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HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:38 am
by JCordray
So evidently, waiting for plans to come through the post is the longest and hardest part of boatbuilding so far...

:D

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:00 pm
by gstanfield
Yes, it is one of the hardest parts :D

Welcome aboard

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:21 pm
by JCordray
It's okay - I have a few other small projects to work on but it is a little maddening!

The plywood is in the shop, the epoxy, fillers, gloves, stirrers, mixing jars, sticks and other bits are on order. I'll be ready to go whenever Royal Mail get their act together...

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:36 am
by JCordray
The plans have arrived and the work is well under way! Here are a few pictures of the progress so far:

The Plans laid out on the bed for inspection

Image

After working through the plans I went off to the store with my helper John. The wood just barely fit in the car!

Image

I don't have loads of space or money so I have had to improvise a few things, like these:

Image

After getting the wood home and my improvised sawhorses sorted out, the wood went up to get ready for work.

Image

With the wood up I started scribing the lines onto the wood. I think this is called 'lofting' although my son John simply referred to it as drawing on wood. He was very interested in helping with this part!

Image

After getting all the drawings done - which took ages - I had to actually cut something! This was a bit scary and felt like a sort of point of no return. But I chopped away and ended up with the first chine panel:

Image

The plans said to only measure once and then use the first one as a template so cutting out the other three happened a lot faster. Here are all four:

Image

I was pretty determined to finish the cutting of the pieces in one night so I just got on with the business of doing more drawing on wood and cutting. The result? Here:

Image

All of the previous work was done on Thursday and so today, Saturday, it was time to use epoxy and fibreglass tape. This was a first for me and also made me a little nervous. Everyone else makes it look easy and so I didn't want to screw it up. Here are all the pieces of wood laid out on the floor:

Image

Just after this - before mixing up the epoxy - I thought it might be a good idea to put some plastic underneath the wood so I didn't glue it to the garage floor. So that was done and then I primed the wood with epoxy and applied some tape and then wetted out the tape with more epoxy. I was pleasantly surprised to see the fibreglass tape actually go clear like it is supposed to!

Here is the state of things so far:

Image

I have put a heater in the garage now. The space is not insulated so I might as well heat it by burning money directly, but I want the epoxy to set up and cure properly and it was too cold.

A question: Do I need to wait for one side t cure totally before I flip it all over and do the other side? Or could I leave it to set up for a few hours and then flip it over (carefully) and do the other side, weight it down and leave it all to cure for a few days?

TOTAL TIME: 6 HOURS

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:01 pm
by gstanfield
And now the fun really begins :D

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:46 pm
by JCordray
Well there has been a small disaster!

I went to check on the epoxy and discovered it was gluing the plastic I put on top of it! So I pulled the plastic up but this disturbed the fibreglass tape. So then I mixed some more epoxy and put tape back down on the the one which looked 'unsalvageable' and used a bit more epoxy to wet down any bits from the other seams which looked not quite right.

The problem is the floor is a little uneven and so getting a flat joint seemed hard. Then, after all this silliness, I realised I could have just stuck a nice big, FLAT, board underneath all the seams on the floor and weighted the panels on either side of the seams and I would have had nice, flat joints.

Oh well. It looks like it will set up okay now.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:47 pm
by Cracker Larry
A question: Do I need to wait for one side t cure totally before I flip it all over and do the other side?
Yes! Let it cure at least 12 hours, in cool temps maybe longer.
I went to check on the epoxy and discovered it was gluing the plastic I put on top of it!
No problem, just leave it alone until the epoxy dries and it will peel right off.
The problem is the floor is a little uneven and so getting a flat joint seemed hard.
If the joints aren't flat, I'd cut it apart right now, grind off the glass and do it again. I do a lot of things twice :wink: :lol:

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:13 pm
by JCordray
I'm pretty sure I got the joints flat now and can be sure to get the other side flat by using some some spare wood to even out the floor. The epoxy and tape looks pretty good now.

Of course, I am also now cooking up some spicy chicken quesadillas, bacon-wrapped sausages, jalapeno cheese dip and some apple pie with custard to go on it. So with a bottle of white I've got a meal on.

Food before boats methinks...

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:50 pm
by peter-curacao
JCordray wrote: Of course, I am also now cooking up some spicy chicken quesadillas, bacon-wrapped sausages, jalapeno cheese dip and some apple pie with custard to go on it.
Aha that's why that mortar is there as a weight ! :lol:

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:15 pm
by JCordray
So I checked on the seams today after they all set up and cured. Some of them were not so good, like this one:

Image

You can see on the right side the fibreglass tape didn't bond to the wood and epoxy very well. I have taken this apart, ground the epoxy and fibreglass tape off the wood and put some more epoxy and tape on the joint. Now it looks like this:

Image

Is this better?

I had another joint break because of my rough handling of the wood (they are only taped on one side so I think this was the problem) and I did it again as well since the fibreglass tape snapped. Now it looks like this:

Image

Do these look okay? The other three joints look like these so I hope this is okay.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:36 pm
by topwater
Did you glue the ends of the boards togeather before you did the tape :?:
The reason i ask is when i look at the pic's it looks like there is a gap between the boards under the tape
and i know camera angles do some strange things to pic's.
Went back and looked at the pic's again, looks like you are useing to much epoxy.
Roll on just enough to wet the wood , put down the glass tape and use a plastic spreader to
press and flatten the tape out. Only put enough epoxy on tape to make it go clear , dont
try to fill the weave . Hope this helps.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:40 pm
by JCordray
It does help! I do not have a good plastic spreader - yet. So I am working with some cheap brushes. I think I am probably using too much epoxy but I also find it hard to know when enough is enough.

For example, what does it mean to fill the weave? I am guessing I should use just enough epoxy to make the tape clear but leave some of the threads showing. A later coat of epoxy will eliminate these visible threads. Is that description about right?

On a related note, the plans say 'saturate all wood parts with epoxy.' What constitues saturating? Does this mean a thin film of epoxy which wets the wood but has no standing pools or spots?

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:49 pm
by gstanfield
Correct on both wetting out and saturating. This stuff does not take as much epoxy as most beginners use. You want the tape wet out enough that there are no dry spots, but don't try and put it on so thick that you can't feel the weave of the glass when you're done.

I found that some thin nap foam rollers and plastic spreaders work wonderful and save a ton of epoxy. I started out using brushes on my FL14 build and used way too much epoxy.

Keep working, you're doing good :D

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:54 pm
by JCordray
Thanks for the encouragement! I am enjoying working on the project even if it does seem as if I have no idea what I am doing yet. My wife is a bit bemused and amused by it all.

I have some parts curing now and will flip them over tomorrow and tape all five seams. Then the stitching will start. This seems like the fun part to me when the boat will start to look like a boat!

TOTAL TIME: 7 Hours

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:40 am
by JCordray
So I have had a few days off of work and hobbies due to me and the whole family being ill. Tonight I will be looking to get back to the canoe. I have a question though:

All of the panel seams are done so now it is time to stitch the boat together. I am going to try to use duct tape for the most part and only use cable ties if the tape fails me. What is the best way to hold everything in place and get it all fair using the duct tape?

In particular, should I assemble it on the floor as opposed to sawhorses?

This canoe has a bottom panel, one lower chine panel on each side and then one upper chine panel on each side. The plans say attach the lower chine panels to the bottom. So how do I keep the lower chine panels from slipping past the bottom panel?

Okay, so it's more than one question. Let's call it a question with subquestions! :D

Maybe this will all become really obvious when I actually go and do it...

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:45 am
by gstanfield
I can't help you with the duct tape, I use wires and plastic ties to stitch together everything I've built including a 6ft long tug bed I built for my son. I like using copper wire best and plastic ties in non-stressed areas personally as it allows me to fine tune the adjustment of the panels.

Most people here prefer the plastic ties and use them with complete success. I'm just odd :lol:

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:41 pm
by peter-curacao
gstanfield wrote: I like using copper wire best and plastic ties in non-stressed areas
George next time in the stressed areas use the Ty Raps with the ss lock lip inside instead of the plastic lip, they can handle a lot more stress and I mean a lot more :wink: just a tip

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:52 pm
by gstanfield
I have some of those Peter, and you are correct, they are great. I have a ton of them leftover from my 8 years as an electrcician working on heavy equipment / fire trucks, etc. I just prefer working the copper wire, twisting it to "just right" It's kinda like how I prefer to use a hand plane at times instead of my electric plane.

I can't explain it really, it just "feels" right :lol: (we did establish that I'm a bit crazy right?)

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:55 pm
by Cracker Larry
I usually use plastic zip ties but sometimes use wire also. Wire has the advantage of being able to loosen it easily, where if a zip tie is too tight you have to cut it and replace it. And I like a hand plane too :D

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:15 pm
by JCordray
Well I had a go with the duct tape tonight and it was a total, abject failure. Of course, I enjoyed trying and even learned a few things so it has probably been a good night in my (cramped) garage.

Tomorrow I will get some zip ties and something more suitable for the spacers. That should sort it out. And I will also try attaching the correct pieces together... :roll:

Any suggestions on the spacers? I tried using some thin lumber but found the width of the lumber meant I was going to have to mitre cut the end of the spacer somehow to account for the hull angle (the width at the top of the panel being greater than the width at the point 15mm below the top where the spacer meets the panel). Should I get some small-ish dowel rods? Or perhaps really flat bits of wood like 2mm or 4mm wooden slats?

Already your help has been appreciated! My second set of seams looks better than the first!

And your boats look great!!

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:19 pm
by peter-curacao
Not sure I understand you correctly, but short pieces of 5/8 electrical pvc pipe works fine and for wider angles 3/4

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:57 pm
by gstanfield
I use 3/4" pvc cut into short sections then I drill my holes 1/2" from the edge and put my wires in. When I tighten the wires (or zip ties) it will pull the panel tight with about a 1/4" gap which works great for epoxy :wink:

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:13 pm
by Cracker Larry
I seldom use spacers, but I might before this FS18 is put together :D I would use PVC pipe too, beware of wooden dowels, too easy to glue them to the boat :wink:

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:05 am
by topwater
I also use 3/4 pvc pipe , if you want to space the panels were they touch i used small finnish nails
or as we call them brads.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:27 pm
by JCordray
I did manage to do all of the stitches with some cable ties. As I suspected it turned out to be fairly intuitive once I started although there were some nice learning opportunities! Here are some pics:

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pos=-40320
This is when I finished the first side. It felt like an accomplishment!

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pos=-40319
This is when the whole of the lower chine panel was stitched on except the bow and stern. I had my first learning opportunity here when I realized that putting the spacers in before all the stitches was maybe not such a great idea. It made it very hard to get the bow and stern to pull together. So I took out the spacers and did the bow and stern and then put the spacers back in.

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pos=-40318
So here is the whole thing stitched together. I am quite pleased with the result since I have never made a boat before! It actually looks like a boat! After I finished and got to the stern then I realized the stitches would be better on the outside and the spacing of the stitches at the bow was not quite right. So I took an extra half an hour or more and pulled out all the stitches one by one and put them in the other way around.

So now for my questions!

After everything was stitched together there is some overhang from the bottom outside the lower chine panel. Here is a picture:
http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pos=-40317
This only happens on one side of the bow and not at all at the stern. Can I assume this is down to poor measuring/cutting of the bottom panel? It seems not possible to pull the stitch and somehow force the plywood to conform to the outside of the chine panel. The curve looks fair and symmetrical from one side to the other and from front to back. Should I just leave it, filet and glass the inside seams and then cut and plane this bit down?

Generally speaking, if stuff doesn't line up quite right (within a reasonable limit) can I just assume I will be using sanding, filleting, seaming and then fairing to deal with these areas?

How do I work wet on wet with stitches still in place? Some people say to fillet in between the stitches, let the epoxy cure, remove the stitches, fillet the rest and then tape over the fillet. Others say to work wet on wet but how do I do that with the stitches? Surely after the epoxy cures getting the stitches out could be very hard and could damage the new joins?

Finally, after the seams have all cured, will I remove the spacers or will this stress the joints too much and cause them to break as I am putting the upper chine panel on afterwards?

Thanks for your help! I am really enjoying the building process and also the feedback from all of you!

I am also amused because my wife is only now realizing how 'big' this canoe is... :D

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:42 pm
by peter-curacao
LOL I think we all thought you were asking about those kind of spacers
Image

Did you look at this tutorial? you can find a lot of answers there
http://www.bateau2.com/howto/sg101.php

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:07 pm
by cali123

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:55 pm
by dbcrx
JCordray wrote: How do I work wet on wet with stitches still in place? Some people say to fillet in between the stitches, let the epoxy cure, remove the stitches, fillet the rest and then tape over the fillet. Others say to work wet on wet but how do I do that with the stitches? Surely after the epoxy cures getting the stitches out could be very hard and could damage the new joins?
The idea is to just put small fillets, small blobs really, between the stiches, just enough to glue the panels together and replace the stitches. Then when that's cured you can removed the ties and do your main fillet all the way along and then glass onto that. All this bit you can do wet on wet.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:00 pm
by JCordray
I get what you mean Dave. I suppose it is just hard for me to imagine the glue holding when the stitches come out! Of course it probably will - and should - but some of those stitches seem to be under some serious pressure...

Only thing for it is to try though...

Thanks for the tips!

I did look at the tutorial pages by the way and find them generally helpful but also lacking in some small details along the way. They are great and I refer back to them sometimes but still end up with questions from my own lack of knowledge about how to build boats!

:doh:

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:11 pm
by dbcrx
I must add that I'm not saying that out of experience, yet. Just the way I figure it should go. But a 2-3cm fillet of epoxy should hold a lot more than a plastic cable tie - it's sticky stuff! Remember to paint a thin coat of neat epoxy onto the wood where the fillets are going to go before putting the putty mix in. That way the epoxy will bond right down into the grain of the wood as well.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:12 pm
by peter-curacao
Okay just making sure you saw those pages, trust me the glue will hold

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:22 am
by JCordray
Thanks for the tips!

My wife and I did the spot welds and you are all right! They do hold!

While this does not seem a miracle to someone who has done this before it was a little more miraculous for me. All of the effort that went into bending the ply and making it shape up seemed to make those little fillets seem weak. But they cured overnight and I took a few cable ties out and the wood holds without moving so all is well.

I don't have any pictures just now but will post some later. I will start on running the fillets out for the whole seams now.

An odd thing happened though and I wondered if it has happened to anyone else. The epoxy I am using is from a company called Resin Research and contains no formaldehyde and seems to be a bit friendlier around children as well. Up until I mixed it with the wood flour it has never shown any tendency to heat up. Maybe it has gotten a little warm but not enough to really notice. Then I mixed it up with the wood flour and put it into a plastic bag. A few minutes later the bag was smoking and melting and the epoxy had gone off and hardened. What causes this?

1) The wood flour? Seems unlikely...
2) The plastic bag reacts with some of the epoxy chemicals? Perhaps...
3) The bag was closed and thus the lack of air caused a problem? Dunno chemically how this might happen...
4) Extra stirring due to mixing wood flour caused some extra heat?
5) Maybe mixture proportions were off somehow? I did mix the epoxy and hardener and then add the wood flour so I am pretty sure the mix was right but maybe not...

Any thoughts?

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:48 am
by peter-curacao
I think we all had that at least once, it's because of the mass in other words al the epoxy packed together in the bag, if this batch of epoxy was spreaded over a larger surface this most likely wouldn't have happened, next time try make a smaller batch until you are comfortable and fast enough handling bigger batches. Hope this explains it

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:52 am
by JCordray
That does help! I had been making up fairly large batches - 150 ml at a time. I thought this was too large so I have gone today and purchased some plastic 1oz shot glasses to measure the stuff out in. They are 50 for £1 so I can just use them and throw them away. Some plastic cups to contain and mix with and I am good to go - I think.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:06 pm
by dbcrx
Don't worry. As already mentioned, you're not the only one. Even after 4 years of using epoxy, I still get caught out ocassionally and have to throw a smoking pot of filler over the side of the boat!

Basically, it's a bit of everything you mentioned. Epoxy always gives off heat when it's curing, and the hotter it is the quicker it will "kick off". So the extra mixing will add a bit of heat then the bag will contain the heat making it even warmer. The more quantity you mix the quicker all this will happen.

As for the mix ratio, it depends on the brand. With the resin I use (C systems) you can play with the 2:1 ratio a bit to make it cure faster or slower. However with something like the West systems which is a 5:1 mix, if you don't get it right it just won't cure at all.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:08 pm
by sds
You guys might find this epoxy measuring method useful:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/fiberg ... 12809.html

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:42 pm
by dbcrx
That sounds like far too much effort. :lol: Much easier to just use these:
Image

And cured epoxy just pulls out so you can still use them over and over again. Although it is a good idea if you can only get plain cups.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:39 pm
by sds
Yep. Lots of options. Whatever floats your boat. :lol:

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:28 am
by JCordray
So I have finished one of the two bottom seams now. The fillets seemed small to me but others have said new builders tend to make their fillets too big. Here are a couple of pics:

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pos=-40390

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pos=-40389

These two are slightly different widths. I stuck my finger in there to give you some idea of the size. The fillets seem smaller where the gap between the two panels is widest. This is because more of the flour/epoxy putty went between the panels in the gap. Do these look alright?

At any rate, I managed to get one seam done while everything was wet and it is setting up nicely. I'll post some pics of it later I think - my phone battery died last night!

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:40 am
by jacquesmm
Mixing epoxy:
It's all here, on our HowTo site
http://www.bateau2.com/howto/epoxy_mixing.php
and a movie here:
http://www.bateau2.com/howto/mix_epoxy.php

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:04 pm
by dbcrx
They do look a little small to me too. Check your plans - mine for the chenoa have a recommended fillet size on the lamination schedule, I think. I would aim for around 6mm radius. And you want to try and get them as smooth as possible by making a tool or using a spoon or tongue depressor etc. If you get the shape right now then glass will keep it perfect leaving little filling/fairing afterwards.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:21 pm
by JCordray
Yeah - I was using a tongue depressor to shape them and some bits turned out much better than others. The lamination schedule calls for fillets with a 1/2" radius. I think my tongue depressor makes them too small so I am going to chop off the rounded end and see if a straight edge will give me more fillet left after shaping.

Does the 1/2" radius mean the finished fillet should be 1/2" wide with a concave middle or does it mean it should be 1" wide with the same concave middle?

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:56 pm
by Seadation
JCordray wrote: Does the 1/2" radius mean the finished fillet should be 1/2" wide with a concave middle or does it mean it should be 1" wide with the same concave middle?
Hello JCordray,

You can make a fillet with a 1/2" radius by using the edge of a round object with a 1" diameter. There are many ways to do this...perhaps trim the corner of one of your squeegies to the correct radius, use a piece of pvc pipe, etc. A tongue depressor is approx 3/4" wide which yields a 3/8" radius curve its end...so the tongue depressor is too small to give you the 1/2" radius.

Fair winds,

/david

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:35 pm
by peter-curacao
Use those, most marine shops sell those in bulk but also separate at least here they do, they are reusable after the epoxy dried it cracks right off those sticks

Image

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:52 pm
by JCordray
The whole bottom section is now finished! Well, sort of...I have to flip it over and do the bottom now.

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pos=-40459

I have managed, despite the entire family still being unwell in various ways, to carry on working. The bottom seams are done and the inside has been coated in epoxy.

So, what exactly does 'saturated with epoxy mean?' I think I have asked this before but still feel a little nervous about how little epoxy seems to stay in some places. Afte applying some with the brush I spread it around with a plastic spreader. I did both sides and about half of the bottom with about 6 oz of epoxy. This was a lot more frugal than my first attempts...

Now I need to flip it over and work on the bottom.

TOTAL TIME SO FAR: 14 HOURS

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:31 pm
by Cracker Larry
Looks great. That's a nice looking canoe. Let's put it here..

Image

The plastic spreader is the most frugal method to apply the epoxy. Do that about 3 times with a very light sanding between coats.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:47 am
by JCordray
Ah - so I need two more coats then...back to work for me!

When I use the plastic spreader it leaves some raised areas and some places looking like they have only changed color without absorbing much epoxy. I am guessing the three coats will even this out and leave it (sort of) smooth...

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:21 am
by dbcrx
If it's changed colour then it has absorbed the epoxy. The following coats will leave a bit more resin as the wood will now be sealed so it won't soak in as much. Sanding between will take off the ridges. Or if you do the next coat before it fully cures you may be able to flatten out the ridges while spreading on the next coat.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:36 am
by JCordray
More work has been done on the canoe now and I have flipped it over to do the bottom of the hull. There is an awful lot of fairing to do to get all the joints looking right I think.

After I flipped it over I spent some time with a wire cup brush attached to my drill grinding off excess epoxy and filleting material. The wire brush attachment makes really short work of this! It could even grind off extra plywood but it is a bit roughr than I would like for that. A plane and sanding disc will be better for that I think.

Between my poor jigsaw skills and the places where the plywood didn't quite line up when it was stitched together, the joints have some issues.

Nothing a sanding disc attached to my drill won't fix though!

I will post some pictures later...

I really like the lines of this canoe already! I know Dave is building the Chenoa and his work is a bit prettier than mine but I like the shape of the Hiawatha more. I think the double chine look is going to be great when it is done!

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:02 am
by gk108
A Stanley surform will clean up the extra epoxy and overlaps quickly and cleanly. :wink:

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:20 pm
by dbcrx
JCordray wrote: Between my poor jigsaw skills and the places where the plywood didn't quite line up when it was stitched together, the joints have some issues.

Nothing a sanding disc attached to my drill won't fix though!

I will post some pictures later...

I really like the lines of this canoe already! I know Dave is building the Chenoa and his work is a bit prettier than mine but I like the shape of the Hiawatha more. I think the double chine look is going to be great when it is done!
That's the great thing about this sort of construction - anything can be fixed with a bit of epoxy! Your work's neat enough though, and you're beating me on time I think. The prettyness takes time, I'm up to about 25 hours already! And actually, I'd have probably gone with the HC as well, but the Chenoa uses less ply so it won on price.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:16 pm
by JCordray
How much plywood does your Chenoa take? The HC14 uses three sheets so I'm guessing you're only two...

I bought some good quality exterior plywood and have been pleased with it so far. So the extra cost for me was not very high. Marine plywood is about two and a half times the price so I didn't want to risk it on my first build.

Tonight I went to work shaping the joints properly on the bottom. A good block plane and a sureform plane worked wonders for me! I don't like the sureform very much as it feels like working wood with a cheese grater but it seems to work well and be a lot more efficient than sandpaper. The big trouble spot near the bow is sorted out and so are the raised lips near the stern.

This is what the boat looks like now:

Image

The outside seams are looking like a strange sort of filleting job. A lot of the epoxy leaked through from the inside. I put duct tape over the seams so this leaked filleting material actually filled much of the gaps. When I have sanded it down and flattened it to fair up the joints it seems to leave not much room for new fillets. I am guessing I should just fill any gaps and bring the whole fillet up to a nice smooth level so the fibreglass tape can go on top and make a nice seam.

Here is a picture of what I mean:

Image

The filleting material just left of center is about level with where the joint needs to be but there is a deep gap to the right of it. So I think I will need to mix up some filleting material and run it all along the seam to fill in the gaps but not necessarily to build up the joint any higher.

That sound about right?

Total build time so far: 16 Hours

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:15 am
by dbcrx
Right on the outside fillets. No need to put more on if you've already got a smooth rounded over joint. Just fill the remaining gaps the glass it.

Yes the chenoa is 2 sheets for the hull (16'). The rubrails, seats and breasthooks would take another half sheet or so, but I managed to find scraps or use foam and glass for all that. And over here I can get marine ply for not a lot more than exterior. Wood is expensive here, even for plain old cheap crappy stuff! But we have a shipwright next door who orders his ply in from UK. My 4mm was about €36 a sheet at mates rates.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:47 pm
by JCordray
So there has been a little delay due to the holidays but work has resumed on the canoe. I am the Pastor of a church so this is a full time on the calendar!

Today I have put two coats of epoxy on the outside of the bottom of the hull as well as filleting and glassing the seams. Here is what she looked like after one coat of epoxy:

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pos=-40747

The frot and back need some tidying up but this was done with the second coat. I cut away the extra fibreglass tape and then filled it all up with epoxy so it should be good to go now.

Dave suggested three coats of epoxy when done with a scraper. I think I will work with two for now and then do a third coat after the whole canoe is assembled if it is necessary. The epoxy seems to have done well with two coats but there are maybe a few pinhole type spots to fill.

TOTAL TIME SO FAR: 19 HOURS

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:34 pm
by gstanfield
Good to see progress :)

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:31 pm
by Doc_Dyer
JCordray wrote:So there has been a little delay due to the holidays but work has resumed on the canoe. I am the Pastor of a church so this is a full time on the calendar!

Today I have put two coats of epoxy on the outside of the bottom of the hull as well as filleting and glassing the seams. Here is what she looked like after one coat of epoxy:

Image
The frot and back need some tidying up but this was done with the second coat. I cut away the extra fibreglass tape and then filled it all up with epoxy so it should be good to go now.

Dave suggested three coats of epoxy when done with a scraper. I think I will work with two for now and then do a third coat after the whole canoe is assembled if it is necessary. The epoxy seems to have done well with two coats but there are maybe a few pinhole type spots to fill.

TOTAL TIME SO FAR: 19 HOURS

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:24 pm
by JCordray
This is just a quick post to say the build is still going on! I have the hull totally assembled now and need to just finish another coat of epoxy on the Upper Chine. Then I will fit the breasthooks and seats and rubrail. This part seems really exciting to me because then it will be on to the fairing and sanding! Then it will be done!!

I have a question though since I am sitting here - and without the plans in front of me - do the breasthooks need to be something other than plywood? Should I double up the plywood to make it that much stronger? I am planning to install some small-ish breasthooks and then bolt some roping points on.

The breasthooks and seats are a real challenge for my limited carpentry skills. I am not incredibly confident in getting a brilliant fit but I think I can fit them in and then cover any mistakes with epoxy, fairing compound and paint.

I'll post some pics soon.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:23 am
by Boater45
Looking good JC!!

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:57 pm
by JCordray
Well, now I am going to give a proper update and ask some questions as well. here is what she looks like just now:

Image

I am pretty pleased with the results so far. Everything is assembled and epoxied. To finish the hull I have to install some breasthooks, two seats and a yoke/bar in the middle. Pretty normal stuff I guess. Not that I know how to do any of these things...

:)

Here is another look from the other end of the boat:

Image

The spacers have had to stay in because the top pulls out of shape without them. I think this should cease to be the case once the breasthooks go in because they will give strength to the initial angle at the bow and stern.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention I also have to put the rub rails on. Here is a question about that:

I have a friend who is a boat builder in Norfolk and I asked him about the rub rails. He suggested bending one thick piece of wood rather than the three pieces of plywood laminated together the plans suggest. Does anyone have any idea whether it would be better to simply bend one thicker piece of wood (18mm) rather than bending and gluing three thinner ones (6mm)?

Here is what the bow and stern look like:

Image

Okay, admittedly this is only one of them but they are symmetrical! At least, I think so...

This is not the shape on the plans because I made an error earlier on in the cutting stage and didn't catch it until after it was all assembled. There was a gap of nearly five inches between the ends of the bottom panels and the ends of the top panels. While Jacques suggested epoxy, tape and filler could bridge this (and he could be right) I was not sure. Since it was my boat I decided to go a little off the plans and simply shorten the top panel so the ends met properly. Then I raked the top panel back towards the middle to give it some shape and there it is now. Maybe I should also have made the canoe a little narrower at the spacing point closest to each end (shorter canoe means slightly sharper curves at each end) but I did not know how to recalculate the width so I left the spacing as per the original specs.

When I am installing the breasthooks I want to use a nicer bit of wood and leave it unpainted. The same goes for the rubrail and seats. To keep the breasthooks securely in place do I need a cleat glued on as a support for them like the seats will be done?

I am thinking to hold the breasthooks in place with small pins nailed through the side of the boat while I put a wood flour fillet on their undersides and then tape that joint (just on the bottom and not the top so it is not visible). Will this be sufficiently strong?

Well - that's about it for now. I need to make some time - probably Monday - to go to a good wood shop and get some decent wood for the seats and breasthooks.

TOTAL BUILD TIME: 25 HOURS

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:51 pm
by dbcrx
Rubrails - a solid piece of timber would look very nice, but would be a lot harder to fit. If it's like mine, you have to bend the pieces upwards towards the ends as well as in to the bow. This was tricky enough with the 6mm ply which bends quite easily, with solid timber I would think you'd have to cut it to match one of the curves at least. Even then it might be a struggle, it's quite a tight curve on the canoes. And anyway, plywood can still look very nice varnished, you'll just have a lot of stripey layers visible on the top. But if you made them a few mm wider to begin with and then sand them all down flush, it would be an interesting little feature.

This is what mine looked like when fitted. I didn't bother too much getting mine flush at the top though as it's all painted.
Image
Image

As for the breasthooks, pinning them and filleting underneath should be fine. If you're leaving the ends open it will be neater that way. Mine were just glued down on 1" cleats with a bit of a rough fillet but they're hidden in the storage compartment. They plenty strong enough though. Either way, get some epoxy in the edges as well to fill any gaps between the breasthook and hull.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:13 pm
by jacquesmm
About rubrails:
Many of my designs have single curvature sheer lines. I design them that way for several reasons and one is that the rubrails are easy to bend.
Not all have simple curvature sheers. The V10 and V12 don't, same for some of the canoes.
Those rails must be laminated from thin plywood.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:15 am
by JCordray
I have now done some more work!

Thanks Jacques for the info about the rubrails. I have found them to be not very difficult to bend and they tend to have only a small amount of curvature needed upwards towards the bow and the stern. Maybe this is because the canoe has been shortened a little bit...

On the instructions it said to install the breasthooks prior to the rubrails. I faithfully did this and have since realised this makes my job harder. It would have been nice to be able to clamp directly to the hull rather than trying to work above the breasthooks. I have used duct tape and have a passable result but I could have saved myself some aggro by doing this in the reverse order I think.

Anyway, here is a picture of some of the progress:

Image

The rubrails are taking ages but that is due to my own slowness in working. Once they are done and a yoke goes in then I am going to be fairing the boat. Hopefully that process will not take too long since I am not working towards a yacht finish.

TOTAL BUILD TIME SO FAR: 30 HOURS

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:23 pm
by ks8
30 hours... nice! Got an idea yet when she'll be all sealed up enough for a splash... or will you finish her completely first? :)

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:57 pm
by JCordray
I think I will finish her completely before she goes in the water. Since we moved to the UK I have not purchased any of the extra stuff I will need like life jackets, paddles and - well, that's it really. I will also have to get a waterways license so before the canoe goes in the water there is more work to do out of the water. Soon, though. Soon!

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:33 pm
by ks8
8)

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:15 pm
by JCordray
Now I have finished the rubrail installation! Praise the Lord for that!

:)

There is still some work to do with them to pretty them up some so they are easier to paint and finish.

But the hull is now done!

TOTAL BUILD TIME: 32 HOURS

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:52 pm
by ks8
8)

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:41 am
by JCordray
Well - it's been a long time since I have made an update here about my progress! Sorry about that!

I have not quit working but have found it difficult to carve out time to get the canoe finished. However, I gave myself a deadline and am scrambling to get her done in time now.

Here is a pic of the progress:

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pid=43903

This is the canoe with a coat of sealant applied. Maybe this was an unnecessary step but the people at International Paints recommended this before using their Toplac paint. I don't mind the extra cost too much if it gives me a better paint job.

Of course, the paint job is dependent on my fairing skills - which are not brilliant! But I got it done to a point where I think it is good enough for a first project.

I'll post some more pics when I get them all in one place. First coat of shiny paint going on today!

TOTAL BUILD TIME: 50 HOURS

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:13 pm
by ks8
8) 8)

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:42 pm
by JCordray
Tonight I put the first coat of gloss on the outside of the hull. That was exciting! A bit nerve-wracking as well since I keep thinking it is all going to go wrong soon but it's done now anyway. Here is what it looks like:

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pid=43906

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pid=43904

The colour is called "Mauritius Blue" and is a dark navy. The inside will be white when I get her flipped over and faired up properly.

The fairing on the outside isn't too bad after the first coat of paint. There will be a few obvious rough spots and a whole lot of not very obvious ones but overall I think I will be quite pleased. I am still loving the lines of the boat!!

TOTAL BUILD TIME: 52 HOURS

BTW - whenever I try to post images it says "It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image." Anyone know why this is the case? They have uploaded fine to the builder's galleries.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:59 pm
by ks8
Looks like you are launching this summer! :D 8)

Regarding the posting of pictures to the forum area:

Acceptable forum image metadata specs:
640 pixels wide x 480 pixels height (it seems the forum accepts up to 800 x 600)
100 DPI or PPI (pixels per inch) or less
file size under 1024k (1 mb)
24 bit color RGB or 8 bit grayscale


I do not know what the forum would do with settings outside (greater than) these ranges. As long as I have stayed within these specs, I have never had a problem. For instance, I do not know if a 48 bit color CMYK image will display or even upload.

Now, putting that into easier language:

JPG images have not only the actual image data, but also something called *metadata*. Forum Web browser pages typically do not show the *metadata* of jpg's, but often utilize some of the metadata for formatting the display of the picture. *Metadata* includes things like:

physical dimensions in inches or pixels
the resolution within those dimensions in DPI or PPI
the camera, lense, speed, f stop, date and time when the image was taken
the GPS coordinates of the image (on many smart phones now)

Many *image* gallery services on the web, like the Coppermine that Bateau uses, does not care too much about metadata. The gallery software figures it out enough to know whether the image is allowable in specified limits of size for the gallery. The webmaster sets some of those limits.

The forum pages are another matter. They might be much more tempermental regarding metadata. The forum pages may not *figure out* how to fit unspecified image dimensions into the forum page display, even though the gallery software is not as picky. Results? One posts to the gallery pages alright, but the links into the forum are rejected.

If needful metadata is NOT present in the image file that is uploaded, the forum pages might not accept it, and give any number of reasons for rejecting the image link, such as the one you are getting.

How does metadata get included in an image file?
The device software capturing the image (scanner, digital camera, smartphone camera) often attaches the metadata, but some device software packages (the software in the device - firmware) do not attach metadata if your preferences or settings do not require it to do so. Who wants to read that manual? :lol:

So, if you are getting that message when trying to post image links, most likely it is either because some metadata is outside of the allowable range that has been specified by a webmaster (and the error message is misleading), or, the image file is missing some required metadata, and the forum software, not being as clever as the gallery software, is not taking the required computer clock cycles to run extra code to *figure it out* (this makes the forum more efficient as long as uploaded images contain the necessary metadata).

Solution:
If your image files are missing required metadata (dimensions and pixel resolution within those dimensions), then simply edit your images in a graphics program, before uploading to the gallery. Use a graphics program that will add the required metadata. I think, these days, just about every editing program adds the metadata to the image file, even if it doesn't tell you that it is doing so, other than in that fine print on page 1073 addendum ZX of the user manual. So open your images in any graphics editing program, look for some command that gives you the ability to specifically assign dimensions and resolution, make sure they are within forum limits, save the file, and THEN upload it into the gallery, finally linking the uploaded gallery image into the forum posting.

If you want users to have access to a higher res image (even though the forum rejects it), upload the higher res image into the gallery only (but it won't link into the forum). Bear in mind also that Bateau has an occasional need to upgrade hardware capacity, if users regularly post very high res images into the galleries. Hardware may be cheaper than ever, but the labor and downtime to accomplish the upgrade is expensive. Sticking with those specs given at the beginning of this post, will work without the need for continual hardware upgrades (we all suffer during the upgrade downtime). :D

The webmaster can provide more exacting details, but, imho, they are not needed at all by the end user (us), and I hope this post already says more than enough to resolve the image posting and linking difficulty, assuming your images are being uploaded to the Bateau galleries. If you are using another gallery service, still, make sure your images have the required metadata before the upload into those other picture gallery services. :)

There is a wide range of experience among the users of these forums at Bateau. If you share what camera and editing software you are using, there is sure to be at least one builder who can tell you what setting to correct so your images will be accepted into the forum pages as well as the galleries. :)

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:05 pm
by ks8
All that being said... it seems this may not be your problem entirely. I tried linking one of your images and it worked! I used this code (seen here in green text)...

Code: Select all

[img]http://gallery.bateau2.com/albums/userpics/72342/normal_P7160049.JPG[/img]
ImageP7160049

:)

Then this one:

Code: Select all

http://gallery.bateau2.com/albums/userpics/72342/normal_P7160051.JPG
ImageP7160051

even though this one does display in my browser, it is pushing beyond the specs. Here is the image data for P7160051:

Image

853 is greater than a safer 800, or better still, a 640 pixel width. And the 640 height is greater than a safer max height of 600. And yet, it is displaying! Aim at those dimension specs in the previous post (800x600 max, or safer, 640x480), follow the guidelines of the image *code* by pasting in the full location of the image file according to the gallery, and all should work. :)

I'm thinking that maybe you specified 640 as the height, instead of the width, and your software auto adjusted the width to 853 to keep the images proper proportions. Try to make sure width is 640 (or 800max), and height is 480 (or 600max), and you should be good to go.

It can be said more simply, but hopefully this wordy version can help others in the future also, who find these posts using the search feature. :)

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:56 am
by JCordray
Thanks for the tips on the pictures! I had it figured out once before and then forgot. You are using a link to the file's location and I was using the link provided in the photo gallery. I'm trying again here:

Image

That's the work I did last night - two and a half hours of sanding! All was well until the motor burned up on my sander. Then it was elbow grease time with the torture pad. I managed though and was left wondering if the manual labour produces a better result than the machine...

TOTAL TIME SO FAR: 54 Hours

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:48 am
by ks8
Getting there! 8)

I had to change pads often on the RO. They dull quickly even on the fairing blends. Nothing like a fresh pad. :) Plan to buy them in bulk... for the next build. :wink: Vacuuming the dust away, often, helps minimize clogging also. A hidden cost in a larger build is replacing the burned out shop vac once (even using a water pre-filter). But it becomes worth it at the first splash. :)

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:01 am
by JCordray
Yeah, I don't have a great vacuum so getting rid of the dust is not terribly easy. Today though I have replaced the cheap sander with a Bosch orbital sander with a dust box and hopefully this will keep the place a bit tidier.

The dust looks like this:

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pid=43999 (This is a bigger pic and I didn't downsize it! But I think, thanks to the earlier help, that I have cracked the process for posting pics here.)

It was snowing in my garage!

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:23 am
by JCordray
Last night I had a friend come around and help with the canoe a bit. We got the inside cleaned out and then put on the first coat of sealant (International's Interprotect). On to some primer now!

Here is what she looks like:

Image

The paint ran out before the canoe did and so I just added on a coat of epoxy to the near breasthook. I figured this will be just as good as the Interprotect at sealing the canoe against water damage. The coat was applied with a brush so it is pretty thick. What I was really pleased about was how smooth the finish of the epoxy was after having been applied to some very smooth surfaces!

If I am applying primer on top of primer do I need to wait for the overcoating time or can I roll on a new coat when the first is touch dry?

TOTAL BUILD TIME: 54 HOURS

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:14 pm
by dbcrx
You can go with the next coat once the first is touch dry if you just want to pile the paint on thick (you may need to keep the roller wetter to avoid lifting the first coat off), but this will leave more roller texture that will need to be sanded flat. If you want a nice finish you're better off letting each coat cure and giving a light sand between.

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:25 pm
by JCordray
Tonight I put on the first coat of primer on the inside of the canoe. Here is what she looks like:

Image
Image
Image

I plan to put another coat of primer on tomorrow night, the first coat of Toplac on the inside on Sunday night, then a second (and final) coat of Toplac on the outside on Monday night and then the final coat of paint on the inside on Tuesday night. Hopefully this will allow a couple of days for the paint on in the inside to cure fully so it can be sanded properly between coats.

Then it will be done! And we'll be off to Tewkesbury to put it in the water and test her out!

TOTAL BUILD TIME: 55.5 HOURS

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:47 pm
by jaygee
Greetings,
You have built fine canoe, and I particularly like your color scheme. Did you mention the brand of paint you used? Anyway, great job.
jaygee

Re: HC14 Build - First Ever

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:03 pm
by JCordray
I BUILT A BOAT!

Image

There she is! It took me about 8 months to find a little less than 60 hours to get this boat finished but I have thoroughly enjoyed the process!

We put her in the water tonight in the Medway River with some friendly people from the Maidstone Canoe Club. The canoe carried two men and two little men for two hours and about 3 miles. The stability was quite good, especially after we got the boys settled down a bit. It seemed to track well despite my poor steering from the stern. It is quite heavy (I don;t know the exact weight) but I could get it up onto my shoulders alone if I had to. With two men it wasn't too bad lifting the boat onto the car.

Image

The bow and stern shape is quite different to the plans but this is my own fault. Still, I am really pleased with the results! There are loads of ways the boat could be made better in terms of quality of work but this has been a real learning process for me. The result is a boat which doesn't flip itself upside down so I'm happy.

There is a pretty fair amount of room in the boat. We had two little boys in the middle and a man up in the bow. The boys were slightly cramped but not terribly so. They could have had even more room but I'm 6'4" and so my legs take up some room! I didn't do any kneeling because of the boys but I did install the seats a bit lower than the plans suggested so I felt okay with my own balance. Here are the crew:

Image

All in all, I am really pleased! Thanks to all of you for your help, encouragement and to the guys for the plans!

Image