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This is about our new trawler 34, similar in style to the TW28 except for having more volume aft (wider transom).
One of the first jobs in the design process is to collect data from similar boats. I have 6 or 7 boats in my spreadsheet but would like to see what potential builders have in mind.
So, help me collecting data.
Homework assignement:
- find one or more trawler type boats that you like
- post the URL
- get and post the following info:
- LOA or LOD (length)
- beam
- draft
- displacement
- fuel, water and holding tanks capacity
- engine size and type
No need to discuss layout or deck shape at this point. There will be at least two layouts, one with aft cabin and one sedan type.
Feel free to comment on things like desired range, top speed and other hull related specifications.

Here's a couple for the list. A little larger than what has previously been discussed for the TW34 program but interesting.

NovaTrawler 35 Sedan (3 different arrangements)

http://www.novatrawler.com/35sedan.html



LOA 39'
LOD 34' 11"
LWL 33' 4"
Beam 13' 8"
Transom width 11' 8"
Draft 3' 6"
Headroom 6' 6"
Water 45 gallons
Waste 45 gallons
Fuel 175 US gallons
HP: 160
SP: N/A
No displacement given

NovaTrawler 35 Pilot House

http://www.novatrawler.com/35vesselspecs.html



LOA 39' 10"
LOD 34' 10"
LWL 33' 4"
Beam 13' 8"
Transom width 11' 8"
Draft 3' 6"
Fuel 300 US gallons
Fresh Water 150 US gallons
Holding Tank Capacity 50 gallons
Headroom through out the boat 6' 6".
Height bottom of keel to top of wheelhouse 13' 5"
Height waterline to top of wheelhouse 9' 11"
Height waterline to top of light mast 14'
Weight 24,000 (light Ship)
HP: Varies on requirements 260HP delivers approx. 15kts.

I've got a couple more bookmarked at home to consider as well. Do you want the "fast trawlers" like the Nordic Tugs, American Tugs, Camano's etc?

Rick

Albin 35 Tournament Express (2 versions available)

http://www.albinmarine.com/35tournament ... ament.html





L.O.A (w.pulpit) 36'11"
L.O.A. 34'11"
L.W.L. 31'0"
Beam 12'4"
Draft (Single Engine) 3'10"
Draft (Twin Engines) 3'0"
Water 160 gals.
Fuel 369 gals.
Displacement (approx.) 18,500 lbs.


Mainship 34 Trawler (Fast Trawler)

http://www.mainship.com/models/34trawler/34T.html



Length Overall: 36'1" 11.00 m
Length Less Pulpit: 34'0" 10.36 m
Beam: 14'2" 4.32 m
Draft: 3'3" 0.99 m
Headroom: 6'4" 1.93 m
Clearance Height (Air Draft): 15'0" 4.57 m
Sleeping Capacity: 4
Displacement: 20,000 lbs 9,072 kg
Fuel Capacity: 250 gal 946 l
Water Capacity: 70 gal 265 l
Holding Tank: 34 gal 129 l
Available Power:
Single Diesels from 315 hp to 380 hp
Twin Diesel – 240 hp

The Mainship is a speedy trawler and may not fit the program perfectly. We have friends with a Mainship 34 Mk1 which is essentially the same boat but with a single Cummins 100 HP and makes 8 kts or thereabouts.

Last one from me, my favorite if I had a million spare change.

American Tug 34

http://www.americantug.com/at34.htm



length over all 38'5"
length on deck 34'4"
length at waterline 32'9"
height above waterline (to mast light) 14'7"
beam 13'3"
draft 3'5"
displacement 20,000 lb. (light ship)
fuel tanks capacity 400 gallons
water tank capacity 150 gallons
waste tank capacity 45 gallons
power plant (single engine) Cummins 380 hp

A pilothouse coastal cruiser built on a Lynn Senour hull design, sleeps four (two in the forward stateroom and two in a salon located convertible berth).


I'll shut up now and let the man work.

Rick

Thanks. I was thinking of all those.
I like the Mainship but the old model.
Keep them coming.

laporter wrote:Last one from me, my favorite if I had a million spare change.

American Tug 34

http://www.americantug.com/at34.htm

[im]http://gallery.bateau2.comalbums/userpi ... 4fcrev.jpg[/img]

length over all 38'5"
length on deck 34'4"
length at waterline 32'9"
height above waterline (to mast light) 14'7"
beam 13'3"
draft 3'5"
displacement 20,000 lb. (light ship)
fuel tanks capacity 400 gallons
water tank capacity 150 gallons
waste tank capacity 45 gallons
power plant (single engine) Cummins 380 hp

A pilothouse coastal cruiser built on a Lynn Senour hull design, sleeps four (two in the forward stateroom and two in a salon located convertible berth).


I'll shut up now and let the man work.

Rick

I'll put in another vote for this one.

The Mainship 34 is also starting to grow on me.

Nordic Tugs 32 (http://www.nordictugs.com/32.cfm?showNav=models)



LWL: 32' 7"
LOA: 34' 7"
Beam: 11' 0"
Draft: 3' 9"
WT: 15,500 dry / 18,500 wet
Fuel: 200
Water: 100 fresh / 30 black / 15 grey
Engine: Volvo Penta D-6 (280 hp)
Range: 800 NM @ 8 knots

This one's a little on the small side with a narrow beam close to the Nordic Tug.

Camano 31

http://www.camanomarine.com/c31.htm



Length overall (LOA) 31’
Length on deck (LOD) 28’
Beam 10’6â€

CHB 34

I can't find the mfgr's site but this was covered in the last Passagemaker magazine. The North Pacific Yachts is the NA dealer and they're listing the extended hull (36') version as "coming soon". I believe this is the 34' model in the photo.

http://www.chbyachts.com/



LOA: 37' 10"
LOD: 36"
Beam: 11'9"
Draft: 4'
Weight: 19,000 lbs (Dry)
Water: 150 GAL (1200 lbs)
Fuel: 300 GAL (2100 lbs)

I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist sticking this one in for fun!

ORIGINAL S.S. MINNOW from GILLIGANS ISLAND TV SHOW. Engine rebuilt in 1997, 10' Dinghy, 3 batteries, sleeps 5.

http://www.ablboats.com/details.asp?ListingID=74883



Engine: GM Detroit Diesel
Horsepower: 250
Engines: Twin
Engine Hours: <200
Drives: IB
Hull Material: Wood
Condition: Excellent
Length: 37'0"
Beam: 10'10"
Draft: 3'4"

Ok, feel free to cut me off of this thread now!

GB 32 a little *short* but with some streatching



Here's one url
http://www.bananabeltboats.com/boat%20p ... _specs.htm

And here's another
http://gbforsale.com/index.html

I also like the Mainship 34 Trawler ... But would prefer an engine
around 100+ hp (maybe max 200hp) something to keep it economical ...

Some of the others already mentioned are really nice...

Nordhavn 35
http://www.nordhavn.com/glance/35_glance.php4

- LOA 35'4.75"
- beam 13'2"
- draft 3'8"
- displacement 24,000 lbs
- fuel 590 gals.
- water 165 gals
- Yanmar 6LYA STE (370 hp)
- Range 600 nm @ 10 kts.

Monk 36
http://www.monktrawler.com/

Specifications

Builder: North Sea Yachts; Designer: Ed Monk, SR.
LOA: 39'10"; Hull Length 36' ; LWL 33'; Beam: 13'; Draft: 4'0;
Bridge Clearance: 18'
Displacement (Dry) 21,500
Engine: Sgl. 220 HP Cummins Diesel
Cruising Speed: 10 Knots Max Speed: 12 Knots
Fuel: 320 Gallons; Water:120 Gallons; Holding Tank: 45 Gal

Since there is a pic of the Nordhavn below...here's a pic of the Monk:

The Albin Classic 36' Aft Cabin is nice:


More details of this one at http://www.pilothouseonline.com/albin36cb.htm

And here's another example:


And another one:


I posted this picture back in December '04 - don't know much about this boat except it's probably around 50' length, but I sure love the design with the aft pilothouse:


Mike[/img]

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.comthumb ... m=4&page=2

Jacques,

I believe you know the source on this one (Michael). Laid up to say a 31-32 (maybe to a 34) footer, including proportional beam, same mechanicals (40hp diesel) as the TW28. I was after the forward lean house, a bit more overall room, perhaps top deck controls (nice but not necessary, could be shown as an option?i.e. roof load bearing enhancements/considerations).

I like a shorter med style aft roof, sliding pilot doors (ala Grand Banks style), and will complete mine with mast to pick the dory from the roof, will not use for stabilizers unless the design supports application use. Swim platform, yes please.

The TW28, bumped up to a modest (still full displacement) 31/32 footer, while not the bigger leap to a 36, would keep me (possibly others as well), within a reasonable grapple of both time and material cost to complete it, while keeping a watchful eye on long term maintenance and operational economy. Just my small world, no one else has to live in it, I enjoy cruising at displacement speeds.

http://www.novatrawler.com/35sedan.html

Of the Nova Trawlers, the #2 design is again similar to what I have in mind, but not the 35 foot length.

American/Nordics share similar and lines that make me grin, but again, at an underway and maintenance cost that is high in comparison to the Nanni/Kubota.

Thank you again.

Cheers,

S.D.

DEEP_DIVER wrote:Nordhavn 35

Captured these on our holidays this summer. Very nice boat!

Researching details on model & specs on this one but it definitely caught my eye last summer. It is a Trojan and I believe it's a mid 60's vintage.



Not really a trawler but a very nice classic woodie. Might be useful for some design details later on. I especially like the large windows but probably not practical for an offshore capable boat.

Rick

This one is to big, about 44 feet long but I''d love to see a smaller version.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/02/des ... /index.htm

Ted Brewer Grand Banks 33

http://www.tedbrewer.com/power/grandbanks33.htm



LOA---32' 9"
LWL---30' 8"
DRAFT---3' 9"
BEAM---10' 0"
DISPLACEMENT---20100 lbs.
DISPL/LENGTH---RATIO 357
PRISMATIC COEFF---.62
FUEL TANKS---250 gals

Ted Brewer Swagman power cruiser

http://www.tedbrewer.com/power/swagman.htm



LOA---33' 9"
LWL---31' 6"
BEAM---11' 1/2"
DRAFT---3' 2"
DISPLACEMENT---11000 lbs.
DISPL / LENGTH RATIO---157
TANKS---105 gals. Fuel, 55 gals. Water. Additional if required by owner.
POWER---single or twin screw to total 300 bhp

Ted Brewer "Quiet Times" 34' Inland waterway cruiser.

http://www.tedbrewer.com/power/quiettimes.htm




LOA---33' 11"
LWL---31' 11"
BEAM---9' 9"
DRAFT---2' 4"
DISPLACEMENT---8700 lbs.
DISPL/LENGTH RATIO---121
PRISMATIC COEFF---.642
MOMENT TO HEEL 1 DEGREE--977 ft/lbs.
PP 1" IMMERSION---1210 lb.
TANKS---56 gals. Fuel, 60 gals. Water

The 36' Trawler Yacht "Greatheart" by Michael Kasten

http://www.kastenmarine.com/greatheart36.htm



Length 36'
Beam just over 10'
Weight dry 15,000 lbs
HP 40-55


The 32' Steel Tug-Yacht, Terrier by Michael Kasten

Complete specifications w/scantlings etc. is online.

http://www.kastenmarine.com/terrier_vessel_spec.htm

jacquesmm wrote:Thanks. I was thinking of all those.
I like the Mainship but the old model.
Keep them coming.

Mainship Mk I early '80's




Fuel: Diesel
Engine Make: Perkins
Engine Model:
Cruising Speed: 8 mph
Horsepower: 165
Fuel Capacity: 220 gallons
Top Speed: 13 mph
Beam: 11 ft
Max Draft: 2
Dry Weight: 14000 lbs
Holding Tank: 15 gallons
Seating Capacity: 0 people
Water Capacity: 50 gallons


Mainship MKII Mid '80's



Designer: Cherubini

LOA: 34'
Beam: 11'11"
Displacement: 14000
Draft: 2'10"

Engine(s): Volvo Engine(s) HP: 260
Engine Model: D 4 electronic
Hours: 450
Cruising Speed: 14-17 Max Speed: 18.5

Fuel: 190
Water: 120

Both models closely resemble the Bayliner Explorers & Motoryacht models.

Bayliner 3218 Late 80's



LOA: 32'
Beam: 11'6"
Displacement: 12,500
Draft: 2'11"

Engine(s): Twin Hino's Engine(s) HP: 135 ea.
Cruising Speed: 15 knots
Max Speed: 18 knots

Fuel: 200
Water: 65
Holding: 23

Mike Adams wrote: I posted this picture back in December '04 - don't know much about this boat except it's probably around 50' length, but I sure love the design with the aft pilothouse:


Mike[/img]

Something like this Mike?

http://www.cmdboats.com/pc36.htm?cart_i ... b28b83a38b



Length: 36'-0"
Beam: 12'-6"
Draft: 3'-0"
Power: 60-80 hp

Rick

<boatporn>
It's ten feet too long and I doubt you want to design a fantail cruiser, but Sam Devlin's Sockeye 45 is probably the prettiest boat he's ever built. Ah, heck, it's not even close to your program, but I love this picture:


</boatporn>

Rick, I just had to comment on these designs u posted ...

Mainship Mk I early '80's
----------------------------
Nice design. A little slow speed. Should maybe need more hp to get
speed it up a little? Beem 11' ... I would like to see a little more...
Draft 2' is very good ...

Mainship MKII Mid '80's
---------------------------
Nice design. Better speed (bigger engine). Draft 2'10" still good.


Bayliner 3218 Late 80's
---------------------------
*Really nice*, speedy and modern look. I like the idea of smaller
twin engines, more safe if far out offshore. 15 knots cruising
is just ... great ... Would like to see it as a 34' with a 13'+ beam


These three has the look that turn me on
I said before I wanted to see 100hp+ something, but ... Maybe we need to
go to 200hp+ something to also get a little better cruising speed?
Still can slow cruise, but nice to have some extra horses if need for speed...

Thanks. I had them all or almost in my spreadsheet but there is too much of a mix in what is proposed.
The definition must be more precise:
1. it will be a trawler, not a river boat or a light cruiser
2. is it going to be a heavy duty, go anywhere, long range, passage maker type. That means slow.
3. or is it going to be a moderate D/L ratio boat like a Grand Banks or most of the trawlers listed above? That could mean a little more speed potential but at a high cost and moderate to short range.

I tend towards a slow speed boat with long range.
When I say long range in a 34 footer, I mean 1500 NM. Slow speed means 6 knots cruise, top 8.5 knots.

I will write a few pages about those choices this PM. I'll explain why we must make a choice between those two types and you'll see that you can't have fast and long range in the same boat.

Stefan wrote:Rick, I just had to comment on these designs u posted ...

Mainship Mk I early '80's
----------------------------
Nice design. A little slow speed. Should maybe need more hp to get
speed it up a little? Beem 11' ... I would like to see a little more...
Draft 2' is very good ...

The MKI's with 100 HP diesels, Perkins mostly, were dogs in the water. Our friends have one called "Runaway" it's more like "Crawlaway". They're a solid but heavy boat with a lot of windage for an underpowered trawler. Nice wide side decks though and a pretty fair sized deep cockpit. Without the transom door they're a bugger for anybody with less than a 28" inseam to get aboard. They eventually repowered with Cummins 120 HP which made a world of difference.

Stefan wrote:Mainship MKII Mid '80's
---------------------------
Nice design. Better speed (bigger engine). Draft 2'10" still good.

Yes a little better than the MKI, no extened top could be a plus for offshore fishing. Have only seen them from a distance and have no idea about performance. The MKI & II's are both galley down & v-berth layouts which the Admiral is dead set against.

Stefan wrote:Bayliner 3218 Late 80's
---------------------------
*Really nice*, speedy and modern look. I like the idea of smaller
twin engines, more safe if far out offshore. 15 knots cruising
is just ... great ... Would like to see it as a 34' with a 13'+ beam ...

There must be a reason Bayliner made a sh*t load of these boats from 32' to 38' models were essentially the same look and layout. We have friends with both models. The twin diesels are definitely a benefit under all circumstances. They both present a large windage area that under even moderate breezes can challenge to all but the most experienced skipper. Our buddies with the 38 just installed a sideshift thruster under the swim platform and it makes a whole world of difference. Both have small screws in pockets and small rudders so slow speed performance is pitiful. That's where they get the reduced draft from.

Stefan wrote:These three has the look that turn me on
I said before I wanted to see 100hp+ something, but ... Maybe we need to
go to 200hp+ something to also get a little better cruising speed?
Still can slow cruise, but nice to have some extra horses if need for speed...

I think Jacques will design a good strong economical hull that'll support any number of engine/drivetrain configurations to suit most builders purposes. For me it'd be a single diesel for economy. A little reserve power to fight the river currents is essential. If he designs a semi-planing hull, like the Mainships & Bayliners upping the horspower will get you the speed you want but at the cost of horsepower. The 32' Bayliner w/twin Hino's burns about 10 GPH @ 15kts and 2.5 GPH at 6.5kts. The single cummins powered Mainship putters along at 2 GPH at 6 kts.

We just have to keep in mind that this'll be a considerable project for any amateur builder. We went down the road a year ago to design a steel trawler near this size and the costs rapidly outstripped out budget so using the words "economy" and "trawler" probably shouldn't be allowed! Basically the heavier the boat gets the more it'll cost and the costs go up exponentially! So by the time you start dropping in twin diesels with all the associated equipment the cost of the project will probably double. I've read estimates of $8/lb to as high as $12/lb for yacht quality finishes. So if he designs her to come in at 12,000 lbs that'll be about $96K which is a very optomistic estimate but still pretty good for a 34' hand crafted trawler. Besides, building it yourself, you can always add options and goodies down the road.

Rick

jacquesmm wrote:Thanks. I had them all or almost in my spreadsheet but there is too much of a mix in what is proposed.
The definition must be more precise:
1. it will be a trawler, not a river boat or a light cruiser
2. is it going to be a heavy duty, go anywhere, long range, passage maker type. That means slow.
3. or is it going to be a moderate D/L ratio boat like a Grand Banks or most of the trawlers listed above? That could mean a little more speed potential but at a high cost and moderate to short range.

I tend towards a slow speed boat with long range.
When I say long range in a 34 footer, I mean 1500 NM. Slow speed means 6 knots cruise, top 8.5 knots.

I will write a few pages about those choices this PM. I'll explain why we must make a choice between those two types and you'll see that you can't have fast and long range in the same boat.

We're with you on that Jacques. The problem is once you start to research slow heavy trawlers there's few that compare to your program for this boat. Most of what you find are quicker semi-displacement boats (demands of company marketing execs) to appeal to the bubble boat crowd. You are taking this design back a few years to the features of a true trawler that applealed to a fishing/work boat sailor, slow but dependable, economical but capable, steady and stable, all desirable qualities. I think the ranges of the Bayliner 32 is <=500 nautical miles, maybe a little more. The MKI is nearer 1000 nautical miles.

You may have a rediscoved a niche not yet re-filled.

I'll buy into that! (one day)

Rick

I think another vote for this one.

http://www.nordhavn.com/35/drawings.htm

They've stopped building them this small but I've always loved the design philosophy of Nordhavn.

Rick wrote: It's ten feet too long and I doubt you want to design a fantail cruiser, but Sam Devlin's Sockeye 45 is probably the prettiest boat he's ever built. Ah, heck, it's not even close to your program, but I love this picture:

If I remember correctly it was for sale last year for a meer $750,000 US!

Lucky_Louis wrote:I think another vote for this one.

http://www.nordhavn.com/35/drawings.htm

They've stopped building them this small but I've always loved the design philosophy of Nordhavn.

Something about it just SCREAMS trawler to me...I like it!

[quote="DEEP_DIVERSomething about it just SCREAMS trawler to me...I like it! [/quote]

Here's a 2004 that can be yours for the low asking price of $459,000 US!



http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/ ... 10104&url=

That's just a hair out of my price range right now...maybe check back with me in a couple of months...

On another note:

I think it is better to worry about long range/good economy...if you wanna go faster choose a different style of boat...JMHO...
I think 10 knots would be exceptional...

DEEP_DIVER wrote:That's just a hair out of my price range right now...maybe check back with me in a couple of months...

On another note:

I think it is better to worry about long range/good economy...if you wanna go faster choose a different style of boat...JMHO...
I think 10 knots would be exceptional...

A long range design 34' long will have a cruise speed of 6 knots.
At 6 knots, we could cover 1800 NM with 250 gallons of fuel, at 7 knots, the same boat will have his range reduced to less than 1000 NM, at 10 knots, it will be in semi planing mode and have a range of 200 NM.
It must be designer either for semi-planing or for displacement.
Another point is HP.
She will go at 6 knots using 25 HP at the shaft, let's say a 50 HP engine, maybe 60. To go 10 knots, she will need 100 HP at the shaft and we'll have to use a 160 to 200 HP engine. That will cost twice what the 50 HP cost.
I'll write something more detailed about it but please, stop dreaming of a long range 34 trawler going faster than 7 knots cruise. That exist only in sales brochures, not in the real world. It is mathematically impossible.

Thanks for the link to Nordhavn, more about their 35 later.
They have a nice web page about what makes a "passage maker". They should have given credit to the original writer. That text is an almost exact copy of writings by R. Beebe in his book "Voyaging Under Power". However, they omitted an important element, the Cp (prismatic coefficient). We'll see why later.
Read the Nordhavn pages here:
http://www.nordhavn.com/design/full/full.htm
and
http://www.nordhavn.com/design/semi/semi.htm
but take them with a grain of salt. For example, no tank testing will help with roll period. It is a value that is calculated. It can be checked at a dock with inclining experiments too.
Another misleading point is " . . . a modest increase in horsepower will provide the ability to get up on plane". That modest increase means 5 times more HP than a displacement hull.
The guru of long distance cruising in power boats is Robert Beebe:
http://powerandmotoryacht.com/features/0705robertbeebe/
Here are a few pictures of his boat:
http://ca.geocities.com/passagemaker@ro ... ngine.html
I designed that engine installation in 1986 or 87 when the boat was repowered.
I will split the text about hull design in several pieces making them easier to read. Once you'll grasp those ideas, choices of boat type and hull design will become clear.

Whatever it ends up being is what it ends up being...it's all good...
Building the TW34 is a dream in and of itself at this point...

When designing or choosing a trawler boat for long range cruising, we must look at ratios.
The ones to consider are
D/L
S/L
A/B
Cp

D/L is the displacement to length ratio calculated as:
D in metric tons (2240 lbs) divided by (LWL/100)^3
LWL is length at water line.

Grand Banks of the old type have a DL of around 230 (42'), Beebe says that it should be at least 270 for a 45 footer, more for a smaller boat. Our TW28 has a D/L of around 250 at full load. By that formula, it is slightly better than a displacement Grand Banks. The new Grand Banks are out of the chart, they are not real trawlers. For a TW34 to be a passage maker, we would have to get a D/L of 400 = a heavy boat.
That does not mean expensive but it means nice capacity and some ballast.

S/L is the speed to length ratio. It is very important for fuel consumption and HP required.
It is calculated like:
knots/LWL^1/2
That means speed in knots divided by the square root of LWL.
What people call displacement speed is S/L = 1.34 but we don't have to go that fast. Most long distance trawlers go at 1.1 or 1.2.
The TW28 was designed for a S/L of 1.3. This means an ideal cruising speed of 6.6 knots. It does not mean that she can not go faster. She can go up to 8 knots, maybe more lightly loaded but it will not be efficient.
A S/L speed of 1.3 for our TW34 would be 7.3 knots.
Any S/L above 1.4 is not displacement speed anymore and will require enormous HP. More about that later.

The A/B ratio is simply a ratio of areas above and below the water. The idea is that a boat with a lot of area above water is not as seaworthy as one with less exposed area. Or, looking at two boats with the same profile above water, the one with the deepest hull will be more seaworthy. In the examples posted earlier, some boats look like trawlers but they are just good for good weather cruising because of their shallow hulls.

The last one is the prismatic coefficient or Cp.
It is the ratio between two volumes. One volume is equal to the maximum underwater section by the length of the boat, the other is the immersed volume of the hull. A hull shaped like a brick would have a Cp of 1/1 = 1.
There is a relation between Cp and S/L. For each S/L, there is an ideal Cp or vice-versa.
For example, if we want a boat with an S/L = 1.1, the ideal Cp would be 0.54.
The TW28 has a Cp of 0.62 fully loaded. For the TW28 to become a very fuel efficient boat, we would need a S/L of 1.1 and that means a Cp of 0.54. To get there, we would have to reduce the volumes at the ends, like pinch the ends. Or make the boat narrower.
If we want a boat that can go at semi-displacement speed, we need a Cp close to 0.70. That would make it less efficient at slower speeds.
Another point about Cp is steering in bad weather. Let's say we design a semi-displacement hull, one that will go above 10 knots. That will require a Cp of around 0.70, a wide stern.
The wide stern needed to go above displacement speed make the boat steer badly with seas from the quarter or aft.
If you get caught in a storm with a true trawler, Cp of 0.6, you'll keep her on autopilot, she'll be safe. In the same situation with a semi-displacement, you'll be steering and playing that throttle to avoid broaching.

Back to the Nordhavn 35. They describe it as a semi-planing hull and that means a higher Cp = not a very good passage maker.
You can't have your cake and eat it.

In the next installment, we'll discuss the compromises that we should make.
I haven't made up my mind but now the cards are on the table. You know what is possible and what is not.

Excellent info. Thanks. I look forward to reading and learning more.

The thing I like most about the Nordhavn 35 is the LOOK of it--not necessarily anything to do with hull shape. When I posted the info on it I knew it was unrealistic in terms of what had been described and discussed previously.

I understand that what was posted was a mix of looks and specifications. We will try to blend that in an ideal trawler.
I did not post the formulas above to complicate things but to explain why some combinations of features will be impossible.

I also do not say that the Nordhavn 35 is a bad boat. Quite the opposite, it is probably the best possible solution to the requirements of a certain market.

Ok, Jacques said it was OK to post this. So, enough of the naval architecture gibberish, what does it all mean to the layman with a grade 6 edumacation like me, eh? Maybe something like this.....

How's this for a start? To sum up so far, this is what I understand we're trying to achieve with this boat.

Short Description: Offshore Trawler Yacht 34' (TW34)

Long Description: Trawler (Mertens style) motor yacht capable of extended offshore endurance (1500 - 1800 nautical miles (NM)) and self sustaining for weeks at a time with ample capacity for fuel, electricity(1), fresh water(2) & waste handling facilities(3). The vessel (TW34) will be a displacement or semi-displacement hull (TBD*) capable of reaching the designed endurance standard for range with modest power requirements (50 - 100 BHP). An estimated cruising speed of 6 knots (kts) and maximum speed of 10 kts.

Basic Specifications: (approximate)

LOA: 36'
LWL: 34'
Beam: 13'
Draft: 3'6"
Displacement: 15,000 lbs (light ship)
Fuel: 250 - 350 USG
FW: 80 - 120 USG
Waste: 80 USG

Endurance:

TW34 is capable of extended offshore cruising for two adults (depends on layout selected) potentially for weeks on end. Shorter coastal and inshore cruises are possible for two adults with two children or two adults with two occasional adult guests depending on cabin accommodation layout(4) chosen.

Depending on layout chosen storage space for the refrigeration of fresh foods (6 cu. ft. refrigerator and 2.5 cu. ft. freezer) and drygoods (6 - 8 cu. ft. pantry) should be adequate for 2 adults for approx. 12-14 days before the requirement to reprovision. Note: Other storage areas are available under berths, settees etc.

Construction:

The TW34 will be a fiberglass reinforced marine plywood composite panel constructed in the Stitch & Glue method defined by the designer. Material selection will be critical on this heavy displacement vessel and the scantlings specified and engineered by the designer have to be adhered to. Fiberglass reinforced foam sandwich panels can be substitued for superstructures as indicated by the designer. These panels would be in areas where weight is a consideration but will increase costs accordingly.

The strength of this vessel is such that it will remain safe and stable in Force 7 (2 meter waves) storm conditions(5). Stabilizing aids are optional.

Footnotes:

(1) Auxiliary generator, water turbine, solar or wind generator or combination
(2) Capabilities for including a reverse osmosis type of desalinator option
(3) Option for Electrasan MSD or Y-Valve diverter (where legal)
(4) Layouts (a) V-berth fwd with single side cabin & pullman or (b) master full cabin fwd with convertable dinette in saloon.
(5) Prudent seamanship must be exercised to avoid these situations.

*TBD = To Be Determined

-----------------------------

I was bored today and had nothing to do, as if you couldn't tell from the posts on that discussion thread. Maybe you should hire me to write your promotional material & technical documentation. I'm easy and cheap! I'll work for epoxy & fiberglass! hehehe

Anything I can do to help, don't hesitate to ask.

Rick

JM:

A long range design 34' long will have a cruise speed of 6 knots.
At 6 knots, we could cover 1800 NM with 250 gallons of fuel, at 7 knots, the same boat will have his range reduced to less than 1000 NM, at 10 knots, it will be in semi planing mode and have a range of 200 NM.

Yes, voting for mathmatically correct displacement hull, not semi anything. Beyond economy, foul weather safety and navigational improvements are noteworthy. You'll get there, yes a bit slower, but probably drier, nerves still in tact, and yes, at a much improved fuel cost. Leave a bit eearlier if you need to, add a few extra days to the nav plan.

S.D.-

OK. I think I understand all of today's lesson, but I'm a bit hazy on the prismatic coefficient.

Using the brick example, 2'X4'X8' = 64 cu ft.
Our ideal hull that is 8' long and 4' beam and 2' draft should displace 64 * .54 = 34.5 cu ft.

Am I close?

Put me down for a "me too" on the Nordhaven. I like the topsides, especially the aft pilothouse. One thing that I haven't seen suggested is the possibility of a sail rig. Not just a steadying sail, but something that will contribute to forward motion. Would that even be possible?

I like the possibility of a minimal sail rig. Nothing you can beat to windward with, of course, but something between a staysail trawler and a motor sailer. If you could sail on a broad reach and make nearly hull speed, that would improve fuel efficiency a lot. Enough mast to fly a drifter could be real handy.

My vote is for the full displacement hull too.

Cracker Larry,

I also like the staysail trawler design possibility.

Vote early, vote often: Full Displacement Hull Design

Cheers,

S.D.-

2. is it going to be a heavy duty, go anywhere, long range, passage maker type. That means slow.
3. or is it going to be a moderate D/L ratio boat like a Grand Banks or most of the trawlers listed above? That could mean a little more speed potential but at a high cost and moderate to short range.

Given the trend towards high fuel prices, there is little future in 3) above, especially given the timeframe for buidling a 34 foot boat. Those who can afford the $ for fuel for a planing or semi-displacement boat will probably just buy the Grand Banks. Those who build the TW34 (if full displacement) will know there's a good chance of recouping the investment over the long term.

I like the possibility of a minimal sail rig. Nothing you can beat to windward with, of course, but something between a staysail trawler and a motor sailer. If you could sail on a broad reach and make nearly hull speed, that would improve fuel efficiency a lot. Enough mast to fly a drifter could be real handy.

I also agree with this.. the TW34 would replace my sailboat . With my sailboat, when I'm motoring if I can grab a half a knot by putting up some rag I'll do it. It's great to be able to throttle back a few hundred rpm, less noise, less roll, etc.

I still vote for a Grand Banks of the old type style in a new, effective Jac
design ... That's the one I really like and want ...
34' w/large beam 12'-14', draft around 3' max, flybridge, cruising around
6-7 knots with little extra power if need for (more) speed.

For me this would be a great compromise for slow economical long
range cruising around with family, and also to go far out in the ocean
sportfishing for the big ones ... etc, etc ...



Maybe TW34 could be something like above with different engine options,
from a small economical 60hp up to a couple hundred horses or even more ?

Below a small snippet from http://www.boat-charters.com/holly.htm

"The Grand Banks 32 has been around! She has proven herself on the
oceans of the world for more than twenty years. Her seaworthy and
dependable diesel performance give you long-range, deep water cruising
capabilities that are unmatched by any other boat of her size. The
fiberglass Grand Banks 32 has a heavy 17,000 lb displacement, deep
forefoot, hard chine and long keel. "

I saw calculation on a GB32 w/135hp engine running 1850rpm hull speed
using 2.1 gph ... Pretty good ...
http://oya.com/board/bbs.cgi?read=576
http://oya.com/board/bbs.cgi?read=623 <-Here he correct his calculation.
With large tanks that could give a range of 1000-1500 miles ?!

I'm all for the narrow, low resistance hull form. Which may push the LOA up to ~38' but the disp, interior space, cost to build could remain the same.
Also the 2 stateroom layout would be easier to work in. Isn't that a selling perk?
With a beam under 11', Maybe it could even be pulled with a 3/4 ton pick-up?

As an extreme example, the dory hull.
-Less labor and less cost
-Narrow hull, lots of flare to the topsides
-Very low resistance hull form capable of carrying a significant load
-The 13,000 disp example below can achieve 7.6 knots with only 4.6 shaft horsepower. That is ¼ of a gallon of diesel every hour! Of course that is calm water conditions, but what other 13k hull can claim anything close?
That means $avings on fuel and engine purchase. 5hp per long ton is plenty of engine for a dory, with the right reduction gear and a large prop it’ll easily have extra power for difficult conditions.

Of course this hull form has its limitations, but for the realistic home builder aren’t labor and materials cost two major factors. It would seem to me a dory hull would a great trade off for the fact that it is so attainable.

Of course the D/L is low, but with the narrow hull the issue of comfortable motion should be kept reasonable.

I wonder how adding external ballast would affect the hull? It may help overcome some of the dissadvantages?

Here is an example of a dory (long length but the disp is comparable).
LOD 45’
Beam 10.5’ (7.5' on WL)
Disp 13,000 lbs
Draft 3'4"
Designer suggests 10-20 hp diesel (heavy, slow turning: think old Perkins, Volvo, Lister...) or a possible high-thrust outboard (major savings in $ and time).
200 gallons fuel
?? gallons water - information not included for this design
http://www.georgebuehler.com/Pilgrim.html


Also Tom Colvin's website includes some description of a dory-type:
52' LOA
14' Beam
speed 7.4knts
fuel 468 gallons

"The ocean-going dory...This is the least expensive hull to construct for her size. The construction time is a fraction of the time necessary to construct any of the other hulls..."

http://www.thomasecolvin.com/passagemak ... essels.htm

Kansasbuilder has a good point what I'm also thinking a lot. Streching and narrowing the hull would not add costs for a building (atleast not much). Of course the harbour fees and such can be more for a long hull.

I'll show much different design, a TUG;



More view at;
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/piia.ruoko ... ge_tug.jpg

Lots of room under front deck, nice standing headroom. The cons is that this wont go so fast. But just a thought about different hull looks.

LOA: 35'
Beam: 12
Draft: 3

Engine(s): John Deere Engine(s)
HP: 330 Engine Model: 8.1 Liter
Fuel: 210
Water: 100
Holding: 30

No other stats given. This is a go-faster in the down east lobster boat style I guess. I like the looks and it's not too far removed from some of Jacques other designs. If I had a choice I'd like to build one something that looks like this above the bootstripe and have the economy of a displacement hull below the waterline. A little more beam than this one advertises would be appreciated.





Rick

those are not trawlers

shine wrote:those are not trawlers

Yeah yeah yeah, we know. Neither are 99% of the boats listed on sites such as yachtworld.com and boats.com that claim to be "Trawlers" actually trawlers. They would be better called "Trawler Style" power cruisers but that's too many words to assimilate I guess.

By definition a trawler is: A boat which trails a net behind it to catch fish on or near the bottom of the sea. By necessity this type of fishing requires a substantially heavy vessel with adequate stability to handle the heavy rig associated with this type of fishing. Higher speeds are not normally associated with this type of vessel and most are true displacement hulls.



I can honestly say I've never seen any of the boats listed on any of those sites pulling a large net up over the transom full of fish!!

This IS a real TRAWLER



But, ya gotta admit the Duffy is a nice lookin' boat!

Rick

I see some serious votes in favor of a real passage maker: heavy displacement with a "sail assisted" rig. I like them but would like to keep full load displacement at max. 20,000 lbs, draft 3' 6" max. and try for an aft cabin.
The styling is really a detail. I can make it looks like Grand Banks or a Nordhavn, that's easy.
What is important is to accept the slow speed as trade-off for long range.
Anyway, 7 knots steady is faster than any sailboat of that size.

A trip isn't just the destination, but is also the journey.


I've never been a big fan of hurry up and get there on a boat...the last time I was on a boat for an extended period was on a 42' sail boat in the Bahamas...it took us a full 24 hours to make it there...and it is only about 60 miles (as the crow flies) to where we were going...

jacquesmm wrote:20,000 lbs, draft 3' 6" max. and try for an aft cabin.
The styling is really a detail. I can make it looks like Grand Banks or a Nordhavn, that's easy.
What is important is to accept the slow speed as trade-off for long range.
Anyway, 7 knots steady is faster than any sailboat of that size.

7 knots steady cruise Grand Bank Style, open aft could be really nice ...
How about draft ... Is it possible to have it closer to 3' ?

The problem with draft is the prop. Ideally, I should turn a 24" prop. That's how I guess draft will be 3' 6".
Prop diameter is important.

I have to draft somethign for a VG23 today, will not post much about the TW34.

Forward lean house, and forward location (versus a Nordhaven aft house configuration.)

http://www.americantugs.com/images/at34/27.jpg

Nordic/American and the TW28's house/cabin locations are my personal layout preferences, a bit longer cockpit (not total workboat/pick-up truck style), than cabin area for several people trolling for salmon (and other fishing), using the swim/landing deck when needed.

Nicely completed teak/holly aft deck to enjoy a back deck lunch on, and, step into are nice for all to enjoy, and a reminder that all of my hard work and time to complete were worth every dollar and hour invested.

The AT I've provided the link to is obviously only "tug" in silhouette, but does show more of a look and configureation that is more functional for my needs. The faux "stack" should be terminated, it is juvenile and a source of laughter.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Salty Dog wrote:The faux "stack" should be terminated, it is juvenile and a source of laughter.

Hey there Dog

In the smaller tugs the funnel provides space in the stairwell leading up to what they call a wheelhouse. Otherwise you'd have to be a mini-me or whack your head! *lol* In the larger ones it has a mirror on it so you can check the progress of your bald spot!

Rick

Just a PNW guy's opinion.

I think the length has been ironed down, I think the displacement is nearing its ideal, and I think the efficiency is without question. But theres still the matter of Style

Pound for pound, some of the most seaworthy boats out there, and with such strikingly salty character are the pacific fleet. Salmon, halibut, and Bering crab boats with that work boat aire about them.

Im just throwing a photo out there, not so much as in-market comparison, but as a design influence that might stretch the mind past the Nordhavn (nice boat) or the Nordic (which a friends dad is plant mgr for).



I love the cabin, I love the sheerline, well defended bow, room for a small mast and staysail, basic but lovely cabin. No need for the long decks, but just the bow of her to inspire design a little more eclectic than the current crop. Something I think Jacques can add to the portfolio to counterbalance the Downeast influence.

Just my thoughts.

E

Spokaloo wrote:
Pound for pound, some of the most seaworthy boats out there, and with such strikingly salty character are the pacific fleet.

Pound for pound, it's the North Sea boats that are the most seaworthy.

I'm certain that everybody has a local preference.

some of the most seaworthy

Some, JMM... Would never suppose they are the utmost, just up there with the best.

Local flavor makes the boats interesting!

E

I see some serious votes in favor of a real passage maker: heavy displacement with a "sail assisted" rig.

Design a passage maker and I will buy the plans....

Cheers

Bill

Gubbs wrote:
Design a passage maker and I will buy the plans....

Cheers

Bill

It's difficult to design a real passage maker that's only 34' long but I'll try to get as close as possible.
It looks like we have two trends here: some want a fancy trawler for week-end cruises, priority on room and speed higher than displacement, others want the real ocean going thing and are ready to give up speed and some room for seaworthiness.
I may have to design two boats.

jacquesmm wrote:I may have to design two boats.

To save you from having to design three boats just stretch the hull of the TW28 25% longer and 35% wider and I'll take it from there! *wink*

Yeah, I know what your answer is so you don't have to tell me again!

Rick

How about 50% wider? That would give a lot of room.
Sorry about the tease but it is not that simple.

It's difficult to design a real passage maker that's only 34' long but

Why does it have to be only 34 ft? How about 38 with lwl 36 ft? I think Beebe says something like 38 ft is around min for a cruising couple. Maybe you will have to design two boats after all....

jacquesmm wrote:How about 50% wider? That would give a lot of room.
Sorry about the tease but it is not that simple.

Surely you're not joking Jacques? It's so unlike you! *hehehe*

It's possible the Nova 36 is almost twice as long as it is wide!





36' LOD with a beam of 15'8", they didn't specify the weight or draft.

http://www.novatrawler.com/36pricing.html

Rick

Hey there Dog

In the smaller tugs the funnel provides space in the stairwell leading up to what they call a wheelhouse. Otherwise you'd have to be a mini-me or whack your head! *lol* In the larger ones it has a mirror on it so you can check the progress of your bald spot!

Rick

Yes, thank you, I'm quite aware of the functionality train. It's unfortunate that the aplomb of design have chosen a very clumsy and embarrasing way of access in what otherwise is a very well designed, well engineered vessel. IMhO

Gimicks simply look the part, and eventually become a very tired part of ownership. At this investment level, it is never necessary to put a tatoo on a teat, it should do well on its own. IMhO

The Nova T, is certainly a great step forward in what I would like to see, but like me, could use a diet in the beam. She needs a better ratio, IMhO. Staysail capability/mast/boom would put her close to a "GO' for me.

Spokaloo: "Pound for pound, some of the most seaworthy boats out there, and with such strikingly salty character are the pacific fleet. Salmon, halibut, and Bering crab boats with that work boat aire about them."

Agree, with you on this, and also agree with "some". This certainly includes the strong breadth of North Sea designs (Kvaerner influenced off-shore "grocery boats"), that are more workboat, and do have a wonderful, well thought out line.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Gubbs wrote:

It's difficult to design a real passage maker that's only 34' long but

Why does it have to be only 34 ft? How about 38 with lwl 36 ft? I think Beebe says something like 38 ft is around min for a cruising couple. Maybe you will have to design two boats after all....

You are correct but our initial goal was to design a trawler between 32 and 34' in the style of the TW28. I can not drop that project.
That is why I started thinking of two designs. One would be the Trawler 32/34, not a passage maker, the other one the smallest passage maker we could design.
Yesterday, I discussed the small passage maker project with Robert.
Robert works in the warehouse and also build prototypes, he is a sailor, lives aboard his boat etc.
We were looking at the Beebe book and there was double ender, a motor sailer 34' that caught our attention. With a poop deck in the style of the Nauticats, it would be great little passage maker but that's another project.
Right now we have to make a decision about the TW34.
It must be in the style of the TW28 and we will give it as much range as possible.
I'll go back to model tomorrow and see what I can do question of Cp and D/L without excess.
I will also post a graph of speed versus range taken from the Beebe book.

Here is the fuel/HP/range curve picture that everybody should understand before asking for a little more speed. Comments in the next message.

The curve is for larger boat but works exactly the same way for a 34 footer.
The curve marked HP is also the S/L curve.
Look at the S/L of 1.0, close to the bottom.
It gives 7 knots (bottom) and requires only 35 HP (shaft HP on the left).
At 8 knots, only one more knot, it needs 58 HP.
At 9 knots, it needs 115 HP !!!
The two extra knots require an engine 3 times bigger.
Now look at the range, the curve going towards the left:
7 knots = 3700 NM
8 kn = 2400 NM
9 kn = 1500 NM
The figures will be different for the TW34 but the proportions will be the same.
With 250 gallons at 12 knots, you may go 200 NM but at 7 knots, you may get 1500 NM.
If I designed a hull with the same Cp than the TW28, we could push it to 10 knots with a big engine but she would be very happy and have a long range like 1500 Nm at 7 kn.
To design a hull faster than 10 knots would compromise sea keeping qualities and capacity.
I'll try that tomorrow.

jacquesmm wrote:You are correct but our initial goal was to design a trawler between 32 and 34' in the style of the TW28. I can not drop that project.

Please don't drop this project. All of the previous discussions I've read on here and the what seems to be overwhelming demand for a larger more capable version of the TW28. If you follow the entire evolution of this thread it'll become evident pretty quick that there's more than 1 boat being discussed and probably 3 different boats based on the requirements for different uses. I'm probably as much to blame as anybody for not keeping to the program on this one.

jacquesmm wrote:Right now we have to make a decision about the TW34. It must be in the style of the TW28 and we will give it as much range as possible.

I think I've expressed our requirements a number of times but what we're looking for is a Coastal & Inland cruiser which is capable of offshore jaunts (>=200 NM) when required. The ability to cross some big water (gulf stream) and skip through the Bahamas and Carribean is how we invision spending our retirement. The Great Loop, Downeast Loop & Inland waterways are also on the agenda which entails crossing some big freshwater lakes. A Trawler style boat, although designed for extended offshore cruising is also ideally suited for our intended purposes.

We really like the style of the TW28 and hope to build it before we progress to something larger. But, having a 25' boat now we definitely know we're not going to get all the ammenities and endurance to take us where we want to go. Fuel capacity isn't the most critical (or doesn't seem to be) factor so a boat with a capacity for 600-1000 NM is adequate. More is better of course. The ability to store or make fresh water as well as adequate refrigeration are greater concerns.

So, I guess if you must make a choice on which boat to develop first it'll be (or should be) determined by marketability. Who, of your clients that have expressed interest, are most likely to build (or capable of building) a coastal cruising, island hopping or canal wandering trawler or a fully capable ocean spanning heavy displacement passagemaker? Answer that and you'll probably see where the return on your investment in developing the product (100's if not 1000's of hours) is most likely to turn a profit. You also have to weigh the viability for an amateur builder (of which we are and why we're here) to undertake and complete any one of those boats.

The TW28 is a considerable challange for an amateur builder as I believe Macca is the only one to do it so far, Yavuz's was built by a professional. I feel I will be able to build a 28 after a few smaller projects and after having done that I think I could handle a 34. Could I jump in over my head and build a bigger, heavier, more complex passagemaker? Maybe but I severely doubt it. Maybe after having built 5 or 6 boats first. I'm not saying there aren't those that can just it's not for me.

So just stretch the TW28 as discussed earlier, give it the JM signatures that make it stand out and we'll build it one day. If there's guys that want more speed offer them the option for the WARP drive! "Damn It Scotty! I said More Power!" "I canna Captain, the degribulator drive conduit is stuffed again!" "Damn Klingons!"

FWIW

Rick

jacquesmm wrote:... Right now we have to make a decision about the TW34. It must be in the style of the TW28 and we will give it as much range as possible ...

I agree, we might need to separate the TW34 from the Passagemaker...
You already know what I want to see, and that's not a real passage
maker ... I want the TW34 in Grand Banks Style, wide beam.
Maybe and if possible, with a hull that can take an engine from 50 hp up
to 250+ hp ... Then it's up to the builder what speed and engine he want.
If not possible, I prefer the smaller engine for hull speed and economy.

It should be great for long family cruisings and also capable of going
far out offshore with as long range as possible.

Flybridge, swim platform, transom door is a few things I want to see
also... But ... Thats designs and a little early ... maybe ...

Gubbs wrote:

I see some serious votes in favor of a real passage maker: heavy displacement with a "sail assisted" rig.

Design a passage maker and I will buy the plans....

Just bought TW28 plans, once that's been built and had some sea time I'd be very interested in a REAL passagemaker.

If it could have Nordhavn styling all the better, but as someone said it's not just arriving at the destination it's the journey itself.

Just read a good post on the Trawlers & Trawlering news groups by Dr. Steve Frankel. It might be worthy of a read. As you'll see the (his) definition has evolved as has our discussion here.

http://lists.samurai.com/pipermail/traw ... 08300.html

It might add some further insight into what defines a "modern" cruising trawler.

Rick

Yes but again there is that speed problem. I disagree with his judgement about the seaworthiness of a planing hull. I'm not going to design a trawler with a planing hull because it would not be a trawler.

jacquesmm wrote:Yes but again there is that speed problem. I disagree with his judgement about the seaworthiness of a planing hull. I'm not going to design a trawler with a planing hull because it would not be a trawler.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Therein lies the problem with a modern definition of a pleasure craft cruising trawler. The bulk of the boat buying/building community probably equate the term "trawler" with the go faster planing or semi-planing "trawler" look alikes and not understanding that although they may look the part they don't act the part. In reality they're "Fake". I don't want a "Fake" trawler.

jacquesmm wrote:Yes but again there is that speed problem. I disagree with his judgement about the seaworthiness of a planing hull. I'm not going to design a trawler with a planing hull because it would not be a trawler.

Jac, looks like we're going for a hull speed trawler = smaller engine ...
That's okay with me as long as the final design and look goes in the
Grand Banks direction ... Wife likes the GB look so much and so do I ...

I want a big beam and wide transom ... What would be realistic
do you think ? Something in the 12' - 14' range ?

And then draft ... I really would like it closer to 3', but also understand
the prop has to fit under there ... Anyway, lets see what you can do

BTW ... what is your thoughts and ideas so far for the TW34?

How about building it with a dry stack and a keel cooler! That will cut out a lot of maintenance work.

Old Chief

Looking at the needs of everyone, I think your spot-on with the two boat plan. You will be able to get the coastal cruisers satisfied with something a little faster, maybe a little beamier, and not required to take on too violent a storm

After that, something passagemakerish for someone (like me) who in a few years wants to build a boat that will take me mothershipping with my kayaks from here (wa state) up the Inside Passage to as far as my wife and I dare to go. West coasters I think would show a vested interest in something that can make long passages as we have such an amazing coastline that can be impressively moody. A passagemaker will extend the cruising season past the fair weather summer and make a boat that will comfortably (?) take on the 10-30 ft seas that can be whipped up on the inland straits here.

E

Greetings All,

I believe we have volleyed this to core targets and design components that Jacques will be able to further refine and ultimately become two, seperate purpose vessels.

The collective is becomming a bit redundant, I would lke to propose the following:

--A Jacques prepared synopsys for each vessel--

--A Jacques determined time limit (date/hour) for "last call" Stage One addendums' for each vessel--

We should certainly appreciate Jacques and Co.s willingness to design these vessels, and further, permitting our individual and mutual contributions to the process.

Let's move on and perhaps we'll see first offs before I'm a great grandfather.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Good idea. Let's keep the discussion open until Tuesday.
I will design the general purpose trawler first. We will restart the discussion about a passagemaker later.
The trawler will have a good range, more than most production trawler.

jacquesmm wrote: I'm not going to design a trawler with a planing hull because it would not be a trawler.

And the congregation said "AMEN!"

I agree. I'd be very interested in a stable, long-range, displacement trawler as a project to get ready for semi-retirement in a few years.

jacquesmm wrote:Good idea. Let's keep the discussion open until Tuesday.
I will design the general purpose trawler first. We will restart the discussion about a passagemaker later.
The trawler will have a good range, more than most production trawler.

Still a few days until Tuesday, but here we go:
This is some of the things I want to see in
the "Good Range Hull Speed Crousing Trawler 34"

Grand Banks Style
Cabin that sleep 2+2
Open Aft (You could have Aft cabin as an option for them who want it)
Transom Door and Swim Platform
Flying Bridge
LOA: 34'
Beam: 12' - 14'
Draft: 3' or as close as possible
Enough Fuel for a +1000 mile trip
Water and Holding enough for above trip
Diesel inboard engine ... Didn't you say 60 hp something would be enough ?
Top Speed ... As much as possible, but guess hull speed will set it around 7 knots.

Just a though ... Is two smaller 30-40 hp engines valid,
thinking about safety if going far out ??
If, maybe that could be an option? I have to think about
what happens in case of engine break down far out in the ocean.

Here in the Philippines we can't just call for Sea Resque ... ... Doesn't excist ...

With two engines can always limp back on one if needed ...

I will use it as a comfortable sportfishing vessel to go further
out the ocean than what my C21 can take me, and also to
crouse around with family and friends, both long and short trips.

I agree with Stefan on the twin engine; I beleive that would also reduce draft ? Check these out http://www.mirage-mfg.com/html/n37.html
We got a tour on one last year at the Trawler Fest in Stewart Fl., and you would not beleive the room on these. Just an idea!

Steve F.

Stefan wrote:[Here in the Philippines we can't just call for Sea Resque ... ... Doesn't excist ...

Hey Stephan

Not to hijack the thread. Just that the wife is on her way to the Philipines week from tomorrow. She'll be in Manila for 4 weeks. Any tips on things to do, or not do while there would be appreciated. E-mail me if you have time.

Rick

I read this and think i found a good middle ground boat design.
Its a passamaker (not fast) and has that true trawler/troller look
thats all bizzzzz.

http://www.dieselducks.com/Duck38study.html

Its a bit bigger then 38 can be made in wood
i Love these boats from seahorse marine!


Length on Deck: 38' 3" LWL: 36' 8" Beam: 12' 9" Draft: 4' 9" Displacement: 32,600 lbs. Power: 50 to 80 HP
Estimated speed and HP requirements, calm conditions, according to the computer.

Speed/Length Ratio...........Speed...............HP required

1..................................6.05.....................5.2
1.1...............................6.36......................6.6
1.15.............................6.96......................8.1
1.2...............................7.27....................12.8
1.25.............................7.57.....................17.2
1.3...............................7.87.....................23.3
1.35.............................8.17.....................31.7


Seahorse marine version
A bit big but WOW! thats a true looking little ship!


http://www.seahorseyachts.com/core/list ... oto=1&url=

Yres, the diesel ducks are nice but I plan to make ours look more like a Grand Banks.

jacquesmm wrote:Yres, the diesel ducks are nice but I plan to make ours look more like a Grand Banks.

Aft cabin & cockpit versions I hope? *hint hint*

Nothing at all wrong with the GB design! Love emm!
I will be looking forward to seeing those plans!

I agree with Stefan on the twin engine. Looking forward to seeing the plans.

How about a small passagemaker like the prototype by Michael Kasten.
The Ferdinand 22.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c37/h ... aft_sm.gif[/url]

Sorry, will try again.

hoagey wrote:How about a small passagemaker like the prototype by Michael Kasten.
The Ferdinand 22.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c37/h ... aft_sm.gif[/url]

The passagemaker will come later after the TW34 done ...
Jac separarated them into two different boats ...

BTW, the url you posted has no image ...

Edited: Looks we posted at the same time, u a second faster than me

I got beat twice!

http://www.kastenmarine.com/coaster_running.jpga

It's a 40', but the line is weighted well, could enjoy a reduction to a 34/36,
add a bit more aft deck, less roof cover to set hooks when the Kings are on the herring spin.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Salty Dog wrote:http://www.kastenmarine.com/coaster_running.jpg

It's a 40', but the line is weighted well, could enjoy a reduction to a 34/36,
add a bit more aft deck, less roof cover to set hooks when the Kings are on the herring spin.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Hey SD

I exchanged a few e-mails with Mr. Kasten on this exact model. There's three different versions depending on your tastes. He suggested that it would be possible to modify the design for S&G ply construction but would be a pretty big undertaking. When I asked him about the possibility of scaling it down to 34 he was a little reluctant due to the original design specs for a double cabin and that he has other designs that would server a similar requirement in that size.

Gotta admit I really like the Coaster 40 and would love to have a widebody version someday.

Rick

PS. My account (laporter) got messed up so I have to post as a guest.

jacquesmm wrote:Good idea. Let's keep the discussion open until Tuesday.
I will design the general purpose trawler first. We will restart the discussion about a passagemaker later.
The trawler will have a good range, more than most production trawler.

Jac, Thuesday passed now ... Any idea when you can show
some first ideas how you think the TW34 will be ?

And ... What do you think about 2 smaller engines ? Smaller engines
require smaller props that hopefully could give us less draft, right ?
In this case could each prop be "protected" by it's own "Keel/Skeg" or ...?

Stefan wrote:In this case could each prop be "protected" by it's own "Keel/Skeg" or ...?

Something like this Stef?

http://www.kadeykrogen.com/new_designs/ ... Rlc2lnbg==

Anything is possible. Just depends on how deep your pocket book is, eh?

Rick

I worked for James Krogen 15 years ago . . .
I am working on the model but it will take a few weeks before you see an outline of the hull.
Such a design takes hundreds if not thousands of hours. Fortunately, I can delegate some of the work to design partners.

jacquesmm wrote:Fortunately, I can delegate some of the work to design partners.

Thank God it ain't a gov't job! You'd have 3 supervisors deligating duties and looking over the designers shoulder at all times!

*Whew* *Wiping Brow*.

Rick

Greetings Jacques,

One last late entry.



http://gallery.bateau2.comdisplayimage.php?pos=-9375


Cheers,

S.D.-

Salty Dog wrote:Greetings Jacques,

One last late entry.



http://gallery.bateau2.comdisplayimage.php?pos=-9375


Cheers,

S.D.-

Ok salty dog... I just had to follow up this one
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... kipet1.jpg

looks tippy

I look at the old boats like that and Cooleridge's Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner comes to mind!

Here, this is old but not ancient!!! 1929 Matthews.

Greetings Nordmann,

Yes, the lost science of tiny bubbles. Makes me dream of my visit, thank you for the post.

Shine,

Tippy? Surely you jest.

Knottybouys,

I see no provision for oars. This vessel would not provide serious transport for a conquering Norsk army of any sufficient size, unless one were driving a flag into the soil of say, Thunder Bay, in late June.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Salty Dog wrote: Shine,

Tippy? Surely you jest.

Yes, its a joke

Shine

Yes, its a joke

I was being sarcastic in responce to your suggestion that its keel would see more daylight than the oarsmen. Yes, I thought it a joke.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Salty Dog wrote: I see no provision for oars. This vessel would not provide serious transport for a conquering Norsk army of any sufficient size, unless one were driving a flag into the soil of say, Thunder Bay, in late June.

SD

Late June in TB is the start of freeze up. I hope they incorporated an ice-breaking belt in the hull. I spent 6 years there on a buoytender/icebreaker. I'm sure the large northern european population of TB (Fort William & Port Arthur) would gladly receive an invading hoard to help increase the diversity of the local gene pool! *lol* It doesn't have to be a large invasion force as long as there hmmmmm? promiscuous! *lol*

Rick

All you folks posting pictures of classic boat porn should visit the photo gallery of the Pacific Northwest chapter of the Classic Yacht Association: http://www.classicyacht.org/pnw/pnwgallery3.htm.

For what it's worth, the 50-foot Monk-designed "Rita" is owned by a friend of mine, and I think we are going for an evening cruise later this month. The pictures of "Rita" aren't great -- she is absolutely gorgeous in person.

This is a pretty big pic, so let me know if I need to remove it:

Very nice.

Rick, are you going to PT this weekend?

As it turns out, I will be there Saturday. Any other forumites going to be there?

Rick wrote:All you folks posting pictures of classic boat porn should visit the photo gallery of the Pacific Northwest chapter of the Classic Yacht Association: http://www.classicyacht.org/pnw/pnwgallery3.htm.

Pardon the pun but every time I look at that web site I get a woodie!

They wouldn't let me near boats like that. I drool too much! Have fun fella's.

Rick

Rick,

I plan on going to the PT WBF on saturday too. Want to meet sometime?

George

Knottybuoyz wrote:

Rick wrote:All you folks posting pictures of classic boat porn should visit the photo gallery of the Pacific Northwest chapter of the Classic Yacht Association: http://www.classicyacht.org/pnw/pnwgallery3.htm.

Pardon the pun but every time I look at that web site I get a woodie!

They wouldn't let me near boats like that. I drool too much! Have fun fella's.

Rick

Boats that go slow usually don't interest me too much, but there's something about some of those classic boats...

Greetings Jacques and Co.,

It has been two whole weeks (20,160 minutes), since the initial "contribution funnel" had its lid epoxied shut.

While we are certain your attention to this specific topic has not been interrupted by any other nautical design/construction topic or personal element of life, have any electronic run-ups been sufficiently tossed at this early point that we might steal a quick look, or, should we (at the very least), be advised to consider one, two or all of the following:

A.) Continue the consumption of our bath-tub Gin to keep vision blurred.

B.) Smash hand or thumb with claw hammer to provide useful distraction from lustful anticipation.

or,

C.) Send you gift cards for your favorite adult beverage wholesale location(s).

A “friendâ€

The 3D "sketch is almost complete: hull completely defined, nice rounded transom, beautiful sheer line. Engine in place.
I am working on the "sedan" layout. This will be a very comfortable version with a large forward cabin followed by a large head with shower. A few steps up lead to the salon with on port side a U shaped galley with bar followed by a large L shaped settee and table. On starboard, steering followed by a wide space with maybe 2 chairs, TV cabinet in corner. Sliding doors lead to a large aft deck, all same level. The roof extends over the aft deck. There is a flying bridge with 2nd steering station, seating and room behind it for a dinghy on the roof.
Foredeck is also very roomy. All together, it looks very nice.
This is my preferred layout but there will be two others: a classic Grand Banks style with double cabin (one aft cabin and smaller saloon) and another sedan with two cabins forward. A little cramped but possible.
I need a few more days to fine tune the shape of the superstructure then the design goes to one of our associates who will produce the final model and drawings.
It will take a few months before I post the plans but we are progressing fats on thsi one.

nice rounded transom, beautiful sheer line....

Visualizing..........

Thank you Jacques for the mental crafting we are now all attempting to do.

In lieu of spinning madly out of asynchronous orbit, I will return to regimens'
A and B, until further notice.

Cheers,

S.D.-

Wow, that was fast ... And the descriptions sounds really, really interesting
Pls post 3D sketch images asap when ready

I lost track of this somehow. What hull type did we decide on?

Possible TW34 Design Interpretation,

I am not positive, but believe I have discovered a partial interpretation for the description provided by Jacques earlier. The stay sail seems a bit forward, and think the “eyesâ€

Hmmm......the photo did not post...hmmm.......there we go........

Salty Dog wrote:Time to fall over to the tool shed for some more bath water, and wait.

Need some company SD? I'll join ya for the wait. How's the bath-tub gin anyways? I got a couple of gallons of ripple in empty epoxy containers to bring along should we run outta gin!

I don't like regimin "b" too much. Might just be better if I hit you with the hammer and there's no need for you to reciprocate! *lol*



You're one sick puppy posting a picture like that!

Rick

I thought a bit of whimsy might help in the passage of sweet time and deliberation.

On a positive note, their is no phisical way I could pilot the new potential TW34 design from inside, and, most of the soap scum and hair have desolved in this last batch of gin.

Sick puppy? oh, I'm really ok with that. C'mon over, I'm sure I can hammer out my differences......

Reminds me of a good ol' WestJet joke:

Q: "Why doesn't Thunder Bay have a professional hockey team?"

A: "Because then Vancouver and Toronto would want one".

Cheers,

S.D.-

Salty Dog wrote:
Reminds me of a good ol' WestJet joke:

Q: "Why doesn't Thunder Bay have a professional hockey team?"

A: "Because then Vancouver and Toronto would want one".

SD.

You forgot Edmonton, Calgary, Winterpeg, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec, Halifax, St. John's and Tuktuyuktuk! *lol*

Sure, we can hammer out our differences and get hammered at the same time. I'm not in a big hurry for this design. I'll only be able to drool over it for a few years. Gotta get a few smaller projects under my belt, like the TW28 for instance! I imagine the 34 would be a considerable increase in resources (Time & Money) to complete.

Rick

jacquesmm wrote:nice rounded transom, beautiful sheer line.

How "round"? Will it have the same break step in the sheer that the 28 does?

jacquesmm wrote:I am working on the "sedan" layout.

A wide body option maybe?

jacquesmm wrote:It will take a few months before I post the plans but we are progressing fats on thsi one.

A set of these plans will make a damn nice Xmas present to myself methinks! How about some basic statistics to keep us satiated? Length, beam, draft, weight, HP, speed, range etc.

Rick

I mentioned this boat from the Pt. Townsend Wooden Boat Festival. It's the interior of Serendipity, a 35-foot Devlin-built boat. The pics are too dark, but it struck me as a really usable layout. It's hard to see from the photos, but there is a lot of living space in the saloon, and the seating is set up to be really comfortable.



The only really bad thing about the cabin layout is the tiny little entry door at the rear of the cabin. It's only about 4-feet high since the cockpit floor is two steps higher than the sole and the hatch does not extend into the cabintop.

(Just so you know that I'm not really posting competing designs -- the only way you can get your own Devlin Czarrina 35 is to have Sam build you one for about $255,000. I'm guessing Jacques won't think this is a competitor thing.)

I wonder if I can fit that interior in my AD16.

Here's a few sketches I tinkered with for the interior layout of our previous project. Might offer some alternatives or ideas.





Rick

The one at the bottom looks very much like what I am drawing.

ArizonaBuilder...

I wonder if I can fit that interior in my AD16.

Just use the shrink ray...

PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:08 am Post subject:
The one at the bottom looks very much like what I am drawing.

That being said, and after careful study, I will move to the suggestion that my posted interpretation is slghtly different than what is actually being drawn.

How could I have been so far astray.....?

Cheers,

S.D.-

Salty Dog wrote:How could I have been so far astray.....?

You said it yourself SD. And I quote:

"A.) Continue the consumption of our bath-tub Gin to keep vision blurred."

It's either that or the damaging effects of the epoxy vapours have finally caught up to you!

Rick