What larger design for lake use in NZ - PH22, AB23 or something else?

[jmacnz]

Thanks for the video's BarraMan, that is an impressive boat, and impressive stability as you suggested.

Tom, I'm not intending for anything in the sea except a little inlet use when calm perhaps. Predominantly this built is intended as my long term lake boat for fresh water fishing (at rest jigging and fly fishing, and slow trolling) plus some family adventures with my young kids (by the time I'd be finished they still wouldn't be teenagers)

Even with it a lake boat, it would be a fair weather machine, with the only need to handle chop is if the weather picked up and we needed to get back. Therefore I'd call it moderate lake chop as the most I need to handle. I like the front casting deck, and not having too high sheer at the bow, hence my original attraction to an AB23 and PH22. The GP21 suggestion seems to be a good call, and BarraMan's Mangusta 20 also looks like a purposeful boat. I guess now, I'm just keen to understand the cockpit depths and freeboard of the above, along with their ability to handle a moderate fresh water lake chop.

I'm expecting from the responses that the AB23 is the largest time and material undertaking to build, and overkill in terms of rough water capability for my requirements?
I still like the clean well shaped looks of a PH22 and it's really wide stable platform, and if I were to add reverse chines and strakes, would it be capable enough in moderate lake chop? Or is the deadrise just too flat the whole way down it's length?
It seems the GP21 ticks the boxes from the responses, so that's being closely considered. Keen to know how different the hull would be to a PH22 in terms of deadrise and cockpit depth/freeboard.
Mangusta looks to be a great boat in BarraMans videos. So I'm looking into that a bit more. But keen to know what people would compare the pro's and con's of this against the above hulls as well?

Thanks for the responses so far. Helping to mould my thinking.

[pee wee]

Barraman's build is an excellent example of how these designs can be adapted to suit your needs, and how the study plans are merely a suggestion of what could be done. The hull size and shape beneath the water are most important, how much draft and how much cockpit area a design has is also important. Location of the helm, seats, size of side/bow decks, storage, even the sheer can be altered to customize a design to your purposes. Each design has a "program", a purpose to the design that you want to respect- e.g.: if it's a flats boat it is meant to be able to get in shallow water, minimum draft, so if you add a lot of features you lose that shallow draft; in fact, the majority of designs here are done with the goal of a boat that is strong and light, with all the advantages that would entail.

I agree that the AB23 is targeted more for offshore capability than your needs require, maybe the GP21 can be customized to be the perfect boat for your family.

[TomW1]

I would not go with the MG20, it has even more V and lesser interior room than a GP21, C21. Lee uses it to run to distant fishing grounds. It needs the higher HP that he has on it. 250hp I believe it needs it to drive it. After thinking about it and reading your latest post, go for the GP21. In the study plans it says the spray rails are optional, I would put them on. I think that the GP21 will make you a great lake fishing boat. Also lightly loaded with your family it would be a good play boat with a larger motor, if your into skiing or tubing with less HP.

Well good luck which ever boat you choose, we will be here to help with what ever questions you have as you build.

Tom

[jmacnz]

Cheers for your help everyone

[OneWayTraffic]

Hi. I'm Amberley based in the South Island. I bought plans for the OB17, PG20, FS17, HM19, LB22 and the C17 over a period of 3 years. Decisive I know! But I did get many many hours of entertainment looking at the plans and building/redesigning the boats in my head. I eventually went with the C17 and am mostly finished the outside. Build thread in the forum below. "C17 in New Zealand."

I would not recommend any of the American flats boats for NZ lakes, especially down in Canterbury/Otago where I am. They are designed for conditions and environments we just don't see here. The Northwester can turn a Southern Lake dangerous very quickly. My C17 I would consider a suitable design. It's a very moderate deadrise hull: 45 at cutwater and 10 at the transom. Most NZ boats have a few more degrees at the transom. The medium deadrise does lead to excellent low speed handling.

In the 17' size the FS17 and OB17 are also pretty capable, but the C17 has a cabin and a bit more room. The FS17 is quite small. Seaworthy but small.

If you can go bigger the C19, HMD19 and P19 are good options. The C19 is open, the other two have a roof.

The P21 and C21 are slightly overwide for NZ towing, though you could get around this a little by playing with the rubrail.

If you want more room, and a good boat for the family have a look at the NV23 or the DE23. Good family options.

To our US friends: When a NZer says lake fishing, the boat needs to handle going from dead flat calm to at least a 3' closely spaced chop at a few minutes notice. 4'-6' is not unheard of on the larger Southern lakes or Taupo. If it can't handle that, you need to stay close to shore if at all possible. I took a 12' dinghy across lake Te Anau once, but I was over to the other side in 5 minutes. I probably wouldn't do it again.

[fallguy1000]

Those C series boats are sure fun to see built. I like the way they look so large internally.

[jmacnz]

Thanks for your input guys, all thoughts are valid. But now I'm not sure which way to look, haha. From all my reading through forums, it looked to me like the guys from various places in North America get some very choppy lake conditions, but for sure, it's a hard comparison to make with people half way around the world interpreting only words.

I'll need to let all this digest for a while. I'd be keen to hear if the designer Jacques has any more thoughts, and if there's other options he'd suggest, or is the GP21 a head and shoulders stand out candidate?

BarraMan has a beautiful big boat in the upsized Mangusta. I did see he commented in a post that in hindsight he may also have considered the AB23 knowing then what he knows now.. Either way, both those boats feel like big HP weapons compared to what my requirements are. But the thoughts from OneWayTraffic have me second geussing.

I guess if all these decisions were easy, it would be boring.

I do like the GP21, slightly prefer the sleek beauty of the PH22 (and keep hanging on to it's study plans description as a 'bay boat' which I thought of as equivalent for 'lake boat'), and also like the clean lines of the AB23 (but understand it's a big beast with big HP, and we've already acknowledged this design as overkill for my needs). I've looked at the C series hulls, but don't love them like I love the lower flatter slender lines of these others, and that's just a personal taste thing. I guess this is where as an architectural designer I'm getting hung up on aesthetics just as much as practicalities

[Browndog]

Having fished in New Zealand on both the North and South Islands on some of the lakes that you are referencing I can relate to the requirements you are trying to accommodate. New Zealand is also a rocky place.

The North American style boats that would be a good fit are those that are used in the Pacific Northwest & Alaska, as well as the Great Lakes and in Canada. Aluminum as a hull material works well in these places because of the rocky nature of the operating area.

The “Bay Boats” in the US are used predominately in the Southeast States and Gulf of Mexico areas for inshore and nearshore use where the bottom is predominately sand or mud with some oyster reefs. No rocks here. It is generally warm with lots of sun, so T tops or Bimini Tops instead of Hardtops and Cabins like up North.

The design program for Bay boats is to have shallow draft consistent with good seakeeping when crossing a large expanse of Sound or Bay while accommodating several anglers. Generally sized between 18-25 feet. While operating the boat you generally feel like you are in the boat as opposed to on top of the boat in a comparable Flats Skiff. The FS 19 and the PH 22 would fit the Bay Boat program.

The Bay Boat style is in between a Flats skiffs, like the PH 16 & FS 18, which is really designed for sight fishing in very shallow water and the larger freeboard and deeper V boats better suited to the large Bays, Near Shore and Offshore use, like the C19, C21, AB 23 and CS 23 & 25.

The Pangas are another interesting choice designed to be beached and used in shallow water, with a flattish rear hull for efficiency and a deep V up front and high forefoot for better seakeeping in chop.

The OB 19 would be a good fit for your requirements, not as deep as the C19 but deeper and more room than the FS 19. Built with a dual console, a walk through windshield and a folding top with isinglass for cold or rainy days might be just right.

[jmacnz]

Thanks for your input Browndog. I think you may be right on the money with the OB19. I've always like the look of the OB17's that Sideslippa, and Boater45 built, with the flat gunwales and clean faired reverse chines. A larger version could be a beauty.

There was a thread raised by Jondavis in April 2019 about an OB21 version of the 19. Jacques made some comments on there about how to make that possible, and it sounded like it was very close to some additional frame drawings, and specs for extra glass to the hull and stringers being worked out, maybe they were? Does anyone know the status of the OB21 and if those additional specs were done?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=64101&hilit=OB21&start=10

If 70-90hp is recommended for the OB19, what would be the max hp / outboard weight you'd put on an OB21?

[OneWayTraffic]

An OB21 would be almost identical to the C21. Anything that works for that would be fine. I'd probably put a 115hp on it. Scaling is a pain though. The nesting gets all screwed up and you use a lot more of everything. There's also more opportunity to muck up with the maths.

What lakes are you going to be boating on? I don't think you said.