AR15 in Ohio

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jsriolo
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AR15 in Ohio

Post by jsriolo »

I just received my AR15 plans. I am pretty excited about building and owning my first boat! Anyways, I thought all of you would appreciate seeing my project so I'll try to update this as I go. Right now I am building a 1/8 model to help me lay everything out and perhaps test some mods.

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There are a couple of pictures of great looking AR15s but it doesn't seem like a lot of them are being built. Any reason for this?

I was doing some reading and I saw some comments about an AR15 mast kit. Is that still available?

I have not bought any wood yet but I was thinking of going with meranti for its strength, rot resistance, and lower cost. Is there any reason to use okume besides reduced weight? I was also planning on glassing this for added durability. Will the additional wood and glass weight seriously impact performance? I won't be putting trapeze on this and I don't expect to do any super competitive racing so I don't need crazy speed but I don't want a dog either.

I look forward to your feedback. Hopefully I'll have an update soon.

EDIT: I am making all of the pictures links because I do not want to crop them.
Last edited by jsriolo on Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.



chrisobee
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Re: AR15 in Ohio

Post by chrisobee »

Where in Ohio are you building? I'm working on a sailboat (CV16) in Bowling Green.
I have not bought any wood yet but I was thinking of going with meranti for its strength, rot resistance, and lower cost. Is there any reason to use okume besides reduced weight?


weight is the biggest reason to use okume.
I was also planning on glassing this for added durability. Will the additional wood and glass weight seriously impact performance?
depends on how thick the glass and how much epoxy you use. As a first time builder you will over use epoxy and over build. You should resist this urge. build to the plans and trust that the designer has allready built in a big safety margin. For any particular hull shape the lighter boat will be faster.

ks8
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Re: AR15 in Ohio

Post by ks8 »

Glass on the bottom is a good idea. The day will come of a scrape when you'll be glad for that glass. Very glad...

If you are going to race, less weight means quicker acceleration, but also less momentum. In big boats, it means more weight can go in the bulb, but that is moot with this boat, and even in those classes, efforts are being made to change that as more structure failures are showing designers and builders to be getting too greedy for bulb weight and speed at the cost of safe strong hulls. So, in an AR15 sort of class, in light air, less weight will mean more speed, but will require better technique around the marks because you have less momentum. All these things considered, generally, less weight is the overall better goal. In 10 knots or more of wind, my overweight CV16 achieves hull speed and has some nice momentum to maintain it through a bit of chop, and can hold her own with lighter boats, but in light air, or in light variable winds she'll be beat by lighter boats that can accelerate better in a puff or gust, other tactical issues aside.

Welcome to the ward... :)

jsriolo
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Re: AR15 in Ohio

Post by jsriolo »

chrisobee wrote:As a first time builder you will over use epoxy and over build. You should resist this urge. build to the plans and trust that the designer has allready built in a big safety margin. For any particular hull shape the lighter boat will be faster.
I certainly do have the urge to overbuild but I think what you said is exactly what I needed to hear. I'm in the Cinci area BTW.

Can anyone answer my question about the mast kit? I think I'd feel better if I bought it all together but I think I could piece it together if I had to. Anyways, model progress continues while I prepare my garage for the real thing.

Image
Last edited by jsriolo on Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chrisobee
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Re: AR15 in Ohio

Post by chrisobee »

jsriolo wrote:Can anyone answer my question about the mast kit? I think I'd feel better if I bought it all together but I think I could piece it together if I had to.
I don't see a mast kit for the AR15. I think I would just sit down with the plans and look at the dwyer mast site. Think of it like a jigsaw puzzle.

ks8
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Re: AR15 in Ohio

Post by ks8 »

Nice foil on the CB. :) Carry that through on the whole model and it will look nice on the mantle. :)

I may do a model of the VG18 or 20 or 23 (?). I'm thinking of using a scale that matches an available GI Joe (kung fu grip if I can find one cheap), so I can get a good idea of scale. :lol: Have you tried your scaling yet to see if you can do the same with a suitable *action figure*?

TomW
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Re: AR15 in Ohio

Post by TomW »

As KS says lighter weight means better handling in lighter air. But as a first time builder you will over build the boat anyway, everybody does. Instead of a 60% fiberglass epoxy to 40% epoxy you will probably have the reverse. The other thing is are you going to be sailing to race or for pleasure if for racing then weight should be a consideration if for pleasure then build for longevity. If you build for light weight use Okume if for longevity use Meranti.

Most of all enjoy the BBV and your build, nothing can't be corrected and nothing is ever wrong. :D We'll help you out.

Tom
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ks8
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Re: AR15 in Ohio

Post by ks8 »

Re: the mast or spar kit...

Dwyer will help you out with the spars if you send them the sail plan. They have been doing this a long time. They might even have an AR15 sail plan on file. They know who Bateau and Jacques are (is?) . :) Depending on who you speak with, their first responses or explanations may not compute on your end. Just ask them to say it again differently, so you are both on the same page. And then feel free to relay any continued confusions (if any) here. Or call Jacques if you find it difficult to put into type, but try the forum first so we can all benefit from the discusiion and resolution. :) I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm still getting the feel of sailing with sea trials. I'm not even up to a *wise-fool* yet, but others here have 20 times or more the experience I have. The trick sometimes is hearing an answer in a way that *you* understand to *your* satisfaction, when you need that satisfaction to help bolster simple trust. :D

About the light vs heavy build...

The longer version... :lol:

F=MA

Force = Mass x Acceleration

In that relationship, if the mass of the boat is half that of an overbuilt version, then an equal amount of force from the wind will give you twice the acceleration, theoretically, but there's also drag and sail trim and other issues. But, at half the weight, though you have less inertia to overcome to get you going, you also have less momentum once going. If you are barely moving compared to your *not moving* competitor, that's good. But in light puffs, if the heavier boat plays those puffs right, he might accomplish a tack to windward successfully because his momentum of that extra mass carries him through the maneuver, whereas you might get stuck in irons or need to bear away before the tack to gain speed for the maneuver.

Light air racing requires its own skill set, including a good understanding of where the next puff or wind curtain is most likely to occur. But all skills being equally proficient for light air, the lighter boat is more likely to cross the line first. This seems like a petty parsing of words... :oops: but I would say that it is not quite that the lighter boat handles better, but that the lighter boat has the potential to perform better with the proper handling by the skipper and crew. :) :lol: A lighter boat, in some instances, may require more skill to handle well. :wink: Same for a heavier boat, just those instances are different. :lol:

If the class of boats can plane, then when the wind kicks up, once again the lighter boat can benefit from more acceleration in gusts, getting the boat to plane for awhile, where the heavier boat might not ever plane if the wind isn't strong enough. So if the skipper and crew are sharp, the lighter boat, that can plane, may plane in short bursts where the heavier boat won't. If the wind is steady and strong, the lighter boat may still plane for longer periods, but may slam to a stop more in a chop. Overall, the greater time planing, I think, will make up for the more possible sudden stop. If the heavier boat doesn't plow through the chop, but also slams to a stop, he will accelerate slower from that stop.

If the boats are displacement and need a jet turbine to get them to plane, and the wind is steady, things are markedly different. For then the benefit of less weight begins to drop except in that the lighter hull can put more weight in the bulb or board and carry more sail. In a class with strict restrictions on bulb weight (which is being debated now), or on sail area flown, it becomes wiser to build a stronger boat if lighter still won't let you put more in the bulb or fly more sail. Sail trim and boat trim and tactics and a good weather eye and a clean and well faired bottom become more important than just a few pounds of weight.

With an AR15 you will probably race within all sorts of fleets since there is no established AR15 fleet. There will be some sort of handicapping system to position you fairly among dissimilar designs. If you can get your boat to plane, and you are not facing a four foot steep chop ( 8O ), then light is the way to go, okoume, maybe meranti on the bottom if you want that a bit stronger (and it keeps the weight low which is good). When plenty strong for the worst expected conditions, light will have more advantages, but the skipper and crew need to know and work those advantages or they may still be beat by heavier boats.

If you build a little heavier than an experienced builder, and don't build an outright pig (like I did first time (but is nuke hardened :lol: )), (and she's a lovely pig and sails well), then you're gonna have a lot of fun learning those subtle and not so subtle details. :D There, I typed way too much for today....

jsriolo
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Re: AR15 in Ohio

Post by jsriolo »

ks8 wrote:If the boats are displacement and need a jet turbine to get them to plane...
This is not out of the question :lol: I know my way around a jet.

Anyways, I'm thinking about buying my wood now. I have decided to use meranti for the bottom but I am not sure if I should use meranti for everything or if I should get a mix and use okoume for the deck.

Justin Pipkorn
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Re: VG20 models

Post by Justin Pipkorn »

I built a quick and dirty VG20 model. It was helpful in visualizing the boat and storage. Time well spent. Several other builders built some elaborate mantel quality models.

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/just ... PModel.jpg

I had very good results dealing with Dwyer for the VG20 mast. They suggested some parts which weren't in the catalog at the time. They did all the layout on the spar the first time and did several things that I wouldn't have thought of. I rigged a replacement spar myself just buying the mast tube from Dwyer.

The only problem with building models is that it turns into an end in itself and you never get around to building the boat. :lol:
Justin Pipkorn
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