Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

I'm glad to see the "new boat design" efficient sharpie. The time of cheap fuel, and deep V 26 foot boats with twin 350's is coming to a close for most of us. Although the kings of efficiency will continue to be the full displacement boats, the speed can be frustrating. To me, the perfect boat is a seaworthy, trailerable, semi-displacement/semi-planing powerboat. WOT speed is not important to me. Its beating up an engine,and wasting fuel.
A decent cruising speed? Maybe 12-14 knots would be nice. An inboard can be still trailerable with the right trailer, so thats not out of the question.
Again, I like the new design ( 26' sharpie), as I believe these are the boats that hold much promise for the future.

Jacques seems to be fond of the semi-planers.

I agree, I think the cutting edge nowadays is going to be low horse, moderate speeds. People were flocking to ride in our boat over the weekend, esp those who have their own boats. I go out fishing with a friend reguarly who has a 225hp suzuki ob on his 21' deep v, but when the opportunity presents itself, he is in my boat asap.

Phil, flip through some of the old Atkin stuff. If there is something that a group of us like in that semi-planing speed range, we might be able to talk JM into bringing from the past to the present construction wise.

Sergeant Faunce perhaps?

E

Correct, I like moderate speed in power boats.
This may be strange coming from somebody who worked for Cigarette and raced sailboats but seaworthiness and extreme speed do not often go together.
I am more the cruising type. I like to keep going whatever the weather is and moderate speed boats do that well.
There is a clear trend towards efficient semi-planing boats. For the first time, there will be seminar about those hulls at the next IBEX and guess who is going?
Those hulls are difficult to design but a lot was done last century and we can learn from those boats. I plan to produce a number of plans with that program.

jacquesmm wrote: Those hulls are difficult to design but a lot was done last century and we can learn from those boats. I plan to produce a number of plans with that program.

Do you think you'll get the TW34 into that category? I was looking at a few trawlers (on the internet) today and there's a lot in the 30 to 34' range that would fit in that category, Island Gypsy, Camano, Marine Trader yadda yadda yadda. 15 kts in a 34' trawler would be ultra nice!

Phil, good luck on the hurricane bearing down on you. I have family (fitzgerald) in Kona and I heard that the winds are already picking up.

Sorry about hijacking the thread

For example:

Russel R, 20 Hp, 15mph:






XLNC, 13.5mph on 6hp:



Easy Goer, 12 mph on 8 hp:



Slip By, 15 hp, 15 mph:



Of course, the Sergeant, 15hp, 15mph:



Ghost, at 28', 40hp, 16mph:



You get the idea. There are many, many designs out there from the past, that can be made contemporary again, making a fast, efficient build out of a fast, efficient boat. Moderate speeds and all-conditions abilities (in some).

E

It seems to me on this board people prefer powerboats instead of sailboats, since powerboats is what most posts are about.

Is it because it is a US based board where powerboats are more dominant in the market or?

I kind of like sailboats or displacement boats. Dunno...

The US is a big country, which has a pretty minimal amount of its area on a coast. On top of that, some coastal areas are not conducive to sailing. Most of us are inland, with gusty and moody winds. Many are on large bodies of water which need to be traversed in less than a day. A strong majority are anglers, who need to get from spot to spot a little sooner than later.

Its not like The Netherlands or say France where the country has a good percentage of the populous with ready access to the seas.

E

I appreciate the positive responses to the concept of moderate speed, efficient boat designs. Atkins' designs are impressive. Interestingly, if I just wanted to go out and have open dayboat fun, the FS 17 looks good. But , personally, if I can just have one boat (reality), a big, trailerable, efficient cruiser makes a lot more sense. A this time, I live on the windward (eastern) coast of the Big Island, and a 10:00 Tuesday evening, we have had no wind from hurricane. Maybe something later, we'll see.

Spokaloo wrote:The US is a big country, which has a pretty minimal amount of its area on a coast. On top of that, some coastal areas are not conducive to sailing. Most of us are inland, with gusty and moody winds. Many are on large bodies of water which need to be traversed in less than a day. A strong majority are anglers, who need to get from spot to spot a little sooner than later.

Its not like The Netherlands or say France where the country has a good percentage of the populous with ready access to the seas.

E

Last time I checked US map, it has a large area on the west from Canada to Mexico. It has Hawaii. It has Gulf of Mexico area, Florida, Keys, Puerto Rico as a territory, and then from Florida all the way up to Canada again. Oh, and I forgot Alaska area. I can say it has much more sea area than European country on its own. For Great Lakes it is also a very large body of water. Considering population is highly concentrated on the coasts in US (except few places like Chichago, Atlanta to name the few) I think lots of people have realtivly easy access to the water. People in Europe do not necessarily live just next to the sea but have to travel as well.

For anglers and other fishing things - sure, powerboat is a much better thing. But for an enthusiast for sea, sailboat should have more charachter and not high horsepower, high speed, even AC inside the boat, satelitte and other stuff.

Could it be US love for V-8 engines and high displacements (powerboats) and European predominantly smaller cars with smaller displacement engines (sailboats)? Also in Europe people tend to eat more at home, still cooking but in US takeout, eating out or buying frozen food is very common nowadays. No time to slow down and smell the roses I reckon.

P.S This is NOT USA bashing - I consider US my second home and I love it. It is just a question why powerboats are dominant in US and not sailboats? Also, I wouldn't mind more sailboats and/or more future sailboat designs on this site....and everyone is talking about power all the time :(:(

the power designs get built in a much larger percentage than the sail boats, per equal number of plans sold. That is a fact. So its no wonder the power builder make more posts and they also get more attention.

Jacques is a sailor first, if sailors would build as much as they dream - there might not ever be another power boat designed here

BTW we send many more power boats to EU than we do sailboats, so its not a phenominin limited to just US plans

We would love to see more sail boats built Lets put it this way, what would anyone suggest we do to encourage more sail boats to be built?

Don't forget the Chesapeake Bay, which by itself has over 4,000 miles of coastline (lots of crinkly bits, like Norway).

Did anyone else notice how times have changed? In that picture of the XLNC, the girl is sitting on the front deck, dressed in essentially street clothes with no PFD. What do you suppose will happen to her when that boat hits a container cargo ship wake?

Laszlo

Even me. I like speed, and enjoy the times when I can go a bit fast. But so often water conditions, comfort, visibility, traffic and now speed limits (25 in the river channel downtown area) all conspire to keep me at that nice steady bike racer speed of 15 to 25 mph. I feel like the top 45 or 50 horses aren't needed and never get used. With fuel prices everyone is feeling a power boating pinch except maybe the really rich.

I like the B&W photo above of the woman driver with the little boy on the throttle? And sister up on the bow with no rail and no PFD. Ahhh the good ole days.

That sergant hull perhaps upsized would be an awesome St. Johns River/ICW picnic cruiser.

Jim, Sergeant Faunce is 25' long! Shes a big boat, but a beam of 4' 5" makes her look smaller than she is.

Ask guys from Iowa if they want to sail. Montana. Oklahoma. Ohio. New Mexico. As to the US, keep in mind the bulk of people don't build, they buy. Regionally in my area, there are quite a few sailboats, and every single one of them spends serious amounts of time on the auxiliary power motor. Even out in the Sound and the Gulf Islands, the winds are not that consistent. Sailing is a luxury when good, smooth, persistent wind comes through, but so many days are windless and foggy, powerboats tend to rule.

I think the commercial fisheries might help that as well. People have watched the powerboats go in and out every day, regardless of weather, and want that ability (though it will typically go unused) for themselves.

Finally.....



Jacques, you know some of us are still waiting.......

E

Well, there are fishermen, where time travelling = time lost fishing.

There are pleasure powerboaters :Skiers, tubers, wakeboarders, etc.

There are those that like racing, or running at high speed..

Then you have your picnic boat and sailing crowd, where getting there is most of the fun....

Then there are those like me that built a small boat, but use it on big water sometimes, and need to be able to run like mad for cover if the conditions go nasty. I don't always use the 40 hp on my OB15, but I'm glad to have it when a front or thunderstorm shows up unexpectedly...

If I had room for a larger, more seaworthy boat, then speed wouldn't be so much of an issue, because I'm much more of a fisherman than a skier.

Whoever that is up top, you're right too. There's always been a certain "class" thing applied to sailing in the US- outside of the places where people needed to learn it to make a living. It's seen largely as a collegiate sport, a sport for the extremely wealthy, and we're a blue-collar nation. I've heard charter fishermen absolutely crap all over sailors from exactly that perspective.

There are organizations and clubs all over the country trying to replace that misconception with a more moderate view, but it takes time, especially with something where the participant must learn a whole new vernacular. It's not easy to break through that much barrier. Now you're talking about self-education. And you're talking about something with a big learning curve.

And all the skiers, tubers, wakeboarders, who have to constantly go, go, go, don't get the concept of peace and quiet. They just don't get it, or don't value it as others do.

Another reason is our busy lifestyles, sailing takes more time. It's like cooking at home v. ordering takeout. Who has time to cook for his/her family anymore? You have to make a conscious effort to arrange your life for down time in this country, or you're lost in a rat race. Trailering is more difficult, set up is difficult, take down is difficult. We're stacked up three at a time waiting to launch powerboats around here sometimes, and tempers flare over that- it's what, five or ten minutes to launch a power boat. We have fights constantly breaking out on golf courses because we have NO patience in this country. And golf is surely a sport where liesure ought to be encouraged.

We don't even take the time to discuss stuff like this because we're mostly writing between work duties or whetever else we have going on.

And that fisherman concept is totally foreign to me too. Time spent travelling is time lost fishing. Huh?! I understand how someone can get to that point if they make money off of it, but anyone else who thinks about it that way is heading for a heart attack. What's the point in doing anything that way? That's like like telling your wife, I'm only interested in the climax, so let's skip the rest and get moving!

I will also add that many in the U.S. get a relatively small amount of vacation compared to Europeans. I know I had only 2 weeks for quite a few years, and I have finally worked my way up to 4 weeks after 15 years now. Also, there is no way I could take more than 2 weeks at a time, as I would pay severly to get caught up when getting back to work.

I am nowhere near big water, except for Lake Michigan, which is 1 day away. So, if I build/buy a sail boat, I will only be able to go on a ~10 day trip on Lake Michigan once a year, or even less if I travel to the coasts.

On the other hand, I live 3 blocks away from the river and can get a slip for my boat dirt cheap during the summer. I can go down there every night and tool around if I want. I can also trailer the boat every weekend over to the Mississippi river and cruise if I want.

I really enjoyed sailing the few times I have gone, but being an American midwesterner, I just couldn't justify a larger sailboat because of little opportunity for use.

Greg

I would also support moderate speed/moderate power designs, especially larger ones that would allow for extended cruising for a family of four. If I ever build another boat, it will be something of this nature, that is seaworthy enough to go down to the caribbean and cruise. I would prefer to build in steel next time, just for the durability aspect. I have seen some nice box keel designs out there that fit the bill, although they would take hundreds and hundreds of hours to build.

I would also consider building a larger plywood crusing boat, as the performance and draft would be much better than steel.

Becuase I work slow, I will likely buy next time, or maybe buy a bare hull. The problem is that there are approximately zero modern designs out there that are similar to those being discussed in this thread.

Greg

Very well written Madrus. The aggressive workaholic American lifestyle is a big factor. I don't see any slowing down on the highways despite fuel prices that we would nave not believed just a few years ago. One more factor is that many baby boomers have moved from sailboats to powerboats. The wealthy ones got trawlers. For instance, sales of Grand Banks trawlers skyrocked for quite a few years. I think its all slowing down now. Trawlers to rocking chairs while watching boating DVD's.

Thanks konaphil, just some observations.

I agree with others including Spokaloo and Greg, I've been drawn to the idea of moderate speed too. It's something that's much more realistic for my family's style of living. I don't want to go fast, but it would be nice to be able to pull a tube for the kids, even slowly. I also know myself, and my region, and I don't want to get stuck in a big storm with a boat that only goes 8mph. I'd like to be able to make a smart choice early, but have the extra margin of safety that moderate speeds would allow me to make a run for shelter. So I look at the TW28 and say, beautiful, but not experienced enough to feel comfortable with it. I look at Nina and say, yes, that's what I need, cheap to run, safe to operate in a variety of conditions, fast enough for the kids and comfy enough me and her.

Sailboats are something I've just started falling in love with, so I don't know enough to tell you how to encourage more builders.

When I say time spent traveling is time lost fishing, I'm talking about where I fish, where you have to travel many miles from your launch point to reach the area you want to fish, and you might have to try half a dozen spots in the first couple of hours before you find the fish.. If you had to move to each location at 10mph, you'd spend most of your time traveling instead of with a line in the water. Speed (to a point) can maximize your fishing time.

For example, when fishing birds in a bay, you will spot the birds working over baitfish maybe from 2-3 miles away...and have to run in there to beat other fishermen there, and to get there before the school of feeding fish sounds or moves off and stops feeding...

Or if you want to run out 100 miles offshore in the gulf to fish a productive wreck or reef, and you only have the weekend to fish, or even one day...

There are times when speed really pays off.

That being said, it is nice to slow down sometimes.

Yeah, see that just puts way too many variables in the way of my pleasure. Too many what-ifs for me. I prefer to blow up a worm, toss it over the side a few feet off the bottom and wait...

and wait.

My fishing philosophy can be summed up this way, I'm quoting my wife here, "where are they off to, there's good settin' to be done."

But I can see it if you're passionate about bringing in the fish. Some of my friends are very passionate about fishing.

Perfect example today...

Went out for a 5 hr fishing trip. We hit 3 good spots, to no avail. trying 2 more afterwards. The fish have moved down the lake to the far end, so we are planning on going there tomorrow. Its 22 miles to where we want to fish. No way is it possible for B to get here and for us to cruise out at displacement speeds.

I think sailing will have to have a catalyst for a rennaisance. Another one design that really grabs people like the El Toro or the Laser or some of the earlier designs.

Something that runs with the same parameters and efficiencies as my boat, with a cabin and more amenities would be awfully cool though.

E

Spokaloo wrote:Perfect example today...

Went out for a 5 hr fishing trip. We hit 3 good spots, to no avail. trying 2 more afterwards. The fish have moved down the lake to the far end, so we are planning on going there tomorrow. Its 22 miles to where we want to fish. No way is it possible for B to get here and for us to cruise out at displacement speeds.

I think sailing will have to have a catalyst for a rennaisance. Another one design that really grabs people like the El Toro or the Laser or some of the earlier designs.

Something that runs with the same parameters and efficiencies as my boat, with a cabin and more amenities would be awfully cool though.

E

Purpose of the boat is to move you from one fishing spot to another in record time, because you went out in order to fish. If you could teleport yourself from one fishing spot to another I think you would use this option.

If the purpose of the boat is for you to spend time on the water then sailboat is a good option. For me personally, fishing is on the bottom of the list - like, I would put some bait on the hook and throw it from the boat and wait. But that is in the eveninig when everything else (sailing) is done so why not.

When comparing EU and US you are forgotting the biggest difference: Fuel taxes. In 2005 "old EU" average was 1.18e/l = $6 / US gallon (current euro/dollar rate).
I now pay more than 1.3 e/l which is $6.60 / US gallon.
Think about heavy planing boat with that fuel costs.

So while people in US are saying the gas is getting expensive, it's not really so expensive yet.

Of course the economics are much different in EU or in US. In EU and especially Nordic countries has lot's of taxes but in other hand free health care and free education. Sometimes it's difficult to explain foreigners that in here you are paid for studying in Universities and other schools - not another way around. The normal work week is about 37 hours and normal paid holiday is 5 weeks per year (and the holiday is paid about double sallary).

In other hand - the wages are low and taxes are high...

There is another side to the question of how expesive $3.00/gallon really is. When a large part of our population is self-employed in fields like landscaping, real estate, sales, and other high-drive lines of work, it adds up quickly. We also live and work sometimes hours away from each stop. My wife's commute is one hour each way. My friend is a landscaper and his wife is a real estate broker who puts 25,000 miles/year on her SUV. She finally got something more fuel efficient. He puts on close to that and he has to drive a very heavy truck that gets about 10miles per gallon without the trailer attached. Plus equipment, it adds up fast.

In contrast, I almost never drive, so I consume very little fuel. The prices still piss me off because I know we're being played! They have us over a barrel and there's very little group dynamic that can react fast enough in this country to operate as an effective check on the industry price increases. They know there's going to be a huge lag in reaction time because of the structure of the American economy. You can't just give up driving your F350 because today the prices skyrocketed. If you need it for work, you're screwed. And Detroit isn't helping anyone out either. I don't know of any hybrid, green truck that will haul that gets 50mile per gallon. Deisels are nice, but they're not exactly money savers. $50,000 for a truck?! They couldn't give 'em away when I was a kid. Nobody wanted a truck. Today, they're the executive vehicle of choice. Go figure.

Sorry to bring up an older post, but I find this topic interesting. I'm looking to build something in between Atkin's "Sergeant Faunce" and Robbe & Berking's "9m Commuter." Pictures below. Sergeant Faunce is 24' x 4'8" and does 13.5 knots with 8hp. Commuter is 30' x 6'6" and does 30 knots with 147hp. I'm looking for a design that would be somewhere in between. I would like to use a 45hp diesel and get 16 knots at cruise. So I'm guessing size would be somewhere around 30' x 5' I like the for to aft deck on Sergeant Faunce, but I like the sit-under, stand-though cabin on Commuter. I have some ideas on that. Has anyone come across any other boats that are close to these?

Those boats are very narrow and that is what makes them so efficient.
I can guess what will happen if I design one, remarks like: "I like the boat but can we make her wider?"

fpjeepy05 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:32 am Sorry to bring up an older post, but I find this topic interesting. I'm looking to build something in between Atkin's "Sergeant Faunce" and Robbe & Berking's "9m Commuter." Pictures below. Sergeant Faunce is 24' x 4'8" and does 13.5 knots with 8hp. Commuter is 30' x 6'6" and does 30 knots with 147hp. I'm looking for a design that would be somewhere in between. I would like to use a 45hp diesel and get 16 knots at cruise. So I'm guessing size would be somewhere around 30' x 5' I like the for to aft deck on Sergeant Faunce, but I like the sit-under, stand-though cabin on Commuter. I have some ideas on that. Has anyone come across any other boats that are close to these?
http://yard.robbeberking.com/commuter/original/li-00068.jpg
http://yard.robbeberking.com/commuter/original/li-00001.jpg
http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Utilities/images/SergeantFaunce-1.gif
http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Utilities/images/SergeantFaunce-2.gif

There was recently some good discussion about the long slender commuters at boatdesign.net.

If you can't find it, I will get the link for you, let me know.

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:55 am Those boats are very narrow and that is what makes them so efficient.
I can guess what will happen if I design one, remarks like: "I like the boat but can we make her wider?"

Surely, because they will like the looks of it so much they will want it for a recreational vessel and not just a taxi!

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:55 am Those boats are very narrow and that is what makes them so efficient.
I can guess what will happen if I design one, remarks like: "I like the boat but can we make her wider?"

If they want a wider version there are thousands to choose from... I think it would be ideal if you could design the boat so that the sole went over the engine. In which case you have a great excuse to not change the design. If it gets wider it needs more HP and then the engine will no longer fit.

I find boats of that sort very beautiful and I commute by boat five days a week for a lot of the year; I am basically the ideal target market for such a boat.

I can sum up the reason I would not build or buy one in a single word: moorage.

In a tight bay, a thirty foot boat is going to sweep out in a big circle and that limits the spots I can put a mooring. The only practical place for me to leave it is at a dock, where I'm now paying for a thirty foot slip, in which I keep a canoe. For the same money, I could keep a small floating apartment or a serious offshore fishing monster in that space. Or, I could not rent thirty feet of dock space but just twenty, and have an extra $1500 a year to spend on fuel, in which case I can totally afford to run a more conventionally proportioned boat which will do more than just commute. Or I could trailer it easily, or leave it on a mooring in a spot that's convenient and spend nothing on slip fees and have five thousand dollars a year to play with and burn gas on a twin outboard deep V.

This is the problem that the skinny commuters always run into...they're very fuel efficient but hard to trailer and expensive to store, and they only really do one thing well.

Meanwhile, even though for my entire life I've been hearing predictions about how more efficient, practical powerboats are about to become super popular, Suzuki now makes a duoprop 350, Yamaha has half-ton 425s and Mercury is up to what, 450hp outboards? Block-long centre consoles with two or three big motors are the most desirable boats and borrowing money is cheaper than ever so the guy framing your house drives a Cummins powered 3500 and tows a Contender to the beach on the weekends.

I don't think we're really on the verge of a big shift to narrow, efficient boats. That's a real niche market for ex-sailors. And self-built efficient boats (because let's be honest, building your own boats is not cheap) is a niche of a niche.


All that said I think Jacques' Tina comes FAIRLY close to what you are asking for. It's not ultra narrow but it's narrow, and the lines are from a time when lower power was common.

I totally agree, and it makes me very sad. Minimalism is nearly non-existent in America. Just because you can drive a 3500 pickup doesn't mean you should. Boat ownership in America is sad in itself. Average recreational use in America is 80hrs/yr. The amount of resources that goes into something that gets used so little and then is thrown in a landfill is disheartening. I want a fuel-efficient boat because I want to burn less fuel. Not because I want to save money. If other people had the same thinking as myself, there would be marina's that were selling narrower slips at a discounted rate. But what is happening is exactly the opposite. The marina I used to be in is being torn down and rebuilt with slips for "modern" boats i.e. wider. I saw an 18fter with 8'6" beam and a 350 on it the other day.

All that said, just because no one else is doing it isn't going to stop me.

Also can you add a link to "Jacques' Tina"? I couldn't find anyting on google.

https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=64118

It's a new design here which is shorter and wider than either boat you've described but a relatively modern boat by current standards, while still in a hull shape that I would consider pretty multi-purpose, but which I would expect to run quite efficiently at moderate speeds.

That is a cool boat. I personally am still stuck on not excessing 45hp

The original Tina was fitted with a big V8!
It is difficult to imagine a 25 to 30' hull that would move about 8 knots with 45 HP unless we go for an unusual beam to length ratio.

Agreed. I would plan for a beam of around 60". More or less depending on the flare in the hull.

If you're really set on those parameters, but you can't find an older design you can adapt to modern build methods, then I think your options are either design it on your own, or hire someone to do the design work on a custom basis. They're interesting boats, the skinny commuters, but I think it will be hard to find pre-existing designs for the reasons I laid out earlier. They won't sell more than a few copies and I would think most designers doing stuff on spec would want to sell hundreds of copies of the plans to recoup the time they invest.

But if you find something I would be interested to see it, just out of curiosity.

If I can't find a set of plans that I can modify, I will likely design it myself and then pay a designer to review for errors.

a friend just sent me this listing... https://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/boa/d/ ... 41647.html
Different, but similar.

a friend just sent me this listing... https://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/boa/d/ ... 41647.html
Different, but similar.

fpjeepy05 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:30 pm a friend just sent me this listing... https://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/boa/d/ ... 41647.html
Different, but similar.

That boat isn't a commuter.

fpjeepy05 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:45 pm If I can't find a set of plans that I can modify, I will likely design it myself and then pay a designer to review for errors.

That's a big job but there is another solution, something I have done for other builders: fora fee, I can calculate the scantlings for an Atkins design. You get the plans from Atkins, I do the calculations.

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:49 am That boat isn't a commuter.

Agreed. But it does get 13mpg

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:51 am

fpjeepy05 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:45 pm If I can't find a set of plans that I can modify, I will likely design it myself and then pay a designer to review for errors.

That's a big job but there is another solution, something I have done for other builders: fora fee, I can calculate the scantlings for an Atkins design. You get the plans from Atkins, I do the calculations.

The problem is, there isn't an Atkins design I would like to build. I don't mind paying to get some help, but to make matters more complicated, I am leaning towards constructing from aluminum.

Fast Launch 26?

Sadly all boats are tradeoffs.

There is no luxury in the economy cruiser. This is why the statement of requirements is so essential.

For example, the boat pictured would not be suitable for most commuter boats. The pax would be soaked, and the vessel at risk in 6 footers.

Diesel inboards are often touted as the ideal, but they are expensive and more difficult to build.

The Nina 22 is probably my favorite for a commuter; although the downside is speed. The Nina 22 would put that skiff picture to shame. I don't know the fuel economy, but I would guess 6-8mpg at the right throttle/speed tradeoff.

And the Nina would be ultra-quiet, too. Pax could have a conversation in low tones in a low head cuddy and the helm could probably be managed inside with a remote, but I could be wrong.

Not sure if you could do a hybrid ally and foam build, but ally would be a fast hull and then you would build light for any cabin/seating area.

Chuck H wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:56 am Fast Launch 26?

I like the fast launch 26. I was hoping to get similar numbers speed wise with a 30x5’ it sounds very possible if the fast launch can do it with 26x8’ I would like to have a smaller flat on the bottom with some deadrise to accompany it. Additionally I would like to have a walkthrough-cabin with an open bow instead of an express style. This will likely be difficult with the narrower beam. Likely necessitating the engine below the sole. Which will be tough.

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:28 am Sadly all boats are tradeoffs.

There is no luxury in the economy cruiser. This is why the statement of requirements is so essential.

For example, the boat pictured would not be suitable for most commuter boats. The pax would be soaked, and the vessel at risk in 6 footers.

Diesel inboards are often touted as the ideal, but they are expensive and more difficult to build.

The Nina 22 is probably my favorite for a commuter; although the downside is speed. The Nina 22 would put that skiff picture to shame. I don't know the fuel economy, but I would guess 6-8mpg at the right throttle/speed tradeoff.

And the Nina would be ultra-quiet, too. Pax could have a conversation in low tones in a low head cuddy and the helm could probably be managed inside with a remote, but I could be wrong.

Not sure if you could do a hybrid ally and foam build, but ally would be a fast hull and then you would build light for any cabin/seating area.

I am looking at commuter boats because those are the only ones with the fuel economy I am looking for, but I actually plan to use it for fishing.

I agree diesels make the design more difficult, but I think they lend themselves better to getting the proper weight distribution for semi-displacement boats. (LCG further forward.) Also generally they have better fishability do to the open cockpit.

Also I'm thinking longer and narrow than Nina.

You asked a similar question on another forum but worded it different here. This cannot be an offshore fishing boat!

Most on the other forum tried to dissuade you and you would not listen. Please don't take the same approach here.

Did you look at Bolger plans? he has some very narrow designs.

BB Sig has it right.

You want to build a boat that isn't.

A fishing platform designed for low fuel consumption is a catamaran. But nothing is going to give you great mpg and be nice to fish from.

The problem with your approach is you are failing boats 101. Boats are tradeoffs.

The sor leads the way. Debate within the sor is answered by the sor.

Example.

I want a stable fishing platform for offshore use that is economical and fast. Doesn't exist.

You have to prioritize within the sor.

I want an offshore fishing platform.
I want fuel efficiency.
I want speed.

Only then can you find the right design.

Seems to me like a panga would be the closest fit but that is just my guess.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:23 pm Seems to me like a panga would be the closest fit but that is just my guess.

Maybe, but he wanted a cabin.

I wanted efficient too, more for range than anything else. Cruising uninhabited islands.

What I find is that the efficiency is very weight sensitive. And when you load down for a trip (or ice / gear / friends for fishing) the economy is affected severely.

Its an interesting intellectual exercise for me, I love watching boats like Irens' go through the water (Greta youtube video) but they can only do that unladen and in smooth water. When I load my boat down (1000+lbs of stuff) it rides better and more comfortably. And I lose 0.8-1.0mpg. So I plan for it on the trip, and carry extra fuel. Which is more weight, so the economy suffers. Rinse & repeat.

A friend is infatuated with drawing super long and narrow boats, often as a Tri or Proa. They would be awesome for solo backwater camping and exploring but not much more.

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:22 pm

Fuzz wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:23 pm Seems to me like a panga would be the closest fit but that is just my guess.

Maybe, but he wanted a cabin.

I designed a Panga with cabin and that could be close to his requirements:
https://bateau.com/studyplans/PG25C_stu ... prod=PG25C.

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:43 am
Boats are tradeoffs.

You are right. I want to trade stability and speed for fuel economy in a fishing boat.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:23 pm Seems to me like a panga would be the closest fit but that is just my guess.

I do love panga's. Even though all pangas are narrow fishing boats, not all narrow fishing boats are pangas.

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:57 am Did you look at Bolger plans? he has some very narrow designs.

Wow 1) Phil Bolger has a TON of plans. 2) He has some VERY narrow designs.

Thanks

An accomplished designer has steered you to a boat that best fits your program. I've learned a lot from this forum. One of the best lessons is that when Jacques gives his "opinion", take it as boat building gospel.

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:09 pm I designed a Panga with cabin and that could be close to his requirements:
https://bateau.com/studyplans/PG25C_stu ... prod=PG25C.

Have you ever designed a "power sharpie"? Is that a phrase coined by Phil Bolger?

Jetski Power plants... Are there any plans that use the jet package from an older jetski? I know it might not be the most efficient package, but having the ability to much the LCG forward (compared to an outboard) could make the boat have the safety/stability of a larger (less efficient) boat.

In the builders power boat section at the top there is a pwc build.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:22 pm In the builders power boat section at the top there is a pwc build.

Cool Thanks

fpjeepy05 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:59 pm Jetski Power plants... Are there any plans that use the jet package from an older jetski? I know it might not be the most efficient package, but having the ability to much the LCG forward (compared to an outboard) could make the boat have the safety/stability of a larger (less efficient) boat.

There is a 50 page story about that on the forum. I drafted the plans 10 years ago:

https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=40346

Plans here:
https://boatbuildercentral.com/wp/prodd ... ?prod=JA18

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:52 am

fpjeepy05 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:59 pm Jetski Power plants... Are there any plans that use the jet package from an older jetski? I know it might not be the most efficient package, but having the ability to much the LCG forward (compared to an outboard) could make the boat have the safety/stability of a larger (less efficient) boat.

There is a 50 page story about that on the forum. I drafted the plans 10 years ago:

https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=40346

Plans here:
https://boatbuildercentral.com/wp/prodd ... ?prod=JA18