Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:09 pm**

Everybody thinks I have gone crazy¦.and sometimes I wonder if I really have¦ this virtual community of boat builders is not real¦¦well I am going to find out¦stay tuned as Baba starts his first Boat building project.

Quick history: (How did this happen¦?)

I would have to blame my ex-boss Martin¦he showed me this website and talked about the Stitch and glue method for building boats: sounded easy, so I started lurking on http://boatplans-online.com ¦.reading discussion forums¦just being invisible. Two years later.. realized that I had become an addict¦I had to build a boat or I would go crazy. God Damn it¦Here I am¦

Don™t know anything about boats¦never really been in one either¦I have seen people in em ¦and its looks kinda fun. That™s about it¦oh and another thing¦I am not a handy man either¦until six months ago¦I had never even used a drill machine. If I fail this project I will be letting down the geeks of the world¦.Well that just ain™t gonna happen.

Target Start Date: April 1st 2006 (still too cold here)

Target Finish Date May 1st 2007.

Preparations so far:
I have a mental picture of how œMadMax 1

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:09 am**

Hi Baba! As you've discovered by now, this is not so much a hobby as a disease...!

Thanks for the kind words -

- not sure they're deserved, but if I can help, just ask via the forum or direct by my email link.

Best of luck with your build - just take your time and you'll be fine. Enjoy!
Don't forget to post pics of your progress.

Cheers from Oz,
Mike

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:27 am**

Good luck. I have a similar strt date planned. I believe at this time I will build the OD16 as it is the boat that addicted me to the site. I also priced plywood at Noahs but I plan to do as you did and get the fiberglass kit here. I have motor/ trailer and an old bowrider that is too long in the tooth to be a practical repair. My present assests will let me get into the boatbuilding again at a minimum investment for the first boat.

We are in the same area. lets keep in touch and good luck!

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:08 am**

Baba you've got it bad, man. You're already making promises to the wife- excellent. Welcome to the ward.

You'll do fine. Patience is key, and use everyone here if you run into problems.

Posted: **Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:05 am**

The weather is pretty warm in Torornto for this time of year...so picked up the Meranti BS6566. Thought I'd get a head start...

4 hours to scribe the dimensions

and another 4 hours to cut the pieces

This ply splintered quite badly when cutting across the grains..changing to different types of Jig Saw blades did not help. Finally applying hocky tape to the cut lines worked...here is the mug shot of the splintered cuts (done without Hocky Tape).

I found this ply to be too light and fragile...

.....No believers in the family yet...

Posted: **Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:51 am**

Good to see you've started, Baba!

It is easy to splinter any plywood with a jigsaw when cutting across the grain - it needs a fine toothed blade and a fairly slow, steady cut to avoid doing this, and even then it sometimes happens. (I used a metal blade rather than a wood blade because it has much finer teeth). Don't worry about it - the edges will all be covered with epoxy and glass tape, anyway!

Looking forward to more pics....

Posted: **Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:03 am**

Good progress Baba. reminds me of me about a year ago. Rick

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:43 am**

Thanks Rick and Mike....

Brushes with attitude....topless and grounded...trimmed the tops and added epoxy to the bottom.

Yours Truly...not taking any chances with epoxy or the cold winter nights of Toronto...
:

Long panels are now bonded...kept thinking about peanut butter consistency...looked more like melted Toffee when I applied it...I don't know if it was too much or too little...

Sanded the sides, wiped with tissue dipped in Ocetone, dried and then applied epoxy resin followed by the toffee glue...

About 7 hours for all this and clean up...also includes a child lock I installed to the Garage entrance ...:lol

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:18 am**

Baba,

It looks like you are epoxy coating the panels before assembly - you might find it difficult to bend the panels if you do this.

Mike

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:30 am**

Emmmm....I had like 0.5 OZ of resin left in the jar...thought I would just apply it on a few inches of the panel...but the thing just kept on spreading...

Should I sand it down...?

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:09 am**

I had the same thing happen with my V-12. No problems bending the panels. I would say don't worry about it until it becomes a problem.

Cheers

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:16 am**

Gubbs wrote:I had the same thing happen with my V-12. No problems bending the panels. I would say don't worry about it until it becomes a problem.

Cheers

I am thinking if one side of the panel is stiffer than the other...that might cause the boat to be lopsided...

should I double the mistake and to the same Sh*t to the other side...

I.e a super thin coat of Epoxy on one half of the other panel...

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:24 am**

You could epoxy the other side but I don't think that it will make a big difference. If you do the panels differently just look and see that the shape that is produced on both sides is fair amd similar. If not take it apart and epoxy and reassemble. I think you will find however that the difference is slight.

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:03 am**

I had the same situation you have, one coated one not. I did not have any problems.

Cheers

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:03 am**

With the relatively thin 1/4" ply, and the number of frames on the FL14, I doubt you will have a problem. Look for smooth curves and a fair hull. The small boats such as the FL series are very forgiving of errors. It is not a planing hull, so shape will be somewhat less important than on a bigger one that planes. I would not worry about it. Rick

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:17 am**

This ply splintered quite badly when cutting across the grains..changing to different types of Jig Saw blades did not help.

I cut all my pieces using a circular saw with a min 100 tooth blade. Set the blade depth just enough to go through the wood, you can cut most of the curves with the circular saw. For really tight curves I would use the jigsaw.

Long panels are now bonded...kept thinking about peanut butter consistency...looked more like melted Toffee when I applied it...I don't know if it was too much or too little...

Remember, peanut butter for fillets and molasses for glue.

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:31 am**

Guys...THIS is a wicked place to build a boat ....

Thanks for all the comments....

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:39 am**

ArizonaBuilder wrote:
Remember, peanut butter for fillets and molasses for glue.

"Molasses"...emmm so its more dilute than Peanut butter...Is that somewhere in the tutorials...?

I put a thin layer on each side...enough to make the grains disapear...and the consistancy was like peanut butter...Will I get a strong bond...?

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:55 am**

Pre-coat ply with unthickened epoxy. then thin layer of peanut butter or molasses. press together. wait. won't be able to pull apart.

Cheers

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:53 pm**

Gubbs wrote:Pre-coat ply with unthickened epoxy. then thin layer of peanut butter or molasses. press together. wait. won't be able to pull apart.

Cheers

HALALOOYA....

I am on a ROLL guys...

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:28 pm**

baba101 wrote:
ArizonaBuilder wrote:
Remember, peanut butter for fillets and molasses for glue.
"Molasses"...emmm so its more dilute than Peanut butter...Is that somewhere in the tutorials...?

I put a thin layer on each side...enough to make the grains disapear...and the consistancy was like peanut butter...Will I get a strong bond...?

You can look at a tutorial here: http://bateau2.com/content/view/99/28/

Jacques refers to the glue as having a consistency of ketup...

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:24 pm**

Again, I too coated one panel of my V12 with epoxy and not the other, and had no problems bending.

With your jigsaw, I found that if I tried to cut too fast it would sort of tear and splinter the timber instead of making a nice clean cut. When I slowed down and didn't force the jigsaw through the cut I got much better results. I cut the whole boat with one very cheap timber jigsaw blade, and this held true right to the end.

Looks great, keep up the commentary - and Baba, its not just your family waiting to see how you go any more- you've got a whole lot of people from all around the world waiting to see how your boat turns out now!

Only difference is that we all know you'll do it

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:41 pm**

Barney wrote:Looks great, keep up the commentary - and Baba, its not just your family waiting to see how you go any more- you've got a whole lot of people from all around the world waiting to see how your boat turns out now!

no pressure...

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:13 pm**

ks8 wrote:no pressure...

Why is this build taking so long!?

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:30 pm**

Rich, is that a terrier or an Irish wolf hound, or what? Kerry Blue? Maybe you've answered this before.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:21 am**

MadRus wrote:Rich, is that a terrier or an Irish wolf hound, or what? Kerry Blue? Maybe you've answered this before.

She's an Airedale terrier, 15 years old. And true to the breed, she's still active and curious into old age. But she's obviously pretty laid back in the picture, taken while she waited patiently for me to finish my V12.

Rich

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:00 pm**

ArizonaBuilder wrote:.......You can look at a tutorial here: http://bateau2.com/content/view/99/28/

Jacques refers to the glue as having a consistency of ketup...

Yep...and in the Stitch and Glue 101 Tutoral

Its ....

"Epoxy glue is liquid epoxy resin mixed with woodflour to a peanut butter consistency."

The long panels are still bonding in my icy cooool Garage...I am going to give em two more days....

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:39 pm**

If ice will not melt, then epoxy will not cure

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:08 pm**

Bottom on top or inside of the Long Panels...

I have seen some builders place the bottom ontop of the Long Panels and other have placed it inside (like the Stitch and Glue 101 Tutorial).

Whats your advice...I did not leave any gap on the butt blocks of the side panels to accomodate the bottom inside....but am willing to sand if that is the only way to do it...

Thanks in advance...

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:02 pm**

I put the plywood on the bottom of the boat, traced the outside, cut and stitched. Then when glassing I put a generous radius at the joint. Rick

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:02 pm**

I did the same as Rick. You will find this easier than trying to stitch the bottom to the inside edges of the sides and leaving a gap. For a displacement hull like the FL14 hard spots are not a real issue, and if the bottom panel sits evenly on the edges of the sides, as mine did, it will be just fine.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:22 pm**

Yes I went ahead and epoxied the other wing...slap on the wrist - Tisk Tisk...Bad Baba..!

Used these cups to accurately measure small amounts of Epoxy+Hardner (less than half an oz).

48 hours later and the Epoxy is still getting harder.....

Let this be a warning to all you Torontonians out there....Don't start your builds yet...its still too cold. it may seem like summer but ice does not melt in the Garage just yet...Thanks shine for that input. I now have an ice cube in the garage and its melting extremely slowly.

Posted: **Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:41 pm**

Baba, Mark a single cup with two lines. one for resin, the other hardener. Saves on transferring and cups. I did 6 ounce batches. Filled a cup with 4 oz. of water, marked the side. Put in another 2 oz. , marked it (2:1). Emptied and dried, marked a bunch and went to town. Rick

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:00 am**

rjezuit wrote:Baba, Mark a single cup with two lines. one for resin, the other hardener..... Rick

Yeah.... thanks

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:36 am**

Hey Baba,

All you need it 55-60 degrees for the reaction to really get going. You could get those but blocks cured in half a day if you put a small electric bathroom heater on them.

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:04 am**

I had the Marinepoxy cure last March/April with cold weather, frost/freezing outside in an unheated garage. It just took a little longer when it was in the 40's inside. Rick

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:46 pm**

Bond baby Bond....! After 48 hours decided to throw money at this slow hardner....

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:56 pm**

Because the panels are sitting on the floor, that area may stay even colder for longer even though the temps rise outdoors. As Shine said, aim some sort of heater at it. I used an IR element heater since it heats surfaces it is aimed at, and not the air. But of course, don't place it a foot away and set the thing ablaze. I kept mine 3 to 4 feet away, and the wood got very warm though 35 outside the tent (before I buitl the cathedral and used lightbulbs to heat under the double tent). With a heater, watch the clear wrap! It may be flammable with a low flashpoint. Monitor every hour or so when you first set it up. But in those cold temps, do use some sort of safe heater setup, and that goop will set right up in a day or two.

Whenever using any sort of heater, of course be extra careful and check it frequently the first hour, including how hot the plug is getting.

ks

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:52 pm**

Baba will do whatever it takes....

Raised the wings, removed the plastic ; as suggested...This crazy heater is blowing luke warm air...I am working from my Garage today...and keeping a very close Eye..the epoxy is pretty hard by now...but I can still dent it with a sharp object.

Made a new friend today....The Planer. Its good for scraping off Epoxy mess from Madmax...

Posted: **Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:32 pm**

You will love the planer for taking off the raised edge off of the taped joints also. I did it that way and it worked great. Look into cabinet scrapers too. They work wonders on sags and drips. Saves on sanding, and you will appreciate it. Be careful when the weather breaks and you are working when its warm, the epoxy becomes an entirely different animal. Rick

Posted: **Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:21 am**

Finaly Mr Luke (my crazy heater that only blows luke warm air) Came through for me. The Butt was Bonded pretty strong..here is the other side....

Stitched the bow with consistant slack using the pencil..kept them 10" apart and 3/8" from the edge.

Gentlemen please welcome ....MadMax...

After the Butt was bonded it took 3 hours to get some of the frames tied... I reckon another three hours before I can take measurements for the bottom...

Posted: **Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:46 am**

Baba, Flip it, measure diagonals, tighten the ties, measure, measure, measure and trace the bottom. Isn't it great when it finaly takes shape? Rick

Posted: **Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:07 am**

Roger than Rick....

This weekend will be dedicated for measurements only...

Yes it feels good.....the cool thing is that no one has seen it...the garage stays locked.....

Posted: **Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:22 pm**

Excellent! It's coming together very nicely.

Posted: **Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:30 pm**

Go Baba Go!

Do lots of diagnol checking before mixing the goop for fillets, and hopefully the weather will be in the 50's or 60's F consistently soon, which makes fillets and taping much more productive. With large exposed surfaces of wet epoxy, you really don't want it dropping below freezing anymore. You could get frost, and then as it melts, you get water contamination in the still wet epoxy, so be patient with what you tackle next.

Have you decided to do spot welds and then wet on wet, or embed the tie wraps? I'm a fan of spot welds, though it adds more time, but its nice to know the fillets are clean and free of tie wraps when done. I have 6 pieces of wire stitches in forever, cause the panels were very stubborn there. Looks like you're having fun now!

Looking good!

ks

Posted: **Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:58 pm**

Baba,
I found it useful to run a stringline down the centre of the boat and check that it was perfectly symetrical. It only takes a few minutes to do and will ensure that you don't have any twist from stem to stern. Check the line is at right angles to the transom and that the distances to the sides on either side of the line at the frames are equal:

Mike

Posted: **Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:14 pm**

Inorder to keep a consistent gap between the joints I used the Sacrificial plastic spoons.

A combination of Tie Wraps and Dry wall screws were needed to control the gaps and the symmetry of the frame. Screws to push and Tie wraps to pull.

So I started the measurement process...Used the strings like Mike Said...added one at the bottom too...I could easily move the Transom to get a perfect symmetry...but only a slight movement was needed to get everything twisted again.

Finally with the help of supports, MadMax was sitting perfectly square...and Baba scribed the Bottom...

Checked for smoothness and symmetry using a PVC pipe....Picked up my Jigsaw...

and Suddenly I heard voices (in my head). It was Rick and Lbrewer and Mike...saying MEASURE MEASURE...TURN UPSIDE DOWN AND MEASURE...Also remembered an old friend saying Banana boats go round in circles...

I had been afraid of turning Madmax upside down..because the frame were too flimsy...

But like real trooper......Baba Decided to put away the bottom panels and turned the fragile skeleton of Madmax upside down...some of the screws came off but no real damage....

This was definitely a good move...accurate measurements can only be done with the frame upside down...

Baba is happy...

Posted: **Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:45 pm**

baba101 wrote:Baba is happy...

Congratulations! BTW - isn't it said in the 3 pages manual, that you should start assembling upside down?

Best,
Andrey

Posted: **Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:46 pm**

Good weekend to be working also. Nice spring weather this week. Rick

Posted: **Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:06 pm**

ks8 wrote:......Have you decided to do spot welds and then wet on wet, or embed the tie wraps?....ks

Well I am making the plan as I go along...but as I see this thing happening in my mind....

I am thinking I should take one section at a time...spot weld, remove the ties/screws and complete the section before moving to the next.

I guess the epoxy welds have to be pretty hard before I take the ties/screws out...

I am going to take this project slow...and experiment and learn as I go along...

I feel very furtunate to have experienced builders provide their feedback on my work...Very valuable indeed....

Its like attending one of those cooking classes...you pay to attend...learn a new skill and go home with the food you make...

Posted: **Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:03 pm**

Do the spot welds. It locks everything in and then you can fillet abnd tape. Wet on wet with the cool weather is pretty easy and saves from amine blush. Rick

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:36 am**

After lots and lots of measurements.....Madmax gets a perfectly square Bottom.

Will butt the bottom tonight...and stitch madmax next weekend....

I found a really nice spray glue for attaching sand paper to the Fairing board I will make with scrap plywood...Hopefully pictures next week.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:35 pm**

Exclamation I found a really nice spray glue for attaching sand paper to the Fairing board I will make with scrap plywood...Hopefully pictures next week.

I like to use 3M's 77 spray adhesive for attaching sandpaper. It will peel off fairly easy.

If you find that the glue is working too well. I will put a piece of 100 grit pape r on the board and glue the new pieces to the 100grit piece already on the board. The roughness of the underlying paper will help in the removal of the paper so you can put on a new piece.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:21 pm**

Butt block for the bottom: I decided to leave 1/4" on either side, and rounded the corners just incase...(my big modification)

I had scribed the shape of the bottom from measurements I took from Madmax. Made sure the bottom was symmetrical. Was very happy to see that it was a perfect fit...

Lets see if the frame is still square when I turn it upside down.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:29 pm**

With Majority of the cuttings out of the way....

I would like to work really slowly on the rest of the build....The aim is to enjoy the build and learn as much as possible about boat building. I reckon this could be a nice retirement hobby.

After seeing the ply looking like a boat for the first time...my wife advised me to have it inspected by a "professional" before taking it to water....

Lets see if I hate sandingâ€¦Here is my friend...

Posted: **Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:34 pm**

Hi Baba,

I've just noticed that you modified two front frames - my plans indicate "horns" on them , just like the rest of them, while your look more like a transom. What was the reason for it?

Best,
Andrey

Posted: **Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:45 pm**

bredstein wrote:... my plans indicate "horns" on them ...while your look more like a transom... What was the reason for it?...

I am planning to create one large casting deck (using the front two frames) the horns were taking up the space in the front which is already very tight...

I am jealous that you are building your boat in burmuda shorts...while I have to wear 4 layers of clothing to get into my Garage...

Posted: **Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:59 pm**

If you spot weld, those spots have to be totally cured before pulling out stitches. Remember to keep measuring as you go to make sure things stay square and true. With that cold garage, take your time for those cures. That one small heater is not going to heat the whole room enough for a quick cure of the spotwelds.

It is looking very much a boat with the bottom cut and fitted. Nice work.

ks

Posted: **Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:34 am**

The Bottom is now stitched up

I flipped the hull, and spent about three hours tweaking with tie wraps, screws and plastic spoons to get a perfectly square hull.

I also made sure there is no wood to wood contact anywhere...Cleaned up the boat with damp kitchen roll. The outside seems are now duck tapedâ€¦

Baba is ready to rock and roll with epoxy...

Posted: **Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:28 am**

baba101 wrote: I am planning to create one large casting deck (using the front two frames)

I still don't dig - what are you going to do with this deck? The plan looks nice.

baba101 wrote: I am jealous that you are building your boat in burmuda shorts...
while I have to wear 4 layers of clothing to get into my Garage...

Very soon I'll be envious about your climate - you can put on more layers when it's cold, but what can you take off when its 110 in your garage?!

BTW, this winter we had one days with only 37 degrees, and the schools were closed...

Posted: **Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:30 am**

baba101 wrote: I also made sure there is no wood to wood contact anywhere

Baba, now I'm completely lost - am I missing something from the plans/tutorials? What is so bad in wood to wood contact?

Posted: **Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:57 am**

If you have wood to wood contact you can create hard points, points of high stress. his is not as important with and FL14, but very important with a planing hull. You will never get going fast enough with an FL14 to cause any major damage. Rick

Posted: **Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:36 am**

bredstein wrote: ......am I missing something from the plans/tutorials? What is so bad in wood to wood contact?

Like Rick said this is an overkill for a displacement hull. But I am just learning...One day I'd like to build the OB19.

To keep a consistent gap between ply, I have inserted long ends of plastic spoons. Used Screws to push wood away and Tie wraps to pull it closer together. I have shown a closeup of this screw+spoon method, ine one of my build pictures..

bredstein wrote: I still don't dig - what are you going to do with this deck? The plan looks nice....

Best way to think about this modification is to consider the front two seats are joined together, to make one big seat stretching from the bow

Posted: **Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:55 pm**

I am about to start the glue of the Hull..

After applying the Fibre glass (woven cloth) should I keep saturating it Wet on wet until the weave is full...or let the first coat cure completely ...and fill the weave only when the entire hull is supposed to be coated with epoxy...?

Posted: **Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:19 pm**

Make sure that it minimally goes transparent, that is, get's fully wetout. When it comes to filling the weave, some fill it somewhat right then with epoxy, but this is only necessary if you want brightwork seams, otherwise, you can fill the weave with fairing compound, except where other structural bonds must be added later to it. The How-to describes strategies. If you try to fill the weave right away, with straight epoxy, the glass may float up on pooled epoxy. When I fill weave with epoxy, I wait for the first batch to just barely setup, so that the glass will not float. My first few *lessons* were not so well learned!

If you wait til it cures, then before bonding anything to the existing cured seam, just make sure you wash the blush off, let it dry very well (NOT with a heat gun, as you know what that will do!), and then rough it up well, trying not to cut too deeply into any glass fibers, with 50 or 80 grit and vacuum and wash and dry again, then you'll be ready to bond other structures to it, or epoxy coat and quickfair fill the weave before any other structures, like a seat chamber, cover them up for good. On a first build, it can be awkward to try and wet on wet everything without first having an excellent grasp of where and when and how everything else will get added and finished. Don't panic. Take your time, and give the epoxy plenty time to cure in those cold temps. Have fun!

Posted: **Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:03 pm**

Baba, I taped and took off the high sport well before fairing/filling the weave. Less epoxy is better, it makes a stronger lamination. As long as the joint is not starved and it all wets out transpanently, you have enough epoxy. I let it cure a while(at least a couple of days) took off the high spots with a planer/surform tool and let it fully cure and went over it with a cabinet scraper. Then I filled the weave with fairing mix. This avoided sanding away the glass. Rick

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:45 am**

This is my first attampt at Tac welding. Next step will be to build the fillets and add Woven cloth...

My son agreed to take the pictures....while I work...

Long live the Squigi....

It was nice to have the gaps between the ply...this way Baba did not have to remove the frames to pre-coat with epoxy.

I also added the epoxy + glue on the outside seams of the Bow (where the Butt block joins the long panels, I intend to add a Fiber Glass cloth there). Just to make sure its super smooth and no air pockets are created when adding the fiber glass...

This is an entirely new set of skills for Baba....very refreshing and great for the sole....

Baba is very Happy

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:23 am**

You're going along like I did last year. You WILL be getting epoxy on you. Get yourself a Tyvek suit. It saves on clothes. Rick

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:12 pm**

Next ....."Battle of Sands".

Please welcome Lt. General Fair Sand.

Made from 1/4" Meranti BS6566 (4.5" X 33")

Attaching the Sand paper : "Elmer's" to the rescue...

The manufacturer claims: A temporary bond can be achieved by a light spray followed by 5 minutes of air before bonding...Fingers crossed.

I also have to look at cabinet Scrapers ...Don't know what they look like...hopefully the boys and girls at Home Depot do..

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:13 pm**

nice board

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:47 pm**

Baba will have large arms after his FL14. You will learn to hate sanding. Ask most people, it is by far the worst part of building a boat. The rest is fun, sanding is drudgery. Rick

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:27 pm**

rjezuit wrote:Baba will have large arms after his FL14. You will learn to hate sanding. Ask most people, it is by far the worst part of building a boat. The rest is fun, sanding is drudgery. Rick

Rick If you are trying to scare Baba...its not going to work....I will work slow and if it takes a year than so be it...

I am more intimidated with painting...Specially after some of the builders have had their paint peel off due to contamination...

I am sure its easy when you know how...

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:06 pm**

I'm not trying to scare you, just telling you like it is. I really enjoyed building my FL14, but after sanding for a week or so, it got REAL boring. You sand and sand, and don't see the obvious progress that you could see with the other phases of the build. Once the weather gets nice you will want to float MadMAx, and the build schedule will compress. Summers aren't that long up here in the north, and you have to get in the fun you can in a few months. Rick

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:04 pm**

The sanding proves the man.

And it will prove Baba!

Enjoy it. Run your hand over it and feel where it needs a bit more board. When I visit friends, sometimes I catch myself with this terrible habit of putting a napkin under my hand and running it over the kitchen table laminate to see how fair it is. It's ok. Most people know I'm odd..

Don't forget a good respirator once all that dust gets a flyin'. Then you can make Darth Vader speeches to shop visitors.

Luke... I'm your father.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:20 pm**

Baba's Next steps:

Edited based on comments by Rick and KS8

1. Complete the Tac weld of the entire hull. Making sure the Hull stays straight.

2. Apply Fiber glass tape to outside of the bow joints:
a. Smooth out the bow joints (already pre-coated with epoxy resin and filled with glue) on the outside of the hull. DO NOT use quikfair/or fairing compound .
b. Sand, pre-coat with epoxy and then apply Fibre glass tape to it.
c. Fill weave as the cloth cures. Let cure completely.
d. If cloth cured completely : Fill weave with quikfair.

3. Tape inside joints.
a.. Pre-cut and mark all fiberglass tape lengths.
b. Once the Tac welds have fully cured, remove all screws and tie wraps.
c. Lightly sand the taping area using a moist block sander. Wipe before and after sanding with damp cloth.
d. Create smooth glue joints using plastic spoons. Make sure you have a generous radius on the outside joints.
e. Once the joints reach bubblegum consistencyâ€¦pre-coat with epoxy resin and apply the fiberglass tape.
f. Gently remove all air-bubbles using a squigi until the tape is transparent. If cloth gets misty gently tap with a brush wipe leave.
g. Fill weave as the cloth starts to cure. Let seem fully cure
h. If the cloth dries before completely filling the weave then apply quickfair. (avoid quickfair on places where structural bonding is needed.

Baba can't wait to try this shit.....

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:40 pm**

Baba, Make sure you have a generous radius on the outside joints.This makes it stronger and easier to form the tape around. I glassed the inside and vertical joints on the transom and bow first (in and out), and then flipped and did the chine. I guess it doesn't matter, but it was one less movement while only tacked. Rick

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:16 pm**

Review the plans well. Note any spots along those tape seams where other structural components will need to be added, including mods that may take a load, like a rod holder that you may fish with *dead stick*, and do NOT quickfair those sections of tape until the final components are bonded and glassed in. You don't want to structurally bond anything over quickfair, if it can be reasonably avoided.

Wipe the spot welds with a damp cloth(s) turning the cloth often, before sanding, to get most of any possible amine blush off the surface of the cured epoxy welds. Then you can sand 'em a bit, else the amine residue may get into the grooves the sanding block cuts and be even harder to remove.

When you squeege, don't get too crazy with it and end up overworking the epoxy or you can actually start to whip very tiny bubbles into the epoxy and it will start to get cloudy. If areas begin to get cloudy from whipping, tap them with the edge of the squeege, straight on, to push any remaining larger bubbles out, then do a quick swipe to smooth the surface, and call it done. You'll know when it looks right. If some spots get a little cloudy, you should be fine, but now that you are aware of it, try to avoid it. You've got to know when to walk away, and know when to run...

Have fun!

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:00 pm**

ks8 wrote:..... You don't want to structurally bond anything over quickfair, if it can be reasonably avoided.......Have fun!

This is good advice...thanks...

Watch out for Clowdiness under tape, and tap the bubbles out when needed.

Wipe epoxy with damp cloth before and after sanding.

This "Amine blush dude" Baba hasn't seen it yet....I am using slow hardner and the temperatures are low....do you think that could be the reason for no amine...

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:56 pm**

You don't want to be tapping like your mincing garlic!

Just enough to get the obvious bubbles out, if any. Some people use special epoxy rollers, some people use the ends of the bristles of a cheap brush. I use the cheap brush and a squeege, sometimes my fingers (in a protective glove is best if you must use your fingers). If you get any whipped cloudiness, it may be under or over the tape. Developing cloudiness is a sign to ease up on overworking that area, or add a bit more fresh epoxy, jam it with the ends of the brush bristles a little to replace the air pocket with epoxy, swipe with the squeege to get the glass down to the wood and smoothed out, and call it done. Not too much epoxy or the glass may float up on the pooled epoxy.

You may have been spared the blush so far, but it doesn't hurt to be safe as you can't always see it. About 10 percent of my batches over the years very obviously blushed. Humidity is a factor also. You could see and feel the greasy waxy residue plainly. But even when you can't, there may be enough there to hinder an excellent secondary bond, so the washing is always a good idea. 40 percent of my batches had zero blush, but I washed anyway. A bad blush may require going over it a few times with clean wet or damp rags. A damp rag, as opposed to wet, keeps you from soaking all the surrounding wood and then having to wait days for the wood to dry out. But with a rag that is only damp, keep turning it to a clean section as you move along, since there is no flow of water to carry away the amine.

scrub a dub dub...

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:01 pm**

Baba, It's a wonder the epoxy cures at all with the slow hardener. Mine took a while with medium if it got real cold. You'll be able to feel the blush if you rum your finger along it. It slides like a coating of thin oil is on it. Work wet on wet where you can, this avoids the problem and gives a better bond. Rick

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:40 pm**

my understanding is that the slow hardener doesn't blush. mine cures overnight, but i live in l.a., gets very hot in my garage!!

Posted: **Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:18 pm**

Well this slow hardner takes its own sweat time to cure...I tac welded the insides 48 hours ago...and they are still soft.

This weekend is a wash......

Just as well...time to play with my kids....

Posted: **Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:20 pm**

cover the boat with a tarp that will trap in the air under the boat. Put a 100 watt light bulb under the boat and tarp. It will not be long before the temp rises under the tarp and the cure times will fall.

Posted: **Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:55 pm**

Here you go Chris.

I made sure the bulb does not touch the plastic. Current temperature in the garage is close to freezing.

Posted: **Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:58 pm**

If possible, keep that bulb at least a foot away from the tarp. Maybe cut some cheap fir stripping the same beam as the boat at four or five stations (an inch or two extra), lay them across the top of the sheer, and then lay the tarp over that. A hot bulb can easily melt plastic or worse, or ignite wood under some conditions. Mount the bulb appropriately, and let it do its wonder!

My building *cathedral* is spacious. Four 100 watt work lamps bring the temp up about 20 deg in the winter. I just checked... outdoors it is 28 F. It is 56 F in the cathedral.

The bulbs are kept well away from the tarp, especially when unattended.

cook that goo! safely.

ks

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:47 am**

Here it is under the hood....

This method of heating epoxy has proved to be very effective.

This should be switched off when not under supervision. I will continue to move it around every four hours.

Baba is very pleased with this new discovery...thanks to Chris...

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:41 am**

Everything I know I learned by compulsivly reading every post on this board for the last 3 years. I do not recall who first suggested it perhaps it was J. M. I am pleased that it is working out for you.

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:19 am**

Double it up! Got another chair? Another bulb on a spring mount like that? Those fixtures are fairly cheap at the big box store. Get a couple more in there! It looks like the chair back keeps the tarp plenty far away... The extra heat will help, in that cold garage, when you do the taping. I like having the remote thermometer in my boat. I can quickly check the temp as the goo cooks, from the kitchen table, all winter long. I have another in the garage in case it is border line warm enough to do some laminations in there without lights and tarp. If it drops below freezing, I bring the smaller curing components into the basement.

Have fun!

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:56 pm**

As suggested....Baba's Goo cooker is now Turbo Charged.

Although the epoxy had already cured...I decided to give it another 24hours of love.

Baba will be away from Madmax for the next 4 weeks...will start again in Mid April.

Posted: **Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:40 am**

baba101 wrote:Baba will be away from Madmax for the next 4 weeks...will start again in Mid April.

Since Madmax is now a recognizeable entity, have you broken the news yet regarding the prolonged absence, to assure *max* that it is not neglect?

Posted: **Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:58 pm**

Madmax needs a rest...and knows Baba will be back...!

Posted: **Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:29 pm**

That would be a sight.......... MadMax sitting in the corner of the garage whimpering for Baba. Rick

Posted: **Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:58 pm**

I had a few spare hours last night...thought I'd try my skills with Fiberglass...

Started glassing the outside of the bow...so far so good.

Feeling a little more confident...Baba proceeded to build the seams for the Transom box. Believe it or not, took me about 2 hours to get this far...

Waited for glue to harden like gum, coated with epoxy again and applied the tape: ERRRR BUBBLES...

The glass is pretty hard now...Based on the knowledge base in the forum...Here is Babaâ€™s plan. (Comments welcome...)

Let epoxy cure fully

Sand down the bubbles.

Fill holes with thick glue (epoxy wooodflour)

Apply fiberglass patches to the patched areas.

How Bad is this ..

Posted: **Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:16 pm**

Its pretty darn good for your first time

your fillets look nice, laying the tape on a little earlier might have helped with the bubbles. Honestly for little bubbles like those, I would not worry about grinding them out. Good idea starting will an area that will not show.

Joel

Posted: **Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:24 pm**

Shine wrote:.... I would not worry about grinding them out....Joel

Phew...! Thanks Man

Posted: **Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:53 pm**

Baba, pretty good for your first time and as Joel stated, I wouldn't worry about the bubbles.

I would like to make a couple of suggestions after looking at the photo's.
It looks like your fillets in a couple of places are not the 1/2" radius. In the second photo from the bottom, it looks like the fillet is a little small and could have contributed to the bubbles. The 4 oz woven tape can be pretty stiff and without a nice 1/2" radius, it can pull away a little. Also it may have been that you let the fillets harden a little too long and got some high and low points in the fillet.

If you are using a spoon to create the fillets it can work but I found that fillets made with a spoon were a little small and not uniform along their length due to tipping of the spoon.

I like to use a 3-4" length of 1" pvc pipe which gives me consistent fillets of the correct size. After I have created the fillets, I will take the precut pieces of tape and wet them out on a table covered in plastic. I will then take the prewetted tape and place it over the seam. The tape may not be touching the fillet material at this point. So I will use my brush and push the outside edges towards the center of the seam and you will see the tape contact the fillet. If you make sure you have good contact with the wood and fillet and don't disturb the fillet you should get a nice bubbleless
seam.

It just takes practice and you will develop your own style..

Good job so far.

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:40 am**

Hi Baba, your boat is looking great! I also started fglassing, will post some pics soon. From how you describe I saw that my way differs a little bit.

baba101 wrote:Waited for glue to harden like gum, coated with epoxy again and applied the tape: ERRRR BUBBLES...

I put the glue with a plastic knife, and helped myself with my own finger

Didn't wait, just put some epoxy on top, and placed the precut dry tape, made it stick to the filleted seam, and then put more epoxy with small pieces of a sponge. I found it good - you can apply more pressure than with a brush. Made it transparent, and that's it. Now, six hours later, it became hard and I'll proceed with the next box this evening.

baba101 wrote: Sand down the bubbles.
Fill holes with thick glue (epoxy wooodflour)
Apply fiberglass patches to the patched areas.

Why bother? The strength will remain the same, the insulation also won't improve, and after all it will not be seen by anybody!

Good luck!

Andrey

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:05 am**

Pretty good for first seams! Pretty good for second seams!

My first seams were not wet on wet, so it took awhile to grind and sand the fillets nice and smooth for the taping, but they were very smooth then. Small ridges can cause air pockets to form into bubbles.

Most of those bubbles I remove by dipping the cheap 1 inch brush in straight epoxy, for wetting out, and then jabbing the bubbles a few times with the end of the bristle, with a fair amount of zeal. It forces the epoxy to displace the air, but this is where you can overwork it also and whip in those very tiny air bubbles resulting in the *cloudy* appearance, if you are not careful. But the jabbing does get them out usually. Then the easy swipe to even out the surface epoxy distribution.

Now that I do wet on wet, and have had some practice at it, I do not wait for the fillets to get gummy, but that is because I have learned how to fine tune form the fillet through the tape before the tape is finally wetout. I had some problems with the gummy pre cure, because if the fillet wasn't perfect, if it had any ridge at all outside the curve, from the fillet forming tool of choice, then air could hide along that ridge, and need to be displaced out with epoxy somehow, but you couldn't really eliminate the ridge because it was now a bit too permanent. Taping over a freshly laid fillet is just another way of doing wet on wet, which reduces the potential of those hard to flatten ridges and air pockets, because you can still flatten the ridge into non-existence by pressing the tape into it, but it does require some final smoothing and reforming after the final tape wetout since the fillet is so pliable under the tape while you're trying to wet it out well. As said, you will develop your own technique soon enough, but it looks like you have an excellent start! Some builders can get very smooth fillets with no ridges before they gum. I can't do that so well, so I go fresh, splat, squish, but it took some practice for that also.

When epoxy starts setting abit, and I still am jabbing a few bubbles, even then there is a technique or motion with the brush that can *jab epoxy in* but minimize the brush sticking to the tape and pulling it back up again. You just jab, and then slightly twist the brush as you lift. It flattens the tape down, displaces the bubble, but minimizes pulling the tape back up and forming the bubble pocket again. But too much and this motion whips. We could fill pages with every little pizzazz of what everyone has discovered that works well for them. I can't stand the unwieldly prewetout cloth, though it works well if you keep things clean and well placed the first shot. I'm not that good an aim when laying down gooey tape on soft fillets. Everyone gets a style and preference. You get the idea. With each seam you'll discover some other little trick that seems so simple, but makes an appreciable difference for you, so when you finally get the VG37 or DE48 plans, you'll have a good level of confidence...

.

Very nice first seams!

Wait a minute... I thought Baba needed a rest?! It's too late now. Plainly, you have the disease...

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:16 am**

I have had the best results with these fillet tools:

You won't have to deal with that little ridge of putty beside the fillet that you get with the spoon. Filleting becomes as easy as frosting a cake.
I usually prime the bare wood for the width of the tape before starting the putty fillet. 2" on each side of the seam for 4" tape. While the putty is still a bit mushy I bend (don't crease) the dry tape and lay the bend in the putty first and then smooth the edges onto the sticky primed wood. Wet the tape and use the spatula to squeegee the excess resin out and finish shaping the fillet.
YMMV

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:36 am**

Thanks Gentlemen, Great comments...Baba is now totally Psyched about playing with Epoxy.

I have to warn you though... Baba has to stay away from building MadMax till mid Aprilâ€¦.

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:48 am**

baba101 wrote:Baba has to stay away from building MadMax till mid Aprilâ€¦.

Baba, forget about it! Haven't you heard from a specialist, that it is a desease? So come on, finish your boat and order plans for a new one

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:46 am**

ArizonaBuilder wrote: The (9) oz woven tape can be pretty stiff and without a nice 1/2" radius, it can pull away a little.

We cant wait to get the 6 oz. biax tape in, Its going to take corners much better - not to mention be stronger than the 9 oz. tape

Joel

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:02 am**

bredstein wrote:.... finish your boat and order plans for a new one

Hey Andrey,

Have you decided what you want to build next...I am going to winterize my Garage and get wife's car out before I decide on my next boat.

This is going to sound crazy...but I am really excited about Sanding..I think it will be really cool....

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:52 am**

baba101 wrote:Have you decided what you want to build next

Yes, I want to make a small (10') sailboat, and learn to sail.

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:03 pm**

Shine wrote:
ArizonaBuilder wrote: The (9) oz woven tape can be pretty stiff and without a nice 1/2" radius, it can pull away a little.

We cant wait to get the 6 oz. biax tape in, Its going to take corners much better - not to mention be stronger than the 9 oz. tape

Joel

Can you bright finish the biax tape, like you can the woven tape?

Jerry

Posted: **Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:49 pm**

It will only be 6 oz., but there will be a stitching that will not go 100% clear.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:42 am**

Baba,

I noticed you posted a picture of a modified OB19 intended to one day be your great lakes boat. First, I like the layout you show. Second, I'd like your opinion on which boats in the 17-21' range you think would be nice boats for lake Ontario, if you ever fish it. I was thinking the Nina, the pilot 21, the OB19 or the OB17. What do you think about those choices? I live in Mass, but would like to head out to NY every summer for a week or so and do some fishing, with two or three people total on board.

I used to charter, but that boat was big- bigger than anything I could build.
So I guess what I'm asking is, in your experience why the OB19, and do see any problems with any of the boats I've listed?

-Dave

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:55 am**

Hi Dave,

I am not a fisherman (yet) and have never owned a boat (other than my River Kayak). So my choices are only theoretical.

I had been looking for a Ski/Fish boat (Incidentally I donâ€™t know anything about skiing eitherâ€¦.last time I went water skiing was about 15 years ago and have no idea what boat it was..)

As you know Lake Ontario is almost an Oceanâ€¦and its easy to get 2-3 foot chops on a regular dayâ€¦so that ruled out the PH series and anything else with a flat bottom.

I was looking for a compromise all rounder boatâ€¦i.e. OK for wakeboarding on the flats and reasonably good for chops of the great lakesâ€¦I guess Nina and pilot would not have the acceleration to pull a skier. The C19 was too deep, harder to build and harder to get in an out of for Skiiersâ€¦

I also looked at the Pangaâ€¦but I figured it was too wet for the northâ€¦OB17 is probably a good choice tooâ€¦but if I am going to spend three years building a boatâ€¦it better be worth itâ€¦OB19 gave me the additional deck spaceâ€¦option for a bigger outboard and more confidence to go further.

Most ski boats have an open front and the console is further upâ€¦but that is only practical for the flats (which is where this sport really lives). Babaâ€™s Closed flat deck is good for bad weather (keeps the storms out and improves the buoyancy) and provide some fishing space. Console and seating closer to the transom (compared to Skii boats) will provide better comfort for passengers in choppy water.

The Wakeboard tower will be located closer to the center of the boatâ€¦Tower frames will sit on the gunwale, so the boat gets on a plan faster.

OB19 is not your boat if you are going to be spending more than a day on board...

Others on the forum will be able to tell you more about Nina/Pilot etc..they are proabably your better choices for what you have in mind.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:14 am**

Thanks Baba, I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

-Dave

Posted: **Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:51 am**

April 15th (restart date for building of MadMax) is closeâ€¦and Baba is eager to get startedâ€¦I have been building the boat over and over in my mind for the last three weeksâ€¦

I have two questions that Iâ€™d like help with:

The plans give an option for a full-length half height (above the transom seat) Â¾â€

Posted: **Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:31 pm**

1. Weight is always an issue. But it's a trade off for what you're trying to accomplish by thickening the transom.

2. I use, I think it's fir, 5/4 ballister stock for my cleats. Hand picked, so it's nice and straight. I think it's like .40/ft. or something, it's not that bad. It seems to hold up just fine and it's got a nice finish to it that doesn't require much attention if any. I've used it for my cleats as well as my rubrail on the GV13 which is now 3 or 4 years old and shows no signs of decay or even chipping paint. Of course, it's garaged, but the cleat material seems good to go. You can get 3' lengths of this stock at HD, but I haven't seen it in longer lengths there. I get 16' from my local lumber yard.

Posted: **Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:40 pm**

Double up the transom fully if you want. It only adds a little weight. Mine is 3/4" thick and I was thinking of adding another piece of 3/8". I have no strength problems, but it will look more substantial. If you are trailering, the added weight is of no consequence. Add a trolling motor battery to the boat, and you've added half agai the hull weight, so the little extra wood is of no consequence.

Posted: **Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:26 pm**

I used D Fir for cleats, because it was avail and cheap, and rot resistant. But if you use thick D Fir, you want to seal it well to minimize it splitting open over time. On hull curve sections of cleat, I ripped it half the thickness needed, vertically, and then re-laminated the two pieces with grain direction balanced opposite to help stabilize it, and in order to preform the curve needed, on a jig, but that's me.

I never want to have to see or touch them again once the seat tops are on. But full length cleats are not needed on many of these boats, as you may have noticed in the howto files. You may need to buy lots of 2x4's to be able to rip out good clear sections, but the 2x4's are cheap. Choose them wisely with effective lumber kungfu. I don't know about the spruce for cleats. Really... don't know, but it is not as rot resistant.

When you bond cleats to hull, prepare the hull surface well, making sure it is clean, and use a fillet under the cleat. Some builders have had cleats pop off (easily repaired). There is no tape helping to increase the bond surface with a cleat. Cleat popping is not a common problem, but just clean the surfaces well, and use a fillet, as always. The taping on the top of the seat tops, to the hull, helps much to make up for a lack of tape underneath. It's all very easy.

Other than the curved sections, none of my cleats are ripped and reglued, but they are sealed. They are approx 1.25 x 1.25 inches. So far they are fine. Even though D Fir is somewhat rot resistant, seal it anyway to stabilize. The thicker the D Fir, the greater the chance of a split developing as it dimensionally expands and contracts with moisture or heat, so seal it. I have some pictures of that nastiness, but never posted them.

I don't forsee a problem with doubling transom. It will add weight. Use good ply there, and fill voids as best you can on transom plywood. I'm not a designer. Ultimately the designer is best voice regarding the transom of your boat, if one of them can respond soon. I think J is across the lake yet.

Remember, as a displacement hull, you'll never want to hang a HUGE engine off that transom anyway. That hull will not jump out of the hole, but only dig in deeper with more engine. So the spec transom/option will do the trick, unless, like me, you purchase a HEAVY 4x4 that happens to use the same block as the 9.9 HP. With fuel, over 80 pounds! I did not beef up my transom just to have fun!

I may yet do the small Honda 4 stroke 2 HP, at 1/4 the weight!

Posted: **Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:28 pm**

ks8 wrote:.... On hull curve sections of cleat, I ripped it half the thickness needed, vertically, and then re-laminated the two pieces with grain direction balanced opposite to help stabilize it....

This is a great idea...Baba is going to do this everywhere....

Overengineering you say...God damn it yes......but good learning experience for me...

The FL14 has an option for doubling the transom but only half height..as Rick said the full height will add only a little more weight and increase the strenth...He wants to do that on his FL14...which makes me think its probably great idea...So Baba will do this too (unless Jac/Sean tell me oherwise).

Here is the engine for my FL14 4HP 4S....as you can see weight is not a problem...but good for a bumpy ride on a trailer...etc..

I am resisting real hard not to over engineer....but its not easy....

Posted: **Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:38 pm**

Baba,

I used three layers of plywood in my transom - two layers of 12mm ply and one layer of 7mm. The two full height 12mm layers were epoxy glued together and separately biax taped to the sides. The half height 7mm layer was then added above the rear seat and bright finished. Total thickness about 31mm - about 1 1/4â€

Posted: **Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:54 pm**

Mike Adams wrote:....I used three layers of plywood in my transom - two layers of 12mm ply and one layer of 7mm. The two full height 12mm layers were epoxy glued together and separately biax taped to the sides. ....Mike

Thats a very strong boat Mike...

Based on your experience and Ricks recommendation Baba will double the transom, and attach a second layer of 9 oz cloth for good measure...

Thanks

Posted: **Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:41 pm**

Hey, Baba, how was the break? Is it warmer now in your polar country

? Are you back to this epoxy business? Where are the pics - we've been missing your MadMax!

Andrey

Posted: **Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:05 am**

Baba is back from Vacation...I mean from work to Vacation...As promised..! I put in a good 18 hours of epoxy work on Madmax (this weekend). Doubled the transom, completed the seems from inside and added one layer of epoxy coat on the inside.

Baba is now licensed to Kill â€¦.Bubblesâ€¦I will post a picture of my weapons of mass destruction of bubblesâ€¦Needless to say epoxy has been a lot of funâ€¦Applying the fiberglass tape soon after building the fillets has been the key in bubble elimination.

I have used the cake mixer, spoon, fingers and squeegee for building better filletâ€¦and all methods work quite well. Cutting one corner of the squeegee for the perfect radius of the fillet has been my favorite method so far.

Next step flip this baby and smooth out all the cornersâ€¦.fiberglass hullâ€¦(next weekend..) Canâ€™t waitâ€¦.

Weather in Torornto is perfect for boat building these days....

Posted: **Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:34 am**

Baba,

Re: Wood for cleats..I've mentioned this before in another thread...
At the Home Depot near me here in Houston they have in their "better wood" section, you know where all the wood is stacked on end, a section marked "western pine". Turnes out if you read the little tag with the bar code that it is "Radiata Pine" and it's from New Zeland. This is some of the nicest pine I have ever seen. It seems fairly dense and hard, has zero knots and strait grain, and is beautifully finished. I just bought 16 ea. 8'x1"x2" pieces to use for cleats, rub and spray rails. I have them on a shelf, stacked and clamped to avoid warping in my hot, humid garage. They cost about $3.00 ea. This wood also comes in other widths and I plan on using it for my skegs.
I don't know how rot resistant it is but I really don't care. The whole point of three coat of epoxy plus glass plus god only knows how many coats of primer and paint is to seal out moisture/oxygen, and the boat will be trailered and garage kept.
Anyone know anything about Radiata Pine. It sure doesn't look anything like the second growth crap they've been feeding us for the last 30yrs or so.

Frank

P.S Nice work on your boat!

Posted: **Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:25 pm**

Thanks for the tip..frank ...Just in time too...I will check out the local HD to see we have the special lumber section in Tororonto stores.

Madmax finally catches a glimpse of the Toronto sunshine...after many winter months of living in artificial light...

The Transom has been doubled...and a second layer of 9oz FG tape is applied to the new layer of plywood.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:51 am**

I flipped the hull today...sanded it down nice and easy...here are a few mug shots...

Baba LOVES sanding....I had to stop my self from over doing it....its sooo calming for the nerves....

I was really impressed with the strength of the epoxy/wood flour...the boat feels rock solid...after the tape from the outside and cloth....this thing might be too strong....then there is the rub rail...knees and my mini Gunwale...this design is over engineered to start with....God Damn it this is fun....

Baba Loves Madmax....

Baba just wants to sit infront of Madmax on the thinking chair....for hours sipping tea....just starring....

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:17 am**

Oceola wrote:.... At the Home Depot near me here in Houston they have in their "better wood" section, you know where all the wood is stacked on end, a section marked "western pine". .... Frank

Hey Frank...they have the same clear pine (without knots) here in Torornto...but feels pretty soft...

I can also get Duglus Fir from a local supplier...for 69 cents per linear foot...

Don't know which one is better ...

Help would be most appreciated....thanks in advance...

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:17 am**

Looking good baba,

Don't forget to create a nice 1/2" radius at the seams so the tape does not pull away and give you lots of bubbles.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:20 am**

ArizonaBuilder wrote:Looking good baba,

Don't forget to create a nice 1/2" radius at the seams...

Roger that Terry...!

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:07 am**

Oceola wrote:I just bought 16 ea. 8'x1"x2" pieces to use for cleats, rub and spray rails.

Frank, I found today this wood in our HD (Austin, TX), but don't you think that 1'' is too thick for a rubrail? I would rather put two layers of 1/4, or one 3/8, or 1/4 and 3/8 maximum. The problem here may be that 1'' is hard enough to change the shape of your sides.

Best,
Andrey

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:26 am**

I used 1" stock for rubrails on my first boat and the plywood build up to 3/4" on my second boat. I liked both results. The 1" was difficult to get to stay in place, but it didn't change the shape of my sides or anything like that. Later, when I had access to my radial arm saw and other equipment, I was able to rip the proper width for the 1/4" plywood. That also came out nice. I don't think I prefer one over the other. Just one opinion.

BTW, Baba, it's looking good. That 4-up shot is perfect for showing people what a tab looks like when it's been sanded down and the corners have been rounded over. Is that a glass dispenser on the bottom of the hull?

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:27 am**

I was thinking about using the lattice molding HD sells. It's 1/4"x1 1/2" pine strips.

Jeff

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:02 am**

MadRus wrote:.... Is that a glass dispenser on the bottom of the hull?

I didn't want to add impurities to the tape by writing on it....so I marked the disposable glasses that are used to store the Tape.

Guys...I am as ignorant about wood qualities as I am about fishing...so some help in making a decision here would be most appreciated...

i.e. Plan is to use

Scrap ply for Rub rails

Laminated strips of lumber for cleats, as KS suggested.

Solid lumber piece for the Skeg.

and would like to decide on lumber :

HD has Clear pine, Red Cedar and Oak in their premium section.

Local supplier has D Fir/ Philipean Mahogany/ Red Cedar/ White Ash...they are all about the same price....

How is the finger jointed clear pine moldings for addition outside of the seat tops to join to the bulkhead...I can also use oak or pine moldings for this purpose.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:38 am**

I only used laminated dimensional wood for the curved cleats on the hull sides, because I wanted one long cleat per section with the curve pre conditioned into the cleat so that minimal clamping would be needed when actually bonding those long pieces to the hull. It was much more labor intensive than was necessary, but I wanted to experiment and learn . There are many much easier methods of making and bonding in cleats for the seats. I don't regret what I did though, except perhaps for the time involved, but they are nice, strong, continuous full length cleats. They required a jig to laminate at the proper curve (slightly more curve than needed so it would relax into the right curve).

Red Oak is more rot prone than Doug Fir.

For rubrails I used strips of plywood, but also added a shorter and thin mahoghany cap...

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:03 pm**

KS,

Thats one hell of a boat man....! Baba feels humbled...

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:49 pm**

baba101 wrote:KS,

Thats one hell of a boat man....! Baba feels humbled...

yea, well, I think I lost control ...

I hope it floats. Yours is shaping up very nicely and quickly. I posted that picture so you can see how easy it is dress up an otherwise simple plywood laminate rubrail. The plywood laminates were very easy to do, and that very simple strip of mahoghany does wonders. Since the mahog is very thin it was simple to form it to the curves of the sheer. The rubrail, other than the mahog, will be a blend of white green and blue, slightly lighter than Mercer Green, but with a tinge of Blue in it, and of course, the mahog will be bright finished. It doesn't have to take a lot of work to put a nice touch on a rub rail, but the plywood multiple laminate was super easy to install. If I built another, I'd do the rubrail the same way, if not put a rope on it in place of the mahog.

Have fun deciding...
ks

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:40 pm**

I used ext 3.8" plywood ripped down to 4' l x 1 1/2"w. I built the whole boat out of ext. I did glass the whole exterior hull. If you see my gallery you can see. I thought the boat was stiff before once I added the rub rail it was like a rock.

I built the skeg as per the plans. 2 scrap pieces of 3/8" epoxy togther and cut out. Screw and glue on.

You will love the results. This design is strong. Holds my family and has never creaked, groaned, or popped. My level of finish is not as nice as others here but that is a lesson I learned about cold weather gluing and painting.

You are making great progress keep it up.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:24 pm**

How is the finger jointed clear pine moldings for addition outside of the seat tops to join to the bulkhead...

You should avoid the finger jointed pine. Most of it won't have waterproof glue in the joints. It also tends to break at the joints if you bend it.

GK

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:07 am**

mpacek wrote:....I built the skeg as per the plans. 2 scrap pieces of 3/8" epoxy togther and cut out. Screw and glue on....

Thanks ...looks like its time for Baba to read the building notes again .... I like the idea of using scarp laminated ply as much as possible...saves money and you know its not going to get deformed.

GK ...appreciate the heads up about Finger jointed wood....I won't use it...

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:09 pm**

Baba is happy to report there were no Bubbles....but frequent waves on the surface...

Looks Like Baba has to use a lot of woodflour to fill the wavy surface of FG tape...before apllication of Cloth on the bottom....Also means I will have to work wet on wet for cloth else Mr Bubbles...(I understand this is not the time for quikfair).

The reason for this wavy surface is too much woodflour in the first place...and maybe application of the tape too soon after glue.

As Baba continues to learn from this experience...he may comfort himself in the fact that strength of the boat has not been compromised...scope of work and cost of material has increased.

I have approx 1.25 Gal of rasin plus .75 gal of hardner left...wonder if its enough...?

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:40 pm**

That looks pretty good. Don't worry about the wavy tape too much. It will look better after you put the cloth over it. You will probably want to cut down the rough edges of the tape first. I like to use a Stanley Surform to do that.

I have approx 1.25 Gal of rasin plus .75 gal of hardner left...wonder if its enough...?

Are you going to completely cover the outside with cloth?
I put a total of 9 yds of 6 oz cloth on the outside of my D15 and used right at 1 gal total resin and hardener to do it. If you are only going to cover the bottom with the minimum amount of glass, you should have enough to complete the bottom. Your tape seams look like you know how to squeeze the extra resin out of the fiberglass. Just do the same when you put the cloth on. The subsequent coats of resin to fill the cloth and seal everything won't use as much resin if you roll them on.

GK

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:59 pm**

baba101 wrote:I have approx 1.25 Gal of rasin plus .75 gal of hardner left...wonder if its enough...?

Everything is in the hands of God... But just FYI, I have at this point a little bit of resin left in the first can, maybe 1/15, and a little more than a half of the hardener. But I am done with the cleats, which makes me left with almost the same amount of epoxy, so don't worry, even if you ran out of it, you are not going to be the only one!

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:03 pm**

I used more epoxy than was specified in the kit, but I did some additional gluing and used it to fair. I bought an additional 1/2 gallon of resin and qt. of hardener and I have a little less than half of that left, and I have wasted some. Epoxy goes off a lot quicker at 70 degrees than it does at 50 degrees, so I lost a few cups worth at the end of the build. Rick

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:47 pm**

Cool thanks....No wood flour it is....and "God to Decide" if the epoxy is enough.

Baba will be away from Madmax until Tuesday...by then the epoxy would have cured nice...Mr Stanley and my faithful sander will smooth the edges before Madmax is all dressed up.

For the Bottom I have 9oz Cloth and the wings get 12oz Biax.

Why...? just to to learn the difference in the two materials....

Baba Can't wait till tuesday....

Until then....adios...!

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:58 am**

Hello Baba,

The wavy bumps in the tape are from a bit too much epoxy that pooled under the tape and lifted the tape. I don't think you'll have any problem though. The woven tape almost seems to have a tendency to do that on outside curves anyway. You have to be careful not to over apply the epoxy when first laminating the tape. You wet it out of course, but then wait a bit and only add more on top if it looks like it might be starving. Sometimes it just lifts and needs to be squeeged back down. Sometimes you do need to add a bit more epoxy, but if you really lay the epoxy on thick, that is when the tape can start to float up on pools, and it gets wavy or little mounds.

The bottom cloth may do the same if you overapply epoxy to try and fill weave on the first application, that is, the glass may float up on pools of epoxy, maybe not as waves, but as little mounds. This happend to the glass on the inside of my transom, pretty bad. Since it is a small section, I'll probably sand down the ridges and put another piece of 4 or 6 oz on, smooth this time. I was way over zealous the first time around!

When you do the cloth, just get it wetout well, with no bubbles, nice and flat. When it starts to tack a bit, and is well adhered to the hull, then you can fill the weave a bit, but filling the weave is often done with fairing compound rather than straight epoxy, unless you are going to bright finish. I like to use a bit more straight epoxy after the application has set, then final fairing is done with the fairing game later, but this will use what's left of your epoxy. You may need more.

The first build tweaks many of these technique details, but the boat will be fine just as she is coming along. Structural strength comes first, then cosmetic. Your boat looks strong and pining for water! You can fair her nice before primer later. And you will want to knock edges of the tape off before the cloth goes on.

Happy glassing! Looking good!
ks

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:54 pm**

ks8 wrote:...The wavy bumps in the tape are from a bit too much epoxy that pooled under the tape and lifted the tape. ....ks

KS : here is my theory to the origins of the ridges:

Using slow hardner I created woodflour seems that were about 5 inches wide (which should have been 1/2").

I then applied the tape immidiately after...since the woodflour was totally soft...poking with the brush to remove bubbles... created the redges. Plus the fact that a straight tape will have a tendency to create ridges due to the curvy shear lines.

Under the high spots I see dense yellow glue....

I was careful to remove the excess epoxy with a roller and spread it over the bottom...

This leads me to believe that the tape is not floating over epoxy but hardglue... would you agree...?

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:21 pm**

Breadstine,

The 1"x2" Radiata pine I was talking about is "dimentional" lumber so it is actually only 3/4"x 1 1/2". Most of the small boats like my D-15 call for a 3/4" rubrail. I will either soak or steam, clamp to the shear, let dry in place, remove to let the shear line dry, then epoxy in place. It should work. It's been mentioned here before in many threads, and of course has been done for eons on conventional wooden boats.

Happy Friday,
Frank

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:52 pm**

Oceola wrote:I will either soak or steam, clamp to the shear, let dry in place, remove to let the shear line dry, then epoxy in place.

Frank, I don't have any experience with either soaking or steaming. I also believe it requires some equipment? What do you think about kerfs? Would it be OK? I really liked this pine in HD, and my only concern is how to make it take the form I need. Is it possible at all to do it without steam/water?

Thanks, good luck!

Andrey

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:18 pm**

Why not strip your pine at 1/4" or 3/4" (thickness) and add 2 or three layers for your rubrail...

If I don't have enough Scrap ply left thats what I am thinking of doing...also I will go 3" wide strips...they will look better like HookieBuilders FL14.

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:20 pm**

Hello Baba,

Yes, if you had much soft wood flour mix there and applied the tape wet on wet, it is actually sort of the same principle, where, instead of excess epoxy lumping or pooling, you had wood flour lumping or gathering. If you squeeged well, the wood flour blend probably began setting up before the fresher straight epoxy and you just couldn't flatten it anymore, but, so you know, people who did not use that wide strip of wood flour mix can get the same problem with only epoxy. I found the woven tape is a bit less likely to have that wavy tendency if you trim off the larger edge of the tape with scissors or razor, about 1/8 inch off, but then the tape is more likely to shed a little. Many techniques for same final effect. Advantages and disadvantages to each. All things boats are in a world of compromise, including techniques while building them.

I'll let you get back to planning the cloth layup.... while I finish the last two plank laminates of my faux transom (It's turning out better than I thought it would!).

MadMax is looking good!

ks

Posted: **Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:22 pm**

I can say, I used 1 x 1 (I'm pretty sure it's some kind of pine) balluster stock and it was easy to bend for a rubrail, and I added a piece of 3/4 cove molding underneath for a touch. To bend the 1 x stock, just get it as long as possible, start on one end and bend and clamp as you move forward. The idea is to use each successive clamp as the fulcrum of the lever, being sure to get a long length of stock for good leverage as you slowly move the fulcrum forward, matching the curvature of the sheerline. It worked for me.

Note: You must use either screws or serious clamps, not cut PVC clamps if the sheer has any dramatic curves in it. The PVC clamps will not hold the torsion.

Posted: **Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:45 am**

Friday night Fever
Baba couldn't wait till Tuesday.....Just Couldn't sleep last night ...kept building Madmax over and over in my mind as I laid in bed...

To hell with these self imposed restrictions...lets go build my boat....started 10pm...

I first used a hand planer to rip out the sharp edges of the tape. Then sanded them down. Wiped clean with a damp cloth and let it dry fully. here is the result.

To apply epoxy....I used a Brush/Roller and a Squeggi..all methods worked really well. Squeggi was great to remove excess epoxy...brush was good for the uneven surface...and foam roller was great for spreading the epoxy evenly afterwords.

It was fun...

I was very pleased with the results...

Great music on the Radio too...I would highly recommend boat building as a Friday Night activity...beats going to those sleezy clubs..full of AIDS, Rabbies and what not...!

Baba really needs to pace himself...otherwise the boat might be finished too soon..and the fun will be over... Baba is angry with himself

.

...Tisk tisk (slap on the wrist) Bad Baba...!

Posted: **Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:24 pm**

Baba,
Did you precoat the bottom before the cloth or did you put the epoxy on dry cloth?

Jeff

Posted: **Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:35 pm**

Hi Jeff,

I precoated the bottom..and then let it cure completely..Sanded, wiped clean etc..

Then applied epoxy to dry cloth...it was very easy...

Posted: **Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:03 pm**

baba101 wrote:[...] applied epoxy to dry cloth...

Looks very nice! Congratulations! Baba, I am thinking about FGlassing from outside. Can you tell me how many yards was that piece? I need to know how much of this stuff to order.

Posted: **Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:10 pm**

I wasted a lot of cloth by applying one piece only on the bottom...

5 yds of 9oz cloth (60 in wide) plus lots of scrap (left over) for bottom.

I bought another 5 yds (50 inches wide) for the sides...(again I have waste)

I think if you apply it sideways like Mike did, there will be no waste. Fairing will be a little harder though..

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:37 am**

baba101 wrote:I think if you apply it sideways like Mike did, there will be no waste. Fairing will be a little harder though..

I read in one the threads that biaxial is used to add strength where there are connected/bending parts. It makes sense to me because you have ALL the strings (or how you call them) work, not only half of them. But why put biaxial on bottom/sides - don't you think that 4 oz filled with epoxy protects your ply in the same way (and reduce the weight)?

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:09 am**

Applying it sideways is not to make it like biax, in this case. It is simply to avoid more waste in laying out the cloth, but it makes bumpy seams every 50 inches or so, athwartships, that need to be faired.

On a boat the size of the FL14, I suppose 4 oz would help a little with abrasion resistance, but it seems 6 oz or 9 oz might be more protective. Why? The boat is heavier than, say, a PK78, so when it bumps or scrapes on something there is a bit more inertia in the grind or scrape action. 4 oz is good to stabilize fir plywood and keep it from checking, but if I were possibly pulling a heavier boat over a rocky beach (ouch), or nudging sharp rocks, I don't know how long 4 oz would do what is expected of it. 9 or 12 oz biax is heavier still, and if you really intend to beat on the hull, get some thin hardwood runners on the bottom, or maybe you should switch to steel plate?

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:31 pm**

bredstein wrote:.... But why put biaxial on bottom/sides - don't you think that 4 oz filled with epoxy protects your ply in the same way (and reduce the weight)?

Andrey part of the answer is in the name "Madmax"...its crazy over engineering.....and weight is not an issue for me...since its a displacement hull.

I used 9oz cross weave at the bottom because at the time of cutting thatâ€™s all I had...

When I realized I needed another 5 yds of FG I decided to go for 12oz Biax, purely as a learning exercise.

Plus I thought I needed the stronger cloth on the sides(rather than the bootom) for the following reasons:

The bottom will be Carbon Fibered...making it very abrasion resistant.

All the overlap is at the bottom...which is also made from a thicker ply i.e. 3/8"..

The 12oz will compensate for the lack of EARs in the bow section.

It took me 4 hours last night to glass one side.

Posted: **Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:45 pm**

Well now, I guess I could vainly consider myself a very conservative builder in comparison!

It's looking like nicely wetout glass...

Remember how much it weighed when there was no glass on it yet? Wait until you heave it up again with it all glassed!

I lifted the Caravelle last weekend, well, the transom. It is quite a different boat from when it was only a plywood pickle dish. But then, it is quite a different boat! I will not try lifting it alone again except in an emergency (ugh). I'm getting too old for my voice to go up an octave.

She's right about what I guestimated with the mods and extra glass... right around 300 lbs, maybe slightly over (320?) once the final finish is applied and CB and rudder swinging, without batteries or rig.

Let us know how much madmax gains once glassed.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:29 am**

bredstein wrote:Why put biaxial on bottom/sides - don't you think that 4 oz filled with epoxy protects your ply in the same way (and reduce the weight)?

As designed, the FL14 does not need any glass on the bottom and sides, but of course it does add protection. However, a bigger boat will require the use of biaxial fabric, so if the FL14 is your 'practice' boat, using it gives you some experience with biax before building the big one.
Mike

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:29 am**

baba101 wrote: I decided to go for 12oz Biax, purely as a learning exercise.

I don't know... from what I see, Baba looks ready for the big boat now. That's a nice glassing job from the pictures.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:21 pm**

Final layer of Glass took three hours....I also sanded down all sharp edges from the other sides..

Thanks for the encouragement Madrus...

Baba was hit by a new wave of inspiration while I glassed the wings...

Baba would like to spend his last years building a VG26 at a Holiday resort (like Panama/Malasia or something)â€¦with an open invitation to all my close friends to join me in this adventureâ€¦an opportunity to work hard, play hard and catch up on old times and build new memoriesâ€¦as we see this monster take shape.

And finally to sail forever........

P.s. and don't look at the Dingy (Madmax) while you imagine this...

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:51 pm**

Baba, This baby will be done before nice weather sets in. Keep going and enjoy this summer. Maybe change the name to Battle Cruiser MadMax. The biax should give you ability to navigate the falls. Rick

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:52 pm**

A thought just occured to me "Maid of the Max" ??????

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:27 pm**

Rick,

I gotta slow down....I will be sad when this project is over...won't know what to do with the boat once in a Lake...

I might get bored ...or might have to learn to fish or something....

I do Like the idea of taking on the Falls...are you going to watch me from your side of the border...

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:07 am**

Baba's Project Monitor will ensure many months of fun and a timely launch in April 2007.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:45 am**

Baba, I like the Microsoft Project work, but speed it up, times a wastin'. Even when your boat is done, it will not be done. There are numerous tweaks you will find yourself doing. Let me know when you are going to navigate the falls, I'll bring my camera. Rick

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:53 am**

baba101 wrote:Baba's Project Monitor will ensure many months of fun and a timely launch in April 2007.

The plan looks great, but it requires a great deal of self discipline! I remember how Baba was going to wait till Tuesday, but could wait only till Friday, and at 10 pm sharp said: "To hell with these self imposed restrictions!"

Isn't this plan just another self imposed restriction?

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:59 am**

Life is full of self imposed restrictions. Boat building is supposed to be fun. Do what you can while you have the urge. I went like crazy up until the sanding, sanding, sanding part. Then it ceased to be as much fun. So the sanding took about the same length of time as the building in calendar days, but not hours. I found myself working many hours a day on the fun stuff, but not as many when it came to the drudgery. Rick

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:01 am**

bredstein wrote: Isn't this plan just another self imposed restriction?

It is indeed...I know this is just a Dingy...but if I don't learn to be patient with boat building...my next boat might start to rule my life...and then there is this danger of a perfectly good obsession becoming a mild case of insanity...

Baba must learn to control the urge

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:19 am**

I see everyone has built compartments in all the seats....which adds strength to the seat tops.

Baba will be filling all the seats with foam...and will not need the compartments..I am assuming the design does not require these reinforcements...?

Just cleats around the the four walls of the seats will be enough...?

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:52 pm**

"Just cleats around the the four walls of the seats will be enough...?"
Unless you weigh over 100 kg and your bottom is less than 7 cm dia.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:57 pm**

Lon wrote:"...
Unless you weigh over 100 kg and your bottom is less than 7 cm dia.

Thanks man...I was thinking more on the lines of standing on the seat tops... 7cm dia is still kinda hard to reach... but a 100KG Balarina could do it

Since Baba is no Balarina...No additional crossbeams ..

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:41 pm**

If you foam to the top with the two part foam, and then cut it flush with the top, the foam will also add some support. I hear an electric kitchen knife works well to cut the messy stuff, but I haven't had the pleasure yet .

Maybe with the added support of the foam, Baba will learn to do pirouettes on his seat tops while reeling in the bass and dreaming of the VG26 build at a resort hotel. Now I have to spend the rest of the day getting that mental image out of my head...

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:19 pm**

Instead of the 100kg ballerina, I prefer the images from the canadian ballet. Rick

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:22 am**

This week:

1. Rip out 1/2" X 3" strips of clear pine for Rubrails. (dont' have enough Scrap Ply left for this).
2. Make Skeg with either Clear Pine Stock or 2X 3/4" Ply.

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:37 am**

For a 1.5 inch skeg? Oh, I forgot, that will go nicely with the biax sides and carbon fiber bottom ...

... during mine sweeper operations...

You make me feel good about my boat, which will be comparatively quite light,

, but not as strong as that carbon fiber treatment.

Actually, my skeg will be about an inch thick also, maybe inch and an eigth, and I'm biaxing it on, so, as usual, who am I to talk...

I hope you finish this year, or soon. I'm looking forward to seeing Max displace some water.

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:57 am**

If I decide to split the rubail in two halves and insert a Rope in the middle...

What would be the best way to attach the rope to the rubrails...is it glued (3M 5200) or just tied..?

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:12 pm**

When I was planning that, I was going to lash it somehow, so it was easily removeable, yet easy to tighten so it wouldn't fall out. Maybe hidden lashings every foot or so in between the two rubrails. But I think many jam it into silcone or such, or make the rub rails outer edge a little narrower than the rope diameter so the rope is pushed into the chamber, yet protrudes about 1/3 for desired protection.

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:13 pm**

On the seats. The forward seat if built as per plan will need some reinforcement when a 250lb boat builder tries it out by sitting on the edge. Filling the forward compartment and the rear seat compartment with foam will provide more than enough flotation for the weight of the boat.

I used the mid seat compartment for storing the trolling motor battery. Alot of the lakes around me do not allow gas engines so oars and trolling motor are nice. By the way the 36LB thrust MinnKota pushes the FL14 along at 2-3 knots with 600lbs of passengers and gear.

I hope to be fishing this weekend when I get the cover off the boat I will show more pics of the battery compartment.

Your glass job came out great.

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:54 pm**

mpacek wrote: the 36LB thrust MinnKota pushes the FL14 along at 2-3 knots with 600lbs of passengers and gear.

Do you think 30 Lb MinnKota will work? In Academy the difference between new 30 and 36 is about $30 ($80 vs $110), but I have a good deal on a used 30 lb motor. My concerns are power, and more important, shaft length. Since I am building the same FL14 as yours, do you think a shorter and weaker motor will work on your boat?

Thanks!

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:16 pm**

I have an older 20# thrust that will push my FL14 along in still water with 4 people aboard. Not going really fast, but faster than rowing. Rick

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:24 pm**

rjezuit wrote:I have an older 20# thrust that will push my FL14 along in still water with 4 people aboard. Not going really fast, but faster than rowing.

Rick, what's the length of your shaft? The chart in Academy says that their 30 Lbs is OK if you have up to 10'' from the upper side of the transom down to the waterline. My boat is not built yet, so how do I know where this line is

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:28 pm**

bredstein wrote:
Rick, what's the length of your shaft?

Oh man, now we're gonna get some fish stories!

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:40 pm**

It's huge, but the shaft on my trolling motor is about 3' long. It slides up/down through a friction collar. When fully down it is well below the bottom of the boat(at least a foot), and that is how I run it most of the time. It just makes it easier to steer without having to reach up to the motor handle. I usually mount it to the far right side of the transom and sit in the middle or left side with the battery also on the right, this balances out the weight. No rocket science just clamped on the transom. Mostly I use it on a small lake near where we camp or on the Erie canal. There is no current on either, just maybe fighting wind going one way. Rick

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:45 am**

I installed the Skeg last night...and laminated the rubrails...

Currently the rub rails are from 1" x 2" Clear pine lumber...and it bends real easy...I intend to add one layer of 1/4" Ply to it.

Is there any need to strip the pine to 1/2"...?

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:10 pm**

Baba,

Multiple laminated thin layers will have less springback then fewer layers (or just one layer. If you laminate 2 layer of 1/2" as opposed 1 layer of 1" - you will have less spring back. This is not really an issue since your boat is already "put together". But imagine it was just a shell, the spring back, could distort the shape of the hull.

Joel

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:04 pm**

Put the pine on the boat first and then laminate the plywood on top of it. Don't try to laminate first. That would make it very tough to bend around the hull.

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:52 pm**

Started building the skeg last night..first made it from the clear pine...only to realise the lumber was slightly bent...after fiddling with it for two hours...(wasted 6 bucks).

Started again with a straight 2X4...and striped it to slightly over an inch wide (as per specs). My Jigsaw gave up when the thickness exceeded 2.5 inches. It was pedal to the metal...burnin a lotta rubber but not movin. Had to resort to handsaw...which worked fine.

Started the cleats today. This is fun....but had to stop when I ran out of clamps...

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:56 pm**

Shine wrote:Baba,

Multiple laminated thin layers will have less springback then fewer layers (or just one layer. If you laminate 2 layer of 1/2" as opposed 1 layer of 1" - you will have less spring back. This is not really an issue since your boat is already "put together". But imagine it was just a shell, the spring back, could distort the shape of the hull.

Joel

Shine, do you laminate them togeter before you instal them as a rubrail, or one at atime along the length?

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:05 pm**

dewers wrote: ....do you laminate them togeter before you instal them as a rubrail, or one at atime along the length?...

I made one long rubrail out of 2X8' and will add it as one piece...on the other side I want to glue them straight on the hull..which I now think will be a better method. Since it will allow me to get the perfect fit on the hull.

I will however work on both rubrails at the same time...

Once the First layer is hard...I will apply another layer of ply...as suggested by KS8 above.

Posted: **Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:39 pm**

baba101 wrote:Started building the skeg last night..first made it from the clear pine...only to realise the lumber was slightly bent...after fiddling with it for two hours...(wasted 6 bucks).

You know what, you should have tried to play with a heatgun. If your wood is bent, especially 'slightly' you can find the center of the curve, then heat a small area about 1'' to both sides of this center. Not to much, the lumber can get brown, but no burning! Then while heating, start to pull in the direction you need. Once it took the shape, stop heating, and the wood will remember its new form forever. And for the minor imperfections there is a belt sander.

baba101 wrote:Started again with a straight 2X4...and striped it to slightly over an inch wide (as per specs).

Specs are important, but do we really need to worship them to such extent? I am absolutely positive, that 2x4 will work exactly as good as your ripped one. Which is, btw, in fact is not 2, but only 1 and 1/2 of an inch...

Your progress looks great! Good luck!

Posted: **Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:39 am**

bredstein wrote:....you should have tried to play with a heatgun. If your wood is bent, especially 'slightly' you can find the center of the curve .....

Thanks Andrey...something to remember for my next boat... I did use the planer and my Orbit Sander to try and get it perfectly straight...but it was hard...and the Skeg was gettng a little too thin at the front....

When I was riping the 2X4 I was thinking speed..and drag...Imagining racing my Yam 4 verses a sports canoe or a dragon boat...

didn't want to loose just because I was too lazy to rip the 2X4 when it was time.

Also fear of the unknown...like when we made the butt blocks wider than specs...you cracked the joint...and I lost the smooth sheerline on Madmax..I figured when in doubt stick to the plans...

My Next boat OB19...will be ruthlessly to spec...this Baby as you know is a pratice boat...and I want to learn as much as possible...and am happy that I picked a displacement hull for this purpose...

Having never used or owned a boat before (not knowing what to expect) ...I naturally aspire to make mine stronger than it needs to be...like the old engineers...who without precise understanding of stresses over-engineered bridges to be 10 times stronger than needed...

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:14 am**

Installation of the rubrails 4 hours...

This is a very gooie task for one person...the rail fell off a few times...had to scrap off the muck...and start again.

Baba is not too happy with the esthetics of this Rubrail...I want to maybe double the width, round off the top corner then FG it from the top and sides (to provide better protection). It will also give a nice grip.

Baba plans to install a single piece on the bow front to close the loop.

This is how I joint the rubrails..

Baba has finished the last of his epoxy (used up 4.5GL kit so far ) ...need to order another 1.5GL on Monday which also means Baba has no choice but to take a break.

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:51 am**

That 12 oz biax can soak up a lot of resin.
That's a good looking splice. I have just scarfed on a 45Â° angle and glued before I put the rail on the boat. This is what my CC rubrails look like:

My glue joints are good when they hold, but one splice for the D15 has failed 3 times. I finally got a good bond on the fourth try. I'm sure that impatience had a part in that. I waited four days to remove the clamps on the last (successful) attempt.

I was not happy with the looks of my CC rubrail so I put another 3/4X1 strip on the inside:

After wrapping with tape it made a very strong rail.

This is the cross section of the rubrail for both of my boats:

I used a router with corner rounding bits to cut the radii.

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:47 pm**

gk108 wrote:I used a router with corner rounding bits to cut the radii.

I may sound ignorant, but these boats are not space ships IMHO, so why bother with such precise devices as routers? Our fathers made nice boat with axes - so I personally is absolutely fine with a belt sander, that is my sort of a modern ax

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:04 pm**

But why would you use an axe if you have a belt sander? So why wouldn't you use a router if you had one? I would never round over an edge with a sander instead of my router...big waste of sandpaper as well as a lot of wasted effort.

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:24 pm**

Hey Andrey,
Rounding 30 ft of corner in 5 mins is one good reason.
Repeatability is another. Especially for "wear" items like a rubrail that may need a section repaired in the future.
Best reason. I already have the router and bits. For this project I have treated myself to a new extra long flush trimming bit for some work in the cockpit.
If I didn't have a router, you can bet that my belt sander would do the job, but hey what's the difference? A power tool is a power tool, eh? If I really wanted to go retro, I could use a hand molding plane with a blade sharpened to my desired radius. That's how that guy on PBS would do it.

Posted: **Mon May 01, 2006 10:49 am**

MADwand wrote:But why would you use an axe if you have a belt sander? So why wouldn't you use a router if you had one? I would never round over an edge with a sander instead of my router...big waste of sandpaper as well as a lot of wasted effort.

Well, you're right. Router can do a great job. I was probably thinking about some more hand control over the process, you know, when it is in the tips of your fingers. Especially since it is not a mass production... I remember rounding edges for the dining table I made, it was fun doing with a sand paper... So the effort was not wasted

Posted: **Mon May 01, 2006 11:03 am**

gk108 wrote:That's how that guy on PBS would do it.

Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Babaâ€™s FL14: MadMax in Toronto

Babaâ€™s FL14: MadMax in Toronto

Front frames

Re: Front frames

Re: Front frames

Re: Front frames

Bubbles

Re: Bubbles

Doubling the Transom:

rub rail

bottom cloth

FL 14 Seats

Re: FL 14 Seats

Fine looking craft!

Right hight

Launch Of Baba's Madmax