Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

I just received my AR15 plans. I am pretty excited about building and owning my first boat! Anyways, I thought all of you would appreciate seeing my project so I'll try to update this as I go. Right now I am building a 1/8 model to help me lay everything out and perhaps test some mods.




There are a couple of pictures of great looking AR15s but it doesn't seem like a lot of them are being built. Any reason for this?

I was doing some reading and I saw some comments about an AR15 mast kit. Is that still available?

I have not bought any wood yet but I was thinking of going with meranti for its strength, rot resistance, and lower cost. Is there any reason to use okume besides reduced weight? I was also planning on glassing this for added durability. Will the additional wood and glass weight seriously impact performance? I won't be putting trapeze on this and I don't expect to do any super competitive racing so I don't need crazy speed but I don't want a dog either.

I look forward to your feedback. Hopefully I'll have an update soon.

EDIT: I am making all of the pictures links because I do not want to crop them.

Where in Ohio are you building? I'm working on a sailboat (CV16) in Bowling Green.

I have not bought any wood yet but I was thinking of going with meranti for its strength, rot resistance, and lower cost. Is there any reason to use okume besides reduced weight?

weight is the biggest reason to use okume.

I was also planning on glassing this for added durability. Will the additional wood and glass weight seriously impact performance?

depends on how thick the glass and how much epoxy you use. As a first time builder you will over use epoxy and over build. You should resist this urge. build to the plans and trust that the designer has allready built in a big safety margin. For any particular hull shape the lighter boat will be faster.

Glass on the bottom is a good idea. The day will come of a scrape when you'll be glad for that glass. Very glad...

If you are going to race, less weight means quicker acceleration, but also less momentum. In big boats, it means more weight can go in the bulb, but that is moot with this boat, and even in those classes, efforts are being made to change that as more structure failures are showing designers and builders to be getting too greedy for bulb weight and speed at the cost of safe strong hulls. So, in an AR15 sort of class, in light air, less weight will mean more speed, but will require better technique around the marks because you have less momentum. All these things considered, generally, less weight is the overall better goal. In 10 knots or more of wind, my overweight CV16 achieves hull speed and has some nice momentum to maintain it through a bit of chop, and can hold her own with lighter boats, but in light air, or in light variable winds she'll be beat by lighter boats that can accelerate better in a puff or gust, other tactical issues aside.

Welcome to the ward...

chrisobee wrote:As a first time builder you will over use epoxy and over build. You should resist this urge. build to the plans and trust that the designer has allready built in a big safety margin. For any particular hull shape the lighter boat will be faster.

I certainly do have the urge to overbuild but I think what you said is exactly what I needed to hear. I'm in the Cinci area BTW.

Can anyone answer my question about the mast kit? I think I'd feel better if I bought it all together but I think I could piece it together if I had to. Anyways, model progress continues while I prepare my garage for the real thing.

jsriolo wrote:Can anyone answer my question about the mast kit? I think I'd feel better if I bought it all together but I think I could piece it together if I had to.

I don't see a mast kit for the AR15. I think I would just sit down with the plans and look at the dwyer mast site. Think of it like a jigsaw puzzle.

Nice foil on the CB. Carry that through on the whole model and it will look nice on the mantle.

I may do a model of the VG18 or 20 or 23 (?). I'm thinking of using a scale that matches an available GI Joe (kung fu grip if I can find one cheap), so I can get a good idea of scale. Have you tried your scaling yet to see if you can do the same with a suitable *action figure*?

As KS says lighter weight means better handling in lighter air. But as a first time builder you will over build the boat anyway, everybody does. Instead of a 60% fiberglass epoxy to 40% epoxy you will probably have the reverse. The other thing is are you going to be sailing to race or for pleasure if for racing then weight should be a consideration if for pleasure then build for longevity. If you build for light weight use Okume if for longevity use Meranti.

Most of all enjoy the BBV and your build, nothing can't be corrected and nothing is ever wrong. We'll help you out.

Tom

Re: the mast or spar kit...

Dwyer will help you out with the spars if you send them the sail plan. They have been doing this a long time. They might even have an AR15 sail plan on file. They know who Bateau and Jacques are (is?) . Depending on who you speak with, their first responses or explanations may not compute on your end. Just ask them to say it again differently, so you are both on the same page. And then feel free to relay any continued confusions (if any) here. Or call Jacques if you find it difficult to put into type, but try the forum first so we can all benefit from the discusiion and resolution. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm still getting the feel of sailing with sea trials. I'm not even up to a *wise-fool* yet, but others here have 20 times or more the experience I have. The trick sometimes is hearing an answer in a way that *you* understand to *your* satisfaction, when you need that satisfaction to help bolster simple trust.

About the light vs heavy build...

The longer version...

F=MA

Force = Mass x Acceleration

In that relationship, if the mass of the boat is half that of an overbuilt version, then an equal amount of force from the wind will give you twice the acceleration, theoretically, but there's also drag and sail trim and other issues. But, at half the weight, though you have less inertia to overcome to get you going, you also have less momentum once going. If you are barely moving compared to your *not moving* competitor, that's good. But in light puffs, if the heavier boat plays those puffs right, he might accomplish a tack to windward successfully because his momentum of that extra mass carries him through the maneuver, whereas you might get stuck in irons or need to bear away before the tack to gain speed for the maneuver.

Light air racing requires its own skill set, including a good understanding of where the next puff or wind curtain is most likely to occur. But all skills being equally proficient for light air, the lighter boat is more likely to cross the line first. This seems like a petty parsing of words... but I would say that it is not quite that the lighter boat handles better, but that the lighter boat has the potential to perform better with the proper handling by the skipper and crew. A lighter boat, in some instances, may require more skill to handle well. Same for a heavier boat, just those instances are different.

If the class of boats can plane, then when the wind kicks up, once again the lighter boat can benefit from more acceleration in gusts, getting the boat to plane for awhile, where the heavier boat might not ever plane if the wind isn't strong enough. So if the skipper and crew are sharp, the lighter boat, that can plane, may plane in short bursts where the heavier boat won't. If the wind is steady and strong, the lighter boat may still plane for longer periods, but may slam to a stop more in a chop. Overall, the greater time planing, I think, will make up for the more possible sudden stop. If the heavier boat doesn't plow through the chop, but also slams to a stop, he will accelerate slower from that stop.

If the boats are displacement and need a jet turbine to get them to plane, and the wind is steady, things are markedly different. For then the benefit of less weight begins to drop except in that the lighter hull can put more weight in the bulb or board and carry more sail. In a class with strict restrictions on bulb weight (which is being debated now), or on sail area flown, it becomes wiser to build a stronger boat if lighter still won't let you put more in the bulb or fly more sail. Sail trim and boat trim and tactics and a good weather eye and a clean and well faired bottom become more important than just a few pounds of weight.

With an AR15 you will probably race within all sorts of fleets since there is no established AR15 fleet. There will be some sort of handicapping system to position you fairly among dissimilar designs. If you can get your boat to plane, and you are not facing a four foot steep chop ( ), then light is the way to go, okoume, maybe meranti on the bottom if you want that a bit stronger (and it keeps the weight low which is good). When plenty strong for the worst expected conditions, light will have more advantages, but the skipper and crew need to know and work those advantages or they may still be beat by heavier boats.

If you build a little heavier than an experienced builder, and don't build an outright pig (like I did first time (but is nuke hardened )), (and she's a lovely pig and sails well), then you're gonna have a lot of fun learning those subtle and not so subtle details. There, I typed way too much for today....

ks8 wrote:If the boats are displacement and need a jet turbine to get them to plane...

This is not out of the question I know my way around a jet.

Anyways, I'm thinking about buying my wood now. I have decided to use meranti for the bottom but I am not sure if I should use meranti for everything or if I should get a mix and use okoume for the deck.

I built a quick and dirty VG20 model. It was helpful in visualizing the boat and storage. Time well spent. Several other builders built some elaborate mantel quality models.

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/just ... PModel.jpg

I had very good results dealing with Dwyer for the VG20 mast. They suggested some parts which weren't in the catalog at the time. They did all the layout on the spar the first time and did several things that I wouldn't have thought of. I rigged a replacement spar myself just buying the mast tube from Dwyer.

The only problem with building models is that it turns into an end in itself and you never get around to building the boat.

I build a balsa model of the hull of CV16 when I had trouble visualizing how the hull panels fit together. It was very helpful. I may build another one day so that I have a model of my boat. My boat is now nearing completion.

I'm going to bed early so this update will be short. I have to get up EARLY tomorrow so I can be in my tree stand before dawn.

The AR15 is a gofast boat that should be built light. You will want to keep the ends of the boat as light as possible so the boat can move with the waves and not be stopped by the waves. Crew will provide weight that moves to enhance sailing performance.

Yes... don't try to incorporate a tree stand into the boat. It will add too much weight aloft.

Nah, not to worry. We used to hog hunt in the Savannah National Wildlife Refuge in a 16 foot aluminum jon boat. We'd put a 16' wooden stepladder in the boat and the shooter would perch on the top of the ladder while the driver cruised the creeks. Never had a problem Killed a lot of hogs

So maybe I can add the tuna tower to the CV16?

Sure, as long as you stay in the creeks and don't raise the sails There is a slight a conflict with tuna towers and sailboats. Wish I had some pictures from those days. The hogs in the bottom of the boat gave us plenty of ballast for the shooting tower/AKA stepladder.

ks8 wrote:So maybe I can add the tuna tower to the CV16?

You could offset the weight of the tuna tower with a hot tub set down low! Water ballast!

Here you have your sailboat tuna tower,just a different name

peter-curacao wrote:Here you have your sailboat tuna tower,just a different name

Now don't tell KS to set his sights too low. He needs encouragement!

That would weigh a bit more than the boat. The hot tub would need to be filled with mercury...

So... how's the AR15 progress?

I have had a few distractions lately...



This one is finished, for now.

I ordered materials for the AR15 yesterday and will take off next week to start on it, assuming materials arrive.

Edit: My picture got cropped, weird. I wonder if it's done that to other ones...

You used to large a pixel count use 640 x 480 and it should work fine.

Tom

What size loads you working with?

Looks like shotgun, maybe?

jsriolo WHY!!!! did you revail the secret of green rum??

Cracker Larry wrote:Looks like shotgun, maybe?

Looks like it, but many presses have swappable dies so that that press could be for almost any round (always wanted to post a post with a *that that* that works gramatically, in a row. Oops... make that three... )

For those that care: .223 and .30-06.

Also note that I won't be scaling my pictures - if you want to see the whole thing just open it in another tab or something. If you ask nicely I might make the pictures links to full size ones.

Anyways, I ordered my fiberglass/epoxy and it should be getting here tomorrow. I'll try to experiment on some crappy plywood and start building a jig over the weekend.

I also decided to go with meranti (mostly because of cost) and ordered my plywood. As you know, the AR15 uses 1/4" for the hull and 3/8" for the bulkheads. Unfortunately, Boat Builder Central is currently out of 3/8" meranti. But don't fret! They offered to upgrade my order of 3/8" plywood to okume at their cost in order to expedite my order. I really appreciate their offer, but this is driving me crazy. If I was going to use okume I would have either used it exclusively or perhaps used okume for the 1/4" hull and meranti for the 3/8" bulkheads. Using okume for the bulkheads and meranti for the hull just seems back-asswards. I am not sure what the resolution is going to be but I think I've convinced myself that I'm a newbie and shouldn't worry. What ever the case, I am very impressed with their service. I am going to try to contact them tomorrow and either tell them I don't mind a little wait or I'll pay them the difference to upgrade everything to okume.

To be extremely clear - I am very impressed with Boat Builder Central's service! If you guys are reading I appreciate the gesture and will use you again! It's just my crazy engineering sensibilities getting hung up on using meranti for the hull and okume for the bulkheads.

What worries you the most about okoume? Your hull will be slightly lighter, but not by very much. The difference in rot resistance only applies to bare wood. Proper epoxy coating will make rot a non-issue.

Since they were upgrading the 3/8" ply I called them and told them I'd pay for them to upgrade the rest to okume. What the hell, you only live once!

It is best to use the very best material that you can afford. I've never heard anyone complain that they used the best material.

YAY! I finally got my materials! Too bad it was all beaten to hell getting here...



Just kidding! The corners are kind of beaten up and the top/bottom sheetshave some gouges but I ordered extra and the rest is alright. I am surprised I got off so easy; the guys at the freight depot were the laziest, most careless guys I have ever seen. I can't believe that any packages are able to make their way out of that place unbroken.




Like I said, most of the damage is on the top/bottom sheets and I have extra. I will probably use the dinged ones for practice.

And so it begins...

Well, that's not good. The good news is that the corners are probably the least used bits. You can probably work around the other divots so I would guess that its not as bad as you might think.

Like Chris said, you should be able to work around those bad spots, but it is a drag. For my V10, I had a sheet with bad blemishes from the factory and had to rework the nesting to make it work out to where the blemishes weren't a part of my boat. I kind of went about it the hard way and drew the lines on the sheet 2 or 3 times before I realized that the end result was simply flipping the panel over as drawn on the sheet. You're probably making sawdust already. Have fun.

I am off work for the rest of the year because they will not let me roll over vacation. Guess I'll focus on the boat. I believe I have everything that I need, but prep work continues. I have built a loft to get my plywood off the ground because space is limited. I am also going to hang some type of divider so I am not heating the whole garage... Which brings me to my first major oversight of the project: I bought slow hardener because I figured I'd need the extra time being a newbie. However, because of the temps I'm working in I should have gotten fast hardener. I am not even sure the slow hardener will work at all with normal garage temps. I am going to get a thermometer for the garage and then refer to this page http://boatbuildercentral.com/howto/cure_times.php. Depending on the temp I am even considering ordering fast hardener.

I am also going to hang some type of divider so I am not heating the whole garage...

If you can get it just a tad over 60 you'll be fine. I use nothing but slow. You could mix a little bit of fast to the slow. When you mix, spend a little extra time with it in the pot before you spread it thin to let the reaction get started.

Alright - I've had some problems with the temperature but I think I've mostly figured that out. Well, I hope so because I did my first fiberglass seam with some scrap plywood. I'll be checking on how it turns out shortly.

I also got a lot of work done on the jig that I'm making for this. I know it is not required but it gave me a lot of opportunities to practice.

Congrats on the first cuts!

I haven't actually cut my okume yet!. I'm too scared!

Heh, that will be coming shortly. I think I'm going to actually cut the real transom.

Progress on the jig...

You're on your way!

Are you one of those in the photos or always behind the camera?

chrisobee wrote:Are you one of those in the photos or always behind the camera?

I'm the one with the Triumph shirt.

jsriolo wrote:I'm the one with the Triumph shirt.

Good man! I've got a '01 Triumph Bonneville. She's a beaut!

I have an 01 bonnie as well. Do you ride jsriolo?

I'm off Monday so I'll be working on the boat and might even have another update.

So we put up another frame and spent a lot of time making sure everything was perfectly square. We also practiced doing fiberglass seams. I don't have pictures of the fiberglass work, but I'm probably using 1/3rd of the epoxy that I used the first time I tried to do a seam.



I'm actually in this picture if you click on it.

If you resize your pictures to 640 pixel max width, before you upload them to photobucket, they will link full size into the forum here, if the link works. So far, they do.

ks8 wrote:If you resize your pictures to 640 pixel max width, before you upload them to photobucket, they will link full size into the forum here, if the link works. So far, they do.

I'm posting my progress in other locations that don't have the restriction so I won't be resizing them. However, I will continue to link them so you can see the whole thing if you want.

I decided to splice some of the sheets together before cutting the hull sections. The fiberglass is curing now.







I also got up the nerve to cut the first real piece of wood!

Unfortunately I have been very busy at work and when I come home I'm beat after shoveling snow! The Jig is done and all squared up. I am currently waiting for another warm (I'd call anything above freezing warm at this point) day to cut the hull panels and make a few more splices. Once I do that it will really start looking like a boat!

Until then I'd like to spend my time preparing some of the other necessities like sails. I am considering the kit for sale here but I have not been able to find any opinions or a much of a description at all. I am sure it is of good quality so unless I hear something earth shattering I will be ordering that soon.

I am also thinking about the mast. Is it true there used to be a kit provided here? I do not have a lot of experience so that would probably be the best place to start if it was available. I am also concerned because Dwyer Mast does not advertise a mast long enough for the specified length. Will they do a one off? How much more will THAT cost?

I am also looking for places to order other hardware. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Finally, could someone please shed some light on the main sheet setup? The plans are not clear to me and I think it might just be easier to put a traveler on anyways.

Thanks!

Hi. I recently looked at ordering from Dwyer so I'll venture an answer. You can order any length up to the maximum length they give. The maximum, at least for the recommended profile for the SB18 mast, was 30 feet. The prices in their online catalog are "per foot".

As for the mainsheet tackle, I know what you mean about it being unclear but I think it is because there are quite a few ways to do them and usually controls are where sailors customize. Try looking in the gallery. I think you'll need both the mainsheet tackle and a traveller.

By the way, nice build.

Thank you for the quick response, but that's exactly what I'm worried about. The plans calls for a DM-2 profile mast that is 24' 7-7/8" and their longest stock length for that profile is 21' 11-1/8"

ETA: Also, do I add sailfeed? What dimension do I use for sailfeed?

ETA2: The plans call for a DM-2 mast and a D353-1S sliding gooseneck. However, Dwyer's site says the D353-1S is for mast DM-1 and D353-1L is for mast DM-2. Typo?

ETA3: OH, I think the gooseneck being sized for a DM-1 profile is refering to the boom profile (which is DM-1 on the drawing). Is that correct?

This stuff is confusing for a newbie. I don't want it to get here and not fit!

Those are questions the designer should answer but usually they don't come to this part of the forum. Post them in the "Plans and Building > Sailboats" area and you most likely get an answer ... but do a search first to see if any of them have been answered already.

jsriolo wrote:Thank you for the quick response, but that's exactly what I'm worried about. The plans calls for a DM-2 profile mast that is 24' 7-7/8" and their longest stock length for that profile is 21' 11-1/8"

ETA: Also, do I add sailfeed? What dimension do I use for sailfeed?

ETA2: The plans call for a DM-2 mast and a D353-1S sliding gooseneck. However, Dwyer's site says the D353-1S is for mast DM-1 and D353-1L is for mast DM-2. Typo?

ETA3: OH, I think the gooseneck being sized for a DM-1 profile is refering to the boom profile (which is DM-1 on the drawing). Is that correct?

This stuff is confusing for a newbie. I don't want it to get here and not fit!

I would call up dwyer and talk to them on the phone regarding the mast length. The gooseneck will need to fit the boom not the mast. Probably DM-1 its a round profile.

I've been busy...

So Here is my progress from the last week or so.

Of course, it started with a disaster. I bent one of the panels into place and then when I tried to do the other: CRACK! I put down my tools and decided that was enough for the day. This is after I spent an extra day getting back to where I was before the bending incident.



FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU



All of the seams are filled! Time for a beer!



Here are some pictures of the hull with everything sanded. As soon as i clean the dust off I'll be ready to fiberglass the seams.




Hopefully I'll be able to do the fiberglass soon and flip the hull!

That is a nice looking hull. You're making good progress. I'm jealous.

Do not use fast hardener when it is 80 degrees. That shit almost went critical!


Sanding fiberglass is a bitch... Get your friends to do it.


Ready for paint (epoxy+pigment)


First coat done!


"We need better light for pictures."


2nd coat done!


Ready to flip!

Nice work men.

Nice work, but I hope you plan on painting over that tinted epoxy. As far as I know the epoxy has no UV inhibitors and will break down when exposed to sunlight. Tinted epoxy is cool for insides of compartments and such, but paint is still needed for long term use.

George

gstanfield wrote:Nice work, but I hope you plan on painting over that tinted epoxy. As far as I know the epoxy has no UV inhibitors and will break down when exposed to sunlight. Tinted epoxy is cool for insides of compartments and such, but paint is still needed for long term use.

George

Actually, I haven't even faired the bottom yet. I was planning on flipping it at this point and getting the top mostly done before I flip it again to finish the bottom (paint included).

Cool, just wanted to make sure. It woudl be a shame to do all that work and it not last. Glad to hear you have a proper game plan

George

I finally flipped the hull. It was a lot easier and faster than I expected (unlike everything else on this project).









I don't expect to have an update for a few weeks because I'm going on vacation.

Nice lines!. I don't know how to sail, but my wife really wants the next boat to be a sailboat. I was contemplating this one. She sure it pretty. You're doing a great job with it.

Will

Will why does she want it to be a sailboat. Has she ever sailed. If so what will satisfy her with the sails, rigging and iniial speed. if she doesn't have any experiene then the Moonfish would be a good starting boat for her her. If she wants to sail with you and the kids around then you need to look at the sailing boats in the 14-17' range.

Tom

Nice lines!.

No kidding, and the boat looks great too Nice clean job

Will, if you move back to GA, Mrs. Cracker and I can teach yall to sail any size boat you want to build Larger boats are much easier to sail, but small ones teach you faster

Will why does she want it to be a sailboat. Has she ever sailed

That's like asking why someone want's to fish

I got a relative in DC that teaches sailing when not on the clock with the daytime DC job. If you are interested Will, there's plenty of sailing schools in the area. Let me know and I'll send off a few emails and see what happens.

Sorry about the thread hijack. With such a nice build, the breezes get to blowing and the skippers gabbing.

Will why does she want it to be a sailboat.

Tom, she has sailed. It's me who has never done it. She grew up on a sailboat; although she probably hasn't sailed in 10 years. I figure we will be starting from scratch (at least me). I looked at the AR15 because I could see myself doing mach3 with my hair on fire, but more likely we will want something to cruise around the lake with the family and occassional overnight camping trips. I will probably build the CV16, AD16 or VG18 years from now.

Larry, we'll take you up on that when I fast forward 3 years from now

ks8, shoot me an email with his contact info. I'm always looking for time on the water, and if I get to learn a few things then that's a bonus

Sorry for the hijack. I really like this build and will be watching anxiously as she comes together.

Will

FINALLY glassed the inside!






I'm on a boat, bitch.

The hull looks great. I like the photos. Especially the Keystone beer.

Sponsored by Keystone and Larue Tactical

Well, not yet but I'm trying to work something out

Sorry for the lack of updates. I have not forgotten about the boat, but I have been bidding on some .gov surplus items and to my great surprise I won something.



I am going to pick up my new boat puller Wednesday - hopefully I'll have some boat updates shortly after.

That should pull the lake to the boat without too much effort.

Those are fun trucks as long as you don't have to get anywhere fast I played with one that a friend had, it was a 1953 (I think) with a buick engine and ran great, but topped out about 50mph with the engine screaming

What powerplant is in the one you just bought? I'm assuming it's much newer than a 1953 model

My boat puller is a 1967 Kaiser Jeep M35A2 with a Continental LDT-465 straight six multi-fuel.

It had a flat...

I know a guy that owns a tire place. When he said he could work on these tires for me the whole project got a green light (because I don't want to mess with those damn split rims). Anyways, I took him the flat which needed a new tube and he said he would fix it if I pulled out two small stumps. "You're going to fix my tire for free AND I get to use the winch? AWESOME!"

Back to the regularly scheduled program:


Transom tacked on.


Preparing to glass the transom.


Transom glassed on. It's pretty much finished now

You're going to fix my tire for free AND I get to use the winch? AWESOME!"

You think like I do Boat's looking good, keep up the good work

George

Sorry for not updating - There was a little disagreement last week and I'm moving. Work has been crazy so I've only now gotten my computer set up. I hope to take the M35 this weekend to bring the boat to its new home. I don't know how long it will be until I'm all settled in and can work on it but I'll let you know. I'll try to remember to take a picture of the boat on its first trip too.

Stuff happens. You'll work it out. The boat is looking really nice, be careful with it. It would be fun to see your truck and boat together. Good luck with the move.

Will be watching for the next update. Hope the best works out in the change.