And the planning begins!

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Matt Gent
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by Matt Gent »

Evan_Gatehouse wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:17 pm In 2005 I bought a 40' catamaran. It had no bridgedeck cabin, but it had a mast and some rigging equipment. Sort of a fleshed in interior, but no stove, a few lights etc. Basically a 40' daysailor.

In 4-1/2 years of part time work (~1.5-2 days/week) I added a bridgedeck cabin, built a new galley, installed a diesel, new genoa, radar, SSB radio, dinghy, watermaker, windlass, anchors, more sails, etc etc. Everything required for bluewater sailing. Sailed it around the world from 2009 to 2017.

It cost me 65K for the bare boat and 70K for the building/outfittting/ etc. etc. = 135K Canadian. Or in USD, very close to 100K.
...
So let's say 15-20hrs/wk, 48 wks/yr, 4-1/2 yrs. 3600hrs. What do you value your time at? $72k at $20/hr; >$180k at $50/hr.

Buying retail hardware has been a killer for me, even for small projects. Stainless hardware by "each" prices are silly.

I know we are all on here because we like building boats, but fairing and sanding acres of surface doesn't seem so rewarding. We have a migrant worker population around here that you can day-hire, maybe there's a solution in there somewhere. A local builder of Wharram cats works that way.

Billharrison
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by Billharrison »

Excellent advice, assuming we have a boat show this year (Please 2020 / byeeee) Setting foot on different plans would be excellent advice. Anyone in the cleveland area wanna teach me to sail? Beer and dinners on me

fallguy1000
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by fallguy1000 »

You are getting a lot of sage advice.

You are starting to develop a statement of requirements.

Neko is very correct about a monohull having more interior space. The tradeoff is the cat is more stable at sea, but has a faster movement as the hulls are behaving on different waves often.

If you plan to live onboard for a long time; a 35' monohull minimum. A 40' cat minimum.

Risks to vessels are easy to understand. A sailboat can get dismasted. A power vesel can lose engines. Fire can kill either.

I would recommend you consider motor sailors. Very expensive to build. Think like 250k as a low end. But you can buy one used around 100k?

As a large boat buyer, you never purchase wothout a sirvey; which you generally fund. It seems crazy to pay money to find out if you want to buy a boat, but fools don't. Boats can have so many problems. I bought a 1974 balsa cored starfire. The core was rotten, but I missed it because it was frozen solid. A surveyor would have caught it. Boat was garbage, $3000 and it cost me $300 more at the dump to get it landfilled. I sold a few parts of it and maybe recovered $500-$1000. If you pay 100,000 for a boat with a rotten core; you probably gut it and spend $30,000 on a repair and lose 3 years. No thanks. Buy a sailboat that has had a keel grounding and need to rekeel it and that'll set you back similar or worse.

Anyhow, I think the Richard Woods Meander is a boat to look at.

fyi. I drafted this message before Gatehouse! I just got interrupted at the end and didn't hit submit.
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

joe2700
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by joe2700 »

Matt Gent wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:58 am
Buying retail hardware has been a killer for me, even for small projects. Stainless hardware by "each" prices are silly.
This is a killer. I learned to buy as much as much as possible in bulk. And that's for my small boat, can't imagine one of the big projects. Any consumables like gloves, sandpaper, rags, brushes, rollers just buy a case at the beginning or even better a pallet. Wire, electrical connectors, fasteners too.

For what it's worth I like marineboltsupply.com for 316 stainless hardware. Started with a few of the multi size kits then bought bags of 100 once I knew what I needed.

Its more money up front which can be hard but you save a lot in the long run in money and in time, not running to the hardware store running out in the middle of a task.

fallguy1000
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by fallguy1000 »

You are getting a lot of sage advice.

You are starting to develop a statement of requirements.

Neko is very correct about a monohull having more interior space. The tradeoff is the cat is more stable at sea, but has a faster movement as the hulls are behaving on different waves often.

If you plan to live onboard for a long time; a 35' monohull minimum. A 40' cat minimum.

Risks to vessels are easy to understand. A sailboat can get dismasted. A power vesel can lose engines. Fire can kill either.

I would recommend you consider motor sailors. Very expensive to build. Think like 250k as a low end. But you can buy one used around 100k?

As a large boat buyer, you never purchase wothout a sirvey; which you generally fund. It seems crazy to pay money to find out if you want to buy a boat, but fools don't. Boats can have so many problems. I bought a 1974 balsa cored starfire. The core was rotten, but I missed it because it was frozen solid. A surveyor would have caught it. Boat was garbage, $3000 and it cost me $300 more at the dump to get it landfilled. I sold a few parts of it and maybe recovered $500-$1000. If you pay 100,000 for a boat with a rotten core; you probably gut it and spend $30,000 on a repair and lose 3 years. No thanks. Buy a sailboat that has had a keel grounding and need to rekeel it and that'll set you back similar or worse.

Anyhow, I think the Richard Woods Meander is a boat to look at.

<- still in the buffer Jaysen
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

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Evan_Gatehouse
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by Evan_Gatehouse »

What do you value your time at?
Nothing - I already had a full time job working 38 hrs/week. So no time to work more and pay somebody a lesser wage to sand etc.
a monohull having more interior space. The tradeoff is the cat is more stable at sea, but has a faster movement as the hulls are behaving on different waves often.

If you plan to live onboard for a long time; a 35' monohull minimum. A 40' cat minimum.
This simply is not true. A catamaran has more interior space than a monohull of same length. A typical 40' monohull has 3 cabins; forepeak/main saloon/aft cabin. A typical 40' catamaran has 4 x double berths in separate spaces + a large main saloon in the middle.

Image 38 Catamaran
Image 38' mono
designer: FB11/GV10,11,13/ HMD18/
SK17,MM21/MT24

TomW1
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by TomW1 »

Evan_Gatehouse wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:02 pm
What do you value your time at?
Nothing - I already had a full time job working 38 hrs/week. So no time to work more and pay somebody a lesser wage to sand etc.
a monohull having more interior space. The tradeoff is the cat is more stable at sea, but has a faster movement as the hulls are behaving on different waves often.

If you plan to live onboard for a long time; a 35' monohull minimum. A 40' cat minimum.
This simply is not true. A catamaran has more interior space than a monohull of same length. A typical 40' monohull has 3 cabins; forepeak/main saloon/aft cabin. A typical 40' catamaran has 4 x double berths in separate spaces + a large main saloon in the middle.

Image 38 Catamaran
Image 38' mono
Totally agree, Evan. A large cat has alot more room than the same size monohull.

Tom
Restored Mirror Dinghy, Bought OD18 built by CL, Westlawn School of Yacht Design courses. LT US Navy 1970-1978

Billharrison
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by Billharrison »

Well, spent the last month or so scouring websites, taking everyones advice into consideration, and have found myself in a definitely different place.

Buying and refitting certainly seems like a better use of my time / energy and money than starting from scratch on a monohull. They can just be had for very reasonable prices. I was not in love with it as a live aboard but I am starting to come around considering the large availability of models / layouts, much lower price of entry, and lower operating costs when it comes to being at slips, docking/ etc.

I have really fallen for the Hunter Legends, available in a few different lengths ranging from 35-40 feet with minor differences. They have a center rear bedroom that I really like, and the 40 has two full baths. I found a reasonable example for asking price of 12k and nice examples seem to have asking prices around 60k. This gets into the "bluewater" or not talk. I need something I can take ANYWHERE, but as a live aboard I have no intentions of being in a hurry and will hopefully avoid most storms etc, but I need something that can handle it. Most people say they are not capable, but could upgrades make a difference? I plan on buying soonish and living aboard locally (Cleveland) for 5 years before taking off, and plan to fully replace all rigging (Can upgrade all this when done) and can even kevlar the hull if suggested. I have no problem putting the time and money in it since my budget goes way further buying a boat like this.

Also, any magic numbers on sizes to really change costs ? I know most things are by the foot, slips, docks, storage, etc, so obviously the smaller, the cheaper, and of course as a long time planned live aboard the more room imo the better that can be reasonably single handed. But like i guess is there a sweet spot like 39 avoids signifigant cost increases that occur at 40?

Also any boats similar to the Hunter legends that I may want to do some looking into?

Thanks for all the sage advice so far! It is definitely helping to shape my plans.

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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by VT_Jeff »

Bill,

I agree with your assessment that buying is better when your goal is usage and not the build experience. Leave the epoxy stirring to someone else!

I'm not a sailor but I am a guy with a 29' sailboat. Bay by day stuff mostly.
If you are going to be solo, will you be able to manage the ground tackle needed for a 40'? That's a criteria I recall reading about in one of my sailing books at some point which stuck in my mind, wondering if it's worth considering. I know that getting my anchor and chain up manually is about at the limit of my 53 year old back. a manual windlass would be a huge improvement.
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Re: And the planning begins!

Post by narfi »

11 years you want a blue water cruising live aboard, initial thought was catamaran but budget eliminates that, so you thought build it, but that is expensive as well, so now smaller fixer upper monohull.

Do I have that right so far?

You want to live aboard now, you probably want to learn or practice sailing meantime, you want your money to stretch so that you have the most seaworthy live aboard possible in 11 years......

From what I understand, (no personal experience just what I have read on the internet) after a year of covid it is a sellers market on cruising boats, everyone cooped up has watched youtube cruisers all year dreaming it was them and bought up whatever they could because they were sick of being stuck inside during the pandemic.....

This means whatever you buy now will be overpriced (maybe).

How about this..... Find the smallest floating hunk of junk you can practically live in for the next 5-10 years. Have it surveyed, you need an 'ok' engine and 'ok' rigging and sails. They don't need to cross oceans, but they do need to get you a couple years of playing around. Then spend the next few years 'fixing' it up cosmetically, refurbishing all the wiring, plumbing, interior, exterior, etc..... find the cheapest place you can tie it up during that time with the least amenities (none if possible) and live as spartan a lifestyle as possible. Then in 10 years sell it for what you bought it for and buy something like this(randomly picked off the internet) https://www.catamarans.com/used-sail-ca ... eno/799955

Spend a year getting used to it and making it bluewater ready and then head out.

I think that is the direction your mind is going... not sure what is the best approach really, like everything there are lots of compromises that have to be made for your specific wants and needs.
Best way to get the most boat after X years is to drastically downsize lifestyle (rent, utilities, entertainment, eating out, electronics, toys, etc....) and work 50% more every week.

Can that be done on a boat? maybe... I don't know. The romanticized dream is there for sure, but what is the real cost of living in a run down boat under the bridge? Repairs and upkeep, heat and other expenses will catch up to you quickly.

The other thing to consider for planning, once you have your perfect blue water boat and head out full time live aboard, the spending doesnt stop. You still have all of your utilities and groceries and living expenses, they are just different. I think carefully done, once you have purchased and upgraded your boat you can live aboard as cheaply as you can on land, but I don't think significantly cheaper and you pay the price of downsizing your lifestyle significantly.

A lot of those choices and compromises will depend on your significant other (and if you don't have one, then the chances of finding one). You could rent a trapping cabin 50 miles back in the hills off the grid and road system cheaply, cut your own firewood, grow a garden, hunt and raise a few meat animals, and you would still end up having to buy supplies, clothes, ammo, medical, etc.....

Enough rambling from me sorry. I am in the same boat as you, looking roughly 8-10yrs out, wife and I are both committed to the dream, and working out the best way to realistically achieve it. Fortunately I love to build, and so it is easier for me to shift those compromises in that direction. Wife likes level floors, and doesn't want to 'live in a cave' so it will be a multihull. Meanwhile we are both working two+ jobs and saving every penny we can :)

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