NidaPlast Panel for Sole

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bklake
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Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Post by bklake »

cape_fisherman wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:08 pm That's a fine decision...but I have to wonder...

You said that you don't want the "adventure" of glassing the panels, but then go on to say that you'd add another layer of glass to the panels. I'm curious why you would pay that much more money just to spend even more on it? "To me" it makes more sense to spend half the money on the panel & simply glass it. But that's me. Oh...and you don't have to glass the entire 4x8 panel. Cut your pattern first, and then glass. That way you aren't glassing the wasted pieces.

Not to worry...I'm just thinking out loud.

The honeycomb is certainly the way to go. A friend of mine has used 3", glassed with two layers of 1700 each side, over a 16' unsupported span in the salon of a sportfisher. Worked fine, and helped suppress the sound of the engine room below.
To clarify, 1 layer of glass over plywood. Plans don't specify any glass over ply. I would use the NidaPlast Panels as they come.

I have not explored honeycomb laminating very much. My impressions was that you need a vacuum set-up to make parts. I will look into this further because it looks like NidaPlast H8PP, sold here, seems like it is designed to be laminated just like plywood. Nida-Core has many products. You have to pay attention to the name/model/specification for the correct procedure for laminating. I know how to work with plywood and epoxy. Never tried honeycombs. If it is just like ply, I'm in.

The sole spans about 20" between stringers on the HB16. The core thickness to span 20" is what is important here. It doesn't need to be thick enough to span 8 feet. I have a working knowledge of composite structures especially what you can and cannot do. I understand hard points, edge treatments, point loads, spans, etc. What I don't know is if the sole of the HB16 is critical to the overall hull strength. If so, is the honeycomb panel is strong enough to do the job.



Fuzz
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Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Post by Fuzz »

This is just for info for those who are thinking of using honeycomb.
Image
Two hatches for my SeaSport. One is factory built and one I made. The factory one is 1/2 inch plywood with glass and extra bracing. The other is 3/4 honeycomb with no extra bracing.
Image
The factory used matt and poly but they did a very good job as the hatch is still good after 35 years. Mine is 1700, two layers each side, and epoxy.Factory hatch is 31 by 43 inch span and weighs 14.8 kg.
Other one is is 34 by 29, span is 34 and weighs 7.2 kg.
Both hatches have held up well to 300lb guys walking on them.

Matt Gent
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Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Post by Matt Gent »

I can confirm that Nidacore or similar honeycomb is a wet noodle without glass layers on either side. The scrim is only there to absorb resin for laminating glass on it.

It is shockingly stiff, and great on stiffness/weight, with just the single 17oz as they supply it pre-skinned (both sides). I'm convinced that is the way to go for soles, and interior bulkheads, if you care at all about weight. The penalty for going thicker on the honeycomb height is very small - almost no weight added. Just think about the packaging, and how you deal with the cut edges around the perimeter. Modern aircraft use honeycomb for a reason.

For a small boat I'm sure the 3/4 honeycomb is more than sufficient. It will be more stiff than the 1/2" ply with single-sided glass. I keep a little sample around, about 4" by 14". Any normal strength person cannot visibly deflect it by hand.

Haven't used it myself but some online builders have noted that Plascore is more affordable.

pee wee
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Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Post by pee wee »

Another tidbit to consider is that a number of builders have opted to raise their sole height to provide a dryer self-bailing cockpit. You could do that by making the stringers taller, by making cleats sit higher than the stringers, or by making the sole thicker. :idea:
Hank

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Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Post by cape_fisherman »

pee wee wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:27 pm Another tidbit to consider is that a number of builders have opted to raise their sole height to provide a dryer self-bailing cockpit. You could do that by making the stringers taller, by making cleats sit higher than the stringers, or by making the sole thicker. :idea:
This is another reason I recommend 1.5"-2" for the sole. You get the extra height without having to change anything.

bklake
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Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Post by bklake »

I picked up a sheet of 3/4" honeycomb, Carbon-Core brand. I have a gallon of MAS epoxy left over from past projects. A little biax found it's way into my shopping cart when I ordered some varnish. I can pick up the 4x8 sheet with one hand.

I need to make a roof/safari rack for my golf cart. It will give me a crash course in edges, hard points and just how strong and stiff this stuff will end up. Pictures to follow, I hope. I don't have time or space to build a boat right now so this keeps me in the game a little.

Fuzz
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Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Post by Fuzz »

Biggest problem with the honeycomb is finishing the edges. You can wet out two layers of 1208 tape, let it cure and then cut into strips long ways. While still green the tape will wrap some pretty darn tight corners. Or use a strip of wood or foam to cover the edges.

bklake
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Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Post by bklake »

So, I cut the roof panel to size. My cordless circular saw worked well for this. It has a 40 tooth blade on it. Looked cleaner and less crud than the factory edge. I rounded two corners using my jig saw. Not a good tool for honeycomb. The blade jumps around in the voids. I tried to round over the edge with a router. Not going to work unless done on a router table. The guide bearing doesn't follow a straight line, it dips into each of the voids. Not sure it would make a nice edge to glass over anyway.

I'm going to make some temporary frames and glass the top first. I want to put a little curve in it, 3/4" over 44" span. One layer of biax top and bottom. I may use some of the long scraps to make stiffeners but not sure that is the correct use. I have some wood strips standing by.

cape_fisherman
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Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Post by cape_fisherman »

Friend of mine typically laminates a Divinycell strip around the edge to finish.

bklake
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Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Post by bklake »

I made a new roof for my golf cart. Non structural part suitable for experimenting. Still curing so no verdict on strength. 3/4" panel. One layer of 12oz biax each side. Old MAS epoxy I had sitting around. This was my first go with biax and I have a few things to learn. I was able to curve the panel easily so it is possible to glass in an arch it you want to. The panel is 44" wide and it is about 1" high in the middle. I could have done more curve if I made a jig to support the panel.

I did a few different things to test edge treatment. Wrapping the edge after the epoxy started to gel seemed promising but I couldn't really attend to the bottom side and made more work cleaning it up. I didn't round the edge so the fabric did not wrap well. I think, if I had a router table, I could have rounded the edge. Just a router dips into each honeycomb cavity making a jagged edge.

I tried different ways of spreading the epoxy. I poured a 9oz batch in one spot and spread it from there. Not sure if I was using too much pressure or the puddle caused it to push through the scrim but I could see drips in a few cells. Let's call it 2 out of 100 cells. I had a few spots where it soaked through to the other side. One the other side, I poured a strip of epoxy and spread it as quickly as I could. Probably needed to spread a little slower because I don't think it saturated the cloth as evenly. There is a potential to use too much epoxy by pushing it into the cells. A slightly thickened skim coat on the panel, allowed to gel, them fabric may be a good solution. I had a couple of spots on the second side that got air bubbles under them. I swear it was flat before I left it to cure. There was a tropical storm approaching and the barometric pressure was falling rapidly. Just as with wood, you have to mind the rising and falling air pressure to prevent bubbles.

So, if making flat panels for a sole, don't worry about the edges. Glass one side, flip, glass other side, install. If making something like a roof or T-top, edge treatment will be needed. Have not yet dealt with hard points for mounting. Pictures to follow.
Last edited by bklake on Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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