AD16 - sailboat

[Rick]

Once we'll get to the big boats (give us a year or two), I'll show some nice interior design. I don't have a degree but studied architecture for two years after my engineering degree. (...)
I love good design and would like to produce some boats in the style of the Wallys. Bauhaus ideas applied to boats.

Ah, architectural criticism. I like the looks of the TW28 (you sure you don't want to call it the Lopez Island 28?) and Downeast 23 and the Vagabonds and the Nina because of their Craftsman aesthetic. I really despise modern Italian powerboat styling: overdone, exaggerated and a grotesque caricature of Star Wars spaceships. It's OK to me that boats look like boats and not F-117 fighter-bombers. I'm not sure what Bauhaus yachts would look like, but if they look like the Harvard Graduate Center, the Lakeshore Drive Apartments, or the National Gallery in Berlin I'm thinking you might be going the wrong way. As Tom Wolfe might put it, do our boats have to look like Communist workers' housing?

Mess around with Gropius and Mies van der Rohe if you must, but remember that we loved you first for your practical design and traditional nautical style.

[Jonnas]

I really despise modern Italian powerboat styling: overdone, exaggerated and a grotesque caricature of Star Wars spaceships. It's OK to me that boats look like boats and not F-117 fighter-bombers. I'm not sure what Bauhaus yachts would look like, but if they look like the Harvard Graduate Center, the Lakeshore Drive Apartments, or the National Gallery in Berlin I'm thinking you might be going the wrong way. As Tom Wolfe might put it, do our boats have to look like Communist workers' housing?

I totally agree with you Rick. Nevertheless, I'll be eagerly waiting to see those "Bauhaus" designs from Jacques. From what Bateau's catalogue has to offer so far (which I generally appreciate very much), I don't think he'll be that radical on changing his design style, and a nice fusion, or blend, may happen. I guess we'll have to wait and see ...

[nort]

Instead of a single web for a backrest could you use one of those web nets like you see instead of tailgates on pickups. That would seem to be more secure . No sliding under it like with a single strap.

[kiwi]

WARNING: this is a true kiwi post - may contain strange ideas about sailing.

People if you want a sit in cockpit on a 14' or a 16' sailboat maybe you are thinking about the wrong sport? Maybe you are looking at the wrong boat for your program? Tried knitting?

These are sailing boats for Pete's sake. How are you going to get your weight as far oout of the hull as you can when you need to? I.E sit on deck with legs out of boat when sailing into the wind?

People asking for a sit in cockpit in a 14' sailboat are too dangerous to let loose on the water in my not so very humble opinion.

You can have a sit in cockpit on boats that are over 18'

OK

Tony

PS 9.9 metre boat http://www.bateauxonline.fr/imgsrv/bate ... nav_03.jpg

[kiwi]

Once we'll get to the big boats (give us a year or two), I'll show some nice interior design. I don't have a degree but studied architecture for two years after my engineering degree. (...)
I love good design and would like to produce some boats in the style of the Wallys. Bauhaus ideas applied to boats.

You will be doing two types of interior for each boat then. Remember Jacques good taste is aquired over time and can not be bought, apparently even less so with $US than with €...

I really despise modern Italian powerboat styling: overdone, exaggerated and a grotesque caricature of Star Wars spaceships. It's OK to me that boats look like boats and not F-117 fighter-bombers.

Despise was not the right word... If you don't understand recent design (as your post suggests) use the energy wasted "despising" to learn why the designer does things the way he does.

How do you get a 118' power yacht to do 70 mph without aerodynamics? Ahh! "the American way" - drop in 5 x 2000hp engines and brute force it through the air and water. Where do you put the fuel? And the passengers? Strange as it may seem going fast in the air and in the water has lead engineers to study the same efficient forms.

Some of the worst looking luxury yachts (interiors) in the world are "designed" right in the USA. If you want to live in Victorian "elegance" that is up to you. Boating is still stuck in the 19th century in the USA but has moved to the 21st in "old Europe", how ironic.

Mess around with Gropius and Mies van der Rohe if you must, but remember that we loved you first for your practical design and traditional nautical style.

The reason I stopped here is the opposite - practical yes but not so traditional as it seems on the surface. The devil is in the details. Methinks you have been hoodwinked Neither Gropius nor MvdR got to do any boat interior design BTW.

cheers

Tony

[kiwi]

Once we'll get to the big boats (give us a year or two), I'll show some nice interior design. I don't have a degree but studied architecture for two years after my engineering degree. One of my friends and competitors in school projects was Phillipe Stark.
I love good design and would like to produce some boats in the style of the Wallys. Bauhaus ideas applied to boats.
The new Sportboat will already be a bit in that style.

As a design school dropout you have my full support.

I had a thought the other day:

- what is the limit in size for stich and glue ply composite? (where will you be taking us...)
- what do you think the limit in size is for a person building mostly alone? (family project, two adults two kids to help out)

The hull is the easy part - it is the finishing and fitting out of a larger boat that worries me most.

Cheers

Tony

[anonymous]

Ken,

I thought your art degree comment WAS funny, I was being funny back. The harness is not my idea, it's a standard thing to do on sailboats in bad weather. You can get some very nice inflatable PFDs combined with a harness. Very comfortable, no excuse not to be wearing it. On larger boats the harnesses not only keep you from going overboard, they keep you from falling across a listing deck.

Jacques,

I'm looking forward to your interior designs. I'm expecting that the combination of your architectural training and sailing experience will come up with a design that not only looks good, but is also actually useable. Too many times I've seen interior designs that make great photographs but are hell to live in.

Tony,

The problem is not the American or Italian way to get a 118' yacht to do 70 mph, it's wanting to get a 118' yacht to do 70 mph in the first place. Good Lord, man, that's a menace to navigation that should only be allowed in special restricted locations, if at all!

That said, while 70 mph does need some kind of streamlining for efficiency, at those speeds you're still in the aerodynamic regime of the Ford Taurus, not the X-15. Smooth bulbous shapes are what's needed, not points and fins. So I think we can safely say that at least some of those designs are pandering to a Star Wars fad.

As far as the construction limit, that's just a matter of how much time & money you want to throw at it. With the properly sized space and mechanical aids for lifting, you can handle a multi-ton hull alone. Solo outfitting is just a matter of time spent. Look at all the people who've built houses solo.

At any rate, I need to go start on a major construction project - our holiday dinner. Best to all,

Laszlo

[kiwi]

That said, while 70 mph does need some kind of streamlining for efficiency, at those speeds you're still in the aerodynamic regime of the Ford Taurus, not the X-15. Smooth bulbous shapes are what's needed, not points and fins. So I think we can safely say that at least some of those designs are pandering to a Star Wars fad.
Laszlo

1. Water is much harder than air, a Ford Taurus would have some problems with that I think.
2. I loved racing cars from the 60's the Ferrari P4 is my all time favorite. Look at what Bentley draws now for Le Mans...
3. A $25 million boat is a tiny fashion statement, teeny weeny fashion statement... Remember this is some rich cats toy we are talking about.

The Wally sailing yachts are magnificent. They are also pratical when used for their program. Down in the howling 50s you need another kind of deck layout maybe.

The motor yachts are for rich people who want to be different, in French a niche market. They are aggresive for sure but there are some very good ideas:
- the fold down sides to increase deck area when moored
- the way they are open to light yet closed from the elements (dark closed up interiors are a major cause of sea sickness) the interiors are fabulous and pratical, hand rails all over the place, smooth easy to clean surfaces...
- I am not a hull designer but the vertical bow and sharp entry screams "wave cutter" and the redan (french for spray rail but it is more than a spray rail in fact) is very good at keeping water off the deck.
- the terrase on the sea... ah my life for a TW28 with fold down transom and completely glassed salon end!

Tony

[Laszlo]

1. Water is much harder than air, a Ford Taurus would have some problems with that I think.

I was talking above the waterline, where all the fins, pointy noses and sharp corners actually add drag.

Laszlo

[Ken Ford]

Laszlo, the reason I used the laughing out loud emoticon was because I was wondering if they those harnesses came in a 12" length. Seriously, that would be worth looking into for the kids. (Even a 12" length would not be short enough to keep my two from wanting to argue or fight.) In truth, the real reason I want a bigger sailboat is not for daysailing with the family. It's for reaching the grouper holes (14 miles out) and sailing back without spending $100 in gas to catch a couple of grouper.

Jacque, looking forward to the AD16 plans.

Ken