AD14 - Advantages vs

edt · Post by **edt** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:37 am

Hi,

I have built a B&B Birder II. I am now looking at building another boat.

I live in Montreal and am about 5 minutes from a boat launch. My garage will be the boats home. It will get used for evening/day sails and, once the boat and I understand each other overnighters (two adults). There are lots of great cruising locations within a couple of hours drive.

Space constraints limit me to something under 17. I have looked at quite a few designs the short list is down to (nothing implied by order):

Jarcat 15
Kingston 15 (Jon's Pocket Cruiser)
Sztrandek 4.95m
Paradox (see microcruisers)
Adelie 14

All these designs have some attractions. The Jarcat is probably more stable and will have more comfortable berths. The Sztrandek has nice lines. The Paradox is robust and uses chine runners to avoid the need for a center board. It also uses a 'pilot house' which, given the climate here, might be nice. I suspect that the Adelie will be easier to build though and designer support is easily available (big plus).

Comments?

JamesSloan · Post by **JamesSloan** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:48 am

Ed,

So far, I've built two Bateau boats and I've been quite happy with the plans detail, logical building tips, and (mostly) the information from this forum. I've also built a CMD boat that had an entire book to explain the building process. I think that you can't go wrong with the AD14 for all of these reasons.

I recently had a long discussion with the builder of a GlenL Minuet. He had nothing but priase for the build and the boat. All boating choices involve compromise tempered with a reality check. The fact that AD14 comes from Jaques/Bateau means, for my money, it will be much more likely to be started AND completed than many other designs. I must say that I was a little surpised at the plans cost, but it isn't out of line with the other Bateau sailboat prices. I'll probably order a set within the next month to start studying for a spring build.

I'm presently working on a full restoration of a 25 ft. Venture that will probably end up costing more and taking more time than building a VG23 from scratch...live & learn!

chrisobee · Post by **chrisobee** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 2:41 pm

edt wrote:I live in Montreal and am about 5 minutes from a boat launch. My garage will be the boats home. It will get used for evening/day sails and, once the boat and I understand each other overnighters (two adults). There are lots of great cruising locations within a couple of hours drive.

Sounds lovely. From the plans I would judge Adelie well suited to two adults. I remain skeptical about its two adults, two children capacity. Its certainly alot of boat for 14'.

LarryA · Post by **LarryA** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:45 pm

I have looked at all the plans you referenced in some detail except the Kingston (and obviously the AD14 which is new but I joined in the many threads that helped define her).

The Paradox is what its name says it is. Of the boats you referenced, it is the one I would be least likely to consider building. It has too many comprimises that I believe are undesireable. Since it has no external ballast, the sail area is small. The boat does not have a great shape and relies on the edges to reduce leeway, not any type of traditional board. Some amazing people have done some amazing things in those boats in the coastal cruising realm. But if you read all the reports, they all took time to pick the right days to sail the short distances they sailed, minimizing the chances of bad weather and conditions. For just a weekend excursion when you have to be back on Monday, that may not be optimal. As I recall, she is "self righting" because of water ballast on the bottom, which is also your drinking water, a bit risky in my mind.

The Sztrandek looks good on paper, the plans have been around a while but I don't know of any that have been built. It looks like it may be a good sailor but since no one has built one (at least not that I can find) I would be a bit leary. But again, on paper it looks good.

The Jarcat 5 would be a good choice if you can pick the conditions as well - although I would take a J5 long before a Paradox. She will probably be faster than any of the others so you can cover more ground with her. As a cat, she will offer much more space than a monohull mainly because she will carry her 8 foot beam further along the hull. She is a cat which gets you into the monohull versus cat debate, both have advantages and disadvantages. If you do a lot of light wind sailing, I would personally suggest avoiding the cat but that is my personal bias. As a cat, she can flip and once over, she is over for a while unless you add foam to the mast, CO2 cartidges or the likes - there are many good schemes to facilitate recovery.....

The AD14 has been several years in the making. Several of us purchased the plans to SDI which was on this site for some time and made suggestions as to how that design could be improved. Its attributes are well documented... At first blush, the kingston and the AD14 seem rather similar, about the same size, similar scantlings, roughly the same sail area and I would expect them to be similar in performance...

These of course are just my opinions. I am not a cat fan, so I have a bias, openly admitted.

chrisobee · Post by **chrisobee** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:54 pm

The Kingston 15 was disscussed When the AD14 was first proposed. I seem remember criticism of its system of balast and other items.

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:35 pm

JamesSloan wrote:I must say that I was a little surpised at the plans cost, but it isn't out of line with the other Bateau sailboat prices.

James,

I received my AD14 plans yesterday, and you definitely get what you pay for. They are very high quality and very complete. Just the amount of time and/or plywood that the nesting diagram alone will save you will probably pay for a large portion of the cost of the plans (though I know that we're not supposed to count our labor).

I definitely feel that I've gotten my money's worth, no regrets over the price here, and I highly recommend them. They're worth the price.

Laszlo

Post by **jacquesmm** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:59 pm

Compare the BOM of the Kingston with ours and you will see that the Kingston is a plywood boat covered with a little bit of epoxy while the AD14 is a fiberglass boat with a plywood core.
That's a major difference in strength.
The Kingston design also give priority to accomodations over sailing ability: much more windage. All that room inside looks good on paper but I don't think it is realistic in a 14 footer.

edt · Post by **edt** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:34 pm

Jacques,

Yes. I gathered that you are using something like the Vagabond construction. The simplified construction is a real plus. Three of the designs mentioned require strongback and frames to build. Your 'basket mold' is a real plus.

One question that I have not seen asked about the AD14. Where does one place the porta potty?

Larry,

Thanks for the detailed response. I also place the paradox near the bottom of my list, for different reasons though. Given the type of sailing I am apt to do there is little need for the major feature of the design - sailing from inside. On the other hand having a protected pilot house would probably gain me an extra couple of weeks of sailing... It would be interesting to see what would happen if AD14 cockpit was shortened by two feet or so and the area around the hatch raised into a pilot house type of arrangement... See http://www.boatbuilding.ws/SailPlan.htm for an idea of what I mean.

From what I have read Jarcats are not easy to flip and most Cat flipping issues happen with designs with sailplans that overpower the boats all to easily...

I have not been able to find anything about building or built Sztrandeks either - would be interested to read about experiences if anyone finds references.

Thanks

Laszlo · Post by **Laszlo** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:52 am

edt wrote:Jacques,One question that I have not seen asked about the AD14. Where does one place the porta potty?

Justin addressed that in one of his many thoughtful ramblings (and I mean that in the nicest possible way, like an unplanned journey of discovery) about the AD14 based on his years of experience as a sailor and as a VG20 builder. The thread is at:

http://forums.bateau2.com/phpBB2/viewto ... sc&start=0

Laszlo

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:37 pm

jacquesmm wrote:Compare the BOM of the Kingston with ours and you will see that the Kingston is a plywood boat covered with a little bit of epoxy while the AD14 is a fiberglass boat with a plywood core.
That's a major difference in strength.
The Kingston design also give priority to accomodations over sailing ability: much more windage. All that room inside looks good on paper but I don't think it is realistic in a 14 footer.

I'd like to set the record straight on the Kingston 15. I'm the one who built the CAD model of it, and I've spent many hours studying the plans as a result.

The boat is not a plywood boat with some epoxy -- it is fully sheathed on the outside with 10 oz glass. All the seams are taped on both sides. Its probably not as strong as the Bateau boats, but it isn't just plywood.

The ballast is inside the boat, under the floorboards in the center of the boat. If you look at the CAD image: http://www.huv.com/sailing/cadGallery/Cutaway-Top-2.jpg the wooden strip floorboards are over the area where the concrete/steel ballast is.

I can't say how well the boat sails, as I haven't built it yet, but I imagine the AD14 probably sails better.

- Jon

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