Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

We've finally gotten around to creating a build thread for the DE25 we are building in Clearwater FL. It's a family team effort with a little help from Derrick Borecky. I'll try to start taking more pictures during the process than I have so far. Wer'e having fun so far!

Kyle

Wow, great shop! I love the DE25 and will sure enjoy a build thread on her. Post often if you can, and details are good. What are you thinking about for power? Got a trailer in mind yet? So many fun things to ponder

On board for the thread Dougster

with a little help from Derrick Borecky.

I don't even get an honorable mention

That is a fine shop and you've made some great progress already Call me if you need me.

Kyle,

I love your shop. With climate control, you will be able to build no matter the temp or weather..... You will have that thing built before I even flip my TX 18.........

I hooked Kyle up with Cracker Larry to ride shotgun on this one......

Kyle plans to use this boat for a number of things. The main purpose is to go Spearfishing. He will set it up like a dive boat with gun "holsters" and tank racks. He may even run up to 100 miles one way on this boat. I'm sure many mods will be needed to accomplish this. More fuel capacity being one of them....... I think he will need to raise the sole for the extra weight he will be carrying. The largest motor will also be a good thing with all the cargo weight and a kicker just in case at a 100 miles out. He wants to hook the fuel and steering to the kicker as well.....

double post

Cracker Larry wrote:

with a little help from Derrick Borecky.

I don't even get an honorable mention

That is a fine shop and you've made some great progress already Call me if you need me.

You'll get a plaque with your name on it on the boat Larry!

At last the most Alaska friendly design on the site in my opinion I will be watching this like a hawk. And you have The Man for over watch so this should be good. Will you be building the long or short cabin version? I am guessing the short for your part of the world.
I just returned from a trip through Prince William Sound and a DE-25 was designed for that place. I could not think of a better fit.
Have fun and please post every picture you can.
Fuzz

kmarschall wrote: little help from Derrick Borecky

there I corrected your post

past due for a spearfishing trip

Dougster wrote:Wow, great shop! I love the DE25 and will sure enjoy a build thread on her. Post often if you can, and details are good. What are you thinking about for power? Got a trailer in mind yet? So many fun things to ponder

On board for the thread Dougster

My grandparents own a roofing company and my grandmother let us build the boat in one of the garages. It's a perfect setup. For power we're thinking of a Yamaha F200 and for the trailer a local trailer builder, but we 'll look into that part more when we get closer to flipping the hull.

dborecky wrote:Kyle,

I love your shop. With climate control, you will be able to build no matter the temp or weather..... You will have that thing built before I even flip my TX 18.........

I hooked Kyle up with Cracker Larry to ride shotgun on this one......

Kyle plans to use this boat for a number of things. The main purpose is to go Spearfishing. He will set it up like a dive boat with gun "holsters" and tank racks. He may even run up to 100 miles one way on this boat. I'm sure many mods will be needed to accomplish this. More fuel capacity being one of them....... I think he will need to raise the sole for the extra weight he will be carrying. The largest motor will also be a good thing with all the cargo weight and a kicker just in case at a 100 miles out. He wants to hook the fuel and steering to the kicker as well.....

I don't know if we should call it a "100% dive boat". More like a boat that can take us diving when we feel like it because it's going to be a family boat used for all kinds of things. Trying to make it a boat that we can use for almost anything we do and make everyone happy. It would be cool to be able to connect the kicker to the main steering for trolling speeds. Sometimes at night I like to go offshore to use the side imaging sonar to look for new ledges to dive so using a kicker would be perfect for something like that.

Fuzz wrote:At last the most Alaska friendly design on the site in my opinion I will be watching this like a hawk. And you have The Man for over watch so this should be good. Will you be building the long or short cabin version? I am guessing the short for your part of the world.
I just returned from a trip through Prince William Sound and a DE-25 was designed for that place. I could not think of a better fit.
Have fun and please post every picture you can.
Fuzz

It's the long cockpit version. It's a balance between my parents wanting more outside space while my brother and I want a place to get out of the weather when it's not so nice.



We worked on marking up some of the stations for the mold to be cut from OSB today.







The weather hasn't been the nicest around here for the last few days...

Doc dyer. We do need to go spearing. I have not really gone much.... Too many kids getting in the way..... The last time I went was a few months ago with Kyle for a tournament.


Kyle. Looking good!!!!! At this rate it will look like a boat in no time...

Dang Kyle, you are moving fast! If I could you offer any more advice at this point, it's to take your time, measure 3 times before cutting anything. Think it through and know exactly what you need to do before doing it. If you aren't sure, ask questions before proceeding. Somebody here will know the answer.

Doc dyer. We do need to go spearing. I have not really gone much.... Too many kids getting in the way

I talked to that Papa Doc scoundrel yesterday. He's dumping the kids and heading to the Bahamas for a week. He sucks too

A little bit of a learning curve but after help from Cracker Larry things are going smoothly.



We cut the stringers and temporarily nailed them together to keep them in place.



We then drilled 3/8" holes through them to insert dowels to keep the stringer in place while laminating them together.



We roughly cut the dowels into about 3" pieces and rounded the ends of each dowel with sandpaper to make them slide in a little easier.




Then we laid out half of the stringer and inserted the dowels before applying the epoxy glue and putting the two halves together.



We held them together temporarily with roofing tiles placed on top while the epoxy cured.



Cut the dowels flush and filled the gaps in the dowels with epoxy then sanded them.



Then I temporarily clamped the mirror image of each stringer together and used this cool tool to make them true mirrors of each other.



Every once in a while I would slip and smash the back of my hand into the table but eventually the sawdust stopped the bleeding.





Next we cut temporary frames from OSB, Hung the transom and began to assemble the jig.

We glued the side and bottom panels to the transom and secured them with temporary screws while it cured. Then we slowly started to pull the hull panels together starting at the transom using zip ties. The normal ties we were using were rated at 75lb and worked fine from the transom up to about 2/3 of the boat but they kept snapping near the bow. We found 175lb ties and they worked great. Once we got the bow together we mixed up some putty to hold it in place. When that was finished curing we went back and used spring clamps to pull or push the side and bottom panels in or out slightly so they would meet each other uniformly and also not touch each other anywhere. Then we tacked them in place with putty.



Finally we went back, cut the zip ties and filled the rest of the gaps with putty.





Then the whole hull was sanded and the fillets were rounded to make them ready for fiberglass.





We pre cut each piece of sheeting and tape beforehand then primed the hull with epoxy before laying the glass. We were able to get the entire hull glassed wet on wet.





Now we just need to sand the glass and put on the skeg and spray rails. I have a few questions about how far to sand the fiberglass. Should we sand the fiberglass just enough to knock down the threads that hold the weave together or should we sand it until we can see the crosshatch in both directions of the glass?

We're still having fun building it and we came up with a name already! The Grey Ghost!

Very nice pictures and report. Thank you for posting.
Yes, I know about the bow shape on that boat. It was a compromise between ease of building (bending the ply) and performance.
It takes more work during assembly but it pays in performance. That volume in the bow helps a lot in semi-displacement mode.

jacquesmm wrote:Very nice pictures and report. Thank you for posting.
Yes, I know about the bow shape on that boat. It was a compromise between ease of building (bending the ply) and performance.
It takes more work during assembly but it pays in performance. That volume in the bow helps a lot in semi-displacement mode.

Thanks Jacques. We are kicking around the idea of putting the engine on a bracket. Would this be OK with this design or would the center of gravity be disturbed making the transom sit too low in the water?

It should work as long as it is not a 200 HP engine.

jacquesmm wrote:It should work as long as it is not a 200 HP engine.

OK is the largest factor the weight or the power being an issue with 200hp?

The weight but read the reports of other owners, the boat performs very well with a 90.
See a post by David Sours, I'll try to find it.

It was a 115:
http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php ... de25+de+25

Top speed is 30mph+. The boat is designed to cruise between 20 and 25 mph (he shows knots).
That is also the best fuel economy.
Build light, she'll get at 20 mph with a 50.

I think the 115 and the 90's are usually the same blocks, same weight.

jacquesmm wrote:It was a 115:
http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php ... de25+de+25

Top speed is 30mph+. The boat is designed to cruise between 20 and 25 mph (he shows knots).
That is also the best fuel economy.
Build light, she'll get at 20 mph with a 50.

I think the 115 and the 90's are usually the same blocks, same weight.

We're hoping to be able to take this boat diving. We will have 4 people, 6 dive tanks at 50lbs per tank, 100 gallons of fuel and other various gear. Will a 115 not struggle with a heavy load in this boat? We currently have a 198DLX Carolina Skiff with a 115 Yamaha 2 Stroke. When we load that boat and the seas become a little rough sometimes we have issues of bogging down when trying to push up waves.

OK, I forgot that you were discussing heavy loads.

jacquesmm wrote:OK, I forgot that you were discussing heavy loads.

One of the issues is that once you move up to 150HP they use the same block as the 175 and 200. The weight of the new yamaha 150-200HP in-line 4 cylinder engines is 487lbs. The thought is to move the fuel tanks into the cabin in front of the companionway bulkhead but have them sealed off from the interior of the cabin by building boxes around them to be used as benches. This would shift weight forward as well as clear room in the cockpit. Would moving that 100 gallons of fuel or 600lbs forward offset moving the 487lb engine 18" off the transom? Not having to move the false transom forward to clear the tilt of the engine would create a very nice amount more room in the cockpit as well as make a dive platform off the back of the boat. But if placing the engine there would very much hinder performance we can mount it to the transom. It seems that going from a 115 to a 150-200HP adds about 100lbs. To us, fuel efficiency isn't as important as performance. Many things to think about.

I think we discussed that and the conclusion was to move the tank.
The tank is a variable weight and precise calculations don;t make much sense since it's weight will change. To move it as you propose will compensate most of the time and I see no alternatives.
I also remember that we discussed increasing the number of fiberglass layers on the bottom.
A heavier boat needs a stronger bottom.

jacquesmm wrote:I think we discussed that and the conclusion was to move the tank.
The tank is a variable weight and precise calculations don;t make much sense since it's weight will change. To move it as you propose will compensate most of the time and I see no alternatives.
I also remember that we discussed increasing the number of fiberglass layers on the bottom.
A heavier boat needs a stronger bottom.

At the moment we have 5 sheets of cloth for 3 layers and 2 sheets of tape on the bottom. Should we add more to the outside bottom? If so how much more?

It was nice to meet this builder in Homosassa.
Kyle, feel free to post the questions we discussed this week-end.
I remember that I could not answer them all without looking at the plans.

Having used my DE 25 for 4 years now, here are my thoughts on the heavier boat, more horse power issue you were discussing earlier. (MHO).
The first time we took our boat, we took another couple for 4 days. None of us are small people and we had all of our camping gear, food, beer (lot of weight!!) etc, etc. I had dropped the fuel capacity to 52 gallons from the designed 80 (?) to save weight. I also eliminated the water tank (40 gals, 320lbs, under the helm seat) in favor carrying on a couple of gallons. I do have ash trim inside, latex foam cushions and seats, teak and holly sole and other "yachty" touches. The boat performed beautifully with the 115 etec.
I think the MOST important concept to grasp is that this boat has NO "hole". It doesn't wallow at 8 - 13 knots like virtually every other boat out there. The transition from displacement to planning speeds is seamless. The boat maintains the same angle and just goes faster as you advance the throttle. I have no trim tabs and would never dream of adding them.
Even with the weight you're talking about, I think a 200 hp would be a mistake. At MOST, I would look for the lightest 140 (Suzuki?) I could find and then prop it for the weight you're talking about. You could put it on a bracket and move water and/or fuel forward to compensate. I think you'd still get 25-30 top end and good acceleration, even with the people and gear you're talking about.
I just think that you might create more problems than you solve by adding weight to this marvelous design. Again, in my humble opinion.--DS

Thanks David, I like the "marvelous" design comment.
Seriously, meeting him this week-end, I hope that Kyle understood my reluctance to put too much HP on the boat.
That 115 HP Etec weights 375 lbs. The V6 blocks immediately go above 400 lbs, 420 I think.
Let's stay with 375 lbs or less.

Always happy to sing the praises of that design. I'm quite sure that a number of your boats share those wonderful characteristics.
I think a critical piece that some folks miss, is that it is not just putting more weight on the back of the boat, its about putting more weight and placing that weight 3-4 feet BEHIND the transom. With that leverage, it's like putting 600(?) pounds on the transom. I'm sure you can calculate that more accurately, but the point is the same. It's not just how much weight you add, but on a light boat, where you add it. With the load described, if it were me, Id go for the 140 Suzi (or even my 115 etec) propped for the load. There's room for fuel tanks under the galley flat (stbd) and the dinette (port), water under the vee berth. But don't over build it.

I agree Jacques and David. An Etec or Yamaha 115 weigh about 375. For a little more HP a Suzuki 140DF weighs 396. After that we are into the 425's and with some companies 480lbs for a 150hp, way to much. I ran Crouch at 4000lbs with a 115 and came up with 30+mph top speed. With the 140 Suzuki he gains 5 mph.

David I believe you are talking center of gravity and you are right. If he puts his motor on a transom bracket set back 2', he will need to add weight in front of the CG in a proportional amount, 2 x 375 = 750lbs. It doesn't have to be added in one place, but it should be stationary and not gas or water. He would probably like a full width transom bracket for his diving.

Tom

Thanks for the replys, guys. It was very informative talking to you this weekend Jacques.

We would love to be able to put a 115 E-TEC on it. Looking at the 25" shaft 115 it weighs 405lbs. We aren't looking for speed but instead the power to hold the boat on the back side of a wave in a following sea with a fair amount of weight onboard. We want to have enough fuel on board to have a range of about 300 miles. If a 115 would be sufficient for this that would be great.

Here are some "worst case" weights.

Fuel - 110 gallons @ 6.3lbs/gal = 693lbs
Fresh water - 20 gallons @ 8.3lbs/gal = 166lbs
Steel Dive Tanks - 8 @ 50lbs = 400 lbs
Dive Gear - about 200 lbs
Anchor and chain - 100lbs
Electronics - 50lbs
Starting Battery - 40lbs
2 deep cycle batteries - 120 lbs
4 people - 720lbs

Total worst case weight without engine - 2489lbs

The bracket would be an 18" setback from the transom.

We talked about removing the dinette and kitchenette because, for our use, they would not be necessary. So the fuel tanks can be moved into that area to free up floorspace in the cockpit.

Also another consideration is the 115HO E-TEC. The same weight as the normal 115 but with an output closer to 130.

Any input would be much appreciated.

I'm gonna preface this with, "I know nothing, but .............."! I have owned a few boats and am rapidly moving towards completion of my fantasy boat, which will be either a "weapon" (as one of my mates has described it!) or a "dog", if I have butchered one of Jacques' great designs with my modifications.

For what its worth, my 2 cents worth is that it seems to me that you are asking a lot from this boat. If it were me, I would be looking at a 200 hp Yamaha inline 4 cylinder 4 stroke (488 lb) on a hydraulic jacking plate with some set back (6 - 12") rather than an 18 " setback pod. A moderate setback and the hydraulic lift will overcome the issue of the raising the motor interfering with the transom while reducing the moment arm of the OB. A set of trim tabs wouldn't hurt either!

Given the weight of the boat and the load you wish to carry, I think that boat will be under-powered with 115 hp. Personally, given the distances you want to travel, I would rather have a 200hp motor taking it fairly easy than a 115hp motor screaming its poor little heart out!

But that's just me! What would I know?

BarraMan the 200 HP is to much weight for the DE25. The DE25 is an easily driven boat that Jacques designed for lower HP traveling. As he said he wants to keep motor weight around 375. A 115 will drive this boat at cruising speeds very easily. I am a little puzzled also as the Study plans say 200HP while Jacques is now saying 375lbs. Maybe he can explain? It might be the difference between 2stroke and 4stroke weights?

Kyle in my research the HO Etec's have the same HP as the non-HO. The difference is they put a larger bottom gear ration on them. For example the 115 has the same shaft HP of 115 for both the HO and the regular one and the same displacement of 105 cubic inches. The only difference is the final gear ratio 2.44 for the HO vs. 2.25 for the regular 115. You will be able to put a larger prop on but you still will be limited by the HP. The Suzuki DF140A has a final gear ratio of 2.59.

I can do the calculations but right now we are looking at a weight of 2489lbs, 1800-2000 for the hull and around 390 for the motor for a total displacement of over 4700lbs.

Am enjoying watching your build, and hope this helps a little.

Regards, Tom

Tom, I was just giving my opinion. It's worth what was paid for it!

My science background has trained my brain to question what doesn't compute well for me. I struggle to see that an extra 100ibs down the back of a 2000lb boat is gonna make a big difference. May not cruise quite as economically as designed but the OP has said that is not the major consideration.

Lee you may be right when we are looking at over 4700lbs of displacement.

Regards, Tom

200 HP max. would be with the weight of a 2 stroke.

That Etec 130 having the same weight than the 115, I would go for that.

Yes, the long shaft is a little heavier but should be fine.

Listen to Jacques. He designed the boat. If you build it and power it as designed, it will perform as designed. Again, whether you but a 90 hp on it or a 130 on it, it will not "wallow", regardless of your weight (assuming you don't put all the weight on the transom) The heavier boat will use more gas and not go as fast, but it won't "wallow".

Disclaimer: I would prefer to see the boat kept below 4,000 lbs displacement and stay with the 115 engine but this is a special use boat with divers, gear etc.
99% of DE23/25 builders will use the boat for cruising and don't have to worry about more HP and weight.

I ran some figures:

Let's discuss speed and HP first.
The boat is designed for a displacement of 2,800 lbs but I expected builders to build heavier or load the boat above that figure.
One builder (David Sours) posted performance figures and he estimates his displacement to be 3,750 lbs.
From there, we can extrapolate using the Crouch formula.
(Tom, if you play with that, set C = 170).
From his figures, I can also see that the engine is developing about half its nominal HP at 4300 rpm.
Now, I increased displacement to 5,000 lbs and the formula tells me that to get 27 mph, we need 115 HP.
That is at WOT!
Let's run the engine at 4200 rpm and estimate that we get 1/2 nominal HP,
speed is 18.3 mph.
You are still on plane and at 4200 rpm, you have a good reserve of power.
The boat will fall of plane at about 4,000 rpm.
All this is speculation, I should look at the engine manufacturer power curves but since I do not trust them 100% we could just as well estimate.

Now you see why I trust a 115 even for a heavy load.
If I try with a 130 HP (the HO), we get 19.4 mph at 4200 rpm.

Let's compare to a 200 HP running at 4200 rpm (I assume = 1/2 max. HP = 100), speed = 24 mph. At WOT = 34 mph.
34 mph is too much for that boat. The transom will be fine but the bottom will not like it . . .

Do not compare the behavior of the DE25 to an overloaded small Carolina Skiff.
The Skiff is either on plane or bogging down at 5 mph pushing an ugly wave.
The DE25 can move very decently at intermediate speeds (semi-displacement speed) like 12 to 15 mph.
Enough speed to have good steerage and avoid broaching.

With your weight and speed, I recommend to add to the bottom, one layer of biaxial each side for up to 130 HP and 2 layers if you go above 130 HP.

Trim and cockpit depth.
Let's assume that, at rest, the bracket will support most of the engine weight = only small change in trim.
As designed, at 2,800 lbs, the top of the cockpit sole is 1.5" above the DWL.
With a PPI of 600 lbs, at 5,000 lbs, the cockpit is more than 1" under water.
To keep the same drainage safety margin (1.5"), we should raise the cockpit by 2.5".
(PPI increases as WL goes up because of the flare).
Plus, with all the weight, I would love to see a 4 or 5" bridge deck at the cockpit frame. We don't want water going inside.
A drop panel in the companion way is a minimum.
To raise the sole is easy: sister the stringers under the cockpit. That means add a layer on each side and fill the void.
The cockpit will still be deep enough, we start with 28" and can give up 3".

For the running trim, you should move as many weights forward as possible, we discussed that.

Bottom line, I would go for the 115 HO because this is not the same hull than the Carolina Skiff.
Keep in mind that you will not need to run at 27 mph to avoid broaching and that you will not always be loaded to 5,000 lbs BUT
If you feel better with more HP, do it.
I am surprised by the small difference in engine weight but you are correct, I saw the Etec online brochure.

Try to build the boat light. We discussed foam sandwich for the superstructure and I strongly recommend that. I can revise the scantlings for the foam given on the plans, we can save a few pounds there.
Same for the cockpit sole and decks; Make then from honeycomb or foam and you'll save a couple hundred lbs total.

Again, this is not an endorsement of a bigger engine, only some recommendations about how to handle the extra weight and speed.

Thank you very much Jacques! This eliminates our fears of being underpowered. The 115HO should increase the range of the boat over a 200HP too with the same fuel supply as well. I would not mind at all having to step over the raised bridge deck if it means making the boat more seaworthy and raising the sole would actually be beneficial to visibility out of the cockpit when people are sitting in beanbag chairs back there. Also thank you David for the info on the smooth transition up on to plane. Most boats I'm experienced with have to overcome a large bow wave when loaded heavy to get up on plane. Its very exciting to know that this boat doesn't.

Wow Jacques, what a great and thorough clarification/explanation. Marschall, that transition is truly remarkable. For 35 years, I only knew boats that were either displacement or had to climb out of a hole to get on top. The DE 25 has none of that. It defies everything I ever knew. It's maybe the coolest aspect of the design.

Kyle I'm still having a problem seeing where you get 130HP for the HO Etec. Can you show me where you get that. The Evinrude manuals show shaft HP as 115 for both the HO and the regular motor. The difference is the higher gear ration on the HO which is 2.44 which will allow you to put a little higher pitched prop on the HO.

Regards, Tom

Tom i think he is looking at the 135 HO which is built on the v6 block and is actually putting out 148 HP.The weight
is 433 LB with a 25" shaft. The 115 HO is 415 LB but i don't know the rated HP on this one and its a V4 .

I can't find ti anymore but somewhere, I saw specs for a 4 cylinder Etec rated 126 HP.

Yea that's probably the rating for the 115 HO , that would make sense .

The Shaft HP for the 115 HO is listed as 115 HP. Shaft HP is the required listing by NMMA or the NYMA? groups that set the rules for design and testing. If Evinrude's 115HO put out 125HP you can be sure there marketing group would be advertising it and it would be listed in the specs.

I just want Kyle to realize that he is paying for a stronger lower end and some factory tuning when he buys the HO.

Good luck with the 115HO, I hope the tuning part will give it the 126 HP, and I will continue watching your build.

Regards, Tom

Well i guess Evinrude didnt get the memo , they only list 135 HP in the the spec sheet but if you watch
the the video they tell you right out its 148 HP . You know what i was just trying to help you out but you
know everything i am done with you.

Sorry you feel that way Topwater, I do not know everything. But you were comparing the 135HO to the 115HO which is what he is going with. I forgot a short few words in my post last night and have now added them. That is that the factory tuning may increase the HP to 126.

Again apologies for upsetting you, I just like seeing things in writing, My background.

I was hoping that would be my last post on the subject, and I could sit back and watch his build.

Regards, Tom

I believe that the engine manufacturers may deliberately introduce some confusion here.
No need to argue between us about it.

Amen.

Kyle, you did send me a text on my phone and I can't reply. I am very bad with typing on a phone.
Here is the reply:
Your picture shows the opposite of what most builders have there. In most cases we have a little bit of a hook due to the extra glass layers around the transom, you seem to have rocker.
3/16 isn't much but it will hinder performance a little bit.
I would fill that and try to get the last 6' as straight as possible, 1/16 would be great, 1/8 is OK.

I tried to post some pics but could not figure out the code to cut and paste between the image symbols. I put them in the gallery. I had a video of the flip but it did not upload from the apple to this gallery correctly.

Great progress Boy that all looks real familiar to me only bigger .

Any more progress on this one? I love this design and would love to see to outcome.

Just a pic I was texted from Kyle. They are plugging away....

Very nice work

Was over Kyles this Friday and took som lids of the progress. So much for a July splash like he planned

Amazing clean build

Agreed! Very very nice work. Keep the pics coming!

I am pleased as punch to see this thread is still going. I really like the DE-25 and want to watch one going together. Please keep up the posting.

They are plugging away. The weighs the hull prior to putting the cabin walls and roof on. They are using honey comb. The wt is 2176 so far...