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Well, I know less about ice boats than I did floating boats when I started here.... Gotta start somewhere.

I have a heavy home made mast and boom and an 85ft2 sail.
I figure winter one should be cheap and quick not built for beauty or longevity and build a better one next year.

Maybe 20ft long 12ft wide? Large enough seating platform for a full grown man and a man child or two medium sized men?

Is there any concern with sail balance when on skates? I would assume their lateral resistance would make balance very forgiving?

Its a thought process at the very beginning, looking for some help thinking it through and not doing anything stupid.

2x 2x6x20 lengthwise in a 'V' for the hull sheathed with 1/2" plywood 4-5ft wide at the back for the cockpit.
2x6x12 for the beam centered under the seating area to help reinforce the plywood. heavily reclined seats probably add enough rigidity on their own though?
Runners made from angle iron ground down (ive seen somewhere online where the proper angle for the skate is described)
Steering cables from front runner run to a tiller that faces backward from the front of the cockpit?

In the cold with a life expectancy of one season, is there any need for glue or epoxy or glass, etc...? or is a lot of screws enough? Or say tightbond and a lot of screws?

Its been below 0f for most of the last month, warmed up 50degrees yesterday to get into the 20s and is zero right now, supposed to get cold again soon..... so I expect the lake will freeze early and maybe be a good year to try our hand at sailing on it.

Go Narfi, just another adventure!!! Jeff

Jeff wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:45 pm Go Narfi, just another adventure!!! Jeff

hopefully just the right level of adventure.... enough to have fun and learn stuff and not enough for any permeant injury.

So reading some, it looks like the beam is called a 'springboard' and needs to have some built in springiness to keep the skates attached to the ice when going over bumps.
Interestingly, the shrouds are also attached to it (or I assume would be) so the leeboard skate and springboard would be sprung 'up' somewhat, does that pose an issue? the mast would be pulled that direction by the sail so perhaps it doesnt matter if that one is loose? An other idea would be a more solid shorter beam with spring boards extending from them and shrouds attached at the ends of the stouter beam?
Does the front skate need to be on a springboard as well?

Go big!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzf-jeKhk4Q

cape man wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:22 pm Go big!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzf-jeKhk4Q

hehe, not to start with.
but.... if talking about big fantasies...
it would be fun to build a huge one with a 'fantasy' themed Norse ice yacht (dragon figurehead, etc...) capable of hauling ~6 people or so in luxury would be pretty fun to take people out on, maybe even auxiliary power somehow if needed for starting or getting home when becalmed o.0

Roughly along these lines,
http://www.isabella-iceboat.com/isabella.html
Their plans start out with this,

The directions are only recommendations ; all measurements are consequently approximate and the yacht can be built to suit personal wishes.

Which is right up my ally....

Roughly 2x the size using my own mast and sail..... ill read up on it, springboards will have to be scaled which won't be as simple for me.....

Even on water boats, the lee shrouds are relaxed compared to the windward. That said, I would think you want wider beam, some type of leaf between the skate and the physical beam, the ability to shift cockpit weight to windward, and really good medical insurance.

It will be interesting to see this one develop.

Just remember medical insurance, medical insurance. An ice boat can create tremednace forces and speeds and if the wind shifts suddenly they can flip. Put lots of tells tales on the sail. I was on one in OH that reached 50mph but I was young and foolish then.

Have fun building it and using it, they are a blast. Tom

narfi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:40 pm In the cold with a life expectancy of one season, is there any need for glue or epoxy or glass, etc...? or is a lot of screws enough? Or say tightbond and a lot of screws?

That sounds like a really fun project!! I'd be thinking in terms of through bolts rather than screws or wood glue, but I can't say I've ever even seen an ice boat in action in person, so I'm just imagining what kind of forces need to be dealt with.

pee wee wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:11 am I can't say I've ever even seen an ice boat in action in person, so I'm just imagining what kind of forces need to be dealt with.

Me either.... But in my primitive mind I see it like an oversized go-kart going 60mph with a big mast sticking up out of the middle of it....

cape man wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:22 pm Go big!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzf-jeKhk4Q

Wow! That's not too far from me, I may need to go check those guys out this winter, looks incredible!

Being from Florida I had no idea what an 'ice boat' was. Just Googled it and wow that looks cool. Good luck!

Have friends visiting for 10 days so not doing much on projects then it turned cold again... Too cold to do much in the tent at -20f

I did get the two hull sides layer out to look at the shape I think I'm happy with, 2x 2x6s 16ft long. Probably need a spacer and some relief at the front, was using an unblocked c-clamp and it tried to splinter and punch through. Still thinking about it.

Laminated up the rear runner beam, 2x 1x6s 12ft long and a 2x6 8ft long. Might be stiffer than needed but will secure the shrouds at the outboard ends of the 2x6.

Still need to laminate the front runner spring board, I have 3x 1x6s 8ft long, will decide if going with 2 or 3 based on how the ends of the main beam feel. I'm guessing just the 2 though.

When building something like this, do you build it to float if it falls through the ice? Do you wear PFDs along with the crash helmet? Is there any governing bodies that require how the ice boat is built? Can you and are you covered by any kind of liability insurance if you hit someone or something?

The answer to all of that is no. Which is both a good and a bad thing

I am extremely conservative when it comes to the ice here, I never go out until it has frozen very thick and has been explored by younger or stupider people.

Some plans call for putting foam in the hull and under the seat, but most are open frames with no flotation beyond the lumber it's made of.
I feel that a good helmet and making sure there are people around is much more important than flotation for where we are.
(of course I could be wrong, but that's the assessment I have made)

This will be a very interesting build!!! I have no experience with Ice Boats!!! Nice NARFI!!!! Jeff

I feel that a good helmet and making sure there are people around is much more important than flotation for where we are.
(of course I could be wrong, but that's the assessment I have made)

May want to consider a good PFD. I ref a game called kayak polo. It is like rugby on the water. So they are also helpful as body armor.

Here are a few different classes of iceboats, more modern with carbon fiber though some are composite with some wood. Narfi there is one set of antique runners on there you might be interested in. https://www.iceboatracing.com/used-iceboats/ Though you might prefer a modern set of SS runners.

Tom

OrangeQuest wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:35 pm

I feel that a good helmet and making sure there are people around is much more important than flotation for where we are.
(of course I could be wrong, but that's the assessment I have made)

May want to consider a good PFD. I ref a game called kayak polo. It is like rugby on the water. So they are also helpful as body armor.

To be honest, if you fall through the ice out where Narfi lives, all that a PFD is going to accomplish is making body recovery possible. As for armor, keep in mind he is going to have many layers of winter gear on, out on the ice in the wind. Doesn't really sound like my idea of a good time although I hope he gets some video.

Doesn't really sound like my idea of a good time although I hope he gets some video.

I would go for it in a heart beat! The videos I have seen make it look just plain awesome! Like normal boating, you don't have to break a speed record to have a lot of fun. The whole concept is a testament to human ingenuity.

Found this on Wikipedia searching the history of ice boats. 17th century Netherlands...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceboat#/ ... katers.jpg

I'm enjoying the build. The "frame" looks solid from here.

Netpackrat wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:34 am
To be honest, if you fall through the ice out where Narfi lives, all that a PFD is going to accomplish is making body recovery possible. As for armor, keep in mind he is going to have many layers of winter gear on, out on the ice in the wind. Doesn't really sound like my idea of a good time although I hope he gets some video.

That is the sad truth here, one we are unfortunately reminded of every 5-10 years, and why I am so paranoid and conservative with when we go out and how we approach it.

Netpackrat wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:34 am
To be honest, if you fall through the ice out where Narfi lives, all that a PFD is going to accomplish is making body recovery possible. As for armor, keep in mind he is going to have many layers of winter gear on, out on the ice in the wind. Doesn't really sound like my idea of a good time although I hope he gets some video.

Recovering a body helps love ones have closure even if they have to wait for the ice to melt.

The water we normally play kayak polo is only 2 feet deep, and warm. The kayaks can get moving fast enough and have enough rocker that they can jump into the cockpit of another kayak hitting the kayaker in the chest, so the PFD spreads the impact over a larger area and reducing injuries. Luckly, head shots are not as common.

cape man wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:50 am I would go for it in a heart beat! The videos I have seen make it look just plain awesome!

When a lake freezes in your area you would be sailing on very thin ice.

Quick thought from my “fast motor” days…

Unlike with water you actually need to think about maintaining contact with the ice. Eh oh is not actually flat and smooth. Make sure you plan some “spring and shock” into your skate mounts.

I’m sure you’ve already gotten better info elsewhere. Just popped into my head.

Jaysen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:05 pm Make sure you plan some “spring and shock” into your skate mounts.

Yup got it planned in, esp for the front. You can see the spring board I laminated in one of these pictures.

Guests left today after extending stay a few days, so I got to spend a little more time on the boat this afternoon.

Screwed the hull together and sheeted the bottom and the bow. Screwed in a seat support and seat back. Still need to figure out angles and sizing for the knee raisers/support.

Thinking about what I'll do if we get a bunch of snow on the ice and thinking about skies built into the skates. I have most of a sheet of 1/8" marine ply and thinking of laminating 2 layers 6in wide and 4ft long with a layer of 12oz fiberglass on the bottom and front bent up. Then have the skate blades through a slit in the center so when it's ice it's just the skates and when more than a few inches of snow the skies offer flotation while the skates still cut for hopefully some lateral resistance.
Not going to be light.... Hopefully not too heavy

Nice Narfi, good progress!!! Jeff

From the title I was envisaging a hull made of ice. Your idea seems far more fun

Been busy with Christmas, but got out yesterday and made a little progress.
Each main runner blade is 24" long, with the front one being 22" (3 pieces cut off of a 6ft stick with a 2" angle) They may be a little on the short side, hopefully that doesn't come back to bite me in the butt.
Will sharpen them on the belt sander, resting the non-sharpened flange of the angle as the guide rested on the side of the sander beside the belt.
I didn't think about it beforehand, but cutting them at an angle like that to maximize length while still cutting an angle made them point the same direction instead of having a left and right, for a cheap quick build like this I am hoping it won't matter too much.

Check your grind profile. Runners are concave on most blades for a reason. Not sure if boats are different but I have confidence you’ll find a unique way to do it right.

Jaysen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:43 am Check your grind profile. Runners are concave on most blades for a reason. Not sure if boats are different but I have confidence you’ll find a unique way to do it right.

They do it a few different ways, but not typically like ice skates you wear.
The two most common I have found are to grind one side 45degrees, or to grind both sides 45degrees to make a centered 90. Using the side of the belt sander as my jig requires no fabrication and 'feels' simpler to me. We will see

narfi wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:03 pm

Jaysen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:43 am Check your grind profile. Runners are concave on most blades for a reason. Not sure if boats are different but I have confidence you’ll find a unique way to do it right.

blade.jpg

They do it a few different ways, but not typically like ice skates you wear.
The two most common I have found are to grind one side 45degrees, or to grind both sides 45degrees to make a centered 90. Using the side of the belt sander as my jig requires no fabrication and 'feels' simpler to me. We will see

Interesting. I wonder of there would be a difference between fore/aft and port/star on the grinds. EX: double grind or flat forward with +45 port and -45 star. I expect that the tendency to lift the windward skate would change the profile making it important to have the right grind for best control.

As I think about it, maybe flat grind is the best start.

Like I said, I'm sure you've a well thought out but unique approach to this.

Got the mast up and rigged and all the finishing touches done (I hope) this weekend.
Last couple hours yesterday Landon was hovering behind my every move wearing his helmet ready to go. By the time I was happy with it the sun had set and dusk was turning to dark so to both of our disappointment I decided it would be wiser and safer to wait and do it in the light..... Hopefully we get some wind and I'll leave work early, we will see
Didn't realize how much extra stick we have sticking up there, I think we had the boom higher on the trimaran.... Lots of room to grow a bigger sail if we build a longer main hull for the trimaran next summer

Looks great Narfi!!! Can't wait to see you in it!!! Jeff

Looks real good Narfi take it easy on your first run out. But have fun!!

Tom

The stars finally alligned!!!!

After months of too much snow or not enough wind or too much wind and most of Feb out for vacation, we finally got out Monday night.

Was pretty easy to control speed, but had plenty of power.
We had about a 2 mile run across the lake before turning around just before a big heaved up pressure crack.
We were on our fourth lap so about 14 miles in when we started skidding skipping sideways straightening out of a jybe and broke off one of the main runners.

Tons of fun and we were still gaining confidence and speed each 'lap' no measurements but felt like we were going 30+ not scary yet but definitely focusing on the turns..... Will hopefully get some repairs done and go again soon. Need to up the ratio on the sheets as well, took some strength to hold, probably more than Landon can do yet.

Friend saw us out so messaged my wife a picture,
Ride was super smooth, the springs are probably too soft at least the front one, it twists quite a bit as well so probably need to reinforce it somehow. Blasting through drifts was super smooth just slows you down a little bit no feeling of going up and down at all.

Great Narfi, glad you got her out on the ice!!!! Jeff

Wow Narfi great report, glad you were able to get her out speed is good for a first time. Tom

That is a really cool thing to do. How often will the snow be blown off the lake enough to use it?

Fuzz wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:50 am That is a really cool thing to do. How often will the snow be blown off the lake enough to use it?

Well, as you know there is no normal and nothing is unusual for any given year.......
This warm spell has helped a lot, and its not unusual to have a warm snap sometime mid-winter, so maybe this is normalish...... I don't know

We went out again last night, there was 1.5-2 inches of snow crust on the ice, but we had enough wind to overpower it.
The repaired skate attachments worked well, and we stayed out until Landon was too cold for more, we had decided on one more pass across the lake then call it a night....
We got confident enough that I let him manage everything while I dug my phone out and got our speed to display, set it on the bench between us... we were averaging around 25mph and got up as high as 29(which makes me think we were easily doing 35+ the first night when we were on clean ice). I kept glancing down at the phone display and up to where we were going and adjusting the steering etc... and caught something odd out of the corner of my eye.... I just happened to be on the leeward side and the shroud cable was just hanging down swinging from the mast beside me, NOT attached to the cross-beam. Landon took over controls again, and I was able to lean out and get it re-attached and keep pressure on the cable so it wouldn't come off again, and we slid into our parking spot, pulled the sail down and put blocks under the skates. A good evening and no walking back this time
We were using something like this to attach the cable to the eye bolt on the plank, and it had stretched and allowed the latch to extend outside, then when the cable slacked leeward it was now just a 'hook' and easily fell off the eye bolt.

Lots of fun though, and still learning

Saturday took some of his buddies and father's out, but conditions were pretty bad, lots of crust slush and not much wind. The boys spent more time pushing each other than sailing, but had a great time anyways. They did get a couple good passes in, and Landon lost his phone, we searched our tracks, we searched the road and trails we took to get there, he walked the route to the ice and around where we park the boat again on Sunday but no luck. He was pretty bummed.

Yesterday ice was good, wind was a bit strong, and so we talked momma into going with us. Of course when she is there to watch is the one time I forget to put my helmet on and left it on the Honda, I realized about half way across the lake and told Landon we had to get it before going again. We finished the run and turned to come back and the wind picked up, we were really going and I was starting to wonder if I should angle upwind or downwind to loose a little power when we started skidding and skipping sideways, I yelled at Landon to hold on we were going to crash. His response? "My phone!!! I saw my phone!!!!" Then we skidded around facing into the wind to an anti-climatic stop and he jumps out and runs back to pick up his phone, obviously with none of the addrenaline I had pumping through me.

Turns out we had folded the leeward skate under and without it the windward skate didn't have enough bite to keep us from sliding, which provided for the wild ride I felt.

We drug it back and I built a new skate block last night so we are ready to go again when wind is good and homework is done. (Ok.... Maybe I don't ask about the homework when wind is good)

So momma(my wife) still hasn't gone and is even more hesitant now I still want to get her out there this winter.

"My phone!!! I saw my phone!!!!"

He had his priorities in order!