Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Posted: **Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:22 am**

Winter project so I can make all my mistakes cheaply and learn the system before building the 1:1 scale. Hopefully build some confidence along the way. A lot of difference between reading and looking at pictures and actually seeing something take (mis-)shape by your own hands.

Got home after work tonight and first project was Building a crystal radio Landon got for Christmas. Unfortunately the only station here is fm and the radio we built only receives am. Was still interesting that you could get static through the speaker considering it uses no batteries or power source.

Then we cleared the table and broke out the balsa and tools and plans.

We cut .8" strips of balsa (1/10th of the 2x8s called for in the plan) and pinned together the strong back. The cutting board has a grid on it which we used to keep it square.

Didn't have any wood glue around and didn't want to test how noxious the epoxy we got is this soon before bed so we called it a night and cleaned up. Will glue it tomorrow and pull the pins.

Posted: **Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:31 am**

Now that is a neat project! I am sure the boy is going to enjoy this as much as you or even more.
You do know this is going to result in extreme BBV right

Posted: **Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:33 am**

Too bad about the radio, that is a great thing to do with your son.

Posted: **Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:35 am**

Posted: **Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:03 am**

narfi wrote:BBV?

Boat Building Virus. We're all infected and it looks like a new case here as well. Very cool, keep posting pictures!

Posted: **Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:31 pm**

Borrowed some glue from work and glued the strong back together on my lunch break.

Added some weight on top till tonight. Probably not necessary but the balsa us so light I wasn't sure if the corners would stay down while the glue set. It's fast stuff so probably pointless......

Lesson learned: if the pins are glued in, twisting them slightly with pliers brakes them free and they pull out easily.

Tonight draw out the panels and cut them.
Then figure out how to "stitch" them 1/10th scale.......
String?
Just tape from the bottom?

Posted: **Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:10 pm**

Got any more of the copper wire you used for the crystal radio? Bet that would work well for the stitches.

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:26 am**

I am thinking anybody who builds a strongback for their scale model is going to build one fine full size boat

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:22 am**

Did more thinking than building tonight.
Got most of the molds drawn out and just one major mistake on "E" after drawing it the V looked too deep and didn't match the appearance in the plans. Redid my math and measured and re-measured and it was all right just looked wrong. Third time measuring I figured I had marked the bottom of the sides above the BL instead of below. Marked again and it looked right.

Then I got distracted reading the plans and confusing myself.....

Questions:
1. The transom is stitched inside the side panels not butted up behind?
2. Both transom clamps are both forward of the transom or one on each side?
3. Are there notches in the stringers or just the molds? It looks like just the molds but not having done it yet "feels" like everything would fit nicely together if both were notched together?
4. I read that stringers are two plus of 9mm? Somehow I had missed this before and thought they were just one sheet thick.
5. The actual bulkheads (Not the moulds) are multi piece between stringers? Guess that would answer question #3.....

@Jacques on page 7/8 of The instructions (both digital and the printed version you sent me) the number of sheets of plywood is missing from the BOM.

Also on page A314/3 mold "D" has a sillouet of the transom offset about 1/3rd The way off with 2 curved lines I don't understand... is it there by mistake or is this something I need to understand?

@Fuzz The goal is to learn the process more than to have a model boat. For me atleast that requires doing all (most) of the steps I will when building 1:1. That way I can ask all these stupid questions now when it's dark and cold instead of when the sun is back and I can be out working on the real thing..... I want to understand as much as possible to prevent any mistakes and delays asking you guys questions. :p

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:34 am**

Had trouble adding this pic to the last post.

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:30 am**

narfi wrote:Did more thinking than building tonight.

Questions:
1. The transom is stitched inside the side panels not butted up behind?
2. Both transom clamps are both forward of the transom or one on each side?
3. Are there notches in the stringers or just the molds? It looks like just the molds but not having done it yet "feels" like everything would fit nicely together if both were notched together?
4. I read that stringers are two plus of 9mm? Somehow I had missed this before and thought they were just one sheet thick.
5. The actual bulkheads (Not the moulds) are multi piece between stringers? Guess that would answer question #3

1. As far as I know all of the transoms fit between the side panels. On all of the builders post I have seen you can see where to side or bottom panels are screwed down just for glueing and then the screws are removed.
2. I have only seen the transom clamps on the inside. If one was on the outside you would not have a smooth/flat transom.
3. ? not sure.
4 The stringers are two layers. That way you can have a lap/offset joint. I think drawing A314/6 shows this.

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:56 pm**

After further research, I believe the stringers are notched 1"

http://bateau2.com/howto/jig.php
Shows cutting notches and fitting them together

The plans page A314/21 titled 'How to notches"
shows the stringers (without notches) and station marks, but off to the side not attached to anything is a diagram of a 1" notch.

cazuza posted a pictures of the cnc kit he received and there is an image of his stringers on the 3rd page,
http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php ... 20#p365564
It shows notches that look to be about 1"

Posted: **Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:12 pm**

So another round of questions about the transom/clamping boards (almost all my questions will be regarding preparation for the 1:1 build)

I don't see instructions on gluing them together, but in build logs see that the boards are primed with epoxy then a layer of epoxy thickened with wood flower is used to glue the layers together and all held down flat with weights on top.
I know that when gluing large flat surfaces together it is easy to trap air and have voids (for example try putting a smartphone screen cover on without bubbles......) is there any concern with this when gluing the transom and clamping boards?
Is there any glass layed up on the transom/clamping boards before stitching it to the bottom and sides, or is it stitched up as bare wood?

Another odd thing I found in my plans (both electronic and printed versions)..... There are two pages from Weekend Boat 12 - WE12, both pages numbered A313/17 but one is in metric and one in standard.

Should I compile some of the oddities i find in the plans and list them in the main FS19 introduction thread?

Posted: **Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:08 am**

Glued the transom and clamping boards together.
Glued the stringers together. (My balsa is long enough I can make them without splices)

Marked and cut notches in the stringers before gluing them.
Marked the stringers notches in the bulkhead molds and cut them out.

Partially assembled jig but had a problem with the stringers. Not sure if I cut them wrong somehow or they warped when gluing but they are bowed up toward the front and have a huge gap above station B bulkhead.

I will attempt to "retrain" the wood with a weight overnight but might have to redo the stringers tomorrow.

Questions:
The motorwell sides are part of the jig?

If they are, how are they attached to the stringers? Is it permanently glued or some temporary assembly?

Which corner of the motorwell sides is square? (It shows the forward being 22" tall and the rear 22 1/2" tall (height not face length))

What is the purpose of having the strong back too short to support the transom while jigging?

Posted: **Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:17 am**

With a full size build the the motor well sides are are located on the jig temporarily to locate the transom .
When you flip the boat you remove them , put in the stringers then glue the motor well sides in permanently.

Posted: **Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:08 pm**

Thanks topwater.

This morning the offending stringer was almost straight. Pinned it down again way past straight and have hopes it will be close enough tonight.

Don't think I'll have any problem with this on the 1:1
I've been finding my fingers are fatter than I thought with small measurements and cuts on this little one.

Posted: **Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:35 pm**

Am I seeing things or did you cut the angle on the back of the stringers the wrong way

Posted: **Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:39 pm**

Fuzz wrote:Am I seeing things or did you cut the angle on the back of the stringers the wrong way

haha oops....
Well that answers that question....... New stringers tonight.

The more mistakes I make now the less ill make on the 1:1 right?

Posted: **Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:44 pm**

Sounds like a good plan to me

The really nice part of this building method is mistakes can be fixed

That is going to be a nice model

Posted: **Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:46 pm**

Lunchbreak.....

Glued two sheets of balsa together and cut out stringers instead of gluing after cutout produced straighter peices.

I did one more with the back angle cut wrong again and figured out why.
I was drawing the stringers out inverted so the straight edge would be nearest me but was not inverting the angle along with it. Doh!

Posted: **Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:38 pm**

Your model looks really good. The FS 19 is my next project once I finish with the canoe I'm building now. Following your thread with great interest. Yours is the first FS 19 Build thread so far I believe.

Posted: **Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:47 pm**

Browndog wrote:Your model looks really good. The FS 19 is my next project once I finish with the canoe I'm building now. Following your thread with great interest. Yours is the first FS 19 Build thread so far I believe.

Have you seen the list of compiled build threads here?
http://forums.bateau2.com/app.php/page/build-threads

There is one FS19 listed as being logged on the forum here, but I have almost caught up to the stage he is at with his CNC cut FS19. His last post was rebuilding the jig, which is kind of where I am

cazuza's FS19 in Washington State
http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=60345

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:26 am**

Finished the proper stringers and notched them. (Messed up and made the notches 2ply thick instead of one like the molds but not too critical for this I don't think.... on the 1:1 Had I done that I could easily have shimmed the notches)

Cut out the vow mold and motorwell side panels and finished assembling the jig.

Cut out the side and bottom panels. Could almost fit one of each on a sheet of balsa so I spliced in the missing corner from scraps to save myself 2 sheets.

.

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:35 am**

Decided to use masking tape to "stitch" the panels together before laying over the jig.

That didn't work so well as it held the panels too tight to lay nicely over the jig. So I removed most of the tape and laid it all over the jig and started "stitching" with tape on the outside.

As you can see that didn't go so well either..... I tried weight on it to get it to lay down and layed over the bulkhead molds sideways....... (to much weight and pushing on them combined with having cut the notches twice as wide as they should have been.. ......

I ended the night with it laying beside the jig and not sure what to do.....
I think the biggest problem is it needs to be "loose" which tape doesn't allow..... I have some copper wire as suggested but fear it is too strong for as light and thin as these panels are.

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:37 am**

Interesting note: Not sure if it's forum software or because I'm using a phone, but I can only upload 3 photos per post.....

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:00 am**

I used copper wire on my FS19 model. Like you imagined, though, it pulled through the balsa at the tips of the hull panels. Working with solid wood like this you could spritz with water and then heat with a hair dryer, that would take some of the fight out of those panels.

Posted: **Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:54 pm**

Played with it a little at lunch trying to coax it into shape.
Really saw how much effect spreading the panels around stations A and B effect the infamous "bow droop"

Cracked a couple of panels trying to force them and so took the whole thing apart to glue the cracks.

Tried a new approach and pinned down just the bottom panels directly on the molds and spritzed hot water over the front that needs to bend more.... Hopefully tonight it will be perfect when I get home...... (hehe.... "perfect")

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:31 am**

Everything just "fell" into place tonight. Pinned and taped it together and everything fit so much nicer. I found the main problem was I had cut a "flat" in the bottom panels around station C which when traced on the other made a symmetrical narrow area on both bottom pieces. When I had taped everything together there wasn't the huge gap needed in that area which forced everything else to fight with each other.

Glued everything I could between the pins and tape.

Will need to get some tape on the inside to backup the filling for those large gaps. There are some microballons I can get from work to mix with the resin... I am hoping I can sand them ok with the bare balsa...... everything feels so fragile still but I want good surfaces and corners when I start laying on the glass.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:22 am**

I bet a little epoxy will stiffen up things nicely.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:23 am**

What weight glass are you planning to use?

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:49 am**

If you're using epoxy and plan to sand, know that there is a huge disparity in hardness between the two and you'll want to use a wood block with the sandpaper to avoid sanding dips in the balsa. Looks like you're doing fine and hopefully having fun and learning a thing or two. I ended up using carpenter's wood filler as a fairing compound since it was easier to work with and the model would never see water.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:45 am**

I have 4oz and 3/4oz and hadn't decided yet..... leaning toward the 4oz because I'm sure we will be rough on it once done..... Landon is a boys boy and rough and tumble is the daily norm.

Yes I was afraid of that for sanding but will still go that route I think. Ill be as careful as I can with my fat fingers with the filling process and hopefully not have too much sanding.

It will see water and it will see a 7yr old boy and it will see a 2yr old pitbull that still thinks it's a puppy. (That = 2x 75lb creatures of chaos!)

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:00 pm**

narfi wrote:
It will see water and it will see a 7yr old boy and it will see a 2yr old pitbull that still thinks it's a puppy. (That = 2x 75lb creatures of chaos!)

My son grew up with a pitbull also. Stuff is going to get broken for sure

Between them I bet a bowling ball is not safe

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:39 pm**

Was surprised at how stiff everything was this morning after the glue set. I am less fearful of sanding now.

Pulled the pins around all the seams out. Some were glued in pretty well but only tore the balsa in one tiny spot. Twisting with pliers before pulling helped a lot.

Took it to work and mixed a tiny batch of resin. Brushed it over all the seams as lightly as possible. Then mixed microballons in till it was pretty thick and spackled it over all the seams and removed as much as possible with a scraper.

I think I should have mixed in more balloons, it was still a little more runny than I think it should have been.

Hopefully it fills the gaps enough on the first try but may have to put a little more in those areas will see once it's cured and sanded.

Then put it in "The Kiln" aka boiler room. It had reached a point I needed to stop poking at it.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:12 pm**

Landon wasn't interested in any of the epoxy work but wanted to start sanding right away on scrap prices.. ...

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:21 pm**

Nice work on the model,something everyone should do before a build.
Talc powder mixed with resin will help with the sagging and easy to sand.
First time I've heard of glassing balsa,looking forward to the results.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:27 pm**

Great project! It is going to let the rest of us see what a full size one will look like.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:40 pm**

When I did mine years ago, I used .060" styrene sheets (the same stuff as car and plane models but in sheet form and "crazy glue" as adhesive). your local hobby shop should carry sheet stock of various thicknesses. Used balsa or beechwood on other models before but spending time forever sealing the grain was too much hassle. For a study model though, balsa is fine

Must be a ton of fun building with your son. That's how I got interested in navy ships and boats doing project with dad

then made a career starting an engineering model shop later on.

Marc

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:46 pm**

Blueflood that is one crazy nice model!

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:52 pm**

Thanks Fuzz. That was just before starting the real thing. It was in my head for ages then found Bateau

I don't have any kids to do these project with

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:59 pm**

Beautiful model Bluewood! Don't think we will achieve that quality of finish

Which boat is it a model of?

As for local hobbyshops.......... there are none. It's Amazon or asking someone in Anchorage to go shopping for me which can be difficult with specifics.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:21 pm**

Hi narfi !

My own design. It was to be built plank on frame but when I found Bateau's HMD19 and stitch & glue, I scrapped that plan and started to build the real thing instead. Sorry about the lack of plastic source in your area

Doesn't matter, keep building to get a feel of the real thing, you are doing great

Marc

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:32 am**

Here is Landon waiting for the epoxy to cure.....

The water hasn't gotten hard yet.... I blame Gore.......

Be too busy with celebrations to sand or progress any tonight

Happy New Year everyone!!!!!

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:28 am**

Looks like a blast !

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:14 am**

Great progress and fun to follow.

Blueflood, that's quite a masterpiece.

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:36 pm**

Narfi, if you ever consider building more models with your son, check out Evergreen. They used to be in Washington state but now in Illinois. That's where I got tons of bulk material supplies, everything styrene related. Sheet stock, sections, tubing etc...Not sure if they sell to the public these days however. Also for modelling tools check out Micro-Mark. You could buy the whole catalogue, real easy

And Plastruct for more stuff...

http://www.evergreenscalemodels.com/
http://www.micromark.com/
https://plastruct.com/

Terrulian thanks but it's just collecting dust here now

Marc

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:21 pm**

Although I could see model making grow into an addiction, I am not planning more at this time.

The 1:1 fs19 is next on the agenda.

Then when it is finished hopefully budget will allow for the next steps planned.

Building a small hangar/workshop.
Buying the plans/kit for the Zenith 750STOL
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch750/ (I don't think the designers here will mind the link as it's not competitive with their products or designs)

: 750-side.jpg (20.75 KiB) Viewed 422 times

: 750kit-layout1-800.jpg (88.15 KiB) Viewed 422 times

I've been an aircraft mechanic for nearly 20yrs and so I won't need to "learn" the system for this one. It is a very simple kit (relativly) with all CNC matched holes etc...
The plan currently is to put a Mazda rotary engine in it. But time will tell what we end up powering it with.

When done with it Landon will be about the age to start learning to fly and he will learn in his own plane that he built

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:07 pm**

Landon will be an old school Alaska kid! Learn to fly before he has a drivers licence

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:10 pm**

Sanded it down and rounded all the corners. The two gaps could have been filled a little more but I cracked one if the bottom panels (with the grain) while sanding and I was afraid of causing more damage before it gets stiff enough, so I prepared for classing the outside.

Decided to stray from the 1:10th a bit in favor of making the model a bit tougher considering it's enviroment. Went with the 4oz cloth and made "tapes" closer to 1" instead of .6"
The

The test run with the epoxy went well yesterday, it has nearly no odor so I brought it all back from the hangar and we are working on the dining room table again.

Primed the entire hull with epoxy and laid the "tapes" down.
2x on the keel, bow, and transom and 1x on the chines. I did the keep and bow as single prices but wonder if it would have laid down better as separate peices.

I also wonder if the wide cloth would have gone on easier in pieces.

There were air bubbles at the underfilled gaps where I expected problems, but was able to chase them out with a brush.... will see if they stay out.
Also had issues at the bow, it's a pretty tight radius and had a pretty big bubble form on each side. I was able to work both out but think they will probably reappear as it cures.

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:12 pm**

One step closer to a plastic boat :p

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:20 am**

That looks good. There's no way to create a big enough radius on a 1/10 scale model for 4 oz. glass to wrap without difficulty; that is one aspect of the full size that will be easier, even with 12 oz. biaxial.

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:09 am**

And now at least a month of sanding

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:16 pm**

Happy to report I woke up this morning and there were no bubbles or raised areas around the bow.
The worst spot was a small bubble at one of the underfilled gap spots but acceptable for a model...

It wasn't fully cured yet.... We don't keep our house at 70f and the epoxy claims 12-15hrs at 73..... I set it in front of the heater hopefully its cured by lunch or tonight when i want to "play" with it.

I am thinking I won't do any sanding yet and get the inside glassed as well. Will make for a stiffer object for me to sand on and less awkward and fragile.

So next step is just to trim the excess cloth hanging down.... get the structure out of the inside and fillet and tape and glass it....

Should I trace the bulkhead on the inside of the hull before removing them? Seems that would be easier than trying to measure everything when I need to put them back in..... though I guess the notches on the stringers help with that somewhat.

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:12 pm**

too cold to cure turned out to be a blessing in disguise......
At lunch break it was about the 20hr mark since mixing and it still wasn't fully cured.

I took the opportunity to cut all the edges off with scissors and remove the bulkheads/stringers.
It was almost too hard for the scissors, so I cut it with a knife around the corners of the transom and bow, but had no problem cutting on the straight edges. (rough cut only ~1/4" beyond the wood)

removing the bulkhead/molds wasn't as easy as I was expecting as resin had soaked through the seams and adhered, I was able to slide a knife in beside them and cut most with difficulty, only stuck the point through the side in one place :/
will need to do some sanding in a few places where chunks of bulkheads left corners attached, hopefully it wont be too difficult...........

Brought it back to work with me and put it in the boiler room, hopefully it will cure better now.

Sorry didn't take any pictures, I was running late.

Posted: **Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:02 pm**

Given how small the part is you are working on I think your glass job looks great. Really surprised you do not have huge bubbles at the chines.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:23 am**

After work I used an angle diegrinder with a sanding pad on it to clean out the rough stuff on the inside. (Gobs of resin drips and broken off pieces of bulkhead stuck to the inside of the hull with epoxy) the hardest was the bow mold as 75% of it had adhered to the bow and each side... I ended up just breaking it out with needlenose pliers and hand sanding down in the corner. I only got the corners roughed out as I planned on fillets covering them.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:32 am**

Then I cut out the tapes and wide cloth. One large piece for the bottom and one for each side and two for the transom.... not sure why I did two I think because it gets two tapes in and out I was thinking two layers of wide as well for some reason..... won't hurt anything here as weight isn't an issue..... But it's not like I'm going to hang a heavy outboard off it either.....

I mixed a small batch of resin and stirred glass bubbles into it until thick. (Don't tell momma I used a butter knife to mix it....)

Then with my finger I did my best to make nice radioused fillets at all the seams.

If I was to do it again I would make the clamping boards same height as the transom.... I think that step and thin top is going to cause me issues once it comes to finishing.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:37 am**

Mixed another batch of epoxy and primed the entire inside.
Then laid in the tapes and then the cloth. Easy to do all wet on wet with something so small.
I think I used way more resin than I should when building the real thing. But couldn't see an easy way to get it out the squeegee is kind of big for the inside of this little guy.

(Brutus can't wait till his new chew toy is ready....)

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:57 am**

Really impressed with how neat your glass work is. Dealing with such small parts has got to be tough.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:07 am**

For future reference you can use colodial silica for mixing up glue. Real light weight and is an awsom gluing mix. It can be used instead of wood flour. especially where you want a clear finish on your edge radiuses. It is cheap and a pound bag of it will fill a half of a garbage can. Maybe not that much but the stuff is amazingly light. Takes a hell of a lot for a 1# of it.

Easy to work with.Bateau carries it.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:15 am**

When gluing two or more surfaces together I take a 4 or 6" wide bondo spreader and if you have one, rather your wife has one, take a pair of pinking scissors and cut the leading edge all the way across the blade of it. This gives you a knotched trowell effect/ Run this on both surfaces to be glued and then press them together and clamp all the way around the piece and clamp or lay a heavy piece in the middle. I also use some drywall screws to pull and press them together. Clean all the edges from glue mix that squeeze out.I like this better than wood flour for this type of gluing mix.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:20 pm**

stickystuff wrote:For future reference you can use colodial silica for mixing up glue. Real light weight and is an awsom gluing mix. It can be used instead of wood flour. especially where you want a clear finish on your edge radiuses. It is cheap and a pound bag of it will fill a half of a garbage can. Maybe not that much but the stuff is amazingly light. Takes a hell of a lot for a 1# of it. Easy to work with.Bateau carries it.

So for fillers/glue there are,

Wood flour - cheap easy to use but hard to sand?
Glass Balloons - light weight and easy to sand but brittle (round structure of the balloons provides nothing to grip?)
Colodial silica - light and doesnt sag...... (is it like glass balloons but more jagged so it grips itself?)
Premixed compounds - cost more but very smooth and easy to use and sand?

Just trying to understand the different methods and advantages/disadvantages to each one for each situation.

I know we need a mix for gluing/filling the gaps between panels when first stitching it together.
I know we need a mix for gluing layers together such as the stringers and transom.
I know we need a mix for fillets to radius corners to allow the glass to lay down nicely. (inside and outside corners where there are gaps?)
I know we need a mix for fairing the entire surface to make it nice and smooth and pretty before painting.......

What is ideal for each of those situations?

Had only been 11hrs or so since mixing when I woke up this morning so the inside was even less cured than the outside was yesterday morning.
I trimmed the excess cloth off with scissors while the resin is still green, it cuts really nicely at that stage. Then brought it to work and put it in the boiler room, might leave it there till tomorrow.... will see how much patience I have tonight and how sticky it still feels....

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:32 am**

A clean workplace is nice for doing tedious work.

Cut the bulkhead down and glued the motorwell sides to the stringers. Then tacked stringers and bulkheads down with ca glue.

I decided my fingers weren't small enough to tape the 1/10th scale stringers and bulkheads down. I sealed them with epoxy and mixed another thick putty mix to fillet them in. I discovered that the epoxy I had already put on worked as a lubricant and made the fillets harder to do than on the dry balsa I had done before on the keep and chines.

It turned into a big mess but eventually got some semblance of fillets in.

That mess wasn't the worst part of the evening.......
I figured out why the epoxy was taking so long to cure....
I had it in my head that it was 3:2 mixing ratio but I double checked the label when I started mixing tonight and it is supposed to be 3:1

So is the entire thing ruined?
It is somewhat cured, I can rap on it with my knuckle and it sounds hard, but it is slightly tacky to touch, feels almost like a thin film on the outside of it even though I have no problems handling it.

Could elevated heat help? Like baking it in the oven at 200f for an hour or two? Have to admit feeling pretty frustrated with myself right now but atleast it's a good lesson for now and hopefully I'll read and double check better on the full scale when I start it.

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:33 am**

This is the epoxy I have been using. A friend picked it up for me in Anchorage a few weeks ago.

Edit:
Well I looked up on their website and they said while it will cure at room temperature you can heat it to 200f (lucky guess by me) for one hour.

I think I will put in the oven for an hour then turn the oven off and go to bed with it still inside.... doesn't seem like it could hurt anything and might help.

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:22 am**

Hope the baking works. You are sure building a nice model. Might try laying another coat with the correct mix over things? Might not help the first layer of epoxy but it might make it stiff enough to work

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:52 am**

Looking good,

Narfi

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:08 am**

narfi wrote:
Could elevated heat help? Like baking it in the oven at 200f for an hour or two? Have to admit feeling pretty frustrated with myself right now but atleast it's a good lesson for now and hopefully I'll read and double check better on the full scale when I start it.

I'm no expert but if it was me I'd leave it at an elevated temp for a while as you suggest. I thought 200 would be too high but you were right on point. From their website:

"Heat Curing - This product will cure at room temperature and does not require heat. Cure time can be reduced by applying mild heat. The higher the curing temperature is, the higher the resulting Heat Deflection Temperature. With a higher temperature cure, a service temperature of 138°F / 59°C can be attained. Allow epoxy to cure for 30 minutes and then cure for 1 hour at 200°F / 93°C. Allow casting to cool to room temperature before handling."

After you do that if it's still tacky use a cloth and lacquer thinner, acetone or alcohol to get as much of the tacky stuff off. Let it dry, then put a thin coat of the proper mix on top. Not sure this would be valid for something structural on a boat without grinding it down as well since you can't be sure it won't delaminate if a layer isn't fully cured, but I don't think it would cause a problem on your model if mostly cured. Even a tossed around model.

Much better to make this mistake on the model, uncured epoxy on a full size fiberglass job is about one of the most frustrating things to deal with in my limited experience with it.

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:53 am**

Much better to make this mistake on the model, uncured epoxy on a full size fiberglass job is about one of the most frustrating things to deal with in my limited experience with it.

...but many of us have been there.

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:15 pm**

Good news and ugly news!!!

Good news is when I woke up this morning the epoxy has cured hard and sandable.

The ugly news is the cyanoacrylite glue I've been using to tack everything together with didn't hold up to the heat. It turned a nasty yellow color and bled out of everywhere. Places where it bled to the surface baked it crusty.

I don't think it's a big deal for this model as structure isn't super critical and I'll be sanding and painting anyways.

Note: just realized I shouldn't have cut the last bulkhead that is part of the motorwell down...... oops.

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:37 pm**

narfi wrote: So for fillers/glue there are,

Wood flour - cheap easy to use but hard to sand?
Glass Balloons - light weight and easy to sand but brittle (round structure of the balloons provides nothing to grip?)
Colodial silica - light and doesnt sag...... (is it like glass balloons but more jagged so it grips itself?)
Premixed compounds - cost more but very smooth and easy to use and sand?

Just trying to understand the different methods and advantages/disadvantages to each one for each situation.

I know we need a mix for gluing/filling the gaps between panels when first stitching it together.
I know we need a mix for gluing layers together such as the stringers and transom.
I know we need a mix for fillets to radius corners to allow the glass to lay down nicely. (inside and outside corners where there are gaps?)
I know we need a mix for fairing the entire surface to make it nice and smooth and pretty before painting.......

What is ideal for each of those situations?

Microfibers - Fine crushed glass which adds a lot of strength. Basically makes a fiberglass filler. Very hard to sand.
Wood flour - A cheap version of microfibers. Still adds strength due to the small fibers, but slightly easier to sand than microfibers.
Glass baloons/microspheres - As you said, lightweight and easy to sand.
Silica - Is just a thickener, makes the epoxy more thixotropic (less saggy).

Companies like West Systems do of course make all sorts of other powders specially for filleting, bonding, fairing etc. but they are basically a mix of the above.

Silica on its own should only be used for slightly thickening epoxy for glueing flat pieces together or filling small gaps (like air bubbles or weave before more glass) as epoxy on its own, even if mixed very stiff with silica, is brittle and can crack. It can be used together with any of the other powders to help stop sagging.

I know we need a mix for gluing/filling the gaps between panels when first stitching it together.
- Microfibers/wood flour on their own, or with a little silica.
I know we need a mix for gluing layers together such as the stringers and transom.
- Neat epoxy on each piece first then a thin layer thickened with a little silica.
I know we need a mix for fillets to radius corners to allow the glass to lay down nicely. (inside and outside corners where there are gaps?)
- Microfibers/wood flour with silica. (Fillets don't need as much strength as the glass provides the structure, so more silica can be used but still with some fibers to tie the mix together)
I know we need a mix for fairing the entire surface to make it nice and smooth and pretty before painting.......
- Microbaloons, with a little silica if needed.

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:41 pm**

Great info, thanks Dave!

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:42 pm**

Started laying the cleats for the floor in.

Do the stringers have cleats added as well? I need to figure that out next I guess.... not sure since they are already two ply thick.

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:36 pm**

Since you are not using standard materials anything offered as an opinion is just that. But I think you have plenty of support there.

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:03 am**

terrulian wrote:Since you are not using standard materials anything offered as an opinion is just that. But I think you have plenty of support there.

I was wondering about for the full scale FS19.

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:10 am**

Finished gluing in the cleats for the floor. (Didn't put any on the stringers though...)

Then cutout the floor panels.

Brutus guarded me from the two demon dogs in the floor the entire time, they just wouldn't back off......

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:21 am**

Coated the bare cleats and bottom of the floor panels then tried a Ziploc with its corner cutout for applying thickened epoxy "glue" to the tops of everything.

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:29 am**

Then filleted around the edges and spread epoxy over the floor followed by a layer of cloth. I didn't do any "tapeing" this time since the weight of cloth is so oversized already.

I was going to let the cloth just hang over the front edge and trim it while green, but decided last minute to fold it down over the bulkhead. It wasn't a perfect plan as it was to sharp and really not prepared for it, but it should be covered and not visible once done.

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:12 am**

As to your cleat question. All the stringers and ribs will need cleats on the full size model.
Love watching this. It is like a full size build on steroids.

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:41 am**

Very cool so far . One question though aren't all the bulkheads suppose to be in the boat before the sole

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:21 am**

topwater wrote:Very cool so far . One question though aren't all the bulkheads suppose to be in the boat before the sole

Yup. The cart before the horse... But I cut them all down to BL instead of just the center ones and I couldn't see a clean way of splicing them once the bottoms were already glued in.

I also wanted to play around with different layout options and tho7ght this would let me visualize better.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:41 am**

Rough sanded the excess cloth off and all the bad lumps on the outside.
Spent a little time trying to trim the excess around the transom where I knew I was going to have issues. Far from pretty but better than I feared. Hopefully I can figure out a way to make it look "ok" eventually in that area.

Landon "forgot" to bring his homework home from school but when I told him he could sand on the boat if he got it done he went back to school and was almost finished by the time I got home.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:46 am**

Is there some sort of online resource for standard demintions for common furniture for boats?
Bench heights and depths
Seat heights depths and widths
Same for consoles etc....????

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:32 am**

You are clearly doing a great job raising your son

He gets his homework done so he can sand on the boat. Me, I had to pay my son to sand on my boat

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:30 pm**

narfi wrote:Is there some sort of online resource for standard demintions for common furniture for boats?
Bench heights and depths
Seat heights depths and widths
Same for consoles etc....????

Narfi as a carpenter standard seat heights are 18" and depths are 20" and widths are 20". But the can vary widely based on what the use is for. Go online and check BassPro or Cabela's for sizes. Bench heights are pretty standard at 18 x 20. Consoles can vary widely. You might want to buy a couple of the console plans here to get an idea of what a standard might be.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:22 am**

Tom is right about seat and bench heights on land; bench and perimeter seating on boats this size will be a bit lower. The smaller the boat the lower you will want to sit.

Posted: **Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:03 am**

Fun picture.... everyone showed up for the high school basketball game.

Landon is really getting into the "what if" of brainstorming layouts. Some of his ideas are even crazier than mine :p

He had the idea of taping cubes so we went with it.

Got the first test layout mostly done....
My guess is you guys will tell me it's too heavy to be realistic (I haven't run any numbers)

The seat cubes are 18" the benches are 18" high and 12" deep.
The "coffins" are 2ft+ tall and 2ft wide on the floor (wider up higher) and roughly 6.5ft long.

The "missions" are all fresh water. Mostly quick day trips around the lake for picknicks or 1-3 night camping trips. Would like to be able to sleep without having to pitch a tent but everything else (fire, eating, hanging out, etc) would be on the beach.

This would let two people sleep up front and one in each coffin.
I am sure as he gets older it will need to carry a moose and some fish as well.

What suggestions would you guys have for a good setup?

Posted: **Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:26 am**

If you plan on sleeping on the boat to keep away from "big Toothy" some sort of pop up canvas over the back deck and some cots would work for a night or two. I would not cripple the boat for a rarely used function. What is your plan for making it easy to get on and off at the beach? Some sort of swim step or bracket would make that part a lot easier.

Posted: **Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:39 am**

I have to admit I don't have a lot of experience with different typed of boats.... 18' lunds and smaller are all I've ever used or really been around.

I was thinking steps on the left side 1/2 cut into the front and 1/2 behind with the windshield there able to swing forward out of the way. This shouldn't be too big to just jump on/off the front and pull it forward on shore should it?

Excuse my poor drawing buy I think it shows what I mean.

Swim platforms are on the back right? I've only ever gone straight onto the beach and then pushed straight back off when leaving. Anything on the back wouldn't seem much help for that but then again I'm pretty clueless :p

Posted: **Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:12 pm**

Posted: **Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:04 pm**

At your age it is probably no big deal. You could do a back flip off the nose and land on dry land. For us Cloofs it becomes a bigger deal. That being said I have yet to see a really good set up for getting on and off the boat on the beach. Some sort of landing craft deal works great but that comes with it own set of problems. I was thinking with a swim step you could swing the stern in to the beach and step on and off easy but then maybe not

Maybe one of the others will have a good idea

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:38 pm**

Fuzz wrote: Some sort of landing craft deal works great but that comes with it own set of problems.

Havent had time to play with the model much this week but have been thinking some....
There is an aluminum weld boat on the lake here that has a landing craft drop down steps on the bow that look really nice.
Is that possible on a boat like the fs19?

I really like the idea of staying light. (as in not going with a bigger C19 etc...)
But at the same time I am really stuck on wanting to be able to camp somewhat protected on it. (still sleeping only)

Different random ideas going through my head......
How do you calculate weight of different finished panels for furniture and decks? (weight of core + weight of glass + weight of epoxy? is that all there is to it?)

For example the finished hull weight as designed is 625lbs. Then add and fuel, people and gear.
Subtract that from designed weight limit and I should have my allotment for furniture, correct?

Suppose I use foam or nidacore for the sole, then I get a 'bonus' weight left over for more furnature?

One idea I had was a 'pop up' for the front deck. A large hatch that folded up and could have canvas snapped to it to give more headroom underneath while 'camping' and easily just closed back down when under way?

I am confused what the 'max' designed weight is.... some places i see 2500 and some 3000 in the fs19 development thread, The study guide doesnt say, while the plans say, "The standard lamination schedule is for a boat built exactly to plans with max. HP 115 and
maximum loads of 2,500 lbs.
For larger engines and heavier loads, double the bottom fiberglass: 2 layers each side."

Of course then you begin entering the 'design spiral' that he talks about, where one change necessitates the next etc. etc....

Another thought I had was with a raised front deck that you plan to walk on, what structure is needed to support it? under the floor you have the 36" bulkheads, I am assuming something similar?

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:30 pm**

narfi wrote:
Fuzz wrote: Some sort of landing craft deal works great but that comes with it own set of problems.
Havent had time to play with the model much this week but have been thinking some....
There is an aluminum weld boat on the lake here that has a landing craft drop down steps on the bow that look really nice.
Is that possible on a boat like the fs19?

Building steps like that would be tough. Depends on how tricky you are
How do you calculate weight of different finished panels for furniture and decks? (weight of core + weight of glass + weight of epoxy? is that all there is to it?) Pretty much.

For example the finished hull weight as designed is 625lbs. Then add and fuel, people and gear.
Subtract that from designed weight limit and I should have my allotment for furniture, correct?

Suppose I use foam or nidacore for the sole, then I get a 'bonus' weight left over for more furnature? You are going to have a tough time saving much weight over wood. Pound for pound wood is one of the strongest things there is.

I am confused what the 'max' designed weight is.... some places i see 2500 and some 3000 in the fs19 development thread, The study guide doesnt say, while the plans say, "The standard lamination schedule is for a boat built exactly to plans with max. HP 115 and
maximum loads of 2,500 lbs.
For larger engines and heavier loads, double the bottom fiberglass: 2 layers each side." JM likes to see his designs built to plan, meaning light. This way they preform with low power. Almost every builder thinks they need to make it stronger and use more glass and epoxy. Me included. This means more power, more fuel, more weight. The old downward spiral deal.

Posted: **Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:31 pm**

As you can see I need lessons on how to quote in my reply

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:29 am**

You can use certain "forum codes" to do certain things such as quote.
Shortcut cheats for the most common ones are setup as buttons at the top of your text entry window.

They each consist of a set of two codes, a start code and and ending code. Each of the two parts are inclosed with square brackets.

The first part is the beginning code and is usually just a word in brackets, the ending one is a slash "/" then the word all enclosed in square brackets.

Example:

Code: Select all

[quote]this is the text that will appear as a quote. [/quote]

The interesting part of that is I was able to show that by enclosing all of that within "code" codes so that it knew not to format what I said and just post it as typed.

So the trick if quoting a long post with your own comments after each paragraph, you will need to break it up into many smaller quotes by adding your own /quote (in brackets) and quote (in brackets)

With a lot of time and patience you can do a lot of interesting formatting with your text on forums. You can see sometimes when people get way to carried away with lots of colors and changes in fonts and sizes and bold etc....

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:40 am**

From the plans (i dont think this gives away any propriatary info i paid for. I do want to ve sensitive to that)

Customization:
The FS19 can be built lighter by using different materials. The first and best place to save
weight is the sole. The sole can be made from honeycomb (Nidacore) or foam sandwich.
The second best place to save weight is the transom. Some type of composite boards for
transoms are lighter than plywood.
More weight saving is possible by using those same materials for the frames, deck and
stringers.

This is what I would like to learn to calculate as it seems that has a large potential impact on furniture layout and final weights.

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:38 am**

Thanks for the forum lesson

I have some 3/4 inch nidacore here. Not sure of the weight but you can pick up a 4x8 sheet with two fingers so it is pretty darn light. The amount of glass and resin you add to it is where the weight will come from.

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:53 am**

Narfi, go to the tutorial section and use the resin calculator. Add the weight of the glass to the resin weight and it should give you an idea to work from.

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:05 pm**

ok, i checked out that calculator and now I am really confused......

I entered 12oz cloth, 36inches by 1yrd (1sq yard) and 50% resin, it gave me an answer of .75lbs which is 1/2 of what I expected.......

I thought that if 50% epoxy then the epoxy weight would be the same as the cloth weight, making the math 12oz + 12oz which is 1.5lbs or 1/2 of the answer I received......

What am I doing wrong?
I thought cloth weight was the weight of one yard by one yard? is that wrong?
Is my understanding of resin ratio wrong?

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:19 pm**

For example.... my understanding that for estimating if you used 50% glass to resin, it made it quite simple..... you just double the weight of the cloth and you have the total weight of the cloth and resin.

Example:
1 square foot of 1/2" Okume is 1.25lbs (without sealing epoxy applied)

1 square foot of 1/2" H80 is .21lbs but requires glass and epoxy

I dont know how much thats something I want to learn......
But suppose 12oz top and bottom, with resin thats 24oz top and bottom or 48oz total per yard /9 and you have .33333 lbs per sqft

so 1sqft of 1/2" H80 with 12oz glass top and bottom comes to just under .55.bs
where 1sqft of 1/2" Okume is 1.25lbs

Thats .7 lbs difference per sqft of sole/deck/flooring whatever you want to call it.

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:47 pm**

Ok, so I found this quote by Jacquesmm

jacquesmm wrote: Anyway, using my table, to replace the 12 mm ply, I get 5/8 core with 20 oz. each side which is very close to the K. Hughes table.
So, use a 5/8 core with on each side, one layer biaxial 45/45 12 oz. and one layer of our 9 or 10 oz. woven.
If you want to do it in one shot: one layer 1708 each side is fine. It's only a sole.

I did the math with a standard span of 24x36" edge supported, loaded with 4 men, 35 mph in a chop and get the same result or a littler less.

I do not understand the differences in needs for weights of foam, but they do mention using H45 in that thread, so using those weights to replace the 1/2 inch plywood.........

5/8" H45 nidacore is .18lbs per sq foot
22 oz worth of cloth on each side (12+10) = 44 + 44 in resin = 88 /9 = .611 lbs of glass/resin

.611 + .18 = just under .8lbs per sq foot compared to the 1.25lbs for 1/2" Okume is a savings of .45lbs per sq foot not considering the weight the sealing epoxy you would need to put on the bare wood.

Using one layer of 1708 on each side of 5/8" H45 comes to .875lbs sqft or a savings of .375lbs over 1/2 Okume

Posted: **Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:05 pm**

I believe your thinking is correct but I am not sure.
Post this question with what you have done here in the power boat section. JM does not always check this section but he looks at that one. Best to get the correct answer from him.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:53 am**

A few things to note, some of it you seem to have been pressing on, I may not get it all correct, but if not someone will chime in.

Plywood and foam thicknesses do not exactly exchange. I was told a while back that to replace plywood with composite core you need to multiply the thickness by at least 1.5 and round up. So if you are using 1/2" plywood, then you would need 3/4" foam core. If using 3/8" ply then you would need 5/8" foam core............

Also, and I can tell you this from person experiments, you need more glass on foam core for puncture resistance. With plywood decks you might be able to get away with a layer of 6oz cloth, but on foam core you will probably need at least double that.

Once you add all that up you will see the weights are not far off. That's the reason they say it's not worth it to build a smaller boat with the more expensive composites.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:32 pm**

I will chime in since I have a little experience on foam.

I find foam core to be much stiffer and can still be lighter than ply of equal thickness depending on your laminate schedule. I was able to use less framing and span larger distances which saved weight but it all depends on the design. My boat is all foam but I went kind of heavy on the glass for the hull so I don't think I saved much weight.

I built an XF20 and that huge flat bottom needs weight or else you pound a lot. The more weight I have on that boat the better it rides. I noticed that my speed doesn't change much either loaded or light, because it's form drag which seems to be more important. My top speed with good conditions is 36 mph alone and I lose maybe 3 mph with 5 more people on board. I'm also propped for low and midrange because any faster and that boat is out of control.

The point I guess is, I wouldn't get too hung up on weight, 50 or 100 pounds either way is not going to make a huge difference in speed but could help you in comfort.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:38 pm**

narfi wrote:ok, i checked out that calculator and now I am really confused......

I entered 12oz cloth, 36inches by 1yrd (1sq yard) and 50% resin, it gave me an answer of .75lbs which is 1/2 of what I expected.......

I thought that if 50% epoxy then the epoxy weight would be the same as the cloth weight, making the math 12oz + 12oz which is 1.5lbs or 1/2 of the answer I received......

What am I doing wrong?
I thought cloth weight was the weight of one yard by one yard? is that wrong?
Is my understanding of resin ratio wrong?

Narfi a yard of cloth is 50" wide x 36" long so that is your error. So when you lay out your cloth on your boat you will have enough to cover the bottom over the chine and up the sides a few inches.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:07 pm**

narfi wrote:Ok, so I found this quote by Jacquesmm

jacquesmm wrote: Anyway, using my table, to replace the 12 mm ply, I get 5/8 core with 20 oz. each side which is very close to the K. Hughes table.
So, use a 5/8 core with on each side, one layer biaxial 45/45 12 oz. and one layer of our 9 or 10 oz. woven.
If you want to do it in one shot: one layer 1708 each side is fine. It's only a sole.

I did the math with a standard span of 24x36" edge supported, loaded with 4 men, 35 mph in a chop and get the same result or a littler less.
I do not understand the differences in needs for weights of foam, but they do mention using H45 in that thread, so using those weights to replace the 1/2 inch plywood.........

5/8" H45 nidacore is .18lbs per sq foot
22 oz worth of cloth on each side (12+10) = 44 + 44 in resin = 88 /9 = .611 lbs of glass/resin

.611 + .18 = just under .8lbs per sq foot compared to the 1.25lbs for 1/2" Okume is a savings of .45lbs per sq foot not considering the weight the sealing epoxy you would need to put on the bare wood.

Using one layer of 1708 on each side of 5/8" H45 comes to .875lbs sqft or a savings of .375lbs over 1/2 Okume

If your using 1708 double or even triple your epoxy use. First you have to saturate the 8oz. mat then instead of 12oz. biaxial you are filling 17oz. biaxial. Don't forget your cloth per yard is 50x36.

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:41 pm**

TomW1 wrote:
Narfi a yard of cloth is 50" wide x 36" long so that is your error. So when you lay out your cloth on your boat you will have enough to cover the bottom over the chine and up the sides a few inches.

I understand that, but thought that the weight classification was for 1 square yard?
12oz cloth is weights 12oz for a 36"x36" peice, a 6oz cloth will weight 6oz for a sq yard, etc....??

Posted: **Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:49 pm**

Wont have time to study (play) with this for the weekend, Flying into town with Landon to get his passport done. (cruising to mexico in the spring!)
Taking him to an Aces game and some fun stuff, then way too much shopping

I think I have asked enough stupid questions, now I just need to sit down and do some basic math and rough estimates on weights to see what sort of room I have to play with.... Next week!

Posted: **Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:31 am**

Ok. I'm an idiot.....

Had to get up early to check generators this morning and had an hour before work so I dug the model out and a steel rule to take measurements......

I built the hull fine to scale as the plans are in inches I just decided inches by 10.
However when I started laying in the cardboard template layout ideas my brain skipped a cog and started thinking 1/10 of a foot was 1 inch. Obviously an inch is 1/12 an inch...... oops...

No harm done. It was just cardboard and tape. But I feel about as stupid as mixing the 3:1 epoxy at 3:2 and not knowing why it wouldn't cure......

Amazing how the brain works, once you are convinced of something you never question it again and thus begins a series of mistakes you should be doubting and checking but arent.

I really like the clean computer drawings the guy is doing for fs17 layout ideas. I might have to learn how to do that.....

Calculations I did yesterday based on my bad math ended up with a total weight of 1500lbs with this layout in foam with foam sole. And 1650 in plywood and plywood sole.

That's including 365lb motor and 40gal of fuel, 20lb tank (Probably high estimate??) a 100lb battery and cables and 50lbs of electronics etc... in the console.

My guess is the foam estimate is a bit low and plywood is a bit high so really you were all right that the difference is fairly small. However I was also correct that if I want that much stuff and come in around 1500lbs allowing for 1000lbs of people + gear I would need to use foam or some other means of lightning the project.

For this example comparing 1500 and 1650 is fairly close but the difference between 1000 and 850 usable is significant.

Will work more on figures using better math this time....

Posted: **Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:12 pm**

My dory weighted 1750 all up. 50HP outboard, 5 HP kicker, gas and all the other stuff included. I have run it with well over 1000 lbs of people in it and still ran in the low 20s. I know the dory is a bigger boat but all in all I think they are pretty close to each other.

Posted: **Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:08 pm**

Which Dory did you make? You do a build thread here about it?

I think I just figured out one of my major hickups in the learning curve....
I had it in my head that DWL was designed weight limit, but its not, its Designed Water Line........ doh!

So if the Displacement at the DWL is 2500lbs, then that means that sitting still, the bottom of the sole will be level with the water if total weight is 2500lbs and it is properly balanced?

So with the drains above the floor/sole plugged, what is a reasonable weight limit? I think maybe I was being too restrictive just by not understanding some of the basic terms o.0

Posted: **Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:47 pm**

Or maybe I was right the first time....

From Plans wrote: The standard lamination schedule is for a boat built exactly to plans with max. HP 115 and
maximum loads of 2,500 lbs.
For larger engines and heavier loads, double the bottom fiberglass: 2 layers each side.

Posted: **Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:43 pm**

Doing some quick and dirty math. Water =62 pounds per cubit foot. If your FS 19 is 6 foot by 15 foot at the water line you have 90 sq foot of area. To push that down one foot it will take 5580 pounds. I do not think you are going to have a problem being able to haul the weight. Volume maybe

Posted: **Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:21 am**

Fuzz wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:12 pm My dory weighted 1750 all up. 50HP outboard, 5 HP kicker, gas and all the other stuff included. I have run it with well over 1000 lbs of people in it and still ran in the low 20s. I know the dory is a bigger boat but all in all I think they are pretty close to each other.

OD18 displaces 1630 at DWL.
1750+1k is 2750 or 1120 more lbs.
OD18 PPI is 322 so just under four inches above the DWL when you were loaded like that?

That gives me a lot more confidence as most of the time (If my calculations are right) I'll be lighter than the DWL displacement weight of 2500.

I think with careful work I could keep the fueled and equipped total under 1650ish even with a closed bow and double console + rear bench. I'll have to do more math when I'm more awake to verify though:p

That gives me 850lbs for day to day running around while still staying under 2500 self draining weight and no problem with 1000-1500 for group camping trips.

Posted: **Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:46 pm**

I know you were talking about a boarding ladder a while back. There was an episode of Florida Sportsman: project dreamboat where they customized a typical transom ladder into the bow of the boat. I don't think it would be that difficult, just take some time.

Posted: **Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:12 pm**

Thanks I'll have to look up the episode and watch it.

Posted: **Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:29 pm**

I have a three step boarding ladder on my OD18 that I bought from Cracker Larry. I tried to post a pic but just couldn't.

As far as wood vs. foam goes you will gain only a 25 to 50 lb weight savings if that with foam costing you 2-3 times more. This is true for any small boat under 23' when you get to that size you can start to realize savings in weight and costs start evening out.

.

Posted: **Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:23 pm**

Hey Narfi,
I think after reading your questions about weight I think I understand now. You are thinking with your pilots brain. Boat is not the same. If you overload it it will not preform as well and will sit lower in the water but it is not going to stall and fall out of the sky

Posted: **Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:30 pm**

That may very well be my problem

Posted: **Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:07 pm**

@silentneko I watched the episode but not much info other than that they installed one. Certainly something I'm interested in pursuing further though.

@TomW1 how do you use your ladder over the bow?

Posted: **Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:19 pm**

Sorry Narfi I wasn't clear the ladder is on the transom left of the motor.

Posted: **Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:22 pm**

Ah ok... Ice water here I don't plan on doing that much.

Though the kids never seem to mind.

I want to step on dry land or shallow water.

Posted: **Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:50 pm**

Wife likes the look of this layout which goes a long ways towards final decisions.....

Front seats are 18" squares and back bench is 16x16 deep and tall.
30 to 32" under the front should be plenty for sleeping in.

Still need to figure out steps over and through...... I want it to be easy enough to get in and out rather I'm by myself or with a group.

Posted: **Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:14 am**

I like it.

Posted: **Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:50 pm**

found this on the internet, it looks like a pretty slick system.

I am not worried so much about myself, I have a few more years of jumping in and out ahead of me, but I am sure ill have young ones (and old ones) that will need an easier way in and out.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:23 am**

If you don't care about being super slick, there is a more bulky, but useful solution. I've seen the scalloping guides here actually have a sort of staircase hinged on their front decks so the snorkelers can easily reboard. This way families with young and old can join in.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:26 am**

At this stage I'm interested in all options.
Do you have any pics of what you are talking about?

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:41 pm**

Looks like they were using pontoon stairs. Some were off the sides of carolling skiffs. Some where made of wood.

http://www.petclassics.com/Water-Ramps- ... rs.98.html

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:15 pm**

narfi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:50 pm
found this on the internet, it looks like a pretty slick system.

I am not worried so much about myself, I have a few more years of jumping in and out ahead of me, but I am sure ill have young ones (and old ones) that will need an easier way in and out.

Neat looking set up. Just have to make sure ladder is wider than anchor.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:23 pm**

Got a message from Fuzz this morning asking about progress....

Haven't had much time lately but its still on my mind.

View out the window listening to the sermon this morning.

Been thinking about needs and wants and second guessing myself on boat choices some more.

I have a lot of good memories in my younger years running around in 14-18ft skiffs on the lake. Going downlake with a buddy 30 miles to another village and playing basketball there then wind picking up and getting stuck till morning and waking up early trying to get back to work on time. Etc .....

Was talking to fuzz and he asked me "do you really need more than one boat?"

For Landon over the next 15years I'm sure that the smallest engine possible will get him the most hours on the lake. Fuel is money and I'm more likely to be filling a small tank for him to play than a big one.

However a bigger boat for weekend trips is the only way to get my wife interested.....

I see budgeting as a two part problem.
1. Cost of time and money now.
2. Cost of time and money over time.

One thought was to build the fs19 bare bones to start with and add more up top as a later project after using it a couple years.

One thought was build an open deck fs17 first which would be a faster cheaper build with a cheaper motor and build something bigger in a few years with a bigger budget. Something with a cabin and toilet.... wife mentioned a few days ago (again) that she's not going camping with us unless there is a toilet.

One thought is to compromise with something like the c17 which looks about as small as you can go with a tiny cabin on the front.

Or I could just keep with my current train of thought with putting something as light and simple on the fs19 for what still seems to be my favorite compromise.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:39 pm**

Your problem has got me thinking

Seems to me like Landon is going to need a boat for him and his buddies sooner or later. So how about building him something like a GV-13? You get to learn and then plan out what will really make you AND the BOSS happy. Just a thought to make you a little more crazy

Posted: **Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:32 pm**

So...... pros and cons between garvy 13 and fs14? They seem to have a similar BOM.

Thinking about a young boy on a big lake often alone or with a couple friends. Again always on beaches, gravel and boulders.....

Posted: **Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:56 pm**

Hehe I just did a search on the forum here for "gv13 vs fs14" and the fairly unanimous answer seems to be fs17.......

I wonder if I'm the most indecisive person to register here?

One big advantage I see to building a small boat first (which I think will be well used) is that hopefully within a few years I can budget a hangar/workshop. I think I would be alot more ok building a smaller "quicker project" outside and then later build a multi-year project inside...... not sure how big a deal that is but its something I worry about.

Summer is my buissest time for work and while I do have 23hrs of sun I also have fewer hours awake away from work........ And winter outside isn't possible. ......

Posted: **Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:42 pm**

GV-13 is a bigger boat than a FS-14. Either way my thought was along the lines of something you are not going to panic over every time Landon runs her up on the beach at half throttle and piles out. And you know with a boy this is going to happen

Posted: **Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:46 pm**

Fuzz wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:42 pm And you know with a boy this is going to happen

But who will do it more? Him or his dad?........

every time i get on our Honda i feel 16 again..... kids caught me spinning doughnuts in front of the school a couple weeks ago, was dark out so I didnt think anyone was around but guess they were getting out of basketball practice....

Posted: **Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:57 am**

Landon: "Dad?"
Me: "Yes?"

L: can we name the boat?
Me: sure. What would you like to call it?

Him: silently digs out the tape and scissors and gets to work.....

DLA are the each of our first initials.
I'm not sure how naming conventions work or if he will stick with the idea but it doesn't seem too bad an idea. The purpose is family bonding after all

Posted: **Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:00 am**

DLA is kind of hard to pronounce, what if you turn the initials around and call it "LAD"?

Posted: **Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:24 pm**

pee wee wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:00 am DLA is kind of hard to pronounce, what if you turn the initials around and call it "LAD"?

Great minds think alike there Peewee!

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:58 am**

We had dinner at a buddies house tonight. They are moving to Georgia and he has started browsing the plans here after seeing the model Landon and I are making.

He really likes the 25ft Carolina Sportfish and we spent some time watching the bateau youtube playlist while letting or steaks settle enough for desert.

I didn't even know there was a bateau youtube playlist..... I'm gonna have to watch it all now ...........

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:49 pm**

Make sure he looks up and goes through Peter-curacao's CS25 build. It shows a lot of good and a few do not's.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:42 pm**

Took a picture of this today......

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:52 pm**

Narfi, that is a huge amount of snow!!! Jeff

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:28 pm**

If constructed correctly that is a great way of dealing with the whole getting on/off the boat deal. I think no big deal using aluminium but might take a little pre planning when using plywood.
Looks like we both have about the same amount of snow. Was it snow blowing off the mountain today or was she doing a little steaming?

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:02 pm**

Snowed quite a bit a few days ago but is cold and drifted today. I work for the electric company on the side here so last day of the month I drive my Honda 4wheeler around reading all the meters. I didn't get stick but got close a few times and hiked in some driveways that looked iffy.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:25 pm**

Mountain must be restless. We just had a 5.6 shaker. Can you see Redoubt from where you are?

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:35 pm**

Fuzz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:25 pm Mountain must be restless. We just had a 5.6 shaker. Can you see Redoubt from where you are?

I can't. But I felt it too.. thought someone had drove the fuel truck into the side of the hanger or something. But wife texted me emediatly which ruled out that theory.

Posted: **Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:58 am**

Anyone have any experience with the shelterlogic shelters?

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Landon's 1/10th Scale FS19 Model

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