Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

The pressure is increasing: more people are asking about an AD16.
Someone proposed to pay for a custom design modifications.
I would prefer to design a new boat almost from scratch.
If we lengthen the AD14,we have to change the framing -> cockpit ->scantlings . . .
I could take the opportunity to design a "sit-in cockpit" since many asked for it.
Again, I hesitate about that because it does NOT add to the safety. It's just a feeling that inexperienced sailors have but if that can convince their wives to go sailing with them, we may have to do it.
Bottom line, I need opinions.
I know you are all shy about that but make an effort.

Question #1: what is it that you like in Adelie?
The style, looks?
The fact that she is easy to build (or looks easy).
The rig?
Anything else?
Question #2: How about a VG16?
Question #3: should I just stretch the AD14 with minimal changes?

Jaques,

I think that the AD14 is exactly what was needed in the lineup. The boat fills a niche that is quite well defined and attempts to enlarge the design would result in, I think, somewhat of an oddity. The need/desire for a minimal cruiser in the 14 ft. range drove the design.

There are a number of 16-17 ft. sailboat plans in the world already, it looks like your task would be to make something more well designed for that range than is currently available. Enlarging or stretching the AD14 wouldn't achieve that goal. The general layout of the VG boats looks more like the proper place to start the process.

The simple rigging and forward mast position on the AD14 might be adapted for the 16 footer and the comparatively larger portlights would be welcome in a smaller cabin. The extended transom (skirt) from the VG20 might be a way to make the cockpit feel roomier on a 16 ft. boat. I suppose the opinions will vary on the keel design, but the implementation on the AD14 looks easier to build and use.

By the way, the Panga 22 and AD14 plans are on my Christmas list. I left the choice up to my wife, we'll see which she prefers. (Although I'll buy them both before all is said and done )

What I like about the AD14 is that it is easy to build, V bottom panels with fairly flat deadrise at the stearn, simple rig but I would like it better if it were free standing, center board, enough room to sleep out of the weather.

I think a VG16 would be to complicated for such a small boat.

A stretched AD14 would be possible but having already designed the AD14 I'm sure you could come up with something better for the extra two feet

I would like to see a free standing carbon fiber cat ketch rig. Of course I'm a little prejudiced with the experience of my CK17. Kickup rudder would be nice. For boarding ladder just use small steps attached to the transom or build a few "stirrups" sp? recessed into the transom. And I almost forgot, can we make it so it's capable of planing?

Paul

Jacques...just to add my 10 cents: I'd really, really like to see something in the line of a traditional junk keel shoe vs. a lift keel. I don't know if that's feasible on a 16' or 18' boat. It would add space inside and you would never have to worry about some moving part - not to mention having to build it.

I just would like the idea of a weekender type, easy to launch, easy to build junk rig that you can 'peeter' around the water in with - all in line with a traditional junk in mind.

...oh well, after all these are just the ramblings of an arm chair sailer!

Jacque, so glad you asked. What I would like in a AD16 is a forward anchor hatch, something done about the frame running straight through the window, and provisions for a "jump seat" in the companionway or attached to a main sheet traveler structure for a safer seating place for my 10 year girl. As for the window – wouldn't mind at all if the frame ran through the window at the same angle as the aft edge of the window. Then a trim piece could be added to the window to cover the frame and it would still look great which is what I like the most about the Adelie. With plans to venture out far enough into the Gulf of Mexico to catch grouper, I also have the need for speed so a faster hull would be welcome but I still want it to fit comfortably on the trailer in half of my double garage. I envision most days with just two people on fishing trips. We will motor out and then sail home. The two hours motoring out could be spent trolling for mackeral. I'm looking at buying a 6HP four stroke Yamaha to do the job with my little 2.5 Evinrude stored as backup. Hugging the coast daysailing with the family I'll probably leave the 6HP at home. Ken

Were I to desire a boat in the AD, VG style, I would not build one under 18' What's the point? If you want a trailerable coastal cruiser with acomodations for 2+ I think that the VG20 is ideal. I just don't see the point in desigining or building a boat that small that is not significantly easier to manage on land and water than the VG20. Personally I think you have done very well with AD14. The styling of the boat is to be admired for its size. It is much prettier than peep hen and most of the others as well. I think it filled a need in your catalog for a minimal cruiser. I would think that there would be more interest in VG 27 than VG 16. I think that the smaller boats should be more in the line of daysailers and I eagerly await your sportboat design.

I could take the opportunity to design a "sit-in cockpit" since many asked for it.

Originally I was hoping the AD14 was going to have a sit-in cockpit, but while building the AD14 model and staring at the cockpit night after night sanding, priming, sanding. I came to realize that the seats are just fine and the strap webbing will give adequate support while sailing. I may however add an additional stanchion, at the midway point. But haven't decided yet.

PJPiercey wrote:
I would like to see a free standing carbon fiber cat ketch rig. O And I almost forgot, can we make it so it's capable of planing?

Paul

The mast we show is almost self standing: a little bit more carbon, one maore layer on the deck partner and it will be fine.
I can give scantlings for a free standing carbon fiber mast.

The sail area is there to make it plane. Just add a good skipper and a strong breeze.

DrBones wrote:Jacques...just to add my 10 cents: I'd really, really like to see something in the line of a traditional junk keel shoe vs. a lift keel. I don't know if that's feasible on a 16' or 18' boat. It would add space inside and you would never have to worry about some moving part - not to mention having to build it.

I just would like the idea of a weekender type, easy to launch, easy to build junk rig that you can 'peeter' around the water in with - all in line with a traditional junk in mind.

...oh well, after all these are just the ramblings of an arm chair sailer!

You will never get upwind with that type of keel.

Anonymous wrote:Jacque, so glad you asked. What I would like in a AD16 is a forward anchor hatch,

No room, we can't move the mast. It's a small boat, handle your anchor from the cockpit.

something done about the frame running straight through the window,

You don't see that from outside and if it really bothers you, change the shape of the window. We need a frame there. I know that a production boat would not have a frame there and if you accept a weaker structure, omit the upper part of the frame but I don't see why that frame is a problem.

and provisions for a "jump seat" in the companionway or attached to a main sheet traveler structure for a safer seating place for my 10 year girl.

Easy: if you can build the boat, you can figure out how to add a seat there. It's a good place to sit, my preferred one on a small sailboat.

While I love the way the VG's look, the thing that scares me is the 2 hours to rig the boat before sailing. Now I haven't sailed anything larger than a Sunfish a decade ago so maybe this is just how long it takes to rig sailboats. The idea of driving to the lake and spending 2 hours setting up is off-putting.

Would a VG16 take as long to rig as the VG20? How would the AD14/16 compare?

I think it's a tough call between a AD16 and a VG16. I have no idea what differences there would be between the two besides aesthetics.

BTW, here is a good link:
http://www.geocities.com/renkensailboats/Gallery.html
I have one of those in my backyard but built by Mako!
That is the kind of 16 footer I had in mind.
BTW, on the one built by Mako, the windows are exactly as in the AD14, same shape.
Mine is that color:
http://www.geocities.com/renkensailboat ... sboat.html
It was a little damaged by the hurricanes but nothing major.
If somebody local wants her, I let her go for $ 800.00, I need the room.

What are people asking for, for the extra 2'? Larger cabin? Larger cockpit? Larger waterline? Most of us would probably like to have all three items, but then we would be asking for two feet more ... since we still wouldn't "feel" a significant difference.

So, in order to have a real improvement at a given characteristic, one of the three items above would have to be selected.

Personally, I would like to have a larger waterline. Adding skirts "a la Vagabond" doesn't seem to be that difficult and would represent an interesting upgrade instead of a complete new design.

I would also use the added lenght to rig her as a true sloop, with a permanent headsail. That, if achieving the additional length with the skirt type solution, would mean having the cabin invaded by the mast at an after position then before. To me, it wouldn't be a problem, but then again, it is not the cabin what I apreciate more in the AD14...

As for the sit-in cockpit, that's what I am considering doing, eventually, since I won't be needing the berths under the seats. My program for an eventual building of the AD14(+) is not one of sleeping on board, clearly. For that, I would be looking at the Vagabond line.

So, to summarize, I would like to see an AD14+, with a possible rig change, instead of a totally new AD16.

Thanks Jonnas.
First, a sloop rigged AD16 should not take more than 20 minutes to rig.
I used to rig the little 17 footer in the message above in 15 minutes.
Then, the sloop would allow us to move the mast back and that opens the deck for a hatch.
I like that.
Now, if we design that 16 footer, someone (Jonnas?) is going to ask to shorten her to 14 . . .

BTW, we do custom designs: $ 80.00/hr, minimum retainer 12 hours, estimated cost of custom plan around $ 2,000.00 . . .

but we'll give you a voucher for the epoxy.

jacquesmm wrote:Now, if we design that has a 16 footer, someone (Jonnas?) is going to ask to shorten her to 14 . . .

Who, me? No sir, I like big boats! My problem is I cannot afford them ...

BTW, since you brought up the issue of modifying Adelie, maybe you would like to know that I'm "working" on a daysailor version of the AD14 (AD16), meaning: no cabin, all around sit-in cockpit, small cuddy for storage, skirts for additional WL and a sloop rig with maybe a slightly smaller main to allow a larger jib. No changes on the hull structure (other then the skirts). Also keeping same keel/CB arrangement and ballast, which may have to be placed at a slightly different position to compensate for the weight absence of the cabin.

I don't want to start a discussion about such a radical change, nor am I suggesting you should think about it. For the moment it's only about design layout. When, or if it comes to possible or neccessary changes in scantlings, I may ask a question or two .

I find it a very interesting concept, somehow inspired on the Argie 15 by Dudley Dix and your's CV16 (strange mix, I know ... ), but taking advantage of the added stability of an ballasted and semi-keeled hull (if I can call it that way).

Bottom line, it is a good way to learn while I'm not able to start building for real. When that time comes, who knows ...

I really like the idea of an AD16. I would like to see it along the lines of the "Klenkes" large sister "Pelikan" (but between 16-17'). Given a choice between a larger cockpit and more inside space I would go for it most of it inside. An extra couple of inches of head room would be very nice... A simple interior is better and more flexable given the size of the boat.

As for the cockpit seats - I think they are fine. If you design backrests could they be made an option? or maybe show it with two belts...

I like the idea of building my own rig. I would most probably go with the simpler 'lugsail' option. Unstayed makes everything simpler too.

The AD14 design is temping, If you make something along the same lines in the 16' range I _will_ bite.

First: I am the source of the 2 hour time to rig not just any Vagabond but Just Right. In order to get the boat and mast in my garage, I totally disasemble the mast to get it into my garage. Many trailersailers just unstep the mast and leave the rigging attached. Next, Just Right has a very complete rigging system, much different than the original Vagabond plans. After I reassemble the mast including spreaders and shrouds and raise the mast, I have to string three halyards, spinnaker topping lift and foreguy, preventers, roller furling, jib and spinnaker sheets, mainsheet, and vang all back to the cockpit and attach the backstay. I have to raise the jib on the roller furler and attach two sets of reef lines in the main. Then, install the rudder and outboard. This may sound like a lot of rigging compared with the AD14 but it makes Just Right a fully competant minicruiser. We regularly use all these lines and rigging. Your Vagabond may not need all these lines. Ours does and we pay the price in time to rig partly in exchange for being able to keep the boat in a town house garage. Yes, you can design the rigging for a Vagabond to be much easier to rig and closer to what you think it will take to rig an Adelie. Also, remember that the Adelie rig as specified is much lighter than the Vagabond rigging. My Vagabond mast and furler weighs about 80 pounds. The AD14 is probably less than half that weight. We have tested the Vagabond rig in perhaps 25-30 K winds and we know that the boat can be sailed under these conditions, I mean really sailed...to weather with only our two person fairly light crew. If the Adelie is enlarged to 16 feet, that is just 2 feet less than the Vagabond without skirt. The mast will have to approach the Vagabond mast in size and weight. If free standing, it will be even larger.

The Adelie design is great for what is intended. It will compare favorably to the Potter 14 or the Montgomery 15 both commercially available boats for someone who wants to build rather than buy. Cost wise, be careful, the Potter is apparently available on your doorstep with sails, trailer and outboard for around $10,000. When compared with some of the available plans in the US like some of the Bolger style boats, the Devlin's Nancy's China or Weekender, the AD14 is a real full fleged boat with selfbailing cockpit, and plenty of ballast...a real safe boat. What it is not is a boat with enough room inside to perform what I would consider adequate for long term occupancy. With a 40 inch headroom, I don't see how one can easily work in a functioning head. Jacques points out that with the platform concept, it is like camping in a tent. We recently spent 7 days on a cruise in the Vagabond. We stayed on the boat the entire time, eating, sleeping, reading, chatting with other cruisers, snorkling and enjoying the sun and view. Without the fitout of the interior and lots of storage, this trip wouldn't have been possible for us. For an adventurous weekend, the Adelie would be fine but after that, you would have to be more spartan than we are. I am not sure how I would find a comfortable sitting position with the flat floor and and sharply angled top sides. Entending the Adelie by two feet wouldn't necessarily solve these problems if I were looking forward to a minicruiser kind of boat.

Why does the Adelie look so much easier to build? Two panel vee bottom. Half as many frames. Simple cat rig. Fairly short mast. Plumb transom. Simplified lamination schedule. Internal ballast. Centerboard only.

Admittedly, my bias is toward a safe, comfortable minicruiser with the capability for several compatible people to spend a week on a cruise. Now that I have said that, let me suggest that if that is your aim, perhaps a 16 foot boat along the lines of a value engineered VG23 might be a candidate. Here's why:

The AD14 shallow vee bottom hull is a great choice for a small 14 foot boat which is expected to carry a cruising load. This hull shape will have high initial stability. With enough wind, with the 114 feet of sail area, it will fly. The five panel shape of the Vagabonds 20 and 23 in my opinion is an exeptional hard chine hull shape. When upright, the waterline is very slender making the boat very fast in light air and very efficient when powering. We get 25-35 nm/gal when motoring. As soon as the boat heels, the chine dips into the water, providing increased stability and the hidden benefit of a very long keel like shape. We have outpointed almost every boat we have encountered in Just Right. In a 14 foot boat, the five panel shape will not have that rock solid feeling like the AD14. As the hull gets longer like perhaps 16 feet, the five panel hull may have enough initial stability to work out. The huge advantage of the five panel shape is that it will be a lot more seaworthy shape in any kind of sea or at anchor with a swell rolling in. A boat with high initial stability tends to heel much more as a wave rolls underneath the boat. The boat with less initial stability tends to heel less. A comfortable cruising boat to me is one which is always in motion as waves come and go. The secret is to have a hull with a fairly smooth, slow roll. Boats with heavy, deep ballast and flatter bottoms tend to sail fast but have a snap rolll and tend to make the passengers seasick. The VG20 has a fairly symmetrical fore and aft waterline shape. This makes a the hull a good performer at displacement speeds and keeps the hull from sailing nose down. I understnd that the VG23 is a bit beamier aft which will help to carry the usually heavily overloaded cockpit and make the boat sportier to sail...she wil surf more easily. I would expect that this hull shape could rival the vee shape at 16 feet.

The VG20 sloped deck sides make the boat especially good looking. The boat has enough beam that the slope doesn't interfere with comfortable seating. The beam of a 16 foot boat could cause problems with similarly sloped sides. The VG23 uses extended side panels which will make the boat easier to build, provide internal sitting room and make the deck wider. The decks on the AD14 are very narrow, almost too narrow to go forward. The foredeck on the VG20 is marginal but workable.

The internal layout of both Vagabonds is very functional...trust me...we have tested it for 190 days on board. The head position makes it usable. Not private but very workable. The galley is great. The bunks and storage spaces aft of the bunks is functional. The vee berths forward are probably better used for storage but could sleep someone small.

We find the skirt very functional as a very solid, reliable and low cost engine mount. However, the VG23 low transom is much simpler to build. The motor can probably tilt into the cockpit with appropriate design.

The AD14 centerboard could be used and is probably easier to build than the keel centerboard. The way of adding the internal ballast in the AD14 is a piece of cake compared with the Vagabond keel centerboard. An alternative would be to cast a lead shoe instead of the AD14 wooden keel shoe. The advantage of the centerboard and five panel hull is that it will sit upright when beached.

The VG20 is probably the stiffest, strongest feeling boat that I have ever sailed. It is very comforting when we are out 20 miles offshore with the wind blowing hard. But, I expect that the composite structure could stand to be considerably lighter in a 16 foot boat. The ~2 foot frame spacing works out nicely in the interior layout but but fewer frames of 6MM plywood would probably be adequate and save time, weight and cost as well as simplify building time.

The sail plan of the AD14 has a lot to recommend it. If the main were kept the same size but the extra length used to provide a fractional rig lapper jib the sail area might be adequate. I'd add the option of either the AD14 pole but deck mounted as the Ultimate 20 or a conventional spinnaker. For all out versatility, the conventional spinnaker has a lot to recommend it.

I see that a precut plywood kit if now available for the VG20 at a very attractive price. A similar kit for the VG16 would clear away one of the problems we have all faced in acquiring plywood and spending time to layout and cut.

So enough for tonight. Anybody agree with me?

[quote="JustRight"]So enough for tonight. Anybody agree with me?/quote]

You've got me sold. I want a VG20

Why not design two boats – a VG 18 and a AD16? There would be less compromises. Both could have free standing graphite spars so they would actually get used more often. A VG 18 could be a real cruiser for those on a tight budget and the AD16 could be a more comfortable, faster, daysailer/micro-cruiser. For me a stretched longitudinally AD14 gives me everything I'm looking for including a 12" x 17" forward hatch for storing the wet stuff (that's with not moving the mast location except for the 3 & 5/8" due to the proportional stretch), a 6' 2" forward berth for waiting out a passing thunderstorm, finally a faster hull for cutting down the cruising time out to the grouper holes. Also gives about 7" longer seats to add a little more comfort or perhaps provide space for a main sheet traveler. Ken

jacquesmm wrote: Question #1: what is it that you like in Adelie?
The style, looks?
The fact that she is easy to build (or looks easy).
The rig?
Anything else?
Question #2: How about a VG16?
Question #3: should I just stretch the AD14 with minimal changes?

Question 1: The AD14 is such a perfect match to my sailing situation that I feel as if it was cutom designed for me. It meets all my requirements for a small, live-in-the-garage weekend Chesapeake Bay cruiser, looks better and looks as if it will perform better than any of the previously available trailer sailers. The only change that I'm interested in is the unstayed mast option, and even that is mostly intellectual. Since my wife and I are a combined length & weight of under 11 feet and under 290 pounds and since we both do well at rough camping, the AD14 is plenty big for a Saturday night camp-over.

Question 2: No thanks. Extra work, weight, cost and garage space. More strain on the 110 HP tow vehicle, more expensive trailer. Also, in MD, there's a regulatory breakpoint at 16 feet.

It's wonderful design the way it is. I've got my plans, I'm happy. If others want it, fine, but I wouldn't buy one.

Laszlo

Ken Ford wrote:Why not design two boats – a VG 18 and a AD16?

You can build the Vagabond-Plus (VG20) without the transom skirts and it becomes the Vagabond (VG18). The plans already exist. Or were you thinking of something else?

Hi Jacques.

Question #3: should I just stretch the AD14 with minimal changes?

The Adelie design is great for what is intended, as Justin said. I'm aiming at several adventurous short periods each year, no long term occupancy, in a MINIMUM sail boat. Your AD14 plans are fine and I'm still committed to build ASAP; there is only one thing that worry me, and maybe other EU builders: length at water line. I think an AD16+ could be more appreciated in some countries due to those law & regulation limitations we talked about in another thread. Do you agree ?

When the classic +10% question arose for the first time, your answer was:

Yes, you can scale the plans by 10%.
I would scale 10% in length only.

http://forums.bateau2.com/phpBB2/viewto ... c&start=29

You're saying a +10% Adelie is still a good boat, but a +10% in length only is better (compared to a AD16, with a +10% in every dimension). Please, correct me if I didn't understand well.

I think that to scale 10% in length only is a +/- trivial task for a carefull builder, except hull panels. This was the ONLY reason I asked a custom design modifications: because I trust you ("I would scale 10% in length only") and I lack the knowledge in CAD (and the CAD itself, BTW) to do it by myself.

So, while a VG16 could be an interesting boat for other people, what I was asking for is one very simple drawing sheet showing new hull panels development dimensions with that 10% lenghtwise only rescale and the skirts. About the skirts, you could recycle some documentation from VG20 plans and let us adapt and measure from the boat.

We already have a great design; for those, like me, just interested in more water line, this simple plans addendum would be a bless.

If it will cost a 10% of the plans (ok, the skirts ... we'll negotiate ), eMail delivery, I'll buy it.

Fair winds

Angelo


P.S. Against my economic interests, I want to tell you a funny story about "manual" task raising costs:

A guy went to an auto repair shop and complained with the shop owner about a defect in his car engine; the shop owner watched the engine, carefully, and slammed a precise hammer shot; he tested the engine and now it was OK; then he said to the guy:

- That's 50 bucks. -
- Wow, 50 for a single hammer shot ! - the guy replied.
- No, no, the shot is costing you 1. -
- Well, what are the other 49 for ? -
- They're for my decision about WHERE to shot. -

Rick wrote:Or were you thinking of something else?

Yes, a smaller boat but in the VG five panel style, a VG16 with the optional skirt making it a VG18 with minimal cruising accommodations but not the camper style conditions of a AD16.

We may do a VG16 later ( or never) but this morning, Ryan and I scaled the AD14 to 16.
A simple lengthwise scale. We use the same rig, same CB keel.
We need 2 or 3 days to draft the plans. It takes a little more work than just scaling the panels: new nesting, new frames, move all appendages and sailplan, redo hatch etc.
I have to do the hydrostatics: the longer hull will float higher and I will add some ballast.
Tomorrow is a holiday in the US and everything is closed until Monday.
The AD16 plans should be ready by the end of next week, web page one week later.
Angelo and Ken will get an upgrade at a special low price for their participation on this project.

abr wrote:what I was asking for is one very simple drawing sheet showing new hull panels development dimensions with that 10% lenghtwise only rescale

Angelo, I figured out that if you multiply all longitudinal dimensions by 1.125 this will result in a 16' boat and a faster hull using the same frames. For the cut out of the hull sides the typical becomes 27" rather than 24" and the longitudinal dimension at the bow gets multiplied by the 1.125 factor. The frames can be distributed along the longer hull by adding 3&5/8" each time you locate a frame. The first frame near the bow (Frame A) get moved 3&5/8" aft. Frame B gets moved 7&1/4" (3&5/8"+3&5/8") aft. Frame C gets moved (3&5/8"+3&5/8"+ 3&5/8") aft etc. Sorry about the English measurements but you have a calculator, right? I will be applying the 1.125 factor to all longitudinal measurements including the centerboard and its case, cabin sides, deck, rudder, tiller, and even the boom and sail. Ken

The AD16 plans should be ready by the end of next week, web page one week later.

Will the study plan explain any advantages the AD16 has over the AD14?

Angelo and Ken will get an upgrade at a special low price for their participation on this project.

Jacques, now you have me thinking about the AD16... Will there be a non-special upgrade price for all current AD14 plan holders?

Oops! Sorry Jacque, you must have posted your response to Angelo while I was typing mine. I hope that doesn't cut me out of the special discount you mentioned. I am interested in doing it correctly.

On an eariler thread about the frame running through the window. I would never eliminate a designed frame on a boat of yours (space them out a little maybe). All I was suggesting was that the frame move through the window space at the same diagonal angle as the aft edge of the window. You can see what I mean at http://128.186.7.22/ken/ This may necessitate adding an additional ceiling frame in a new location but since my ceiling frames will be foam I see this as a good thing, not bad. By mounting an outside trim piece on this diagonal frame line, it physically makes the boat stronger as well as making it look stronger too. I just think if you stretch the window that it looks better on the outside to show midway support and on the inside it looks more like you figured for the frame passing through the window. Ken

Advantages? It's a larger boat with all what that entails.
The program for the AD14 was to design a 14' boat, not a 16.
If you go back, you will see that most were asking for a very samll crusier and that is what we designed.

Window worries: why not cut the opening smaller? Why is that window such a problem? You will never see it from outside.
The window shape is very important esthetically. It flows with the other lines.
You could cut the opening in such a way that it doesn't overlap the frame but keep the Plexiglass as designed.

I like the pictures on your link Jacques. Though I am a total amateur at building boats it seems to me that an AD16 would be simpler than a shortened VG. My vote is for a larger cabin and sit in cockpit. Yes I know all the reasons its safe but as you said you wont get your family out there sailing with a sit on top cockpit. At least I wont.
Lori

Wow! A AD16 on the way...maybe my winter project. I dont suppose the AD16 will have a sit in cockpit????
Lori

No sit in cockpit unless you want to loose the two berths inside?
Or raise the deck to a point where the hull becomes unstable and dangerous?

IMHO, changing to a sit-in cockpit is a fairly easy task, if you won't mind loosing the berths inside (below the seats). With the added lenght of the AD16, maybe there will be enough room inside the cabin so you won't be needing the space under the cockpit seats anyway. Just a thought.

One question, Jacques: For the AD16, are you keeping the same rig of AD14? Or are you considering the sloop rig as discussed before?

Same rig.

OK about the berths in the 16 but then you'll sit too low to see over the cabin . . .

This boat has an excellent stability curve because of all the volumes: cabin and high cockpit. Lower the seats = take volume away = reduce righting moment.
It may feel safer but it is not.
It's a 14 (or 16) foot boat, not a yacht.
30 years ago, I designed an ocean going boat for myself and there were no cockpit seats, none. You sat on deck with just a small leg well. It was perfectly safe.

What I found so interesting about boat design is the fact of all being a compromise. And that surely is an more important issue at these (small) boats' size.
Thanks for your explanations Jacques.

I vote for the sit in cockpit with hinged storage under. My ten year old will not be content in staying in one special "jump seat" near the center of the boat no matter how much safer that seat is. If I take the whole family out (though admittedly probably a rare occasion), I won't have to watch the kids every second and might actually enjoy the cruise. Camping with all four of us on such a small boat would be suicidal.

As for the window thing. You're not hearing me. What I'm trying to say is that the proportions and location of the window on the AD14 are beautiful so when stretching the AD14 to a AD16, it only makes sense to stretch the window longitudinally as well to maintain that beauty. Aesthetically to me such a stretched window deserves a midway support . If the midway support is slanted like the aft edge of the window it will still look very beautiful. Trust me, I have an Art degree. If the frame makes a diagonal jag along with the midway window support then they will reinforce each other and that would be a good thing. Try to imagine solid mahogany window trim. Ken

Ken Ford wrote:...Trust me, I have an Art degree....

That explains it!

Ken Ford wrote:If I take the whole family out ..., I won't have to watch the kids every second and might actually enjoy the cruise.

If you take the whole family out in even a 16 ft boat you won't be able to avoid watching them every second. There won't be anywhere for them to go, except maybe in the cabin, and they shouldn't be able to drown themselves in there. Remember, the AD14 is the length of the Cheap Canoe, and even the AD16 will be smaller than many rowboats.

For that matter, if they all have PFDs and harnesses that are securely attached to the boat, they'd have to be really imaginative to get into trouble, even standing on the deck.

Laszlo

BTW, some of my best friends are MFAs. so don't take the first comment seriously.

Laszlo, sorry about the Art degree comment, I was trying to be funny. All my family (except me because I married in) are small people. My stepson is very slender, my wife is very petite and my step daughter although more solidly framed is only 10 years old. The idea of us all going out together and having a good time is certainly floatable but probably overly optimistic. Yeah the Art degree is more of a curse than a blessing. I contracted the building of two houses and drove everyone crazy will all the color choices and other aesthetic decisions.

The harness thing is a great idea. Ken

Window: do you mean you want a frame in the middle? No problem, you can easily cut the opening that way.
I thought the discussion was about removing the frame.
Once we'll get to the big boats (give us a year or two), I'll show some nice interior design. I don't have a degree but studied architecture for two years after my engineering degree. One of my friends and competitors in school projects was Phillipe Stark.
I love good design and would like to produce some boats in the style of the Wallys. Bauhaus ideas applied to boats.
The new Sportboat will already be a bit in that style.

jacquesmm wrote:I love good design and would like to produce some boats in the style of the Wallys. Bauhaus ideas applied to boats.
The new Sportboat will already be a bit in that style.

You have my full attention ...

jacquesmm wrote:Once we'll get to the big boats (give us a year or two), I'll show some nice interior design. I don't have a degree but studied architecture for two years after my engineering degree. (...)
I love good design and would like to produce some boats in the style of the Wallys. Bauhaus ideas applied to boats.

Ah, architectural criticism. I like the looks of the TW28 (you sure you don't want to call it the Lopez Island 28?) and Downeast 23 and the Vagabonds and the Nina because of their Craftsman aesthetic. I really despise modern Italian powerboat styling: overdone, exaggerated and a grotesque caricature of Star Wars spaceships. It's OK to me that boats look like boats and not F-117 fighter-bombers. I'm not sure what Bauhaus yachts would look like, but if they look like the Harvard Graduate Center, the Lakeshore Drive Apartments, or the National Gallery in Berlin I'm thinking you might be going the wrong way. As Tom Wolfe might put it, do our boats have to look like Communist workers' housing?

Mess around with Gropius and Mies van der Rohe if you must, but remember that we loved you first for your practical design and traditional nautical style.

Rick wrote:I really despise modern Italian powerboat styling: overdone, exaggerated and a grotesque caricature of Star Wars spaceships. It's OK to me that boats look like boats and not F-117 fighter-bombers. I'm not sure what Bauhaus yachts would look like, but if they look like the Harvard Graduate Center, the Lakeshore Drive Apartments, or the National Gallery in Berlin I'm thinking you might be going the wrong way. As Tom Wolfe might put it, do our boats have to look like Communist workers' housing?

I totally agree with you Rick. Nevertheless, I'll be eagerly waiting to see those "Bauhaus" designs from Jacques. From what Bateau's catalogue has to offer so far (which I generally appreciate very much), I don't think he'll be that radical on changing his design style, and a nice fusion, or blend, may happen. I guess we'll have to wait and see ...

Instead of a single web for a backrest could you use one of those web nets like you see instead of tailgates on pickups. That would seem to be more secure . No sliding under it like with a single strap.

WARNING: this is a true kiwi post - may contain strange ideas about sailing.

People if you want a sit in cockpit on a 14' or a 16' sailboat maybe you are thinking about the wrong sport? Maybe you are looking at the wrong boat for your program? Tried knitting?

These are sailing boats for Pete's sake. How are you going to get your weight as far oout of the hull as you can when you need to? I.E sit on deck with legs out of boat when sailing into the wind?

People asking for a sit in cockpit in a 14' sailboat are too dangerous to let loose on the water in my not so very humble opinion.

You can have a sit in cockpit on boats that are over 18'

OK

Tony

PS 9.9 metre boat http://www.bateauxonline.fr/imgsrv/bate ... nav_03.jpg

Rick wrote:

jacquesmm wrote:Once we'll get to the big boats (give us a year or two), I'll show some nice interior design. I don't have a degree but studied architecture for two years after my engineering degree. (...)
I love good design and would like to produce some boats in the style of the Wallys. Bauhaus ideas applied to boats.

You will be doing two types of interior for each boat then. Remember Jacques good taste is aquired over time and can not be bought, apparently even less so with $US than with €...

Rick wrote: I really despise modern Italian powerboat styling: overdone, exaggerated and a grotesque caricature of Star Wars spaceships. It's OK to me that boats look like boats and not F-117 fighter-bombers.

Despise was not the right word... If you don't understand recent design (as your post suggests) use the energy wasted "despising" to learn why the designer does things the way he does.

How do you get a 118' power yacht to do 70 mph without aerodynamics? Ahh! "the American way" - drop in 5 x 2000hp engines and brute force it through the air and water. Where do you put the fuel? And the passengers? Strange as it may seem going fast in the air and in the water has lead engineers to study the same efficient forms.

Some of the worst looking luxury yachts (interiors) in the world are "designed" right in the USA. If you want to live in Victorian "elegance" that is up to you. Boating is still stuck in the 19th century in the USA but has moved to the 21st in "old Europe", how ironic.

Rick wrote: Mess around with Gropius and Mies van der Rohe if you must, but remember that we loved you first for your practical design and traditional nautical style.

The reason I stopped here is the opposite - practical yes but not so traditional as it seems on the surface. The devil is in the details. Methinks you have been hoodwinked Neither Gropius nor MvdR got to do any boat interior design BTW.

cheers

Tony

jacquesmm wrote: Once we'll get to the big boats (give us a year or two), I'll show some nice interior design. I don't have a degree but studied architecture for two years after my engineering degree. One of my friends and competitors in school projects was Phillipe Stark.
I love good design and would like to produce some boats in the style of the Wallys. Bauhaus ideas applied to boats.
The new Sportboat will already be a bit in that style.

As a design school dropout you have my full support.

I had a thought the other day:

- what is the limit in size for stich and glue ply composite? (where will you be taking us...)
- what do you think the limit in size is for a person building mostly alone? (family project, two adults two kids to help out)

The hull is the easy part - it is the finishing and fitting out of a larger boat that worries me most.

Cheers

Tony

Ken,

I thought your art degree comment WAS funny, I was being funny back. The harness is not my idea, it's a standard thing to do on sailboats in bad weather. You can get some very nice inflatable PFDs combined with a harness. Very comfortable, no excuse not to be wearing it. On larger boats the harnesses not only keep you from going overboard, they keep you from falling across a listing deck.

Jacques,

I'm looking forward to your interior designs. I'm expecting that the combination of your architectural training and sailing experience will come up with a design that not only looks good, but is also actually useable. Too many times I've seen interior designs that make great photographs but are hell to live in.

Tony,

The problem is not the American or Italian way to get a 118' yacht to do 70 mph, it's wanting to get a 118' yacht to do 70 mph in the first place. Good Lord, man, that's a menace to navigation that should only be allowed in special restricted locations, if at all!

That said, while 70 mph does need some kind of streamlining for efficiency, at those speeds you're still in the aerodynamic regime of the Ford Taurus, not the X-15. Smooth bulbous shapes are what's needed, not points and fins. So I think we can safely say that at least some of those designs are pandering to a Star Wars fad.

As far as the construction limit, that's just a matter of how much time & money you want to throw at it. With the properly sized space and mechanical aids for lifting, you can handle a multi-ton hull alone. Solo outfitting is just a matter of time spent. Look at all the people who've built houses solo.

At any rate, I need to go start on a major construction project - our holiday dinner. Best to all,

Laszlo

Anonymous wrote: That said, while 70 mph does need some kind of streamlining for efficiency, at those speeds you're still in the aerodynamic regime of the Ford Taurus, not the X-15. Smooth bulbous shapes are what's needed, not points and fins. So I think we can safely say that at least some of those designs are pandering to a Star Wars fad.
Laszlo

1. Water is much harder than air, a Ford Taurus would have some problems with that I think.
2. I loved racing cars from the 60's the Ferrari P4 is my all time favorite. Look at what Bentley draws now for Le Mans...
3. A $25 million boat is a tiny fashion statement, teeny weeny fashion statement... Remember this is some rich cats toy we are talking about.

The Wally sailing yachts are magnificent. They are also pratical when used for their program. Down in the howling 50s you need another kind of deck layout maybe.

The motor yachts are for rich people who want to be different, in French a niche market. They are aggresive for sure but there are some very good ideas:
- the fold down sides to increase deck area when moored
- the way they are open to light yet closed from the elements (dark closed up interiors are a major cause of sea sickness) the interiors are fabulous and pratical, hand rails all over the place, smooth easy to clean surfaces...
- I am not a hull designer but the vertical bow and sharp entry screams "wave cutter" and the redan (french for spray rail but it is more than a spray rail in fact) is very good at keeping water off the deck.
- the terrase on the sea... ah my life for a TW28 with fold down transom and completely glassed salon end!

Tony

kiwi wrote: 1. Water is much harder than air, a Ford Taurus would have some problems with that I think.

I was talking above the waterline, where all the fins, pointy noses and sharp corners actually add drag.

Laszlo

Laszlo, the reason I used the laughing out loud emoticon was because I was wondering if they those harnesses came in a 12" length. Seriously, that would be worth looking into for the kids. (Even a 12" length would not be short enough to keep my two from wanting to argue or fight.) In truth, the real reason I want a bigger sailboat is not for daysailing with the family. It's for reaching the grouper holes (14 miles out) and sailing back without spending $100 in gas to catch a couple of grouper.

Jacque, looking forward to the AD16 plans.

Ken

..just to be persistant: This is what I was thinking of, just in stitch and glue..and perhaps less cabin and more deck space?

It's one of John Welsford's designs, the 18' Swaggie based on a junk.



link to the page here: http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/projects ... /index.htm

..so, what's your opinion on that, Jacques? - And by no means hold back

Hmmm ... everybody is very, very quiet about this ...

Ok, I'll take the risk of asking the question that's on everybody's mind, I'm sure. Jacques, any news about Adelie 16? (please, don't shoot the messenger )

Warning: To those really looking forward to have an AD16, please be advised that the messenger sent to ask for an update on the plans development has been ... ignored. You better find another way of having that information .

http://www.boatplans-online.com/ shows a picture of a AD16 with a caption coming soon. They may have ignored the post but not the information request.

edt wrote:http://www.boatplans-online.com/ shows a picture of a AD16 with a caption coming soon. They may have ignored the post but not the information request.

Yes, I saw that. I was just kidding really. My sense of humour may need some fine tunning ...

Jonnas wrote:

edt wrote:http://www.boatplans-online.com/ shows a picture of a AD16 with a caption coming soon. They may have ignored the post but not the information request.

Yes, I saw that. I was just kidding really. My sense of humour may need some fine tunning ...

Construction equipment uses a dangerous backing signal, Perhaps you could have a dangerous laughing signal......

DrBones wrote:..just to be persistant: This is what I was thinking of, just in stitch and glue..and perhaps less cabin and more deck space?

It's one of John Welsford's designs, the 18' Swaggie based on a junk.

That is very different boat. There are other designs like that by Benford and Mc Naughton: heavy displacement deep boats, not trailerable. Not a week-end boat and so deep you'll run aground in the ICW or Bahamas.

Jonnas wrote:Warning: To those really looking forward to have an AD16, please be advised that the messenger sent to ask for an update on the plans development has been ... ignored. You better find another way of having that information .

OhOh . . . we offended you by not responding fast enough?


Sorry but we have limited resources and can not respond to all messages. We help the builders first then, if there is time left, chat about new projects.

The AD16 is ready since Monday but I want to look at it once more before posting the plans.

jacquesmm wrote:OhOh . . . we offended you by not responding fast enough?

No, Jacques, of course not. I was really kidding. I just thought that those waiting for the AD16 were afraid to ask about the plans and might need some help ... .
And I appreciate the fact that you give priority to serious technical questions, and at the same time allow some space at your forum for ramblings.

Best regards.