Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

That is one good looking boat. Congratulations!

Man that is a nice looking boat You sort of snuck it in on us. I had no idea you were this close to finishing the build. When you have time please post more pictures and give a performance report.

PangaRon, really nice work!!! Also a nice surprise to see her in the water---seems to have been a really fast build???? Also, like the color you chose!! Jeff

Love it.

I love Pangas Good looking boat

Here are some more pics to help any Panga builders out there! I'll post a performance report soon.

Thank you for the additional photos!! Beautiful Panga!!! Jeff

That's a hottie. Nothing like some fine, sexy lines. I could learn to love a beauty like that. Even with the motor.

Nice Ron.

Tom

Beautiful boat! I'm sure it can handle Cali waves.

Man....last time I saw pics of this one I don't even think it had primer on it. Now its done and absolutely gorgeous. Nice job Ron!

YES! So stoked for you Ron! She's perfect!

I'm sure it can handle Cali waves.

Absolutely. I've had my 22 in some pretty wild conditions out here in the middle of the pacific and always felt safe and confident. The panga design was very well done by Jacques When it gets really snotty, like 30 knots plus, it's still a dry and comfy ride running into a head wind. Just gotta speed up a little. The 25' is gonna be awesome!

Nice, Ron!

Can you post more pics when you get a chance? Curious to see how much space you have between console and gunwales...

Is this the 25s or straight up 25?

Congratulations, she is a beauty!

geronimo1111 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:37 am Can you post more pics when you get a chance? Curious to see how much space you have between console and gunwales...

Is this the 25s or straight up 25?

It's the "straight up" 25 I believe. I made no changes to the PG25 plan. There is 24" between the console and the gunwales. The gunwale height feels perfect, not too low to feel unsafe and not too high for fishing etc.

geronimo1111 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:37 am Can you post more pics when you get a chance? Curious to see how much space you have between console and gunwales...

Is this the 25s or straight up 25?

It's the "straight up" 25 I believe. I made no changes to the PG25 plan. There is 24" between the console and the gunwales. The gunwale height feels perfect, not too low to feel unsafe and not too high for fishing etc.

I ran the new Panga 70 miles up and down the California coast yesterday and am absolutely pleased with how it handled. On the up hill leg we had 3 foot swells and the 90 hp ran about 18 mph average less than WOT. On the way back downhill in 4 foot, 21 mph average, surfing the swell with ease. Never once did I take any spray over the side and it never pounded, riding up an over the waves like a champ. I also like how the bow does not ride super high in the air, like some Mexican Pangas, blocking visibility. It's also very stable side to side in a beam chop while fishing. I'm a little concerned about how much water comes in the transom scuppers when standing still or backing. I will post a question to forum and see if I can find a better system for the scupper doors and update later. I'll also post some fuel efficiency numbers later. I get such positive comments from bystanders everywhere I go!

Dear Ron,

Great job on your Panga - was wondering whether you had had a chance to use it much more?

And whether you had any performance figures for it?

Tom

Thanks for the report.
I like all my Panga designs, seaworthy boats.

For the scuppers, try flapper valves or those with a ball.

Very nice boat, congratulations

If no water is going into boat while underway - why do you need scuppers? - assuming you have a bilge pump for rain water?

I finally saw some scuppers with a rubber ball that actually seals shut and works; but I have never had much luck with scuppers.

I glued some cheap foam flip flops together with contact adhesive and then shaped them on an upturned belt sander. Put a string through the middle and make a loop.

Then plug the scupper holes from the inside.

If you ever need to drain your boat on a rush they are easy to whip out with the string; or when your boat is moored. Otherwise just keep them in.

PangaRon your boat is beautiful and the performance sounds good. Go to Hamilton Marine and you will find the flapper scuppers that will solve your problem. These are the best solution on a boat and will be pushed close on water from the stern. Here is the site: https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/inet/st ... D=scuppers With a 25' boat I would use one of the larger sizes.

Do not use the ball scuppers, no one I know of has ever had any success with them.

Tom

Tom must those be mounted on a "squared up" transom? as in vertically? Otherwise what stops them hanging a bit open because of the transom angle

No you need to build a wedge the same angle as the transom so they hang and close at 90 degrees ideally. They will still work if you don't but not as well as the force of the water will force them close. See Peter's CS 25 build.

Tom

TomW1 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:08 am No you need to build a wedge the same angle as the transom so they hang and close at 90 degrees ideally. They will still work if you don't but not as well as the force of the water will force them close. See Peter's CS 25 build.

Tom

Scupper build starts here https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p199703
But as Tom mentioned you don't really need the wedge for them to work properly, it just looks nicer

I have mine mounted right to the transom and have no problems . When sitting still or moving forward it really doesn't
matter if the door swings out a 1/4 " . Wave action or backing slams it shut. The way Peter did it is beautiful and custom
but not one person who has ever seen my boat said anything about the scuppers . Your choice.

I installed better scuppers and added a stainless steel spring to each. I purchased the springs at mrspring.com and used a hacksaw and Dremel to open up the hinge pins on the scuppers. The spring keeps the door from swinging open too wide with the waves at a drift or when backing down. It has also greatly reduced the amount of water on the deck. More importantly it stops the incessant banging of the scupper door in the waves at a drift and driving everyone crazy and scaring away the fish!

Nice fix PangaRon!! m Happy holidays, Jeff

How much water do you have to have in the boat to push open the scupper doors
How lite is the spring tension

Any water on the deck slides out. The springs only have 2-3 lbs of tension.

I weighed my Panga 25 on a truck scale minus the trailer and it weighed 2340 pounds dry with the Honda 90 which weighs 359 lbs. So the dry hull weight is 1981 pounds in case any one needs the info.

PangaRon wrote: ↑Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:32 pm I read this informative Binance Review and weighed my Panga 25 on a truck scale minus the trailer and it weighed 2340 pounds dry with the Honda 90 which weighs 359 lbs. So the dry hull weight is 1981 pounds in case any one needs the info.

Such a clean looking boat, Ron. It looks stunning. Big congrats!

Have you got any more performance reports for us Ron - now that we know the exact weight would be really interesting?

TomTom wrote: ↑Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:47 am Have you got any more performance reports for us Ron - now that we know the exact weight would be really interesting?

Ron has just ordered a new SS prop that I calculated for Him which should put him in the lower 30's with his 90HP Honda motor. This is much improved over his current damaged aluminum prop. As of now he hasn't had a chance to do sea trials with it.

Tom

PangaRon wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:35 pm

Awesome build PangaRon and I'm thinking this might be my next build once I get back stateside.

Thanks NavyBuilder13! Let me know if I can help and thank you for your service!

Tom, The new prop allowed me to gain 8 mph top speed to 30 mph when it's flat calm! The fuel economy dropped slightly from 4.8 to 4.6 miles to the gallon. Thanks again for your help!

Thanks Ron. Glad to help another forum member with there prop.

Did you get your repairs fixed.

Tom

Some final thoughts for anyone considering a Panga 25 build.

* I could not have built a boat without this forum, Jacques, and the members who participate have been invaluable.
* Every boat is a compromise of some sort. Consider how you will use the boat and pick the one that works for you.
* You will save approximately 50% by building, versus buying or financing a factory boat.

As far as the specific Panga 25 design, here's are just a few hindsights:
* The Panga design is self-bailing, but do realize that when you're not in motion, you're standing in ankle deep water most of the time.
* Don't build the center console until you know how big and where you will put the gas tank. I had to install a custom built 32 gallon tank in the bow, but would have liked the 55 gallon listed on the plan. A factory 55 gallon would not fit in the standard console or bow.
* Build the center console 6" higher than the plan for driving comfort, but keep the standard height of the seat in front.
* Stay with the engine weight design recommendations.
* The smooth "ride" in the ocean is great, a lot better than most boats where I have been a passenger; however, do not omit the spray rails.
* The affordable fuel economy is amazing. Most boats in my area are at 1.5 miles a gallon, the Panga is at 4.6.
* Keep the keel 18" back from the transom for better down swell tracking.
* Don't put a seam in the coaming and gunnels boards mid-ship at the run line. Fillet and glass both of the undersides for strength.
* A 1" thick gunnel is nice for mounting rod holders etc.
* Find a watertight design for the stern lockers. Despite 1/2" weather stripping, mine take on water when in rains. Same for the bilge.
* I spent approximately $17,000, not including the motor and T-top. I took 2 years, 3 month and 3 days outside in California weather.
* Good luck and have fun!

"Many men go fishing all their lives without knowing it is not fish they are after" Henry David Thoreau

PangaRon wrote: ↑Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:33 pm * The affordable fuel economy is amazing. Most boats in my area are at 1.5 gallons a mile, the Panga is at 4.6.

Is that miles to the gallon? Just making sure I'm not seeing something backwards there.

Yes, thanks!

Nice PangaRon!!! Jeff

Fantastic - amazing fuel economy!

When you get a chance would love to see what speeds you get at different rpms!

Beautiful boat! Your "final thoughts" summary is great for potential builders too!

Do you have an open bilge? (ie. no foam)

If so, you may want to consider adding drains in order to keep a dry cockpit. Many people drain into the bilge. As an alternative, you could build collection boxes under the floor so that the water doesn't drain directly into the bilge. Or you could direct connect drains to pumps. When the water starts to collect, turn on the pump(s). Either way, there is no need to be standing in water.

I put together a YouTube video of the build if you would like to see a time lapse slide show. I can't say enough about the help of this forum and the folks at boatbuilder central. I wouldn't be enjoying my finished boat without their help! Follow me on Instagram @boatdays

https://youtu.be/TivKy5yKZ9s

PangaRon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:34 am I put together a YouTube video of the build if you would like to see a time lapse slide show. I can't say enough about the help of this forum and the folks at boatbuilder central. I wouldn't be enjoying my finished boat without their help! Follow me on Instagram @boatdays

https://youtu.be/TivKy5yKZ9s

Fantastic video and great looking boat!!

100 hours on the boat!



The catch! A 48 pound halibut, my personal best.



I built my own Yeti from a video here on the forum. I spell it Y-diy.

Nice
Halibut is perfect eating size

Nice fish!

Nice boat.

Did you get the fish shallow or deeep?

60-70 feet deep near Goleta, California.

PangaRon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:52 am 100 hours on the boat!



The catch! A 48 pound halibut, my personal best.



I built my own Yeti from a video here on the forum. I spell it Y-diy.

Nice fish!!

Where's the vid on the forum of that cooler build?

PangaRon wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:28 pm 60-70 feet deep near Goleta, California.

Thanks for sharing Ron!

Good luck fishing.

The Panga has given me 200 hours on the water! She rides great, handling all kinds of Central California seas. She rides really well up swell, but is a little challenged by a following sea. I was in 5-7 foot swells yesterday and have to really match the speed of the wave or she will slide sideways and dip in the trough. All boats have their pluses and minuses but overall she handles really well. I added a trolling plate to slow down the Honda so we can slow troll for Halibut and Salmon. Had this great catch yesterday and took home 24 pounds of King Salmon fillets, which in $28 per pound in store!

Nice fish Ron! I am in a tournament next week and a 10-12# king will be enough to win.

I can't seem to get many kings on Lake Superior.

They stopped stocking them years ago and I only caught one 7 pounder in my years of fishing it.

How did you catch them? Downriggers? Hoochies? Give me the full details!

Runnin lead core maybe?

Nice Kings! I have a hard time not putting any I catch in the smoker

Nice!!! Jeff

That is a great photo!! PangaRon, would you send me a few photos of your finished Panga. Just email them to me at: jeff@boatbuildercentral.com

I will add them to our website!!! Jeff

That is a great photo!! PangaRon, would you send me a few photos of your finished Panga. Just email them to me at: jeff@boatbuildercentral.com

I will add them to our website!!! Jeff

Very good looking boat Ron! Love the photo.

Did you ever manage to do an RPM vs Speed test on your boat? Fascinated to see how these Pangas transition from displacement to planing....

About the self bailing:
there is something wrong here but I don't know what.
I first checked my calculations and with boat at level trim, it should displace 3,300 lbs before any water begins to enter the scuppers.
Is it correct that your scale puts it at 2,400 lbs and that water still gets to or above the scuppers?
Looking at the picture, your boat is sitting low, she looks much heavier. You can see where the chine immerses: she looks like she is 1 or 2,000 lbs overweight.
That does not make her a bad boat, she can still perform well.
Let's see if we can keep that water out.
If it was only 1", we could consider raising the sole with a layer of foam but 4 or 5" is a lot more .
Is that water mostly in stern? Can you draw a little sketch so that I can calculate your displacement?

Adding this to your tendency too broach in bad weather and we could have an exceedingly heavy stern.

Tell me how that water sits like: 4: above sole at MW bulkhead with the forward edge of the flood water 20" in front of that bulkhead. Those figures will give me the trim and the displacement.

The solution will almost certainly be some special scuppers, the kind we use on some sailbaots, with a ball and a shock cord but I would like to first understand why we have that problem.

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:21 pm About the self bailing:
there is something wrong here but I don't know what.
I first checked my calculations and with boat at level trim, it should displace 3,300 lbs before any water begins to enter the scuppers.
Is it correct that your scale puts it at 2,400 lbs and that water still gets to or above the scuppers?
Looking at the picture, your boat is sitting low, she looks much heavier. You can see where the chine immerses: she looks like she is 1 or 2,000 lbs overweight.
That does not make her a bad boat, she can still perform well.
Let's see if we can keep that water out.
If it was only 1", we could consider raising the sole with a layer of foam but 4 or 5" is a lot more .
Is that water mostly in stern? Can you draw a little sketch so that I can calculate your displacement?

Adding this to your tendency too broach in bad weather and we could have an exceedingly heavy stern.

Tell me how that water sits like: 4: above sole at MW bulkhead with the forward edge of the flood water 20" in front of that bulkhead. Those figures will give me the trim and the displacement.

The solution will almost certainly be some special scuppers, the kind we use on some sailbaots, with a ball and a shock cord but I would like to first understand why we have that problem.

Things like a stainless t top add to the weight, a LOT. 400#? Ron is a fisherman and a lot of downrigging gear adds up fast. I have 3 rigging balls that are 24#. My salmon fishing box is about 10#, rods are another 20# at least or more with lead. Then catch and livewell aft add up fast, say a 25 gallon well and 65 pounds of fish and you are adding 465# to loaded weight. The gear and t top could be 3" of ppi...

The thing to measure is whether the transom, if made as spec'd, is above water the right amount.

Now, I don't want to be an arse here, cuz I really luv seeing Ron's fish pics, but I have a feelin he is adding weights from midship to the stern fast.

A way to deal with this issue would be to move some static weights forward perhaps, or to put the boat on a diet.

The bottom line is the panga was not meant for lotsa fanciness like t tops and livewells and tons of gear. So Ron's critique against his use is probably ... fair.

Ron was that an empty weight at the scales. Did you have gas or bait wells, live wells filled. Did you have any gear on boat. As another to Jaucques measure how far the scuppers set above the water line when at rest at the dock. Let him know what gear you have on board at the transom and if any tanks are filled how many gallons.

Tom

Tom, I was on an ag scale so no water in the bait tank, no persons aboard and some 10-15 pounds of gear in the stern lockers. The 32 gallon gas tank in the bow was probably half full. Stryker aluminum T-Top was installed. Honda 90 hp weighs 300 lbs I think. I weigh 185, one mate weighs about the same.

I will measure the height and width of the standing water next time I'm out.

I have ordered the Rabud - 3" Sea Scupper, which is the Ping Ball style. I will install temporarily over the openings and report back on the effectiveness.

Thanks for the help!

Jacques, I would check the PPI calculation. Do to the unique design of the Panga's hull shape I would think the normal calculation may not work for them. Looking at the DE25 it has a PPi of 600lbs while you list the Panga 25 at 510lbs only 90lbs less. I would believe it might be in the 400-450lbs range, since it has 6" less beam and the sharp bow and a pinched transom. As always correct me if I am wrong.

Regards, Tom

PangaRon wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:24 pm Tom, I was on an ag scale so no water in the bait tank, no persons aboard and some 10-15 pounds of gear in the stern lockers. The 32 gallon gas tank in the bow was probably half full. Stryker aluminum T-Top was installed. Honda 90 hp weighs 300 lbs I think. I weigh 185, one mate weighs about the same.

I will measure the height and width of the standing water next time I'm out.

I have ordered the Rabud - 3" Sea Scupper, which is the Ping Ball style. I will install temporarily over the openings and report back on the effectiveness.

Thanks for the help!

Ron the Honda specs list the 90 at 365lbs. for your future info. Jacques will do his best to figure out the problem.

Tom

I will post the hydrostatics but that is not going to help with a solution.
I can not do it now, I am travelling and don't have all the software I need with me but I have a copy here in PDF and the study plans figures are correct.
Those calculations are made in ORCA and a volume is volume, whatever way it is calculated
Weight and trim seem to be the problem here.
Besides scuppers that close, I see only one other remedy, raising the sole with a thick layer of foam, glassed. Before we discuss that, I would like to know more about the trim.

To answer Jacques question: When I stand alone at the transom, there is 2 inches of standing water tapering to 6 feet on one side. When two people stand at the transom, there is at least 4 inches tapering to 10 feet on both sides. This is with the bait well empty. The Styker T-Top weighs 98 pounds. The Honda 90 weighs 365 pounds. The 32 gallon fuel tank is in the bow.

I temporarily installed two 3 1/2 inch Rabud ping ball scupper drains to see if this would help. These have 1 1/2" inch holes. It made the situation worse because the standing water drained out much slower when we started under way.

I'm not looking forward to rebuilding the sole and drains that run though the bilge. It will also lower my freeboard. Hopefully that is not the only solution! If so, I'll probably just keep wearing the high boots!

Evan Gatehouse recommended elephant trunk drains, but that seem impractical on a planing boat.

I have seen "tennis ball drains" with a pull cord on small sailboats, and am willing to give them a try, if I can locate them and make them work? I'm a little concerned about swamping!?

Please let me know if you have any other suggestions?

I am building the pg 25s. Should be ready to flip next week .After reading about your problem i am thinking of raising my sole 1.5 inches and moving the console forward 8 inches. I really dont want a bow heavy boat ,but sure dont want standing water on the fish deck. maybe i wont permanently mount the console till i float her. Welcome to all suggestions.
Thanks
Roland

I will look for tennis ball scuppers. I used them on sailboats.

Ron, question for you do you have scuppers at the transom with flaps on them at deck level. Is water flowing back through them? And is that the problem.

Tom

I've seen elephant trunk scuppers on zodiacs around here before. They're definitely planing boats.

I'm not recommending them or anything because I've never used them. But they must work on planing boats. If I were to fit a pair, I'd put a rigid piece of plastic on the bottom with a cord run through it that tied back to the transom so I could fold them upright just by pulling up the cord. I think I saw that done on Russell Brown's PT Skiff, which wasn't quite self-bailing, but kind of a hybrid system.

Anyway just a bit of info on elephant trunk scuppers, in case they do ultimately turn out to be an option for you.

Ron-have you ever tried to add a few hundred pounds to the bow?

And where are batteries and anchors and such?

I'd say you need to move some stuff forward to see if it helps. The boat ought to be better on fuel as well.

Remember, weights in boats are moments, not masses.

A 40 pound battery on the stern moved to the front of the boat like a Panga 25 is a moment difference of about 800 ftlbs. (40x20 ft)

The water you said fills the boat (one man)has a mass of about..

1" average water tapering to 6' at about 5' wide is about 30/12 cuft of seawater. This is 160 pounds at about say 5' from the center of mass or about a 800 ft pound moment. So, moving a battery stern to bow offsets that. The console and t top moved one foot is probably 200 more.

Also, I would take the boat and trailer to a certified scale. Drop the boat in the water fully rigged and go back and weigh truck and trailer alone. Find the difference and that is the weight of the boat total. You want to make sure she is not waterlogged.

About 3-4 years ago, I. put my boat on a stern diet. I weighed all outs at 83 pounds. I weighed all ins at about 40. So, I was able to shed 43 pounds from the stern.

If you have a kicker motor, the fuel for the kicker, if different, could also be moved, for example. I went from a 3 gallon steel tank to 1 gallon fuel tank on the engine in my diet plan...

The boat ought to be dry for you alone.

You may think me a pest Ron, but the Yamaha 70 is 265 pounds and that would be about a 1000 pound moment as well. Obviously, you can't move it to the bow, but 100#@10' would be a big change.

...something to think about for repower time someday

In fairness to Jacques, the Pangas were really not designed for 350 pounds hanging back there. Even my fishing boat is affected by the four stroke weight

TomW1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:56 pm Ron, question for you do you have scuppers at the transom with flaps on them at deck level. Is water flowing back through them? And is that the problem.

Tom

I have scuppers/drains in the transom at deck level. Built per plan, through the bilge in rectangular "boxes". They are the style with rigid rubber flaps. Thanks!

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:06 pm Ron-have you ever tried to add a few hundred pounds to the bow?

And where are batteries and anchors and such?

I'd say you need to move some stuff forward to see if it helps. The boat ought to be better on fuel as well.

Remember, weights in boats are moments, not masses.

A 40 pound battery on the stern moved to the front of the boat like a Panga 25 is a moment difference of about 800 ftlbs. (40x20 ft)

The water you said fills the boat (one man)has a mass of about..

1" average water tapering to 6' at about 5' wide is about 30/12 cuft of seawater. This is 160 pounds at about say 5' from the center of mass or about a 800 ft pound moment. So, moving a battery stern to bow offsets that. The console and t top moved one foot is probably 200 more.

Also, I would take the boat and trailer to a certified scale. Drop the boat in the water fully rigged and go back and weigh truck and trailer alone. Find the difference and that is the weight of the boat total. You want to make sure she is not waterlogged.

About 3-4 years ago, I. put my boat on a stern diet. I weighed all outs at 83 pounds. I weighed all ins at about 40. So, I was able to shed 43 pounds from the stern.

If you have a kicker motor, the fuel for the kicker, if different, could also be moved, for example. I went from a 3 gallon steel tank to 1 gallon fuel tank on the engine in my diet plan...

The boat ought to be dry for you alone.

Here are the answers to your questions:

I have a small Danforth anchor is in the bow. I have 2 half size gel batteries under the helm station. I only have some tackle boxes and safety gear in the stern lockers.

The boat plan recommended a 50 gallon fuel tank under the helm station, I put in a 32 gallon in the bow. I do not have a kicker motor.

I did exactly what you described to weigh the boat and that it weighed 2,540 pounds.

It's impractical to move the console/helm and the T-Top only weighs 98 pounds and I can't see raising the sole at this point.

Even with a full tank of gas in the bow (202 pounds), the standing water is still present. I don't feel putting the boat on a diet is the answer, but thanks for your suggestions!

I don't profess any expertise here.

Only questions.

Why would you scupper below the scum line on any boat?

I thought the point of the scupper was to allow water, like rain water, to exit the hull, not only when he is on plane.

Ron-accept my apologies here, but I don't think your boat should be wet!!

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:38 am You may think me a pest Ron, but the Yamaha 70 is 265 pounds and that would be about a 1000 pound moment as well. Obviously, you can't move it to the bow, but 100#@10' would be a big change.

...something to think about for repower time someday

In fairness to Jacques, the Pangas were really not designed for 350 pounds hanging back there. Even my fishing boat is affected by the four stroke weight

The plans recommends a 70-125 hp outboard. I chose a motor in the middle of that range. The weight of 70 hp is 253 pounds, the 90 is 359, a difference of 106 pounds. At a cost of $6,000, that does not seem like a prudent solution. I built the 25 over the 22 in order to take out family and friends, 106 pounds is not even one small person, but thanks!

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:48 am I don't profess any expertise here.

Only questions.

Why would you scupper below the scum line on any boat?

I thought the point of the scupper was to allow water, like rain water, to exit the hull, not only when he is on plane.

Ron-accept my apologies here, but I don't think your boat should be wet!!

That is the "million dollar" question! I posted that picture of a dirty boat for exactly that reason. To be clear, it does drain perfectly when the boat is on plane. It's when I'm standing still: loading, drifting, landing fish etc. that the stern fills, once I'm underway again, it's dry as bone.

Easy solution is drain to the bige and redundant bilge pumps. Not ideal but quick and easy. Make's you a little uneasy for long runs offshore ;depending on pumps but not as uneasy as swamping if your motor fails

Just go and buy some 25 pound or 50 pound bags of pea gravel and put 300 pounds as far forward as practical and see if the scuppers are out of the water.

If not, phooey on those scuppers, close them in and make a pump well or two.

No way would I want all that saltwater in n out all the time. I have visions of tackle and gear getting wrecked early and lotsa corrosion on terminals and fastenings.

Raising the sole and scuppers some 3" is not really sensible anymore.

One pump can be setup as automatic and the other can be a backup if needed. It is always a good idea to source two pumps of the sand kind because oftentimes an impeller clog can be trouble and you can swap a pump on the same base in a couple minutes if setup right.

Those scuppers are simply too low.

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:45 pm Just go and buy some 25 pound or 50 pound bags of pea gravel and put 300 pounds as far forward as practical and see if the scuppers are out of the water.

If not, phooey on those scuppers, close them in and make a pump well or two.

No way would I want all that saltwater in n out all the time. I have visions of tackle and gear getting wrecked early and lotsa corrosion on terminals and fastenings.

Raising the sole and scuppers some 3" is not really sensible anymore.

One pump can be setup as automatic and the other can be a backup if needed. It is always a good idea to source two pumps of the sand kind because oftentimes an impeller clog can be trouble and you can swap a pump on the same base in a couple minutes if setup right.

Those scuppers are simply too low.

A deck drain, I like that way of thinking! I wonder if I could cut a drain into the two corners of the deck at the rear bulkhead. It would need some kind of grate to prevent a tripping hazard and so I could clean, check and service the pumps. I could then wire in 2 bilge pumps to plumb the water up and though the sides. I would like Jaques input in regards to the stability of the boat if I cut into that area. I would also need to know the proper dimensions of the drain and gpm pump size. I wouldn't want to get swamped if I take a random wave over the sides. The Panga is amazingly dry if it wasn't for the current scuppers. I could then glass over the transom drains and have dry feet! I'd love to have a drawing. Anyone have input on a deck drain design?

They make drain plugs up to 4 inch just like the 3/4-1 inch ones a lot of boats have. With a little work you can replace what you have now with them. Run with the plugs in most of the time and pull when needed. With a small sump and bilge pump to handle small amounts of water you should stay dry. I have a couple boats set up like this and it works for me.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:56 pm They make drain plugs up to 4 inch just like the 3/4-1 inch ones a lot of boats have. With a little work you can replace what you have now with them. Run with the plugs in most of the time and pull when needed. With a small sump and bilge pump to handle small amounts of water you should stay dry. I have a couple boats set up like this and it works for me.

Thanks Fuzz! Do you happen to have a source, a link or some pics?

A friend on another forum is building deck drain with grate. He is scuppering after that, but a pump would work best. Show us some picture of the cockpit and aft bulkhead.

A Panga 25 is not a boat to be out under small craft advisories. And you ought to rarely take one over. Certainly nothing two pumps can't handle. 500gpm should be fine; more so if 2

The only question is automatic pumps or manual, plug the scuppers and open them on trailer or pump only and whether the drains go under or in front of the bulkhead. Holing any bulkhead should be okay at 2" or less as long as not too near the edges.

I am sure JM will voice an opinion, but I'd say build the pumpwells each side where there is enough space. Find a pump that won't be too high and/or mounts side or else it'll have to go under the bh and in the stern lockers.

For the grate, you can fab that pretty easy. Once the well size is determined, use some high density foam for a cleat. The grate can be made from the same material. You will want to glass it and then make the grates wide enough to cut out with an oscillati g tool.

You need like a half sheet of 20# foam. A full sheet if you can buy locally. The same materialcan be used for well sides. Never rots.

I can take a picture of how I'd do the grate if you want.

Ron an easy way to do it would be to add vents upright directly to your bilge. Here are is one example of one https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/p ... tail/10372 You might need two to cover the area of your bilge. As for a pump do not go any smaller than a 1500gph, the smaller pumps just do not hold up.

Tom

https://www.go2marine.com/Turn-Tite-3-1 ... gKgwPD_BwE

I use them in 2 inch for my Sintes. One nice thing is they fit perfect inside a 2 inch pvc coupler. Just snug them down and they hold good. You can get them in 2,3 and 4 inch. At least thats what they had at our local LFS store. Keep your deck dry and if there is any chance of taking on lots of water you can pull them.

I have 2, 1" scuppers in the aft corners of my OD18 which are right at the top of the sole. Empty at the dock or at anchor the boat self bails. Fill the bait well and the water comes in. Get in, and the water comes in. I have never let the water come in until it stops to see how deep it will get, but bet it would be similar to yours (3-4"). I plug the scuppers from the inside to stop that from happening. Underway, it self bails with a huge load. I have a separate 1" drain that goes to the bilge below the motor well and a 500gpm pump with an auto switch and separate switch on the console. What do the inboard openings on your scuppers look like? I would plug them while fishing or going slow, and pull them while planing. That's what I do.
As to swamping and ultimately sinking, I 1) never take the boat where I think that might happen; and 2) believe that it will still float and eventually drain out if I ever take a huge wave into it.

I just read through all the posts from the last few days and i think something like the elephant trunks would be ideal for this situation. They are commonly used on small boats that aren't self bailing at rest, but you want to be able to evacuate water while underway. Plus you could probably build a flanged piece to accept the trunk that would bolt/screw to the transom and cover the existing scupper tubes with minimal effort to give it a try.

Phil

Cowbro wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:24 am I just read through all the posts from the last few days and i think something like the elephant trunks would be ideal for this situation. They are commonly used on small boats that aren't self bailing at rest, but you want to be able to evacuate water while underway. Plus you could probably build a flanged piece to accept the trunk that would bolt/screw to the transom and cover the existing scupper tubes with minimal effort to give it a try.

Phil

Thanks Phil, see ya on IG!

cape man wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:35 am I have 2, 1" scuppers in the aft corners of my OD18 which are right at the top of the sole. Empty at the dock or at anchor the boat self bails. Fill the bait well and the water comes in. Get in, and the water comes in. I have never let the water come in until it stops to see how deep it will get, but bet it would be similar to yours (3-4"). I plug the scuppers from the inside to stop that from happening. Underway, it self bails with a huge load. I have a separate 1" drain that goes to the bilge below the motor well and a 500gpm pump with an auto switch and separate switch on the console. What do the inboard openings on your scuppers look like? I would plug them while fishing or going slow, and pull them while planing. That's what I do.
As to swamping and ultimately sinking, I 1) never take the boat where I think that might happen; and 2) believe that it will still float and eventually drain out if I ever take a huge wave into it.

Do you have an idea on making or buying a removable watertight plug for this inboard scupper?

Make it out of a 1 - 2" wide piece of wood. Tapered on the end that goes in and it should hold if you give it a whack. It will test your wood-working skills! Put a folding ring on it to pull them out. If it doesn't work it didn't cost you much...

Anyone have any experience or comments about a "Duckbill Scupper"?

It has good reviews!



https://www.fisheriessupply.com/th-mari ... ll-scupper

Yes. They work. They leak a little bit at standstill and on plane, drain slower than the full open ones but altogether, they work.

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:35 pm Yes. They work. They leak a little bit at standstill and on plane, drain slower than the full open ones but altogether, they work.

Thanks Jacques, I will give them a try and report back.

nightcrawler wrote: ↑Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:27 pm Easy solution is drain to the bige and redundant bilge pumps. Not ideal but quick and easy. Make's you a little uneasy for long runs offshore ;depending on pumps but not as uneasy as swamping if your motor fails

Thanks Nightcrawler, If I can find a solution at the transom, that will be next! At least the bilge will stay clean during a wash down!

Did you ever here back from JM ?

I am watching but others posted good replies and I can't find anything better than the ball type scuppers.
I had some made with tennis balls on the outside. The balls were secured to the inside with a shock cord. You could drain by giving slack to the shock cord.

I was thinking more along the lines of DWL and or displacement as i will be flipping soon and am thinking of raising my sole or draining the deck to the bilge with pumps

nightcrawler wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:06 am I was thinking more along the lines of DWL and or displacement as i will be flipping soon and am thinking of raising my sole or draining the deck to the bilge with pumps

I am thinking of draining to the bilge as well. I will add a second pump and outflow and wire to my second battery. JM, what do you think?

Yes, drain in a small sump with a nice size pump. You still need closed scuppers but the sump will eliminate the wet feet.

Guys...the issue is the stern weight.

Pangas were never designed for massive 365 pound four strokes.

They were designed as an inexpensive, seaworthy option for fishermen around the world.

JM knows all about panga oroginal design. But I think the extra hundred pounds on the stern is a big problem here.

If the Cm is 11 feet from the stern, you are introducing an 1100 pound unplanned moment.

A 30 gallon tank at say 10 from the CM only offsets at 180 or 1800, but I don't know where the design tank belongs originally. Btw, the actual total moment for the 365# engine at 10' from Cm is 3650, so the tank only offsets half of the total! Not to mention the skipper and the batteries.

The reason I understand this is when I put on a Merc 50hp 4 stroke, my hole shot was terrible. My boat porpoised from the problem. A little surprised Ron isn't getting some porpoising on flat water as well.

A boat is a seesaw. The four strokes are great, but the weight is trouble.

Correct, the problem is weight and trim but right now, we try to solve the problem of water entering the scuppers.

Fallguy
I understand the concept of what you are saying. The math is beyond me. I will be hanging a 4 stroke off the stern. and will probably have a small bait well. That being said,I'm trying to keep my deck self draining as the boat will be kept at a dock. Moving the console forward,Fuel tank in the bow,batteries in the console and raising the sole are all options i am considering. Just hoping to avoid problems before they arise. I understand raising the sole will affect the stability of the boat but it may be a good tradeoff. Hopefully JM cam point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Roland

If you suspect that you will have a bad trim or excessive weight, raising the sole is a good solution. It will have a small effect on that boat but nothing dramatic.
Even without raising the sole, the boat should rain at the dock but water may reach the scuppers once the crew comes onboard.
Raising the sole is easy: add 2" to the top of the stringers and floor frames.

Raising the sole is one solution and not a bad idea, but ultimately, you want the boat's design waterline to be level.

And. That should be achievable with static weight modifications.

However, if the ppi is around 400 pounds and you hang and extra 140 pounds on the stern, and offset it with ?200 pounds of lead shot bags up front; you will be an inch lower.

Pushing up the sole 2" raises all the centers of mass 2", and this adds to making a boat a wee bit less stable. The good news is the Pangas do not carry their weights up high. For example, you won't be pushing a cabin roof and solar up 2".

I don't like scuppers below the scumline.

Take JM advice and raise the sole 2". But, also realize the boat may not sit level even without a crew. And you may need some weight or stuff forward. And I don't know if the bulwarks are going to feel low, but the sheer does need to be considered. This is all for JM to consider because it is a bigger change to add to the sheerline height, bulwarks.

Ask Ron what he thinks about being up 2" higher. Sometimes, you could also put a 6" high rail along the hullsides if the boat feels like you can fall out too easily.

Fallguy,

I respectfully disagree that I have exceeded the weight recommendations of the PG25 plan. I lessened the size and moved the fuel tank to the bow. I also moved the batteries to the center. The PG25 plan clearly recommends not to exceed a 125 hp outboard and I went with a 90 hp. I have no significant weight at the stern and I weigh 185 pounds. The only non-plan addition is a 98 pound T-Top at the center and an empty 35 gallon live well. This boat is 28 feet overall and easily has the room to fish 4 adults. I am not trying to argue and am unfamiliar with the math you’re quoting, but I’m a practical guy and this boat was built as designed and should not have standing water.

As far as raising the sole, if I had to do it over again, I would not want a shorter freeboard. This is just my personal opinion. I do some crabbing, lobstering, and sometimes fish in long period 4-5 foot swells and I would not feel safe. I have friends over 6 feet tall and they wanted me to install a toe rail. The boat is designed narrow and when occupants move side to side, the boat can quickly rock.

I plan on closing the scuppers and going with a self draining bilge with pumps. I don’t store the boat in the water so rain water is not an issue.

Thank you for your help on this minor issue. It’s still a great, fun and especially economical fishing machine that gets positive comments everywhere she goes!

I also have left the shear as the pgs as i recall that makes it around 3 inches higher
Roland

PangaRon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:46 pm Fallguy,

I respectfully disagree that I have exceeded the weight recommendations of the PG25 plan. I lessened the size and moved the fuel tank to the bow. I also moved the batteries to the center. The PG25 plan clearly recommends not to exceed a 125 hp outboard and I went with a 90 hp. I have no significant weight at the stern and I weigh 185 pounds. The only non-plan addition is a 98 pound T-Top at the center and an empty 35 gallon live well. This boat is 28 feet overall and easily has the room to fish 4 adults. I am not trying to argue and am unfamiliar with the math you’re quoting, but I’m a practical guy and this boat was built as designed and should not have standing water.

As far as raising the sole, if I had to do it over again, I would not want a shorter freeboard. This is just my personal opinion. I do some crabbing, lobstering, and sometimes fish in long period 4-5 foot swells and I would not feel safe. I have friends over 6 feet tall and they wanted me to install a toe rail. The boat is designed narrow and when occupants move side to side, the boat can quickly rock.

I plan on closing the scuppers and going with a self draining bilge with pumps. I don’t store the boat in the water so rain water is not an issue.

Thank you for your help on this minor issue. It’s still a great, fun and especially economical fishing machine that gets positive comments everywhere she goes!

Not your fault.

The Pangas have an incredible history, but they were not designed for four strokes is all.

In fact, the original panga has no sole even..made super light and economical to run. Special boats. Lots to love.

Before you give up and close the scuppers in I would try those big plugs. They are watertight when installed and if things get nasty you can pull them for water drainage.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:23 pm Before you give up and close the scuppers in I would try those big plugs. They are watertight when installed and if things get nasty you can pull them for water drainage.

Do you have source or a link?

https://www.go2marine.com/Turn-Tite-3-1 ... gKgwPD_BwE
They work for me.

If that doesn't work you could make a plug out of EVA foam blocks used as yoga blocks. Cheap and can be carved to shape. Cur them slightly oversized.

I'm going with elephant trunk style tubes (longer version of a duckbill) over my scuppers that can be lifted and tied above the water line. There is a sump in front of the scuppers so any flowback will go into that where it can be pumped out. It also means that the scuppers will be useless for draining small amounts of water and are only for emergency use.

OneWayTraffic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:45 pm If that doesn't work you could make a plug out of EVA foam blocks used as yoga blocks. Cheap and can be carved to shape. Cur them slightly oversized.

I'm going with elephant trunk style tubes (longer version of a duckbill) over my scuppers that can be lifted and tied above the water line. There is a sump in front of the scuppers so any flowback will go into that where it can be pumped out. It also means that the scuppers will be useless for draining small amounts of water and are only for emergency use.

The major reason for scuppers on trailer sailers are for rain.

For me it was the chance of a boarding sea, or if I take it over river bars. Unlikely to ever get used, but I'll sleep better with them in, so they go in.
I'll have a bung out the back and sides as well to stop water accumulating on the trailer, which again shouldn't happen if the boat is stored properly.

OneWayTraffic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:50 pm For me it was the chance of a boarding sea, or if I take it over river bars. Unlikely to ever get used, but I'll sleep better with them in, so they go in.
I'll have a bung out the back and sides as well to stop water accumulating on the trailer, which again shouldn't happen if the boat is stored properly.

For true, it would be right to open them going thru inlets or bars as long as you keep the speed.

Good morning Ron
Quick ? for you. Is your motor a 20 " shaft or 25". I am getting conflicting info. JM said in one post that the 19.5 inch to the dwl is good for a 20" shaft. that measurement gets you 25.5" to the bottom of the hull. In my limited experience that was the measurement used to gage shaft length. i am confused.
Thanks
Roland

nightcrawler wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:02 am Good morning Ron
Quick ? for you. Is your motor a 20 " shaft or 25". I am getting conflicting info. JM said in one post that the 19.5 inch to the dwl is good for a 20" shaft. that measurement gets you 25.5" to the bottom of the hull. In my limited experience that was the measurement used to gage shaft length. i am confused.
Thanks
Roland

Roland, I have the "long shaft" Honda 90, which I assume is 25". I wouldn't stress over 1/2", you will be able to adjust when mounting your motor. Good Luck, Ron

The Duckbill Drains worked! Thanks for the suggestions! The boat took on minimal water during launching and stayed almost dry the whole day. Just a slow troll and the water drained. I just needed a little slope at the the ramp to get the boat clean. It was the first time I wasn't standing in water all day! This forum is the best!

Good news! Glad they seem to be working for you.

That is awesome! I'm glad you were able to find and good cheap solution!

Great news!!! Jeff

Am glad you found a fix. Good luck fishing Ron. Sorrry if I was a pain.

Super, Ron. Great fishing from here on out, keep us informed.

Tom

Keep them clean and supple. UV will perish then in the end, though there's spray protectants that work against that.

OneWayTraffic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:15 pm Keep them clean and supple. UV will perish then in the end, though there's spray protectants that work against that.

Good recommendation, thanks!

PangaRon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:58 pm

OneWayTraffic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:15 pm Keep them clean and supple. UV will perish then in the end, though there's spray protectants that work against that.

Good recommendation, thanks!

303 is what we've used for years on our drysuit gaskets.

https://www.amazon.com/303-Protectant-P ... 56891&th=1

I have the Panga 20 which has a deck that's very near the waterline. I have the duck bill inserts on my gemlux suppers and I've never had water on the deck even with putting a couple of people on the rear of the boat.

I finally decided to get rid of the scuppers! It is so nice not to have wet feet! I made wedge plugs and glassed them in like the scuppers were never there! I was glad to see EMC 2 offers a spray can for touch up painting. I drilled 1 1/2" holes in the scupper tunnels that drain into the bilge. In addition to my existing 2000 GPM bilge pump, I added an extra 4000 GPM bilge pump with a 2 inch hose exit above the water line just in case I get swamped. I pull the drain plugs when I get back for the wash down. If you are considering a PG25 build I highly recommend doing away with the self draining scuppers! I can now take people fishing without telling them to bring knee high boots!

Have you ever come close to taking any water over the side other than spray?

Hi Ron,
Do you have any additional suggestions for finishing out a Panga?

Fuzz wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:26 am Have you ever come close to taking any water over the side other than spray?

Never Fuzz in nearly 500 hours and I've been caught in some bad swells too. I don't go out when the weather is bad and I trust the bilge pumps and flotation will be enough to get me home if it ever happens. I have never completely understood the reason for the standing water and couldn't find a viable solution, but the Panga is so much more enjoyable now.

PapaDave wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:51 am Hi Ron,
Do you have any additional suggestions for finishing out a Panga?

I think it's a great design and love the nice comments I get every time I'm at the ramp. I especially love the 4.6 miles per gallon I get with the 90 HP. The last time I was on a flat ocean I hit 31.3 mph on the downhill ride back! I like the aft storage compartments. I use one for safety supplies and cleaning products and use the other for tackle. The deck space and overall freedom to move around is also a nice feature. I usually fish with one other person, but the boat could handle 4 fishermen. I added a trolling plate to the outboard to get a 2.0-2.5 trolling speed, otherwise she idles at 4-5 mph. The weight of the 90 is 325 pounds, I would not go over that weight. She trims nicely and feels stable.

As I said above, I would not do the self bailing scuppers in the PG25. I also could not fit the 50 gallon gas tank suggested in the plan under the plan's design for a steering console. I had to put a 32 gallon custom tank under the casting deck. I'm not sure if it makes much of difference, but it might in a big following sea. I put the electrical connections and the batteries in the console, so that was a benefit. I strongly recommend glassing the underside of the gunnels and adding a foam stringer to the inside of the bow. (I don't remember if I posted pictures.) But this highly increased stability when going into a head sea or flying home. Prior to those additions, the boat shuddered and the gunnels developed cracks. I purchased a Stryker T-top at a very reasonable price, but had to stabilize it and then have it welded twice due to cracks because of movement. If you can afford a custom T-top, I would go that route. I purchased a stock live well tank if you fish live bait. The tank fit nicely at the back deck and serves as bait station and trash can/storage/fish hold when not in use. I can also fill it to add weight to the stern if needed. If you do add a bait tank, be sure and keep the pump as low as possible so it's easier to prime.

Overall I am happy with design of the PG25. It's a great looking, fun boat that I can afford to fish! Good luck with your build and message with any questions.

What a great list of improvements. Almost makes me think all the boats here could have a recommended add ons page.

Thank you for the list of improvements Ron. Did Fonda have any water on the deck when you went out in his boat?

PapaDave wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 1:07 pm Thank you for the list of improvements Ron. Did Fonda have any water on the deck when you went out in his boat?

Fonda's PG22 only a very small manageable amount. He told me it was not an issue. He fishes in sandals or bare feet in Hawaii. I have also noticed comments from other PG20 and PG22 owners that they have not experienced the same inflow of water. I surmise it's only an issue with my PG25, however; I have not heard from other PG25 owners.

Panga Ron it sounds like you are much happier with your PG25 than before you made the changes, congrats and happy fishing!!!! Tom

Panga Ron it sounds like you are much happier with your PG25 than before you made the changes, congrats and happy fishing!!!! Tom