Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Share tips, suggest or request changes, anything that does not fit in the other categories.
Christer
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:40 am
Location: Norway

Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by Christer »

jacquesmm wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:41 pm How about setting a budget? Some of the large boats cost 5 times more to build than the small ones.
Then, pick a building method and material.
Some of those plans are 60 years old and designed fro old fashioned ply on frame.

Thank you so much for showing an interest, it means a lot.

I don't really know if that's feasible to set a budget, seeing as things cost a lot more over here in Norway than anywhere else, with the possible exception of Switzerland. Besides, I won't be buying everything at once but rather spread the purchases over time to afford it it all. In any case, once I've decided and am committed, I'll pay what it costs to see it through. Even it that gets me committed... :p

A 23' production boat which ticks most of the boxes for me with a 250HP Suzuki 4-stroke costs NOK1.1 million/USD132,000. The boxes it doesn't tick are light weight and fuel efficient - it weighs 4500kg and reaches 32 knots at WOT with said motor. They refuse to give me consumption numbers, which usually is a bad sign. The outboard alone with remote control, tacho and tilt meters, no trottle/gear cables, costs NOK260,000/USD32,000.

So.. I don't know. Is USD100,000 finished, on the water a realistic budget for a self built boat?

The outboard(s) will obviously be the single largest expense, but I'm not adverse to buying used provided the service history is good and the outboards are in good working order. I would prefer to get new ones, but buying new is... well, very expensive. I see twin outboards pop up for sale every now and then which look like good deals. No idea how it compares to the US, but here are some examples:

In August I found a pair of 2004 Yamaha 250s for sale for NOK83,000/USD9,950 for the pair, all cables and instruments included, as well as a binnacle remote control. Serviced at the dealership every year, 450-ish hours on them and were sold by the dealership for the customer with complete service booklet and 6 month warranty. I think they were 4-strokes, but can't really remember. The listing disappeared rather quickly...

In October a pair of 2017 Yamaha F350 4-strokes with all instruments popped up for NOK250,000/USD30,000 for the pair - 70 hours on both motors, recently serviced. List price of one is NOK370,000/USD44,500. These sold the same day the ad was posted.

I realize many of the designs I've looked at are old, and I'm guessing you're referring to the Hankinson designs. I don't know when he designed his power cats, but I found a build thread for the Wildcat E-X-T dated back in 1999, so I'm guessing it's at least 30 years old by now. I don't have any experience with building ply on frame, so I can't say anything about the build method (which is why I started my Build methods thread).

I really like the clean, straight lines on his cats and the walkaround cockpit. If I could get that in S&G plywood composite like you have designed your CT22, I would be a happy camper. I would love to build a CT22, but the immovable beam under the front bench bothers me - I would like a much smaller front deck (about half the size of how it's rendered), a rear-facing bench taking up the space left, and the designed bench I'd like removed completely. And I want the bow pointing forwards from the stems of the amas, not inwards. But that's easy enough to do while building.

I did a layer-on-layer drawing of the Glen-L Party Boat and the CT22 as they are the same length and width; this is the result:
partycat.png
partycat.png (137.98 KiB) Viewed 879 times
It uses the CT22 hull, the Party Boat's interior with some modifications. In front of the consoles there would be a split windscreen and a sliding door to close the pathway. I'd also have some kind of bars with a rigid or soft top to get out of the rain. There isn't a head drawn, that will be a bit of a headache to place with a layout like that, but shouldn't be impossible. I haven't shown the side view, but I would like a broken sheer line because I prefer that look, maybe something like the CS25 or the Bluejacket 24. I love the flair on the CS25's bow and would love to incorporate that as well, but I'm not sure if that would flow correctly. I'd also like slightly straighter stems and sterns like on the WildCat E-X-T Sport, but that too, I guess, can be done when building.

The hull (center section/bridge deck) was widened by 3". Now that I have an accurate measurement of my mooring berth's width, I wonder if the beam could be widened to 9' to give a bit of extra room.

There is storage in all seats and benches. Under the bow seats there will be a double floor where more stuff can be stored. Fuel tanks and bilge pumps also live down there. The head could possibly be fitted under one of the rearmost bow seats with a curtain or something for an illusion of privacy.

At least that's my fantasy... but, since the forward connecting beam can't be moved, this probably won't happen. And that was the sole reason I started actually looking at the Hankinson cats. That said, should you consider a re-do of the CT22 and that re-do happens to fall in line with what I just wrote, I would no longer have any reason not to buy the plans and build the boat...
8ft dinghy built in 1992, BBV sufferer ever since.

jacquesmm
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 28215
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by jacquesmm »

How about the GP21 deck boat:
https://bateau.com/studyplans/GP21_D_st ... rod=GP21_D
?
The dimensions are close. It has the max. beam for European towing, large capacity, easier to build and more economical than a cat. The plans are designed with the expectation that the builder will customize her.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://boatbuildercentral.com

Christer
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:40 am
Location: Norway

Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by Christer »

jacquesmm wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:57 pm How about the GP21 deck boat:
https://bateau.com/studyplans/GP21_D_st ... rod=GP21_D
?
The dimensions are close. It has the max. beam for European towing, large capacity, easier to build and more economical than a cat. The plans are designed with the expectation that the builder will customize her.
That is a good alternative, actually, but I think it looks a bit low, that is, has low freeboard. The C21 would perhaps be better with higher freeboard and could have its interior arranged similarly to the GP21_D?
8ft dinghy built in 1992, BBV sufferer ever since.

Fuzz
* Bateau Builder - Expert *
* Bateau Builder - Expert *
Posts: 8920
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:23 am
Location: Kasilof, Alaska

Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by Fuzz »

A couple of things to think about. First the girls want a enclosed head no matter what. If you want them to go with you this is a must.
I too have to deal with a little cool and wet weather :wink: You might be able to deal with being out in the elements but if you want others to go with you and be happy you will need a way to get out of the weather and stay warm. Heat is a big deal and you need to plan for it.
You have lots of boats to pick from and I wish you luck on finding what you want. I would look at all of them and if they do not check the head and heat boxes I would discard them. Just my opinion for what it is worth.

Christer
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:40 am
Location: Norway

Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by Christer »

Fuzz wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:22 pm A couple of things to think about. First the girls want a enclosed head no matter what. If you want them to go with you this is a must.
I too have to deal with a little cool and wet weather :wink: You might be able to deal with being out in the elements but if you want others to go with you and be happy you will need a way to get out of the weather and stay warm. Heat is a big deal and you need to plan for it.
Exactly. The dragon has given me permission to build a boat, but only if it has a head. We supposed to upgrade from one boat to the next, not move laterally. She's tired of running ashore when nature calls. No head, no building a boat. Simple as that.
Fuzz wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:22 pm You have lots of boats to pick from and I wish you luck on finding what you want. I would look at all of them and if they do not check the head and heat boxes I would discard them. Just my opinion for what it is worth.
Many of the designs I have looked at I have found not aesthetically pleasing or somehow "wrong" in other ways. I really, really would like an enclosed, lockable pilot house or large cabin, but I also want outside seating. I could perhaps make padded benches that fold into the gunwales, maximizing fishing space when needed and maximizing seating when needed.

That said, there are many designs that would allow a head, if even just a portable composting version, with some creativity. Privacy will be an issue in a smaller boat, and I feel 22' is borderline to accommodate this.

It might seem like I'm dismissing all monohulls and am dead set on a cat, which is partially true. I feel a cat hull will give better stability and more deck space and interior room in general, and the deeper hulls could also allow for more storage and also more headroom for a head. A cat with a full beam pilot house or tall-ish dual console would also provide the dry, warm seating required, while still having a bigger front deck/seating area for the (precious few) really warm days. If doing a dual console, the rear half or so of the boat would have rollup walls/windows to give shelter from the elements, as mentioned in a previous post.

I'm trying to cover all bases here, but the size restraints given wrt mooring limits the size of the boat quite drastically. I've been told that the max length of a boat allowed is 8 meters, but I do know that my brother had his 28ft/8.5m daycruiser moored at the same marina, and nobody lifted an eyebrow. So, while a longer boat than 22ft is possible, if I go for a cat hull, I'm not sure how well it would behave with a max beam of 9.5ft (any wider and I'm bound to run into problems trying to dock).

The Jazz 30 is big enough to do pretty much everything I want and seems to have almost unlimited customization options. If that could be shortened by 4' to 26ft and the beam reduced from 14' to 9.5', have a full front deck and still behave well, it would be a great boat for all I want it to do. I may have to email RIchard and ask for his opinion on that...

(This is where fallguy1000 usually chimes in and tells me to build the Skoota 24 and drop the aft cabin...)
8ft dinghy built in 1992, BBV sufferer ever since.

fallguy1000
* Bateau Builder - Expert *
* Bateau Builder - Expert *
Posts: 10198
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:25 am

Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by fallguy1000 »

The Glen L and the bateau cats will be soakers. No place to hide from sea spray, wind, or cold. They are not near shore designs, but fair weather lake boats.

You cannot shrink the Jazz 30 to 10 or 11' beam and have good results. The hulls are too long and wave interference a serious problem.

The C21 as drawn also offers no protection from the elements or place for a head, although it is probably big enough to modify. The CS also would need modification. While the bow flare would reduce sprays; the openness will not be nice in cooler weather. Many of the guys here are Florida builders and wouldn't leave the harbor on your warm days. My rule on Superior is I won't leave the harbor below 32F, but fishing season is open. Who wants ice on decks?

No temporary bimini is wise for your story.

The only boats the fit your sor as drawn are the

LB26 -ding is fuel economy and wasted space of cuddy for sleeping and the engine alone is going to cost like 25k there. It is a lovely boat, but not an easy build.

Skoota 24 (if you can reduce her beam a bit and ditch the gaudy kids aft cabin, that is a privacy cabin you know, I just don't know if the cabin can be removed or if structural benches are required instead, then the main cabin can be made bigger for a warmer salon). The thing to reconcile is where to put the motors to avoid turbulent water if you narrownthe beam. Email Richard. Modern motors might mount on the tilting hulls. A couple of decent engines and that displacement craft can get 30mph.

Bluejacket - they claim good fuel economy are they not a planing hull? Among the options; they look good, but they look like they'd roll a LOT.

The other boats I think would work are the Novi and the Downeasters.

You need to reconcile speed and fuel economy; you don't get both. Any planing hull is going to use more fuel.

Hope I don't offend anyone with my remarks.

I also think you need to pin down the beam more in your sor. Why have any 8'6" boats in the list if you can slip 10'6"? That is just silly, imo. I have to rent two slips for my boat at 16'6".
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

Christer
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:40 am
Location: Norway

Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by Christer »

There is also the Bear Cat Cuddy at Glen-L, which offers a hideous cuddy with sleeping accommodations for two. The cuddy can most likely both be redesigned into something aesthetically pleasing as well as enlarged - the boat is a massive 27'10" x 10', so there should be plenty of room left over.

Downside is that it's big, heavy, ply on frame and requires MOAR POWAR at the stern, but it would tick all the boxes otherwise. Then again, a pair of 100HP 4-strokes isn't hard to come by and would likely be sufficient power for what I'll use it for. There's also the option of building it shorter at 25'6" x 10'. WIth the same power, it should either go faster or more efficiently, depending on my mood and the conditions that day.

Picture:
Bearcat Cuddy.png
Bearcat Cuddy.png (64.1 KiB) Viewed 538 times
Last edited by Christer on Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
8ft dinghy built in 1992, BBV sufferer ever since.

Christer
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:40 am
Location: Norway

Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by Christer »

Good comments, thank you.
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:02 pm The Glen L and the bateau cats will be soakers. No place to hide from sea spray, wind, or cold. They are not near shore designs, but fair weather lake boats.
The Bateau CT22 is designed as an offshore fishing boat - though that doesn't in any way equate to a dry ride.
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:02 pm You cannot shrink the Jazz 30 to 10 or 11' beam and have good results. The hulls are too long and wave interference a serious problem.
But what if the hulls were shortened to 25-26ft? Kinda redundant question, really; it would probably not make any difference, and the whole boat would need to be redesigned - which leads to the Skoota 24, which I don't like...
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:02 pm The C21 as drawn also offers no protection from the elements or place for a head, although it is probably big enough to modify. The CS also would need modification. While the bow flare would reduce sprays; the openness will not be nice in cooler weather. Many of the guys here are Florida builders and wouldn't leave the harbor on your warm days. My rule on Superior is I won't leave the harbor below 32F, but fishing season is open. Who wants ice on decks?

No temporary bimini is wise for your story.
The CX25 with full transom, engine bracket and a better looking cabin could work. That leaves enough room at the rear with the possibility of fold-up benches and the necessary amenities inside. It requires quite a bit of power and dinosaur juice to move, however.
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:02 pm The only boats the fit your sor as drawn are the

LB26 -ding is fuel economy and wasted space of cuddy for sleeping and the engine alone is going to cost like 25k there. It is a lovely boat, but not an easy build.
Yeah, I'll keep dreaming about this one, but will likely never build her.
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:02 pm Skoota 24 (if you can reduce her beam a bit and ditch the gaudy kids aft cabin, that is a privacy cabin you know, I just don't know if the cabin can be removed or if structural benches are required instead, then the main cabin can be made bigger for a warmer salon). The thing to reconcile is where to put the motors to avoid turbulent water if you narrownthe beam. Email Richard. Modern motors might mount on the tilting hulls. A couple of decent engines and that displacement craft can get 30mph.
From various posts in forums here and there, the aft cabin can be removed if the remaining structure is strengthened somewhat. The folding mechanism will still steal deck space, which is part of the reason I don't like it. I also saw your questions about the Jazz and Skootas over at Richard's forum; it would be interesting to read his reply to the questions in your final post in that thread. He came back at the end and said he'd replied via email.
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:02 pm Bluejacket - they claim good fuel economy are they not a planing hull? Among the options; they look good, but they look like they'd roll a LOT.
It's a planing hull with wide reverse chines at the stern, which gives it more lift and keeps it mostly level throughout the speed range. From his tale of the storm he got caught in, I'm convinced it's a solid and safe boat, but the fact he had to slow down to a crawl kinda makes me want to drop it from the list. They do look good, though.
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:02 pm The other boats I think would work are the Novi and the Downeasters.
Both seem to fall into the same box as the Bluejacket, honestly.. about the same length and width, similar hull styles...
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:02 pm You need to reconcile speed and fuel economy; you don't get both. Any planing hull is going to use more fuel.
I know... Why couldn't Richard design the Jazz 30 as a 26x10' boat instead of 30x14'? That would have solved all my problems. :p
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:02 pm I also think you need to pin down the beam more in your sor. Why have any 8'6" boats in the list if you can slip 10'6"? That is just silly, imo. I have to rent two slips for my boat at 16'6".
As I noted in the previous post, there's also the Glen-L Bear Cat Cuddy.
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:02 pm Hope I don't offend anyone with my remarks.
None taken! This kind of discussion is great - it gives me a bit of reality check and options I may not have considered pop up. Much obliged.

Big thanks to all who participate! Maybe we can even come up with the Ultimate Boat That Does Everything Fast And With Much Fuel Efficiency(tm)? :)
8ft dinghy built in 1992, BBV sufferer ever since.

User avatar
BarraMan
* Bateau Builder - Expert *
* Bateau Builder - Expert *
Posts: 2164
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:44 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by BarraMan »

Christer wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:37 pm There is also the Bear Cat Cuddy at Glen-L, which offers a hideous cuddy with sleeping accommodations for two. The cuddy can most likely both be redesigned into something aesthetically pleasing as well as enlarged - the boat is a massive 27'10" x 10', so there should be plenty of room left over.
Downside is that it's big, heavy, ply on frame and requires MOAR POWAR at the stern, but it would tick all the boxes otherwise. Then again, a pair of 100HP 4-strokes isn't hard to come by and would likely be sufficient power for what I'll use it for. There's also the option of building it shorter at 25'6" x 10'. WIth the same power, it should either go faster or more efficiently, depending on my mood and the conditions that day.
Picture:
Bearcat Cuddy.png
I tell myself NOT to get involved in this discussion - yet I keep getting drawn to it.

You seem to prefer the cats, but have you ever driven a power cat? They are quite different to handle, and like most boats they are great in some areas and poor in others.

For what its worth, I think the Bearcat Cuddy would be a "dog" with 100 hp per side! A similar size Kevlacat that I know is running twice that.

Christer
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:40 am
Location: Norway

Re: Christer's planning-to-build-a boat-at-some-point thread

Post by Christer »

BarraMan wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:28 am
Christer wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:37 pm There is also the Bear Cat Cuddy at Glen-L, which offers a hideous cuddy with sleeping accommodations for two. The cuddy can most likely both be redesigned into something aesthetically pleasing as well as enlarged - the boat is a massive 27'10" x 10', so there should be plenty of room left over.
Downside is that it's big, heavy, ply on frame and requires MOAR POWAR at the stern, but it would tick all the boxes otherwise. Then again, a pair of 100HP 4-strokes isn't hard to come by and would likely be sufficient power for what I'll use it for. There's also the option of building it shorter at 25'6" x 10'. WIth the same power, it should either go faster or more efficiently, depending on my mood and the conditions that day.
Picture:
Bearcat Cuddy.png
I tell myself NOT to get involved in this discussion - yet I keep getting drawn to it.

You seem to prefer the cats, but have you ever driven a power cat? They are quite different to handle, and like most boats they are great in some areas and poor in others.

For what its worth, I think the Bearcat Cuddy would be a "dog" with 100 hp per side! A similar size Kevlacat that I know is running twice that.
I have never driven a cat, no. I just like them because they're different and not something everyone else has. There is much praise about their seakeeping properties - softer ride, less slamming/jerky movement, better tracking, better maneuverability, more interior space, etc.

The obvious downsides are that you're practically building three boats at once - two hulls and the center section, they require two of everything which costs more, the width can be restrictive wrt areas one can get into, transportation on land and of course, mooring.

The Glen-L blurb on the BCC regarding power is as follows:

Recommended total HP (Twin outboards, 25" shaft required) 180-450
These longer, wider power cats allow greater displacement, tankage, storage, and load-carrying ability than our WILDCAT design. Besides the extra room, the wider beam only improves upon the superior qualities of power cats, especially stability. Based on v-bottom planing hulls, these boats can also absorb higher horsepower motors. Twin outboards at the higher ratings can provide speed into the 50 MPH range. Even at the minimum power ratings, planing speeds will range in the mid-to-upper 20's depending on all-up weight.


That's my reasoning for the twin 100's. They are also easily found in good used condition. 115's and 150's are also readily available, but at that power point fuel cost may start becoming an issue. Note that the numbers are for the 28' version. If I build the 25.5' version, it should be a bit lighter and should perform a bit better with twin 100's. Maybe.

I'm not familiar with the KevlaCat, but I assume it's a fibreglass production boat with Kevlar reinforcements? My take is that production boats are about twice as heavy as they need to be; re: my example of the locally made 23' production boat weighing 4.5 metric tons dry.

I think the BearCat will be way too much boat, honestly. The WildCat EXT Cuddy in 24' is likely a better choice, with the beam increased by 1'.

Or, if I could talk Jacques into redesigning the CT22 for me like the PartyCat I pictured earlier, that'd be sweet. :)
8ft dinghy built in 1992, BBV sufferer ever since.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests