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TW28

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:30 am
by Macca
Here are some pics.
Hope this worked.
http://gallery.bateau2.com/thumbnails.p ... y&uid=3526

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:24 am
by kiwi
:!: set mode to envy...

Tony

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:05 am
by tech_support
Looking good, thank youfor the pictures. Great work space too :D

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:38 am
by Steve in Spring Hill
Wow seeing my dream boat in progress, looking great.

Later............Steve

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:04 am
by jasonmcintosh
Fantastic! Thank you very much for the pictures.

So, the keel is hollow? I imagined it to be solid. Will it be filled with ballast when done? What kind of ballast goes in there?

Jason

PS: Fantastic...

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:08 am
by Lackofdistinction
Must be difficult to work in such a cramped space!
:lol:

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:20 pm
by jasonmcintosh
I'm still curious about the keel.

How big of a prop goes on it? Isn't the keel's width pretty wide and will interfer with the water flow around the prop?

Jason

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:31 am
by Jonnas
jasonmcintosh wrote:I'm still curious about the keel.

How big of a prop goes on it? Isn't the keel's width pretty wide and will interfer with the water flow around the prop?

Jason
From the study plans:

"One particularity of this design is the relatively wide box keel somewhat in the style of the Jersey skiffs. W. Atkins was a great believer in that feature and we have used it on long range sailboats between 32 and 65 feet.
That keel is a NACA profile and has very little drag. It is easier to build than a keel with outside ballast and allows us to install the engine very low. This gives a shallow shaft angle which is more efficient and the low engine installation angle gives better lubrication, extends engine life. Plus, it lowers the engine weight and gives easy access to trim ballast.
Access to the shaft coupling and stuffing box is also much easier than on most boats."

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:10 am
by Macca
jasonmcintosh wrote:I'm still curious about the keel.

How big of a prop goes on it? Isn't the keel's width pretty wide and will interfer with the water flow around the prop?

Jason
Hi Jason,

I brought a Vetus 42hp and requested Vetus to specify prop size and pitch. They came up with a 18" dia prop with a 11
deg pitch. They also suggested that a cruising speed of around 9kn would be achievable based on the hull design. 7kn or 9kn I don't care, I'm not in a hurry.
As for the keel width the boys from Bateau used a NACA profile which is also used to design rudders. After a bit of research I came to the conclusion that it acts a bit like a wing on a plane. Although it doesn't create lift it does create a push effect as water passes over the widest part of the keel resulting in very little drag. As this design (NACA) is not new I feel confident it won't interfere with the flow of water around the prop.

Macca

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:05 am
by jasonmcintosh
Macca wrote:As for the keel width the boys from Bateau used a NACA profile which is also used to design rudders.
The profile looks great to me. What I was wondering about is how wide the keel is just infront of the prop. I was thinking that it continued to be wide all the way back and your pictures didn't show it from an angle so I couldn't tell. But the study plans show some framing that has it narrowing again before you get to the prop. I'm not questioning the plans so much as trying to understand the boat.

Looks like you're doing a fantastic job. Please keep the pictures coming, I think we all REALLY appreciate them. I'd also love to hear about how you're handling the size issues in building a very big boat. Can't wait to see how you flip it.

Where do you plan on using it? Any lengthy voyages planned?

Jason

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:09 am
by jacquesmm
jasonmcintosh wrote: What I was wondering about is how wide the keel is just infront of the prop.
It is just right. I designed many boats with that type of keel, almost all larger than the TW28. In a 40', I had keels up to 3' wide.
There is more drag with a 4" wide ugly box than with a 48" wide nice NACA profile.
And the width at the stern gland is the same than with a "thin" keel.

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:46 am
by Salty Dog
Sleepless inspiration to see what it will look like, great work.

If I might ask, how many hours do you have into the project to the last picture?

Cheers-

S.D.

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:15 pm
by Salty Dog
Skeg looks great. Did you cut it yourself, or, have it shop cut? Recommendations to best path?

Love to see a profile of the interface between the newly applied SS and wood.

Another sleepless TW28 evening........

Cheers-

S.D.

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:47 pm
by Wilfried
Hi Macca,
Thx for all the pixs, every day I'm checking after new pics from your TW28. You are doing a fine job. Me too I will build one, but it will be a workboat version to fish and to troll on the north sea.
I wonder if its possible to build with twin keels together with the normal keel, we have a lot of sand banks here who come dry by low water, and there we go after the worms (or how do you call that in English ?)
Good luck and keep going
Wilfried

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:01 pm
by jacquesmm
Wilfried, the TW28 can dry out with the tide on its wide keel, at an angle of max. 15 degrees, up to 25 degrees depending on the load.
I don't know where you would do that in Belgium except in Blankenberghe or in the Schelde estuary but it is great for some UK ports like all the ones around the Thames. And also Gravelines on the French side.

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:02 pm
by Wilfried
Jacques,
I'm living near "Breskens" that means the Schelde estuary . She will not fal to the left or to the right ? Great.
Wilfried

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:02 am
by jacquesmm
OK then.
There is a limit to the stability. Even with a high center of gravity, 15 degrees is fine. With all the weights low, let's say up to 25 degrees.

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:05 pm
by Macca
S.D. I used Autosketch to draw the keel bottom but I increased the dimensions by 25mm (1"). Emailed the file to a fabricator and two days latter it was delivered and fit perfectly.
I started the project on the 31st of August this year. I can't even guess the number of hours but I do know I'll be up to this stage in half the time with the next one.
Tomorrow, the 24th of Dec, I will be applying the first coat of Interprotect. I would like to get the second coat on the next day but the handbrake (wife) has put the foot down and insisted I spend xmas day at home.
I have posted a side view of the skeg on the gallery.

Macca[/quote]

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:42 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Great work, again. Thank you for the picture, bang on fit, you might argue, but, the underside finish is looking perfect. Not yet having benefit of the plan set yet (February), I'll apologize in advance for the ignorant and stupid questions I may bleat. The stainless and 25 millie over...did you have concerns over the design, or, see it as a bit of added comfort to the waters you'll be sailing?

I've been an AutoCad faithful from release beta -11, but will be re-upping with SolidWorks, also anticipating what you have employed as a very valuable tool in adapting design, improving fit, finish and schedule.

You mention the "next" one......are you looking at doing another?

Your bride is only looking out for your mutual best. I've begun to pay slightly more attention from the day that mine had paddle-locked my shop primary power switch, "OFF". While I applauded her cunning ingenuity, I was negotiated to improving the frequency of my personal hygiene, and, a few quiet dinners, with her. Power up.

Have a great Christmas day, keep up the great work on the '28.

Cheers-

S.D.

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:15 am
by jacquesmm
What you are calling a skeg in the discussion is a keel shoe.
We don't show any in our plans. I prefer to design a heavy keel with lots of laminations.
It's a matter of personal preferences, some people like those keel shoes but they come from the time of wooden boats. On a fiberglass boat, I prefer to add fiberglass but this is your boat.
Those details can be customized to fit the builders preference, no problem.

I think Macca added 1" because the plans give the dimensions of the plywood. Add the heavy fiberglass laminations and the keel becomes 1" wider.

Next time, ask for a DXF. We are reluctant to give out complete plans in DXF but if we see that the builder needs a part in CAD for customization, we'll give it to him.

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:40 pm
by Wilfried
Macca,

How did you fixed that stanley steel ?
Like I see on the pic it's in one part, but how thick is it ?

Wilfried

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:19 pm
by Macca
"skeg
n. short fin, projection or brace at rear of keel of a sailing boat; fin at rear of surfboard."

You are right Jacques it is not a skeg but technicaly it's not a shoe either as it doesn't have sides. It's a 3mm 316 marine grade stainless steel plate adhered to the keel using Sika Sikaflex-292. http://www.sika.com.au/cmi/marine_products.htm

Why?
1. The marine surveyer suggested a shoe for protection when the TW28 is on a hardstand. I didn't want to compromise the keel lines so we settled on a 3mm 316 marine grade stainless steel plate. As he is the bloke who signs off on the survey certificate I like to stay on his good side.
2. Moreton Bay, where I intend to spend a lot of my time, is shallow in most parts and has shifting sand and mud banks. The 3mm 316 marine grade stainless steel plate should offer a little more protection when I find one.
3. The study plans state "This hull is designed to have around 2,000 lbs of ballast, some of it is trim ballast." The 3mm 316 marine grade stainless steel plate weighs in around 110lbs. Extra weight in the keel will help to cut down on ballast.

Macca

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:17 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Saw the new pics posted, they look great. That's alot of skin to cover, you sure she didn't let you get in a few hours on Christmas?

Looks like you'll be ready soon for the plated keel to see concrete. Great job again, look forward to your next few pics as you forge on.

Cheers-

S.D.

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:11 am
by Wilfried
Macca,

Nice pic's again. What a ship !!! Good luck with the roll over.

Wilfried

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:48 am
by Lackofdistinction
Why did you use stainless? Instead of Iron.

My understanding with stainless steel is that if it isn't exposed to oxigen it will corode. Or am I speaking of a urban myth. :)

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:20 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

The paint has really helped to define it, it's looking great, even with the current stargazing keel. Of all of it, rolling to upright is the part that will also have me the most concerned. Enough prep, and it should behave predictably, all good. I'd help if I were in the AU neighborhood. Great job again, you're moving along at a good pace, just curious, is it just you, or, do you have others to help on occasion?

Cheers-

S.D.

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:32 pm
by tech_support
Lackofdistinction wrote:Why did you use stainless? Instead of Iron.

My understanding with stainless steel is that if it isn't exposed to oxigen it will corode. Or am I speaking of a urban myth. :)
Thats why you dont use stainless fasteners under fiberglass - you use silca-bronze

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:37 pm
by rjezuit
The reason stainless is "stainless" is that an oxide coating builds up when it is expsoed to oxygen. That is what stops the corrosion. No oxygen, no oxide coating, but theoretically no oxygen, no oxidation (rust). Rick

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:45 pm
by Lackofdistinction
Thats why I was curious about his use of a very expensive peice of stainless plate for his skeg when he could have used Iron or concrete like most production sailboats do? Any Ideas on Concrete?

But, oxidation is not the only cause of corosion how bout Electrolosys.
Sorry terrible speller :oops:

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:09 pm
by jacquesmm
SS will have excellent resistance to abrasion and this builder may have had access to inexpensive SS.
In most cases extra layers of glass are the best way to go but this keel already covred, on the outside, with 3/4" fiberglass!!
That's as much as I had on my sailing SUV (my last big sailboat) and I crushed my share of reefs with it.

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:01 pm
by rjezuit
For electrolysis to occur you need two dissimilar metals, an anode and cathode. If you only have one metal you cannot get electrolysis. That is why the have sacrifical anodes on hot water tanks, and boat motors. The anode is more reactive and corrodes in place of the part you are protecting

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:35 pm
by Lackofdistinction
Totally right if its totally encased slipped on that one. This is off subject but most sailboats will ground the Keel to the Mast.

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:08 pm
by Cracker Larry
On most powerboats also, such as the TW 28, the mast should also be grounded to the keel (assuming you are building it with the staysail option), and the engine, and the through hull fittings and the rudder and the strut, and the keel cooler, and whatever else you can. Bond everything to everything.

As stated above, electrolysis is caused by 2 dissimilar metals, let me add, separated by a dielectric. The dielectric in this case being salt water. If you don't have dialectric separation electrolysis cannot occur. Hence the bonding.

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:03 am
by kiwi
Cracker Larry wrote:On most powerboats also, such as the TW 28, the mast should also be grounded to the keel (assuming you are building it with the staysail option), ...
Wooden mast grounded to keel? Mine will be a wooden two part mast with synthetic stays. Going to have a hard time grounding that... How does one ground a Carbon fibre mast BTW?

Tony
(sailed in thunderstorms on beach cat - explains hair loss :D )

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:54 am
by Lackofdistinction
So you won't have a aneometer or a Radio Antenna on your mast?? :o

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:54 am
by kiwi
That isn't the mast. That is electronics, they will be going to ground.

Is it neccessary to have a lightning rod on a wooden mast to preserve antenna etc? A carbon fibre mast is a lightning rod all by itself.

Tony

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:00 am
by jacquesmm
kiwi wrote: How does one ground a Carbon fibre mast BTW?

Tony
(sailed in thunderstorms on beach cat - explains hair loss :D )
With a big fat wide copper braid to a Dynaplate or similar.

You could try to lead it to the keel bolts :P :P :P :P

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:05 pm
by Cracker Larry
Jacques answered, but let me add that carbon fiber is extremely conductive! Drill and tap it for a ground bond.

On a wooden mast I would run a big fat copper braid to the masthead.

What are synthetic stays? New to me. BTW, stay and shroud chainplates should be grounded too

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:10 pm
by kiwi
Cracker Larry wrote: On a wooden mast I would run a big fat copper braid to the masthead.

What are synthetic stays? New to me. BTW, stay and shroud chainplates should be grounded too
OK that means the two part mast must use the tabernacle system rather than having the top just plug into the bottom half.

I was thinking of spectra rigging no stainless wires.

Tony

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:23 pm
by tech_support
kiwi wrote:I was thinking of spectra rigging no stainless wires.

Tony
Hey thats what my fishing line is made from :D

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:33 pm
by Wilfried
Maca,
I just saw the pics from the rollover, waaaaaaaaaw what a ship, nice job you did. Congratulations. Good thinking.

Wilfried

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:44 am
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Cangradulations on the roll over, great job.

S.D.

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:18 am
by kiwi
Congratulations! Looking very good.

I have recieved the plans and am getting stuck into understanding what goes where. I will be building at 1:20th first -easier finding the building space. :D

Tony

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:39 am
by gk108
It looks like that crew rolls over TW28 hulls every day. :D

Moving forward

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:45 pm
by kiwi
Yesterday I started hacking my TW28. I taught myself qcad CAD program and started modifying frames with as goal (for those who don't remember or who weren't here) Image
Current image is not online, it has windscreen raked back at the same angle as the cabin roof front. And a vertical transom with swim platform as per Rhéa 8.50 in my gallery. It also has a large rear sliding cabin door.

The result is this sketchbook: http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/arti ... /TW28.html
This is the result of lots of thought and about 50 minutes on the computer and with a craft knife. The reason it isn't done on the computer is that I am on old fogey who studied industrial design before the desktop computer existed and... I don't have a decent free 3D program for Linux that runs on my hardware.

I will make two "real" models later - one of boat as designed.

QUESTIONS:

1. What shape is the sail? On all drawings the boom is inclined upward and I have seen French trawlers with a sail that shape.

2. What force am I to expect at the point where the mast connects to the roof/cabin wall? I have planed that the mat will be attached at deck level and to the roof. Most of the cabin rear is taken up by a large sliding door (with slot in bottom board for heavy weather...) I would like the mast to be able to pivot at roof level after detatching from the deck so that it lies on the roof to pass under low bridges. Yes the copper grounding strap will have to have a connection at deck level.

3. I want a vertical transom and swim platform. a) the "whole" transom folds down to be come the swim platform (think Wally...) or b) there is a fold down step (C&N 42 style?) c) a hole is cut in the transom that allows the life raft to be stored there so it becomes step / life raft box.

All other details are OK just one tricky place - head roof/chart table/cabin side window junction means I have to do something silly to make things look right... Won't look as bad as the stupid white instrument console of the Rhéa 8.50 (sorry Olivier...) :D

Tony

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:12 pm
by jacquesmm
1. Stay sail are usually cut very flat. Your sailmaker should know that.
2. There isn't much compression on that mast. The rear pilothouse bulkhead takes it through it's roof beam. If you move bulkheads, you must do soemthign about the mast compression. Either a post or bulkhead with roof beam.
3. The transom is structural. Cut an opening and it weakens the structure. You decide if the compromise is worth it.

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:40 pm
by kiwi
Sorry Jacques I was meaning what is the shape of the triangle. When the sail is set is the boom horizontal and it has the same shape as a normail main sail?

Tony

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:44 am
by jacquesmm
Yes, boom horizontal, same shape as a "regular" main, no roach.

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:25 am
by jmccorison
Tony,

The rigging of the steadying sail is important. As Jacques said, it needs to be flat cut. But it also needs to be set with all three edges tight. The tighter and flatter the sail is set, the more effective it will be... within obvious limits.

Jacques addressed the issue of mast compression. But you also need to address the issue of standing rigging. Used as a steadying sail under way, there will be a lot of stress on the rigging. It will need to be adequately sized, see a rigger, and appropriately secured. Simply screwing a pad eye down to the top of the pilot house will not be sufficient. At a minimum, it will need to be through bolted with a backing plate. It would be best it the vertical stress is passed via a "chain plate" like fitting to a vertical structural member. Our 38' wood trawler has a 40 square foot steadying sail and we are seeing stress cracks where the stays are pulling the structure of the aft end of the flybridge loose from the top of the cabin.

Jim

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:31 am
by jacquesmm
No problem with the chain plates: the plans show the shrouds going to frames, not to the roof.
Note that the side view is not correct: the rear shrouds is as shown, it goes to the frame under the gunnel but the forward one goes to the rear pilothouse frame, not to the gunnel. The line is drawn too far.
Anyway, all this is premature, shouldn't we start with the hull?

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:39 am
by kiwi
jacquesmm wrote:No problem with the chain plates: the plans show the shrouds going to frames, not to the roof.
Note that the side view is not correct: the rear shrouds is as shown, it goes to the frame under the gunnel but the forward one goes to the rear pilothouse frame, not to the gunnel. The line is drawn too far.
Anyway, all this is premature, shouldn't we start with the hull?
:D

I had figured the drawing mistake from the large color picture before receiving the plans. All chain plates are planned to be carbon fibre. The sail itself will of course be on a roller furler.

As for the hull I have been seeking inspiration for the swim platform and the Rangeboat and Andreyale both provide the look that I am after. Another idea that I like on the Range boat is the folding teak "garden" table that can be used inside or out.

Today I will go get some building material for the first model which should be started this weekend if she permits...

Tony

Foam cabin

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:59 pm
by kiwi
Continuing my cardboard model:

D262/3 says that foam sandwich roof requires no framing or roof beams. Not even the ones on the D262/5 Frames drawing?

And on page 8 of the building notes - if I replace the galley with a closet can I keep the stringer as drawn?

My C Frame is modified and forms closet side to deck level as does D Frame to roof level. Berth has no cut out and there is a book case/shelf for TV continuing down starboard side after closet. To port there is a backrest with cushions and another shelf. Berth front has set of drawers.

Tony

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:17 pm
by Salty Dog
Greetings Macca,

Hope all is well with the hull work, going ok?

Cheers,

S.D.-

TW28 cabin front

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:40 pm
by kiwi
Jacques,

Is there a drawing of the cabin front? I can see it on the nesting drawing but can't find it on the expanded plates - I must be blind or old or both...

Tony

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:47 pm
by jacquesmm
There isn't. You are supposed to take the dimensions from the assembled parts.
I know from experience that this is the most tricky part of the superstructure assembly and it safer to proceed that way.

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:09 pm
by kiwi
Ok cool

I believe you! Even in cardboard it is hell :D

Tony

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:24 pm
by jacquesmm
I develops but at that point, so many parts may have moved a little bit that we cannot guarantee the exact dimension.
I recommend to build the whole superstructure from foam anyway and foam will take any shape.

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:36 pm
by kiwi
My unanswered question from above:

- building in foam do I need the frames above furniture?

Tony

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:22 pm
by jacquesmm
Some.
:P
Sorry but I am really overwhelmed by work right now: Joel and I run this place together. Two new employees start this Monday and I should have more time to respond within a week or two.

I guarantee a response well before you start on the real boat.

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:48 am
by Macca
[Hope all is well with the hull work, going ok?
]
Hi SD,
All is going well, the boys and I finished the internal hull walls today and hope to complete the hull bottom tomorrow. I will put up a couple of pics today and if all goes well tomorrow I'll have a few more.

Macca[/quote]

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:02 am
by Macca
My unanswered question from above:

- building in foam do I need the frames above furniture?

Tony

Jacques, I would like to know as well.

Macca.[/quote]

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:26 am
by kiwi
Macca,

Are those saw cuts in the bottom panels we see in the shot where the boat is on its side? They look quite close together.

I slept on my question and Jacques answer and I see what he means. I just want to get rid of the roof beams in the front and the main cabins. I am thinking that if beams are necessary a strip of unidirectional CF could do the trick. But the man is very busy and he will say.

I will finish my second cardboard model and post pics in my sketchbook this weekend. I am pleased with the result, I hope the maître will be too :D Then to seriously find a shop - difficult because we are in a career change for her and we may be heading south to greener pastures... I have my fingers crossed for La Rochelle. I have seen lots of potential building space in Rochefort too.

Tony

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:08 am
by Wilfried
Hi Macca,
Nice pics again, I wonder how many hours you already worked on her .
A question: Isn't it possible to make more pictures (construction method etc.) ?
Good luck
Wilfried

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:55 am
by kiwi
The volume of this hull is awesome! There is so much space in there. The bathroom/head area is worthy of a yacht. I say this having visited a 8.5 m boat with similar layout at the Grand Pavois last September. The TW28 has much bettur use of space.

Tony

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:53 am
by Macca
Are those saw cuts in the bottom panels we see in the shot where the boat is on its side? They look quite close together.
Yeah Kiwi they are saw cuts. I can tell you from experience that you can not form 12mm (1/2") marine ply into the complex curves required for the TW28 without some serious kerfing. Although the ply does add strength it's main purpose is to define the shape and in this boats design add weight. All the kerfs were filled with West System resin fortified with West System 403 structural microfibre. This results in a form stronger than the original ply.

Macca

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:17 am
by Wilfried
And how deep are those cuts ? and distance to each other .

Wilfried

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:57 am
by kiwi
Macca wrote:
Are those saw cuts in the bottom panels we see in the shot where the boat is on its side? They look quite close together.
Yeah Kiwi they are saw cuts. I can tell you from experience that you can not form 12mm (1/2") marine ply into the complex curves required for the TW28 without some serious kerfing. Although the ply does add strength it's main purpose is to define the shape and in this boats design add weight. All the kerfs were filled with West System resin fortified with West System 403 structural microfibre. This results in a form stronger than the original ply.
You are preaching to the converted :P I would like to add that your interior photos show a job so clean that I am not going to be showing too many pics of mine if I can't work to that level of quality...

The photo is great it shows us exactly the road to follow.

Tony

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:19 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

The inside hull pictures look great, you and your boys are doing great work, looks like you've got it on the run. What ballast system (material) will you plan on using?

Look forward to your next pictures, thanks again.

Cheers-

S.D.

TW28 transom

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:57 am
by kiwi
Jacques

I would like to have a more vertical transom (transom angle divided by half) and a permanent swim platform. Can I have two beams at sole level that go through the transom to support the platform or is an external stainless steel support a better idea? I don't like the look of external supports...

Tony

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:03 am
by jacquesmm
You can change the transom angle and install a swim platform, why not.
Do not change the structure, build or buy a bolt-on swim platform.

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:47 am
by Salty Dog
Hey Macca,

The inside tape and glass work look perfect from this vantage point, stringers are looking like they're bedding nicely, great work again. Just out of idiot curosity, what wood did you decide to go with for the stringers? Will you stand them off some small distance from the inside of the hulls contour, or, go right to the skin with tape and glass?

Hats off to you and the odd times you may be getting help from your boys, the quality you are accomplishing is top shelf. Well done.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:53 am
by Salty Dog
........getting my eyes to see what they should have....I see in the second stringer photo, they are set. Desregard my blindness in the previous post.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:21 am
by Wilfried
Macca,

Well done again, you don't have pictures from the glass work ?

Thanks

Wilfried

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:56 am
by kiwi
Do you have a side shot of the front of the stringers?

Tony

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:02 am
by Macca
Wilfried wrote:Macca,

Well done again, you don't have pictures from the glass work ?

Thanks

Wilfried
Sorry mate didn't think about photo's at the time but you have reminded me that I need to preserve the memories to hard copy rather than rely on the old grey matter. Through up another pic showing positioning of the major bulkhead.

Macca.

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:26 am
by Macca
kiwi wrote:Do you have a side shot of the front of the stringers?

Tony
Hey Tony,

Not sure what you mean but I will take a few angle shots tomorrow and post tomorrow night.

Macca.

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:42 am
by Macca
Jacques a question on the lamination schedule for the stringers on the TW28. Is it the same as the inside hull (which is how I read the notes) or the keel. Your building notes are a little ambiguous on this point but rather than assume could you please clarify for me please.

Macca.

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:27 am
by kiwi
Macca wrote:
kiwi wrote:Do you have a side shot of the front of the stringers?

Tony
Not sure what you mean but I will take a few angle shots tomorrow and post tomorrow night.
Hey Macca

You are doing a great job. She should be the official photographer shouldn't she? :wink:

I just wanted a 3D representation of the difference of the stringer ends. I can see what is what on the plans but your pics speak more than a 1,000 words on those little details!

Cheers

Tony

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:31 pm
by jacquesmm
Macca wrote:Jacques a question on the lamination schedule for the stringers on the TW28. Is it the same as the inside hull (which is how I read the notes) or the keel. Your building notes are a little ambiguous on this point but rather than assume could you please clarify for me please.

Macca.
It's plain missing, sorry.
You should not be shy with fiberglass when laminating the stringers.

You should tab them to the hull with 2 layers biaxial tape first.
Your reasoning about using the same lamination schedule as the hull is correct but difficult to do.
It is very difficult to take the turn at the top of the stringer with the 0-90 and somewhat OK with the 1708. Unless you are a champion laminator, you will get air there.
A solution is to use all 1708, go from the hull (6" on the hull) all the way to close to the top of the stringer and stop there. Don't try to go over the top of the stringer. Do the same thing on the other side and then, cap with two layer of your biaxial tape. Always offset you edges 1".
That's how it is done in production.

In a nutshell: tab to the hull with two layers of biaxial tape each side, go over that tape with 1708, on the hull, from 6" away from the stringer to the top of the stringer with 2 layers 1708 each side then cap the stringer with 2 layers biaxial tape.

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:04 pm
by Salty Dog
Hey Macca,

Just checking in to see how you and your expert crew were doing on the boat. I'll be the sacrificial rabbit and poke my nose out from the bunch of us perched on the edge, looking forward to your next few pictures.

Keep up your good work.

Cheers,

S.D.

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:00 am
by Macca
Just checking in to see how you and your expert crew were doing on the boat. I'll be the sacrificial rabbit and poke my nose out from the bunch of us perched on the edge, looking forward to your next few pictures.
Hi SD,

Just posted a couple of pics to the gallery of where the boys and I are at. Hope you enjoy them. Tomorrow the prop shaft tube I hope. Kiwi I haven't forgotten you request. I will post pics tomorrow night of the stringers.

Macca

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:56 am
by kiwi
What kind of epoxy are you using? I don't recognise those containers on the table in the foreground or maybe that is "lubrification" for the motor work :D

Tony

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:56 pm
by Salty Dog
Hey Macca,

That was a close one, without that pic fix I think a few of us would have gone off a deep-end somewhere. Too much "lubrification" can result in transverse mounted diesel engines, kind of a bow thruster in the stern result.

Seriously though, thanks again for the pictures, great installation. This gives us a good understanding of the bulkhead/cabin floor/clearance relationship with regard the engines positioning.

Look forward to some other pics as you can, respect that it is difficult to take the time to record with pictures, but, your growing fan base (not suggesting any physical description with that remark), will only be more appreciative as our builds go forward.

Again, great work by you and the lads.

Cheers,

S.D.

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:19 pm
by Wilfried
8) 8) 8) 8)

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:27 pm
by gk108
S.D.
I frequently use a similar additive when I'm doing epoxy work. It's good stuff and regardless of what some folks might say, I believe it is best to store and apply it cold. It is definitely not UV resistant, thus the dark container. It can make the work go much smoother and hassle free.
:) :D :lol:

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:52 am
by Macca
Jacques could you give me a recommended distance from the rear of the keel to the prop to obtain maximum water flow over the prop for the NACA profile keel.

Macca.

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:21 am
by jacquesmm
You don't want the prop to stick out too far for torque, vibrations etc.
From the end of the keel to the front side of the prop, between 4 (10 cm) and 6", not more than 6" (15 cm). That gives you space for a zinc and a weed cutter.

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:21 am
by Macca
Thanks Jacques, I positioned the prop 6" from the keel rather than 4" as it is easier to trim back a S/S shaft than add to it.

Macca.

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:17 pm
by kiwi
And my photos :x

:P

Tony

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:42 am
by Macca
And my photos

http://gallery.bateau2.comdisplayimage.php?pos=-7012

Hey Tony finally got that shot you wanted.

Macca.

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:43 am
by Macca
And my photos.
http://gallery.bateau2.comdisplayimage.php?pos=-7012

Hey Tony finally got that shot you wanted.

Macca.

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:55 am
by kiwi
Cool! You are my man! That is exactly what I wanted to see. Now back to the drawing board...

Tony

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:02 am
by kiwi
Tell us about your tanks. You are using the standard fuel tank volume or you have increased capacity? That round thing is the hot water I am guessing?

Tony

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:41 pm
by Salty Dog
Hey Macca,

Hats off to you and the gents, great work. Lubrification did not result in a transverse mounted engine. Same Q: as Kiwi, hot water tube? Again, the level of glass work you are doing is modle!

As always, we look forward to your next set of pics.

Cheers,

S.D.

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:57 pm
by Mike Adams
Guys,

I had the privilege of meeting Macca last week and taking a first hand look at his boat - I can tell you it's even better than it looks in the pictures! The glasswork is outstanding. Man, but that is one BIG hull!

Macca - thanks for the look - it was good to meet you.

Mike

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:13 am
by kiwi
Mike Adams wrote:Guys,

I had the privilege of meeting Macca last week and taking a first hand look at his boat - I can tell you it's even better than it looks in the pictures! The glasswork is outstanding. Man, but that is one BIG hull!
groan...

Tony :P

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:37 am
by Macca
Tell us about your tanks. You are using the standard fuel tank volume or you have increased capacity? That round thing is the hot water I am guessing?
Hi Guys,

The tanks are all poly roto-moulded. The diesel and water tanks are 195 litre each giving a total of 390 litres (103 gallons) of diesel and the same for water. This is approximately 28% bigger than specified. The only reason I went for bigger tanks is that they fit. The 2 smaller tanks are 100 litres (26 gallons) each for grey and black water. I have used two tanks for stability hoping that as the potable water decreases the waste water rises. Tony, you are right, that round thing in the middle is a 45lt Vetus hot water tank. It will run off the heater exchanger at sea and 240 volt while in the marina. There is nothing better than a hot shower after a day messing about in salt water then sitting on the back deck feeling fresh with a cold drink and watching the sun set.

Thank you all for your kind comments and encouragement. I know my boys and I are motivated by all the positive feedback.

Macca.

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:03 am
by Macca
Mike Adams wrote:Guys,

I had the privilege of meeting Macca last week and taking a first hand look at his boat
Thanks Mike, it was good to meet another person with a simular passion for boats. There are not many people who understand that it is not about owning the boat you built. It's about the next boat you are going to build when you have finished the one you are building. The little brown bottles he brought along to the met went down very well also.

Macca.

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:07 am
by kiwi
Can't see that size in my online catalogue... Printed out the page to compare dimensions to your photo and plan drawings but the resolution isn't good enough, the text is too fuzzy... I hope to go for double fuel capacity - not that I plan being at sea for 10 days or anything. :D

Tony

OK have figured that the tanks are not made by Vetus.

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:33 pm
by kiwi
Macca wrote: There are not many people who understand that it is not about owning the boat you built. It's about the next boat you are going to build when you have finished the one you are building.
Or about using it to go far away? We had already guessed that Mike was a builder :wink: Now we also have Macca - probably another likely candidate for the LB26 after the TW28... I think that I still have lots of little boats in me but only the one big one.

Tony

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:58 pm
by Salty Dog
.......I think that I still have lots of little boats in me but only the one big one......

Thats the boat I'm in.

Thanks Macca, Kiwi, Mike.

Cheers-

S.D.

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:10 pm
by Salty Dog
Snivle.

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:37 am
by Macca
Jacques a question on the expanded plates plan for the TW28 cabin top.

From the centre line to the outside is 1177mm on the plans but if it butts up to bulkhead E it would have to be 1226.5mm. Also the openning on bulkhead E is off centre 254/355 but going by the plans for the cabin top it is centre 305/305.

Is the plans for station E out?
Is the plans for the cabin top out?
Or is it just me who is out.

Macca.

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:41 am
by marten
Very nice work Macca!!

Finally I have received my plywood and epoxy, so I will follow soon.

Have you thought of a sliding door next to the steering wheel instead of the window. The more I think about it it seems to be a good idea... what do you think Jaques?

best

Marten

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:57 am
by jacquesmm
For the roof:
On which drawing do you see those dimensions? Please give the drawing number for each. I have hundreds of sheets here.

For the sliding door: OK, it's a matter of personal preference.

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:21 am
by kiwi
jacquesmm wrote:For the roof:
On which drawing do you see those dimensions? Please give the drawing number for each. I have hundreds of sheets here.
Yes I confirm Maccas mesurements - I noticed this on my model. As I'm working at 1/20th I didn't say anything because I thought it was just me made a mistake. The drawing is Expanded Plates D262/7

Tony

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:59 am
by jacquesmm
Thanks Kiwi.

The length of the epxanded panel is 1177 mm. The length of the camber that it cover is 1174 mm. The 3mm diff is our tolerance. It looks correct to me.
The opening is assymetrical and, in our model, there is a lip that extends over the edge. there is a reason fro that lip but I can't remmeber it.

The rule is still the same: do not cut the roof panels in advance. Check against the existing assembled parts. To me it looks correct but I may be wrong and as we wrote many times, when you get to that part of the boat (superstructure) we know from experience that small differences appear.
Plus, you can really customize that part: wider overhang, no overhang, lip or not or handle or?

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:03 am
by marten
Macca,

Have you counted how many hours or days have you spent building the TW28 up to this stage?
Would it be realistic for 3 men (full time) to bulid it in 3-4 month time?

best

Marten

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:48 am
by Wilfried
Macca,

There is place for two in that "future home" :D

Thx for the pics

Wilfried

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:03 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Thanks for the pics, great work.

Cheers-

S.D.

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:58 am
by Macca
[quote="marten"]

Have you counted how many hours or days have you spent building the TW28 up to this stage?
Would it be realistic for 3 men (full time) to bulid it in 3-4 month time?

quote]
We have spent approx. 1600 man hours. If the three men are all experienced boat builders no problem.

Macca.

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:17 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

You guys are doing great work, and, at a great pace. Looks like you were needing a paint break anyhow. Look forward to seeing the deck in, that'll be a sight.

Cheers-

S.D.

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:10 am
by kiwi
:!: photos :!:
8) 8) 8)

Tony

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:12 am
by jasonmcintosh
Thanks a whole bunch for all of the excellent pictures. Love your boat.

I'm surprised at how much space the motor and tanks are taking up under the deck. Did you consider having custom tanks made to get a more optimal fit?

Any plans for soundproofing the deck under the cabin to reduce engine noise?

Jason

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:13 am
by Salty Dog
Hey Macca,

You guys must be getting serious, I see no vitamin "Fosters" to assist in miss-matching fuel-to-grey water cross over hoses.

Ah, probably a good thing to get all the plumbing and electrical done with as few a number of launch day head scratchers.

It's looking great.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:26 pm
by Wilfried
Congratulations "Grandfather"

Future "decky" Future "Captain" you mean.

Haha

:D :D :D

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:11 am
by Salty Dog
Macca,

As anxious as I was to see the deck get in place for you, the picture of your grand-daughter puts it all in perspective. Congratulations, you're a lucky man to have such a precious jewel. A little credit to her mum and dad too.

Cheers,

S.D.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:49 pm
by Salty Dog
......a little "a-head"..............hmmmm....that was a small flusher?

Macca,

She's really taking shape, looks fantastic. Is that bamboo/balsa core you're using for the cabin section? Little concerned with the cabin height, does the center (convex) roof section provide adequate walk through?

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:05 pm
by Wilfried
Big potti .... :roll:

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:18 am
by Macca
Is that bamboo/balsa core you're using for the cabin section? Little concerned with the cabin height, does the center (convex) roof section provide adequate walk through?
Yes mate your on the mark, it is balsa end grain. The balsa panels have enough strength to, when laminated to engineering specifications, eliminate a couple of ring frames thus increasing the head height. I have also increased the cabin and pilot house heights by 100mm (4"). This has given me an extra 176mm (6 1/2") head room in both the pilot house and cabin areas.

Macca.

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:29 am
by Macca
Did you consider having custom tanks made to get a more optimal fit?

Any plans for soundproofing the deck under the cabin to reduce engine noise?
The tanks are poly rota moulded. To get them custom built would have cost too much to make the molds.
Yes plans are there to use sound proofing but I will wait until after sea trials.

Macca.

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:48 am
by kiwi
Remind us how tall you are Macca

Tony

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:22 am
by Macca
Remind us how tall you are Macca
In the old scale I am 6'5" or 195cm Tony. Even with the extra height I can only just stand up in the shower.

Macca.

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:46 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Looks like you're nearly ready to hit the start button and nav out of the shop....great looking console.

Cheers-

S.D.

Cabin

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:46 am
by kiwi
I showed her the photo and she said "I would prefer looking at ours rather than photos of his" 8)

Tony

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:23 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

The adjustment to the roof lift looks very nice, great fit with all the other elements matching up. You're nearly ready to order glass!

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:32 am
by Wilfried
Macca,

You are my source of inspiration. I'm very glad with all your pics, I don't have the time to build this year but next year …
For the moment I builded a model in 2mm card board, the only problem I had was the keel. Where does that keel start, I don't find dimensions of that, or do I have to ask that to Jacques ? And also I think that I have to offset the keel side plates from the boat bottom plates before stitching together, correct ??

Great job Macca

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:02 am
by Salty Dog
Macca,

The height looks like it's going to work well for you, and the shorter in the family. Appears some of the glass has arrived. The door package is extra clean, if you don't mind me asking, who makes it?

Only to echo Wilfried, great work again.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:24 pm
by wonderfulwade
WOW.......looks like fun. Can't wait tt see the final product. How proud you will be cruising that beauty!

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:13 am
by JohnI
Beautiful workmanship. I'd like to see a "profile" shot to get a sense of how the cabin height modifications look. I can't believe your progress! 8O

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:18 pm
by kiwi
JohnI wrote:Beautiful workmanship. I'd like to see a "profile" shot to get a sense of how the cabin height modifications look. I can't believe your progress! 8O
The difference is 1.16% of hull length so it won't be immediately visible on a photo I think.

Tony

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:51 am
by Macca
Wilfried wrote:Macca,

Where does that keel start, I don't find dimensions of that, or do I have to ask that to Jacques ? And also I think that I have to offset the keel side plates from the boat bottom plates before stitching together, correct ??
Hi Wilfried,

I think Jacques said it best in the building notes for the TW28.
"Please do not try to solve every problem from the start. Many apparent difficulties will disappear as the building progresses."
I don't think the problems go away it is just the solutions become a lot clearer as you progress. I couldn't find any dimensions either but I just used a scale rule on the "Stations plans" between "G" and "H" stations to calculate an approximate measurement. When the keel sides were placed on the hull it became apparent by the fit to the hull and keel molds on the frame. I didn't need the measuments I calculated but they were within 10mm.
As for the keel offset to the hull this is dictated by the hull mold.

I hope I answered your queries Wilfried.

Macca.

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:16 am
by Macca
Salty Dog wrote:Macca,

if you don't mind me asking, who makes it?

S.D.-
Hi again S.D.,

The company that supplied the door and pilot house windows is a little company with a big name. "Australian Marine Windows" Actually they do a lot of major jobs but are also humble enough to look after small clients like me. Their web address is: www.austmarinewindows.com.au give them a look.
What I have used is what is called "stick-ons" for the back, two rear sides and three front windows. The two forward side windows are a double sliding type.

Macca.

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:44 am
by Wilfried
Hi Macca,

Thanks, its more clear now . I'm building an 1/10 model with 2mm very stiff cardboard to find out al the problems in advance.
And I didn't think about
As for the keel offset to the hull this is dictated by the hull mold
Cheers

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:00 am
by jacquesmm
The location of the keel is missing.
The trailing edge is 400 mm forward of H (15-3/4").

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:38 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Thanks again for the information, I'll head over to their site. Again, very nice door.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:06 am
by Macca
JohnI wrote:Beautiful workmanship. I'd like to see a "profile" shot to get a sense of how the cabin height modifications look. I can't believe your progress! 8O
http://gallery.bateau2.comdisplayimage.php?pos=-7779

Profile shot for you John.

Macca.

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:15 am
by MadRus
Man-oh-man, she is looking BEAUTIFUL! I can't wait to see her sitting on the water. What color are you thinking of painting her?

-Mr. Green :wink:

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:10 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Now THAT'S a sight! With the anchor in place, looks like she's actually going to see salt instead of just being pretty.

Are you going to go with any type of rub rail before paint? Looks like you've been filling and fairing the dimps, getting ready for color, have you got one in mind yet?

Cheers,

S.D.

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:14 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Meant to ask.....are you going to go with a rub rail AFTER paint?......sorry, just at the first cup of coffee for the day.

Cheers,

S.D.

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:24 pm
by JohnI
rofile shot for you John.
Thanks! The modifications turned out nicely. I hope to start my MT24 this Fall. Your project is providing a lot of inspiration.

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:29 am
by Macca
Salty Dog wrote:Are you going to go with any type of rub rail before paint? Looks like you've been filling and fairing the dimps, getting ready for color, have you got one in mind yet?
MadRus wrote:What color are you thinking of painting her?
S.D. and MadRus,
I'm thinking of a Teak rub rail which I will install before any more painting. The colour I have chosen is International Paint's Mauritius Blue for the hull and Snow White Gloss for the superstructure. I am also looking at a white trim line just above the anti-fouling.

Macca.

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 8:00 am
by MadRus
Ah, a classic blue, very nice. I like it!

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:10 am
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Wow. She'll be a site for sure. The trim line will stretch her to look like a 36!

The teak would bring her up real nice also, too much though gives a guy another full time career.

If you can keep throwing food at your boys, you've got this on pace to finish out here in the not too distant future.

Fantastic job.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 1:10 am
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Just saw the glass, step-up, seat and front pannel installed, looks great. You guys are really making pace. Done much forward of the bulkhead in the "stateroom" area?

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 5:51 am
by Wilfried
Nice shape. Who's the artist ? 8) 8)

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:01 am
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Nice effect on the anchor lights stand-off, I think the leading edge slope looks just great. Keep going at it!

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:37 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

The teak looks like it took to shaping well, hopefully you'll have little springback with the case fitting. I'll be using steam, mold forms/vacuum press for components requiring bending/shaping. Your window packages look great as well, the hot melt gun is a life saver for staging.

Keep at her, you're doing a wonderful job, thanks again for the great pictures.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Anyone Here Built/ Building A 31 or 34 ft. TW28

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:14 pm
by cannuck
Hi

Anyone built or building a TW28 that is 31 ft. or 34 ft.?

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:39 pm
by kiwi
swim platform included? :wink:

Tony

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:50 pm
by cannuck
No No

Swimming pool onboard :wink:

I would preferr not to have to sleep in the bow birth! Slightly claustrophobic...well more than slightly :(

I also expect one of my kids to join me for a week or so at different times.

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:37 pm
by kiwi
1. That is a big cabin! I visited the Rhea 850 which has very similar dimensions and there is a ton of space up front.

2. Or make a pull out double in the main cabin and the kid sleeps down front.

3. Or wait a few months for the bigger boat plans.

Tony

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:53 pm
by cannuck
2. Or make a pull out double in the main cabin and the kid sleeps down front.
That's the reason for longer - for more space in the cabin - which would be my bedroom, office, living room, dining room and so on.
3. Or wait a few months for the bigger boat plans.
Are there plans in preparation or did you mean that it's likely to happen?

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:23 pm
by laporter
cannuck wrote:Are there plans in preparation or did you mean that it's likely to happen?
Jacques itereated in another thread about designing a larger trawler. I think he's finally realizing a demand for something with a little more capability than the TW28.

I'm down the road from you aways. We're planning on starting our TW28 in just under 2 years from now. Have a few things to get done around the house first. We initially wanted to go bigger, even had a naval architect hired, plans on the table etc. but a few setbacks shelved that project. One thing I learned quickly is that boats just don't cost more on a foot by foot basis but realistically the costs escalate exponentially as you go up in size. A 32' trawler could cost you 40% more than the 28'. That can be a lot for 4 extra feet. Of course there are a host of variables, fit and finish being one major factor. Selection of systems is another. We've had to scale back our expectations for our first project and start with the TW28. If that goes well we'll something larger next time around.

There's a boat building cooperative in your area that you should check out if you're serious about building.

Ontario Boat Builders Co-op
Monthly meetings and newsletters.
2265 Royal Windsor Drive, Unit 6,
Mississauga,
ON, L5J 1K5.

(905) 403-0549 phone/fax
E-mail: obbc@quixnet.net
Web: www.ontarioboatbuilders.com

Good Luck with your project.

Rick

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 1:53 pm
by cannuck
A 32' trawler could cost you 40% more than the 28'
.

Is the expected 40% increase due to the need for a bigger engine? If not what would cause such a disproportal increase in costs? Re-design designer fees?

Be interesting to see a cost spread sheet for a 28 footer versus a 31 footer versus a 34 footer. Has anyone done this a yet?

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:22 pm
by jacquesmm
Engines: bigger boats require bigger engines but that does not drive the cost up 40%.
If you lengthen a boat by 10%, you increase the volumes and the weight by 1.1^3 = 1.31 = 31%.
That increase goes every where down to the cost of the ground tackle.
40% maybe a lot but 20% is a minimum.

Design fees are another matter. Our cost to develop such a plan is at least $ 5,000.00. We recover that over many plans but if somebody wants a new design right away, then he has to pay the real cost.
It is an industry practice to charge between 5 and 10% of the final cost of the boat. Such a boat sells new for around 250K, that means plans would cost between $ 12,500.00 and $ 25,000.00 if designed as a one off.
We would do it for less because we plan to resell it.
The offer: we design it now for $ 5,000.00 or you wait until we design it as a stock plan. It will then sell for between $ 500.00 and $ 1,000.00. That plan may come around the end of the year, earlier if we receive deposits on at least 5 sets of plans.

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:34 pm
by tech_support
Its an interesting thing – marginal cost of going bigger on a boat. For custom boat builders and production guys (Merrit, Rybovich, Jim Smith, American, etc….) is always pays to go bigger, as long as you can sell the boat. That’s because materials cost is a small percentage of the total cost of the boat, where for an amateur its 100% the cost of the boat.

If American Custom Yahts sells a 48’, they have to pay the secretary the same salary as if they built a 68’. Marketing budget would be the same, rent would be about the same. Amount of tools, insurance, utilities, sales, and all overhead is about the same for a 48’ vs. a 68’.

Going bigger costs exponentially more in material cost. So if material cost is your only cost – it looks more expensive.

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:21 pm
by laporter
cannuck wrote:
A 32' trawler could cost you 40% more than the 28'
.

Is the expected 40% increase due to the need for a bigger engine? If not what would cause such a disproportal increase in costs? Re-design designer fees?

Be interesting to see a cost spread sheet for a 28 footer versus a 31 footer versus a 34 footer. Has anyone done this a yet?
I'm working on that for our TW28. I have one developed for the steel 32 footer we were going to build. The 40% figure I mentioned was related more due to a higher level of fit and finish as well as the ability to put "more" stuff in like a generator, more electronics, bigger fridge, tv, stereo, more space=more cabinets=more carpentry, yadda, yadda yadda, you get the picture. A 28 footer will, inherent in its size limitiations, restrict sticking all the big yachty stuff in all at once.

The price escalation is what stopped our 32' project dead in its tracks pretty quick. Like the guys mentioned above the materials for the hull and superstructure weren't the "straw that broke this camel's back". The one area that surprised me was the cost of the electrical systems that went into a bigger boat. Even though we weren't going to initially install a bow thruster or windlass we were wiring the boat for it. Tack on a few hundred here for that and a windlass etc. Bigger boat, more pumps, more plumbing, more windows etc. It all adds up fast. My project management cost control sixth sense kicked in and we stopped before we got in way over our heads.

I'm not ready to share my spreadsheets just yet. I intend to document every item used in the project as well as the time spent on each task. When I am ready I'll offer it to Jacques to include with his plan packages if he likes.

If you go down the custom designed road be careful. You'll be seduced by the ability to stick more stuff in a bigger boat and the designer/architect won't stop you. Before you know it you'll have a great design that meets your needs that you can no longer afford to build. I've heeded Jacques advice and decided for our first build to stick with his forumla and build one of his kits. What we'll learn we'll apply to the next project down the road. I expect to build at least three before I finally get to my retirement boat.

FWIW

Rick

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:17 pm
by cannuck
laporter
higher level of fit and finish as well as the ability to put "more" stuff
Thanks for the info - that clarifies the increased cost issue for me. Since I am claustrophobic and could be living aboard for 6 or more months at a time - I need a larger cabin. (I am also considering a catamaran for the same reasons)

I wonder if it is possible to extend the cabin forward and maybe eliminate the bow birth? And maybe move toilet, kitchen and shower forward. Any negatives in extending the cabin forward?[/quote]

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:29 pm
by laporter
Hey fellow Cannuck

Personally, I think if you're claustrophobic you're not going to survive very long on a 28 or even a 32 foot trawler. I would highly suggest you walk the docks and look at some of these boats, talk to the owners, see how they use their boats, ask to have a quick look around, discuss your plans with them and that'll help give you a feel for the size and ammenities. Really do it as soon as you can so you can get a real sense of scope of what it is you're talking about. I can tell you that a 28 foot trawler, unless you're just a couple that's used to living in close quarters you're going to feel hemmed in on that size boat.

If you truly want to liveaboard for 6 months you're going to need real estate to spread out because you're just not going to have the space you're accustomed to ashore. Everyone needs private space and there just isn't any until you get up to about 34-38' boats with two cabins. Sure you can hide out in the head or the v-berth but that will grow old pretty quick. We currently have a 25' express cruiser with a v-berth, head, small galley and mid cabin. It's relatively comfortable for two (plus the cat) for a couple of weeks tops. Mostly it's just suited to day trips and the odd weekender.

I'm not saying you couldn't do it, there are people who live full time on smaller boats for sure but in a minimalist sort of way. Just take a little time and look at a lot of boats, make notes of what you like and dislike, develop a list of requirements, then move on from there.

You might want to take a little time to describe for us how you see yourself using this boat. Will you continually marina hop? Will you stay in one place with just day trips? Will you cruise extensively and anchor out? All these will have a big affect on not only the size but the equipment you'll need to have onboard. I have a questionnaire somewhere that our architect used for us, I'll see if I can dig it up and post it here, it might help.

I believe it's been said on here before that you can move the interiors around to suit your needs as long as you don't modify the structure. Our project will have some internal changes to the layout as well. Cats offer a tremendous amount of living space for the length compared to the same length mono hull but they also command a premium price.

Rick

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:29 pm
by cannuck
Eh? ;)

First of all my claustrophobia is all about being in narrow windowless places. I can be claustrophobic on a 747 if I am sitting in the middle rows - and everyone stands up at the same time. (It doesn't help when the airlines force staff to illegally turn off 3 or all 4 ventilating systems to save $100 a trip!). I am now living in a condo on the waterfront to practise living in a small space. :o I am sure there are cruisers bigger than my current home - approx. 300 sq. ft.

I am thinking of cruising along the coasts of either South America or the coasts of British Columbia (where I used to live) Oregon, California and the Baja. Need to research out the South America notion. I have done a 4 month the West Coast coastal trip by car (a Chevrolet Corvair!) with a tent and two kids. 8O

My cruising style? Plan for look for and find a series of neat towns and places to hang out for awhile. Unless marinas are not going to charge an arm and a leg - probably "park" offshore.

Naturally if I do find some "Utopian" spot (I can dream eh!) I'll hang out for awhile and do day trips. Maybe even find some super idyllic spot to build a small home. Naturally it will have to be gorgeous or the kids will never visit :|

Anyway that's my dream .

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:34 am
by laporter
Eh to you too!

Well that's a little better. I would recommend, considering this is a technical support forum for this particular boat designer that you send me an e-mail and I'll point you to two other forums to discuss living aboard and cruising. They're both really excellent forums with a lot of seasoned livaboarders & cruisers. They'll be more than willing to help you define your requirements for a cruising/liveaboard boat. There are plenty of people who have done and are doing it and are more than willing to share their experiences.

This whole thing here.... all of it..... technical and non technical discussions, the boats & the building..... is about "THE DREAM".

Rick

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:02 pm
by ArizonaBuilder
send me an e-mail and I'll point you to two other forums to discuss living aboard and cruising.
How about posting the forums here. It doesn't sound like a conflict with Jacques.

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:24 pm
by jacquesmm
No conflict at all.
What we don't want is blatant links advertising competitors like: "I use XYZ epoxy and it's cheaper -> link".

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:26 pm
by kiwi
I wonder if it is possible to extend the cabin forward and maybe eliminate the bow birth? And maybe move toilet, kitchen and shower forward. Any negatives in extending the cabin forward?
Ahem... 8)

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/arti ... /TW28.html

There is headroom only at the head of the berth - that is your negative.

Tony

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:38 pm
by laporter
Ok here ya go...

Living Aboard Forum supported by a magazine of the same name. Great bunch of people many of whom are living aboard, cruising & working.

http://www.livingaboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

Cruisers Forum supported by banner advertising, I'm a moderator on this one. We've just reorganized our topics and there's still some work going on. Great bunch of people most of whom are/were livaboards and extensive cruisers. A lot of technical expertise and support as well. I highly recommend this one.

http://www.cruisersforum.com

Boatered supported by a commercial chandler. Pay subscription for premium content/contacts. A tremendous amount of technical expertise participates on this bbs. Discussions mostly surround production boats with gas inboard/stern drive configs.

http://www.boatered.com/forum/

I'll leave Renegade Cruisers, Night Watch and BoatUS off this list. I don't find their discussions too relevant to this liveaboard thread. There are others that may be of interest to the offshore crowd like Seven Seas Cruising Assoc. etc. but I don't frequent them at all.

Rick

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:03 pm
by jacquesmm
Interesting sites.
Talking about living aboard, do you know that 3 of our employees, myself included, lived aboard for long period of times? One still does and commutes every day from his 34' sail boat to the warehouse.

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:23 pm
by laporter
It appears that the liveaboard lifestyle is increasing in popularity as real estate prices soar. It also appears that finding a liveaboard slip is approaching near impossible. Some states & municipalities are liveaboard friendly but most are not. Waiting times for a slip can take years. There's also the multitude of marina's disappearing, especially in FLA as the owners age and sell out to condo developers. There's also the devistation that the hurricanes have had on the gulf coast marinas.

An interesting phenomenom that is becoming more popular is the "documinium" where you can actually purchase and hold title on a slip. Please, refer your livaboard staff to these forums. We'd love to hear their views on the lifestyle.

Rick

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 5:24 am
by Macca
Finally got the windows stuck.

Image

Macca.

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 5:53 am
by Wilfried
Super 8) 8) 8)

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 12:08 pm
by cannuck
laporter

thanks for the list

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 12:13 pm
by cannuck
There is headroom only at the head of the berth - that is your negative.
Any reason not to have the increased height continue right over the entire birth?

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 2:55 pm
by laporter
Cannuck

There are a few ways to raise the deckhead to increase cabin volume. The most predominant design style is called a "flush deck". This raises the deckhead to the uppermost level of the bullwark. Here's a concept sketch of a modified TW28 raised pilothouse with forward flush deck.

Image

Keep in mind that this isn't an approved design just a concept sketch. But as has been said before you can do pretty much anything you want to the boat except modify structure.

Rick

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 5:22 pm
by kiwi
Touché...

Tony

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 7:33 pm
by Salty Dog
Regarding TW28 adjustments:

This fellow (Michael) has done something that I (and others), selfishly enjoy;

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.comdispl ... m=4&pos=20

This threaded discussion (as it has developed), was certainly more than I thought would occur, but very much appreciated.

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com:8080 ... t/172.page

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 8:13 pm
by laporter
Hiya Dog

I've seen & bookmarked Michael's work. Certainly sparks the imagination when you see the work of a creative mind like his. I think it's a testament to the original lines of the TW28 that it is so adaptable to various configs such as Michael has drawn and still be totally recognizable. I really like the way he's softened a lot of the hard angles, although I believe that would increase the level of difficulty to build for the amateur.

I'm just awaiting the arrival of our TW28 plans. I've got some ideas I'd like to incorporate into the boat to increase it's usability for inland waters & canalling in our neck of the woods (St. Lawrence River, Rideau Canal, Trent Severn, etc.). We'll discuss those later but it'll be close to Kiwi's dream wallpaper which I'm sure adorns many a computer screen!!! I've got it printed in full colour and hanging on my office wall with the words "Keep the Dream Alive" on it.

Image

I'm sure Tony's (Kiwi) is brimming with pride and he should be. He's got another interesting design on the drawing board.

Image

Rick

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 9:24 pm
by Salty Dog
Laporter,

Each may see thier own interpretation best meeting thier ideal, I think each contributor brings a perspective that helps us all appreciate varied lines and uses that may (or possibly not), influence our personal druthers to an already wonderful design.

All good.

Cheers,

S.D.

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 9:28 pm
by laporter
So many boats to build,
So little time,
So little $,
*sigh*

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:36 am
by kiwi
:oops:

The bottom one is almost the finished article. The most visible changes are the curve in the hull top which will follow the sweep of the windows. And the transom will be almost vertical which should bring LOA down to 8.49 metres - I bet you guessed that is to reduce tax and port fees... :D

Current news is that build could maybe start before the end of the year (touching wood)... Will be solving place to build issue before the end of the summer then the only remaining problem will be $ for motor and equipment.

Tony

I have to apologize to Macca

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:20 pm
by laporter
I have to apologize to Macca. Sorry.

Didn't mean to hijack your construction thread. Maybe the admins can take our side conversations to a new thread so you can continue to keep us updated on your build.

BTW very nice work. I've been studying your photo's and discussions with great interest. Our plans are/should be in the mail and we hope to get started in a year & a bit.

Anxiously waiting for your next update and photos.

Yours Aye!

Rick

Re: I have to apologize to Macca

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 8:07 am
by Macca
laporter wrote:I have to apologize to Macca. Sorry.

Didn't mean to hijack your construction thread.
That's alright Rick, I don't mind at all. I quite enjoy the banter. I also got to a check out a couple of sites I didn't know about. Although I have checked out Tony's versions of the TW28 previously it is good to see them again as it gives me a few more ideas. As for Cannuck and his fear of confined spaces I can let him now the V berth has heaps of of head room when you walk in. With a decent size acrylic porthole/escape hatch right in the middle there is a feeling of space. I also suffer a fear of confined space as I got stuck in a ventilation shaft of an old gold mine when I was a kid. Even to this day my parents don't know as my mate pulled me out by my ankles and we were both too scared to tell anybody at the time. What I'm try say is the V berth on the TW28 is quite roomy with a great feeling of space. Matter of fact this is the biggest feeling 28' boat I have ever been in. It puts a lot of 30ft+ boats to shame.

Macca.

Re: I have to apologize to Macca

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 8:31 am
by kiwi
Macca wrote:What I'm try say is the V berth on the TW28 is quite roomy with a great feeling of space. Matter of fact this is the biggest feeling 28' boat I have ever been in. It puts a lot of 30ft+ boats to shame.
Well that makes two of us thinking the same thing! (the designer does too but he doesn't count :D ) Having visited the Rhea 8.50, made the light card model, checked it out with my industrial designers eye and your photos are information enough to confirm your first hand experience.

Tony

Re: I have to apologize to Macca

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:06 am
by laporter
Macca wrote:It puts a lot of 30ft+ boats to shame.
A testament to the design and the quality of your work sir! Anxiously awaiting the next round of photos.

For those of us 'bout to go down the same road you've taken, any words of advice or things you would have done differently? I know it's still a little early in the project but we'd all like hear your thoughts (if you have time).

Many thanks.

Rick

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:50 am
by jacquesmm
During the design, I pay attention to that feeling of space.
It is a leftover from my architecture years: one of my teachers was obsessed by the visual feel. I want my boats to be comfortable to live in and try to avoid bulkheads that interfere with the line of sight standing or sitting. I also try to avoid lockers high along the sides of the boat, this increases the feel of volume and keeps the weights down, where they should be.

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:55 am
by jacquesmm
Forgot to say: Michael Bauer did send me his CAD files for his version of the TW28. I will check if there is no structural or weight problem and produce a few quick drawings to show the dimensions.

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:15 pm
by laporter
jacquesmm wrote:During the design, I pay attention to that feeling of space.
That's exactly why I suggested to Cannuck he walk the docks and look at some boats. I was aboard a Campion Troller 31' last night with my tape measure. It's a nicely laid out little boat very much in keeping with the TW28 for ammenities with the addition of a fly bridge *hint hint*. I've also been all over our friends Camano 31 Troll and my buddies Mainship 34 Mk II with the tape measure. They don't mind at all.
jacquesmm wrote:I also try to avoid lockers high along the sides of the boat, this increases the feel of volume and keeps the weights down, where they should be.
Not to mention banging your head on them when you gotta get up for a leak in the middle of the night!!!

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:17 pm
by cannuck
Thanks for all the feedback on design options for the TW28. I checked out some other designs on line (Nimble Nomad etc.) to see if any ideas can be incorporated into the TW28.

Re: visiting and checking out boat interiors - I live right on the waterfront in Toronto; but the boats are just now going into the water. Likely be 2 or 3 thousand to check out soon :idea:

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 5:34 am
by Macca
Macca wrote:
Salty Dog wrote:Are you going to go with any type of rub rail before paint?

S.D. and MadRus,
I'm thinking of a Teak rub rail which I will install before any more painting.

Macca.
I have decided that Teak might be to soft for a rub rail so I'm going with Kwila.

Macca.

Image

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 10:28 am
by laporter
G'day Macca

Looks like you're making progress. Looking good. So, what's your mental state at this point in the project? Are you wishing it was all over? Getting anxious to get it in the water? Wondering if it'll ever be done?

Not looking to psycho analyze you just looking for some insight into the challenges we're going to face as we go down the same road. Not all the challenges are technical or logistical. I've heard/seen a few "big projects" that wither on the vine 'bout the half way point as people simply loose interest. Was wondering if you've experienced any of that and what you may do to keep the "dream" alive.

Aye!
Rick

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 4:20 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

What a sight. One of the many blessings in your part of the world, access to Kwila. The line alone will give her an 11 meter look! The berth looks very close to surface finish, all great work again, and at a pace that is strong, steadfast and inspiring to say the very least.

I'm confident you and your boys have got broad smiles on how she's shaping up, it would be difficult not to. I also believe I could safely include all of us by saying that we each have broad smiles to see your great talent applied to a design that we will also have our turns at.

Keep at it,

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:04 am
by Macca
laporter wrote:So, what's your mental state at this point in the project? Are you wishing it was all over? Getting anxious to get it in the water? Wondering if it'll ever be done?


Aye!
Rick
Hi Rick,

My mental state is fine. I look forward everyday to achieving something on the boat. Weekends are the best as the boys all help. (so long as I provide food and drinks) I think there are only two moments that are anxious moments. When the hull is rolled over and getting the boat to the water. I know it will be ready for launching in a week or so but I don't think it will ever be done.
There are a few insights I can give future TW28 builders but I am going to wait until the boat is sitting pretty in the water than I will have time to put my experience to paper. There is something I can pass on now.

1. If you think it will take an hour allow a day.
2. If you think it will take a day allow a week.
3. If you think it will take a week allow a month.
4. If you think it will cost a dollar allow three.

Murphy's law does apply when building boats (if it can go wrong it will) but it has been superseded by O'Reily's law (he though Murphy was an optimist).

Macca.

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 10:09 am
by Yoda
That was a great post MACCA. And pretty much right on.
I quit telling people when I thought the boat will be done.
But I am also getting close. And the rain should be gone
untill late fall or winter.

Will be nice to see the TW28 in the water.

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 10:41 am
by laporter
Thanks Macca

I was figuring as much. I've subscribed to O'Reilly's philosophy most of my life that's probably why I'm doing so much research on this boat building stuff. Having the opportunity to follow you lead sure helps a lot lemme tell ya!

They say the same thing about building your own house, you'll never actually finish it 'cause there's always somethin' else poppin' up to change/improve/modify. The part that worries me is I'm terrible at finishing stuff, it'll go along fine and for some reason I just loose interest. It took me over a year to put a roof on my front porch. I suppose the enthusiasm is higher with a boat as you watch it all come together. I'll have to discipline myself to avoid cutting corners as the end nears. Kinda like getting your first car and all the anticipation of christening the back seat!

Well done buddy and sage advice.

Aye!
Rick

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:15 pm
by badaboum
Here is another way. Make the best estimate of time it will take to do a job then multiply by 2 and then go to the next unit of time.

So for an estimate of 1 hour it'll end end up taking 2 days 8O

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:33 pm
by laporter
Hiya Robert

Hopefully I'm never gonna be that far off with my project schedule! *lol* This ain't Gov't work ya know? 8O

I'm figuring 9 months to complete the boat. I might use metric time though. That's 1 statute minute = 60 seconds and 1 metric minute = 100 seconds. That might work eh?

Rick

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:45 pm
by badaboum
laporter wrote:Hiya Robert

Hopefully I'm never gonna be that far off with my project schedule! *lol* This ain't Gov't work ya know? 8O

I'm figuring 9 months to complete the boat. I might use metric time though. That's 1 statute minute = 60 seconds and 1 metric minute = 100 seconds. That might work eh?

Rick
Maybe you could invoke Einstein's theory of relativity
and have it finished before you ever started :lol:

Jacques could sell a kit: a time reversal machine, he'd make millions!!!

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:17 am
by Macca
Bow rail and Kwila rub rail in place starboard side.
Image

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:52 am
by jacquesmm
I moved this thread ot Builder's Power Boats.
Most of this excellent thread is about building Macca's boat, not really tech. support.

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:46 pm
by laporter
Macca wrote:Bow rail and Kwila rub rail in place starboard side.
Image
Macca

What happened to all your photos? I would appreciate it if you'd keep me in the loop on your progress. E-mail works for me if that's ok with you?

Rick

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:08 pm
by Salty Dog
Greetings,

Please advise photo album location.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:19 pm
by laporter
Looks like they're all gone SD. Either Macca pulled them or the BBS admins yanked them all. That's really too bad 'cause they're a great inspiration for anyone contemplating building one of those boats. I found them really useful to help plan our project. Probably the 1 thing that pushed us to pick that design and order the plans. I couldn't imagine what i'd cost a company to acquire photos like that as a promotional tool. Probably 10's of 1000's.

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:28 pm
by MadRus
Wow! What happened? Where's Macca?

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:32 pm
by tech_support
no idea what happend :doh:

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:43 pm
by jacquesmm
Yesterday, I moved this thread from "Power Boats" to the section "Builder's Power Boats" but that did not break any link.
Did it offend someone or?
I was following that thread everyday. :cry:

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:04 pm
by laporter
Maybe Macca took them off, who knows. All the links to his photo gallery are broken in this thread. I was looking for one to illustrate a point and found they're all gone.

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:13 pm
by jacquesmm
I just checked the database and the server files. All his pictures are gone.
We do back ups but we leave the owner of the pics the choice to show them or not. I have no idea what happened.

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:16 pm
by laporter
Guess you'll have to wait for Macca to respond. Maybe he pulled them all. If so, it's a great loss. They were here....

http://gallery.bateau2.com/thumbnails.php?album=403

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:40 pm
by Yoda
I'm not worried. It could have been caused by moving the thread with the links in it. I'm sure Macca has the pics and will repost when he discovers they are gone. He has more pics of the finished boat to do. He's close.

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:07 pm
by laporter
Yoda wrote:He's close.
Maybe too close to the "DARK SIDE" eh Master Yoda?

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:39 am
by Salty Dog
ping

S.D.

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:54 pm
by laporter
Anybody heard from Macca? I wonder what's goin' on? Hope he's ok! I had a wild nightmare last night that I was half way done on mine and the shop burned down. I do hope to God that's not a premonition. *shiver*

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:00 pm
by laporter
Anybody heard anything from Macca yet? Stewing in my own juices here!

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:34 pm
by WobblyLegs
No news?

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:46 pm
by Wilfried
Just a big :?:

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:02 pm
by Salty Dog
All PM appeals have passed without a single return ping, leaving a short list of speculation possibilities.

I wish Macca the very best, where ever he may be, hopefully off on a few month adventure in his completed TW28.

BTW, a belated "well done" congratulations to Sir WL, on a gleaming/tight hull, flip-on.

Cheers,

S.D.

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:12 pm
by jasonmcintosh
With his pictures gone and no replies or posts, it sure seems like he wanted to sever ties with bateau.com. Well, I got to see his pictures for a few wonderful months. Great boat.

Hope he makes it back from whatever voyage he's on.

Jason

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:10 am
by Macca
Sorry fellows for causing you any concern. I pulled the pictures so I could re-organise them into a more structured sequence. Trouble was I ended up pretty crook and haven't had an opportunity since to post the reorganised album.

Macca.

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:20 am
by laporter
OH thank Gawd! Macca's back! *Whew* *Wiping brow*

I had the most horrible dream your shop burned down with your boat in it! *Yikes*

If you need any help with the photos just holler. I'm home sick and bored to tears.

Rick

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:50 am
by Yoda
I just figured the boat was finished and you were headed to Florida to show it off :lol:

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:11 am
by kiwi
Macca wrote:Sorry fellows for causing you any concern. I pulled the pictures so I could re-organise them into a more structured sequence. Trouble was I ended up pretty crook and haven't had an opportunity since to post the reorganised album.

Macca.
TRANSLATION NOTE: "pretty crook" is Australian for "quite ill" and not a reference to female person holding public office or chief executive position in US corporation...

So good news - the photos will be back and bad news - the southern hemisphere is in flu season. Which could in itself lead to lots of wordplay on "don't sleep with chicks, you will catch H5N1"...

Sorry...

Tony

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:16 am
by kiwi
On a serious note Joel, Maccas TW28 pictures could have an album on the front page with the MT24, PH22 and CS25?

It is after all very special boat in the bateau range.

Tony

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:22 am
by tech_support
Yes your right, Kiwi. One of the porjects on my board is to organize some pictures of each boat.

Glad to hear you feeling better Macca :D

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:38 am
by Mike Adams
I finally got an email from Macca tonight - but I see he's posted to the forum here now, so you all know he's still alive.

He says the TW28 is close to being finished and I'm going to try to get up to Queensland for the launch. 8) (Eat your hearts out, guys!).:lol:

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:56 am
by WobblyLegs
Mike Adams wrote:He says the TW28 is close to being finished and I'm going to try to get up to Queensland for the launch. 8) (Eat your hearts out, guys!).:lol:
Get some piccies for us of her underway while you're there.

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:23 pm
by laporter
Mike Adams wrote:I finally got an email from Macca tonight - but I see he's posted to the forum here now, so you all know he's still alive.

He says the TW28 is close to being finished and I'm going to try to get up to Queensland for the launch. 8) (Eat your hearts out, guys!).:lol:
Good on ya Mike.

To say I was envious would be an understatement. I second what Wobbly said, get lotsa pics for us poor folk on the wrong side of the planet.

Rick

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:10 pm
by Wilfried
Glad that you are back Macca :lol: :lol: :lol:

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:30 pm
by jasonmcintosh
Yes! Glad you're back. In my opinion you've got the most exciting build going (not to knock on other's great boats).

Jason

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:35 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Glad to see you're well, or at least improving. Thought we'd might see a blast of "first tour" pictures, but, looks like you had no such time of luxury.

Welp, I'm sure you're close to getting her in the drink, look forward to your past and new pics when energy permits.

Cheers,


S.D.-

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:07 pm
by Wilfried
Yeah, correct.
Now it's Christmas time in Australia

8) 8)

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:37 am
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Paint looks great. Have you decided yet on what (if any) other colors you will use?

Are you going to leave the rub rail bright, or, will it get paint also? Can't tell if you masked it or not in the photos.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:16 am
by Knottybuoyz
Looks like Macca and his boys are out enjoying the fruits of their labors!

Image

Keep posting the pics Macca! Let us know how Stella's performing.

Rick

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:05 pm
by Michael_L
WOW!!! Brain's Envy mode is set to H I G H ! ! ! I wish I were you Macca...Perhaps in a few years...Great job! :D

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:55 am
by jacquesmm
Great picture, all what we need is "The End" in big letters with the appropriate triumphant music.
I hope Macca isn't going to leave this board now that he has the boat in the water.

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:04 am
by Rick
Is that wake from a cruiser or a canoe? Really impressive. I want one.

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:42 pm
by Daddy
Is that fishline tied to the toe of the fellow with the hat?
Daddy

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:32 am
by Macca
I hope Macca isn't going to leave this board now that he has the boat in the water.
No worries Jacques' I have met too many character's on this site who have given me nothing but encouragement and support. The least I can do is give something back. After me and the crew have completed all our checks and balances (sea trials) I will post the results. I would also like to offer any expertise, as little as I have, from my experiences building "Stella".

Macca.

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:57 am
by Yoda
That's great Macca. I have so enjoyed watching your boat come together.

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:19 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

The pictures are great, hope Tim and Jamie don't loose their new beer pliers.

Looks like you got into a small squall, temps still reasnoble?

Will you do any fishing from Stella?

Has your bride been out yet?

Keep the pics comming, they look great.

Cheers to you and your great crew,

S.D.-

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:52 am
by JimW
In the imortal words of Elaine B. on Seinfeld:

STELLA! S T E L L A !!!

You gotta be havin' a ball! Very nice!

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:04 am
by Macca
[img][img]http://gallery.bateau2.comalbums/userpi ... onsole.jpg[/img]

I have tried my best to keep the console as simple as possible.
Starting from the switches on the top port side:
A. Switches
1. Navigation lights.
2. Anchor light.
3. Stern light.
4. Engine rook light.
5. Aft deck lights.
6. Instruments switch.
7. Live bait tank pump.
8. Wash down hose pump.
9. Shower/Basin/Sink waste holding tank pump.
10. Middle bilge pump.
11. Rear bilge pump.

B. Gauges
1. VDO Fuel.
2. VDO Water.
3. VDO Grey water.
4. VDO Black water.
C. Anchor winch switch.
D. BEP battery and bilge pump monitor.
E. Navman Autopilot 3100.
F. Navman Trackfish 6600 (combination chart plotter and fish finder)
1. All Navman instruments talk to each other via Naveman’s NavBus.
G. Vetus engine control panel
H. Vetus go forward/aft/faster stick. (technical term for throttle and gear box control)
I. Vetus hydraulic steering pump with build-in non-return valve finished off with a Vetus mahogany captain’s wheel.
J. Above the go faster stick is a Danfoss magnetic compass.
K. Beside the compass is the boats capacity lable. (11)

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:40 am
by Knottybuoyz
Nice job Macca.

Thanks for the update and the recent pics. How much time to you have on her now? We haven't heard much from you on here so we suppose you've been out enjoying Stella quite a bit. Any speed and fuel consumption figures yet?

Rick

Galley pic

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:35 am
by kiwi
Is that induction or halogen you are using in the galley?

Tony

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:31 pm
by Cracker Larry
Well done 8) But where's the radar :?:

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:43 pm
by WobblyLegs
Well done 8) But where's the radar :?:
From what I'm told by ozzies over here it would seem they have 24/7/52 sunshine down there (except for winter, which is mostly 27 July, but sometimes 26 or 28...

What would you need radar for?

They could be exagerating though?

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:17 pm
by Knottybuoyz
What would you need radar for?
A perch for you pet Cassowarie and Goanna? :doh:

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:29 pm
by chrisobee
A perch for you pet Cassowarie and Goanna?
MAN.... I hate it when I miss two cultural refrences in one sentence.

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:03 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

Thanks for the pics, came together very nice for you, looks great. Any numbers on fuel consumption yet? Nice nav set.

S.D.-

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:43 am
by kiwi
WobblyLegs wrote:
Well done 8) But where's the radar :?:
From what I'm told by ozzies over here it would seem they have 24/7/52 sunshine down there (except for winter, which is mostly 27 July, but sometimes 26 or 28...

What would you need radar for?

They could be exagerating though?
That is what they remember but sober one up and he will say that the sun is sometimes hidden by bush fire smoke.

Oh and night time but by then they are all in the pub drinking more beer.

Tony

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:22 pm
by Cracker Larry
Why radar? On a trawler :?: Just got to have one, like an anchor.

I was going to mention "night?", but I guess they don't boat at night? Do they ever get fog? Do they ever get rain?. Do they ever get out of sight of land? Hmmm... :doh:

Anyway, that's a real nice panel :!: :!:

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:13 am
by Macca
Radar? Why do I want radar, so long as everyone else has radar I don't need it.

Hope you see me before I see you,
Macca.

P.S. What's winter?.

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:46 am
by kiwi
Easy: the months when there are no poisonous jelly fish!

Tony

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:10 am
by Knottybuoyz

P.S. What's winter?.
Macca your a wise guy eh? How's this? Do you get it now?

Image

That was taken after the "Ice Storm" in 1998 that paralyzed the entire NE US and Canada. Now doesn't that appear inviting if you want to come for a visit eh? 8)

Rick

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:46 am
by MadRus
That was a bad storm. Nice picture. Although, you made a bundle of money if you were in tree removal. I was not.

I saw the picture in the Builder Galleries and thought it was something you took recently up there in the Great White North- aye!

-Dave

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:44 pm
by Cracker Larry
Radar? Why do I want radar, so long as everyone else has radar I don't need it.

Hope you see me before I see you,
Macca.
Well it is real handy for finding bouys, markers, and shorelines in the dark. Ya know, the sort of things that don't have radar and aren't looking for you :?:

Just funning with you :lol: You know if you need one. Beautiful boat :!:

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:22 pm
by Macca
Well it is real handy for finding bouys, markers, and shorelines in the dark
The detail on the C-map in the Navman GPS for our area is excellent. The only things not showing are other craft. So long as I keep it up to date and check "warnings to mariners" on the Internet regularly a radar would just be another electrical instrument to go wrong. Don't get me wrong, a radar would be essential if I was doing regular offshore and or night voyagers.
Macca your a wise guy eh?
My wife is from Pocatello, Idaho and after visiting a couple of times I know why she is very happy living in Brisbane and I am too.
Any speed and fuel consumption figures yet?


We have about 20 hours up so far and the Vetus 42hp is using around 5 litres per hour. As I am still running the motor in I have been varing the revs from 1500-2800 so I won't have an exact figure until we do a couple of long runs after run in. I finding hull speed of 7kts at 2200rpm.

Macca.

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:31 am
by gk108
hull speed of 7kts at 2200rpm
I strained my eyes on your console picture for a while trying to see the speed on the Navman. I could easily see the tach sitting at 2300 RPM and wondered what the speed was. Looks like you will have a sufficient amout of reserve power available when you need it.

Your interior is really looking good. The carpet with bound edges is a nice touch. I would say that all you have to do now is get out there and wear the varnish off of that wheel, but you have the autopilot so the wheel will probably look new for a long time. :D

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:03 am
by jacquesmm

I finding hull speed of 7kts at 2200rpm.

Macca.
That's low rpm for that speed. Good hull design :wink: but doesn't it smoke black at times? Don't you have too much prop pitch?
I expected 7 knots at around 2800 rpm.
I can't remember what I show on the plans but is it not a 17 by 17?

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:31 am
by Macca
I strained my eyes on your console picture for a while trying to see the speed on the Navman.
Today I was getting 7.1kns at 2400rpm at the top of the tide.

Image

A little latter, on the outgoing tide, she was crusing along at 8kns at a little under 2600rpm. Chewed up a little more fuel today as I am still running the motor in so I gotta vary the revs. From advise and past experience diesels don't like idleing for extended periods or sitting on the same revs with little load for too long. You gotta make the buggers work because that is what they are designed to do.
I can't remember what I show on the plans but is it not a 17 by 17?
Vetus supplied and specified the prop. They advised me to use a 18" with a 11 deg pitch. Now I know that the pitch of a prop is the distance the boat travels in one revolution of the prop less slipage in inches. ie 2900rpm with a 2.6/1 gearbox equals 1115rpm at the prop. At 2900rpm stella does 8kns per hour or 66900 revs per hour or 583307 inches per hour. at 2900rpm/66900rph equals 583307 inches per hour one rev equals 8.7 inch pitch. Oh shit it's too hard, I had a great day on the water, Stella did well, It's late Sunday night, I'm smashed someone else can work it out.

Macca.

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:16 am
by jacquesmm
There is nothing wrong with what you describe and I did not check my calculations since the last post. When I wrote 17 by 17, I had in mind a 2:1 reduction.
Anyway, as long as you don't run the engine under 1800 rpm at cruise, it's fine. Modern fast diesels should run under a good load. It's a misconception to think that running a modern diesel at 1400 rpm will make it last longer, it's the opposite but cruising at 2600 is perfect.
8 knots at 2600 is real good for that boat.
Don't worry, I was splitting hairs.

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:42 am
by gk108
7.1 Knots at 2400 RPM. Let's see...
(2400 X 60) / 2.60 = 55384 RPH at prop
7.1 X 72913 = 517682 Inches/H
571682 / 55384 = 9.38 inches per rev

If I'm right, that's 85% efficiency for the prop. All of that fairing paid off! :D

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:05 am
by Macca
Hi GK, Thanks for the prop calcs. Below is another snap of Stella's GPS and RPM
Image
You gotta love big tides. I have posted a few more photos to the album showing a rear canopy and storm covers. This gives us an extra room at night and protection during the day from the elements. Our last trip was for five nights to Moreton Island just off Brisbane. Stella has to date performed above expectations both in comfort and performance.

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:43 pm
by Salty Dog
Macca,

The canopy looks great, complements Stella very well.

You've got to be pleased with the RPM/knots values, this is I'm sure welcome news to you, all here as well.

The sunset picture says it all, thanks.

Cheers,

S.D.

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:56 pm
by Knottybuoyz
G'day Macca

Happy New Year. Hope all is well and Stella's working fine. Got any more pics? I was wondering what size tanks you put in her? If I remember correctly looked like you put two fuel, two water and two waste?

If I offered up some money to cover costs would you send me a CD with your construction pics of Stella?

We're still planning a March '08 start. For Sale sign goes on our express cruiser this spring so we may be boatless for a couple of years! :?

Rick

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:03 am
by Macca
Hi Rick,

Sorry for the delay getting back to you. The Bride and I have been moving house. Lived in the same place for 15 years and I had forgotten how stressful moving can be. I have done up a CD with just over a 1,000 photo's so all I need is a postal address and it will be on it's way to you. Don't worry about any money happy to do it for a fellow builder. I look forward to seeing posts of your TW28 project and if I can help out just yell.

Macca.

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:01 pm
by TheBroomside
Macca,

Any chance of having some key pictures of the build reposted in the builder galleries?
On the other hand it will already be very nice to ask you TW28 questions when we do have specific problems.

Peter

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:55 pm
by Wilfried
Hi Macca,
Me too I like to have a copy of that cd, :oops:

Wilfried Acke
Groenstraat 25
9981 Sint Laureins
Belgium

Thanks in advance

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:54 pm
by Knottybuoyz
E-mail sent from here Macca. Have no way to tell if you received it or not. Sorry I may have started something here. Make sure I have your return addy and I'll put a Coast Guard hat in the post for you.

Aye!

Rick

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:16 pm
by Yoda
More on the diesel discussion at the risk of redundancy............
In the late 50's-early 60's I worked for a Catapillar tractor dealer. I worked in the back rebuilding trade in's for re-sale. We would re-build from the ground up. If we got off a Cat and left it idling we would get a lecture and threat of termination. The explanation:

The piston rings do not lay flat in the grooves as it runs. They tilt from the pressure on the power stoke. That gives them a good seal to prevent the fuel from going past the rings. With no load at idle the fuel will leak through, down the walls of the sleeves, past the rings and glaze them. To fix it you have to pull it down and deglaze them. That's was the reason as I knew it to have them working. :wink:

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:06 pm
by jacquesmm
Correct and that's why, when docking, after the engine runs idle for maybe 10 minutes or more, you run it at high rpm for 10 seconds just before you shut down.

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:08 am
by Norbas
Hi Macca,

I'm about to move home too, trying to get it all done before we start building our TW28 in April (got to get your priorities right?). One of the guys I'm building it with is just in the process of rebuilding the second hand engine we'll be using which is coming along nicely.

I'd like a copy of your CD too if you don't mind? More than happy to pay postage if you are getting lots of requests for it as I suspect you might :)

If you let me know it's okay I'll drop you an email with my address on.

Many thanks,
Dave

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:34 am
by TheBroomside
If every person who gets a copy would get the permisson and agree to make and distribute two copies to other people interested, the whole world could have the Macca pictures in no time, including our Chinese fellow boatbuilders.

Peter

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:24 am
by nordmann
jacquesmm wrote:Correct and that's why, when docking, after the engine runs idle for maybe 10 minutes or more, you run it at high rpm for 10 seconds just before you shut down.

I must comment, with all respect, remember if there is a turbo involved, the engine must always idle up to one and a half minute, so the turbo's bearings keeps lubrication when it slows down to the lowest possible rpm before the engine is shut off. Many owners/operators of big dieselengines has learned this the "hard" way.

When I had my debute as a cat operator 26 years ago I sometimes forgot that, and the owner almost crusified me when I did... I can insure you that he made me remember it... 8O :lol:

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:27 am
by jacquesmm
Correct about the turbo.

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:20 am
by Daniel Huckleberry
I once heard a story while working for a paving company about these two red-neck dozer operators who would wind their motors (or at least the company's) up to the governor and then shut them down at the same time just to see who's turbo would spin the longest! Explain that one to the boss.

Huck

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:25 pm
by Salty Dog
Greetings Macca,

I will apologize in advance for not being a bit quicker to add my request for a copy of your Stella CD, looking at the number that have chimed in I certainly would not want to fall into the PITA category, glad to cover what you want for the cost to send one this side.

Not sure of the best email path, I'll try sending you a PM.

Cheers,

S.D.-

TW28 performance

Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:09 am
by TheBroomside
Macca,

Do you have an update on the performance of Stella.
What is the speed at max rpm?
Fuel consumption?

Thanks.

Peter

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:05 pm
by Knottybuoyz
Anybody heard from Macca lately? His e-mail address doesn't seem to be working anymore.

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:34 am
by Knottybuoyz
Well, I'm guessin' Macca & Stella sail'd off the edge of the world! ;-)

Come back soon Macca. Your fan club is standing by!