomW
Dougster I had no problems with the mineral spirits and primer as I said in my previous post. If you didn't feel any residue on your fingers after wiping with the wet rag ther won't be any on the boat. As I said have used it for years with no problems under some very expensive latex finishes for kitchen cabinets.

Good luck on the tape test :D Mine worked fine when I tested it, like I said I don't like to ruin good paint either. :D

Tom

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:11 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Tom---I just sanded the whole hull quickly with 120 grit and it seems stuck on there just fine. The sanding marked up the pretty smooth grey but I did find several areas that were not acceptable. One was a small hump in the chine that I hadn't seen without the primer on, so it served it's purpose there. The little hump sanded down pretty fair in about 2 minutes. Another two spots want a tablespoon of quickfair, a few more may be good 'nuff, etc. If I don't go to Houston next weekend to pick up Nina's trailer, it'll be graphite bottom time!

Says nah, not all, but a lot of it's good Dougster

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:19 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, what did you decide on for a trailer?
Daddy

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:29 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Doug, mineral spirits is full of oil. It would be good as a prep for Sterling but I would not use it for S3.
Here is the email I got from S3 just a little while ago...

We'd use lacquer thinner. Mineral spirits may leave an oily film.

System Three Resins, Inc.
Technical Support
253/333-8118
www.systemthree.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Grimes
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 12:13 PM
To: Submitted Form
Subject: Support Request Form

Name = Richard Grimes
Address =
city =
State = Florida
State_outside =
Country = USA
zip = 33525
phone = 352-424-2419
email =
Request = Is mineral spirits suitable to clean epoxy coated surfaces with
prior to priming with S3 yacht primer? Thanks in advance, Richard

Tom, I agree with the experts at S3. Oily thinner should not be used under the Yacht primer :D

Richard

Edit, I removed my email address.

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:33 pm
by Cracker Larry
Me too. I only use water with S3. Mineral spirits just doesn't seem right for a water based paint.

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:46 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Cracker Larry wrote:Me too. I only use water with S3. Mineral spirits just doesn't seem right for a water based paint.
Larry, I had enough trouble with the stuff without oil being brought into the mix. Their instructions say apply to a clean oil free surface. Any paint that cleans up with water should not be prepped with mineral spirits.....

Richard

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:25 pm
by gk108
You guys are scaring me. :oops:

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:50 pm
by Aripeka Angler
gk108 wrote:You guys are scaring me. :oops:
Don't be scared. Just don't prep water based paint surfaces with greasy, oil based mineral spirits.......
Richard

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:23 am
by TomW
Richard high quality mineral spirits should not be oily. The stuff I buy leaves no residue, have been using it on water based finishes for years. S3 does recommend laquer thinner so if you guys don't want to use mineral spirits and want the same affects then use lacquer thinner.

I have no problem using either one, MS is what I have used for years with no problems, LT is just another wipe down medium, but use something water doesn't take the hand oils off the surface.

Tom

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:23 am
by Dougster
You know seems like, now I think of it, I've seen this issue before. Some old thread with a guy whose paint failed and some folks thought maybe it was mineral spirits...but I'm not sure. Anyway, if S3 people say Laquer Thinner and not MS then that's safest. I just read this and trotted down to Nina. I stuck two pieces of duct tape on her and pulled one up right away with no problem. How long do I let the other one set before pulling it? I didn't notice any residue and used HD MS. Any other tests? I did sand it yesterday and it seems stuck fine. It's just a little thing. Daddy, I went with an aluminum trailer, custom from Instigator Trailers in Houston. It's gonna be all adjustable and I took 'em the old stations to use to fix the bunks (there'll be two). I may pick it up this friday, but sure hate the drive to Houston (3 hrs) which kills the day.

Hopin' things stick Dougster :)

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:11 am
by gk108
I'd say if the paint hasn't pulled up with the tape by now, you are good to go. My little problem became obvious within a day of application, but it was on the topcoat. It was also more related to not wiping down than what I was wiping with. I did use fresh, clean MS and new, clean rags each time. That seems important, no matter which solvent you use.

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:29 am
by Dougster
Thanks for the post GK, after reading it I went down and ripped of the duct tape (had been on an hour) and all was well. Maybe I'll stick a piece on and leave it a few days, then let 'er rip and see. Graphite bottom is scheduled to go on next weekend or the one after so I wanna be sure. Sandin' off primer is one thing, dunno wanna think about sanding off graphite 8O I will say using some kinda solvent to wipe down is good, 'cuz I got a lotta stuff up, probably including oil from hands and arms during last summer's sweaty, hot long board fun.

Not really missing his long board Dougster

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:56 am
by TomW
On my test I let it cure 3 days Dougster. It's supposed to be cured after 24 hours at 70 degrees. Heres hoping I didn't lead you astray. As I said my expeience has always been good, but there is always a first time.

Tom

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:01 am
by Dougster
Not to worry Tom, I read all the posts and make my own decisions. It seems fine to me, but I will stick some Duct tape on and leave it a day or two, then rip. This has only cured 36 hrs. and it stood up fine to the tape just now. Temp was in the mid 70's.

Gonna start markin' the line for the graphite Dougster

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:32 pm
by ks8
Woohoo! Waterline time! Congrats! 8)

Even if you've got lots to go, that's a big step and worth celebrating!

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:39 pm
by Dougster
Well, yeah, I'm sure glad to get there. I'm back to my old second guessing of where the dang thing is though. Jacques clearly says 3.5" below the BL, which is kinda weird at the stern. That would mean the stern is sitting only an inch deep, at best (not counting the skeg). Course I'm not really drawing the waterline, but the line for the graphite, which is to be 2" - 3" above the waterline. Daddy, you've been pouring over the plans, does the DWL at 3.5" below the BL seem right to you? And do you agree the BL is the top of the stringers? I'm just second guessing really, 'cuz basically I'm gonna bring the graphite to within 1" or so of the sole I guess.

Wants to get that graphite on Dougster

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:00 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, browsing the plans is all I can do and 3.5" below the BL which is the top of the stringers, yes, I believe that. So you are planning graphite almost at the BL? Maybe and inch or so below? Give her heck D, BTW, where does Spok's WL appear to be based on the gunk on his hull? Of course the gunk line is actually higher than the WL at least that is the case on my GT22.
Daddy, no help at all really :?

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:50 am
by Dougster
Yep, it's a comfort to hear you describe it just as I see it. I don't know where Eric's WL is but it would be different with the heavier engine on the back anyway. Anyway, as you said, I'm thinking about bringing the graphite up to one inch or so beneath the stringer tops.

Back to work on Monday morning Dougster

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:05 am
by Lower
Primer is looking good. Must be nice to see one uniform color on her after all those batches of fillers, quickfair, etc!

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:13 am
by Cracker Larry
Just wait until that graphite goes on. Then you'll get to look at something real shiny 8)

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:13 pm
by Dougster
I'm lookin' forward to the graphite getting done, but am trying be sure I dot all the i's first. I'm hoping you guys will weigh in here. My transom corners are knife edged, as in this picture:

Image

I now notice Shine in his ongoing build as well as other guys round that whole transom side edge. Thinking about getting paint and graphite to stick on knife edges got me to wondering: do I need to sand those places round?

Willin' if need be Dougster

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:28 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Doug, a 1/16 radius worked for me on my boat. The paint stuck just fine :wink:

Richard

I added a pic. It's not a show quality boat but you can see the slightly radiused corners at the chine and transom. I should have ran the graphite to the waterline but I didn't know better at the time :wink: This is primer but the paint is still stuck like iron.

Image

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:30 pm
by Daddy
Probably you need to just break that knife edge if you want paint to stick to it. Hand sand it and it should be fine.
Daddy

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:37 am
by Lower
I rounded my transom side edges, but my chine edges are sharp. I ended up hand sanding them a little just to take that edge off. They still look sharp and the paint sticks. Don't have to take off much, just knock them down a bit. BTW...I've seen a bunch of transom side edges that look that way, I think it looks nice. I didn't do it because mine were already rounded and I didn't have the patience to square them off :!: Boat's coming along nicely.

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:26 am
by Lucky_Louis
Great looking edge Dougster - you're getting to be QFP (quick fair professional)

Like the boys said, just break the edge by hand with some 120 grit and you're good to go. My graphite has been on 4 years now and still looks like new. The 120 will leave a good tooth and remember that graphite isn't paint, it's epoxy - so sanding marks get covered unlike paint.

Image

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:49 pm
by Dougster
OK guys, sounds good; that's the plan. I'll knock down that edge, then check she's level again, then start markin' just above the DWL. And I do appreciate that QF.

Says it's fun to be movin' on Dougster :)

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:57 pm
by Spokaloo
Good gravy Doug!

Take the line I described, whack that stinkin graphite on there, and get her back on her hull ASAP! You keep farting around like this and we are going to start calling you KS8....

You can always scuff the graphite with a scotchbrite pad and paint it back down if its too high, you can put a vinyl tape bootstripe or painted bootstripe on it, any myriad option. Just quit worrying about it and put it down!

As for the aft end, I left a very hard edge at chine and transom, but anywhere that water doesnt touch when planing I put a generous radius on. The transom to side panel joints are a big meaty 1/2" radius because I like the curved shape back there, and its less stuff to break if someone bumps into me or I bump into a dock. Round edges can take a BEATING where a squared off one tends to be brittle.

You'll do fine. If not, you built it, you can fix it.

Glad to be back from Mexico and see you are workin!

E

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:47 pm
by cape man
Dougster,

Maybe not knife sharp, but the edge on my transom was pretty sharp. Had no prob getting the graphite to stick. I'd just scuff it up to make sure the epoxy sticks and go for it.

Image

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:41 pm
by Cracker Larry
Mine's mighty sharp also, but no problem with the epoxy graphite sticking. Who cares anyway? I went to a lot of trouble to make that sharp edge, not going to round it back over just to make some graphite happy :lol:

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:45 pm
by Dougster
Good to have you back Eric. You often read me right, I been doin' too much pondering. 'Bout to break out tho. Woulda but got a cold thing and chilled all day today. Had off yesterday, felt punky but enjoyed a hike in a local state park along a gin clear river (the PNW would call it a stream). Saw big carp, lotta pertch, many little 12""-18" catfish, and one big, maybe 4 lb. bass in the river. Local cypress trees were turnin' burnt orange and something called Sumac, a big bush or if you're feeling charitable a little tree, are all bright orange these days. One of those sun drenched, day after a norther perfect days, not to be misused. I did get down to Nina and round off the transom sides today.

Says he's not skeered of that old graphite Dougster

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:50 pm
by Spokaloo
Sounds like a nice day out.

Got off the plane last night at midnight, went to bed at 0115, got up at 0600 and have been protecting and serving all day long. Didn't even get to look under the cover of my boat, and I still have to get the little metal one ship shape for crabbing in two weeks.

Are you workin again or are you off still?

E

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:47 am
by Dougster
I'm back at work Eric, but only 4 days a week (have fridays off). Great schedule really, but I'm busy those four days. Can't complain about having a job these days. I don't envy you getting back the night before work. That's behind me now, I try to get back from a trip the day before if possible. No boat building today, it's band jam time. Four guys and a lotta noise. Nina's used to it :)

Says eight to bar will do just fine Dougster

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:48 am
by Dougster
Well she's got a black bottom, but I'm not ready to call it good 'nuff. There are hundreds of tiny little specks you that catch the light and you can feel with your hand. Otherwise it's mirror smooth like it should be. Here's what I did:

1. Sifted the dry graphite through a flour sifter
2. Mixed a 2:1:1 ratio (resin:hardener:graphite) I used 8oz resin, then 4:4
3. Stirred in graphite for a good minute
4. Rolled with little pink rollers from HD, tipped with foam brush

I don't think the specks are from the foam brush, 'cuz I saw 'em from the get go, before the brush. I think they are bits of graphite? Should I have strained the wet mix like paint before rolling it? Here's pics. First I taped the line and put a skirt on her, then rolled.

Image

Image

Image

Image

The last pic shows the little specks catching the light. You can feel 'em with your hand. Well, I didn't wanna sand graphite, :( but I believe I won't be the first. Now, I only need to take those specks off when I sand, and I know from Larry's thread not to use 80 grit! So maybe knock it down with 120, 180, or even less? Gotta think a little. I could tolerate the bottom but the little area above the chine will show on the trailer so I oughta try harder.

Lookin' fer ideas Dougster

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:16 am
by cape man
Dougster,

I feel your pain. Had the same thing happen with mine, and ended up sanding the whole bottom before I put the last coat of epoxy on.
Image
Like the idea of straining the mix before applying. Report back on that if you do it. I sifted the graphite through a large tea strainer, stirred aggressively, and then used the roller to "mix" the pieces of graphite that stood up on the bottom. I started with 120 grit on my RO to sand it, but quickly said screw it and loaded up the 60 grit. DO NOT envy you, and get ready to make one heck of a mess. Still had some of the pieces of graphite show up after all my efforts, and said "good enough". All in all it is a very slick, very shiny, very black bottom that looks great, and should help me when I run her up on a beach to unload camp. Remember...it's the bottom and no one will ever see it unless one of us crawls up under it on the trailer to find a flaw in your build.

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:23 am
by JIM M
Had the same little specks on mine to, I put a skirt on her like you did then wet sanded with 180. If you wet sand there is no black dust just black water, with the skirt and some plastic on the floor cleanup is easy. After sanding I did another coat and mixed for 3 or 4 minutes that helped but still had a few specks.

Jim

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:43 am
by Spokaloo
A boatbuilder friend of mine calls those specks "scobies". Why, I have no idea.

Get out your trusty cabinet scraper, Doug, and just try going through and knocking the nubbins off. See where you are at then. Once you think you are down to having to sand, follow Jim's advice and wet sand, you will be VERY happy you did.

E

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:43 am
by tobolamr
Would something like this help for straining after mixing? Or would it be too thick to get through the strainer?

http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?item ... pe=PRODUCT

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:50 pm
by Dougster
Scobies eh? Well I don't like 'em. Tobo---those strainers look nice but I'm thinkin' just cheesecloth or maybe those bags they sell for straining paint. Eric, I had thought of the scraper deal. Wish I could do that and not sand. First I gotta see if can lay the stuff without the "scobies". I mean, sure wouldn't be cool to sand that mess then lay some more down just as bad. I need someone to walk me through how you wet sand. If I gotta have the hose runnin' she's gonna have to be moved outside. Doable, cuz the jig is on rollers, but it's a job by myself. If I can get by with buckets of water I'd stay inside. Can you use the RO and wet sand (turn off the Vac)? Or do you just hand sand? Tomorrow I'll pick up something to strain with so I can make a little test batch and see.

Maybe gets to learn how to wet sand Dougster :|

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:08 pm
by Spokaloo
I personally just use a bucket of water for the sanding, but I rinsed it off with the hose. You could probably do a good job of cleaning it with three towels (one wet/dirty, one wet/clean, one dry/clean).

Just keep the sanding pad in a wet spot. If you power sand, use a big sponge to transfer water to the work area. Its very obvious when you are wet sanding effectively and when you are dry sanding. Its really just a film of water to work in, but you will see. Ive hand sanded and power sanded, and both work fine. 150 grit dipped in a bucket hand sanding is surprisingly fast on paint and high build primer as well as fairing mix. For graphite work, Id do the sponge/power thing.

Have fun!

E

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:45 pm
by JIM M
I use a spray bottle filled with water in one hand and sanding block in the other, just spray enough water to keep the paper moving easily. after sanding use a bucket and 2 or 3 rags to wash her off.

Jim

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:19 pm
by TomW
Dougster I use a spray bottle in front of the sander also. Just keep it wet. You should have a slurry under the sander. That way you get to take a break when you have to refill the water bottle. :wink: Then rags and bucket(clean rag only in the bucket use lots of rags don't reuse the dirty one) the two rag way, you can use water to get most and then your LT or acetone for the final wipe down to get the really fine stuff.

Tom

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:07 pm
by cape man
Nice trick with the sprayer, and certainly sounds like a cleaner job than dry sanding that graphite. Wished I'd asked more questions when mine was like yours... full of Scobies.

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:32 pm
by Cracker Larry
Wet sanding is the only way to go with graphite :help: Just be very careful of mixing water and electricity 8O 8O Air sanders or hand sanding is safer.

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:22 pm
by ks8
Cracker Larry wrote:Wet sanding is the only way to go with graphite :help: Just be very careful of mixing water and electricity 8O 8O Air sanders or hand sanding is safer.
Especially with bits of graphite suspended in the water... 8O

The spray bottle works well, but a large (large) sponge with a bucket is nice to clean quickly. A hose is awkward until you are done. imho :)

Have fun... and remember... wet sanding can create run off stains in concrete. Think twice about your area, and what it may take to get graphite particles off the floor, particles that run into the deepest mysterious hiding places of the floor, but scream their presence all the same.


Hey Dougster! Didn't know you were that far on the build. This year or next spring? :)

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:43 pm
by Terry E Gustine
What comes after the wet sanding? Will that leave a shiney surface

T

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:11 pm
by Dougster
Lotta help from you guys, and it beats old lonesome for sure. I pondered all day. Took a long walk with the wife. She spied an uncommon pair of ducks for the area. Says they're "Hooded Mergansers", and she'd know. Cheery pair: good lookin' guy and his fine lady...kinda like Shirl and me :) . Well, enough of that. I returned home for a nap, a read of folks' ideas here, and a ponder. Then I took my beloved Linbide scraper http://www.smartmarine.co.nz/scraper-co ... p-870.html and knocked all the dang "scobies" off in an hour and a half. Easy peasy says the Spokeman. Really that's a great scraper guys. Buy the blades, they're two sided and last forever. The handle fits your hand just so. I leave it out and use it all the time, almost like a third hand. Anyhow, that little scraper cleared the scobies so it's all pretty smooth now. Still needs a little sanding of course, to get some tooth for the next coat if nothing else. Jim, Tom, I'm gonna use the sprayer tip on the sides, above the chine, with a sanding block. Keep a sponge handy for the bottom. Mainly now I just need a little tooth for the next coat or two, so I'm feelin' ok. The big issue is how to dodge the scobie thing. I'm planning on this:

1. Reduce the graphite ratio slightly. Not much
2. Stir till I'm sick of it. Use the propeller thing on the drill deal
3. Strain it through a paint bag or cheese cloth.

Says he doesn't want to think about doing this project without this forum Dougster

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:30 pm
by Spokaloo
Thats really interesting Doug. Glad it worked out.

This is the kinda scraper I use, looks to be a different beast:

Image

E

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:04 pm
by gk108
Your scobies are clumps of graphite that form in the bottom of your roller tray. Reducing the amount of graphite in your mix will help that somewhat, but you may still get some. To me, it looks like the action of loading the roller helps create them by packing the graphite at the same time the roller is soaking up resin, thus changing the density in small areas.

Although I haven't used one for graphite, the fuzzy roller seems like it would be a possible remedy for the packing of the graphite, since the little fuzz bristles have a wiping action that should help disperse the graphite again.
Image

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:05 am
by Dougster
Eric, I have used that style of scraper too. Needs sharpening and harder to use well for me. I tend to dig the corners in. Covers more area though. Linbide comes with two sided disposable blades. Not to be compared to the junky ones in the local hardware store. I've used two blades in two years. GK: any chance the fuzzies would come off into the mix? Another thing, I noticed the scobie thing pretty much right away, without much time for loading. Still, it seems like it may have gotten worse with time. Maybe just pour the the mix on the bottom and quickly spread with the roller? Use a brush for the sides where you can't poor?

Ponderin' the thing Dougster

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:12 am
by gk108
Fuzz coming off the roller? Well, yes, if you cut the roller down to a shorter length, some of the fuzz comes off along the cut. Rolling it over some duct tape before you use it will pick up the lint. Or use it as it is without cutting it down.

I wonder if adding just a touch of silica to the mix might help prevent the problem. :doh:

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:13 am
by Cracker Larry
Thats the way I did mine Doug. Stir it and pour and spread a little. Stir it again and pour and spread a little. Keep it stirred as you go. Do that and cut down on your graphite ratio a little, should be good.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:15 am
by Cracker Larry
What comes after the wet sanding? Will that leave a shiney surface
No Terry, that will leave a surface that looks like pencil lead. You'll have to put on another coat to get the shine back.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:47 am
by Lower
Following with much interest Dougster. I'm about a week or so away from doing the graphite myself.

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:40 pm
by Murry
Thanks for all the details Doug.

I'm following your progress also.

Daniel

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:28 am
by JohnC
Hey Doug,
You'll get the graphite figured out and then a little more paint and you'll be ready to flip that thing! :D Bonnie says I need a project (to get me out of her way most likely) so I suggested a Christmas gift card from Home Depot (tools) would be a good start. :lol: STILL waiting on rain!?!
John

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:38 pm
by Dougster
Good to hear from you John. Tools from HD are a fine idea. I made good use of a lazer from there to mark the waterline. Sure wish I would have had it when I built my jig, it would have saved me a good bit of trouble. Don't buy one though, you can borrow mine come jig time. Speaking of graphite, I sanded a bit today. First I dry sanded about an inch along the edge where it meets the primer above the chine. I figured once the tape was on that first inch would be hard to sand without chewing up the tape. It's like folks say, dry sanding graphite is a mess. Next I taped a fresh skirt on her and used Tom's spray bottle tip (thanks for that one!) to good effect. Much, much, better. I had some 180 grit and hand sanded the little chine section that will show. The paper loads up real quick, and I think 120 grit would be best to start with. I'll get some and try. It's quite easy. I figure on 120 grit or so with the RO for the bottom, just to hit it fast. The holidays are tying me up for time, but I'll get there. Here's a pic after a little wet sanding:

Image

Friday I took a trip to Houston to get my trailer. Long day, 4 hours one way, Houston traffic in the middle of it, but I'm glad it's done. Here Nina's some day home:

Image

Image

The bunks are adjustable (you can see that in the second pic). I asked the guy to raise the tail lights and look what I got. The dang things are 8' up 8O Jeez, too high, looks funny to me and they're too high to fit under the boat port I'm thinking of right there in that spot (off the side of the shop). Gotta cut 'em off some day. Anyway, glad to get the trailer home. The thing looks absolutely huge to me, but I guess 22' of Nina needs it.

Still movin' down that slow lane Dougster

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:02 pm
by chicagoross
:doh: Should be perfect for those really steep ramps! :D :D :D

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:55 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
The trailer looks great! Are the trailer lights mounted on PVC pipe or aluminum tubing? You may want to cut them down to about half that height when you're ready. You will find the extra height handy for two things, it helps when backing the trailer without the boat on it (depending on the tow vehicle its not always easy to see just the trailer) and if some IDIOT behind you while towing isn't paying attention they are more likely to see the trailer brake lights 8O . You gotta love Houston traffic 8O 8O , that's why we live in the country.
John

Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:36 pm
by Dougster
Well I just finished the last coat of graphite. I did two things differently and got less "scobies" (graphite bits). First I used the little paint propeller thing you put on your drill to stir paint. Second, I abandoned my little pink HD rollers, which aren't foam and add lint and maybe pickup graphite bits, I dunno. I poured the mix on the hull, spread it with a squeegee, and tipped with a foam brush. The poor light in some areas caused me to miss some runs though, the worst at the bow where they may bother me. Can I just scape, sand, and spot treat an area? Seems like it would blend in ok if I use the same graphite mix ratio. Anyway, that's for later after she's turned I think. I've used my whole pound of graphite and am ready to move on. What I learned:

1) I don't like sanding graphite
2) Stir the whey out of the stuff
3) Pour it on, no roller tray
4) Use foam rollers if you use rollers
5) Have good light or you'll miss runs
6) Making it perfect was beyond me
7) I don't like sanding graphite

Thinking it's about time to flip her Dougster :D

Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:30 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, great trailer, I dont think I ever saw lights quite that high, if those go in the drink you must have a pretty steep ramp.
I am going to start my NIna before this month is over and I should be able to put in about 30 hrs a week on it, bummer is that I heat my shop with wood and it is going down into the 20s and by Jan or Feb it will get below 0.
Daddy

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:07 pm
by ericsil
I will be in and out of town for the rest of the month, but let me know when the flip is scheduled and I will try to make it. (ecsilverberg at att dot net ) I'd like to see the boat and trailer in any case.

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:14 pm
by Lower
Thanks for the tips Dougster. Pretty sure I'm going to put my first coat on tonight or tomorrow. I'm going to follow your advice, and see what happens.

Question...I'm going to put 2-3 coats on as well. I keep reading about the 24 hr thing, so I'm going to try and stay within that window. Was the epoxy/graphite still pretty tacky when you put the second coat on? Just seems like spreading the 2nd and 3rd coat over a sticky/tacky layer might be difficult :doh: . Oh yeah and did you pull the tape between coats?

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:22 pm
by Dougster
Lower:
Was the epoxy/graphite still pretty tacky when you put the second coat on? Just seems like spreading the 2nd and 3rd coat over a sticky/tacky layer might be difficult Doh! . Oh yeah and did you pull the tape between coats?
First time I did it it was tacky, second time was overnight and it was not tacky. It wasn't too bad doing it when tacky. And no I didn't pull the tape. It was on for over 24 hours by the time I pulled it and it came off ok, but it was dicey and I had to go very slow and keep a razor blade handy. I just looked at it today and decided I'm not satisfied: too many runs and some areas I didn't cover with the last coat. I missed them as I ran low on mix and tried to spread it in poor light. Watch the runs and have plenty of light. I'm mostly just gonna give the little band above the chine another coat on one side and try and fix an area on the bow. I'll have to mask it with tape, sand it for some tooth first and hope it blends. Guess it will if I use the same mix ratio. I'd leave it but I can do a little better so I owe to her. Nuisance though.

Eric, stay tuned for the flip, I'd welcome the help. Also your welcome most any friday or weekend to check her out.

Ordering some more graphite as we speak Dougster

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:57 pm
by JohnC
Hey Doug,
Looks like you're getting closer to flip, let me know when you're ready. I am also off on Friday & Saturday (12th & 13th) if you need an extra pair of hands for anything.

The Christmas boat parade has been cancelled for low water, most of the ramps are closed. Hope you're doing a rain dance in Blanco every night.
John

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:55 pm
by Dougster
Hey John, you're right about the rain dance. 30% chance mid week, so do a jig with me. I still gotta fight this dang graphite some more. Stuff just doesn't like me yet. But the flip is coming and I'd sure welcome you to lend a hand. How are you coming on a build site? Oh yeah, and Daddy, you said you'd never seen a trailer with the lights so high as mine and boy, no kidding. I mean I ask the guy to get up above the water but my God, what is that!! Now I gotta cut 'em. They're up on aluminum poles with PVC over 'em. Gotta cut the light wires, pull 'em out of the way, and then cut the poles. Be lot more fun than the darn graphite.

Says dang that graphite Dougster

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:19 am
by cape man
Hey Dougster,

I know we are all in some kind of weird, almost testosterone driven, undeclared competition to see who can do the best in creating a blemish free, yacht-like finish on every square inch of our girls, but at some point we also want to go fishin'. :lol: :lol:

Since the graphite finish is hopefully all below the waterline, who's going to know? Well there is the 100's of people surfing this site, but bet there isn't a single one of them that won't understand if you move on. I could have spent at least another week, or longer, to make the bottom of my boat PERFECT, including ripping off the skeg and starting over (the fillets were not perfect :help: :help: :help: ).

Then it hit me. I am a university scientist who works with aquaculture. I am not a professional epoxy applicator nor a painter. When I looked at it with those eyes, I was dang proud :D :D :D Cover the areas where it may be a bit thin and blend it in as best as possible, then flip that gorgeous girl over. All the blood is running to her head in that position.

Just my $0.02.

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:58 am
by Dougster
All the blood is running to her head in that position.
:lol: Well, mainly I'm looking at the little 4" strip above the chine, which is a bit above the water line, but you're right about being careful not to get too carried away. And Nina is gettin' a little tired of all the bottom rubbing foreplay and is making signs she's ready to move on!

Says you gotta listen to your girl Dougster

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:56 pm
by Spokaloo
Yup, someone might see it.

Conversely, who gives a damn?

Remember that you are going to bump that exact spot of epoxy into a floating log or a dock or another boat tied up at some point, so when you scuff all that hard work to get the mirror finish, are you going to be less upset because it WAS perfect, or content in knowing that at some point you set the sander and scraper down and it didn't ruin an extra two weeks worth of work when you scuffed her up......

E

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:04 pm
by gk108
Yep! That's where my D15 took it's first hit. Limestone vs. boat. Boat won. :lol:

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:54 pm
by chicagoross
I'm looking at the little 4" strip above the chine
You mean where the boot stripe will go? :D

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:41 pm
by Dougster
Nina wants nice undies even if the gentlemen can't see them :lol: On a more practical vein, it has occurred to me that the lead pencil grey look after sanding may be more practical for just the reason Spoker makes. I mean every time you bump something hard you'll get that look there anyway. Seems like I saw a post where someone buffed it for just that grey look. Anyone else see that?

Says if Nina wants it I guess she can have it Dougster

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:57 pm
by Cracker Larry
That's right 8)

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:14 pm
by cape man
Nina is gettin' a little tired of all the bottom rubbing foreplay and is making signs she's ready to move on!
..and then just moments later...
Nina wants nice undies even if the gentlemen can't see them
She's definitely female! :lol: :lol:

Something tells me she's getting some more rubbing 8) 8)

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:19 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Dougster wrote: Seems like I saw a post where someone buffed it for just that grey look. Anyone else see that?


Doug, I had every manner of zits, scobbies, freckles, craters and what have you in my graphite :? I was too embarassed to ask why or get help.
This was a post from a year ago....
Thanks Huck, Derrick and Ken. That is 3 coats of graphite buffed down a bit. Couldn't stand the shine. Derrick the high build primer is great stuff but it really would take a crap load to fill in a low spot. Ken is right it does work very well on pits and small imperfections. I have found in the cooler weather if you let it sit covered in the cup for about an hour it goes on better with very few runs. It was hot until a week ago and now that I have started painting its cool and raining go figure...Richard
They were commenting on the fact my graphite bottom paint had no shine. I put on 3 or 4 coats and I did not like the results. I went the sanded matt route. Call me lazy, I don't care. The result I was looking for in the graphite was impact resistance. With 2 layers of 1708 and three layers of graphite the boat is almost oyster proof.

I think Nina is looking very sweet......

Richard

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:46 pm
by Spokaloo
In certain instances, the shine is a good thing, in others, the matte would be great.

I have to be shiny here because shes moored 7 months of the year. Matte is a little easier for critters to get a hold on and for algae/bacteria/aquatic pests to attach and make their presence known.

If trailered, matte is great.

E

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:51 pm
by Lower
Thanks for paving the way Dougster. I'm right behind you. DWL is taped off and everything is layed out for tomorrow afternoon. Going to give this a whirl. Had all the intentions of doing it Sun/Mon but our temps were just to cold (13 degrees last night 8O ). Warming up tomorrow and Wed.

One last question did you mix up enough epoxy to do the whole bottom in one shot? Or did you mix a couple batches. One shot seems most logical, but two batches might give a little more working time :doh: . Figured I might as well ask...doesn't hurt...

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:09 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Spokaloo wrote:In certain instances, the shine is a good thing, in others, the matte would be great.
If trailered, matte is great.

E
I agree. Either way the graphite is better than plain paint...

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:21 pm
by Dougster
Lower: I used two batches, one for each side of the hull. My batches were not quite big enough, forcing me to try and stretch it toward the end (bow for me). That caused it to be uneven in spots. Have plenty. I used a 2:1:1: mix. For Nina, at 22' I used 8oz:4oz resin : 4oz volume grapite. That ended up a little over 1.6 oz by weight of graphite for me. If I were doing it again I'd start with 10oz of resin. Stir it darn good, the little drill bit paint prop did well for me. Pour it on, spread with squeegee. It needed rolling to be sure it was smooth and not too thick (or will run), but my pink HD rollers seemed to cause little scobies. Tip with foam brush. I think a foam roller would be better after the squeegee, then tip. Don't be afraid of it, it's not a huge deal to sand it down and put another coat on. Hey Aripeka, you make me feel better, as in not being the only one to end up with perfect, smooth, shiney, black graphite. I could always sand it down to matte later if I wanted I guess. That makes sense the way you explained it Eric. If she's in the water long, you don't want tooth in the finish for crawly stuff to grab on. Right now I'm kinda thinkin' about a 4' metal shoe on the nose, from the beginning of the keel up to the water line. That graphite sure rubs off easily right there with sandpaper, so I guess oyster bed or just sand would be no different when I beach her.

Kinda thinkin' about that matte finish thing Dougster

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:47 pm
by gk108
Dougster wrote:That graphite sure rubs off easily right there with sandpaper, so I guess oyster bed or just sand would be no different when I beach her
From what I can tell, sanding removes it a lot faster than beaching. 8)

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:07 pm
by Spokaloo
I think Id use one of those skeg guard deals commercially available. Something about putting metal over the bow makes me uncomfortable.

E

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:38 pm
by ks8
Thinking we need another picture from the Dougster real soon... 8)

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:06 pm
by JohnC
Hey Doug,
I don't know if you did a little jig, or foxtrot or two-step (maybe even a little Dicso Duck, I thought I saw a mirror disco ball next to your lava lamp :lol: ) but its raining over here right now! Keep it up! Still working on a building location, I'm going to look at a couple on Friday. One has a 10' high door the other is only 8' (hate to build the HMD and have it forever drydocked in the garage :roll: !), so probably the 10' will be the favorite. If you're making an HD-Bulverde run anytime let me know, maybe we can grab a coffee.
John

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:39 pm
by chicagoross
John, I built the HMD in a carport with 7' door; rolled the cradle out (on 1 1/2" pipes) with about 3-4" to spare. Sorry for the hi-jack, Dougster!

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:44 pm
by Dougster
No hijack at all Chicago, I'm glad to know an HMD gets out a 7' door. Hey Eric:
I think Id use one of those skeg guard deals commercially available.
When I google skeg guard I get guards for outboard motor skegs. I'm talking about the bow, in front of the wooden skeg for about 4' . We talking about the same thing?

John: lemme know when you nail a build site down.


Pondering for the weekend Dougster

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:47 pm
by D2Maine
nm

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:58 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Hey Aripeka, you make me feel better, as in not being the only one to end up with perfect, smooth, shiney, black graphite. I could always sand it down to matte later if I wanted I guess. That makes sense the way you explained it Eric. If she's in the water long, you don't want tooth in the finish for crawly stuff to grab on.
Dougster, I put on the graphite epoxy coat because the graphite is supposed to make the epoxy harder. I did it strictly for gouge resistance as I have alot of rocks and oysters in my area. I have no idea of the marine growth in Texas or the PNW, but here where I am located the crud starts to grow on a unprotected hull almost immediately. It doesn't matter if it is shiny or not. I am not talking about slime, but real nasty shellfish. I am sure that the epoxy has no or provides any protection against these critters. I am sure it is easier to remove slime from a slick hull though. My boat is launched for a day or two and retrieved so marine growth was not an issue for me. I do know that a boat that stays in the water for a while is better off with the graphite up to the waterline. Better than soaking the Sterling. Hope you have a positive end to the graphite bottom paint :)

Richard

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:47 pm
by TomW
Dougster from everything I know graphite really isn't a coating for a boat that is going to be kept in the water. Only a good bottom paint with copper and other additives can keep the scuzzies from grabbing hold eventually. Lid Richard says a couple-3 days is probably about it. It will make scraping easier though. :( And the graphite provides a harder bottom than the plain paint.

Tom

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:07 pm
by Lower
Might want to rename your thread Dougster..."Dougster's graphite page"...soon enough it will be over, for you anyway! Me on the other hand :( . Thanks for the tips, they really help. My orginal plan was to do 3 coats in 24 hrs...then the scobies showed up :!: . Did about 2/3rds the boat and it looked ok, then scobies big time. I'll ask general questions in my own thread so I don't take over yours but I was curious about scraping scobies. Due to temps around here it's still a bit tacky. I took my scraper (not as cool as yours) and hit a few scobies. They scraped out of the epoxy. Basically I can see the hull. Now I have little divits (looks like the boat has chicken pox). Is this what happens? Or should I have waited until it was totally cured? Maybe they would have then scraped clean with the surface? Hopefully the next layer will fill in the divits??? Sorry to bother you again, I just know you've been there done that. Thanks.

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:13 pm
by Dougster
Tom---She'll live on a trailer. If I change that, it'll be time for bottom paint.

Lower---sorry to hear about the scobies. A few of the bigger ones did that pull out thing for me, otherwise a good sharp scraper can cut 'em off. Don't worry, your next coat will fill in the pull outs. Hit with the sander: use Tom's suggestion of a spray bottle with water. Sand a couple feet, wipe up with paper towels. Goes fast. Then maybe hand sand a little to make sure no shiney is left to inhibit stick for the next coat. Then try again. Did you sift the graphite? Stir the whey out of it? (it's full of whey :) ) Cuss it good? Hold your mouth right? Well...back on task, did you try a foam roller? I haven't tried that yet. My best was with just a squeegee. I'm waiting for some more graphite from Bateau for now, so, not much happening. I doubt it will spot treat well, but I masked off a little area and sanded to try a little 2 oz resin batch when I get the graphite. Will only take a half hour or so.

Thanks for the link D2, that's surely what E was referring too. Pretty easy and simple, but I'm not sure I like the more than a skinny piece of stainless. Easier though, and no problem to add after the fact if it does become a problem. I'm leaning toward that watch, wait, and see option. You could also scuff it up and recoat it with graphite every couple years too I guess, if necessary.

Just thinkin' out loud Dougster

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:19 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug I regularly beach my boat. What I get the most of is paint being worn off the boat from the sand, with the occasional shallow gouge from a stick.

I am going to go the keelguard route (thanks D2, 48 hr shifts make me somewhat unintelligent) because I don't like running fastenings into the hull in that area, and a stainless guard will be MUCH less likely to be peeled back in the event of a mildly hard beaching to see if its bunged up. The stainless will be tougher, guaranteed, but it isn't the strength the boat needs, just the abrasion protection.

Obviously you will do whatever you like (she would have a little early chriscraft feel with it), but my plan is a keelguard.

E

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:48 am
by Dougster
Hey Eric, I remember two day shifts in the Missile silos. It was long days ago when I was doin' my hitch in the Air Force. Wouldn't want to go back there. Your mention of the screws needed for stainless there in the bow has been one of my ponderments (I know, Webster says it's not a word, but I like it). Very nice to avoid that with those keelguards, and they are wider. Easy to install anytime too. You got me leaning.

Walkin' down the good road Dougster

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:17 am
by topwater
Doug i have one of those keelguards on my bass boat
i ran aground on a rocky sandbar in a river. Iwas in ankle
deep water by the time the boat stopped "the bow that is"
got out pushed the bow off. long story short had some pretty
good gouge's in the keelguard not a mark in the gelcoat.

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:38 am
by Spokaloo
I can guarantee you will see one on my boat next spring.

We beach literally 5+ days a week on extremely steep, sometimes rocky beaches (rocks are buried in the sand). That keelguard will repel everything that we deal with here, and will give remarkable protection against things like your dreaded shellfish beds.

E

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:38 pm
by TomW
Dougster here is the keel guard it comes in 6-8' lengths. Don't believe this is the cheapest place to find it but knew they had it. I believe it also comes in different colors.

Tom

Good to protect boats from oysters!

Movin' On

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:28 pm
by Dougster
Happy day for me: I'm done with the graphite. This was my third effort. For the second time I scaped and sanded the whole bottom, then yesterday applied another coat. That makes 5 coats, minus one or two sanded off. This last coat is my best to date. I had a quiet talk with Nina and the consensus is "good 'nuff". Many of you can, of course, imagine my joy. There are few and only minor runs. There are scobies, but not as many as before and not as pronounced. How anyone can avoid them I do not know, but after three runs at it, I'm satisfied and moving on. Here's what I did on the last coat:

1. Used a 2:1:1 ratio, i.e. equal parts graphite to hardener (I went a little lighter than that acually). Maybe less graphite would yield fewer scobies?

2. Mixed the epoxy first for 90", then mixed the graphite by hand for 30" and then 30" more with a paint mixer attached to my corded drill. Maybe longer would be better? For sure the paint mixer deal helped.

3. Poured the mix on the hull. A tray allowed the graphite particles to settle too much.

4. Spread quickly with a squeegee. I tried to use just a squeegee for one coat but had runs.

5. Rolled with foam roller and tipped with disposable foam brush.

6. Stayed with it, checking each half hour for an hour and a half to spread runs with the foam brush as they developed.

This gave me decent results, but still plenty of "scobies", but she'll do. Here's pics:

Image

I put two coats from a little left over on a section of the motor well cut out. I left them rough, with runs and bugs. I thought maybe I could experiment with this, like maybe run some increasingly fine grit paper over it up toward a buff and see what kind of finish that would get. It would be nice to have a way to fix a rough job, but I don't think could get it to that black shiny look when it sets up. But maybe a nice battle ship gray that could be touched up in spots after various dings and mishaps over time. If I never get to that, then at least this summer I'll set it out exposed in the Texas sun and see how it fares. Here's the sample:

Image

I took today off and just put things away and organized the shop a bit. Next step is put her roll cage back on and schedule a flip party :D

Glad to be movin' on Dougster

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:38 pm
by Spokaloo
Id come help flip, but Im snowbound at work.

Looks good, glad you got off your dusty arse and moved on!

E

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:53 pm
by gk108
That's a fine looking bottom. I'd let Mother Nature finish the polishing job. :D

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:08 pm
by Daddy
Great work Dougster, it is cold up here in Vermont and I am so jealous of the working temps you have (5 degrees here this AM). I will start my Tumblehome Nina right after Christmas and hope to have it in the water a year from Spring, really gonna take my time.
Keep up the good work, your gonna catch up to MullettChoker if your not careful. His gallery is a great tutorial for Nina.
Daddy

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:13 pm
by BassMunn
It looks nice Dougster, I'm about to attempt this graphite thing and am also wondering about my possible success or failure with it. :doh:

Just a thought and I maybe way off here, if you did a light sanding and then did a thin coat of pure epoxy resin over it, would that not bring back the shine? I suppose the resin wouldn't have a rough enough surface to grip to. :doh:
I'm not refering to your boat, yours looks good, I'm just thinking out load for my attempts.

Shannon

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:54 pm
by Dougster
glad you got off your dusty arse and moved on!

More like a pasty, grimy, wet arse, 'cuz I mostly wet sanded :) Maybe it was fun, but like GK says, I'm gonna let Mother Nature carry on with the rest. I think even slow train Dougster's spent enough time on this graphite bottom thing. Hey Daddy, you say a year from spring is taking your time? Jeez, I'm that far along now just to get this far :oops: Guess I'm really takin' my time.

Shannon--I thought often about putting a coat of epoxy over it, and I'm pretty sure that'd shine it up. I'm afraid, though, that cover coat, with no graphite and therefore no UV resistance at all would quickly go cloudy. Good luck on your first effort and let us know how it goes.

Put his sander on the shelf for now Dougster

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:32 pm
by Vman777
Dougster - starting to get there! looks good.
Not sure if you are still thinking about the pop top idea, if you are let me know. I haven't worked on it lately.

Also have you seen the new Yamah 40, looks like a lower cowl. I need to call them to see if I can get some LxWxH measurements, since there is no manual on it yet. Looks like it might be a little lower then earlier models.

Go here and click on the F40 hot sheet http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/whats_new.aspx

David

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:57 am
by Dougster
Thanks for the link Vman, I read through it and it does look like a lower profile. 219 lbs estimated. Seems like the new ETECH 30 was 187 but I can't remember. ETECH is still new tech compared to Yammie I guess, but less new each year. Anyway, this summer I intend to visit some dealers for a hands on/tape measure look see. I'm not leaning toward the Pop Top these days, but would very much like a hard top. Mulletchoker's doing that with foam, and if the weight is low enough, I'll piggy back off him and his nice gallery/thread. But...catch up with him...me? Well...I'm happy having you out front Mullet, between your thread and Spoke's I get a lotta help.

Movin' up from the shoulder to the slow lane Dougster

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:28 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Glad to see you're getting close to flipping, let me know if you need a hand with anything to get ready. Actually saw 2 boats going to the lake yesterday (38 degrees and 15-20 kt winds) I don't like fishing that much, I'll be the one sitting in the leather recliner next to the fireplace. :lol: Speaking of getting off my backside, I still haven't nailed down a building site. I did talk to a friend of mine who has a small shop (about the size of a 4 car garage), he said I might be able to use one end of it for the build.
Let you know if I get that figured out.
Happy Holidays,
John

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:06 am
by Lower
Well done Dougster. Look forward to the flip. I'm going to do some sanding this week and try the graphite again myself.

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:39 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Haven't heard from you for awhile, are you getting ready to flip?

Good news on this end (I think), I may be able to build right here at home. In looking around the subdivision I discovered some variations (that's a good word to protect the guilty) in structures that I thought were not allowed by the HOA. Specifically, CARPORTS! (err, make that boatports). I think I have room to build one about 10'Wx20'Lx8'H (inside dimensions). I would like to have more than 8'H (not an HOA thing, I have powerlines that come into that corner of the garage) so I'll have to measure that closely. It certainly would make the build go a lot easier.

Let me know what you're up to.

John

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:27 pm
by Dougster
Good timing John. I'm thinking maybe next weekend for the flip party and thought of you already. Maybe Saturday, a week tomorrow? Lemme know. Re the "boat port", that's very good news. Oddly enough, I'm wanting to build one on the side of my shop to park Nina when she's done. I dunno how to do it, but once you get to building a boat, well, you lose your fear. If you want a hand on building yours, count me in, it'd be fun and a good chance to learn. I'm figuring on putting mine in this summer.

Says stay tuned Dougster

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:21 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Saturday the 17th is OK with me, let me know what time. If you need any help before that to get ready I can help you with that too.

John

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:07 pm
by ericsil
I should be able to make a showing for the flip also.

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:38 pm
by Dougster
Hey, that's great, both of you. Let's make it noon. I'll put a pork butt in the smoker and provide lunch :) I bought some more 2 by 4's today to shore her cradle up a little more, but she's almost ready. I'll get plenty of guys so it'll be no sweat. Pics of her ready to go and in the cradle will be posted tomorrow. I sure appreciate the help guys, and I'll have Nina ready.

Say's she'll be rockin' in the cradle and ready to roll Dougster

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:05 pm
by ericsil
All I need is a time and an address.

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:15 pm
by Dougster
Eric---send me an email and I'll forward the address. My email address is dwinzeroeight and I'm at gmaildot com. Use numerals for the "zeroeight". Same for you John.

Gettin' organized Dougster

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:45 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
See you Saturday at noon. Hope Nina doesn't get dizzy after she's flipped.
John

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:45 am
by Daddy
Wish I could be there to help, Texas is a bit out of the way from Vermont... BTW 12 degrees below 0 this morning
Best of luck with the flip, I assembled my frames on the strongback all except for the bow mold and frame A, having trouble getting it just right as it is out there in space all by itself compared to the others which are linked by the stringers.
Daddy[/i]

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:31 pm
by Dougster
Sure would welcome you Daddy; the more guys the easier the job. I didn't get my frames just right and had to fight it right through the build. I'd use a lazer next time to be sure everything is just so.

Good to year you're coming John, hope Eric makes it too. I'm still diggin' up guys, got 6 for now. Shooting for 10, but we'll see. I bought a 10 lb. pork butt for the smoker today so we're ok there 8) Here's Nina as of 10 minutes ago, zipped up in her rolling cradle. All I gotta do is jack her up, pull out the jig supports and jig and she's ready to roll.

Image

Gearing up for the flip Dougster

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:21 pm
by ericsil
I'll be there as well. Found your place on the map in what I would call the "outskirts" of Dripping for sure.

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:14 pm
by Dougster
More like the outskirts of Blanco. I sure appreciate you making the trek Eric. I get a little nervous come roll time and can use the support. Hope my pork measures up. It's a risk for a Texan to do pork instead of brisket. Maybe Cracker Larry will give me some tips. I'm figuring a dry rub, then 12 to 18 hrs at 250 degrees, shooting for around 185 internal temp. Vinegar sauce, maybe a mustard too. Beverages in the cooler. Sure hope Nina behaves.

Says Texans ain't a skeered of a pork butt Dougster

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:06 pm
by Cracker Larry
If you can build a Nina, you can cook a pork butt :lol: Good luck with the flip. Help is a good thing 8)

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:58 am
by Spokaloo
Doug, if you need any help, my current partner at work is a professional pig roaster (no kidding, 3 custom built roasters, one capable of whole hogs on the hoof...) and has some ideas on the perfect pig.

Wish I could come flip.

E

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:21 am
by chicagoross
Good Luck, Doug! Bet you can't wait to start work on the topsides - the change of view is nice after you've been staring at the bottom for so long! :D Wis I could joing you!

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:32 am
by TomW
Dougster don't know if your doing a whole shoulder 10-15lbs or the smaller butts 5-7lbs. Either way figure on about 1 1/2 hrs per pound this has worked great for me for years and is the basic guide for pork shoulder or butts.

Love my pork!

Tom

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:32 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Did you put the beverages in the cooler to keep them warm, I've had frost here the past couple of nights. I'll defer to TomW on the pork roast, after all I believe in North Carolina they call that a "pig pickin'" :D . See you Saturday.
John

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:15 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I worked today on getting my panels to conform to the jig, not easy, fighting me all the way, some serious twist and torture to that bow ply. I am using okume so it is supposed to be easy. Wish I was up to the stage you are at (at which you are??) Never could figure that one out and I used to teach English. :doh:
Daddy

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:34 pm
by Cracker Larry
I am using okume so it is supposed to be easy.


:lol: Just easier. I haven't heard anyone actually say it was easy.
stage you are at (at which you are??)
I always did poorly in English, but think I remember it's a foul to end a sentence with a preposition. Behind the at is what I've been told :lol:

Good luck with the flip :!:

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:54 pm
by tobolamr
JohnC wrote:I've had frost here the past couple of nights.
Our high today was -11F. Our low for tonight is -25, with a -55 windchill.

Exploding beverages, anyone? :lol:

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:17 pm
by Spokaloo
time to poke some holes in the lake and pull some perch and bluegill out!

E

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:18 pm
by Fred in Wisc
Way too cold for that. When it's below zero, you gotta remember not to put the fish right on the ice or you need to chip them back up with a shovel.

-15 on the way to work this morning. Without the wind chill. Global warming, my behind.

Fred in Wisc

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:25 pm
by Cracker Larry
Fred, it's +20 here right now, and if I get fresh fish it's going to be delivered. The woodpile is as far as I'm going.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:36 pm
by Daddy
Just couldn't resist... minus 26 here this AM and I have to go to the woodpile too :D
Daddy

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:57 pm
by Dougster
46 degrees here and I'm whacked. Cavalry's coming tomorrow for the flip. I jacked Nina up and crawled underneath her to to get the jig supports out. It was a tough hour of screws and bolts with me tangled up in her innards down there hopin' nothing shifted 8O Well, nothing did so I got it done. Then I pulled out the jig and set it beside her. Here's the jack deal.
Image

Here she is with the jig beside her. We're gonna flip her and set her on top of it.

Image

The last deal was the pork butt. It's in the smoker now for the night.

Image

Nina's ready and so am I. We'll walk her outside, flip her, and take her back in. Thank all you guys for the support and good cheer. Thanks especially for the cavalry that's a comin' !

'Bout whacked out Dougster

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:51 pm
by WobblyLegs
Good luck flipping her Dougster! And that pork picture is making me hungry!

Tim.

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:33 am
by TomW
Nice looking shoulder Doug your making me hunnnnnnngry. Good luck on the flip tomorrow.

Tom

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:53 am
by Spokaloo
Im excited to see the photos...

E

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:18 pm
by Murry
How did it go Dougster? Better yet, how was that pork?

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:13 pm
by ks8
Enjoy the flip party. :D

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:55 am
by Spokaloo
Dang, musta been a good party....

E

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:20 am
by cape man
Pictures Dougster, pictures! How's she look? And how was the pork?

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:40 am
by Dougster
Nina's right side up :D . 11 guys said they'd come and 11 showed up. We picked her up, carried her outside, and flipped her. Then we moved the jig back in place, carried her back in, and set her on the jig. She's there right now waiting for bracing to the jig so the cradle can be removed. My wife took pics, but when we headed for the pork and beer she said "guy thing" and retreated up to the house, so no pics of the pig pull (a beautiful thing). No troubles at all with the flip. It's time consuming to build a cradle, but boy it makes the flip safe and easy. But then every picture tells a story don't it?

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

I gotta thank all the guys for taking time on a Saturday to help me out. Not only did they make it possible, they made it easy and fun. Mr. Pig sure did his thing, it tore to pieces with a couple of forks, and out of 10 something pounds there's enough left to feed Shirley and I tonight. As for Nina, she's humming a happy tune, right side up, ready for her sole. Like other guys have said at this point, it's a joy to move on from the bottom, the fairing, primer, and graphite. What a high. If any wanna be first time builders are reading this thread, I will promise you, if I can do this, you can.

Enjoying the ride Dougster

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:43 am
by Spokaloo
Hmmm.....

Asking a man that requires a cane to walk to help you turn the boat over?

Doug..... Geez......

Looks great!

E

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:55 am
by WobblyLegs
Spokaloo wrote:Asking a man that requires a cane to walk to help you turn the boat over?
Yup, I saw that too!

Well done Dougster and friends; have fun with the sole (and all the trimmings that go with it)!

Tim.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:04 pm
by StngStr
Geritol convention? ;)

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:15 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, who is the geezer with the white hair and beard? Looks just like me! :D Great to have her right side up!
Daddy
PS stitched together nina's bow (bottom panels) yesterday with the help of my son, easy with that extra pair of hands, what a relief, I think that is the only place that really tortures the ply

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:18 pm
by Murry
Looks good Dougster. Good Luck with the rest.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:10 pm
by Dougster
Cane? He was the enforcer, instructed to beat shirkers about the head and shoulders and deal with deserters similarly. And that touch of gray, well, we weren't serving milk and cookies with the pig. Big boys, all of us. Daddy, what you said about the bow being the tough part was sure 'nuff so for me. It added to my gray 'till Jacques told me to cut slits in it. You and Eric both made it go without that, but I used meranti.

Runs with the big boys Dougster

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:28 pm
by Daddy
Every job needs an enforcer

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:53 pm
by JohnC
The enforcer was there to make sure we all had ALL our fingers and toes when we were done. 8O Do they still make Geritol? At least we are all AARP qualified! :D
John

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:10 pm
by cape man
Looks great and like it was a fine community event. As to the geezer comments, nice to see a bunch of grey still making things happen. Not a lot of young punks can tackle life as well.

Enjoy working on her guts.

Geritol was replaced by Viagra!

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:23 pm
by Dog Fish
Good job men. That was really nice of all you guys to go help out with the flip. Way da go. That's what is so good about this site. bringing people together with the same interest and helping each other out. Your build is looking good Dougster. 8)

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:13 am
by Cracker Larry
Excellent Dougster 8)

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:09 am
by Lower
Nicely done Dougster! Congrats! Sure love the looks of that hull.

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:50 am
by MulletChoker
Great job, sure is a pretty hull.
Now the real head-scratching begins as you figure out what you want to go where on the interior. Still lots of fun though.

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:41 pm
by TomW
Verrrrrrry nice Dougster. Us old guys arn't done yet. Best of luck with the pondering and the rest of the build.

Tom

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:49 am
by davidtx
The boat flip was a piece of cake, the smoked pork and beer was most excellent. We had four forum members present - Dougster, Ericsil, JohnC and me. Well, five if you count Fred. I think we missed a photo op there...

-david

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:17 am
by colonialc19
Congrats, Primo job!

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:39 am
by Dougster
Took a while, but she's supported with bunks on the jig. I wanted it pretty solid 'cuz I guess I'll be climbing in and out a few gillion times. I used a jack to lift her a hair, crawled under and build bunks up firm against the hull, using another jack to make sure they were firm. Then dropped back that hair and pulled off the cradle. Maybe 200 drywall screws 8O Good grief I musta gone overboard. Anyway, she's sittin' level and ready. Next comes the cockpit cleats, foam, and sole. Here's a few pics. Wish I could get a better one of her nice rear end.

Image

Image

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Hopin' she's upright for good Dougster

:)

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:01 am
by WobblyLegs
Dougster wrote:...I guess I'll be climbing in and out a few gillion times...
That you will! Though I don't know where? With mine, the motorwell was my doorway into the boat, but on Nina you have to climb over the whole height! I'm sure you'll figure something out - especially when you climb in there, then realise you left the screws (or something) outside, get them, climb in again, and out again for the screwdriver, then in again, then, well, you get the picture! ;)

Looking good, she is!!

Tim.

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:00 pm
by Daddy
Go Dougster!
Daddy

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:37 pm
by chicagoross
Way to go, Dougster! I know you've been sitting there in that chair enjoying a beer and admiring her lines...now time to get back to work! :D You're right about the climbing - at the least you want to go buy a 4 step aluminum ladder, or use a few hundred more drywall screws and your jig leftovers to build a grand staircase. I had more than a few times (like Tim said) where I got myself in the boat, all settled in to do the next step, and then realized I left something critical on the other side... :D Have fun! - the next part is more fun than fairing!

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:59 am
by Dougster
I got the ladder Chicago. Used it taping, glassing, and puttin' in frames and stringers, and learned something. The easiest access is to put the ladder along side around midship, where you climb up, step over, and Bob's your Uncle. Same way out; Bob again. Then one day, tired, rushed, what have you, you step out and the ladder tips sideways, away from the boat. In my case, Bob stayed related and, after a spread eagle moment with one foot aboard and the other on the ladder, I recovered. It concentrates the mind, that moment, and after that I kept the ladder strapped to the hull.

While I'm posting, I want to bring up a question I've been pondering. I of course want the sole to drain aft. She's level now, at least the stringer tops are, where the sole sits. Can I hope she'll sit squat enough to drain aft? Spokaloo has a 50 horse and no cabin, but I'm planning on 30 horses with a cabin. It is a ponder, but I know it's easy to get weight in the stern (batteries, baitwell). Still, she needs to shed rain at anchor. What do you guys think, especially Eric, Daddy, and Mullet?

Doesn't necessarily want his mind concentrated Dougster

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:17 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, my slope aft is substantial. No mistaking where the water is going to run, because my trim is probably a full degree or two past designed. With your boat, as long as you keep your cabin weight mellow, batts and junk in the aft compartments, and keep the motor cover on it (remember I don't have a motor cover, and you can easily make yours a little hefty), you will have a different trim than I do.

If she doesn't drain? Switch to a dual battery system. Carry your anchors aft. Build an aft bench against the bulkhead and store EVERYTHING in it. You can readily change your trim with a few items. The only time we have anything remotely bow-down is when I have 3 in the forward seating area and just myself aft. At the dock? Never.

E

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:34 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, seems like Eric covered it. My build will be similar to yours. I am thinking I will wait til it is in the water before I decide where all the movable items will go. I plan to follow Harry Bryans plans for the motor well so will have a bit more bouyancy aft so I will have to wait and see. I have not done much recently, just a lot of pondering. Where do you plan to put your scuppers? I was thinking of through the transome right in the center. I am actually thinking of raising the port and stbd edge of the sole by about 3/4 inch and having it all slope to the center so that there is a very very slight V which should not be noticeable but should help channel the water to the center. Should not be too hard to do as all of my center frames are throwaways and I can make the permanent ones with that slight V. I also plan to add another athwarship frame or maybe even two in the cockpit area.
Daddy

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:49 pm
by Spokaloo
D, lets look at a function of boat handling and workload.

Lets say you are out on a nice summer afternoon, good sized bay or lake, and the afternoon breeze is about 5-10mph. The chop is maybe a foot or so tall, not bad, very pleasant. Everyone wants to swim because its so unbearably hot out, so we all hop in for a dip and climb back over the rail to relax in the cockpit. The boat gently sways a little with each wave, but because 3 of us are on one side with the cooler and batteries, and 2 are on the other side, shes listing imperceptibly. Thusly, she just doesn't feel like draining and the water sits in the corner of the boat.

Now let's put ourselves in the construction phase. Its been 5 months of building so far, and we are finally getting the sole ready to go in. Which option is going to make for less work:

1) I need to project the cleat height over to the sides, glue up the cleats at or near the projected line, then using sticks, estimate where the sole height will be in a gentle V shape, adding material to each floor frame and to the two stringers to accommodate the shape. I then very carefully glue up the sole, trying not to leave a trough in the middle, bringing my sheets snug against each other.

2) I just lay the cleats level with the sole. I drop the sole in the next day in a single 8 hr shift. Now that the sole is in, I bore two holes in the transom or the sides of the boat, taking 15 minutes.

I think I know what I'd do, but Im lazy.

I have a single drain to a sump. Its not particularly effective when loaded with people.

E

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:23 pm
by chicagoross
I adjust the trim with 1 gallon water jugs, which can be stashed in about any compartment in the boat. Figure they're a good thing to have in salt water anyhow. About 4 or 6 of those all the way forward or all the way aft into the transom compartments make a difference. Then there's the big anchor that you never use unless you really have to...and you can always pack extra beer and ice for real emergencies! :D Got to make that ballast useful!

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:45 pm
by Dougster
You guys got it covered. I'll tweak it when she spashes. I'd forgotten about the motorwell cover :oops: I'd like simple, big scuppers, one on each side aft, but figure I'll wait 'till splash to see if the water line is below the sole enough. Barring that, scuppers on either corner out the transom with bilge pump. Both if marginal, with stops for the side scuppers if conditions warrent? BTW, Harry Bryan?

Cut some some cleats with bevels to fit the sides today Dougster

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:57 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, harry Bryan, boatbuilder, Letete New Brunswick, way up there in Canada eh? He took William Hands concept and designed his own version of the Handy Billy. You will see a resemblance to Nina. Here is a link to that design
http://www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/plan8.html
Harry also sells plans but I fear that there is no risk of competition here as they are all plank on frame and to be able to build one you need some real boat building skills that I do not possess nor do I have the patience. On top of that I believe that our Bateau stitch and glue, well sheathed in glass is a far better boat with much less demand for maintenance that a true wooden boat calls for.. I got a set of the plans simply for reference because I did not like the big honking hole that Nina has in her tranny and I knew that Harry's design did not have that feature, has a much smaller opening designed around the 25 or 30 hp 4 stroke. Attention must be paid to assuring proper ventilation of the compartment but there are
allowances for that.
There is a picture of Maynard Bray in his Bryan Billy on one of the older posts in my blog.
Daddy
I wouldn't try to build this one either :P
http://www.pbase.com/paulthedane/noahs_ark

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:31 am
by MulletChoker
We petty much went with Erics' method: glued the sole in flat, quick (relatively) and dirty (not really). We have 2 scuppers that drain the cockpit into a sump located right in front of the transom. Like the rest of you, found it difficult to cut overboard scuppers with out seeing the boat in the water. With a moderate chop on the beam don't see how you would avoid regurgitation without flapper valves etc. Trying to keep most of the weight (fuel, battery etc) in the middle of the boat, according to Jacques, it will trim fine just like that.
Glued the fordeck down yesterday. After the deck went on we realized a forward hatch would be too difficult for creaky old backs to navigate.Currently formulating an idea for a combination hard and soft top; basically a 24-30 inch wide opening in the cabin top with a canvas cover. With the cover off you could walk forward to the front of the cabin to tend the anchor/dock lines. Still very much in the pondering stage.

Dougster: Once you get the sole taped in you won't need much hull support, she gets very stiff.. we weighed the hull last week, lifted the boat from the bow eye.. no creaks , no groans, not a bit of flex. This is a strong boat!

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:58 pm
by Daddy
I have a 2 x 6 scupper with a hard flap that I plan to put centered on the true transom (the one with the motor). In front of that I will put two 500 gph bilge pumps. One with a float and hard wired directly to the battery (thanks Larry) the other on a switch. I still might not cut the hole til I see her in the water although we gotta trust the plans, right? :)
Daddy

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:16 pm
by Daddy
MC were you thinking of something like this?
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/campjon/index.htm
Of course in a much more refined state. Would make it a lot easier to go forward, and just imagine how much easier it would be to use your 5 gallon bucket. :lol:
Daddy

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:39 pm
by MulletChoker
That's right, thought we'd probably leave the forward (athwartship) panel in the cabin superstructure with a small window, that should keep the cabin pretty stable. Also hope it looks a little prettier than the 'Campjon'

Not only would it be easier to utilize the bucket, the view will be great.

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:24 pm
by Daddy
You could wave and smile as you cruise on by.....
Yes, I am sure it would be prettier than the campjon and I am almost sorry that you mentioned it because now I am thinking about it too. One other option I thought about was the kind of hatch that was on an early Boston Whaler that had a cuddy. That hatch was made up of the front of the trunk cabin and an equal part of the cabin roof, all one piece. Gave excellent access to the front deck, anchor, pickup a mooring, etc. Not good for the bucket though, too much frontal exposure. :lol:
Daddy

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:15 pm
by Dougster
You guys keep thinkin' out loud, something's gonna evolve. While I like the Campjon idea, it's a no go for me to have a cabin I can't close up for rain, sun, what ever. I kinda envisioned that thing swinging closed for the night, or rain, like a clam shell, and opened like that as needed. I can't visualize the Whaler idea but it sounds viable. Mullet, your scupper notion sure has appeal. Seems like I saw a pic you posted with a little box well, recessed into the motorwell sole for the pumps? I'm not big on trying to create anything other than a flat sole however. Maybe either side drains with PVC angling toward the motor well... Doesn't speak to me at the moment. Well, one thing at a time... I ordered some of those fancy gelmagic tubes and foam from Bateau to try on the sole cleats; that's where my head is now: get the the cockpit sole in. I called today about the order and Jacques answered. Very nice guy, and patient with an amateur.

Enjoying this part of the build Dougster

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:30 pm
by Spokaloo
Pretty unmistakable when the J man answers, isn't it....

E

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:18 pm
by Murry
Nice work Dougster and Good Luck with all the planning. It seems like you have some pretty good resources based on what I've read. Where would be without all the experience found on this site :?:

Keep up the good work,
Daniel

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:11 am
by MulletChoker
The opening would be fitted with a canvas or vinyl removable cover, maybe with some thin battens to keep the camber. It should be as tight and weatherproof as the original designed soft top, maybe more so.

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:15 am
by Spokaloo
Ive been giving this some serious consideration over the last day or so:

Image

Need something removable, and I need a project to keep my hands busy.

E

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:12 pm
by Daddy
According to Maynard Bray, the fellow in the picture, that cap weighs only 90 pounds, I have a friend who has helped him move the cap and he confirms that. Those windows are 1/16 inch lexan and there is no back to the cabin, just canvas when needed. People who have seen the boat in person have mixed feelings about the design, some love it, others not so much. Personally I think I would go more for the Ninegret cabin or the one Jacques designed except with a hard top.
Fun to ponder on. I am going to tape in the false transom on Nina today. It warmed all the way up to 30 and I have a good fire going in the shop.
Daddy

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:17 pm
by MulletChoker
Talk about being wimps, it got down to 30 last week and we stopped building!

Daddy, we used tabs on the hull (chine) like you and had some noticable print through even after all the layers of tape and cloth on top of them. I was amazed at all the fairing it took to blend them in.

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:51 pm
by Daddy
MC, I am using the 12 oz biax for tabs and grinding off the threads so they are pretty smooth. However, there it is, good or bad, I am actually in the process of filling in between the tabs with more biax and then going over the whole mess with a continuous line of tape. It might nott be pretty but....there is always fairing putty...did somebody say workboat?
I just crawled out from under nina after tabbing in the false transom from the inside and then will let it cook for a couple of days and then tape in the outside. This is Tumblehome Niina and I did not make any kerfs or slits in the ply. I used okume and it wrapped around the tranny without any fuss.

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:53 pm
by Daddy
Just had an additional thought, maybe I should do a bit of fairing before I put on the long runs of tape? Couldn't hurt, mix up a slurry of purple stuff.
Daddy

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:17 am
by MulletChoker
We also used the 12 oz biax for tabs, 4 inch wide about every 16 inches. Yours looked wider and closer together and if you filled inbetween with more tape it should be OK. To roughly fair those tabs you'd probably need a filler with good adhesive properties, not QuikFair.
It wasn't a big deal to fair the tabs after the hull was finished, I was just supprised at how much they stood out against the curve of the chine.

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:02 am
by ks8
Just had an additional thought, maybe I should do a bit of fairing before I put on the long runs of tape? Couldn't hurt, mix up a slurry of purple stuff.
Daddy
Taping over fairing will not be *structurally* sound at all. It will break away much easier than if bonded to wood or other glass. If you must *fair* before tape, then use wood flour, but that will be a &*$(@$# to sand (not impossible though), though you could go wet on wet. Still, seems best to do all glass laminations first and then fair over them. If you can, avoid any situation where you are doing glass laminations over fairing, especially in areas where the most possible strength is needed and *required*.

:)

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:23 am
by Daddy
Thanks for the update, I plan to use blended filler which sands pretty easily. I am also going to grind pretty vigorously before I do any filling, just careful not to go too far. Going to tape in the FT today. Warm here today, almost 40 degrees. Love it!
Really enjoying your progress.
Daddy

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:26 am
by Daddy
Ks, just read your post, the fairing would be in really small patches, wood flour is not so bad if you get on it the next day with a good surform or scraper and knock off the high spots. One nice thing about the chilly weather, the cure is a bit slower. Thanks for all of the help.
Daddy

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:07 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Glad you're back at it over there, thought you were missing working on the bottom. It's time to work on the inside! :D Let me know if you need an extra pair of hands for anything.
John

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:14 pm
by TomW
Daddy do not use the purple stuff bdfore putting down your tape or wood filets. Also your filets should be would flour. The purple stuff is just to weak take your time and build a quality boat. :wink: You have the skills. :D

Tom

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:04 pm
by Daddy
Right Tom, already done with woodflour. Grind it off tomorrow. Looking good or at least better. The tumblehome came out pretty good to but I wont really see it until I turn it over. Snowing right now in Vermont which is kinda sad after two days in the high thirtys. I wont sweat too much out in the shop.
Daddy

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:54 am
by Dougster
Let me know if you need an extra pair of hands for anything.
Thanks John, I will. And keep me updated on the boatport project. I'm movin' my typically slow way, fooling with the cleats. My Bateau shipment came Wednesday so I'm fixed up: marinepoxy, gelmagic cartridges, and foam. Lately it occurs to me to think through my cockpit layout a bit. If I want a helm chair instead of a bench I need to put the backing plate and such in the sole. I figure I'll follow the plans with the bench seating, but I better think it through a bit. What cockpit layout are you planning Daddy? Re the cabin, I lean toward the Bateau original design, but in 1/4' ply instead of canvas. Weight concerns me as Jacques takes care to make that general point about the Nina design. I figure I'll be amateur overweight anyway so don't want to push the cabin too far. I got day off and I'm movin' slow. Foggy morning, 58 degrees.

Says it's a good coffee morning Dougster

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:10 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I am thinking about two fold down seats for the helm and first mate, a bench seat across the back, no side benches, going the hard top cabin route. In the Defender catalog they have a fold down helm seat that has a wooden top (seat) and bronze mechanism, looks cool, not sure how comfy it would be for a long haul but would take very little space. Nice to have a day off, I would die for 58 degrees!!!
Daddy

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:08 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, you can always build seat boxes to hold your pedestals as well, instead of backing plates. Im thinking about doing just that for a helm seat once the snow recedes enough to retrieve her from the shop Im borrowing.

E

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:08 pm
by Daddy
Seat boxes equal storage, pedestals not so much. You can always use more storage on a boat that small.
Daddy

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:09 pm
by Dougster
Yeah, I don't like the backing plate hastle, plus it's just another weak link for water intrusion under the sole.
Seat boxes equal storage
I didn't think of that. You guys help clarify my ponder. Seatbox it is if I go for a helm chair.

Likes ponder clarification Dougster

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:22 pm
by chicagoross
We're conditioned by all of the crappy plastic boats we've had to think that seats go on pedastals. They are built that way only because it's cheaper to put 12" of aluminum pipe under a seat instead of building a seatbox. I love all of the storage space in my seatboxes - I think it's one of the reasons Bateau boats feel so "big" for their size; cause all of the boat gear is tucked neatly away, accessable and ready for use but not rolling around underfoot or crammed into too-small available storage areas... Tell ya what, the seat is a lot steadier on a ply-and-glass box than it is on a piece of aluminum tubing!

If you want as much cockpit space as possible, then just build smaller boxes that go right under your seats. You won't regret extra storage space. :D

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:01 pm
by peter-curacao
chicagoross wrote:They are built that way only because it's cheaper to put 12" of aluminum pipe under a seat instead of building a seatbox. ........... Tell ya what, the seat is a lot steadier on a ply-and-glass box than it is on a piece of aluminum tubing!
On the other hand I think a seat on a pedestal looks real cool and clean not so bulky, but who Iรขโ‚ฌโ„ขm I? :doh:

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:17 pm
by Daddy
No question about it. A matter of taste but in Nina the storage would be nice and depending on the seat used could be quite salty looking. Some boats really require a pedestal, just wouldnt look right otherwise. I am thinking complete foldaways for room in the cockpit but those boxes keep calling, wont know til I build it I guess.
Daddy

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:20 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Found this surfin' the 'net (or lost at sea):http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage ... at=0&pos=0 Maybe this will help your pondering on the cabin.
John

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:42 pm
by Lucky_Louis
John, the link you posted will always display the latest picture posted to the whole gallery... I think this is what you wanted?

Image

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:31 pm
by JohnC
Hey Louis,
That is the right picture, I haven't figured out how to post the picture instead of the link. I'm missing a step somewhere.
John

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:36 pm
by peter-curacao
JohnC wrote:Hey Louis,
That is the right picture, I haven't figured out how to post the picture instead of the link. I'm missing a step somewhere.
John
Did you highlight the link and then click on the Img button? second from the right next to the URL button in the window you are posting

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:59 am
by JohnC
Try this picture Image Same boat with the canvas down.
John

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:21 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for the pics John, but that last one is a little small. Looks like it's canvas, which I'm leaning away from. Although I would like a small dodger of sorts for the helm position. There's a good pic of one with a forward cabin in the power boat section under a DE 25 thread. Thing is, the cabin in the pic is a lot lower I think.

http://www.onj.nl/images/stories/boats/ ... C_7478.jpg

Here's a link to the thread. I look forward to finishing the cockpit sole and starting on the cabin sole. Then I can do some mock ups and visualize things easier. BTW, the cleats and sole thing is more fun than fairing :)

Movin' slow but movin' Dougster

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:27 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Both pictures came from the same website, I'm not sure why the second is so small. That boat is similar to a HandyBilly 18 and is for sale on another website, thought you might like to see the canvas option.
John

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:28 am
by chicagoross
the cleats and sole thing is more fun than fairing
I'll take the cleats and sole thing any day (actually a lot of fun after all that sanding!), but until you do it you don't really realize that a cleat around the edge and cleats on the sides of the stringers and frames translates into about a thousand pieces of cleats 8O measured, fit, and glued in! The really fun thing is figuring out how each piece of cleat on the curved (hull) surfaces can be braced into place long enough for the epoxy to set. :doh: room for lots of creativity! :D Have fun, Dougster!

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:23 pm
by Dougster
The really fun thing is figuring out how each piece of cleat on the curved (hull) surfaces can be braced into place long enough for the epoxy to set.
You nailed it Chicago. And after fairing the bottom, it really is kinda fun. I'm gettin' a system. Pics to follow soon. I spent an hour tonight in the ponder chair just enjoying a glass and Nina's pretty lines. What a great ride this is. I'm trackin' Cracker Larry's end game too. What a story, words fail me for now.

Says boat building beats Prozac Dougster

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:24 am
by ks8
If you are epoxying in a whole lot of short cleats and not trying to laminate one long perfectly curved cleat (yeah, figures I'd do that! :lol: ), then, if your putty is thick enough, slap it in position and use a strip of duct tape or two. Just wash off the duct tape adhesive with acetone well after all is cured. Or, have fun with battens all over the place. Done that too! :)

Image

Cleats that were critical in their positioning, I doweled into the panel or frame about a 1/16, sometimes an 1/8 of an inch, so I knew they wouldn't shift, especially if they were going to be curing from 2 am to 6 am. When it is a cleat, I don't think that dowelling would constitute a *hard spot*, but when in doubt, ask the designer. I was going to post one of those doweling pictures, but I can't seem to find it right now.

I think CL used a dab of hot glue at each end of the cleat. I like all epoxy in that joint, but it seemed to have worked for him. Many ways... of course, anything that is going *into* a hull panel, you want to be careful if you have already finished the exterior. 8O :?

Happy cleating! A Nina with no guts will see no glory. Give her some good guts!

:)

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:44 am
by Cracker Larry
Or leave a couple of very small spots dry of epoxy, and apply a couple of dabs of hot glue there. Then just hold it a second and it's done.

KS, you edited your post :lol: It only takes a little dab of hot glue to hold it until the epoxy dries. Beats trying to rig clamps and cawls.

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:48 am
by chicagoross
Actually, having not seen the pics of lots of 6" pieces like I have now, I did mine all in long single pieces. I used mainly lots of pieces of 1x2 scrap, cut to fit and braced anywhere possible to hold all the 1x1 cleats in place till they cured. Each cleat was a little challenge to ponder, not too taxing on the brain once you got started. Like Dougster said, "beats prozac". As fun as this process is, there is a sense of relief when you finally plumb, foam, and glue down the sole realizing you're never going to have to ponder that compartment again. :D

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:13 am
by ks8
Cracker Larry wrote:KS, you edited your post :lol:
hmmmm... never done that before... :lol:

Dougster... off subject... thinking maybe you've heard Butterfield Blues Band before... what did you think of Mike Bloomfield and Elvin Bishop on East West, Side 2 Track 4? Remember records? :D

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:39 pm
by Dougster
Hey ks, I know I've heard that album but I can't pull it up. I didn't get into the Butterfield that heavy, dunno why. My blues stuff was mostly Lightin' Hopkins, John Lee Hooker, anyone who played guitar with the last name King, Clapton, Johnny Winters, then assorted old blues guys. Early Ry Cooder killed me. You make me wonder if I have that old Butterfield LP in a box somewhere...What must it have been like to have been able to play guitar like Bloomfield? Thank God i couldn't, I'd have destroyed myself. I can play some though, and Nina likes it :) Pics follow maybe tomorrow. I'm trying a hot glue gun hybrid idea with tabs for the cleats. Show time is tomorrow. We'll see.

Says 12 bars is plenty Dougster

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:10 pm
by Cracker Larry
Trust me Dougster, it will work :wink:

Wishin I could play a guitar, or even sing a note. Been watching "Ray" tonight, movie about Ray Charles. That man had some talent, along with a few issues.

I'm with you, if I had been as good as Clapton I'd been long dead.

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:54 am
by Doug
Says boat building beats Prozac Dougster
Amen, brother :!:

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:10 am
by gk108
The hot glue trick really works well. It's especially handy if you have a part with critical locations, since you can place the part and not worry about it shifting position after the hot glue sets.
I used that method to locate the backing block for my bow eye. I drilled pilot holes in the block, then, with a dowel in the pilot hole for alignment, glued the block with epoxy and a couple spots of hot glue.
Image
This is before gluing. The dowel aligns to a centerline drawn on the front frame. After the glue set, I just drilled on through the pilot holes and the bow eye ended up right where it was intended.

Issues aside, I always liked Ray Charles. I was able to see three of his performances over the years and they were all consistent, high quality shows.

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:57 pm
by Dougster
Ray Charles, sure, who can forget his cover of "America"? And yeah, the hot glue gun thing helps plenty. I just finished a 3.5' cleat against the hull. First I ripped a bevel in the cleat to more or less match the hull. Maybe more than less. Anyway, then I cut some beveled tabs and primed them with epoxy:

Image
There's the tabs to the right of a cleat. Then I hot glued three tabs to the hull side, using a cleat spacer, straight edge, and glue to make sure the cleat would be level across the other cleats. Here's a pic of two tabs on the hull.
Image
Then I dry fit the cleat over the tab with some oddball clamps. Next I tore it all down, yanked off the cleats, and did it over 'cuz I wasn't careful enough the first time. This oops tear it down and do it over is standard operating procedure for me and I appreciate the ease of tearing things hot glued vs epoxied together. The second time seemed ok so I used a gelmagic tube and put in the cleat, using the tabs to position it.

Image

I checked with straight edge and it seems ok, so it's settin' up now. I got the gelmagic tubes to try them out and they are wondrous things but so pricey compared to mixing your own. They save time for sure and let you work neatly, but, really are an extravagance.

Tear it out and do it over Dougster

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:44 pm
by ks8
I can delete this if you want... couldn't resist, knowing you play...

Got to be music playing at least part of the time while building a boat! It's not just epoxy and glass and plywood and fillers and cleats that go into a boat when she's being built.

Thinking real soon Nina is gonna have sole, lots of it. And wondering what Dougster is humming or playing or listening to while mixing the goop... :D

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:35 pm
by Dougster
Hey I'm about ready to foam the cockpit. The plans call for a six gallon kit of foam, which seems like a bunch, but ok. So I'm wondering whether to foam just the sidewells in the cockpit or, as I'm inclined, include the center wells too? Maybe Daddy or Mullet are intending to foam and will chime in, I know Spokaloo didn't foam.

Wants play with the foam Dougster

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:56 pm
by Cracker Larry
Start with the sides, and if you don't run out of foam keep on going.
Can't hurt, won't do ya no good in the can :lol:

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:08 pm
by Daddy
Check Mulletts gallery, he did the sides of the cockpit, some in the bow and filled the bottoms of the compartments on either side of the motor well. That is specially good as there is a lot of weight in the motor.
I did not foam FESTIVUS at all. not sure what I will do with Nina
Daddy

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:51 pm
by Dougster
Here's the cockpit ready to foam. I could just foam the 4 outside sections or do all 8 sections, including the middle ones. Since the plans call for 6 gallons, I'm wondering if Jacques intended foaming the whole cockpit? Dunno, I'll check Mullet's gallery later this evening.

Image

There's the 8 sections for potential foam above. It was kinda fun doing the cleats. That middle section of cleats is a "borrowed" idea from Mullet, for which I'm grateful. Look ok?

Buildin' one day at a time Dougster

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:06 pm
by BassMunn
Looking good Dougster.
If the compartments will be permanently sealed I would foam them if you have enough. Like Larry said it ain't no good in the can. :D

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:54 am
by chicagoross
The outsides are pretty shallow - they won't take that much foam - start there, you should have plenty of foam left for the center ones. Recycle your muffin tops. Coming along very nicely, Doug!

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:49 am
by Dougster
it ain't no good in the can
Well, he does make a point. Heck, I even know what "Recycle your muffin tops" means. Guess I'll roll on a make sure coat of marinepoxy and foam it. I'd start today, but gotta go to work. Glad to go too, given the alternative.

Ready to ride and fixin' to foam Dougster

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:59 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
I think Chicago means when the foam expands above the cleats, you'll need to cut the "muffin top" of flush with the top of the cleats. The foam can be recycled elsewhere below the sole. Looks like you have been busy over there.
John

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:34 pm
by Cracker Larry
Didn't he say that :doh: :P
Heck, I even know what "Recycle your muffin tops" means
.

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:02 pm
by Dougster
Yep, I got it. They don't give the stuff away so use that left over in the next pour. I spent a half hour fiddling with one of the sole templates just now (it's not quite right yet). I'm using cheap ($10 a sheet) luan from HD to make templates of the two halves that make up the cockpit sole. No way I could measure that and cut it right the first time on the good ply. They outta be perfect mirror halves, of course, but, well, let's just say I'm close. Anyway, that's easier to do before the foam is in 'cuz I can climb around better than walking on the foam I'd think. Gettin' there. Larry---we're all waiting for the first fish pics. John---time to get rolling on that boat port!

Says we got boats to build Dougster

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:01 am
by chicagoross
Once you got the foam cut off flat, it's really easy to walk on - you'd be surprised how strong it is, holds me easy. I templated my soles after the foam; by that time I'd learned just cut everything an inch over sized and then mark little cutoffs with a pencil for a few dry-fdits until it fit snug. Remember, it's still gonna get fileted and taped, so a small gap is once again no big deal.

And especially remember that ALL pondering is to be suspended once foaming operations commence! :D

I got a line on a 2006 Johnson mil-spec 30hp that came out of Big Navy surplus here last month (if you haven't ever seen the milspec versions of OB motors, they're pretty cool, and supposedly are very "underated" on the labeled hp) and started looking through my own Nina plans again. :D Course it would also work well on the FS17, another plan I admire. Itching to do another build!

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:14 am
by Daddy
Ross, do Nina, we need a fleet!!
Daddy

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:30 am
by tech_support
This is a lot of dry glass, did it get wet out more? ....

Image

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:59 am
by Spokaloo
Joel there was an earlier photo of the same spot a few months ago.

E

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:24 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Started on the model C17 (1/12 scale), the boatport is next, height still an issue (powerline) so if I can't raise the roof, then I'll lower the floor! :idea: :D
John

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:05 pm
by Dougster
This is a lot of dry glass, did it get wet out more?
Well, Joel, not yet, that's the plan for this Friday. It is a little dry in areas, but not so white and dry as the flash in that pic make it look. Any problems with proceeding to the seal coat of epoxy now? Wouldn't care to grind that glass off, it's dang well stuck.

John, lowering the floor sounds tougher than raising a power line. Good luck on working out a space.

Thankin' folks for checkin' in Dougster

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:50 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Didn't really mean to lower the floor, the grade on that side is about 12" lower than the garage floor. I'll just bring it up about 4" on the street side to level it and it will still be 8" below the garage floor. Good luck with the fiberglass. I'm off Friday if you need a hand.
John

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:51 pm
by peter-curacao
Dougster wrote:
This is a lot of dry glass, did it get wet out more?
Well, Joel, not yet, that's the plan for this Friday.
Can you do that? glass that has been already been wet out (a little) wet it for a second time? I always sand/grind those spots out and relay them with glass. Thankfully this didn't happened to much to meImage

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:05 pm
by tech_support
Can you do that? glass that has been already been wet out (a little) wet it for a second time?
If you can get it to wet out, but that is not easy to do.

maybe its the angle, but in that picture there looks to be a lot of dry glass, also their is an air bubble under the tabbing of the frame where it overlaps the chine.

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:39 pm
by Dougster
Yeah, I think the glass is starved to varying degrees. Mostly starved over areas of tape or overlapped glass. I don't see the bubble you see Joel, but there are a few. They are small and easy to cut/grind out. The angle does exaggerate the white/dry look considerably, but it is there. Grinding all the white areas out and laminating pieced in glass is possible, but I wonder if that would add significant strength, since it would make a collage of pieces instead of a uniform, albeit compromised, mat. The glass is laminated to the ply. It's the top glass or top part of the threads that are starved and have that white shine. My thought is to deal with the bubbles (there are not that many), then put a coat of epoxy on and walk away. It's problematic, but I am convinced the glass is laminated well to the ply and not likely to delaminate. It's a sealed bilge. The question is strength, I guess, and that decision is my responsibility, I know. Any feedback is welcome.

Not ready to sing the boat builder blues yet Dougster

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:40 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, have you ever tried wetting out your tape off the boat? I think it would be almost impossible to have a dry area in your taping or not fully wetted out if you do it off the boat and then apply the wet out tape. Goes faster too without a lot of stooping over the boat. :D I use an old wood ironing board covered with plastic. Easy to move around the boat, adjustable height, easy to see the tape is fully wetted and then roll up if it is very long and put in place, seems to work out really well, resin left on the plastic is absorbed into the next tape.
Daddy

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:17 pm
by tech_support
I would try to wet it out, then "mash" a woodlfour/epoxy slurry into the open weave spots - this will basically fill any gaps under the weave and seal off the glass from moister.

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:54 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Shine, I never thought about the woodflour thing. Is that to keep it from sagging to fill in the weave? I did grind out some bubbles today and in the process found a 9" section I didn't like. So I ground that out and put some more glass on. Then I rolled a coat of grey tinted marinepoxy. So tomorrow I'll do the "mash" thing. It's not that much area and won't take long. The bow's worse, especially where I cut the slits to make the side panels bend. Should have faired them better. Spent two unpleasant hours pokin' around with a utility knife and sander. I'm gettin' it.

Appreciates the watchful eye Dougster

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:58 pm
by Dougster
I just noticed your post Daddy. I did do that on some of the tape, and it's not dry :wink: Most of the dry area isn't tape though, it's glass on the vertical side panels. I think there was a combo of things: the dry ply absorbed some and some sagged as it warmed up prior to setting. Joel mentioned this in some other post. Might have been better to pre wet the ply on the verticals.

Says he'll try that on the next boat Dougster :)

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:58 pm
by BassMunn
Dougster you'll still get plenty of practice on this boat :wink:

Wet the area first and then lay the tape or glass over it, that way it stays were you put it. Let it lay there a while and you will see that it actually half wets out itself, you then just give it another coat and you're done.

So break out that foam already :lol:

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:58 pm
by Dougster
Well, yeah I'm still practising for sure. No foam yet. I finished touching up the final wet out area. Joel's tip using the grey dye in the resin works well; you can easily see areas you've missed. Trouble is, it completely covered up the dry looking areas too so I'm not sure where to "mash" (schmear?) the woodflour epoxy. Really it looks ok to me as is.

Image

See what I mean? Anyway, I'll poke and feel around it tomorrow and decide if some areas need the "mash". Meanwhile I started work in the bow and boy did I do a lousy job with the glass and tape. Found a six inch bubble that I tried to fill with plastic syringe. Dunno I like it, probably be grinding tomorrow there and putting in more tape. It's kinda uncomfortable working up in the bow, it's so narrow, but then I deserve to suffer after the lousy tape job I did there. No excuse, I believe the phrase is. I'll get it though.

Gonna foam someday Dougster

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:44 pm
by Dougster
Spent two unpleasant hours penance for my lousy glass work in the bow. Jammed up there in the forepeak, so to speak, finding huge bubbles and grinding them out. I started with the RO sander but it was too big a beast. I have the Fein Multimaster and it was just ideal for this. Look at the mess and be more careful than I when laminating glass.
Image
The flash made that funny sparkly pattern that's roughly vertical and looks like dry glass. It's not. In fact this glass was all wet out, but floated up a bit in the areas you see ground out. The biggest lower one is the one I tried to fill with grey tinted epoxy. You can see the grey at the bottom edge of the area and the run out at the keel. I ground every thing back to hard, well laminated glass. I used a box cutter too, poking around everwhere and such. I'm tuckered for now but next I'll paint those ground out areas with marinepoxy, let that get tacky, fill with woodflour thickened 'poxy, then lay some glass over that and wet it out. Then stay the heck on it and make sure it's 1)wet and 2)not floating up :!:

Looking forward to moving on Dougster

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:12 pm
by Dog Fish
Dougster, in the end you will be glad you back tracked a little and went through that messy job to get her fixed up right. Now you can move on feeling good about it. I hate pondering about should-a would-a could-a. Good luck as you move onward.

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:00 pm
by Dougster
Yeah Dog, I sure wasn't gonna walk away and leave that. Only shoulda/woulda/coulda now is wearing a long sleeve shirt so my forearms wouldn't be full of prickly 'glass particals :)

Buildin' Nina, day at a time Dougster

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:58 am
by D2Maine
nm

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:47 pm
by Dougster
Some days sing. After a nice morning with big breakfast, long walk, a few errands, etc., went down to the shop. I used all the foam I had (2 gallon kit) and didn't even finish half the cockpit the day before yesterday. The tip from Fred in another thread about laying down a plastic covered board, heavily weighted, while foaming sure worked a trick on keeping the foam flush. Like Fred suggested, I only covered about 2/3's of the opening being foamed and let it spill out the rest. It makes trimming much quicker, but may compress the foam some, I'm not sure. Thanks for the idea Fred. Anyway, I ordered more foam and yesterday finished the templates for the two halves of the sole. Today I dug through the stored pile of ply (dreaded task) and found, buried deep, the two pieces I needed, in fine shape after nearly two years. I lay the templates on 'em and cut. The best thing was I made myself use my new little circular saw instead of the jig saw, and like folks have said, got a much smoother line than I can with the jig. Then, clamped the templates on, buggered around with a block plane to make things just even, and dry fit 'em. Glory be, they dropped right in on the first try. Gotta be a first for me. Here's a pic.

Image
Appreciates the touch of grace Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:12 pm
by Fred in Wisc
Hey look at that, Dougster's got sole!

Glad the foam tip was helpful, I didn't figuure it out until the very end of foaming my boat. I'll use it more on the next one.

Nice looking build, Dougster. Bet it feels great seeing such a big project come together.

Fred in Wisc

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:44 pm
by Daddy
Nice Dougster, I havent been able to work on my Nina recently so it is nice to see you make some headway, I wonder if MC has made any posts, or tried to, in his gallery. I kind of got used to seeing his weekly progress, thank you for filling in :lol:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:40 pm
by MulletChoker
We are progressing slow but sure. The cabin and coaming are finished except for fairing and sanding. We ended up with the open cabin top with a canvas cover; we built a 2 1/2 inch llip around the inside of the top edge of the cabin which (hopefully) does several things. First, it stiffened up the cabin sides considerably, second, it should help keep any spray that may blow under the canvas out of the cabin, and finally it gave a nice finished look to the cabin with the cover off. As soon as the gallery opens up I'll post some pictures.
Glued on the aft deck yesterday, getting close to having no more building to do, we'll soon switch to painting and installing hardware.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:40 pm
by Daddy
MC, What did you use to make the coamings? I have a lot of 1/4 scraps left over and was thinking of a double layer of 1/4 laminated in place for the coamings and a single layer for the cabin sides. Hate to waste it. :(
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:44 pm
by Dougster
Hey MC, I look forward to the pics of the cabin top, as I mull the thing over and over in my mind. I've never dealt with a canvas top and wonder about them. I would think you take them off to trailer the hull? Snaps hold 'em on? A pain to stretch over and snap? Not? Dunno. Right now I'm looking for a suitable fuel tank. Seems like the dimensions are around 32" by 17" by 15" (L x W x H). What did you go with? Have you looked at tanks yet Daddy? I'm waiting on more foam to finish the cockpit for now. Need to start figuring out cockpit drains/bilge pumps/scuppers too.

In a fun stage of the build Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:23 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I thought I would wait until I flip her over and take a look and do some measuring to see what will fit and where. I am pretty sure that I will not put the tank in the footwell of the cabin because I want more footwell so it might be just aft of the cabin footwell under the cockpit sole and feed the filer and vent up through the port console onto the side deck. Also pretty sure that I will put on a hard top on the cabin and the big news is that I have bought a motor. Not the one I originally intended, the T25 yamaha, but a 30 hp Tohatsu with only 25 hrs., all controls, for $2500. I just couldn't resist. I will ask the prop gurus to help me size the prop when I get a bit closer.
Glad you are at a fun part of the build, I still have the nightmare of sanding hell ahead of me. :help:
Keep up the fun!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:32 am
by Spokaloo
Doug there is a production Tempo tank that fits just fine, all it needs is the filler neck modification as detailed in my blog. Works like a champ, and you will fill it occasionally at best....

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:26 am
by MulletChoker
We used the 1/4 inch scraps for the cabin sides and coamings, the coamings doubled and using Biax tape on the outside filet: it's not going anywhere.

As for the canvas top, any boat canvas shop experienced in dodgers and bimini tops should be able to easily make a strong tight fit that removes easily, ours will have 2 or 3 fiberglass battens and SS snaps along the edges. As long as the cabin sided are stiff enough, the top should be tight and pretty.

We used the Moeller 19 gal tank from Defender and had to modify the fill pipe to a 90 degree fitting as per Spokaloo, no problem, fits great.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:58 pm
by Dougster
Thanks MC and Spoke. I have looked at the Moeller 19 and will check with the welder in town I know of. I believe that's an aluminum fill and can take him a pic from Spoke's thread. I see angled filled Moeller's that are fine but only in mongo big sizes. Oh well. No foam today, but I bet it comes tomorrow. If so, friday I'm off and can finish foaming the cockpit. There's a canvas shop I have seen on my way to work near a small local lake, so maybe I'll have a talk with them too. Haven't made up my mind on the cabin roof yet, need to see the options. I haven't had time to check the gallery yet to see if it's working. Tomorrow.

See's the weekend coming Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:05 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, I forgot about your post re the Tohatsu. I have looked at just that motor online and was leaning that way till I saw the new e-tech 30hp advertised and it's low cowling profile. Still, $2500 sure looks good. What do you figure the cowling height above the hull is? Or do you intend to use a motorwell cover? I'm fond of that look. Are you sanding this weekend?

Rather foam than sand Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:39 pm
by Daddy
Sanding tomorrow, supposed to be in the fifties so I will leave the doors open, the motor is the short shaft, I am doing a 15 inch transom, and the height of the motor over the tranny is 18 inches so I should be able to have a nice low profile motor cover over the motor (the honda 25hp is 20 inches). I have done some research and the ninegret and handy billy both have 15 inch transoms so it should be just fine. Not so sure I like the idea of a used motor but the price was just too good. That motor new is around 5k.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:16 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
There is a welding shop here in Canyon Lake that does some aluminum work if that helps you with the filler neck. Still waiting on rain, only 3 or 4 ramps open still. I went to #6 yesterday, still open but good luck launching (and retrieving) :doh: anything bigger than a canoe.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:00 pm
by Dougster
Hey John, how's it going with the model? I've been busy at work but will finish with foam tomorrow or, most likely, run out of foam again 8O Man the cockpit is big...I've used a little over 4 gallons of foam. The sole panels have a coat of epoxy on the underside, with one more light one to go for insurance. I found a link to an 18 gallon tank with a horizontal fill that might just work, but I'll need to crawl around and measure real carefully. Check it out:
http://www.oceanlinkinc.com/tanks/fshow ... =FOLT1811M
If Spoke, Daddy, or MC see this maybe they'll give it a gander. Or even a ponder.

Likes to gander while he ponders Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:26 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug go through your boat and put a tape on the hole for the tank. I think the tank will fit, but you will probably have to cut a hole in the C bulkhead for the filler neck, and hopefully it runs into the port cabinet and not into the center walkway. My fuel fill runs through the bulkhead above the sole, inside the cabinet and up to the gunnel. This might work out fine, just make sure the fill neck doesn't stick through the bulkhead as well as the hose (or at least be prepared for it).

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:06 am
by TomW
MadRus you have it about right.
5. Paste it to your message, highlight it then hit the Img buttom at the top of the message box. It automatically puts the two img's at the front and back of the pasted highlit section.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:29 am
by Dougster
Hey, Eric, thanks. I mean to measure today. I had the same thought: fill hose through the port console, but will the fill pipe have to go through the bulkhead or just the hose? I'm not keen on the fill pipe going through the bulkhead (vibration and rigid pipe instead of flex hose). If that's the case I might prefer your welded right angle fill solution.

Says it's too cool to foam this morning but fine for coffee Dougster :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:59 pm
by Spokaloo
Just lay tape to it and see what happens. I agree that Id rather have just the flexible part running through the hole (mine is oversized so that nothing touches the hole itself) than the fixed part for not only safety, but for ease of installation and removal. It would be a pain to have that setup and not be able to thread the tank into the hole.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:24 am
by Daddy
Wow, finally able to get on the forum again! Dougster, Eric, Mullett, have you seen the new issue of Wooden boat mag (May/June issue) great article about the Wm. Hand Handy Billy with a picture on the front cover of Maynard Bray's version. Basically singing the praise of the economy of the semi-displacement hull. Interesting read.
Dougster, as far as the tank goes you will have to do as E suggested, put your measure stick in and see how it will work. If I had flipped my hull I could try too, but too early for me. I have a bit more to go to catch up. :help:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:50 pm
by Spokaloo
I saw the cover on the website, but my issue hasn't arrived yet (stupid east coast publishers....).

Can't wait to read about how I already know my boar performs!

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:32 am
by Daddy
Dougster, E, MC, Spring and warmer weather has finally come to the Norhteast, I might actually have to do some work and might even begin to catch up. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:57 pm
by Daddy
E. did you get the plans for your boar at Cochon.com? :D :lol: (sorry, couldn't resist)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:23 pm
by Spokaloo
Im at work and tried that link. Barracuda says its adult!

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:40 am
by cape man
Dougster,

Where you at man?! Missing your posts.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:43 am
by Daddy
Spokaloo wrote:Im at work and tried that link. Barracuda says its adult!

E
Oh my, you're right, I checked it out, I made the name up, you know, since you made a typo and referred to your boat as your "boar" and cochon is French for pig.... oh well, guess I wont go into the joke writing business, BTW, did you ever get your issue of WB? At one time I had a copy of the original story of the two couples who ran a home built Wm. Hand 24 foot open boat from Long Island NY up to Digby Nova Scotia and back. Great story. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:16 am
by Dougster
Hey guys, I finally figured the cookie thing out two days ago when Jacque posted how to go to tools. I was just pushing the "Delete cookies on this board" tab on the forum web page. Doesn't work for me (Mozilla browser). Also been stressed out at work and feeling beat up. Made some progress though and hope to post pics of a glued down sole by tomorrow. I used just under 6 gallons of foam for the whole cockpit. Leveled it by sanding with a 2by4 and strip of 36 grit belt sander paper. I coated the underside of the sole panels twice and sanded the areas where glue goes last night. They dry fit just fine, though are just a bit springy, which I'm sure will firm up with the glass and tape. So, I got panels that are prepped and dry fit, and I got gel magic. Seems like, as for as sole goes, that's the ticket to ride. The panels are a little unwieldy so I'll probably smear glue all over me gettin' 'em in. I'm pullin' out the epoxy jeans and shirt (got several :) ) You learn some odd things building a boat, like what to wear and how to delete "cookies". Go figure.

Slow train cresting a hill Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:15 am
by Spokaloo
No WB magazine, stupid east coast publisher....

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:29 pm
by Dougster
No WB yet for me either, but a book I ordered "Boat Mechanical Systems Handbook" came in the mail so I'm ok. Here's a Pic

Image

Tomorrow morning I'll remove the rock, anvil, and toolbox clamps. It went well except for one moment when I was putting in the second panel. It didn't want to seat right 'cuz the first panel was not pushed up against the side just enough. It just took a little quick fiddle and cuss till things went click and dropped in place. I used 5 gell magic dispensing tubes, with one mixing tip for all 5. That's way more pricey than buying it in bulk and mixing your own, but working by yourself with a lot of acreage to cover before things set up, well...it sure did help. If you had someone to mix for you and load the baggies, that'd be good I think.

Got sole Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:38 pm
by tech_support
big step completed, lookn good

Now you can work from inside the boat, much easier :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:52 pm
by Cracker Larry
I'm toasting to your milestone Dougster, or millstones 8) Man you got your exercise toting all those rocks :!:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:33 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Shine and Larry. Here's to you Larry, I'm toasting back in a few minutes. Oh, and regarding totin' those rocks. It would have been tough on a regular guy, but given my massive upper body strength plus three ibuprofen and the upcoming Vodka tonic, well...

He's maybe a little tuckered Dougster :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:42 pm
by Cracker Larry
Yep, that long board sanding is good prep for rock moving :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:18 pm
by Daddy
Way to go Dougster! Now for some more fillets and tape. And you filled the entire space under the cockpit with foam?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:36 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Looks like your moving right along. Remind Larry that if you didn't move those rocks fast enough, that the "Enforcer" will "help" you with that! 8O
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:42 am
by Dougster
Yeah John, we Big Boys have our ways. Rocks are moved though and it looks good to me. I gotta go to town today to practice with my little band, so no time to post the final sole pic, sans rocks. How's the model and the boatport project coming? Next time your in the area I wish you'd drop in, check out the progress and give me some tips on my boatport idea. Re the cockpit, yeah Daddy, I filled the whole thing. It adds weight for sure, but peace of mind too. I checked out your gallery yesterday and sure admire those cool curves you put in Nina's transom (can't let my Nina hear that). Where are you with the fairing? When you flip you'll drive right by me and then I'll have both you and Mullet showing me how it's done :)

Wishing folks a good day Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:16 pm
by Daddy
Fairing is coming slow, glassed in the skeg and made a mess of it, too cold and epoxy did not flow out and had to grind off bubbles and rough work. Now to do it all again but more carefully. Still a way to go with fairing the rest of the hull. Lots of purple stuff spread around. Just got two cords of firewood delivered for next winter
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:34 pm
by Dougster
I'm hoping to do the fillet/tape on the sole all in one go tomorrow. Next day could be glass. Bateau came through with the care package in 4 days (ordered Monday a.m., arrived Thursday p.m.) Pretty darn good. So here's the deal. Sole's too wide for 50"of glass to cover it all, so gotta go two pieces, either for/aft or port/starboard. I lean two port/storboard pieces, with an overlap (6"?) down the fore/aft seam where the two sole pieces join. I guess that'll make a little hump down the center but not overlapping seems wrong (right?). 'Course the glass comes up the sides +6" or more. Got my rollers, measure cups, chip brushes, sqeegee, vinegar, acetone, nitrile gloves, big butt trash can, paper towels, positive attitude, and....bless my neighbor, on loan 2 John Lee Hooker CD's. Ideas/suggestions? Especially re the glass two part/overlap thing.

Says we oughta name a battleship the USS John Lee Hooker Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:30 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I dont know about the overlap. For strength it seems the right thing to do, I have also seen tutorials that show letting the glass set up a bit and then cutting with a straightedge, lifting the glass, removing the bottom piece of waste and them pressing it back into place, no hump as a result. When I did the sole on FESTIVUS I overlapped and left it like that. When I paint it this sumer with the dont slip coating I am hoping the slight hump will vanish. Great that you are making so much progress. I got a coat of purple stuff all over the hull of tumblehome nina and will start sanding as soon as my new particle mask arrives from Jamestown.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:53 pm
by Spokaloo
Douggler I did the overlap down the centerline. Seeing as it was a seam, I thought it best to let the glass do some strengthening.

Image

Notice how big I made the overlap. It might be overkill, but thats the most heavily beaten on section of the boat, being all of the foot traffic and often the area where things drop or are thrown most often.

I cut a straight line on the sides 6" up, lots of strength, but it did take some fairing compound to get it to hide.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:35 am
by Dougster
Thanks guys. Eric's thoughts are the same as mine: it's a seam. Otherwise I'd butt the glass together maybe. And I've already ordered more QuickFair. Neat post on your Nina's performance figures in the power Boats section BTW. Good luck sanding Daddy. I had a hard time with the guide coat (put it on too thick for one). Up toward the bow it was tough to use the long board effectively. Check out the new WB mag on longboards. Mine was a little too long (36") and too stiff (1/4" ply) I'm thinking. I'd want a real flexible one to do it again. Dunno where to find the old sail battens they recommend but 1/8" luan might do.

Got his epoxy pants on this morning Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:25 pm
by Daddy
Douggler, glad you got your WB, I suppose that E is still waiting :lol: ..... Great article on the Hand boats. I really have to get back to work on FESTIVUS and let nina alone till I/m finished finishing. E's idea of the wide overlap makes sense for the high traffic area.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:01 pm
by Dougster
E's idea of the wide overlap makes sense for the high traffic area.
Yeah, he makes a good point. It's one of many times he's given me good help. Thanks Eric. I taped the sole in today and pre-cut the glass for tomorrow. Sure would be nice to get it all laid. Oh, and my aren't those Hand boats gorgeous!

Sayin' a prayer for a good resin mix Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:27 pm
by Daddy
Do you have anyone helping you Dougster, if you do be sure you are the one doing the mixing, I figure if I make a mistake no one else will feel bad, just take your time and don't get distracted. :? :cry:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:28 am
by Dougster
Hey Daddy, I'm working solo, but sure do agree with your mix it yourself. Things go wrong sometimes and if so I'd want it to be on me. Like you say, I wouldn't want someone feeling bad about it. I gave it a go Sunday and got it half done. It went well, though I struggled with the right angles between sole and side panels. I think I tend to make my fillets too small, but it seems pretty good in the end. I was a bit disappointed in that I had hoped to do both panels; chemical bond and all that. But in truth I was tired after two hours and couldn't see any good way to lay the second one with the first still wet. It was after supper before it set up and I didn't have steam left for it then. I'm off friday and intend to lay the second (last) piece of glass. I'll post a pic and hoist a glass to that. I did take time to look through Mullet's gallery and started feeling kinda intimidated :lol: Nice work for sure, and a help to early timers like me. I need to look back at his sump pump/scupper arrangement as I can't get a handle on that.

Enjoying this part of the build Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:34 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I know the feeling, hard to keep going when you are tired and that would be when you make a mistake anyway. Smart to wait another day. Good luck on Friday. I have been working on three boats now, new rubrails on a dinghy, repainting FESTIVUS, and fairing nina when I get tired of the other two. :)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:04 am
by MulletChoker
Dougster,
We've been at it for 18 months now and most of the work has been in 1 to 2 hour sessions at the most, just doesn't pay to work when you're tired or rushed, anyway remember (without getting too zen) 'the journey is the destination'. Enjoy.
Our scupper/sump arrangement is kind of a wild guess as to how the cockpit will drain, we'll of course know more when she hits the water, just couldn't bear to cut scuppers in the side of the hull (yet).

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:27 pm
by Daddy
MC and Dougster, I can just see those big side scuppers drainng out a wave that broke over the side of the boat. Those little bitty scuppers in the transom are not going to do that. The next question is: will I be out in the kind of weather where that could happen. Maybe, but not of my own free will. I will put in enough scupper in the transom to drain a heavy rain while she is at dock and a helluva big bilge pump for the worst case. I dont plan any kind of sump but just the pump right in front of the transom, figure the water will naturally drain there but I havent got that far yet so who knows. :)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:04 pm
by Spokaloo
Good thought on your part D.

For example, I know my boat won't be out in big seas, so I went with a large scupper to a sump with bilge pump. The next boat will have LARGE scuppers with plugs because it will be out in snotty water.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:59 pm
by TomW

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:46 pm
by Dougster
Darn right those are big, Tom! I looked at 'em just the other day. I won't cut any without putting her in the water and seeing where the line is in relation to the sole. And you can bet I'll never be in big water on purpose, but things happen. I guess a couple of big bilge pumps in the motor well is it for now. It's nice to hear from you guys. I worked for a living today but it was weird. The school district I consult for is one that just closed for the swine flu thing! I didn't realize it. Got up, strapped on a tie, drove to a school, well, nobody there. 'Course I realized what was going on. I had a bunch of folders with reports to write, so I went home, took my laptop down to the shop, set up at my little desk and wrote all day. Misery. Nina thought me odd and though I looked at her longingly, I stayed the course. Odd happenings.

Taking it as it comes Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:38 pm
by gk108
The spammers seem to be on top of this flu. My work email is well filtered, but today I got one insisting that I make my business ready for the flu outbreak. :x

Hopefully, Nina will understand that it is in her best interests that you sit there and ignore her like that. :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:06 pm
by Dougster
Hopefully, Nina will understand that it is in her best interests that you sit there and ignore her like that.
Well, if she wants a nice engine sittin' on her fair little backside, she will. :)

Sayin' it's so Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 12:10 pm
by Dougster
Finished glassing the sole yesterday. Looks pretty good today. The corners are white, but don't seem a bit dry. When I do corners I always seem to have so much glass it sets up white like that. Anyway, everything is quite hard and no bubbles noticed yet. Also, it sure did stiffen things up puttin' the glass. It's a nice feeling walking around on the sole.

Image

That picture is about all I've accomplished this morning. My wife's been complaining about a back door needing paint and a metal patio table needing the same. This morning she volunteered to paint if I'd prep. So, of course, that was too good a deal to pass up. I'm at the 'puter posting while she's still painting :)

Knows a good thing Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 12:31 pm
by Daddy
Lookin good Dougster,
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 3:08 pm
by Spokaloo
Very nice.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:11 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Looking good over there, bet you're glad to have the sole in. I think I finally have the "boatport" figured out (I know I keep saying that), I'll have to narrow it down to 9'0" wide to meet the setback and it will be left open on 3 sides. I'll just work on 1 side from the outside rather than inside the overhang.

Still need more rain,
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:54 pm
by Fonda@kauai
Solid 8) I bet she's getting strong now.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:49 pm
by Dougster
Fonda, you're right. Last night I climbed up in her and thought just that. Very solid in the cockpit. 3/8" ply and 12 oz glass equals a good, solid sole. It's a comfort. I'm swamped at work through May so haven't been posting, much, just reading, but I'll be more on it soon, 'cuz I'm off most of the summer :D Count me in on help with the boat port John, I gotta build one too and dunno really where to start. I will say though, if you start building a boat you kinda loose your fear of tryin' stuff like that. Right now I need to settle on a fuel tank, 'cuz I want to do the cabin seat tops next and the tank is under them. Also, I'm pondering the bait tank thing (build one, buy one and install it somewhere, not sure). It's a fun part of the build. Oh yeah, and I've had a little conflict with mice in my shop. They chewed on my plans 8O I lucked out and everything's still readable, but...Jeez! Right now its poison and traps. Two met their demise in the traps, don't know about the poison. I hate to use that stuff, but, my plans!!

Says they crossed the line Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:31 pm
by Dougster
Oops, go figure. I need to throw this out for ideas/suggestions. My camera's battery is dead so no pic for now. I went with the Moeller 19 gallon fuel tank, thinkin', well, it's worked for Spoke and Mullett. Mine came today and I'll be darned if the fill isn't molded plastic instead of aluminum. I was gonna get the aluminum fill cut and welded to a right angle like the other builds so now that's out. I bought it through amazon and there are return instructions, so there's always that. Any ideas on how to convert that fill to right angle, since it's molded plastic? I'll look for a fitting on line but, dunno. Wish I could post a pic, can tomorrow.

Says there's always some little dang thing Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:11 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Try this link: http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm ... goryID=483 I think this is the Moeller tank you are talking about (with aluminum fittings). Sorry, can't get the right link, go down about 1/3 page to Moeller 19 Gallon Below Deck Fuel Tank #032519 :doh:
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:32 pm
by Dougster
Hey John how you doing? Have you started on the boat port thing? Yeah, I've seen those and thought the one I ordered had an aluminum fill but nope, it's molded plastic. Can't find any elbow fittings yet. There's a gates right angle hose piece but it looks like too much radius to me. Hate to have to send this one back but I might have to. I start my summer break after this week and want to get going on this tank thing.

Scratchin' his head on this one Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:49 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Still thinking about the boatport, I have a Plan C for that (it's always good to have a Plan C :lol: ), more on that later. In the meantime I may be back to doing something smaller like an FL14 first. SWMBO wants a small boat that can get into out of the way places and would be easy to tow. I also have an existing spot (back patio) to build the FL14 without the boatport (the C17 won't fit).
Remember, if you need a hand with anything, I'm just down the street.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:57 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, where are you? What's happening with your Nina? Worried about you and Mullett Chocker :cry:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:56 pm
by JohnC
Hey Daddy,
So far as I know Dougster's OK, he is still working on the fuel tank issue. It has also been really hot (100+) almost every day :help: here for about 10 days. I saw him online here a few days ago, I have his phone number if he doesn't pop up this week I'll give him a call.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:30 am
by MulletChoker
We are still here. Motor is mounted and running, canvas top is in the works, trying to finish wiring and hoping for a splash July 3rd. Also hot here, everything slows for summer in the tropics. Will try to get some pics up soon.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:54 am
by Daddy
Great, glad to hear you are making progress, look fwd to the pics, my nina is at a standstill while I finish the furniture for my GT22 which has been launched for the summer but needs some finishing. :oops:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:12 am
by Dougster
I'm still buildin', slow as ever. Sorry I have posted of late. I finally pulled the trigger on another fuel tank. Here's the link:
http://www.oceanlinkinc.com/tanks/fshow ... OLT1701-1M
This one will fit, if only because I can't return it so I'll dang well make it fit :) . The tank is due in two more weeks. I just finished most of the cabin cleats and had some fun Rube Goldberg moments with clamps fitting the pieces that must bend to the hull. Here's an example.
Image

Here's a pic from today:
Image

The right bow cleat shows a little support piece underneath it. I put the full cleat in too high in that area and spent a maybe not so pleasant two hours grinding, sanding, chiseling, planing, cursing it down to fit. Emerged with at least a few of my knuckles not barked and a nice level cleat. That's me. Do it wrong then fix it.

Next I'm starting on the sole/seat tops. I don't get it yet and meant to check out your gallery today Mullet (and Spoke's blog) for hints. Seems like the plans show two pieces with the seam down the middle, which would require a butt plate there I guess? I wondered last night if the two pieces could be cut fore and aft rather than port and starboard, to put the seam across a bulkhead. Probably would need another piece of ply, but may need one anyway for the cabin mod. Anyway, thanks for the check in, I'll post here more often. I read the forum every day. BTW, John, what's with the boat port? I'd like to come over and check it out and pick your brain for building my own.

Still buildin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:19 am
by Daddy
Dougster, check Mullett's gallery, he has some great new pics, You can also see ow he handled the seam down through the middle.
BTW, Mullett, do you plan on putting a cover over your motor?
Dady

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:27 pm
by Spokaloo
Clamps look fine to me....

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:35 pm
by chicagoross
Movin right along, Dougster! "Rube Goldberg moments" is a good description of fitting all those interior clamps along the hull! :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:53 pm
by tech_support
great creative clamping :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:51 pm
by BassMunn
Dougster wrote:
Seems like the plans show two pieces with the seam down the middle, which would require a butt plate there I guess? I wondered last night if the two pieces could be cut fore and aft rather than port and starboard, to put the seam across a bulkhead. Probably would need another piece of ply, but may need one anyway for the cabin mod.
Dougster I did that with my Phantom, the plans showed a left and right piece with butt blocks. I did it using fore and aft pieces, where the centre bulkhead with cleats acted as the butt block. In my boats case the sizes of the panels were almost the same and it was just so much easier. Once they were down I just filleted the gap and taped over it.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:47 am
by MulletChoker
Dougster: We put a 6 inch wide strip of 3/8 down the centerline of the bunk as a butt block, with some gel-magic and temporary screws to hold it tight, it made a very strong seam. Once you get the edges of the bunks taped to the hull sides nothing moves. The butt block (strip) seems to act like a stiffener as you have a total of 3/4 inch thickness down the center of the bunk.

Daddy: The 40hp doesn't stick up as far as I thought it would so I'm re-thinking the cover, if we can keep the profile low enough, it might happen (later).

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:20 am
by Dougster
Phantom, I need to check my ply and nesting to see if the fore/aft thing will work. Thanks for the explanation Mullet. I'm assuming you put that butt block down the seam on while both panels were off the boat, then installed the seats all at once, rather than one side at a time? Also, I can't see a cut out for the porta potty. Did you forego that? Your pics are a great help, I can tell you that. The work is so impressive I have to talk to myself a little not to feel overwhelmed. BTW, I had your same thought looking at your last pic: that Yamaha doesn't stick up so far. I've been leaning toward the 30 hp ETEC just because of it's low profile, but now I wonder. What are you thinkin' about for power Daddy?

Movin' on down the road Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:38 am
by Daddy
MulletChoker wrote:.

Daddy: The 40hp doesn't stick up as far as I thought it would so I'm re-thinking the cover, if we can keep the profile low enough, it might happen (later).
Is your motor the long shaft or short? :?:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:06 am
by Daddy
Dougster, not sure anymore what I will use for power but am definitely leaning towards a 15 inch transom so that I can use a short shaft motor and gain 5 inches on that motor height. Doug Hylan did that on his Top Hat so I guess it should work ok. Fortunately I have you, E and MC leading the way on this. I really want to have the motor cover, I think that is one of the attractive features of the boat. Both the Handy Billy and Ninegret use a 15 inch transom.
I am also wondering about some kind of splash rail following the chine or maybe just above it to eliminate the effect that E has experienced. What do you think about a splash rail? A friend of mine who has a Harry Bryan HB did not install the splash rail designed for that boat and claims it is very "wet" without it.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:34 am
by MadRus
I just wanted to add a quick comment about some thoughts I have about this design. I too love this boat, but have my reservations about the use of a large motor and whether or not it will look like the illustrations when you finally get it closed in with a cover. My thoughts were also to go with the short shaft motor, but some folks argue that there's a greater chance of swamping it out, etc. I have an idea that might help. It's a trade off, but I'm thinking about it. The idea is to increase the curvature of the last few frames- from the rear seats to the back of the boat. If you raise the pinaccle of the top curve three inches at the center and use a 15" shaft motor, you might be able to get a lower profile cover, so it doesn't look like someone stuck a dog house on the back of the boat. However, you'd have to find a nice way to bring the side decks into the frame for that transition. The difference shouldn't be too dramatic at the gunwale, so you may be able to just dead end the decks into the frame right there and it won't look too awkward.

Just an idea. I love this design, but this feature seems to be inaccurately represented in the published drawings.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:46 pm
by Spokaloo
Id have to say if I were building now, Id probably lean toward a 15" transom, and a very shallow, very well drained splashwell from the motor transom to the F bulkhead. If this splashwell is steep enough and has good enough drainage, a monster wave can plow into it and still have the protection of a full-height F bulkhead. In my experience so far, the transom can take a 3 foot standing wave at less than a second (wake surfer's waves are like the steepest, meanest bay chop you have ever seen) with aplomb, using all that aft buoyancy to pick her up and you barely notice a little lip of splash.

On the sprayrails, Im still very torn. Its going to be hard to put them on, and the location will be a challenge. I ran the boat with 15 people in it last week.

Yes, I said it, Fifteen.. 1-5, 15 people.

She ran out at about 17mph at full throttle, but the curtain of spray was MASSIVE, and even a faint breeze put spray on the occupants. Take this with a grain of salt, because the boat was extremely overloaded, and shouldn't be used in this manner. That said, if you have 4 occupants in the bow, she will make a big enough spray to take water aft in a light breeze. This is a tolerable spray, not shippable water thats an issue, but it is about comfort.

Im hoping to get in the other boat and have someone operate Cloud Cap so I can see the boat from the exterior and make a more informed decision.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:28 pm
by Daddy
As far as the 15 inch transom goes it should be fine. Maynard Bray, technical editor of Wooden Boat magazine runs a Handy Billy with a 15 inch transom off the coast of Maine and feels it is perfectly safe. Good enough for me. I really want that low profile. What I need to do now is stop talking about it and get back to work on Tumblehome Nina. I promised myself I would finish a couple of other projects first.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:04 am
by Dougster
I'm posting from Santa Fe, here staying with friends a few days. Rain in the night, long sleeve shirt morning, little hike in the mountains scheduled. Sure is nice to leave the Texas heat wave behind for a bit. My thoughts on the motor well are similar to Daddy's in that I want the cover. I'm not so sure the doghouse in the back would look so bad, cuz I can't visualize it. We need some drawings and finally a mock up, but for now I'm not sure of the height above the deck of the various motors. Mullet's Yamaha doesn't look too bad, and the ETEC 30 is lower. Needs some research I guess.

The wet boat thing is a worry. I just don't want it. Do you get much spray in a cross wind at the helm at design cruise Eric? Maybe the easy way to do a spray rail is to bight the bullet and use temp screws and refill later. Still a challenge though I guess. I wonder if a guy could temporarily hot glue some on in places to test them? Surely that wouldn't work. I think we're kinda sitting around waiting on you to solve it Eric :wink: I figure talented people are put on this earth to be used :)

Might ponder a little on the trail this morning Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:39 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I was just out in my shop looking at Nina and playing around with the spray rail thing and have decided to put one on right at the chine. I figure that will do two things. One, solve the sharp angle filing at the chine by acting as a dam for the filler and two, to function as a spray rial. I will follow the chine all the way to the bow. I think I will use 5/4 (1 1/8") material as that will give me more gluing surface. I wish I could find a local source for clear fir, good and hard stuff. I guess temp screws and then drill and fill the holes are the way to go. Dry fit first? Maybe a fillet along the top edge?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:47 pm
by Spokaloo
Daddy, have a look at Cloud Cap's waterline. I would do the spray rails forward, but I probably wouldn't pull them all the way to the transom. Look at what the Carolina boats do, where they die out forward of amidships and you will be about right. Another option is to do them ala Renn Tolman and run them above the waterline several inches. but this might warrant putting up a post to Jacques.

I have relatives back again (two of which are here from Flour Mound, Doug) so I will see if I can pimp someone into driving the boat for me while I shoot photos (or have a photographer in the other boat...).

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:25 pm
by Daddy
Just rant across this, a bit surprised at the price

"Eastern Boats Lobster Boat Style $43,387.00
The Eastern 22' is available in three modes - lobster, center console, and sportfisherman. Boat is blue in color and prerigged with a Yamaha outboard."

http://www.easternboats.com/

also found this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sh8M0xpGUk

The spray rail only seems to be in the front quarter, I like Nina more and more :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:09 pm
by Dougster
Cool link Daddy. I'd like that helm enclosure but don't really like the look that much. Of late I'm thinking about some canvas to do that sort of think. Here you want sun protection, not weather so much. I didn't check the beam on the Eastern 22, looked kinda big, and of course no motorwell. The spray rail is clearly only in the front quarter and well above the waterline. Jacques' input on the location would sure be nice. I wish I had done it before I flipped, but it doesn't seem like too tough a deal now. I've got primer only on her so, sand, temp screw, glue, fill screw holes before I paint seems reasonable. Definately dry fit and post pic before final glue. How high to put the rail is my question. This topic and the motorwell cover are good ones for me. Wish I could photoshop E's Cloud Cap with a motorwell drawn and cabin drawn in. I may take a trip to a dealer to try and find out more about the height of the ETEC 30 profile next week. Let's keep these topics alive. BTW, it rained in the mountains from the get go. Felt like Oregon. Nice, wet hike. We just did an hour then drove down to town for lunch on the square. Posoli with green chili and sopapillas on the side with honey. Hot black coffee with it. Then took a tour of an artist' grounds (Ronald Davies) and historical house the Auduban society manages. He lived in it from the 1920's till his death in the 60's. It was originally a saw mill. Huge 12" beams, one I banged my head on nicely. Folks were shorter then, but not lessor. I'm posting now with a bourbon in hand, waiting as the wives shower to go out to dinner. Thinking about Nina, the 1920's, mountain trails, and the sometimes sweetness of life.

Pondering that rail Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:41 pm
by TomW
Hey guys there are any number of spray rails that can be fitted to the Nina. Look at the C series, the Abaco, the OB and many others.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:25 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
I need to remember the definition of rain, something about water droplets falling from the sky... would you bring a couple gallons home with you (or about 50,000 acre/feet, if you have room :D ) Hey good news, its cooling off today only 101! Have a safe trip, see you soon.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:37 pm
by Daddy
Tom and Dougster, I looked at the C series and it looks like that spray rail is right at the chine which is where I am thinking of putting mine. Seems like it would kill two birds with one stone. Rain, it has been raining off and on in Vermont for about a week. Happy to pass some on if only I could. :|
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:03 am
by TomW
Daddy yes it is a 1 1/2" x 3/4" that follows the chine all the way forwards. You can of course taper it as it as it gets towards the bow.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:28 am
by Daddy
Sounds good Tom, what wood would you recommend?
Dougster, I just finished reading "Confessions of a Boat Builder" and was interested in one situation he had with another builder who did subcontracting for him when his own shop got too busy. He had hired the guy by the hour and was disturbed by how long and expensive the project had become. The fellow explained his labor by hours worked and hours pondering what to do next and was billing at the same rate for both. Claimed he came into the shop after supper, sat in or near the boat, sometimes for hours, to ponder his next move. Sound familiar. Guess we have to add all these pondering hours to the total cost of our build. :oops:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:15 am
by gk108
Geez, that would make my 10 ft. dinghy a $100,000 boat! :oops:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:01 pm
by Daddy
The writer of that book was JD Rosborough, the father of the designer and seller of Rosborough boats. An interesting read about a builder of wooden boats in the old style. In fact if anyone wants my copy give me an address and I will send it on. Some interesting tales.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:17 pm
by TomW
Daddy the standards Southern yellow pine or Doug fir or in your neck of the woods a new one I hadn't thought about until I found a recent article on boat building wood is Larch. Then White oak. Here is the page with the description of Larch on it. http://www.glen-l.com/wood-plywood/bb-chap5d.html

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:40 pm
by Dougster
Home Depot sells SYP here in 2 by 1's, which are of course, nominally, around 1 1/2" by 3/4", which is nice. Does the bigger side glue to the hull? Surely so, but what do I know. Following the chine would sure make placement easy, but that stuff doesn't bend so easy. Maybe rip it in half and install one half at a time. How long a rail I wonder? You guy's are a big help. Now's when to do this, before I paint.

John, it was cool all day here. Mild shower this afternoon, mid 70's. Went to the market this a.m. and bought the makin's for a good home dinner with friends tonight: lamb for kabobs, little new potatoes, green beans, and a pecan pie :) Had a burrito for breakfast and to celebrate the 4th, a hot dog and lemonade for lunch. I'll be home Monday, back in the 100 degree, but Nina will be glad. I've been givin' more thought on a boat port for her. What's going on with yours?

Missing Nina but not the heat Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:46 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I would rip that diagonally and put the 3/4 inch part down against the chine. That should make it easier to bend and I think it should run the whole length of the chine which would most likely result in a splice. We cant get syp up here unless it is pressure treated.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:21 pm
by Dougster
Hmm, yeah, that would make it very much easier to bend. No 22' pieces available but if I could find a 12' that would be just one splice. I haven't got the orientation visualized yet. I think you mean the cross section would be an equilateral triangle, with 3/4" sides? I might run a length of duct tape along the chine there and take a pic to check the look and get feedback. I could post it and you and Tom and Eric can take a gander. Plenty of time for this of course.

Hopin' everyone's having a nice 4th Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:18 pm
by topwater
check out woodbikes build of the novi 23 there are some good pic's of the spray rail following the chine all the way to the bow.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:59 pm
by TomW
The 1 1/2 goes against the chine in the C17/19 and you can taper it toward the bow to allow it to bend to follow it. So from 1 1/2" to maybe 3/4" at the bow.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:10 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I was thinking more of a right triangle, that way you could take your 1 by 2, nominal 3/4 by 1 1/2 and rip a 12 foot piece and have two 12 foot pieces from each 1 by 2, the top edge would be a feather edge and the bottom would be 3/4. You would loose a bit in the ripping but if you are careful you could maintain the 2/4 on the bottom, the feather edge could just be blended into the hull. I notice that woodbike used a full 1 by 2 but I think I would rather have the top edge blend into the hull
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:19 pm
by TomW
Daddy if your going to do that you might want to use a 1x3 ripping a 1x2 like that can lose some fingers 8O if your not careful or cause a back slap that is a pretty small peice of wood to be working in a table saw. The 1x3 will be plenty flexible and again you want to taper it as you get toward the bow. On the C17/19 it is shown as just rounded or you could taper the top edge. This isn't rocket science it's just a way for a classic boat to keep the spray down.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:12 am
by gk108
Here's the spray rail profile that I used on My D15:
Image

8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:55 am
by TomW
Again becareful that you have control of that waste strip if your running this through a table saw, it can come off at some tremendous speeds if your not careful. I don't recommend anyone cutting this small a peice on a table saw unless they are very experienced with it.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:16 am
by Cracker Larry
I agree with Tom, no way I'd try to cut that on a table saw unless I started with a 6" board :help:

You could also cut kerfs on the back side to allow it to bend easily.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:52 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug I did a little research with 6 and 14 aboard last night. Run your spray rails from the bow to about the back of the consoles.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:14 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Eric, I'll look at that. Re the rip cut, I've done a lot of that already making cleats with no trouble. Didn't even realize it was dicey. I do take care not to stand where a kick back could hit me. Last week the blade hit an unnoticed staple. It pulled the staple (dang thing in the end HD puts there with the bar code) out, straightened it, and speared it into my shoulder. I pulled it right out and no harm, but it did occur to me that if it had been my eye there would have been trouble. I was wearing safety glasses and feel good about that. Really I don't like ripping on the thing and try to be careful so I'll heed yall's warnings. (yall is Texas for you all :) ) Back on the spray rail, I guess I'll stick some tape on in the general area and get feedback on it from here. And thanks for reminding me of the kerf option for bending Larry. I forget about that. Tomorrow's travel day, heading back home. Got road food and soda's packed. Last dinner out tonight, then home to Nina. Fuel tank's due in a week, and templates for the seat tops are cut. I haven't ordered fill, vent, and gas line hose and need to do that pronto.

Comin' home to Texas Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:53 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Still pondering the boatport, back to working on plan A (on the side of the house, toward the back). I did talk to McCoy's and got some ideas, so more pondering.... :doh: Hard to think when its 102 outside as I write this, SWMBO wants to go to Santa Fe (and not come back) the heat has kind of fried both of us. We'll get together once your back and we both can ponder the boatport options.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:55 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, get the fill/vent combo.
I ripped a couple of test pieces out of a 2 by 4 this afternoon and the one I liked was cut at a 28 (approx.) degree angle and was 1 1/2 x 7/8 on the 90 degree sides with a feather edge at the top (I didn't measure the hypotenuse). Looks pretty good. I am thinking that I will make some scarph joints to make the piece long enough so I can do it all in one shot. I have a nice piece of Doug Fir left over from my skeg. :)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:01 pm
by Dougster
I do plan on the vent/fill combo Daddy, but have this question. I read that with plastic tanks one must also vent the chamber the tank is in. Will that be yet another vent line run to a vent on the side deck? I have made some progress with the cabin seat tops. I finished the cabin cleats except for a few 'cuz I'm waiting on the last bulkhead to enclose the fuel tank, which has been shipped. Then I cut the port/starboard side seat tops out of cheap 1/8" HD Luan to use as templates. My poor wood working skills make that a good idea. I make a template, fiddle with it till it fits, then lay it out on the $$ply. Anyway, here's the templates.
Image

You can see I hot glued these two port/starboard sides together. I did that because I decided to go with fore/aft pieces rather than port/starboard, to avoid fooling with the butt down the seam (the fore/aft pieces butt over a bulkhead). Next I cut the now glued together template in half to create the fore/aft pieces. Then layed them out on the $$ply and cut 'em. Here they are.
Image
Now here they are dry fit.
Image
The foot well must be cut out after I fit the fuel tank, run it's lines, and fit it's closing bulkhead against it. I'm planning on the plans specified little hatch for a porta-potty so have been lookin' up their dimensions on the net and foolin' with a tape measure on Nina. Looks like the small Therford 135 fits well. This cabin work is lots of fun, I will say. In celebration and ordered another last gallon and a half of epoxy, some gel magic, and quickfair. Last orders make SWMBO's eyes roll by now of course :)

Likes this stage of the build a lot Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:27 pm
by TomW
Dougster here is the reg and how to calculate whether you need to vent the compartment your plastic tank is in: http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatb ... 620-a5.htm The amount of venting is determined elsewhere in the regs. For small tanks like ours it requires 3 or more sq. in. of both intake(facing forward) and outlet(facing aft) with the outlet intake at the low point of the compartment.

Another reason to go with an aluminum tank! :?

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:57 pm
by Dougster
Another reason to go with an aluminum tank
Oh but Tom, the heart break of crevice corrosion! What's a little permeability among friends compared to corrosion in your crevise? Like I really know enough about any of it. In honesty I did look into aluminum tanks, called a guy, but didn't like him much. Insisted I should foam an aluminum tank in. Wanted to know about the build then insisted it was wrong, boasting of boats he'd built but clearly oblivious to this composite method. Kinda guy that probably posts in the Woodenboat Bilge forum :P I thanked him for his input and lost interest in aluminum, soon finding a Moeller tank that fits. Funny about that tank. I found it listed online through an outfit called Oceanlink (very nice folks, small operation that contracts with Moeller and has it drop shipped to you). I called Moeller about the tank and they said it was "Unsellable". That turns out to mean it's a specialty tank they produce on demand for contracted sources. It was very much for sale at Oceanlink.

Thanks for that good link on venting. It's very clear and straightforward so long as you know the permeability rate for Moeller tanks. I called Moeller but they were closed for the day. BTW, Jamestown says this in their ad about Moeller tanks they sell: "These Moeller Fuel Tanks are intended for permanent installation below decks. The non-permeable construction will not leach fumes into boat interior". From what I've read, as well as a phone conversation with a tech guy at Moeller, that's simply not true. Shame on Jamestown? Ah well, thanks lot's for the link, it's great to have guys like you on the forum.

Venting on venting Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:01 am
by Cracker Larry
Dougster, I'm anal enough that I called Inca and spoke to one of their engineers, and got the permeability rate of their tanks. I'll see if I can find that for you. Then I did the math, and installed 2 vents :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:51 am
by Lucky_Louis
I requested the same permeability info from Moeller yesterday too through Tempo which built my tank and they were bought out by Moeller last year. I'll post what I find out too. I vented my tank compartment (under casting deck) with 2 x 2" round holes along the bottom, seems to work well, never a whiff of fumes in the locker or in the boat but in a cabin, it would have to be a different arrangement. There sure are some strong opinions out there regarding fuel tank material and installation :doh: made for a very interesting hour or two on the web yesterday. :lol: The one concensus among the 'pros' is that one never, never foams in an aluminum tank (corrosion nightmare) or a plastic one (no expansion space).

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:29 am
by TomW
Yep no foam Dougster. Also the inlet to the tank compartment can be in a compartment the outlet should be to the atmosphere.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:19 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, you gotta come out from wherever yer hidin', we miss you and your build.

Wonderin' if he's pnderin' Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:53 pm
by cape man
Ditto to that. What's up out there?

Jonesin' for a Texas update, Cape man.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:58 pm
by ericsil
You guys go easy on Dougster. Trying to do any epoxy work when it is well over 100F is almost impossible, even assuming you can handle the heat yourself. I dropped out of sight for three months when I couldn't get the mix to the hull fast enough to keep it from going off in the cup.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:06 pm
by Cracker Larry
Use a shallow pan, not a cup. Put the epoxy in a cooler :wink: It's 100 here too. Can't let the little things stop ya :lol:

Where there heck is Dougster :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:42 pm
by Dougster
I'm here guys, check my post in anything else. Been on vacation and forgot my password. Plus didn't have much internet access. I appreciate the check in's from everyone. I'll post pics of the new tank and progress on the pad it sits on tomorrow.

Glad to be home Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:18 pm
by Cracker Larry
There ya are 8) I bet it was cooler in Nova Scotia than Texas.

That's weird really, because my Mom just called and told me she was going to Nova Scotia with her sister next week. They're both in their 80's. She said she always wanted to go, so she was going. Go for it I said, just come back before winter 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:34 am
by Dougster
Cracker Larry wrote: just come back before winter 8)
Yeah, that might be a good idea :!: It is funny your mom is going and I'm glad to hear it. Two nights before we came home, Shirley and I ate dinner next to a couple in their 80's who where vacationing there from interior Canada. They used to spend winters in Florida in an RV. They shared a half bottle of wine, ate a full dinner and ordered coffee and desert. It was uplifting.

Says it's not dark yet Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:39 pm
by Dougster
I'd appreciate a little advice/input on my fuel tank install. It sits just forward of the helm, where there's a slight vee, so I made a pad from some 3/8" scrap for it to sit on. Here's the pad, looking at the underside:
Image

I have since put a little butt block down the edge glued seam. I am planning to glass the top of it and then lay a piece of neoprene over that, if it isn't overkill. I just assume the pad needs to be glued in, then taped. Now here's the tank:

Image

You can see the two embedded nuts on the top for a hold down bracket. There are two more on the bottom, but unfortunately on the wrong side for my. No easy way to use them as the tank is against a bulkhead with little clearance there. Me question is not so much how to tie it down but how to tie it down so it doesn't rattle around, yet still has "room to grow" since it expands what, around 10%. Also, I have to twist that fuel pickup fitting you see by 90 degrees or at least half that. I keep calling the tech guy at Moeller but haven't caught him at his desk yet. I spoke with him weeks ago regarding another tank and he said tightening 90degrees was no problem, but that tank had no jam nut and this one does, so I'm checking back in with him before I grab the wrench.

Feelin' my way along Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:54 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, am I seeing little red caps on the fill and vent holes? If not please cover them before you get crud in there :D Do we need neoprene under plastic tanks? I am puzzled by the location of your tank, the space looks so big. Is it in front of frame C? I think the hold down clips fit into that recess in the side of the tank? You must be happy to finally have a tank!!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:45 pm
by Cracker Larry
Do we need neoprene under plastic tanks?
Yes, to keep them from chafing. It it can wiggle even a little it will eventually chafe completely through.

Doug, how much room is in front of the tank? Enough room for another bulkhead? Mine was boxed in close on all 4 sides, with some expansion room all around. To keep it from wiggling at all, I shimmed the tank up on neoprene strips, then poured just a little bit of 2 part foam around each bottom corner. Maybe 1 tablespoon of each part. This expanded around the corners and up about an inch or 2, locking the tank in place but still allowing it to expand as needed. If you decide to do that, weight down the tank or the foam will push it up, and use a VERY SMALL amount of foam. We don't want to foam it in completely.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:55 pm
by TomW
Nice looking tank Dougster. Daddy neoprene not required but a good idea to keep tank from sliding around. CL used an old neopreme wet suit cut to size if I remember correctly. This tank also looks like it doesnt' have enough hold down pockets for clamps, normally there are four and on the long side not the end. So it would probably be best for Dougster to use hold down straps. Just what I have noticed in the pic.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:09 pm
by Dougster
Daddy: yeah, the red tabs are in. Tom: hold down straps? That would make things easy. What kind? It's a permanent install but I will have to include an inspection port for peace of mind. Larry: Yes there is a bulkhead snugged up in front. I've got it cut but have waited to put it in until after the tank is in. Pretty easy to jam something in front and back against the fore and aft bulkheads, but I wonder about expansion room? Straps sound easiest. I'm uneasy about the foam thing. Great having you guys on board.

Sittin' on the forum 'stead of workin' on the boat Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:29 pm
by TomW
Dougster Moeller makes the hold down straps. Have seen them at several sites will try to find them for you and post a pic. By the way 3% is the amount of expansion I have seen for all the plasitic tank installation instructions. As far as side walls the CG says 1/4" so it doesn't break free into a compartment or should the hold downs fail. But leaving that 3% can be pretty wide on a long tank a 48" tank need 49.5" for 3% length wise expansion. So thats why the straps work good it allows the length and except for where the straps are the width expansion.

Here is iBoats site they list 4 brands. I think if I were using straps I would want access so I could check them every once in a while. Yearly at least. These all look pretty stout.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:28 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Tom, I'll check the straps out some. I've saw them once but assumed they were for above board, not permanent below sole installs. I'll want an inspection hatch of some kind anyway, just to check the hose fittings, etc. yearly. I guess with the straps, while the tank can't expand where the strap is, it simply swells on either side. I have way more than enough room for 3% expansion.

Expanded at least 3% himself over the years Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:42 pm
by Daddy
Dougster wrote:
Expanded at least 3% himself over the years Dougster
Been there, done that....... :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:10 pm
by Dougster
No pics but some ponder progress. I got the Moeller tank tech (Ed McConnal) on the phone. Very nice guy and takes time to understand what you're asking. I learned this:

1) You can tighten (not loosen) the fuel line fitting a quarter turn of more with no problem. After he confirmed this I did so without incident using an wrench.

2) He liked your little bit of foam in the corners for hold down help just fine Larry, so long as done as you say a very little bit. His first recommendation is to jam something with rubber between bulkheads and tank, to allow a little give.

3) The permeability rate for my tank is 3.19 grams per day. The rate for any tank with what he calls 200 wall is .2741 grams per square foot. So you can just figure the surface area of your tank and multiply by .2741 to get the gram loss per day for any tank with 200 wall (whatever that is :) ) Then I used the fine link Tom sent me (thanks Tom) a couple pages above in this thread to calculate the area I need for venting. A little less than 1 square inch is what I figured, which would mean a better than 1" diameter hose, not the common 5/8". I'll have to ponder that a bit more. Ed did say that there can be an unpleasant odor at the vent, so it's best to take that in consideration in their placement.

Had fun pondering Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:16 pm
by gk108
which would mean a better than 1" diameter hose, not the common 5/8"
Something doesn't sound right about that. Are you confusing the 5/8" vent hose that vents the interior of the tank while filling or drawing fuel from the tank with the vent required for the air space around the tank?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:48 pm
by TomW
Yea, Dougster don't confuse the 5/8" tank vent hose with the compartment vent needed by polyester/plastic tanks. They are 2 different animals. You will need 2, lets call it 2" vents, an intake and an outlet, with the outlet picking up at the bottom of the compartment since fuel fumes sink to exhaust them. Common sense would be to put the inlet in the upper opposite corner if possible. Double check I think the minimum is 3" also. I know in one of the appendixes they show various shapes for 3" holes.

I hope this makes sense. Don't mean to make trouble.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:49 pm
by Lucky_Louis
GK nailed it, I'm sure. You're mixing up venting the tank iself (the standard 5/8" or 1/2") and venting the tank's compartment which is the 1" square inch you calc'd. I like the way CL did his - two vents, one pointing forward to draw in fresh air and one pointing back to expel any vapours so I did mine that way too. If you used a 1" inlet and a one inch outlet, you should be fine and you can plumb the outlet to wherever you want it. Remember inlet high and outlet low.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:43 pm
by Cracker Larry
Yeah, what they said :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:36 pm
by Dougster
Nah, I'm not confused, that's what I meant. The reason I said 5/8" is that's what fits the commonly available vent hardware Bateau and everyone sells. Sure, you use them to vent the tank, but they would be nice to vent the compartment too. Trouble is 5/8" isn't big enough. I want to vent via two hoses up to the side decks. Facing the supply forward would be nice but wouldn't that pick up spray and introduce water into the compartment? I haven't checked yet on fitting for a 1" hose to go through deck, but surely there are some. I was thinking get the fill/vent combo for the tank, then two vent fittings for the supply and exhaust compartment vent hoses. Maybe one on port and one on starboard. It would be easier to just vent the compartment without hoses right through the two consoles, since it's sitting right in front of them. But I worry about the stinky factor. Dunny, I mean it's an open cockpit so maybe it wouldn't be so noticeable. Also, I could leave the inspection hatch for the compartment left open to ventilate when the boat's sitting in the tailer (which is most of the time).

Making things hard Dougster :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:13 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
I spent a few years in the plastics business (mostly injection molding), the 200 wall that Moeller refers to is probably 200/1000 (.200" or 1/5") wall thickness. Glad you're back, Nova Scotia sure looks like a neat place.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:52 pm
by gk108
Ah! I see! :oops:
That would be a clean and easy way to solve the problem. If you can come up with a way to hold a hose to the underside of the deck, you could use a couple of these little clamshell vents.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:57 am
by Spokaloo
Congrats on 100 pages Doug.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:05 am
by TomW
Dougster Congrats also on your 100th page! :D Now I'll spoil your morning coffee. Like I said in my earlier post I thought the minimum vent size needed to be 3", well here is the rule: http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatb ... -630-e.htm and http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatb ... -630-f.htm They were the last 2 pages of the section. When I was doing my reseaarch early last year on tanks the reason given for this is that this ensures an adequate flow of air independent of how many turns may be in the vent lines and since it is not forced air that there is a better chance of the incoming vent catching a breeze and forcing some air into the compartment when the boat is at rest.

Barer of bad news, Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:44 am
by Dougster
Oops, didn't read that last page :oops: Luckily I was just having tea this morning so it's ok :) Thanks for the tip Tom,and shame on me. I believe three square inches would require a two inch hose. Maybe still doable. Easier is the fall back to venting through both consoles. There is the issue of the odor thing, and my wife has a nose like a bloodhound. Needs a little more ponder. Another interesting thing is several pages earlier in your link they say if the permeability rate is less than 1.2 grams of fuel loss in 24 hours per cubic foot no venting is required. My calculations are: 3.19 grams fuel loss per 24 hrs. divided by 5.81 cubic feet of compartment space = .55 grams loss per 24 hrs. Which is way below the 1.2 requirement for venting. So if I read it right, I'm not really required to vent the compartment. 'Course I'm not REQUIRED to do a lot of things I choose to do anyway, like letting my physician do that nasty thing to me each year :lol: Anyway, I'm still pondering and am interested in your thoughts.

Eric---thanks for noticing the 100 pages. Dang, you build your Nina in 30 minutes and three yrs. later I'm still getting epoxy on my clothes! I figure either you're a force or nature or...I'm not :oops: I can't remember, BTW, did you vent your compartment? I saw your post re Iceland and know nothing of the area but it sure seems like a neat place to see on first blush. 'Course, you got boats to build.

Speaking of boats to build, you got one too John. What's doing with you? Let's hook up for a gam, it's been awhile. Come on over and say hi to Nina or I'll come check out your boat port thing. Pick a day.

In the slow lane with the vent thing Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:15 am
by Dougster
Hey GK, I just checked out those clamshell vents. Thanks for the link, adds to the ponder. I still may go that way.

Enjoying the ride Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:03 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, Im ventless. I get a slight odor in the footwell on rare occasion if she has been sitting in 100+ temps and I leave the center cushion on. When the footwell isn't covered, it never gets an odor. There are 2 holes that run to the compartment for the two hoses running from the tank to the side of the boat, so it does get a little ventilation from the port side cabinet.

No force of nature here, just blessed with a good work schedule. Keep in mind I work an average of 46 hrs a week, with an average of 5 days off per week. Time I have, money I dont...

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:24 pm
by cape man
I went through the regs myself and here's where I think we're screwing up... The formula for venting the fuel tank compartment will give you a minimum size for passive ventilation that may be less than 3" square (may be zero as in Dougster's case). The 3" minimum is for the engine compartment, not the fuel compartment.
FEDERAL LAW

183.620 - Natural ventilation system

(a) Except for compartments open to the atmosphere, a natural ventilation system that meets the requirements of Sec. 183.630 must be provided for each compartment in a boat that:

(1) Contains a permanently installed gasoline engine;
I have two 1" holes in the front of my fuel compartment - one high one low - and will cover with clam shells. My calcs came up with a rate below the required level as well, but already had the holes drilled. Was going to make them bigger till I read that the 3" is for the engine compartment, which my outboard doesn't have... :roll:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:02 pm
by Cracker Larry
Read down to item 5, same rule...
183.620 Natural ventilation system.
(a) Except for compartments open to the atmosphere, a natural ventilation system that meets the requirements of ยง183.630 must be provided for each compartment in a boat that:

(1) Contains a permanently installed gasoline engine;

(2) Has openings between it and a compartment that requires ventilation, where the aggregate area of those openings exceeds 2 percent of the area between the compartments, except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section;

(3) Contains a permanently installed fuel tank and an electrical component that is not ignition protected in accordance with ยง183.410(a);

(4) Contains a fuel tank that vents into that compartment; or

(5) Contains a non-metallic fuel tank:

(i) With an aggregate permeability rate exceeding 1.2 grams of fuel loss in 24 hours per cubic foot of net compartment volume, or

(ii) If the net compartment volume is less than one cubic foot, having a permeability rate exceeding 1.2 grams of fuel loss in 24 hours

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:29 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Hope to start on the boat port later this month, still haven't decided which side a want to build it on (actually, back or side). We are leaving Sunday on vacation for a week (to escape this pizza oven we're in right now) BTW, you're a bad influence, "Do you know they way to Santa Fe?". How about Lubbock, Clovis, Encino and turn right on 285. :D We'll get together when I get back.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:56 pm
by TomW
That "Contains a non-metallic fuel tank" gets you every time.

Dougster, better safe than sorry in my opinion here. Your correct in that you could get away with out it but why take a chance. Here are the dimensions from that sites table of 3 sq in. http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatb ... NT-F15.gif

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:44 am
by cape man
Dougster et al,

Thanks for the info. Guess I need to make my holes bigger (2" diameter) and find some covers.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:08 am
by Dougster
John, I go out I 10 to Ft Stockton, then turn right on 285. If you go that way, you hit Pecos an hour or so after Ft Stockton. At about the first or second red light in Pecos is a service station on your right and behind it is place that sells terrific tamales, red and green. They have 'em frozen on hand by the dozen and fit right into a cooler :wink: If it's hot in Santa Fe in the afternoon head up to those cool mountains, 20 minutes up toward the ski basin. Lemme know when you get back.

Tom---I do intend to vent. Just a 2" hose gives me 3 square inches plus, but I have yet to find suitable fitting. Not even a simple flange yet, let alone a topside deck fitting like a clamshell vent that fits. The holy grail would be one of those fuel vents, but I can only find 5/8". May have to jury rig something. Since Eric reports few problems with smell ('course he built the open bow model) I may go with venting to the back of the port and starboard consoles. Heck a drill ten seconds would do that really. The back face lower corner of both consoles abut the fuel tank compartment, so could just drill there and let it vent naturally from there through the drawer or whatever in the console. If the wife complains of smell, maybe use one of these butterfly vents to cut it off as needed http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?pa ... &id=845203 Dunno yet, need to check around for fitting more.

Doin' these 100 degree Texas days Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:33 am
by Daddy
Dougster, the butterfly vent would probably not be a good choice. It really is a bit of a hassle to find a way to vent it and be within the law. A vent that can be closed probably isn't approved for this application. Maybe the designer would have some suggestions. :help: My buddy who built a Handy Billy has two 6 gallon above deck tanks under the wide open seats. No vents, no hassle. Makes me think....
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:20 am
by Dougster
Hey Cape Man, lemme know if you find anything, I'll do the same. Daddy---it's no problem with the regs cuz they say it doesn't have to be vented. The 17 gallon tank I use has less than half the gram per day per cubic foot permeability loss than the regs cut off of 1.2. So with the vents closed we're within the guidelines and with them open we're up on that nice high road.

Likes that high ground when he can get it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:46 am
by Cracker Larry
it's no problem with the regs cuz they say it doesn't have to be vented. The 17 gallon tank I use has less than half the gram per day per cubic foot permeability loss than the regs cut off of 1.2.
Dougster, I hate to keep beating this horse but I think you're making an error :doh:
My calculations are: 3.19 grams fuel loss per 24 hrs. divided by 5.81 cubic feet of compartment space = .55 grams loss per 24 hrs. Which is way below the 1.2 requirement for venting
It's only the free empty space in the compartment that counts, not the space occupied by the tank. I think your 5.8 is the entire compartment size? Free space is probably not more than 1 or 2 CF. The key word here is "Net" volume. Gross volume doesn't count.
LESS THAN ONE CUBIC FOOT

If a fuel tank compartmentโ€™s net volume is less than one cubic foot, it is required to have natural ventilation if the fuel tankโ€™s permeability rate is more than 1.2 grams total fuel loss in 24 hours.

ONE OR MORE CUBIC FEET

A fuel tank compartment with a net volume of one or more cubic feet is required to have natural ventilation if the fuel tankโ€™s permeability rate is more than 1.2 grams of fuel loss per each cubic foot of net compartment volume in a 24 hour period.
Stick with the high ground :wink: Please :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:37 am
by Dougster
Wow, I never realized they meant free empty space! That would be completely different (like, that's 2.27ft cubed) Free empty space makes sense, of course. Well, I keep learning. When I figure it that way I need close to 4" 8O Now, if I cut some vent holes in a side bulkhead, that will then include all that space and I'd be even bigger than my original calcs, cuz that area is just storage. Don't much think I'll do that though. Thanks a lot for the input Larry, and don't worry, the horse ain't dead yet :)

Got to ponder down yonder Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:04 pm
by Spokaloo
If my boat ever explodes, Ill let you guys know...

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:40 pm
by Daddy
Spokaloo wrote:If my boat ever explodes, Ill let you guys know...

E
Larry, would you conduct the seance? :D

Dougster, could you run some kind of hose system like this
http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatb ... NT-F11.gif
up through the gunnels?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:18 pm
by Dougster
Daddy---that looks fine except for having to run a 3" hose down the length of the gunnel. Could though. There's lot's of ways to vent it, I just can't find any fittings for the deck I like yet. They gotta have some protection from rain/spray getting in and down to the tank compartment. Right not I lean to simple 3"vents on the sides of the two consoles, if there's room. I dunno about the starboard console. The electric, throttle, and steering cables are all there so there me be no room for a dang 3" hose crammed in to reach the vent. I'll check through Mullet's gallery to look at the space. I don't recall him venting. Maybe he'll chime in. I'm not to concerned about. I'll do some kinda vent and that'll good 'nuff, seeing that Eric hasn't blown up yet. Of course, he's a force of nature and normal physics don't apply :)

Today I put the forward bulkhead for the fuel tank compartment in. Here's the pad glued in:
Image

Then I dry fit the bulkhead.
Image

After that I glued it in with gel magic. Here's what waits for me tomorrow:

Image

Oops, hit submit instead of Preview. Anyway. There I am for now. I'll look more into vent fittings tomorrow.

Still foolin' with the dang fuel tank Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:47 pm
by Daddy
Hey Dougster, seems like no end to it but you will find a way. I dont think Mullet vented his, I dont remember seeing any.
http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage ... 035&pos=66
Interesting.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:37 pm
by MulletChoker
We didn't vent the compartment. There's an access hatch just above the tank fittings that would vent but there is so little extra space in the compartment we didn't see a need for a dedicated vent.

We are doing some odds and ends; finishing hatches, installing flagstaff etc.
The Yamah began running rough at low speed, mechanic found varnish on the jets..? Not right for an engine with less than 10 hours, we'll be speaking with Yamaha about this. We should be back in the water this weekend.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:06 pm
by Dougster
Hey Mullet, thanks for chiming in. Before I forget please post some more pics of your build's cabin top. I'd love to see it with the canvas on. I noticed your hatches and figured that was how you vented it. Are the hatches just gravity fit? Any rubber gasket or some such to reduce water getting in? Of maybe no worries, it's in the covered cabin? Seems to me, with the hatch off the compartment's vented, so leave it that way on the trailer and just put the hatch back on when you use the boat. Kinda like leaving the drain plug out on the trailer and installing it just before you back down. Of course I've never forgotten to install a drain plug and back the boat down, set the emergency brake climbed in the boat, fired her up, backed off the trailer, and then kinda wondered why my feet were wet. No, no, I've never done that...Well, anyway, thanks a lot for your gallery pics, they are helping me quite a bit. Right now I'm trying to figure out how wide to make the foot well. The length is specified in the plans, but I can't see where the plans are. Any of you guys (Daddy, Eric, Mullet) mind telling me your footwell width? Today's progress so far was 2 hours to fillet and tape the fuel tank compartment and enclosing bulkhead. I also glassed the top of the tank pad. I try to at least fuss with something on her everyday.

Thinks Nina likes the attention Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:52 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I am still wrong side up so havent got that far, you will be in the water before I am. Today I gave her a final (ha ha ha) sanding before primer. I think if you measure the bunk tops you will see how wide the foot well will be but I think E can give you a better answer. I am not going to put my gas tank where you did so my foot well will begin at the cabin bulkhead. I will put a bridge deck between the consoles to keep cockpit water out of the footwell.
I used a lot of 60 grit today.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:42 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug my cutout is per plans on the fwd seat tops. I can measure it if you wish, but I just cut to the dimensions listed for the tops and let the gap between the two panels (where the butt block gets glued underneath) fall where it may. Then I faired across the gap with filler.

If you are really concerned I will put a tape across it.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:13 pm
by Dougster
Eric, don't bother yet. I need to check the plans again. I couldn't find the measurement for some reason. I saw the length specified but not the width (the depth of the cut into the panels). Lemme look again, if I can't find it tomorrow I'll holler Uncle.

Gonna take another gander Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:57 pm
by cape man
Dougster,

I'm looking at this...
http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,19665.htm

Wanting to smell fumes, but not hear the kaboom, Cape Man...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:36 am
by Cracker Larry
Spokaloo wrote:
If my boat ever explodes, Ill let you guys know...

E
Larry, would you conduct the seance?
Nope, not me. I don't mess with haints, let sleeping spirits be is my motto :help:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:57 pm
by Daddy
Cracker Larry wrote:
Spokaloo wrote:
If my boat ever explodes, Ill let you guys know...

E
Larry, would you conduct the seance?
Nope, not me. I don't mess with haints, let sleeping spirits be is my motto :help:
Probably have to get Pastor Bob to do an exorcism :D E will never leave CLOUD CAP

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:50 pm
by Dougster
I've go myself confused a bit on hose size for the tank. Let's see, 1 1/2" for the fill. I'm pretty sure that's right as I measured the connection at the tank. The tank vent (not the compartment vent) looks like 5/8" to me. So I have been assuming all along, for some reason that the fuel line would also 5/8". Dunno why I assumed that. I see there are other sizes and read just now where Larry referred to his 3/8" fuel line. What's standard?

Got to where I'm no longer surprised at my ignorance Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:59 pm
by Cracker Larry
3/8 is standard for the fuel line, 5/8 vent, 1 1/2 fill :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:12 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Larry, I'm glad I thought to check before I ordered! The 3/8" is a little cheaper than the 5/8", so that's a good thing. I'm getting closer but still not there with the whole tank project. I kinda "undermeasured" and put the enclosing bulkhead in a bit tight. There's 3/4" space and the 3% expansion for my tank in that dimension needs 1/2". Didn't leave my self much to work with that way! The width has plenty of room. It seems like a challenge to 1) hold the tank down securely and 2) give it "room to grow" at the same time. I found some rubber pipe insulation to help wedge in the narrow areas. We'll see. Also I started back to work today, but just 4 days a week so there's time for Nina.

Learning as I go Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:43 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, put my spray rails on today. I cut them out of an old piece of fir that I got at the same time I got my skeg. The dimensions are in the form of a trapezoid, one and 3/16 at the base, one and 3/16 high and 5/8ths at the top. I put a drywall screw with a plywood washer at the bow, held my breath and bent all 11 feet around following the chine and put another screw and washer at the aft end. Did that on both sides. The rail comes almost to the section of the chine that I had squared up and now I have to decide how to bridge the gap,, maybe cut more rail, maybe square up the gap??? The rail is not glued on, just dry fitted, maybe tomorrow. :D When I get it glued on I will take pics and post to my blog.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:58 pm
by Dougster
OK, I'm calling "Uncle". Eric I can't find that measurement for the footwell. I see the panel on the expanded plates E 234/6 page of the plans. The fore/aft length is 23 7/8", but I can't see a figure for the other dimension. So the foot well is basically two feet long (fore and aft) but how wide? Seems like it wouldn't go all the way to the stringer walls, so there's an overhang I guess? It irritates me that I can't figure it out. Maybe just supposed to do what fits you? Dunno. Anyway, that's good news on the stringer Daddy and I look forward to pics. I'm still foolin' with that dang fuel tank. This afternoon I took some Home Depot metal pieces in and showed the local welder what I want for one hold down strap. Maybe it'll work. I'll post pics to show what I'm doing when I get that piece welded. It's all kinda overkill I guess but I've gotten stubborn with it. Also I ordered fuel hoses today from Bateau and some other place I found that had Trident A2 rated 1.5" fill hose. They're quite proud of it at $8 a foot so I'm sure Nina will love it.
Next I'm ordering the porta potty so I can make sure of the dimensions.

Dealin' with the priorities Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:01 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Now I get it, you're supposed to build the boat around the porta potty! :wink: Pushed our trip back a week, leave on the 16th and back on the 23rd. SWMBO had some things to take care of at work this week that couldn't wait. Then I can finally start on the boatport! I'll post on my C17 thread with more on the boatport. Maybe we can get together after the 23rd.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:07 am
by Spokaloo
Doug, I think I must have used drawing D234/5, frame B, cutout width for my footwell. Shows me 210mm on each side of CL. Looking at another drawing it appears that it would be just a bit wider (20mm each side) in order to make the porta potti hatch a little bit narrower than the footwell opening for some reason.

Thats what my plans say, and I'd estimate my footwell is 420mm wide due to the drawings. Seems to be very comfortable at that width.

Best of luck!

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:31 am
by Dougster
Your the man Eric, thanks for going to the trouble of looking back at the plans. I see it now. It's interesting you used metric. Seems better to me but old dogs struggle. Anyway, 210 mm on your plan, 8.25" on mine. I had noticed the figure that implies the cut out is slightly wider than the potty lid. BTW, did you put that lid and porta potty in? I checked your blog out yesterday a bit and noticed what I thought was that little 210mm wide notch cut in frame B. Sure wish I could climb around your Cloud Cap or Mullet's to visualize things better, though it becomes clearer as I go.

John---you're exactly right, "building the boat around the porta potty". I want the pad it sits on to fit, etc. so I just ordered the darn thing. If our septic ever goes out, there'll be a plan B at our house :lol:

Coverin' the bases I can see Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:08 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, I did the cutout, then SWMBO and I talked about what the boat is going to do, where we use it, etc. We both decided that putting in the cutout and potty were just extra issues that weren't warranted. The potty would never be used by her because there was no cabin coverage or privacy, and often the need to use facilities doesn't outstretch the trip from wherever we are to either a friends house or a public park where we boat. Once the seat tops were in, I built a small filler piece and plugged that hole in B.

You can come up to our place anytime, take her out for a cruise, pick at the seams, do whatever you want to the boat. Name your day...

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:01 pm
by Dougster
Hey Eric, who knows, maybe someday I'll get up that way. I do love that area and go to Vancouver Island every 2 or 3 years where my brother-in-law has a house. I wouldn't go with the porta potty without the cabin either. With the cabin, it's a big plus feature for my wife so it's going in. I'm gonna start on the consoles soon. Start with a mock up using left over 1/8" luan scrap. Good thing because when I look at the nesting diagram, danged if I see the console cut outs :doh: Jacques must of figured since lots of folks customize them he wouldn't bother? Trouble is, I'll be short of ply. Sure don't want to make a run to Houston (4 hrs) for one or two pieces. Austin may have some though (1 1/2 hrs). When you gonna start another big project?

Says it's still too dang hot down in Texas

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:15 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, where did you find 1/8 inch luan? We just can't get it up here. I have saved some 4 by 8 sheets of good cardboard to use for some mock ups. I am pretty sure that I am going the porta potti route too for the same reasons. Gotta keep SWMBO happy. We plan to do some over nights so it will really be a plus. I glued on the spray rails a few minutes ago but it is raining right now and I need to stand out in the driveway to get some perspective on the rails so the pics will have to wait til tomorrow. :x
Daddy
PS, I don't miss the Texas heat, spent more time than I wanted to at Ft. Hood back in the early 50s

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:41 pm
by Dougster
Daddy---Home Depot has it here. They don't store it well and it is usually quite warped, but that makes little difference as the stuff is so flexible(it's about 1/8" thick). Seems like I paid $10 or $11 dollars a sheet and bought 6 of 'em. I reuse the big pieces for smaller pieces.
I sure wish I already had a spray rail glued on. I have two coats of S3 primer on the hull so I suppose if I end up putting the rail on I'll just sand it off in that area? That wouldn't be any significant trouble. Getting a piece to make the bend and not need screws every foot or so would be important I guess. I sure hate putting screw holes in the hull, but that's silly---I put holes with dowels every foot or two for the rubrail, and that worked fine. Well, I'm at work tomorrow, but off the next day and will drop by the welder's place to check on my little tank clamp thing. Did about 45 minutes worth of sanding today in the aft port and starboard tanks along side the motor well. I'm thinking of putting a battery in each one.

Says there's a million details Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:00 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I needed only three screws on each 11 foot rail because of the curve it hugs pretty tight. That was a problem because I knew it would want to press all of the nice catsup out of the joint, I pondered and then I too my scraper and used the corner of it to scrape 1/16 in. grooves down the length of the underside of the rail, about six grooves wide, not too careful, not too precise but enough to give the glue a place to go. I assembled it and there was almost no squeeze out, then I ran a fillet down the length of the rail, bottom side, topside will have to wait for the flip. Looks good, proof will be when I take the screws out. Sun is out, I will take pics.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:49 pm
by Spokaloo
Another project Doug? You think I could stand to be without a project?

Apparently someone hasn't been looking at the repair threads...

Image

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:53 pm
by Dougster
Well, shut my mouth, aren't you the bad boy! Me too, for not checking the repair thread much. I'll have to read up on that. If I get it right, that is a naughty girl with no Powderhorn! Very nice work space too. I'll darn sure check it out. And I figured you were spending your time off with TV, milk, and cookies :)

Might have know better Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:57 am
by Spokaloo
Idle hands, Douggler. Adding self bailing decks, a cabin, tankage for 200 miles of range, fishwells, seating for 4, sleeping for 2, its gonna be fun.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:12 pm
by Dougster
Time for an update and a little advice. The cabin bulkheads, pads for the the tank and porta potty, and most of the cleats are all in:

Image

I've started sanding a bit in the foot well is why that tape looks white. The grey tinted epoxy section is the fuel tank compartment. I made no effort to fill the weave there, just rolled on a last coat. Now, here's the fitting for the fuel tank to help hold it down I had the welder make. He just charged me $10 :)
Image
Here how it fits:
Image

I'll run a bar of something over the top of the fitting there to help hold the tank down. Some rubber will be pushed around tightly in other areas as well to hold it but allow a half inch or so of expansion. Now, regarding that fitting. It's steel and I was thinking maybe I should paint it or coat it with epoxy to slow the rust thing down? I have some black paint for metal fence posts and such that I could throw on it.

Second is I just got the neoprene kit from Bateau. Do folks glue the strips down with epoxy or just lay 'em there and set the tank on 'em? Also, I wonder what the typical spacing is. The neoprene tape is 2" wide. Leave 1" or so between strips or maybe more? All these questions seem like piddling things I know. Oh yeah, and I got my hose in. Boy that 2" fill is stiff! Glad I paid attention to the whole bend radius thing.

I was back at work this week but managed to spend an hour each evening taping bulkheads and such. This continues to be a very fun part of the build for me. Today I've gone back to ponder mode a bit. Thoughts about the hatch for the porta potty, what kind of hinges to use, hatches for the seats in the cabin, how to, etc. I did mix a little epoxy and put in the last tape though. Things keep going good like this, I might just order me another last gallon in a few weeks :)

Says praise the Lord and pass the epoxy Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:44 pm
by Cracker Larry
Looking good Dougster, and I'm needing some more epoxy myself. Almost got that shed floor covered :lol: 5200 will work good on the strips. The spacing isn't critical.

Except I'm a little worried bout this metal strap
It's steel and I was thinking maybe I should paint it or coat it with epoxy to slow the rust thing down?
If it's mild steel, I really wouldn't use it. If any salt water ever gets on it, well, it won't last a year in a compartment like that before it crumbles. :( Paint won't help it. Could you have another made in stainless or aluminum?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:33 pm
by TomW
Dougster looking good, agree with Larry 5200 the neoprene, and what he said on the strap. It looks good though should hold that tank down good. Have you figured out the ventilation?

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:59 pm
by Dougster
"Almost got that shed floor covered "

Now that did bring a laugh :D My shop floor ain't what she used to be, or me either. Maybe a lot of that's going around. Re the strap, I'm proud for thinkin' enough about it to ask. Next stop is back to the welder. Nice guy, only welder in town (pop 1500 but lotta surrounding folks). We got to talking and turns out he helped a local friend build an aluminum boat years ago. So I figure yeah, he can do it in aluminum or stainless. It's just a time thing, but I'm this far, so what's another mile. Thanks for the feedback Larry. Tom, I am for sure venting the compartment. It vents easily into the two consoles so I'll do that. The only question is whether to send a hose up from the bottom side of the consoles to the deck, or just stop at the bottom of the console. But there will be a 2" diameter vent in each console. Oh, yeah, and I'm following your thread Tom. Don't let all those folks rush you. She's built when she's built. Some days I wish everyone could build a boat. But those are good days. Others are selfish, and I don't want the waters even more crowded. Good is hard.

Doin' what he can Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:42 pm
by cape man
As I understand, vent it directly out the bottom as the fumes want to "sink".

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:07 am
by TomW
Your vent plan sounds good. Stop the fresh air hose at the top of the fuel tank compartment and the return an 1" or so from the bottom and I'd keep both of them about 6" off the deck. That way by the time any bad smell if there are any reach any ones nose they will be so dissipated no one will smell them.

If I'm lucky I'll get the transom cut out this weekend and glued. It's slightly different from plans. So pictures will be forth coming again.

I just enjoy watching you work on your boat and watching it come together. :D

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:02 am
by Dougster
I talked to the welder this morning. He doesn't have any stainless or aluminum bar around but says he'll look this week for a piece. He also wondered why I couldn't just galvanize it with that paint on stuff the box stores sell. Actually, most of the piece is galvanized, but the ends he welded on are not. What do folks think of that galvanized do it yourself stuff?

Also, I have an old unopened tube of 4200, but not 5200 on hand. Think that's sticky enough for gluing down the neoprene strips? And is an inch or two between strips ok? Seems like I'm all questions. I'm just about there on this tank install thing though, and might as well go the extra mile. Think I'll go sand the bow compartments and footwell for a bit now. Uugh.

Doin' what needs doin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:23 am
by ks8
Without the aid of fasteners holding down a *bedded* piece of hardware, 4200 will let go, without much effort. *When* is a good question. 5200 is meant to be much more permanent. I'm not sure how well 5200 will stick to neoprene, but 5200 sure is aggressive stuff. I'd say to try it on scrap, but as soon as you open the tube, the contents start curing. If possible, squeeze out the test sample in a very dry air conditioned room and then cap the tube immediately with no gap of air at the top of the tube, and still, no telling how long that tube will still be useful. Moisture triggers the cure process. With 4200 Fast Cure, I got about a week's work of tube life once it was opened. But 4200 would not be the way to go. 5200, if it sticks, won't come off or let go, at least not easily. But as I said, the neoprene is an unknown to me. Hope that helps. Enjoy working out the innards. Another milestone. :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:53 pm
by TomW
Dougster David Pascoe in his article on "How to Install an Aluminum Fuel Tank" glues 4" neoprene strips down with 5200 then glues the tank to the neoprene strips. Here's the article for reference, most of it won't apply naturally but interesting none the same for your next boat :P http://www.yachtsurvey.com/fueltank.htm In your instance I would definately put the strips down so the bottom of the tank is well supported probably 3-4 I forget the width of your tank right now.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:22 pm
by cape man
Dougster,

I just used the cold galvanizing spray to redo my trailer. It goes on really easy and reports are that it is almost as good as hot dip galvanizing, but since it just went on my trailer I can't attest to it's performance. Ask me in a year. 8O 8O

So in my humble opinion, here's the dilema you are in... On the one hand, that fuel tank compartment should remain relatively dry once you seal everything up, so a galvanized strap that has been further treated with cold galvanizing spray should hold up for many, many years. However, - and here's the part that would make me pause and look for a piece of stainless or heavy stock alluminun - once you seal that compartment up you don't ever want to have to go back in there to fix a $10 piece of metal that failed. I hope to NEVER have to cut the deck to remove or repair my tank installation. I have an access hatch that allows me to get to the fuel gauge sending unit and the fill and vent hoses, but there's no way to get to the metal brackets that hold it in without breaking out the saw.

5200 sticks to everything I have ever put it on, and it should hold the neoprene as well. I would not use the 4200, as it is designed to remain somewhat pliable over time - not a characteristic you want down there.

Given both of the above I would stop the press long enough to get the right products in there before you seal that baby in for life. This may be an unecessary pause in your build, but if it were me I would want the total piece of mind that I did it the best way possible from the beginning. Again, this is one area of the build where a later problem would just plain suck.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:55 pm
by Dougster
Tom, CapeMan, my thoughts are the same as yours and my tank install is exactly as you described. Once installed there's no way to get to that little bracket without breaking out the saw and really going downtown. I'll get some 5200 and glue the neoprene down. I hadn't thought of then gluing the tank on top of the neoprene though. Then you'd play hell if you ever had to pull the tank. I got lottsa other things to work on, so it's no real hold up getting the right stuff together. I did 45" worth of sanding in those front compartments today, then cut two cleats to fit and coated their bottom edge with epoxy. Probably glue 'em in tomorrow.

Seein' the devil in the details Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:41 pm
by cape man
If you clamp it down securely you shouldn't need to glue the tank itself.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:46 pm
by TomW
Yep no need for glue. I think that is a for them big tanks. :lol: Although it would be another thing to keep it from moving.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:54 pm
by Cracker Larry
Yep, what they all said :lol: A galvanized trailer gets washed off with fresh water regularly, has constant ventillation, and is visually inspected. You don't want to have to cut that tank out for many years. Lowes and Home Depot sell aluminum flat bar that would be much better than mild steel.

5200 will almost glue grease to ice cubes :wink: 4200 is more of a caulk.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:18 pm
by peter-curacao
Cracker Larry wrote:5200 will almost glue grease to ice cubes :wink: 4200 is more of a caulk.
Sorry for the hijack Dougster but can somebody place some pics of those products?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:52 pm
by cape man
Peter,

Google "3M 5200"

Not very exciting pictures...It comes in small tubes or caulking gun inserts. The 5200 cures hard, but not structural like epoxy... the 4200 just doesn't get hard. Both are VERY sticky!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:59 pm
by peter-curacao
cape man wrote:Peter,

Google "3M 5200"

Not very exciting pictures...It comes in small tubes or caulking gun inserts. The 5200 cures hard, but not structural like epoxy... the 4200 just doesn't get hard. Both are VERY sticky!
OK thanks cape man, didn't know it was 3M only 5200 didn't work :wink:
3MWebsite claims it's structural :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:43 pm
by ks8
Now see... I thought you wanted pictures of grease and ice cubes... :P

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:16 pm
by cape man
3MWebsite claims it's structural
It is not as structural as epoxy.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:37 pm
by Cracker Larry
It is not as structural as epoxy.
Maybe not, but it's structural. Once I lifted a 35 Bertram 4 feet in the air with a travel lift chained to a fighting chair. The only thing holding the chair was 5200 on the base plate. 10 tons of boat 8O I was trying to remove the chair to replace it. Pretty strong stuff! Set her back down and cut it off with a wire :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:45 am
by Dougster
"almost glue grease to ice cubes" :D

That's probably a keeper line. Reminds me of "that boy can tear up a crow bar in a sand box" for some reason. I can see you crankin' that boat up Larry, determined to get it off. Now were you standing in the boat while you cranked? That would explain why you only went 4 feet :lol: I hear you Crackers are crafty.

Not much boat buildin' for me today. I'm going with a friend to Luckenbach to a fund raiser for head trauma vets. The deal is to break the Guinness record on number of guitars played together at one time. They're shooting for over 1400 I think 8O We all play two songs together at 2:00 pm: This Land is Your Land and, of course, Luckenbach Texas. I'm takin' on old $40 flea market beater of a guitar to face the heat. We get there a 9:00 to register and start cookin' in the heat. Bring a cooler and folding chair thing. Sure is gonna be hot but what a cool thing and to a good cause.

Goin' to Luckenbach Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:31 am
by cape man
Good on you Dougster! Fantastic cause.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:13 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, you da man, BTW, by now you have read your new copy of WB mag. and seen the Bolger boats in Launchings. Check out the one built by Mike Kiefer on the bottom of page 85 or 87 (not sure now). I called Mike and got some more details on the boat. I wondered about the scale and he said the boat was 19 feet long, add a couple of more feet for the motor enclosure on Nina and have some idea what it would look like.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:39 pm
by Daddy
Amazing, saw your guitar crowd on the news tonight!!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:31 am
by TomW
Dougster great event and wonderful charity. Did you break the record? :D

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:13 am
by ThistleDewDayDreamin
Grease to ice cubes" ?? !! ?? "that boy can tear up a crow bar in a sand box"
There really ought to be an official quotable quote thread for this forum !! :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:38 pm
by Dougster
Yep, I believe we officially beat the record:
http://www.austin360.com/blogs/content/ ... recor.html
I got there at 9:00 am. Lawn chairs and shade trees. Bottled water and Shiner Boch. Also one Lone Star, just for general principles. Noodled on the guitar and jawed all day. Bar-B-Que plate for lunch (pinto beans, sausage, and, yeah Larry, brisket). No pulled pork, but this is Texas. At two o'clock I stood up on my hind legs and played "Lukenbach Texas" and "This Land is Your Land" with 1858 other folks, lead by Gary Nunn and Jimmy LaFave. Hot as it was, it was just very cool.

I worked today but got into a hardware store and found an 2" piece of aluminum bar stock to re-do that tank fitting. All it needs is holes drilled, a 90 degree bend, and cut to length, so maybe I can do it without bothering the welder. Daddy, I did see and admired Mike Kefler's boat in WB, but didn't relate it to Nina. Looking at it now I sure like that open cabin top for getting out of the sun. You got some kind of ideas like that?

Helped break a record Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:37 pm
by Daddy
Congrats Dougster, yes I am thinking something like that for my Nina. He was an interesting and helpful fellow to talk with too. I told him I wanted to pick his brain about the boat and he was very forthcoming with details. He built that roof strong enough to stand on but I plan to go a whole lot lighter, 1/4 inch and some very light frames, the windshiled being one. He said he mocked it all up out of cheap ply (maybe I already said that) which seems like a good idea that has been done by others on this forum. I plan to prime tomorrow and flip on Thursday. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:20 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Congrats on Luckenbach, like they say "everything is bigger in Texas" (except the on ramps !! :D :roll: ).
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:09 pm
by Dougster
Hey John, how was Sante Fe? I guess the heat here will fade in a month or so, but for darn sure it hasn't yet. Daddy, that open cabin and top you're lookin' at for Nina sure fits in with our sun here. I see you loose some "fishability", but I think the comfort factor here would be significant. Stay tuned with that idea for sure. If you come up with any sketches please share. I have only three concerns: 1) the weight, 2) my limited ability, and 3) my limited ability. Still, mock ups can't hurt and I have stared at that pic in WB quite a bit. When you gonna flip?

Wishes it would rain down here Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:15 pm
by Daddy
I am hoping to flip by the end of the week. I will prime tomorrow, paint the next day, build a cradle and flip maybe on Saturday.
I share your concern about weight. I think, build it very light. SWMBO and I both like to be out on the water but mainly prefer a bit of shade in the bargain, besides I really like the look. We are only in the 80s here and it will start easing off pretty soon. I think high 60s by the weekend. Yea!! :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:50 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
We had a great time in Santa Fe and and even better time in Red River! What a pretty part of the country. Down in the low 40's in the morning and 75 during the day, all the while breathing clear, clean mountain air at 8,750'. That was our first trip there, but certainly not our last. :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:50 pm
by Dougster
Good to hear from you John, stay in touch. I love that cool, mountain air, though just to visit. I always hope to live closer to significant water, preferably the ocean. Daddy, are you thinkin' of adding the high top cover to the cabin as designed, or redesigning the whole kaboodle (as in kit and)? I fear the heat in the little cabin from those side windows and windshield, but they could be covered during the day I suppose. BTW, your intentions for the next few days would take me 3 months 8O I'll fret and ponder painting alone for weeks I guess. Anyway, please include pics of the festivities.

Here's a question on a tiny issue. I'm prepared to glue down the neoprene on the tank pad this friday. The little Bateau kit has 10' of 2" strip, which is enough to cover my entire pad, without gaps between strips if desired. Now I know the point of gaps for aluminum is to prevent moisture without oxygen against the aluminum, which can result in crevasse corrosion. Since my tank is plastic, that is not a concern. The neoprene is just an extra consideration to prevent chaffing. So, leave gaps (could they hold moisture if water gets in there?), or cover the whole pad? I lean toward gaps, but have no strong feelings.

Open minded on this tank thing Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:12 pm
by TomW
Dougster do you have drainage from the compartment? If so then gaps running fore and aft, if not it doesn't make any difference.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:01 pm
by Dougster
Tom---no drainage, so it's just like I thought. There will be an inspection hatch, and while it is in the cabin, I suppose salt water could get there in some freak way, like maybe through the fuel and vent holes into the console (which must be low, down near the sole) if a big wave puts 8"-12" in the cockpit. Should that happen I suspect I would have concerns other than some dampness in the fuel tank compartment 8O . If a quarter cup of windblown rain ever got in there, I wondered if gaps in the neoprene tape would be useful or irritating.

Still leaning toward strips of neoprene with gaps Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:15 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I do not plan to have the windows a la Mullett Chocker. I will have two small ports, one on each side, probably diamond shaped 6 x 6 inches. Very common in New England lobster boats. I will also have an opening hatch in the fwd. part of the trunk cabin. That open hatch should keep it cool. I got the first coat of the S3 primer on and of course discovered a number of things I would like to "fix" before continuing. Or, maybe I will just continue. After a while it gets to be an obsession.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:37 pm
by Dougster
I see, an opening hatch forward in the trunk cabin. After all, one needs no windshield there to run the boat. Are you planning the trunk cabin roughly similar to the plans?

Knows what you mean about obsessing Dougster :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:49 pm
by Daddy
I want to build it about the same size as MCs, will work to be sure that I have sitting headroom on the bunks. Did you look at the boats on my blog? I posted a couple of pics of other boats, one that shows the interior of a trunk cabin with a hatch in the bunks for the porta potti and also shows the fwd. hatch.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:24 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, I check your blog and yes those pic help. There's also a pic on the cover of the SmallBoats 2008 Woodenboat edition that has a top Spokaloo pointed out to me once. I downloaded that WB to pdf as I don't have that edition. This month's WB has a small pic on page 104 of the SmallBoat 2008 cover and you can see it there. I believe we have talked about this one before, but it doesn't look as good to my eye as Mike Kiefer's does. I wonder if we could get any more pics of his? I'll spend more time on this soon. Right now I'm kinda consumed on getting this tank in right.

Today was a bit of a rollercoaster. I found a piece of aluminum bar at an Ace Hardware store this week and today went to work on it. I know nothing of metal work of course, but starting with a hack saw I first produced this:
Image

After cutting that piece I put in some appropriately placed holes, using a little piece as a template that by chance had the right spacing (that's the part I'm copying above):
Image

Then I put the end in a vice and wailed away on it 'till it looked like this:
Image

By now I'm feeling full of myself and move to the tank pad. I cut pieces of neoprene from the Bateau 10' roll and using the recommended 5200 glued 'em down:
Image

Now, quite full of myself I take one of the screws out that's holding the fitting to the tank. It's just from junk lay around screws and in my wisdom I know I need stainless. So I go to HD (1 hr. round trip, get stainless, come back, and they are just a hair too small :? I called Moeller. Ed is off on fridays and the woman running tech dunno about the correct size but says she'll ship me some (the brackets that didn't work for my use did not come with bolts or screws). I said ok, how long. She figures 3 days shipping and they won't go out 'till Monday. Now Im dying to get these two little screws in so I can set that tank on her pad. It's a very tight fit because I mistakenly already put one of the cleats in the bulkhead and there's not much room 'till you clear that cleat. I know I'm gonna have to be a little strong minded about it to get it to go in and I'm anxious to get on with it. So back to HD, hr. round trip. This time I ask for a "hardware genius". I get a very nice guy who hears my story and takes my junk (zinc) screw that fits just fine and we size it. Seems metric is the thing and we soon fine the right size, try it in the sizing hole thing, it seems to fit, and off I go. A block down the road something starts itching in my head and I pull over to check the nuts. They are in a little HD plastic packet of course and are marked "steel--zinc". Oh my...turn around, go back find guy, look more, find same thing in stainless, test 'em, buy 'em, drive home. They don't fit either :roll: Again, just a hair too small. By now I'm ready to fill the nut up with epoxy and glue the little undersize things in but heard my "better angels". I knocked off to post this. Next is shower and happy hour. Some days you gotta know when to stop :)

Says let it go Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:50 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, ask and ye shall receive...... more pictures of Mikes boat if you scroll all the way down. You have to squint your eyes and turn your head sideways to picture that on Nina but I think with a little mock up and patience it could be done. Also gives the name of the guy who owns the boat, maybe he could be hit up for some pics

http://www.greatwoodboats.com/newslette ... er0908.pdf

Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:00 am
by Dougster
Well, thanks a lot Daddy. You can zoom in on those pics and see some details. I had not realized he made the top collapsible. I guess it's removable as well. I'll be doing highway towing so we're talking 60mph plus wind gusts. Strong, light, and removable may be a tall order, though I can live without removable. More pondering :) I'm stuck on this little screw problem for now--gonna wait for Moeller to send theirs and see. So today I figure I'll get out the quickfair and mess around with the footwell and some rough areas in the porta-potty compartment. Not too fun but I've been putting it off long enough. I'd rather get the fuel tank in, but for those dang screws. So it's quickfair for me. As my wife says "might as well, can't dance".

Not dancin' today Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:06 am
by Daddy
I dont think I will go for the collapsable or removable, just build it light and strong, epoxy makes it all possible, good luck with the tank!!!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:12 am
by cape man
Dougster just a tip if you need it...I had very little space between the sides of the compartment and my tank so had to have a long screw driver to get the screws for the brackets in. Took a piece of 1" PVC, heated up the end and shoved a screw driver handle in it while still pliable. Once it cooled it made a nice extension for the tool to get down in there. Cheaper than buying a 2' long screwdriver that I have never needed until this one project.

Image

Image

Image

Feel your pain on the screws. I made three trips to Tampa (1hr plus roundtrip) to get all the parts to redo my trailer. Did not buy enough bunk supports the first time (have no idea how I missed one of 4 cross members!), and then the bolts I bought were too big for the holes.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:28 am
by Dougster
That's pretty slick, I hope I remember it. I have even less space than that, only 1". It'd be enough but I unthinkingly glued the cleat on the bulkhead there so I can't get a screw driver down, or a bracket. I could have cut the cleat out there, but it's no problem with the makeshift bracket I have contrived, just more trouble. Once I get screws to fit it'll go in and then I gotta put a brace across the compartment holding the vertical bracket down. That will be a happy pic to take when it's done. I get holding it down from the bottom, so it can swell in the vertical dimension. This swelling and compartment venting is something of a thing. Aluminum sounds better than it used to, but in the end, I hope never to see the tank again except through the inspection hatch.

Doin' one thing at a time Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:25 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, did you paint in your bootstripe? I have just laid on two coats of S3 primer and one of topcoat and would like to paint on my bootstripe but not sure where it should go. My usual method is to launch, see how she sits and then decide, but would like to do it now while it is upside down and I can paint the whole bottom.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:26 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, I just posted on your other thread re waterline. I'm guessing the line is just below the sole, i.e. she barely self bails if light. I have graphite 1" below the sole if I recall correctly, so the boot stripe would start there. But as I said in the other thread, it's mostly a matter of faith. What color are you going with and what paint?

Believes there's a waterline there somewhere Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:17 am
by Daddy
I am painting it white (very bold, I know) and have a deep red for the bottom (left over from FESTIVUS). I will give it all another coat of the white today and then a couple of coats of the red for the bottom. I downloaded a picture of E's boat and it looks like his water line is almost parallel to the sheer for the first 8 or 10 feet from the transom, I might use that and extend that line all the way to the bow. Its a crap shoot I guess, as you said, there's a waterline there somewhere :D :doh:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:36 am
by Cracker Larry
You could always make the final adjustments with a boot stripe. That's what I'm planning on doing, some day :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:29 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I had a conversation with the guy who owns the boat we have been talking about that appeared in WB. Real nice guy, explained to me how he built his top, how it folds down, etc, said he would email me more pics of the build. Said he had admired Nina and was familiar with the design, interested in our progress. I will keep you posted on what I get from him.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:46 pm
by Dougster
Good on you for reaching out Daddy. I look forward to more info on that. Without design help I'm afraid to venture too far as I have a poor sense of what I'll call "visual aesthetics". As in the wife picks out my clothes kind of thing. I'd know if it was ugly but not until I'd dang near finished building it. A good look without too much weight is the thing I guess, which seems a challenge. Some of those little pilot roofs or whatever you call 'em look weird to me with little spindly legs or being too tall, etc. You're far enough along in the build now to know that Nina is a little vain. She wants to look good :)

I got my little Moeller fuel tank hold down strap screws in the mail yesterday and they fit very snugly. Made me wonder if I should do a pressure test of the tank before she's sealed in for good. I stopped in a boat dealership on the way home and asked if they could pressure test a fuel tank. His mouth went kinda slack and his gaze got long and he said "uh...". I somewhat inappropriately joked with him, saying his look did not inspire confidence and he recovered a little, but he's never done it and was figuring it out on the spot. I wouldn't trust 'em with it. Either I'll just trust Moeller or jury rig something myself (bicycle pump, balloons, :doh: ). Tomorrow is more quickfair in the forward compartments, and more sanding.

Looking forward to more cabin mod pics Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:34 pm
by fishin'
I don't know exactly what kind of connections the tank has on it, but a plumber might be able to pressure test it for you, if you know one. They do it all the time in houses. Good luck.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:49 pm
by Fred in Wisc
I'm envisioning using a radiator pressure tester. You can rent them at pretty much any auto parts store (around here at least) for a few bucks. It's basically a littl air pump with a pressure gauge. You pressurize the system then watch to see if the gauge drops. Pump it up and go away for a half hour, if the needle does not move you are golden. If it does you can use soapy water on the tank and connections to detect little ari leaks (forms bubbles). They come with a radiator cap adapter, but it looks like that could be readily removed and a fitting temporarily rigged to hook into your tank and lines.

Just figuring it out as I go along. Hope that's helpful somehow.

Fred in Wisc

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:01 am
by Spokaloo
Most aluminum welding shops have the appropriate equipment.

Just hook her up man, you are sweating the minute stuff....

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:41 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I just posted three pics of the WB boat on my blog showing the folding top
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:43 am
by Dougster
Eric, I think I'm doing just what you say, sweating small stuff. I mean, Moeller checks the tanks. I used their screws to put the bracket on. They were tight and I hoped they didn't it the back stop somewhere and cause problems, but, nah, it's the screws they supply. Still, maybe it's an easy thing to do, and an excuse to check out HD and Auto store when I get sick of Quickfair today. I'm not quite through smoothing out the rough sections in the various compartments there. They'll be storage and I don't want 'glass edges jabbing my hand if I reach in there. Don't want to go nuts and put a yacht finish in a storage compartment either :lol: BTW, I saw the recent pic of your project where you sanded those water stains out and was amazed at how that turned out. That's an exciting project.

Daddy, those are good new pics and help a lot with the look. She looks more beamy than Nina, which may help make it work better, but I don't really see why. Those windows that tilt up are great. Do you think he completely customed those? And the wind shield removes when it folds down. The details are all a mystery, but you are on a mission. Anyway, a removable and/or foldable top is sure a nice thing. Maybe it negates me putting a spray rail on, since it provides added spray protection anyway? I assume you are planning a hard top for the forward cabin area?

Intending a Quickfair morning Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:04 am
by Daddy
Dougster, yes I am planning a hard top for the trunk cabin. I don't know if your realize it but if you click on a picture in my blog it resets the pic in a much bigger format, helpful to see the details.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:06 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, if you want to negate the necessity of spray rails, look at the old '60s Bartenders. They have a little rail that runs off the back of the trunk cabin in an arc, which they had a piece of canvas stretched across to dry the ride before they put the heavier style sprayrails on.

Might be a good option for your particular circumstances.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:36 pm
by Daddy
check it out Dougster, http://www.thesmartrail.com/
also posted more pics Nina has fresh paint

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:07 pm
by Dougster
Like this? http://bartenderboats.com/images/ss22%20lo%20ab.jpg
Very, cool, and the so is that dodger/bimini or whatever. Thanks Eric, I enjoyed searching for Bartenders. No surprise, given my choice of the Nina build, I love 'em. Man that canvas solves a lotta sun problems without doing the foldable top. There are no shortage of options. BTW, you bet I'm blowing up those pics Daddy :wink: Love 'em.

Spread about $30 worth Quickfair, then sanded most of it off today Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:17 pm
by Spokaloo
Bingo. Cheap canvas solution for complex problem.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:34 pm
by Daddy
That top would make life easier, I think I would want the windshield just a tad higher though

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:57 am
by Dougster
Well the fuel tank is pressure tested I did it myself. $30 worth of stuff and at least a half dozen trips back and forth from HD, Tractor Supplies, and Napa Auto Parts. I kept getting wrong sizes, wrong stuff, etc., 'cause of ignorance. Still, it was quite fun and nothing I would have even considered trying 3 years ago when I started all this 8O I was pleased that I tried and surprised that it worked. HD had a nice selection of rubber stoppers to seal the fill and vent openings. I put one end of the fill hose over the fill opening barb on the tank and the other to a hose/barb/1/4" connector. HD has lots of various size connectors, including a coupling that is threaded on one size and is a little tire pressure stem thing on the other. Trailer supplies had a $6.00 pressure gage with a scale good enough to read 3 lbs. Auto parts store had a $10.00 foot pump. Here's an early, not final collection of the parts:
Image

They hooked up to make this contraption:
Image

Then, pump her up to 3 lbs and hold your breath:
Image

Two hours later the needle hadn't budged, so I said good 'nuff and pulled the plug. It was really a fun project for me and I'll probably need the parts to prime the fuel system when the motor is in, as Larry explained in his great long thread. Some other thread gave me the idea, but I can't remember whose. In truth, I've only gotten this far because of the help from all you guys on this forum. :)

Gettin' by with a little help from his friends Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:19 am
by Daddy
You da man Dougster, great job and good to see there are no leaks. Got two coats of paint on the bottom of Nina, will post a pic sometime today, built a well padded cradle and will flip her maybe tomorrow, gonna try to catch Dougster. :P
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:59 am
by peter-curacao
Dougster I just hung up with my tank manufacturer he told me a pressure test with the sensor in will ruin the sensor, don't know how much this is true, could also be an excuse of him because he still have to order them :doh:
Although I think the last, I just thought to tell you this story so you can test your sensor before putting the tank in, just to be sure.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:26 am
by Cracker Larry
I think I'm doing just what you say, sweating small stuff. I mean, Moeller checks the tanks.
Yep, those tanks are pressure tested at the factory. What you want to do now is take that a step further and pressure test the entire system after all the hoses and fittings are installed. You are more likely to have a leaky hose connection than a leaky tank.

If 4 psi damages the sensor, it wouldn't last long anyway. That doesn't make sense :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:32 am
by peter-curacao
Cracker Larry wrote:If 4 psi damages the sensor, it wouldn't last long anyway. That doesn't make sense :doh:
That's what I thought, probably it's an excuse of him because he is so late delivering the tank's, but you never know that's why I wrote it down. I ordered sensors that not constantly let the gauges swing from full to empty maybe that has something to do with it?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:11 pm
by Dougster
I tested just to 3#s. Can't see why that'd hurt the sensor, not that I know how the sensor works :oops: . I do like the idea of testing the entire system with hose in, and now can do that with my hifangled HD/Napa/Tractor Supply boat fuel system assessment module :) . We'll see about the sensor some day, when I get hoses and a motor. I'm back to building a bit each day, starting today, after my antibiotic rescue from a vaccine induced infection. First happy hour in a week is coming up!

Back in that slow lane Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:08 pm
by Dougster
Been too long since I posted, mainly 'cuz I'm movin' so slow. Still, I have finally gotten the dang fuel tank installed:

Image

Sure doesn't look like much but it took me forever. My problem with a plastic tank is there seems to be two mutually incompatable requirements: 1)secure the dang thing so it's not rattling around, and 2) leave room for it to expand 3 % or so (1/2" to 3/4" for me). Anyway, I obsessed and pondered and etc. for too long. Finally I got it braced with some rubber pads glued to the wooden bracing, leaving room for it to swell. It's solid and I'm OK with it. You can see the fuel fill hose on the right. I tried to dry fit it to see and it's a wrestling match, even for someone with my often mentioned massive upper body strength :roll: . Anyway, I got it about 2/3rds on so I guess it'll go. I need to sand the holes in the bulkheads for it and seal 'em good with epoxy. Good quality (i.e. cost too much) hose clamps are ordered, so that's good. I also ordered a little more foam, bow eye, and fuel fill.

I try to do a little something most days. Tonight I took the above pic and cut three little cleats for the rear sections. If ever I get the cabin sole glued in I think folks will hear me hollerin' in the next county :lol: This weekend I need to start with console mockups. That's hard when you don't have an idea of gauges, steering assembly, etc., and it's gonna take some pondering for me. Daddy, if you see this, where are you putting your battery? Seems like it's either one of the wells on either side of the engine (starboard I'd guess) or one of the consoles. Anyway, I'm hoping to push a little harder this weekend, as I have some time on my hands :)

Still boat building Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:24 pm
by steve292
Baby steps dougster,one at a time & you'll get there,just like me :D .
Anyway,where's the fun in doing it fast? Slooooow & enjoy the ride :D
Looks good! keep going.
Steve

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:29 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I plan to put the battery, maybe two batteries back somewhere, under the bench seat, or further back but definitely close to the motor, glad to see you are making progress. I have decided to glass all the way up on the inside of the boat. I think I have enough of the biax to do it. I hate to add the weigh but really like the idea of making that 1/4 ply a bit more bullet proof. It cant amount to too much, lots more work and sanding. I had a mishap with a dock with my GT22 on a windy day and although there was not even a mark on the outside there was noticeable damage on the inside. Dont want to ever see that again. Glad to see you back posting again.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:45 pm
by Dougster
Yeah I resolved to post more, figuring I get lots of help so I need to contribute what little I can. I'd sure like the battery (or batteries) back by the motor, but I'm not completely sold on the rear bench seat. Seems like that might get in the way of fighting fish around the transom if they run that way when you get 'em up close to the boat. 'Course, with the motor well set up it's a long way back there anyway and maybe the bench would be a step to get up on and get the rod tip up or something. How are you planning to get water from the cockpit to the bilge pump/scuppers? Maybe run PVC cut in half or some such to channel the water through the bench? Seems like some trouble but then the bench might hold a live well along with the batteries. I'd very much rather two batteries for such a set up.

Oh and re the glass on the sides. I thought of it for a bit then put it out of my mind, but it's tempting. Also, Eric had some checking on the deck and I want some very light glass there. Since I lean to a hard top, she's getting pretty heavy. It's good to have someone to run these things by for sure. We've had some rain down here in Texas and the wildflowers have popped out. Things have greened up and Nina's pleased with it. She doesn't like droughts one bit.

Building Nina, step at a time Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:56 pm
by gk108
How about a hinged bench that folds down against the MW bulkhead?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:26 pm
by Dougster
Hey gk, never thought of that. But today I started thinkin' more of the convenience of the full rear bench seat with all the storage underneath. There would be room for 2 batteries and a live well easily. I'm pondering for now I guess. Daddy: what are you planning for the cabin roof? I go round and round..It would have been nice to have had all this figured out before I got here, 'stead of just paying attention to what's right in front of me. Oh well, some nice SS hose clamps arrived today, so this weekend I hope to get the hoses on the tank. Gotta drill holes for the fuel line and vent line, then sand and epoxy coat the inside of the holes, let dry, run hoses, and try to wrestle that dang fill hose in place. It does not want to bend, but maybe stubborn will get it. Meanin' me being stubborn, not the darn hose :)

We'll see how it goes Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:25 pm
by Daddy
Hey Dougster, I am thinking of 1/4 inch ply with dynel fabric on top, the dynel has the advantage of looking like canvas when the epoxy cures as I am going for a retro look. I plan to have a folding back to the back bench and space underneath for storage. Today I got my stringers glassed in, well, one anyway, the second one tomorrow, I wetted my tape off the boat, goes on so much faster. I have to bear down so I can catch up to you guys. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:45 am
by JohnC
Good morning Dougster,
Being stubborn and suffering from BBV, that really is an incurable disease! :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:44 pm
by Dougster
Hey John,how you doin? Time you started on that Car/BoatPort. You may be right about the incurable part, you can get hooked into this thing for sure. BTW, isn't it nice that bad heat is finally gone and Fall is knocking on the door? Daddy, I like that canvas look so that's an interest for me. What do think 1/4" ply's gonna need in terms of (can't think of the term)....roof supports or whatever, beams I guess. Wouldn't want to cut into what little headroom there is very much. I thing Joel recommended Divinycell #45 with one layer of 6 oz glass on each side in some other thread re a light hard top (but for a bigger top I think). Don't worry about catching up, just give a wave when you go by :)

Ready for the weekend Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:06 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I guess it depends on several things, like how much camber you put in the roof. I was thinking of laminating a couple of beams, maybe a total of 3/4 thick up against the roof. Not sure but maybe add grab rails to the top of the roof which will add strength to it too. Still pondering. :)
Daddy
PS got my other stringer all taped in today and now it is time to start on the frames but the wife has the day off tomorrow and we are going up to the mountain to the Trapp Family Lodge for some good old German sausages and sour kraut and leef peeping. The foliage here in this part of New England is at peak right now. Maybe i'll post a couple of pics on my blog.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:17 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
I think I'm going to shift gears on the boatport, just can't get it the way I want it and have enough room. Also, I'm going shift boats (SWMBO & I :D) decided we wanted something a little smaller and easier to tow for now and build a larger boat later. How's that for BBV?! :doh: More later when the plans arrive!
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:44 pm
by ks8
Daddy wrote:...but the wife has the day off tomorrow and we are going up to the mountain to the Trapp Family Lodge for some good old German sausages and sour kraut and leef peeping.
Do you end the evening singing *So long, farewell...* ? I do miss the New England fall fireworks. Nice here too, but different, in its own way. Though I'd say the wild flower blooms in fall around Dresden are a tough competition, especially in the fields along the river. I guess something like the cherry blossoms in and around DC. :)

Dougster... any rough idea or hope for a first splash date yet? Enjoying the cooler weather for final fairing and prep, etc? :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:31 am
by Dougster
KS---re splash date, given my rate of progress, just make any estimate the quadruple it :) I have a lot to go. Gotta paint the hull some day and then there's the engine, controls, sonar, wiring, electronics, consoles, baitwell, cockpit layout, cabin top, windows, decks, topside paint...well, I'm almost there huh? Figure, maybe, around the turn of the century? Step by step, though. This is mostly a fun part of the build for sure. I have to kind of make it up/figure it out as I go, day to day. One step leads to how to do the next one sort of thing. Somehow I'm reminded of the backpacker's prayer: "You pick 'em up, Lord, and I'll put 'em down".

Puttin' 'em down Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:35 pm
by Dougster
OK, I got the hoses all in, which means the whole fuel tank thing is done :D The fill hose was no real issue. Five minutes of gruntin' and cussin', maybe ten, then done. Took a break, got another cuppa coffee and put on the vent and fuel line hoses.

Image



Image

I have one little question. See the fuel line in the second pic, the smaller one to the rear? It didn't fit very snugly at all over the metal barb tank fitting. It was pretty loose. It's a 3/8" ID line from Bateau. Of course the hose clamps snugged if up tight. Have I seen reference somewhere to some goop folks use there, to aid in the seal? Can't remember. Anyway, I'm feeling very good as this fuel tank thing has been a journey for me. I went back to gluing in a few cleats here and there after the hose thing. Tomorrow I think I'll treat myself and start cutting out some mock panels for the consoles out of cheap luan.

Hopin' folks have a nice Saturday night Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:45 pm
by Cracker Larry
See the fuel line in the second pic, the smaller one to the rear? It didn't fit very snugly at all over the metal barb tank fitting. It was pretty loose.
That's odd Dougster :doh: It should be a good snug fit. They usually take a little effort to get them on, and impossible to pull off again without cutting. That barb fitting on the tank might be a 5/32 :? That is the fuel pickup line, you don't want it sucking air. I'd unscrew that hose barb fitting and take it and a hose sample to the hardware store. It shouldn't be loose.
"You pick 'em up, Lord, and I'll put 'em down".
Love it, perfect :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:23 pm
by TomW
Dougster sometimes Moeller uses a smaller 1/4" fuel hose outlet on there smaller tanks. Just pop yours off and measure it. Like Larry says it should be snug. This is one you don't want loose, your actually pinching the hose some when you clamp down on a smaller outlet and this will create a wear point. A 1/4" hose will handle any motor up to about 75HP, but as with anything bigger is better. :D

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:35 am
by Dougster
Well, I thought I was through with the fuel tank! You guys are great. It's a 17 gallon tank, not small to me but it must be a 1/4" barb. I guess it just screws off, I'll check it this morning. Tomorrow I'll call moeller and see if I can talk 'em into sending me a 3/8". I thought 3/8" was standard and there was no documentation either way with the tank. Coulda been a real problem one day. I give myself minimal credit for having sense enough to ask, but really I want to thank both of you guys, Larry and Tom for taking the time to help folks like me. I'm sure we all appreciate it on this forum. As determined as I am on this build, I wonder if I could ever have gotten this far without the forum support. I'll say one thing, this incident sure makes the point that there's no such thing as a "dumb" question. Now if I hadn't asked, that would of been dumb :lol:

Knows a new thing about fuel hose barbs Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:18 pm
by Cracker Larry
Doug, no need to order, those are standard pipe fittings, it just screws off. Any decent hardware store, Lowes, HD, will have them, cost about $1.50. Ask for NPT male pipe to 3/8 hose barb adapter. The male pipe size is probably 1/4", but it will measure bigger, pipe size is weird, so take it with you.

What goes around comes around, Dougster :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:22 pm
by TomW
Larry the only question I have with that is the SS factor. Tank fittings are SS aren't they? If so you may need to go to a good hardware store or auto parts store Dougster, not HD or Lowe's. This one I'm not sure on but bronze or SS is what you need.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:49 pm
by Cracker Larry
The tank fittings are aluminum and so is that hose barb. I don't think I've ever seen a stainless hose barb fitting. Not saying there isn't. You can get them easily in aluminum obviously. Sure wouldn't hurt to keep them similar metals. I think most hardware store (NAPA was a good suggestion) fittings are actually a bronze, not brass. I've always used them for everything fuel related, including connections to the fuel filter. For what it's worth, my fuel filter housing is solid stainless, and it came supplied with the brass/bronze fittings.

Image

They turn green on the surface but seem to last forever. Used them for years on a lot of boats.
Also, the fuel shut off valve that Dougster needs to add to the top of that tank will be a brass/bronze unit. There is some kind of rule about the metals being non-sparking, non ferrous. That why aluminum, brass, bronze, and copper are used for fuel fittings.

Image

Don't forget the shut-off valve, Dougster. We'll get this tank finished up right :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:48 pm
by Dougster
Just checked in and saw yall's posts. I've done a little research and I believe what I have is an aluminum 1/4" NPT to 5/16" barb. That seems weird, 5/16" but I found it listed on my bill of materials. So I'm putting a 3/8" (6/16") ID hose over a 5/16" fitting. That's why it's loose, but just a little. I'd rather it not be loose any. Those hose barbs are common in brass online and probably locally. It's more convenient for me to order one but I haven't seen one in aluminum. Seems like a brass would work with it's aluminum pickup fitting, as I thought (but not sure) brass and aluminum don't "talk" to each other. I'll call Moeller tomorrow and find out, then pick one up locally or order it. I'll also need some thread sealer. I have the typical honey do plumbers stuff for round the house, but that's for water, not gas I'm thinkin'. Anyway, I just need to get it right.

Now, er, BTW Larry...What fuel shutoff :oops: Now I think I see it there in the top of your pic. The fuel line pickup is in the bottom, so that hose must curve around 180 degrees and be mounted to that cut off? I never heard of such but it seems like a fine thing. I can see me leaving it cut off, then later wondering why the engine won't start :lol: I sure appreciate you guys lookin' over my shoulder.

Don't mind sayin' so Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:58 pm
by gk108
Brass into aluminum is fine. Millions of cars (and boats) use brass fittings on fuel lines into aluminum carbs. 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:38 pm
by Daddy
Gasoline eats teflon.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:47 pm
by Cracker Larry
Now, er, BTW Larry...What fuel shutoff Now I think I see it there in the top of your pic. The fuel line pickup is in the bottom, so that hose must curve around 180 degrees and be mounted to that cut off? I never heard of such but it seems like a fine thing
.

Yep, that's exactly what the hose does, makes a 180 loop back to the valve. The cut-off is a USCG requirement, and good sense. If there is a fire anywhere on the boat, you want to be able to shut off the fuel supply, especially if that hose were to melt 8O or get a puncture.

5/16 is what I meant when I said 5/32 :doh: I'm having a problem with numbers this week. :? Figured it was one size down. Since you have to buy a new fitting anyway, you could connect the shut off valve directly to the pick up fitting with a short 1/4 NPT pipe nipple, then screw the hose barb fitting to that.
Brass into aluminum is fine. Millions of cars (and boats) use brass fittings on fuel lines into aluminum carbs.
Yep.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:18 pm
by cape man
Hey Dougster, Here's mine. Have no freakin' clue what it'sade of, but it is a nice valve! :lol: :lol: I think it's alluminum...

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:16 pm
by ThistleDewDayDreamin
Is it a USCG rule that all fuel hose to fitting connections use double clamps? Just thought I'd ask, I thought that was one of those "cardinal" rules?!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:51 pm
by Dougster
This looks like a possible. BTW, that works Cape Man. Where'd you get it?

http://www.bfmarineinc.com/cgi-local/pr ... how_detail

Wonder what it means by "3/8" hose barb"? I want a 3/8" barb with a 1/4" NPT male on the other end.

Kinda likes talkin' dirty Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:05 pm
by cape man
Dougster I got it at T.A. Mahoney's in Tampa...the most dangerous store I have ever been in. I'll look at it tomorow and see if it has anything written on it that will lead us to the source....

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:13 pm
by Dougster
OK, thanks Cape Man. It's funny just now clicking to this, but until Larry told me I was clueless. Seems like a nice safety feature though, so I'm game.

Dunna wanna blow up Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:14 am
by TomW
Dougster normally the valve assembly is made up of 3 parts, You need 2 of these http://www.discountmarinesupplies.com/p ... duct=82341 The 1/4NPT / 3/8hose. And one of the two way valves shown here either the Seachoice 2way or the Conbraco. http://www.discountmarinesupplies.com/c ... ild=107360 You'll also probably need to stop at NAPA and get some tape/sealant for gas line joints.

These are the best prices I have found on these guys so far, especially with there shipping price. One of the good hardware or auto parts stores may even have what your looking for.

Also do double clamb like Larry it is another safety feature and is a CG requirement as I recall.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:57 am
by Dougster
Thanks Tom, I get it. I've seen those at that link. That set up makes the whole thing a little long, so I wondered about this:
http://www.bfmarineinc.com/cgi-local/pr ... how_detail

If the male end is 1/4" NPT then maybe a 3/8" NPT hose barb on the other, female side would do the trick. I'll pick up some thread sealant after work today.

Lookin' old Monday morning in the face Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:33 pm
by TomW
That looks like it will work, it all depends on the fittings etc.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:31 pm
by Dougster
Well, I got the right shutoff valve/hose barb fittings from Home Depot. Here they are.

Image

Next, I used teflon tape as thread sealant and pue 'em in"

Image

All went well until I was tightening the last hose clamp. I was using one of the screwdrivers with extra bits stuck in the base and I heard a bit fall loose, hit, rattle, and roll. It had to have rolled somewhere underneath the tank or between tank and bulkhead. I spent the rest of the day cussing it. Magnet probe, nothing. I even ripped a piece of vinyl molding on the table saw to fit the channels underneath the tank made from interspersed strips of neoprene. I reamed out the spaces with the strip of flexible molding. Nothing. Stabbed fingers and knuckles and dripped blood over tank. Bent stiff pieces of stiff wire to use a feelers. Nothing. Crawled underneath the hull with stud finder magnet. Nothing. Did whole thing again. Nothing. Prayed, begged, cursed, repeated, etc. Nothing. I can't find it and it would take a saw to get that tank lifted up now. I have visions of that little bit wedged against the hull and the plastic tank, working and chaffing, but I think it's one of those things I'm gonna have to live with.

Still irritated by it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:38 pm
by Spokaloo
I'd say at least 30% of the tanks in the boats around the world have said floating item under them. No worries Doug.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:46 pm
by Dougster
You're a kind man Eric.

In the 30% club Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:24 pm
by Lucky_Louis
Two more builders can relax because mine not only has a #3 Robertson bit somewhere under it, there's a magnet that used to be attached (apparently poorly) to a telescopin' probe. I figured with all the pounding and trailering it'd have shown up by now but nope. Maybe there's one of them 'special' hatches under fuel tanks?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:39 pm
by ks8
Thinking of setting up an external tank for my boat. Just wondering... is teflon tape the best on a fuel line? I know it is usually alright on a transmission fluid line, or vacuum line, and some coolant lines, but is it alright on a petrol line with the ethanol we must deal with these days. :?

Just wonderin'... :)

Looks like most of the work is done there. :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:48 pm
by peter-curacao
Dougster wrote:Next, I used teflon tape as thread sealant and pue 'em in"
Image
Dougster I read in an other topic that gasoline eats Teflon, don't know if it's true just thought to mention it.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:01 pm
by Lucky_Louis
Go ahead and Google "teflon tape and gasoline". There's lots of opinions. The concensus seems to be that there's better products to use out there but if you kept the tape away from the 1st couple of theads, you'll never have a problem with the white tape.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:40 pm
by gk108
Lucky_Louis wrote:Go ahead and Google "teflon tape and gasoline". There's lots of opinions. The concensus seems to be that there's better products to use out there but if you kept the tape away from the 1st couple of theads, you'll never have a problem with the white tape.
That goes for about anything you use it on. You'd be amazed at the way a little bit of tape can peel off and find its way into the one place that will have the most dramatic effect. FWIW, I've used standard teflon tape on fuel fittings for a long time with no troubles. Teflon is inert to gasoline and oil. There is a yellow teflon tape on the market that is intended for natural gas connections, but nothing special for gasoline. Here's a guide for the teflon tape color codes:
WHITE-Single density- should only be used on NPT threads up to 3/8 inch.
YELLOW- Double Density- yellow double density is often labeled as "Gas type"
RED-Triple Density: (Note-the container is red but the tape itself appears as a pale pink color). Presently required on all joints ยฝ" diameter or greater.
GREEN- Oil Free PTFE tape- Required for use on all lines conveying oxygen (I.E. โ€“medical oxygen or welding oxygen lines).
COPPER COLOR- contains granules of copper and is to be used as a thread lubricant but is not approved as a thread sealant. (Generally it is used as a thread lubricant on bolts or pipe threads for mechanical applications where no physical seal is required.)
You are good to go with what you have. 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:47 pm
by Cracker Larry
Highly controversial subject. Good teflon tape works, but it's not recommended. Many people say that gas dissolves it, but I soaked a piece in a jar of gas/10%ethanol for a week and it didn't hurt it at all. Gas isn't up there in those pipe threads anyway. I've used it for years with no problems, usually just because I've got some handy. Permatex makes thread sealers rated for gasoline and they are probably better, but I've never seen the need to get any.

They also make a yellow teflon tape that's heavier and rated for gas, but I think they mean natural gas, not sure :doh:

The biggest reason it's not recommended is that if you remove the fitting it leaves shreds of the tape in the female side and this ends up in the fuel system. Usually in the fuel injectors.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:48 pm
by Cracker Larry
Dang, GK, we said the same thing at the same time :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:57 pm
by gk108
Cracker Larry wrote:Dang, GK, we said the same thing at the same time :doh:
Yeah, threads and sealants used to be more important to me than they are now. It's all about gap filling abilities. That sounds familiar, doesn't it? :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:00 pm
by Cracker Larry
That's funny right there :lol: I don't worry about it as much as I used to :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:04 pm
by peter-curacao
Sorry I brought it up :oops:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:26 pm
by ks8
peter-curacao wrote:Sorry I brought it up :oops:
Not at all. That's why I provoked it. :)

If the consensus had been that there is a severe problem, not only would I adjust my plans accordingly, but also Dougster could deal with it while it is still easy to deal with. Better now than later. :wink:

I've got some white. I'll price some Permatex and then decide. Hope you didn't mind the replay of the issue Dougster. Now just got to remember to be careful to clean out bits and strips if it ever needs servicing. :)

When are you going to hang the engine? You know the tempation to splash with or without paint once you do. The bottom sure looks sealed enough for a quickie sea trial.

Image

You saw how Eric couldn't wait... careful... :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:46 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Looking good on the fuel tank! :lol: You'll be ready to splash in no time!
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:14 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, you are the poster boy for portable fuel tanks!!!! :D :D :D
I am not sure but I have been told that gas eats teflon, maybe not true, can anybody give a definitive answer?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:49 pm
by gk108
Just to be sure, I looked at several Dupont data sheets on different teflon compounds for various purposes. They all used similar language:
chemical inertness to nearly all industrial chemicals and solvents
One compound did seem to let a comparatively large amount of red fuming nitric acid get through, so Dougster might need to be careful about buying fuel additives from the dockside snake-oil salesmen. 8O

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:45 am
by Cracker Larry
I have been told that gas eats teflon, maybe not true, can anybody give a definitive answer?
Daddy
I thought we just did that :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:29 am
by Dougster
Daddy wrote:Dougster, you are the poster boy for portable fuel tanks!!!! :D :D :D
Amen to that! Jeez this has been a trial. Imagine the simplicity of portable tanks. Or just a big tank strapped down in plain sight for all to see. If I was doing this over I believe I'd of used a custom aluminum tank. It would have fit just right, with max gallons. No out gassing so no stinky vent. No expansion so no struggling to strap it down tight but not too tight. And something tougher than plastic to withstand the odd phillips bit that gets lost in the compartment. Sigh.

Re the teflon, while it would be easy to change,I'm not inclined to bother yet. Before I used it I got the tech guy at Moeller, Ed McConnel. He said use teflon. I went to an automotive store and asked a guy what to use for thread sealant on a gas tank pickup, he said teflon, just don't let it overhang where pieces can get in the tank. I wrapped carefully starting with the second thread.

Today I'm gonna jack the nose up and wiggle Nina as much as I can, just in case that bit is 1) between the tank and it's aft bulkhead and 2) in a mood to slide down against the bulkhead so that I can fish around with a wire and feel it. After that fails I'm gonna sand a bit on the footwell and get it prepped for primer :roll:

Dreams of portable tanks Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:17 am
by Daddy
I guess we all posted on the teflon at the same time, I am glad to know that it is OK to use. Dougster, I just finished glassing the inside of Nina all the way up to the gunnels, getting really good at glassing near vertical surfaces, glad I had some extra biax fabric. Wish I could think of a way to help find that bit. SWMBO should have a taken a pic of the boatbuilder, stud finder in hand, under the boat. :D
Daddy believes in teflon

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:56 am
by Larry B
Daddy wrote: SWMBO should have a taken a pic of the boatbuilder, stud finder in hand, under the boat. :D
Holding the Skeg and a 16D Nail Gun
:lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:59 am
by Spokaloo
Doug just flip her over and give her a good shake, it'll drop out...

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:15 pm
by ks8
The way these things work, whether working on cars or boats or aircraft... that bit has likely found its way to the least accessible spot and wedged itself in there for some one to find seventy years from now. Go ahead and wag her and see what happens... but you may need cape man's hatch to get to it. :| :P

Hoping Dougster shakes it loose...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:37 pm
by Cracker Larry
If that compartment has a drain, you could prop up the bow and maybe flush it out with a water hose.

Not much worried about it though, and happy about that shut off valve. Move on Dougster :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:06 pm
by Dougster
Cracker Larry wrote:Not much worried about it though, and happy about that shut off valve. Move on Dougster :D
I'm with you Larry. It's a toss up between that and Eric's hold her upside down and shake her. Randal lives next door, and he's a cowboy, so I'm sure he could hold and shake. I could use my own massive upper body strength to stand underneath and catch. It'd be safe enough. Like I said, he's a cowboy.

I did the jack and shake thing, then copped a feel with the wire probe. Nothing. There's even a story in that. I used a little scissor jack. Nina seemed awfully heavy. Seemed to get heavier and indeed the dang jack was binding somehow. Got her up 3" or 4" inches shook, gingerly climbed aboard, probed, nothing. Climbed down, straining hard now I get her up another inch or so. As I step over from the ladder get back aboard, she tips alarmingly as I put one foot's weight on her. Not being a cowboy, I got all weight back on the ladder 8O It occurred to me that I was close to turning a little bitty problem into a new, not so little bitty problem. I have noticed a penchant for that in my life.

Happily for me, having lived my three score, wisdom set in and I chose to walk away. Ain't nothing easy with fuel tanks and me, though, 'cuz when I go to back down the jack, it got about half way (with a lotta strain), then just wouldn't go no mo'. Had to dig out another little bottle jack with maybe a 2" throw, block it up, and take the load off that darn scissor jack to get it out. Nina eased gratefully back in place. I tossed the scissor jack in the garbage.

Now, here's one last wrinkle. Yesterday, during my travails I found a small lock washer in the foot well. I used them to bolt the two little aluminum straps Moeller provided on. Now at the time I thought, wouldn't that be great if that's what I heard. But it was loud and that's a tiny washer. And there's a missing bit. Now there had been a missing bit the week before but I recalled finding several old loose ones and replacing it. Today I thought, well, what if I remember wrong? So I sit in the same place I was when all this started, alternating dropping a bit and a washer while trying to remember the sound :lol: Again, happily for me, having living my three score, it occurred to me what a fool's task I was on, and I gave it up to sand a bit in the foot well.

Gets amused at his own fool self Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:55 pm
by Cracker Larry
Laughing so hard my sides hurt :lol: :help:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:10 pm
by chicagoross
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:48 pm
by wadeg
Yep, they can be called "The other woman" for more than one reason. I was actually up in your neck of the woods today Dougster, buying a motor for my girl. The gas tank problem is something that I avoiding completely as I am using a 12 gallon portable in the large front hatch. I just don't trust built-in tanks enough. With the portable, I just go buy another one and set it in place. Nothing to cut out.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:52 pm
by ks8
A musician's ear playing detective... love it! :lol:

When I was driving a 51 chevy, year's ago (my first boat), the speedometer broke years before that. I kept a blues harp (in A) on the dash and had calibrated that in overdrive, *C#* was 53 miles per hour, just in case I ever got pulled over. Any officer was welcome to ask me to prove it, as long as he didn't mind me playing the thing while driving. I could always confirm it since the front end would start to shake at 54 or 55, but I'd rather not sense my speed that way. I'm sure a few passengers over the years wondered why I would pick it up now and then and play just one quick note. :lol: Now, I could have also used my nose, since *usually*, a good blow is roughly an E flat, but that didn't map to any useful mph, and tended to change slightly with the weather, and could potentially be more messy while driving...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:10 pm
by Dougster
Wadeg, I envy you the portable tanks. I learned a lot putting this one in, including how nice portables are! Larry, I owe you that shutoff valve, 'cus I was clueless about 'em. Now I'm not clueless and happy to have it there. Thanks for the tip. KS, that harmonica thing is way out there man. You got more ear than I do for sure. If it's just about too high to sing I figure it's an E. Otherwise I got nothing. No boat building today---went into town and practiced with my little 4 piece band. Actually we worked on scratch recording our tunes so we could practice them at home by ourselves and finally learn the darn things. Like, now where did the bridge go and that sort of thing. Yesterday I put a coat of S3 primer on the foot well and remembered how user friendly that primer is. Sure did show the lumps and bumps though. Maybe I'll sand a little bit more before the next coat. I can't quite decide what to paint it with. Kiwi would be nice for no slip, but maybe hard to clean in there? There's no drain so it'd be bucket, brush, and sponge. May end up throwing a rubber mat down there anyway. For now I'm thinking Sterling Matterhorn White for top sides and Kirby retro easy for the hull.

Hey Eric, Daddy, or Mullet: how deep are your consoles? Looks like around 12" on the scale drawing, but I know folks just go their own way. Mullet, yours sure look cool, port and starboard both customized. For this week, any time after work will be on the foot well. Goodbye fuel tank :D

Movin' On Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:58 pm
by Daddy
Re: consoles, I am thinking whatever minimal size I can get away with. You need to have enough space for the radius on your steering which would determine the minimum you can build. Maybe 12 inches is the min. :doh:
Daddy, doesnt like lumps in his footwell either.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:38 pm
by Murry
You're a trip Dougster!

Picturing you drop that washer and bit over and over again is to much. I'd probably be doing the same.
Thanks for taking the time to share that with us. :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:27 pm
by Spokaloo
I believe mine were a foot. If I were to do it over, they would be a little taller (maybe 4-6" at best) and I would put the wheel higher. Also be cognizant of where the throttle control is in relation to either a bulkead or human head forward of the console.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:36 am
by chicagoross
Also be cognizant of where the throttle control is in relation to either a bulkead or human head forward of the console
How do you know that this is important? :doh: :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:58 am
by Spokaloo
We learn a little with every project....
:oops:

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:42 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Nice raindance you did over there, now we've got some water movin'! Lake's up 6" just today! :D :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:45 pm
by Dougster
Wow, 6 inches! I drove into Seguin early today, through Canyon Lake (6:45) and it was still raining. Rained all night here; made that old alarm no friend of mine. Wanted to sleep in. Coming home this afternoon I could see some of the launch ramps in the distance. Lake's still down, but looking better for sure. We got 5 plus here (gauge overflowed) so it was a good night for sure. Bless these nice cold fronts. The chicken's got all worked up and did the whole day out; had to shoe 'em into the coop at dusk, talkin' to 'em about the mean old fox and the sadist 'coons. They always understand.

Says chickens aren't that dumb Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:52 pm
by chicagoross
Yup, that's what my wife's mom always told her kids: "You guys are dumber than chickens! The chickens are smart enough to know when to go home at night!"

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:31 am
by Cracker Larry
The problem with mine is that they prefer my shop to their own house :doh:

Image

Image

Never know where you're going to find an egg :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:01 pm
by Dougster
Nice looking chickens Larry, I bet they get real indignant when you chase 'em ought of there. When Shirley or I run ours off the porch you can just hear 'em muttering things like "well, he's just rude that's all there is to it", etc. That's a pretty Roo you got there, lookin' proud of himself BTW.

I did some little chores this morning (had to set a post in the ground with a little concrete to mount a nice rain gauge Shirley got). That left me a little tuckered but I did go down to the shop and ponder awhile, then sanded about half the primer off the foot well. I spent about 45 unpleasant minutes sanding that thing, cuz it just didn't suite me. I'll put another coat of primer on tomorrow and hopefully be satisfied. I also started marking the cut out on the cabin sole for the foot well. Tomorrow is our 29th anniversary but I'll have time for a little boat work, then a glass of wine, cards, (better get ahold of some flowers 8O ), and a nice dinner out. Dunno how I got this lucky.

Feelin' grateful Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:28 pm
by Cracker Larry
That Roo, Indiana Jones, got WAY too proud of himself, and down right dangerous to turn your back on. When he jumped up and kicked Dori one time too many, he found his bad self seasoning a pot of dumplings :roll: RIP.

Congrats on the anniversary, not many make it that long anymore it seems. No staying power. We just passed #36 ourselves 8O
Marriage is a lot like sanding boats, got to keep working at it till your satisfied.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:54 pm
by TomW
Congrats Dougster to you and your wife, Deb and I will reach our 34th inless than a month. It has been a fun time generally with a few hichups that we always seemed to be able to work through. Good luck and many more. :D

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:00 pm
by wadeg
Wow, Dougster! Congrats on the 29 years. Looks like Tom and CL have been blessed as well. I can only hope I last that long. Five great years so far. Don't spend too much time with the other woman (your LB22) tomorrow. Especially on your anniversary. I have learned the hard way that the you have to keep the wife happy by giving her higher priority then the boat.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:47 am
by steve292
wadeg wrote:Wow, Dougster! Congrats on the 29 years. Looks like Tom and CL have been blessed as well. I can only hope I I have learned the hard way that the you have to keep the wife happy by giving her higher priority then the boat.
Same here Dougster congratulations, 10 years just gone for me.
Remember- Happy wife= happy life :)
Steve

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:14 am
by Dougster
Thanks to all for the good wishes. Hey Wadeg, I see you're nearby in Kyle, maybe a few of us in the area oughta meet up somewhere for breakfast or lunch. I read you got a Tohatsu nearby and they loaned you the mounting template. What dealer did you use? Tom, I'm impressed with 34 years. Steve, hold course, weather the squalls and you'll get there :D And of course Larry, you win the pot with 36. Good on you.

Shirley and I had a happy day, with beautiful weather. We did some simple outdoor chores, she in the garden, me trimming a tree. Then she picked snap pea seeds to plant next year while I fooled with Nina (working on the cut outs for the cabin sole footwell and adjacent hatch). A simple, easy day that fit like a glove. Dinner out was just great, at a big B & B in the country. Four courses with a wine pairing and don't think about the $$. We decided in advance to forgo gifts and splurge on dinner (that moves the new Dremel 4000 back to Christmas :lol: ). As we left the restaurant a Great Horned Owl swept by, landed on a fence post, and stared. We seemed to meet his approval, though they're hard to read. Anyway, he stuck around and we moved on.

Movin' on Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:17 pm
by wadeg
Hey Wadeg, I see you're nearby in Kyle, maybe a few of us in the area oughta meet up somewhere for breakfast or lunch. I read you got a Tohatsu nearby and they loaned you the mounting template. What dealer did you use?
Dougster,

I actually lucked out finding this dealer. He used to own San Marcos Marine, but has closed it and is now semi-retired. He does not advertise any more and the only way you can find him is looking up places certified to service the Tohatsu engines on the Tohatsu/Nissan website.

Originally, I was going to order one online from a dealer in Florida. To get the warranty stuff sorted out, I had to have it delivered to a place that was certified to service them and have it installed by them. I called the San Marcos Marine number and told Rodney the story. He wanted a chance to beat the price which he did and included the install and setup in his quoted price for the motor. The best thing about these motors is they include controls and prop with the price. From what I have read, they are also bullet proof.

The only complaint I have heard about them is a lack of service locations but, based on their website service listings, we have a number of them in this area. You can get the San Marcos Marine contact information off of the Tohatsu website http://www.tohatsu.com/dealersearch/index.html. I also got a good price on a custom built trailer from the same guy.

Since closing his San Marcos location, he has moved to Canyon lake which puts him even closer to you.

I never pass up a chance to talk about boats, so anytime you are up for breakfast or lunch, just let me know. Maybe we can talk JohnC into joining us since he is at Canyon Lake. Then again, maybe I can talk you two into helping me when I put my OB15 on the trailer. There would be grilled steaks and beer involved :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:01 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Sounds like as job for "The Enforcer" 8O Did somebody say "beer"? :D .
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:20 pm
by Dougster
Hey thanks Wade, that was some detective work finding that guy. I need to decide pretty soon on the motor I guess, but it's hard. When you say controls come with it, is that throttle or steering too? I was thinking of going ahead and ordering a Teleflex steering control first. Anyway, name a friday or weekend and I'm ready for a boat on the trailer day. If John is free we could carpool it. It would be a fun day.

In it for the fun Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:50 am
by wadeg
Dougster,

Controls do not include steering only the shift/throttle lever. The prop that is included is a composite (Aluminum), but it does give a good starting point and can always be upgraded to stainless later. So, the unique item with these motors is that a shift/throttle control box, tach gauge, and prop are included with the price. Get a quote from the dealer we talked about. I think you will be surprised at the price.

When the trailer comes in, I will let you and JohnC know a date.

Thanks,

Adam

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:53 pm
by Daddy
Wonder if he would ship a motor to Vermont? :doh:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:01 pm
by Larry B
Dougster wrote:Nice looking chickens Larry, I bet they get real indignant when you chase 'em ought of there. When Shirley or I run ours off the porch you can just hear 'em muttering things like "well, he's just rude that's all there is to it", etc. That's a pretty Roo you got there, lookin' proud of himself BTW.

I did some little chores this morning (had to set a post in the ground with a little concrete to mount a nice rain gauge Shirley got). That left me a little tuckered but I did go down to the shop and ponder awhile, then sanded about half the primer off the foot well. I spent about 45 unpleasant minutes sanding that thing, cuz it just didn't suite me. I'll put another coat of primer on tomorrow and hopefully be satisfied. I also started marking the cut out on the cabin sole for the foot well. Tomorrow is our 29th anniversary but I'll have time for a little boat work, then a glass of wine, cards, (better get ahold of some flowers 8O ), and a nice dinner out. Dunno how I got this lucky.

Feelin' grateful Dougster
Dougster, Like i said I'm Sloow. Congrats on the 29th Anniversary, from now on I'll think about you on my anniversary Oct. 23, But I'm only at 10, unless you count the other two :help: But this one's a keeper, the other two "I" wasn't a keeper :doh: You must be a more pleasant guy than Me :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:11 pm
by wadeg
Daddy wrote:Wonder if he would ship a motor to Vermont? :doh:
Daddy
Actually, all of the Tohatsu motors come with controls, tach gauge, and prop. You just have to make sure you have repair facilities local to you.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:03 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Maybe we could try next Saturday (Nov 07) for breakfast or lunch, let me know if that works.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:50 pm
by Dougster
Yeah, John, that's a good time for me. How 'bout breakfast? We'll pick some middle ground. Maybe Wadeg can join us. Email me if you want. (d w i n 0 8 at good old g m a i l dot com)

Loves his breakfast Dougster :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:06 pm
by wadeg
Sorry guys, I have to pass on the 7th. Have to go build a storage shed for my mom that weekend.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:30 pm
by Dougster
No problem Wadeg, we'll do another Saturday. I typically am free every Sat. morning this fall. Now here's a question for folks.
I'm putting in what I'll call "drop hatches" (seems like Mulletchoker used that term). Anyway, they're in the cabin and don't have to be watertight. So it's just cut 'em out and use the cut out as the hatch. For the "lip" on the underside of the sole, that the hatch itself rests on I saw these numbers somewhere. 3/8" ply, 2 1/4" wide glued 1 1/2" under deck, leaving 3/4" to support the hatch. Do those scantlings/dimensions sound reasonable? They'll have a person's full weight on them at times.

Wants 'em to hold Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:31 pm
by TomW
If they are going to have a person's weight on them I'd make the lip out of 3/4", 1" overlap, 2 1/2" under the box lip, total 3 1/2" wide. The 3/8" would probably work but I would not go any smaller on the size except the overlap could be 3/4" depending how wide your scarf is between the lid and the box rim.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:16 am
by Dougster
Thanks Tom, it sure is nice having you chime in. I'll do 3/4" then instead of 3/8" (just double the 3/8" scrap I have). I'm using gelmagic to glue 'em on and I'll be sure not to apply too much weight and squeeze out the goop. Devil's in the details as always.

Devil's even in Dougster some days :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:52 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, have you bought your motor yet? If not you might want to consider buying a short shaft motor instead of the 20". Measure the motor you are considering from the top of the clamp (i.e. top of the transom) to the top of the motor. My Honda 25 measures 20 inches. That would mean it would stick about 10 inches above the deck and make it impossible to put the hatch, per the design, over it. I cut my transom down to 15 inches and that should let me install the hatch, of course if you don't plan on the hatch it doesn't matter. Just thought I would ask. I think Eric and Mullet went with the 20 inch. I want to do the hatch thing. BTW, I was looking through a book on Penn Yan boats and found where they built one just like Nina back in the 30's including the hatch over the motor. The more things change, the more they stay the same. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:59 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, I've been torn over this issue. For some reason I hate the idea of cutting down the transom. I also like that motor hatch though. Sometimes I wonder if having a 10" hatch wouldn't look so bad, and make a handy little seat up high there when drift fishing our skinny bays. Mostly I think about the new e-tech 30 (but haven't come close to buying yet) because it has a much lower profile. How low I can't get from the specs. I need to go find one somewhere and measure it. I remember Eric considered the hatch but thought the lines would look all wrong that high. I'm just not sure, so let me know your thoughts.

Meanwhile, I'm cutting hatches in the cabin seat tops. I've gotten a little brave with the plunge cut thing using my little 6 1/2" Rigid Fuego circular saw. I never was any good with my old Sears beast of a skill saw, but am having better luck with this little guy. The camera's out for now but I'll post pics in a week or so. It's fun fooling around with the cabin area.

Still head scratching the motor thing Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:21 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, it is simple. The original Handy Billy created by Harry Bryan based on William Hand's design uses a short shaft. On its maiden voyage it cruised down from New Brunswick Canada to Brooklin, Me, a distance of 120 miles, some of it in open ocean and at one point in 6 foot seas and according to Maynard Bray who was along on the trip they did not even cut back on the throttle which is why the design of Hand's boats is exceptional (Documented in WB 160). The next example is the Ninegret, used in Long Island Sound, a sometimes nasty body of water, no probs. Next is Hylan's Top Hat used in Maine waters. All three boats have a short shaft motor. I even emailed Doug Hylan and questioned him on the choice, he felt that there was no issue because of the set back transom. Mine is already cut down. I want to have the hatch over the motor and I want it to look right and that look is what sold me on the design. A 4 inch hatch per the plans will look right and cover a short shaft motor. I realize that a lower transom is a lower transom but the experience of theses builders and owners seems to indicate that it is not a problem. I feel your pain though, once you cut it you are committed, hey, there you go!
Right now I am getting ready for a nasty session of sanding and grinding so that I can start doing what you are, that is, putting tops on my bunks, I also discovered a fillet that I put in and did not go back and clean up which will require so time. Don't remember if I mentioned it but I did end up glassing the whole interior up to the gunnels.
AAARRRGGH. :oops:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:45 am
by Spokaloo
Doug, here is another position to look at:

The transom may end up cut down to 15", but the F bulkhead is still full height. Worst case scenario you have a wave slop into the motorwell, but the F bulkhead is much higher. Just make the splashwell slope steep so it drains quickly and I think you will be fine.

Most motors can tolerate a swamping of less than a few seconds, and with the buoyancy of that boat, you would be fine.

If you need the motor below a cowl, I don't see a problem cutting her down to 15"

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:19 pm
by Dougster
Dang I've let 4 weeks go by without posting. Wish I could say I splashed her, but, well...I'm still plugging away on the cabin bunk tops. Got the hatches cut and ready. I decided the compartment where the porta potty goes could use a bit more fairing. So here's the end of that effort:

Image

It's that middle compartment filling up most of the pic. Now, you may notice there is some of the cream color of my beloved Quickfair, and then some odd reddish coloration too. Well, after three score years I still amaze myself. Yesterday I put on the fairing with the intention of sanding it this morning. I grabbed a bucket of Quickfair, mixed, spread, and felt generally pleased with my fool self. This morning I hop down to the shop for a quick and easy 15 minute sanding job. Well a few minutes into the sanding I notice it's a bit slow going. Only then do I click to the red color! Red? Dang it I faired with my bucket of EZ fillet :roll: God almighty, a waste of product and, may I add, a very substandard fairing material. Stuff sands like iron and I spent an hour workin' that little bit. How in the world could I have not noticed I was using the wrong stuff?? Oh well, here's half of the bunk tops with the hatches (underside view).

Image

After the sanding job I went and got the camera to take these pics. Shirley was in the garden, it was a beautiful fall Texas day, so I shot these pics of her garden, and her.

Image

Image

I didn't even tell her my fool story. Wouldn't surprise her :)

Says two steps forward and one back is still goin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:33 pm
by Spokaloo
Bout time Doug!

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:54 pm
by Daddy
Well Dougster, I guess you are the first person to ever make a mistake :D Cant say I ever have. Nice job on your cleats, I tend to not get such tight fits. I dry fitted my cockpit sole today and decided that I would concentrate on everything aft of frame C and then move fwd. I need to lay some foam and then the sole, then side decks and coaming, slow going on my end, glad you are making progress. Seeing your garden reminds me of Texas and my time at Ft. Hood, the only place I ever stood in the rain and had dust blow in my face at the same time, bunch of funny looking fellows with mud running down our faces, kinda miss that 117 in the shade some times when it gets 35 below 0 up here in the North Country. Keep on Dougster.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:37 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Looks like you're moving right along over there. Don't worry about the EZ fillet, you can use that massive upper body strength :D to sand it down. Shirley certainly has a green thumb to have such a good looking garden given how dry it was this year until recently.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:43 am
by Dougster
You're right about Shirley's green thumb, John, it's sure not me. I just dig where she points. I did put in the rain water drip system, which is fed by 4500 gallons of tanks off the workshop and an on demand pump. That was pre boat building days and a fun, worthwhile project. I hired my betters to put in the fence and beds. And yep, that compartment is faired and coated with pigmented epoxy today. I simply put my massive upper body strength to use (with some assistance from the RO and Fein Multimaster :) ) That Fein is pricey but, once owned sure is a keeper. For the $$ it'd better see me out.

Eric, thanks for stayin' on board. You've become an old friend I never met :lol: Your blog is always worth a check in and it's fun to see that pretty thing come together. Daddy---are you doing the deck before the consoles? I need to get my head around the console design. As shown the wheel seems a little low to me, and I wonder if the 11 5/8" depth is sufficient for the teleflex cable turns (throttle and steering). I have never laid hands on them and don't visualize it well. Maybe I need to buy the steering and cables for it now. Eric, did you build your consoles as designed? Seems like I recall you saying you wouldn't mind the wheel being a little higher, but you're several inches closer to those rafters in your shop than I am (I'm 5' 11' and shrinking).

One last thing. I want to paint the footwell in the cabin before I glue down the bunk tops. I toy with these choices:
1) Sterling---for durability and practice using it, but it may be slippery?
2) Kirby---for ease of application (I lean toward it for the hull, not deck and cockpit). Same slippery question.
3) Kiwigrip---wear, not slippery, but more a pain to clean. Foot traffic will get it dirty and you can't power wash it easily.

If folks have thoughts on any of these issues come on aboard.

Loves fall in Texas Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:55 am
by Spokaloo
Kiwigrip.... on a walking surface, no question.

The consoles are plenty deep enough fore and aft for your cabling, but for my 6'3" frame, I'd like the wheel about 8" higher than it is. Here is a very viable option for your boat if you like the east coast style steering:

Image

Putting it up on top of the console can be pretty handy.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:05 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, yes, I am putting my consoles on top of the sole and I think you can get by with less than 11 inches if you need to, on my GT22 I got the steering into a 6 inch console. I will put the wheel centered at about 36 inches, like to have it at a comfortable height when standing. I dont think I would use kiwi on the inside of compartments although it would hide my crappy fairing (still have more to do). I am a bit shorter than you, 5' 10" used to be 6 feet, talk about shrinking :cry: however if I put some kind of roof over the helm I can keep it lower. I have really modified heck out of the motor well and all that stuff, will post some pics on my blog in the near future.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:07 pm
by Daddy
PS Eric, is that some kind of Ninegret in the picture?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:17 pm
by Spokaloo
Built over across the pond several years ago. That's the boat that showed what 50hp can do in her hull.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:09 pm
by Daddy
Eric, if I remember you did not put in a scupper or drain, do you think the sole is above the WL when the boat is at rest, I know it is supposed to be self bailing but it must be very close. :doh:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:13 pm
by chicagoross
Glad to see you back on the board, Dougster, and glad to see your Nina progressing! I like the hard cabin top on the Ninigrette that Eric posted, along with the open cabin back. Anyone had any other ideas on the cabin version Ninas being built?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:26 pm
by Dougster
I love that cabin pic Eric posted. He's shown it before and it sure works. Daddy, are you gonna do the console then the side decks or the console first? My C bulkhead cabin opening is around 30" from the sole so the console would be higher than the opening. No good I'd think, but that's first blush. Of course I could just raise the opening. I'll go back and look at Mulletchoker's gallery---he had different designs for the port and starboard console and it's pretty slick. Let us know when you update your blog, Daddy. Hey, Chicago, that hardtop is the look I like. Only worry for me is weight. Jacques spends time talkin' about keeping her light and specifies canvas, so maybe 1/4" hard top with minimal beams. Any ideas on light and strong are welcome. I mean, someday someone will step up on it I guess 8O I put coat of S3 primer in the footwell this afternoon. Got two bad runs but I'll scrape 'em a little. It's not much of a fairing job, but I'm through with it. It's a footwell and mostly in shadow. The floor of it may be covered by the insert to fill the hole for sleep overs anyway.

Thinkin' about consoles Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:57 pm
by chicagoross
Jacques spends time talkin' about keeping her light
That's what has kept me from building this for the last two years; though I love the design: partly my own demonstrated epoxy usage, and partly because I'd like a bit more permanent cabin as well. Only marine ply here is fir, which is also more weight and more epoxy.

This is a very glass-intensive build, multiple layers of tape and glass, much more than the simple HMD that I built. Can the 4 builders on this board share their epoxy usage? I know Eric has more cumulative building experience than the rest of us, including a bunch of crafts intended to be lightweight. How much past the BOM 15 gallons was cloud cap?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:34 pm
by Spokaloo
Ross, I think you are overestimating your weight. Even in fir and with excess epoxy usage (which you will do better on this time, I guarantee), you will only add maybe 100lbs at best. This isn't a deal breaker in the least on this hull. I find she's the best mannered with 4 people aboard, giving the best ride and most comfort. When she's light, she's fast, but you won't be running that hard out in your area.

Im gonna pitch you to build Nina, with a 30-50 hp suzuki 4 stroke (the lightest outboards in their size class) or an Etec of the same size, hard sides with the canvas roof as designed, and fir for your framing battens. She will be perfect for your use, esp if you lay her out like this:

Image

Image

Add a little canvas bimini over that windshield and you have a decent shelter for monsoon season.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:13 pm
by Dougster
How in heck did they seal that windshield over the canvas? It means the canvas won't come off for sure. I like the canvas look ok but dunno how to do it and don't have too much interest. What's the benefit of canvas over 1/4 ply? Seems like 20 or 30 pounds, no more, but that's a wild guess. I like the windshield, 'cuz like you say, Eric, that lends itself to a nice little bimini/dodger and Bob's your uncle.

Dunno who the heck Bob is Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:30 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, yep, console first, then side decks is my plan. Also giving serious thought to putting closed cell floatation foam under the side decks, not a big expense and might insure "upright floatation". I will try to post some pics on my blog, maybe tomorrow
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:50 pm
by chicagoross
Thanks, Eric, that is pretty much the cabin/windshield combo I had envisioned, (pretty much my minimum requirements due to constant it's either raining or frying your brains out weather) except with a 1/4" cabin roof (like Dougster said, how much weight are we really talking about for a sheet of 1/4" ply?) but if I go ahead and build there will be several cabin versions already in use to get ideas from.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:53 pm
by Daddy
Hey Ross, yes, Nina, that's the boat for you! The more the merrier. I am going for the 1/4 ply roof too. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:12 am
by chicagoross
I still haven't heard any confessions of how many gallons of epoxy.... :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:52 am
by Daddy
Sorry, I have no idea how many gallons I have used so far, I do know that I am using far less than I did on my GT23. Wetting out tape off the boat saves a lot, when I glassed the outside of the hull I squeegeed the heck out of it, I think we did the outside with less than 3 gallons. I have probably used 9 gallons so far, still have more to go. :doh:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:28 am
by Spokaloo
Ross, I was supposed to use 15, I used the better part of 18.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:32 pm
by chicagoross
Daddy, a GT23 should give you a fair amount of glassing experience! :D Very good job, Eric, I'm about 4-5 boats away from being that experienced! Although I doubled the amount for my HMD, there were a lot of "extras", and of course the Epoxy was used for everything - graphite bottom instead of bottom paint (so there's 3 more coats), filet mix, and fairing compound (no quickfair, just "blended filler". Nina's a lot more "glassy", though, everything's double or triple taped instead of single.

I just checked Mullet Choker's Nina photos, I see he did put the canvas top on, wish we could get some more details on that. Sure looks like he's having fun with that 40 Yamaha!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:33 pm
by Daddy
MC's Nina is a great tutorial on the build along with Spoke's. Nina is a great compromise between speed and economy IMHO and a beauty to look at, great lines, everybody that stops by to see my effort comment on it. Hope I can deliver.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:58 pm
by Dougster
Nina is a looker, least she is to me. I'm at about 17 gallons already 8O 'Course there's goofs and too dang much sanding. Heck I wet sanded that dang graphite bottom twice. While I'm gabbin' here, any of you guys know how to get hold of a sterling color chart? The link I find when I search it here won't work and I want a hard, true copy anyway. I found a phone number of Detco or something like that I'll try tomorrow. I scraped some epoxy runs in the potty compartment tonight. Scraped too much, had to mix some more pigmented resin and touch it up. 17.someodd gallons now. Didn't make it one bit better looking, and what was I doing anyway? I mean it's the potty compartment!! Ah well, just sayin' how the resin goes. Keep us in the loop on your console Daddy.

Glad for the Nina company Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:00 pm
by Cracker Larry
Dougster, I've got a Sterling color chart. Shoot me an email to LTeuton at aol dot com and I'll send it to you.

I used more than 17 gallons on my OD18 :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:13 pm
by chicagoross
Didn't make it one bit better looking, and what was I doing anyway? I mean it's the potty compartment!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:40 am
by Daddy
Dougster, speaking of the potty compartment, I did the same thing as MC, added another frame fwd of the potty to help contain it in one spot otherwise I suppose it would wander....
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:56 pm
by Dougster
Yeah Daddy, I did the same thing. Also, I didn't make a hinged hatch like the plans, just a drop hatch and am raising the porta potty up to just below that level. Yes, I sat on it to check it out and got the wife to do the same. No pics of that :roll:
Oh yeah, you got it right Chicago. Sometimes you just gotta step back and laugh. Larry, I'll send you an e-mail, that would be nice, thanks. Gotta paint that footwell so I can glue the dang bunk tops down and move on.

On a mission Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:04 am
by Daddy
Speaking of the potty and hard top cabin, I plan to put a hatch which will be right above the potty. I will be able to use it standing up, head an shoulders out in the breeze. :P
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:08 pm
by Dougster
Well, I'm not sure I can spell it Daddy, but that's got panache. Stand a man! I can see folks now: "what's that guy doing, getting ready to set anchor?" In truth I have thought about a hatch on top up forward and wondered if it would work for just that secondary purpose...setting anchor I mean.

Larry sent me the Sterling color chart (thanks Larry) and I'm gonna pour over 'em all and pick Matterhorn White. Then I'm gonna re-think it, ponder awhile, and order some Matterhorn White. I've decided the foot well is a good first effort spot and if I want I can add a couple of Kiwi no slip spots there where it counts. Now, on the console thing. I checked out Mullet's wonderful gallery and see the reason behind his asymmetrical consoles. By making the starboard one higher, he got the wheel and gauges up where he wanted them. Maybe the asymmetry bothers me, but then maybe symmetry is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Raises a glass to a man with panache Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:27 am
by Cracker Larry
I'm gonna pour over 'em all and pick Matterhorn White. Then I'm gonna re-think it, ponder awhile, and order some Matterhorn White.
:lol: Sam says you'll really like the Matterhorn White :wink:

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:34 am
by Daddy
Dougster wrote:Well, I'm not sure I can spell it Daddy, but that's got panache. Stand a man! I can see folks now: "what's that guy doing, getting ready to set anchor?" In truth I have thought about a hatch on top up forward and wondered if it would work for just that secondary purpose...setting anchor I mean.

Raises a glass to a man with panache Dougster
Dougster, I figure that you could stand on the hatch/cover for the potty and maybe set the anchor from that hatch. I dont plan to put in the windows on the cabin the way MC did, just a couple of round or diamond shaped fixed ports near the head of the bunks and use the fwd hatch for ventilation. I have posted a couple of new pics on my blog. Frame C is about 36 inches above the sole and the opening that you see will be a bit wider (20") and open thru the arc so that it will be easy to step down into the footwell. I thought I had a pic of the two extra frames that I put in below the sole but didnt download it. :oops:
That Matterhorn white sure is pretty.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:49 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, you may have to go back into "older posts" to see my nina, I have posted some more info on my newest acquisition, a 1946 Penn Yan.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:44 pm
by MulletChoker
Still here.
Sorry for being away so long, boats, kids, house, wife... you know.
Reading through the last few pages of the thread, I thought I'd put in a few cents: Our Nina, now christened the 'Betty Allison' has proven better than expected. A few comments on the cabin top and hatches: for us, the soft top is ideal, it provides a very snug cabin when in place, but when removed gives folks a nice place to ride sitting or standing, keeps the crew weight forward also. We ended up having a second cover made that zips on to the aft edge of the cabin top and covers the console and cabin opening. This is mostly for when the boat is stored to keep blowing rain and itenerant birdlife out of the cabin. We thought about a hatch in the fore deck and still may install one but it could only be used for ventilation as there's not enough room to wiggle your torso out to do any anchor line handling unless you're a 9 y/o acrobat. Having the ability to roll the canvas top back allows you to walk forward and lean over to reach the foredeck.
Our 'portapotty' area just has a drop in cover and we use a 5 gal bucket. And with the top down, it's an airy experience.
For cockpit seating we are still using fold-up canvas chairs, if we need fishing room the chairs go into the cabin, folded.
Sitting in the cockpit with the boat running about 3/4 throttle (18 knts) the boat reminds me very much of (real)lobster boats I have ridden on in Fisher Island Sound, very solid, spray shooting out from amidships aft, but never a drop in the boat.
You LB22 guys are in for a treat!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:00 pm
by Daddy
MC, I plan to put my ventilation hatch in the actual cabin roof, not the foredeck. I have stood on the potty lid and can reach nicely out into the foredeck, I agree it would take a contortionist to get out of one in the foredeck. Looking forward to being able to share the Nina experience with you, Dougster and Eric and who knows how many others, I think ChicagoRoss is leaning that way. :P
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:17 am
by Dougster
Hey MC, glad to hear from you, and of course glad to hear how well your Nina is doing. I suppose your canvas top snaps on. As I have no experience of such I wonder if it tends to stretch out over time and how well the snaps hold. I suppose I could talk to a canvass guy for more info, since there are a couple around the nearby local lake. I get how nice it could be to "pop the top" on fair days. Today I'll finish the drop hatch for the porta potty compartment. Yesterday I put a second coat of primer on the foot well, so I'm ready to glue in the bunk/seat tops except I haven't even ordered any paint yet and want to paint the foot well before gluing down the top. Lots to do, I don't see how you guys move so fast. Anyway, it's a beautiful, clear 23 degree morning here in the hill country and I've got the little heater going in the shop, getting things warmed up for a pleasant couple of hours down there this a.m.

Happy to make even a little progress Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:29 am
by Steven
Dougster wrote:Hey MC, glad to hear from you, and of course glad to hear how well your Nina is doing. I suppose your canvas top snaps on. As I have no experience of such I wonder if it tends to stretch out over time and how well the snaps hold. I suppose I could talk to a canvass guy for more info, since there are a couple around the nearby local lake. I get how nice it could be to "pop the top" on fair days. Today I'll finish the drop hatch for the porta potty compartment. Yesterday I put a second coat of primer on the foot well, so I'm ready to glue in the bunk/seat tops except I haven't even ordered any paint yet and want to paint the foot well before gluing down the top. Lots to do, I don't see how you guys move so fast. Anyway, it's a beautiful, clear 23 degree morning here in the hill country and I've got the little heater going in the shop, getting things warmed up for a pleasant couple of hours down there this a.m.

Happy to make even a little progress Dougster

Hey Dougster,

Did you get any snow yesterday? Figures the weekend I want to epoxy/graphite the bottom we hit the coldest temps we've seen yet. The Canvas won't stretch and loosen. Just the opposite. It tends to shrink some and should remain taught.
Steven

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:08 pm
by Dougster
Hey Steve, I'm just postin' progress and still haven't finally decided on canvass or hard top. Leaning hard 'cuz maybe a hatch would let me pop up and work the anchor. Anyway, great God Almighty, I finished the dang cabin seat tops. How could they have taken so long? Well, anyway, here they are dry fit:

Image

What a trip all that was, including the supporting bulkheads, cleats, and fuel tank install underneath, but it fits. I'd love to glue 'em in but want to paint the foot well first. Tomorrow I'll order Kirby paint for the footwell/cabin, as I decided against the pricey 2 part stuff for the cabin. I felt so good about finishing the seat tops that I found the courage to grind away on the bow in order to fit the bow eye:

Image

Image

Here's the backing block. I found a table leg chunk of hard wood for less than 3 bucks at HD. I twisted out the lag screw/bolt on one end, cut off those 2 inches, beveled on the table saw, sanded, and ended up with this chunk of backing block. Thank you Cracker Man Larry for those nice pics to refer to for figuring stuff like this out.

Image

Fun day on the boat, with full sun and 70 degrees! Opened up the shop doors, wore a t shirt, and felt good all day. The last several days were misty, gloomy, and 40's for highs. God loves Texas.

Or at least I do Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:13 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, are you going to use a conventional portable potty? If yours is anything like mine and you are going to put it in that howl fwd of the footwell you might want to take a look at how it flushes. On mine you need to pull a handle out near the bottom to allow the waste to fall through and the rinse water to follow it down, or if you are using a sheetrock pail, no probs. I plan to cut a hole to allow access to that handle otherwise hard to flush. Your work looks great, nice to have the cabin berth tops ready to go in. I just barely finished putting in my cabin cleats, still have lots of grinding to do in that area, have dry fitted my cockpit sole and am working on framing for the foredeck and cabin top, still a long way to go, definitely going with a hard top and a hatch right over the potty. Nothing like a breath of fresh air.
Got the new copy of WB and the companiion magazine with the display of boats you can build with some pretty nice stuff in it. BTW I posted a couple of pics on my blog, not sure if I mentioned it or not before.
Keep up the great work,
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:07 pm
by Steven
Looking great. It was a beautiful day today. Rolled mine outside for some sanding. Nice thing about Texas. Don't like the weather today, just wait for tomorrow. :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:28 pm
by Dougster
You're sure right about just wait a day Steve, we're back to fog and drizzle again today. Not a problem since I went to work and didn't spent any time on Nina, except for a short hour just now, fiddling with the front bow compartment. Daddy, I know what you're talking about. It occurred to me a few weeks ago in the middle of the night. "How am I gonna flush that porta potty?" :) Odd how you think of things at night, just laying there. Anyway, I first thought well, dang, I'll cut a long thin oval hole to match where the pull handle on the porta potty is (it's the smallest Thetford). Then I thought maybe not. The thing is not tall enough the way I've rigged the compartment and hatch (legs hanging over the bulkhead when sitting on it), so I am making a little stand for it. Nothing but a piece of ply with some 2 by 2 runners under it. There's room to just stand up (well, half stand), turn around, push the unit back and then pull the valve. Probably will need two attachments on the bulkhead for a bungee cord or some such to hold in place when not in use.

BTW, I've been looking at your pics. What are the two shutter looking things leaning against bulkhead C? And it looks like you've already put a piece across the front top of the cabin to make the camber? So you're figuring on two cabin roof hatches, one for entrance and one forward? Keep those pics coming. I cut Bulkhead C to the plans dimensions, so there's a wider entrance for now. The consoles seem a bit short to me, at least the starboard one. They'd be fine for sitting on a stool or some such and steering, but standing would leave the wheel a bit low for me. I hope to rough out the starboard console as designed with my cheapo luan this weekend for a look. This sure is a fun part of the build.

'bout ready to order another last batch of epoxy Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:14 pm
by Daddy
Last batch of epoxy? Dougster, there is no last batch... there is only the next boat and more batches :D
The arch piece over the opening on C will be cut out in the center, the shutter thingies will make the bifold door to the cabin (picket them up in a salvage yard for $4). I am going to weigh stuff once I start on the cabin roof, I cant believe there will be much at all. Yes, a hatch right over the potty and one to aid in stepping down into the cabin. I really need to get more pics on my blog, first I gotta take them :oops: You are right about the consoles being too low to comfortably use standing up, I am putting my wheel at about 36" (center of shaft).
Your build is coming great, still not sure about how you are doing your porta loo, that bungee cord might get caught in something and cause great pain :doh:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:09 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, the way I did my potty set up was to cut a 4" lip out of the top edge of B where the potty goes and I will attach that piece to the lid so that when the lid (hatch) is off or open if you hinge it legs will not have to rest on B and the potty can remain fwd of B and not be moved around, you might still be able to do that with yours, just a bit more tinkering.
I have made a departure from standard procedure re: foam under the sole. I have a whole pile of 2 inch pink board which I cut to fit in each of the spaces between frames and stringers and I will adhere it to the hull with foam board adhesive (PL300). Should make for a quiet ride and saved me a couple hundred in materials. Not sure if that is approved procedure but I like it.
Really cold here this AM, 6 below 0 degrees F. Not conducive to working in my shop and I don't want the woodpile to shrink too fast.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:11 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, the way I did my potty set up was to cut a 4" lip out of the top edge of B where the potty goes and I will attach that piece to the lid so that when the lid (hatch) is off or open if you hinge it legs will not have to rest on B and the potty can remain fwd of B and not be moved around, you might still be able to do that with yours, just a bit more tinkering.
I have made a departure from standard procedure re: foam under the sole. I have a whole pile of 2 inch pink board which I cut to fit in each of the spaces between frames and stringers and I will adhere it to the hull with foam board adhesive (PL300). Should make for a quiet ride and saved me a couple hundred in materials. Not sure if that is approved procedure but I like it.
Really cold here this AM, 6 below 0 degrees F. Not conducive to working in my shop and I don't want the woodpile to shrink too fast.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:16 pm
by ks8
Just saw those latest pictures Dougster. Wow! She's really getting there! Feels good to fit those seat tops, eh? :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:26 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Lookin' good over there! You're on the home stretch for sure. Sure glad that HD is around, good stuff to practice with and for those odd little pieces like the table leg. Last batch of epoxy? :roll: :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:42 am
by Dougster
KS you're sure right about those seat tops. I'll feel even better when I glue 'em in, which is soon. I'm waiting on some Kirby paint for the foot well (decided against Sterling there). As soon as the paint dries it's glue down the tops. John, it's time you get going with that boatport! Not that I've done a thing regarding mine. I'm still spending too much $$ on "last" batches of epoxy :) Let's try to get together over the holidays, it's been a while.

Daddy, I think your way is probably the best, sounds like what is drawn in the plans. In mine your legs hang over the B bulkhead, but the potty is raised almost level with it and fits right up against it. Then move aside, push the potty back a bit and pull the flush valve. The bungee cord thing is only for holding the potty in place while under way.

Right now I'm immersed in the console thing. It's tough 'cuz I've realized the console as drawn in the plans doesn't suit me. I want to be able to stand and steer at times, for the best angle of view over the cabin top. I can't just make it taller 'cuz it has a flat top and that seems weird to put gauges on a horizontal surface where water could stand. It does have to be taller for sure, which shrinks the opening above into the cabin. I think you are gonna do away with that opening, right Daddy? Just have a sealed cabin with those shutter doors and the sailboat style sliding hatch to make entry easier? Without that hatch the entrance may be tough, especially with no opening above the consoles. Not sure. I look at MulletChoker's pic a lot and may go with something like that. He made the two consoles differently, so it's an asymmetrical look, but then why should the consoles be the same? They have different functions. I'm at sea with it for now :) I did rough in the console as designed and that helps. Gotta love that $11 HD luan and a glue gun.

Studyin' consoles Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:09 am
by Daddy
Yep, I'm going to have a closed cabin, the hatches will both be lift type, not sliders. The console on the port side will be about 6 inches deep, just enough for the steering, not too many gauges with a 25/30 hp, maybe just a tach. The consoles will both have nearly flat tops (just enough to drain rainwater) at about 40 inches above the sole with a fiddle around the edges, stbd side same dimensions but will open up for a mini galley, I just bought a Forespar gimballed stove for there (Defender, on sale for $119). Wish it was just a bit warmer out in the shop. :help:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:10 am
by Dougster
Neat idea, using one console for a little galley. Are you saying you're gonna have the helm on the port side? My shop's warm enough but I'm stalling around here with this console design. 40" sounds like plenty, but that'd pretty well close in the cabin behind the console. Maybe I'm not sure why I need that area behind the console open anyway. Sounds like you're gonna mount the wheel on the vertical face of the console, with gauges there too or on that slightly canted, fiddled top? I'm educating myself on this, but it takes time.

Muddling along on this Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:15 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, gauges are designed to be wet. Don't worry about having them on a horizontal surface in the rain, it's not a big deal. If you are really worried, get the Faria gauges that have the domed glass on them, as they will shed water more effectively.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:35 pm
by chicagoross
I'll be interested in seeing everyone's console solutions. I get a backache when I look at pictures of Eric standing up steering, but then he's a tall guy. But it sure seems like you shouldn't have to bend down to grab the wheel.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:45 pm
by Dougster
Boy do I hear you Chicago! And thanks for the peace of mind re horizontal gauges, Eric, that convinces me. I'm just gonna keep the console as planned, with the flat top and either raise it a bit or not. Here's two pics with mock ups. First, as designed with a 24" stool in front of it.

Image

Now here's the same thing raised 3.5"

Image

So I gotta decide and it ain't easy. I like the lower one better. That 24" stool is a good height to sit and steer. In the original console (first pic), I'm wondering how far above the console I can fit the wheel in. If it sticks up say, 3" above the console, that would be at around 32" to the wheel top. It's not too bad for me (5' 11" but shrinking). Anybody got thoughts? Maybe split the difference between the two...

He dunno yet Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:06 pm
by Spokaloo
Don't rule out that you can make the back half taller than the front to give a water shedding, sloped top surface. I have a little slope on mine, and it works out nicely.

Yes, I do have to slouch a little, but at 6'3" tall, I'm out of the ordinary.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:59 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
The boatport is going to start shortly, SWMBO says I need a project to get me out of the house (I guess outside the house counts :D ). So I'm off to McCoy's to order wood, etc. and the roof panels (special order) this week. I have switched boats, decided to do something a little smaller for the 1st boat so its going to be the GV13. I actually ordered plans for it a couple months ago after looking at Madrus' GV13. I figured the smaller boat will be an easier build to start with and will be good for using around smaller lakes as well as easier to trailer. More on that later, I'll be starting a new thread on the GV13. Lets plan on getting together over the holidays for sure.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:25 pm
by Daddy
:oops: Got my port and stb mixed there Dougster, helm will be on the stb side of course. I imagine that I will do at least half of my steering standing up. My cabin will be mainly for using the porta potty, sleeping and changing clothes and so dont see any reason to have it so open. Open = curtains, etc. to use as I plan. I am thinking that a 24 inch height for the helm seat is too low to see over the top of the cabin. The one I have in FESTIVUS is more like 32 inches high and it has a place to put your feet, I think that would work on Nina too, I'll have to try it and see. Gosh, I spend more time pondering than building some (most) days.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:23 pm
by Dougster
That was a timely post for me Daddy, as it got me to remember a question I had put aside. Why have the open cabin behind the console? Yes for privacy curtains would be needed there. The only use for the opening there I can see is for appearance or ventilation. Seems like the door left open or opened if there is one and a hatch would take care of ventilation. Also, I thought more about the cabin roof and the view and figured, well, the consoles just gotta come up some. I rough mocked in a 34" console and it is tall enough for me to reach the wheel. Next I took a little time and made two 36" luan consoles, with a backsplash to fill in the cabin. Here's the look.

Image

Image

I dunno, it may look a little out of proportion, but I can't visualize what the combing, deck, and cabin top will do. What do folks think? After I nail down the height, I gotta make sure there's room on top for throttle, sonar, and gauges (tack, trim/tilt, fuel, maybe fuel meter). I know I spend more time pondering than building, like way more :) Anyway, thoughts on the look so far, I'm sure not married to it yet.

Doin' my typical head scratch thing Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:49 pm
by Daddy
Taking shape Dougster, what about making the top of your stb console go up at a 30 or 45 degree angle and putting your gauges there, then you could easily read them from sitting or standing? I really like the basic look you have there, how deep are they, looks like about a foot. As far as ventilation goes, imagine the percentage of open space to cabin size on your boat compared to your house, it would be like having a garage door for a front door. Lots of ventilation with the opening you have, needs some camber in the top though for that cabin roof. The combing needs to start at the top of your console and come down in a gentle curve to a couple of inches above the side decks. Can't remember but I think that is what MC did with his. I think my consoles will only be about 8 inches deep, not sure of course, more pondering required. :help:
I have been gluing down my rigid foam in the spaces under the sole and hope to install the sole soon. Be great to have that out of the way.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:25 pm
by Cracker Larry
Agree with Daddy that it needs some angles and curves. Like he said, the gauges will be easier to read while sitting or standing if they are on a slant. You still need some flat area for putting down your beer, notebook and pencil too. And space for GPS/plotter and fish finder. I would also give the area where the wheel is some slant, it will be more comfortable like that, then slope the lower part of it back in for some leg room. There is no reason for the helm side to exactly match the passenger side.

I'll try to draw a sketch of what I'm talking about.
I think my consoles will only be about 8 inches deep, not sure of course, more pondering required.
That won't be deep enough to house the steering head and controls/cables unless it's going to be wide open in the back. I'd want to be able to close off all the wires and cables from the cabin side if it were me. 12" is about the minimum you could get away with. I can measure how far mine protrude if it would help yall.

Edit: a quick and dirty sketch of what I'm saying, not to scale, just as an idea..

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:40 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, when do you want to be done?

I'd drop just a few inches from the aft end, giving you something like 10 degrees of slope for the top panels. I'd hang the wheel either off the front for a vertical wheel, or set it on top for an east coast look. Throttle needs to be conceptualized, because I mounted mine in a place where it hits passengers in the head if seated in front of me. Oops. My personal preference is for vertically mounted wheels because little course corrections are easy with a single hand resting on the top of the wheel. 12" will provide lots of room for gauges, just be cognizant of the throttle sweep and location.

I don't see a problem with the gauge panel as shown above, sloped out to hold everything. Looks nice, just more complexity, more time, more materials, etc. If it does something for you aesthetically, great, do it.

It's your boat, so don't let us design it for you by committee. Get input, decide, charge ahead. Get that piggy done so you can be out on the water this coming summer!

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:35 pm
by Cracker Larry
My personal preference is for vertically mounted wheels because little course corrections are easy with a single hand resting on the top of the wheel.
You can do the same thing with an angled wheel if you mount it at the right height :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:46 pm
by Dougster
Spokaloo wrote:Doug, when do you want to be done ?E
Done 8O You mean I'm 'sposed to finish this thing? Heck then I'd have to start another one :lol: All advice is very welcome indeed, and I'll muddle my way into something. Larry, I've looked at that shape you just drew a lot (thanks for all that trouble BTW). I like it but not from the front. Look at it that way and it's kinda odd, given the shape of my console front. It'd be great for a symmetrical center console. I may just make that front edge vertical making it more simple,and put in a toe kick if need be. Too much slant drops the leading edge and lowers the wheel. I know the common look is for the wheel on a slant, but vertical seems kinda retro and cool too. Probably wouldn't need a toe kick that way. If I forgo a horizontal surface I like Mulletchokers a lot. Here's a link to a pic of it in his gallery.

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage ... 8&uid=9035

Pretty nice. I wonder how high the leading edge is. To get the horizontal area I'd need to deepen it. I poked around on the Teleflex site and found some sketches with dimensions. Looks to me like the NFB Safe-T II depth is 5 5/8", so a foot is deep enough I think. 'Course I'm tending to think things to death. It's nice using the luan to mock up things. I'll fiddle with 'em a bit more, but gotta decide. I mean, Nina does want to get wet.

Wants to make her happy Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:02 pm
by Cracker Larry
vertical seems kinda retro and cool too.
That's just a matter of preference, a many thousand vessels have been built with a vertical wheel and a toe kick. Not a thing wrong with it. If you put any gauges on the same panel as the helm, the slope helps you to see them, but heck, you can stoop down a little if you need to read them :lol:

A foot is probably deep enough. The throttle/shift mechanism is deeper than the steering head, almost twice as deep, and the cables need about a 12" bend radius, so it really depends on where you put the throttle/shift as to how much depth you need. The steering cable enters the steering head from the side, on the upper starboard side. The control cables enter the control box from directly below it.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:20 pm
by Daddy
Larry, if you use a top mount throttle control and the cables come into it on the bottom, wouldn't 8 inches be enough? Just trying to picture it. In the past I have always installed the usual controls that come with the motor, you know, the side mount with the key and emergency shut off all built in. That could go on the coaming but I really like the look of the top mount, just have never done one before. Maybe I need to buy the controls before I finalize the design of the console. That would solve the problem that E had with it going too far forward. On the other hand, dont know why I am hung up on 8 inches, just trying to maximize the cockpit space, but what is 4 inches. :doh:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:13 pm
by Dougster
"...what is 4 inches" Now there's joke there I'm sure :) It is funny, cuz I've been locked on 12 inches. No reason, it's just what I settled on. Jacques specifies 11 5/8". Must be a designer thing. Anyway we round up here in Texas. I like 12" 'cuz it leaves 6'5" in the cockpit behind the the console, should you ever wish to convert to a camp/cruisor thing with canvass and bunks on each side. Still, I lean to stretch it closer to 16" or 18" and having a slant front for the gauges and 6" level after that with a 4 or 5 inch back splash. Still with a vertical wheel and top (angled some, with the gauges) throttle.

Says 4 inches is enough for trouble Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:08 am
by Cracker Larry
Larry, if you use a top mount throttle control and the cables come into it on the bottom, wouldn't 8 inches be enough?
I'll measure in the morning exactly how much you need, but yes, if it is mounted on a horizontal shelf the cables will enter from directly below. I'm thinking the control box itself is near or longer than 8" though. I'll let you know in the morning.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:52 pm
by TomW
Larry if you haven't gone out yet I pulled up the manual I have saved. The portion of the control below the mounting box is 7 3/4" Dougster. Just a thought have you considered a side mount control with the console on the side. The 1700 would be the equal of the 7500 for the Teleflex control. It would mount on the gunnel inwale.

Just a thought.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:22 am
by cape man
Dougster, you certainly are not overthinking this thing. Wish I had! When I went to install the binacle the control cables were jammed against the front side of the console because I did not consider the depth of the control box! Fixed it by making a 1" spacer out of walnut that is on the outside of the console, but until I figured that out I was in a panic!!! 8O 8O
Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:40 pm
by Daddy
Capeman, which brand binnacle mount did you use? I guess they all take about the same space but wonder which is best and why.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:15 pm
by kdog
I thought I was the only one that had this problem and agonized over this for a long time too. Of course this was after I built my console and installed it so I had to figure out a solution. I ended up making a spacer like capeman but I made the spacer with a wedge shape to it, similar to a door stop. The bottom edge being the thicker part helped rotate the control box forward a little which gave it a more forgiving angle for the cables.

I have the Yamaha 704 binnacle control box which also has a nice spacer at the bottom which helped. The Yamaha cables are very flexible too, they claim to be the most flexible and the tightest bend radius in the industry. Don't know if that's true though.

This is the best pic I have. The gray part is the Yamaha spacer and the white part below it (hard to see) is the one I made.

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:14 pm
by TomW
Dougster, I'll be honest I HATE verticle shifters like those on Kdogs and Craigs consoles, they are not natural and in an emergency manuever can cause seconds of lag time, there wrists are bent in an unnatural bend to use them. The controls should be no more than 45 degrees from level for and I prefer 30 degrees. On Navy ships and large boats they are about 20 degrees. Think about a car and how your hand falls right to the control that is how it should be on your boat.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:53 pm
by cape man
My binacle is a Yamaha as well. Really smooth and built solid.
Dougster, I'll be honest I HATE verticle shifters like those on Kdogs and Craigs consoles, they are not natural and in an emergency manuever can cause seconds of lag time, there wrists are bent in an unnatural bend to use them.
Neither mine nor kdog's is vertical (90 degrees).

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:14 pm
by TomW
But dang close to it. :D

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:32 am
by Dougster
Thanks to everyone for the input. I've been out of pocket since Tuesday, doing the wife's family Christmas thing and haven't checked in here. This morning I can get back to Nina. I feel a lean toward Mulletchoker's solution more and more, with some adjustment. Something will come. Meanwhile it's time to sand the primer in the foot well and paint it, so I can glue down the cabin seat tops. My latest last batch of epoxy has arrived, along with some more gelmagic, so I got "no excuses".

Hopin' everyone's having a good holiday season Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:50 pm
by Daddy
Glad you are back at it Dougster, that console thing is driving me batty too. I think there must be a way to mount the controller on top (maybe that's why they call it a top mount., maybe put the top of the console at a slight angle like Tom W suggested and then I can make the console just deep enough for the steering, say 6 inches or so. When I get that far along I will mock one up like you did. I still have to install the cockpit sole, still have holiday company for a few more days, then back to nina.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:30 pm
by Cracker Larry
there must be a way to mount the controller on top (maybe that's why they call it a top mount., maybe put the top of the console at a slight angle like Tom W suggested
Sure there is. You certainly can mount it on the top of the console and will have plenty of room for cable clearance. It still won't fit on a 6" console though. Mechanically speaking, top mount is simple and gives you the max space underneath for the cables. But ergonomically speaking it will wear you out having to maintain an un-natural arm and hand position for hours at a time. In choppy waters you have to constantly work the throttle and it's best if the normal running position is where your throttle hand naturally wants to rest. The same with the top of the wheel. I want to be able to stand straight, with the wheel and the normal throttle position both at the best resting height for my arms and even with each other, without having to over or under extend from full reverse to full forward.
I can make the console just deep enough for the steering, say 6 inches or so.
Thats not deep enough. I've got my Teleflex documents in front of me, and I've installed a few of these. The steering requires 5.94 inches internal. That doesn't allow for hands, fingers and tool room required to install it or to service it.

Top mount teleflex control boxes require a cut out of 5 3/4" X 2 1/2", and needs about 8" of flat surface for the outer housing. It extends 7 3/4" deep and needs another 12" below it for the cables, It ain't gonna fit in a 6" deep console.

No matter the boat size or style, you can't change human ergonomics, nor the required space for the mechanisms. Both should be allowed for. And like Tom said, the US Navy and others have spent a few million $ over 200 years figuring out the best control positions for the human body to operate efficiently :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:42 pm
by TomW
Also don't forget your throw on the control box lever. The Teleflex 7500 that Larry has and I will have needs 15" from the back of the control box to the end of the lever when at full forward, plus your fingers. :wink: You don't want to hit anyone in the back of the head if you can help it. :D

If you want to see some good ergonomics go to the Pursuit boat web site. While the steering wheel may be a various angles, the controls are always at 45 degrees or less. They know what they are doing. After all Jacques designed for them. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:52 pm
by Dougster
Tom, Larry, I take you guys to heart and keep giving the ergonomics thought. Thanks Tom for the 15" number for the throttle control. I've been wondering about that. This new iteration has that plus two or so inches. The wheel is tentatively planned to be on the slant, as is currently popular. Here's the latest iteration. Pay no attention to the port console, it will be lowered to match the front edge of the starboard one I think.

Image

This mock up is 14" deep. The slant top is 12" fore to aft, and the top horizontal shelf is 4". That puts the shelf at 39 1/2" from the sole. I had to go for a deeper console to get a 12" surface for gauges, throttle, and hopefully, wheel. Hope 12" is enough. The console wouldn't need to be so deep if I could fore go the little shelf, but I can't :) I see me futzing along, slow boat to China @ 15mph, and my coffee mug sittin' on that shelf.

Says it's all about the coffee Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:17 pm
by Cracker Larry
I see me futzing along, slow boat to China @ 15mph, and my coffee mug sittin' on that shelf.

Says it's all about the coffee Dougster
Dougster, send me your address. I've got a nice stainless coffee mug/beer holder I'd like to contribute to your build. Then when you raise a mug, you can think of me 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:44 pm
by chicagoross
You could match the passenger console to the steering console, and install a glove box door on the angled part if you want to keep symmetrical. Also the co-pilots like a grab bar there since they don't have a wheel to hang on. :D

(thread hijack alert) Since all the current Nina builders and boaters seem to cruise by this thread regularly: I keep thinking about building but haven't committed. My latest thoughts seem to involve a hard top on the cabin, windshield, and a transom-hung motor. Jacques said it could be done by switching the clamping board and associated glass tape layers from the inner transom to the outer transom, but that he didn't like it because it didn't suit the boat's style. I know Atkin drew this option for Ninigrette, haven't seen any that way, and heard he also wasn't happy with it (don't know why). I'm thinking: compensates for the heavier cabin forward weight, more aft bouyancy, more planing surface, bigger cockpit, and two less boat flips. I can live with the style issue, I've had an outboard motor hanging on the back of my boats for the last 30 years... :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:05 am
by cape man
But dang close to it.
Dougster, sorry for the hijack, but that aint right...

While the angle is certainly arbitrary, based solely on the dimensions of the top and base, and then what I thought would look nice to bring them together, it isn't close to 90 degrees. Have not measured it, but it appears closer to 30 degrees (or 60, depending on which surface you go from?). Maybe 45 degrees is the most ergonomic angle but I have had no problems even while working it constantly through some pretty good chop.

My critical dimensions were the size of the base to allow plenty of clearance on all four sides, a seat large enough to house two batteries, space behind the seat to allow for all the chase tubes, and a top just large enough to mount a gps and hold a few drinks. As I said, to do it again and better I would have made the top larger to allow for more depth for the control cables.

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:06 am
by Daddy
Cracker Larry wrote:
there must be a way to mount the controller on top (maybe that's why they call it a top mount., maybe put the top of the console at a slight angle like Tom W suggested
Sure there is. You certainly can mount it on the top of the console and will have plenty of room for cable clearance. It still won't fit on a 6" console though. Mechanically speaking, top mount is simple and gives you the max space underneath for the cables. But ergonomically speaking it will wear you out having to maintain an un-natural arm and hand position for hours at a time. In choppy waters you have to constantly work the throttle and it's best if the normal running position is where your throttle hand naturally wants to rest. The same with the top of the wheel. I want to be able to stand straight, with the wheel and the normal throttle position both at the best resting height for my arms and even with each other, without having to over or under extend from full reverse to full forward.
I can make the console just deep enough for the steering, say 6 inches or so.
Thats not deep enough. I've got my Teleflex documents in front of me, and I've installed a few of these. The steering requires 5.94 inches internal. That doesn't allow for hands, fingers and tool room required to install it or to service it.

Top mount teleflex control boxes require a cut out of 5 3/4" X 2 1/2", and needs about 8" of flat surface for the outer housing. It extends 7 3/4" deep and needs another 12" below it for the cables, It ain't gonna fit in a 6" deep console.

No matter the boat size or style, you can't change human ergonomics, nor the required space for the mechanisms. Both should be allowed for. And like Tom said, the US Navy and others have spent a few million $ over 200 years figuring out the best control positions for the human body to operate efficiently :wink:
Thanks Larry and Tom, I think what I will do is get the components, some 1/4 luan and mock it up til it feels right. Until I do that I'll be wasting my time agonizing over it. I am pretty sure that I am going with the Yamaha 25. I am also wondering if there are any handling differences with the low powered semi-displacement hull and the planing hull in a chop? Ponder on (used to say build on)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:55 am
by TomW
Craig that is vertical in ergonomics speak. It's over 60 degrees and your wrist is in an unnatural position when you have to grip and push the control into forward or reverse. Larry's wrist would have been pretty sore spending that day in the heavy stuff constantly adjusting the throttle. I'm not saying anything bad about your console just trying to help these guys make the best one.

Happy fishing and have fun on your trip :D

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:54 am
by Dougster
Well here's to Larry on his kind offer of a mug holder. I just sent you an e-mail with my address, Larry. It's a cool thing for sure. Tom, regarding the possibility of Larry having a sore wrist, we must remember he exercises it often tilting, uh, Coffee mugs. Daddy, having the components would be very, very much better. I just don't think ahead well or would have. It's cold for Texas today, upper thirties, with rain and a little sleet. Coffee sure does have it's place.

In his place Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:40 pm
by Daddy
Here is a whole nother take on the console thing
http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php ... 07#p193907 (you need to go back to page 2 to see it)
Putting it all in the cabin and losing only 4 inches of space at the head of one bunk! I plan a hard top on the roof of my cuddy so the shifter could go in the same place and as I plan to do most of my running from a standing position it should work quite nicely. So many possibilities! I really like this one. :P
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:00 pm
by TomW
Yep nice Daddy, but notice that he has a nice flat area for the throw for the controls. That is more than 4", and like Larry pointed out the box for his Teleflex is 6" alone and his steering extends 5+". The amount of space will depend on what controls you get, some will take more space.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:12 pm
by Daddy
Tom. I will have the same space for my controls, right on top of the cuddy, Yes, I think maybe an inch or two more for the steering. I believe I can do exactly the same but will wait til I get a little further along to decide, nice to see some options.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:43 pm
by Dougster
For sure the components in hand will help that Daddy. I gave short thought to using some cabin space but decided against it. If I have a 14" deep console I will put a shelf or two in them, with some access from the cabin. You know, for easy cabin storage for important things, like wallet, keys, books, etc. Anyway, here's an easy question. Should I use 3/8" ply for the console instead of 1/4"? Seems like that's right, but can't confirm it from the plans. Also, I am really wondering how much horizontal space I need to mount a sonar. The 4" I have probably won't be enough, but maybe it'll fit on the slant surface. 'Course I haven't settled on a sonar yet. I'm clueless there. My only experience was old technology (like 15 years or more), and while it was useful in the bay for navigation (as in "Oh my God, I'm running out of water, ah, there's the channel") it wasn't any use for finding fish in skinny water of course. My little bay boat only pushed past the jetties a few times for Kings and such, so I have little experience there. I need to figure what will serve me in the Texas gulf.

I just sanded and cleaned the foot well. The heater's on in the shop and in a bit I'm gonna spread some Kirby cream in the well. It's a first effort for paint, but no real worries about the little well. Nothing on the Kirby can or web site mentions how long 'till you can add a second coat. I figure on adding it in the morning, we'll see. Oh, BTW, this is rambling but have you decided on your cabin height Daddy? Right now my sides are 2" higher than the plans call for (they call for about 42", I'm at 44') There is a 1 3/4" camber specified. The 44" give bare head clearance for me at the sides, more so at center with the camber of course. Then there's the roof beams to ponder. Don't want to push up too high, both for looks and windage. Things sure get way more complicated as soon as you wander one little bit from the plans.

Not gonna wander too far Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:15 pm
by chicagoross
Things sure get way more complicated as soon as you wander one little bit from the plans.
:D Thus the all important "pondering chair"...

Got to say the angle on CapeMan's console "looks" right!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:23 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Sure is chilly (by Texas standards) today, I thought I was back on the shores of Lake Erie there for a moment. 8O Just a thought on the steering/throttle issue (this may have been discussed already), but the placement of all this has alot to do with what you are doing as far as a captain's chair is concerned. Do you plan to primarily stand at the wheel, or a lean to, or a captain's chair to sit on ? Just my $.02.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:57 pm
by Daddy
Dougster wrote: Oh, BTW, this is rambling but have you decided on your cabin height Daddy? Right now my sides are 2" higher than the plans call for (they call for about 42", I'm at 44') There is a 1 3/4" camber specified. The 44" give bare head clearance for me at the sides, more so at center with the camber of course. Then there's the roof beams to ponder. Don't want to push up too high, both for looks and windage. Things sure get way more complicated as soon as you wander one little bit from the plans.

Not gonna wander too far Dougster
Dougster, where are you measuring from? The height of the cabin roof will be an average (allowing for camber) or 34 " above the seat tops (without cushions). This is bare minimum headroom for me, plenty for the little woman so I wonder where you are measuring from for your 44"? I believe I am close to the plan specs with mine. I am 5' 10" and went for the lowest I could get away with. :doh:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:12 pm
by Dougster
44" from the top of the stringers. 3/8" less that from the sole. Again, I left extra in station C to fudge with, and I am not married to it. I'm 5' 11" so maybe I should just build her to spec, with plenty of camber. I got a coat of Kirby in the foot well today. Sure is nice, sweet smelling stuff. I keep wanting to take a sip 8O Dunno nothing about paint, but I liked this.

Gotta learn about painting Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:07 pm
by Daddy
I'll have to measure mine to see if it is the same, I think it will be pretty close. I never used Kirby, my buddy the pro boat builder uses nothing else, swears by it, me, porch paint, but I might try the Kirby.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:20 pm
by Cracker Larry
Dougster, got your address and the mug holder is on the way. For some reason I can't send email today :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:28 pm
by Daddy
OK Dougster, here are my numbers
Top of stringer (no sole) to top of C including camber is 42 1/2 measured strait up.
Bottom center of hull (inside of course) to top of C including camber is 52 1/2.
I did not measure the camber that I chose for C but it is in the neighborhood of 4 inches.
I ran two 2" by 3/8 "beams" from the front of the trunk cabin to C 20 inches apart (10" each from the center line)
I will double those up. There will be a hatch at C, 16 X 20 and one at the front of the cabin 20 X 20.
No windows, two small fixed portlights, one on each side of the cabin.
I will have just bare sitting headroom.
I wont cut the full opening in C until after I put the roof on the cabin.
The cabin roof will extend about 6 inches into the cockpit to meet the console which will be on the same plane as C (same camber) so that the roof at that point will be where i will mount my controls (present thinking) and the windscreen (very lightweight) will be about 10 inches fwd of C for a total area of about 16 inches of flat surface. with the windscreen angling out towards the center window which will open (three section windscreen) the center section being the same (approx.) width as the hatch.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:13 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Daddy, those numbers make sense to me. My 44" above the sole is right on target with your 42 1/2" measure, as I left it two inches higher than spec for a fudge factor. Of course, as you've seen, I've already cut C frame, so will have to fiddle with that. I see you ran your cabin beams fore/aft and used a 4" camber, which would give sitting room I'm thinking, though I'll maybe need a scant inch more for me. BTW, you're clearly well ahead of you pics, so post some when you can. It will help me if I can see your cabin underway.

Now here's a dumb question. Kirby tech is closed till Monday and I want to put a second coat in the foot well. First coat was 24 hours ago in 60 degree temp. Should I sand it a bit or just apply the second coat? Hope somebody knows. Tried a search, but couldn't find the answer.

Dumb about paint Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:30 pm
by TomW
Dougster the nice thing about Kirby is you can go right over it without sanding it. It doesn't form the hard coat the the polyurethanes do. As I recall you have 48-72 hrs to overcoat. Check the instructions on the can if all else fails.

Just a dumb guy who may be wrong and often is. :lol: maybe, not.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:54 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Tom. There's not a clue on the can, so I think I'll just lay another coat on right now. It's the foot well, mostly the sides that can only partly be seen and the bottom, which will inevitably have a mat on it. I could sand it all off in 15" if I had to, so no real worry.

Headin' down to the shop Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:43 pm
by Daddy
I'll try to post some pics soon D, good luck with your paint :)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:13 pm
by ks8
Pictures... of course. Sounds like you are getting close. :)

Happy and safe New Year's. :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:14 pm
by Dougster
I finally glued the seat tops down today. My God, it's taken me forever to get there, but the glue is setting. They were a bit awkward and then I went overboard lugging rocks in to weight 'em down. I'm feeling kinda knackered but glad. Here's a boring pic, but, just look how crazy I went with the rocks :)

Image

Well, anyway, the job earned me 3 ibuprofen and a half hour nap. I used the gel magic dispensing tubes with a caulk gun, and, though pricey, they make it easier when working solo and doing so much gluing. It took 2 1/2 tubes, so you can figure the cost and decide if it's worth it. Sure does feel good to have those tops glued in. Now it's back to the consoles :)

High on ibuprofen Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:11 pm
by Daddy
I had to look twice at your picture to figure out what you were doing, then finally read the text, glad it was rocks, not sure what I thought it was at first. Another milestone Dougster! Feels good I'm sure. You mentioned the consoles. I have been putting those out of my mind for a while. Did you decide on 1/4 or 3/8 for yours? I would think 3/8 might be more rugged for your steering hookup and all. Keep warm!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:21 pm
by Cracker Larry
I don't think 1/4 is sturdy enough. I've got at least 3 sets of Bateau console plans and they all call for 3/8. The wheel and control box need to be backed up with 1/2 or 3/4. These are the hand holds for the person driving and it needs to be strong enough to fling your body around on.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:31 pm
by Spokaloo
6mm on my boat, they make for a handy little bench to sit on and hang your feet to the side for perch fishing.

Love the rocks Doug!

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:39 pm
by chicagoross
Making progress, Dougster! All of my weights were the (28) empty gallon jugs that Shine sent me, refilled with water. Easier to lift than carrying rocks in from the garden. Hope you didn't rip all of that flagstone out of the patio! :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:51 am
by Dougster
chicagoross wrote:Hope you didn't rip all of that flagstone out of the patio! :D
Nah, those are leftovers from said patio. The guy asked if I wanted them, so sure. He had two strong, young guys for a crew and said where do you want 'em. I picked a spot I later regretted, so now and then I grab a few and move 'em to a better location. This bunch just took a detour :) Daddy, regarding the consoles, I'd already decided on 3/8", and Larry, your comments firm that decision up. I guess I could go for 1/4" on the port console, but won't. I need to get hold of a couple/three sheets of Okoume for them and the cabin top, as I am beginning to worry about weight. Nina's got to watch her figure.


Watchin' it along with her Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:16 pm
by Daddy
D, I have a left over piece of Okume that is about 20 inches wide and 8 feet long, I am going to add a new piece of O to it and make a roof for my helm station, width of consoles and about 60 inches for and aft. I know, more weight up high, not the best idea and if it doesnt work out I will tear it off and go with canvas. For the roof of the cabin I have some left over meranti that I will try to use for that, maybe buy another piece of O. Any leftover will make the cover for my motor, having the transom 5 inches lower should allow me to fab a cover that will not look out of place and more in line with the design. I hope. When I saw your pic, I thought, this man needs more tools so he can do like E. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:10 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, here is a link to a Ninegret build that I ran across today. Interesting pictures and a different approach to the console and seating. So many ideas, so little time. http://roeboats.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/all-done/
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:23 pm
by Dougster
Well that's pretty cool timing! I just finished a lazy Sunday coffee morning, then quick trip to town to take the recycle. I fixed a quick lunch and thought to check the forum while I ate, then head down to Nina and fool with the console mockups. Yesterday I finished getting the seat tops taped in, another milestone, but now it's time to nail down some kinda console design. Here's the seat tops:

Image

That big white patch in the upper right is just some left over quickfair I put to use. Below it is one small bubble already cut and sanded out. That was the only one, and I was happy with this tape effort, my best to date. I finally used some old advice from Spokaloo. He makes a little fillet tool and I approximated one with a 1' plug from a hole saw cut out kept when installing the fuel tank. I didn't put a handle on it, but will. It gave me a much better fillet than my old back of a plastic spoon thing. Then, second, I used a chip brush and smoothed the fillet out even nicer (after it sat a bit) with epoxy. That made it even better, so a belated thanks to Eric.

That link is nice Daddy, and it's funny, but yesterday I was admiring Spokaloo's clippercraft pics and noticed he slanted the forward face of his console mockup. I thought to do the same this morning but have some misgiving with the complication. Your pics of that Ninigret simplify everything by not taking the console all the way to the gunnel, so that head on it's just a rectangle. That design seems to key on the throttle mount that seems to be on the deck, although I don't see the mechanism underneath, which on the TwleflexSafe-T II extends 5 5/8". Maybe it could be mounted on the side of the console, dunno. It's getting to be too much to think of, for sure, so I gotta pick something and move on pretty quick. That looks nice, though. Do you think he made those chairs? I'm sure not going that far, heck I'd never finish :lol:

But by golly got the seat tops in Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:24 pm
by Daddy
Nice to have the seat tops taped in Dougster, I enjoyed the pics in the link but noticed that he used the standard shifter that comes with the motor and it is almost out of reach from a standing position. Did you see how much he sold that boat for, 26,000 euros? I think he made the seats himself, probably not as hard as it looks, what do you plan to use for seats?
I got my cockpit sole glassed finally and now I can get to work on finishing the motorwell area. I have been looking forward to that part of the build. Keep on.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:28 pm
by chicagoross
Another milestone, Dougster! What's next?

I kind of like the simple consoles on that ninigrette. Seems he could have put the side-shifter on the side of the console itself and would have been a bit handier from standing position.

Some interesting choices on that ninigrette - no built in fuel tanks, 6 gallon portable under the passenger seat; manual bilge pump; and a hardtop and cabin door. Seems like it still performs OK with that hardtop! :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:39 pm
by Daddy
chicagoross wrote:Another milestone, Dougster! What's next?

I kind of like the simple consoles on that ninigrette. Seems he could have put the side-shifter on the side of the console itself and would have been a bit handier from standing position.
Some interesting choices on that ninigrette - no built in fuel tanks, 6 gallon portable under the passenger seat; manual bilge pump; and a hardtop and cabin door. Seems like it still performs OK with that hardtop! :D
I looked at lots of his pictures and think I saw a fuel fill on one of them, not sure, that might be a spare tank under the seat. Neat boat nevertheless. Right about the shifter, I think it is fairly easy to move the handle over and he could have mounted it on the console, much better location. I wonder what he used for the cabin top? Maybe I'll drop an email and find out. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:19 pm
by Cracker Larry
manual bilge pump
:help: That's real good for backup, but as a primary pump on a 22' boat 8O not. I know we get a lot of exercise working those long boards, but a couple hours on a manual pump will separate the men from the boys, or the scared from the terrified :lol: At which time a 5 gallon bucket will move more water than any manual pump. The largest ones moves about a gallon a stroke, but it takes some effort. Can you stroke 2,000 times an hour? For how long?

I'll stick with a couple of Rule 2000s until the batteries and engine dies, then buckets. If it gets ahead of the buckets, that's why we used foam :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:57 pm
by chicagoross
I agree with you, Larry! Not to mention those manual pumps are expensive! Just the thing for a sailboat without much electrical, but I'd put that money into a second big pump. Maybe he had it laying around...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:29 pm
by Daddy
Or maybe just for rain water :D That boat has a wet bilge unlike the sealed space most of us build into our hulls and the low point in the hull of a Ninegret would be amidships.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:27 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I got a reply from Tiernan Roe, the builder of the Ninegret concerning the cabin roof:
"I used 9mm ply for the top and re-inforced the cabin sides and added a deck beam also. After all that I think Atkin was right about the canvas top it would make the boat more versatile especially in a warm climate.
Regards,
Tiernan "
Great how helpful boat folks are and how quickly he responded to my question.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:29 am
by cape man
Dougster she's looking great! Love the rocks! I used 1/2" on my console. Maybe a little overkill but it is where everyone is grabbing hold of when it gets sloppy, me especially.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:40 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Just looked at the pics for the Ninegret, pretty neat seats whichever layout you choose. They wouldn't be that difficult to build either. :D The console layout looks good too.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:43 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Cape Man. Rocks had the two essential things I needed: I had 'em and they were heavy :) Daddy it's cool you contacted that Ninegret builder. 9mm would be about 3/8" I guess. It's interesting he has reconsidered canvas, which has had me going round and round. I wonder how much weight a hard top will add? Even with 1/4". The beams and hatch/hatches, then maybe a windshield for some canvas top to shelter the helm to butt up against. Adds up. Maybe it's nice to be able to take off the canvas, but I wonder if I would. I'm lazy about stuff like that, thinking "I dunno want to take it off 'cuss I'll have to put it back on". I mean, I know me. 'Course I did lug those dang rocks up there then take 'em off. I love that guy's Ninegret, but side with everyone else: electric pump, no manual. The manual thing might remind me of those rocks some day, ibuprofen wise.

I have made no progress on the motor well area, Daddy, and hope you post pics as you go along there. Mine needs a lotta quick fair, sanding, and generally just plain cussin', which I have been avoiding. Right now I plan on two bilge pumps in the motor well, and no scuppers at first, since I'm so unsure of the water line. It's a puzzle. So are the consoles for that matter, but I'm gettin' close. Been looking up sizes of gauges and making some rough drawings, refining what I have now. There's a spot reserved for your mug holder for sure Larry 8) I showed my wife the Ninegret pics in your link and straight up she wants that big dowel hand hold he put on the starboard console, so, ok.

Wants both my girls happy Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:56 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I am sure the manual pump was for bilge water mainly as that boat has a wet bilge as opposed to a sealed bilge like you and I have in our builds. Hopefully he has electric pumps as well. As far as the canvas VS ply roof on the cuddy I think he meant that in a warm climate it might be nice to remove it. I am thinking more from the point of view of a secure place to store stuff and a shady place to retreat from the sun when at anchor. I will use 1/4 inch on mine. Definitely use non manual bilge pumps but I will put in a drain plug in the center where the sole meats the transom. If you store the boat outside on a trailer it is handy to have a drain for any water that gets past your cover. If it turns out to be too close to the waterline I will keep a plug in it while afloat but I really hope for the self bailing to function.
I did some grinding and filling on my motor well yesterday, found out the card on the camera was full so couldnt take any pics, will try to get some today. What did you think of the access holes Tiernan had on the Ninegret? I think I would rather opt for some kind of hatch on top. The motor well on the Ninegret is very different from Nina.
Keep on!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:51 pm
by Dougster
Hey John, long time no hear, how're you doing? Come on by and check out the build some time. Daddy, I noticed it was a wet bilge, but I would use a little 'lectricity there too, though the the manual thing is a kinda salty looking I guess. I did notice those two big openings and love the idea, but when looking a Nina, not so much. What is cool about what he did was getting storage for long items, but with Nina you'd have to extend those big holes through the transom to include the back sponsoons, or whatever you call 'em. I wouldn't want to do that. Like you I figure on some hatch at the top, and maybe a battery in each one. Dunno what to do with those back sponsoons. That's a lotta space to waste, but we don't want a lotta weight that far back. I believe Spokaloo put an access hatch in 'em on the inside, by the motor lower unit, that's mostly only usable when the boats on the trailer. Put light weight odds and ins there I guess. Oh, and yeah, I definitely intend a drain plug through the transom, in the center. By scuppers I was referring to big boys in case of trouble. Those aren't on for me right now, but definitely a drain plug. I hadn't thought about making sure the drain plug is above the water line, but that would sure be good. I guess you'll put a little sole in the motor well that's even with the cockpit sole? Did you notice Mulletchoker's deal there, with the little sink hole for the pumps? 'Course that sinkhole would hold water on the trailer if the pump didn't clear it. Hope I'm being clear. Are you planning a live well? That's another can of worms :lol:

Still pushing forward Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:19 pm
by Daddy
No live well, I did the motorwell as shown in Harry Bryan's plans for the Handy Billy. I will try to get some pictures but in essence my cockpit sole goes all the way back to the transom with no interruptions, then the motor well side extensions sit on top of the sole. Another thing I did was to cut the transom down to 15 inches and that brings me to a problem that I discovered only today. With the transom at 15 inches that leaves only 10 inches showing above the sole. If the bolt patterns on the Yamaha F25 are spaced more I will have to cut into the sole to get at the bottom bolts and I really don't want to do that. I called tech support at Yamaha today and they are sending me a template for the F25 which will reveal the answer. I guess I will do whatever I need to but really hate to cut an access hole in the sole, a hole in the sole is gonna be a real pita. I know that the bolt patterns are supposed to be universal but I looked at a 20 in the showroom and it would have worked just fine, will 5 more horses tip the scales? I will get some pics on the blog.
Keep on!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:21 pm
by Daddy
Edit: sorry, double post

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:48 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
I'm off all weekend so whatever day works for you works for me. I would love to see how Nina is doing.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:53 am
by Dougster
Hey John, good. How 'bout tomorrow morning, Saturday, say nine or ten? I'm fooling with some cleats in the stern compartments today and, of course, the console mock ups.

Foolin' around with Nina Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:08 pm
by Daddy
quote/ Dunno what to do with those back sponsoons. That's a lotta space to waste, but we don't want a lotta weight that far back. I believe Spokaloo put an access hatch in 'em on the inside, by the motor lower unit, that's mostly only usable when the boats on the trailer. Put light weight odds and ins there I guess. Oh, and yeah, I definitely intend a drain plug through the transom, in the center. By scuppers I was referring to big boys in case of trouble. Those aren't on for me right now, but definitely a drain plug. I hadn't thought about making sure the drain plug is above the water line, but that would sure be good. I guess you'll put a little sole in the motor well that's even with the cockpit sole? Did you notice Mulletchoker's deal there, with the little sink hole for the pumps? 'Course that sinkhole would hold water on the trailer if the pump didn't clear it. Hope I'm being clear. Are you planning a live well? That's another can of worms :lol:

Still pushing forward Dougster[/quote]

Dougster, because I cut my transom to 15 inches I am able to access those back spaces easily by hinging the seat back and simply reaching over the transom. I filled the bottom of the space with foam and put 1/4 inch ply and glass at transom height which still gives me a good amount of space. I figure fenders, extra lines and other light stuff for that area. The space in front of the transom goes all the way down to the sole and there will be a battery on each side of the motor well. Gotta get some pics up soon.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:53 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Saturday around 9-10 sounds good, see you then. I'm working on a couple of honeydo projects for SWMBO today :roll: , should be done by late this afternoon (at least one more trip to HD Bulverde first :D ).
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:35 pm
by Daddy
Finally posted some pics on my blog of the motor well and helm seat possibilities.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:42 pm
by Dougster
Good deal John, I'll see you in the morning. Daddy, those pics help me see what you mean about the motor well. The only thing I don't get is the folding seatback thing. Maybe it'll click later. You're moving fast, already ahead of me. It's great seeing it come together. I spent all afternoon on the console mock up, and am getting close. Your Ninegret pic gave me some ideas, and thanks for that. It looks like my port console will be about 32 1/2" high at the aft edge and 38" where it meets the cabin. It will angle up at about 40 degrees for 8", then have a 6" horizontal shelf for Cracker Larry's donated mug holder and a fish finder. Seems like those two will go well together :). Anyway, the port console will be 32 1/2" high with no angle up, but with sides or "wings" to match the starboard one. I have a mock up but the sides are angular and I see now they'd probably look better curved. Maybe I'll get that in tomorrow with some pics so it makes sense. Oh, and the consoles are 12" deep.

Ready for happy hour Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:13 am
by Daddy
Dougster, the seat back, the top portion that is above the actual bench seat, will be hinged so that it folds forward to lay flat on the bench seat. This would allow access to the motor and storage. Sounds like you have worked out the details of your consoles, good to have a resolution. I am still struggling with mine. Have you thought about seating yet?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:31 am
by Daddy
Dougster, two pieces of information that I picked up today, one is an answer to a question that I asked Eric and here it is:
"Daddy, the sole is right at or 1" above the waterline with my F50 and all our gear in the boat. When she heels to one side with a person leaning over the rail or standing in a corner, they would be underwater when at rest. Ball scuppers are a decent option, or flappered that drain through the transom."
That kind of tells me that a flappered drain through the transom would work fine especially with the F25 that I will use. The second bit is that I called Yamaha and found that the max height of the motor (F25) above the transom when in the vertical position is 17.4 inches. With my transom cut down to 15 inches the motor will stick above the rear deck about 1.5 inches. Allowing 3 or 4 inches above the motor will make the motor cover nicely proportional. A relief for me because in my opinion that motor cover is essential to the design. My dealer still doesnt have the F25 in stock but I would love to be able to hang it on the transom and see first hand how it will look and function (up/down etc.)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:34 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, sorry I'm just getting 'round to responding. For seats I plan on the two at the consoles on seat boxes small enough so the seats can rotate and face backward for drift fishing, trolling, what have you. Then, like you, I like the idea of a bench seat across the back, with batteries or bait tank in it. The 17.4" figure is sure helpful, thanks for sharing it. As of now my transom is still 20'' and I still look for reviews of the e-tec 30, which is pretty low profile. It's time I try to call and find out. I definitely want the motor cover, but may be able to tolerate the thing being 5" taller than yours. Isn't there a boat, "Top Hat" with that look? I can't remember. Lately I've been giving thought to where my transducer for the fishfinder will go. I'd like the ease of a transom mount, but wonder about the turbulence. Maybe Eric or MulletChoker will chime in on that.

Still at it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:56 am
by Spokaloo
My 'ducer is right beside the drive leg inside the motorwell. Works just fine.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:00 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
I went to the San Antonio Boat Show yesterday just to see what I could see. Came across an E-Tec 30 (tiller) looks like it should have a pretty low profile. Also saw a Yamaha 25, neat little engine but probably not enough hp for Nina. Of course you could always do triple 300 hp Mercs (on a huge Boston Whaler) 8O 8O 8O Last but not least, a 13' Boston Whaler which is close in size to the GV13. BTW, I'm going with the GV13 as the first boat (in case you hadn't figured that out) :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:14 pm
by Dougster
Dang John, I wish I'd gone and checked out the e-tec. They're hard to find. I've been meaning to call the dealer near Marble Falls to see if they have any in stock. They didn't 6 months ago. My message to them is why do I have to pay retail if it's just an order one unseen and wait 'till it's shipped thing? Anyway, only a little progress on Nina. I cut out the pieces for the starboard console. Next is to assemble. I assume folks use cleats to assemble? That means no tape on the inside corners, cuz the cleats are in the way?

Eric, that's good to know, I think. But, embarrassing as it is, what is the "drive leg"... :oops: Oh yeah, and I like callin' it a 'ducer, so, well, I'll give credit now and then. But basically I'm takin' that :lol: I hope your build goes well and have been following the bilge pump marathon, strong feelings and all. It's really a good thread for the rest of us who need to understand the complexities of these things. You'll work it out, or already have.

Needs to get him a 'ducer Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:18 pm
by Spokaloo
Drive leg = outboard lower unit

Just stick that 'ducer over by the side of the motorwell, around 6" minimum from the side so you can comfortably operate a drill and a screwdriver straight on the screw. That will prevent you from putting anything in cockeyed or catywompus, and give the 'ducer lots of room for clean water. It will spray a little in the well, just be aware of that. Nature of the beast, but at least it keeps the transom clean of any junk hanging off it.

Yeah, that thread has gotten crazy about the bilge pumps, but I think it will have a good resolution someday.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:49 am
by cape man
I assume folks use cleats to assemble? That means no tape on the inside corners, cuz the cleats are in the way?
Cleats will probably work, but I went ahead and filleted and taped the inside as well. Seemed it would be stronger than just a cleat, but what do I know? I also had quite a few seams and corners that were not 90 degrees so cutting cleats to match the angles seemed harder than taping them. Have to check out the bilge pump thread. Where's it at?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:27 am
by cape man
Have to check out the bilge pump thread. Where's it at?
Never mind...found it. Geeez!!! What is it they say about opinions? Seems like there's a bit of tension running around these parts lately. 8O 8O 8O

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:49 pm
by Spokaloo
Its cold, people aren't fishing, a few have double standards for themselves and others, and in general nobody is going outside enough.

I think the ultimate resolution is more pictures from Douggler and Jacques needs to put out a new design.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:01 pm
by cape man
and in general nobody is going outside enough.
Then maybe they should put a jacket on and get out!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I posted this separate hoping to encourage everyone to tone it down just a notch or two...

http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22443

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:32 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
We are probably going up to Marble Falls/Inks/Lake Buchanan etc. this weekend. I know of the Evinrude dealer (on 281) that you're talking about, maybe we will stop and see them on our way by. Good news on the water levels with all the raIn (and more coming!! :D ), Canyon Lake is up to 902.6' and Lake Buchanan is up to 1001'.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:53 pm
by ericsil
Dougster,

If you have any trouble in Marble Falls the E-tec dealer near the intersection of FM 620 and 2222 was reasonably easy to work with and didn't mind installing in a home made boat. One of the Yammi dealers wouldn't even consider selling a motor separate from a whole boat, although they might be a little more flexible in today's economy. Keep it going, you are practically at the loading dock.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:47 pm
by Dougster
John, actually the one I find on the dealer search at the Evinrude web site is outside of Kingsland (Highland Lakes Watercraft Inc.), so I don't think the one on 281 carries e-tec, but you might pull in and see what they've got. I didn't know about the dealer you mentioned, Eric, and forgot you have an e-tec. I'm wondering if they come with throttle controls or we buy that separate. I'm thinking you've been happy with your motor, right? 'Course the 30hp just came out last year so there's not much talk from people with 'em on the net yet.

Eric, thanks for the "drive leg" def. I'm gettin' the cool talk down now, what with the 'ducer thing and all :) Your are dead right about me needing to post pics. Meaning I need to accomplish more to make taking a pic worthwhile. All I got to show now are some console pieces cut. I'd kinda hate to glue the top dash in before cutting the holes for stuff, but without the stuff figured out and ordered, that's hard. I figure maybe I'll just glue the two sides in this weekend. Cape, I lean your way on on taping the inside of the long vertical sides. It's been fun looking at gauges and stuff. I'd hope to find a stand alone bait tank, but nothing has suited me for the price yet, so I begin to lean toward putting one in myself, along side the motor, with a scoop intake. We've got some sun and 60 plus degree weather coming for the weekend so I'm gonna put some time in Nina for sure. Pics by Sunday.

Gettin' on with things Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:49 pm
by ericsil
The short story is that I am very happy with the E-tec. Can't find any fault yet, although the hours are still low.

As for the controls, these are purchased separately, and for a fine price, as you might guess. There was one improvement that I did not know of when I put together my dash board. If I understand the literature, the Lowrance chart plotter can accept the E-tec wiring harness and display all the engine parameters on the screen. Add a compatible flow meter and I can envision a really clean drive station. Good luck with those engine dealers.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:40 pm
by Dougster
"for a fine price, you might guess"

Yes, that would very much be my guess :lol: Thanks, Eric. I wonder if the standard Teleflex throttles work. There's also the whole I Command gauges too, but I'm not sure they are for the smaller motors. Haven't looked into their price, but I'm guessing we both figure it's, well...fine. I did not know about the harness fitting the Lowrance Chartplotter. I'm new to all this NMEA 2000 standard stuff, but it it works, it'd be pretty slick I guess. Gotta study up on it some more. Meanwhile, I'll mix a little resin for the starboard console this weekend, and cut out some parts for the port one. Sounds like we're gonna have some sun, so I can open that big south facing double garage door in the shop and enjoy the day while fooling around with Nina.

Ready for the weekend Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:13 am
by TomW
Yea Dougster the Nmea 2000 is great. Unfortunatly the Etch's harness are only set for it at the 115(their 4 cylinders) or higher right now I've checked cause I want to go that way :( . But buy a Lowrance Gps/fish finder and you can set up a lot of the same functions on it. Most important to me is the fuel flow function at about $60 vs 150-400 for others. They have other functions depending on what you want that will tie into there system.

Just plain tired of winter cold and snow.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:55 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
You're right about the Evinrude dealer, I had the wrong :oops: dealer in mind. I'm thinking of Tropical which is a Honda dealer. We will probably stop by both of them since we will be right there. Gotta love the rain, its filling the lakes up! :D :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:50 pm
by Dougster
Well, it's not much, but it's a pic. Here's the first glue up stage of the port console. Note the RB Clamp (Rube Goldberg).
Image
I was kinda hasty with it all and noticed the midlevel area had a slight bow, so that shelf looking thing is just part of the RB clamp to push the side panel out a bit. Seemed square last time I checked. I bragged about how forgiving the gelmagic is on another post, so here's the test now, 'cuz I got confused on the weights while mixing and had to kinda eyeball the mix. Dunno wanna pull it apart so I'm hoping for lucky. BTW, just looking at it, maybe that is a good place for a shelf :)

I worked this morning briefly in San Antonio, and when I was through checked out three dealers. One had a nice woman with a good Teleflex catalog and I'm pretty clear on that. The wheel will be vertical, but after it's installed they have shims that are $20 or so that can put an angle on it. They also have a $150 tilt mechanism that is an add on that gives lots of options, so I'll start with the basic (Teleflex Safe T II) and add on shims or tilt mechanisms only if wanted.

The second dealer sold Evenrude, but not e-tec. They were helpful and told of a dealer 'cross town that did, so off I went. It was worth the trip to rule out dealing with that place. They want $5000 for the 30hp, $550 for "ignition switch, harness, and control box", and the guy never would say how much to hang the motor, hook it up, and set up the engine, which they insist they must do. The engine set up is a software thing that the dealer must do. Anyway, figure $6000 grand for the whole deal. Of course, they don't have one for me to look at, and the guy had no idea of the height question, how far is the cowling top above the transom. He said "you gotta call 'em". That was one of his more articulate elaborations. When I explained the motor well and cover, he waxed eloquent: "no air, won't run". Basically, as my Grandmother used to say, you couldn't get Pea Turkey out of him :lol: I never did figure out where she got that from. Anyway, it was a run down place, no one there but Mr. Helpful and the girl at the cash register who knew nothing but did try to be nice. I'll check out the Kingsland dealership and the one you used Eric. I'll get happy with one of 'em or give up on e-tec, which ever.

Had fun foolin' with the console Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:58 pm
by Larry B
Dougster, console is looking good.
Hey, a nice pretty girl that don't know nothing is much better than a ugly dude that thinks he knows it all :lol: :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:22 pm
by Cracker Larry
www.yamaha.com :lol:

6K is way too much for a 30 :!: I paid less than that for a 70, with wiring harnesses, prop, tag, taxes, title.. :wink:

Console is looking good!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:25 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, amazing how, in these difficult economic time, the dealers still don't seem interested in selling stuff. I found that calling Yamaha tech support got me answers quicker than dealing with a disinterested dealer. Had a pleasant experience with Hamilton Marine when I called to ask a question about the splashwell tube I will need for my narrower motor well and the guy sent me a PDF file with the complete installation instructions for the modification. Couldn't have been more helpful. Nice when you find that kind of assistance, kinda like your " One had a nice woman with a good Teleflex catalog and I'm pretty clear on that". Oh well. I needed some rollers for epoxy so stopped by the local West Marine and was the only one in the place for the half hour I was there. Would have left sooner but the clerk was lonely and wouldn't stop talking, talking boats so it wasnt too bad. Console looking good.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:39 pm
by chicagoross
Got to beware of those dealers who are selling half the motors due to the recession and have decided the financial solution to that is to double the mark-up.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:02 am
by Dougster
Larry B wrote:Hey, a nice pretty girl that don't know nothing is much better than a ugly dude that thinks he knows it all :lol: :lol:
:lol: There is wisdom there, for sure. And that sure is a lotta dough for a 30 hp, like you say C Larry. I don't expect the price of 30 horses to be half that of 60, but jeez. I love the low profile and for some reason, don't want to cut the transom down to 15" like you did Daddy. My Nina will be in the gulf, and running back in through the jetties, where some waves can build up a little. It's sure no Columbia bar, but I have enough sense to be nervous. Still, I ran those jetties a couple dozen times years ago in my 17' stripper boat, with a 15" transom and there was no problem. But, I never was more than a mile offshore and could pick up and trot right in if the wind picked up. I may get around to a mockup of the motor cover using the yammie height you posted Daddy. With your 5 extra inches it'll look fine for sure, and maybe ok for me. I have told Nina a little extra looks good on her.

BTW, last night, after 5 hours at 65 degrees, the gelmagic was still pretty soft...you could push your nail right in it. I thought, well it's movin' the right way, just maybe a little lean on hardener; give it time. So went to bed with a positive attitude, got up to full sunshine this morning, let the chickens out to roam (all 4 of 'em, dang near bowled me over blowin' out the coup), went into the shop and found a nice hard set up. Good is fine, but I'll sure settle for lucky. Celebrated with two eggs, bacon, and tortillas.

On my second cuppa Joe now Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:40 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
We stopped at the dealer in Kingsland today and spoke with Mitch, he seemed like a pretty decent guy to talk to and very helpful. He had an E-Tec 25 manual tiller for $3,200 to give you an idea where they are on pricing. I think the 30 is physically about the same engine so you should get a lower price than $6,000 for a 30 electric. Went up to Canyon of the Eagles, Lake Buchanan is up to 1002' looks much better but still down about 18' below its normal level. Saw lots of boats out on Lake Buchanan and Lake LBJ, you gotta love south Texas in the February! :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:44 am
by Dougster
John, thanks for that info, I'll do a "field trip" over there and look for Mitch. Yesterday sure was beautiful. I left Nina and spent time with my other girl. We went to Johnson City to check out their new LCRA (lower colorado river authority) park on the river. The developed area is small and no one was there. The river was up big and muddy. There's a retired couple doing the RV thing looking after the place, getting ready to leave for Alaska in two months. They said it was ok to wander outside the developed area and we ended up with a very nice 2.5 mile hike, all to ourself. The area used to be an RV park and general camping spot many years ago, and there was the odd dry stack rock wall, fire ring, bar-b-que pit. Saw several deer and lotta birds for Shirley to ID. It was a very nice day and good to take advantage of, since we're back to overcast and mid forties today. Think I'll spent a little time with Nina.

Likes a big river Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:24 am
by ericsil
That deal you were offered sounds high, but the E-tecs are a bit pricey. I paid $7500 for the 90 and another $680 for cables, gauges etc, (no steering), and another $300 to mount everything in the boat, plus tax and title. That's after, according to him, I got an extra special deal because it was last year's model, yady yady yada. Anyway, there was no way I was going to argue about a few extra bucks on the motor after spending 600 hours up to my elbows in epoxy.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:39 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, bit the bullet today and drilled a 2" hole through the transom where it meets the cockpit sole. Wetted out the newly exposed wood, lined it with biax tape and inserted a portion of rolled up yogurt container which I allowed to expand and press the biax into the shape of the hole. An hoping for a perfect job of sealing the hole and the plastic container mold should come out easily. I have a fitting that I ordered from Hamilton Marine which has a flappered scupper on the outside and is threaded to a nut on the inside, trimmed the length down to the thickness of the transom plus the nut. Hope this will make it more or less self bailing and the flapper will keep out following seas. Wont do anything for a huge wave over the coamings but its a start. :)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:58 pm
by Cracker Larry
Daddy, it almost hurts to drill a hole like that, doesn't it :lol: That's a neat idea with the yogurt container. Amazing what the imagination can produce to do a job 8) GK had a good idea a long while back of using a balloon inside the hole and inflating it to press the cloth against the sides.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:39 pm
by Dougster
Yep, I admit it, I'm don't look forward to drilling those drain holes. Dunno why, if anything goes wrong just stuff it up with thickened epoxy and start over. Still, holing the hull just doesn't feel right. I checked your blog Daddy and see that transom jig. Here's a dumb question. Why make it so thick? To hold the bit steady at 90 degrees? Your moving faster than me Daddy, but I'm plodding along. I glued part of the starboard console today and taped the inside corner of the already glued port one.

I look forward to a pic of your scupper. Currently I lean to a big rectangular, flapped scupper maybe 2" above the sole, to give a little leeway for the water line. I figure the pump can handle that last 2" and the scupper anything above that. I haven't convinced myself yet though. Next friday I'm going to check out another e-tec dealer. Meanwhile Larry & company keep me thinking about the yammies. Wish they made a 30. I see the the 40 is not much heavier than the 25, so maybe. I'll need to call tech like you did Daddy to get the height above transom so I can eventually mock up the motorwell cover for both engines. Mostly I want to find a dealer with a service department I feel right about.

Watchin' epoxy dry Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:41 pm
by Daddy
Dougster and Larry, hope it works, will start over, maybe with a balloon if this doesn't work. Good service department is a must that's for sure. The jig for drilling the holes is thick (3") to guide the drill at 90 degrees as you guessed. Not hard to make if you have a drill press.
Dougster, if you do the flapper thing that high you wont have a self bailing unit which is not a big deal if you are not keeping the boat in the water. In my case I might be out of town for three or four days and want to be sure the boat will self bail. A lot of the pumps need two or so inches before they kick on and I wouldn't want to find the boat with that much water in it. So many options and so many ramifications for each choice, kinda like playing 3D tic tac toe. Jacques shows two big scuppers on the sides of the hull right at sole level a little before the clamping board. I am sure for safety that is the way to go but you will have a wet sole for sure if you are out in any kind of chop I would imagine.
Glad you are making progress on you consoles. I still haven't decided on mine, gonna work from the motor well forward. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:49 pm
by chicagoross
I don't get this talk about scuppers above the sole; seems like if you got the water up past that level, you have then lost the reserve bouyancy that leads up to the sheer. I may be thinking this wrong :doh: may work fine, just like the sole was two inches higher (course then you'd have a lot more bouyancy under the sole trying to lift the boat back up) but something seems wrong about it...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:02 pm
by Cracker Larry
I don't get this talk about scuppers above the sole; seems like if you got the water up past that level, you have then lost the reserve bouyancy that leads up to the sheer.
You get it :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:27 pm
by Spokaloo
Bingo Rossman.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:08 am
by chicagoross
:D just trying to play nice in the sandbox...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:01 am
by Daddy
Two ways to look at it I guess. Wave over the side, drains out the scuppers. No scuppers? Bilge pump pumps it out. Scuppers to small, pump too small? The next wave over the side swamps it. Break out the buckets :D :D :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:18 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I just posted some new pics of the scupper to my blog as well as some shots from an article about Wm. Hand's Shark.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:24 pm
by Dougster
Ah, thanks for the pic Daddy. I had planned on a regular drain plug there, for use when she's on the trailer (almost all the time). That's a better idea. It functions as a small scupper or, plug it if water's slopping in. I love the no screw idea. Re the whole scupper thing, I will study on it a bit, and we can always add 'em after we find the true water line. That's the point to me. I'm missing something Chicago, on the reserve buoyancy to the sheer thing. What I haven't figured is what the weight of water 2" above the sole would be. That number, with the PPI or whatever it's called, would tell how much the waterline is raised. If Nina handles 2" of water washing around the deck with ease, only dropping her a half inch or less, then it seems all would be well, even if the bilge pump failed. If it didn't, it would pump those last irritating 2" out. If she can't handle 2" of water easily, if that lowers her say, 3", then, well, ball game. Seems like simple math will tell how high, if any, the scuppers could safely be. It seems like one would prefer scuppers at least several inches above the water line to avoid water sloshing around. Nina's sole may be a scant 1" above, too close for a dry boat. I'll look for her PPI in the plans and roughly calculate the volume of water, and weight per inch in the sole if I find it. That'd be interesting. As far as scuppers go, if I use 'em I'd want 'em big, 'cuz they'd only be there for an emergency, so, big would be good. If water was slopping in all the time though, I'd have 'em plugged all the time. Still, they'd be there. Obviously I'm still pondering on it.

Thinkin' too much Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:37 pm
by Aripeka Angler
just trying to play nice in the sandbox...
Dougster, your boat is looking great. I promise to behave. :lol: Can I comment on the hole in the transom above the sole?

Richard

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:50 pm
by Dougster
Sure, what you got Richard? Thanks for the compliment to Nina, I'll pass it on to her, she'll be tickled. She's a little vain, but I blame myself :lol:

Treats her right Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:42 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Dougster, I am probably thinking wrong, but here are my thoughts :)
Under normal situations, you don't need or want a hole above the water line on a boat. Why have an open hole to let water into a perfectly dry boat :doh:
Under normal conditions, that would be beyond stupid. However, as it would apply to the boat in the thread in question, I thought it was a good idea. The boat was to be used in heavy seas with the sole below sea level. If the shower sump pumps failed to evacuate several hundred of gallons of sea water from the boat, then a slightly above sole scupper that could be unplugged and would be a valuable tool to evacuate water from the cockpit after the boat was on a plane headed for safety. If the boat is moving forward, then the water is going to leave the cockpit. The scuppers would only be unplugged in an emergency. Like if the sump pumps failed and the boat was taking on water. I am sure none of this applies to your boat but it was mentioned here. I like self bailing boats so you don't have to worry about pumps and above water line scupper holes...

Playing nice in the sand box Richard :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:40 am
by chicagoross
OK, here's my simplified math: 2" of water in the boat is going to sink it 2". then the modifiers: 2" higher up the hull, the boat is wider - so the weight of the water will be a bit heavier and sink the hull a bit more than the flotation underneath trying to push the boat back up. But, you won't flood the whole boat if you have the u-shaped seating (optional) and if it's waterproof. So maybe not two inches, and if the wave didn't wash over the bridge deck, then there's more bouyancy in the boat, but only up front, so the aft end is going down even further, and now those holes in the stern a few inches above the sole are letting in even more water. Also consider Nina's plan shape: Most of the bouyancy is forward, Nina has a very narrow rear; so flooding her could make the more bouyant front rise, with all the water weight rushing aft towards that narrow and not so bouyant stern. Then modify this best case scenario with chop, waves, wind, and a few freaked out passengers aft (standing tall so as not to get wetter than they have too, driving the stern down more).

So the way I see it, a hole in the hull at sole level when the sole is well avove waterline is a scupper; a hole in the hull, at or above sole level when the sole is at or near waterline is a breach. Not to be confused with pluggable through hulls that will drain an empty hull at dock, or drain a loaded hull that is planing, but must remain plugged during normal use.

Anyhow, that's how I see Archemides applied here. I wouldn't do it. :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:42 am
by Daddy
What every body seems to forget is that the designer specifies two large scuppers at the level of the sole just forward of the clamping board. With his years of experience in design and sailing in seas and conditions that most of us will thankfully never find ourselves he has reasoned, I assume, that those scuppers will drain the boat in the event it has been hit by a wave over the side. I don't think he would have put them in the plans if they didn't provide a level of safety and were not a detriment. That said, I probably wont put them in because I don't want a wet deck. I chose a drain through the transom to provide a self bailing boat and the opening can easily be plugged if needed. Maybe the boss will put his oar in the water and settle all of this speculation for us. :doh:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:58 am
by Aripeka Angler
Actually Daddy, this was someone elses idea on another thread. I am not suggesting or endorsing the idea for this boat at all. I was just passing through admiring Dougster's fine boat when I noticed the comment about drilling a scupper hole above the water line. I was just trying to explain the theory, thats all. Never meant for the idea to be applied here. No way :!:
Heck I dunno. it may be a dumb idea anyway :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:09 am
by Daddy
Probably we are looking at apples and oranges here. A boat with the sole below the water line and one with the sole (according to the designer) above the water line are two different critters. The popular TV reality show about king crab fishermen in Alaska shows waves breaking over the sides and washing out the scuppers and over the stern. The scuppers do what they are designed to do, not keep the deck dry, but to drain the deck in the event of a potential swamping by a wave. The boats are not static, When a wave hits the boat rises in the bow and the wave washes away out thru the scuppers, yea! Wish the boss would throw in his 2 cents 'cause I am just reporting how it looks to me and I don't know much. :help:
I checked my newly drilled hole in my transom at sole level and it looks good. The plastic form that held the tape against the inside of the hole popped out just like it was sposed to and it is nice and shiny inside. I am almost tempted to leave it as it is and not even install the flapper on the outside. If the sole is indeed above the water line, why not? Water that comes in should flow out. Rain water or a wave, I will have a 3000 gph bilge pump right next to it. Jacques, say something!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:36 pm
by Spokaloo
So here is the very quick and dirty. The LB22 has vast air compartments under her sole. She can float a certain amount of water above the waterline. Here's my concept if I were running my LB out in the ocean:

Scuppers cut AT the sole. BIG scuppers. Minimum 3x7. They would be flappered, with plugs built to fit them tightly. On every normal running day, they would be plugged, with a very small bilge pump handling the spray and such in a little sump. This would allow you to have dinner parties and carry big loads, while keeping your guests feet dry.

Weather turns sour? People will listen to you. Tell them to get in the middle of the boat where there is the most buoyancy, open the scuppers. and head home. Water WILL get in, but it will also get OUT. Slop a wave in (hard to do in this boat, she likes to roll away from a steep sea), and it will run out the scuppers, so long as you are smart and jog into the seas while she's draining.

At the dock, the scuppers are unplugged, rainwater runs out, and everyone's happy.

That's what I'd do.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:36 pm
by Daddy
Sound right to me

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:47 pm
by chicagoross
What Eric says! Now shall we put em in the sides, under the motorwell through the true transom, or (only other option I can think of) plumbed through the false transom?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:48 pm
by Daddy
I put mine, a 2 inch round hole, at the sole and through the clamping board (I am never sure which is the false transom). At first I was going to put a flapper scupper in the hole and the more I look at it the more I am convinced that I will simply leave it a hole. I checked on the net and found that I can get an expansion plug that will fit that opening. I realize that some water might come in through the hole when backing up but I don't think enough to worry about. If it becomes a problem I will add the flapper. Scuppers on the side will be an option for the future but to tell the truth I have become a pretty cautious sailor. Our lake can kick up 6 foot waves and I suppose it is always possible to get caught out if you don't pay attention to the weather. When I was a bit younger, say 50 or 60 years or so, I looked for the wild days, lots more fun and excitement. :D
looking for a relaxing day on the water now
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:55 pm
by TomW
Daddy can you give the source for that expansion plug. Thanks :D

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:14 pm
by Dougster
Boy aren't scuppers fun :lol: I think I agree with everybody. Big 'uns are fine for Nina but you gotta be able to plug 'em. I like your course Daddy; those circular ones are easy to be plugged, though Eric's mucho guys would sure be pluggable too (well, pluggable oughta be a word). Anyway, I'm like Daddy. I'm 60 years old, don't have any great experience in open boats and big water, and do dang not ever intend to push the river. I picked Nina for a slow ride; smell the roses (or salt air), check out the birds, drift fish a little, have a cuppa coffee. Anchor for a night in the bay with a good dinner and glass of what's good. She'll have a very big bilge pump and at least one pluggable (dangit the word works) scupper for sure, and right on the sole.

Mind's made up 'till at least tomorrow Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:51 pm
by chicagoross
Mind's made up 'till at least tomorrow Dougster
:D :D :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:23 pm
by Cracker Larry
Daddy can you give the source for that expansion plug.
Plumbing supply houses.

http://www.real-titeplugs.com/real-tite ... intro.html

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:24 pm
by Daddy
Tom here is one
http://webstore.petersenresources.com/i ... de=1432188
and here is another one
http://www.shawplugs.com/snap-tite-expa ... c-250.html
and one more
http://www.amazon.com/Nylon-Test-Plug-1 ... 46883&sr=1
Amazon has more sizes too, just have to search for them, also swimming pool sites offer lots of expansion plugs.
I never knew that there was anything more than the smaller choices.
Dougster, I know what you mean by your mind is made up until tomorrow, funny how that works :lol:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:16 pm
by TomW
Thanks Daddy I knew they were out there just hadn't taken the time to find them yet. Ya saved me some time, especially the Snaptite and Turntite from Shaw. Much appreciated. :D

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:37 am
by Fonda@kauai
Scuppers cut AT the sole. BIG scuppers. Minimum 3x7. They would be flappered, with plugs built to fit them tightly. On every normal running day, they would be plugged, with a very small bilge pump handling the spray and such in a little sump. This would allow you to have dinner parties and carry big loads, while keeping your guests feet dry.

Weather turns sour? People will listen to you. Tell them to get in the middle of the boat where there is the most buoyancy, open the scuppers. and head home. Water WILL get in, but it will also get OUT. Slop a wave in (hard to do in this boat, she likes to roll away from a steep sea), and it will run out the scuppers, so long as you are smart and jog into the seas while she's draining.

At the dock, the scuppers are unplugged, rainwater runs out, and everyone's happy.
You just described exactly what I'm doing with my panga Eric. Spooky :lol: 3x7 rectangular scuppers out the back with flappers, and plugs on the inside for dry feet days.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:19 am
by Spokaloo
Thats because that is what should be done on that boat!

Looking forward to you pulling a bluefin over the rail of that boat Fonda.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:10 pm
by Dougster
Scuppers are fun but I gotta order the steering mechanism and cable. I read how to measure and it's simple, but then there's this statement: "Take this measurement and add 6" if you are installing through an engine tilt tube or subtract 6" if you are mounting to the transom or splashwell". It's embarrassing but I dunno what a tilt tube vs. the transom or splashwell is all about. I mean, of course my motor is mounted on a transom or splashwell. What's this engine tilt tube thing? I need to be right 'cuz it's the difference of a foot (6" either way). I get 14' for a cable if I subtract and 15' if I add. I can call Teleflex tomorrow I guess. I don't suppose you recall Eric what your cable length was?

Don't wanna come up short Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:25 pm
by Cracker Larry
Dougster, yours will be mounted through the tilt tube, just like mine and most modern setups. The tilt tube is what the motor pivots on when it tilts. The outer sheath of the steering cable connects to it, and the steering rod passes through it. I'll try to find a picture...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:30 pm
by Cracker Larry
Here ya go, this will work. See where the steering cable enters the motor on the starboard side. The cable has an outer sheath with a big nut on it that screws onto the tilt tube. The steering rod passes through the tilt tube, then has a linkage back to the motor. Your motor will come with the linkage bar.

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:28 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, I don't remember off hand, and it is in a locked shop at someone else's house.

One thing I do remember is I ordered it a little long, and it was WAAAY too long. I need a foot shorter cable.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:47 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, you got the picture in Larry's excellent description. Although we are both building Nina I will do the splashwell mount because I narrowed up the motorwell opening to 26 inches. That doesn't leave me enough room for the shaft to travel. The splashwell mount doesn't go through the tilt tube but mounts on the side of the splashwell and the end of the steering cable rod attaches directly to the motor without the linkage bar. I have never installed one before so another learning curve. Always did the tilt tube and always got the cable too long even after carefully measuring, don't know why. Actually had to send one back. :oops:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:12 pm
by Dougster
Man you guy's are great. Larry, that pic is what I had in mind, but I didn't know if that was a "transom mount" or a "tilt tube". Looks like I need a 15', but I'll measure one more time. That may be a little long but 14' may be a little short, and don't want that. I get around 14' 2'' or so and they say round up. I need to get up in the cockpit, stand at the helm area and make some more motor noises to see just where I want the wheel, then measure one last time. Then I think I'll celebrate and order another last batch of epoxy :D Thanks again guys.

Gets by with a little help from his friends Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:53 pm
by Cracker Larry
Doug, measure it exactly like teleflex says. This cable is thick and stiff, you can't stretch it and you can't do anything with the slack.

This may help, and will also show the different mounting possibilities. I like tilt tube best :wink:

http://www.downloadingfiles.co.uk/telef ... Cables.pdf

The best way to measure it is to run something like a fish tape or a stiff piece of wire (I used a nylon fish tape) through your conduit, end to end. Mark the locations shown on the measuring charts at each end with masking tape. That's from the center of the helm to the center of the transom . Then pull the wire or fish tape out of the chase and measure between the tape marks. Add 6" and round up to the nearest foot. Easy. Do it just like that and you won't have to send it back :wink:

Edit: When you do the measurement , allow for the cable to make about a 12" radius bend to meet the steering head, or to bend from a chase tube to the engine, the steering cable won't bend as tight as a piece of stiff wire :wink:

This pic shows how the cable enters the steering head, that's about as tight as you can bend it, so allow for that.

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:27 am
by Daddy
Don't know where you are ordering from Dougster but if the cable turns out to be too long you can usually send it back and exchange it for the right length. Larry is right, you cant stretch it but you can, if you are not going through conduit, use up some excess by altering the route (you are probably going under the gunnels). If it is not just what you want, send it back dont try to make it work.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:32 am
by Dougster
Nice pic Larry, I think I recall it. It does remind me that I shouldn't measure all the way to the rear of the console, only to how far the steering mechanism portrudes. I'll do a careful measure today and I think, with the added 6" for the tube connection thing, I'm gonna get like 14' 1" or so. It would be close like that, so that'd be a round up of 11"...! That's measuring without curves, just right angles. Maybe I'll do the curve thing measure. Daddy, the Telelex Safe T II NFB seem to all come in a box with the cable (you order the box with the cable length wanted). I'll call to confirm I can exchange the cable before I buy. BTW Larry, I see the twin to that cup holder you gave me there on your console, with the cool little drain tube and all. One of these days I'll post a view of it's twin on Nina :wink:

I'm heading off to another e-tec dealer later this morning (in Kingsland, here in the hill country). It's about an hour away, maybe less. We're supposed to get some sunshine today so Shirley's going with me, as there's a site up there she knows of with some eagles fledging. Ever the birder, she's packing her camera and scope. We're packing a lunch too, so it should be a good day.

Says good things come if you build a boat Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:47 am
by Cracker Larry
BTW Larry, I see the twin to that cup holder you gave me there on your console, with the cool little drain tube and all. One of these days I'll post a view of it's twin on Nina
It's a triplet :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:58 am
by Larry B
Cracker Larry wrote:Doug, measure it exactly like teleflex says. This cable is thick and stiff, you can't stretch it and you can't do anything with the slack.
Sorry a bit off topic, but reminded me of a old saying: It's not very big around, but it sure is short :lol: :lol: :lol:

Other than people posting off topic stuff, this is the kind of info I really appreciate. I'm going to try to remember all this for when I need my steering cable. Soon I hope.
Good Info Guys :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:00 am
by Daddy
Dougster wrote: Daddy, the Telelex Safe T II NFB seem to all come in a box with the cable (you order the box with the cable length wanted). I'll call to confirm I can exchange the cable before I buy.
Says good things come if you build a boat Dougster
Wish I could remember where I bought my last unit but the cable was too long and they gladly exchanged it, just had to pay postage. I think it was one of the ebay sites, quite a bit cheaper I thought. Have fun checking out the eaglets!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:13 am
by Daddy
This is the place, you can exchange the cable if the length is wrong, even give you a free wheel (I have two now, I like bronze wheels) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Teleflex ... 188wt_1167
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:18 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Hope you and Shirley had a nice day up north, wish the temp was a little warmer (I'm sure Daddy is thinking the same thing :D ). Did you get to look at the E-TEC?
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:11 pm
by Dougster
The weather fought us a little, but in the end the sun came out, the eaglets, showed, and the day was fair. By 10 a.m. it was high 30's, no sun, and a mean north wind. Pack lunch went the wayside for pack jacket. Loaded up and went the quick hour up to Marble Falls, right in the heart of hill country. There's a little bakery/deli (Brother's) with slightly overpriced but good sandwiches and whatever. I did a Reuben and pickle, Shirley the turkey and swiss. The weather was still overcast, windy and cool, but sun was the forecast and there were possibilities of e-tecs and eaglets. We pushed on.

It's pretty country up there and a slow lane drive over to kingsland, a little town on the Colorado feeding the Highland lake chain. Not hard to find the boat dealer, it's a little one horse town. The dealer is a little mom and pop shop and saw the 25 horse e-tec right inside the door. Guy walks up, introduces himself, and I point to the e-tec, start sayin' I'm glad there's one in the shop and what is the height of the cowling here above the transom. He says, oh your the guy building the boat! Yeah, John, it was Mitch. The owner, Ed comes out. He's a pure boat guy. Dad was in it and he has built 'em for a living in florida and a few locally. The guy loves to talk boats. Hell I'm sold already. I ask Mitch how many dang zeros a 30 horse will cost me. They need $4500 for the motor, and the rest equally less, percentage wise than Mr. Helpful's shop. Ed talks the whole time, lotta advice, etc., wants pics. He says don't add the 6" to the measurement on steering cable, and if what I get won't fit, he'll swap me out. Says the Teleflex NFB is good but the lesser model is good enough, since the 30 dunno have that much torque to need the no feedback thing. What I'm sayin' is I liked 'em

We left there for the eagle view. It's just a pull out 10 miles or so down a quiet road. The nest has been there for 6 years and there's a pull out to park. Two guys were there, with tripods and cameras. We spent a good hour and a half, watching the two eaglets flap there wings and look around. Mom and Pop brought 'em a late lunch, looked like some small, unfortunate rodent or such. The two guys old friends. One works for Caterpillar, big old guy with a down home accent. Said things like "I always said my momma raised a fool, but that's my sister". Big old redneck guy, and told my wife (birder) about finding a baby wren in his back yard and, looking around, finally found some nest to put it in and some sparrow momma came and raised it. The guy likes birds. His buddy, was thin, mid 40's, from Nashville, and had the accent. The guy was down in South Texas to play an 8 show gig and escape the cold. He was a birder too, and pro Nashville session picker. Owns a little studio and produces a little. Both of 'em avid birders and good company. People surprise you.

We got home at five, so happy hour and dinner pretty much finished the day, which, btw, ended in fine sunshine. I liked that dealer, and those eaglets look just about ready to fledge.

Says Nina wants to fly too Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:48 am
by TomW
Sounds like you found a dealer Dougster. To bad they all can't be like that. :wink: Sounds like a great day to. Deb and I like days like that.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:59 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Glad you liked the dealer, Mitch seems like a pretty good guy (I didn't meet Ed). Bonnie and I have been to that same eagle nest (I think, the one on Hwy 29 towards Llano) neat spot to get a fairly closeup view of the eagles. Sounds like Nina and that E-TEC will be married shortly, be sure to invite us to the wedding! :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:26 am
by cape man
Dougster if after that story you don't buy a motor from that shop something just aint right. Always so nice to meet good folks who like what they do.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:59 am
by Cracker Larry
But get the NFB steering :wink: It doesn't cost much more, and you'll like it better.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:33 am
by cape man
Yeah I missed that CL. Definitely spend the extra for NFB steering. You will not regret it! Makes every trip that much more relaxing.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:24 am
by steve292
I'll add a 3rd to the NFB, dougster. Nice day out 8) #
Steve

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:03 pm
by Spokaloo
I heard another LB22 out there has the NFB steering.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:41 pm
by Dougster
Well the jury is sure in, so NFB it is :lol: It's nice to have a dealer and motor settled on for sure. Now I gotta move on this console, which is tough to do without the gauges, steering, and control on hand. I'm working on it. I did tape the port console pieces today, so tomorrow I can stand 'em up in the boat and make some motor sounds. I'm still staring at her backsides a lot, trying to figure drains and intakes. With a rear bench there needs to be a drain underneath it to a hole in that bulkhead there, I guess it's D. Then the water's in the motor well. I'm thinking of a little sole in the motorwell that's maybe a half inch below the cockpit sole to facilitate water heading that way. I may slant that sole back aft a bit to keep water moving to the bilge pump, which I'm thinking about putting right on the hull, right on the bottom, though I guess on a little pad. Kinda like MulletChoker did. So maybe the aft six or eight inches of the well has no sole. Put the bilge pump or pumps there, also put a scoop water intake there for the bait well. Is that making any sense to folks?

Oh and BTW, do people put some kinda drain or weep hole or something at the foot of the console (consoles for me)? I'll have shelves and maybe a little hatch for storage, plus an access hatch on the port side to get to the rear of all the gauges and stuff there. So water could get in. I'm not sure on that. I guess it would have been nice to have planned all this out in advance, but at this stage I don't see things 'till I walk up on 'em.

Ponderin' more than workin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:15 pm
by chicagoross
But this is a good time for pondering, Dougster. Move your pondering chair to behind your console where the captains chair needs to be; better still if you have your chair and swivel. Stack 2x's' or blocks or whatever to get the height of the seat box right, the distance from the console, etc. Then sit in your new pondering chair. Reach for the controls, the wheel, etc. Then readjust everything bit by bit as you purchase the various bits! :D If you were doing this professionally you'd call it ergonomics.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:17 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, Don't know if you have decided on scuppers but I have been doing a little research on scuppers, found this one on the Defender online catalog;
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... 0&id=57597
I have drilled a 2 inch hole thru my transom right at sole level and think this might work, it is a repair part for an exhaust unit and consists of just the weighted rubber flap. If I put that on the outside it should work to keep out seas while backing or at slow speed. I'll use an outsize stopper on the inside when conditions demand.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:14 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug I have a 16 foot Teleflex cable that I might get rid of in favor of a 17 foot cable for the Clippercraft. Let me know if you are interested.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:55 pm
by Daddy
E, what length did you use on your Nina? I am getting close to ordering and want to get it right the first time, cant decide between 13 and 14.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:58 pm
by Spokaloo
I can't remember, I think I used a 16, but it was a bit long.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:38 pm
by Dougster
:lol: Heck I can't decide between 14 and 15! We're all over the tape. No way the 17' works Eric, or I'd sure take it off your hands. Why don't you save it for the DE25 :) I'll set the console up tomorrow and measure one last time from exactly where the cable goes into the steering mechanism. I think I'm gonna get a 14', cuz the dealer guy swears I don't need to add the 6" before rounding up. He said he'd swap me out for the bigger one if I doesn't fit, 'cuz those are common sizes and he moves them pretty quickly. I believe I'll pay the little extra to buy from him since he offers that assurance. He'll loan me the transom template for marking/drilling the motor mount holes too. Anyway, I just got home from work. I'll measure it one last time and post what I get tomorrow. Daddy, that thru hull looks perfect. I think I'll order two, one on each side of the motor well. Thanks for that link, I have not seen any like it. BTW, I ordered me another last batch of resin yesterday :)

Ready for the weekend Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:17 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I will be interested in how your cable fits. I will need one a bit shorter but it wont be much different. Probably a good idea to buy locally when you can, nice to have a dealer you can get some service from. I worked on the bench seat for mine today, parts all cut out and some glassed in. Thinking about how to build the motor cover, got the quarter decvks cut out but wont glue in until I paint the inside of the storage areas.
Before you get the template for the holes you might want to get the spacing of the holes first so that you can predrill larger holes, fill and redrill. Can you imagine trying to replace that transom if it ever rotted? :x Not at all like on a regular outboard.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:20 pm
by TomW
I ordered me another last batch of resin yesterday
Hope you ordered some of that there hardener with that there resin! :P :lol: :lol:

Still watching the snow melt!

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:32 pm
by Spokaloo
Mine's 16 feet, if anyone needs one that length.

I was long on my boat, so when he says you don't need the 6" believe him.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:07 am
by Dougster
OK, here's my measurements. I'll give 'em in their 3 components as A, B and C.

A = The distance from where the cable attaches to the steering wheel mechanism to the rail.
The base of the steering wheel mechanism protrudes about 5" into the console. Since my
console is 12" deep, that puts the spot 7" inches from bulkhead C.

A = 17.5"

B = Distance from where A left off on the rail to the transom

B = 108"

C = Distance from the rail at the transom to it's center line

C = 32 .5"

Total = 17.5 +108 + 32.5 = 158" which is 13' 2"

Even without adding the 6", since you're supposed to round up, I get 14'
So I get a 14' cable by my measure Daddy.

Hey, Tom you caught me out :) No, I didn't add hardener 'cuz I don't need it. A long ago mixing error (dumped two big premeasured cups of resin together instead of one resin/one hardener :oops: ) telegraphed into having a quart of hardener left over. Joel sold me the needed half gallon of resin only. As most here will imagine, a mix of resin and resin wets out glass very well, but when it comes to setting up, well...not so much. The good news is you have plenty of time to pull the wet goop mess off the hull with appropriate language :lol: That happened about a year ago.

Still remembers it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:16 pm
by Daddy
Good info D, confused by the 17.5 though. Did you allow for some vertical distance in A? Your wheel must be higher than the gunnels, right? Might not make any difference with the rounding up.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:24 pm
by Dougster
Oops, add 3 or 4 inches :oops: So maybe as much as 13" 6". Still comes out to a 14' cable, as you say. And I thought I was being careful :roll: Oh well. I may use a shim Teleflex has to angle the wheel some. It mounts on the front vertical face of the console, but the shim would tilt it forward a bit. I'll have to see. BTW, regarding the scuppers you posted. How are you gonna compensate for the transom angle, so the hinged flap won't hang partially open? Make a shim? Not worry about it 'cuz it shouldn't matter that much?

I got mad at myself for nursing a cold and doing very little all day, so I went down and sanded the whole interior cockpit, just knocking off the thread weave. Didn't take long and made me feel better. Gotta earn that happy hour. My wife's out of town tonight so I got a 6 pack of ale, gangster movie, and ribs in the smoker :)

Doin' that bachelor thing Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:01 pm
by Fonda@kauai
Hey Dougster,
Re: shims for the scuppers, I would recommend them. Peter put some on his CS25 if you look on his thread, and here's a shot of the ones I'm working on:
Image
Mine are for the 3x7 sea block scuppers, interior hole is 2x6. I'll post on my panga thread when they're done to show my process, but it's pretty simple with a router and what not.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:09 pm
by Daddy
The scupper that is mounted on the through hull fitting stays closed even upside down so it should be ok and as you say, a wave would push it closed anyway. The second scupper that I mentioned is weighted at the bottom but that would not hold it fully closed because of the angle of the transom as you said. It would be fairly easy to fashion a shim for it though. Wish I had a taste of those ribs, sounds good. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:56 pm
by Dougster
Fonda, that's what I had in mind, nice pic. Daddy you'd been welcome, I made more ribs than I could eat. I'm still scratchin' my head on this scupper/bilge pump/bait pump thing. Man the easy way is like the plans, put 'em on the side, but I don't think I'd like seein' em there and I think they'd take more water (but dunno that for sure). Anyway, how are you planning on running the water out the cockpit under the bench seat, a 'glass or half PVC type tunnel? Also I notice the plans show a big splash panel in the motor well that would preclude a bilge pump set up there unless there was a hatch or removable panel to get underneath it to the pump. Are you planning your battery/batteries in side wells, next to the motor well or in the rear bench seat?

Oh yeah and I still wonder about water getting in the consoles and no weep holes in the base of 'em. Are you planning on sealing them? That's my inclination, with shelves and storage starting about 6" up. I just can't get my head around it all yet, so today I spent time coating things with epoxy.

Pondering away Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:45 pm
by Cracker Larry
Dougster, I have drain holes throughout my console, you probably don't want moisture sitting in there and condensing all over your electrics every change of weather. In the upper section of my console where the important stuff is, I drilled 4- 1" drain holes, basically one in each corner. No matter how the boat is leaning, one of the holes will drain to the compartment below it, which drains out to the sole. This also provides some ventilation. The forward seat section of the console is completely sealed, except for a 1" drain plug. I can use this as dry storage, cooler, bait well or fish box, and drain it as needed. The built in glove box also has 4 drain holes, in each corner. One thing you can count on, water will get in eventually. Better to let it out and keep it ventilated IMO.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:16 pm
by TomW
Dougster I agree with Larry some sort of ventilation and way to route moisture away from the electronics is important. His way sounds as good as any. I'm going to try to waterproof my glovebox but know it will never be truly so, so will do the same as him also.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:27 pm
by Dougster
Well, it makes sense and I'd have got it right on a multiple choice test :)

Gonna ventilate his console Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:47 pm
by Spokaloo
I dropped a pinhole for drainage in the box bottoms, and have hatches that vent the boxes in the off season.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:52 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I plan to have any water run under the center of the bench seat. I am going to put a bilge pump in the same area (under the splash well).I will take some pics and post in my blog.
If you are going to put some storage in the lower part of your console why not just put in a door that goes almost all the way to the sole, say 1/2 clearance and that should let any water out that might have found its way into the console. I have had good luck at finding used louvered doors at my local salvage yard. Using something like that for a door would ventilate the space too.
Today I glued on the quarter decks and it looks really cool. I will put two large Bomar hatches in them. Now that they are in place I can finish building the motor well cover. I wont make it too high as the owners manual for the motor I want to use says the motor should be kept in the vertical position for trailering and the 8 inch skeg will eliminate the need to tilt the motor much if at all for beaching. Of course if it needs to be tilted I will just open the hatch.
I plan to put a battery in the bottom of each space on either side of the motor well and use the aft part for storage of fenders and such. I am going to use portable gas tanks so will wait to see where I need to trim the boat before I decide where to put them (either under the helm seats or the bench seat). Two six gallon tanks at 36 gallons apiece wont make much difference but will some I guess. Sorry I missed out on the ribs, too bad we are not a bit closer so we could check out each others build, bounce around ideas and so on. I have a friend who stops in my shop every day and often had a good idea on how to get around a problem.
Ahhhhh, ribs...
Daddy
I need to order more epoxy and maybe pick up one more sheet of plywood.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:19 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, what do you think of these?
http://www.wholesalemarine.com/pc/T-H-D ... upper.html
Apparently they are really dry when submerged or backing down
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:48 pm
by Dougster
I saw reference to 'em but didn't find 'em. Looking at them there, I don't see a size. 2"? I wonder if all that duckbill deal will slow the drainage down. Dunno, I go round and round. Scuppers below the waterline sounds crazy, but is that what they are really for? Maybe placed just at the waterline (like Nina) they'd take almost no water but drain fairly well. It's all a head scratch.

I cut out the starboard side deck today in cheapo luan template material. I have always known my Nina had a little "middle aged spread", and figured the suggested design dimensions would be way off. Happily, she a little wide by only 1/2" in her mid section, which is gratifying. I told Nina a little more curve looks real good on her and she was fine with it.

Now here's a possible about face. After thinking over your recent post, Daddy, I have doubts about too high an engine hatch and am giving thought about cutting the transom down to 15". It's a scary cut, but oh well. The more I think of it, the more I don't see it as such a big safety thing. I wonder how many 15" transoms are running past the jetties off the Texas coast? Maybe plenty. Seems like a shallow splashwell would do the trick. Anyone hostile to 15" out there?

Had fun cuttin' the deck templates Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:43 pm
by Daddy
You will find lots of opposition to cutting it down, the trend seems to be to longer drive legs rather than shorter. The research that I did on the subject indicates it is safe. I have spoken with Maynard Bray who runs a handy billy off the coast of Maine with a short shaft motor, spoke with Harry Bryan who designed it and runs his off the coast of New Brunswick, exchanged emails with Doug Hylan who assured me that it is safe, that's what his has on his boat, and they all agree that it is because the motor is not at the end of the boat but in a well. Now, I suggest that you do some checking too because, although I am satisfied for myself, I don't want to encourage you based on what I have learned. The easiest thing to do would be to follow MC and E and have that 20 inch leg and no motorwell cover, I just couldn't do that to Nina. Harry Bryan and Doug Hylan have websites and are easy to talk to, Harry doesnt answer email very often but his phone # is on his website, Doug answers email Atkins, the designer of the Ninegret (15 inch transom, I got the study plans) might be willing to give his 2 cents if you contacted him. Worth It, I think, and then you will be satisfied one way or the other.
I worked on my side decks today too and started the sides of the cabin, my Nina has a bit of middle age spread too :oops: but not too bad. Hang in there Dougster!!
Re the duckbill I am thinking of getting one and examining it to see what it is like in the flesh
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:09 am
by Spokaloo
Make sure the F bulkhead is solid and ready to deal with a wave...

Set up the motorwell with a steep slope so it drains overboard quickly....

Then cut it.

I'd do it, and I own one.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:01 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, you might get a kick out of this, one builders interpretation of the Ninegret
http://www.schleiffboatworks.com/n-gallery.htm
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:31 pm
by Dougster
The Sea Moose! Thanks Daddy, I love that. I gotta admit, that would be a fun way to build (more wood, less goop). Plenty heavy I guess. She seems to have a more narrow fanny than Nina? I noticed he blew off the hatch and let the motor show rather than a tall hatch. I'm at sea on it for a while. ( :lol: ). To cut or not to cut, that is the question. Thanks for chiming in Eric, and thanks Daddy for the same. I'll talk with the dealer guy I met. He's built a few boats and currently runs a 31' twin something offshore here in Texas. I'll ask him how many 15" transoms are running out there. I'd never run far, ten miles maybe? I don't know the waters at all, other than a few little half mile trips years ago in my 17' Ranger striper boat (15" transom). Never a problem, but the boat wasn't designed for that and I was very cautious. I don't have (and don't really want to have) experience in tough conditions, but I know things happen. I've only been skeered on the water once, and I didn't like it, so I won't look for trouble. I'll ponder it awhile, and not to worry, in the end make my own decision. I have the Safe-T II nfb steering and ordered a 15" wheel (guessed on the size there) last night, so I can start fooling with placement on the console with it.

Says you gotta love the Sea Moose Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:53 pm
by Daddy
She's a beauty. The Ninegret is about a foot narrower than Nina and that is a 40 hp on a 15 inch transom. If he had the motor trimmed all the way down he could get away with a 4 inch hatch over it. Lots more work but like you said, a lot less goop!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:59 pm
by Dougster
I talked with the dealer I met, and of course he doesn't see or think much of 15" transoms offshore in Texas. Plus, the e-tec 30hp 15" option is tiller only, no remote. 'Course I'm not married to the e-tec. You have it well researched for your waters, Daddy, and I bet have more on the water experience than I have. Truth is though, the more I ponder, the more I get cold feet cutting down the transom. Eric, you would and why not, you have more than enough experience handling boats in big water to both make the call and deal with it. I have almost zero time behind the helm in a boat past the jetties. As I ponder, it seems safety presses inexperienced me to take all advantages I can find. One downer was drawing a 9" hatch on the profile in the plans. Looked dumb. One upper was the pics of Sea Moose with no hatch. She looks pretty darn good, and so does Cloud Cap. That's my current leaning. I'm workin' on the decks this weekend and looking forward to it. Foolin' with the Luan making mockups is fun, as you see things take shape so quickly. BTW, Eric, that Clipper is just looking cooler all the time :)

Still building a boat Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:51 am
by Daddy
Dougster, trying to find out more about the advisability of the 15 inch transom I wrote an email to Pat Atkin and asked the question, here is the reply:

"I really don't know what to tell you! NINIGRET has been a most popular design over the years. As you know from my web site the designs are all well proven. We owned a NINIGRET our selves and used her a great deal here on the Sound. Check the photos of her on my site. MIDNIGHT RUN is owned by a very knowledgable man who uses her year round.
Best, Pat "

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Photo ... index.html
Almost everyone of these boats appear to have the lower transom. Not sure about the MOOSE

Also, I think in one of my replies on the forum I said that the NIinegret had about a foot less beam than Nina, and I was mistaken, the difference is only 3 or 4 inches less.
I feel your pain in trying to decide what to do, once you cut it you have committed yourself. I recommend that you contact Maynard Bray, technical editor of Woodenboat Magazine and ask his opinion. Explain the waters you will be using the boat and see what he says. Nothing like talking to someone who has used a similar boat offshore.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:59 am
by Daddy
sorry, double post

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:06 am
by Cracker Larry
Why don't you ask Jacques instead? He designed it. If it were mine, I wouldn't cut it down. I wouldn't trade sea keeping ability for visual aesthetics.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:40 am
by Spokaloo
Larry knows your water better than I do, and I'm picturing the days you would use it as days we normally see in the San Juan islands, where it gets a really steep 2-4 foot chop depending on the direction of the tide, but not much in the way of swell. In my eyes, those steep 4 footers are the only thing that will sneak up into the motorwell and slop in. The advice of asking Jacques is very sound.

So let's say you cut the transom to 15" and slob in a 4 stroke outboard.

When a wave comes bombing into the back of the boat breaking, the transom will lift to a certain extent. I expect that the water will plow through the hole, surround the engine, and be arrested by the F bulkhead, as it is still full-height. My estimation is that you can sustain a swamping of the engine in that case, with how well they are sealed now, as long as the well drains quickly, and won't get water in the passenger space unless the wave sloughs over the decks and comes in that way, which you can't defend.

Thas just my opinion however, and relies on a decently sealed engine. I've seen older engines that can't tolerate that, and Ive seen newer ones that could take a brief immersion without getting too wet inside.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:25 pm
by gstanfield
So here's a question from an innocent bystander, (ok, well maybe just a bystander)

With the open well I was wondering if you might encounter the issue of waves rolling in by the engine and spraying up into the cockpit from behind? It seems like the engine mount on this boat creates a place for the water to go, but then once inside the engine well there is nowhere to go but up. I always figured the engine lid was to keep you from getting sprayed in the back, but then again I have no experience whatsoever with this boat or even one like it.

Just a thought, but I guess the expereince of those who actually own this boat (Spokaloo) and the designer should be definative.

George

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:16 pm
by Daddy
Cracker Larry wrote:Why don't you ask Jacques instead? He designed it. If it were mine, I wouldn't cut it down. I wouldn't trade sea keeping ability for visual aesthetics.

I agree with you Larry on the need to preserve sea keeping ability. On the other hand we all choose boats to build or buy based on these two (and maybe more) things; will they perform on or at a certain level and do we like they way they look. That last one is a pretty shallow reason to own a boat but if you consider we pretty much all choose the pretty girl who can cook over, well you get my drift, so I admit I am pretty shallow. Here is a link to the Nina site:
http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=LB22
When you look at her you see a low cover over the motor. When you read the plans you see that the dimensions of that cover set it as it looks in the pictures.
I bought the plans based on how she looks and how she performs according to the description, the problem comes when you add up the numbers and find that a motor of any size (and I am talking about a 25 horse) simply will not fit in the given dimensions unless you work with a 15 inch transom. I think when we consider a 15 inch transom on a boat like the C21 and Nina with the motor hung two feet further inboard we are talking apples and oranges due to the bouancy of the hull lifting the motor in a following sea.
Now, with all respect, I will admit I am shallow and like pretty girls :oops: and pretty boats :D and I will take my chances with Nina and 15 inches and feel safe knowing that 20 years worth of 22 foot Ninegrets and 10 years of 21 foot Handy Billys have been built on the same design.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:56 pm
by Cracker Larry
:lol: I like my women functional, tough and pretty :wink: But I'm the guy who built a GF16 with a 25" transom too. When I give someone advice, I always err to the side of safety. I don't want anyone to get get hurt based on my advice. My experience with pretty women is that many of them will get you in trouble :lol: I'd ask Jacques, if it's OK with him, it's fine with me.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:08 pm
by Daddy
I have to agree with you again Larry. I am only proposing the cut down transom for myself and offering an explanation of why . I wouldn't want the responsibility of offering advice. It would benefit us all if the designer of the pretty woman offered his opinion. :help:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:31 am
by Daddy
I dug back through various postings and found one thread called Nina Particulars which was back when Nina was a new design. I posted a question on that thread asking Jacques to comment on lowering the transom to 15 inches. It us under the "questions to ask" heading. Hopefully we will get some feedback on the question. Also posted a link there to a production boat of similar design.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:47 am
by gk108
It seems like the cutout in the transom that allows you to tilt the motor would also be cut smaller (lower) when using a 15" shaft. If that's the case, then you could get a little more protection from waves coming over the clamping board that way.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:05 am
by Daddy
I have to admit I have never been a big fan of that honking big hole in the transom and I understand it is there for access and air for the motor. I think there are other ways to achieve those goals without that large opening. Mine is much smaller and I will put vents in the motorwell cover. The motor I am using is supposed to be transported in the upright position when trailering and had a minimal tilt position for shallow water (Yamaha F25). The 8 inch skeg also makes tilting all the way unnecessary. I hope Jacques comments on my post in the Questions section. Here is a link to a production boat of similar design with a 15 inch transom. Note the minimal cutout in the transom.
http://southportislandmarine.com/boatbu ... ort-hb-21/
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:53 pm
by Dougster
Hey guys, sorry not to have posted recently. I got caught up in family stuff that used up the weekend. My mom's sister's funeral was here and cousins and such came from out of state. Big gathering, celebration of her life and reunion kind of thing, very good really. Then back to work and I'm in a busy time. Still I've been staying tuned and appreciate all input. Regarding advice, I sure don't want anyone feeling responsible for decisions I make. I fully realize advice and input is based on individual preference/experience/and local conditions. I listen to everyone but then decide for me. No one is responsible but me. I explained the deal to my wife who understood pretty well. Then I showed her pics of Sea Moose and CloudCap and she didn't get it. Said they look great, what's the matter with seeing the motor? Kinda gave me some perspective. I do get your point though Daddy, the plans show the lines one way, with the motor well hatch, yet it can't be done as designed. So the 15" transom question should probably be addressed by Jacques or the web site description should be adjusted. I'm now leaning toward no cover, just leave it like the Sea Moose and CloudCap, though I'll probably throw up a mock up cover when I get there just to see how it looks.
I've got two light work weeks coming up (spring break in public schools) so I intend to keep going on the templates for the decks.

Says he's gonna get her built some day Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:18 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, Sorry to hear about your Mom's sister, always a tough time when you have a loss in the family.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:28 am
by Daddy
Dougster, had an afterthought on your side decks. Do you have a router? If you do, cut the side decks oversized, clamp them in place and use the router to trim off the excess and you will get a perfect fit, then build a jig to mark the inside cut and finish that with your saber saw. Have fun
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:20 pm
by Cracker Larry
So the 15" transom question should probably be addressed by Jacques
It seems that Jacques and I are in agreement :wink:
Re: Question for Jacques

Postby jacquesmm ยป Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:47 am
?
You can but I prefer a 20" shaft.
At the time of the design, the cover worked with a 20", today, you may have to raise it for some engine.

PS: the Handy Billy has nothing to do with the Nina. The Nina is based on the Ninigret and on a Bolger design that I used in the Bahamas: Halloween.
The Handy Billy looks more like a Pete Culler design.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:46 pm
by Daddy
You are absolutely right Larry, in fact Jacques has always preferred the 20 inch transom and that is why he specified it in the plans. The other half of his reply was yes you could do it. I don't think the fact that lowering the freeboard of any part of a boat, whether it is the sheer or the transom has been the issue. Lowering the freeboard could invite water into the boat in the right situation. In the case of Nina, according to Jacques lowering transom to 15 inches is ok but will be "less seaworthy" (quote from another thread). As he said above, you can do it but I "prefer the 20 inch". My decision to do it is based on, as I have said before, 20 successful years of Ninegrets, which Nina is based, on with 15 inch transoms, 10 years of Handy Billys with 15 inch transoms and this fine boat by Doug Hylan with a 15 inch transom. http://www.dhylanboats.com/plans/top_ha ... _plans.pdf These designs would not continue to be popular and the plans would be altered if they were not functional. If I ever get her finished I will test the heck out of her and report faithfully on how she performs, better yet, come to Vermont, wear your life jacket and we'll give her a try together! :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:13 am
by Cracker Larry
better yet, come to Vermont, wear your life jacket and we'll give her a try together! :D
I never noticed an ocean inlet, or even an ocean, while I was in Vermont :doh: You ever run a rough ocean inlet up there? Ever had a wave break over your transom? Not a boat wake, a real ocean wave? I have, in boats with a 72" transom.

Tell ya what, how bout you come down here and I'll show you the ocean. Bring your life jacket :wink:
, in fact Jacques has always preferred the 20 inch transom and that is why he specified it in the plans.
Do you think there might be a reason, based on his lifetime experience with boats, running them, designing them, building them, using them in places other than a Vermont lake?
The other half of his reply was yes you could do it.
Yep, you can do anything you want, it's your boat.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:45 am
by TomW
Daddy I suggest you forget the 15" transom and go with the 20" recommended size. There are more than a few reasons that makes it better for seakeeping abilities. If I could I would always go with a 25 or 30" transom, in fact I'm raising my transom cutout an 1" to 21 3/4" as these boats always seem to run better with the engine in the 2nd or 3rd hole. Unfortunately they don't make many motors under 90 HP with those lengths. It is always better to be safe than to be pretty, which is what you keep coming back to with your covered hatch. Sorry can't buy that argument.

Like Larry said if you have never had a wave come over the rear of a 4' - 7' transom you don't know what you can experience. Maybe you have if so you should be the last person reducing there transom. Or one time in my case 40' transoms with 60' waves in the North Atlantic it was sort of a scatter and every ship for her self. We came through with minimal damage can't say the same for the smaller ships with 20' transoms.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:13 am
by Cracker Larry
I will test the heck out of her and report faithfully on how she performs,
In Vermont :doh: :?

My advice was for Dougster, who lives on the Texas Gulf coast where they have real waves. It ain't Golden Pond. The 15" transom on a 22' boat may be fine in a Vermont lake. It's not fine in the Gulf of Mexico. This ain't speculation, Daddy. I grew up running these oceans while you were reading handybilly articles. I've pulled dead bodies out of the ocean. Your reasoning doesn't wash. If it were mine, I'd put a 25" transom on her :wink: I want my entire crew, and the boat, to come home from every trip. We want Dougster's boat to do the same :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:51 am
by TomW
Daddy as I recall you don't even go out in a storm on the lake there. How you going to test it and report back if you don't give us a report under all conditions? :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:47 am
by Daddy
Lotta head scratchin goin on out there, Lake Champlain sure as heck is not Golden Pond. It is full of shipwrecks, boats that went down in storms. I wont be one of them. Do a little research on my lake, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Champlain or this one http://www.lakechamplain.worldweb.com/
Outside of the Great Lakes, it is among the largest lakes in the US. and the site of major naval battles in the Revolutionary war and war of 1812, it is also listed as the birthplace of the US Navy. Not a puddle.
My transom is already cut down. Starting to feel like beating a dead horse.
Dougster should build his boat for the waters he will float it in and I apologize to him for this intrusion in his thread.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:20 pm
by Dougster
Hey, Daddy, no intrusion at all goin' on, just you experienced folks being graceful enough to share with me. I'm pretty good with 20" for the old Texas Gulf. Thunderstorms kick up quick out there, and I guess the waves too. And then, Nona's built for comfort, not speed (to out run 'em); plus I have very little reading the water experience. It's kinda funny. Larry, you'd be fine runnin' her out there with 15", but wouldn't do it. I might not be fine, and won't find out. No problem anymore, I'm good with the open motor look or a taller hatch if I like that more.

Re progress, there's none to date. I had the day off but spent it helping folk build a bird blind (for birders) in nearby Blanco State Park. My Wife raised several thousand $$'s for the project and I joined in with a few folk. One guy is a former builder/carpenter and it was a pleasure for sure. I learned several things, and fell in love with a new tool: a Bosch hammer drive cordless drill. Made my Ryobe look like a dull kitchen knife with some elbow grease. The ibuprofen in me now I already knew about. Gotto go back tomorrow, so Nina sits a bit. It's not all good, but there's plenty that is.

Plenty's enough for Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:47 pm
by Daddy
Good Dougster, glad you made a decision. Did you read my note about that gap along the edge of the deck?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:24 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, I have and meant to reply but work is takin' time for the moment. Still, I have some days free after tomorrow. I checked out the plans notion of filling the gap and considered yours of filing it down. I'm sure a power planer would make it easier, but still, it's a chore to do well 'cuz it's graduated. For now I'm leaning toward the big gap of glue thing the plans show. Lotta resin for sure, but seems easy enough. It may look odd though, so I'm still thinking. Maybe I'll take some 60 grit to it with the RO just to see if I can reduce the bevel some.

I do want to get the bow deck on first and notice MulletChoker kerfed his (or it least it looks like that in the pic). I mean to cut a template for it first. With that changing bevel of the rail the router may make it dicey to follow, especially given my poor history with mine. I believe I'll go slow with the template and hand plane. I'm not quite sure how to get the camber in that front deck, but probably will just put a brace under it in the center or something. I've been champing at the bit to work on her but things get in the way. Last weekend (and no regrets at all) I helped with my wife's project on a bird blind for our nearby Blanco State Park and learned some things from the carpenter than ran the project. Guy did the whole thing with a skill saw. Cut notches, angles, ripped 10' two by sixes, cut the metal roof panels, hardie board panels, everything. I think the guy can trim his dang nails with the thing! No measure twice either, and no scrap templates. Measure, cut, hand it to me and my job was to screw or nail it in. There was one other guy like me, some wives that helped hold ladders, get, and move stuff, and that carpenter. I'm still sore from pounding those dang nails through the hardie board. Also, now I'm Jonesing for an impact Bosch screw driver he let me use.

Got new respect for a skill saw Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:33 am
by cape man
Guy did the whole thing with a skill saw. Cut notches, angles, ripped 10' two by sixes, cut the metal roof panels, hardie board panels, everything. I think the guy can trim his dang nails with the thing! No measure twice either, and no scrap templates. Measure, cut, hand it to me and my job was to screw or nail it in. There was one other guy like me, some wives that helped hold ladders, get, and move stuff, and that carpenter
My older brother's like that. Add a sawsall and he can build anything. I've always hated my brother :lol: :lol: :lol: I was cutting some prefinished boards (1X10") Saturday for a friend who is making some shelves on my radial arm. 42" long. Two boards. They ended up 41 and 7/8" to get them even. Thank heaven for stitch and glue and epoxy or my boat would just plain suck if it depended on my carpentry skills!

I spent a semester out in Abilene in the late 70's and discovered the birding is awesome in Texas! The blind sounds like a neat community project.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:55 am
by Daddy
Dougster, that gap is why I planed down that angle and the fact that it varies requires a bit of art to kind of get it right. I figured anything would be an improvement. I put an arc on frame A and carried the same arc back to where the foredeck would end and put a cross piece there, I think there is a pic somewhere in my blog.. I notice that MC scored his, looks like on the surface, I scored mine on the underside. I havent glued it down yet. Used my tape and took measurements athwart every 12 inches, transferred that to the ply and cut oversize, then clamped the piece in place and marked it carefully using the rubrail as a guide, then recut it a bit proud planning to remove the wasted with the router, after filling the gap with thickened resin. The max gap should be only 5/16 or so. Fun.
Daddy
edit: I just checked, there are pics of the foredeck framing on my blog, about three pages back

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:51 am
by Dougster
Thanks Daddy, that was a very clear and helpful post. I believe I see my way forward on the foredeck now. I'll take the RO to the gunnel a bit and see about that graduating bevel problem with a goal of reducing the gap. I like how you measured the foredeck and will do the same, so won't bother with a luan template. And extending the arc from frame A with a crosspiece is an "ah ha" moment for me. I reviewed your pics and see it clearly. Thanks a lot. This finish out the topside is a complete feel your way thing for me, cuz I need to have a plan and see it in my head first. Got the day free and it's a sunny one, heading toward a high of 70.

Headin' down to the shop Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:08 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I tried to reply a while ago when I first got your posting but the power went out here. I was going to suggest that you try using a hand plane to rough out those angles as it would be a lot less dusty. Oh well, better late than never I guess. Great to see you are making progress. While the power was off I did some scraping and hand sanding, hand planing and hand sawing. Got some great old hand tools but tend to go with power when it is on. :D
BTW, it is all feel your way to me, esp since I changed several things in the plans.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:31 pm
by Dougster
Yeah, about 2 minutes with the sander and I put it away in favor of my little low angle plane and scraper :lol: That works reasonably well, though slow, so I did a bit by eye then moved over to roughing out the crosspiece between frame A and B. The one the aft edge of the foredeck lays on. I don't know why the plans don't show one (maybe I'd better look again), but anyway I'm fooling around with what the camber will be. Yours looks like maybe 3". I tried 2 with a scrap of luan and that may not be enough. I got confused by the plans where they say 1/4" camber on the aft edge of that foredeck. That can't be enough. I figure maybe that means a 1/4" camber in the other plane of the edge, so that the windshield would have a tiny curve sitting on it. Dunno if that's clear. Anyway, I see that wind shield in the cabin option section of the plans shows a 1 3/4" camber where it fits to the foredeck, which may work. This is lots harder than just measuring a part from the plans and cuttin' it, but more fun, really.
You may have her splashed before I get the dang deck on :)

Same old slow lane Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:42 pm
by Daddy
Not really, so much detail at this point and a lot of it is in ponder/discovery mode. Planning on going to the Maine Boatbuilders Show this weekend. If I see any inspiring pics I will post them on my blog. Glad you discovered the plane works better than the sander, at least less mess. You could almost use a spoke shave and not hurt it too much, remembering that gaps (some) are good.I think my camber at that point is 2 or 2 1/2 inches, gets to be about three inches when it gets to frame C. I think MC had a pretty good arc on his too. I need to get a sheet of Okume for the cabin roof.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:29 pm
by Dougster
Here's a pic with 3" camber. That's more than yours, but it looks right, or does it? That straight edge piece of 1"by just touches at all three contact points.

Image

I envy you going to the Maine boat show, and please do post pics. That should be a fine weekend. I need a sheet of Okume too. As luck has it, there's lumber yard an hour from here that has it, though I forgot to ask the thickness.

Tryin' push on 'stead of just ponderin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:22 pm
by Daddy
That is exactly how I did mine! Great looking. You might want to think about how the side decks will meet the foredeck while you are doing the planning. Maybe just a small block on the side of that new piece to catch the side deck or something.
Yeah, I am looking forward to the show. One of the boats that I really wanted to see wont be there but there should be some good stuff, lots of wood and not so much glass and plastic. :)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:26 am
by Dougster
Well, that's reassuring, thanks for letting me know. I just looked at Mulletchokers gallery again and he did not use a cross piece. I wonder if the piece could be a temporary one somehow, just to guide the camber of the foredeck till the epoxy dries. If not that, then surely a pretty skinny piece would suffice, and wouldn't protrude much into the cabin head space.

Step at a time Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:52 pm
by Daddy
I noticed that too and it made me wonder if he had something further under the foredeck that you can't see? Seems like it wouldn't be a uniform arc if it didn't have support but maybe it would :doh: Maybe ask him? I will take a look at his gallery. edit: I did look at his gallery and there does not appear to be any permanent support under that edge of the deck, maybe frame a sets the arc and that is all you need? Here is another picture that I did not understand, http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage ... 035&pos=55 but the rest of the pictures show no permanent support that I could see. Good luck, maybe try it just using frame A and see if that sets the arc in a way that looks right, maybe with that piece you made as a temp form.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:22 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, in that pic I think those clamped pieces are butt blocks for the the side decks. Here's a pic that tells how he did it, I believe. He used a temporary brace, but fore/aft instead of transverse. http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage ... 63&pos=105 I had a few minutes and transferred part of my brace, with the camber curve to use as a possible upright, to go with that fore/aft piece he shows. I'll see if it works just clamped first, once I get the deck cut. 'Course it wouldn't be as strong as a permanent brace. BTW, how deep ought the kerfs go in 3/8" ply?

Says it's like peeling an onion Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:41 am
by Daddy
Yes, I saw that picture, one way or another you need something the get the camber in there, I cut my kerfs about one third to half way through the ply, not sure if that is right but even then it took some doing to get it to bend over the frames. At first I cut every two inches but went back and cut between the first cuts because it was too stiff, I was using meranti, maybe okume would have been easier I actually used an old towel and hot water on the surface to help ease it around. Seemed to help. Once I could see it would work I took it off because I still need to do some sanding and painting inside the cuddy and figured it would be more pleasant if I left that open until I finish the inside.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:54 pm
by Dougster
I have plenty of sanding etc., there and have thought the same thing---dry fit it now and not glue down right away. I did fillet/tape the little forepeak area today and will either prime/paint it or just roll it with gray pigmented epoxy. Here's my latest take on the foredeck jig.
Image

I used the scrape template for the crosspiece to cut a section of the camber on that piece in the middle. I'll see if it will dry fit this way, but I don't think it would be a strong as with your full cross brace. It surely needs to bear the weight of a man now and then, but maybe the camber makes it plenty strong for that. I'll see what guys think. Anyway, as I recall you're off to the Maine show Daddy, so have fun. I'll look forward to some pics next week. I hope you get to meet some other Bateau guys there.

Likes beer the color of amber and foredeck with good camber Dougster :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:45 pm
by Daddy
Back home from the show, really great, got to meet D2 Maine and had a great visit. Saw some inspiring boats, shame I am not a better photog. Will post on my blog sometime tomorrow. I wondered the same thing about the foredeck, I can imagine that at some point I will nee to stand on it, hope it will bear my bulk.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:08 am
by MulletChoker
We found that when the foredeck was clamped to the camber at frame A it held that camber all the way to the aft edge, there didn't seem to be a lot of adjusting we could do, even with the kerfs it was pretty stiff. As for strength, on the seam where the foredeck meets the cabin front we used 2 overlaping layers of biax tape like on the chines. The deck feels pretty stiff and although I do walk on it occasionally I wouldn't jump on it from the dock!
And Yes, get all the painting and finishing you can done forward before gluing down the deck, there's not much room for a stiff old back up there.
I doubt there will be much sympathy from the north but it's been a cold winter for us, just now emerging from hibernation. It's either been cold or blowing stink or both.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:02 pm
by Daddy
MC, I guess when you add up all the pieces, windshield, etc it would be pretty strong. Stiff old back, sounds familiar! Gets harder to get around in those tight places. Did you ever get canvas for the top? What thickness did you make your coamings? I am using three layers of 1/4 inch mainly because I am going to use a swim ladder and want to be sure it is strong enough, side decks are 3/8 per plan.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:42 pm
by Dougster
I'm quite sympathetic to the "stiff old back" thing, and spent several hours last weekend, and some this morning sanding and spreading quickfair about, in prep for priming. It's nice to hear that the foredeck wants to assume the proper camber without need of much guidance. I wonder about getting a coat of something on the underneath of that deck. Maybe roll some epoxy on just before the final glue down? If the epoxy set I fear it would just make taking the bend that much harder and leave tiny cracks in the resin protective coating. If I want paint there I guess it'll be lay on my back and do the Michelangelo thing. Sanding and fairing isn't much fun but I sure do appreciate the quickfair.

Watchin' the goop dry Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:27 pm
by Dougster
Not much to show for it but the cockpit and forward sections are ready for primer. I finished with a quick run over with 120 grit and next friday is primer day.
Image




Image

Not much of a pic, but like every thing Nina related it took longer than I thought. I guess I remain the optimist 'cuz I keep thinkin' "oh I'll just run through this next bit". Still it's good to be done with the sanding up forward. For a break from the QuickFair/Sand routine I glued in the face and sides of the two consoles and drilled the bow eye. That bow eye thing was something of a trial. The over drill is easy, but makes you queasy. Holes in the hull and all. Over fill with epoxy/wood flour went very well. I did the put some in a baggy, cut the corner, and squeeze thing. The next day I drilled and missed it by more than I could stand. I re filled, then drilled again this morning. It was dang close and judged good enough after I "wallowed" the hole a touch with the drill. Not too much, you still gotta tap in the eye with a hammer. I am wondering what folks have used as goop in the holes for the final install. I'd guess either 5200 or 4200. I'd guess 5200 since one never intends to pull the bow eye. What do folks say? Here's the last pic of the holes, the camera's leaning, not Nina :)

Image

Movin' through the changes Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:38 pm
by cape man
The next day I drilled and missed it by more than I could stand. I re filled, then drilled again this morning.
Did mine 3 times!! 8O 8O 8O What are you using to fair that is so light colored?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:58 pm
by Dougster
Hey Cape Man, that's QuickFair. Nice stuff, never sags and sands easily. I mix by weight on a flat board with plastic tape over it that I can peel off and toss. Three times eh? Guess I was lucky with two, but it's not perfect.

Glad to have overs Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:07 pm
by steve292
Nice work Dougster 8) :D ....you'll be there faster than you think.
steve

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:08 pm
by cape man
My quick fair looked darker, but now I see it does have the same tint to it.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:09 pm
by BassMunn
Looking good Dougster. 8)

Don't worry I had to do my Bow and stern eye mounting holes twice too, those drills just kinda get away from you sometimes :lol:
Last week I had to drill and fill like a hundred holes for my rubrail, kinda leaves you with a twitch in your eye after all that fairing doesn't it.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:57 pm
by Daddy
You're coming along Dougster! I finished my coamings today and like the way they came out, really rugged, should stand up to lots of climbing in and out.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:18 pm
by chicagoross
That bow area looks really clean for an area that will be very hard to see... :D Good work, Dougster! Yeah, those bow and stern eyes are a bitch! You got to drill (by hand) two holes through about 10 layers of glass that are PERFECTLY aligned and parallelith each other - easier said than done, at least for my hand! I'm still waiting for someone to post the tutorial on the easy way to do this... :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:32 pm
by Dog Fish
Boat is coming along nicely Dougester.

I'm still waiting for someone to post the tutorial on the easy way to do thi
A 45........ Image ..........and a good eye. Image.............. 8O



Brian Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:23 pm
by Dougster
I like that, "A 45 and a good eye" :lol: I don't think my eye's that hot. Tonight I fooled with a wood block to back up the eye. Gotta drill that too, but I can do it separately until it fits. I glued up some scrap ply to make a little block. I'm still going for primer this Friday. Gotta get the inside painted before I can put the deck on. Painting it won't be hard, as I'm using Kirby enamel in there and it's nice easy stuff. Daddy, I look forward to seeing pics of the combing.

Still movin' forward Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:16 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, we have talked about some kind of sun protection for our Ninas, have you looked at the Seaway 21? Here is a link: http://www.boattrader.com/listing/photos/95089928/ They also have other models, the bimini looks like it might do the trick.
What color kirby are you using in your cuddy?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:39 am
by Lucky_Louis
I am wondering what folks have used as goop in the holes for the final install. I'd guess either 5200 or 4200. I'd guess 5200 since one never intends to pull the bow eye. What do folks say?
Didn't see that you got an answer so I'll take it :D Got you thinking like a boatbuilder Dougster! 5200 it is - for exactly the reason you mention.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:15 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, new pics on my blog :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:50 pm
by Dougster
The combing adds a lot and the motor hatch cover looks terrific. No way to do that except for the 15" transom. As to colors, I have a very pale yellow from Kirby, forget the name, but its in the pic above there in the foot well. I may extend that or go to another pastel, like light green or blue. I am thinking about simple gray pigmented epoxy for the little forepeak section, for it's hardness. I just realized today I need to get some cleats in the cockpit/foredeck area before I prime so I can get them coated at the same time. Or maybe not :lol: Your Nina looks better with every post :!:

Swimmin' in a sea of details Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:17 pm
by Dougster
Here's a pic of the butt block for the bow eye. As can be seen, once I glued it in I was forced to wallow out the hole a bit to get the eye to fit. It's no big thing to refill and drill over now, but I wonder if it's worth it. Water can always wick up the threads, right? That's why the over drill and fill with epoxy/wood flour. So I wonder if it's time to move on. It must need some goop in it. What do folks use? And if there's a consensus I should re drill and fill, that's no problem, really.
Image


Takin' those little steps Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:33 pm
by gstanfield
With all the work so far and all the work yet to come why not go ahead and fix it right? I doubt it would ever creat a failure in teh boat, but I know I wouls sleep better knowing every last bit of wood was coated in epoxy :D

George

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:26 am
by Daddy
You will probably always worry about it if you don't do it. Funny though when you think about some boats that are 50 years old and never saw a drop of epoxy. I guess you will avoid a lot of repairs and upkeep with the wood well saturated.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:31 pm
by Vman777
Dougster, I see you getting there. I thought you would have been done by now. :P
How is your cabin coming along?

David

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:37 pm
by Dougster
"done by now"...Well, I'm happy just not to be done in by now. :lol: . Maybe I'll re drill, though folks are thinkin' there is exposed wood, and there isn't. The holes are wallowed out a bit, but not bigger than the big epoxy/wood flour over drilled and filled hole they started in. If that sentence means anything. Anyway, even drilled perfectly it's not water tight, right? Water will eventually wick up the threads. That's why we over drill and fill with epoxy right? So what wicks up won't get to wood. So, back to my question, do folks put any goop in there, or maybe just on the bow eye threads? I'm off 5200 for that, but maybe 4200 or silicon?

Vman---the cabin's still in my head, but this weekend I intend to start on the foredeck. Then the side decks, then combing and cabin sides. I'm with Daddy on the 1/4" ply top, and lean toward the shortest, lightest windshield possible. I keep seeing some kind of dodger that folds up against the windshield and opens up just enough to cover the helmsman. For sun more than anything else.

Already ready for weekend Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:23 pm
by Steven
Dougster wrote:"done by now"...Well, I'm happy just not to be done in by now. :lol: . Maybe I'll re drill, though folks are thinkin' there is exposed wood, and there isn't. The holes are wallowed out a bit, but not bigger than the big epoxy/wood flour over drilled and filled hole they started in. If that sentence means anything. Anyway, even drilled perfectly it's not water tight, right? Water will eventually wick up the threads. That's why we over drill and fill with epoxy right? So what wicks up won't get to wood. So, back to my question, do folks put any goop in there, or maybe just on the bow eye threads? I'm off 5200 for that, but maybe 4200 or silicon?

Vman---the cabin's still in my head, but this weekend I intend to start on the foredeck. Then the side decks, then combing and cabin sides. I'm with Daddy on the 1/4" ply top, and lean toward the shortest, lightest windshield possible. I keep seeing some kind of dodger that folds up against the windshield and opens up just enough to cover the helmsman. For sun more than anything else.

Already ready for weekend Dougster
If no wood is exposed, then don't redo it as long as the bow eye will install properly and be secure. I use 5200 for my bow eyes. It will be watertight. Usually they are in the anchor locker, so it doesn't really matter.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:17 am
by chicagoross
No exposed wood? then use it as is. I wallowed a bit too :D and redrilled, and guess what? more wallowing..,.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:03 pm
by Dougster
Well I cut the foredeck piece. I marked it over size about an inch on both sides, and good thing, 'cuz it came out a scant half inch over in places. Anyway, I started dry fitting it with clamps and to my surprise it made the bend easily enough. Seems odd. I'm using meranti and it should be stiff. Daddy and MC both kerfed. Maybe my Nina is spread a bit and wider, thus reducing the bend? I've measured though, and at most she's an inch wider at the midship, so that's probably not it. Anyway, here's pics:
Image
Image

I do notice the nose flattens out in front of frame A there. MC used a brace up there to force the camber to continue. It'd be in the way for the bow light maybe? I might try a temp brace there. It still seems funny to me that the piece didn't require kerfing :doh: The camber there, from the string to the ply at the midpoint is 2.5".

Head scratching Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:40 pm
by Daddy
Looks great D, I think I have more camber and that is probably why I needed kerfs. I would put the side decks on and cabin front and sides before taking out that brace, taping in the front of the cabin should help keep it in place, maybe? have you seen the Seaway 21? I know we are supposed to keep the weight off the top but they have a lobster boat version and a bass boat version of their 21 foot hull. I know the hull is different and that is why we have to keep the weight off but that bass boat version looks like it might be the answer. Here are links to the lb version and the bass boat
http://www.newboats.com/boat/SEAWAY/21-Coastal-Hardtop
http://www.newboats.com/boat/SEAWAY/21-Seafarer
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:58 pm
by wegcagle
Dougster, It looks to me like both of the areas between your middle brace and the clamps flattens out alittle from middle to the sides. Maybe if you add a little height under the middle brace (like jamming a 1x4 board under it :D ) it will increase the camber. Then again you may have to kerf it to do that, and she sure does look good just like she is 8)

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:18 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I forgot to ask, as you have it now, does the deck sit firmly on frame A? If it does then you have the camber just right, If not you might want to tweak it. :?:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:59 pm
by Dougster
Yeah, Daddy, it sits right on frame A. The camber is good I think. There are no flat spots from frame A back to that brace. Forward of frame A is a different story. Not a big deal but I will fool with a temp brace or maybe two permanent lateral braces (to leave room for butt blocks for a cleat and bow light) from frame A forward. I think she'll want some kerfs from frame A on forward to facilitate that. Certainly the little front triangle piece I've yet to cut will need 'em. I had no chance to work on her today, but I'm gettin' there.

Thinkin' of kerfs and cambers Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:07 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Looks like you're moving right along over there! :D I better get started on my clamp collection 8O .
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:30 pm
by Dougster
Hey John, how're you doin' over there? Got that power line run underground to the house yet? Roger that on the clamps. I prefer those orange metal ones. The pistol type are handy but don't have as much power. One or two of those would be enough, but it pays to get the kind that can turn around and be a spreader. I've been going slow as usual. This weekend I went back to a task I've been avoiding: taping the inside of the consoles. I did the hard one first, the one with all the hoses in the way. It was a nuisance and I managed to get epoxy all over my arms and shirt but after it was done I celebrated and did the other one. Not much of a pic but here goes, first the port console with the hoses and then the empty starboard one.
Image
Image

It's nice to have those more solid now. Next weekend I'll see about sanding the vertical edges or using a router on 'm to get 'em rounded, then tape the outside to the hull.

I've given more thought to the foredeck and reviewed Mulletchockers gallery. His clever solution is a beam from frame A to the bow. The more I thought the more I liked it. Otherwise the nose will droop I think, so here's the beam dry fit.
Image

Daddy, thanks for those pics of the bimini deal and windshield. That is close to my idea. I would like the dodger to fold forward and lie snug against the windshield if that is possible, so that folded up it doesn't change the lines of the boat too much. I don't know if that is very clear, or possible, or even how the one pictured would look folded. Anyway, it's slow progress. I'm stalling on the rail area 'cuz I have a birthday coming up next month and have my eye on the Bosch 1594 power hand planer to what you did there on the rail. It's a bit tedious by hand and leaves more gap than I want on the deck otherwise. Thanks too for describing how you did that. And for giving me an excuse to get a new tool :lol:

Gettin' by with a lotta help from my friends Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:31 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug I got some droop, so I think your deck beam is a good plan.

I personally did 1x1 cleats on the inside of my consoles instead of taping, seems to go faster.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:48 pm
by Daddy
Hey Dougster. consoles look good, still haven't decided how I want to do mine. If you get the power planer, and I recommend it, remember that the spinning blades cut anything they come in contact with. It will save you lots of sweat. Speaking of the bimini and how it would fit against the windsheild, there are pictures of two in my blog (second page) from the Maine boat show doing just what you want, folds forward right at the top of the windsheild. I almost think you might have to get it custom made which would cost more but worth it I think to have it just right. That is another thing that I still haven't made up my mind about. What I need to do is some serious grinding and filling on the inside of the cabin so that I can paint it and then put on the fordeck and cabin roof, I just keep putting it off. Hope the birthday fairy brings you that planer!
Daddy
edited 4/19

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:15 pm
by Dougster
Eric, good to hear from you. I've been following your blog and love those lines. As usual I can't fathom how you move so fast. And you know, in hindsight, cleats would have been the way to go. Would've been easier I bet. Anyway, I glued the foredeck beam in this evening after work so I'll try a dry fit tomorrow without kerfs first. Daddy, your mention of "spinning blades" got my attention 8O I figure attention is a good thing in this case, and will be sure to run some easy passes on clamped scrap to get the feel of the tool when I get there. Power tools tend to scare me, especially the router. Less so the circ. saw, I've used it so much by now. Probably better to stay a little scared. Re the dodger/top, I'm sure it will need to be custom, but it seems essential to me. I must have shade for comfortable use in my climate, and I care about the lines, so there it is.

I've just about finished the interior cabin sanding/fairing job Daddy, and very much know why you're putting it off. I did too, but in the end it wasn't too bad. Still, it's sure not the fun part. I certainly had no yacht finish in mind but knew I didn't want to look at a mess in there after the build, so I fussed with it a reasonable amount. I intend (for now) to finish it with the cream that Kirby has, which has a lot of yellow in it. It's in my foot well now. This weekend will be more fooling with the fore deck, side decks, and consoles.

Always welcomes a consult from you guys Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:31 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, good to respect the power of power tools and some practice is a good thing. Kind of like driving, a moments inattention can be a disaster. I figure with the planer, keep both hands on top and don't set it down til it stops, actually that works for most of them although I usually set my skilsaw down but always make sure the guard returned all the way. Watched a fellow set one down on a brand new hardwood floor with the guard caught in the up position. It wasn't pretty.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:22 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Decided to build the "boatport" on the back patio (remember I'm going to build the GV13, not the C17). I'll start a new thread when I get the "boatport" started. Now, back to those clamps.... :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:41 pm
by Dougster
Can't have too many clamps John. I'll be waitin' on your thread, and am ready to lend a hand on the boatport. I got the foredeck beam glued in and dry fit the deck again with good results. No kerfs needed and no bow droop. Here's the look:
Image
Then I finished up the fillet/tape on the outside of both consoles. It sure went easier than the inside. Here's the starboard one.
Image

Last night I ordered a 17 gallon Ultratank bait well from the websight LarryB posted on CrackerLarry's thread (http://www.imarineinc.com/). Thanks for that post LarryB, I've haven't seen that site before and thought the price a good one. I had wanted to build my own bait tank, but knowing me, I'd spend all summer on it, so dang it, I just bought one. I mean, Nina wants to get wet some day. I'm planning on building it in the bench across the back of the cockpit, right in the middle. Hope it'll work as I envision it.

Takin' those little steps Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:28 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, what's going on? I did some fairing on the inside of my cuddy, hoping to paint soon (more sanding first).
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:28 pm
by Dougster
Daddy---I'm doing odds and ends, waiting the few weeks till I score the hand power planer to do the rails and glue the foredeck. This weekend I taped the outside of the consoles and then sanded both the inside and outside. Also I cut the little triange foredeck piece and dry fit it. Like I thought it needed kerfs, every 1", but then all is well. I got to lookin' at the aft decks and realize it's pretty dang hard to do without the motor, to see how it fits and allowing the range of motion for the motor for tilt as well as port/starboard. Maybe I should call the Etec people to see if they have schematics. I went back through Spokaloo's blog (nice to have it up there Eric) and remembered he built his around the installed motor. Hate to fork over the $$ now, but the commitment might help push me along. I also reviewed your blog and those nice pics of cabins with dodgers or whatever they're called. That's exactly what I have in mind. Friday my bait tank is due in, and I think I cut it close on room in the back bench, leaving just barely enough on either side to sit. We'll see. No great fun sanding the cabin for sure, so I'm glad you got started. Means soon finished. I need to add the two knees for the side deck, but can't till I cut the decks and dry fit it, and can't do that 'till I plane the dang rails. I only have time to work 3 days a week for now (friday, sat/Sun), but that's pretty good. I'm off all summer so hope to kick it up then.

Doin' a little better than treading water Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:45 pm
by Cracker Larry
You're closing in on it Dougster, one step at a time 8) Lookin good. That ain't no little boat. Could you mock the motor dimensions up in cardboard? I've never used a power plane, but a hand plane would knock those rails down in an hour or so :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:10 pm
by Daddy
It is amazing how much pondering goes into these boats Dougster. I know I have spent/wasted? hours but I guess that is part of the fun :doh: So many choices to make. I alternatly move from the bow to the stern when I get stymied with the build. My power plane made short work of easing those 22 foot rails. Try the hand plane and let me know how it goes. :P
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:07 pm
by Cracker Larry
My power plane made short work of easing those 22 foot rails. Try the hand plane and let me know how it goes. :P
Daddy
Don't knock the hand plane Daddy. No noise, no hearing protection, no eye protection, no power, no dust, and I can fair a 22 foot rail in less than 30 minutes with a hand plane. It's a great tool and a pleasure to use. Unlike a long board, which is a great tool and unpleasant to use :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:14 am
by TomW
a hand plane. It's a great tool and a pleasure to use.
I'll take a hand tool over a power tool any time. Even the sanding boards are somewhat therapeutic if taken in small doses. :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:48 am
by Daddy
Dougster, if you are not going to be into woodworking after the build, it might not make sense to invest in the power plane for just this application. Just a thought. I developed an appreciation for one when I had to maintain more than 120 buildings on a college campus, now I am just lazy.
The dealer should be able to tell you what the port/stbd swing of the motor is. Does he have one in stock? I had good luck with the tech support folks at Yamaha when I needed answers on bolt hole patterns, maybe you could make that contact with yours. Hard to work through these probs when you are not sure of all necessary dimensions, etc. Hang in there, Off all summer? Sounds like a great job. I'm sure you earn it the rest of the year. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:36 pm
by Dougster
I did 15 minutes on the rails two weeks ago with my little old stanley low angle block plane (#118 I believe). Bought it on ebay before the build. Read up on bringing the blade back and got it good and sharp. It's not sharp no more :lol: I love it and have used it all through the build. It wasn't up to the rails, with all that gelmagic between the ply rubrail layers. It worked but was slow going and kinda hard to keep track of the bevel angle. I could do it. A nice big two handed smoother plane like I see in the catalogs would be better I bet, but it'd cost dang near what the Bosch power one does. I like the hand plane. No noise and no spinning blades, but I'll probably just get the Bosch. Maybe it'll motivate me to fix the sticky screen door.

Sees weekend coming Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:05 pm
by Daddy
Well, that's kind of what motivated me to use it. About 50% of that one inch wide rail is endgrain and it does take its toll on the blade. The other thing I liked about using the power plane was the ability to gradually tilt the plane to modify the top angle as it goes from bow back. More agressive cut where the flare is greatest. Not sure if I explained what I mean that well. What we are trying to do is reduce that big gap and as there is less flare there is less gap. I would walk the plane along the entire length of the rail gradually adjusting the angle of attack as I went. In the end the decks fit almost perfectly with not too much effort. Not perfect because "gaps are good" :D When you dry fit the decks you can get a pretty good idea how much you need to cut it down. Your hand plane will do the job on the screen door. :P
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:43 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, where are you? How is the boat coming along? I have been sidetracked getting FESTIVUS ready for summer and am already running behind. Have made some small progress on Nina but hot much worth mentioning. Hope you are doing OK.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 9:05 pm
by Dougster
Hey Daddy, I'm doin' fine, just pressed at work as always this time of year. One more week to go and then nearly three months off. The power planer (Bosch) arrived for the birthday last weekend but no chance to even plug it in! That'll change this friday. I have the baitwell (Ultratank) and some fittings (bronze scoop, shutoff, etc). So I've just been ponderin' and 'net shoppin'.

BTW, I got some black anodized aluminum hold down fittings for the bait tank. They are designed to screw to the sole, but I'm sure not gonna drill any holes there. That area under the cockpit sole is sacred. I sealed it for good, crossed my fingers and walked away. Not gonna be drilling in the sole. I can mount the hold down fittings on a 3/4" ply pad and glue the pad to the sole, or, even easier, glue the fittings to the sole. Anybody know if epoxy or 5200 will hold anodized aluminum? I'll post a pic or two this weekend.

Hopin' that dang top fill process works in the gulf Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 9:23 pm
by Daddy
Dougster wrote:
Hopin' that dang top fill process works in the gulf Dougster
Amen to that Dougster.
Don't forget to keep both hands on top of that power planer when you use it. Great tool especially when you get old and arthritic like me. Glad you are fine. I agree with keeping holes of any kind away from your sole. I installed my gas tank and batteries in my GT22 by epoxying 2 inch by 4 inch piece of 3/4 ply blocks to the sole and attached the strap loop to that with screws. If that block rots out some day I will just glue in another and no holes in the sole.
We had three days in a row of temp near 90 and today it went over 90. Very unseasonable for May.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 8:06 am
by TomW
Anybody know if epoxy or 5200 will hold anodized aluminum


Either will hold epoxy takes more work.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 9:45 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Tom, I hadn't a clue. That'll make things simpler when I get there. Tomorrow is fool with the power planer day...With BOTH hands where they belong! I'm spread out on the project too much. Foolin' with this here and that there, baitwell, console, bilge pump. I need to focus on something so the fore deck it is.

Both hands on top of the planer Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 10:30 pm
by Daddy
:D
Dougster, you can gauge how much you need to take off by dry fitting the deck and seeing how big the gap is on the outside and then marking the inside of the hull by that amount, then hold the plane at an angle that will take off nothing on the outside edge and cut down to the inside mark. On my hull it was about a 3/8 to half inch gap, I just free handed it but you might feel more comfortable with some kind of reference mark, maybe even try dry fitting after partially cutting both side to see how you are coming before you cut all, just to be sure you are on the right track. Probably clear as mud but best I can do.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 7:49 am
by cape man
Dougster,

IMHO I would not try and hold the tank down with just epoxy on the alluminum. That tank can create a lot of force when underway, and epoxy doesn't really like to adhere to metal. If you do choose this method, make sure to scratch the surface up good and clean it with acid just before gluing. As to drilling in the sole, if you over drill, fill with epoxy, redrill for a tight fit with your screws, and then use some 5200 when you installl, water will never get in there. I know what your saying about it being sacred, but you can respect that if you use the time tested technique of overdrilling and filling. Using a piece of ply wood as a pad and glueing that down will also work, but don't think you need to.

Don't get me wrong...after sealing the sole drilling holes in it was REALLY hard to do, but I'm confident I did a good job with the screws for the tank and the leaning post on mine.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 7:06 pm
by TomW
Dougster what are you gluing that is aluminum. I may change my answer on that. Epoxy takes more work as you need to sand and acid wash it and join it within about 15 minutes. 5200 will work better in most cases.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 7:55 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, lesson learned recently in my neck of the woods:

Good friend picked up a new project boat for $350, a 33 foot USN fast attack RIB. This boat carried 8 guys total, was aircraft and ship deployable on kevlar slings, had a pair of monster diesels in it, and HUGE pulling bollards which also happened to carry 50 cal machine guns.

My buddy was dismantling the boat to flip it for some hull work when he tried to get the bollards off. Pulled all the SS bolts out, identified the metal as aluminum in the bollard, and it was glued to vinylester laid fiberglass. In the end, it required tying the boat to a 100+ year old tree, tying the bollard to his 1 ton suburban, and pulling in 4 LO with the tires on pavement before he could get it to budge. When it did, it broke free and shot forward something like 20 feet from all the strain getting it apart. What was bonding it?

5200.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 8:08 pm
by TomW
What was bonding it?

5200.
I think that stuff gets tougher with time E. :wink:

Tom

Power Planer

Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 5:05 pm
by Dougster
Here's my new toy, the Bosch 1594k power planer.

Image

It's not so squeaky clean now! What a fun tool. Light weight, smooth, can nibble of 1/64" at a time or plenty more. All that and two places on top to grab hold of so your hands aren't where they shouldn't be. It's very easy to use. Here's what I started with.

Image

That's a piece of scrap bent over the form to simulate the fore deck. You can see the gap, which would need a lot of epoxy and make the rub rail look pretty wide right there. Here's the rail before I started

Image

I wish I'd taken a pic half way through, but didn't. I started with 1/64" and then moved the setting up to 1/32". It wasn't too long before it seemed right. Here's the fore deck clamped down (dry fit).

Image

Not much gap left, I'll take it. It's a tough bend and needs a good glue up when it's time, so I gotta be sure not to squeeze out all the epoxy. On the port side I had already put a cleat on. That was a mistake as I planed 2/3rds of it off! I did the starboard rail without the cleat on yet. I'll try and rip one to the right angle or close.

Loves that new tool Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 6:39 pm
by cape man
That sure is a purdy tool! I'm jealous.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 7:48 pm
by ks8
Good to see a nice tool helping you keep it all moving along. :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 8:20 am
by Dougster
Thanks fellows, that tool looks even better with wood chips and sawdust on it. It sure does help with the rub rail thing. I made a mess out of some of the stern area and have been putting off trying to hand plane it for the stern decks to fit, but now I'm looking forward to it. Today I start on the side decks. Once they're done and dry fitted I can fit the knee that supports them, glue/tape/fair it in and then prime and paint the cabin. Then the great day to finally glue those decks in and move to the stern, bait well, or console, whatever. Feeling grateful.

Having a cuppa and thinkin' a bit about all that Memorial day means Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 9:25 am
by Daddy
Nice job Dougster, I think you got a better fit than I did. I also glued my cleats on before planing but that pine I used planes easy so I didn't mind. Thanks for posting the pics.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 4:52 pm
by Daddy
Dougster wrote:Thanks fellows, that tool looks even better with wood chips and sawdust on it. It sure does help with the rub rail thing. I made a mess out of some of the stern area and have been putting off trying to hand plane it for the stern decks to fit, but now I'm looking forward to it. Today I start on the side decks. Once they're done and dry fitted I can fit the knee that supports them, glue/tape/fair it in and then prime and paint the cabin. Then the great day to finally glue those decks in and move to the stern, bait well, or console, whatever. Feeling grateful.

Having a cuppa and thinkin' a bit about all that Memorial day means Dougster
Dougster, are you going to glass the decks as E recommended? If you are, I would suggest glassing them before putting on the coaming. I didn't and wish I had. What I wish I had done is glass the decks, front, side and all, wrapped the glass around the rub rail, let it set, trim inside and lower edge of rail while still green. Now, in my case the cabin sides and coaming present a challenge as the glass would have to wrap around too many angles and curves. My concern is getting it all to lay nicely along all those surfaces. Not impossible but more of a challenge. I keep putting it off, gotta bite the bullet!!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 6:38 pm
by Spokaloo
Interesting. I'd think if I were to do it again I'd put the coamings on, wrap the glass from the bottom of the rubrail over the side deck and up to the top of the coaming, then trim the edge off there, making a nice edge to cut the green cured fabric off.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 10:01 pm
by Dougster
Definitely gonna glass the decks. Should I go for 4 oz or 6oz? Thanks a bunch for bringin' this up Daddy, I hadn't thought of it. I dunno wanna bend that glass around and over the coaming. Eric, your way sounds OK but what about the inside of the coaming? Either way that little bit may be a pita. BTW, here's my bait tank.

Image

And here's the pickup/pump

Image

The plan is to put it in the cockpit right against the rear bulkhead, where the bench would normally go. There's room on either side for a one person bench seat, with storage underneath. Friday's my last work day for the summer, so I'm charged up about workin' on Nina.

Says good times here but better on down the road Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:11 am
by Spokaloo
Just glass the interior face on its own, cutting the glass back when it is green like the other side. It'll work like a champ.

3.25 oz surfboard fabric would be ideal, as light as possible.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:26 am
by cape man
3.25 oz surfboard fabric would be ideal, as light as possible.
I agree. That's what I used on my gunwales (the surf board cloth Joel sells). Wet out easily and very clear, and gives just that little extra protection from penetration. No need for lots of structural support there, just wanted to protect the wood.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:46 am
by D2Maine
nm

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:13 pm
by ks8
If the pickup pump and seacock assembly are in an isolated compartment that is below the sole, small compartment, watertight compartment at least in regards to any other chambers *under* the sole, and the sole is self-bailing, then even if the seacock or assembly breaks, the most you have is that one isolated compartment flooded. If this is your only *below the waterline* through hull, sounds like an idea to make sure it is in an isolated small compartment, or has a beefier seacock assembly, or both. I have little experience with these things, but am trying to look at it in the big picture, in a *worst case* scenario. The small compartment does not even need a cover (though handy), but only needs to be totally isolated from any other compartments under the sole, a small *bilge box*. If the seacock breaks, that bilge box will be flooded until you get back to port or plug the break and sponge out the box, but no sinking. :)

Show 'em the picture CL... I think that is what you've got on your OD, yes? :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:24 pm
by Cracker Larry
Oh, no, here we go again :lol: ? Yes, and I'm comfortable with it. I've also got a tapered wood plug to drive into that hole if it happens to break :wink: but it's only supporting a 12 ounce pump, it ain't going to break. And like you say, even if it does the boat won't sink.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:34 pm
by ks8
Do you have a picture of it in a small bilge box, CL? I seem to recall... :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:09 pm
by Cracker Larry
Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:06 pm
by D2Maine
nm

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:26 pm
by ks8
No hornets nest here... maybe just some gekkos running about. The bronze thru hull post was very appropriate D2... :wink:
ks8 wrote:If this is your only *below the waterline* through hull, sounds like an idea to make sure it is in an isolated small compartment, or has a beefier seacock assembly, or both. I have little experience with these things, but am trying to look at it in the big picture, in a *worst case* scenario. The small compartment does not even need a cover (though handy), but only needs to be totally isolated from any other compartments under the sole, a small *bilge box*. If the seacock breaks, that bilge box will be flooded until you get back to port or plug the break and sponge out the box, but no sinking. :)
I think I've got best practice covered there. :) That seems to be what CL has got implemented, except for some composites instead of all bronze. :) Well, for best practice, let's officially add a properly sized tapered wood plug lashed to each seacock. But it is not as crucial when the thru hull is in a proper bilge box that extends above a self-bailing sole. :) The isolated *bilge box* with its sides extending up above the top of a self-bailing sole, is going above and beyond *only* a proper bronze through hull and seacock, and puts some balance into the *black box* safety account to enable one to use that other product. I don't think Dougster is planning epic blue water passages. But if so, then there's all sorts of things to be discussed for the commissioning. If there is serious damage in the stern that compromises that bilge box structure, well, then, you'll likely have more to worry about than not having used all bronze thru hull and seacock hardware. :) But I hear ya D2, and that was good advice. The Dougster can always refit later if he wants, if he feels the need, based on his program. A bilge box will make the composition of the though hull and seacock a less critical issue, and a much less expensive lesson, if such a lesson is awaiting *out there*. :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:34 pm
by TomW
i am supprised though it is unlike you guys to give advice that is not best practice :doh:


Don't quite understand your concern here D2 both threads are NPT, Marelon is as nearly as strong as bronze(we have had this discussion before), there is no electrolysis concerns.

For best practice always have a wood plug for factigue in any material.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:44 pm
by Cracker Larry
i take it this has already been discussed earlier in the thread, sorry.
About once a month lately I think :lol: No problem 8)

D2, if it had heavy machinery hooked to it with weight and vibration, like a big diesel water intake, or A/C unit, that was mission critical, or in a location where it could be damaged such as an engine room, then that might be called for. This is just a bait well, it's a 3/4 hole you can plug with a rod butt or snap plug, the pump only weighs ounces, no load, no vibration, can't be stepped on in it's location, a failure won't compromise the boat, that Marelon fitting has the same approval rating as the bronze valve you showed, and it's just as strong at 1/4 the price. Stronger by most ratings. And yes, the pipe threads do match, they are both 3/4 NPT. I'm not so dumb as to screw together unmatched threads below the waterline :wink: Who told you they didn't match? Was it someone who has actually installed one? Your way is better, and costlier, and I would use it anyway if this was the cooling water intake for a diesel, but this is adequate and safe for the application IMO 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:09 pm
by ks8
Thanks for the punctuation CL. :)

And now you know the rest of the story...

:)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:38 pm
by D2Maine
nm

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:58 pm
by ks8
I broadened the topic. I can't speak for CL, but I think he was merely following suit and giving the broad range of details again. If something must burn, let it be the peace pipe. Leaf in the pipe... no gasoline on the fire intended. :D

My curiosity is peeked about the threads out there. I don't need a thru-hull, but good info for the future. I seem to remember reading about the issues in Nigel Calder recently as well.

Having fun with the install Dougster? :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:30 pm
by Daddy
D2, NPSM is a new acronym for me, is the M for marine?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:43 pm
by D2Maine
nm

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:18 pm
by Cracker Larry
I wasn't trying to flame anyone or anything. I didn't even want to participate in this conversation again for the 12th time.
Who told you they didn't match? Was it someone who has actually installed one?
HUH? this is a discussion it is most definately NOT personal! why cast aspersions?
What is the aspersion? Have you installed one? My through hull fitting was 3/4 NPT thread. My Marelon valve was 3/4 NPT thread. The Rule pump I screwed on top was 3/4 NPT thread. It all fits.

I'm done with this again :doh:
just wanted to be sure he understands the risks is all
What are the risks? If that fitting fails, it will probably be because it is sheared off flush with the hull, from hitting a floating object. No matter what the material, the fix is the same, a wooden plug.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:31 pm
by D2Maine
nm

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:13 pm
by Aripeka Angler
yep....still don't see how that matters though
Got any pictures? I am working on my livewell pumps.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:21 pm
by Cracker Larry
Have you installed one?
yep....still don't see how that matters though
Well, :doh: It does matter if it fits or not :doh: You said it didn't fit? Show us a picture of yours. I'll let you put your hands on mine, take it apart if you want to. I'll supply the wrenches. My boat is wide open for inspection. At least 5 dozen members of this group have poked around on it and/or fished on it. Including both Joel and Jacques. It's been to 2 builders meets, as did the boat before it. It's not theoretical and the parts pictures aren't from a catalog. It all fits, and it's all safe.I 'm wide open to you showing me otherwise, or showing us how you did it better. Internet pictures don't count.
quick pic to show the issue if the threads are mixed, the coupling is NPT the thru-hull is NPSM and the other short pipe is NPT.
Why would you mix threads? Buy them all the same :idea:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:22 pm
by Cracker Larry
Got any pictures? I am working on my livewell pumps.
:lol: You beat me.
Show us a picture of yours. I'll let you put your hands on mine, take it apart if you want to. My boat is wide open for inspection
.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:34 pm
by D2Maine
nm

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:49 pm
by Dougster
"Having fun with the install Dougster? :)"

Wow, I come home and looky here :lol: What I do? The marelon shutoff doesn't scare me. I had no idea the threads of the elbow may be different. I'll look at 'em. They sure did seem to screw together well. I'm not sure I even need the elbow, but it gets the pump lower is all. It's nothing to forgo the elbow and see if it gets a prime. If not put the elbow in. The thing will go in the motor well, which will have a bilge pump and a scupper that hopefully is above the waterline. I hope that quite a bit actually. I mean, it's not up there with my wish for world peace, but I would very much like my scupper to be above the waterline. It'll be a while before I get around to the install. And I'll get me a wood plug too.

BTW, thanks for the clarification on the glass around the coaming Eric. I'll order the closest thing to 3.25 Bateau has.

Keepin' his scupper above the waterline Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:09 pm
by Cracker Larry
Since we're still speaking 8) FWIW I'd scratch the elbow if possible. It's just a weak point and flow restriction, unless it is necessary to fit the space, or to get the pump primed. Mine primes upright, but sometimes I have to get someone to move aft if they are large of @ss :roll Once it's primed it doesn't matter who moves where. If you must use an elbow, a plain PVC sch 40 pipe fitting will last the rest of your life, and it's available in NPT. All it's doing is sucking water. No pressure, no stress, if it breaks, plug it :lol: I carry everything from wine bottle corks to 3" tapered plugs. It ain't likely to break. It won't keep the engine from running and the boat won't sink. The important issues are covered :D This is just a bait tank 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:12 pm
by Aripeka Angler
still does not matter though unless it is a backhanded attempt at discrediting a point. expert vs noob so to speak......
:doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:13 pm
by Cracker Larry
I mean, it's not up there with my wish for world peace,
Keeping things in perspective, I like it Doug 8)

World peace ain't looking good tonight though.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:17 pm
by Cracker Larry
still does not matter though unless it is a backhanded attempt at discrediting a point. expert vs noob so to speak......
It wasn't backhanded. I thought I was right up front. Which opinion would you prefer in regards to your boat?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:18 pm
by peter-curacao
:wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:26 pm
by ks8
Dougster wrote:The thing will go in the motor well, which will have a bilge pump and a scupper that hopefully is above the waterline. I hope that quite a bit actually. I mean, it's not up there with my wish for world peace, but I would very much like my scupper to be above the waterline.
:lol:

I don't think I caught any of the other 13 times. Learned a few things this time around. Many thanks to the *panel*. Ok, I think I'm done too. Back I go to trying to fit two cubic feet of locker storage into one cubic foot of space. :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:10 am
by Spokaloo
Joel has 3.25 oz, its surfboard fabric. I have a roll that I bought from BBC, its sweet stuff.

You will probably need to put a diaper on before you start, once you see how easy it wets out you're gonna need it.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:35 am
by Daddy
ks8 wrote:
Dougster wrote:The thing will go in the motor well, which will have a bilge pump and a scupper that hopefully is above the waterline. I hope that quite a bit actually. I mean, it's not up there with my wish for world peace, but I would very much like my scupper to be above the waterline.
Dougster, do you mean you will have a scupper in the bilge well?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:34 pm
by Dougster
What is the "bilge well"? The area right in front of the transom, right behind the bulkhead where your rear bench is what I'm referring to. I have been thinking on putting the bilge pump there, the sonar transducer, and the baitwell pickup there.

Dunno his terms too well Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:34 pm
by Cracker Larry
Yes, that's it and that's what I have in mine. A sump would be a better term. I've got a 1 1/4" drain plug at the transom that keeps the sump drained on the trailer, and it will drain the boat if you pull it while running.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:04 pm
by wegcagle
So that's what it's called. I always called it, "That damn thing I keep forgetting to plug. Only to figure it out in 20 degree weather on my way to the duck blind." :lol: :oops:

Will

You can see I'm not very brief with my nautical nicknames :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:10 pm
by peter-curacao
wegcagle wrote:
You can see I'm not very brief with my nautical nicknames :lol:
boat plug, :doh: hmmmmm its only two letters Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:20 pm
by wegcagle
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:53 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
FYI, pulling the plug to drain while underway is NOT a one person operation :D 8O .
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:17 pm
by Spokaloo
Shoot John, I better quit doin' it then! Just did the drain pull/bilge empty program in my little metal boat for the 4th time this year last weekend....

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:54 pm
by cape man
Quick Dougster...while there's a lull...post some pics! Pics of anything will probably do! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Still diggin' on watching your build Cape Man.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:16 pm
by Daddy
Yes, Dougster, pics of the area of which you speak.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:50 pm
by ks8
Anything... got the shakes... bad.... :help:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:48 pm
by JohnC
Should have clarified the "one person operation", its OK on boats that have a tiller but probably not a good idea on something Nina's size.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:56 pm
by Spokaloo
Yup, steering wheel, no tiller in my boat. It's pretty fun though, make sure nobody is around you, dart back, pull plug, dart to the wheel.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:16 pm
by gstanfield
Maybe there's a line between what is "possible" and what is "preferable" :D :D

George

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:39 pm
by cape man
I pull my plugs while driving....well actually no one is driving while I pull the plugs...thank goodness I have a magic hatch to take care of the helm...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:21 pm
by gk108
cape man wrote:I pull my plugs while driving....well actually no one is driving while I pull the plugs...thank goodness I have a magic hatch to take care of the helm...
Man, that thing's more handy than a pair of vise grips. :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:30 am
by Cracker Larry
I pull my plugs while driving....well actually no one is driving while I pull the plugs.....
Me too, always have. Half the time I'm was the only person in the boat. It aint that complicated :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:52 pm
by Dougster
Sounds good to me. Rather not need to do it, but also would rather be able to if I need to. For clarification, here's a picture of the "motor well", "bilge well", "sump". I think I prefer "sump: 'cuz it's got fewer letters. I mean, take what little pleasures you can find eh? BTW, that sump wants to be raised with a little "sole" for most of the area. Hopefully the little sole will slant a bit to encourage things along in the right direction.

Image

You can see my bait tank fittings right by the bulkhead, where it's gonna go. Re the elbow, I have read that the pumps work better horizontally, plus the impeller is a bit lower that way. My pump is a little 500 gph atwood that came with the tank. Not much I'd, guess. I found a nice looking Rule last night on my laptop but don't have the link right now. It's 750 gph, doesn't come in 500 gph, but is a right angle by design. I'll find and post the link later as it looks like better quality, and there's no need for the elbow.

Here's this afternoon's progress. I used the magic little power planer on the rest of the starboard rail and fit a cheapo luan template for the side deck. I leave the outside edge proud of the rail, hoping to trim the real thing flush with a router bit I bought at HD this week.

Still movin' Dougster



Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:09 pm
by peter-curacao
Live bait on a lobster boat? :doh: Just kidding Dougster looking good man 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:56 pm
by Dougster
Not much to show after the better part of two days cutting and putting in cleats for the decks. Tedious but easy. Thinking about the foredeck I realized I might give some thought to what's going on it (bow light, cleat? chocks? roller?) I have never figured out an anchoring system for Nina. I see self launching bow rollers but dunno how that would work if I can't get up there to it easily to retrieve. Also, if the anchor stores up there wouldn't the roller need to be mounted pretty dang solidly? I noticed this roller as an example.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Marpac-S ... 33470695fe Any other ideas, like maybe stow the anchor in the cabin and have some kinda chocks up in the bow to direct the anchor line through?

Ponders in the evenings Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:44 pm
by Spokaloo
How often are you gonna put her on the hook, and in which conditions Doug? I anchor out on very regular occasion, and almost always just use a cleat on the foredeck unless it is snotty, at which point I lean over and use the bow eye.

The Clippercraft has a roller like that, however, FWIW.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:55 pm
by Daddy
Dougster wrote:Not much to show after the better part of two days cutting and putting in cleats for the decks. Tedious but easy. Thinking about the foredeck I realized I might give some thought to what's going on it (bow light, cleat? chocks? roller?) I have never figured out an anchoring system for Nina. I see self launching bow rollers but dunno how that would work if I can't get up there to it easily to retrieve. Also, if the anchor stores up there wouldn't the roller need to be mounted pretty dang solidly? I noticed this roller as an example.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Marpac-S ... 33470695fe Any other ideas, like maybe stow the anchor in the cabin and have some kinda chocks up in the bow to direct the anchor line through?

Ponders in the evenings Dougster
Same thing I have pondered. E has a different situation as he has no cabin to get in the way of reaching the bow. I plan to put a hatch in the forward part of my cabin so that I can stand on the bunk and lean out over the fordeck to anchor. I have performed the move in pantomime and it looks like it would work. The hatch will be about 19 x 19 and right at the front bulkhead of the cabin. I plan on a good size cleat and chocks in the toerial for the anchor line. Where to store the anchor? The self launching bow roller would solve that I guess. What ever you decide you should put blocking under for extra holding. I want to put in a false stem and the bow roller wouldn't work for me in that case. Always something.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:22 am
by Dougster
OK, I have had these same thoughts. Without the cabin, your solution seems the easiest, Eric. With it, the hatch would be ideal. Otherwise, it's a problem. So next is figuring a good waterproof hatch for the little quarter inch cabin top. I want to buy one, making one will take me forever and be heavy. Daddy, have you bought one yet? Oh yeah, and if I use that bow roller for anchor storage, for sure I'll need some good blocking underneath it.

BTW, I am ready to finish the bow eye. Just need to put some goop in it to seal the threads as much a possible, then tighten her up. I want that done before I glue the foredeck on. I plan on using 5200 for the seal. I guess just squeeze some in, push in the eye, wipe up the excess, and tighten her up. Any folks got negative thoughts about using 5200 for this? I haven't planned on using lock washers, but thought maybe I'd just put some of that thread lock goop on I see in HD. Seem right?

Thinkin' about the little things Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:58 am
by Daddy
I plan to build my own hatch out of 1/4 inch ply, don't think it will be any heavier than store bought. I am sue that you can find one in a catalog, maybe even with smoked glass for more light (page 260 of the Hamilton cat. shows some nice Bomar hatches). The advantage of store bought should be leak proof and ease of installing. I think Chicago Ross showed installing one on his HMD. I really don't know about the 5200 for the bow eye. Maybe some other sealant would be better but someone will chime in I'm sure. Mine came with regular nuts but I am thinking about getting locking nuts. Good idea to install before the deck goes on :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:06 am
by ks8
So far I've used 4200 on hardware, so its easier to pull them off for repainting. :)

Haven't really considered any hardware situations, up to this point, as requiring an eternal bond. More concerned with getting a good multiple coat epoxy seal on all plywood edges, in cutouts, drilled holes, etc. :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:40 am
by Daddy
Dougster, you might enjoy this from Soundings magazine.
http://www.soundingsonline.com/news/dis ... ish-waters
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:02 am
by steve292
I would use some nice stainless nylocs for the bow eye, & bed the eye in 5200, or sikaflex 291, which is about the same.Install it, just tight,wipe of the excess goop, isopropyl alcohol is good for this,leave it 24hrs then tighten it right down. You don't want any wiggle in your bow eye at all :) .
Steve

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:51 pm
by cape man
I drilled my holes for the bow eye tight and had to use a mallet to drive the bolts through. Put 5200 on it just for extra satisfaction and used the nyloc nuts like Steve suggested.

Was helping my friend who builds T-tops and leaning posts the other day and they were installing a leaning post. Slathered 5200 on the deck below the pedestal feet, and screwed her down with large SS screws. They were very generous and sloppy with 5200 and I was freaking out because I have had bad experiences with that stuff sticking to everything you don't want it to.

For clean up they use WD40! Screwed that baby down, liberally sprayed the deck and tops of the feet, and wiped it all up with a rag. Presto! Not only clean, but made a nice bead around the feet. Man was that slick and easy.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:41 pm
by Dougster
Steve, I appreciate the tip about letting the 5200 set 24 hours before really winching it down. Mine had a little slop in it that's gone since I added some more thickened epoxy, but the potential is there. So I'll do the just tight, then cinch it up the next day thing. Like you said, sure don't want any wiggle there. As for Nylocs, well, never heard of such a thing but I'll google it. Also, I may just try that WD-40 thing if the alcohol doesn't work. The inside is finished with tinted epoxy, so no harm there. The bow area, though, is only in primer and I'd be a feared of some kind of ju-ju messin' up the paint bond. Tomorrow I'll finish the cleats if I have enough clamps. I believe it now, you can't have too many. Now I'm off to google Nyloc :D

Learnin' something every day Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:14 am
by TomW
Dougster Nyloc is one brand name, look up anti-vibe hex nut to get a generic search.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:01 am
by cape man
I always just called them lock nuts. They have a nylon insert that keeps the nut from moving easily, so they work like a lock washer.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:36 am
by Dougster
Hah! "Anti-vibe lock nuts". There's a naughty joke there somewhere :lol: Yeah, I googled 'em right after I posted and recognized 'em right away, just never new their name. Nyloc is good, but I'm going with "Anti-vibe". I'll want them in SS of course, I guess 316 if that's the #. HD will have 'em but will they be a sufficient grade of stainless? I'd guess so. We got a quarter inch of rain last night and it's one of those relatively cool, fresh rain smell coffee mornings. Nina's down in my shop, waiting for some more cleats and her new side decks to be cut. Shirley picked our first big tomato this morning.

Says the little things matter Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:46 am
by Daddy
Not sure about the HD stuff, I would try somewhere else :doh: Worst marine :?:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:58 pm
by Dougster
Well, OK, maybe no HD unless someone knows better. Meanwhile, on the anchoring front, I was close to ordering this roller:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Marpac-S ... 33470695fe
Then I see it's for Bruce or Delta anchors which I have never used and, in reading, have mixed feelings about. I lean toward a fortress/danforth for some reason. I guess 'cuz that's what I used on my little 17' bay boat years ago without problem. But I would like to store it on the roller and be able to pull it up on the roller and secure it without banging he heck out of the hull. Since I never used a roller, is that feasible?

Doin' some research Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:42 pm
by Daddy
I have never used a roller either but the only downside to what you described would be the inability to wash mud off the anchor unless maybe you pulled it most of the way up and then let the natural up and down of the bow do the work which would mean drifting a bit, if you motored off like that you would defeat the purpose of not dinging the hull, but, as I said, I have never used one. :D My anchor on FESTIVUS often comes up with mud and/or seaweed and it takes a bit of dunking to get it clean.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:50 pm
by Cracker Larry
Then I see it's for Bruce or Delta anchors which I have never used and, in reading, have mixed feelings about.
I love Bruce anchors and that's what I carry for the main anchor on the OD. Practically un-bendable and unbreakable, holds in about any type of bottom with the least amount of scope. They also store neatly on a pulpit. Danforth styles are best in sand, but they bend easily in rocks and coral. I also carry a Danforth as my second anchor. Not counting my Wang :lol:
But I would like to store it on the roller and be able to pull it up on the roller and secure it without banging he heck out of the hull. Since I never used a roller, is that feasible?
It's feasible if the bow has a lot of overhang, or has a pulpit, to get the anchor away from the hull. Otherwise it takes a good bit of care to keep it from banging the hull.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:01 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, you might need to build more of an overhang as CL mentions. Looking at my Nina and the Bruce anchor would call for more overhang than we have.
http://www.northstaranchors.com/product ... 5Qodm0E4jg
That is a pretty long shaft. Maybe you could add a nice piece of mahogany on top of the foredeck poking out enough for the anchor to be well clear of the hull (someone of the forum did that). Buy the anchor and roller and mock it up. Nice anchor.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:19 am
by Daddy
Maybe you would need to add something like this to the bow of Nina, not sure how it would look though...
http://www.portcarlingboats.com/pb347/pb347-5.jpg
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:36 pm
by fishin'

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:46 pm
by Cracker Larry
Interesting but not real accurate. Just because someone wrote an article doesn't necessarilymake it so :wink: I disagree with some of that.
Bruce anchor
Bruce anchor Despite failing most authoritative anchor tests, the Bruce anchor is still quite popular, mainly because it is so easy to set. It won't penetrate deep so this anchor is not recommended for anchoring at night of above 6 Bft. The Bruce - and other similar โ€œclawโ€ anchors - are ideal though for a short lunch stop.
BS. I'd like to see those authoritative tests. Here's a real test using a tugboat in soft mud. Every bottom condition will favor different anchors, but this test is certified by the American Bureau of Shipping, using manufactures recommended anchor size, recommended scope and chain for the size and weight of the boat. A tugboat with a 1200 HP engine and 72" prop was used for the tests.

http://www.creativemarine.com/newprodct ... r_test.htm

http://www.creativemarine.com/newprodct ... report.htm
Danforth anchor This anchor type is the storm-anchor par excellence
BS. They are too easy to bend to be considered a storm anchor, except on a sand or mud bottom. And it performed dismally in the above tests in mud, as compared to others. The Danforth drug at 200 pounds, the Bruce at 400 pounds in soft mud.
CQR anchor Definitely one of the best anchors around the stockless CQR does wonders in mud or sand
Yep, and coral, rock and anything else. Obviously there are some even better anchors, but we aren't anchoring 40' tug boats and pulling on them with 1200 HP either :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:40 am
by Dougster
OK, this anchor stuff has been timely. I ordered one last night, but will keep it secret till it arrives :lol: I'll soon order a second anchor. I will say I looked at stainless steel and... 8O No, I did not go there. That's a nice pic Daddy. What a big old chunk of wood it is too! I have some pondering to do here. I might well need a bow roller, but storing the anchor up there is problematic, as I realize the chain needs storing too. So next comes an anchor locker and hatch for it and way to feather said rode into hatch etc. And goopy wet mess in locker there in the cabin. There's scant room for all that business. Here's something that I'll guess will incite some strong opinions. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... CEAQ9QEwBQ

I wonder a bit about the chance of fouling the line in the prop on retrieval? Nina does have a big keel protecting her prop, plus the motor in the well, not hanging of the transom, but I dunno. I'd still need a roller or something with an eye to run the rode through at the bow. Chocks wouldn't work.

Also, yesterday I finished cutting out the rest of the side decks. The dry fit looks good.

Image

I left the outside edges a rough cut inch or so proud of the rail. After glue up, come a brave day, it'll be me and router trying to trim it off all smooth and nice.

Has shown no skill with a router before Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:16 am
by cape man
The side decks look great. The anchoring system looks interesting but that's a lot of line running through stuff before getting to the bow. Also, cleating an anchor off to the stern is an absolute mistake in any kind of seas, especially if it gets hung. Last year's accident in the GOM with the football players was just that. Heavy seas, hung anchor, and they swamped her trying to pull free from the stern. Can see where it works if everything is calm and goes to plan.... I'd explore all the options before going that way.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:37 pm
by Dougster
Yeah Cape, the retrieval is the concern. I don't get the worry about the rear cleat otherwise though, since the rode is routed through the bow roller. Have you seen the u-tube videos on using the anchor ball? I would worry about that in big seas too. 'Course I worry about any kind of retrieval in big seas, or big seas in general for that matter 8O Will avoid as possible, but we all know Murphy lives.

Still pondering Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:28 pm
by Daddy
Side decks look great but an inch or so proud is a bit too much. If you can pare that down to about an eighth to a quarter you will have an easier time routing the excess off. You an do an inch but the bit will have to work much harder. Either way you will have your side decks :lol:
We do have a problem with anchoring since the cabin is in the way. I store my rode in one of those plastic milk crates, some use sheetrock pails but the milk crate has better ventilation. With the hatch I have in the front top of my cabin I can set and retrieve right from there. Easy. Try it. I have done more dry sailing in this boat than any other. Still haven't decided on my console, still haven't decided on the type of controls either. :(
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:20 pm
by steve292
That way of anchor retrival is used on about every charter boat in the U.K & lots of private ones. Don't take the turn around the rear cleat as suggested, thats asking for trouble, steam at a slight angle to keep the rode away from the side a little.You don't want to motor fast either, its the bouyancy of the bouy that does the work.
With a small boat, the anchor has to be rigged on a trip as it will pull you round if it's stuck. The chain also needs to be heavier than the anchor, as otherwise, when you stop & turn side on to drift down on the anchor, the anchor will go straight back to the bottom. Google anka yanka, or alderney ring that will tell you more.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:26 pm
by Dougster
Daddy wrote:Side decks look great but an inch or so proud is a bit too much. If you can pare that down to about an eighth to a quarter you will have an easier time routing the excess off. You an do an inch but the bit will have to work much harder. Either way you will have your side decks :lol:
Oops, hadn't though of that! Sure makes sense, so I can just mark it a little proud with a pencil then take it off and run round with the skill saw, staying just proud of that. Thanks Daddy, it wouldn't have occurred to me. I'll try some "dry sailing" soon. Are you close to putting your cabin top on?

Here's the little knees for the bow side decks being glued in:
Image

Tomorrow I'll fillet and tape 'em. Then I can fair them and prime the cabin before paint. I thought a chunk of real wood, finished bright would be nice for those knees, but since it's gotta be strong there they need biax tape, so no bright finish. I have been leaning toward the Kirby paint in there, as it's so easy for a beginner like me to apply. That's it there in the foot well. Also easy to put on another coat in time, as needed/wanted. But Sterling or another two-part LPU would hold up so much better, I know. Anyway, this part of the build sure is fun :D

Having a good time Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:37 pm
by Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:06 pm
by Daddy
Sorry Dougster, missed your post. No, not ready for the top yet. I still need to do some more fairing before I paint and then it will be time for the top. I have been agonizing over this anchoring thing. I am tempted to put an anchor locker on top of the foredeckright up against the front of the cabin. Then I could anchor and retrieve from the hatch in the cabin roof and not have to bring the anchor or rode into the cabin at all. The only trouble is I don't think I am going to like the look. When I get to that point I will mock something up. I did a bunch of dubbing around today on bits and pieces like taking the paint off of my vintage bronze hardware.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:26 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, I've been out of kilter today and yesterday after my annual physical lab results found blood in my stool and required a colonoscopy. I had it today and got happy news so am feeling quite good now. I did get up this morning before the procedure to cut and glue cleats on the now taped in cabin side deck knees. How's that for dedication :lol: Actually I was up early and just needed a distraction. Anyway, back to the anchoring dilemma. You're solution is surely the true fix, but, like you, I fear the look of some box up there on the bow. We're talking 200-300' of line plus some chain in my case, which must need quite some room. My Anchor Ball post earlier works and keeps the wet rode/chain out of the cabin, but there is that line (doubled, really) running around the cabin. Storing the anchor on a roller is good, but where to put the rode? Once my decks are glued down I can "dry sail" her a bit more, but it looks like it's quite a distance from the front of the cabin roof (where I'm guessing your hatch goes to the bow anchor roller or cleats. Can you reach that far? We'll come up with something.

Had his bilge cleaned and inspected Dougster 8O

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:34 pm
by Doc_Dyer
Congrats on the clean bill of health :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:47 pm
by steve292
Had his bilge cleaned and inspected Dougster ]
I have this terrible mental picture in my head,just before bedtime

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:49 pm
by Daddy
Oh boy, that doesn't sound like fun. Must be we are on the same track, I had a colonoscopy last week!! Pain in the a$$. Back to the boat, yes, I can reach just beyond frame A without trying too hard and can easily drop the anchor off to the side too. I have 150 feet of 3/8 rode in a plastic milk crate and it only takes up about 1/3 of the space so figure it wouldnt take too big of a box but still not sure what it will look like. I did some small amount of work on the boat today but spent too much time pondering so went out to where I have FESTIVUS docked and took a nap. 8)
Hope all is well
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:21 pm
by gstanfield
Daddy wrote:... I had a colonoscopy last week!! Pain in the a$$...
Hmm, quote of the year :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:20 pm
by Dougster
Well, dang, Daddy, maybe we are on the same track. Let's get off that one though. Maybe your anchor box could be "inset" into the fore deck a few inches or so, to reduce the height off the stern? That area is too low to sit in anyway and you could put a shelf or somehow use it from inside the cabin maybe. There'd have to be a way for it to drain too, I guess. My dang anchor is back ordered. I'll order the rode and chain next so I can see what I'm dealing with.

Pondering out loud Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:34 am
by Daddy
The drain would be the problem maybe. I wish I had done something different with that area. For one thing, If I had made the cabin about one foot longer I could have used the space in front of frame A for an anchor locker and still reached it from the hatch in the cabin roof, but I didn't so that is out. Another option might have been to recess the whole foredeck as I have seen on some boats and use that area but too late for that option. Funny, as I look at the boat I can see these possibilities now but don't have the heart to tear stuff out and start over. It will all work out somehow.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:24 am
by ericsil
Nice to see you are coming along down there in Blanco. I must have missed something. To me the space ahead of frame A just screams for an anchor rode. I remember when we rolled the boat I was envious of you having that little compartment. I have to store my rode in a canvas bag hanging over the front of the V-berth. Just keep the anchor on the roller and feed the rode into a hole. Any drainage should go down into the bilge. It does require you sit on the front deck, but you can have a little lunch hook in the rear for short, calm stops. If you are really worrying about the space, buy some braided anchor line.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:06 pm
by Daddy
ericsil wrote:Nice to see you are coming along down there in Blanco. I must have missed something. To me the space ahead of frame A just screams for an anchor rode. I remember when we rolled the boat I was envious of you having that little compartment. I have to store my rode in a canvas bag hanging over the front of the V-berth. Just keep the anchor on the roller and feed the rode into a hole. Any drainage should go down into the bilge.

Bilge? who has a bilge? :D

It does require you sit on the front deck, but you can have a little lunch hook in the rear for short, calm stops. If you are really worrying about the space, buy some braided anchor line.
I have decided (maybe) to use Dougster's suggestion and hang a box under the foreward deck for the anchor and rode. It will take about six inches out of headroom that doesn't get used anyway. I agree about the area in front of frame A but it is too far away from my cabin hatch and to tell the truth I am not too steady in my old age and setting the anchor on a calm day would be fine but if it gets rough I would be in the drink still before the anchor got set :cry: Standing up in that hatch would feel a lot better. :) I could set the anchor in any weather from there. I will cut a weep hole in both sides of the hull at the back corners of the hatch. Still wish I had made the cabin a foot longer.
Daddy
btw, got my Wooden Boat Mag today :D :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:04 pm
by Dougster
You're killin' me Daddy :lol: Since I haven't glued down the foredeck or cut the cabin sides, I could still do that mod (extend the cabin forward a foot or more). This designing on the fly is tough for a first timer though. Eric, you made me give that locker space in front of frame A a look and dang it, your right, it's plenty big. I'd have to raise the sole on it a bit to get enough above the water line for a couple of weep holes on each side is all. But thinking about it, the anchor roller would need to be on a pulpit, a big old piece of wood sticking out proud of the bow. Otherwise it seems like the anchor would bang on the bow every time I pull it up. That piece of wood would need to extend aft quit some ways, maybe past frame A. Would I then put the hole for the rode just along side the pulpit? Directly over the space in front of frame A, but to the side? Lord, for a picture.

Regarding moving the cabin forward, I wonder 1) what that does to her lines and 2) if it moves much weight forward. I guess not much, but some. Gotta have a plan though, cuz I'm with you on not trying to anchor in any choppy water up there on the stern. I'm reasonably spry for 61, but probably less so every year. I'll talk it over with Nina a little tomorrow. It's time to fair in the cabin side deck knees, prep, prime, and paint the cabin too.

Be talkin' to Nina Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:38 am
by Daddy
I feel your pain Dougster. I mocked up an anchor locker under the foredeck and decided against it after all. I dont know where I will keep the anchor but will store the rode in the space ahead of frame A. I will put in another "floor" in just over the bolts for the bow eye and use a chain pipe to feed the rode in. http://www.greenboatstuff.com/abipobrdepi.html I am not going to have a roller but maybe store the anchor on the foredeck in appropriate fittings (not sure the name). Designing your boat on the fly is a PITA but fun too. Just adds a boatload of time to the process :D
Daddy
P.S. Wait til your old bones hit 76 :roll:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:41 am
by Daddy
Sorry, I missed part of your question, about extending the trunk cabin forward. I think it would look fine but in the eye of the beholder as they say. I am satisfied now with mine as I have decided as mentioned above. As far as where to put the chain pipe vis a vis your roller lumber. Not sure but couldn't it go through that piece just forward frame A? Sketch it out, mock it up and the answer will be revealed. :) That's what I spent all day yesterday doing. :help:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:28 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I installed a shelf forward of frame A roughly dividing the vertical distance. This will give me more than ample room for 2 or even 300 feet of rode and chain. I found a great old bronze chain pipe in a box of old hardware that I bought and that will be how I feed the rode. I left a 4 X 16 inch space open near the top of frame A to give some ventilation to the locker and also allow a hand to get in there if ever needed, covered the 3/8 ply shelf with 12 oz. biax and now need to fair when cured, then drill two weep holes at the low point on each side. The shelf has a positive pitch aft. I plan to store the anchor on deck using something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 1103wt_712 The space under the shelf is still usable for whatever might fit. I found an interesting discussion on another forum on how to fix the bitter end of the rode and the plusses and minuses of various methods.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:36 pm
by Daddy
This makes my project look like child's play. http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/Web_ ... ocker.html
but to tell the truth, I like mine better and not sure I would use pink board structurally either, maybe divyncell.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:45 pm
by Cracker Larry
Daddy, just a thought about the weep holes. I assume these would run into the bilge? All kinds of funk, sand, mud, weeds, jellyfish... comes in on the anchor line. That locker will get funky and you'll need to hose it out from time to time. I'd recommend a standard drain plug directly to the outside of the hull. You can see mine here just above the waterline, makes it real easy to wash out.

Image
I found an interesting discussion on another forum on how to fix the bitter end of the rode and the plusses and minuses of various methods.
My unsolicited opinion is not to fix the bitter end. I prefer them to be able to run free for various reasons. At times you may need to tie on additional line, at times you may need to use the anchor line as a tow line and need to get to the bare end. When anchored up fishing for large fish like Cobia and sharks, we rig a float to the anchor line. When we get a good hookup, we just untie the anchor and throw the float, then we are free to chase the fish, return later and pick up our anchor buoy. An emergency may arise where you have to leave anchor quickly, such as being run down by a RORO freighter in the middle of the night 8O True story. And you maybe without a knife, and no time to find one. Lots of reasons to let it run free. Of course, you need to clearly mark your line so you'll know when it's about to go. Use red tape and mark it 25 or 30' from the end so it doesn't accidentally get away from you.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:37 pm
by Daddy
No bilge in my Nina, the weep holes will be on the sides of the hull like yours but quite a bit above the water line, open all the time. Lots of opinion on tying off the bitter end. If you do a sharp knife must be at hand. Lots of opinion in various forums, here's one: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum ... C_ID=21312
There are others too, some say tie off, others say no. I imagine watching the bitter end fly out of the chain pipe would be an awful sight but not if you were in the path of a freighter!. :)
Daddy
BTW Larry, your opinion is always solicited

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:59 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for the input Daddy. I have been pondering on. Your chain pipe will go just in front of frame A, right? How much of a reach is that to guide/feed it in? I suppose once it starts gravity helps. I can reach it but it seems like a little stretch. Then I thought, it will be different after the cabin is installed, as the front windshield section slants back and the hatch must be offset 3". It would look dumb I guess but a little anchor roller on the side would make raising the thing easier. Can't see hanging one there though. The anchor chocks look great. If you can reach forward enough to feed the chain pipe, I wonder if a little wood anchor pulpit and self launching roller would work? It's that reach that worries me. BTW, I've been reading about "8 plait" line and it may help feeding through the chain pipe and avoid rat's nest tangles. 'Course more $$ than 3 twist nylon. BTW, I've never understood enough good reasons to secure the bitter end of the rode and was cheered to hear someone with your experience chime in the same way Larry.

Daddy, have you bought a hatch yet or did you say you'd make one? I don't want some dang leaky thing, drippin' into the cabin. I dunno a good one from a bad one, but I bet the good ones are pricey. No leaks though, can't have it. As one more twist, I re-considered a hatch on the foredeck. I notice I can lay on my side or back and easily slide in there. Then I could reach up, open the hatch and sit up, albeit I'd be facing the wrong way, but not hard to turn around and stand up if the hatch was big enough? It's giving me a headache. Anyway, I got an e-mail saying my anchor is being sent, so here we go. Yesterday I quickfaired the side deck cabin elbows and today I sanded 'em good, then sanded more around the cabin area in general for a couple of hours. A gallon of System 3 primer came from Bateau yesterday, so tomorrow is put a couple of coats of primer on in the cabin day.

Says we'll get there Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:09 pm
by Cracker Larry
BTW Larry, your opinion is always solicited
Thank ya sir :wink: Just something to think about. 8)
I've been reading about "8 plait" line and it may help feeding through the chain pipe and avoid rat's nest tangles. 'Course more $$ than 3 twist nylon.
3 strand is usually preferred because of it's stretch and shock absorbing properties. The stretch in the line dampens a lot of the force and keeps the anchor from snatching out. Also puts less load on the deck hardware. Braided line has very little stretch. Sort of like the difference between mono and braid fishing line. 3 strand won't usually tangle, if it's just flaked down and allowed to find it's way. It's people who try to coil it that cause tangles. I always terminate the bitter end with a long eye splice. This makes it simple and quick to attach another length of line, tie a float to it or use it as a tow line. And it gives you one last thing to grab for if you see it going over the side :P That won't happen if you mark the line 25' from the end, and pay attention :lol:
Says we'll get there Dougster
Says you are getting there 8) You've come a long ways :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:07 pm
by Daddy
I'm pretty sure that I will build my own hatch and think I can make it watertight. I am not keeping the hatch 3 inches back from the front of the cabin. I don't think it will matter there. I have even considered taking three or four inches out of the top edge of the front of the cabin to gain more reach. The hatch would have to be L shaped to do that and I have seen it on several other boats. I will put a lip proud of the cabin top and fit the hatch around it and add some hatch tape to make it tight. Store bought are pricey but the main reason is the way it would look and work. Is it too late for you to grab another 6 inches off the foredeck for the cabin? I find when I am standing on the potty lid that I can reach well beyond frame A. If I do the L shaped hatch it will almost let me climb out onto the deck. More pondering. I don't want to make that cut til I am very sure that it wont look wrong. I have worked a nice trim all around the cabin top edge and hate to spoil it.
I have had good luck with 3 strand not tangling. I just flake it into my milk crate and it takes care of itself.
Now I am picturing you crawling up under the deck and trying to get yourself turned around. Almost makes me claustrophobic thinking about it :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:48 am
by Dougster
Daddy, it's not too late for me to extend the cabin. I have the foredeck and side decks cut but not glued in. The cabin sides are not cut. So I guess I could just extend the lines of the side decks a foot or so into the foredeck and basically cut a notch in it the size of the cabin extension. I need to draw it to check the look of that in profile. It's a head scratcher, for sure, and all hinges on a good hatch design.

Larry, thanks for the post. I have read of the lower stretch and did not like that. Otherwise it's nice. I had three strand for my little 17' bay boat years ago and just flaked it into a bucket; never had any problems. But using a chain pipe, I dunno. You can't control it, just push it and let gravity do what it will. Tangles would be a big pita. I mean, there you are, head stuck out of your cabin lowering the anchor, and the rode jams in the chain pipe. Pita. I'd tend to trust your judgment though, given you've dropped an anchor a few thousand more times than I have :lol:

Gotta get primer on the cabin today Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:22 am
by Daddy
Dougster, talk about a pita, this hatch thing is driving me crazy. Your idea about a hatch in the foredeck rather than the cabin roof got me to thinking and I actually see the possibilities. Boy that sure would make it all easier other than the actual wrestling match you would go through to get there. I got the first mate to go through the cabin and she could, with some difficulty, duck under the front of the cabin and stand up close to frame A. I tried myself but it was tight. Imagining me at the helm with motor running while she is retrieving the anchor seems like a good plan, unless it gets fouled somehow.
I don't think you need to worry about the rode getting hung up. Chain pipes have been used for ages. I checked my glassing job that I did on the shelf in the anchor locker and it came out pretty good, needs minimal fairing. One thing about having the hatch in the foredeck is it will allow me to put the chain pipe over the center of the locker rather than the edge. Should function better?
Lay on that primer. :)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:58 pm
by Dougster
Wiped the cabin down with alcohol rag and put on the first coat of primer. Whole thing somehow took over two hours and left me pleasantly tired. I'd like to put another coat on this afternoon. I did the roll and tip thing, and boy I'm not much good at it, especially when crawling around trying to get nooks and crannies. 'Course the S3 primer is so forgiving it's ok. It made be glad I decided against LPU paint for the the cabin interior. I'm putting on a Kirby pale green, which I know is easy to lay on, 'cuz I used Kirby in the foot well. I figure it would be easy to repaint with enamel in there in the future as well. I'm thinking Sterling for the the decks and sole, with some of that Kiwi whatever you call it for antiskid. The side panels may just be Kirby. I like the colors and wouldn't dread re-painting as much if need be.

I checked out the cabin plans sheet again right after I laid the primer and noticed Jacques draws a hatch in the foredeck. Pushes me that way. As it evolves, it seems workable. Looks right there too. A self launching bow roller on a chunk of wood may make things easier still. If anchoring is still a problem, I think the way I'll go is the anchor ball method I posted earlier. You never have to go forward. You do have to pick up rode as you go past the ball and avoid fouling the line in the motor, but everything has pros and cons. Going forward in rough weather has it's down side too. One thing about a foredeck hatch, even if you couldn't crawl under to it, you could leave it open and step down into it for a safer position to work the anchor after you get forward. Seems important to put good hand rails on the cabin roof, whatever we do.

I'm not locked on the bow roller yet, but if I do, what's a good wood? Teak or mahogany, sure. I have a good size chunk of Doug Fir left over from the keel. It's a bit over an inch thick. Think that would do? If it's rot prone I could glass it and paint it, but that seems odd, to paint an anchor pulpit. Still, keeping it bright would be maintenance I don't really want.

Pondering on Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:44 pm
by Daddy
Fir should be fine for the pulpit/anchor roller thing. Good boat wood. My keel is made from fir too. I tried crawling up under the foredeck but really can't do it. I'm just too big. Good idea about leaving it open to step down into plus the wife fits so that is a plus. A friend of mine just gave me a piece of teak, 5/4 X10" X 8'. Should be good stock for making grab rails.
I think I am going to set my chain pipe in place and feed some rode into it just to see how it goes.
Glad you got some primer on, you're gonna beat me yet. :lol:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:55 pm
by chicagoross
Been following this build for some time - still a possible Nina in my future. Sure is exciting that Dougster (and Daddy too) are getting close enough to the launch to be seriously considering the "in use" effect of all the little modification details that get added in to a boat. Lots of time in the thinking chair! :D It'll pay off in the end, the "ergonomics" thinking...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:29 pm
by Daddy
Happy the day when you join us :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:01 am
by Dougster
Yeah, that would be good Chicago. Glad you've been sticking with me through all this. This forum and the folks posting made it possible for me to get this far. Yesterday I got a second coat of primer on, and it sure went on easier. Plenty of pin holes and such, but it's OK. One more coat this morning and then I think I'll just coat the anchor locker forepeak section with grey tinted marinepoxy. I still need to find 2 dang 3/8" nylock stainless nuts for the bow eye. HD has 'em but who knows what grade of stainless they are. I want, what, 216 or is it 316? Anyway, I found some online and went to purchase and they required I buy a whole $60 box :lol: Maybe not. There's a West Marine an hour from here, so maybe there.

Now that I'm homing in on a foredeck hatch, it's getting to be hatch design time, unless there's some affordable option that won't leak. I'd guess not. I need some sketches. Probably the thing needs a raised lip, heh, with the hatch fitting over and around it? But how to hinge it? Your right about the details Chicago. They take time but are a big part of the fun. I read an essay by Bono yesterday where, in referring to that old "the devil's in the details" adage he suggested that God is in them too. I like that. Daddy, that's one big old piece of teak. I'd call that a good friend.

Thinkin' bow rollers, pulpits, and hatches Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:28 pm
by Cracker Larry
Doug, yes 316 is what you want. I'm a big fan of Nylocs but in a pinch, a lock washer and a dab of thickened epoxy on the threads, or a dab of Loctite thread lock compound, or 5200 will hold it forever more. When I don't have one and don't want to drive an hour, I use some thread lock and put 2 nuts on the bolt for a jam lock. These bolts will get 5200 when you install them anyway. The 5200 will lock the nuts just as good as a Nyloc, better even :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:48 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I am leaning more towards the foredeck hatch too, just wish I was a bit more flexible. I am pretty sure that whatever way I go I will build my own hatch. There are lots of hinges specific to hatch use, some even allow you to remove the hatch which seems like a good idea. Probably not too hard to make a screen panel to fit either. I can just see SWMBO standing in, what shall we call it, the "forepeak" hauling in the rode while I strike a pose at the helm softly offering words of encouragement. :D I do dream sometimes.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:11 pm
by Doc_Dyer
Dougster wrote:Wiped the cabin down with alcohol rag and put on the first coat of primer.
uhhhh, photos please 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:19 pm
by Daddy
Doc and all, I am going to the wooden boat show in Mystic CT this weekend and will post pics in my blog when I get back :)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:54 pm
by Doc_Dyer
Daddy wrote:Doc and all, I am going to the wooden boat show in Mystic CT this weekend and will post pics in my blog when I get back :)
Daddy
uhhh, you are going to post pictures of Dougsters boat in primmer? :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:32 pm
by Dougster
No, I think that's my job :lol: I'm bettin' Daddy's gonna give us some boat show pics. I'm putting in requests for anchor pulpits, dodgers, bimini tops, and generally cool boats. Re the primer pics, here's what happened. I go down there a couple hours ago to take a pic and dang it, the third coat of primer is all stripped. Don't guess it much matters but it irritated me so I just finished putting a fourth coat on :roll: Looks a little better, but still gonna have some stripes. I guess my wet edge is drying or something. It's inside with a window unit AC running, maybe lowered the humidity, but temp is around 80. Anyway, it's fine for primer but I need to learn this roll and tip thing. Pics tomorrow :D

Tryin' to keep his edge wet Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:56 am
by Dougster
Big family wedding coming up (nephew) so no boat building the next few days. Meanwhile, I found this link for anchor rodes at maybe good prices: http://www.secosouth.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?

Notice the 8 "brait" line. I believe I was confused earlier and talked about 8 "plait" line (vs "brait" :doh:) As I read about the "brait" line I notice some report it has even more elasticity, not less, than standard 3 braid. The prices aren't that different between the two lines in the above link. A search under 8 brait line elasticity is interesting but I have found no actual charts measuring the lines' elasticity. They seem to like saying it has more "energy absorption" leading to "lower pullout force" on the anchor. That's not what attracts me to it, though. It's that it stores in half the space and resists "hocking" (which I take means tangling). The down side is it's hard to splice and not many yards do it. So the beat goes on. Anyway, UPS tells me I'm soon to receive my anchor. It's a 16 lb claw. Next is the rode and bow roller. Here's the roller I'm currently looking at. http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2. ... L2058-BRM2 What do folks think? BTW, I'll be out of pocket a few days but hope to get time to post.

Still on it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:18 pm
by Cracker Larry
Good roller Doug, it will be perfect for your Bruce. Good choice in anchors too :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:35 pm
by Daddy
You can splice it Dougster, seems fairly straight forward
http://www.yalecordage.com/pdf/brait_to ... splice.pdf
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:58 am
by Dougster
Nice link Daddy, I've never spliced anything of course, but those directions are good. I'll bookmark that for sure. Larry, your feedback helped with the anchor selection, as you might guess. I had previously read of their short scope capacity and was attracted to that since I'll primarily anchor to fish and would, as you pointed out, appreciate less reach or swing on a shorter scope. What you read is what you read though, but hearing that you have like them was good confirmation. It's good to hear I'm on the right track choosing a bow roller too.

Staying on it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:51 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, saw several of the bow rollers of the type you chose while at the boat show, I will post some pics soon. Did not see nary a bimini or the like. Lots of smaller boats and sail boats. One great lobster yacht. Nice guy, very glad to visit and explain the hows and whys of his boat.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:18 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, new pics on my blog, several anchoring systems featured, sorry, no bims or other shelters. click on individual pics to enlarge.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:00 am
by Dougster
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to post those pics Daddy, they are just the kind of thing that helps me. I envy you the trip. I just got back from Baltimore for a nephew's wedding. It was a busy 4 days with no chance for any boat related activity. I did return to find a nice Bruce anchor on my doorstep however, which encouraged me enough to order the bow roller :D Right now I find myself thinking about fastening the anchor pulpit to the foredeck. I'll use backing plates, of course, but it occurs to me that all the force goes to the only thing that fastens the deck to the boat: the 2" epoxy glue joint along the rail. Is that really strong enough? Sure it's stronger than the wood, but is that first veneer of ply gonna hold, or could it delaminate? I wonder if I should wrap some glass around the the joint there, at the sheer. That is, over the rubrail and onto the deck? Don't really want to but thought I'd get folk's opinion.

While I'm asking questions, I have wondered if you are gonna glue down the foredeck, then cut and build the hatch, or cut it and fashion it before the glue up? I wondered if cutting the hole before gluing would effect the camber when you went to bend it over the beam to glue it. Guess it wouldn't, and if it tended to flatten a bit at the hatch opening cut maybe that's fine. Anyway, today is time to start on the shelf in the anchor locker, like you made. Seems like you slanted it aft, so there would be two weep holes, adjacent to frame A.

Glad to be home and back on the build Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:00 am
by Daddy
I have a frame member going from the bow to frame A to help with the camber which will have to be cut after installing the deck for the chain pipe, unless I put it off center. Will cut out and build the hatch after the deck and glass are installed, I plan to wrap the glass over the edge and onto the rub rail on all decks and cabin roof (I have a 1" pine cleat to the top edge of the outside of the cabin sides for extra glue surface and will round it over before glassing) . The shelf angles down to frame A (just enough I hope) and will have two drains next to A, one on each side. I understand your concern about the hold of the pulpit on the foredeck, I would definitely plan on glassing it in and some good backing under the deck. Do you plan on a bright finish or paint?
I will post some pics on my blog of the recent progress, will try to do that this morning.
Glad you are back at it.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:40 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I have posted pics of the foredeck on my blog, click on pics to enlarge, click again to enlarge more. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:53 pm
by TomW
Dougster I would also fiberglass it all the way. It can take quite a beating if you have to anchor in rough weather. You will also be through bolting your bow roller to the deck so make a good sized cleat underneath the deck to spread its forces.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:43 am
by Dougster
Yeah, you guy's don't need to convince me, it's pretty obvious there'll be a lotta stress on that seam/joint. I am thinking about 12oz biax for the whole foredeck, wrapped around to the rubrail. Then maybe less weight for the side decks, like 4 oz. What weights are you using Daddy?

Moving step at a time Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:41 am
by Daddy
Don't know yet, 12 oz would sure make it strong. I am just about to put the cabin top in place, have spread my poxy glue and hope SWMBO will come home just in time to help set it in place. Did you have a chance to check out my latest blog posting?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:21 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, your blog pics are make me envious of the lateral support beams, the center one temporary. Also I see the cabin roof has what looks like a hatch framed in there? Or are you still going with the foredeck hatch? If you recall, I have as yet put no support arched beam in at the aft edge of the foredeck, preferring to dry fit it over a temp stand. When I dry fit it and pull out the stand it settles a bit less than 1/4", but may not when clamped. I'm thinking of adding a little laminated beam there after the glue up. I'd make it of 2" or 3" strips of ply or whatever and glue them underneath. Maybe build up an inch or so. When I get closer to that I'll post a pic of the idea dry fitted. I just ordered my anchor rode today: 1/2" eight brait with 15' of chain. That will give me all the pieces of the anchoring puzzle: rode, roller, and anchor. No excuse left then :lol:

Re 12 oz. glass, as I think of it I may just use 12 oz tape along the rubrail joint/seam and lesser weight for the top of the deck. Your moving lot's faster than me, and it's good to have you out front posting those pics! Good luck with the glue up.

Heading down to work on the anchor locker shelf Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:35 pm
by Dougster
Oops, scratch that cabin top hatch question. I see the red lines on the center temp lateral beam that you say you'll cut for the foredeck hatch. I guess that's just bracing for the cabin roof.

Sees it now Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:44 pm
by Daddy
Yep, going with the foredeck hatch although it is a tight fit for me. SWMBO did not make it home in time to help with the cabin top but I was able to do it alone. I was worried about sliding it around and smearing the nice bead of poxiated glue that I had spread but I got lucky and it laid right where I wanted it without having to move it more than 1/4" in any direction. Then I mixed up a cake decorating bag full of fillet material and went inside and gave it my best shot, got most all before I ran out. As you know, I have not cut in my ports yet, will have something like E put in his Stray and only have an access hatch to get in and out. Good idea on the biax tape but would it really add that much weight to do it all? You will be cutting some away with the hatch. I think I will do a lighter weight glass on all the decks and cabintop. Still pondering on that one. :doh:
Daddy
I will post some pics of the top in a day or so.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:49 pm
by Daddy
Forgot to mention a comment on your temp support for the foredeck. I would leave that in place until you put in the sides of your cabin and glass the foredeck into the cabin front with 12 oz biax inside and out which will give you lots of support for that deck, just a thought.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:35 pm
by Dougster
Daddy that's a good tip. As I said, when it's dry fit and the brace is pulled out, the deck drops a scant quarter inch. I think maybe it just relaxes and just goes more fair, since the temp brace is not a perfect arc. I may let it relax after glue up, then adjust the temp brace and put it back. I cut a template for the shelf out of luan scrap today that fits. I started with 1" drop over the 18" run of the shelf. How much did you put in? I'm waiting on the rode to get here to make sure there's plenty of room, as I can not conceptualize how much space it needs. Kinda can't do much on the cabin 'till then so maybe tomorrow I'll face the stern. I have nothing done there, no scupper, no cockpit drain, no bait well intake/overflow holes drilled, no sonar transducer hole or whatnot figured out, no baitwell hole drilled for water pickup, no bilge pump hole, etc. Not to mention no decks cut. Maybe I can find something to do while I wait for the anchor rode :lol:

Doin' eight knots against a seven knot current Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:45 pm
by Daddy
Mine is about the same, wont take much to get it to drain. I drilled my holes today and coated them inside with epoxy, will do again a couple of times. The 8 brait says to soak with water before installing, interesting. I am looking for something to put on my "shelf" that will hold the rode just off the shelf so that air can get under it, thinking of cutting the bottom out of one of those plastic milk crates, maybe not. Feels good to be getting a lot done on the boat, great when you don't have to start the day by building a fire!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:20 am
by Daddy
Forgot to mention about my dithering on how to handle the transom area on mine. I have a 2 inch hole in the center where sole meets transom, have a plug for inside and a flapper for outside. No idea on where to place the splashwell floor, several options present themselves. Still agonizing over seating, just a bench athwart or along the sides? Glad I have the cabin top to work on!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:10 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, if you lived near by I might have Nina splashed by now! I don't wanna think about where I'd be w/o you, Eric, Mulletchoker's gallery, and Cracker Larry's fine thread and support. Lots of other guys too, like Tom, Capeman, plenty more. Now on that transom thing, which I'm glad you brought up. I assume you refer to the "real" transom (I get 'em confused), the one with the motor on it. How are you draining water from the cockpit into the motorwell? Just open holes? I have had a thought to drill two 2" holes side by side that just touch to create a 4" by 2" oval opening at the base of that "false" transom to drain the cockpit. Maybe two of them, actually, one one each side of my baitwell, which sits in the cockpit, centered, flush against the "false" transom.

I'll have two single person bench seat areas on either side of that bait well. At the consoles, sitting on constructed boxes I'll put two nice swivel chairs on, one for helmsman, and one to port. I have just been admiring Spokaloo's recent build and notice his seat boxes are quite nice, with a lower section behind them for more storage. I ponder on that, though it may use too much cockpit space.

Oh yeah, how big are your anchor locker drain holes? I notice you don't bother to overdrill, epoxy sludge fill, and redrill, which seems unnecessary to me there (just several coats of epoxy inside the interior of the hole to be sure).

Got lots more questions than answers Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:43 pm
by Daddy
Good that we all help each other, that's why we are here.
I happened to pick up my 5/8 spade bit when I went to grab my drill and that is what I used, 3/4 or 1 inch wouldnt be too big I am guessing. If I were in salt water where I'd be likely to pick up a lot of flotsam and jetsam I would have made them bigger but our water is fairly free of stuff that would get caught in the holes. Hard to drill those holes in my nice hull. I held the drill at just a little bit of a downward angle and tight against A because it didn't want to get into it, came out just right, drilled until I could see the pin hole of the pilot tip and then drilled from the outside in, sanded the hole with rolled up paper and coated with poxy, got another coat on today.
The 2 inch hole is through the wood that holds the motor, whatever name we give that piece. The center part of my bench seat will not go to the sole (and be fully removable too) so that I can get closer to the motor if I need to so water can run right through to the hole.
I dont know if you remember but when I did my motor well opening in the hull I made it narrower than the plans called for which game me 2 sq. ft. more hull in the water which I am guessing gives me more bouancy and more planing surface. For that reason I did not put my gas tank forward of frame C as in the plans. I am going to wait until I launch and see where she sits and where I need to add or move weight to get the trim that I want and then I will locate gas and batteries. I will start with a 6 gallon portable and a battery under the bench. The front of the bench will be wide open so shouldn't be a problem. I want to be sure that I have positive drainage towards that scupper because I will keep her in the water all summer.
As far as seating I have no firm idea other than the bench in the back. I like E's seats too, maybe that is where my gas tank will live.
Didn't mean to be so long winded :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:46 am
by Spokaloo
If I were to do it again, I'd do a horseshoe shaped bench, leaving a little space between the console and the bench to sit forward. Also, the helmsman could use a little leaning post, which I haven't gotten around to building yet.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:30 am
by Daddy
E, I like the seats you put in your stray. I have two matching antique iron tractor seats that I am considering using as helm seats, mounting them on swivels so I can face front or rear (when at anchor of course). Kind of funky, but that's me. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:12 am
by Dougster
I kinda like the tractor seat idea. Eric, your layout sounds like it would add lots of storage, but wouldn't it make fishing problematic, as you couldn't much stand at the gunnel in the cockpit with the benches there? I'm laying it out with only two people in mind as that will be the 90+% use.

Daddy, I want to be sure I have this straight. Does your cockpit drain directly to the motorwell, where you have your 2" scupper hole? I think surely it does but want to be sure I'm not missing something. BTW, I do recall your nice adaptation of Nina's back side but had not realized until you said that, yes, that will increase flotation back there. I think it was nice not to have to install that fuel tank under the cabin sole, which for me was a pita.

Gettin' by with a little help Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:22 am
by Spokaloo
For fishing, I'd put in seats like Atkin designed for Ninigret. Two pedestal seats and a bench across the back. Timm Schlieff went a step further and put in these little snazzy seats, not a bad idea at all for you southerners:

Image

Or completely open behind the pedestals:

Image

And a subtle reminder of boats of the past:

Image

Image

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:11 pm
by Daddy
OK Dougster, I am going to take some pictures (worth a thousand words) and put them on my blog. The 2 inch hole is in the clamping board (curse that transom/false transom confusion) It is on top of the sole but under the splashwell. A picture, that's the ticket. The other thing I did not like about the location of the gas tank was that in applications like yours and mine it make a wide step down into the footwell while ducking under the top. Oh, I wish I had my cloth, the top is ready and I am not. Called the store and the only 60 inch cloth Jacques had was 9 oz. and I wanted 6 so had to look elsewhere. Top is 58 inches bow to stern. Still have plenty of time to decide on helm seats, might just use my 26 inch bar stool for a while. The trim is the issue, until I see how that lies I will wait on some stuff. While I ponder :doh:
Daddy
Great pics E, I have a bunch of them in my folder, interesting on the variations of a theme, Ninegret has been around for more than 20 years.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:08 pm
by Dougster
OK Daddy, that's what I thought, but I was wondering about the "other" transom, that makes the back of your bench seats. I'm wondering how you get water out of the cockpit. I assume you drain under the benches, then through the that little fake (i.e.) has no motor on it transom. Whew, we should have just called the thing the aft cockpit bulkhead I guess :!: Anyway, I'm full of questions and here's another. How wide is your foredeck beam, the one that spans the hull right at the aft edge of the foredeck. It looks about 3" to me in the pics. I've found a piece of scrap 1/2" marine ply that can make two of 'em to laminate together for a 1" thick beam. I couldn't tell at all from your pic the thickness of the beam of course.

BTW, great pics Eric, thanks. I sure agree that the design is lovely and lends itself to various interpretations. I lean toward the first option you mention for the cockpit layout: a bench across the back of the cockpit and a swivel chair at each console. Then I decided to put a bait well in the center of the bench. Next I decide not to build one but to buy, and the one I bought is a bit big, but leaves room on each side for a one person bench seat.

Having a hard time being clear Dougster :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:20 pm
by Spokaloo
Daddy, Ninigret was penned in the 60's and there are LOTS of them around if you roll the right rocks over...

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:47 pm
by Daddy
Here we go, I posted more pictures and an explanation of what I am doing on my blog. I found my nesting schedule and the aft cockpit bulkhead is frame F, the next item heading aft is the true transom and finally we come to the last athwartship part of the boat, the false transom (the one you guys put the big honking hole in. These are listed as I mentioned in the nesting sheet. A little less confusion. I guess we all think of the transom as the thing the motor hangs on so that shouldn't be a problem.
Dougster I will measure the width of the hull at the point of where I have the beam you mentioned. When I built that I included the cabin front laminated right on to it. That was a big help when I did the cabin sides as I had frame C and the cabin front to hang the sides on. I guess you could get the correct camber by dry fitting your foredeck, snugging your 1/2 ply up against the edge of it (with correct angles already cut in the ends for a nice fit against the hull sides) and run your pencil along the joint. Easy. I'll come over tomorrow and give you a hand with it. :( Wish I could. If you have any scraps of cheap ply probably a good idea to make a pattern of it first.
E, I knew that the Ninegret had been around a while but didn't realize it went back 50 years! And they are still building them! I had a nice chat with Pat Atkin about the design and its seaworthyness and she said they had been everywhere with it with no probs. 50 years is a pretty good endorsement. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:12 pm
by chicagoross
Love looking at the pics of ninigrette, they do give lots of ideas for fitting out. There are several pics showing deckbeams and cabin beams, and wood cabing tops, very instensive and heavy work compared to Nina; is there some reason Ninigrette is less weight sensitive than Nina?

I also just noticed that while most Ninigrettes are lapstrake, there are definitely several that are straight ply planking - did the atkin plans include both ways?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:43 pm
by Dougster
Well this is progress, we're getting a common vocabulary :lol: I've been referring to frame F incorrectly :oops: So you have a hole in frame F, right, to let the cockpit water drain out under the splashwell into the motorwell? And don't worry about the width of the hull at that rear edge of the foredeck (though it would be an interesting comparison, mine is 62 1/2"). The width I am referring to is the width (depth) beam arching across it. The wider it is the stronger, but the more it makes crawling under there to get to the hatch a pita. My beam will be 62 1/2" long. The width and thickness are what I am not sure of. I am referring to width as the vertical dimension. I lean toward 2" to 3" width and then whatever thickness is necessary. I'll cut it out of ply and laminate them together to get the thickness. I have a quick first effort cut of scrap luan that I'll post a pic of tomorrow. I should have gone with the beam in the first place. Seeing your pics again help me get that; things follow more logically once that beam is in. It's only an hour to cut and laminate it, then an hour the next day to glue it in. This no plans building is sure slow going, but I agree with you, it's really one of the fun parts.

You know I had no idea the Ninigret went back 50 years. 'Course I go back farther so I'm down with that :D

Says going back a ways is OK Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:49 am
by Spokaloo
Ninigret is designed as a lapstrake, but is adaptable for developed plywood or cold molding. As for weight sensitivity, I think she was an overall heavier boat to begin with, but I have found her to be such an effective load carrier that she can tolerate more weight. Difference being it eats up the horsepower quickly, losing efficiency and becoming a much wetter boat with big loads.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:16 pm
by Dougster
That is a comfort, Eric, since I am adding weight with the cabin roof, etc. Still planning on only 30 horses though. Here's a pic of the beam I have been worrying over, cut out of scrap luan. It's 2 3/4" wide and 62 1/2" across. The thickness to be determined by however many pieces of ply I glue up. I have a piece of 1/2" ply and am thinking of two pieces, for a 1" thickness. I'd like to take the width down to 2 1/2 " and glass both sides before glue up. Then tape it in to the foredeck and cabin windshield. Seem reasonable? Here's the pic.
Image

Now here's my perhaps overly complicated solution to a problem. I'll start with a pic.
Image

Can anybody guess what in the world that is about? Well, those little black things on the corners are anodized aluminum fasteners to hold down the baitwell. I can't bear drilling any holes in the sole so thought to set the well on this pad, like this:

Image

I hope it's not too nutty an idea, but let me know if it is! Here's where it's to end up:

Image

I'm planning a single bench seat on either side of the bait well, with the cockpit draining under the benches somehow through transom F (that rear cockpit bulkhead the baitwell backs up against). You can see a two inch hole drill bit laying about where I want it to drain (I'll put one on each side). Anyone see problems here?

That's it for now, SWMBO and I are gonna cook up a feast to celebrate the fourth. Fried catfish, fresh cream peas (that's what we call 'em here, they're a little like black-eyed peas), green beans and sliced tomatoes from the garden. Blackberry cobbler and ice cream for desert. A friend and neighbor's son is in harms way in Afghanistan and we feast. Feels kinda funny, but we'll think of him and raise a glass.

Hopes folks stay safe Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:28 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, take another look at my "beam", it is two layers of 3/8 inch and 2 1/2 inches high. One of the 3/8 inch layers has ends that mimic frames in that it curves down so that you have a lot of bearing surface on the inside of the hull. To this assembly I laminated the cabin front on the aft side of the beam. That gives me a 3/4 inch bearing surface for the aft end of the foredeck. I tilted the whole assembly a bit aft to give the cabin front some rake. I was sitting on the front end of the cabin top this morning and it is like a rock, not sure if the middle could support my weight tho.
Looking at your pics I can see what you mean about the bait well and two seats and agree about hating to drill holes in the sole. I have used the same method to hold my battery and gas tank but only used blocks poxied to the sole rather than a whole piece, but whatever works, saturate all with epoxy and yer good to go.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:47 pm
by chicagoross
Dougster, agree with Daddy on that beam - make the ends curve down just like the deck beam further aft (it doesn't have to be that beefy, but at least should reach 6-8" down from the sheer strake). 2 layers of 3/8 should be plenty after it's all taped in.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:14 pm
by Dougster
That's all good to hear. I will indeed extend the beam down, like you did Daddy (trust me, I have sure looked at your pics :) ), but don't have scrap big enough to do it in one piece. It's interesting that you angled it a bit, which I had not noticed. I'll cut "elbows" to match the beam and glue/glass 'em on. Re the baitwell pad, I originally intended just to use little blocks for the hold downs, but they put the aluminum fasteners too high to screw into the provided hold down nuts in the baitwell. So it had to all be level, sittin' on a pad. I have one coat of epoxy curing on it right now. Tomorrow I'll cut that beam and matching elbows.

Says thanks for the consult Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:05 pm
by Daddy
Glad to help, wish my glass would come soon so I can keep plugging.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:45 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Hi Dougster. Your boat is looking great :) Very nice, clean work.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:37 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Aripeka, support from you guys helps plenty. BTW did a couple of posts get deleted here :doh: Seems like somebody asked me about an anchor rode I ordered and I replied I had ordered it but it hadn't come yet. Oh well. Not much time for boat work today but I did get the beam and its knees all cut out, fit, and the lamination pieces are glued up and curing right now. I feel real good about this beam, dunno what took me so long to click to it. I'll post a pic when I get it in.

Workin' on the pieces Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:52 pm
by TomW
Yea that was Richard(Aripeka) Dougster. :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:40 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, looking at the pics of your baitwell I do not see the 2 x 4 holes. Does that mean they are behind the baitwell? If you build your bench seats enclosed on top and all sides with a hatch in the cockpit side the cockpit water should be able to run around them to the scuppers? Probably does not make sense, too dang hot here to think. I was mixing epoxy with slow hardeneer in the shop this AM and it started to kick while I was still mixing it! I had to spread it out so I could use it. Filled those spaces along the deck and rub rail.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:17 pm
by Dougster
Yeah Daddy, you didn't see 'em cuz I haven't cut 'em yet :oops: I still get nervous with those kind of cuts and just haven't been sure. I'll get there though, once I'm clear on the seats and water flow from the cockpit. You got the clamps off the foredeck yet? Give us a pic when you do. And thanks Tom, I wasn't having a senior moment :lol: . Maybe the moderator cut 'em cuz they referred to the link for the rode I posted previously, but Bateau doesn't sell eight brait rodes. Could have been a glitch or error too. Doesn't matter. The bummer is it's still not here, though it's only been a week.

Still waitin' for the brown truck Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:46 am
by Daddy
OK Dougster, I posted some pics of the trimmed out foredeck. I am thinking of biax tape on the joint between deck and cabin front and then 6 oz. glass on all decks and cabin top. I am starting to like it! :) At some point I will have to put that salvaged hardware up against the buffing wheel to bring it up to the new stuff. So far the only SS hardware on the boat will be the bow eye and transom eyes.
Did my suggestion of how to get water out of your cockpit make any sense? I guess you could use the top of your baitwell as a dining table while you and Mrs. D sit on either side. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:21 pm
by Dougster
"I guess you could use the top of your baitwell as a dining table while you and Mrs. D sit on either side" :lol: Well that would be nice but I don't think there's enough room to leave any space between the seats and the baitwell. Good for coffee and a sit down though. I checked out your new pics and really it looks like a bow hatch would have been a little in the way. The hardware looks cool and everything seems very reasonable. I have already ordered the bow roller though so I'm committed there. I'm hoping I can raise and lower the anchor on the roller from the cabin hatch, and lock the anchor down on the roller when up. I just about finished my little beam today. The knees or "shoulders" are glued on and it's all one piece. All that's left is to glass both sides before I can glue it in place. It's taken several days, what with the glue up and my slow lane ways, but it's gettin' there. Hope your 6 oz glass came.

Movin' maybe a little under hull speed Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:48 pm
by Daddy
Dougster you should easily be able to set and retrieve the anchor from a hatch in the cabin roof using the bow roller system. Probably even easier than setting it the way I plan to do. If you install a chain stopper, http://www.idealwindlass.com/new_page_5.htm
That should make life easier when retrieving the anchor. They come in a variety of styles (and prices :D )
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:58 am
by Dougster
Yeah, that has been my plan, but what keeps bugging me is how much trouble it will be to feed the rode through the hawse pipe as I haul the anchor. It depends on how far I must lean forward to reach the pipe, which must, of course, be on the forward side of frame A. I'll get it sorted out though. My anchor roller came and it seems perfect to me. Once I get the rode I'll fool around with things. My foredeck beam is finished, just needs glass on each side. I want to run a round over router bit over it but have thought I could do that after I lay it flat and glass both sides, first cutting the glass off at the sharp edge as it cures. I'm thinking that is easier than rounding it over first, then glassing it after it's rounded :doh: Well, probably either way works. Errands today and tomorrow's busy, so nothing much doing on Nina till Sunday.

Daddy, I might have known you'd be familiar with the Nimble Nomad. There was a time (before I got into this building thing) when I thought of it as an ideal retirement boat, but now I see it as too heavy to want to tow much and I'm not about to get into any monthly dock fees. Plus who wants a boat you didn't build yourself :lol:

Still building Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:58 am
by Daddy
The hawse pipe is the question for n me too, I think it will work ok but will be a reach. Yes, the Nimble would have been right on in so many ways but as you said.....
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:08 am
by ericsil
Dougster, you are right about the pain of feeding the rode through the hole in the deck; but you can't have everything. I don't have a pipe, just a stainless hole cover I got from West Marine. I forgot which Nina model you are building and whether or not you have a cabin. I can go forward on the P19 and sit on the cabin roof while I mess with the anchor. Even so I sometimes just leave the pile of rope on the deck until it is more convenient to shove it through the deck. I also have a chain stopper, but it is only a safety when traveling, since I need to wrap the chain around the big cleat to keep the anchor tight enough on the roller. Seems like the stopper is always sort of between links. I store the rode in a bag over the V-berth that drains to the bottom of the hull. I am toying with the idea of modifying things a little so that I can just pull in the rode from the inside. I would think this would be even easier on the NIna. If things are really rough and I am single handed, I can reach the anchor cleat by opening the front hatch on the cabin, avoiding that treacherous trip outside. In order to retrieve I would have to pull the rode though the hatch. Needless to say, this is not my first choice, but you sometimes need Plan C. I guess my advice is to make sure you have an option to do everything from a nice secure location because some day you may need to.

Keep it rolling down there. It looks like you are covering every angle.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:30 am
by Dougster
I've been busy with life the past two days but am back on the build thing today. It's good to hear from you Eric, I saw the recent post re your new radar. That sounds very cool and more than a comfort in low visibility. A very big boy toy. I have thought it may be necessary to tie off the anchor and remove the rode, just feeding it into a laundry basket, or whatever from the cabin hatch while you retrieved it. I'm sorry to hear your chain stopper is not effective in putting enough tension on the anchor. Your plan C seems reasonable, and there is always plan D: cut it off and let it go :)

Hopin' you have good weather up there Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:37 am
by Daddy
Dougster, have you got one of these?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERKO-Ro ... 483b32c6ca Of course there are much classier ones.
Amazing how complicated this anchoring thing has become in some ways. On FESTIVUS I have a milk crate with rode and anchor sitting in it. Carry out onto the deck, set and retrieve, easy. Maybe we are overthinking it. I wonder if they make a chain stopper that has some adjustment? Got all of my decks glassed and partly filled. Starting to think about paint!!!!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:13 pm
by gk108
Here's an adjustable tensioner from Lewmar:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... &id=934454

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:22 pm
by TomW
Here's a similar one from Windline. http://www.windline.com/index.php?act=v ... ls&mod=104

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:43 pm
by cape man
Dougster,

Have you thought of going with a power winch?

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... stid=51601

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:22 pm
by Dougster
Good links from folks, thanks all. I haven't bought a deck pipe yet, but will soon. The one you posted Daddy, and many I see say "rope" deck pipe vs "chain". I'll have both, of course, with 300 feet of rope and 15' of quarter inch chain. I can see no reason why that little chain couldn't go down that rope pipe. Capeman, I've looked at those very winches, but thought they may not be up to saltwater standards. Plus it looks like they store the line in the housing instead of feed it down the pipe :doh: Anyway, doesn't matter, my anchor only weighs 16.5 lbs and I don't wanna fuss with winch, power, fuses, things to go wrong, $$, etc. The adjustable chain stops look perfect, thanks Tom and GK. I gotta call the place (SECO) I ordered my anchor rode from, as it's been almost two weeks and nothing. They didn't respond to an e-mail last week either :?

I glassed one side of my little foredeck beam today, and fooled with my baitwell tank pad. Had to fix the hold down tabs, overdrill screw holes and fill with epoxy, which is setting now. Re anchoring, I think you're right Daddy, we may be over thinking it. I'm fixed on the anchor roller mounted on a little Doug fir pulpit, and a chain stop to hold it. A big cleat there too, of course. I'm pretty locked in to a rope pipe as well, cuz I would like to store the rode there in that forward locker. I think I'll stop head scratching this one pretty soon, and move on to scratchin' on something else.

Spends a lotta time pondering Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:43 pm
by Daddy
Here's a good one for you Dougster. I just read a book by Dynamite Payson on building one of Bolger's designs. He says that time spent planning and pondering will save you time in the long run. If that is true, we are going to have an easy time at the end.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:08 pm
by Daddy
here ya go Dougster, the perfect solution to accessing that anchor....
http://www.marine-trader-usa.com/boat/2 ... _MENEMSHA/
Check out that fwd hatch. :lol:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:40 pm
by Dougster
Well, I checked that hatch out.... 8O Lord, it's tough on my eyes but I guess someone loves it. My anchor rode came 30 minutes ago. 300' of half inch rope and 15' of chain, and heavy as heck. Why didn't I go 250' and 10' ? Good grief it must weigh 30 lbs, and then the 16 lb anchor, all up there in the nose. Forget stowing it in a basket and lugging it around. That pile's gotta go in the anchor locker! If you're properly ignorant you come across all kinds of surprizes :lol: Heck, my little bay boat of ten years back used a little 8 or 10 lb. danforth and maybe 100' or less of rope, with 3' of chain. But, I wanted to be able to anchor in the gulf and around the jetties so, well, maybe I can. Still can't believe how heavy it all is though.

This afternoon I finished the foredeck beam, glued it in and taped it. It looks good to me and I'm quite happy with it. It's two half inch archs of ply laminated and glassed on both sides, with knees cut from similar scrap. Fits good.

Image

Image

Tomorrow I'll fair it with quickfair, then two or three coats of primer the day or so after. It seems strong and much better for bending the foredeck and attaching the cabin front. Thanks to you Daddy on this one.

Says maybe not on that hatch Dougster :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:49 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, the hatch was a joke. Like a pair of barn doors on that Whaler. Lots of access though if you can get past the ugly. Maybe you should rethink your shelf in the anchor locker. Looks like it has not been installed. You sure got plenty of security there. The beam looks great. Very nice. You wont be sorry to have that support there especially if you might stand on the foredeck someday.
I have finally glassed all decks and cabin top as well as the motor hatch top. The last did not come out as well as I'd hoped, glass did not drape as I had hoped on the corners. If I had more glass I would have cut on the bias and maybe it would have worked. Just more sanding to make it look OK.
Looking good Dougster.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:09 pm
by Dougster
"Barn doors on a Whaler" :lol: I knew you were joking, but it does give access for sure. You're right, I haven't installed the shelf. You got any thoughts? I wonder if it's a little high there. It's just above the bow eye, though I guess I could but it below the eye. I'll have to make the shelf good and strong. Still can't believe how heavy that rode is. Overkill, I guess.

I haven't even touched the stern and need to start. It's tough for me without the actual motor, though I have the dimensions. Heck I might mock one up real roughly from cardboard or something. Good luck with the sanding on your motorwell. I did a little time with the RO today, sanding the primer off the side panels in the cabin where the beam knees needed to be glued and taped. It took a two discs of 80 grit to do about a square foot! That S3 primer is really tough after a few weeks, which is fine with me.

Doin' a little bit every day Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:54 am
by TomW
My anchor rode came 30 minutes ago. 300' of half inch rope and 15' of chain, and heavy as heck. Why didn't I go 250' and 10' ? Good grief it must weigh 30 lbs, and then the 16 lb anchor, all up there in the nose
:lol: :lol: Poor you :lol: 300' won't even hit the bottom of my lake in places up here. :lol: Just remember Dougster you may need that at some point to keep you safe in a protected anchorage. 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:03 am
by Cracker Larry
:lol: Yeah it's heavy, but if you need it, nothing else will substitute :wink: My boat is smaller than yours and I carry 300' of 3/4 and 250' of 1/2.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:16 am
by Daddy
I put my shelf about where you have yours now. I think you might want to lower it to take your rode or eliminate it altogether. Have you thought about how or if you will close off that area? An inspection hatch maybe? Be nice if it could be ventilated somehow.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:56 am
by Dougster
Daddy---I thought of leaving the shelf off, giving the rode more room to drop, making it easier to feed. It needs drain holes though, significantly above the water line. Conundrum. I'll look at it today. I do think there's room as is, but not much of a drop. Who knew rigging an anchor was such a thing?

Says it's just a thing Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:50 am
by Cracker Larry
I do think there's room as is, but not much of a drop. Who knew rigging an anchor was such a thing?
It's somewhat easier than a fuel tank, don't ya think :lol: I'd go for the maximum drop possible if you're feeding the line through a hawsepipe. I'd also try to ventilate it if possible. Mine has no ventilation, and right now my slimy rode is spread all over the yard, being de-slimed. It's a nasty mess :(

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:30 am
by Daddy
Those drain holes will be above the water line and as CL says, ventilation would be great, maybe some kind of heavy screen across with ply on the bottom third would work. The longer drop would sure help feed the rode in I think.
Of course you will be venting into the cabin so be sure you can vent the cabin too :lol:
Hang in there Dougster!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:54 pm
by Dougster
"It's somewhat easier than a fuel tank, don't ya think " Lord God Larry, how could I have forgotten that! Those tank hassles make this look easy. I take back what I said about it being a thing. It's not a whole thing, just about a fourth of a thing :lol: Quickfair got spread on the beam tape this a.m., then I ran a few chores and next I'll sand that little bit of quickfair.

Then maybe I'll play with the baitwell pad or fool with the anchor thing some more. Daddy, of course you're right, the bottom of that bow locker area is above water line, I don't know what I was thinking. The question is only how close to the waterline do I want those weep holes. If they take water with every swell that would seem to be a drag. 4", 6", 8", how far to go? Gotta ponder a little bit. But having a long drop for the rode is most useful, I think. Oh yeah, and I will ventilate it, into the cabin I guess.

Thanks to Tom and Larry for reminding me a little extra rode is nothing but good insurance. Heck that's why I sprang for 300' anyway.

Now says the anchor is just a quarter thing Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:11 pm
by Cracker Larry
The question is only how close to the waterline do I want those weep holes. If they take water with every swell that would seem to be a drag.
I'd still drain it to the outside, and keep it plugged most of the time in the water. It can weep later on the hill :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:21 pm
by Dougster
I'm glad you posted that Larry, I was thinking just that. Plugs and let it weep on the trailer ("let it weep on the hill" is more poetic :) ). I see my way clear now to ditching that shelf altogether, to give the biggest drop for the rode. BTW, I sanded for an hour this afternoon and of course I still need another round. So I slathered on another ounce of quickfair late in the afternoon. Then I fooled with the bait well pad. Twelve holes to overdrill, fill, and re-drill. Sounds like more that it is though.

Says he'll weep on the hill Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:54 pm
by Daddy
Be careful Dougster, before you know it you'll by installing the foredeck, wont that feel good. :D
Glad you got that rode thing worked out, match your drain holes to one of the standard plugs and you'll be good to go.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:46 pm
by TomW
Dougster, I'm going to put one of these over my anchor locker hole, figure it will keep most water out, except maybe when backing down hard :doh: :lol: http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse. ... ,8179.html

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:08 am
by Lucky_Louis
Here's how I set up mine Dougster, food for thought...

Image

Image

Image

Been that way for 3 seasons now, no issues. The bottom of the anchor locker slopes forward about 10ยฐand sits 8" above the resting waterline.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:26 pm
by TomW
LL exactly what I have planned only I was going to place the hole at the back of the shelf and angle everything towards it. The spray rail would then give some protection to the clam shell. Just the way I think. :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:22 pm
by Dougster
Well that is just plain clever guys! Thanks to you Tom and Lucky L for the pic. Sure it'll help a lot and looks good too. I've seen those clam shell vents online before when researching fuel tank venting, but never would of thought of this use. I think I'll order a pair of 'em, and slant the lower shelf back just a bit, so one on each side. Thanks again. Another thimble of quickfair, dry, two minutes of sanding and the beam is faired in good 'nuff for me. Then prime and move over to the locker. I'm thinking of a very little shelf about 2 or 3" up, with an aft slant. I have the original cut out piece of ply that goes in that front A frame, so I'll just use it to enclose the locker, then maybe put simple bought hatch of some kind in to open and ventilate "on the hill". The last cool thing is if I can figure out some kind of grate to keep the rode an inch or so off the shelf.

Says you guys out there are pretty clever Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:10 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I picked up one of those plastic milk crates and plan to cut the bottom out of it and put it in the bottom of my locker. Should help keep the rode off the bottom and let water drain through, maybe?
All coming together :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:55 pm
by Dougster
I've been picking along and made a little progress. I finished the baitwell pad, with all hold down screws overdrilled/filled/drilled, etc. It all fits well and the brackets are cool, allowing the well to be easily removed. 'Course that means two-legged varmints can "easily" remove it too :| At least they won't have to tear anything up to get to it. Wouldn't want to put 'em to any trouble or anything. Anyway, I'll avoid pics on that as there are some already posted. Most happily for me is I finished the anchor locker shelf and drilled the weep holes. I found the little clam shell vents at West Marine in San Antonio and they will work perfectly to conceal my less than perfectly drilled holes. Big thanks to Tom and Lucky there. Here's pics of that progress.

Image

There's the shelf, you can see I lowered it quite a bit, but still left room for a little place to stick wallets, keys, flashlight, etc., underneath it when in the cabin. That raised the weep holes enough to make me happy. I simulated stuffing the anchor rode down a deck pipe and found that with all 300' of rode, the last 30' or so won't go unless you take a stick and poke the pyramid pile down a bit. This is with dry rope though, and I think it'll go better with wet rope. Plus I won't often have all 300' out. I'll cover the locker from the cabin and put a 9" access hatch in the cover. Here's the shelf glued in and the holes first drilled.

Image

Now here it is glassed in.

Image

Those holes have had one coat of epoxy on the inside, but they'll get a couple more. Next is to enclose it and include the access hatch. Then I can paint the cabin and, praise the lord, glue down the foredeck :roll:

Fussing with little things Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:03 pm
by TomW
Looking good Dougster!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:14 pm
by Daddy
Way to go Dougster :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:53 pm
by Daddy
Found another interesting site with pics of the Ninegret
http://intheboatshed.net/2009/10/19/mor ... ernan-roe/
We have seen other pics of this boat but these are different shots. Interesting head set up, looks like there must be a holding tank somewhere and he obviously has a wet bilge, I like ours better, still a pretty boat.
Daddy
BTW have finished building my hatch but camera wont load pics to computer for some reason

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:48 pm
by cape man
Fussing with little things Dougster
Nothing little about holes that go through the boat. Looking good.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:03 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, 'sup?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:53 pm
by Dougster
Sorry for not posting guys. I've been on vacation in Colorado with the wife. It's been a low key, pleasant week of mountain day hikes and lazy afternoons in a little rented cabin. I'm in Santa Fe today with old friends, and leaving for home in the morning. Been missing Nina plenty and will be back on it Wednesday. Got some threads to catch up on too.

Says his feet hurt from hiking Dougster :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:56 pm
by cape man
Been missing Nina plenty and will be back on it Wednesday.
The BBV is bad when you miss the build while on vacation!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:52 am
by Dougster
Hah! You make quite a point Cape Man. What a great hobby, to do that, huh?

Fixin' for some epoxy mixin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:38 pm
by cape man
What really sucks is after your done building, you're thinking of building another one while using the one you worked so hard on...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:18 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, glad you are back. I am almost ready to paint my topsides. Made a lot of progress but painfully slow. Absolutely too hot here to work at hand sanding too long, a little better with the RO but not much. My camera wont let me post pics onto my computer so I am behind but will try to post soon. Would like your opinion on how my bow looks.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:23 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Hope you had a safe trip back, did you drop bread crumbs for us to follow? We're headed to Santa Fe/Red River on Sunday for a week.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:28 am
by Dougster
No breadcrumbs John, just look for the easy trails that don't gain much altitude. That'd be me :lol: To paraphrase: there are many paths, so it is good to chose one that lets you breath. That high air be thin! I got a 9" round, clear access hatch for the anchor locker, which is today's task. Gotta get that finished so I can finish prime/painting the cabin and get to gluing down that foredeck. Daddy, I look forward to pics of your bow. I can see how good it's going to look with that hand crafted hatch. I'm fortunate to have a little window A/C from Sears in my shop. I put it in 8 years ago and it's still game. Holds temps in the low 80's during these dang dog days. August is tough in South Texas.

Back on the build Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:54 pm
by Dougster
I got the anchor locker enclosed today. Only took about a month :oops: Well, there was the 12 day Colorado trip, in my defense. As proof here's a mountain trail pic.
Image

Image

That second pic is one of a happy Shirley, which after 29 years still makes my day. I saw trout in the lake rising in the first pic. It's the Rio Grande Reservoir from a trail above it leading up a feeder stream.

Here's the hatch enclosing the anchor locker before glue up, with the access hatch by it. The through bolt holes for the access hatch are over drilled, filled, and re-drilled as per the Bateau Bible.
Image

Image

Now here's the glue up, with my typical Rube Goldberg clamp mess. Seems to be holding, but I'm about to go down there and check for drips/runs before happy hour. Yes I intend to raise a glass. No milestone that, but a step to a process (prime and paint) that will lead to a milestones: gluing on the dang foredeck! Here's something I'm not sure of. Does that piece glued up need to be taped in? It's set in like a drop hatch, with 2" ply lips behind it to glue to. I'd rather not bother of course, but if that's the low road I won't go.

Took the high road some in Colorado Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:35 pm
by Daddy
You could always tape it Dougster but I dont think you need to, it is not really structural and probably strong enough, if you are going to be sleepless, tape it. I did not tape mine and am sure it is rugged considering the lack of any stress. I like the idea of the clear inspection plate, wish I had thought of it. I just have a more or less rectangular opening. Nice to see some progress. I have been filling the weave on my glass (decks, cabin roof, motorwell cover etc. and started sanding it smooth. Today I ordered my last gallon (ha ha) of epoxy and some S3 primer. Enjoyed your pictures.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:43 pm
by Larry B
Daddy wrote: Today I ordered my last gallon (ha ha) of epoxy
Daddy
Is this even Possible :doh: Everytime I order my last 3 gallons, it runs out and i have to order my last 3 gallons, I think I'm going to have to order me another LAST 3 gallons. Hope thats the last 3 gallons I need :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:49 pm
by Cracker Larry
Nice pics Doug 8)
Hope thats the last 3 gallons I need :doh:
Heck I've been done with mine and still order 3 gallons a month out of habit :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:59 pm
by gstanfield
And here I've been looking for another project to start on as I still have almost 3 gallons and a roll of biax left over :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:14 am
by Dougster
That's funny Larry, just order 3 gallons every month out of habit. I've living small, ordering little bits here and there. Time to step up. Who wants to wake up some night and realize they have no epoxy? This BBV is an odd thing for sure. BTW, Larry, I haven't posted on your AB "20" thread but have read through it and sure look forward to your build stories and pics. I know you'll make use of that extra 3 feet. And gstan, I bet you can find a way to use that left over epoxy. You got boats to build.

Daddy, how's the camera thing goin'? I'm itching for pics of your bow. Re taping that hatch enclosure, I lean toward not doing it. 'Course if that A frame flexes any the joint may open up. Then it'd be a fun day, laying in the cabin with a foot of headroom and running a sander and taping it. But I'm thinking it won't come to that and if it did, well, like you say Larry, it'd just be a thing.

Gonna sand and fair the outside of that anchor locker today, and maybe get some primer on. I didn't get down to the shop till mid afternoon yesterday and it was 99 degrees in there 8O That little Sears A/C got down to the high 80's in a bit so I was ok, but Lord that gelmagic was getting hot before I was even through stirring it. Forces you to work small and fast.

Fine with the small, not so much on the fast Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:09 pm
by Daddy
Camera still not working but the wife is due home from a trip to Japan tomorrow and she is our electronics magician so all will be well real soon. Temp finally decent here, mid 70s, very bearable.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:51 pm
by Daddy
OK, got some pics for you Dougster. Lots of possible hatch designs and a few of my bow and hatch, all on my blog.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:28 pm
by Dougster
Well I'm just about out of excuses for gluing the foredeck down. Cabin's painted:

Image

That's #9 Cream. It has a good bit of yellow in it, which I like. The stuff sure goes on easy for a non painter like me. No easy way for the cockpit and decks though, as I want something lots tougher. Planning on Sterling. Maybe more Kirby on the hull though. How's your Kirby holding up on Cloudcap Eric?

Here's some shots of the anchor locker, weep hole, and clamshell covers Tom and Lucky Louis clued me in on. Thanks to you guys.
Image
Image
Image

I know the weep holes work, cuz when I put the grey tinted marinepoxy in some ran down out of one. You can see the scaped/sanded run area in the pic :lol:

Glad to get this far Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:41 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, if you aren't careful you're gonna finish that boat, then what!?

The kirby holds up great, when you ding it it's easy to fix, and it hasn't chalked up. If you want a durable paint get the S3 stuff, but if you want the old school look and easy application, go Kirby.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:48 pm
by Daddy
Great look Dougster, glad you are moving on. Paint looks good. I am still using Benny Moore porch paint, not as classy as Kirby. I have pretty much sanded all I am going to and should be laying on the primer but lots of Honey Doos so while the weather is nice I have been working outside. My shop is full of mice so before I quit for the day today I am going to lay on the traps and peanut butter.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:56 pm
by Larry B
Daddy wrote: I am going to lay on the traps and peanut butter.
Daddy
Daddy, got to be a better place to lay and eat peanut butter :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:59 am
by Dougster
[quote="Spokaloo"]Doug, if you aren't careful you're gonna finish that boat, then what!?


You already answered that for me Eric...just build another one! Thanks for commenting on the Kirby. I don't think the S3 would go on as well in this climate as yours. That's why I lean toward Sterling for the decks.

Daddy, I hear you on the mice thing. Check out this pic 8O
Image

Yep, the little buggers chewed on my plans! No harm done though, except to them when I bought some traps and, yeah, peanut butter. Today I decided I couldn't live with some paint runs in a 1 square foot area and sanded it back. Turns out part of it really needs better fairing but I'm not willing to do the whole quickfair/wait/sand/prime/wait/paint thing. So I hit it with the sander down to the primer and laid a quick patch coat of paint there. We'll see how it blends after it dries and I can put the second coat on. It'll look either a little better or a little worse, but at least I did something. I have some more Bateau gelmagic ordered along with those little white foam rollers. I like 'em for the Kirby, just use them and tip with a disposable foam brush.

Letting paint dry for the moment Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:01 pm
by Spokaloo
If you paint in the morning, and you hose down your shop floor so it is wet, you'd be fine.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:48 pm
by chicagoross
Wowm Dougster! You're almost there! :D The paint makes a difference! I like the "yellowish" color, looks "right" for a traditional wood boat - I'll look forward to seeing it in the sunlight!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:19 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, don't forget to tape some paper from the cleats down and across the berths before you glue that deck down, I am sure you thought of it too, but just in case. No fun cleaning up drips and globs of glue from your nice paint job. :help:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:55 am
by Dougster
Daddy, I forgot you had to mess with that. Thanks for the reminder, it would be no fun and mean painting over the scraped drips. The glue up is scheduled for next Friday as today is booked. I would not have remembered that, so double thanks for reminding me. Eric, I hate wetting down the floor, but working with water based S3 sure sounds less scarey and cheaper than Sterling. I wonder if the sterling ice blue is too dark for this sun and heat? Doesn't Joel have it on his FS17 in Florida? For now I lean toward that Kirby yellow cream that's in the cabin for the hull, for the traditional look. It seems like the hull is easy to re-paint every two or three years, while the cockpit and decks are more trouble and take more abuse.

Anyway, here's an odd question but it could figure in how the cockpit is set up, though probably not. What orientation will Nina drift in? Say your in 15 knts of wind, not under power, drift fishing. It seems to me that with the cabin the center of pressure from the wind would point her down wind and the big keel toward the back would encourage the same thing. I'm thinking she'd tend to point pretty directly downwind in a drift. Sound right?

Thanks again for the tip Daddy. And btw, Eric that was an amazing first trip out in your clippercraft. I don't see how it could have been better.

Rolling along in 100 degree Texas Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:22 am
by Cracker Larry
Say your in 15 knts of wind, not under power, drift fishing. It seems to me that with the cabin the center of pressure from the wind would point her down wind and the big keel toward the back would encourage the same thing. I'm thinking she'd tend to point pretty directly downwind in a drift. Sound right?
Probably not directly downwind. She will likely drift at an angle facing about 30-45 degrees downwind. Also remember that current will play a big factor in the drift, and seldom does the wind and current both move in the same direction. I've drift fished in a lot of different boats and never seen one that pointed directly downwind on a drift.
S3 sure sounds less scarey and cheaper than Sterling.
There's a good reason for that. IMO S3 looks like finger paint, compared to Sterling :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:18 pm
by Spokaloo
In gusty winds she's all over the place, spinning and twirling about. In a solid 10-15 kts, she turns to within 20 degrees of downwind as I've built her, as the low back deck and the high bow tend to make a pretty effective wind sock. With the cabin, I think you might have more windage amidships, and she'll run a bit more beam to. If I stand in the back of the boat and fish, she runs at around 45 degrees, but I'm not a small sail.

As I've seen some other S3 painted boats in the San Juans/Seattle/Port Townsend areas, can't say as I agree with the finger paint analogy. Devlin has used it on some boats that looked like plastic under glass when he was done. It can be a brilliant, perfect paint job, as a recent small boat here on the forum showed. Sterling has an amazing finish as well, but I'd say they are pretty comparable when all is said and done correctly. Only difference is the much lower VOC and water dilution of S3 works to my personal sensibilities.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:33 pm
by Cracker Larry
It can be a brilliant, perfect paint job, as a recent small boat here on the forum showed.
Maybe, after much wet sanding and multiple clear coats, then more wet sanding and then waxing and buffing. There is nothing "brilliant" about S3. It's a dull paint. I've used several colors, it was all dull.

With Sterling you can paint it and walk away. There is no comparison. Also no comparison in how it holds up and how it looks 2 years later. I've used both, and seen both side by side on 10 or 20 different boats.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:19 pm
by Spokaloo
I'm not here to argue.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:54 pm
by Cracker Larry
I'm not here to argue with you either, I'm only here to give Dougster good advice.
I'd say they are pretty comparable when all is said and done correctly.
I'd say they are not even close. Have you ever used Sterling? Or even seen it except in pictures? Have you seen 3 boats painted with Sterling sitting next to 10 boats painted in S3? My boat has Sterling outside and S3 inside, I have the displeasure of seeing the differences every day. The S3 is cracking, fading, peeling off, and a pressure washer will blow it off in sheets. The Sterling still looks brand new. Looks like I just waxed it, but it's never been waxed, or buffed, or clear coated with plastic :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:27 pm
by Spokaloo
Seen them side by side, yes, absolutely. Both give amazing results, and are very impressive paints.

I'm sure Doug will find his particular circumstance and select the ideal paint for his needs.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:02 pm
by Hope2float
Larry
Watch those arrows I think there carbon fiber :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:41 pm
by Cracker Larry
Larry
Watch those arrows I think there carbon fiber
A perfect example. I think they're BS arrows, not even worth ducking :lol: There is nothing impressive about S3 paint, unless you are easily impressed. Many other builders will agree with me, who have used both. Usually they first sanded off the S3, then repainted with Sterling. I can provide references :D I've also found that a pressure washer will remove the S3 a LOT easier than sanding it will :wink:

Tell you what Spokaloo, how about posing this question to Joel. He sells both, and like me he's even used both. Ask him if he thinks they produce a comparable finish.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:20 pm
by Hope2float
back to yada yada yada, bull doo doo. Here's to balls nice ones larry. I think you just hit a 40yd mark with one of my old favorates the mathews zmax. On that note I will crack an imitation BBB since I don't have a real one. Sat here all weekend not getting anthing done, but i am really enjoying the bull doo doo on this site. As for the advice I might begin to take yours with much respect. Grasshopper learns from good teachers. I try not to have experiance be my teacher,but fools will have no other.
Dave
PS Larry please don't stop with your posts they are great! Oh yeh I love that southern I'll bust your lip attitude it goes along with the fine hospitality. While I'm thinking of it there ain't nothing like a good dog either.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:37 pm
by Cracker Larry
Don't want to mess up Doug's thread with a lot of yada, yada, BS. Sorry Dougster, you know I try to steer you right. S3 is OK paint I guess, if you don't mind putting on 6 coats, sanding between each, and 3 clear coats, sanding between each, then rubbing compounds, then wax, and buffing compounds to make it shine. Then be real damn careful with the pressure washer 8O Or you could just paint it with a great paint and walk away, and 2 years later it still looks like a new car finish. I don't baby my boats either.
On that note I will crack an imitation BBB since I don't have a real one.
Send me your address and I can fix that, seriously :wink: There are still a few in reserve :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:30 pm
by Spokaloo
Per S3 literature:
Paint cured without crosslinker may be recoated up to two weeks
without sanding. However, a crosslinked fi lm, because it is much
tougher, must be sanded if recoating takes place more than one day
after the previous coat was applied. Some sanding can be avoided, at
the sacrifi ce of some durability, by mixing crosslinker into only the last
coat. The crosslinker reacts with the polyurethane resin in the paint, but
also reacts slowly with water. Crosslinked paint not used within 20-24
hours will lose the added durability. A readdition of crosslinker can be
done, however, without any loss of properties.
Just wanted that to be clear so there was no misinformation on whether S3 requires sanding between coats. Hot coated my boat with all 3 coats in one day, and the only thing flaking is the cheap crappy antifouling I used.

I can't disagree with you in the least that the Sterling is an amazing product, any boat painted in it would look fantastic given the proper application.

I do know, however, that Doug was looking at painting with the same Kirby paint I used, which would definitely fall under your finger paint analogy, as it is the old style oil based paint that leaves behind a gloss-free finish. The S3 can give the same semi-gloss or low gloss appearance with a little more durability.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:56 pm
by Dougster
Ah laddies, himself is enjoying the kerfuffel. What he himself will choose is a right fair wonder sure. It's a fine ta ta ta ra in the making and I'll say it's so. We'll all raise a jar one day, and leave it till then.

Says he's been reading a novel set in Ireland Dougster :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:08 pm
by Daddy
So just a wee bit more of advice for ye laddie. Porch paint it is that I want to discuss with ye. Benny Moore's that is. Two coats over S3 primer and it has held up well on FESTIVUS. Could not wash the summers collection of gunk (about 6 months worth) and took my RO to it with 120 grit. Took it all off and did not touch the paint. Oh I know it doesn't cost much and it goes on roll and tip just fine, and it is easy to touch up and can be tinted any color that Kirby sells. I concede that it doesn't have the same finish as a new car, but to be honest the level of finish on my boat could not stand that kind of scrutiny. It is a 5 yard finish at best. Satin finish and reasonably durable.
Sorry Dougster, just had to put in a plug for the lower priced, reasonably durable spread. :D
Erin go braugh and may a pot of gold be your reward for reading a book about the auld sod.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:27 pm
by cedarock
:lol: That is the way to keep things in perspective Dougster! I have used it on two boats and can tell you this about the s3 paint. If you use it on the inside, you will be soon thinking about what can you do to protect the sole better. I sanded the sole of my hm19 and applied a dock coating on the sole....couldn't stand the stratches. I can tolerate it everywhere else but have continued touch ups! Maybe, I am rough on my boats....who knows! I probably will use something else on the next one. Your boat is looking great. Good luck on your choice and may we raise a jar together one day! :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:17 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Lookin' good over there! :D What are you gonna do when you're done? Build another one? Had a great trip to Santa Fe and Red River.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:03 pm
by Dougster
That was pretty fun with the Irish thing. None of that in Santa Fe or Colorado, but I did hoist the odd jar. How are you doing John? Slow but still steady progress here. Spent 30 minutes after work today coating a couple of pieces of ply with epoxy in preparation to glue 'em in two of the stern compartments tomorrow. They're gonna be where the batteries sit, one on each side of the motor well. I'm back at work, four days a week, and not feeling sorry for myself one bit. I need a few more years before I hang it up and am glad to have the opportunity. Nina understands (she likes her pretty little bits).

Hopes the foredeck gets glued in this weekend Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:45 am
by chicagoross
Yeah, those last little bits take an inordinate amount of time.

Thinkin' a keg of Guiness would give a man the strength to build boats sure, maybe even flip them solo!

Ross

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:24 pm
by Cracker Larry
It will take more than a keg to get all this crap sanded off, re-prepped and re-painted :cry: There goes my fall.

Dougster, I took some pics for you today of my S3 paint. You know me by now, you know I don't give advice on anything I haven't personally experienced and can prove to be a fact, or on any product I haven't personally used. When I give advice, I try to attach pictures and references. I don't get any pleasure out of criticizing a product, especially one that Bateau sells. I'm not bringing this up to start controversy, or to argue with spookyloo, I'm just trying to save you some money, grief and heartache. I really wish someone had done the same with me, so please take this in the spirit I present it 8)

This S3 paint has been on my boat for 18 months in the southern sun. I was meticulous in my prep work and following manufacturer instructions. I used the exact same primer and prep under the S3 as I did the Sterling. The primer dried over a month before I top coated it. The primer under the paint is still perfect. The Sterling still looks like a new car, better than the paint on my Toyota did when new. The S3 paint looks like this...

Image

That crack above looks just like a plywood check, right? It's not, there is 12 oz. biax under it and the primer is still perfect. It's just the paint. There isn't just one crack like this, there are dozens like this.

Image

Look at all the hairline cracks here above. There aren't hundreds of them, there aren't thousands of them, there is 100,000 of them all over the boat just like this. Nice finish huh? Comparable to Sterling? Not!

Image

Image

Got to be 200 cracks in this pic alone :(

Image

Look close at the one below, the big cracks are easy to see, but there are 100 small ones in the same frame that will soon develop into large ones.

Image

Much of the boat is looking like this, you can peel it off with your thumbnail. If you power wash it, it will blow right off. You can see the primer intact under the paint. That's Sterling under the rub rail.

Image

Real nice finish, huh? So instead of starting my AB23 this fall, I'm going to spend months refinishing the OD18. All the hardware has to come off, and the hatches, which means I can't use the boat and won't be able to run charters this fall as planned either. :( And whatinhell am I going to do about the Kiwi Grip :? I'm very discouraged about it and don't look forward to the job at all. If I can save you this grief, then I'll take the grief I know will come from posting these pics.

Richards boat did the exact same thing in the same time frame. His paint was applied by professionals in a controlled environment that you or I can't duplicate, and it all cracked and fell off too. They blamed it on the primer, it wasn't. So use your best judgment when you pick your coatings :wink:

Putting on my body armor now....

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:08 pm
by Spokaloo
I see what you're talking about, and I'll be watching my boat like a hawk for it. I don't fancy the idea of stripping the boat to repaint it.

Thanks for the photos to illustrate the point.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:13 pm
by Cracker Larry
I don't just make this stuff up E :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:13 pm
by chicagoross
Thank you Larry for the side-by-side comparisons of the 2 paints over the same primer. Your advice is always appreciated. Very timely for Dougster, hope everyone else who is close to painting will take a look at this thread. Same primer, same prep, same environment, pretty convincing.

I'm sure you have communicated this directly with the store.

Maybe Dougster should stick with the Kirby - I used Rustoleum Marine )oil-bassed enamel) over Kilz exterior oil primer, with about 1/10th the prrep you did, and two years later mine looks the same as when I painted (when I clean it). Handles the pressure washer fine (although my registration sticker didn't). I'd be heartbroken if I put the effort and money into it that you did and ended with that result.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:31 pm
by cedarock
I hate it for you Larry and I will probably be doing the same thing soon. I had the same thing happening as your 5th picture shows around the edges of the sole on the hm. But even worse was the fact that a cooler moving around or a person walking around with sand on their shoes was scratching off the paint. That was when I sanded and coated the entire sole with the rubberized dock coating. My decking and outside still looks okay but the least little scraping on a piling or such will take off some paint! I have been thinking about the paint situation for a bit now and have been putting it off as long as I can by touching up!

On the other hand, I was happy with the results on the fs12, but I did have to wet sand and buff it to make it shiny. I used the dock coating on the entire inside of that boat right off of the bat. I can remember even commenting on how nice the s3 paint was to apply and you know, it has held up well on it! However, it has spent almost all of it's life sitting in the garage, looking pretty! :wink: My views on that paint has changed drastically over the last three years. I hope my experience does not come across as bashing the product but Dougster, I would use a porch paint from the big box store before I would use s3 paint again. Maybe, the product behaves differently in another region......who knows!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:05 pm
by Cracker Larry
I would use a porch paint from the big box store before I would use s3 paint again.
Me too.
I'm sure you have communicated this directly with the store.
No, this is the first time I've made it public, although I've shared it privately with several people. I didn't do it to slam the product or the store, just to help Doug make the right decision, and to show I wasn't blowing smoke out my butt. It's not Joels fault the paint is crap, he didn't make it. I'm sure he'd offer to make it right, he always does, but the initial cost of the paint is inconsequential compared to the time and labor required to repaint it, and the money lost from fall fishing charters. How can that be made right, sort of like all the losses from the BP leak. I like to do things right, and do them once, and move on.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:49 pm
by Hope2float
Larry
Not to cut the tread, but that is heart breaking. I personally watched your build and seen all the hard work. I know that you are a not a good enough type of guy. The results you were seeking took many do it over until it's right. To be left with that amount of deterioration in that short period of time is a crime. Don't want to crank you or anybody up, but I feel for you.
Dave

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm
by Cracker Larry
Thanks Dave, nothing but a thing, in the overall scheme of things I reckon. I thought I was buying a good paint or I wouldn't have ever used it. I don't buy cheap stuff. Sterling cost about $400 a gallon, but the charter fishing trips I'll miss while fixing this mess will cost me $400 a day. That was AB23 building money :? Not to mention my labor and time, and wasting 6 weeks of work. It's really a savings to save $200 for a gallon of paint, isn't it?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:45 pm
by Dougster
Wow, Larry, this is kind of you to take the trouble to post and document so well. Reminds me of the stainless steel cupholder you sent me, unbidden (resting on its shelf, right by Nina, waiting for the install). I sure am sorry for that paint failure and the trouble now to fix it. I have read other folk's trouble with the S3 and already made up my mind to use Sterling on the sole and decks (plus some KIWI). The hull will be Kirby probably. If not, more Sterling. I'll have a good feel about the Sterling after I do the deck, which will be awhile from now :oops: The hull seems easy to sand/paint over when need be, as it has no hardware or KIWI and can be done without having to climb around the hull. Not so the decks and sole, as your pics so clearly so. Wish you could bake it in the sun some more and power wash it all off. Wish you had a couple dozen helpers to sand a square foot each and knock it out in a weekend. It does look like it's gotta come off though. We all gain from your posts and documentation, there's nothing argumentative about it. This southern sun is something quite different from up north as well we who live in it know, and I guess the S3 doesn't like it. Heck there are days I might agree. I'll spare folks pics of some of my wrinkles, cracks, liver spots, etc. :lol:

My Bateau order was briefly back ordered and won't be here by the weekend. I may still have enough gelmagic to glue down the foredeck anyway, we'll see. I want to use it as it seems like iron when you sand or scrape it and that deck is hell to bend around the camber. In fact I worry a bit about it holding up until I get some tape over the edge. Thing is, I'd rather not hassle with fairing kerf cuts on either side to relieve it. Clamps pull it around the camber ok, but you can't do it by hand. Hope that ply holds. I know the gelmagic will hold but worry some about the ply starting to delaminate before it gets taped. Right now I think it'll be ok and don't plan on kerfs (course I'll dry fit it one more time). Again, thanks Eric and Larry (and everyone else) for sticking with novice me through this build. Sure saves me a lotta grief.

Gettin' by with a little help Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:03 am
by whosmatt
Cracker Larry wrote:So use your best judgment when you pick your coatings .
Wow. A sincere thanks for the heads up. I was about to buy paint and now I'm going to have to reconsider. So you used S3 primer all around, including under the Sterling?

Sorry to jack the thread, but this is important stuff.

Thanks,

Matt

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:20 am
by Cracker Larry
So you used S3 primer all around, including under the Sterling?
Yes Matt, I used S3 primer all around. I've used it on 3 boats with great results. It's a shame about this paint, because I've had excellent results with all other S3 products I've used.

I'm not saying Sterling is the only good paint either, there are probably other paints as good, it's just the best paint I've had personal experience with.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:33 am
by fishingdan
I think what makes S3 paint tough to apply is that it's waterborne mix makes it a different animal and finicky. Best case, the out of the box finish is a satin finish. It can be buffed to a nicer finish, but Sterling, Perfection and etc don't require that. I have found S3 to crack/separate when the applied coats were too thick or there was some underlying contamination. I have had the best results when it is applied in ultra-ultra-thin coats and then buffed to a nice finish in the end.

If you can safely apply the solvent based two-part paints, I think you do get a better and longer lasting finish for less work. I have used Perfection and S3 over S3 primer. I prefer the Perfection finish, but you do need to be careful with the fumes (ie I won't use it in my garage which is under my house). I love S3 primer in all cases. It hasn't let me down on the 5 boats that I have painted.

My $.02.....

Dan

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:09 pm
by Daddy
This has become the paint thread and that is a good thing as Dougster will be doing more painting soon. My S3 primer that I mixed 2 to one instead of 4 to 1 has dried hard as a rock. I have sanded almost all off and discovered that there were a few places where the weave was not filled completely and the S3 primer in those spots will stay and live under the proper primer at 4 to 1. I will topcoat with Benjamin Moore porch paint. Not exotic, no special mixing (we've seen how I did with the primer :cry: ) not high gloss (thank goodness) but durable as heck. Three years old on FESTIVUS and not a crack or blemish in sight.
I am not advocating porch paint by the way, just adding to the general discussion. :roll:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:20 pm
by ericsil
Dougster,
If you are still putting on Sterling at the end of Sept, drop me an E-mail and I'll help you roll and tip a little. It is, by the way, a great paint. I am anxious to catch up on the Nina anyway.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:00 am
by Dougster
Eric, I am probably months away from painting the cockpit/deck, but come on over when you can and check her out. Are you still in Maine? I hope so 'cuz it's still plenty hot here, though we've had a slight break the last few days. Friday/Saturday/Sunday are almost always good days for me, so let me know when you get back to Texas. Painting is a mysterious art to me, so any tips/help there is a fine thing. I'm about to go put some final touch up Kirby enamel in the cabin, then do a last dry fit on the foredeck.

Still slow roasting in Texas Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:33 am
by ericsil
Still have a few more weeks up in Maine. I'll drop you a note when I get back. Save me a warm day or two.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:54 am
by Dougster
Good, I'll see what I can do to save a little sun for you. Fall's coming, it's just slow, like my build. No glued down foredeck yet. I decided to wait for my Bateau order with more Gelmagic as I can't convince myself I have enough on hand. I'll fuss with the stern compartments and such till then. Yesterday I worked on the boat a little over two hours, then turned a 45 minute home chore into four hours of misery. A simple job of cleaning the filter for the rainwater system ended with a tired, over stretched gasket that I can't get to seal. Finally gave up and ordered a new one. I have a well so am on well water now, no problem. Dunno why I struggled with that dang gasket so long. UPS says they'll drop a new one at my gate this Wednesday.

Needs to pick his battles better Dougster :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:54 pm
by Dougster
Well, for better or worse, the foredeck is glued in :D There were opportunities for excuses. I had forgotten I had to work today in the morning. It's a first friday of the month morning gig. Still, I got home at 12:30. Said gasket from above post was there. Another chance for a good excuse. I ate a quick lunch and put the gasket in. Miracles happen, as it fit, the lid of the filter snugged right in, and no leaks. I heard voices though. "Take your time, just get it all prepped today and glue it in when you're fresh in the morning". I piddled along with the prep, but by 3:00 pm, two full hours before happy hour, all was well, including the tape up to catch spills:
Image

With two hours to go, I'd run out of excuses. I went up to the house, drank some ice tea, girdled my loins, and march back to Nina. I secretly thought it would be a simple half hour job, but in truth it was something of a fire drill, and the loin girdling was a good thing. I had wimped out and ordered the gelmagic tubes that fit a caulk gun, and good thing I did. Working alone in hot weather, even though I'd put them in the fridge, it was a bit of a sprint toward the end. I needed those caulk tubes and am glad I spent the $$ on 'em. Ordered 4 and used two, but there's side decks left, so that's good. I did use every clamp I had, including the big clunky ones I bought cheap from Harbor Freight. That's those big, heavy 8" ones in the pic. When they arrived last month I thought, Lord, these things are over kill, but no, they are nice and have lots more torque than my others. It's done now, and will hold till it's glassed or not. That's up to the boat building gods, not me.
Image

Ungurdled, happy houred Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:11 am
by Daddy
Wow, looks great from here Dougster. I have a couple of those one handed clamps like the ones you used on the arc beam that runs athwartships. Trouble with them as soon as you get some epoxy grungle on the shaft they get impossible. I really should throw mine out or use them only around woodworking that does not involve epoxy. Glad to see you got it done, nice milestone.
I glued on my toe rails yesterday, had to scrape off the primer where they went. Wish I had installed them first before primer but they are in now, spot welded with fillets and glue on the bottom side. Spent a couple of hours this AM shaping the ends into a kind of ogee shape, looks pretty good. :D Now I need to finish the fillets and prime.
DAddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:43 pm
by chicagoross
It'll hold! Those big cheap C clamps are the only ones I use now - mainly because every other kind I have ever bought succumbed to epoxy/filler overdose and is no longer with us... but I am jealous, my biggest is a 6"... :oops:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:06 pm
by Cracker Larry
The epoxy doesn't really bond very well to the steel on the clamp arms. A few raps with a hammer knocks it right off. I've been using some Irwin clamps like that for over 5 years. They've been gooed up pretty good in that time :help: but easy to get back in service.

The deck looks great Dougster 8) Another step finished.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:31 pm
by cape man
Larry you beat me to it. Mine were toast until I took a hammer to them and now they work fine. The epoxy bond is deceptive on metal. Dougster the deck looks great. Girdled loins...hmmm. Could of left that image out :lol: :lol:
Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:18 pm
by Cracker Larry
Girdled loins...hmmm. Could of left that image out
Wondering about that myself :doh: Then thought maybe I'd just let it go :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:56 pm
by cape man
Yeah....hesitated on hitting the submit button but had to share... I'll delete it if you want Dougster. :oops: :oops: :roll:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:18 am
by Dougster
I got tickled over the girdled loins thing myself, as I typed it. In fact, as I age I find myself one of the easiest things to laugh at :lol: No worries CapeMan, and thanks for the kind comments guys. Yesterday I picked guitar with my sidekick most of the day, sittin' right next to Nina. She's grown up with music I guess, though often of questionable quality. Anyway there was only enough boat time to fiddle with dry fitting part of the side deck, which continues today. A pleasant task with no girdling needed :D Daddy, I'll be sure and fit any toe rails before I prime, thanks for mentioning that. It's just the thing I'd forget.

I've made putting butt blocks behind the anchor pulpit, chain tensioner, and bow cleats difficult because the little open space I thought would be plenty to reach in at the bow with the blocks is really pretty dang small. There is the round hatch on the bulkhead, but it'll be a pita. Gotta get blocks in there though, so I will. I have left the clamps on to let it cure well. They'll come off this morning, and I bet things hold just fine. That's a good tip on using a hammer to knock epoxy off those metal clamps Larry. Mine are pretty cheap but I've ended up liking them and wouldn't mind having a few of the 6" ones like you have Chicago. I think I bought them on a sale deal at Harbor Freight, I'll look.

Looking forward to fall Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:21 am
by Cracker Larry
I wish I could make music :( I can make boats and barns and houses, but no music comes out :cry:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:48 pm
by chicagoross
Yeah, the hammer thing for sure! Which of you other clamps can you clean with a hammer? :doh: :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:36 pm
by Daddy
I have a couple of those one handers (clamps) and somehow got some poxy into the innards. I want to hammer them alright !!! Should have dunked them in some vinegar but did not know it was there until too late.
Dougster, feel for ya buddy, hard to get into those places after the deck goes on. Take your time and you will get it. Dry fit until it is right, lather it up and brace it in place as best you can.. Try the braces first when it is dry so you dont have to alter them Can you place the one in the anchor locker and use temp screws from above to hold it in place til it sets up?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:43 am
by Dougster
Cracker Larry wrote:I wish I could make music :( I can make boats and barns and houses, but no music comes out :cry:
A few houses sing, more barns, and many boats do for sure. No Excuse surely does. I've no doubt that if I were going out with you at dawn, pulling up on plane at first light, I'd hear sweet music. No doubt at all :wink:

Daddy, I'll get backing blocks in one way or another. The anchor pulpit chunk of wood will extend well past bulkhead A, so no problem anchoring it down with solid blocks there. Then maybe put back blocks on that last little foredeck piece I've yet to install. It's doable. I glued in part of the starboard side deck yesterday; hoping for more tomorrow.

Still on the build Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:31 pm
by Dougster
My internet was down tues. through sat., but I'm up now. Only a little progress, but some. I made holes for the cockpit to drain to the motorwell. Been making little girl sounds about it till today, but then just picked up the hole saw and made these:
Image

Those holes are 2" by 4 1/2". Two of 'em so it's 2" by 9" of drain for the cockpit, into the motor well. They need a bit more sanding but are done. The center hole is for the bait well drain. The cockpit side decks have been dry fit and removed to get an undercoat of epoxy. Here's the port one with the gas cap/vent cut out and screw holes overdrilled/filled.
Image

The cabin side decks are glued in. Here they are.
Image

So far so good. I need to cut the gas fill hose to fit the cap, as I left it a few inches over. Any easy way to cut these? I think I used a knife, shears, hack saw, wire cutters, and some words little girls shouldn't know to cut it off where it is. What's the best tool? Next step is to glue in the last of the side decks. If they need any knees for support I'll add 'em later.

Ignored that little girl and cut the cockpit drains Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:53 pm
by Dougster
Sometimes it's easy. I struggled earlier cutting the fuel hose cleanly (leaving some to spare), and needed a good accurate cut now before I glue the side deck over it and put in the fill cap. More gelmagic was also due in from Bateau, along with some 6 ounze cloth for the top decks. The Bateau order was due tomorrow, and I'm off friday so wanted to be ready, with the hose cut and ready to go. So I google hose cutter and see this: http://www.harborfreight.com/ratchet-ac ... rce=nextag

Well, I recognized that, and knew I had one for cutting PVC. Bought it when I put in a rain water catchment for the shop for Shirley's garden. I wandered down to the shop, rummaged around and there it was. Two or three minutes later, with a little help from a heavy wire cutter at the very end (that wire running through the hose is heavy), the job's done. I walk back up and check the Bateau tracking number to insure delivery was still scheduled for tomorrow. Heck, it said delivered, so I walk the hundred yards down to the gate and there sits the box. Bless the good days.

Says sometimes it's easy Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:21 pm
by cape man
Use a PVC pipe cutter to cut the fuel hose and a pair of wire cutters at the end to clip the internal wire...

Oh wait....you already figured that out :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That picture of the bow area looks fantastic. Sure is coming together now!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:45 pm
by gstanfield
Building hot rods I've always used a cutoff wheel at 22,000RPM for cutting hydralic anf fuel hoses nice and clean. Then you don't have to worry about that wire inside that some of them have. I've been doing that for years now and a few thousand connections without issue. I'm not exagerating when I say a few thousand. I worked for a while there making hydalic hoses for heavy equipment and that's how we cut evey piece, several hundred a day on a busy day at aeroquip.

George

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:49 pm
by Dougster
That is funny CapeMan. The PVC/wire cutters worked fine, but I bet not so slick as your 22000 rpm cutter George. I bet my Dremel would have done it since it's somewhere in that range. Anyway, this weekend I extended the side deck glue down. Sorry for the fuzzy pic, my camera's not doing me right.
Image
I was gonna move right to the cabin sides/combing, but started on the stern deck instead today. Once it's on I can run the router ( dang thing scares me to death 8O ) all round and wrap tape the length of her over the side decks and rub rail. Also spent some time gluing in cleats in the aft compartments and the motorwell. The motorwell is a ponder as I want to fit bait well pickup and two bilge pumps in there. Maybe a transducer too, though a transom 'ducer may be fine, given that Nina's real transom, where it would go, is pretty protected. Needs more pondering, but I will say this whole part of the build is plenty fun.

Movin' along at hull speed Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:16 pm
by gstanfield
Yep, a dremel with a cutoff will work fine too I just use air tools in the shop since it's handy and the front exhaust on my cutoff blows lots of cool air on the piece as I'm cutting it which helps keep things from melting as bad :D

The girl is looking really good so far, I can't wait to see your finished product 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:24 am
by Daddy
Looking good Dougster, glad you are making progress. I haven't done much for the last two weeks, got company coming and lots of honey-doos to catch up on. Are you going to glass the side decks before installing the coamings? I didn't and regretted it because I did not think I could wrap the 6 oz. glass around rubrail, deck and coaming without running into a problem but in the end it conformed to the shapes nicely as long as I maintained the proper radii on the corners. I was sure it wouldn't but no probs. The nice thing about doing it all together is a seamless finish and glass protection to the coamings. There were a couple of places that I had to overlap the glass but that was easy to fair out later.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:58 pm
by Dougster
Well I had planned on glassing the side decks first. I just got some 6 0z woven glass from Bateau, which I assume is the same stuff you used. I've had bad luck with woven tape but maybe 6 oz is easier. I had thought to run a piece of 12 oz biax tape down each side, wrapping around the rub rail, then finishing what was left of the side decks with 6 oz. It sounds like you just used all 6 oz, which sure would simplify the fairing. It would be nice to do it your way and cover it all at once. Right now I'm puzzling over the stern decks and how to cut them. I have only one full piece of 3/8 ply left and several large pieces. Since I'll need at least one more piece for the cabin roof, I may not worry about it and get two if need be. I found some Okoume nearby but forgot to ask the size. I'll want 1/4" for the cabin top. I assume you used 3/8" for the sides and combing? I also have to glue in more cleats for the stern deck. Seems like ripping and shaping cleats is never ending. If I were starting over one of my first things would be to rip about a mile of cleat material and give two sides a coat of epoxy :lol: Hope you get back on your build soon. I'm a weekend builder now, though I did glue in a little 6" piece of cleat tonight, just to keep my hand in.

Hope she floats Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:57 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I used 3/8 for the side decks and three layers of 1/4 inch for the coaminigs mainly because I had some nice long scraps left over from the hull panels. I used 1/4 inch meranti for the cabin sides and 1/4 inch okume for the top. I only used 6 oz. on the side decks, the idea of 12 oz biax would sure make the rubrails bullet proof but maybe overkill. I wish I had made my coamings about one inch taller than I did so that it would be easy to put snaps on the outside surface if you wanted to install some kind of mooring cover. Mine are about four inches with only one inch sitting above the side decks, even another half inch would help. I can't believe how much I was able to get out of the scraps and that is without really following the nesting plan religiously. Cleats! I scavenged every corner of my shop for material and even now that I don't need any more I still get excited when I find something that could be ripped into cleats.(I have been cleaning the shop).
I guess the biax conforms more easily to the curves but I don't remember having any issues with getting 6 oz. around the decks, cut extra wide strips of cloth and trim the excess while the poxy is still green. I really got tired of all the fairing but happy with how it all looks now and worth the effort. That S3 high build primer makes it all look good.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:19 pm
by Dougster
Well that helps me a lot Daddy. I have the same bunch of long 1/4" pieces left over and have been wondering if I could use them, doubled, for the coamings. You tripled them eh? I do see how they firm up the side decks and maybe look better at 3/4" thickness. Anyway, that confirms my leanings so I'll move forward that way. Regarding cleats, I took some of my own advice today. At lunch I stopped in HD and found some 1" by 2" SYP for $2.67. I bought 4 of 'em for 24', and when I got home ripped 'em in half for 48' of cleats. That should hold me for awhile :) Who could have believed she'd need so much.

Believes it now Dougster (BTW is the forum running crazy slow for other folks or just me?)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:48 pm
by Daddy
Running slow for me too. I don't think you'll be sorry if you make the coamings 3/4 inch. It really isn't that much extra work and looks bette, easier on the hands and feet too when you are getting in or out of the boat. Easier to run your router over the top edge with a round over bit, one pass in each direction and Bob's yer uncle.
I don't think I bought any cleat materials at all, just poked around the shop and found left overs from other jobs from years of building houses, kitchens and you name it. Even made Shaker style grandfather clocks for a while. Still doing the honey-dos so no work on Nina, just a short visit now and then to get a tool for another job. She looks lonely and deserted. I will be back on the job after the 5th of October. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:42 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, I wish I could catch up to you by the 5th but it'll never happen. You've been in this game long enough to have skills I just don't have. Still, if the turtle can't catch the hare, he can still get there :lol: Anyway, check these pics out. I cut a mock-up profile of the e-tec 30 and put in the motor well.

Image
Image

The mock-up shows the top of the e-tec at 7" above the deck, so I figure maybe 8" may cover it, which is better than I had thought. It's a puzzle without the motor, but I dunno want to buy it and let it sit for a year, wasting the warrenty while I plod along. I'll have to do more mock-up to see how an 8" box looks.

Movin' along in turtle time Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:56 pm
by Daddy
Mock up is a good idea, my box is 4 inches and that puts it about 3 inches above the motor. I don't blame you for not wanting to have the motor sitting around. I will not buy one until I am further along in fact maybe not until next spring since the boating season is just about over up here. Still lots of boating left but the marinas begin shut down so it will have to be off the trailer. The leaves have just begun to turn and nothing is prettier than seeing all those bright reds and oranges reflected in the water with the mountains in the back with snow on top.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:29 pm
by cape man
Been watching this for a while Dougster (not as long as KS8's boat, but a while... :wink: ) and just now it hit me...Probably a really stupid question.

If you put a cover over the outboard with only a few inches of clearance above, you lose the tilt? Can see how that's no different than running a shaft from an inboard, but is that the case?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:18 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, I'd love to see your part of the country in fall, and someday plan on it. At 4" I'd at least double the height, so it could be a stretch. The stern of your Nina, with all your mods, looks just terrific. My wife didn't get the whole dilemma, said why want a lid on it, "all boats have outboards on the back". I showed her a pic from your blog of your stern and she got it right quick :D

Cape, I'm sure glad you've stayed on board for the build. Not sure I could do this alone. Re the cover, it'd have hinges to ride up when the motor tilts. Wouldn't look too good that way though, so would only tilt it up when needed. Well, the work week is on me tomorrow, so not much doing for a few days. Cool front moved through this afternoon and just a hint of fall is in the air.

Likes that just fine Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:38 pm
by cape man
Re the cover, it'd have hinges to ride up when the motor tilts. Wouldn't look too good that way though, so would only tilt it up when needed.
As I hit the submit key I saw that!! :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:37 pm
by Dougster
Hey guys, I could use a little input here. I'm working on the stern deck. First I put cleats everywhere. Seemed like there's a bout a mile and a half of cleats in the Nina. Anyway, here's the last of the stern ones glued up.
Image

OK then I notice there's a dip in the middle of the stern and decide to level it. I made a dam of two battens with packing tape on 'em so the epoxy wouldn't stick. Here's that pic. That's a mock up of the motor head there in the center.
Image

Well that leveled the center out pretty well, but it turns out the rest still has quite the dip at the midway point. I quickly cut two rough templates for the deck out of cheapo scrap luan, clamped it up, and laid a straight edge on it to show. Here's two pics, far and close.
Image
Image

Now I can try to build up that middle area, but it would mean building up the shear too, which isn't a straight line there, but a nice curve. I am pondering on building it up a bit vs leave it alone. Any thoughts? Hope folks can make sense of the pics.

Always scratchin' his head over something Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:54 pm
by Daddy
Not sure but I would leave the sheer alone espcially if there is a nice fair curve there. Hard to tell what the problem is tho. Is the dip in the motor well area?
Daddy
edit: looked again, it is in the line along the sides of the motor well right? Make that line straight like you were doing, bring the line from the sheer to the edge of the motor well up from 0 at the sheer to whatever it takes to meet the top edge of the motor well as adjusted to make it a straight line. Is any of that clear? An after thought, is that a straight line on the plans? :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:45 am
by Dougster
Daddy, I am with you on leaving the sheer alone. It's a nice fair curve and fooling with that seems not the way to go. I wonder if next time you are in your shop you could lay a straight edge along your stern deck there near the shear? Your set up is different there so I'm not sure what it would tell me. Anyway, I cut my templates differently from the nesting diagram, cutting the back half of the deck to span the deck. That means putting in two panels to make the front half. Running the span the other way (fore/aft), as in the plans nesting diagram may make more since, because the panels will find their own fair curve, dip or no. Hard to explain. I'll ponder it a bit after work today. That line down the motor well you speak if is straight now, BTW, after my epoxy dam thing. I'll figure this out before I go to gooping more epoxy on or cuttin' anything.

You back on your Build yet?

Says thanks for stayin' on board here and helping out Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:56 am
by Daddy
I am back on my build in one sense, family went home so I am no longer a tour guide. Still have some odds and ends to get ready for winter.
The line along the edges of my motor well (running fore and aft) is a straight line. I cropped off the top of the clamping board so it is about a foot lower and does not enter into the equation at all, my side deck (quarterdeck?) is only supported by the sheer and the motorwell sides. Straight line on one edge and curved on the sheer. Probably easier to get a nice fair line by doing the deck in one piece. I am sure you will figger something out. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:45 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for looking Daddy. I just spent an hour down at my shop fooling with it and think I'll pretty much leave it as is for now and let the ply find a fair line. Sadly, you can't cut the deck from one piece of 4" by 8' and a scarph would make a flat spot. But I think I see a way to cut three panels that will work. One little one that spans the motorwell, right behind the motor. That little piece is a rectangle about 3' long by 10" wide. The other two are identical and span, fore and aft, from the stern up to the side decks. That covers the dip area and I think the ply will find it's own fair line easier that way, as you pointed out.

Gonna sleep on it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:00 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
What's up with Nina ? Haven't heard from you in a while.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:37 pm
by Daddy
yeah, what he said.... :D
Daddy
P.S. Been playing around with a mockup of a sport fisher style windsheild for Nina, looks great but I am worried about weight, probably add 50 or 60 pounds. Maybe put 50 pounds of tire weights in the footwell to offset it 8)
D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:05 pm
by Dougster
Well it's funny, but I just uploaded a few pics on photobucket to post, then logged on and found yall's post. I feel bad waiting so long, but work/life has slowed me some. Still, here's some little progress. I mocked up a rough version of the e-tec 30hp and put in in place. Here's the look:
Image
Now here it is with a roughed in mock up cover:
Image
Image
Image
Doesn't seem too bad to me at first blush, but that cover is a little too low. I reality it needs to be up maybe 2 more inches. Still, not too bad. I like the way you pieced in a matching curve on top of Frame E on your Nina Daddy. BTW, you'll see in the center pic the stern deck piece and the pencil marks for the hatches (there'll be two on each side). I'd just as soon cut those hatches out before I glue down the deck. Any fears that'll make it take a weird camber when I fit it? There is just enough of a dang camber in it to deny me a really flat surface for the 13" by 17" tempress hatches I bought. I'll figure that out later. They're gonna leak one way or the other I figure, and I'm putting drains in the storages under them anyway.

Daddy, I reviewed your blog last weekend and gained even more admiration for your build and the look. I showed some of the pics to SWMBO and she sure likes it too. I look forward to seeing your windshield idea, but worry about the weight myself. I am leaning heavily toward putting my batteries (I'll use two, one for the motor and one for pumps/lights/baitwell/etc.) in the aft compartment, slightly behind the motor, to shift weight more aft. You see any issues with that? I did finish flotation foaming those four aft compartments in, then putting in a little sole and taping everything up tight. I'll put 1" drains in the sides (the internal, going toward the motorwell sides). Might make one of the forward ones a bit of a cooler by gluing in some box store blueboard insulation. We'll see. Heh John, come on over some weekend and check things out.

Says I wished I had more to show Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:25 pm
by Daddy
Coming together Dougster. Actually looks pretty good. I think I have about 4 inches of clearance over the top of my motor. I had a visit form my pro boat builder friend and he felt the weight would not be a problem. This of course conflicts with what Jacques and the designer of the Ninegret would say. I even considered building the windsheild as a removable unit. I think it would work that way with maybe four attachment points, one on each aft corner and one each on the forward corners with wingnuts (or similar) and weather stripping along the bottom edge. Still, 50 pounds max.? How bad could it be? All glassed in it would add a lot of strength to the cabin roof. :D
Batteries, I plan on two too. One on each side in the wells on either side of the motor. Gas tanks (two sixes) one on either side of the bench seat. If the weight is off I will move them up under the helm seats. Still lots of pondering :oops:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:34 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, if you slope the sides of the box inward 5-8 degrees, it will significantly diminish the visible height from certain angles, if'n you didn't like how it looked once you raise it a bit.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:14 am
by chicagoross
Cover looks good to me, Dougster!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:58 pm
by TomW
Dougster, I agree with Spok if you have to raise the cover, slant it slightly. It will look slimmer from most locations and not affect the operation of the motor. Also you can use paint to make it look slimmer. Lighter tint on top vs. a darker tint lower of the same color.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:31 am
by Dougster
Thanks for giving her a look over guys. I'd of never thought of the little toe in slant toward the top of the box to make it blend better, but can see that being nice. It's easy to fool with that 1/8" cheap luan to try the mockups, so thanks for another Eric. Your notion on paint to make it blend makes sense too, Tom, thanks. I like the look pretty well, but may try to make the cover removable. Seems like it'd be in the way to service the motor and such, so I'd like to be able to take it off right quick.

Hey Chicago, what's happening in Guam? I'm glad you're still on board my old slow boat to China :lol: I figure you can get most places if you just keep on movin' and don't stop. Anyway, yesterday I had off and the wife and I packed a lunch, got up early and drove two hours to a beautiful state park on the Colorado river (Colorado Bend State Park). One of those perfect crisp, cool, the wind has just laid, bright sun, just after a Norther, Texas fall days. We hadn't been there in 20 years, back when it wasn't a state park but a private campground on the river where we went many years in March to fish the white bass run up the river from Lake Buchanan. Many memories of tent camping, thunderstorms, late cold fronts, etc. All the weather things that go wrong in early spring fishing trips :lol: We did catch some white bass though. Used real light little spinning reels and 4 lb. test, throwing tiny little white and red jigs tipped with live minnows. I'm thinkin' I oughta go up there for a day this March for a reprise. I know about that old "you can't go home again" thing, but you can go visit :wink: So no boat work yesterday. Today I'm gonna cut out a cedar tree that's too dang close to the house and is a bit of a fire hazard, then fool around with Nina some. Daddy, 50 lbs. sure doesn't sound like much, unless we're doin' 50 here, 50 there, and...etc. If it's removable then so much the better. I checked your blog hoping for pics but none yet I see. How 'bout we get big old smoke jumper Eric to get his wife to drive while he stands on top of the console to see how Nina handles. :lol:

Likes that image Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:49 am
by Daddy
I'd like to see that! how about it E? I will try to post pics of the mock up I did of the windshield. Been lazy lately. :oops:
Dady

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:21 pm
by Spokaloo
Sounds like a helluva plan! Oh wait, I don't drink....

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:53 pm
by Daddy
OK Dougster, I posted pics on my blog. :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:40 pm
by chicagoross
figure you can get most places if you just keep on movin' and don't stop.
That's true - I built the last one basically 2 hours a day. Not much each day, but I made sure I didn't miss many days, afraid of losing my very slow "momentum".

Cleaned out the carport, ready to order epoxy, still sitting on a number of plans not quite sure which to start. Nina's still a favorite but my "lack of" access to quality maring ply and weight concerns still a concern.

Let us see if you mock up a modified cover, it looks a lot better already than I thought it would!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:04 pm
by Spokaloo
Ross, the only difference I've seen in a light loaded Nina and a VERY heavily loaded one is she rides smoother heavy, and needs spray rails. Other than that, I wouldn't stress the heavier materials that much.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:20 am
by topwater
Daddy i took a look at your windsheild , I like it :!:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:19 am
by Dougster
Yep, I like the windshield too. Re the spray rails, I wish I had put them in earlier, as now it's one big pita. I'll wait and see how she does without. If I manage a windshield with canvas dodger I guess that'd deal with spray. Daddy, are you planning on canvas and how would fitting a dodger against that curve work? Oh yeah, and Eric, don't let "Sounds like a helluva plan! Oh wait, I don't drink...." get in the way. How 'bout a good Starbuck buzz? Tie a line at the bow, straddle those two consoles, one hand on the rope and it's rodeo time. Espresso though, not a latte thing.

Enjoying a good coffee morning in Texas Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:41 pm
by Spokaloo
I like where your head's at Doug, but crazy as it seems, I don't drink coffee (or smoke for that matter). Maybe I'll just do it on principle! Yeah, that's the ticket!

The spray rail thing is a hassle, no question. Not sure how I'm going to do it myself. However, the spray comes aboard aft in a breeze, and I'm thinking about Texas, not Spokane. We have family down on the Brazos, and it does appear to get windy down there on occasion. If you are running slow, it might not matter as much, so testing may be the best way to figure it out.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:03 pm
by Daddy
Well, don't expect me to do it, I have enough trouble keeping my balance just walking down the street!! :oops: ! E seems like the perfect candidate. I'm with you E, no smokes or drink, quit one and outgrew the other shortly after I turned twelve, Best I had never started, but coffee, on the other hand, I guess I am with Dougster on that. E, I think you should have at least one vice. Mark Twain tells of a friend who got sick and his doc told him to give up booze and smokes and the friend, who had no vices went and died. According to Twain, if he had just one vice to throw overboard he might have pulled through. I figger I gotta have one vice to give up. :D
Getting back to Nina, yes I plan on a canvas bimini and will get it custom made. I will put some ouitward curve on the windshield too since it will add some strength and stiffness to the lightly constructed frame. Should not be a problem to a good canvas man.
As far as the spray rail goes I put mine on with epoxy only, supported top and bottom with a wood flour fillet. I just could not put screws through the hull especially where it would be below the water line. 'Will it hold, I am betting it will giving the way epoxy grips. Adding one later should be doable if you decide you need it.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:53 pm
by Dougster
Wished I'd done the spray rails back when, but now it's wait and see. I have no interest in learning canvas work so plan on a custom deal for that too. Haven't looked for anyone yet though. Back to you Eric and the no coffee. The smokes aren't helpful anyway. I never did them either, except for those funny looking hand made ones way back when. How 'bout we front load you with green tea and tofu? Or not even. I'm guessing the juice God gave you is plenty 'nuff, and we all know God loves a cowboy. 'Course he'll forgive a fool, too, so no problem :lol:

Doesn't figure you for that last one Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:15 am
by JohnC
Y'all have one vice that none of us can give up - BBV! :lol:
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:59 pm
by Dougster
Well I've been following the recent batter discussions in the Anything Else section as I give thought to where my two batteries will go and how to secure them. I lean toward the forward storage sections on either side of the motorwell, one on each side. Here's a pic. You'll see the stern decks dry fit, with hatch cut outs on the port side and hatches dropped in on the other.

Image

You'll see that open compartment on the forward port side, where one of the batteries would go. Hint: it's the one with the obvious patch repairing a wrong cut :oops: :lol: ) Well as I looked at it I realized the fuel line really needs to go there. It's gonna run down the port side, under the side deck, which you can just see in the pic. Line really needs to go through there and turn across to exit near the motor. Running it on the foward side of the compartment toward that big bait well would show and look odd. So it just occurs to me, a compartment with a fuel line and a battery :doh: That doesn't sound good. Any ideas how to isolate that line as it goes through? Or maybe I should try and put that battery in that rear compartment, behind the one I want to use. Can't access it easily there from the cockpit though. Am I right about fuel line and battery in the same compartment being a no go?

BTW, that mockup along side of the baitwell is an idea for bench seats on either side of the baitwell, with maybe the batteries in there. Thing is, after I mocked it up I don't like how it clutters the cockpit.

Here's a close up of the two port side stern compartments I'm talking about:

Image

I want to finalize this so I can put the hold down hooks/straps/whatever down before I glue down the stern decks. Be easier that way.

Fumbling along Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:45 pm
by Spokaloo
Due to size restrictions, Tailgunner's fuel lines run through the battery compartment. Use high quality A-1 alcohol proof, and just be alert to degradation of the hose. I did it that way after looking at almost every production boat on the planet and how they run their fuel lines in proximity to power and battery.

When in Rome.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:49 pm
by AussieBoater
Dougster,
Could you make a fiberglass tube and fix that on the inside of your storage sections and run your fuel line through that???

Somewhat like the scuppers and drains others have made. That way, your fuel line would not be in the same compartment as your battery. I don't know if this is allowed or not.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:25 am
by chicagoross
I'm thinking along the lines of Aussieboater - run a chase tube through the forward of the two compartments (the one that will have thabattery) and run the fuel line through it into the aft compartment, where you can put the filter/seperator.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:57 pm
by Daddy
chicagoross wrote:I'm thinking along the lines of Aussieboater - run a chase tube through the forward of the two compartments (the one that will have thabattery) and run the fuel line through it into the aft compartment, where you can put the filter/seperator.
What he said :D
Don't put the bat in either of the aftmostt wells in case you need to get at them (it).
Not sure about your mockup. I have a bench seat across the back and sometimes I wish it was not there, thinking of access to motor etc. Ina another boat I built I had a wicker love seat and it was pretty cool. probably no good for a fishing boat.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:10 pm
by TomW
Dougster anyway you can seperate them is fine. Easiest maybe a peice of wood at an angle between the top and side with the hoses run thru it. That is also called a chase tube. They don't have to be round. :lol: Square, circle oblong, triangle obtuse they are all chase tube shapes. As long as they are sealed at both ends of the compartment and fumes can not get into them.

Tom

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:31 pm
by Dougster
Glad I asked. You guys make it come clear. My problem was with making a chase to let the line sweep 90 degrees toward the motor. I'd forgot about the fuel separator :oops: That's a perfect idea, Chicago. Run it straight through to the separator in the back compartment. Then a chase tube would be easy. I just read your post Tom, and had thought the same thing: round isn't necessary, but sealed is.

1) Unsealed chase lets fuel vapor through. Plus, since it's in the chase you can't check it. Not good
2) No chase can leak, but, like Eric points out, you can check it.

So no chase or a well made chase. Since a straight chase seems easy, I bet I go that way. Now I gotta find a fuel separator, 'cuz I want it mounted before I glue down the deck.

Thankin' you guys Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:15 pm
by Spokaloo
If through a confined space, don't forget ventilation. Gasoline has a relatively broad explosive range.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:26 pm
by Daddy
Ventilation is a real good idea Dougster. My spaces are not separated like yours so I have only two hatches, one on each side. I will use a plastic vent that is about 4 x 12 for each space and have two more same size to put in each space under the bunks. I wonder if you could vent those back two spaces into the motor well? Or could you put the filter and separator in the motor well, looks like you have a lot of space there??
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:03 pm
by TomW
Yep ventilation is good Dougster. You have to have it for the tank compartment per USCG rules with a plastic tank. There are no rules for the filter and to be quite honest it is so close to the motor and other fuel tank connections I would not be worried about it. Everything else you have to do is fine and you have nothing to worry about.

Do your chases what every shape you want and don't worry about anything elses. Back by the motor there are no requirements, PERIOD. Just think a small motor has the whole fuel tank is back there. So put your fuel filter and hand pump there with out any problems. Just be careful when you drain and change your fuel filter. Allow plenty of room.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:04 pm
by Dougster
Well, I just checked back after looking at fuel filters for awhile. So I need to vent those spaces eh. I have intended to put 1" drain holes into the motor well side in 'em, but that's not really significant venting I guess. They have hatches on top to open, but vent em? Well, into the motor well would be easy but pics of Eric's well underway shows lots of spray. Think that'd throw spray in through the vents? The front ones could vent through the forward bulkhead into the cabin if need be. I guess I could vent the rear ones into the front ones if I don't go to the motor well for fear of too much spray :doh: Do I need to vent only the one's with the fuel line? Not the the starboard side with just a battery? Always something.

Just venting Dougster :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:21 pm
by Spokaloo
I'd run the hose through without a chase, and put in a 3" round stainless vent on the F bulkhead facing the occupants. Lots of airflow, won't get gas smell, and you are safe venting it that way per USCG.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:36 am
by Daddy
Quote "Do I need to vent only the one's with the fuel line? Not the the starboard side with just a battery? Always something."

I would Dougster, any enclosed space on a boat will get pretty rank after time without airflow. :help:
I laid out my vents today and will have 24.5 square inches in each (3.5 x 7). You are right though, always something!!!

Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:51 pm
by Dougster
Vents are easy and make good sense, fuel or no, so I'll go that way. I like your idea about some in the forward bulkhead to catch air underway Eric. I ordered a Racor fuel separator just now to have on hand to dry fit and fool around with. Still pondering chase vs leave it visible. I'm definitely off the rear bench seats either side of the fuel tank. Trouble to do and clutters up the cockpit's access back there for me. I stopped in Walmart today and checked out batteries. Kinda cheesy set up. No retail help, just pull 'em of the shelf like bread and put 'em in the basket. The battery boxes for the 27's were way too long. I had thought to go with them and put the saved money toward a good quality on board charger. Think I'll check Sears next, as they have an outlet store right close.

Tryin' to get it all visualized Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:24 pm
by Dougster
I've been kinda stuck, going round in circles as everything seems to depend on every thing else and requires some kind of decision. Finally I thought, "just DO something", so, I cut the hole for the bait well scoop. Drilling a hole in the hull is a bit nervy for me so, to use a C Larry phrase, I put on my big boy pants (for those who remember, I've used another, more biblical phrase but it created an unpleasant image for some forum members) :lol:

It's a 1" hole, so first I over drilled with a 1.25" bit and filled with thickened epoxy. That little white dot in the center is a mark I made while the resin was still green to help center the following 1" drill bit.
Image

Next I used that 1" spade bit and re drilled, then dry fit things. That bronze scoop's threads are too long and need cutting, but I need to get a new hack saw blade first.

Image

Right now I'm fooling with the console and thought of something. Both consoles have a vent from the fuel tank compartment. You can see it here.
Image

I have intended to put a Blue Seas switch/fuse panel on the front of this console, but is that a problem with the fuel compartment vent there? Even if I vent the compartment?

Meanwhile I bought two size 24 battery boxes and made pads for them. Cabella's has nice AGM batteries for $169 each to fit 'em. I'm moving back to the idea of putting the batteries in the rear compartments and am trying to figure out the wire routing. When you run the big battery wires through bulkheads, are there any bushing type fittings around for the hole? I looked, but no luck. Maybe just sand the hole smooth and figure it won't chafe?

Still movin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:51 pm
by Dog Fish
.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:26 pm
by Dougster
Brian--it's the stern and motor well bulkhead. It's set up pretty much like C Larry's since I learned from his pics. The scoop is about a foot to the starboard side of the rear end of the skeg. I got the pic so close I know it's hard to tell.

Watchin' epoxy cure Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:47 pm
by Dog Fish
.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:49 pm
by Daddy
Good to see you back D. I have been slacking of too on Nina, too many holiday obligations. Today I cut in four vents, 2 for my bench seat and two for the quarter deck hatches, also drilled the 2 9/16 hole for the chain pipe. I can't believe it, I am already seeing things that I wish I could change. Also decided to pass on my windshiled until after the boat is launched and has a few sea trials. If it seems stable enough I may go ahead and add a few more pounds topsides. Wish I could help you out on the gas line bushing thing.... how about some kind of automotive bushing or even the kind that are used on computer tables for wires?? Probably you really don't neeeed them but it would be a nice touch.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:22 pm
by Dougster
I'm like you, I often see things I would do differently now. It tends to make me too cautious in moving forward so I'm trying to push through that and just go with something. Re the battery wires through a bulkhead, I guess I'll just sand the holes good and paint with resin a couple times 'til things are real smooth. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to screw supports in for the fuel line, wire, throttle, steering, etc. that runs under the gunnel. I'm thinking about making up a bunch of 2" by 3" or so tabs from scrap ply, then over drilling and filling 'em with resin and gluing them up under the gunnel to have places to screw into. The cleats are a little small and are just SYP from Home Depot. I haven't dealt with the anchor pulpit thing yet; kinda been putting it off. BTW, it makes sense to me to hold off on the windshield thing 'till you see how she does as is. Heck, I may end up with just a dang Bimini top that folds down and lays on the stern (not my first choice).

Says we'll get there Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:49 pm
by Daddy
One thing I would do differently would be to make the coaming about 2 or 3 inches proud of the side decks so that you could put snaps to hold a mooring cover. Mine are only about 1 and a quarter inches high, 3 inches would be better. I drilled holes through the top of my frames for the controls and wires, might have to add a few plastic cable clamps in between. I feel the same way about the bimini, last choice but maybe the best way to go. I wont know now til spring.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:37 pm
by Dougster
I was hand sanding a little 3/4" in the console for the fuel line to run through on it's way down the port side gunnel to the motor. It was hard to reach but after a bit of fussing seemed "good nuff". However, having just seen the Sam photos on Larry B's thread an hour or so before, I bemusedly asked myself "what would Sam say?". Well I knew right away to keep on sanding. A bit later, when it was nice and smooth, I stood up, climbed out of the boat, and noticed this.

Image

Sam's a hard man, but a fair one :lol:

Here's my latest solution to the battery/fuel line thing. I'm putting the batteries in the rear compartments and routing their leads through the corner of the front compartment via a chase. Here's the holes for the leads.

Image

I sanded those holes yesterday and put on some epoxy, then sanded again today and added more epoxy. I cut the pieces for the chase and coated them with epoxy too.

Still on the build Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:35 pm
by Cracker Larry
Sam and Lila says you done good :D Nuthing but a scratch :roll:

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:28 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, that looks suspiciously like the scar Lord Voldemort put on Harry Potter's forehead. :D Did you smell the odor of brimstone? :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:52 pm
by Dougster
Nah, no brimstone Daddy. Just a quick band aide and funny homage to good old Sam. Maybe we need some T shirts: "What would Sam say?" Some buttons: "Run that by Sam". Maybe some coffee mugs: "Sam says its ok". Might be a little side business for you C Larry 8)

BTW, I'm fussing with a mock up of the cabin sides today. If you get a chance, I'd sure like to know the height of your cabin side from the side deck at the console. The plans call for about 17.5" I think, but I'd like to fudge a bit more. What'd you do? Maybe it's in your blog, not that I think about it. I'll go check. Oh, I just ordered some overstocked Beckson port lights for $40 bucks each. Hope I like 'em when they get here.

Takin' a lunch break Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:18 pm
by Daddy
Mine start at about 17 inches and run down hill from there. I'll go out and measure.
OK, back again, actually 16 all the way down to 10. The sitting headroom is bare minimum near the companionway but drops off as you go forward. My reasoning was that I wanted to be able to have the most reach possible standing in the cabin hatch on the potty lid. SWMBO is just over 5 feet so no probs for her and I like the lower profile. I don't figger on spending a lot of time in there sittin so no probs for me either. The hatch is directly over the potty so plenty of sitting or standing headroom there :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:32 pm
by gstanfield
So if you're sitting on the potty will you have to have your head sticking out of the hatch? :lol: That would be a funny sight right there :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:44 pm
by Daddy
Even funnier while I am standing up waving ... with one hand :D :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:06 pm
by gstanfield
:lol: :lol: :lol: nice visual 8O

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:35 pm
by Dougster
Yeah, it is funny. I remember you having that in mind Daddy :lol: Thanks for the measurements. I'm still foolin' with the mock up, so it'll be a while. I fooled with the chase for one of the battery wires today and finished the pads for the battery trays. Little steps.

Slow motion Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:44 am
by Daddy
What kind of pads for the batteries? Not sure I understand what they are for. Just curious.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:08 pm
by Dougster
The batteries are in a tray each. I didn't want to screw the tray into the sole of the compartment, so made a pair of 1/2" ply pads to screw them into. The pads are the same dimensions of the trays. I overdrilled/resin filled the pads, so I can screw the trays to the pads, then just glue the pads down in the rear compartments. The trays can be removed, but not the pads. I'll wait and glue 'em down when I get the wiring just so. BTW, I notice in your pics you have some supports under the cockpit side decks. I didn't see any in the plans, but it does make sense. How many do you have? I guess I could add two to each side and make 'em into rod racks and storage for a boat hook. I got my Perko battery switch today and it's pretty small and simple. Thinking about putting it in the port stern compartment where I can reach it. Oh, yeah, are you gonna glass the sides inside the cockpit? I know your planning on glassing the decks, as am I. There must be a million details.

Doin' one at a time Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:47 pm
by Daddy
I used the same biax as on the outside of the hull, put it on the sole and ran it right up to the top of the gunnels. The brackets that support the side decks are in about the same location as the frames, seem to work OK. I glassed all of the decks with 6 oz. woven, ran in over the rub rail across the decks, over the coaming and down the inside of the coaming. I was surprised that it laid nice and flat and along all of those contours. I cut long strips so did not have many seams and where I did I sanded pretty aggressivly and then filled the weave, sanded and primed. Came out real good. Still have to finish the inside of the cockpit so there will be more sanding and filling. I think I will need more primer, hope not.
I think I understand about the batteries. Which switch did you get? I still don't have one.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:38 pm
by Dougster
I got a Perko switch, with a 1, 2 all, and off setting. Nothing fancy and seems real simple. You're miles ahead of me with all the decks and glass done. I need to move along a bit. Glassing the sides with more biax will not be tough as I have plenty of scrap. I did buy some 6 oz for the decks.

Keep on keepin' on Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:05 am
by Daddy
The lamination schedule only calls for the biax to come up six inches on the inside but I had a little fender bender with FESTIVUS and the corner of the dock that resulted in a bit of fracture to the inside of the hull while the outside did not show any damage at all. I decided after that to do both sides, after all, that is only 1/4 inch plywood! :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:26 pm
by Dougster
OK, I glassed the cockpit sides the other day. I took the time to weigh and used 20 ozs. of glass and 24 of epoxy. Not 50/50 but pretty good for me. Now I'm fooling with a mock up of the cabin sides. Here's the first very rough look (thank God for $10 luan sheets).
Image

I can't quite figure out for sure how to glue the final side in. In that mock up, the piece is resting on top of the fore deck. Here's the back side.
Image

I could do it this way versus putting a cleat on the underside of the fore deck and letting the cabin side drop down an inch and glue to the clamp. Either way, I know to tape the outside seam and can see it in your pics Daddy. If I don't do the cleat, should I round that edge that's inside the cabin in the second pic and tape it? Hope that's clear :doh:

Playin' with the fun stuff Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:53 am
by chicagoross
Last time I glued the inwhales on first, then the cabin side rested on the deck, but butted up outside the inwhale. If that makes sense... :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:18 am
by Daddy
It could not hurt to round the inside and put a layer of tape there. (Round it over even if you don't tape it, oh hell, tape it too :D ) I am not sure if I did or not. I my have just taped the outside which I believe you must do. My sides rested on the top of the deck and on the shoulder of frame C. When you glass in the front of the cabin to deck joint will add a lot of strength to that edge of the foredeck. It is fun, lots of head scratching but it does eat up a lot of time too. I finally figured out the design of my cockpit bench so that I can remove the center section. I will post some pics soon.
Daddy
PS What thickness of ply will you use for the sides? I used 1/4 inch

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:29 am
by Dougster
OK, I wanted to be sure I was on the right tack. The nesting diagram shows the sides in 3/8" ply, but 1/4" in okoume would sure save some weight. The 6 oz glass planned for it will firm things up a bit more I'd guess. I need one more sheet now for the top, so maybe I'll get two. They may have some in Austin, just an hour away. Today I've started pretty lazy, but I think I'll get around to sanding the new biax I put on the cockpit sides, and maybe even smearing a bit of fairing mix on it, plus fooling with that cabin side mock up a bit. The darn cabin height is giving me agita. I'm just 5'11" but seem to need at least 20.5" sitting height. That means an 18" cabin side height, with a 3" camber would just barely give me room down the middle. 'Course barely is all one needs and whose gonna spend significant time in there anyway, other than naps, head breaks, and the odd sleep over.

In the no wake zone Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:35 am
by Spokaloo
2 ways to do it Doug:

First you could glue in a 1x1 cleat along the bottom edge of your side decks. cut it at the same angle you cut your cabin front, then glue it in place. This gives a big fat clamping, gluing, and supporting surface that controls the panel while it is waiting to be stitched to the front.

Second, you could make a smaller cleat on top of the decks, like I did here on Tailgunner:

Image

Same concept, but on top so it is a smaller cleat. I had to do it this way because I had 1x2 fir below the side decks, and didn't want to try to get a good rolling bevel on it.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:58 pm
by Dougster
Well thanks Eric, I never thought of putting a cleat on top. I'd lose maybe 3/4" side deck but it seems easier than the other way. I wouldn't want to continue that cleat through to the stern for the combing, but I could work out the spacing. I'm not sure I'll even need a cleat though, since I've been able to clamp the little 1/8" luan fairly well with no cleat. I sanded the cockpit sides with the fresh glass today (little nothing 20 minute job), then kept fooling with the mock up (scribe, hand plane, repeat) 'till it's pretty close. Then I worked on some rod racks design with pen and pencil, for under the gunnel. There's about 6' 4" so little 6' rods will do fine. Thanks again for your top cleat method with pic. If I go with a cleat, it'll be that way.

Walkin' on down the road Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:58 pm
by Daddy
You will lean back against that cabin side from time to time and that cleat might be uncomfortable whereas a cleat on the bottom of the side deck will give you additional glue surface without being in the way, but to tell the truth, I would just gird up my loins and do it without either if you can make it work. Still a good idea to round that corner off after all glued and taped on the outside.
Daddy
PS, wouldn't it be fun to get all of the lb22x together some day?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:06 pm
by wej
Hate to hijack but didn't know any other way. Daddy where can I find your build of your CS25? Only finding a few pics.

Once again sorry for the hijack.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:30 am
by Daddy
weJ. You have to go way back in my blog to find pics of my GT23 build but they are there. I did not build a CS25 tho..... :doh:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:57 am
by Dougster
Well Daddy, I may just girdle up and avoid that cleat altogether :lol: Progress will slow during these holidays, though, with company and what not. I do think my Nina's hoping for a pair of bilge pumps for Christmas, and some bow lights. BTW, a gathering of Nina's would be a pack of fun.

Keepin' Nina happy Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:54 pm
by Spokaloo
WEJ, the guy that built the CX25 was DeeDaddy, different fellow, and not a forum follower anymore.

If'n you want to lean your back against a cabin side that leans inward (not an anatomically compatible position, but to each their own), just fill the gap or make the cleat taper to a feather edge. That makes it a smooth transition to sit against.

Honestly in Tailguner (which has essentially the same angle of cabin sides), I've tried to rest against the sides like you say, but it isn't the cleat that makes it uncomfortable, it is the fact that your head has to be sloped over at a really uncomfy angle and your shoulders have to slump forward pretty far.

Cloud Cap allows that seating position, but oddly enough I usually pack a type 3 flotation cushion against the hull side under the side deck and use that as the backrest.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:15 pm
by Daddy
E, you have a good point but in my cabin it feels OK, not comfortable, but bearable which is about all you can hope for in a cuddy. If two people sit on the same side you have no choice but to lean back against the cabin sides. Uncomfortable in the best of conditions. :help: I usually sit with my back against frame C with feet up on the bunk (this happens only when I am dry sailing the boat and trying to imagine why I built a boat with a cuddy after having all of that walk around room in FESTIVUS. :D
Daddy
PS thanks for clearing up that CS question, really had me going.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:07 pm
by wej
Ok sorry, Daddy vs. DeeDaddy thought I was losing my mind!! Thanks.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:32 am
by chicagoross
The nesting diagram shows the sides in 3/8" ply, but 1/4" in okoume would sure save some weight. The 6 oz glass planned for it will firm things up a bit more I'd guess
Dougster, on my HMD the cabin sides were 1/4", roof 1/4", front piece 1/4", and the aft bulkhead 3/8; 2 1x2 beams down the center of the top (alongside the hatch would be smart :D ), all joints taped with woven, both sides. That's all the schedule called for, so 1/4" should be fine with yours. Anticipating sitting on the cabin top, I then covered it with 6 oz woven as you plan. It's plenty strong enough to sit on. You'll also stiffen it up if you run some grabrails along the top, with good planning :D you can through-bolt them to the 1x2 roof beams. The base of a windshield frame, if you glue and tape one on, also acts as a roof stiffener.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:15 am
by Daddy
CR that sounds like good advice and is almost exactly what I did with mine. I still need to do the grab rails and am still agonizing over the windshield. There are some folks here at home watching the build and they are all encouraging me to go ahead with it. As you said, glassing the bottom edge would add a lot of stiffness to the cabin roof. Only thing is I keep remembering that we are not even supposed to have a roof on Nina !! :help: I might do it anyway :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:04 pm
by chicagoross
You gotta do it, it looks right! Templates are already made!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:56 pm
by Daddy
I know, the indecision is killin me, not to mention holding me up too. I did think of maybe making it removable by anchoring it in four places, the two back corners and somewhere in the vicinity of the longitudinal cabin top supports. If it didn't work out it would be easy to remove and I would not have a huge amount of time an money in it. The other advantage would be that it would let me pull the boat out of the shop on the trailer cause it would not clear the door with it on. I figure part of one piece of 3/8 meranti and four panels of 1/4 plexi. A full sheet of 3/8 weighs 37 pounds so were not talkin much weight. Keep after me Ross!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:45 pm
by Dougster
It's been too long since I've posted anywhere, but I've been following other's posts. Being back to work since the holidays and cold weather has slowed me a bit, but mostly I've been stuck on just how to proceed with the cabin sides and combing. Finally I checked the plans again (duh!) and see they call for a cleat underneath the side decks. I had thought of this but had glued the decks up flush with the aft cabin bulkhead (station C?) and would have to relieve them and re-fair their curve. This seemed like trouble so I have been pondering work arounds 'till I realized they were more trouble than just fixing the original goof. So yesterday I grabbed a little hand pull saw, chisel, and plane. Sure enough, all it took was 3 or 4 hours and now I see my way. Here's pics of the relieved area and re-faired side decks:
Image

Image

Once the above fix was done, I glued in the side deck knees in the cockpit:

Image

Then I glued in cleats all around. I ripped a little bevel on them to the gluing side would be vertical.

Image

Image

I was stuck for too, long, just pondering and not realize I was over thinking things. Anyway, if it's not raining next friday, I have time to take my little trailer to Austin for two sheets of Okoume (1/4") for the cabin sides and top. BTW, I think I have figured a rule of thumb for these boat projects: however many feet the boat is long, you need that many miles of cleats :lol:

Glad to move forward again Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:04 pm
by chicagoross
however many feet the boat is long, you need that many miles of cleats
Got that right!

Glad you're past the pondering and back on the building!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:19 pm
by Daddy
chicagoross wrote:
however many feet the boat is long, you need that many miles of cleats
Got that right!

Glad you're past the pondering and back on the building!
Yepper! Dougster, do you have some tumblehome on that vertical bulkhead, the one that you trimmed down? Usually you don't want the sides of your trunk cabin to be straight up and down but sloped in a bit. I think I did mine at one inch per foot of rise.
Daddy
edited Monday morning

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:27 pm
by Dougster
No, Daddy, I don't have any tumble home at this time. Never saw anything about it. It's a dumb question I guess, but what is it for? It's not too late for me to do so, but what about the console right behind it (one foot)? I'd have to relieve that a bit too I guess. Is it a "looks better" thing? The console comes up pretty high and would have to have a similar tumble home to match the vertical bulkhead. BTW, I didn't trim the bulkhead, I trimmed the side deck, relieving it away from the bulkhead.

Step by step Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:33 pm
by chicagoross
Dougster, can you remember how many yards of biax fabric it took to build the hull? Study plans say 31, the kit lists 35; that doesn't seem like enough to run all the hull panels and transom to me. Seems like you'd use that up pretty much just on the outside of the hull...I know that was a while back... :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:31 am
by Daddy
Dougster wrote:No, Daddy, I don't have any tumble home at this time. Never saw anything about it. It's a dumb question I guess, but what is it for? It's not too late for me to do so, but what about the console right behind it (one foot)? I'd have to relieve that a bit too I guess. Is it a "looks better" thing? The console comes up pretty high and would have to have a similar tumble home to match the vertical bulkhead. BTW, I didn't trim the bulkhead, I trimmed the side deck, relieving it away from the bulkhead.

Step by step Dougster
I guess it is a looks better thing so that makes it subjective. Several sets of plans that i have examined all call for tumblehome on the trunk cabin. I guess it softens the lines and so it is in the eye of the beholder pretty much. Take a look at some trunk cabins on google and see what looks good to you. here is an excerpt from one article about building a trunk cabin:
Shape.
A simple box shaped trunk is simplest form to construct.
However, that box will ruin the look of even the most elegant hull.
A well shaped trunk will on the other hand enhance the appearance of any hull shape.
Much of the shaping is needed to counter the optical illusions created by building on a shapely hull and deck.
Cabin sides which are vertical built on a sloping deck will appear to slant outwards.

So the sides need to be built slanting inwards towards the top, just a few degrees is all that is needed to offset this optical illusion. Many boats however are built with a more pronounced tumblehome.

A flat horizontal cabin top will appear to be hogged, and look hump backed.
So a small amount of sheer curve is needed and the top will look much better if it slopes slightly up towards the stern.
And a curved top to the cabin will not only look good but drain water away much more quickly than a flat top.
The sides also need to curve in a horizontal plane to reflect the curve of the hull not only for looks but to allow for usable side decks.
Some of the most elegantly beautiful designs have only very subtitle amounts of sheer, tumblehome and curve.
It does make for extra work but the finished look will be very much worth the effort.

Ross, I have no recollection of how much fabric I used, i know it was more than the plans say because I used biax on the whole inside of my hull and lapped over my skeg too.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:48 pm
by Dougster
Ross, yes I bought more, but am clueless as to how much. I think I might have had just about enough with the called for amount if I had pieced things together, but didn't want to get into that. Daddy, I can now visualize how that would look better, but need to know how to handle the console. Maybe I can post a pic to show the dilemma. The cabin side at the bulkhead on my Nina must extend aft 12" to the forward edge of the cockpit. Should that edge have the same tumblehome? I seem to recall yours curves nicely down to become the combing. Do you just force things back to vertical by the time it becomes the combing? Wish I could make it more clear :doh:

Piece by piece Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:42 pm
by Daddy
Dougster wrote:Ross, yes I bought more, but am clueless as to how much. I think I might have had just about enough with the called for amount if I had pieced things together, but didn't want to get into that. Daddy, I can now visualize how that would look better, but need to know how to handle the console. Maybe I can post a pic to show the dilemma. The cabin side at the bulkhead on my Nina must extend aft 12" to the forward edge of the cockpit. Should that edge have the same tumblehome? I seem to recall yours curves nicely down to become the combing. Do you just force things back to vertical by the time it becomes the combing? Wish I could make it more clear :doh:

Piece by piece Dougster
Not as hard as it sound Dougster. put the same amount of tumblehome on the console and will you use three layers of 1/4 inch for the coaming? If so it will be easy to make it lay the way you want. Keep in mind that the coaming will only be 5 or 6 inches high (two inches above the side decks, the balance below) by 3/4 inches thick and even if it had the same tumblehome as the cabin sides, say 1 inch in 12 it would be hardly noticeable in the coaming. I laid mine up out of 1/4 inch scraps, in your case from the console back. I left a good 2 or three inches of the cabin side sticking aft of the cabin bulkhead and used that to tie my coaming to. As I might have mentioned before I wish I had the coaming stand a good two or two and a half inches proud of the side decks so that I could install snaps for a cockpit cover. Mine is not high enough. Funny, you can ponder the hell out of it and still see how you could have done it better. Next time!!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:03 pm
by Dougster
I'm sold on the tumblehome thing. Like the word too: tumblehome. Just feels good to say, like I know something :lol: Anyway, today was a good day. I hooked up my little trailer, drove to Austin and bought two sheets of 6mm okoume ply. Then when I got home I marked the tumblehome lines and cut 'em with a hand saw.

Image

Image

Looks like that back console vertical needs more relief (second pic). It's cut to the same angle though (a bit less than 1" to the foot). We'll see. Everything on the consoles need cleats (God Almighty!), but that's tomorrow. Thanks for heads up on the tumblehome Daddy.

Got tumblehome of my own Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:17 pm
by Cracker Larry
Laughing too hard to reply :lol: :lol: Looks great Dougster :!:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:15 pm
by chicagoross
Cabin's gonna look good with a little tumblehome - how about the stern? Just an inch or two... :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:35 am
by Dougster
We're on the same page there, Ross. Tumblehome looks just fine from behind :lol: Good to hear from you too, Larry. Your cup holder sits nearby Nina, waiting for its special place on the port console. I've been enjoying your old pics of Key West over on the fishing thread. I sure hope I get there some day.

Gonna cut some more cleats today Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:51 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, when you cut out your cabin sides you can dry fit them and check to see if you have trimmed stuff the way you wanted and make adjustments then if you need too. Be sure to leave a lip to hitch your coamings to. Looking good so far. I have been neglecting Nina, just reckoned that it has been just over two years since I started her. Can't believe that much time has elapsed. I gotta get busy, but 20 below 0 is not the right temp for paint. :| :help: She will go in the water this spring!!!
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:00 am
by Dougster
Will do on the lip for the coamings, Daddy. Yesterday morning was 31 F here and I thought that was cold. What your talking about is just 8O 8O Stuff got in the way yesterday so I made little progress, other than fooling with the cabin panel mockup and a few cleats. More of that today.

Says that's too cold Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:12 am
by Daddy
minus 30 this morning, everything hard as a rock, car seats like sitting on a brick, snot freezes in your nose, cold I tells ya :!: :!:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:17 pm
by Dougster
I posted an hour ago and don't see it now. Maybe I forgot to press submit. Anyway, I'll post again. Daddy, is that temp with wind chill? I've wondered how people evolved in that country before power. It's crazy cold for a Texan. Heck it got up to 63 here today. Even so, you'll splash before me. Here's a pic of the mock up cabin side. I tried leaving an over hang so there would be a small cambered shelf in front of the cabin for wallet and things. The pic shows what I mean. It has a 5" overhang. Maybe 4" is plenty. It would move the forward section forward that much and effect the CG a tiny bit I guess. You got any thoughts?

Image

BTW, are you gonna put windows in the front? I can't find any online for a reasonable price yet.

Warm in Texas Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:38 pm
by chicagoross
Looks nice, Dougster! I like the shelf idea - add a 1 or 2" lip, great for storing all the small stuff that accumulates (especially if you're married) sunscreen, TP, etc. I don't think the extra 4" of ply is going to make a measurable difference in CG.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:50 am
by Daddy
I agree with Ross on the CG question, that is a great idea, wish i had thought of it. The minus 30 was without windchill and thankfully there was no noticeable wind yesterday, the sky was a brilliant blue and we had bright sunshine all day. With the snow cover it was beautiful (if you like that kind of thing). This morning it was just 0 so we are improving. How did folks survive in the old days, well, the house was connected to the barn so there was no need to spend a lot of time outdoors and the cows kept the barn warm and if you were smart enough to fill the woodshed before snow you were golden. Believe it or not, some folks up here love the cold and spend lots of time riding to the top of the mountain on an exposed chair lift and skiing down over and over again. :D :D They even pay good money to do it. :P
Your Nina is coming along nicely Dougster. Have you thought of a name yet?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:33 am
by Daddy
Just remembered that I did not answer your question about the window in the front of the cabin. I have three Wilcox Crittenden bronze porthole, two five inch and one four inch that I planned to use, the fives on the sides and the four in the center of the front. One problem with that is the 1/4 inch cabin sides don't offer much for anchoring unless I add more wood in those areas or thru bolt. They have 1/2 inch spigots so that would be fine. The other problem is the weight. They are heavy and I am already pushing the envelope. I might go with fixed ports, might just use plexi, The hatch and companion way will give plenty of light and ventilation. Probably keep it simple is best. I am going to use louvered doors to the cabin so ventilation should be no problem.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:49 pm
by Dougster
Well, baby steps I guess. I cut the cabin sides out of the (1/4') okoume ply I bought. Wonderfully light stuff. The plans call for 3/8" but I'm adding 6 oz. glass. No pics of that, it's just the same as the mockup. Today I put another mile of cleats in the consoles.
Image

Image

Things are ready to move now, but I'm thinking I'd best finish out the electronics of the consoles before I glue in the sides, let alone the tops. That means I gotta buy controls, gauges, steering cables, etc. So I mean to make a trip to the e-tec dealer I liked and order 'em. That'll lock me into his price,cuz hel'l know I'm hooked, but I won't buy the motor yet. I need the real parts, as it's hard to find 'em online with all the measurements, and having the real thing in hand beats trying to visualize.

I just finished two peridontal surgeries, two weeks apart. Each required three days of liquid diet, then "mush only". Set me back a bit on Nina. This weekend I lived on protein powder, tomato soup, milk shakes, beer, and brown whiskey. I know there's worse things :wink:

Knows that much Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:16 pm
by Daddy
'I need the real parts, as it's hard to find 'em online with all the measurements, and having the real thing in hand beats trying to visualize.'
How true Dougster. I need to do the same thing. Glad to see you are back at it.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:44 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Speaking of beer and brown whiskey, don't forget your cupholders! :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:16 pm
by Dougster
JohnC wrote:Hey Dougster,
Speaking of beer and brown whiskey, don't forget your cupholders! :D
John
No way I forget, or Cracker Larry's gift of one. It sits in easy sight, reminding me of the forum's support and itching to be fit in place. I wish you could get to the August thing in Port O'Connor John. I'll have no boat to float by then, but sure look forward to meeting some of the folks. Give me a holler and drop by to check out the progress when you can.

Looking forward to summer Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:25 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Might be your way this Saturday (19th), will let you know. What's up in Port O'Conner in August ? :doh: I missed something I guess. You gonna do the E-TEC in Kingsland ?
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:16 pm
by Uncle D
JohnC wrote:What's up in Port O'Conner in August ? :doh: I missed something I guess
Look under anything else....
Texas builders (or any one else) July 29,30 & 31

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:55 pm
by Daddy
D, checvk this out. Similar hinges, have the take apart feature and are made of stainless.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CAST-STA ... 1310wt_959

Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:53 pm
by Daddy
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... 9&id=20169
here ya go, same hinges as mine at Defender marine, about $49.00 per pair. Nice thing about these is that there is just enough play in the hinges to take up the slight camber in the aft deck.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:45 pm
by ericsil
Try this site where they are less than $18 per pair. http://www.marinepartdepot.com/new316ststhe.html

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:30 pm
by Dougster
Well, I'm surprised at how long it's been since I've posted anything. Glacial progress for sure. i thought I'd put in the little stuff I did of late. I got caught up in fiddling with the consoles, 'cuz I realized that they'd be harder to fool with after I glue in the cabin sides (and therefor the console sides as well). So, here's the inside of the port console, with the gas tank hose looped and my weird way of anchoring it.

Image

You can see I just cut a couple inches of cleat material, notched one side for a zip tie, and glued it in. Zip tie will go like this:

Image

I also finally got around to drilling the transom drain. I realized I'd been a little scared of it, dunno why. Here is over drilled and filled, then drilled to spec.

Image

Image

The last thing I fooled with is the baitwell pickup. The bottom is drilled, filled, re-drilled as is the method here. I forgot to make backing plate so I made one some time ago (drill/fill/etc.) and glued it down today. There's the pickup, and I just noticed is wants 4 dang screws that will need the same bit of drill/fill. Are stainless steel screws ok with bronze? Seems like I've read so. Also, should I bed the thing in 5200 or 4200?

Image

Oh yeah, and I'm still looking hard at the motor. If I buy before April 15th I get two extra years warrenty. I figure it'll just go up in price so maybe go ahead and commit. It seems like indecision slows me down more than anything.

Looking forward to summer Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:02 pm
by Cracker Larry
Looks great Dougster 8)
Are stainless steel screws ok with bronze?
Yes, they are fine. You can get silicon bronze screws but most people use stainless. Bed it in 5200, you want it to be there forever :wink:

Tell us about where you went in Costa Rica :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:21 pm
by Daddy
Glad you are back at it D :)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:48 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, good to hear from you. What did you decide on you motor height/transom thing? You're getting close to launch I bet. I hope there will be lots of pics. Today I just sanded the inside of the port console (no fun), fiddled with a backing plate for the steering assembly, and sanded/quickfair'd the battery lockers. Tedious, necessary stuff.

Larry, I don't have any pics of Costa Rica yet, as they are on Shirley's camera and the thing is a mystery to me. She took maybe 300 pics of birds though. She's become very big on birding and this was her trip. I suffered along :D We have our 30th anniversary next October, she has a big birthday next month, and I had a week off in March for the first time ever. She wanted to go birding, and I wanted to hear that sound she makes when she's happy. I heard lots of it. I'm no birder but have learned to tag along and have a good time. So there were no boats, we were in the north central part of the country. The low lands are a bit hot (like 80, no big deal), but as you move inland and up (5000' to 6000') it gets cool to the point of blankets at night. Everything grows. Bromeliads growing a hundred feet up. Howler monkeys, sloths, fresh fruit along with rice and black beans for breakfast. We stayed at three different lodges and had guides each morning to take us birding. The guide (cheap, I'd say, at $70 for for the two of us alone) were self taught. They spoke good English and were passionate about what they did. They were amazing woodsmen, and could hear, identify, call, and spot birds as well as point out, name, and explain local custom about native fauna. We saw the howler monkeys, heard 'em at night. One baby monkey was holding on to it's momma, looking down at me and I think asking her, " momma, what are those poor hairless monkeys doing down there crawling around in the dirt?" They sure belonged there more than I did. But the real story is birds, and by the hundreds. Tanagers, Finches, Toucans, Parrots, things I can't pronounce, and one "Red Capped Mannekin" that, quite literally, made the guide weep! The last lodge had a trout farm and trout had leaked into the little river/stream running down the canyon. While Shirley and the guide oogled birds I had my bins (birding for binoculars 8) ) on 6" to 18" rainbows in the river. Never saw anyone fishing. That and very, very friendly people.

Says it's still some big world Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:05 pm
by Cracker Larry
I love Costa Rica, Dougster. My wife and I are planning on retiring there, it's the coolest place we've ever been. The wildlife is absolutely amazing and the entire country is like being in a zoo 8) The people are great, cost of living is low, and the fishing is the best in the world :D Did you do any zip lining in the mountains? That's a hoot! Here goes Mrs. Cracker...

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:20 pm
by gstanfield
That's a really neat picture. It's on my list of places to visit before I die

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:21 pm
by Steven
If you have a West Marine around they stock bronze screws. I just installed the same style pickup. Well, it's screwed into place temporarily anyway. I will be installing my livewell fittings and am waiting for that to do the permanent install of the pickup. That way I'll hopefully use up a small tube of 5200 at one time.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:09 pm
by Dougster
Ok thanks, Steven. There is a WM nearby and I might just pick up 4 bronze screws, why not. I over drilled and filled the holes last night and tried to drill to fit just now. Missed on two, hit the other two good 'nuff. 'Bout right for me. I'll redrill/fill try again on the remaining two. Heck it's easy enough to give it another shot. BTW I've had some luck sealing a tube of 5200 well and keeping it in the fridge. Worked for a few weeks once.

Larry, now I remember you writing once about retiring in Costa Rica. That'd be tough for me, not speaking the language and missing Texas. I sure do plan to go back though. It's like you say, being in a zoo that's the real thing. I don't know much about the fishing there and am interested in finding out. Sails and Marlins I've never tried or been that interested in. Always seemed like kind of a rich man's hobby to me, but I don't know anything about it. Don't much want to kill one of those things and never liked trolling that much. Reds, specs, bottom fishing, that'd be more my speed, but who knows. I'll say one thing, it'd be a heck of a place for garden. You get the feeling if you stand still too long you'll start sprouting stuff yourself :lol: What part of the country have you thought of settling in?

Says Pura Vida Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:31 am
by Cracker Larry
The guide (cheap, I'd say, at $70 for for the two of us alone) were self taught. They spoke good English and were passionate about what they did. They were amazing woodsmen, and could hear, identify, call, and spot birds as well as point out, name, and explain local custom about native fauna.
All of the guides in Costa Rica are required to take a test and be licensed. They are tested on history, politics, geography, flora and fauna and many other topics. They also have to be bi-lingual. Costa Rica considers the guides to be ambassadors of the country and they take it seriously. It doesn't matter if it's a taxi driver, fishing guide or nature guide, they all have to know the same basic information. Every one of them are proud and passionate about their country and eager to show it off 8) And if they get any complaints, they lose their license :wink:
I don't know much about the fishing there and am interested in finding out.
The Pacific coast is noted for the best offshore fishing in the world. Marlin, sails, wahoo, dolphin and tuna are thick right off the coast. All billfish are catch and release only, the guides are very protective of their fish! No killing those 8O Near shore they are famous for Rooster Fish, snapper and grouper. On the Caribbean coast it is entirely different. It's lowland mangrove swamp like you'd find anywhere from Florida south. Here the fishing centers on the flats, redfish, bonefish, tarpon and permit. There is something for everybody :D
What part of the country have you thought of settling in?
We've got to do some more looking around, but probably the central Pacific coast near Playa Jaco. Los Suenos has to be seen to be believed :!:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:24 am
by davidtx
Dougster - there is also a Fastenal on Nakoma that should be on your way into San Antonio. They have every kind of screw imaginable.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:03 am
by Dougster
Never thought of that. Thanks David. BTW, I'm looking forward to the builders meet in POC. I'll have lots of time this summer, but am more busy with work right now. I hope I can find time to check out your build before then. Would have been fun to join John in fooling with the trailer.

Needs to get of the computer and on the build Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:52 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
How about the first LB22 with a wireless laptop?! 8O Save all that running back and forth, I understand epoxy coated laptops last forever! :D SWMBO and I are looking forward to POC as well, we're staying Friday & Saturday night at Clark's.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:29 pm
by Steven
Get a steel screw of the same size and type. Use it to chase the threads before putting in the bronze screws. No risk of breaking off that way.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:51 am
by davidtx
Dougster wrote:Never thought of that. Thanks David. BTW, I'm looking forward to the builders meet in POC. I'll have lots of time this summer, but am more busy with work right now. I hope I can find time to check out your build before then. Would have been fun to join John in fooling with the trailer.

Needs to get of the computer and on the build Dougster
Let me know when you are off for the summer. I drive past your place on the way to San Antonio at least every week or two and would love to stop by and check on Nina. There is still much trailer-foolery to be had at my place.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:19 pm
by Mad Dog
Dougster, I read you post over on David's TX18 build, having problems with the drain tube crimping along the fillet curve. Since you drilled and filled, why not put in a garboard drain? Lime this: http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse. ... ,8258.html
That's how I solved the problem on my rebuild. It's also less trouble to install and pull without climbing onboard. Not easy on a boat with high sides.

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:09 am
by Dougster
Good notion Mad Dog, thanks. I've seen those and not thought of using one for the drain. I'd only have to overdrill/fill/drill those three screw holes to place it on the outside of the transom. Still a pita to unscrew the stopper though, 'cuz the motor's in that well and you gotta crawl under there with the motor in the way. It seems more secure than just sticking my drain plug in the bare hole though. BTW, I'm looking forward to meeting you and everyone else at the POC thing!

Back to fooling with the consoles today Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:49 pm
by Mad Dog
I forgot that your motor well in inset. I have a thought about making it simpler but I need to look up some pieces. I'll get back to you on that.

The POC event is really shaping up. I'm particularly interested in putting faces and voices to go with these post I read all the time.

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:30 pm
by Dougster
Well, I've still been wrestling with the consoles. Why someone with no boat building (heck, no building period) experience picks a boat with two consoles, well that's a question above my pay grade. Anyway, I slog on. Here's the port and starboard consoles to date.
Image

Image

That hole to the right of the wheel is what some call a learning experience. When the throttle clangs up against the wheel on it's way to full reverse, I take it right in stride of course. No teeth gnashing, bucket kicking, or moan chair time required. Move on, move on, lesson learned and all that. God bless this composite technique and all it's possible do overs :lol:

Did it over Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:44 am
by cape man
No teeth gnashing, bucket kicking, or moan chair time required. Move on, move on, lesson learned and all that. God bless this composite technique and all it's possible do overs
One thing I learned really well during my build...

"Epoxy can fix anything!"

And another thing...

"It aint nothing but a thing!"


Really like the consoles...and your attitude. Your getting there now!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:15 pm
by Daddy
Looin good Dougster, you made a hole in two, took me three :help:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:45 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, my throttle and wheel are in the process of being moved as well. My occupants were tired of being hit in the head with the throttle, and I am tired of hunching to get to the wheel...

Lookin good, you should finish her up by 2012!

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:46 pm
by chicagoross
It'll be nice for future builders to have the ergonomics of the consoles worked out :D ! The consoles are kinda narrow and short, the controls need to be just right to make a happy driver (or passengers if you're wacking them on the head :D ). When I look at the plans I think about just putting the controls on the cabin (with a hard roof) bulkhead, opening up a foot of cockpit length, and getting them a bit higher and easier to reach. Not an option if you don't build the cabin model though.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:46 pm
by chicagoross
Dougster, the consoles look really good to me! :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:51 pm
by JohnC
Looks good from here Dougster, you'll be gettin' your feet wet in no time! :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:31 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for staying on board fellas, and by golly Eric, I do have my mind made up on 2012, hoping for a year from now. The console design was a challenge like everything else. For instance, I was just reading last night in the new WB mag about batteries and putting a breaker 7" from the pos post, or 72" if it's "sheathed" (whatever that is). They said the exception is for one line from the pos post to the motor, but I'll have two batteries, so one line from each pos post going to the battery selector switch. I had planned to put that breaker in the starboard console, next to the bus bar, but that's a good 8' from the battery. That's gonna be another day's headache, though, cause this weekend I think I'm gonna glue in the two side panels. I haven't decided yet whether to cut the side port openings in the panels before I glue 'em in or glue the panels in first and cut the openings later. It seems like I've been delaying getting those cabin sides in too long though, so I'm big on mixing up some gelmagic this weekend.

Way past the point of no return Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:56 pm
by Cracker Larry
Dougster, the good news is that full reverse is almost never a good idea with an outboard anyway :help: Just consider it a throttle limiter :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:02 am
by stickystuff
Holy consol batman.OL At least its an easy fix. Just take the plug you cut out with the hole saw, take a scrap strip of wood, cover it with wax paper or packing tape ad tack it on the back side of the hole. fill the edges with gel magic and the hole in the center, let cure and pull strip off the back sand and fill. I love gel magic. Great stuff.Consols look great. Take a rounding over bit and run all the edges with a router. makes for a very neat looking finish. Good job.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:27 pm
by Dougster
I agree on the gelmagic Sticky, and I won't even need scrap to back up the hole to fill since I've made a 3/4" backing plate covering the whole area. meanwhile, today was fun as I made some progress. Mainly I got the cabin sides glued in, the port side yesterday, and the other today.

Image

Image

After that I fooled around with some little stuff. I bedded the baitwell through hull scoop in 5200, screwed it in from the bottom, then fit the top nut on and managed to cross thread it. Made a mess and couldn't get it on at all. In the end I had to take it out, hacksaw another 1/8" off the dang thing and put it back on. It would have been a sticky mess except for this forum. I read someone say (CLarry I think, and thanks for the tip) that alcohol and a rag will clean up fresh 5200. It does, too, slick as a whistle. After that I got out my Dremel tool (someone else's suggestion) and fussed with the fit of the draintube. It's not quite flush but getting there. Here's a before and after pic with it stuck in reverse to see how it'll fit once swaged in. Pretty close, but don't I need to fool with it a bit more?

Image

Image

All in all it was a fun day on the build, with a happy hour toast coming to the cabin sides.

Says cheers Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:36 pm
by cape man
WD 40 will make easy work of fresh 5200 as well. Glad you got it figured out. The cabin sides on is a nice big step.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:18 am
by Daddy
Nice work Dougster, good to see some more progress, have you thought of a name yet?
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:03 pm
by Dougster
No name yet Daddy, though SWMBO favors "Happy Ours", which is not original, but maybe. I just cut a little 4" camber cabin beam from scrap luan to see how it looks (spanning frame C). I tried 3" yesterday and think I like the 4" better. I also fiddled more with the drain tube and got it pretty flush, hopefully ready for the swaging tool. Otherwise quite here. The wife's got a birthday weekend coming up next but I'll still have time to fiddle more. Re the whine vs wine thing, well, we all go there.

Still facing to windward Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:54 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, good work, can't wait to see your cabin come together, the name thing is interesting, maybe why I am taking so long on my build, now that I have a name it should pick up. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:29 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, thought of you the other day, went to the dump and there was a pile of 3/4 inch clear pine boards, mostly one by six and about 6 to 8 feet long, took them home and thought what wonderful use I could have made of these for cleats... too bad you are so far away.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:32 pm
by Cracker Larry
It amazing what people will throw away. Mrs.Cracker insists on going to the dump with me, to keep me from bring home more stuff than I take :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:10 pm
by Daddy
My wife is as bad as I am so it works pretty good. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:40 pm
by Dougster
Nothing wrong with dump diving, and I'll sure never have too much cleat material. Miss Nina got a backing plate for her steering column today, with the boo boo hole filled as a bonus.
Image

Image


The dremel seemed to clean up the hole for the drain tube, which looks pretty good to me now. If you read this David, are you still planning on borrowing the swagging tool from CL? If so we can coordinate and I'll use it too.
Image

Here's a quick template of the the cabin front, and then here it is in place. I can't get a feel how it looks so next weekend I'll do another template of the top, then see.
Image

Image


We had a front roll in two hours ago, so it's a nice 66 degrees here. The thing came in while I was fitting the cabin front, and was a pleasant surprise. The next ponder is what to do about front windshield windows.

Gotten used to pondering Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:08 pm
by wegcagle
Lookin good Dougster. You gotta love those little Dremils. They can make short work of a lot of tough little nooks and crannies

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:00 pm
by chicagoross
I like the looks of the cabin! Looking good, Dougster!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:08 pm
by davidtx
chicagoross wrote:I like the looks of the cabin! Looking good, Dougster!
What CR said!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:46 pm
by Daddy
Nice work Dougster, yer catchin up :D :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 9:31 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for the support guys. Naw, Daddy, your way up front of me, but I can still see ya :lol: Not much doin' today with Nina (had to work), but I did fool around with checking the cabin for square. It's a half inch off that's fixed in a jiffy with a little temporary cord to pull one front corner in. I hope to cut the front this weekend and get it glued in. I also ordered some baitwell hose today, 3/4" for the fill and bilge pumps and a piece of 1 1/2" for the overflow.

Still pullin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 11:44 pm
by whosmatt
wegcagle wrote:Lookin good Dougster. You gotta love those little Dremils. They can make short work of a lot of tough little nooks and crannies

Will
Gotta agree on that one. First time chiming in on this thread, but I gotta admit I once spent an entire night when I could have been working on my own boat reading this one from the start. Nice job, and I bet the servers that run this forum are going to breathe a sigh of relief when this build is over :P

Nice work, and good reading.

-Matt

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:14 am
by Dougster
Matt, I just noticed your post. Thanks for the comment and let me say the sound of those servers sighing won't match mine! I am now off work for the summer, and true to form little projects have gotten in the way but here's where I am. I got the switch/fuse panel and wheel cut outs done in the starboard console and started on the roof. The roof has been a challenge, trying to figure out the cambers for the front and rear. If the roof is to be level, the cambers must differ (because the cabin is not a rectangle and narrows toward the front). It's too hard to put in words well, at least for me, but different fore/aft cambers, or radius of curves yields a conical projection instead of a cylindrical one, which I'd think is an easier bend for ply. A rake forward can move things more toward a cylinder curve on the roof. I settled on a bit of rake. Unfortunately, my on top is just a bit too big for one sheet of ply and I need to drive an hour to Austin for another. As has been my slow, tedious way, I did a mockup with the HD cheapo Luan. Here's a pic, of the two halves of the top in the Luan.

Image

I put these together with a fiberglass splice and laid it in, along with an aft mockup Luan beam. Here's some pics, sorry for the poor quality. First are with out the roof, showing the front cabin panel.

Image

Image

Image

Those paper windows shapes are 11" high, and don't honor Jacques sacred 3" border. I have since tried 10" windows and get a scant 2.5", so may go to 9". Otherwise I think things seem ok. I need to finalize the window size and order them, as I've decided on spending the $$ on good opening windows there for ventilation. I want to cut the window openings and dry fit them (drill/fill/redrill) before I glue it in, so I gotta move on getting the order in. There's millions of things to do 'till, then, so it's no hold up. I have made up my mind to get her splashed sometime next summer so there it is.

Still on his feet Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:33 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I am curious as to how you plan to finish bulkhead C or is that it? Just wondering if you plan to close off the cuddy or leave it open.Will you put grab rails on the top? WB has a great article on building them in a recent issue. They are a little fancier than the ones that I make out of a piece of 2x6 lumber and a 2 1/2 inch hole saw and a router with a 3/4 roundover bit. I think you can find the plans on the net. Any whoo good to see you back at it. I am just about ready to paint BUNKY's topsides.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:37 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, I will close in bulkhead C above the consoles, but don't plan on putting a door to the cabin on yet, though that is a possibility. I do intend to put grab rails on top of the cabin, but will try to buy them. I read that WB article and thought, well, that'd probably take me a month, so, ...probably buy some :lol: Nina says she's getting sick of the shop and wants to splash. I've promised her by next summer.

Day by day Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:50 pm
by Dougster
I'm working on the anchor pulpit at the moment, waiting for some quickfair on the aft cabin beam to dry. Not planning ahead makes it difficult to get really big backing plates in for the pulpit, but the ones shown in this pic work. They are 6" wide by 18" long. For now they are two 3/8" pieces, to be laminated together to make 3/4". Do folks think that's a little thin? The deck is 3/8", with a little camber and eventually 6 oz glass. Happily, the pulpit does straddle frame A so I'm guessing that should add some strength. There'll be another good backing plate, not shown, under the last 6" of the pulpit.

Since I got back from Maine (just a beautiful place in summer, but I think the winters would kill me) I've just about finished the aft cabin beam. It's three laminated pieces of 3/8" meranti with biax on either side. Two days ago I summoned up the courage to take the router to it and butchered it quite well :oops: So yesterday and today was cosmetic repair of that mess (goop it on, let it dry, hand sand, repeat). It's about done and when it is I'm gonna prime it, glue it in, in, and shake my head. That dang router always puts fear in me :lol:

One step back but two forward Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:39 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, where is the pic you referred to? Glad to see you are back at it, I am going to Maine at the end of next week to pick up a whole load of WB magazines from a fellow who is settling an estate. A bit pricy but will fill out my collection and I will try to sell my duplicates and give someone else a start. And of course there are the lobstah to consider...
Daddy
Hey D2, if you are following this thread, I will be in Kittery on Friday and Saturday

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:05 pm
by Dougster
I couldn't post the pic 'cuz it won't upload to photobucket. I press upload, it goes to the upload screen, but the screen is dead. The button that says upload from my computer is not responsive and there is no directory list to select the desired pic from :doh:
I'll give it a day and try tomorrow. Meanwhile, how does 3/4" thickness for the backing plates sound? BTW, I just successfully used that dang router on the aft cabin beam :)

Tryin' get used to that thing Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:52 am
by Dougster
OK, I got photobucket working for me again. Here's the pic:
Image

You can see the backing plates laid on either side of the anchor pulpit. They'll go underneath the pulpit and deck of course. Right now they are 3/4" thick and I'm curious if folks think that's enough or I should go more. The deck itself is 3/8".

Postinc pics again Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:16 pm
by chicagoross
Glad there's progress! 3/4" should be plenty!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:28 am
by Dougster
Seems ok to me too Chicago. I drilled the holes in the pulpit yesterday and continued fitting the aft cabin beam. I'm due another last half gallon of marinepoxy tomorrow to finish up some things. One hold up is the front cabin windows. I want two that hinge open and can't find any yet that will work. May just have to go fixed.

Tryin' to get something done every day Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:18 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I think if you open the fwd hatch you will get plenty of air in that cabin. Maybe? I cant remember what that hatch looks like, does it have an adjuster? I imagine that at a 45 deg. angle it would make a pretty good air scoop
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:18 am
by Dougster
Yeah, a forward hatch would vent things, but I haven't got one yet. I do check them out on ebay periodically and may well just buy one and go with fixed front ports.

Still on it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:00 pm
by davidtx
Dougster, JohnC: did you guys get the email I sent you?
-david

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:46 pm
by JohnC
Just checked, no email yet David.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:51 pm
by davidtx
JohnC wrote:Just checked, no email yet David.
John
I sent it last week via this forum. Please confirm that the correct email is configured for your profile and I will resend.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:08 pm
by Dougster
I'm about to finish the last little bits of the deck. With the forward backing blocks for the anchor pulpit finally in (a pita 'cuz of poor foresight, so tough access), I could finally glue in the last little bow piece.

Image

Then I cut the last aft deck piece. Like the bow piece, the meranti doesn't like the bend, so I kerfed 'em. Here it is laying in place without clamps.

Image

When I clamped it in, it looked bad 'cuz the forward side had no support and drooped, so I made this little curved beam support and glued it in today. Tomorrow I'll glue in the piece of deck and be glad.

Image

All these little things make it seem like I'm treading water, but know I'm moving forward. I also ordered a Jim Black opaque (to keep out the worst of the hot sun) escape hatch for the roof, and ordered little 12" by 6" windows for the forward cabin from Wyenne.inc. Unfortunately, there gonna take 4 weeks, but I got stuff to do :)

Lookin' forward to the Texas meet Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:36 pm
by Daddy
Nice jDougster, glad you are ;making progress, I had a Jim Black hatch on an earlier build, seemed pretty decent. I have been getting closer and closer on BUNKY. Just got FESTIVUS in the water today, gonna be a short season. :cry:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:10 pm
by Dougster
The Texas meet got me cranked up and I've working in the heat some. The little sears AC won't cut it in my shop in this heat, so I open the doors and let our nice Gulf prevailing wind do what they can. Then I do what I can. I have finished all the decking, covered it with 6 oz glass, and pretty much got that all faired. The cabin front is ready to glue in as soon as my two windows arrive (due in 10 days). Today I mocked up the combing. I did two versions. The first one looked a bit big to me so I did another one. Here's the comparison. Big one first.
Image

Now here's the smaller one:
Image

I'm likin' the smaller one better; feedback sure is welcome.

Says sanding in summer is hard on old Dougster :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:48 pm
by davidtx
Dougster wrote:
I'm likin' the smaller one better; feedback sure is welcome.
+1 8)
[/quote]
Dougster wrote: Says sanding in summer is hard on old Dougster
It beats running a chainsaw, hauling and chipping brush out in the sun :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:19 pm
by wegcagle
Lookin good from here Dougster. Make sure you keep hydrated in this weather. Personally I like the smaller combing myself. It just seems to compliment her lines 8)

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:01 pm
by Mad Dog
Cooler weather is on the way Dougster. 'bout three months a way! :P

Liking the smaller combing as well.

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:28 pm
by Daddy
Smaller one, just make sure you leave enough for snaps if you want to add a cover or something like a camper tent. I made mine only one inch or so high and I regret it. Yours looks about right, I would not go less than 2". Lookin good Dougster.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:48 pm
by chicagoross
Looking good, Dougster! Another vote for the smaller combing!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:27 pm
by Dougster
It's looking pretty unanimous, especially since SWMBO weighed in the same way. I'll start cutting 'em out from the good stuff tomorrow. I have some 1/4" Ocoume scrap ply, enough for three laminated together, port and starboard, for 3/4". After I posted I fooled with the anchor pulpit board some more, drilling and refilling holes for the anchor roller. No problem with the heat thing today. I did three hours in the a.m. and two more this afternoon. This sure is a fun part of the build. Next is to box in the bait well (decided I dunno like the look of it just sittin' there) and include two small bench seats on either side of it. Also I have to figure out seats at the console. I'm thinkin' two pedestal chairs mounted in a small box support with some minimal storage in it that can be epoxied/glassed to the sole.

Workin' on Nina Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:33 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Just my $.02:

1) I like the smaller combing (keep in mind what Daddy said)
2) sanding in the summer would be hard on a young Dougster (or any of us) 8O
3) most important: this ain't no democracy, if SWMBO says... :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:19 pm
by steve292
JohnC wrote:
most important: this ain't no democracy, if SWMBO says... :D
John
You know he's right.
My 02, I like the smaller one too. :D
Steve

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:07 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, after you get it all laminated up run your power plane over the top and bottom edge to even it up and then put your half inch router bit in and run that over the top edges. I was amazed that after putting a fillet along the outside of the coaming that I could lay 6 oz glass down over the rubrail, across the deck and up and over the coaming down into the inside all in one pass. It laid perfectly around and into all nooks and crannies, Fun
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:10 pm
by Dougster
Daddy, I'd planned on the router thing, but hadn't thought of using the power plane to quickly even things up. I was going to laminate the pieces before cutting to the line, which I still might do, we'll see. I got less done than intended today. Made a trip to home depot, etc. My first redrill of the anchor roller bolt holes didn't line up well enough so I refilled two of 'em and will try again tomorrow. It's so easy to refill 'em and have another go there's no since in settling for something you don't like. Once the holes are right I can glue the pulpit piece down, and drill/fill the bolt holes for the pulpit itself there on the boat.

Says it's too dang hot this summer Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:21 pm
by Steven
Dougster wrote:I'm likin' the smaller one better; feedback sure is welcome.
I like the smaller one as well. I do think the transistion is a bit abrupt. I think it would look better if it flowed up a little more curvature.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:33 pm
by Dougster
It's time to update I think. I did soften that curve on the coaming, Steven. Glad you posted about it 'cuz I had been thinking it was too small a radius. I changed it from a 4" to a 12 " radius. Anyway, after laminating three pieces of 1/4" scrap and then cutting I ended up with both coamings. I couldn't make your idea of using a 1/2" router bit on the top of the coaming work Daddy. I tried it on scrap (fortunately). I'd do one side, flip it to do the other, and the ball bearing of the bit would follow the now curved part from the first cut and it'd be uneven. Maybe could have gone with it and just hand sanded to finish. Instead I used a 1/4" bit that let the bearing ride down the center of the coaming thickness. Then hand sanded till I was sick of it :lol: I'd like it more rounded to help glass lay over it, but oh well. I'm gonna try some 4 oz. glass on it (the inside, cockpit side). I got both coamings glued in and the starboard one taped. Heres the port one.
Image

Now here's the starboard one taped in. The tape comes up right to the coaming top, just before it becomes rounded a bit.
Image

I also made progress on the anchor pulpit. It had me pondering as it's of course a flat board laying on the stern deck, which is a curved (cambered) surface. Finally I wrapped the the cut, sanded, predrilled pulpit in plastic like this.
Image

Then I taped off the stern area I wanted no epoxy on, smeared on a bunch of wood floor thickened epoxy in the low areas, and smooched the pulpit down on top of it.
Image

After that set, I lifted off the pulpit to find this.
Image

Pretty good start, so I repeated the process and then glued it down for good. Then I used the predrilled holes as templates to drill through the deck, filled them with epoxy/wood flour, and redrilled to fit the 3/8" bolts. Six of 'em, three inches long will secure the thing I hope. Finally I put in a little fillet around it.
Image

I gotta tape the other coaming, then focus on the cabin front. I'm waiting on the two ordered fixed windows, since I wanna use 'em as templates and make the cut outs before I glue the panel in. Then the cabin top and it's hatch, with bracing etc. That's a ponder and I'll be studying your pics Daddy.

Slogging along Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:42 pm
by Prarie Dog
Nice looking work Dougster. :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:48 pm
by Daddy
Absolutely beautiful Dougster. Light cloth might make that radius. You will easily be able to put snaps on the outboard side of the coaming if you ever need too. I worked on my rigging problems today, lots of wires, not always sure where they go :help:
Daddy
just noticed the seat in the boat, another problem solved?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:52 pm
by Steven
That radius is just right now. Looking very good.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:54 pm
by Uncle D
Hi Dougster, Looooking very nice. Don

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:55 pm
by Dougster
Hey Don and PDog, how you guys doin? I did 20 minutes of sanding after I got home from work today and then headed for the AC :lol: The temp gauge read 102 in the shop. Ah well, this too shall pass. Thanks for the support from all of you. Steve, you got some credit due on that bigged up coaming radius. Daddy, I wish I had the chair thing pondered, but not yet. I'm pretty fixed on making two seat boxes, one for each console. This site has lots of cool pics for ideas http://www.boatbox.com.au/fitout.html. I'm thinkin' just a simple tapered box. Seems like all production chairs are boring modern looking, but I'm sure not gonna try to make a dang chair. I mean I'm not even a competent wood butcher yet, let along a furniture maker.

Says Lord let it rain Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:06 pm
by Daddy
This is sort of what I was thinking about for mine http://www.boatbox.com.au/images/fitout ... %20008.JPG
until I changed my mind, again :D
Seems like the most bang for the buck, I had planned to build mine right up against the coamings and let the outside of the hull be part of the box. Glad you are making progress Dougster.
If I am not careful I might just be in the water before the end of September. :) 8)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:42 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
The coaming looks great, that larger radius really makes it (thanks Steven :D ) I hear ya on the 102, even hotter this weekend! :help:
The Dog Days of Summer will be over soon..... :roll:
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:58 pm
by Dougster
Been plodding along. First I bent a cleat around the forward edge of the cabin front.
Image

Then I cut the window openings and glued it in.
Image

That was last weekend, actually. Today I decided to focus on less fun stuff. I used the fairing mix slurry suggestion to coat the decks this a.m., then got out the dang long board and sandpaper stuff and sanded the coamings, aft, and fore decks this afternoon. No need to post pics of scuffed up fairing. I liked using the resin fairing ketchup mix (thanks for the reminder MadDog) on horizontal surfaces. It's better than Quickfair a bit in that it will flow some and fill the weave. You can stretch it a long way. For the vertical cabin sides and coamings I'll use Quickfair to avoid sags. The longboard came back to me like an old friend :roll: I sanded an hour and a half before spreading the mix, let it set up, then did another hour and a half this afternoon. Four fingers of vodka with a little tonic and two ibuprofen and I'm fine :) I forgot how fun sanding is.

Gonna push the same way tomorrow Dougster

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:21 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Lookin' good over there! :D Like the windows. If you want a hand one of these Fridays (maybe 9-23) let me know, be nice to see Nina again. The darn heat should be a little less by then. BTW, those plans I mentioned at the Texas builder's meet are here (actually the arrived while we were in POC), I'll be starting a thread shortly on that.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:40 am
by Dougster
Hey John, a friday would be fun. The 23rd may work, but I have a gig at the Redbud in Blanco the next day and may need to practice with my partner on the 23rd. Maybe not though, let's see.

Likes boats and guitars Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:24 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Still on for Friday if you would like, sent you an email with my phone #.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:51 am
by Dougster
John, today is good. I got home late last night and didn't see your post 'till now. I didn't get the email either. I'll check here again in a bit to see if you got this post. Again, come on if you can.

Takin' it easy in the hill country Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:46 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Sounds good, I'll see about 11:00AM this morning.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:00 pm
by Dougster
I finally glued the cabin top beams John helped me cut and fit last weekend. The bigger job, which doesn't show in these pics, is I finished the topsides fairing :D I used the RO sander a lot, but spend plenty of time hand sanding with little bits of paper wrapped around various sticks, blocks, and dowels. I tried to be smarter with the Quickfair, so instead of repeatedly putting 6 ounces on and sanding it off I put 2 ounces on and sanded that off (repeatedly) :lol: Anyway, you finally get sick of that and things at least get smooth if not fair. Here are the beams clamped and glued in.

Image

Here's the hatch fit in just to see the thing.

Image

Now here's the joint. It's just a 2" beam so there's not a lot of purchase for the glue. 'Course I used fillet/tape on both sides of all 4 joints.

Image

Hope things are strong enough. When the epoxy is dried a bit more I'll trim that excess tape off. Then I'll work on cutting the top :D

Got tired of fairing Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:49 pm
by Daddy
Good work Dougster. Nice hatch. I used Okume on my cabin top and covered it with 4 oz or maybe 6 oz glass. You're gonna catch me yet. :D
We have to pull our boats from the marina supposedly on Oct 8 as that is when they will close for the season so I hope I get some boating in before the deadline.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:55 am
by chicagoross
Plenty strong enough, Dougster. That's basically the same as the roof on my HMD cabin. You're going to set the top down on those beams with epoxy, then filet and tape those beams to the top. Then probably lay a layer of 6 oz. bagric over the cabin top - I did, cause I knew folks would sit on it. They do, even a few big ones, and no problem to date.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:15 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for the reassurance guys. I'm just copying what I see you other guys do. I'm using 6mm Okoume too Daddy. This morning I measured and cut the two pieces. I didn't try to be a hero; cut them 1.5" proud all round. If my energy holds up I'd like to scarf one side this afternoon. Then tomorrow back to old boring paid work :lol: Heck, I'm still glad to have some of that kind to be honest. I can't figure how I'm gonna spread the glue on the cabin top, lift her up, flip her over, and set her in place by myself without smearing glue everywhere :doh: Something will come up though. It may be a while anyway, since I'd like to get a few things done in the cabin before the lid goes on and it's gets tight to work in there.

Still buildin' Nina Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:20 pm
by Spokaloo
Doug, put her up dry, line up one side, smear glue on the other. Then clamp down the opposite side (which has the glue smeared on it), release the dry side, smear glue, and reclamp.

Poof, glue mess not an issue.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:30 pm
by Dougster
Well thanky Eric, that's a much better idea than any I've had to date. There's lots of smarts on this board for sure. BTW, I look forward to your SS21 build very much. Instead of scarfing the cabin top this afternoon I hooked up my little beat up $75 trailer, drove the half hour to Home Depot, and brought home a 12' SYP 1X6 board to rip for spray rails. Since Daddy used 1.25" I may rip them that width, though the depth would just be a bit less than 1". Might look a bit funny, though the rounding off may help. I'll try with a little piece of scrap first. If I don't like it out of square like that I can rip it down to 1" quickly enough, but Daddy's are doin' the job at one and a quarter so I'd rather just go with that.

Gettin' by with a LOTTA help from my friends Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:35 am
by Daddy
Dougster, I would not round off the bottom edge of the rail. Good advice on the cabin roof. :D
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:23 am
by Dougster
Sure, I never meant to round of the bottom edge, but the top one. I see how rounding the bottom would defeat the purpose somewhat. BTW, when I fiberglass splice the two halves of the cabin top, should I double tape, staggered a bit? I'd rather fair a single piece of tape on each side, but ...?

Always scratchin' his head Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:41 am
by Daddy
I only put one piece of tape on the top side. Did not see the need to do the bottom, actually installed them one at a time and then did the tape. I used a full four feet wide piece from the fore end of the cabin (installed athwartship) and then filled in the balance, I think it was about 17 inches wide, then I added the tape on the topside, faired it a bit and then glassed the whole with 6 oz. It made it easier to handle for one person. I guess you could do it either way. On FESTIVUS I ran two pieces side by side longitudinally, joined with a 4 inch wide butt block underneath and tape on the topside, got underneath. picked up the whole works and set it in place, glued a la E's method. trimmed off the excess width with my router and glassed the whole works in 6 oz. Glad see you're ponderin', that's half the battle.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:52 pm
by Dougster
OK, thanks Daddy. My two halves are port/starboard with the seam running fore/aft. So, I have to tape first. I figure I'll cut the hatch after the top is glued in, to insure a fair, easy curve the whole length of the thing. I checked the SYP spray rail thing today, using a piece of scrap. The thickness of 1 by is really a bare 3/4", which makes the 1.25" width look kinda funky, like a shelf or something. I can see someone putting their foot on it and trying to step up on board from the trailer. I wonder if a 1.00' rail is enough. That would look better. Anyway, no work today or tomorrow, but back at it friday. Let us hear how your docking prowness continues! I bet I look like some kinda fool the first few efforts :lol: BTW, I continue to marvel at your girl running so fast and being so big on just 25 horses.

Said so Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:37 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, if I remember correctly I made mine out of a full fir 2 x 8 and cut strips from it and then cut them to 1 and a quarter and fillet both sides. You sure want something more than 3/4 stock I did not round off the top edge of mine but I think that would look good, kinda wish I had now. 8)
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:34 am
by Dougster
Well here's a wood question. A nearby lumbar yard has the following 2 by in affordable prices in all kinds of width and lengths:

"Treated Pine" -- ?? Wouldn't think so
Southern Pine--same as southern yellow pine?

"Rough Cedar" ---looks good and comes in 2x4 by 14'

"Green Douglas Fir"
"#2 and Better Douglas Fir"
"Standard andBetter Kiln Dried Douglas Fir" -------who knew there were 3 kinds of doug fir around here

I am, of course, talking about using this to bend around the hull chine for the spray rail. No glass on it.

:doh: Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:13 pm
by Daddy
I used old growth doug fir that was salvaged from a building reno, I guess the next best thing would be the dried fir, but you need to sort through and find nice straight grain, that is the key to bending success. Yellow pine (SYP) might be good if you can ifnd straight grain. I even think the cedar would work, if it is dry it will soak up neat epoxy and be hard and strong. Good hunting!
Daddy
PS Am hoping to get some shots of BUNKY at speed this weekend.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:14 pm
by Cracker Larry
No treated pine :help: SYP would be great, if straight grained like Daddy said. My next choice would be the #2 and better Douglas fir, it's probably air dried. The cedar would be last choice, it's softer than the others. They don't make cedar like they used to, not in my lumberyards anyway. Every area is different if you buy local.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:32 pm
by Dougster
Thanks guys, I believe I'll hitch up my little trailer and "go hunting" tomorrow. I hadn't thought about the straight grain thing, but since you point it out it makes sense. And I'd have bet ten bucks against the treated stuff. I'd bet more now :D The SYP is all 1x at the box store but it is nice straight grain stuff, so maybe it'll be that way for the 2x. I just came in from flipping the cabin top section and finishing up the scarf joint. I double taped (staggered) the top but single taped the bottom, figuring it was the compression side of the bend and less stressed. Gonna be fun to dry fit it tomorrow.

I'm sure looking forward to some pics of Bunky in action Daddy, good luck with that. And Larry, I'm checkin' daily to see when you start your next build. If you splash that one before me, well, dang I wouldn't know what to say :lol:

Hunting straight grain Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:02 pm
by Mad Dog
Dougster, this a place close to my house. They may have what you want.

http://www.braundera.com/

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:39 am
by Cracker Larry
And Larry, I'm checkin' daily to see when you start your next build. If you splash that one before me, well, dang I wouldn't know what to say :lol:
Making final plans now Doug, to splash by April 1. Will you be ready by then?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:49 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for the link MadDog, that looks like a nice little candy store. McCoys near Dripping Springs is closer so I just got back with a 14' 2x6 piece of southern pine. Gonna be a pain to rip, I'll be careful. Since I can see no way to splash before summer...uh re:

Cracker Larry wrote:
Making final plans now Doug, to splash by April 1. Will you be ready by then?
Doesn't know what to say Dougster 8O :oops: :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:18 pm
by Cracker Larry
Dougster, don't feel bad, you are making steady forward progress. That LB22 is equal to building 3 OD18s! She's a big chunk of boat to tackle and you've got most of the hurdles passed now. I think you'll make the Texas builders meet with her in tow next summer.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:52 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Larry, that's the plan, we'll see. I just finished ripping the 2x6 pine. The event was a success in that I didn't get hurt. Also, a success in the things I learned:
1) ripping 14' of 2x stock by yourself isn't a lot of fun
2) the stock stuff I bought is too dang green (curls as you rip it 8O ) and has too dang many knots
3) I've got a better idea of what to look for now

I'll finish it up and see if it'll make the bend, but doubt it. It was cheap stuff and at worst I now have enough cleat material for the next build 8) I got the top scarfed and dry fit. The okoume bends like a dream, nothing like meranti. Learning as I go.

Still got ten fingers Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:05 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, whatever you get should be knot free, sorry you had a hard time. Wish I could give you a hand with the cutting, I have all the tools left from my house building days. . Glad you still have your fingers. Sometimes wood twists like that because it has been dried too fast or has some internal stress built up. Went for a couple of hours cruise today but couldn't figure a way to get the pic that I want, maybe tomorrow
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:10 pm
by Steven
I used 3/4 round pine molding from Home Depot on the GV11. Worked great and has held up well. Takes the bends withtout a problem and comes in 16' lengths. I've used it on the OB19 as well.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:45 am
by Dougster
Man would that make things easier. When you say round do you mean quarter round molding, with two flat sides at 3/4" each? It's good news that 3/4" was enough for you, as I've thought maybe it needs Daddy's full inch and a quarter.

Says now you got me thinkin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:58 pm
by Steven
It was fine on the GV11. I'm sure it will be fine on the OB19.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:36 pm
by Daddy
Personally I think that mine are bare minimum. I sure would not want to go any smaller. I would even consider two layers of 3/4 if that is what it comes down to. Renn Tolman on his Tolman Skiffs uses two layers, one of plywood and one of a high density plastic to get the dimension and wearability. I am not suggesting that because it would require lots of screws through the hull, but two layers of wood glued on would get the job done if you cannot find thicker material. Hang in there Dougster, you will be happy with beefier rails.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:43 pm
by Steven
I'm not sure why bigger would be better if the spray rail is attached at the chine. It makes quite a negative angle. Any water has to be angled down and away. If I was adding a rail higher up that was to catch and deflect spray, bigger would definitely be better.

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:12 am
by Daddy
The chine on the lb22 follows a different path. Topwater used 1 1/2 by 1 1/2 cypress on his NV. I have not looked at my plans in a while and wonder what they call for on the lb22. In any case, I would not want anything smaller than what I used and almost wish I had the 1 1/2 rails.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:36 pm
by Dougster
Thanks guys, for sure Nina's rails are way higher at the bow than the pic just shown. Very different line. I'll keep on it a while. I've been thinking about using two pieces of the 3/4" Daddy, now that you mention it. I'd cut the first piece at one and a quarter inches and glue it on. Then the second could be cut the same, ripped down to 1/2" by 1.125" and glued on top of the first piece, using it to help with clamping on. Hard to put in words, but lemme keep at it. For now I'm busy at work for the next 4 days. I've got my heart set on having spray rails now, so I'll get 'em one way or another.

Foolin' with it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:14 pm
by ericsil
Steven is right on. That downward tilt deflects the spray outward, affecting a much larger volume of water than just the size of the rail. I also used a 1/4" quarter round on my P19 and it works fine, as you can see from some of the pictures in my gallery.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:15 pm
by ericsil
Sorry, that was, of course, a 3/4" quarter round, not a 1/4"

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:56 pm
by Dougster
Well 3/4" sure would be easier. I pushed on with my cheapo pine this weekend. As I said ripping it was tough and it warped badly. Still, at $6.50 it's a good practice piece. Anyway, I ripped a some 1.25" square pieces and scarfed them. Here is the piece lined up, ready to test fit:
Image

I finally came up with a Rube Goldberg way of clamping, without drilling through the hull. It's a bunch of levers and took too long to dry fit, but maybe I'll get the kinks out. Here's a couple of pics of the finally dry fit effort.

Image

Image

There's the cabin top clamped on, but not glued in that last pic. I'm not committed to this spray rail on now. There's a lot of force in those levers to force the shape. 3/4" would sure be easier, especially if I can find some 12' or better lengths. I found some nice 1" by 1" pine listed in a San Antonio lumbar yard, but only in 8' lengths, which would mean two scarfs. This week I'll call around. Meanwhile I'll leave that piece on now and see if it relaxes a bit.

Says it was something of a struggle Dougster :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:13 am
by topwater
Dougster when i put my rails on i started at the stern and just put glue on the first 8' of rail.
Get that section all lined up and clamped and then start on the next section. With the way
the hull is shaped you should have enough room between the rail and the hull to brush the gel magic onto the rail then bend
into postion and clamp. You should have plenty of time doing it in sections and not having to worry about doing the whole
rail at once. Also if you are going to do a 1" roundover on the rail it takes a good bit of wood off the rail and makes
bending a little easyer. Hope this helps.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:10 pm
by Dougster
Well thanks for that idea Top. I had wondered about doing a third, letting it set up, then moving on, but feared I couldn't get the glue in that little quarter inch area where the dried glue ended. With your way I can take my time with the clamps. Very nice. I did think the round over would improve the flexibility, but it it means the clamps, the 2 by 2 levers really, wouldn't have that top hard edge of the rail to press on and help force the twist needed. Needs pondering I guess. BTW, I know to rough up the area good for the glue to grab hold of. Do folks thing 80 grit is enough? 60 better?

Still lettin' that rail rest in place Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:23 pm
by Daddy
Dougster, I did not round over my rail and it went into place just fine. I clamped it up, let it rest for a couple of days, and glued her up. No probs. I have mine on the hard now and the grunge from the lake has shown me the location of the waterline. I noticed a knot in the rail you have so guess this is just a practice piece. :oops:
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:33 pm
by gk108
That clamping system is pure genius. Rube would be proud. 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:05 pm
by Dougster
Thanks GK, but I bet other folk's have got something better. It does seem to work though so I'm stickin' with it. Daddy, when I ripped that pine I thought whoa, this is never gonna work. Still, to practice at least, I scarfed two pieces and lo and behold they make the bend. I thought sure it would break at one of the knots (there's a bunch :oops: ). Then I wondered, well, maybe I oughta just glue it on. Now I'm thinking, epoxy capsulation or no, won't those knots shrink or something, and end in a crack/break? I don't really know, but unless folks who do say otherwise, yeah, sure, that's a practice piece :lol:

Got some doubts about those knots Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:48 pm
by Daddy
Much easier to fix now. Those knots could be a killer later on. :help:
Daddy, don't want you having regrets :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:53 pm
by gk108
I'd sure try to use knot free wood for those rails. I needed something like that for several places on the inside of my rebuild and the only suitable thing I could find was some 2x6 that I ripped into a bunch of 1ยฝ"x1ยฝ" and 1"x1" finished size. If you look at some of the 2x6 or 2x8 you will have a better chance of finding something with enough clear wood to rip the size you need out of it. Buy a good 2x8 and cut away everything that doesn't look like a spray rail. :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:49 pm
by Dougster
No work on the boat last weekend. It was our 30th anniversary and I'm not that dumb :lol: Today I taped off the rail area that needs to be sanded so the epoxy will grab hold. I just started sanding the little inch and a half by 21' long strip of hull when I wondered how much to sand. I had thought just to rough it up, but given the force of that bend and given that epoxy is all there is to hold it on, should I take it down to bare wood? About half of it is 2 coats of S3 primer and several coats of graphite. The rest is just primer. Rough it up or back to wood? BTW, the multimaster seems to make the job simple, either way. Oh yeah, I found some supposedly clear 16' Doug fir (2x4) to use for the real rail. I haven't gone to get it yet though.

Back on it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:53 pm
by gstanfield
Congrats on the 30th anniversary :!:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:01 pm
by tobolamr
I second that Congrats on the 30th anniversary!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:13 pm
by Daddy
Perserverance, that's what counts in marriage and boat building :D
That doug fir should work out great for you. No need to take it down to bare wood, just rough it up good. If you go down to bare wood you will cut thru lots of good glass because you are following the chine, right? You will have the fillets for holding and support too. The fillet along the top could be bigger than usual if you want more strength and holding. Straight grain fir was what I used and it held beautifully. No screws at all. Pictures please.
Daddy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:48 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Daddy, somehow I didn't even thing about the glass :oops: Good God, no way I'd want to grind through all that good tape. Take a week off and loose your dang brain. Thank God for the forum.
Daddy wrote:Perserverance, that's what counts in marriage and boat building :D
There's plenty wisdom there. Lotta things hinge on showin' up, every day. Regarding the 30 years, I'm just plain grateful. Can't wish more for any guy than a good woman.

Got lucky Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:03 pm
by Dougster
I had time today to get on with the rails, and the first thing I'll say is that Doug Fir is great stuff compared to cheapo, warped, knotted, half green dang construction grade pine. At 6 times the cost I guess it outta be. The practice run on the pine payed off though. I spent more time setting up the table saw just so and never had a hitch. It helped that I saw a video on kickbacks the other day and understand what goes on to cause that now. Anyway, first I cut the 2x6 in to four, just a hair under 1.25" by 11' pieces:
Image
Then I clamped 'em up, drew a 10" line for the scarf and set the skill saw as deep as it will go.
Image
Next I made the cuts, finishing with a hand saw:
Image
Finally, I glued up the scarfs.
Image

That's all I got done today, but it felt good. I dunno want to walk around in there 'cuz I know I'll forget and stumble into one of 'em and mess up the scarf. So heck, knock off, close the door, happy hour's not that far off anyway :lol: Tomorrow I intend to sand the starboard area where the rail fits, clean it well, dry fit it, and if time and courage hold, glue it on.

Wants rails Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:49 pm
by Cracker Larry
happy hour's not that far off anyway
It's 5 o'clock somewhere :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:56 pm
by peter-curacao
Cracker Larry wrote:
happy hour's not that far off anyway
It's 5 o'clock somewhere :lol:
Over here it is Saluut!Image (I smuggled five minutes)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:18 pm
by Spokaloo
Nice work Doug!

I guess I shouldn't bring up that occasionally I can get high quality CVG doug fir in 10 foot lengths for $1.40 a board foot...

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:25 pm
by Dougster
No, definitely don't bring that up Eric. If you did I forgot it already :lol: Some things are best kept out of mind. Looks like I'm about out of both time and courage for today. I roughed up the rail area on the hull, cleaned up the scarfs (which came out well), then struggled most of the day trying to dry fit it with my oddball levers clamp system. I had to go get some more ratcheting straps. It's dry fit now, but I need to rehearse fitting it again to get more efficient or the glue will kick off too soon. It's a tough bend and I worry about the glue holding in a tough chop with the boat flexing. Definitely will give it a big fillet, top and bottom. I'm running the rail stem to stern, which means a lot of bend, lift, twist. Would be a lot easier with a smaller rail, but I'm sticking with the 1.25" so far.

Hoping tomorrow tells the tail Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:44 pm
by Daddy
Good luck Dougster. That fir relaxes after a while and the glue will hold. The fillet on the top will do most of the work and you wont be sorry that you did it once you get out in a chop at WOT 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:52 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for good luck wish, Daddy, it may have helped. I had reviewed the campaign several times in my mind, and today was it. Yes, first I girdled my loins. Admittedly not a pretty image but there it is. With my nerve up I ran through a dry run, then prepped my glue:
Image
That dang blue gelmagic came set like jello. Won't pour a lick, so I just cut the top off and cover it with saran wrap. I figured I'd need a cup of the blue so I prepared two separate batches, to glue one half first, then the other. Then I went to spreading, dripping, smearing the goop. I seemed to get it everywhere but I think some got on the rail too :lol: I dry clamped the front half of the rail and glued the stern half first.

The second half was more tricky, as you have to pull a bit of the first half off a bit in order to get that first foot or two of rail smeared. After that it was something of a fire drill to get the whole rail gooped and then cinch up those straps/clamps. Inevitably I found it not quite lined up with the chine or something and had to loosen things. But in the end, if it wasn't victory it was at least a draw, and I cleaned drips for a bit. Here she sits curing:
Image
Image

It was harder than I wanted it to be and now I gotta do the port one next weekend. I believe I'll leave those clamps on all week while I'm at work. It's a 4 day week for me so I'll jump on the port rail friday. If I can do one I can do the other. It'd be nice if they came out kinda even though 8O

Daddy, I like that windshield mock up plenty. You're sure right, makes her a new boat. Down here in our heat a bimini would be great. I won't focus on that 'till she's launched though; gotta push toward that. It'll be a good feeling to get both rails on for sure.

Still in the game Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:44 pm
by Daddy
Looks great D. Did you sand down to the glass? It almost looks like you put it right over the paint, which I am sure is not the case as you mentioned sanding. Did you sand enough to allow for the fillets too? They will hold as much as the glue will I think. Nice to have one side done eh? Looks lie a nice fair line

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:57 pm
by Dougster
No, Daddy, I didn't sand to glass. That's not paint though, that's epoxy with graphite. The white is S3 primer, which I think of as epoxy. I thought roughing up the epoxy is all that was needed, so hit it with 80 grit. Hope that's not wrong. I do intend to sand above the rail later for the fillet. Heck, after a few days I'll pull of the clamps and see if it holds. Thoughts?

Says time will tell Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:12 pm
by Daddy
Should be fine D, like you said, time will tell. When I did mine I was surprised to see how much the fir relaxed after being dry clamped for just one day. It sprung back but not nearly as much as I would have thot.(I have decided to write words like that the easy way, brot, thot, etc.) :D I'm sure it will be fine, before I did mine I contemplated all kinds of screws, esp. up front but no probs so far.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:19 pm
by Spokaloo
Hard jobs like that make the easy ones just a little more enjoyable.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:21 pm
by peter-curacao
Dougster wrote:No, Daddy, I didn't sand to glass. That's not paint though, that's epoxy with graphite. The white is S3 primer, which I think of as epoxy. I thought roughing up the epoxy is all that was needed, so hit it with 80 grit. Hope that's not wrong. I do intend to sand above the rail later for the fillet. Heck, after a few days I'll pull of the clamps and see if it holds. Thoughts?

Says time will tell Dougster
I think but not sure it was better if you grinded to the glass, but since the fillets still has to come its not a big problem I think.
At my rubrails I used the upper side of a dremmel grinding stone similar like thisImage to grind a clean surface for the fillets, worked pretty well

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:39 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for the hopeful comments. BTW, I noticed the same thing as you Daddy. The rail had relaxed quite a bit after being dry fit just one day. That was not the case at all with that practice piece of pine. It was on a week and relaxed very little. I'll give it a few days, then pull the clamps and see if it holds well with no fillet. If it seems sound I'll add the fillet. Maybe I'll grind to glass for the port rail and time will sure tell which is best then.

Back to work tomorrow Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:55 pm
by Daddy
I think I would be tempted to put some fillet on now, especially up front, work between your clamps. Wouldn't take long and would be good insurance. Leave the clamps as long as possible. What could it hurt?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:01 pm
by Dougster
Yeah, I'll wait till friday when I have the day off. The reason not to put a fillet on between the clamps is just, if there's a weak link, better find it now? Least that was my thought. If friday I take off the clamps, tug on it, whatever, and it holds, then I'd have a vote of confidence.

Thinkin' that way for now Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:35 pm
by Spokaloo
I hate re-fairing things that were already pretty much fair, so I'd probably lay the fillets as one piece. Though you feel like there isn't much glue holding that force right now, you might be surprised at how well stuck those spray rails are.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:47 pm
by peter-curacao
Spokaloo wrote:I hate re-fairing things that were already pretty much fair, so I'd probably lay the fillets as one piece. Though you feel like there isn't much glue holding that force right now, you might be surprised at how well stuck those spray rails are.

E
I agree!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:38 am
by Dougster
Seems to be a plan. I bet it holds when I take of the clamps, and then I'll run one continuous fillet. If it doesn't hold, I wouldn't have wanted to settle for that, and will pull it off as best I can and start over. Bet I'd be mad though :lol:

Thinks it'll hold Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:19 am
by topwater
Doug as long as there is a good surface to stick to gelmagic will hold it. When i took the screws out i thought
i was going to get hit when the rail sprung loose, but it stuck just fine. I have the same problem with the gelmagic
man that stuff is thick :!: I rap a rachet strap around the jug and use that to squease it out.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:25 am
by Daddy
:D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:14 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Looks like you and Rube G have been busy over there! :D Be careful, Rube's gonna want a day off (or at least a raise 8O ). BTW, I'm off next Friday (11-18) if you need a hand.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:25 pm
by Dougster
Hey John, next friday sounds good for now. I've been at it today for sure (three ibuprofen with happy hour :lol:) I want to praise good old gel magic. The rail stuck good . I pulled off the clamps and all was quiet. I tugged on it, then stepped up on it for an instant, and said good 'nuff. Then I started in on sanding the little part above the rail so I could lay in the fillet. It was a pita and my fault for not doing it before the rail went in. I won't make that mistake on the port rail. Anyway, stubborn and a half dozen 80 grit multimaster sandpaper pieces did it. God bless that tool; otherwise it'd be by hand and oh lord! Next I laid on a fillet, which was a pita too 'cuz it's a LONG fillet and I was running out of EZ fillet. I used every last bit, then smoothed it as best I could with a bit of Silvertip epoxy, neat, and a chip brush. I thing I learned that epoxy smoothing tip from Spokaloo and it's a good one. After that (and lunch), I moved the clamping rigging over to the port side and dry fit the port rail to let her sit and relax overnight. It doesn't sound like all that much, but it typed a whole lot easier than happened. Anyway, God bless ibuprofen and happy hour. Here's a pic of the rail, sanded, right before the fillet.
Image
Wishes all vets a good evenin' and and a peaceful night Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:13 am
by Spokaloo
Honestly Doug, I'm a bit jealous of your build...

You've taken the longest, but you have been able to get all of the little nuanced changes accomplished that the rest of us have found through use of our boats. Those spray rails are going to be sweet, and I bet you are going to be the most efficient of all of us with them on there full length. Your cabin turned out great, she's gonna be fair and smooth, it's just not fair.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:39 am
by Daddy
Nice work D. I see a splash in Spring

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:36 am
by Dougster
You guys are kind, but all of your builds exceed my efforts, and in way less time. Still, this is not some competitive thing. Daddy, spring would be sweet but I know I'll never make it. It is true that, by being slow I've benefited tremendously from your efforts and threads. These rails wouldn't have happened but for Daddy's example and Eric's determination to add them this season. That sure convinced me to make the effort. I wouldn't have thought to make them full length either but for your mention of it Eric, along with the little extra lift it can bring. Today I gotta sand on the port side for the other rail.

Wishin' they were both done Dougster :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:40 pm
by Dougster
Yesterday I got everything in place and prepped for the port spray rail glue up. This morning, coffee'd up and, clear eyed, joined the campaign. Having pondered for some time, I figured doing one half, clamping it, then trying to glue up the forward half was not necessary. So after a little dry run I pre-measured two batches of gelmagic, and had at it. I knew just how much to use, so off I went. The first batch went on the hull, the pita part of it as it wants to run and drip off. I was ready for this with a chip brush in one hand, keeping the ziplock full of glue with the cut corner in the other. It went clean and fast. Then I mixed the second batch, put it in a baggie, cut the corner, and laid it on the rail, which was positioned flat so the glue didn't run. Went clean and fast.

It seems likely God does love even a fool, because all this time doom was sitting on my left shoulder :lol: I stood up at the bow end, after finishing the 21' run of glue, prepared to go back to the stern and start clamping her from there, moving up to the stern. But grace happens, and I happened to look down and somehow realized I had smeared the glue on the wrong side of the rail 8O The stern is beveled and, seeing the bevel angled wrong clued me I guess. Had I not noticed and walked back to the stern I'd of had the whole thing on before I found out...not pretty.

Now, instead of being grateful for my moment of Grace, I did what most of us do and cursed my fate. Several things quickly came to mind.

1. Run around in circles and scream like a little girl.
2. Go get my hammer and knock myself in the head.
3. Scrape it all off and start over.
4. Scrape off just the glued on the rail, not the hull, and mix more glue.

Well I settled on 4. I started scraping it off into a cup. Half way through the cup was showing a lotta glue so I though, well, I'll use it. I scraped most all of it off, turned the rail so the correct side was up, and, using the chip brush, spread the glue back on. Happily, it was enough to cover so I didn't need to waste time mixing more glue. I'm rattled good by now and proceeded with the rest of what had become of a fire drill. The dang scraped off glue side of the rail was now outboard and the wood levers would stick to it so I had to fool with packing tape to prevent it. I knocked things over, dropped stuff, tripped, cursed, wanged on the dang rail with a hammer to adjust it, etc. At one point, bent over trying to tape a chock against one of the levers, a three foot clamp fell on my head. Didn't cut me so I guess Grace was still on my side. In the end, I think I got her on.

Image

Appreciates Grace Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:42 pm
by Daddy
Have mercy!!!! :help:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:52 pm
by Cracker Larry
Laughing so hard that I can't type :lol: :lol:

Edit: only because I've been there and done most of that :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:28 pm
by BassMunn
Dougster, you're too funny, I loved that last run down.
Your boat is coming along really nicely

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:03 pm
by Dougster
Thanks guys. You gotta laugh, huh? Not that I really saw the humor all that well in the moment, though. I do wish I could say that's the first time I've made that mistake, but....it's not :lol: Anyway, more EZ fillet is due friday, so the clamps come off and the fillet goes on. Then I'll re-apply the bottom epoxy graphite, prime the rest, and be done with the splash rail program. Should be a good feeling.

Says here's to movin' on Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:58 pm
by Steven
When I was laminating my transom, I aplied glue to both sides of an outside layer. :) It's easy to do. Teach me to talk to the wife when I should be concentrating on what I was doing. :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:25 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
You got the spray rail thing good to go :D This Friday still works for me, let me know.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:51 pm
by Dougster
John I got a hitch. Wife has a Doc appointment and I'm on duty 8 to Noon waiting for the washing machine repair guy to show for a major rehab. We got two big boxes of UPS parts sitting on the porch. Maybe I can build a boat, but I sure can't fix the washer :lol: If it takes all morning I dunno, but it may not :doh: Why don't you call me Friday morning at eight thirty three, zero nine eighty five to check out whats up.

Says it's always something Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:47 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Sounds good to me, I'll call you Friday morning. Any of those washer parts fit Nina? :D 8O
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:16 pm
by chicagoross
Gotta have the washing machine for all those dusty clothes!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:00 am
by Dougster
Sounds good John, and you just gave me an idea Chicago. I'm gonna ask the guy if he's got a mod to get out epoxy :wink:

Dreamin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:30 am
by Daddy
Scissors Dougster, the only solution for it :help:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:09 pm
by Mad Dog
I just assumed the epoxy ladden jeans were that much more durable for the long haul of building a boat. :D

One agreement I had with SWMBO during the rebuild was that I had to wash all my glass impregnated work cothes myself. :( She wanted nothing to do with the itchy skin issue. :roll:

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:22 pm
by wegcagle
I will say that once you get a good pair of epoxy soaked jeans at the knees they are invaluable 8) It's kinda like build in knee protection. I wore the same pair of paints for all of the inside work. By the end I didn't even need knee pads :lol: The down side is that after a while they do start tearing at the edges :cry:

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:01 pm
by Dougster
I finished the underside fillet on both rails today, so they're done, and I'm glad of it. Had to crawl around on my back to sand and prep that underside, then do the same to lay and smooth the fillet. It kinda wore me out, especially craning my neck around. Sure woulda been nice having one of those creeper things mechanics use. The last step will be a bit of fairing around the fillets, then put on the graphite epoxy and primer. Here's the best pic I could manage.
Image


Same old slow lane Dougster :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:25 pm
by chicagoross
Looks like she's ready to charge out of the garage!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:42 pm
by Daddy
I almost missed the pondering chair... but a shawl too...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:46 pm
by gstanfield
She's looking good Dougster, real good :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:09 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Looks like a boat again without Rube's latest collection of sticks and various straps! :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:48 am
by Dougster
Moaning Chair with Shawl :lol: Kind Norman Rockwell look huh? That is a kind of boat builder's shawl too, a spare, long sleeved, epoxy shirt. Back to work for 2 days, then Turkey break.

Likes turkey fine Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:29 pm
by wegcagle
Nice work Dougster. She's gonna be a dry ride 8)

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:39 pm
by Mad Dog
Hey Dougster! What's up? Last post was 11/21/11. Everything okay?

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:27 am
by Dougster
Yeah I'm good 'Dog, just makin' a little progress that doesn't merit any pics. I've been fairing/sanding the spray rails. I had to smooth the underneath edges, right along the chine for the aft 2/3rds of the hull, which meant laying on my back and sanding overhead. Pita. I ended up rigging a homemade creeper out of casters that kept falling apart :lol: The top of the rails has a big fillet that is very visible so I'm about 2/3rs through with sanding that thing smooth. Only way I can figure to do it is by hand, with a wood dowel wrapped in 80 grit. It's tedious, but one side is finished and the other is gonna be easier 'cuz I did a much better job with the fillet there. I have some quickfair due in from Bateau Thursday and may finish 'em off with a bit of that as needed.

Otherwise I'm pondering the final cockpit design. I mocked up an enclosure for the bait well which I like and have decided to include. Then there's the box/platform supports for the helm and first mate seats. Then where will company sit :doh: I'm leaning toward a couple of little fold down one person bench seats on either side of the bait tank for now. I'll be posting mock up pics of that pretty soon, 'cuz I'd sure like some input on it. Thanks for checkin' in; next time you're in the Blanco area lemme know and stop by for a gander and a chin wag.

Hunkered down in the hill country Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:16 pm
by Steven
You need to get some detail sanding profiles. They will make your life much better.


http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page ... %20sanding

Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:09 pm
by Dougster
I've got that very set Steve :lol: Still, the biggest round over piece in it wanted to dig a rut in my fillet. A bigger dowel worked the ticket. The fillet's smooth now, mostly, but there's smeared gelmagic on the graphite coated hull above it that's gotta be done. I would have save myself some trouble by taking the time to clean up above and below the rail with a vinegar soaked rag way back when I first got the rails clamped on. For now I think I'll RO it real quick, 'cuz I gotta coat the area with graphite again anyway. These rails have been a dang PITA but I'd have regretted leaving 'em off.

Got a bead on the job now Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:33 pm
by Daddy
Are you telling us it is too cold in Texas to work on your boat??

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:16 am
by Dougster
Heck yeah, it got down to the low 40's this week 8O Normally we get the National Guard called out in temps like that but Governor Perry's been busy :lol: Yesterday morning the wife went out to fill the bird feeders and I suddenly noticed it was 43 degrees out there. I kept my cool, cracked open the door and hollered for her to run for the house. She almost made it before I got the door closed against the cold, too.

In truth I can only blame old slo poke work an hour goof a half day me. Still, I got the spray rails all cleaned up and ready for graphite and primer. I'm puzzled on the paint line for the primer and managed this pic. It has a lazer red line running right where the primer meets the graphite bottom.
Image

Kinda bad pic but you can see the line. It makes a couple of funny angles due to the geometry of the thing. Do folks follow that line when painting or just make some other kind of compromise :doh:

Also, I've realized I need the boat seats here to get a hands on feel and see 'em in place. They're a real head scratch for me and can be silly pricey. I think I'm gonna run the hour over to Cabella's tomorrow for a look see (only work Tues/Wed this week). Here's the current mock up of a seat box (1 foot square) and the bait well enclosure.
Image

Image

The box is probably taller than I'll want it and I'm wondering if 1 foot square is a little big. I could tell better with the actual seat on it. Maybe I'll get lucky at Cabellas. BTW, that seat/swivel mount shown in the picture seems like a well made piece. Pretty heave and stout, and I like it.

Says Merry Christmas Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:57 am
by Daddy
Nice. Glad to see you are still at it. I think you need to mark the water line by using your laser and follow that line no matter. I think that WB had an article on how to do it some years back but I do not have the index to look it up. I plan to set up a laser in the spring to set my water line now that I know where it is now that I have seen how she sits in the water, just enough lake grunge left to show the way. The laser should guide me over the spray rail. As far as your seat goes you will need to be able to see over the cuddy when seated that being the governing factor. I feel my seat is higher than I would like but any lower would impede line of sight. Check out the rail that Atkin shows on the Ninegret. I am tempted to install one on each side of BUNKY, sure would be nice in a heavy sea.http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Oar/Ninigret.html

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:12 am
by topwater
Image
I taped right along the lazer line when i painted the bottom of mine.
the line makes some crazy cut backs 8O

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:17 am
by TRC886
Dougster wrote: work an hour goof a half day
Shouldn't that be ponder a half day :wink: :lol:
Image

Image

The box is probably taller than I'll want
It does appear to be a little too tall, but you'll have to try it to actually know. Note that you will need a footrest if you cannot comfortably put your feet on the floor.
it and I'm wondering if 1 foot square is a little big.
Make the base as large as possible/practical and taper it in to the top...it'll be a lot stronger. Make the top just big enough to bolt the seat base down.

Keep up the good work :!: :D

trc

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:33 am
by Cracker Larry
That seat box would be a great place to put a built in tackle station with pull out drawers on the back side :idea: You must be planning on a lot of bait with that tank, going to need tackle storage too.
I think that WB had an article on how to do it some years back but I do not have the index to look it up. I plan to set up a laser in the spring to set my water line.
Yes they did, but I'm thinking it was only a year or so ago. It was probably in that stack I recently sent to Topwater. The article was actually about painting the boot stripe IIRC, but same principle applies. Worth reading if you can find it. Anyway, the way most people do it is not with a straight line, but a line that is slightly curved, and somewhat higher in the bow and stern than it is amidships. Somewhat following the sheer curve. This way if the boat is slightly out of trim the line still looks right to the eye. If it is a little down by the bow or stern this gives the optical illusion that the boat is level.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:52 am
by Dougster
Thanks for pic Top, that's what I'll do, just follow the lazer line. The taper idea has been on my mind, TRC, though narrowing the top limits storage volume. Larry, you read my mind. I've been wanting to put tackle storage there but it's kinda tight even at 12" square. The little plastic Plano type tackle tray/boxes thingies I have stuff in now are 11", and with cleats inside the seat box things are tight. I decided not to spend a lot of time designing/making nice sliding trays, etc. I'll just have space to shove 4 or 5 of those little boxes in.

The bait well does seem more like a live well :lol: I ordered it on line and didn't realize how big it'd be. When UPS delivered it and I opened up the box I considered just putting it back of the house for an above ground pool. Here's the thing in the boat uncovered.
Image
I was thinking of putting little bench seats on either side and there's a mock up of one in the above pic. In the end I passed on that notion as it seems to cramp up the space too much. Like TRC says, there's sure a lot of pondering. BTW, that rail sure does look nice on the Ningret Daddy. Haven't I seen some pics of something like that with canvas on the side for protection? Seems like Spokaloo posted one.

We've got a soft rainy morning and 58 degrees here in the hill country right now. SWMBO got up before dark and took off to meet a girlfriend for a day of birding. Gotta admire her moxie, given this goopy weather. I'm thinkin' on a run to Cabella's with a big old travel mug full of coffee.

Says it's sure not all good, but there's plenty that is Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:52 pm
by Daddy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/58177895@N ... 439460250/
That would be the bartender type boat I am pretty sure. I like the idea of that rail for a little insurance especially for the person in the "passenger seat" since they do not have a wheel to hold on to if she rolls and pitches in rough weather. Right now there is nothing for that person to hold on to. I could add a grab bar somewhere but I like that rail. Trying to figure out how to make one out of brass to match my other hardware and then figure out how to attach it :help:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:49 pm
by Dougster
I've mocked up two tapered seat boxes with scrap luan:
Image

Does the smaller one look better :doh: Less volume for storage than the bigger one but not much. The wife thinks maybe that left smaller one looks a little better but she's not sure. Any notions out there?

Today I spent half my time pondering and re-arranging scrap pieces trying to figure out the baitwell cover box. I had wanted to make it so the bait tank could be removed without cutting the box, but that's too much a pita. I'll just have to get it right or cut it out later if that's ever necessary. I am making it a little wider so there's room for two people to sit on it. I gave up on the tricky fold out seats idea 'cuz I need to move on. So I cut out the panels for the box front and sides just now, along with pieces for the frame. Felt good to cut real wood instead of scrap. Happy Hour and New Year for now. I'm staying home with SWMBO. Cleaned a pound of shrimp for creole. Got ice cream and apple cake for desert. Got a video, a half finished jig saw puzzle, my wife, and a book. Don't need to go nowhere.

Wishin' folks a good, safe New Year Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:04 pm
by Spokaloo
I like the little one just because i know how tight that cockpit gets once everyone and all their crap is in the boat.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:54 pm
by Daddy
You saw mine Dougster, just a turned 4x4 post with a top anchored to the coaming. Plenty of other storage in the boat.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:00 pm
by Cracker Larry
I like the smaller one also.
Happy Hour and New Year for now. I'm staying home with SWMBO. Cleaned a pound of shrimp for creole. Got ice cream and apple cake for desert. Got a video, a half finished jig saw puzzle, my wife, and a book. Don't need to go nowhere.
I like that :D Shrimp here tonight too, Doug. Fried shrimp and grouper fingers, and we ain't going anywhere either :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:32 pm
by chicagoross
Don't need to go nowhere.
Good plan! Just what we did, except my wife cooked up a storm. Happy New Year, Dougster, Daddy, Eric, Larry!

Ross

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:40 pm
by Daddy
Right back at ya Ross and all...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:50 am
by Dougster
Looks like the smaller is better thing is a winner. Hope all you other stay homers had a good evening. Shirley and I barely made midnight, but we did. We just drove the 4 miles to town for breakfast this morning and got all coffee'd an egg'd up. Now it's a little forum and internet time, then a couple hours on the build. Larry, our creole was fine and I'd bet your shrimp and grouper worked out just right too.

Startin' 2012 feeling good Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:06 am
by Prarie Dog
Dougster, I'll throw my vote out there for the little one. Sounds like everybody had good food yesterday. SWMBO fixed us Clam Pie for lunch and Pulled Pork with Frijoles and Corn Bread for supper. I gotta go work some of it off, Happy New Year. :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:32 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Jumping in late as usual (I've been sick since New Years Day, must have got caught in the crossfire between yours and Cracker Larry's shrimp nets (I'm allergic to shellfish :( ), anyway I like the smaller one too :D . Like Eric and Daddy said, lots of other "stuff" to add to the load and plenty of other storage area in the boat. On the stern seat/baitwell combo: you might want some kind seat on either side of the baitwell (just a bottom, no back) that is removable. You can use it for covered storage (no front panel under the seat) and use it for a step on either side to get in/out of Nina and removable if you wanted to stand there while fishing. That seems like a big step in and out of the boat, don't want you (or Shirley) doing any swan dives into the cockpit.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:22 pm
by Dougster
Continuing on with the bait tank cover, here it is dry fit without the lid.
Image

I had planned to glue/tape it down then notice how nicely it folded forward like this.
Image

Heck, then I wouldn't have to tear it up to get to the tank for repair or whatever. That got me to thinking I could just make it removable, so if I don't like it, take it off. Through bolts at the back going through the bulkhead would hold if fine, I think (no screws to the sole). The bottom edge will sit against Kiwi Grip. It seems like I ought to put some rubber something on that edge. I don't want it smudging the Kiwi to much and sure don't want to hear it rattle. Any ideas on tape? There's all kinds of rubber tape out there of course. Or some kind of caulk? If I had some left over neoprene from the gas tank install I'd use that but it's all gone. Seems like all kind of things would work.

Pondering as I go Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:44 pm
by gk108
I'd try to fasten the front to the deck somehow. A block glued to the sole inside of both corners gives you something to screw into from the side instead of screwing down into the sole.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:09 pm
by Spokaloo
Two big hinges glued/screwed to the sole, of the type that can be slid sideways to open them up, and some cleats on that bulkhead to make sure as it sits down that it remains in place solidly.

I had something very similar for an engine cover on Tailgunner. It was just painted wood resting on painted wood, and it worked just fine. I'd think if you used the same neoprene strips you set your fuel tank on, you'd be fine. When they wear out, just replace them.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:12 am
by Dougster
Hey Eric, it's good to know you still check on my thread. BTW, I've seen that you admire the BlueJacket design, which tickles me, since I have often looked at it. It seems that folks who lean to the Nina have similar preferences in boats. I notice the same phenomena with Daddy; pics of boats he posts are the types I prefer as well. Anyway, regarding Neoprene, that would be nice I think. Yesterday I remembered a liquid rubber type product that you dipped tool handles in. Home Depot apparently sells a version: Plasti Dip. The web site says you can paint it on and lists wood as something it sticks to. I'll get something. GK, your way is best I think, as it will stabilize the front of the box and keep it from rattling. But then I'd have those dang blocks glued to the sole if I remove the thing. Since I can always add that I think I'll try it without 'em first.

Today I mean to draw a graphite bottom line across the spray rail so I can get ready to cover it with the graphite resin and paint primer above it that I sanded off. Actually, the whole outside hull needs to be sanded and given one more coat of primer. I've been putting that off but it's nagging at me. That primer is like concrete, been there over a year, so I need to hit it with, what 180, 220 grit? I should look that up. Also, my seats came and I can fool with the seat boxes. To be high enough to sit and see over the cabin means they'll need a foot rest. To speed things up a bit I ordered these folding brackets for that:
http://www.iboats.com/Garelick-Footrest ... w_id.38726
I ordered just the brackets, not the completed foot rests (they're too wide). It's a great day here this morning, sunny, with a high of 64 predicted.

Hopin' for a little progress today Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:56 am
by Spokaloo
I put the same footrests in Tailgunner, and just ordered the brackets like you did. I have a buddy that supplies me with free teak offcuts, which I cut up and made into footrests in those brackets. Give a big backing to them and you'll be happy as a clam.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:19 pm
by Dougster
Well, good coincidence, same parts! What is a "good backing"? Something solid to screw them into I'd guess. They'll go into the seatbox, with a backing plate behind them. Guess that's it. I did get the spray rails marked to the graphite bottom/water line done. Also got the seat mounted to a mock up seatbox to judge positioning and height. Got SWMBO in the seat with mock up footrest for approval. Also finished the 23 dang holes in the nose for all the anchor hardware and pulpit holes finally drilled and filled. Then about an hour ago, I go down to check on the the fills and how they're setting up, and realize 6 of the holes are drilled to size, not overdrilled. Gotta drill 'em bigger and refill :roll: It's a pita too. They're a blind one armed reach to cover the bottom with packing tape, which works only about half the time. The other half is a dripping, thickened epoxy mess running through the inadequately taped bottom of the hole. I know this from several days experience. It's got me mad, though, so I'll get it tomorrow.

Too dumb to build a boat but gonna anyway Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:02 am
by gk108
For those hard to reach holes, duct tape is a better choice than packing tape. It tends to stick better on the uneven surface. I usually use packing tape when I need the epoxy to release from the top, shiny side and duct tape when I need it to release from the adhesive side. :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:11 am
by Dougster
I have wondered about that, so I'll give it a try this morning. Duct tape on the bottom. It's a blind, one arm reach kinda thing.

Got some duct tape Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:23 pm
by Spokaloo
I backed the footrests up with fir 1x2 the full height of the seat box, from top to sole. That gives something solid to bolt into, and distributes the load across the entire box.

Bear in mind though, your's are footrests, mine were used for steps as well as footrests.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:16 pm
by Dougster
Gotcha Eric, and thanks. Thanks too to GK. The duct tape worked a trick. I punched six 3/4" holes through 2 1/2" of deck, anchor pulpit, and backing plate, with the center 3/8" of each one full of a useless woodflour/epoxy fill, then filled all six after sticking duct tape to the bottom. I played it safe and first put in just a little epoxy/flour mix, let that tighten up, then mixed more and filled 'em. Will redrill tomorrow. If anyone hears a shrill, keening sound from south Texas, that'd be me if I mess up again :lol:

Says it's tedious Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:39 am
by Daddy
I've heard that sound right here in Vermont :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:33 am
by Dougster
Well, it's been too long since I've posted, but I have made some progress. Much of it wasn't worthy of a pic, but I want to get updated here. I did find some 1" neoprene tape for the baitwell cover box, so I think that's gonna work well. All those holes in the bow for the cleats and anchor gear are done too. The seat boxes are done and faired, but I won't prime them till their glued to the sole. They're pretty simple looking:
Image

Then I spent a lot of time fairing and fussing with the consoles and finally got all the holes (40 8O ) drilled/filled and redrilled for the port lights. The cabin roof was next, but there was a problem. The two supporting fore/aft rails were a bit low, so I clamped two packing taped (so they wouldn't stick) boards on either side of 'em and made a channel to fill with thickened epoxy. A picture is easier than words.
Image

I filled that little top channel with epoxy/wood flour and that leveled it out fine. So, yesterday I glued down the cabin top, which felt like progress at last. I did it the way Daddy and Spokaloo suggested: dry fit with clamps, then take off clamps on one side, lift up and glue, clamp that and repeat on the other side. I was a bit nervous but it went well. Here's a pic.
Image

I used just about every clamp I had. Ended up scrambling around a bit and grabbing SHS clamps as well (i.e. tool box in pic). Then I policed around a bit, cleaning drips, and headed for the shower. Well, first I headed for the vinegar to get the epoxy off my beard and under my arm! Dang stuff, even being careful it sometimes finds a way.

Going down to take those clamps off this morning Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:36 am
by peter-curacao
Looks great Dougster 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:46 am
by Prarie Dog
Looks real nice, Dougster. :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:55 am
by Cracker Larry
Great progress, Doug 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:36 am
by wegcagle
Nice work 8) You've got a really cool build Dougster.

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:21 pm
by Spokaloo
The way you're building her, she's gonna last a hundred years...

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:07 pm
by Dougster
Thanks everyone, for taking time for the continued support. I'm sure you all know how helpful it is. Here's a pic of this morning's unveiling:
Image

She's pretty to me, and I do wish her a long life, though maybe not a century 8O I found only one significant drip I missed in the cabin and spent a nice 15 minutes in there with the scraper removing it. Got to fantasizing about sitting in there with a sandwich, anchored somewhere nice 8)

I have a question I think I know the answer to. Do I need to put a fillet on the port and starboard cabin top sides where they meet the sides? Here's a pic of the starboard side from inside the cabin:
Image

That joint (top to side) is glued to the 1/4" ply with a 3/4" or so cleat on the outside (giving the top a bit of overhang. A small quickfair fillet would be easiest, but I'm thinkin' it needs some of my EZ fillet for strength?

Enjoying spring in Texas Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:16 pm
by Aripeka Angler
That sure is nice looking work Doug :) Very impressive 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:30 pm
by peter-curacao
Real nice, I can see myself sit in that cabin singing :lol:

Show me the way to go home
I'm tired and I want to go to bed
I had a little drink about an hour ago
And it went right to my head (or it's gone straight up to my head)
Where ever I may roam
On land or sea or foam
You will always hear me singing this song
Show me the way to go home

Then hopefully catch a huge fish 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:39 pm
by wegcagle
Last time I heard that song was when I was watching Jaws :help: :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:52 pm
by chicagoross
Looks great, Dougster! The inside of the cabin looks too clean, though, I can see why you're wondering about the filet. All of my insides end up looking like your outside (fairing), that's really careful work to keep the wood looking that good. When you get to this stage of the build, there's a lot of time spent on details that aren't too photogenic, but glad to see youre still making progress!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:26 am
by Dougster
Thanks folks. Richard, you're kind, but the quality of my work, though I am happy and proud of it, doesn't approach yours. I do think, whatever the level of finish or what have you, if you're building your own boat, you're at the plate and swingin' the bat, sure not sittin' in the stands. 'Ross, I know what you mean. I found myself thinkin' about keeping the sides bright in the cabin, but I probably won't. The fillet just makes sense and the joint isn't too tight anyway, which doesn't look so good. So a fillet, prime, and paint I'm thinking. BTW, had to google those lyrics: cool old folk song :wink:

Says let's all keep building Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:46 pm
by Dougster
More head scratchin' now. I put the seat boxes in (dry fit) to look at things and I'm not sure I like it. Makes everything look so cluttered and tight. Also, they require some kind of foot rest 'cuz they have to be so tall to sit over the cabin. I have hinges to make foot rests, but the boxes are kinda narrow it will be a skimpy little rest, and only good when you're facing forward. A movable stool might be better.

Image
Image
Image

That box behind the seats is a cover for the big bait well. It's removable, just bolts to the false transom. I'll round off the edges and corners soon. I started wondering about this notion and want to know what folks think. Make a 4" or 5" tall mini seat box by cutting the top of those shown off. Glue/tape that down with opening enough to reach wrench in for through bolting a standard pedestal mount. Then use a pedestal on up to the seat. Now that'd put a lot more leverage on that little box glued to the sole, but with biax tape, seems like it'd be good. Or am I just making things hard.

:doh: Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:03 pm
by peter-curacao
I like the seat boxes, I think they are elegant and not bulky at all, which gives you more deck space, maybe you can put wider flippable foot rests on the consoles in front of you?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:21 pm
by Spokaloo
visually it might be full but I don't think you lose usable space. The bulk is from the chairs, and is a fact of life.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:32 pm
by Dougster
Yep, I'm glad you guys spoke up. I'm staying with the boxes. There's no way for a decent foot rest though. The front console panel won't work 'cuz there's a hatch there, and that still leaves nothing when the seat's turned around for fishing, sitting, goofing, etc. I fooled with it off and on for the last couple of hours and I believe I'll lop 3" off the bottom of the box. That'll be a decent compromise I think. Heck, I'll be standing when underway most of the time anyway. Thanks Eric and Peter, glad to have you guys around.

Takin' a saw to it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:45 pm
by peter-curacao
Dougster wrote: There's no way for a decent foot rest though. The front console panel won't work 'cuz there's a hatch there, and that still leaves nothing when the seat's turned around for fishing, sitting, goofing, etc.
how about bending a stainless steel pipe into a square and mount that around the seat box? kind of like in a bar stool
Or maybe you can fabricate something like this under your seat?
Image

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:19 pm
by chicagoross
I llike the seat boxes, look much better than a pedastal IMHO and give you a bit of storage. The tight cockpit is because of the livewell, not the seating. When seat is spun aft, do your feet reach the livesell for a stretched=out footrest? Check your hardware and/or baby toddler stores, those little plastic footstools you mentioned are molded in white, look pretty decent on a boat.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:45 pm
by Dougster
Peter I had thought of some wood thing around, but not metal. Gave it up as too much though. I like your idea, Ross, and thought about a little foot rest like that, but in the end I want my feet to touch all way 'round with no fuss. I'm goin' with the 3" compromise tomorrow. In fact I just set up the table saw and put the first box in it, but, given the vodka tonic happy hour and wine after, gave it a pass 'till tomorrow :lol: I think I'll still see a bit over the cabin and will stand when it matters. For long stretches at the helm there's always a cushion in the seat and Ross' little plastic foot rest notion. I'll sleep on it though.

After I cut it and try it and if I finally get happy, I hope I get going and fill/fair the little 6 oz. glass weave on the cabin top. Then the consoles need a little light glass (think I'll try 4 0z) for sun protection and it'll be time to fair the sole/consoles/cockpit sides so I can prime 'em. BTW, re the clever question can your feet prop up on the bait well, yes they can. I checked that out right away :lol: Another BTW, if I was starting over I'd nix the bought bait well and put a bench seat across the back with a home made bait tank in it. Wouldn't have been such a big tank!

Learnin' as he goes Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:35 pm
by Dougster
I cut off 3" of one seat box this morning and like it way better. It's perfect for me, but could go a couple inches shorter for the wife. She's says no, wants to sit up that high and no lower, so it's a go. I still need to patch that cut out on the front of the box a bit. No problem as I have the cut out pieces saved. Here the latest with the cut off piece next to it.

Image

I also put filler on the cabin roof. You gotta love workin' with that 6 oz stuff. Filling the weave is nothing.

Likes it easy Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:59 pm
by Spokaloo
Heck Doug, I'd leave the hole as it stands, glass it up tight to the sole, then open a spot on the back for two sided drainage, and leave it be.

Of course that's just one opinion.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:08 pm
by gstanfield
I agree. Leave the hole blended into the sole in the front and put a drain hole in the back. I think it looks good that way 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:59 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Sure are looking good over there! :D Ditto on the drain holes. I would leave both seat boxes the same helght, I think it looks better that way.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:53 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for the idea guys. I think it's a winner so I just cut the port seat box to match and drew in a shallow, curved drain hole on the back side for both of them. Here's to Eric, George, and John. BTW, have you started your build John? I keep looking for a thread and would love to check it out once you get started. I kinda lost the time line on your big day Eric, but it seems like either it's right soon or you're already a Dad. Wishin' you well.

Loves spring in Texas Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:08 pm
by Spokaloo
2 months today...

Image

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:58 pm
by Dougster
Wow!!! Too Cute. That pic, your big mitts next to those little tiny ones. Every picture tells a story don't it?

Happy for you Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:21 pm
by peter-curacao
great pic! knuckle bump anyone? So cool! 8) beautiful baby!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:58 pm
by Cracker Larry
Fantastic picture 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:07 am
by tobolamr
I love the hair, too. Great pic!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:05 pm
by Dougster
Been awhile since I've updated, but it's cuz I'm just slowly fairing the dang cockpit, and pics don't show much new. It's a pita but I may be over the hump. It was cool to open my thread and see Eric's last pic. It's the best pic of the thread for sure. What's that's baby's name Eric?

I had a character building time of sanding after my beloved Festool's power cord failed. That's the cord in on the bottom left Pic:
Image

You may just see the top side of the male contact in the cord melted/broke off. I had to dig it out of the receptacle with a sharp little screwdriver. The cord was always falling out, bugging me and I'd got to the point of looping it through the handle and duct taping it. Turns out I believe I had never properly seated it and locked it in. As it aged and the contacts degraded, heat set in and it failed. After ordering a new one I decided I could just hand sand the cockpit sides. One very long hour with a long board and quickly a much shorter board ( :lol: ) wore me to nothing and got almost nothing done. I gained great respect for pre-power sander boat builders. It's no wonder tough waterfront bars lead to fatal confrontations. You'd have to kill a guy who could do that all week to stop him 8O

Anyway, the new cord makes my Festool happy and me with it. So while I waited for the cord I started on the splash well. There's no talk of it in the plans, so I'd appreciate a little advice. Here's a pic with a piece of scrap in sitting on top of the future cleats. The rear edge (transom) is about 4" below the transom top while the front is around 2". Should it be lower?
Image

I appreciate any opinions. Tomorrow is more quickfair and sanding, but I'm wanting to finish fairing that cockpit so that's ok.

Loves the power sander Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:08 pm
by ericsil
Nice to see the care you are taking with the details. I applaud your working in that heat. Just remember that you have a motor clamping on to that transom, probably with a backing plate. Make sure the nuts will clear whatever cover you use. Also, you will need to get under that splash well from time to time. Make it removable or add a big hatch.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:53 pm
by chicagoross
Agreed, the angle looks good but I think it should be at least a few inches deeper overall - course that's just by looks. As long as there's room for themotor clamp and the top set of bolts, you should be good.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:58 pm
by Seadation
Hello Dougster,

That's a very nice boat you are building.

Like you, I would be lost with my power sander. You see, you need a SECOND Festool tool; like the DTS400 orbital finish sander. I used that a fair amount on my boat building...that way you will always have a spare cord! :wink: SWMBO will understand the necessity of that, right?

Anyway, you ask about the splash well. Whether 4" at the transom will be 'enough' depends upon how low your outboard powerhead hangs when tilted up. OTOH, if you are gonna mount your outboard on a bracket, then 4" will be fine cuz there's no motor to 'hit' it and interfere with the splash well. My Tohatsu had a PDF I could download from their website that showed the dimensions of the motor tilted, turned, etc so your could figure how much clearance you need around the motor itself.

Another possible concern would be the routing of your engine control cables, steering gear, and fuel line. If you will be bringing these through a boot on the side of the motor well, get the boot now and see if there is enough room on the side of the motor well for it to fit. You might be drilling a 4-5" hole there which would mean a 4" transom-to-splash well dimension will NOT be enough...your motor well would need to be 'deeper.' OTOH, if your motor 'boot' (and accompanying controls, cables, hoses) will be routed some other way (like directly through the transom to an outboard on a bracket) then your original motor well set up would be fine.

Thinking Dougsters on top of it,

/david

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:05 pm
by Cracker Larry
Yep Dougster, Ross and David both make excellent points. I'd drop it 2 inches at the transom and 1 inch at the motor well bulkhead.
You won't be having a bracket I think, and you need room to tilt the engine and for the cables not to bind when the engine is tilted.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:46 am
by Dougster
Thanks Larry, 'Ross, Eric, and Sea for the good advice. I rechecked where the motor bolts holes are and dang if you guys aren't right. Two more inches at the transom gives better clearance for sure. I believe I'll cut the cleats that way but not glue 'em in till I get the motor on. I would like the whole thing removable or at least a good big part of it 'cuz there's lots of stuff down there that'll need care. My limited experience with pumps, baitwell or bilge, is that they do work...sometimes :lol:

Seadation, oddly enough I found myself looking at the Festool 400 a couple of weeks ago. Now I'm wondering about the Festool 90 instead. Sanding cramped areas on your hands and knees makes you look for the easy out I guess. Eric, I guess you're up in Maine or about to be, and I'm hoping your making progress on your build 'Ross (love that thread). I guess we're all following the keys thread and know Larry's heading for the keys. Good fishing Larry. I was sorry to read about your wife's accident recently but glad to hear she's going. The other day my wife said to me "you should have gone" 8O Dang you gotta love that. God willin' and the creek don't rise, maybe I'll come and bring her too next year.

Thanking everyone Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:57 pm
by Spokaloo
Crosby says he's looking forward to your splash date!

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:47 pm
by Seadation
Dougster wrote: Now I'm wondering about the Festool 90 instead. Sanding cramped areas on your hands and knees makes you look for the easy out I guess.
Thanking everyone Dougster
Hello Dougster,

I can give a solid, without-reservation recommendation on the Rotex RO 90 (if that is the one you mean). It is more ca$h than the DTS 400 but a LOT more versatile. With the smaller 90 mm round discs you can really hog off material (almost 'grinder-style') when needed and the small triangular head it comes with lets you do detail finish sanding. You can finish sand with the round discs too. The compact size lets you do all of this in more cramp quarters than the larger machines. I used mine on the FS 14 and a set of 6 sculpted dining chairs. It's a really nice machine and lives up to the Festool reputation.

Power sanding is the way to go...

/david

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:00 pm
by chicagoross
You will have to get under there to tighten a nut, etc.; I have left a small (6") screw-in inspection plate in the motorwell for that purpose.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:47 pm
by Dougster
Well, that RO 90 may be on my Christmas list. And Eric, you tell Crosby old Dougster won't let him down. One way or the other, she'll launch. Crosby's one heck of a launch too, of course.

Living in the moment Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:53 pm
by Fred in Wisc
Don't overlook the DX93E either, it's great for all the little corners, nooks and crannies. Although it might not have the detachable cord, now that I think of it.

Although I must admit I'd really like to have that little Rotex, I just can't justify the $$.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:06 pm
by Dougster
Well I've put in a bunch of hours with not much to show in a pic, but here are a couple. The seat boxes are in, cockpit is pretty much faired, and today I put three coats of primer on it. I got real sick of hand sanding down on my knees. Lord I didn'thave a clue how hard the cockpits are to fair 8O Nothin' but stoop labor with inside and outside corners all over.

Image

Image

Of course putting on the primer today showed all kinds of pinholes and various doobies that need attention. It was kind of discouraging at first but I'll fool with 'em till I get a belly full and say good 'nuff. I used mostly quickfair with some blended filler and marinepoxy in the fairing, and I will say the quickfair sands lots easier to me. I struggled so much with the primer today I realized I'll have to break up the cockpit to put on the Sterling. Stooping and fooling around in there for an hour and a quarter found me stepping on/leaning on freshly covered areas, and my roll and tip skills are trivial. By the third coat I started getting a little more consistent with tipping toward the wet edge instead of the other way around, but boy I bet I make a mess of my first Sterling efforts. For now, I gotta fool with the goobies and pinholes :roll:

I have one question I can't find answered. I know you sand the primer to 320 before Sterling and I know you want the primer good and cured (week or two) before applying the Sterling. What I don't see addressed is how long after the primer is sanded to 320 can you wait before putting on the Sterling? If I sand t0 320 and don't get around to applying the Sterling for a month or two must I re-sand to 320, or once keyed to 320, always keyed?

Got tired of that sandpaper Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:02 am
by robbiro
Build on Dougster, she's really taking shape :!:

Keep on Buildin'

Robbie

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:43 am
by ks8
Does the sterling have some sort of solvent wash prior to paint? If so, I'm thinking a good vacuum with a soft brush attachment, and then whatever normal primer prep they specify should do it, but I imagine it is wise to degrease with something Sterling recommends, after letting it sit that long, unless it is hermetically sealed in a mayonaise jar on the porch of Funk and Wagnalls, and even then, the primer might have oozed something that will want that final degrease.

Finishing the painting of my seats, after having sand prepped some of the primer years :!: ago, I am hitting those spots lightly with the sandpaper again. There's been fish slime and mud and who knows what ground into those old scratches (never eat KFC on a small boat). Time to cut new ones I think. That said... I defer to the folks that have used the Sterling... :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:03 pm
by ericsil
That boat is really looking good. I hope I can get down from Austin and see it sometime this fall.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:12 pm
by Dougster
Eric, come any time, I'd love a consult with another builder. I pretty much went backward today with the fairing. There are way too many pinholes and such so I dabbed some quickfair on spots around the consoles. Sanding them this afternoon was disheartening (and HOT 8O ). To get the quickfair sanded down I couldn't help but sand off all the surrounding primer. I did try a couple of spots with some product I bought online: Sikkons Kombe putty, which dries in an hour and sands right off. Seems way better for pinholes, but not for dings that are any bigger. The cockpit is a challenge, but when I get it right I'll crest a hill.

Hopin' the grass gets greener Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:22 pm
by Cracker Larry
She's looking great Dougster, and it's all downhill from here 8) You've got her whipped now.

That heat is supposed to get here tomorrow and spend a few days. Not looking forward to it, it's been real pleasant lately except for the rain, which ain't that bad either.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:58 am
by Dougster
Thanks for the support Larry, it's a comfort to have you take a gander now and then. 'Course downhill for you may still be something of a slog for me, but still, one foot in front of the other. BTW, you guys ever hear the backpackers prayer? "You pick 'em up Lord, and I'll put 'em down".

Tips his hat Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:09 pm
by chicagoross
Awesome, Dougster! Hang in there, it sure seems to go slow at this point of the build! Like you said, lots and lots of inside curves to sand... :(

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:39 pm
by Dougster
In between sanding/fairing the console, which is finally about done, I finished the spashwell. Here it is dry fit.

Image

I won't glue it down till I get the motor and make sure I figured right for the motor bolts and such. Anyway, can I just glue it down like that on the cleats and walk away or do folks think it needs tape too? I'd rather not tape it 'cuz then I gotta fair that. I have given some thought to screwing it down instead of permanently gluing it, so the whole thing could be removed for maintenance. Oh yeah, and I have a cheapo hatch on order to put in it for quick access too. So

1) If glued does it need tape?
2) Does anyone just use screws and no epoxy?
3) How about holes in the bottom of it to let it drain straight down into the bilge instead of having to drill through the transom?

Can't imagine how I would have gotten this far without the forum. Heck, all this time building and I'm still feeling around in the dark half the time :oops:

Says gonna splash her one day though Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:07 pm
by Mad Dog
Dougster wrote:3) How about holes in the bottom of it to let it drain straight down into the bilge instead of having to drill through the transom?
I wouldn't do that. The splash well is going to get a lot of water in it. You want it going right back out not into the bilge.

On another note, I've been watching Craigslist for portable A/C units. I would get a lot more done in my garage if it were 20 degrees cooler. I'm thinking you might feel about the way I do. :D

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:41 pm
by Dougster
I did a rough calculation on how much water that splashwell will hold, and it's under 6 gallons, so only 40 lbs. That's why I though I could get away with dropping it down to the bilge. There are two 2000gph pumps down there. Still, I know a drain out the transom is more traditional. I do have an old combo ac/heat window unit I put in the wall of my shop and God bless it! It's not enough to really cool the whole shop and I have thought to put another little one in on the opposite side. Trouble is, when I really want it is when I'm sanding, and I don't like to sand in there when I'm closed up, even with the mask on. So I open things up in the morning and try to sand then. Thing is, after sanding I spread a little quickfair and find myself down there in the heat in the afternoon to sand again. I only do an hour in the afternoon if I sand. It's all I can handle 8O And the dang quickfair goes off pretty quick too. BTW, I dunno how many folks are gonna show at Port A for the meet, but Shirley and I are looking forward to seeing you and your wife again.

Says it'll cool off in a couple of months Dougster 8O

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:10 pm
by Cracker Larry
I'm kind of looking forward to October myself this year, and I usually like it hot. But dang, not this hot :!: They said we were going to get a cool spell, so far it's dropped down to 101.

Drain that splash well straight out the transom, not into the bilge. I'd use 2 - 1 1/4" drain tubes. Even though it only holds 6 gallons, if water is continuously coming in, it needs to continuously run out. Mine probably holds less than 6 gallons and it has 2 drains that I never plug. I can back straight into 2' waves ( I do this fishing sometimes) and the water runs out as fast as it comes in. The pumps never even see that water. Save them for more important stuff than transom splash. Pumps are for water that you can't otherwise get rid of with gravity.

Also, if my bait tank overflow gets stopped up, which it sometimes does, the tank overflows into the splash well and drains out the drain tubes. If it drained to the bilge, then I'd be pumping water into the boat with the bait pump and pumping it out with the bilge pump. Obviously not ideal, considering that sometimes I leave the bait pump running all night.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:52 pm
by Mad Dog
Dougster wrote:I do have an old combo ac/heat window unit I put in the wall of my shop and God bless it! It's not enough to really cool the whole shop and I have thought to put another little one in on the opposite side. Trouble is, when I really want it is when I'm sanding, and I don't like to sand in there when I'm closed up, even with the mask on.
I agree with the open door policy. But in this heat I would consider running a vacuum to pull the dust and run the heck out of the A/C.
Dougster wrote:BTW, I dunno how many folks are gonna show at Port A for the meet, but Shirley and I are looking forward to seeing you and your wife again.
I've got my reservation so unless there is some act of God we'll be there. Definitely looking forward to a reunion. BTW, I started a post to get the planning started. :D

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:27 pm
by Fonda@kauai
I haven't been around much, man you've been busy! Looks really sweet. I wish I was that far along... :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:05 am
by Spokaloo
Larry, mine's completely open, I never added the splashwell.

There's a little 600gph pump in there, and it RARELY runs, even on days when we are getting tons of wake surfing traffic (7000+lb water ballasted boats that throw a 3-4 foot tall surfing wave. Yes 4 feet, measured by me at 6'3, they are about rib high when I'm on the board). I have the 20" transom, and to be completely frank, even with big swamping sized waves like that, nothing comes in over the transom. My experience would say you'd be fine draining into the bottom of that well, or excluding the panel altogether.

We use the space as fender and anchor storage, and as I sit here typing that, it has two 18" red round fenders (like you see on commercial boats) and two 24" long yacht style fenders.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:19 am
by Cracker Larry
Hope you don't regret it one day. Things only have to go wrong once.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:26 am
by Spokaloo
The luxury of it the way it is CL is that it will only hold what that small well can hold. From transom to bilge panel is only 20" vertically and the width of the stringers. That's comparable weight wise to a bait tank. If you fill it, no biggie, the F frame forward of it is full height, and if you get water over that, you've got bigger fish to fry (better hope those scuppers are big enough). It really is similar in behavior to a standard splashwell on a regular hull, just a little deeper.

I would venture that it holds less than 40 gallons. That's one fat guy in the back.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:34 pm
by Fred in Wisc
Dougster, for hand sanding with the doors shut give this a try: Take the hose off your Festool vac, set it up near where you are sanding, and let it run. Pulls the dust right out of the air. Works well for me in the basement, doesn't get all the dust but it keeps the air a lot clearer of particulates. Just like a shop air filter, but portable.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:46 pm
by Dougster
Hey guys thanks for the tips. I'm out of pocket, in Colorado doing some hiking and not much internet reception. Cool weather, thin air, good coffee. Hands are itchin' to get back to Nina though. I hear you about that splashwell Eric, and think now if I put that little cover in it I'll make it removable. I'd say 40 gallons is all it could hold too. I've used the Vac that way a time or two Fred, but kinda forgot about it.

Says it's not all good, but there's plenty is Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:44 pm
by Cracker Larry
I'd say 40 gallons is all it could hold too.
Yeah, 40 gallons right on the transom only weighs 320 pounds.
That's one fat guy in the back.


That's a mighty fat guy 8O The problem is when that happens, in about 15-20 seconds there will be another one joining him, and in another 20 seconds another one, and so on until you get into calmer waters. If you can't drain one of those fat men out the boat before the next one jumps in, and the next, then you are going down. Pumps can't do it alone unless you can pump about 20,000 gallons an hour
even on days when we are getting tons of wake surfing traffic (7000+lb water ballasted boats that throw a 3-4 foot tall surfing wave. Yes 4 feet, measured by me at 6'3,
Jeez, I ain't talking about surviving 4 foot boat wakes :lol: I'm talking about surviving in the ocean :doh: A 4' boat wake ain't crap. We fished all weekend in 6-8 seas that were less than a boat length apart. We were taking on 100 gallons with every wave and shed it before the next wave hit. When you are getting about 4 waves a minute, that's 400 gallons a minute or 24,000 gallons an hour. That's 192,000 pounds of water an hour. We did that for 14 hours and kept on fishing. Only used the pumps to check the bilge. A 600 gph pump is a joke.
There's a little 600gph pump in there, and it RARELY runs, even on days when we are getting tons of wake surfing traffic
My bait pump is bigger than than :lol: In a boat the size of Doug's I'd have at least 2 bilge pumps, 2000 or better each. Plus big drains. Richards boat has 3 big pumps, which we never needed, and they are all larger than his bait well pump which is a 1200 gph :wink:

Dougster, I've been sticking with you for years and always tried to steer you right. I ain't wanting to argue with anyone, but I'd put some drains in that splash well, a couple of big ones, if you ever intend to encounter waves larger and more prolonged than a boat wake :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:01 pm
by Steven
Not to mention the spash well deck is structural. I don't believe you can remove them entirely.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:56 pm
by Cracker Larry
Dougster, I've got one more thing to say about this and then I'll shut up.

By my recollection you have been working on your boat for 5 years, 5 months and 15 days. In 4 minutes it will be 16 days :lol: You've come a long ways, done it all right, and made a fine job of it all the way. Don't stop now. Make that transom safe and seaworthy, it's the most vulnerable part of any boat. It will take you less than $50 and 5 days to make that splash well right. You may never need it, but then again you might. One never knows what the future may bring :wink: A couple of weeks ago in the Keys we encountered a boat wake from a large ship that were over 20' high, and that was on top of the 4' waves we were fishing in, 30 miles offshore in our OD18. The water came in, the water ran out, we didn't run the pumps and Mrs. Cracker wasn't even scared, but for a moment :D There are many times that I back down into big waves trying to position myself to fish, or chasing fish and the water pours in over the transom. I aint just blowing smoke here, ask JoeH, or Stickystuff, or Topwaterjohn, or Wecagle, or Aripeka Angler, or Capeman. They have all seen me back down hard into waves with water pouring over the transom. It runs in, it runs out. No problem. Relying on a 600 gph pump, that's ridiculous 8O Big problem, out of the question, it would need 6,000 to begin to keep up. Build it to go anywhere. Even if you never take it beyond boat wakes, the next owner might.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:58 pm
by Mad Dog
Dougster, I need you to send me an email with at return address. I want to save you some money on your room at Bay Tree. :D Just click my email button to the right. Thanks!

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:18 pm
by Dougster
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Glad to know folks care about this stuff 8) Heck Larry, I'd do it just on the strength of that one post alone, never mind the cup holder you sent me that is on board now and waiting for the right size hole saw for the install :D Truth is, finishing up the splash well won't cost me a nickel. The board is cut to fit and 4 0z glass is on it. UPS delivered the big access hatch to fit in it the day before I left, so all I gotta do is put in the hatch and install the piece. Oh yeah, and a pair of 2000 gph rule pumps are sitting in there ready to be glued down. She'll fish the gulf and she'll be ready. Sure has been good to have guys like Larry, Eric, and too many more to list along for this trip. In a perfect world, they'd catch a ride in her some day.

Says praise the Lord and pass the sandpaper Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:08 pm
by Mad Dog
[quote="Dougster]Says praise the Lord and pass the sandpaper Dougster[/quote]

Now that one made me laugh! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't be surprised if you hear that coming back at you Doug.

MD :wink:

PS Sent you and Email message.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:53 pm
by Cracker Larry
]Says praise the Lord and pass the sandpaper Dougster
Amen :D

I've got a 1 1/4" drain tube flaring tool that I'd be glad to loan you :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:54 pm
by Spokaloo
As you've said in the past Larry, the ocean's the same everywhere in the world. I've been out in shitty weather just like you have. I've had water in the boat, just like you. I also built the boat and know how much water fits in that hole, and how hard it is to get anything to slop into it.

Doug's idea is to make that panel removable, and it will still do the job of shedding water very well as he has it in his head, plus he gains a big, honkin piece of storage space 4 feet forward of the transom. Also, his bait tank is about the same weight as the water that could potentially fill the well if the worst case happened.

Not an argument, just thought it was funny that you had to put an itemized list of what you perceived as wrongdoing (yes, in my ocean boat, 3 bilge pumps, none smaller than 1250gph) on my part.

Doug, it'll be a good boat no matter how you build it, you've done a very good job for a first project, and she will be a first rate boat when she's done. I can't wait to see the photos of your huge smile as she cruises off along the Gulf...

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:43 pm
by Dougster
Hey Eric, you're right on how I intend to make the panel removable. I'll have it in when I go to the gulf, but can pull it when I run over to one of our local lakes. I know well your Nina lives in your lake and your (now sold as I remember) salt water boat was a horse of a different color.

Headed back to Texas tomorrow Dougster :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:03 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Just wanted to see how you're doing over there...
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:09 am
by Dougster
John, I'm back at work but still have long weekends. The last two days I've had a dang cold and have been lying around coughin' my entrails up. I did manage two sanding periods yesterday at about an hour each, but coughing in that 3M mask is the pits. I have no progress to show cuz I'm just smoothing the topsides. I keep putting on a tablespoon or so of Quickfair, then sanding it off :roll: . The cockpit sides and consoles are painted with Sterling though. I'm about ready to put on another coat of primer, look for obvious pinholes and call the topsides ready for paint. Before I paint, though, I need to cut a hole in the cabin roof and fit the hatch. Then the plan is to paint everything 'cuz I want that finished. After that, it's wire and rigging. Gimme a hollar and come check it out one weekend. Where are you with your build start?

Grateful for the cooler weather Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:53 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Still back and forth between the FL14 and GV13, SWMBO wants a go fast boat and I prefer life in the slow lane (I think you mentioned that awhile back in this thread). If you're still off on Fridays maybe we can get together in the next couple weeks.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:10 pm
by Dougster
Yep, I'm still off on fridays :D Still coughin' and blowin' from this dang chest cold too, but on the mend. UPS just sent me a pair of teak cabin hand rails that need to be drilled and installed. Kinda tricky 'cuz there's not much headroom and I don't want my head bangin' on bolt ends. Gimme a holler when you wanna come by.

Waitin' on the weekend Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:21 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Next Friday (10-12-12) would work for me, let me know what you think.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:32 pm
by Dougster
John that'd be great. Come on over that morning and I promise to put all the sandpaper away :D

Be seein' you Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:48 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
I can not make it this Friday, too many things at work :( . Maybe next week. I'll keep in touch.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:31 pm
by Dougster
That's OK, John, I'll pull the sandpaper back out and have a private party. Truth is, I'm about through with the sanding now. Dunno for sure about next Friday, since I have a gig at the Redbud in Blanco the next day. My guitar partner and I may rehearse friday (we've been laying off lately and gotten rusty). Why not bring Bonny that next Sat. night (20th) to big Blanco town for a burger and brew? I need all the help in the audience I can get :lol:

See ya when it works Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:10 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
We will see you on the 20th, hope we can stay up that late on a Saturday night! :lol: You might need some of that sandpaper for the rusty guitar...
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:46 pm
by ericsil
Sounds like a party that can't be missed. I'll see if I can talk my SWMBO into a little drive next Saturday.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:25 pm
by Dougster
Dang guys, that'd be great. Having Bateau folks on my team is a win/win situation for sure. The Redbud is on the square in Blanco and serves good burgers, fish tacos, and the local brewed beer. Family friendly and just plain friendly, the place is a here and now piece of Americana. It's in what used to be the old town hardware store, with rain records by the month put up on the wall, going back many decades. The action starts around 6:30 and by 9:30 they start rollin' up the sidewalks. Be great to have you in my corner.

Gonna fool with the cabin top hand rails tomorrow Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:12 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Bonnie & I will see you Saturday around 6:30ish, might even help you roll up the sidewalks! 8O :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:19 am
by Uncle D
Doug, you guys have a public airport in or near Blanco. I did a quick look but didn't see anything?? :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:43 pm
by Dougster
:lol: Nah Don, but I've seen an ultralight putzing over a cow field. I think the closest thing is San Antonio airport, about an hour away. It'd be a schlepp to see an old beat up picker like me. Still, the finger's healed up from the MadDog adventure and you could crash here. Oops, I mean stay here 8O

Might have to tune that dang guitar Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:09 am
by Uncle D
Got a itch for that Blanco brew. One of these weekends...
We have the big Jazz festival this weekend in CC we do every year. 3 pavilions, local vendors, free admission and parking. Looks like the weather is going to cooperate. :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:47 pm
by Dougster
Blanco Brew: I'll bring you a mixed 6 next builder's meet :wink: Sure dang hope my Nina's ready then. I'm movin' like a snail; better post the latest this weekend. I takes me awhile to ponder it through, go 'head and mess it up anyway, then do it right. There's probably better ways, but oh well.

Says whatever it takes Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:37 pm
by Uncle D
Dougster wrote:takes me awhile to ponder it through, go 'head and mess it up anyway, then do it right.
Must be the Blanco Brew :lol: :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:22 pm
by ericsil
Well, don't drink all the Blanco brew. The Ms and I will be down along with a couple of friends.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:06 am
by Dougster
Good deal Eric, I look forward to seeing you. There'll be a little brew left, I'm thinkin'. It's very neat that you and John are coming and I appreciate it.

Definitely gonna tune his guitar Dougster :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:41 pm
by Dougster
Well, it's been too long since I posted and I wish I had more to report. But here I am. I ordered some teak hand rails for the cabin top. They don't come drilled so here is my effort. A sample butt block is sitting there nearby, design copied from a Cracker Larry post (thanks to Larry).
Image

The nut goes there on top cuz I had to minimize the extension below in the cabin. There's scant room and bangin' the head on a bolt is a no go. Here's a pic of Sterling Matterhorn White on the cockpit sides and consoles. Note: the coaming is still only in primer.
Image

Now here's the cabin top.

Image

It doesn't show in the above cabin top pic, but there is a thumb size smudge in the middle of the top that is irritating. I hate to put another coat of paint on for that little bit. I mean, it's far from perfect, anyway. That Sterling shows EVERY little waver and dimple 8O Still, it's rock hard and good looking stuff and I like it. Is there a way to buff out that smudge a bit without making a mess?

Still in the saddle Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:19 pm
by Prarie Dog
Looks nice Dougster, After it sits for a week or so you might try some 1000 grit wet or dry and wet sand it a bit. I doubt it would make it worse. I would polish it a bit and wash it off and look at it. If it isn't improving then decide if you want to paint it again.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:59 am
by Dougster
That seems like a plan, thanks 'Dog. Painting is a black art to me and that Sterling had me spooked at first. Now I'm not so afraid of it. This last coat on the top was hard to put on 'cuz the only brush I had left hadn't been cleaned well enough (I wonder who did a poor job of that :roll: ) That made for real obvious brush marks and I was sure I'd be doing it over at the time. Then several hours later it had flowed nicely and looked OK, so it can be forgiving I guess.

Movin' slow as the tide Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:04 pm
by Dougster
I can't believe how long it took me but I did finish the painting. I swore I wouldn't post 'till I did and finally, two days ago, I finished. Sterling is truly a great product. It's really pretty forgiving and a little goes a long way. I used slightly less than two quarts for this. Here she is taped and nearing the finish line.
Image

Now here's a few pics of the finished job. Matterhorn White and Ice Blue Sterling with Blue Kiwigrip
Image
Image
Image

Like folks say, the Sterling shows all the boo boos and can't make up for fairing issues, but despite those, I'm still happy. The stuff is wonderfully hard, just like a car's paint. And the Kiwigrip is dead easy, like folks say. Looks like it may be hard to keep clean, but maybe not. Next is baitwell plumbing, electrical, rigging, fix my by now old, warped trailer bunks, and Splash!

Still in the game Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:31 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Doug, I can't see any boo boo's. That is a mighty fine looking paint job sir 8) Great work :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:38 pm
by Cracker Larry
That's sweet Doug 8) You are almost there.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:25 pm
by AtTheBrink
Great job Dougster! You are sure to have her ready in time for the Meet this summer! She should be broke in and all the kinks worked too. Can't wait to see her live and in person! And maybe even go for a ride! :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:43 am
by chicagoross
Looks great, Dougster! Glad you can start posting again! :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:05 am
by topwater
Very nice :!: Cant wait to see a pic outside in the daylight .

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:07 am
by peter-curacao
That looks great 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:54 am
by Hope2float
Very nice, she looks great. I would be clam happy if I were at that point. She should hit the water soon and good luck
Dave

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:35 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Nina looks fantastic! :D Love the paint, she will be ready for the splash in no time! If you need help with the trailer bunks (or anything else), give me a shout.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:48 pm
by tech_support
finish line is in sight. Paint look great :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:52 pm
by pee wee
It's looking good, all coming together now. Here's a quote from somebody a few years back- "Still, stubborn will get me there I think." If you haven't guessed, that was you and you were right!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:04 pm
by Uncle D
That's awesome Doug. Paint and Kiwi-Grip look's real good Amigo. Looking forward to POC.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:29 pm
by Dougster
Well, it has taken a little stubborn to get this far for sure, but it's taken a lot of help from all you folks on this forum too. Thanks for all the encouragement. I'll be posting some pretty dumb questions about the electrical wiring pretty soon, but this is the place to get smart. John, any weekend or friday is good for me for you to come over and take a gander and advice with the trailer would be great. She looks almost finished but there's a world of work left doing things that are new to me. Still that's half the fun of the thing, learning new stuff.

Don, you'll probably splash before me. How about winner buys the first 6 pack? Hey CLarry, your gifted cup holder is stashed there out of site in the port console, waiting for me to find just the right spot :D That first cuppa will be some milestone! BTW, Chicago, I've been following your build closely and love the look of her. I know from where I stand now with the LB22 how huge that build is for one guy 8O Same goes for your CS 25 Peter. That work you do is just amazing to me.

This weekend I'll get to do something besides fool with painting :D Oddly enough, I got to where I kinda enjoyed it after awhile.

Says you gotta love that Sterling and Kiwigrip Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:31 am
by chicagoross
She looks almost finished but there's a world of work left doing things that are new to me
I'll get to do something besides fool with painting
Don't worry, Dougster! You're to the point where everyone will be trying to schedule their ride, but there's still plenty to be done! :D For me on the HMD the wiring and rigging was a fairly long process. Not that I ever felt I didn't know what to do, but definitely time consuming. Even more so if you can make it pretty like Larry and a few others here!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:27 am
by Uncle D
Dougster wrote:Don, you'll probably splash before me. How about winner buys the first 6 pack?
I truly hope so Doug. Not only the six pack but a ride too. :D ( That probably went without saying :wink: )

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:03 pm
by Dougster
Yep, we'll make it happen, just a question of when. Goes without saying...

Just sayin' Dougster :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:07 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Blew a kiss to Nina on our way by today (going up 281), she blushed a little but she's not as shy as she used to be. :wink: Headed back home on Friday, maybe I'll catch up with then (not sure what time. I will call and see if you're around). If not, sometime soon for sure.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:47 pm
by Dougster
That's good John. I'm off the land line now, so use my cell. Two one zero.
four fifteen, eleven eighty-three. I'm off work for the next ten days so life is good.

Gonna fix that trailer Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:12 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Not gonna make it today, we came back yesterday (too cold) :( . We'll figure sometime in the next week. Ditto on the landline, my cell - eight-thirty, two-twentyone, eightyfive, seventyseven.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:10 pm
by Dougster
I got side tracked off the electrical to fool with my trailer. I bought mine along with DaveTx 2 or 3 years ago 8O and it sat in the weather since then. It's aluminum and is fine, very adjustable, but of course the bunk carpeting has rotted and needs replacing. Also two of the bunks are warped and probably need replacing. I struggled half a day getting one bunk off (all over one dang frozen bolt that surrendered in the end). Here's some pics of what I'm dealing with.

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There's the bunks. The right one is off. The set up is two inside flat bunks and two outside vertical bunks. The flat bunks are in good shape except for needing new carpet.

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Now here's the left vertical bunk I took off.

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That dang thing is a ten foot long 4 by 6 :!: Seems dang big to me for a bunk, but anyway you can see it warped badly right at a knot. I need to check more but I think where it sits on the hull is pretty straight so I may need to replace it.

Here's some template of frames B, C, D, and E hooked up with correctly spaced scrap to simulate the hull bottom on the trailer.

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So, my question is really what wood to use to replace the vertical bunks? I could sister two 2 by 6's, or stay with 4 by 6's. Or is 4 by 6 an overkill? Also, I wonder where the stringers should sit. On the horizontal bunks with the vertical bunks outside the stringers? The whole setup is easily adjusted so no problem there. On wood to use, I would guess no treated stuff as it warps so bad? Doug fir? Cedar?

Always learning something new Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:43 pm
by jorgepease
That warped piece of wood you show looks like a 2x6

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:01 pm
by AtTheBrink
I know what you mean when talking about warped treated lumber! That green stuff is garbage! For your replacement look for Yellawood brand treated lumber. I know it is sold at McCoy's and other places carry it I am sure but I know McCoy's is a dealer. It is treated with different stuff and the quality is 1000X better than typical treated lumber, not much if any difference in price. If it were mine, I would glue and screw two 2ร—6's together to replace that 4ร—6. I would.also go ahead and replace to other one too so they match, but that is just me. By laminating the 2ร—6's you will get a stronger beam that is less likely to warp. Good luck!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:30 pm
by sds
It looks like the warp is more of a v than a curve? You could probably cut the existing 4x6 where it bends, square the two cut ends so it lays straight, create a 2x lap of 2-3 feet on each piece, and scab in a 2x6 w/ screws and epoxy. Maybe put a galvanized plate on the other side. Or just lap the 4x6 itself, if you have some spare length.

The advantage being manyfold: save money, save trees, save space in the landfill, and the fact that that 4x6 has probably warped as much as it ever will, where with new stock, who knows what shape it will be a few years from now, and finally, such an approach denotes character.

Yes, I am a frugal son of a gun. Your build is looking great dougster.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:18 pm
by jorgepease
Image

Not a 4 x6 even by nominal measures. 2 - 2x6's lag bolted together will be very stronge.

Maybe another idea would be to just use one 2x6 vertical and cap it with another 2x6 (stiff back) then you get support in both directions but that all depends on the span. That way you have an extra 1.75 inches for your boat to ride on.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:44 pm
by Dougster
Well some ideas are starting. Trust me Jorge, it's 4 by, but of course that's not nominal. By the tape it's more like 3 1/2". I like the sister in some stuff idea and make it work thing, but will have a hard time cutting the things straight, as my skill saw cut's only 2" nominal and it's too dang heavy for the table saw. Still, where there's a will there's a way. I like the idea that it's sure 'nuff done warping. Also like the sister idea. What about the whole 4 by thing. Is that normal for bunks?

Feeling a way forward Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:26 pm
by Mad Dog
Doug, the boat is really looking good there sir! :D

My opinion on the trailer bunks, for what it is worth, I don't like those vertical bunk set ups. It seems that to make them do their job you have to conture them to your hull, unlike the flat bunks that easily flex to fit the shape of the hull. Can you replace the vertical bunks with flat ones? Based on the pics the vertical mounts are bolt on, so all you would need is two sets of bolsters like the middle two. My trailer has four flat bunks and I really like the way the boat rides and self centers on the the trailer.

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:27 am
by Dougster
Charles, that really looks like a good idea to me. I suppose the two inside bunks are under the stringers, with the outside bunks port and starboard of the stringers? I'd rather the outside bunks be under the stringers with the inside ones close to the keel, which in Nina is a 9" piece of tapered Fur that would then be guided by those two fairly narrowly spaced inside bunks when driving on to the trailer. I worry that would not be enough side to side support though.

Starting to see a path forward Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:51 pm
by Dougster
Spent 3 hours yesterday fooling around with a long piece of scrap luan, trying to cut a curve to fit the hull around where the side bunk would hit. I chased the curve mostly but ended up with a maybe, then decided against it in favor of MadDogs horizontal bunk. Then began the search for suitable bunk bracket fittings in aluminum. It's a pita. I went to one trailer place (Magnum) and they're useless. I'm finding some of it on line, though a piece or two may be stainless. It seems like it oughta be easier, but there it is. The nearest Home Depot carries Yellawood so that's easy. Meanwhile, on a fun note, here's progress on the boatport. I'm buying one of those prefab carport deals, 22' by 30'. I started with 8 yards of crushed granite for the base. Then good neighbor Fred came over with his tractor, and saved me breaking my back with a shovel:

Image

Image

Image

Thankin' Fred Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:44 pm
by Mad Dog
Doug, did you try Coastline Trailers in Seadrift? http://www.coastlinetrailermfg.com/contactus.htm They may have the parts you need or tell you where to find them.


MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:44 pm
by Uncle D
Doug, we have a local guy here in CC if you can't get what you need. I'll be happy to help if I can. Don

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:42 pm
by Dougster
Hey guys thanks for the help. I found it all on line and just ordered it for a tiny fortune :roll: Started getting antsy over walking away from the massive 4' by 6' on edge but reminded myself these guys are lighter than comparable production boats. So....

Pulled the trigger Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:41 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Nina's looking good over there! I am off next Friday (26th) if you need a hand with anything.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:40 am
by Dougster
John, Friday would be great. One thing for sure I'd appreciate is a another hand bedding some of the hardware. She's all painted now and you can check out how the Sterling looks.

Be seein' you friday Dougster :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:38 pm
by Dougster
Oops, spoke too soon. It's Shirley's birthday weekend and hangin' out with guys is not really on the agenda. Maybe the next Friday?

Likes a happy home Dougster :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:58 pm
by Uncle D
Julie and I say "HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHIRLEY!!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:15 pm
by JohnC
Ditto on the Happy Birthday Shirley :D Maybe next Friday...
John & Bonnie

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:13 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
I am off this Friday (3rd) if that works for you.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:54 pm
by Dougster
Yep, works for me. Come over and have a look. I'll be there foolin' with her for sure. Got one more hole to drill/fill/re-drill in the transom (baitwell overflow) and then maybe bed some hardware and port lights.

Lookin' forward to it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:31 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
See you Friday around 9AM
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:27 pm
by Dougster
Good deal John!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:13 pm
by Dougster
I'll post a bit of progress and info on the butyl rubber tape I'm using for the ports and most hardware. Here's the transom with some holes drilled/filled/re-drilled:


Image

Now, some people drill only 4 holes for the motor, but I use the Dougster way: drill 8. First you drill 4 wrong, then fill 'em, and do it right :roll: I'd say it was irritating but I'm pretty used to me by now.

Here's a link to the tape I'm talking about and some pics
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/butyl_tape
Image

Image

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I notice the above pic shows I need a second piece of tape overlapping the first one, which was done on the top of the port. Hopefully I did that before I installed the light. But then, as I say, I pretty used to me now :lol:

Here's the finished look:

Image

The stuff is easy to use. It sticks to itself like anything, but not very much to fingers, plastic, or sterling paint. It cleans up easily, supposedly with no residue, so do overs are a snap. Well see. Next is getting the trailer bunks ready so I can get her mobile, take her to the dealer and have them pop the motor on. I'll start the wiring after that, then fool with the rigging a bit 'till I'm sick of it and take it back to the dealer to check things out and set up the motor.

Gotten used to himself Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:27 pm
by Cracker Larry
Now, some people drill only 4 holes for the motor, but I use the Dougster way: drill 8. First you drill 4 wrong, then fill 'em, and do it right :roll: I'd say it was irritating but I'm pretty used to me by now.
I'm laughing so hard I can't type :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Never leave us Dougster :!:

The boat looks great, except for that pink roof :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:49 pm
by Uncle D
I've been sayi'n it wrong all this time...I "Dougstered" it :lol: :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:12 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Nina looks Great!! :D It is hard to see in the pictures but the boat is actually white and light blue (the pink must a reflection from something). The tape is very easy to work with (even a "Southpaw" can do it :wink: ). If you need help with the trailer let me know, shorthanded at work right now but I can still slide over to Blanco to see Nina.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 11:11 am
by Dougster
Larry, either the pink is a "reflection of something" or I'm just dang secure with my masculinity :D I like the term "Dougstered", Don, it reflects a time honored way of learning something (do it wrong and then go, "Oh, Oops, Uh...OK, Now I see" :lol: There's been lots of that in my build, though CLarry, you've saved me some. John came over last week and we bedded some hardware with the butyl tape. We're both lefties and we still got it done! John, don't push yourself coming over to help with the trailer. I'll be fooling with it for a bit before the big crank her on and move her out day. Might be good not to "Dougster" that one :help:

Thankin' guys for staying on board Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 8:25 pm
by chicagoross
Nothing wrong with "Dougstering" it -- everything that was ever wrong or difficult on this build was made right before moving on! What's wrong with that? Really looking nice, Dougster!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:48 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Next time you're "Dougstering" around, don't forget that last bolt in the bow pulpit. Just in case SledDog 8) comes along and gives the anchor line a mighty pull... BTW, I know what the "pink" reflection is: you lit the candles on your cake! Happy Birthday Dougster! :D :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:18 pm
by Dougster
Thanks John and dang, you're right, I believe I have forgotten that last bolt! I did go buy one the right size, and I think it's sitting down there gettin' lost. I got caught up with the trailer last weekend. 'Bout busted myself straining with a little 12" crescent wrench on the trailer bolts 'tll I got to one I couldn't budge. I figured before I hurt something (like me), I'd stop and ponder it. First I went and bought some anti-seize goop to put on the bolt, then googled the problem. I then saw reference to "breaker bars" and pictures of one kind popped up: a wheel lug nut wrench :lol: Heck I had one sittin' there about 20' away the whole time. It fit the 3/4" bolts and I popped 12 loose in less than a minute. How many hard things are so easy with a little know how and the right tool? Gonna put some carpet on the bunks this weekend, I hope. I've been busy at work and gotta work tomorrow too, but Saturday I'm playing at the Redbud again here in town, so it's "good times here but better on down the road".

Grateful for guitars and lug wrenches Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:34 pm
by Dougster
Now I'm trying to learn how to set up a trailer. Mine sat for 3 years or so and some of the bunks warped. Also, though I gave the trailer dealer the frames, it was clearly thrown together without much attention to them. It is a nice, adjustable aluminum trailer and I have elected to replace the now warped (and massive 4' by 6') vertical bunks with horizontal ones. Here's how it started, with the starboard vertical bunk already removed:

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Now here I am with the new bunks.
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Here they are now with some quick mockup frames on them, space appropriately.
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Image

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Here's one of the inside bunks with new carpet.

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I don't have a great deal of confidence here. That massive vertical bunk surely was stronger than the replaced horizontal ones, but they are adjustable and hopefully will warp to fit the hull, since they can bend and twist. Any opinions out there? I'd rather not "Dougster" this deal :roll:

Feelin' around in the dark Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:18 am
by ericsil
Nice to see how good the boat is turning out after helping to flip it some time ago.

You may know this already, but every part on that particular trailer is supplied by Trailer Parts Superstore on the east coast, should you need some spares. The new bunks should work fine. These hulls are so stiff that you would need to make a heroic mistake to create any harm.

On a different topic, looks to me like you will have way too much tongue weight with the current position of the axle. The CG of the Nina with the engine in place can't be more than about 1/3rd the distance from the stern. Your wheel axle needs to be within about a foot of that location to put around 10% of the weight on the tongue. You can of course mess with the location of the bow stop, as I did with the P19, to get that final balance.

Good luck, you are doing a great job.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:43 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Eric, for giving it a look. I hadn't even thought about tongue weight yet 'cuz I've been all caught up in locating the bunk. The axle could be moved forward 8" easily, and 12" with only a bit more effort. It'd be a pita with the boat on of course, but I gotta put it on to know. I put a tape on it and the wheel hub is at .29 on the length, so that 8" may be necessary. Or maybe I'll be lucky :D

Got no problem with lucky Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:10 pm
by Mad Dog
Hey Doug! Good to see you working on the trailer. That means a splash is just around the corner, :D

So, just a couple thoughts on the bunks; how do they line up under the stringers? I would want the stringers right on top of the bunks. Also, I would lower the bunks as much as possible and add keel rollers to the cross members. Are the two outside bunks going to extend as far back the pics show? If so those are going to flex a lot.

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:40 am
by Dougster
Charles, I still have all the electrical and rigging, though I'll get most of the rigging done by the dealer. Thanks for the points on the trailer, it's a black art to me.

1. Those inside bunks are exactly under the stringers, so I'm OK there.

2. I can't lower the bunks much more and have the keel clear the trailer cross bars. The keel is 9" deep, quite a lot. I can't see keel rollers working, though I don't have any experience with them. That keel is a 1" thick, glass reinforced piece of Doug Fir. It tapers from 9" at the real transom to 0" about 2/3rds of the way up the hull.

3. Yes, those outside bunks must extend that far. It seem weird to me, given how long that trailer is, but they must. There isn't much weight on them though, they only support the "sponsons" behind the motor. The motor sits in its well 2' 5" forward of the stern and it's transom is supported by the inside, shorter bunks. Still, I wondered last night if I should put a little bracing underneath those bunks at the very rear, like maybe a 2x4 on edge.

The whole thing is a bit of a head scratcher. Maybe I need some kind of bow support?

Still scratchin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:16 pm
by Mad Dog
Dougster wrote: Still, I wondered last night if I should put a little bracing underneath those bunks at the very rear, like maybe a 2x4 on edge.
I think that would be a good idea. Perhaps the overhang is the reason for the 4X6 bunks? I didn't realize the trailer frame is as short as it is.

Couldn't comment on the bow support until we see how it sits on the trailer.

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:04 am
by Dougster
Mad Dog wrote: Perhaps the overhang is the reason for the 4X6 bunks? I didn't realize the trailer frame is as short as it is.
Maybe, but those bunks didn't extend all the way to the actual stern either. They fell about 12" short. Now that I have it almost all set up I think maybe it would have been better to split each outside bunk into two bunks. The forward part could be horizontal and the rear could be vertical (on edge), so it wouldn't sag. Maybe I'll find a good trailer place to take it when the boat is on and get their opinion. I believe the guys that originally set it up treated the motor/transom as the stern and didn't worry much about the rear sponsons, but who knows.

Still foolin' with it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:19 pm
by Dougster
Well I kinda Dougstered the trailer after all :P I kept feeling funny about the ends of those outside bunks flexing 'till I walked over and sat on one. To put it kindly, they won't do. The trailer builders clearly knew better than I did when they put those big old 4 x 6's verticle bunks in there. So here's the change. First here's a pic with the beast on one side and my little floppy thing on the other.
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Next I looked at the big boy bunks a bit and realize they were cut to a curve to fit the hull, but just warped some. One in particular is warped so I glued a little filler piece in, seen here on top.

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They may still be warped too much but it's hard to say 'till I get the boat on. At least now I got a good solid support for the back third of the boat:

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Here's the view from the front:

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You may be able to see above that the inside bunks as they move forward are an inch or more too low. They adjust very easily where as the big boys, not so much. So my thinking is to get Nina on the trailer, then adjust those inside bunks up with a little jack. The side bunks may be way to high up toward the bow, which would mean taking them out, one at a time and trimming them. That'd be a PITA. I'm thinkin' get Nina on board and see what I have :doh: Carpet for the big bunks is due in on Tues evening, so Wed. I'll put on the carpet and then it's about time for Nina to load.

This dang trailer thing's got me knackered. Twisting those big half inch nuts on and off about a hundred times with that little lug wrench got me to lookin' at cordless hammer drills or whatever you call them. I've resisted so far :roll:

Tired all over more'n anyplace else Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:30 pm
by Mad Dog
Hey Dougster! What's going on? Your build dropped to page two. How about an update?

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:05 am
by Dougster
Charles, I'm fussing along. I finished all I could do with the trailer two days ago. Next big deal is to get the boat on her and then try to tune the bunks up to fit the hull as best I can. I weighed the trailer yesterday: 780 lbs. After I got back I realized I'd forgotten to put the license plates on, but it was a short run and no problem. Lucky is good. Then I finished up bedding the hardware with the butyl rubber tape I've described before. I took pics of the process, since I haven't seen anyone using it on the forum. I like it 'cuz it isn't very sticky and it will be easy to re-bed a piece if need be. It doesn't bother the Sterling a bit. The stuff's like bubble gum: very stretchy, sticks like crazy to itself but not too much to anything else. Supposedly it stays flexible. I've had a little ball of it sitting out for a month and it hasn't change.

You cut off what you need and form it on the hardware, and built up a little "donut" around the bolt/screw. The bolt hole is opened up a bit on top to encourage the tape to push down and seal:

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Then you put it in, being careful not to turn the bolts much. Once in you hole the bolt steady and cinch up on the nut. Screws, of course, must be just turned in.

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Then take a razor blade, cut around the squeeze out, and peel it off. But NOT right away, cuz if you do an hour later more will have squeezed out and you'll be at it again. So just wait a few hours and do it.

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Ends up like this. Time will tell. To the right is the little ball of tape I pulled off. You can use it to pick up little bits you missed, as it sticks to itself well.

Image

So there it is, slow progress, but progress. I begin to doubt I'll have her splashed in time for the POC meet, so I reserved a hobie tandom with the mirage pedal drive system. Should be fun to try out.

Still buildin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:11 am
by AtTheBrink
You can do it Dougster! You still have over 60 days to get her done. Thanks for the tutorial on the butyl tape. That stuff looks a lot cleaner than the mess 5200 can be.
Which white did you use? I like the contrast with the blue KiwiGrip.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:53 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Glad to see you're getting close on the trailer. :D If you need a hand getting Nina loaded, let me know.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:42 pm
by Dougster
Hey John, thanks. Right now I'm on to other projects. I've gotten distracted by fooling with my old utility trailer. Also I'm beginning to grapple with the electrical and need to order wire, battery cables, lugs, etc. No loading this week, but I'm looking forward to it. Also I've been loving these cooler mornings 8)

Getting wired Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:32 pm
by Dougster
Well Nina's living on her trailer in open air now. I've been out of town a week but the last two days I've worked on getting her on the trailer. Not knowing how was part of the problem :lol: She's a pretty big girl to move around. In the end, two jacks helped and a brand new come-a-long bought yesterday shifted her. There were some scarey moments and if I have a next time I'll get a little help. I should have called you John, but I was itchin' to get it done. Here's the beginning.
Image

Looks like something's going on, and like maybe there's a plan.

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There's the deal. I figured line her up and winch her on. The trailer winch didn't have enough juice, so I got the come-a-long. She didn't want to move then either. I kept rocking her and heaving on the come-a-long and trying not to think of the bow eye failing and popping back at me at mach 1. Finally I jacked her up an inch here and there and sprayed soapy water on the hull and cradle bunks. Then more heaving on the come-a-long and she made a little groan. A couple moans more and she'd moved an inch. Steady on and here she comes, Don't be scared Nina :D
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Here's how I butted the cradle up against the trailer.
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She got dicey part way along and needed a keel support that rolled. Here's a jury rigged rolling jack stand kinda deal.
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About half way on she suddenly did a slow roll to starboard. I though she'd stop and she did but for a moment, well, I had a moment. When she settled, listed to starboard I walked back to her and leveled her by hand as she was balanced on too little really. A few more heaves settled her and on she came.
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She sits straight on the bunks but they're awful; not adjusted right at all. You can see how the stern rides two or three inches off the bunks.
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That'll be another day's head scratcher. I hooked the trailer up to the car and hauled her around the shop to her new home.

Image

When she was half way off the cradle a rain shower came over and wet her cabin. I figured it was a good omen.

Pooped and glad it's over Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:57 pm
by AtTheBrink
She looks great on her trailer! Almost ready to roll! What is the next step Dougster? Ready to hang the engine?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:30 pm
by glossieblack
She's a head turner. Congratulatons!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:55 pm
by Mad Dog
Way to go Doug!!! :D That's a tough job to do by yourself. 8O

Maybe if you raise the bow supports the stern will settle on those bunks. That may help with launch and retrieval.

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:51 pm
by Cracker Larry
You got her whipped now, Doug 8) Nothing but a thing to get that trailer right.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:47 am
by DylanT
She looks beautiful. Congratulations!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:48 am
by Dougster
Thanks everyone for the support and kind words. It does feel like something of a milestone. 'Course you turn one corner and there's another one. Charles, raising the forward bunks is my first thought, after I fool with the bow eye/winch thing. The winch is too low and has room to raise about 6 inches. The bunks are adjustable but a pita, what with crawling under with jacks and such. Still, like you say Larry, "just a thing" :D As soon as the trailer's good 'nuff she going for a ride to the dealer to hang the motor. Then I'll get on the wiring and some of the motor rigging. Finally, back to the dealer to finish up any rigging I haven't done and set up the motor. Then........... 8O

Turnin' the corners Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:12 pm
by wegcagle
Great job Dougster. She looks great in the daylight 8)

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:32 pm
by peter-curacao
Very nice boat, great job! 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:59 pm
by DylanT
Doug, just curious. What are those metal brackets at the false transom for?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:09 am
by Bowmovement
DylanT wrote:Doug, just curious. What are those metal brackets at the false transom for?

Maybe a swim step?

Matt

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:00 am
by Dougster
Yeah, they're for a little folding stainless steel ladder. It's not an ideal place 'cuz there's a long 5' or 6' run to get to the cockpit. It'll be a hands and knees or butt and scootch trip, but I did it mainly for safety. I'm 64 and would have a real struggle climbing back in the boat without a ladder. And thanks Peter and 'Cagle. I'm happy with her so far Peter but she's no way in the league of that piece of art you've built !!

64 and not as spry as before Dougster :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:58 pm
by ericsil
Really nice looking boat Doug. Push up those forward bunks so that the hull contacts all the way back and it should ride like a champ. Looks like the balance on the wheels may be fairly close also.
Good choice on the ladder. You will find that you do not have to be 64 to have trouble getting into a hull that high. The only way to get into my P19 without a ladder is to stand on the engine fin. In your case that option is out of the question. There are real horror stories about folks jumping over for a swim and forgetting to put down the ladder.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:39 am
by Dougster
Hey Eric, good to hear from you. I guess you're up in Maine. I've been fooling around with other stuff a bit but yesterday I got on the trailer a little. As I suspected, the nose was being held down by the strap and bow eye, which was wedged underneath the bow roller. Once freed, the nose lifted a couple of inches and rocked a bit. I could rock her up and down 2" with one hand!. Turns out she was resting only on the front of the two outside bunks, apparently close to her longitudinal center of gravity. The outside bunks adjust "digitally", i.e. via one inch spaced holes drilled in them and their brackets. The inside bungs are more "analog", they are supported by a 2" square aluminum tube in clamped brackets that can slid up and down. I just put a jack under one of the outside bunks where she's resting, took off the weight with the jack and pulled the half inch bolt supporting the bunk. Then I lowered the whole thing with the jack 'till she rested on the inside bunk. That puts her almost right. Now it'll just be a matter of fooling around a bit to get it sorted, I think. That jack has sure helped me. It's just a cheap Harbor Freight aluminum floor jack that I recently bought for this job, and I wish I'd had it all along.

Says tools are good Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:23 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
What a big step, Nina's ready for road trip! :D :D Sorry I haven't been around much, toooooo many things going on. Call me if I can give you a hand.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:06 am
by Uncle D
Mighty nice Doug. You got it whooped now.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:03 pm
by DylanT
Good choice on the folding ladder at the rear Doug! I opted for an aluminum ladder that hooks into the gunnel so as to give me direct access to the cockpit. But as mentioned here my setup might leave me stranded in the water in case I forget to deploy the ladder before jumping in. I might have to shift to a folding ladder like yours soon!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:37 am
by gk108
The outside bunks adjust "digitally" ... The inside bungs are more "analog"
That's a guitar player talking. :D

Nina's a beauty, that's for sure :!: Can't wait to see her fitted out and on the water.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:18 pm
by Dougster
Nina got her motor :D I took her in to the dealer (Highland Lakes Watercraft) and they mounted it after lending me the template and me doing the overdrill/fill/redrill thing. It's a small shop, selling mostly Jet Skis ( I know), but they carried E-Tec which I decided on mainly for the inane reason of it's low profile. Said low profile goes with the motor cover look, which I haven't even built yet :roll: Hopefully I'll get around to that but I want to splash her first. The dealer's owner (Ed) is there when he's not at the coast fishing. He's a boat builder, with several builds behind him, and we spoke the same language so I went with him. So far they've done right for me. They stored the motor for two months 'till I was ready for it. I did get my share of compliments on her. Ed said his brother is excellent with fiberglass and pronounced my work a good job. They know how to keep me happy :lol:
Here she is:

Image

Image

She looks ready but has a way to go. No wiring is in and that is next. Also rigging. I'll then take it back to the dealer to check my work and set up the motor.

Says it sure is fun Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:02 pm
by ericsil
Wow! It is looking better and better with every post. Looks like a nice fit to that trailer.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:48 pm
by wegcagle
Lookin good Dougster 8) It's gotta be a good feeling to get the ponys on her.

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:56 pm
by Mad Dog
I sense a saltwater splash in a couple weeks!!! :D :D

You've got to be feeling great!!

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:10 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Nina looks like she's ready to get in the water! :D 8) How did it tow/ride on the trailer? Time break out that old 45 "Splish-splash, I was takin' a bath.......".
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:31 am
by Auger01
very nice work. if you dont already have the wire, i have lots of new marine wire qnd miscellanous electrical parts left over from my rebuild that i would sell at very resonable prices. i live near georgetown by the way.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:34 am
by AtTheBrink
Auger01 wrote:very nice work. if you dont already have the wire, i have lots of new marine wire qnd miscellanous electrical parts left over from my rebuild that i would sell at very resonable prices. i live near georgetown by the way.
If Doug don't want it I might take up up on it. :D 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:46 pm
by Dougster
Go for it 'Brink, I'm OK on wire, just short on how to. Been busy today rehearsing with my little trio for a gig at the Redbud in Blanco next Saturday, but tomorrow I'll have a little time. It's hot as Hades working outdoors though, even in the shade 8O Thanks for the offer Auger :wink:

Movin' in slow time Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:46 pm
by Auger01
No problem Dougster. I got some of that know-how too, if you need any help, just holler.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:03 pm
by blueflood
Hi Dougster,

WOW really nice job Dougster, she looks great. Love the design also for easy going cruising ! The paint finish is top-notch and I am encouraged to see a long term project builder still at work. Like you, I do not plan on speeding things up for it to become a chore 8O. The electrical and motor installation/rigging I plan to do myself but I may have to ask about the pitfalls when time comes. Estimating a VHF radio, GPS chart plotter, gauges, nav lights, horn, AM/FM/CD player and a 12V accessory outlet, maybe wipers at some point but nothing more. The motor generates 12 amps and I am not planning on a house battery. All interior lights will be battery powered LEDs. I agree, this forum is a gold mine for valuable information and experience and I sure will be checking out more of your photos and threads.

As an aside your post reads your music trio ?!...you need a bass player :D ? May be a bit slow to drag my butt in Texas though but I love your spot !

Marc aka blueflood

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:00 am
by Dougster
No bass, we're just three guitar pickers. Come on down :D Thanks for the support Blue, it's been a journey for sure. I'll be posting questions soon enough on the electrical. For now I need to decide on batteries. I believe I'll go with Interstate and I'm looking at CCA and MCA, etc :roll: The little 30 horse ETEC comes with pull start that reportedly works well, yet the manual calls for 800 MCA, which seems like overkill to me. The little 24 series deep cycle battery has 690 and I think that'd do it. There is also a 24 series starting battery with 1000 MCA and 800 CCA, but I'm fond of deep cycle. Since I'm planning on two batteries, maybe I'll get one deep cycle first and see how it does. Battery location is a problem for me too. The dealer wanted me to put 'em in the splash well. I extended the sole into most of it so it is raised, but experimenting with two empty battery boxes (that I now need to return) shows it's too dang crowded and would make working on the pumps and such in there a pita. So they're back to the rear storage areas in the sponsons. Two batteries will be 90 lbs. in the stern, not good. They'll be sitting along side the motor, right at the actual transom. I'm about to say "whatever" and see how she trims that way and deal with it then if I don't like it.

Re the trailer, I do need to measure the tongue weight. It felt too heavy pulling it to the dealers for hanging the motor. Indeed, pulling it back, with the motor on, it felt better. There's still the anchor, rode, and chain in the nose, so, again, we'll see. I do like the 4" rise "cushioned" ball mount I bought. And then there's the trailer set up itself, which is ok but could be improved with a couple of side guides. I'll wait on that to see how she loads as is. Maybe with that big keel she'll track nice and straight right cross wind or whatever. Another we'll see :lol:

Hopes to see Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:14 am
by blueflood
Hi Dougster,

Great, let me know what you have installed on the electrical side and how it is all put together ? That is one department where my hat does not fit very well :lol: As long as a schematic is handy I can manage; but it is more the component (wire sizes, battery (ies) etc which I head scratch.

Marc

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:58 am
by Steven
Looking great Dougster!!!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:25 pm
by Joe H
Dougster,
I love the LB22, you have done a great job on her, the picture of her apprehensive peek out of the barn door is a classic!
I'm OK on wire, just short on how to.
Great, let me know what you have installed on the electrical side and how it is all put together ? That is one department where my hat does not fit very well As long as a schematic is handy I can manage; but it is more the component (wire sizes, battery (ies) etc which I head scratch.
Iโ€™m also there with my P19 build and share the same sediment as you and blueflood, Iโ€™m just gonna start hooking stuff up until the lights comes on. :)

Joe H

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:32 pm
by Dougster
Thanks to all of you guys for the support, it means a lot. The heat has me slowed down but I'm getting some little things done, like installing the sonar transducer and running it's line. I fooled with the motor rigging a half hour yesterday and got confused enough to put it away :lol: I drilled two little holes in the wrong place, then filled 'em back up, Dougster style, but no problem. As I've said before, I've gotten use to me by now. It's back to working 3 or 4 days a week too, but glad to be earning again, so that's ok. The heat continues and it's really pretty oppressive, but that's Texas in August. Stephen, I'm looking forward to meeting up with you and the rest of the builders at the POC meet. I checked the temps and it was a little better there the last few days than here. We'll see.

Simmering down here in Texas Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:05 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
What's up over there? Nina's getting closer to getting her feet wet. :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:59 am
by Dougster
Hi John, good to hear from you, drop by some day. I'm making slow progress but moving along a bit. I started back to work and have less time but still get things done. I've been drilling holes for wire runs, putting in the boot for the steering stuff to the motor, and now have the fishfinder's transducer in. Other little projects like rehabbing an old utility trailer somehow got in the way, too. Rigging the motor seems like a black art. I'm not even sure I have all the parts or what they are :lol: I'll just get all I have in place then let the dealer do the final hook ups. Next is installing the battery switch (more tedious holes to drill/fill) and then I need to cut holes for the gauges.

Like a lot of folks, I hated to trash my building jig, so here's my take on it. I cut it in half, left on the the castors, and am converting it into two work tables of equal height that can fit together end to end or in any other configuration. If I need the jig again I can bolt it together and take off the table tops. Here's an early pic of the first one.
Image

The utility trailer thing came about when Shirley casually volunteered to paint it if I'd do the prep. No fool Dougster jumped on that, and here you have it.
Image

Says you gotta love 'em Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:40 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
"Casually volunteered"- I'll have to remember that :D :? . Good thing Shirley is there to keep you in line. I am usually off on Thursdays (and some Fridays) maybe we can get together in the next couple weeks.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:13 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
We have been through Blanco 3 times in the last week, waved to y'all on the way by. Nina's getting ready for the big splash! :D Had lunch at your favorite taco joint in Blanco. Bonnie wants to know when your next gig is at the Redbud, we will come over and help you roll up the sidewalks. I am off next Thurs. (11-14) maybe we can get together. I see a POC thread for 2014, hmmm..... 8)
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:57 pm
by Dougster
John, it's good to hear from you. Next week I'm off on Friday, the 15th but work on the 14th. You free on Friday? If so come on by for a gab and gander. Today was a big day for the build. I threw in the towel on the motor rigging and took it to the dealer. Three hours and I got the motor rigged :D Nothing left but the gauges. I was so dumb I thought the control cable and the steering cable were the same thing :roll: No boats around here to look at to figure it out, but anyway, now I'm all sorted. Nothing but more electrical for the accessories, routing the gas line, hooking up the gauges, and installing the sonar left. It's a while before the next Redbud gig: Feb15, but I sure would like you and Bonnie to come. Stop by when you can.

Still movin' Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:04 pm
by AtTheBrink
Good to see you still at it Dougster. Getting the engine rigged and ready is a huge step :!: some things are best left to the experts, at the very least you will have someone to blame it on if something goes wrong :D .

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:57 am
by ks8
Yes... big step! Congrats... vrooom. Getting closer. :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:49 pm
by Dougster
Thanks for the support. The rest of the weekend was family and social stuff, but late this afternoon I went down to Nina, and she and I made some pondering breakthroughs on the electric thing. Winter is in the air, but Nina's got spring on her mind.

Says me too Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:22 am
by willg
Dougster, I was admiring the crisp and straight line you made with your graphite application. I went back in your thread and saw that you used a laser from HDepot. Would you mind letting me know which model laser you used? I think I could get a straight line on the side of my hull with eyeballing it and using a water level, but as I bring the line towards the keel I could see getting some error with those methods that a laser may eliminate.

Hope to see you in POC in 7/2014, btw.

Thanks, Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:27 am
by ks8
Got any pictures with the laser jig Dougster? :)

Also curious which laser the Dougster used...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:15 am
by topwater
Dont know what model but i used a cheap ryobi self leveling laser on a camera tripod to shoot my water line.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:18 pm
by Dougster
I'll have to go down later and see, but it was a cheapo Home Depot model, I think Ryobi. The line it throws can be a little fuzzy but it works ok. I'm sure a water level would be fine. I just marked spots every couple of feet or so and then taped it to those spots. Took a couple of tries as I recall. If you can get back a ways to check on the tape you'll be fine, the eye won't lie. Up close it's a challenge.

Usually challenged Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:44 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
You have been way to quiet over there. You're probably pondering pulling Nina back in the garage and adding the icebreaker option :D . If you are still on for the Redbud next Saturday (2-15), Bonnie and I will come over and help roll up the sidewalks.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:18 am
by tech_support
very, very nice 8)

She looks proud on that trailer

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:15 pm
by Dougster
Thanks, Shine. She makes me proud, it's true, but she's been looking at her watch and tappin' her foot lately, wanting to splash. I think I'm a little afraid to finish or something, 'cuz I've let this cold weather slow me down plenty. I got spoiled building her inside the little shop and sure don't like climbing around on her in a cold north wind (and we've had plenty here lately). As usual each step is a learning thing for me and the electrical had me pondering. I've finished all the wiring except the gauges so I'm getting there. The lights, bilge pumps, bait pumps (one for fill, one for recirc) are all working. GPS and Sonar are in but not tested yet. The wiring looks a mess and I will try and neat it up a bit next. That will be a challenge, as you'll see here.

"Under the hood", at the transom:

Image

Image

Console:

Image

Image

Here's a peek inside one of the "storage" areas in the stern. She has two batteries, in the stern on the port and starboard side.

Image

I could do a lot better, now, after Dougstering through it all. For now I'll just go with a little wire loom in a spot or two, a million more zip ties, and hope for forgiveness.

John, I'm playing on the 15th for sure and would love to see you and Bonnie. How are you folks doing? After I finish the electrical all I have is running the fuel line (I may move the fuel filter) and then put on the rubrail.

Trusting in forgiveness Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:29 pm
by Rob Eades
That electrical stuff scares the bejesus out of me! I can't wait to hear how that little ETEC moves her along, maybe the perfect power plant for that hull.I'm worried though, the transition from head scratchin and pondering to quietly and effortlessly plying those blue gulf waters,we hope you can adapt.Theres always therapy. 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:13 am
by glossieblack
Some things in life are certain.The sun comes up in the east. And the Dougster's LB22 is turning out a beaut! :D :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:03 pm
by Joe H
Man, I'm right there with ya Dougster,
quietly and effortlessly plying those blue gulf waters
I would hope that would be therapy enough!

Joe H

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:12 am
by gk108
Dougster wrote:I'm playing on the 15th for sure
Good to know somebody has a gig :!: :lol:
After about a year of of talk and auditions, I think we might finally have something resembling a band again. I hope I haven't lost my soundman chops. :help:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:21 am
by Dougster
GK, there's more musicians here than gigs I think. I'm less than an hour from Austin and that place has venues where new bands PAY to play 8O The young folks all play and all the old boomers like me have finally learned how to string a few chords together. I'm in a little guitar trio now, no bass or drums and it's sure fun. We do about 2/3rds originals and assorted old covers (just added Van Morrison's "Days Like this" to the set list). Great hobby; must be awful to try and make a living with it though. Good on you for getting a band together. What stuff are you gonna play?

It's 39 degrees and howling north wind this morning and I think Nina's sitting out there pouting. She wants her wiring cleaned up and gas line routed, but old man weather is against me. I don't much argue with him anymore. Rob, the electric is no thing, you just ponder, ask questions, string wires, say dang it, pull 'em out and string 'em again. One day it starts coming together. My gauges mystify me though. The feed from the motor the dealer has more wires than I got places to put 'em :doh:

I appreciate the thumbs up from all, and like the blue waters image. Spring is coming.

Tight lines and loose ends Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:08 am
by gk108
I don't know if it will ever get cold enough for me to get invovled in any of that pay to play stuff. :D This band is going to be a drummer and bass player cousins that have played together on and off for 30 years, a guitar/keyboard player and a rhythm guitar. They all sing and right now it looks like some Southern and Country. "Truckin'" and something by Lou Reed are on the list. Two of them have books full of originals, so there's no telling what will fall out. We already have a booking at the end of the month, so somebody had better figure out the song list. :doh:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:22 pm
by Dougster
30 years and family sounds like a rhythm section out of my league. Sure would be fun to sing a bang on my guitar with something like that behind me! Good on you for getting things together. I'm with you on the pay to play thing, that's sounds plain crazy to me and it's not about to happen :lol: We got good weather coming this weekend so Nina is wantin' some work done and I've promised her.

Still building Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:09 am
by Dougster
Yesterday was a very happy milestone. The day broke sunny and warm, with an eventual high of 81. The morning was time for an important install :D Here, it begins:

Image

You can see, things are a bit tight. Not much room, but measure twice and make the cut:

Image

So what's the install? Look:

Image

Yep, but that's no ordinary cup holder. Maybe two years ago or more Cracker Larry saw me struggling with the consoles and in response to a post I made about leaving the dock on a fair morning with a hot cuppa, sent me this cup holder :!: Yeah, we've never met, but he ships that cup holder to me as a gift toward splash day. It will hold my coffee and surely some even nicer beverages :lol: . It will also remind me of all the help from people on this board and encourage me to do what I can to pay it forward. Thanks Larry :wink:

Image

Gettin' by with a little help from his friends Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:17 am
by Cracker Larry
:D :D :D My pleasure Doug!

Sure wishing for some of that 81 degrees here. Send me some of that as a swap :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:52 pm
by Steven
Looking good Dougster. Sure is pretty this weekend. I took off Friday for the Wife and Monday to give me 3 boat building days. Couldn't be nicer. I love that cup holder. I have two on my console now and I'm considering putting 3 on the new console. Great for drinks, cell phones, keys, eye glasses. etc.... :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:07 am
by Dougster
Hey Steven, they are nice. I bet I throw keys and lures in 'em too. My wife wants the same kind on the port console, so the order is in :D

Happy with warmer weather Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:14 am
by Cracker Larry
I've got 12 of them just like that to install on the GF18 I'm trying to build. Don't have a clue where I'm putting 12 of them, but that's what my client sent me :doh: :lol:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:32 am
by wegcagle
Lookin' good Dougster 8) Gotta love the group help around here :D

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:25 pm
by Dougster
It's time to get the rubrail on. I bought the small Jamestown Tessilmare kit for it's reportedly easier install. So far it seems quite straightforward. I got a 46' kit, which won't wrap around the stern more than about 3", so I won't bother wrapping it any. Here's the rubber part and the 6 1/2' rails it installs on:

Image

You screw on the rails then force the rubber bumper over them. Here's the first rail on with 1" self tapping screws (#8 I think).

Image

I'm curious how folks would proceed. I'd hate to leave those screws in there with nothing to prevent water/rot. The quick thing would be to back out the screws, squish in some 5200 or 4200 and put it back up. The high road would be to back out the screws, over drill, fill with thickened epoxy, re-drill, and screw the rail back up. There'll be 80 screws all told ( 8O ), but it really wouldn't be that tough. So I see two roads, the high one and the low. I'm leaning high, but what did other folks do?

Fork in the road Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:32 pm
by Cracker Larry
You already know which fork to take :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:38 pm
by Dougster
Hah, that was quick! Thanks for the nod.

High road Dougster 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:48 pm
by Cracker Larry
Always a good choice :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:14 pm
by Boater45
That's funny, I was just looking at that kit on Jamestown. Can't wait to see how it turns out....

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:52 pm
by wegcagle
Looks good Dougster. I was also looking at the same kit (but in black). Be sure to give us a review of it once it's on.

I know the want to squeeze some 5200 in there (which is actually what the instructions tell you to do :help: ), but you'll sleep better at nights knowing that there's no chance of rot :D

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:28 pm
by Boise PC24
this boat is looking awesome!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:01 pm
by Dougster
Thanks folks. I wish I'd bought the black rubrail myself, 'cuz this one will smudge all the time, but oh well. I'll post pics of the install since folks are interested. The issue with the smaller one is that it comes with two plastic end caps and I want two more. No one seems to sell them in that size, except in stainless steel at $31 each. Seems silly to spend that much so I'll look around. Anyway, the first step is to screw on the rails which is dead easy. I used 1" #8 self tap stainless screws. First I taped 'em on:

Image

You can see they're so springy that simple tape holds 'em on. It's a one man job. After all the rails were screwed in I took them off and labled them:

Image

You can see the end caps in the above pic. The two small ones are the caps, with one connector that came with the kit. The other one is a left over bigger cap I bought which doesn't fit.

The next pic is a bend around the bow. I had 8" left over to wrap the corner and the bend is dead easy; no heat gun needed.

Image

The last thing I did today was over drill the screw holes with a 1/4" bit with a stop collar on it.

Image

Tomorrow I gotta try and fill all those holes. I've never located any decent syringes for that, they're all too small. So, I'll use my old fill a zip lock bag and cut off the corner way.

Up on that high road Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:37 pm
by gk108
That's looking purty :!:
I found some large syringes at a Tractor Supply store in the livestock section. Maybe a local feed store or something like that may have some for livestock vaccinations. :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:44 pm
by Cracker Larry
Same here. Our Tractor Supply, Agri-Supply and all the farm stores have syringes in any size you need.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:20 pm
by Uncle D
Hey Doug, that's where I'm at. Over drill and fill. Waiting for the weather to warm bit. Wished I'd bought the black too. Looks good amigo!!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:38 am
by Dougster
Hey Don it's good to hear from you. Summer's around the corner and I'm planning on bringing her to the builder's meet so I'd better get her splashed. Larry, my Tractor Supply store doesn't have any big syringes but they do have some smaller ones that I have used before. Last Sunday I had the big idea of cutting up a piece of straw, sticking it in a ziplock corner, putting reinforcing tape around that, poking a hole in it with a nail, and knocking the whole thing out in 30 minutes.

So humming a smug little tune I trot down to the shop, take off the rail, and put a 1/4" twist bit in my drill. I vaguely remember having some little stop collars to fit the bit, so it wouldn't run through the side panels, and after just a few minutes of poking around, found 'em. Seemed propitious. Kinda felt like this: :wink:

So I put on said collar and sure nuff knocked out all 108 holes in no time flat. Birds were singing, it was about 65 degrees, there was a very light little south wind, and the God's were smiling. I trotted in my shop, cut my little piece of straw, rigged it, and mixed up some good thick epoxy. I went for near peanut butter texture so it wouldn't run out the hole. I loaded the ziplock, poked the hole with the nail, opened the door and stepped up to Nina.

The birds were not singing. The little south wind had left me and been replaced by a dang cold north wind blowning 20 mph with 30 mph gusts :help: Drizzle was blowing horizontally across the build into my face :help: :help: I'm standing there in a t shirt with my mouth hanging open. I mean, I'm from here, my God I know the weather changes fast but 5 minutes? Well, with less confidence I shove the straw tipped zip lock corner in the first hole and after several minutes of struggle and a bit of language, I learn that my big idea is really a very tiny one. Finally I give it up. I wasn't completely cold as my hand holding the baggy full of epoxy was nice and warm :roll:

I dunno why, but I have a lot of these dang fire drills with epoxy. My inclination in those moments is to set my hair on fire and run around in circles, but reason usually prevails. What I did was grab one of the earlier mentioned mid-sized Tractor Supply syringes I had. I'd quit on 'em long ago 'cuz I couldn't draw thick epoxy up through the end. So I pulled the plunger out, transferred the now getting even warmer epoxy into a fresh zip lock, cut off the corner, and tried squeezing that into the top of the syringe. Well, dang if that didn't go smoothly, so I put the plunger in, trotted out to Nina and, joy in Mudville, it worked a trick. After all the struggle and hair on fire stuff there was only enough epoxy for a dozen holes or so, but it worked a trick.

I though about mixing more epoxy but it was cold, wet, and cold. I checked the thermometer and it said 40. Sometimes you gotta quit pushing the river. I went up to the house and got some coffee. Been at work all week but today I'm having another go. It's sunny, no wind, and a forecast high of 72. Birds will be singing.

Big idea Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:19 am
by Cracker Larry
:lol: :lol: Too funny Doug!

Never seen a winter like this one here. 38 and raining again, 5 days in a row now :?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:40 am
by topwater
I use the straw in the corner of a quart freezer bag held in with duct tape , never had a problem yet.
But I only use it on 1/4" or bigger holes. I'll have to try the syringes on the smaller ones. Great story :!:
Build on .

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:55 pm
by Dougster
Well she's got a rub rail. Here's the over drilled, re-drilled screw holes.

Image

Now here's the rail:

Image

The very last step was cutting the end foot or so off the rubber rail with a knife. So of course I slip, nick my finger, and put a little 1 1/2" scratch on her stern :roll: Well, it's not her only little ding. I cleaned up, put a band aid on my finger and looked her over. Found a little spot of blood by the scratch which, oddly, cheered me no end. A nick for me, one for Nina, and she's got her rub rail :D

Gettin' closer Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:07 pm
by Mad Dog
Looks great Doug!! Splash is in view!!

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:49 am
by blueflood
Hi Doug,

I see your rub rail and it looks like what I want to install on Harmony. From my end here it looks like a stock D profile with a backing plate ? or is it something else ? I found a source for black heavy duty rubber D profiles with a wide selection of widths and I may end up screwing the fasteners in a shallow counterbore in mine (3/4" thick, 1-1/2" wide. I will go that route unless your attaching system is different ?

Marc

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:59 pm
by Dougster
I dunno Blue, I got it from Jamestown. Here's the link:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/us ... ?pid=56893

It would be nice if if the source you found fits the rails(backing plate) provided with the Jamestown kit. It's the first rail I've ever done so I'm not sure. Check out the link above and let me know.

Waitin' out another durn Norther Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:10 pm
by Boater45
Hey Doug,

Did you take the rubrail around the bow? Did you use the radial 30 or 40 kit? How did it end up around the stern? Any pictures?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:51 pm
by Dougster
I didn't take it around the bow 'cuz the anchor pulpit is kinda in the way and I needed that little bit extra length to round the corner in the stern. I bought the radial 30 kit which came with 46' of rubber insert and railing. The railing is a cinch to install and bends around a 90 degree turn with no heat needed. Here's a pic of the first corner without the insert on it. I didn't use as many screws on the second corner:
Image

Now here's the other corner with the insert:

Image

It flattened out a bit going 'round, but looks a bit better than the pic shows. Did you find a source for the rubber D insert? It'd be nice not to have if I ever care to replace the current one when it gets old and smudged. Anyway, it was and easy system to install for a first timer. I haven't added the end caps yet.

Rub railed Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:27 pm
by Boater45
It looks great!! Thanks for the pictures. I think I'm going to purchase the black radial 30 kit....hope it turns out as nice as yours.

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:17 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Just checking to see how you're doing over there. I think I missed it by a day or two, Happy Birthday! :D :D
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:47 pm
by Dougster
Hey John, thanks, how'd know? It was a big birthday (welcome to medicare :D ) and involved some celebrating. I'm getting close to splash. Nina has her numbers on her and she's legal now, so hopefully I'll have something to report in a week or two. Great rain these last 2 days but makes doing stuff outdoors hard. Are you and Bonnie thinking about coming to the builders meet this year at POC?

Medicare carded Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:27 pm
by AtTheBrink
Good to see you finishing up Nina! I can't wait to see her on the water. How was it getting your hull I.D. numbers? Did you have to take the boat to TPWD? Or did a game warden come to you?

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:45 pm
by Dougster
Game Warden came out, no problem. Just a quick glance to be sure it wasn't some ripped off commercial hull. I did have to go to the office to pay the fee for the registration numbers. You gotta buy the decals yourself. I got some simple number decals from Bass Pro. The title for the boat came in 3 weeks via snail mail. She's real now.

Gettin' close Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:57 pm
by AtTheBrink
Thanks for the info Dougster. I will get all my paperwork together and see about getting that scheduled.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:38 pm
by Mad Dog
There's a bright light at the end of tunnel!! :D

Doin the happy dance in for you Doug!!

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 10:20 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
I can hear the water lapping at Nina's hull :D That E-Tec is just about ready to go. Bonnie and I are thinking about going to POC this year, should know for sure in a couple days. We are trying to squeeze in a trip to northern New Mexico in June first.
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:57 am
by Dougster
Test post to see if my IP is still blocked.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 10:02 am
by Dougster
Ah, good. Never happened before but I couldn't post---kept getting an odd msg about being blocked or something. Couldn't clear it 'cuz it didn't like my "public" email address (gmail). It said something about clearing in 3 days if no more spam happened, so I guess it did. Anyway, I postponed the splash till this Wed. Schools not out, I have the day off, and the ramp should be pretty empty. Tried the motor on the hose yesterday and all went well. We'll see how well I set the trailer up when I back her down and especially when I put her back on. Gonna give her a good power wash this morning. Hope you and Bonnie make it to POC John.

'bout ready for splash Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 12:22 pm
by AtTheBrink
Awesome Dougster! Really looking forward to seeing the pictures of the splash and hearing your report!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 4:34 pm
by Cracker Larry
I'm looking forward to seeing the splash pictures, Doug :D I've been following this for, uh... over 7 years :!:
Texas LB22
Postby Dougster ยป Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:06 pm
Hey folks, I've come down here to start a thread where I can just carry on
You have done a dang fine job on her 8) Wish I could be there for the splash. Drink the wine before you break the bottle :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:14 am
by Dougster
2007 8O Well, the truth is I think I bought the ply and started cutting in 2006 8O 8O I'm following your build 'Brink, and don't think it'll take you quite as long :roll: Larry, of course built a half dozen boats and raised his children in less time. I wouldn't want new people reading this and feeling intimidated though. I had zero skills to begin with and had to learn everything. Given my now known "Dougstering" way of learning I pretty much built her twice :lol: Nah, that's an exaggeration. I did work slowly, seldom more than 4 hour stretches and more often 2 hour, and certainly not every day. It's a hobby now. BTW, Nina loved that power wash. Water suits her.

Waitin' on Wednesday Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:56 am
by AtTheBrink
I have thoroughly enjoyed watching you build this boat! getting to meet you and see Nina in person in POC is going to be better. Thanks for following my build, I learned a lot from your Dougstering!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:50 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Glad to see Nina is ready to splash! :D :D Are you going to put in at Canyon Lake or go up north (LBJ, Inks)? Lets see lots of pictures. BTW, SledDog said he would be at POC 8)
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:30 pm
by Dougster
Hallelujah, Nina splashed :D
Gettin' her ready:
Image

Back her down:
Image

Here's hopin'
Image

Kinda speechless:
Image

She runs a little bow high. No weight in there now and two batteries in aft stern lockers. Half tank gas.
Image

I have a video of a drive by on plane, but will need some time to figure out how to post it. She's a bit slow. Design speed is 20 mph with 30 horses. My beginner overweight build (bare hull is 1160 lbs, with motor, batteries, and gas say 1500 lbs). She ran a two run course average of 18.5 mph at about 4950 rpm with 30 horse e-tec. Dunno the pitch on the factory prop that came with the motor, but will find out. I'd hoped for 20 so am giving myself a near miss.

No porpoise, no odd mannerism. Didn't get to run her in much chop. Tracks on a rail and turns a bit slowly with her big keel. It wasn't a long day, but I'm beat. Too much time with my heart in my throat :D I did have a couple come up and notice her on the trailer and wanted to know more, loved her, etc. I love her too :wink: I don't have words to tell you guys how much it all means and how grateful I am to so many who have held my hand here for, well, a few years.

Here's the best pic of all:

Image

Speechless Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:42 pm
by jacquesmm
Congratulations, the boat looks real good.

It's difficult to see in your pictures but it looks like she runs a little bit bow high.
With some weight forward like ground tackle and gear, the trim should improve. Also, you will get used to the engine trim.
Trimmed down, she may go faster.

Note that the designed speed is 18 mph top with a 30, not 20.
I have been on one fitted with a 50 HP that ran well above 25 mph but that is not what she is designed for. She should feel very comfortable at semi-displacement speeds.

Your hull looks very fair, nice paint job.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:58 pm
by Mad Dog
Very nice Dougster!! Congratulations! :D

MD :wink:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:04 pm
by AtTheBrink
Congratulations Dougster! That is one fine rig you have built, you should be proud!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:13 pm
by garym
Boat looks great. Enjoy

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:35 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Congratulations :D the boat looks fantastic, Shirley looks happy, you look happy and it looks like a nice day too 8)
Doesn't get any better than that...

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:37 pm
by pee wee
Great looking boat, and it floats!! Beautiful job, it turned out great. :D :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:05 pm
by justin_dwyer
Congratulations Dougster!!
Beautiful boat, you must be very satisfied :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:58 pm
by Cracker Larry
Great job Doug 8) 8) 8)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:26 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Big Day! Congrats on the splash! :D :D Its amazing what plywood and a lot of boxes from UPS can do! Nina looks like she likes the water (Capt and First Mate look pretty happy too :wink: ). Can't wait to see y'all at POC.
John & Bonnie

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:10 pm
by willg
Nice!!! I'm very happy for you!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:20 am
by topwater
Congrats Dougster , beautiful build now go enjoy her :!:

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:09 am
by wegcagle
Just awesome Dougster 8)

Time to enjoy all the hard work.

Will

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:52 am
by Noles309
She looks awesome 8) Congratulations!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:07 pm
by RR
Congratulations Dougster! She is such a beautiful boat. :D
Dougster, you probably will be able to get 20 MPH at WOT with your motor because the Evinrude website shows the 30 HP E-TEC's "Full Throttle RPM Range" = 5500-6000 RPMs, and your trial ran at only 4950 RPMs. A little adjustment of something will most likely increase your RPMs. (I know nothin 'bout nothin so I couldn't suggest what to try, but there are some real smarties here in the Forum who would probably be happy to help you.) Good luck Dougster.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:23 pm
by tech_support
congratulations on the launch, a very satisfying day I'm sure.......... very nice :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:50 pm
by Walkers Run
Just awsome Dougster!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:36 pm
by Cracker Larry
She ran a two run course average of 18.5 mph at about 4950 rpm with 30 horse e-tec. Dunno the pitch on the factory prop that came with the motor, but will find out. I'd hoped for 20 so am giving myself a near miss.
Wrong prop Doug, it has too much pitch. Need to get the rpms up almost another 1,000. See if your engine dealer will swap it, or has some loaners to try. The size is stamped on it somewhere on the hub. Whatever size you have on it now, I'd try one with 2" less pitch and see how it behaves.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:32 pm
by Dougster
Thanks to everyone, too many to mention you all. I had to work today but am off tomorrow and will start the prop hunt. I knew she needed more RPMs so figured maybe the prop has too much bite. It's whatever came with motor and Ed the dealer is proud of prop knowledge so I'll call him tomorrow. Jacques correctly pointed out that the plans call for 18 mph with 30 horses (I'd incorrectly recalled it as 18 knts.), so that's pretty dang good designing. She hits the mark plus .5 running nose high, and over propped. I liked stainless steel props in the past so intended all along to get another and keep this one as a spare. Lotta dang surprise reefs in our bays here. I remember hitting one years ago and knocking the stuffing out of myself against the wheel. Prop survived just fine, as did the lower unit. Thanks for the 2" starting point tip Larry. Do you think that may help bring her nose down? Like Jacques, she rides a little stern high, even with no water in the bait well. Anchor, chain and rode are on board, but no spare anchor and zilch in the cabin storage, which will of course change and add weight forward.

The other issue was the trailer: she doesn't drive on easily and I had to get out and position her in the end. Gotta fool with that some. The Garmin and Furuno sonar, much too my surprise, came on immediately and looked great. I really had never turned them on, just wired it all up and crossed my fingers :!: Couldn't believe they both worked. I gotta learn how to use them of course. The Furuno seemed really nice. Time will tell.

I'm immensely relieved at her performance "out of the box" so to speak. I build her over weight as a beginner but she still runs true, floats on her lines, and hits her designed speed mark. Hats off to Jacques for these professional designs.

Thanks again to all of you guys for chiming in. Means a lot after all those lonely hours with the sander and the anxious pondering.

Built a boat Dougster :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:04 pm
by Biker B.O.B.
Congratulations Dougster!

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:06 am
by Dougster
Well I made it back from 3 days sea trials in Port Mansfield. I stayed in the bay and what's called the east cut 'cuz we had 20 mph winds with gusts to 30 every day 8O She's a better boat than I am a skipper, I'll say that. Still runs bow high a bit but not too much. Fully loaded she gets only 4800 rpms at full throttle, so I believe I need to go down 2" in pitch on the prop. The sad news is my 15 years without skippering a boat made for mucho trouble when docking her. When it came time to put her back on the trailer the best ramp/dock in town was closed due to construction. The only one left is rough and with wind gusts to 30 and my lack of experience, I really couldn't handle her. After 3 more or less crashes into the dock I got her on the trailer, scratched up paint and all :roll: The hull will need another coat of Sterling to fix those scratches, but I'm over it. Nothing broke, and she handled really rough conditions with no pounding. Runs 14 or 15 mph into stinking 20 knot wind with big gusts that had been going all night. All systems worked: GPS, Sonar, Baitwell. The little timer on the bait pump kept croaker alive for 24 hours. Had a few hits, broke one off, and got skunked :oops: Didn't fish hard though, mostly played with the boat.

I'll give her a good season to scratch her up more as I learn how to handle her, then do another coat of paint on the hull. With her big keel and 30 horses she doesn't handle like a typical little flats or CC bay boat. She answers the helm in her own good time and then I'd end up over steering.

Needs to practice Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:54 am
by AtTheBrink
Nice report Dougster. Sounds like you had a good time. It has been really blowing down here. Hope we can catch some calmer winds for Port O'Connor.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:32 pm
by sds
"to dougster" v : 1: to persevere with forthright effort and ceaseless good humor, 2: to end up with a kick-ass boat.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:32 pm
by Cracker Larry
:D What he said ^^^

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:00 am
by Dougster
Thanks to everyone for the support. Proud as I am of the build, I have real doubts that I could have seen it through without the help here. In celebration I bought Nina a little present. She was admiring all the Power Poles on the boats in the bay, so, after checking out their cost on line, I bought her a bucket, 50' of line, and a little folding lunch hook :lol: She seems pleased enough with it.

Have boat will travel Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:30 am
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Sounds like you and Nina did real well on the sea trial! :D Landing in 20 to 30 knot winds is trial by fire for sure. Don't worry about the paint, those scratches tell a story. BTW, did the cupholder function as designed? :wink:
John

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:10 pm
by Steven
WOOT!! Congrats> That looks fantastic. Hope I can sneak over to the meet to see her. I'm checking out of Port A that Saturday.


Trailering is a pain in the wind. It just takes more speed than you'd like. Have to drive it on fast to overcome the wind but not so fast you drive the winch through the bow. :)

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:13 pm
by Dougster
Yeah she needs more way than I wanted to control the bow. My real problem was docking her though. Lost control and scraped down the dock 3 times. Big long scratch on one side, little one on the other. I'm over it and will scratch a few more times 'til I get the hang of her. Then I'll run another coat of Sterling over the hull sides (and probably scratch that in a week too :roll: ) Sure hope you make it to the meet, but I know how time gets away from you on weekend Port A trips. I'm thinkin' on a day trip to Lake LBJ next week just for a little more "sea" time. Worked on the trailer today, lowering the drive on uprights which were just too dang high and bugged me.

likes summer Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:34 am
by Spokaloo
Doug, I'm extremely stoked to see you have emerged from the construction tunnel, and have such a wonderful boat. You've earned it.

So thoughts from our boat for concerns you have:

She will run bow high with a moderate amount of weight aft. I'd be really curious how much negative trim you can work into her with the outboard. On the Yamaha the pin has to be in the bottom hole at the least, however I pulled the pin completely to get more negative (down) trim when we are light.

Docking on that big, honkin' long keel is an art. Once you get the hang of it, and figure out the timing of throttle and engine position, the thing is an absolute dream at the dock. PLAN AHEAD! Small movements, spend more time out of gear than in, and mess around with putting her in neutral, turning the motor to full lock, and put it back in gear. She will literally work straight sideways doing this when you get the hang of it.

Who cares about scratches man, you did a great job on that boat. Enjoy this summer as much as humanly possible.

E

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:41 pm
by Dougster
It's great to hear from you Eric, and I sure hope you and family are well. I do see your posts on WB on occasion and enjoyed reading your comments on the lumberyard skiff. You are absolutely one of these forum members who helped me so much early on, especially since you had a Nina skiff thread going for me to follow along. At the moment I am near your neck of the woods, in Packwood, Wa., by Mr. Ranier Natl. Park, getting ready for some day hikes starting tomorrow. We had a beautiful drive in from Seattle today and have a nice cottage rented.

I have had the Nina out once more since the wind struggle on our coast. I picked a nice still weekday on a nearby (30 minutes) lake and Shirley and I had a nice hour run around, mostly up the river, and then some brief time practicing docking. I'm getting better for sure, and love the boat. I have gotten many positive comments on her and people look amazed when they learn she's a home build. Mrs. Dougster loves her plenty, especially the handy cabin and nice smooth ride. Yep, I'm out of the construction tunnel.

Still can't believe it Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:24 pm
by Cracker Larry
Dougster, I used to teach boat handling of small and large power boats and sail boats. Boats up to 60'. Twin engine sport fishing boats, inboard singles, outboards, whatever. Teaching new owners how to handle and dock them. You think your boat is tough to dock, try putting a 60' sailboat on a travel lift with the wind blowing against the current.

To avoid scratching the boat, don't practice at a solid dock. Anchor out 3 or 4 floats in a line that simulates the dock, in the same orientation to current and wind, Use fenders, gallon jugs, or something and pretend it is the dock. Then when you hit it, it doesn't hurt anything. When possible, approach the dock with either the wind or current against you, whichever is the strongest. Move very slow, as Spokaloo said, shift in and out of gear. If you have to hit something, hit it going very slow. The goal is to stop the boat exactly where you want it, without bouncing off of it. You can learn how to walk that boat sideways just using prop torque to your advantage, don't try to work against nature. You boat almost certainly has a right hand prop. Due to torque, when you put the boat in forward, the stern will move to starboard before it moves forward. When you put it in reverse the stern will move to port before it starts moving back. Use these forces, plus wind and current to advantage. Each boat handles differently, but it just takes a little practice and knowledge of the forces at work. Keep the strongest force ahead of you if possible. Practice on something and somewhere harmless, where nobody is looking, not at a crowded boat ramp on a weekend.

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:55 pm
by Dougster
Thanks Larry, I could use a few lessons. 12 years since I've operated a boat and I had no muscle memory at all. I can visualize that shifting to reverse and cranking the wheel to port will pull the stern to port and rotate to bow to starboard, but it takes me a second. Under the pressure of the moment, well, I did the opposite a few times, contributing to the drama of the situation :lol: Your advice about practice is well taken and I'll do a bit every time I go out. You ought to see me try to back her down the ramp 8O I always backed by looking over my shoulder and looking out the rear window. That's a no go with Nina, she's too tall and you need to use your side mirrors. Well, that's the reverse of what I'm used to but I did better the 2nd try :roll: For now it's:

No beer 'till she's back on the trailer Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:27 pm
by JohnC
Hey Dougster,
Stole a picture of the flip back in 2009 of the flip for another page. That was a long time ago! Hope you are well.
JohnC

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:38 am
by Dougster
Hey John good to hear from you. Let's get lunch or something soon. Do you still have my phone #?

Dougster

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:47 pm
by glossieblack
Hey Dougster, do you still have and use Nina? She's a lovely boat. :D

Re: Texas LB22

Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:00 am
by Dougster
Still have her but use the SK 14 and canoe more. Did take Nina out for a few days at Rickport last June. Wish I used her more often but these days I miss not having a spot lock trolling motor for nearby lake fishing. Wife loves Nina though.

Dougster