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Dave's FL12

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:21 pm
by dewers
Today I filleted and put down the the Biaxial Tape and then the resin in the bow area only. I was able to get out all of the air bubbles and get a nice tight bond to both sides. But I can feel the texture of the fabric still, should I put a second coat of resin down to fill the weave?

Thanks

Dave

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:19 pm
by chrisobee
That's what is called fairing. If you are going to leave it bright use straight epoxy. If you will paint use epoxy and a filler or quickfair.

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:12 pm
by ks8
If any other structural components (in general) will later be laminated to an area, then if you do fair before that other part is added, you want to use a structural filler such as wood flour or milled glass fibers, which will be hard to sand, but do-able, but typically, fairing is not started until after all construction in an area is completed. If there are no other structural components that will ever be added to that area, and you are not bright finishing it (as ChrisOBee pointed out), then you use a fairing filler which is typically something called *microballons*, in either purple or white. This is made of microscopic plastic bubbles which are very easy to sand compared to a structural filler or straight epoxy. When using a fairing filler, sometimes a little colloidal silica (or cabosil) is added to help thicken the mix so it does not slide off vertical surfaces before curing (but don't add too much or it will start to get hard to sand again). Bateau sells a ready made fairing mix to add to epoxy, and they sell a product called Quickfair which is a two part epoxy product with the mixture pre blended in for fairing. All you do is mix the two parts of Quickfair to get a batch of fairing compound.

So there are your choices. Again, If no more structural laminations in an area, use some sort of fairing blend to fill the weave as it is easier to sand... or... don't fill the weave if you want to be fanatical about saving weight (if it is an interior area). If the weave is not filled, you must be careful when painting, since when you sand prep the surface you may cut too deeply into the glass fibers and weaken the tape. Fairing compound smooths the surface so that before painting you are sanding fairing compound instead of cutting into the tape itself. A scratching of the upper tape fibers is one thing, but cutting deeply into the fibers to try to get a smooth surface is not good, unless you used twice as thick a glass laminate as needed because you want to help Jacques and Joel buy new cars, in which case, the second layer of tape, if it wasn't specified, can be sanded smooth, but it is an odd and expensive way to fair (though I did just that in a few areas, such as where ubolts are installed for attaching lines from safety harnesses).

See, there's always a complicated way to answer a simple question! :lol:

Einstein made a good point, in seeming to promote Occam's Razor, but then giving one of his subtle winks...

*Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.* :wink:

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:32 pm
by dewers
Thanks

I have to make the decision if I am going to make a minature anchor locker. I can't belive that the fillet and the tape gives so much structure so quickly. I am going to finish off each "box" before proceeding to the next. It will add more time to the contruction of the project but I think I will make a better boat this way

again thanks for all the help

Dave

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:20 pm
by ks8
The rubrails shape the sheer fair and are structural. I'm not sure at what stage your notes tell you to install them. I put mine on as soon as the frames were installed, before the main frame was even taped in. Even though I have a different boat, the principle is the same... those rails established the sheer line so that any construction afterwards was only adding more permanence to that faired sheer line and hull shape. The rails help establish a *fair* sheer and hull. So review your notes. If you haven't got the rails on yet, you may not want to put them on last after all those other *boxes*, but maybe before?

Enjoy the build! :)

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:37 pm
by dewers
It says right in the palns that the rubrails can be installed when fiberglassing the outside. The box I was going to add was going to be attached to the front seat and not to the hull really. I plan on making a box that will attach to the boottm of the seat and allow me to store a small mushroom anchor and about 25 feet of rope.

A good friend of mine a a great cabinet maker and long ago he told me that a set of good cabinets look good everywhere just not where you can see them everyday. I want all my boats to have that quality


Thanks again for your help,

Dave

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:34 pm
by dewers
Well I put the first coat of fairing down today.

Image

I put it down fairly thin, but I did find out how bad my fillets look. I am going to try to make this as good as I can and just put it down to practice practice practice.

Now comes the question, what grit of sandpaper shall i begin to smooth this down?

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:43 pm
by robbiro
100 or 150 might be a place to start inless you want to really get to the bottom quickly. I have had some of the same problems trying to glue in the transoms on my GF-16, so I have even gone so far as to use 60!!!!!

Best luck, It is taking shape and it is yours, so enjoy.

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:07 am
by dewers
thanks for the reply, I guess I will have to make a trip down to the local HD and buy some 100 and 150 disks. How is your coming along?

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:08 am
by Mike Adams
Dave,

Here's how I solved the anchor storage problem on my FL14:

Image

Just a simple 'wall' across the front seat and the otherwise fairly useless space in the bow becomes your 'anchor locker'

Mike

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:17 am
by dewers
Thanks Mike for the idea, I will see if I can come up with something like that. I hope I can make my little FL12 look as good as your FL14.

Also I looked at your gallery, its nice to put a face on the people who help out. Also do you mind if I steal a few of yor beautiful ideas?

May I ask how you cut out the seats? I will most lilely throw a few more hundred questions your way if you do not mind

Dave

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:06 am
by Mike Adams
Dave,

You are most welcome to make use of any of my ideas if you think they are good enough to suit your purposes! :wink:

I'm not quite sure I understand what it is you are asking about the cutting out of the seats, but there are a number of discussion posts about this topic on my main building thread at http://gallery.bateau2.com/forum/viewto ... sc&start=0

If I can help with any advice please don't hesitate to ask, but I'm no expert - "Lake Dreamer" was my very first attempt at boat-building. However, there will be plenty of others reading this thread who will be sure to correct me if I'm wrong! :)

Mike

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:15 am
by dewers
In my eyes you have created a work of art. Here is what I am talking about

Image

I saved many of the pics of your gallery to use as insperation.

Thanks again

Dave

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:35 am
by ks8
dewers wrote:Well I put the first coat of fairing down today.

I put it down fairly thin, but I did find out how bad my fillets look. I am going to try to make this as good as I can and just put it down to practice practice practice.
Where I had a couple of fillets that were not what I had hoped for after they had cured, I roughed them up and then laid a bit more filler on top and then another piece of tape, wet on wet, and carefully and gently smoothed the tape into the fillet goop for a nice smooth radius, then carefully wet out the tape being careful not to distort the goop beneath (or I'd smooth it again if the brush punched a valley in it too deep somewhere). It is a question of getting the filler material just the right consistency in the epoxy. It is easy to say *peanut butter*, but there are different peanut butters! If you get the slow hardener, or use cooled down hardener, you get a bit more working time to tweak the filler consistency. Keep your *blend* in a wide paper or plastic salad bowl and the increased surface area will keep it from flashing early on you. Just know that if you use the cooled down hardener, it will get a bit more runny when it warms up. I know some builders wait until the filler gets gummy before laying on the tape, but I like to be able to form it slightly under the tape, but to do this, it can't be too runny or too thick.

Like you said, practice practice practice. :)

I think sometimes it is easier to fix a fillet by laying a good one on top, rather than trying to fair it back into shape. Of course it will use more filler and tape and epoxy, but so does fairing (except for the tape).

Hint: the fairing mix can be very runny on vertical surfaces. If you add just a bit of cabosil, (or colloidal silica), it will thicken a bit to stay put, but you don't want too much silica in there either or it will get hard to sand, and brittle. If fairing over bare wood, brush the wood with epoxy first, else the dry wood may wick all the epoxy out of your fairing blend and make it too dry and flakey, but if you soak, AND your fairing is too runny, it will slide and run all over the place. Once again.... practice. :wink:

If this is your learning boat, be ready to buy more materials for the little fixes of the first project, and by the time you are done, you'll be ready for... got the next one planned yet? Enjoy the learning curve. Experiment under the seats once the construction is done there. Then only you will see *the learning curve*. :)

It's taking shape!

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:32 pm
by Mike Adams
Dave,

The seat top was first made all of one piece, to which I epoxy glued the meranti trim strips. Before it was installed in the boat, I then made two cuts right across the seat top with my portable circular saw set to just below the depth of the plywood.

The seat top was then turned on it's edge and I inserted my jigsaw (with a fine-tooth blade) into the cut made by the circular saw. The jigsaw was used to cut around the curved corner into the meranti trim and then straight down the middle of the trim piece (where you have indicated on the picture above), round the opposite corner and back into the second cut made by the circular saw.

This procedure was repeated on the opposite edge of the seat so that the hatch part of the seat eventually separated from the rest. The edges were then cleaned up with sandpaper and the fixed portion of the seat top was glued into place in the boat.

The hatch was initially smaller than the hole cut in the seat top by the thickness of the saw blade - but the epoxy and paint took up most of that small difference, so that the finished hatch fits neatly into the seat.

It's not difficult - but you have to do it before you glue the seat top into the boat or it would be virtually impossible to do!

Cheers
Mike

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:53 pm
by dewers
Thanks much Mike, It seems so well done I thought you may have used a plunge router with a very small bit

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:02 am
by dewers
This evening I filleted the transom area with a new technique i read about the galleries. I used a 2" PVC joiner the create the nice rounded fillets. The came out much better and evenly. And using some heavy plastic bags we have here as peel ply seems to working well. Pictures will follow later

Thanks again for all the great help,

Dave

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:36 pm
by dewers
When taping the bottom is it better to work wet on wet again if I have to fill some spots in with wood putty?

Thanks

Dave

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:28 pm
by ks8
I'm not quite following the question. Got a picture to explain it?

Wet on wet most always is a benefit in that it saves a step, makes a chemical bond with the tape laminate, and particularly on inside fillets, it helps you form them smoothly under the tape. Personally, I did the outside taping by letting the wood flour filler cure first, and then getting it nice and rounded with a light touch of the belt sander first, then RO, then a sanding block. It isn't perfect, but I started this hull with a goal of simple *workboat finish*. :lol: When I taped outside I then had no worries that I'd accidentally flatten a *wet* filler corner as it was already cured and shaped permanently. But I'm sure others have done just fine with wet on wet here also. I did not trust my skills then with wet on wet either, but outside corner is a little trickier to be careful not to distort a target radius corner during the taping, since this is now hydrodynamic surface on the outside, in the water. ( BTW, I am going with the workboat finish in areas, no mirror showroom gloss as a goal. The trim is the only thing that adds some style. :) Got to finish it already! )

I'm not sure what you mean by having to fill some spots with wood putty... or how that would affect a wet on wet decision. :roll:

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:51 pm
by dewers
There are some spots where the side of the hull and the bottom are not exactly flush with each other. I want to fill those spots in and then add the tape. But from your reply I am going your way

Again thanks for the help, and if your finish is workboat, then I am in lots of trouble :help:

Dave

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:07 pm
by ks8
dewers wrote:... if your finish is workboat, then I am in lots of trouble :help:

Pfffttt... don't let all the trim fool you (or maybe this shows the plan is working... 8)

The actual finish will probably be a 10 - 15 foot finish. It will be nice if it is better than that, but I guess the trim is working! :)

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:32 pm
by skiabq
Finishes huh...My first one must be a 30 foot finish and the second one is about a 25 foot finish, so I guess I am improving :D

How's the boat coming Dave? Are there any new pics on your website that I missed? When and where do you plan on splashing her? If it's somewhere close, maybe I could take some pictures for you. We could have a Bateau sort of gathering out here in the desert 8O

Corey

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:59 am
by gk108
ks8 wrote:When I taped outside I then had no worries that I'd accidentally flatten a *wet* filler corner as it was already cured and shaped permanently.
I'm pretty sure that's what happened on my D15. The bad part is that when you move the wet filler and make that flat spot the filler goes somewhere else and makes a little bump. I couldn't sand the bump out of the biax without weakening the seam, so ultimately I had to build up the quick fair to the level of the bump. It wasn't much but it could have been avoided.

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:33 am
by dewers
skiabq wrote:Finishes huh...My first one must be a 30 foot finish and the second one is about a 25 foot finish, so I guess I am improving :D

How's the boat coming Dave? Are there any new pics on your website that I missed? When and where do you plan on splashing her? If it's somewhere close, maybe I could take some pictures for you. We could have a Bateau sort of gathering out here in the desert 8O

Corey
the last pic I put on there was about three days ago. Progress has slowed since the kids are out of school. The boat building is important but the kids grow up way too fast and I do not want to miss it. I plan on splashing her at cochiti which is not too far from you. If you co7uld shoot some pics and maybe some movies I would like that very much.

My brother asked me to build him a couple of the CC so they will be next on the list. I guess they will give me more practice on finishes and filletiing.

Do you plan on builing anything in the near future?

Dave

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:31 am
by skiabq
I know exactly what you mean about them growing up WAY too quickly. After I finished my 12' Hiawatha the 9 year old was asking about kid sized canoes. So now the 2 of us are working a Cheap Canoe that I scaled down to fit on 1.5 sheets of 5.2mm Lauan (I am not sure how to spell that) plywood. We already had a major setback as one of those windstorms that we had broke the 2 side panels, they were at a delicate stage of fiberglass splicing, so we had to start those over. I thought I could crank this out in 2 weekeds, and I probably could, but with a 9 year old helping it is taking a lot longer. It is a lot of fun to walk him thru the process, he gets to see it take shape right in before his eyes. we both hope he gets to paddle it soon.

Let me know as you get closer to splashing her and I will be there to take some pictures. I don't have a decent video camera, but if you do I will operate it for you.

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:51 pm
by dewers
if you ever heading up this way, you are more than welcome and see the progress. Just let me know and I will get you where I am.

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:13 pm
by ks8
gk108 wrote:
ks8 wrote:When I taped outside I then had no worries that I'd accidentally flatten a *wet* filler corner as it was already cured and shaped permanently.
I'm pretty sure that's what happened on my D15. The bad part is that when you move the wet filler and make that flat spot the filler goes somewhere else and makes a little bump. I couldn't sand the bump out of the biax without weakening the seam, so ultimately I had to build up the quick fair to the level of the bump. It wasn't much but it could have been avoided.
Yes... exactly. Though I did sand through biax in a couple of small areas on the outside... but I also sheathed the hull entirely and so had, actually, in those places, at least two additional overlapping layers of 6 oz, and the biax was doubled on the inside (due to a confusion in the read of the notes as compared to the plans, now straightened out), so I did not panic so much when I went in or through the biax in a couple of small patches (approximately 1 inch by 2 inch was the largest). When doing an inside seam, you have gravity working with you somewhat, and the nature of the concave fillet. But you *can* shift stray filler on an outside corner back to where it belongs, with a squeegee technique. Inside corners are much easier to one still developing technique with the materials. And again, for a beginner (like myself) it is much easier (I think) to allow outside corners to cure first, then do a final shaping of them before taping, as this allows for a slower shaping rather than a stressed panic if filler begins hardening an ill shaped corner into permanence. As this was my first boat, the idea of the *much easier* method was appealing to say the least. My first hull fillets, on the inside, were not wet on wet. It wasn't until I began taping in frames that I began wet on wet... or maybe I began on the port chine? I don't recall exactly. But then I've been out in the sun all day and may soon see invisible pink elephants fly overhead. 8O

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:16 pm
by ks8
skiabq wrote:Finishes huh...My first one must be a 30 foot finish and the second one is about a 25 foot finish, so I guess I am improving :D
I'm probably being way optimistic with a 10 to 15 footer finish. We'll see... we'll all see. :| :lol:

Hey Dave.... by the time you get the CC's done, with all that practice, the kids will have canoes with showroom finishes. 8)

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:02 am
by dewers
well the requests are up to three now. my 10 yo now wants one. I may just start an assmebly line and keep building them until the end of time

Dave

Rounding over the sides

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:20 pm
by dewers
I am about to start taping the bottom and in the tutorial is says the round over the sides. Would it be wise to use a 1/2" round over bit in a router?

Thanks

dave

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:17 pm
by jeremy
You could try the roundover bit, but I don't think it'll work. Since the angle between the sides and bottom isn't 90 degrees, I don't think an edge following bit will work very well. If you are braver than I, you could try it without an edge following bit, but I know what would happen if I tried it.


I think the best thing is to use a grinder, belt sander, or RO sander with a hard pad and aggressive grit (that's what I did).

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:23 pm
by dewers
I tried a 3/8 round-over and the angle of the hull took out all of the round capacity. Before I try using the bit I was going to see how much of the bit it going come into contact wth the bottom

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:32 pm
by jeremy
Yes, that's a good idea, but also keep in mind that the angle of the hull changes, so your roundover will also change.

It's very easy to take off a lot more than you expect with a router (I do it all the time), so I went with the slower, but somewhat more controlled sander.

Re: Rounding over the sides

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:36 pm
by ArizonaBuilder
dewers wrote:I am about to start taping the bottom and in the tutorial is says the round over the sides. Would it be wise to use a 1/2" round over bit in a router?

Thanks

dave
If you are talking about the chine, to round it I do the following.
First I will fill the seam with an epoxy wood flour mix(fillet), so that the seam is completely solid and flush to the wood.

Next I will use my RO sander with 60 grit and move it back and forth iacross the seam working my way down the seam, slowly removing the sharp edge until I get a nice rounded looking seam.

After I am happy with the look of the seam, I will take some more epoxy wood flour mix, slightly runny and put a layer on the edge. I smooth out the mix with some sandpaper, actually using the back of the paper as a flexible spatula.

I now have a nice rounded smooth edge that has any depressions or holes filled with epoxy(fillet).

After a light sanding, the seam is rounded and voidless ready for tape.

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:46 pm
by dewers
thanks I know what I will be doing this evening

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:59 pm
by msujmccorm
I used a grinder with a 40 grit disc. Be careful if you go this route. It is easy to take to much but it is quicker than a sander.

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:07 pm
by ArizonaBuilder
msujmccorm wrote:I used a grinder with a 40 grit disc. Be careful if you go this route. It is easy to take to much but it is quicker than a sander.
Yes, a grinder can make a mess very quickly.
A nice rounded smooth seam takes time and light passes.

He who hurries will make a mistake. :) :) :)

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:29 pm
by dewers
ArizonaBuilder wrote:
msujmccorm wrote:I used a grinder with a 40 grit disc. Be careful if you go this route. It is easy to take to much but it is quicker than a sander.
Yes, a grinder can make a mess very quickly.
A nice rounded smooth seam takes time and light passes.

He who hurries will make a mistake. :) :) :)
I don't care how long this boat takes me. It is a learning experence for future projects.

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:11 am
by dewers
Thanks for all the help guys, the sander and some 80 grit and sides are rounding over very nicely. I will fill any small spots that need some extra putty.

Now the next question. I want to put a bow eye in and got some geat answers, but I forgot how night from the bottom or down from the top should it go?

Also next week, I will be in POC in Texas for some reds and specs. Wish I had started the boat three months ago

Dave

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:31 am
by ks8
Rough shape only with a grinder... then tweak it with a sanding block with long even strokes. Belt sander works well if the grit isn't too rough and, you are good at handling a belt sander... else it too will remove too much too quickly. Some builders have used routers with round over bits to cut their chine corners to a nice rounded edge. I used a grinder and block on one side, and belt sander and block on the other... learning experience... :) Grinder was lighter and easier to handle. Belt sander was heavier, but when handled properly, had more momentum for smoother motions.

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:57 am
by msujmccorm
Dave,
Good luck on the reds and specs. I went to Baffin Bay last week. That place is an amazing place to catch fish. We limited on reds in about an hour.
Have fun,

Jeff

Sides sanded and all taped

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:40 pm
by dewers
Finally after two days of sanding I am happy with the roundover. I epoxied and taped the edges up this afternoon. The bad part is my little one tipped over the cart I was using and spilt the epoxy. Now I have a nice mess to clean up. Guess I will have to order up some more and have to work around the house this weekend.

Also I want to put some 17 oz Biaxial with 8 oz mat on the bottom for protection from oyster bars and rocks, what side should be against the wood?

Anyone need some help on thier boat. :D I can be out on the next flight.

Dave