Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

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Christer
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Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by Christer »

BarraMan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:10 pm Christer, this has to be the most exasperating thread I have seen. You have talked about building boats from 21’ to 30+’ on the one hand, while on the other hand you talk about “economy” and saving on engine costs.

I don’t know your personal circumstances, but there are HUGE differences between the build, fit-out and operating costs of a 20’ vs a 30’ planing boat!

Given that you are looking at 25 - 30’ outboard powered boats, and the cost of petrol/fuel in Europe, I assume you have deep pockets! :doh:
Well, I'm having a hard time deciding, haven't I? :)

Also, being so focused on the cats doesn't help matters, either...

With "economy", I don't necessarily mean that the engine should run only on petrol fumes, but obviously I don't want to spend $200 every time I go out, either. There are also interesting things happening with diesel outboards these days, and by the time I decide on a plan and get it built, the diesel outboards are hopefully available on the market. I don't know if it's a Norwegian thing or not, but we have "red diesel" available, which is tax and duty free. I think it's mainly for agricultural use, but I know several people using the red diesel in their boats with no issue. It's plain old diesel with red colouring added. No idea about the legality of it, though.

In any case, one of my main problems with picking a design, is that I love boating. I've been driving boats since I was 7 years old and have practically grown up in boats. The dragon (my fiancee) is not really a boat person, although she's grown to not dislike it so much over the years. We also have friends who like to go fishing, but have little to no experience being in a boat or out on the water at all, and they really don't like the rocking back and forth and get quite nervous. Hence, I want to, need to, have a boat that's stable, has high freeboard, doesn't jump around at speed and doesn't rock too much at rest. Thus, my slight fixation on the catamarans.

Given that most of the people we take out are landlubbers, they expect some comfort, like padded seats, not getting soaked.. things like that. Thus, the boat must meet these criteria. Ladies refuse to substitute buckets for toilets, so one must be on board. Granted, we're usually never too far from shore or a WC, so it's not a big problem as such, it just makes everything so much easier when 4 people don't have to pull in their lines because someone needs to pee.

With regards to speed - I love going fast just because I can, but with lots of people on the boat, we're not going fast, because we're out having a relaxing day on the water and/or beach somewhere. 15-ish knots on plane would be a good speed for that, but I'd like the possibility to go a lot faster if need be. So I want good range (large-ish tanks) and decent economy (see above).

There must also be a way to cover the boat somewhat to get out of the weather when it inevitably turns bad. I've compromised with myself and gone from a fully enclosed pilothouse to a dual console with a soft top, button-up or otherwise. I don't necessesarily need it heated as we don't use the boat when it's terribly cold, but if there's room for a small heater it's all the better.

Deep pockets? Not so much, but I'm thinking that price and cost doesn't really matter that much if I get what I want. I'll try and do it as cheaply as possible, but I'll pay to get what I want. In line with that thinking, I'll pay what it costs to keep it running, within reason.

That's another reason I'm looking at designs like the VT650 - it gives me everything I want and from the motorization outlines of 2x50HP to 2x90HP, it's reasonably cheap to run. My Suzuki DF50 uses very little fuel, so a VT650 with 2x75HP 'zuki 4-bangers should deliver both enough speed and decent fuel economy. Pretty much the only thing bothering me with the VT650 is that it needs a few more feet of length and a foot or so of width, and the targa arch needs to come aft a little but still not block fishability from the rear deck. That said, I don't think I would have any problems living with it as designed.

Oh yeah, another thing - the plans for it are AU$3250.

I also feel bad for discussing other designer's designs on here, I feel like such a spoilt brat and that I'm just critizing Jacques' designs. I don't mean to be a jerk and there are many very nice designs in the Bateau portfolio that likely would be perfect for my program, but either they can't be changed like I want them to (CT22), or they require too much power to move (CS/CX25), or there just is something that's not quite right. That goes for all the other designer's plans I've looked at as well!

In any case, I'm sorry if I come across as stubborn and condescending. I don't mean to. Sorry.


8ft dinghy built in 1992, BBV sufferer ever since.

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Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

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cracked_ribs wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:24 pm
Christer wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:05 pm
Even after bothering so many people, it seems likely that I'll never get to build anything.
Well, why not start with that boat for your daughter, and scratch the itch without having to make all these decisions?

I had planned a large build myself, but then the company I do most of my work for changed their minds about where they needed me, and instead of going back to a space I could build in, I had to stay in the middle of a city where a house with a yard is two million dollars and a garage is another million, so I'm in an apartment.

I couldn't start the build I had planned, so I built a new dinghy because I could fit it in my apartment.

I have a book that is nearing completion, but it's hard to get paid real money to write a whole book. But I wanted to keep writing, so I wrote articles in my field of expertise and I have tens or hundreds of thousands of words in print because I worked small when I couldn't work big and it added up.

If you want to build, you build. You don't start with your magnum opus. You just start.
Yeah, I'll try and start that sometime this winter. That'll give some relief for the itching (and introduce another kind of itch...). Then I'll get the boat back from the outboard dealership at some point as well. That boat also needs some work done.
8ft dinghy built in 1992, BBV sufferer ever since.

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Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by BarraMan »

“25+ ft”, “speed” and “dont want to spend $200 everytime I go out” - doesnt compute for me!

For someone who has been with boats their whole life I am surprised you dont have a more realistic view of what you want in a boat.

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Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

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BarraMan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:15 pm “25+ ft”, “speed” and “dont want to spend $200 everytime I go out” - doesnt compute for me!

For someone who has been with boats their whole life I am surprised you dont have a more realistic view of what you want in a boat.
I've only ever had small boats...
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Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by cracked_ribs »

Christer wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:57 pm
I've only ever had small boats...
Well, keep doing that until your wallet is unbearably heavy, then go bigger until it feels light again.

I can't remember the last time I took my heavy boat out and only spent $200 on fuel. And it is much smaller than your maximum size (although it is normal for me to run it fairly long distances). But I can easily burn $300/day in fuel. Very easily. You start doing that a couple of times a month and all of a sudden you're spending all winter paying off your summer.

I actually realized just the other day that my annual fuel costs are enough that if I switch to a C17 for my inshore fishing etc, the additional boat, motor and trailer would pay for itself within about six years. If I got rid of the glass tank (which I can't until my employers change their minds again) I could literally build a new C17 sized boat every four years or so, and give the old one away complete with motor and trailer, and it would cost about what I spend on fuel right now.

Don't underestimate the cost of making 5000 pounds skip on the water like a flat rock.

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Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by cracked_ribs »

All the above is really just to say: build the small boat, enjoy the process, take your time and perfect the details, then think about whether you'd be even happier with a few more days on the water, but a $5,000 annual pay cut (after taxes, of course).

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Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by BarraMan »

The Prowler VT650 is certainly an interesting boat, but I have to say:

1) Its a good thing that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, because for me, that is one ugly boat.
2) It looks like quite a complex build.
3) they clearly have no taste when it comes to boat colour schemes!
4) Its interesting that they talk 50 - 90 hp motors - but put 115s on the demo boat! I think that boat with 2 x 50 hp motors would be a "dog". Its a BIG boat to only have 100 ponies to play with!
5) They may have been around for a while with sailing and large power cats - but although an Australian company, I have never heard of them or the VT650.
Last edited by BarraMan on Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by fallguy1000 »

cracked_ribs wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:29 pm
Christer wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:57 pm
I've only ever had small boats...
Well, keep doing that until your wallet is unbearably heavy, then go bigger until it feels light again.

I can't remember the last time I took my heavy boat out and only spent $200 on fuel. And it is much smaller than your maximum size (although it is normal for me to run it fairly long distances). But I can easily burn $300/day in fuel. Very easily. You start doing that a couple of times a month and all of a sudden you're spending all winter paying off your summer.

I actually realized just the other day that my annual fuel costs are enough that if I switch to a C17 for my inshore fishing etc, the additional boat, motor and trailer would pay for itself within about six years. If I got rid of the glass tank (which I can't until my employers change their minds again) I could literally build a new C17 sized boat every four years or so, and give the old one away complete with motor and trailer, and it would cost about what I spend on fuel right now.

Don't underestimate the cost of making 5000 pounds skip on the water like a flat rock.
You burn $300 at $4 a gallon...or 75 gallons.
75 gallons at $6 is $450
Let's say you get 75 miles.

10 mph cruise 5mpg Skoota 24
max speed 25mph

At cruise, the Skoota uses 15 gallons or at $6; 90$ bs 450$

Yeah, that is pretty close to real economics.

Imagine saving $360 a weekend for gas.

Forget the Skoota. Some of JM designs will do better than 1mpg I'll bet.
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

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Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by cracked_ribs »

I have considered the Sk28, in fact - it's not set up to fish and trailering it is ridiculous but it's actually so much more efficient that if I had more free time I could almost break even running it the whole length of Georgia Strait, around Vancouver Island, up the strait of Juan de Fuca and out to the tuna as opposed to trailering a production boat to the west coast of the island and running just fifty or sixty miles out.

But I just don't have the time. I don't think I could handle Skoota pace.

Gas for me is indeed more like $6/gallon and I have to do 80-100 mile runs pretty regularly but it's true, if I could switch to a P21 with a 115, say...it would pay for itself.

On the other hand I will say that being able to continue at 20kt in steep, rough water is worth something when you have a lot of miles between you and shore. The deep V/pig iron combo slugs through a lot of gnarly water at speed. Although the fuel consumption is roughly equivalent to the amount of water on the windshield, as far as I can tell.

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Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by fallguy1000 »

cracked_ribs wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:26 pm I have considered the Sk28, in fact - it's not set up to fish and trailering it is ridiculous but it's actually so much more efficient that if I had more free time I could almost break even running it the whole length of Georgia Strait, around Vancouver Island, up the strait of Juan de Fuca and out to the tuna as opposed to trailering a production boat to the west coast of the island and running just fifty or sixty miles out.

But I just don't have the time. I don't think I could handle Skoota pace.

Gas for me is indeed more like $6/gallon and I have to do 80-100 mile runs pretty regularly but it's true, if I could switch to a P21 with a 115, say...it would pay for itself.

On the other hand I will say that being able to continue at 20kt in steep, rough water is worth something when you have a lot of miles between you and shore. The deep V/pig iron combo slugs through a lot of gnarly water at speed. Although the fuel consumption is roughly equivalent to the amount of water on the windshield, as far as I can tell.
The Skoota can autopilot and you can radar alarm, flir alarm, yada yada.

I am building the 32 to fish. And cruise. And I am quite happy at 25mph if I need it. The other thing is no way do the displacement craft need to drop to 5 mph in weather.

The obvious downside is you can't win the race around V.I. But I don't want to...
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

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