Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:13 pm**

No previous experience - Strongback is built and awaiting CNC kit. I have some confusion as I read Building Notes: How is the bow mold (A) positioned vertically as it butts into the strongback? Also, I’m needing help understanding the vertical placement of the subsequent molds. Some seem to rest on the strongback while others (pictured in Building Notes) may be elevated vertically (using braces) above the strongback.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:19 pm**

First all of your molds will be full size. the smaller ones that run under the deck will be throw aways full size ones made of plywood or should be in the kit and then be replaced by the smaller ones when you flip. As far as the bow mold, make sure it is centered and you can then screw it to frame A. Make sure you have it at the right height for the hull or it won't do you any good. Again it is a throw away.

Well I hope this helps, Tom

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:31 pm**

I have not built the FS17, but others have...

In general terms, station molds are attsched to a 2x4 cleat on edge. Those are then screwed to the strongback. To get the vertical height right, certain setups require adding vertical 2x4s and then a cleat to the bottom of them.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:39 pm**

Here is a general idea. Sometimes, you won't need the verticals and the horizontal cleat screws to the mould. Bow mold is same, but attaches to the middle of the stringback

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:10 pm**

All appreciated; thank you!

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:19 pm**

CNC kit - Do I punch these cuts (since they are not all the way through) or use a jigsaw, or something else? Also, is some light sanding a good idea? Other inputs? Thanks!

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:02 pm**

Always good to see someone jumping right into the thick of it!

Regarding the puzzle joints, is there a consistent "onion skin" or "tabs" left holding the pieces together?

The corresponding puzzle joint needs to fit snuggly into this one, so the edges must be clean. A small, .02" or less, is conducive in the joint as it allows glue to fill the gaps.

A quick read on puzzle joints can be found here...
https://boatbuildercentral.com/support- ... -joint.pdf

As well as host of other helpful reads that will help it all to come into focus.

Good luck. Keep posting pics.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:12 pm**

A consistent "onion skin." When I use the jigsaw, the tend to breakaway before they are cut. My concern is the breakaway causes some splintering and loss of wood. Trying to find the approved solution.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:45 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:12 pm A consistent "onion skin." When I use the jigsaw, the tend to breakaway before they are cut. My concern is the breakaway causes some splintering and loss of wood. Trying to find the approved solution.

A little splintering won’t hurt a thing. Squeegee the glue over the gaps and any splintering, cover it with plastic and add some weight. They’ll be fine.

A laminate trimming bit in a small router will cut the onion skin most easily. Quicker and cleaner than a jig saw.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:00 am**

I use an Oscillating tool with a fine tooth saw blade to cut the pieces out. A very useful tool for boatbuilding and relatively inexpensive. I’ve got one set up to cut and another set up to sand. Both inexpensive Harbor Freight purchases.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:12 am**

Coping saw with 12t blade if you like to do things the hard way. I also found that a drywall saw for cutting outlets will make quick work of it. If you use a jigsaw or sawzall use a very fine tooth blade.

I found the the SoB tool (reciprocating multi-tool) difficult for those tabs.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:39 pm**

All great inputs; thanks!

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:34 pm**

I had inputs to lightly epoxy wood as a beginning step. With no epoxy experience, I do have a few drips and heavy spots on a few of the frames/molds. Some were minor due to oversight. A few others were caused as my pot times were getting too long and application occurred when the epoxy was way too thick. I've since had some suggestions about spreading epoxy after mixing to help increase work times. I'm wondering now about the epoxy errors that I currently have. Do I simply sand? Any suggestions on techniques? Do I sand and reapply another thin coat or sand and move forward? Thanks!

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:44 pm**

I do not see anything really bad, maybe you could point them out better. If they are really bad just sand them out. If they are in small areas use a sanding block with 40 or 60 grit so you don't sand down to the wood. When your pre-itcoating like this pour the mixed epoxy out and work it into areas you need to. It will not set up so fast.

Tom

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:10 pm**

Tom - Really had trouble getting a good image of the "thick" area. While I do have a few simple drips, the thick area seems a bit concerning. I'm hearing lightly sand with no additional epoxy and move forward? - Marshall

Posted: **Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:49 am**

I'd start with a good scraper before sanding, esp with the drips. Works fast. I use a Linbide scraper that has replaceable carbide blades. Gets rid of a drip in a minute. I'd try it on the "thick" areas too.

Dougster

Posted: **Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:15 pm**

Dougster - Will purchase one tomorrow. Thanks! - Marshall

Posted: **Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:07 pm**

Just sand with 60 grit and lay on a few thin layers every 12 hours.

Never work a batch close to gel times.

Posted: **Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:53 pm**

Have learned "quickly" about gel times and pot times. Thanks!

Posted: **Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:56 pm**

Still unpacking supplies. I see what is most likely woodflour on the left. What would be the purple material (on right)?

Posted: **Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:07 pm**

Micro balloons

If there is a white powder in there it is micro balloons and silica fairing mix.

Posted: **Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:07 pm**

Help needed with motorwell as I stack molds on my strongback: The Building Notes indicate I should "install the transom fastened to the motorwell sides." What is the method of attachment for the transom to the motorwell sides? Also, how are these sides attached to mold/frame "E." I assume during this phase, I am only installing the 2 sides of the motorwell and no other motorwell components? Any help for this novice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Posted: **Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:24 pm**

Temporary screws to keep all aligned until they are tabbed in place with epoxy putty (wood flour and resin). I believe they aren’t removed until after you flip the hull. Just don’t epoxy over the screws before you remove them. You should have the wotorwell sides attached to stringers, the last frame before the transom and the transom. The motorwell frame is the actual piece that you will be installing permanently in the boat. Unlike most of the other frames that are temporary molds at this point. Here’s how my FS19 looked at that stage. Welcome to the BBC club. My 19 is same construction as your 17. I included a lot of staging pics at my FS19 (-5%) in Ga thread. Have fun, keep the questions coming. Here’s how I looked laying out those 19 ft panels. You’ll miss this fun having the precut kit with puzzle joints.

Posted: **Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:18 pm**

There are a number of ways to do the bonding.

Screws if the ply is 1/2" or more.

Thickened resin.

Pipe clamps if you have them can work.

Ratchet straps another option.

Personally, I do not like to fillet without tabbing because I hate sanding fillets.

Another method which works for no load (perhaps not here) is hot glue and then you just bury it in the fillets.

Posted: **Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:52 pm**

GuyP and Fallguy1000 - Excellent inputs; thank you. These inputs are slowly starting to make some of this make sense. Pressing ahead hard beginning tomorrow. Much appreciated! - Marshall

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:19 pm**

Marshall it was my first stitch and glue also. This forum and Jeff and Reid at BBC we’re quite helpful along the way. Enjoy your creative endeavor. Look up Dr Pete from your neck of the woods for a close to home build.

Posted: **Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:52 pm**

Interesting. How do I make contact with Dr Pete?

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 11:00 am**

I temporarily clamped the motor well sides to the stringers. The aft part of the well sides should be flush with the aft side of the stringers. I've got a protrusion of the well sides from the stringers of about 1/8 to 3/16 inch (maybe more). Filing/sanding to a go flush with the stringers is probably not an option since much of the motor well profile exists away from the stringer. My guess is that this needs to be flush for a good mating with the transom.

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 11:08 am**

Transom fastening issues - The plans for the FS17 have specific measurements for the strongback dimensions. They are 166 1/8". While attempting to attach the transom, the strongback appears to be too long and interferes with this step. Altering the strongback will be a headache due to cross-framing (underneath) that runs the length of the strongback. Measurements of what I've done match the plans. What's wrong here? Any advise?

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 11:18 am**

Just looked at your post Marshall. I am in Seguin. East of San Antonio by 45 miles. Love to help but you may be nearer to GuyP than me. I think he’s only in Georgia. Durn sure willing to help. Good luck. Dr Pete

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 11:31 am**

Outside of our friends in Alaska we have ranches here bigger than some of the other folks whole states

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 11:33 am**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 11:08 am Transom fastening issues - The plans for the FS17 have specific measurements for the strongback dimensions. They are 166 1/8". While attempting to attach the transom, the strongback appears to be too long and interferes with this step. Altering the strongback will be a headache due to cross-framing (underneath) that runs the length of the strongback. Measurements of what I've done match the plans. What's wrong here? Any advise?

If you read the Jig Setup section it says,

from plans wrote: ● cut 2x6's (strongbacks) to the dimensions given on the plans. Their length is critical since it
locates the frames and the transom.
● Note the angle at the transom end, it matches the transom angle, 13 degrees. That means it
matches the stringer ends: no need to measure, you can use the stringers as a template.

Then if you look in the large sheets at the end it gives the exact dimensions for the strongback boards and the angle at the transom end.

From your picture it looks like you just need to trim your strongback to match the angle and it will fit.... I think

Hopefully that helps,

Narfi

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 2:02 pm**

From the designer:
see below, a picture extracted from the plans. Do not pay attention to the fonts, this is come from my CAD file/

The picture shows the construction drawing, the end of the strongbacks.
Note the angle. The strongback is angled. In your picture, it is straight. That is why the transom hits the strongback.
The solution is simple: move that cross beam forward a few inches and trim the strongbacks to the proper angle.
Once that is done, it should all fit properly.

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 2:03 pm**

Thanks Narfi, you are correct. I added a picture to make it super clear.

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 2:41 pm**

All great inputs; thank you!

Posted: **Mon May 17, 2021 4:14 pm**

Marshall,

If your stringer ends and motorwell sides have matching angles then you simply need to make sure the spacing is correct from the transom to the motorwell bulkhead. Since we had some issues with the stringer notches and had to adjust them I would tend to lead toward the motorwell sides as my spacing guide. Use the motorwell spacing as your guide and, if necessary, trim the stinger slightly.
Remember, it is ok to have slight gaps when going through this process. Small gaps (1/8" or less) are acceptable and will be filled with thickened epoxy and covered in fiberglass.
Going forward (after seeing the photos), I would follow the recommendation of Narfi and Jacques on the transom issue and then work out the spacing issue as I described above.

Good luck!
-Reid

Posted: **Mon May 24, 2021 9:51 pm**

Looking forward to watching your build. I work at Barksdale and Live about a hour east of there.

Posted: **Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:39 pm**

Catfishtoon: I just returned from a 3 month hiatus and noticed your post. What boat do you have? Complete or in the build?

Posted: **Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:43 pm**

Puzzle joints are all accomplished. I've reviewed several forum posts and some appear to have added tape before placing on the mold for the planking process. Is tape required?

Posted: **Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:04 pm**

Plastic or poly or ship tape shiny side won't stick to epoxy. Shrink wrap sucks; gets kinda stuck!

Someone might tape each side down to keep them from moving during the cure.

Posted: **Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:20 pm**

Thanks. It nearly appears to be fiberglass (tape).

Posted: **Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:17 pm**

Yes. Tape those joints both sides with fiberglass tape.

Posted: **Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:42 pm**

cape man wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:17 pm Yes. Tape those joints both sides with fiberglass tape.

X2

Posted: **Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:11 am**

Oh, crickeys! I didn't know he was asking about glassing the joint. Oi vey...I gotta read slower some days.

Posted: **Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:41 pm**

Great inputs from everyone; much appreciated!

Posted: **Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:13 pm**

I placed the bottom planks on the frame and all appear surprisingly good. Looking through the forum, a few quick questions if someone has some time:
1. When the stringers were dropped into the frame notches, they are sometimes slightly below the frame or sometimes flush. Is this a concern?
2. When placing the planks, do I align with the aft part of the transom?
3. I see references to lightly anchor the planks to the transom. Is this to stabilize the position or something else?

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:05 am**

The plywood does not have to touch the stringers the whole way. The big thing is to make sure it is fair. No two pieces of plywood will bend the same so small differences are to be expected. I think the hull bottom should run out over the transom but look at your plans to make sure.

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:42 am**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:43 pm Puzzle joints are all accomplished. I've reviewed several forum posts and some appear to have added tape before placing on the mold for the planking process. Is tape required?

It wouldn't hurt, but depending on the stress on that joint while planking it may not be required at this stage. See the designer's comment here. Regardless I would ensure that it has glass on it at some stage, whether now or later is up to you.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63904&p=441216&hilit=puzzle#p441216

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=63578&p=456631&hili ... pe#p456631

Posted: **Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:56 pm**

I've started planking. When the bottom planks are positioned, the gap in the seam between the planks accommodate a 16 penny nail fairly well with a notable exception: there is a much larger gap at the midway point on the boat. I'm unable to close that gap as I would go plank-to-plank, with no spacing, at the bow and the stern. The attached photo somewhat illustrates what's happening but does not show the size of the gap too well. My guess is a good 1/4 inch. Is there a solution? Any recommendations? Many thanks - Marshall

Posted: **Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:52 pm**

That is not a problem, get under the boat and tape the seam so putty does not fall through. Then as required fill the seam with wood putty. Then the 2-3 layers of tape as required. One quarter inch is not excessive and no cause for concern.

Tom

Posted: **Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:34 pm**

Posted: **Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:39 pm**

my fs17 was made from a large blob of wood flour thickened epoxy and sanded down to boat shape.... It seems to float ok

Posted: **Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:34 pm**

Tom, Fuzz, and Narfi - Thank you! I'm off on some unexpected travel but will resume the build in about a week. I'll post a few pics to show progress - Marshall

Posted: **Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:35 pm**

Tom - You mention 2-3 layers of tape. Is that the normal amount or am I increasing to that number because of the issue I described?

Posted: **Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:59 pm**

So, take a piece of plastic and tape it across the margin. Shipping or other tapes bond to the epoxy and are a b to remove.

If you make a super thick mix; it might not sag out, but a plastic liner insures it.

The glass tape layers are just to meet the specs in the build notes.

Posted: **Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:11 am**

I've always used what I've called "packing tape", sold in the box stores in 2' width with red red dispenser. Never had epoxy stick to it

Dougster

Posted: **Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:09 am**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:35 pm Tom - You mention 2-3 layers of tape. Is that the normal amount or am I increasing to that number because of the issue I described?

Marshall,
Make sure to follow the lamination schedule that Jacques has laid out in the plans.

: Capture.JPG (46.85 KiB) Viewed 1377 times

As others have mentioned, and we have previously discussed, once the panels are stitched together get under the hull and run some tape (I use blue painters tape) on the seams. This will stop any fillet from dripping through the other side thus saving you a lot of time sanding once you flip your hull.

As TomW1 mentioned, don't sweat small gaps (1/4" or less). These can be filled with fillet with no problem. Be concerned with the overall shape of the hull, as we discussed the other day.

-Reid

Posted: **Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:13 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:35 pm Tom - You mention 2-3 layers of tape. Is that the normal amount or am I increasing to that number because of the issue I described?

No 2 over lapping layers are normal, maybe 3 on larger boats. See Reid's response above and this should be in your plans.

Tom

Posted: **Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:10 am**

I'm struggling a bit to get a good shape and spacing as I stitch the bow. When I use a small piece of PVC, I have good luck with shape and spacing but that then interferes with the bow-mold. Omitting the PVC creates bad shape/spacing but does not interfere with the bow-mold. Any suggestions or ideas?

Posted: **Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:09 pm**

Try smaller diameter dowel, maybe even a pencil. Move PVC or dowel as far astern as possible. Maybe do away with dowel and just use a nail or whatever to prevent gap. Something will work.

Dougster

Posted: **Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:39 pm**

Notch the bow mould with an oscillating tool.

Posted: **Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:09 pm**

Dougster and Fallguy - I like both ideas...thanks!

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:55 pm**

I've temporarily attached the side panel to the transom. I've noticed that as I stitch and move the panels, the transom has flexed a minor amount. Is this permissible? Any concerns or recommendations? Thanks!

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:34 pm**

Marshall, post some good photos of what you are describing. This will assist the members in providing guidance!!! Jeff

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:53 pm**

Not a lot to show. The bottom of the transom (top of pic), must flex a bit to acquire good alignment with the side plank.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:01 pm**

Do you mean the transom or the bottom panel? Neither should be anything but dead straight back there. If you are talking a mm no big deal.

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:55 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:53 pm Not a lot to show. The bottom of the transom (top of pic), must flex a bit to acquire good alignment with the side plank.

Nothing fairing compound can't fix or you may never care.

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:01 pm**

If you don't pull it tight; you can keep it flat and no fairing...9

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:13 pm**

The bow and the side panels are stitched/hung and all look pretty darn good. The forward part of the boat looks like it should along with the shape. The alignment of the panels on the transom are all a bit skewed. The picture shows the side panels aligning well to the transom but there is some over-hang of the bottom panels on the transom (top of pic). Do I accept this and trim some material? It seems a bit too much for fillet or fairing. Also, the transom angle seems to be good.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:05 pm**

You will need to round off those edges anyway later on. 1/2" radius, or you will have a lot of air bubbles. Remember the wood is mostly a core. Remove it where you need to.

Posted: **Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:19 pm**

What owt says... I would trim the bottom panels to flush, then fill the edges square; then router..or handshape with plane or 40 grit

Posted: **Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:29 pm**

Oneway and Fallguy - Needed that advice and picture! Much appreciated. I'll remove a bit of the bottom panels by the transom and all should be good.

Posted: **Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:55 pm**

I plan to use small beads around the panels/boat as I tack weld. It seems that I should use more than that when I get to the multiply part of the transom. For this area, shouldn't I essentially cover this "entire" area when securing the side panels?

Posted: **Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:24 am**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:55 pm I plan to use small beads around the panels/boat as I tack weld. It seems that I should use more than that when I get to the multiply part of the transom. For this area, shouldn't I essentially cover this "entire" area when securing the side panels?

If you can handle it, yes. Give the edges a coat of neat epoxy and spread thickened epoxy adhesive on all the edges. Working around zip ties you have to work between them and then once that's set, remove the ties and get the rest. Don't forget to tape the inside of those joints so you don't end up with a big glob of hardened epoxy to remove. Got packing tape on the moulds, so you don't glue the hull to them?

Posted: **Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:47 pm**

Many thanks! Which is better: Packing tape or the wide painter's tape?

Posted: **Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:12 pm**

Wide painters tape is best. Tom

Posted: **Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:34 pm**

The corners of the side planks match up fairly nice with the corners of the transom. However, due to the angle of the transom, part of it protrudes beyond the panels. With most things lining-up fairly well, I want to make sure this is normal before spot-welding in case I'm missing something obvious.

Posted: **Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:10 pm**

Delete

Posted: **Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:19 pm**

Your side panels are a hair low, but you can tweak this with the rubrail/gunwhale I'd say.

The transom top is the high point, though. Nothing will go above it the way things go.

Here is a picture of the way Skoota finished A bit tricky because the gunwhales come down, but at the transom; the transom is the top. You will have to fill the gap with thickened resin is all....

Posted: **Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:58 pm**

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:19 pm Your side panels are a hair low, but you can tweak this with the rubrail/gunwhale I'd say.

Agreed. Your only option at the moment would be to trim that flat now but if it were me I wouldn't worry about it, I would wait to see how the rubrails and aft deck interface and then decide hope to cope with it. Maybe you'll end up building up the top of the transom at that angle with trim, or maybe you'll shave it flat and run the aft deck flush with it. Unless you already know the exact plan, I'd move on. Hitting it with a jack-plane later will be a simple task.

May want to check-in with narfi on it, marshall. I looked at his build and did not see that in the photos but he may have some sage input on it, he usually does.

Posted: **Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:34 pm**

Gentlemen - I'm confused on where the side panels match-up with the transom. If I leave as is, then I have a portion of the transom edge exposed. If I alter how the transom and the side panels mate to completely cover the edge of the transom, then the side panels will be above the the top-line of the transom (VERY crude image attached). To me it's a geometry problem since the transom is at an angle and the side panels are not. Honestly, I think I'm missing something.

Posted: **Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:05 am**

Remember when you mate the side panel to the edge of the transom it will have the same angle as the transom and will be the same size. Measure the length of the transom and the length of the side to see if I am not right. If not then one of them was cut wrong, as the side should cover the transom edge. Maybe some one who has built an FS17 can give you a better answer, but that is what I think it is for now.

Tom

Posted: **Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:11 am**

Not really awake yet but I'll try to look at the plans and my log for memory later today.... I think the transom is supposed to be set by motor well panels and not the side panels, but I might be remembering wrong. I vaguely remember having some questions at that stage as well.

Posted: **Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:29 am**

You are developing the sheer. In stitch n glue or foam boat builds, the sheer has to be adjusted at the transom or the transom adjusted to the sheer.

I find adjusting the transom silly and to me it looks odd because the engine powerhead and the transom top are not on the same angle.

I would make the sheer match the transom top. And I would not plane and sand off the transom. I like them to be angled.

You will just need to raise the sheer with the rubrail to meet the forward edge of the transom and put a little bend in the end to make it match. The purple is a rubrail; disregard the forward size discrepancy of the drawing. All that matters is the transom.

: F2C530EB-0EDD-49A7-912A-97AAC5295EAB.jpeg (90.28 KiB) Viewed 1242 times

Posted: **Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:04 am**

Here is an extreme example of adjusting the transom to the sheer where they have no choice.

: 58E3850B-B1FE-41CB-AAF5-38CC4C5F36EF.jpeg (59.63 KiB) Viewed 1236 times

Posted: **Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:07 am**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:34 pm Honestly, I think I'm missing something.

Possible but I suspect not. As has been pointed out, the transom top and the sheerline are in different planes so there's no one-size-fits-all way to join them without them still being in different planes. The right answer for you depends, I think, on your ultimate plan for rubrails/aft deck/motor well/etc and how all those things will tie together. The same issue normally exists between the transom bottom and the bottom panels, where some choose to plane the transom bottom "flat" and some choose to fill the gap. And then the same issue exists where the deck meets the sheer: there will be a small gap the length of the sheer unless you choose to plane the sheer "flat" in that plane. I planed my sheer flat to meet the deck, poorly, and then ended up filling a larger gap than if I had just gap-filled originally.

As has been pointed out also, keep in mind that this is a wood-cored boat, not a wood boat, and the wood parts are not meant to be joined in the traditional sense: composite material is used to bridge the gaps and form many/most/all of the transitions.

Posted: **Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:34 am**

All inputs greatly appreciated. My feeling is that the angle of the transom creates some unusual geometry where it mates to the side panels. There seems to be a natural fit that results in a small protrusion of the transom above the side panels. For now, I'm willing to accept during this phase. Get ready for questions on a solution as I get to glassing and rub-rail installation! Again, many thanks...

Posted: **Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:12 pm**

Ok, its been a while but my memory was right, the transom angle is set by the motorwell sides in the jig,
The transom is part of your jig.

: Screenshot 2021-11-17 100103.PNG.jpg (43.45 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

: Screenshot 2021-11-17 101006.jpg (38.33 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

Here are some of my pictures doing it,

The jig with motorwell sides setting the angle,

: 20171230_213519.jpg (91.41 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

Starting to tie up all the parts over the jig, the transom and stringers are set, the side and bottom panels can slide fore and aft for best fit, any overhang is sanded off, any underhang? is filled with woodflour/epoxy. I do remember that the side panels were not straight with the transom, but it was set by the motorwell sides.

: 20180101_211005.jpg (45.07 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

Here you can see just how much filler I used before rounding the corners for taping and glassing.

: 20180107_215457.jpg (46.18 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

Even when done it wasn't perfect, you can see one side sits higher on the transom than the other, I fixed that all with sanding/filling/planing and covering with the gunwalls and rubrails.

: 20180614_214214.jpg (77.35 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

If I learned anything during the process, it was that nothing needs to be perfect, you can fill and sand anything to look nice later.

I think right now the most critical thing is making sure your bottom panels are straight and have no hook or rocker.

Posted: **Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:13 pm**

Good exlanation Narfi. Tom

Posted: **Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:59 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:34 am All inputs greatly appreciated. My feeling is that the angle of the transom creates some unusual geometry where it mates to the side panels. There seems to be a natural fit that results in a small protrusion of the transom above the side panels. For now, I'm willing to accept during this phase. Get ready for questions on a solution as I get to glassing and rub-rail installation! Again, many thanks...

Just make nothing higher than the transom roght side up. It'll be great and water won't stand on it.

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:02 am**

Narfi, Tom, Fallguy - Many thanks!

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:27 pm**

Will tack weld this weekend and prep for tape. Most of what I read is that wet-on-wet is best. When I surf the forum, it seems like some do not use this technique when taping (I see sanded seams, complete joints with fillet and bevels, etc.). Any strong advice or opinions? Thanks!

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:30 pm**

Your work looks outstanding to me. At this point you need to mix up peanut butter like glue and tack her together. After the glue sets you remove the zip ties/ sand everything smooth/ round the edges for tape/ fill the gaps and lay tape.
Trying to glue things together and lay tape all at the same time at this point will not work out very well.

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:44 pm**

Second Fuzz.

The issue is movement. You can't tape over moving joints.

There is also time management.

It will be plenty of work to glue. Make sure the glue is stiff.

Just so you know, I really prefer to prewet plywood joints with epoxy just like a couple hours before filling. I have had enough wood to wood bonds fail to know the epoxy likes to get sucked into dry ply and wood end grains.

For the times I wanted to glue and tape, I typically used hot glue to stop the panel from moving. Then bonded, fillets, and tape. Ply bulkheads should never touch the hull, so the hotglue works well to close the gap, and get a hold so you can keep moving to the finish.

Prewetting is not real pretty, but it is pro grade work to do it.

Also, mix your glue onto a hawk or board to keep it thin so it doesn't kick. Some guys like the pastry bag, but it is really a nightmare for these joins for me. When you mix onto a hawk, pile the stuff up in the middle and watch it for 10 seconds. If it starts to settle; it needs more filler. Once stiff enough, lay it down thin; it'll buy you time on the batch.

The other thing about prewetting same day is the curing epoxy in the seam is sticky as hell and will help resist stuff falling out..sag..

Prewetting too far ahead is bad. The epoxy will cure and be impossible to sand in the joint for secondary bonding...

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:04 pm**

I did pre-coat with a thin layer of epoxy during the very initial stage. Are you suggesting wetting all edges before tacking with the fillet? For tackweld?

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:16 pm**

You also need to get under the boat and tape the seams with blue painters tape so that none of the goop goes through to the inside of the inside of the seems. it is a mess to try and sand and clean up when you flip the boat.

Tom

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:09 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:04 pm I did pre-coat with a thin layer of epoxy during the very initial stage. Are you suggesting wetting all edges before tacking with the fillet? For tackweld?

A neatcoat is a good way to go Marshall. The clear epoxy gets into small cracks n crevices and you get the advantage of sticky.

Follow Tom on the masking tape..

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:07 pm**

Once again, great advice. I've taped the underside today. Tomorrow I will put a thin coat of epoxy on the edges followed by some thick fillet on the seams. I think that's what the guidance has been? Thanks!

Posted: **Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:15 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:07 pm Once again, great advice. I've taped the underside today. Tomorrow I will put a thin coat of epoxy on the edges followed by some thick fillet on the seams. I think that's what the guidance has been? Thanks!

Just make sure the neat coat is really sticky before you start to fill or it'll all fall out.

Posted: **Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:19 pm**

Since the work looks so good as it is, "spot weld" with peanut butter in a few strategic locations that will hold it as it is, and you'll be able to cut the zip ties. Once zip ties are cut and spot welds sanded smooth, you can go full send on wet on wet. Wet the edges, fillet all of the seams, tape, glass, etc. This is the fast moving portion of the build. Enjoy!

Posted: **Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:13 pm**

Dan - Thanks! I've decided against wet-on-wet. Probably an experience issue. I am making some progress and should tape soon.

Posted: **Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:17 pm**

Making some good progress and hope to tape towards week's end. Question: Do I form a radius on all panels at the transom (bottom and side)? I'm assuming "yes." I've attached an illustration provided by Fallguy during a previous forum discussion.

Posted: **Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:18 pm**

Anything that gets glass needs a radius.

On the transom, the bottom to dwl needs to be returned to sharpish. I prefer the sharpen the entire transom. But sandpaper break razor sharp edges so paints can adhere and not move away.

Posted: **Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:23 pm**

Right, you radius it for glassing, then once glasses you sharpen the edge under water with thickened epoxy.

Water will break off of a sharp edge cleanly, but will roll up and follow a radiuses edge which causes drag at the rear and shoots water up the forward sides.

Posted: **Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:15 pm**

Double post, sorry

Posted: **Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:35 pm**

Thanks!

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:16 pm**

About ready to tape and looking at my fillet on the bow. I'm assuming no sharp edges due to tape and glass? Semi-rounded or work hard on an emphasized constant radius? I still need to sand a bit and work on some imperfections but thought some answers to these questions might be wise now before going any further.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:26 pm**

Take the glass you are planning on using and make sure it will go around the stem very easy. Much better to round that over too much than not enough.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:32 pm**

I fear I might have caught something others missed. You mentioned a precoat in the initial stage. Was this all the wood surfaces, or just edges? Any wood anywhere coated with epoxy more than a day old (depends on brand and type) must be sanded with ~80grit before laying coats or glass on top. You can't overdo this, going to bare wood is not an issue. But everything must be toothed good, and clean. Major amounts of dust need to be removed, but small amounts will be incorporated into the epoxy as filler.

I precoated the inside of my boat as I was building outside. When the time came to do the inside I did it in sections (I'm a slow worker) and spent about 2 hours sanding each section multiple times. Probably overkill. It can help to fill the weave of glass within 24 hours with a loose mix to provide a more uniform surface to sand and glass too. If you can hit it again with the next layer of glass in less than 3 days there will usually still be some chemical bonding but I would always sand/scratch thoroughly anything that's over a day old.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:02 pm**

Yes I did pre-coat (all surfaces). I was unaware that I needed to sand before tape and glass.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:02 pm**

You just need to rough up the hardened epoxy to get a physical bond with the glass and next layer of epoxy. If you go to bare wood make sure to precoat it with neat epoxy before applying the glass. Let it soak in for a few hours to make sure the wood isn't "starved" before laying glass.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:13 pm**

All good inputs; thank you. I'll sand/rough all areas before I tape and glass. Much appreciated!

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:37 pm**

In the fillets vs cleats thread I posted a really informative article on the mechanics and chemical side of getting good bonding. It's well worth a read, you will learn something.

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:05 am**

Sounds interesting; will read today. Thank you.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:39 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:13 pm All good inputs; thank you. I'll sand/rough all areas before I tape and glass. Much appreciated!

This is critical. I have sanded a few places where I figured I could go by the 72 hour Silvertip bond window and I was not pleased with layer on layer adhesion. Now, I sand anything cured overnite.

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:28 pm**

Does the radius need to be precise across the dimension of the transom? I don't have a router but can certainly buy/borrow. Would sanding be adequate (even though not consistent)?

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:02 pm**

In my opinion, sanding is more than fine. I have always been able to eyeball and hand sand the radius. You will be able to dial in the final edge once it is glassed and you move to the fairing stage.

-Reid

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:09 pm**

2nd Reid.

Run a good sander like a Festool RtS 400 or work by hand a flat about 1/4" wide on a 45 and then round it put by flattening each angle.

I cut down a piece of pvc like 1.5" or 1.25" on the table saw. Glue it on a piece of wood with a hot glue gun. Rip it down to about 1/3rd size.

Put velcro on the inside and you can put 1/4 sheet papers with hook n loop on it. Just be a little gentle removing them.

40 grit paper will remove a lot of wood nicely

Posted: **Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:13 pm**

I'm all about the grinder with 20grit for this kind of sanding. Routers work fine, but the radius needs to be big enough. If you use a grinder then you can get'er'done quickly. One trick is to use a circular saw with the blade set to 45 degrees down the edges. If you are careful and brave enough, it works well and then you can sand the transitions. When you glass it I find I can get the glass to stick better with a thickened epoxy on the curve, under the initial layer.

Posted: **Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:20 am**

All great inputs; thanks! Hope to make some good progress this weekend...

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:47 pm**

Is there a lower limit to effectively work with epoxy when taping/glassing? My guess is that I won't see anything lower than 45-50 degrees in my workspace. Any inputs?

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:09 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:47 pm Is there a lower limit to effectively work with epoxy when taping/glassing? My guess is that I won't see anything lower than 45-50 degrees in my workspace. Any inputs?

The hardener of whatever epoxy system you use will specify the temperature range including a lower limit. Note at colder temps even if a fast hardener will still cure wetting out cloth can be more difficult since the epoxy becomes thicker. You may find you want to add heat somehow even if the epoxy will cure.

Posted: **Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:56 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:47 pm Is there a lower limit to effectively work with epoxy when taping/glassing? My guess is that I won't see anything lower than 45-50 degrees in my workspace. Any inputs?

At those temps the epoxy will not cure it will just set there and begin curing as the temps warm up. At 50 it will begin to slowly cure. How big is your workspace? In my garage just 2 electrical heaters added 15-20 degrees to my temp. Cost $50. The type of and speed of the hardened will have some effect but not much at these lower temps.

Tom

Posted: **Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:09 am**

I work in a pretty steady 60f. Slow will be set up but too soft to sand well over night. Fast will be ready for sanding the next morning. Put your epoxy some place warm a few hours before using and it will work much easier.
Like Tom says it should not take much to raise your temp enough to get good cures. 45-50f is not like working in -20

Posted: **Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:32 pm**

Tom gave sound advice. Epoxy is an odd duck. Below about 55F and it'll do zilch. Around 60F, for most epoxies it'll cure.

Applying 55F epoxy is a bad idea. Why? You'll use more. I don't mean 10%, but like 25% more. It becomes honey-like.

Try to get the atmosphere to 60F minimum and heat the epoxy either by leaving it in the house or using a warm water bath. Warming it too much will speed the gel time.

I epoxied a small section of camper one day and it was only 50F outside. I literally used a hair dryer for an hour on the spot to get it to gel...

Posted: **Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:30 pm**

I did not mention it but fallguy did keeping it in the house the night before using it then placing it in front of the fans will keep it warm as you use it.

Tom

Posted: **Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:43 am**

Warming the epoxy will make it thinner, but even if it's nice and warm if the material you're epoxying isn't also warm, you're wasting your time. Cold plywood and fiberglass will chill things down quickly, so it's got to be warmed up, too. If the hull is together and upside down you can put a heater under the boat and warm it up in a few hours, if it's right side up you may need to build a tent around and over the hull to hold heat in.
Working in cold temperatures is a pain, it requires extra effort and in some cases isn't worth it.

Posted: **Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:16 pm**

Great advice; thanks to all. I'm unable to find a temp range on the epoxy provided, but will work harder getting that data. My workspace is part of a 3 car garage. The idea of a few electric heaters and synching with a good weather forecast may be the way to go (along with warming the jugs of epoxy/hardener before in advance). Again, much appreciated!

Posted: **Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:01 pm**

Warming everything up before hand is great, but very critical you let it cool down as it cures.
Heating plywood offgasses and will leave nasty blisters in your glass work.

Just think of the plywood as a big balloon. The air inside will expand and blow out when warming and will contract and suck in when cooling.

Posted: **Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:08 pm**

Understood. Is there a good temp range that is considered optimal?

Posted: **Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:15 pm**

Hehe... 85 cooling down to 75....

But you aren't working in optimal. Mine turned out fine in Alaska, so just do the best with what you have

Posted: **Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:17 pm**

Marshaall just seal off your work area wilt a double layer of plastic from the the other part of the garage. This is what I did as my garage if a 3 bay also. It also kept the other side clean. I don't know what epoky you have but 70-75 degrees is a good temp to work and keep your work space at both day and night.

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:22 am**

More good advice; thank you. Working now to prep my area for tape and glass. Should start that in a day or so...

Posted: **Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:28 pm**

I don't see a splice requirement in the building notes. However, many in the forum seem to recommend. Unless someone advises otherwise, I plan to accomplish on all joints. Questions: Is it as simple as a single piece of 6" fiberglass tape (with epoxy) down/parallel with the joint? Is something more required? This also seems easiest during the taping process of the panels. Correct? Any inputs greatly appreciated!

Posted: **Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:54 pm**

That's what I did cutting my own panels so just two straight panel ends without the puzzle joints. A layer of 6" tape, flip it over after cure and 6" tape on the other side.

Make sure you have a good flat surface when you first assemble with good flat surface and weights on top.... You really don't want it epoxied together unevenly.....

Posted: **Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:23 am**

Narfi - Thanks!

Posted: **Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:05 pm**

If not in the building notes; I'd be inclined to only tab that joint on the inside; especially if the joint gets covered with more than a 6 oz woven. Simply because fairing that would be more work. So much depends on requirements and finish. Requirements always must be met. If you want a great finish, fairing that seam is harder to make it vanish..

Of course, I have not built a ply boat, but plan to do so.

Seems like the designer ought to say. If this is a cnc kit; Reid ought to have an idea as well.

On the other hand, a 6 oz tape is fairly thin and you can fix the bump with compounds and work...

Posted: **Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:21 pm**

I always cover my puzzle joints inside and out with 6 inch wide glass tape. The interior is certainly a must in my opinion if it is not already covered with the scheduled glass lay-up. I hit a log with my SK 14 and the hull puzzle joint cracked a little bit but I did not have any glass at that interior joint. I ended up cutting into the deck and putting tape in those areas. The image is my Panga 22 at the exterior puzzle joint. I will do the same layup on the interior of the puzzle joint.

Posted: **Sat Mar 12, 2022 6:56 pm**

I would at least cover the puzzle joints on the bottom of the hull with 6" tape where the most pressure is received. The 12oz on the sides should be enough for the side puzzle joints to reinforce them.

Tom

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:31 pm**

Tom, PapaDave, Fallguy - Just saw these replies. Much appreciated! I just completed taping and about to post a few questions. - Thanks, Marshall

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:34 pm**

I may have some tape issues. Much of what I accomplished looks real good (straight, transparent, etc.). However, I’ve got several areas that have an opaque coloring. The lighting sometimes emphasizes this, but in any case, it does exist. I don’t think that these are air bubbles. When I look closely and apply pressure, it does not give that impression. I have no experience and can’t make that call. Any ideas? Any suggestions?

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:54 pm**

That first picture looks like the glass was a little dry to me. Maybe the plywood sucked some resin away after you put the tape on. did you pr wet the wood or lay the tape on dry?

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:27 pm**

I did pre-wet all the surfaces. My routine was the same for all of the tape. Some results were good, some not. I'm really trying to understand what occurred, and more importantly, what to do next.

Posted: **Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:05 am**

Your tape running up the keel looks very good. If you did the transom the same way I am lost other than guessing it was too dry but you said it was not dry so

Posted: **Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:00 am**

Judgement call on your part really. There will be a lot of glass there so as long as bonding isn't compromised, and there are no major air bubbles you could just glass over it. If it's bubbles on the seam then possibly grind them out, fill with putty and glass over. It's a good idea to fill weave asap so you aren't grinding glass btw.

If you are really not happy with it, then remove and reglass from scratch. Best way to remove large amounts of glass is a heatgun. Softens the epoxy and the glass pulls right off with a scraper. Score it first with a carbide cutter if you want to remove sections.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:41 pm**

Fuzz and OneWay - I guess the wood might have taken the epoxy rather than the tape. While I don't see any air pockets, it is probably best to re-tape. I'll give the heat-gun a try later today and remove the problem areas. Thanks for the inputs! -- Marshall

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:12 pm**

So, I have a good share of epoxy experience. I see one of two things.

1. Possible gelation prior to consolidating. This you can affirm based on your time. If you were rolling on the tapes at the end of the kick time; you can be sure this was the cause.

2. Possible poor consolidation/air. I am really fussy about what I use to consolidate. I only use bubble buster rollers. The others simply do not drive air out well enough. Too little epoxy will also be trouble here.

I prefer to wet all my tapes off the boat on plastic. They should never be white. White means they are not wetted enough. Another reason to bubble bust. I like to pour a little epoxy top and bottom. Long tapes roll over themselves to reduce epoxy losses to the plastic/table.

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:34 pm**

I'd not use a heat gun. Get out your sander and 40 grit and sand in a white spot until you determine bond strength. Heat can damage the substrate. Some of the work looks okay.

The application rate for prewetting is about 6oz for the roller and 2oz per square yard. Roll on, wait about one hour and if the substrate looks dry, roll it again.

The thing about the wetout rate for the tapes is this.

100% mixed epoxy by weight to tapes is the standard, 65% is the minimum; the wood can take 35-40%, more and you fail.

So, weigh your tapes. Say 2 pounds of tape or 32 oz needs 2/9.1? Pounds per gallon for your epoxy? And you get 0.22 gallons epoxy or 28 ounces. I always round up to nearest standard because losses always occur. So, 2-1 epoxy is 3 parts, 28 rounds to 30,
So 20 resin and 10 hardener is what I would mix for my example.

If you try to hand laminate over wood with less than 100%-it will bomb until you gain experience and even then, lotsa variables.

Here is the only roller I use. The others are not as good. I found a different brand last time. 1/2 x 6, but woth the same slats..they must go in the acetone immediately or you'll ruin them..

http://www.merrittsupply.com/product/bo ... g-rollers/

Not sure if Jeff sells the bubble busters, but he ought to..

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:51 pm**

Fallguy - GREAT advice; thank you. -- Marshall

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:28 pm**

Jeff sells several laminating rollers, but I think this was the one fallguy was thinking of,
https://www.boatbuildercentral.com/prod ... -roller-6/

Tom

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:29 pm**

TomW1 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:28 pm Jeff sells several laminating rollers, but I think this was the one fallguy was thinking of,
https://www.boatbuildercentral.com/prod ... -roller-6/

Tom

That one would work. Thanks Tom

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:33 pm**

I've removed a suspect area of tape (see previous posts). I now have to re-tape the bow and then back a foot or so into the keel. All of these areas (bow, keel) require 2 layers of tape. Q: When applying these new tape layers, can I simply butt the new tape to where the old tape ends or will a splice be required? A splice on top of 2 layers might add a bit of thickness, but can certainly be accomplished if needed. Any suggestions?

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:33 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:33 pm I've removed a suspect area of tape (see previous posts). I now have to re-tape the bow and then back a foot or so into the keel. All of these areas (bow, keel) require 2 layers of tape. Q: When applying these new tape layers, can I simply butt the new tape to where the old tape ends or will a splice be required? A splice on top of 2 layers might add a bit of thickness, but can certainly be accomplished if needed. Any suggestions?

I'd overlap the joins by 6".

Posted: **Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:10 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:33 pm I've removed a suspect area of tape (see previous posts). I now have to re-tape the bow and then back a foot or so into the keel. All of these areas (bow, keel) require 2 layers of tape. Q: When applying these new tape layers, can I simply butt the new tape to where the old tape ends or will a splice be required? A splice on top of 2 layers might add a bit of thickness, but can certainly be accomplished if needed. Any suggestions?

Depends where it is...Barraman is not wrong, but you might be able to get away with less, or patching and a full nother tape might be easier to fair.

So pictures would help..

You can also taper grind the good tapes for 3" and lay on the new tape if biax tapes and taper grind them to get things fairer, for example. But not with a 6oz woven..

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:17 am**

The attached pic is not real good, but all I have right now to send. It would be easy to butt a new double/overlapping run against what exists. A splice makes sense, but not sure it's required.

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:58 am**

You don't want to develop hook in the hull, so for that spot, I'd sand the remaining tape to zero in 3", lay another tape over it to the zero point and sand it to flat after it cures. If any of this is not understood, please ask again. If you sand into the wood too much, make thickened resin before adding new tape..

On the inside of the transom, I'd add another tape over spec. All tapes must be staggerred when you add. They never stack over each other on their width. The exception will be your repair tape.

Pic added.

Black is existing tape ground to taper.

Gold is new tape.

Red shows sanding off to flat concept.

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:56 am**

Some confusion on my part. Is this accurate: Sand the existing tape back to approximately 3 inches, then lay the new tape onto the sanded/reduced area. Correct? Is another piece on-top suggested or not? Sorry for the confusion, just want to get this right. Also, what are the do’s and don’ts when sanding tape? Can I get into any trouble?

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:10 am**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:56 am Some confusion on my part. Is this accurate: Sand the existing tape back to approximately 3 inches, then lay the new tape onto the sanded/reduced area. Correct? Is another piece on-top suggested or not? Sorry for the confusion, just want to get this right. Also, what are the do’s and don’ts when sanding tape? Can I get into any trouble?

Taper what you have. The tape thickness is about 0.035". Sand the cut edge at the bottom off and make a taper for 3". See pic.

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:15 am**

Dos and don'ts...

Well, sanding makes fines, so I recommend gloves or that stuff gets into finger webs and washing won't remove it.

If you can't get the thing feathered real well, you might need to use some thickened epoxy when you lay the new tape, but it should work.

Another option is to remove the entire tape and start over, but not sure if that is a top tape or under the others. If it is a top tape; that may be easier, but if it is under; then you have to grind the remainder down that way as well.

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:17 am**

No matter what you do, you can't leave the jagged edge you have now.

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:34 am**

Understood. All great inputs; thank you! One last question: After I taper and then lay the new tape, is a splice-piece between old and new required?

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:28 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:34 am Understood. All great inputs; thank you! One last question: After I taper and then lay the new tape, is a splice-piece between old and new required?

No. You lay the new piece up just passed where the old tape is full thickness. Then after it cures, take a 2-4' level and it will rock on the old tape and new tape intersection. Sand it until the level rocks no more.

Make sure the level is a good flat one!

Look at my first picture the red line is the sanding flat part best I could do pictorally.

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:00 pm**

Makes sense now; much appreciated!

Posted: **Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:24 am**

I hope to glass the hull in the next few days. Many questions along with the need for guidance (will accomplish using 2 people): I pre-coated all wood with epoxy before framing and then sanded. Do I need to pre-wet before laying the glass cloth? It seems most on the forum did not, but wanted to get inputs. Any suggestions on relief cuts? I plan on two sheets and will overlap each on the keel line. Also, any tips on a general approach and a glassing tempo would be appreciated!

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:41 am**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:24 am I hope to glass the hull in the next few days. Many questions along with the need for guidance (will accomplish using 2 people): I pre-coated all wood with epoxy before framing and then sanded. Do I need to pre-wet before laying the glass cloth? It seems most on the forum did not, but wanted to get inputs. Any suggestions on relief cuts? I plan on two sheets and will overlap each on the keel line. Also, any tips on a general approach and a glassing tempo would be appreciated!

It all depends on the glass.

Glass of 12oz biax will wet down through, but never as easy as some under first. Lighter no mat glass tends to get a little snaky, so you will want to dry lay all the glass first AND mark it and the boat for lengths of the glass to avoid pulling or pushing and getting lengths messed up.

For biax, I prefer to dry lay and mark the glass and the boat every 3', think snake references. Then I wet with a roller at 40% of the glass weight OR at least 2oz per yard, plus some for a paint roller. Keep a squeegee around to get epoxy out of whatever paint roller you use.

Try to avoid mixing errors. An error is a bad nightmare. Do NOT allow anyone else to mix. If you plan to mix per side or per piece or per piece at the bottom amounts, write Batch codes on the jugs. You can have helper stir, but you own the mix errors always. 300 gallons of epoxy use here and 3 mix errors...two were using 2 oz hardener and 1 oz resin on 3 oz batches..don't ask me how I messed those up, but I did

Then if biax, roll the area you plan to roll the glass real quick with 2oz per yard or up to 40%
Of the glass weight. This is subject to gravity, so can't give you total advice. Sides won't hold it. Roll the fabric on off a 3" cardboard tube to marks. Quickly roll over it with bubble buster. Then spot dump the other amounts and squeegee or paint roller as even as possible. Squeegee heavy areas. Never try to finish roll with paint roller as it lifts glass. If using one hour epoxy, about 30 minutes in, squeegee out the paint roller if using one and shitcan it. I like the adjesive rollers 1/8 from HD the best for this work.

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:48 am**

The helper should hold the glass if you are rolling it off a tube. It likes to walk off the starting spots.

As for reliefs or darts, plan all aheas of time. You can use a light hold tiny piece of masking tape for dryfitting, but it does like to mess up the glass easy.

Overlaps, always wet the area well; the glass won't wet down through 4 layers of biax well. So, the first area must be wetted well.

There is no reason to rush. If you are getting close to gel times, make sure to acetone wash all your tools and start again. Getting gelled epoxy on rollers and squeegee is a nightmare.

I keep acetone in a 5 gallon bucket about an inch deep with a lid. You can toss tools in their that are solvent resistant and wash them quick.

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:26 am**

A tip Cracker Larry used that I thought was worth repeating: he calculated and then measured all the epoxy he was going to need before beginning the layup. He used two colors of solo cups- red for resin and blue for hardener, had them placed on a nearby table. I don't recall how much he put in each cup, but they were not close to full. It was an amount he felt he could handle comfortably without worrying about it setting up too quickly. Pick up one red cup and one blue cup, combine and mix, pour onto hull. By doing it this way there was no need to rush the measuring process- similar to fitting and marking the glass while dry, it's another thing that can be done free of time pressure.

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:04 pm**

pee wee wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:26 am A tip Cracker Larry used that I thought was worth repeating: he calculated and then measured all the epoxy he was going to need before beginning the layup. He used two colors of solo cups- red for resin and blue for hardener, had them placed on a nearby table. I don't recall how much he put in each cup, but they were not close to full. It was an amount he felt he could handle comfortably without worrying about it setting up too quickly. Pick up one red cup and one blue cup, combine and mix, pour onto hull. By doing it this way there was no need to rush the measuring process- similar to fitting and marking the glass while dry, it's another thing that can be done free of time pressure.

Yes. On big jobs, I batch all my containers, so for a job like this one, probably three batches or four per side.

Batch A might be 40% of the first panels weight. Two jugs, one for hardener, one for resin, I prefer same size jugs and clear so I can see they look right.
Mix then roll.

Batch B might be the 60% batch for the top of the first piece. Mix then roll.

Batch c might be a lighter amount since it is the side panels and gravity a factor. So, say 20 % of the total panel weight. Mix then roll.

Then Batch D maybe 80%. Mix then roll and hope to not lose it all to the floor real bad.. I'd mix and then use a paint roller probably for the initial wetout. Then squeegee it out and squeegee or bubble buster the end.

I like a chip brush 2" to move excess to dry spots as well. Just scrape excess areas with a squeegee into a mixed resin pail and then chip brish any dry spots..

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:48 pm**

Panel weight calc example.

Most important to understand epoxy volumes are lower than epoxy weights for big jobs.

Weigh the glass.
4 yards of 12oz biax=48 ounces or 3#

Translate glass weight to epoxy weight to epoxy volume.

3#/9#/gallon = .3333 gallons x 128 liquid oz per gallon = 43 ounces epoxy, roundemup for rollers, losses to 45 volumetric oz epoxy or 30 liquid oz resin and 15 oz hardener

Take note, 48 ounces of fiberglass is not 48 liquid ounces of epoxy when we say 1:1.... we mean the glass and epoxy weights are the same, not glass weight and epoxy volume!

If you did the epoxy by weight, it would be the same
32 weighed oz resin
16 weighed oz hardener for 2:1 epoxies

I don't use weight for large batches ever. It is really not wise because too many potential errors when you can easily see graduated jugs and quickly realize 30 oz of resin and 15 of hardener for 2:1 epoxies..

epoxy is dense, so the liquid mass is less than the fluid amount...if that makes sense..

So 45 liquid oz epoxy is 45/128 gallons or 0.3515 gallons or 3.1635 pounds...with the roundup

At least familiarize yourself with what I have written; this concept took me awhile to learn on my own..

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:50 pm**

For my examples, you might save some resin, so I decided to write it all up. For a big job, it can add up..

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:28 pm**

Fallguy and Pee Wee - All great advice. I've jumped into the "resin calculator" at BBC. I will be using 12oz glass.
- At a practical level, how do I achieve 40% glass? I understand the calculation and strategy/goal, but how is that accomplished?
- What does does a proper amount of epoxy look like during application over the glass fabric? Thin, thick, etc.?

Again, much appreciated! -- Marshall

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:54 pm**

I think you mis-phrased your question, it should have been, How do I use 40% resin? This takes practice and a normal first time builder normally achieves 50% at best. If your not careful you can get areas that are epoxy starved. Well good luck and take it one step at a time and allow a 6" overlap at the keel for both pieces.

Tom

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:22 pm**

There are many worse things you can do to a boat other than being a little over generous with the resin. It will weigh more, cost more, and not be stronger. However it will still be strong enough and the difference in cost and weight is relatively small in the big scheme of things. By all means go for a good wet out with minimal epoxy, but don't lose sleep over using too much resin.

I roughly estimate mine per square area, add on a little for the wood if need be, and then pour it on. I use a spreader to move it around and then let it soak in for a bit. Then when it goes clear I use the spreader at a 45 degree angle with moderate pressure to remove excess. This excess will often be foamy, no good for wetting out. Put it into a spare container.

If everything aligns and it's a big job you can take the foamy excess, mix in some fresh epoxy and some filler and use it to fill the weave on an area that you have already done, as long as the epoxy has gelled there. This can help prevent waste. You can store mixed epoxy in the freezer if you need to buy an hour or two.

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:45 pm**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:28 pm Fallguy and Pee Wee - All great advice. I've jumped into the "resin calculator" at BBC. I will be using 12oz glass.
- At a practical level, how do I achieve 40% glass? I understand the calculation and strategy/goal, but how is that accomplished?
- What does does a proper amount of epoxy look like during application over the glass fabric? Thin, thick, etc.?

Again, much appreciated! -- Marshall

40%...sounds complex; it ain't

So, say you are wetting one yard of 12 oz glass

Needs 12oz of mixed resins by weight

Bottom substrate gets 2 oz minimum to 40%. 40% is 4.8oz by weight.

So, you roll out 40% on the substrate, roll the cloth, then roll 60% on the fabric or 7.2 oz for the top

This is a little nonsense for one yard. But for more, it makes a lot of sense and helps avoid losing batches..

Take note, I did not convert to volumes here.

Let me know if you are still confused. Biax is two layers of glass and wets nicer from each side then top down only..

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:04 am**

Take a look at the C-19 thread in builders power boats. In the last picture he posted he shows his gunwales. They are wet out well but you can still see the stitching.This is what you are shooting for, wet out well but not so much resin that you float the glass. After it dries you can sand off the stitching and move on.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:50 am**

This is extremely helpful. GREAT suggestions. MANY thanks!

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:58 am**

Fuzz - Who's C-19?

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:51 pm**

viewtopic.php?t=64446&start=480

Dans C19 in Richmond. His build thread is in the builders power boat section.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:58 pm**

Outstanding; thank you.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:23 pm**

About to start the fairing process. My understanding is a medium-thick fairing epoxy mixture applied to all parts of the hull. Multiple layers with multiple sandings between each. I would guess the initial coats of fairing would have minimal sanding and then more sanding as the process develops. Is there a min/max fairing thickness? How is the best way to develop an edge along the chine and transom? What are the common mistakes? What other tips and techniques exist? Lots of questions and always ready to listen and learn...

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:45 pm**

The best way to fair is to use a lead pencil and determine fill amounts and write on the hull. For example, +1/8", 0, +1/16"

This is the best advice I never got.

Fill tools must not be too flimsy; this is not the same as water based joint compounds.

Do not assume typical sheetrocker methods work; they don't. A sheetrocker fills corners first. This is a botch.

Fill all the deeper areas first.

Make sure to use long enough tools to determine low spots.

Generally, the bottom is faired on 45 degree angles to the chine. But make sure the angle makes sense.

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:58 pm**

Fallguy - Great inputs and help. Thank you. I plan to start tomorrow...

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:43 pm**

General fill and sand direction for you to be perfect

: 989273A4-F36E-49E9-BB63-5EA41C3C6E16.jpeg (105.85 KiB) Viewed 1207 times

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:17 pm**

OK, I'll work in that direction on those angles. Thanks!

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:58 pm**

Just a general guide; you'll need to run the tool and check spacings. I use angle iron screwed to wood.

Posted: **Sun May 01, 2022 9:25 am**

Should I start building an edge on the chine immediately or a bit later in the fairing process? Is there a good technique for this?

Posted: **Sun May 01, 2022 9:46 am**

MarshallTX wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 9:25 am Should I start building an edge on the chine immediately or a bit later in the fairing process? Is there a good technique for this?

You can do it as you go.. No technique for the chine. You can make a mould on the transom if u r creative.

I squared off the transom top to make it look pro.

The main thing is don't ever apply fairing compounds over dusty stuff. Dust is the enemy.

I kinda like to use fiber on tbe transom edge. Figure it less likely to chip.

Posted: **Sun May 01, 2022 10:14 am**

Agree with fallguy do it as you go and fair both the bottom and the sides. Don't forget once you get your chines and transom sharp you will need to round them over a little, like an 1/8" so that the paint will hold on. Paint will tend to flake off a sharp chine.

Tom

Posted: **Sun May 01, 2022 11:19 am**

TomW1 wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 10:14 am Agree with fallguy do it as you go and fair both the bottom and the sides. Don't forget once you get your chines and transom sharp you will need to round them over a little, like an 1/8" so that the paint will hold on. Paint will tend to flake off a sharp chine.

Tom

Yup, crazy as it is break those sharpened edges or paint will go ultra thin on you.

Posted: **Mon May 02, 2022 8:03 pm**

Gentlemen - Again, great advice. Much appreciated! - Marshall

Posted: **Wed May 04, 2022 9:54 pm**

Finally started the first fairing layer using the blended filler and epoxy (will move to QuickFair next). A few basic questions: - For sanding, is an orbital sander with fine grit too aggressive? What's a good sanding solution? Also, I made my first attempt at applying fairing using a plastic spreader-blade. Seemed OK, but wondering if there is a better tool? I've looked around on the Forum and see a lot of different ideas and wanted to post to get some input. Thanks!

Posted: **Wed May 04, 2022 10:25 pm**

Fairing tools need to be stiff.

I use a 6" drywall knife to apply, but almost never to pull.

I bought 12-14" concrete trowels and used them.

I bought aluminum angle irons about 1x1x1/8" and screwed 1x4 or 1x6 handles to each one. They are long enough to cover the greatest fill spans.

I have a 21" flexitool and a 34" flexi trowel and a 39" flexisander for a torture board. It has a bar in it you can remove for contours. But you can save your money and get a piece of very flat wood and make it so you can put hook and loop papers on.

I start torture work at 40 or 60 grit, being careful to not sand down into glass much.

After the basic shapes look good, I fill again and hit it all with 80 grit. It was really hard on me.

Once I pass the 80 grit flat tool sanding, I fill with a colored compound that is quikfair. It is pinkish. Then I sand with a festool rts400 and the passes are all vertical half laps. The festool uses 80-120 grit first pass. I like to get to 180 grit before any paint goes on. For paint, a dust coat from spray cans or single primer coat helps you not lose your mind in layers and feathering. I don't like the spray, so I used epoxy primer. Once you prime, you can scuff and fair some more if needed. The epoxy primer is damn hard. My festool sander is all I used at the end. I had a 8" oscillating sander I spent a fortune on, but it was air powered and my air was too damp and the thing made ice in like the first 60 seconds of use. The festool papers last like 2-4 square feet only on the primer and less on the 2 paks. These paints are super hard.

Let me know if you are confused. I sort of have it down to a science.

Posted: **Fri May 06, 2022 2:17 pm**

Fallguy - Again, great advice. Makes more sense as I move into the project. You mentioned earlier that this is not like sheet rock (at least at the corners). Is it fair to say it is similar at some of the relief cuts? So far, it does remind me a bit of drywall mud when trying to level/smooth ridges. - Again, many thanks - Marshall

Posted: **Fri May 06, 2022 6:05 pm**

It is just a bit thicker than rock mud. So thin trowels tend to float over it or hog into it.

Wall guys try to make walls look okay. Boat guys try to make the boat look fair. Fair is a step above okay.

Posted: **Fri May 06, 2022 6:52 pm**

A bit thicker than rock mud? Thanks! That tidbit does help. My approach has been a bit thicker (relative) for seams, overlaps, imperfections and a bit thinner (relative) for the smooth open areas of glass. Not sure if that's a good approach...

Posted: **Fri May 06, 2022 7:40 pm**

Mix it the same all the time, by weight.

My batches are 75/25 sil32 balloons to cabosil. 100g

Or 80/20

And 543g mixed resins or something like that. 380g resin and 163g hardener

Every now and then I go a little less dry stuff, but like a gram.

It is a big batch, cut in half or quarters.

Posted: **Fri May 06, 2022 8:09 pm**

Thanks; walking out to the garage now for a few hours of work...

Posted: **Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:29 pm**

The TX historic heat wave may have passed and my garage has gone from oven-like temps to something more reasonable for boat building. I'm finishing now with the blended filler and sanding with Skeg design on the near horizon. The plans call for a single 2"X2"X7' skeg along the aft keel-line. I see some builds that use twin-skegs offset from the keel (seems maybe easier). Are both concepts effective? Is one design better than the other? What's a good material to use in construction? Any inputs would be greatly appreciated. Thanks - Marshall

Posted: **Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:35 pm**

You only need the single skeg as designed by Jacques. Why vary from the designer? The two are also less effective than the one., believe it or not. If Jacques felt that two were better, he would have designed her that way.

Tom

Posted: **Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:14 pm**

The role of the skeg is key.

If you plan to pull up on sand, a couple three might be nicer.

But for normal purposes of preventing sideways slip, I hardly see a benefit for two further up unless an inch if draft, etc.

Really need to know the purpose..

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