And the planning begins!

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narfi
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by narfi »

Billharrison wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:17 pm Certainly my goal is to be around 100k completed for the boat.
I think you could do that for the bare structure of a lightweight 38-40' catamaran if you are very frugal, but you will have that much again into the systems on top of that.
I just don't think 100k for a completed project that size is realistic and will just set you up for frustration or failure.

Two glimpses at costs,

$75k raw materials in 1995
https://timwestonboats.com/cost-to-build-a-boat/

$200k today,
http://www.mjsailing.com/cos/oram-45r-e ... uild-cost/

Things will always cost more than you expect and ask any builder on this site, no one ever things about, plans for, or remembers how much they spent every day or week for years on end for the random consumables needed at each stage of the game.



fallguy1000
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by fallguy1000 »

Billharrison wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:17 pm All great info it's what I came for. Certainly my goal is to be around 100k completed for the boat. I was of course hoping to build twice the boat I could buy for that. I have considered fixing a damaged boat but as someone mentioned it's definitely got resale issues and probably insurance issues.

I also agree with the last post, a solar boat just isn't there yet. Hence my interest in the parasail. And the backup of enough wattage via diesel to run the motors in a rough situation. My current EV is a bmw i3 rex and is basically that exact principal in a car. Enough battery to go 80 miles, and a big enough generator to run forever on gas.

I intend to scavent running trian from automotive sources being that's my real forte. Also as mentioned using not necessarily marine stuff for all items just where it absolutely coun
It's a lot to learn. As mentioned earlier but that's my point in this.

Also probably alot to be said for buying a boat and refitting but I'd want at least a 50 monohull to be comfortable it looks like a 40 cat would be similar with better liveability.

I plan on living aboard about a year in the carribean to learn the boat inside out before departing. And obviously I have alot to learn about ports travelling sailing tons lol.

I welcome all advice. If building is dumb someone smack me. The dream is real. The method is still undetermined.

Is the 2-3000 per foot outfitted or bare hull?
Bill, my Skoota 32 powercat costs rundown off the cuff.

Epoxy 30k
Core 15k
Glass 10k
Consumables 5k
Engines 20k
Labor 30k (you cannot wet bag or sheath these big buggers without some help). My 30k is 7500 a year only
Paint and fairing 5k
Metalwork and metals 10k. I missed this one.
Heating systems/galley/toilet 15k
Electronics 10k ap/mfd
Steering systems 5k
Miscellaneous 15% of above. I bought a build tent cost 4k, for example 20k

So, I am around $170,000. Wife hasn't left me, yet.

$5,300 per foot fitout for power. Sails cost more.
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

Billharrison
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by Billharrison »

Thanks for the very detailed breakdown. Definitely some sobering information. Best thing I have going for me so far is a lack of wife 🤣🤣
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:35 pm
Billharrison wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:17 pm All great info it's what I came for. Certainly my goal is to be around 100k completed for the boat. I was of course hoping to build twice the boat I could buy for that. I have considered fixing a damaged boat but as someone mentioned it's definitely got resale issues and probably insurance issues.

I also agree with the last post, a solar boat just isn't there yet. Hence my interest in the parasail. And the backup of enough wattage via diesel to run the motors in a rough situation. My current EV is a bmw i3 rex and is basically that exact principal in a car. Enough battery to go 80 miles, and a big enough generator to run forever on gas.

I intend to scavent running trian from automotive sources being that's my real forte. Also as mentioned using not necessarily marine stuff for all items just where it absolutely coun
It's a lot to learn. As mentioned earlier but that's my point in this.

Also probably alot to be said for buying a boat and refitting but I'd want at least a 50 monohull to be comfortable it looks like a 40 cat would be similar with better liveability.

I plan on living aboard about a year in the carribean to learn the boat inside out before departing. And obviously I have alot to learn about ports travelling sailing tons lol.

I welcome all advice. If building is dumb someone smack me. The dream is real. The method is still undetermined.

Is the 2-3000 per foot outfitted or bare hull?
Bill, my Skoota 32 powercat costs rundown off the cuff.

Epoxy 30k
Core 15k
Glass 10k
Consumables 5k
Engines 20k
Labor 30k (you cannot wet bag or sheath these big buggers without some help). My 30k is 7500 a year only
Paint and fairing 5k
Metalwork and metals 10k. I missed this one.
Heating systems/galley/toilet 15k
Electronics 10k ap/mfd
Steering systems 5k
Miscellaneous 15% of above. I bought a build tent cost 4k, for example 20k

So, I am around $170,000. Wife hasn't left me, yet.

$5,300 per foot fitout for power. Sails cost more.

VT_Jeff
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by VT_Jeff »

Bill,

Bit of a language barrier but you'll get the picture of how this guy did it, very cool imo. Strip built his boat on frames, I cant believe it cost over 100k but I dont know nuthin, ask anyone. :D


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_ZN0gX0AgE
There are only two seasons in Vermont: boating season, and boat-building season.

Matt Gent
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by Matt Gent »

The value proposition is far better to buy a used boat close to what you want, use it, and sell when done. A home build boat will have negligible value when you can no longer use it.

I’m in a similar situation, and think the choice to design and build what I want will cost on the order of $150k more and take 2-4yrs of the most valuable retirement time, vs buying used.

fallguy1000
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by fallguy1000 »

One of the reasons I went with foam core is a hope to retain the costs in the boat's resell. We are probably more realistically hoping for half.
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

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Evan_Gatehouse
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by Evan_Gatehouse »

In 2005 I bought a 40' catamaran. It had no bridgedeck cabin, but it had a mast and some rigging equipment. Sort of a fleshed in interior, but no stove, a few lights etc. Basically a 40' daysailor.

In 4-1/2 years of part time work (~1.5-2 days/week) I added a bridgedeck cabin, built a new galley, installed a diesel, new genoa, radar, SSB radio, dinghy, watermaker, windlass, anchors, more sails, etc etc. Everything required for bluewater sailing. Sailed it around the world from 2009 to 2017.

It cost me 65K for the bare boat and 70K for the building/outfittting/ etc. etc. = 135K Canadian. Or in USD, very close to 100K. I kept a very detailed spreadsheet of EVERY purchase for the boat. Down to nuts and bolts and sandpaper (god I spent a lot on sandpaper). Happy to send it to you if you want.

I would not have expected to get a used catamaran of comparable outfit for less than 175K USD or more at the time.

I am also very very good at buying on ebay, craigslist and had a wholesale account with a large marine distributor. I did not pay retail for very much (mostly fasteners, paint and sandpaper).

So... to be realistic, you need a study plan from a designer that has a materials list.

To that add all the equipment needed. You can use a big marine retailer like Defender and use retail prices for now, discounting say 75% for "good deals" that you might find.

To give you some very rough numbers on big ticket items

Mast/shrouds/boom - 20K
Main / genoa / spinnaker - 10-12K
Winches, running rigging, blocks, etc. - 5K
1 x 30 HP marine diesel engine - 15K installed by you with usual auxiliaries
watermaker - 2-5K
dinghy outboard - 1-3K
inflatable dinghy - 1-3K
stitch and glue GV10 dinghy :) - 1K
electrical system, batteries, lights, wiring, breaker panel, etc etc 3K
antifouling paint, primer 1K
anchor, windlass, chain, rope 3K

I do not think prices of boats should be the foot. Boats grow in 3 dimensions (width, depth,length) as you increase the length. Prices by the lb is a smarter measure.

Are you alone or do you have a family? A 40' cat is quite suitable for a family of 4. We had friends with 3 girls on a Lagoon 38. If you're single, a smaller cat say 35' is far more economical.

Do you have any experience sailing? Have you built a smaller boat? Or a house/cabin etc? A 40' catamaran is around 8000 to 10,000 man hours of work, or about 4-5 years of FULL TIME WORK. Depending on fit and finish levels.
designer: FB11/GV10,11,13/ HMD18/
SK17,MM21/MT24

Billharrison
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by Billharrison »

It does look to be the case. Unfortunately that puts me in a monohull as cats jump significantly in price. I have found a few used / damaged cats in the right price range. And time equity definitely has some value as a business owner I can at times (not 2020) make enough per hour to make paying someone else start to make sense.

Maybe making a list of needs and finding the best method to meet those needs is best.

Soooo:

Safety. I need a boat that won't leave me stranded in the middle of the atlantic or off the coast of antarctica. I know things can happen to any boat but soundness is essential.

Cost. I need something affordable but big enough to live on full-time for 10+ years. I know people do this on 23 footers but not this guy.

Speed:. Way down on the list. The actual passage time I'm thinking will be very low compared to the rest of the time. Only time I could see it becoming so important is running from weather or pirates.

Size. One main reason I was cat leaning they offer a lot of real estate per length. I've seen sub 40 cats that look liveable to me but most 30-40 monohulls look cramped. I definitely will have family visiting so enough room for visitors or possible extra hands is vital. But still needs to be single handable.

I'd say those are basics to start. I've mostly seen 45+ monos that start to look liveable. So any suggestions of specifics existing boats that make sense to shoot for and refit as opposed to building?

Matt Gent wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:59 pm The value proposition is far better to buy a used boat close to what you want, use it, and sell when done. A home build boat will have negligible value when you can no longer use it.

I’m in a similar situation, and think the choice to design and build what I want will cost on the order of $150k more and take 2-4yrs of the most valuable retirement time, vs buying used.

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Netpackrat
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by Netpackrat »

If you have the ability to fabricate in steel, and you are willing to use a more conventional rig and propulsion, you might be able to come closer to your budget by building a steel monohull.

silentneko
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by silentneko »

I think a monohull is way more viable to handle with less hands. The width of a large cat makes it near impossible to dock single handed as you are to far away from the hull side for good visibility, making a dock hand and spotter necessary. Really it's the same thing with a large mono, I'd say anything over maybe 33ft center console can be a handful solo.

Not being smart here, but have you operated a larger boat much?

I'm bored and have time to type this morning. So have you actually set foot in a bigger boat, or have you just been going off pictures on the internet? I ask because after being inside several of each I would say they are very different creatures.
The cat hulls seem bigger in a sense because everything is on one level, but with the exception of a small sleeping area, head, or storage, the hulls themselves don't have much.
A larger monohull, while not as open concept, I think technically has more usable space. It's just on different levels. You might get several full sized staterooms instead of sleeping nooks or converted areas.
I guess to me it's like looking at houses. You can get a large multi-bedroom older home (mono), or an open concept smaller home (cat).
If you're sailing solo most of the time then the cat might fit better. If you want guests to stay for days and have their own spaces then a mono might fit well. If you haven't been in many I would encourage going to as many regional boat shows as you can to check them out.
Built: 15ft Skiff, 16ft Skiff, Modified Cheap Canoe.....FS17 coming soon!

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