Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Hello everyone -

I have decided to launch into a project to build a D5 dinghy and equip it with a sailing rig.

I have literally zero boat-building or wood-working experience so this will hopefully be a good resource for any future landlubbers looking to build their first boat whose expectations are, like mine, reasonably tempered. I’ve been sailing quite a bit (admittedly most of it 20 years ago), but I have very few tools, almost no skills and I have never said the phrase “Lie Nielsen” without “Les” in front of it - primarily when discussing the Naked Gun movies.

I purchased the D5 plans, the CNC routed kit and the Silvertip epoxy package so I’ve made things as easy as possible for me, although I still expect them to be extremely and almost insurmountably difficult. I’ve read all the D5 threads, I read Devlin’s book on stitch-and-glue boatmaking and I’ve cleared out the moderately sized workshop behind my house that I have heretofore been using exclusively for storing bikes and camping equipment. See workshop with boat parts in the box on the left:



A little about me - I’m in Dallas, Texas and I have a wife and an eleven year-old daughter who are eager to help me with this process. I mean, at this point they are when it’s still only 98 degrees outside. We’ll see how excited they are in August.

So the first thing to do is clearly unpack the pieces and start the stitching process. So out of the gate I have just a couple questions I was hoping the experts here could answer:

1. Do I build it right side up or upside down? Devlin is a big advocate of doing it upside down by setting the bulkheads on a jig of some kind and building the hull of the boat on top of that so you don’t have to try to fight to fit the bulkheads into the already built boat. It does seem like this way has some advantages but most of the builds I see on these forums of the D5 are right side up. Thoughts? If it’s upside down I have to build a jig? That seems like a project unto itself. How do I know if I have the bulkheads in the right places?

2. Question on stitching. Is everyone on board with zipties? They sure do seem easier but I know there are a lot of people who still push for using the electric fence wire. Is it harder to get the zipties out at that stage? Why do people still use the wire?

3. And my biggest question at this point — what do I need to worry about now if i want to make this a sailing vessel. Honestly the part of this that I find the most intimidating is the daggerboard because (a) those pieces aren’t in the CNC kit so I actually have to make the daggerboard and the daggerboard trunk (and the tiller) from scratch, and (b) it seems Iike I am voluntarily making a hole in my boat and I have no idea how to make sure that water doesn’t leak in. I understand people weight the daggerboard to keep it down, but how on earth do you keep the seal tight enough? Anyway - my main question is do I need to worry about any of that now or do I just build the boat and then put in the mast step and the daggerboard at the end? I think I need to split a seat in half to put the daggerboard trunk in there - do I cut one of the seat boards in half and do it that way? This is the one part for which there doesn’t seem to be much help online and I am mystified. What else do I need to know before I start this thing if I’m going to make it a sailboat? There are sailboat plans that come with it but they’re not super illustrative.

3b - do I need to cut the transom to make room for the rudder before I put it on the boat? I do, right?

I have a ton more questions that I’m sure I will continue to have as I progress: I plan on loading this thing up with foam where I can - do I put in drains? What exactly is fairing compound - is that in addition to the epoxy and the glass? Do I put rubrails on this thing; it’s not in the plans?

So if you’re reading this in the summer of 2024 — Help me!! If you’re reading this in the future, then skip to the last page to see how successful this thing turned out to be, and hopefully this can be a guide for other boatbuilding newbies looking to get their start.

Thanks in advance for all your wisdom and indulgence.

First thing is to study the plans and building notes. Devlin's book is a great read but his designs and build process differ somewhat from Bateau. Zip ties work fine. Upside/rightside down matters less with the D5 as you can flip it at will. Read some of the relevant tutorials in this site first. Study other D5 builder threads. Figure out how to post pictures. You can absolutely do this.

Dougster

Pokeydonut,

Welcome to the Forum. Just as Dougster said, look through the tutorials, read through other build threads, and study the plans. Most of your questions will be answered. I also highly encourage you to keep asking questions and post a lot of pictures on your build thread as you progress through your build.
The plans actually have a nice assembly diagram on page B229/5. I would follow this diagram.
Side note: open up your CNC kit. There is a CNC nesting diagram inside that shows each sheet of plywood in the kit. You will see the daggerboard, daggerboard trunk sides, and rudder have been cut for you (Sheet H4).

Good luck,
Reid

Hey welcome to the forum. You will find mostly helpful and friendly folks here. I know nothing about building sail boats but I know a little about boat building in general. Read the building notes 3-4 times. Most answers are there. Learn to post pictures. Pictures both get more interest and help folks better understand. While it is nice to have a handle on the whole project from the beginning it is not a must have. Take it one step at a time and let the guys help you when you need it.

1. Ignore everything that isn’t in the build notes. Put down the Delvin and all other external sources. Just do what the actual designer tells you to do. If you get stuck in the build bites, THEN AND ONLY THEN look at outside resources.

2. Because people are stupid? The only reason to use wire for one of the BBC designs would be that the tensile strength of the zip tie is inadequate. If you get to that point stop… you did something wrong. Backup and figure out what is wrong and you’ll be back to zip tie. Normally the problem is that you over tightened a different zip tie too soon.

3. Overthinking. That’s the problem. We all do it. Just read the build notes, and plan your steps including the sailing specific steps. This isn’t rocket science and unlike with normal build methods, you can undo mistakes. Plus you have the cnc kit so you won’t make any.

I highly recommend just going slow and making your plan. You have all the information and base materials. This isn’t a convoluted “do it wrong and it’s over” type thing. Just read the notes and follow the plan and you’ll get sailing before you know it.

Thank you to everyone for your replies. Good news about the daggerboard and box being in the CNC kit!

One quick question - what are the “builder notes” you all refer to? Is that the Assembly Schedule on B229/3 “Assembly Schedule & Lamination Schedule”?

Reid - is that the page you’re talking about? I don’t have a B229/5; I have a D229/5 but that’s the Sail Plan.

I now see that the Construction page (D229/2) shows the distances between the bulkheads so that’s helpful. I will break out the CNC pieces and see if I can figure out where everything goes. The sail plans indicate that the daggerboard trunk goes between the midship frames so I’ll figure that out down the road (presumably this involves cutting the Mid Seat Top in half).

Pictures to come!

Ah! I went back and found the PDF files I downloaded when I first conceived of this plan in 2019 and found the builders notes!! I will read these carefully multiple times before I ask any more questions!

A few notes from a D5 sail version builder:

1) Getting a seal between the dagger board and the box is a non issue, since the top of the box is well above the water line. You don't want the fit to be super tight here since you want installation and removal of the dagger board to be easy.

2) I found it helpful to complete the dagger board prior to building the dagger board box. This way if the dagger board ends up a little thick due to coats of epoxy (or if you glassed it as I did), you can adjust for that when building the box, and not end up with a dagger board that is too thick to fit down the box.

3) I put a layer of glass on the inside of the dagger board box pieces prior to assembling them. This is not necessary, but since that area is difficult to touch up after assembly, I felt this would give me the best longevity and resistance to wear.

4) The D5 was not my first stitch and glue build, but I did find trying to assemble the boat without a jig to be an exercise in frustration. Your mileage may vary, but I found that assembling upside down on a simple jig made of 2x6 lumber helped me to get the relationships between the frames correct. Once stitched, IIRC I then removed it from the jig, placed it on a pair of sawhorses right side up, and after blocking it up into correct alignment, I "tack welded" with putty between the stitches. After the tacks cured I removed the stitches and proceeded as per the build instructions.

OK. I have cut out all the pieces from the CNC-cut plywood kit and sanded the edges to get rid of the little knobs that held them in place (like plastic airplane model pieces).

Here’s my understanding of the next step from the builders notes:

1. Drill holes for the zip ties in the sides where they meet the bow, the transom and the hull - but not the inner frames and of course not the top edge
2. Upside down, find the location of the midframe (as per the plans) and screw the sides to it with screw i can take out later
3. Then attach the bow and transom via zipties
3.5 Then attach all the other inner frames via temporary screws as well? And just judge distances based on the plans? Is that right - I’m a little fuzzy on this step
4. Drill holes in all four side of both hull pieces
5. Connect the two sides of the hull together via zipties
6. Open like a book, and put on top of the sides
7. Ziptie the long edges of the hulls to the sides
8. Zipties the short edges of the hulls to the bow and transom

I have a few question:

1. Do I give everything a coat of epoxy first? Someone online did that but it’s not mentioned anywhere. Is it easier to put on this first coat before starting to build?
2. When do i cut a notch in the transom for the tiller/rudder? Before i attach it?
3. Does it matter how I screw these frames in. Just long wood screws that I can easily remove? No concern about holes because I’ll eventually fill them?

I will figure out how to post pictures of the pieces.

Thanks!

Adam

Also - do I bevel the edges before I ziptie them together so that they meet in a perfect 45 degree angle? That’s in the Devlin book but nowhere in the building notes and I have no idea how I’d do that.

Welcome to the forum!! Congrats on taking the first step. And congratulate yourself too, because you're going to be a happier human being in a few months. You *will* have built your own boat.

I found the Boat Builder Central tutorial very useful - Stitch and Glue 101. Different boat, same process.

https://boatbuildercentral.com/tutorials/

I *almost* built the D5 sailing version. I may still build one, one day. Looking forward to following your progress.

GOOD LUCK!

Mick

OK. Despite a lot of open questions, I plunged ahead. I didn’t bevel any edges, i just went ahead and ziptied the hull halves together.

Then I drilled holes in the sides and the transoms (the bulder’s notes say 4” apart and the Sitch and Glue 101 tutorial says 10” apart so i split the difference) and ziptied everything loosely together. Then I set up Frame B in the middle and since all my screws were too wide I nailed it in loosely where it belongs according to the plans. Then I tightened the zipties in the bow and the transom to curve the sides. Then I set up the other frames but I had to screw those in because the curved wood didn’t want to naturally connect with the frames. In other words the distance from side to side was a little wider than the frames so I needed to screw them in to narrow the shape. Anyway, here’s where I ended up:









It’s starting to look like a boat! That was quick. So I still need to put in Frame A and then attach the hull via zip ties. Then I’m going out of town for a few weeks so I’ll let the wood just come to shape. And then in July I’ll start epoxying seams on the outside, and then I flip it over and finalize where the frames go. That part seems pretty serious - seat tops and daggerboard trunks won’t fit right if they’re angled wrong. Haven’t quite figured out how to do that yet.

Have I committed any grievous errors so far? Also - can everyone see pictures?

… also, I decided that my transom came pre-notched for the tiller since it has a 3” “valley” as compared to a straight arc. Reid - is that true? If not, I’ll have to cut it already attached to the rest of the boat…

That's looking good, nice progress! I'm not familiar with the construction of the D5, so I won't be able to help with your questions, but between the tutorials and other D5 build threads most or all of your questions should be already answered.

I'm a bit worried about screwing the sides to the frames. Make sure the side curves are fair (smooth) after screwing them to frames. The frames often don't fit exactly when the panels are stiched up because every plywood has its own mind when bending. You can easily adjust the frames to fit later. Half inch gaps are nothing, then can be easily filled with epoxy/wood flour mix. The important thing is that the curves of the panels are smooth (fair).

Dougster

Pokeydonut wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 2:46 pm Also - do I bevel the edges before I ziptie them together so that they meet in a perfect 45 degree angle? That’s in the Devlin book but nowhere in the building notes and I have no idea how I’d do that.

As Jaysen said earlier, forget Devlin's book; put it away until such time as you decide to build one of his boats. He makes very nice boats for the most part, but his methods are different from the ones required to construct the boats on this site. All the info you need should be in the tutorials here. There's no reason whatsoever to bevel the edges of the panels where they meet; that's a complete waste of time. The gap will be filled with the putty which becomes part of the structure.

Pokeydonut wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:22 pm … also, I decided that my transom came pre-notched for the tiller since it has a 3” “valley” as compared to a straight arc. Reid - is that true? If not, I’ll have to cut it already attached to the rest of the boat…

Yeah, sounds like. I will try to dig up a photo of mine showing that area and post it here.

I also found it helpful to lightly screw the side panels to the frames, but as Dougster mentioned, you have to be very careful so that they don't pull the panels out of fair, or put a curve into the frames.

These pictures show the curve in the transom of the sailing version:

Nice work!! Jeff

Very nice you will enjoy that. Tom

Progress!

I have taken everyone’s advice and ignored the Devlin book and pressed on with the plans.

I have now ziptied everything together. As people warned, when I try to go back and fit the frames back into the boat at the exact distances specified in the plans they don’t always fit exactly where they’re supposed to but it’s pretty close. These are pictures with the frames very close to where they belong and as you can see the seat tops fit well so it can’t be that far off.

So there are a couple gaps here and there but that’s why God created epoxy and wood flour, right?







So next steps:

The instructions say to “stitch or tape all sides, tighten the keel stitches” and then “flip the hull over and build the seams.”

My understanding was that I’m supposed to epoxy seam the outside seams first and then flip the boat and then epoxy the seams from the inside. But this makes it sound like maybe I’m supposed to just tighten all the stitches and then start epoxy on the inside. So which is it - epoxy seam the outside upside down first or flip it and epoxy seam the inside first?

And to be clear, I am doing the seams between the zipties and then after those are done I’m cutting off the zipties and doing where the zipties were right?

Also, what about “plywood saturation”? Am I supposed to just paint this thing with the epoxy first to saturate the plywood? That seems to be the next step but again, I’m not sure if I should start with the bottom/outside or the inside.

Also, before I get too far down the road here, should I start worrying about whether this boat is “fair” or symmetrical? How would I test that?

Please provide some direction here before I go down the wrong road. Very excited to start the sticky slop portion of this adventure!

Wish my shop/work area was that clean. {but nobody to blame but myself}

You are doing nice work.

Jbo

This is a picture that shows two troubling trends:

1. My man-boob sweat during a Texas summer, and
2. The fact that my middle frames are hovering over the bottom of the boat

I’m hoping that at least one of these problems can be solved with epoxy and tape.

As long as the bottom is fair those little gaps are no problem at all. You can fill way bigger gaps than those with epoxy putty and glass.
About the man boobs...............you ain't old enough to really know what they are

I believe this is the stage where you want to be sure things are fair and not out of square. Once you start gluing seams it's a done deal. Yes to the neat epoxy before glue/epoxy putty. You probably want to tape the underside of the seams before using the epoxy putty, so it stays where it is needed. It sounds like you have read the tutorials and want to double check before you proceed, that's good.

That excerpt from the instructions is odd sounding, why would you tape the seams and then tighten the stitches? At any rate, it sounds like you have a good idea of how to go about it, and it is looking good right now. What I can see in the photo looks fair, just take some time to get other views of the hull panels and be sure they look good. Have fun!

Maybe stick some nails or popsicle sticks in between the panels in the tight places along the panel seams to ensure a gap all along the way. We try to avoid wood on wood there because folks say it causes "hard spots". It's easy enough to ease in some kind of spacer here and there, then tighten the zip ties.

I left my hull upside down, crawled under and put pacing tape along the seams to prevent epoxy oozing through, then wood flouw/epoxy between the zip ties, let harden, cut off ties, and fill in the rest. Your hull sure looks good to me.

Dougster

Looks like you're past this, but I also struggled to get the frames in the right positions/orientation just stitching everything together. I ended up making this jig to get the frames located as per the plans dimensions:



IIRC, I attached the sides with screws, then stitched the bottoms in place. Once it was all stitched or screwed, I removed the boat from the jig, flipped it rightside up on sawhorses, and then proceeded as normal. Blocked it all up and adjusted to square, then tack welded between the stitches.

OK, I think I got it. I love the idea of putting packing tape under the seams so the epoxy doesn’t drip through the seams.

I take “Yes to neat epoxy” to mean that I should paint the bottom with epoxy before starting to tack weld the seams.

One important question - how do I know if the boat is “fair” and square? Measure from different points to make sure it’s symmetrical? I’m not really clear on what I’m looking here for.

And thank you for the advice on the jig. But yes, that ship has sailed, as it were.

“Square” means measurements should be the same across diagonal corners.

“Fair” means your eyes only see pleasing and uniform curves when you look down any given length of the boat - no odd bulges or dips.

Jbo

OK. I went ahead and decided to do the inside seams first with the boat right side up. That’s what the building instructions said so I decided to go with them.

My process was as follows:

- I used the JB Weld five minute quick setting epoxy between the zip ties to tack weld the wood
- Twenty minutes later I cut the zip ties and the wood immediately laughed at the quick set epoxy and more or less separated but more or less stayed where they needed to because of the rest of the boat
- I mixed the silvertip epoxy resin and hardener and used a foam brush to paint it around the seam. But did I get it on the inside of those pieces? Probably not.
- I mixed the System 3 SilverTip EZ-Fillet Kit and tried the frosting bag method but in the end relied more on the popsicle stick method. I didn’t take pictures but I thought my fillets looked pretty good.
- I made a new batch of epoxy resin, since the first batch had hardened and kind of melted the thin plastic cup it was in, cut a fiberglass strip, soaked it in the epoxy resin, and then placed it down the seam
- Then I used the air bubble tool to smooth out the fiberglass which honestly I thought I did a really good job at
- I cut out some peel ply and put it down and let everything cure for 24 hours and ripped off the peel ply









So not exactly shipshape, but I think technically sealed? Is this something I can fix with sanding? Is this just too awful to deal with and I need to redo it somehow? Is that even a thing I can do? Should I put another layer of something on?

Questions:

How do you all measure this stuff? I’m putting it in the plastic measuring cups from Home Depot but obviously those become totally useless after one use. Am I missing something? Also I put it in those disposable plastic paint mixing cups but those buckled and bent after it started getting hot and smoky.

Also definitely nothing in all the books and videos and forum posts I read prepared me for exactly how hot and fumey this stuff gets. I feel like everyone glosses over that. It is 103 degrees in Dallas so maybe that doesn’t help but man, you have to move quick and get it out because the mass of it gets hardened fast. Maybe my ratios were off - it’s hard to measure the already peanut buttery EZ-Fillet kit by volume.

What does everyone else do for tack welding? Am I really supposed to mix this stuff, go between the zipties, mix it again, cut the zipties and then do the whole seam? I’m not really clear on the tack welding part of this process. Since I know you’re supposed to put the fiberglass on when the fillet is still wet, I don’t think I’m supposed to do two rounds of fillets but I’m not really sure.

Any other advice? I realize one’s first seam is never perfect so I’m just trying to get some perspective on this one.

Thanks!

103 is pretty hot for any epoxy. You may want to do some things to cool your resin at least before mixing. You can keep it in the air conditioned house. That helps. A step further is keeping it “iced” in a cooler. Getting it out of the cup and into a wider surface to dissipate heat is also key. Don’t think you can do anything but use that batch once it’s mixed. There will be no multi-tasking.

Sorry to say, but that joint should be ground out and redone. Looks like you may have been stingy on filet material. The tape should lay right on it. That white is a clear sign you didn’t get contact.

Leave the JB weld at the hardware store. It’s not the epoxy you need. For glue, mix your BBC epoxy and enough wood flour/silica to make a stiff mix and use that.

If you’ll leave a popsicle stick in those containers and tip them sideways so that any residual runs down onto the stick, a lot of times once it’s fully cured, you can just pull all the epoxy out with the stick and re-use the cup.

Jbo

I agree with jbo_c, but I can't tell from the photos if you need to tear off the glass you put down or can salvage the work. Do it as soon as possible if you are going to do it.

For getting same size batches of epoxy measured reliably, I use clear solo cups and a process I got from other builders here: get one cup and that will be your master cup, drop another cup into it (stay with the same exact cups). Decide how big a batch of epoxy you will be making and measure half that amount of water and pour it into the cup. Mark the level of the water on the master cup with a sharpie. Add the same amount of water again to the cup (that represents both resin and hardener) and again mark the level on the outer cup. For reference you can note how many ounces that will total, but to use it you will simply drop a new cup into the master and carefully pour resin up to the mark, then hardener up to the next mark. Pull your epoxy cup out and set the master cup aside to keep it clean, mix the resin and hardener and then dump it out in a paint roller tray (disposable liner) or wherever you need it. Doing it this way gets you same size batches and is pretty accurate. Some guys weigh their epoxy, but that takes longer and you have to figure out the ratio by weight instead of volume- they're different.

The fumes from a batch of overheating epoxy are nasty and not good for you, it's important to have good ventilation while you work with epoxy and get any out of control batches out the door and downwind.

They sell different speed hardeners here; you may not want to buy any more materials for your build, but there is a fast, medium, slow to choose among. The suggestion of refrigerating the resin or keeping it in an ice bath is good.

I just realized I am assuming you are using the one to one epoxy sold by BBCentral, if you're using a different ratio the marks on the cup will be different, of course.

OK. Two more seams. Again - not exactly runaway successes:










This time I used a ton of the epoxy putty, which I think was a good start, but then I was so focused on pressing out any air bubbles and getting the fiberglass tape to lie flush on the fillet that I created a valley in the corner. I see the goal is to make sure the fiberglass lies flush on the fillet, but to not push so hard that you are pushing down the nice curved radius made by the fillet.

Anyone have any good tips for me? This step seems much harder than everyone has led me to believe….

At this point for you I think I would not try to use the peel ply. That is just one more step you don't need for now. Mix up just enough epoxy to pre-coat the wood. While it is still sticky mix up your EZ Fillet or epoxy glue and spread it over the joints with you tool. I mostly use the back side of cheap plastic spoons. Let the glue just start to firm and lay your glass over it and wet it out. If you do it when the glue is just starting to firm up you can smooth up any lumps with your epoxy brush. If there is any white glass it is not wet out and has no strength.
You really should grind why you have done out. For that kind of work I use a 4 inch grinder with either 40 grit or a 24 grit ZEC disk. You have to be VERY careful with the grinder as it will move a lot of material very quick. Repeat-very careful!

If you are not using slow hardner you need to get some. The other guys have lots of tricks for working in hot weather. For me I never have that problem, more like is it warm enough for fast to set up

This site has a bunch of tutorials and other information that is helpful, here's one: https://boatbuildercentral.com/support- ... ue-101.pdf

I agree. I’d put down the peel ply for now. Looks like it’s causing you problems, not helping.

Here’s an off the wall suggestion. Go to your local home improvement store and get a medium sized bucket of drywall mud and a roll of paper tape. Use some drywall or scrap wood and make yourself some joints to practice on. Spend time making “filets” with the drywall mud and taping with the tape until you can do a nice job fairly quickly. Then you’re not wasting expensive epoxy on your learning curve.

Jbo

OK. An update.

I have not addressed the terrible corner welds. But I did paint the seams with epoxy resin and the put the EZ-fillets down to attach the frames to the side and the bottom





No fiberglass on those so less to go wrong. I suppose now I should tack weld with the epoxy putty mixture (not the five minute epoxy stuff) between the zip ties and then take out the zipties and do all the interior seams with fiberglass. Right?

Some would say that since I’ve already attached the frames that the boat is effectively locked in place already and I can just remove all the zipties now and start epoxying all the interior seams at once. Any reason not to do that?

I understand I need to saturate all the interior wood with the epoxy resin first before putting the epoxy and fiberglass down.

Still not sure what I’m going to do with the corners. Now that I see how smooth the frame seams look (well, some of them. Mostly the ones under seats, of course) I understand how horrible those corners are. Can I really not put another coat of epoxy and fiberglass over them? I really need to grind them all out and start again?

If you can make them smooth through grinding and filling, you can still epoxy and glass, but you need smooth enough that you don’t have air bubbles.

Glad to see you back. I was wondering where you’d gone. Don’t give up.

It’s a slow boat, so pretty forgiving of technique. Learn stuff and put the boat to use. (Then build another one.)

Jbo