Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Joel,

Wanted to follow-up on our conversation yesterday. I have a 17 Mako available if someone would like to take it as a project. I demo'd out the floor and interior already. Needs all new stringers. I just picked up another project so this one is not going to happen. I have the title so all is good to register it as a Mako. I think it is a 71 but don't remember. It has the tank but no console or anything else.

Obviously I would hope that anyone who took this would buy the materials from you guys. There are some photos in the gallary but none of the outside. I will take a couple. I am in North Palm Beach, FL.

After you called, I had a change of heart ......


If there is not someone who wants to rebuild her now, I will take it off your hands.

DayTrip would love to take it off your hands also, but am leary of the cracked stringers and fiberglass underneath those points. Hope Shine can restore it to the beauty those boats are capable of. Loved the older Mako's, they were also built to withstand just about anything. Don't know why those stringers cracked liked that and that is what makes me leary of the boat.

What's to be leary of? Not only is it a free boat, but he's already done a HUGE amount of the destruction work. I personally think this is a incredibly kind gesture If I was back in GA, I'd be on the first interstate down there

DayTrip, are you documenting the other rebuild? We love good boat porn around here. I also hope Joel picks this up and does her justice. Great hull

Will

wegcagle wrote:What's to be leary of? l

fatigued glass

with delaminated stringers, the bottom flexes too much and the fiberglass looses a lot of its ultimate strength. fatigued polyester FRP can loose a majority of it ultimate breaking strength from flexing (imagine the paper clip bending back and forth) Whomever rebuilds a boat with broken stringers needs to make sure the hull is not cracked. There is no way to know how much the glass is fatigued without send a sample of the hull to a composites lab for a test. At a minimum you would want to rebuild with smaller panel spacing than original - to be safe.

Exactly Shine and making a 2000 mile round trip to check it out just doesn't make sense to me at this point since you are right near there. The fiberglass may be fine or maybe fatiqued with the broken stringers, but until your up close and comfortable you can't tell.

Whomever rebuilds a boat with broken stringers needs to make sure the hull is not cracked. There is no way to know how much the glass is fatigued without send a sample of the hull to a composites lab for a test. At a minimum you would want to rebuild with smaller panel spacing than original - to be safe.

So, just out of curiosity Joel, what would be the best way for someone to fix the hull if it shows too much fatigue? Would you lay a sheet of 1708 (or similar) over the hull inside and out? Or do you just cut it up and throw it on the burn pile

seth

(imagine the paper clip bending back and forth)

Nice analogy. Now I get it
I guess I always just thought of it as an empty ice cream cone just waiting for the goods

If anyone can get this baby back to her glory days it would be you Joel. Look forward to watching.

Will

majorgator wrote:So, just out of curiosity Joel, what would be the best way for someone to fix the hull if it shows too much fatigue? Would you lay a sheet of 1708 (or similar) over the hull inside and out? Or do you just cut it up and throw it on the burn pile seth

thats right, either lay in new glass and decrease panel span (flexing) or scrap it. Each one is different, so you just have to look and see There is no being sure though, even with something like my seacraft. Unless you embedded sensors throughout the hull, There is not a way to measure stress cycles and how much the glass deflected in each cycle. If you knew that, then you could estimate the fatigue and ultimate strength loss. I attended a seminar on this some years ago and its covered in a few compose books we have in the office

It's a big decision when the stringers have cracked on a parrallel line. Like Shine I took a seminar many years ago. He is probably more current than I am. If the stringers cracked as a result of the hull bottom being damaged then that is probably where the toss the boat comes in as the damage will continue to be extended over time . If the stringers were poorly designed and the cracks are from the inside out then there may be a chance that they may be repairable.

The early Mako's were made with a heavy fiberglass skin so it is possible that the damaged stinger did not affect the hull.

Joel,

If you want it no problem. The stringers did not crack at the same point(s). The bottom is cracked at one location but running paralell to the stringer not perpendicular. Just let me know if you do want it. I'll enail my cell to you if you want to ask anything specific

Jim

I had a double post Sorry

This is the project replacing the Mako.


The console is a monstrosity so it will be cut WAY down. 23 long 8'6 wide. Basically a barge!

Joel,

Wanted to get your thoughts, guidance and advice on my latest brain fart. The 23' bay boat above is not really "pratical" for what I want. The boat runs really well as verified by a ride on my buddy's identical boat. What i would like to do is raise the free board. I have looked at "skabbing" on but the bow is way to flat to get what I want. So my thought is cut the existing sides off and put the sides I want back on. I thought I would use the same techniques that I learned when building the OB15. I plot the hull shape on Acad after using a laser level and plumb bob to get the geometry. Then I laid out a shape that accomplishes what I am looking for. I also did the developed panel drawings. Any of this can change if you have other thoughts. So what do you think?

Hi Jim,

It is possible, but it seems like an awful lot of work. You will have to build a new deck and frames from templates (a ton of work). For me, the beauty of a rebuild is the potential for time savings over building a one-off (not always the case though) You could build a one off boat like the AB23 in less time than if you highly modified the boat you have. Maybe you have some other parts that will speed up the re-build that Im unaware of

Of the possible problem(s) to be solved; how to bond the two parts together, and how you hold it together and fair while you glass. You will need some molds/jigs. You need big overlaps of glass on the inside and out, so there will a lot of faring work on the outside.

If you have a 3D model, I suppose this could help and save some templating time

Personally, I would try to find another hull that was closer to what I wanted.

I should probably start a new thread but wantd to update the "Free Mako" status. I decided to redue this boat. So I took the transome core out as well as the stringers. Mentined above the strigers were broke/rotted. I am going back with foam as I was given a ton of it by a friend. I have no issue with wood using the techniques Jaques reccomends but since i have the foam... I ground the entire bottom of the hull and the transom. i did find a couple areas that were stress crack so I ground them out. Looks like it was in loactions were the trailer roller were.

Broken stringers




Here is were the cracks are grounds out.




I then repaired the ground areas with one layer of 1808 and 2 layers of 1708. I will grind out the previuos duraglass repair attempt from the outside so I wanted plenty of material there. I will then add a layer of 1708 and fair it in.




I built the stringers using 1" divinicell foam. Used one layer 1808 and two layers 1708 on each side. Built them out of the boat.I then jigged them together with plywood to hold them 30 inches appart and square with each other.



I then final scribed them to the hull and filleted them in. Before I set them in I added a single layer of 6" 1708. I used a trick Joel showed some time back, I bought some empty caulk tubes and put my epoxy wood flour mix in. Very fast and very clean. I highly recommend it! I am using wood flour as the thickening agent.



I taped the stringers in with a 12" 1708 and a 6" as well. Then I added a layer of 1808 to the entire bottom to repalce what I gound out and to stiffen it up. Then I put the bulkheads in and taped them in.


I raised the transome to 25" mainly for safety. I did everything from the inside. I put a mold/dam on the ouside and glassed one 1808 and three 1708 to add the height and close the openning down to 30 inches. I used a 1-1/2" 26# coosa






I

Thought i would post pics of the hatches I am making. Started by using MDF to build the hatch reciever. I built it at 24"x36". i was originally building them for a different boat so they are a little big but will work.



I actually painted the mold with Awlgrip as I was painting something for my neighbor. Worked really well. This is one of the parts. You can see the recesses for the hinges. They are made of starboard in just screewed in.



I am building my first hatch today. Made the mold from melamine and used modeling clay to make the rounded corners.



I am cutting the mold down to 18"x18" for three of the smaller compartments. Had to do a little glazing putty and sanding and then reprimed.

thanks for posting the pix. Those are nice hatch molds, will save you a lot of time.

Thank you Joel for all the help! I did wind up cutting the mold down so I won't need more molds. I would like to try them though. What do you think about the transome. If you remeber I built it with left over coosa. The verticle support are basically stringer extensions that tie to the transom and then that bulkhead 22" forward of the transome.

I do not see a problem with the transom.

You should laminate the bulkhead first, so your transom "knees" are glassed to a solid skin. Maybe a better way of saying it is the skin of the bulkhead should be uninterrupted

Got it. That was the plan. More because I was doing it outside the boat but I understand why you say go that way. Thanks

What hull is the 23' bottom from?

Matt,

It is a Tides which Venture boats later bought.

Joel,

Any idea what kind of force (thrust) a 90 hp motor puts out? I can dig in my brain cell to conver hp to thrust but I thought I would ask first.

It depends a lot on the engine, type, age, wear, it's RPMs, gear ratio, prop size and efficiency, and boat speed. Hard to say exactly without hooking it up to a scale, there aren't any easy and accurate formulas, but I'd guess roughly 1500 foot pounds, give or take a couple hundred.

Thanks Larry,

I remeber back in an aero propullsion class I took there was a conversion but that was for an engine moving air. I would think the design guides for boats might provide that?

My best guess was ~2250lbs based on a few references at 25lb/hp for this type of boat, but it really is dependent upon a number of factors as mentioned above. It is not constant even for a given engine on a given boat across its performance/speed range.

Foot-pounds is a unit of torque or energy, thrust is in pounds.

Wanted to share some progress. Got the aft deck put together. The two small compartments at the transome will be baitwells/coolers. The larger compartments are storage which will be separated in the middle. The hatch gutters were made from the mold which I showed earlier and the hatches themselves were made from temporary melamine molds as well. The deck is cored with foam only because I have it.

Nice job on the hatches

Some updated photos


Anchor locker and cooler




Compartments

Been experimenting with resin infusion have done 5 flat part all the same size to figure out the best technique. Had my first "perfect part" but not perfect set up. This is really cool. Creates alot of waste bag, peel py, flow media, spiral tubing, plastic tees... Working my way to a bigger part like a hard top.

This is part #3 pretty good but had some dry spots on the bottom. It is the floor of my cooler now. Both sides come out near fair. That is really nice!

nice

Thanks Joel. The infusion process is preaty cool. I haven't quite profected it but getting there. Tried the first two parts using the marine epoxy but did not have the flow media. I think the viscosity is too high. Tried calling you to get your thoughts but it sounded like you were out slacken off. Last three parts were with polyester and it flowed well. One trick for sure is to put the backing side up so the slits in the foam help the resin move. Flow media on top is key as well. I am using something called Greenflow 75.

Not a cheap process.

Dug the 17 Mako project back out this weekend and actually fliped the hull over to grind off the bottom paint and do some repairs. You can see the modifications to the cap and the overall layout. Got my Son interested in helping so I figured I better strick while the iron is hot!

I like that layout, very functional. You still have those hatch molds

I do Joel. You need some? I modified the smaller one to incorpoate a turndown on the inside. I need to come up and get that foam and epoxy. Did you see the 258 mako I loaded photos of this morning? I am going to cut the cabin house off and make a open boat out of it, some day after the 17 is done.

That will make a nice project. Perfect size for a new 300 4 stroke

You need some?

not right now, but they are super nice to have when needed. Please let me know if you ever want to sell them.

I could make you a mold from a hatch/gutter if you want Joel. That would be a fun project. I have never made a "production" type mold. The original is MDF. Not sure how many pulls are left before some work is required.

I would love to do a 300 on the 25. I plan on a small console that allows pleanty of walk around space, a coffin box fish box in front of that and I would really like to do a hardtop on a walk around tower. I just need the money tree to blossum.

Added a layer of glass to the bottom over the weekend. You will see in the earlier photos some bottom damage from a trailer so i was not sure of the overall condition. Ground the bottom panit and gel coat off. Vacuumed bag the glass down. worked preaty well.

I bet that was fun in this weather

It was definitely sweaty out there. Scrambling to get the bag on. Never got a perfect seal but I am sure I had a couple psi on it

you dont need much to compress the resin into the cloth.

Joel, have you ever looked at Aircell foam? We wound up buying 2 inch for that hardtop project. Heavier to get the same properties as divinycell. I will start a thread on that project. Need to come up and get glass and resign. What days are you open this week?

Call before stopping by to pick up materials, especially around holidays. We will be there tomorrow and Wednesday but will close on Thursday and probably on Friday. I have not made up my mind . . .
Yes, we know Aircell.

Any concerns with the Aircell and marine epoxy or concerns overall? Thanks

Im here today. tomorrow, and part of friday (maybe)

Any concerns with the Aircell and marine epoxy or concerns overall? Thanks

I have not worked with it, but I know what it is.

Thanks Joel. I am going to do a test piece to see hoe it reacts. I'll let you know.

A bit of an update on the 17. Got the bottom faired and graphite coated. Also primed and faired the hull 3 times! Looking to paint in the next week and flip it back over.

your getting pretty good at this

Painted the boat over the holiday weekend and flipped it back over. Didn't get a phote of it flipped back though. Came out good. Built a temporary spray tent so no dust!



This is a photo of the spray tent I built. The back was closed in with screen at the top and plastic at the bottom. Had two fans blowing air in through filters. Moved the compressor out of the garage and un-plugged everything so no explosions from the paint fumes!

Jealous! Nice work! I better get some tarps and set up my area a little better....

Thanks man. The spray tent helps ALOT.

Took a shot of the boat over the weekend. Trying ot finish some details on the glass work. The new rear desk is what I was glassing in this shot. The glass turns down of the deck, make a concave curve then turns down again where the rub rail attaches. I used PVC to help hold the glass tight against the concave curve. Works preaty well. just a bit more then it is fairing and paint.

I little update. Top sides are faired and primed (first build). Filling some remaining areas and hope to final prime this weekend. I bought a 135 merc optimax for it so I am ready to move on!

Got the top sides non skided and am working on the console which is now glassed in.

I am doing what everyone likes to call "palm beach style" controls. Basically a side lever throttle.


The lever is made by Schmitt/Ongaro (model 50013).

A couple challenges to do this arise from the fact that there is no off the shelf solution for outboard cable controls. What I found is that when this is done most use a Morse/Teleflex MT3 control which is standard.

They then mount them in the console so that the only thing outside is the handled. This presents the challenge of how to do that whch you can see my solution was cut a block of wood that is used as the mounting surface, epoxy it to the console then side mount the control to the plywood. Worked fine.


Next problem is that there is no "palm Beach" lever that will mount right to the MT3 as the shaft on the MT3 is 3/4 splined and the PB lever is 5/8" keyed shaft.

Additionally the shft is not long enough to extend outside the console. My solution was to buy a replacement stainless steel handle for the MT3 from on Ongaro (50010), cut the arm of of the hub (part that is 3/4" splined), then weld a 5/8" shaft on that so that the PB lever will mount to it. That part is being done as we speak by West Gate Sheet Metal. Photos to come. Anyway I could not fiond this documented anywhere so thought I would post it up. Expensive but unique. MT3=$230, PB lever=$150, replacement lever = $55. More to follow.

Couple updated photos. The first is the adapter that i had made to connect to the 3/4" splined shaft on the MT3 and the 5/8" keyed shaft on the new Palm Beach style lever.


The way the adapter was made was to utilize a replacement handle for the MT3 and cut the arm off.



This is what it looks like installed

Updated shots of the console painted

looking very "palm beachy"

Must have been tricky for the welder to put those pieces together so it came out straight

What color/paint are you going to use?

Hey Joel, using Alexseal matahorn white.

Sure is looking good! NIce work and attention to detail. Can't wait to see the finished product of all that hard work.
TG

The shake down cruise!

alright! more pictures

Congrats Gotta feel good!

You have come a long ways Good work.

Classic Mako! Great job saving it.

Wow...just wow!

Thanks guys. Wish there was a way to post from iPad. I will put more pics up. I am really pleased with it

Hey fellas,

a little update. Been fighting an engine issue that I resolved tonight! been trying to get this thing proped right. It is a 2003 mercury Optimax 135. I bought it used and it is really clean. Fired it up and it just never sounded like my old 200 EFI that I had on a Lake and Bay. None the less it ran fairly smooth. Got it out and was running a 23" pitch Laser propo on it and got 3900 out of it. Clearly to big. Went to a 17" vengence and got 3800 out of it. Went to a 15" Mirage and got 3800 out of it?? It was larger diameter so I figured that must be it. Change to a smaller diameter Michigan Apollo and got again 3800 and knew I had a problem. Engine ran pretty darn good but just could not get it there. It stalled when it got back to the ramp but I justified it as the idle being low. I figured that this 135 would push this thing like it was not even there so clearly disappointed.

Finally today I talked to a mechanic and he was baffled but suggested I do a drop test on the engine. Basiscally run the motor at 1000 rpm and unplug the injector trigger and see if the engine is effected. First cylinder I unplugged the motor ran unaffected. Second on engine almost died, Third almost died, Forth, engine unaffected. forth and fifth the engine almost died. So I had an issue on #2 and #5. With that I checked the spark on these two and found no spark! I unplugged the trigger to each and in a round about way found salt in the connection which after cleaning that out the spark came back!!

Totally fired up now. Started the engine and the sound I was use to was there, the monster was alive! Took it out with the 17" prop back on and it came out of the hole like a rocket and instantly hit the rev limit and 44 mph. Now I need to go up in prop! So I am very happy but need to clean the connection on this thing to be sure I avoid future frustration.

I sits really nice in the water. I lightened it up to the point that it sits higher than a stock 17 angler that a friend of ours has. more photos coming.

Nice restore!!

Couple more shots at the dock. This photo is bait wells empty, battery under console and 10gal of water which is under front big hatch. The entire engine is out of the water.



You will not the four hatches that still need paint. It never ends!

Took these for someone to see the console so I thought I would updat post. A year later she is running strong.

Had a pm from Rimako17 that I totally missed, along with one from Jacques. Happy to help with ideas for your 17 if you are still around a month later!

The boat came out great! Now it is time for some popup cleats!