Doug's GV10

To help other builders, please list the boat you are building in the Thread Subject -- and to conserve space, please limit your posting to one thread per boat.

Please feel free to use the gallery to display multiple images of your progress.
ks8
* Bateau Builder *
* Bateau Builder *
Posts: 8403
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:00 am
Location: NC USA
Location: Now a much longer sail to Tampa Florida! Back to NC, Youngsville FM05tw

Re: Doug's GV10

Post by ks8 »

I used the same stuff. 407. I *could* just tell you no worries. It will be fine. Nothing to it. Very easy. A trained baby seal could do it. But you seem to be asking for a little more detail. If you want to have a more involved explanation of what you may be experiencing, with some understanding to help adjust to more realistic expectations, then you can reasonably expect the response to be more involved. :lol: If that is what you would like, just say so. I have it already typed up, well, as well as I could at 2:30 am. :wink: I could post it here, or by email, which ever you prefer.

It is easy, but manually mixing one's own batches does have some variation in results, batch by batch. That is to be expected. Temperature does have an effect. Closing the gap in variation between batches needs a consistent technique, again, not difficult. If you are one to notice the slightest details, then you will notice them, while other builders might not, and can't understand what you are talking about. Not sure where the fault lies in that, or if there even is one.

Just say if you'd like to hear how I've come to understand the process with 407, and the varied results, and when to see that the results, though not being a fantasy sort of perfect, are still plenty perfect. I can also explain the technique that worked for me. I don't know if it will work for you, but understanding sure does help to reshape better expectations of what are plenty good results. And what I see of yours is sure in the ball park, even though the shinier batches will be tougher to sand due to the higher epoxy content. :)

terrulian
* Bateau Builder *
* Bateau Builder *
Posts: 3041
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Marin County, CA
Contact:

Re: Doug's GV10

Post by terrulian »

ks8: I was thinking perhaps a high ratio of epoxy to powder, too, but he said that he'd tried different proportions. Anyway, I think it may be enlightening if you post your tome on the forum. No one has to read it if they don't want to. I've always just adjusted the 407/epoxy ratios just like we do with wood flour, i.e., sometimes ketchup, sometimes peanut butter, depending on what you're up to. Never had anything go belly up on me with that stuff. I've also used West System with microballoons from Tap, and I think I've also used 407 with Marinepoxy from BBC without difficulty.
Again, I don't experience the great variations in temperature that many of the builders do and no doubt that's why my epoxy life is easy :) .
Tony
Image

gtcoupe
* Bateau Builder *
* Bateau Builder *
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:24 pm
Location: Camano Island Wa

Re: Doug's GV10

Post by gtcoupe »

I appreciate your replies fellas. Gonna go out and do some sanding in about an hour, but I think I know where things went a little south. The short version is I over worked that second coat, using too much pressure and thereby squeezing the 407 out of the epoxy, and then spreading the resulting even thicker mix of epoxy and 407 on the transom. I expect to have a pretty easy to sand transom and a near impossible to sand bottom. No worries, just going to go through a few more 40 grit RO discs rather than using the long board.

KS8, you are probably right that I may have unrealistic expectations. I've been lulled into a false sense of my own high skills because Evan designed such an easy to build boat! Its all his fault! Actually, the real reason for my obsession with knowing more is my desire to build a PG25C. I would like to have a belief that I actually know what I'm doing before tackling a project that large and expensive. So feel free to post that information you were describing. I'm especially interested as I know you were building under less than ideal conditions in "the cathedral".
Completed: FL12 GV10
Next up: P19!
Doug

gtcoupe
* Bateau Builder *
* Bateau Builder *
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:24 pm
Location: Camano Island Wa

Re: Doug's GV10

Post by gtcoupe »

KS8, TJ and Peter, you guys ROCK! Just spent a little while sanding, mostly with a longboard. Touched up a few spots (less than 5 minutes) with the RO. Sanded super easy! I don't know what the gloss was all about, but looks normal now. Obviously have some more fairing to do, but my drywall and bondo jobs always looked like this after a pass or two. Here are a few after sanding pics.

Image

A close up:

Image

Plenty of work to do:

Image
Completed: FL12 GV10
Next up: P19!
Doug

tcason
Active Poster
Active Poster
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:33 am
Location: Maryland - US

Re: Doug's GV10

Post by tcason »

wow that looks great

save some divits for the primer to hide! :lol:

terrulian
* Bateau Builder *
* Bateau Builder *
Posts: 3041
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:29 am
Location: Marin County, CA
Contact:

Re: Doug's GV10

Post by terrulian »

Yes, all looks good to me. Keep us posted.
Tony
Image

ks8
* Bateau Builder *
* Bateau Builder *
Posts: 8403
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:00 am
Location: NC USA
Location: Now a much longer sail to Tampa Florida! Back to NC, Youngsville FM05tw

Re: Doug's GV10

Post by ks8 »

I'm going to try to re-write it more organized and cleaner, and then post it on my own thread. It will have in the text of it:

Fairing with 407

Anyone who does a search on > KS8 Fairing with 407 < will find it.

The rest of the week just got busy. Very glad to hear you are on your way. :D

Quick hint (as it applies to stitch and glue methods):

In a cool work place. A *thick depth* applied layer has more potential to heat and retain some of its heat as the reaction begins. As it heats, its consistency gets thinner, and it becomes more likely to run or slide. So in a cool work area, if you try to lay on too thick a depth of a layer on an incline or vertical, then, even if the consistency is very good when first applied, it still may run or slide when it heats. A thinner depth layer is less likely to do this as severely, because it doesn't retain as much of its self-generated heat, and if it does do it, it will be much more likely to be in an acceptable range that will be fixed with another cycle or two of *apply/cure/sand/clean prep*.

Thick depth layers can have this quirk to change their consistency from retained reaction heat, after a good consistency has already been applied and is on the hull, beginning to heat toward the cure. It won't matter on a near perfect level horizontal, unless something messes with the earth's gravity field in your location ... :help: (Check with Craig to see if he is going to open his hatch) :lol:

Worst case that increases the effect the most:
Assuming one gets a good consistency before applying it to the hull.....
Cool epoxy, loaded up with 407 in the cool, laid on thick, on an incline or vertical, applied to hull in a warm work place.

Why is this worst?
Cool epoxy is more difficult to fully *load up* with a filler. It may seem to be a good loaded consistency, but as soon as the epoxy binder heats from reaction energy, the whole blend will thin in its consistency. Bringing a cool bowl of blend into a hot workplace and hull is the worst case of consistency thinning because of the natural heat buildup.

In a hot tent or garage, I used slow hardener if I could, at work area temp, in thinner depth layers, to minimize the delta (the change in temp and consistency during the reaction). Sometimes I used chilled hardener and mixed in the AC, if it was 100F or more in the work area, to get more working time, and I accepted a bit of runny funk was possible on inclines, because it was more difficult to fully *load* the blend with 407, and the blend's delta was more significant once laid on the boat surface.

(I even used FAST in the hot tent, for small vertical areas, with work area temp epoxy, working VERY quickly, with thin depth layers. With inclines or verticals, the smallest possible delta in blend temperature on the boat means less surprises. :wink: )

Best case where nothing goes funky at all:
Assuming the blend is loaded up to a good consistency in the bowl...
Work place 75F-80F, epoxy same, mixed on site, loaded up on site, applied in thin depth layers on any incline or vertical, and thicker depth if it is near perfectly level horizontal.

That scenario pretty much does what one reads on the instructions and application notes. But how realistic is that for most of us????

Working even in the cool can cause a higher delta on an incline surface, if applied in a thick depth, causing run possibilities, because the thicker application can retain more reaction heat, and get thinner in consistency before it *kicks* into permanent position and shape.

Expectations? You get it now. :)

The perfect fairing job with 407 is (drum roll):
When it is completed, it doesn't fall off the boat, and the surface is now sufficiently fair to the builder's requirements. That's it. Perfect. Period. The process to get there is another subject and the *perfect batch* has its own definition too. Don't confuse the two. If someone wants to argue *perfect* with you, I leave that option open to you.

One perfect batch can never get the job done. There will be multiple batches in cycles of *sand/ clean-prep/ mix/ apply/ cure*. Each batch may have slight runs, but because of possible funk delta stuff in the uncontrolled workplace environment, minor runs and ridges are well within reasonable expectation, dealt with easily with the RO or Long Board, and therefore also.... *perfect*... utterly sufficient and good to get the job done, within reasonable expectations. Anything more perfect than that, has less to do with boat building, and more to do with people building, or OCD. :|

Anyone who can fair the boat in one layer, so smooth and run and ridge free that it is not necessary to sand it at all, such a one is strangely gifted. It is not normal. And such had better use that power for good. It would not be wise to fall into the habit of looking down on us mere mortals. :wink: :lol: But if you are out there somewhere, I am happy for you. Amazing and unnatural ability. :)

User avatar
Cracker Larry
* Bateau Builder - Expert *
* Bateau Builder - Expert *
Posts: 22491
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: Doug's GV10

Post by Cracker Larry »

Whew :!: KS finally got his words back :lol:

That looks great from here for a first coat. By the time you're finished you will be an expert.
Completed GF12 X 2, GF16, OD18, FS18, GF5, GF18, CL6
"Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made." -Robert N. Rose

gtcoupe
* Bateau Builder *
* Bateau Builder *
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:24 pm
Location: Camano Island Wa

Re: Doug's GV10

Post by gtcoupe »

Thanks guys. You've given me my mojo back!
Completed: FL12 GV10
Next up: P19!
Doug

User avatar
peter-curacao
* Bateau Builder - Expert *
* Bateau Builder - Expert *
Posts: 7607
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:29 pm
Location: Curaçao Dutch Caribbean

Re: Doug's GV10

Post by peter-curacao »

Cracker Larry wrote:Whew :!: KS finally got his words back :lol:
Haha :lol: would take me half a day to write that all down :lol:

Told you nothing wrong with your fairing :wink:
Don't forget the high build primer is gonna take away a lot of small imperfections also.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests