PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Questions and Answers about the Woods Designs, multihulls and others.
SLRS
New Poster
New Poster
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:56 pm
Location: Whitehall, MI, USA

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Post by SLRS »

Browndog, I pretty much agree with you and I like the used boat idea...if what I wanted was available.

Also, this would not be my first boat. I have built a few as well as many airplanes. Generally I find that when people ask "how long did that take to build?", I think they are asking the wrong question. The time spent building is for me as enjoyable as using it and therefore, the question is just wrong. It implies that there is something negative about investing time to create something that is exactly what you want. Like a floating camp site. So, I understand that there is a significant investment, both in time and monetarily, but sometimes I would rather invest my time and money than to pay someone else to have all the fun. Besides, this boat, while being large dimensionally, is not really all that complicated a project. I have worked on from 747's to Rolexes, biplanes to barges. This is totally doable.

Also, before anyone else mentions the dangers of cold water, I grew up in Michigan, have lived in Minnesota (MUCH colder) and have swam in ice water. After about a minute in really cold water, you are not able to rescue yourself.

I have seen pontoons on the ocean, and while I would not be interested in taking on large waves and even larger swells, it is done more times than some realize. I think the key is having enough wisdom to know when to stay in a safe refuge, how to check the weather, knowing your equipment, knowing your route. etc.



fallguy1000
Very Active Poster
Very Active Poster
Posts: 7912
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:25 am

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Post by fallguy1000 »

Typically, hull construction dictates.

If a designer is concerned about people launching off the surf, for example, they would say the boat is for inland use, because they didn't design in pound the hull to hell safety factors into the hulls and skins, stringers, and bulkheads.

All boats are designed for certain requirements.

If the planing cat has twin 90s, it clearly is not designed for any major offshore plans. A powercat like the Skootas with canoe hulls and significantly wider beams do not need the 90s, but they are designed for offshore to 20 miles. They, for example, are not considered blue water boats either.

What a designer generally does in the design process is determines planned use and then also applies safety margins.

It is very possible the pontoon cat simply does not have the structure or safety margins for offshore poundings. That doesn't mean it can't handle 2-4 foot seas, but it does mean it was not designed for offshore use.

This is one of those times when you can look at the plans and they clearly tell you if the design is for offshore use.

The problem with all boats is someone always gets the notion they can use a boat not equipped for certain waters 'if they are careful'. But conditions dictate, not care.

In my small skiff, for example, I would not drive 16 miles out onto Lake Superior. One tournament weekend, 2019 actually, the fish were all out at 16. But I refused to take my boat out that far. Why? Even in flat weather, the big lake can change quickly, a storm can come up and if I have to go in quickly, my skiff can only go about 5mph in the stew. Or 28 tops. So, it is about half hour out, or 3 hours in the stew. Thst is a long, awful trip. Many things can go wrong. Water temps during the tournament were low 50s. Survival in that water is limited to a couple hours.

If the designer says the boat is not suited for offshore; it is because it was not designed for it.
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

fallguy1000
Very Active Poster
Very Active Poster
Posts: 7912
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:25 am

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Post by fallguy1000 »

What about the offshore designs?
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

SLRS
New Poster
New Poster
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:56 pm
Location: Whitehall, MI, USA

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Post by SLRS »

I found this to be relevant: EC24 - How not for offshore is it?

Actually, I am less concerned about large waves and bad weather (because I will not be out in it), than I am of having a wall tent semi permanently erected on deck acting like a drone chute or a wind vane. I am drawn to efficiency, but can see that wind resistance will eventually be a problem for my plans. The more speed, and depending on wind direction, the bigger an issue...unless going downwind...

SLRS
New Poster
New Poster
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:56 pm
Location: Whitehall, MI, USA

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Post by SLRS »

fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:46 pm What about the offshore designs?
[/quot

The answer to that is pretty simple. I don't find any offshore designs that interest me, and why would I need an offshore design anyway? Offshore implies bad weather and high seas. Something I would never be involved in anyway. Very frustrated that this has turned into a "unless it is glass smooth, this design is way out of the intended design parameters". I can't even ask a simple question as I am first required to defend my intentions all because of the word "offshore".

fallguy1000
Very Active Poster
Very Active Poster
Posts: 7912
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:25 am

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Post by fallguy1000 »

SLRS wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:09 am
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:46 pm What about the offshore designs?
[/quot

The answer to that is pretty simple. I don't find any offshore designs that interest me, and why would I need an offshore design anyway? Offshore implies bad weather and high seas. Something I would never be involved in anyway. Very frustrated that this has turned into a "unless it is glass smooth, this design is way out of the intended design parameters". I can't even ask a simple question as I am first required to defend my intentions all because of the word "offshore".
When shopping for a boat, you develop a statement of requirements. Sometimes this is done more or less eloquently.

Your frustration is that the designer said the boat designs are not suited for ocean crossings which are needed for the Great Loop.

I bought the LB26 plans years ago. After staring at the plans a few months, I decided it was a bit small to do the Inside Passage and shelved the idea. I did love the design, but not the idea of bobbing in 5 foot seas.

The forum members here all like boats. And we like to see builds. But finding the right boat is an important step. If the designer tells you to pass on these two for a loop boat, reconsider other options. Like I said earlier, the DE25 is a faster build, less expensive to power, better accomodations for the loop. Or if you wanted more of a cuddy boat, the carolina series would also work as a minimalist loop boat.

If you are after fuel economy, the Skoota series could work. Even the 20 footer could be a minimalist loop boat.

Have you ever been in a place where the seastate changed rapidly? In my skiff, I came around an island face and the waves went from one foot to about 7 footers. It was easy, I turned around, but doing a passage in a boat with minimal forward freeboard is also a problem. I would say that boat these boats you are asking about may not fair well in fast 7 footers. It isn't just operator error. Typically on Superior, waves pick up after lunch. If you leave port and head into the wind; you can return on following seas, but it is a bit scary when they build up above 4', even well timed.

If the designer says not the right boat; accept it and move on. His financial interest is selling plans. If he just says it'd work fine; he has a greater chance of selling you a plan. His integrity here is exceptional.

Sometimes best friends tell you no.
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

jacquesmm
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 28009
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Post by jacquesmm »

People have crossed oceans in/on kayaks, inflatable dinghies and SUP's. That does not make those watercrafts offshore boats.
I sailed small, open boats offshore when I was young and took crazy risks but I can not recommend that. An EC24 may very well survive bad weather in a Great Lakes or Gulf of Mexico storm but it is not guaranteed and it will certainly not be fun.

I am liable for that type of recommendation and must say that those boats are not designed for your program.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://boatbuildercentral.com

OneWayTraffic
* Bateau Builder *
* Bateau Builder *
Posts: 1298
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:13 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Post by OneWayTraffic »

Perhaps it would be helpful if you enumerate a more exact statement of purpose for the boat. Maximum size you can build/trailer, requirements in use, nice to haves and so on. At the moment you've said Mississipi, Great lakes and possibly Great loop. How far off in the lakes are you planning to go? By Great loop are you planning to do the whole thing or just some of it? What is it that attracts you to a cat? Keep in mind that some designs lend themselves to modifications, which may make a boat more or less seaworthy. For example I'm putting side benches in my C17 that will double as flotation pontoons.

jacquesmm
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 28009
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Post by jacquesmm »

They lack rigidity, the hulls can twist in relationship to each other. I can not do anything about that in the design unless I draw a thick deck, several inches high. I try to alleviate that twisting by using cross beams with a fat section and epoxy welding them to hull and deck. This makes my pontoon boats more able than the plain Al tube pontoons but is not perfect. Once you add a high deck or a cabin, you have a girder that will stiffen the structure. That is why the Skoota's are better suited for this program.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://boatbuildercentral.com

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests