Fiberglass & Epxoy

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 12:36 pm

I am considering building by first boat. I downloaded the D4 Free files on your website and consulted a retailer about the epoxy and fiberglass. A fisherman in the store said I needed to coat the entire boat with fiberglass twice then Fasten it to the wood with either screws or nails and repeat the fiberglass for a third time. Your website doesn´t say anything about screwing the fiberglass to the wood. If you can give me some more info on the subject I´d Appreciate it. Thanks

BilltheCat · Post by **BilltheCat** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 1:40 pm

You need to make a couple of more downloads and you can see that el fisherman was pulling your leg, a complete butt, or as we say in the south - ignurt! Try downloading the instructions for the free canoe instructions at: <A HREF="http://www.boatbuilder-online.com/free/cheapcanoe.htm" TARGET="_blank">Cheap Canoe</A> then download the epoxy book at System Three´s index page (have to give them a little info first): <a href="http://www.systemthree.com/index.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.systemthree.com/index.html</a> In the end, I bet your boat will not have any metal connectors & may or may not be fiberglass covered. Enjoy the adventure! [ This message was edited by: BilltheCat on 26-10-2002 13:41 ]

Post by **jacquesmm** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 3:36 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE> On 2002-10-26 12:36, Anonymous wrote: I am considering building by first boat. I downloaded the D4 Free files on your website and consulted a retailer about the epoxy and fiberglass. A fisherman in the store said I needed to coat the entire boat with fiberglass twice then Fasten it to the wood with either screws or nails and repeat the fiberglass for a third time. Your website doesn´t say anything about screwing the fiberglass to the wood. If you can give me some more info on the subject I´d Appreciate it. Thanks </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE> Are you the same person than the one who asked about his boat building expert barber?

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 4:07 pm

No, it wasn´t the same person. I guess beginners are not welcome here.

LarryA · Post by **LarryA** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:48 pm

Beginners are very welcome!! We have been having a little fun with an Anonymous fellow who wanted to know how to "not smell like gas" from his 2 cycle outboard and another fellow who said that his barber told him that the boat was not strong enough - forgive those of us who may have gotten a bit slap happy. So you basically caught us on a bad day - one of the dangers of posting as anonymous is that you can be confused with other posters <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif"> To answer your question. The concept of stitch and glue is that screws and nails are not necessary (you don´t find them in foam cored boats either). The D4 plans have been built MANY times by people who have no boatbuilding experience and who have asked some of the strangest questions you might imagine. The bottom line is: the boat, as designed is easily constructable by a newby. It is well wrong rung out and there are many here who can answer your questions. Sometimes, we get a little rough around the edges and so just need to take us with a grain of salt.

Skydad · Post by **Skydad** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:24 pm

Not only what Larry said, why are you pricing epoxy in a retail store. Order it on line at bateau.com and save some money and probably some grief. Remember, those so called experts who are tellintg you how to build your boat know absolutely nothing about advanced composite stitch & glue construction. It really is easy, but get your construction info. here, not from some ignurt person that is stupid besides. Good Luck!!!!! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif">

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sun Oct 27, 2002 8:00 am

Hi Anonymous, The fisherman was not pulling your leg. That technique of multiple layers of fiberglass mechanically fastened to the hull comes from a book by Allen Waitses (sp?), a boatbuilder from the early fiberglass days who developed a technique to fix the problem of polyester resin/fiberglass peeling off of boats. His analyses of the problem was that the regular weave in the glass was allowing micro cracks in each layer to line up and let water pass through to the underlying wood, softening it and allowing the fiberglass to peel away when the hull flexed from wave motion. His solution was to first lay down a layer or two of matte. His theory was that the random fiber orientation would keep the micro cracks from lining up. Then to control the flexing, he´d staple, screw or otherwise mechanically fasten the matte layer to the hull every 4 to 8 inches. After that he´d apply the final layers of woven cloth. Another interesting bit of his technique was that he didn´t strip the hull down to bare wood. He had best results when he removed only the peeling paint and left the tight stuff on. With the benefits of hindsight and much chemical research, we now know that his technique, although it resulted in more permanent bonds, is completely wrong. The reason that the water got to the wood was because polyester resins are not waterproof. They will let water pass through. Polyester will also not bond to anything well except polyester. So Mr. W´s technique worked by building a second boat around the first one and then screwing the 2 together. The layer of pre-existing paint made things better because it gave some additional waterproofing that the polyester resin did not. Also interesting to note was that he had to use the fasteners on steel boats, too, even though they did not flex or rot the way wood did. This was because of polyester´s bad bonding again. So what the fisherman told you about was an early method of repairing old wooden boats with polyester resin and fiberglass. The boats on this site are new construction, and most importantly, use epoxy resin. Epoxy resin IS waterproof and WILL bond to wood, metal, etc. Also, the System 3 formulation recommended here is specifically designed for marine applications and will flex right along with the hull during wave action, etc. (especially since it is not applied in 3/4 inch layers as in Waitses´ method!). I hope this helps clear up the confusion. Waitses´ method was very innovative for its time and he wrote a very readable and informative book about it, but it was based on empirical findings, not engineering analyses and it managed to miss the root cause of the problem. It isn´t applicable, especially to any of Jacques´ carefully engineered, epoxy-based designs. Trust the designer, build the D4 as specified and you´ll have a blast with it (and spend much less money and time and have a much lighter, stronger boat). Good luck, Laszlo

JimW · Post by **JimW** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:20 am

Forgive us father for we have flamed. Beginners are welcome here. A year and a half ago I was a beginner. But I didn´t ask just anyone about what I read here. I went to an independent expert. I read a book about epoxy boat constriuction by Devlin, then another by the guys who own West epoxy company. The pictures of those boats built with epoxy and almost no fasteners convinced be that a paradigm shift in boat building at home had taken place. The designs on this site are pushing the leading edge of that new home built boat paradigm. I know this because I kept reading everything I could find on the subject. Never found anything that compared to these boats simplicity, usefulness, strength and lightweight. This is the real McCoy right here. If you´re suspect, do research, .... but don´t believe every Joe Blow on the street. That´s why it´s a paradigm shift, because it´s a completely new way of thinking about home boat building. Jim

Post by **jacquesmm** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:40 am

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE> On 2002-10-26 16:07, Anonymous wrote: No, it wasn´t the same person. I guess beginners are not welcome here. </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE> Beginners are welcome but I really thought that you were joking. One minute I read a message about somebody who believes his barber more than the designer of his boat, next, a fishermen recommends to put nails in our fiberglass! Does that sound serious? See the link on the left, the one that says HowTo. There are tutorials with step by step pictures: no nails, no lag bolts. The answer to 99% of questions is there. Please read the HowTo files and you will understand how simple it si and realize that your fisherman has no clue. Ask him when was the last time he saw a fiberglass boat held together with nails. Also check the other message thread about the barber: it was posted at the same time. [ This message was edited by: jacquesmm on 28-10-2002 08:45 ]

Boat Builder Central

Builder Forum