Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Posted: **Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:31 pm**

Jacques or anyone else who can help, I'm looking at the Flyer plans, I think my English language knowledge falls short here or the "plans" are just written very unclear.
I think when I understand how to draw out all the 15 frames I will be able to set them up on a strong back and figure out the rest from there, can you point me out in the right direction or help me with it? Also I was thinking building this boat completely out plywood (strips) is that achievable? frames 18 mm? bottom 12 mm? sides mm 6mm ? Also I don't see any stringers is that correct? the more I look at those plans the less I understand them

But I really like the model and style of that little boat.

Posted: **Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:30 pm**

That is a very nice project.

If you want to start, it works like this:
for every station, you mark points like in my drawings then join the points.
You have the width and the height for each point.
For example, look at station 3 (column 3).
For the point that marks the chine, the width is 23-6 (23-6/8" away from the CL) and the height above baseline is 11-1 = 11-1/8" above the BL. That gives you a point.
Mark all the points and you have a station.
There is however a problem: those lines may not be fair and you have to loft that. We do that with great precision on the computer. We work with surfaces, not lines.
I don't think that table comes from a loft.

More:

This summer, my son is working with me, drafting with me a couple hours a day. He finished high school, got a drafting diploma in addition to his AP classes and before he starts college (engineering path), we think it is good idea to give him a real job: summer job at E-Boat.
Right now, he is finishing his first design (with my help). You will all be impressed.
After that, he will build the boat he designed but he has another project on his list: redraw an Atkins design for which we will cut a kit.
That leads us to your Flyer project.
I will teach him to read a table of offset, transfer it it to CAD, fair the lines etc.
To redesign the Flyer could be a great way to practice that.
I'll do it for free ( for you only) but it will take a few weeks. He needs 2 or 3 days to finish the plans for his first boat (the Primitus) and after that, he needs another 2 or 3 days to produce the CNC files.
Begin July, he can loft the Flyer on the computer and it should not take him more than 2 or 3 days to produce the hull then 3 days to extract stations.
You'll get the lines free but later we will sell the loft file.

Scantlings: I see stringers of two types: the little battens on the bottom and a pair of long ones on top of the floor frames.
It is not well documented.
We can adapt that to our material: sandwich bottom with our regular stringers and floor frames.

Bottom 6 mm core, sides 6, plywood framing 10 mm, deck 4 or plank. All that plus glass in and out.
If you strip in cedar, it will be thicker but I would do the bottom and chine panel in plywood, strip plywood above that.
That may look thin but we have Phantoms that are larger and heavier and go 55 mph with a 6 mm bottom.

All glass chines, bow etc. no fasteners: racing boats are not held together with screws anymore since 1950!

Posted: **Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:39 pm**

More: that thing has a step at Sta 8/9. You must fair/loft the bottom as 2 separate surfaces.
I suggest an improvement: feed air to the step with a cut in the side. Without that, it will cavitate, too much negative P at the step.

Posted: **Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:38 pm**

Thank you Jacques,

I think I'm starting to get is now (see pic), if so based on the table I'm missing some measurements, but that's probably me.
Base to top
Base to sheer
Base to chine
What's not clear to me why aren't they working from the keel or dwl but from a baseline under the keel?

Also I think I see a second step at station 15?

Posted: **Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:59 pm**

There is no inner chine at Sta 3, it starts right there. See the lines drawing. That is why the dimensions are the same. For the deck, it is customary to show the camber, the apex and nothing else.
I posted something last week on how to draw a traditional deck as a parabol.

It looks like you got it but watch out for that step.

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:45 pm**

I still didn't find those other dimensions

jacquesmm wrote:There is no inner chine at Sta 3, it starts right there. See the lines drawing. That is why the dimensions are the same. For the deck, it is customary to show the camber, the apex and nothing else.
I posted something last week on how to draw a traditional deck as a parabol.

What's an apex? also I don't see any camber on the side panels,there should be one I think?

Can you provide me the link to that post please?

jacquesmm wrote:It looks like you got it but watch out for that step.

Yes it's nice to understand it a little, but still I think I wait until your sons redesign of the Flyer, better safe then sorry

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:01 pm**

peter-curacao wrote:I still didn't find those other dimensions

Which ones?

What's an apex? also I don't see any camber on the side panels,there should be one I think?
Can you provide me the link to that post please?

No camber in the side panels except thoase coming from the conical projection but that is none of your concern, you draw the lines, not the surfaces.
Apex is the highest point of a curve, in this case, the centerline of the deck.[
The deck discussion is here:
http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php ... 21#p362944
better, see pic:

Step by step:
- draw deck beam = line.
- at CL, draw circle R=crown (that's in the offset table as deck height)
- divide horizontal R by 4
- divide arc by 4
- divide half beam by 4
- pull parallels to intersections.
- join by deck curve

That will produce the deck crown shown on the plans.

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:30 pm**

peter-curacao wrote:I still didn't find those other dimensions

jacquesmm wrote:Which ones?

The ones on my drawing

jacquesmm wrote:(that's in the offset table as deck height).

O wait a minute now I see in the PDF, I'm missing a part of the offset table in my printed hard copy last 2 rows were cut of

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:46 pm**

Btw I'm also missing the max amount of HP I can put in her, maybe it's there but I can't find it

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:35 pm**

That engine is the famous Universal Four block and delivered from 25 to 60 HP depending on the versions.
Search for Atomic Four.

But you are going to put that 500HP turbo charged V8 in there, correct?

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:42 pm**

I am correct about the block but maybe wrong about the max. HP. I think they went up to 90 . . . not certain.
Look for Rotax engines. They should fit.
Or cannibalize one from a jetski as we did.
You have to find a bell housing and transmission.

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:45 pm**

jacquesmm wrote:
But you are going to put that 500HP turbo charged V8 in there, correct?

LOL

is that even possible? first ride would probably be the last one also

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:17 pm**

Found some pics of her, beautiful boat imo, when you look in the engine compartment it looks like the side panels does have a camber or is that an optical illusion? Also looks like a V8 is possible

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:31 pm**

Yes, the engine hatch has camber.That's easy: build the deck in one piece with camber and cut out. I thing there are pictures of how we did it with the jetAbout.

Nice pictures.I wonder what engine that is.
They have a standard bell housing and a Borg warner tranny in there, probably a 1:1, again easy to find. I wonder what that intermediate plate is, maybe an adapter for the bell housing or then they have super duper flex plate damper thicker than normal. Nothing that even a small machine shop can handle.

Peter, it's time that you make friends with a guy that owns a machine shop.

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:35 pm**

I wonder what that engine is. Some flat head V8. I see 8 leads coming from the distributor.
It must be tight in there because they moved the fuel pump to the top. That's too hot = vapor locks.
And that thing in the front looks like a magneto, no alternator.
I would look for something lighter.

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:11 pm**

Flathead Ford series 8BA, made from 1949 -1953. 100 HP.

Posted: **Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:27 pm**

Thank you. It's great to have engine connoisseurs on the forum!

Posted: **Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:23 am**

keysrat wrote:Flathead Ford series 8BA, made from 1949 -1953. 100 HP.

Thx

Posted: **Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:25 am**

jacquesmm wrote:Yes, the engine hatch has camber.That's easy: build the deck in one piece with camber and cut out. I thing there are pictures of how we did it with the jetAbout.

Yes but I was talking about the side panels

Posted: **Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:50 pm**

What a beautiful looking boat. I love the idea of this in stitch/glue. Seems like it would be another great boat to use a jet ski donor motor. Definitely on board with this idea

Will

Posted: **Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:36 pm**

Jacques I think I have correctly fill out all the measurements, a double check would be very much appreciated, don't mind the station forms to much, I know they will be a bit different in real.
Also could you take a look at the notes I made at stations 9, 10 and 11 ? at the last page I put in some frame measurements I think the 80 mm will work if I compare it with the notes, but the thickens you told me 10 mm your sure about that? the notes say 3/4 so wouldn't 18 mm ply better?
Also could you take a look at my earlier question about the frames caber with the frame pic

Thank you

Posted: **Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:42 pm**

Peter, I'll take a look at it but I have a good number of kits to ship out plus my regular business and
open heart surgery next month.
But I will look at it because I want this built to succeed. If one person can do it, it's you.
OK, Larry and some others are just as able technically but you have the enthusiasm for that type of boat.
I will check your figures.

Posted: **Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:49 pm**

jacquesmm wrote:Peter, I'll take a look at it but I have a good number of kits to ship out plus my regular business and
open heart surgery next month.
But I will look at it because I want this built to succeed. If one person can do it, it's you.
OK, Larry and some others are just as able technically but you have the enthusiasm for that type of boat.
I will check your figures.

Thx Jacques just take it easy, no hurry here we are leaving soon for a 3 weeks vacation anyway

Posted: **Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:30 pm**

Peter.

I haven't looked into the stations in super great detail, but I am not sure why station 6 would be narrower than 5 and 7? It seems like that would be a bad idea for fairing?

Will

Btw: I want this boat in a jet, so let me know how I can help. I love it!

Posted: **Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:48 pm**

wegcagle wrote:Peter.

I haven't looked into the stations in super great detail, but I am not sure why station 6 would be narrower than 5 and 7? It seems like that would be a bad idea for fairing?

Will

Btw: I want this boat in a jet, so let me know how I can help. I love it!

Thank you very much Will, almost sure you're right

, I think I misread 26 and should be 28 assuming you're talking about the center line to sheer measurement.
enlarging and printing those plans make them difficult to read

If I'm gonna build it (probably gonna happen

) I will try and document it as good as I can including drawings etc. so feel free to use that for your jet version, would be cool if I could inspire others to build.

I on the other hand probably end up with a V6 or 8 with a straight shaft

Posted: **Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:29 pm**

Thank you very much Will, almost sure you're right , I think I misread 26 and should be 28 assuming you're talking about the center line to sheer measurement.
enlarging and printing those plans make them difficult to read

Yep. 28 would make more sense. That was what I was talking about. I'm on vacation until next week, but will start looking over these plans at that time.

Thanks

Will

Posted: **Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:25 pm**

Btw Jacques, if I advertise this little boat for sale how should I call her? a modern 1930's gentleman's racer? or what?

Posted: **Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:37 am**

peter-curacao wrote:Btw Jacques, if I advertise this little boat for sale how should I call her? a modern 1930's gentleman's racer? or what?

Yes, that is a good name.

Posted: **Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:45 pm**

What would be a fair reserve price on ebay for a boat like this?

Posted: **Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:52 pm**

peter-curacao wrote:What would be a fair reserve price on ebay for a boat like this?

Anyone?

Posted: **Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:18 pm**

I've got no idea. I know how much I'd pay for it though, probably less than you

Posted: **Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:33 pm**

Cracker Larry wrote:I've got no idea. I know how much I'd pay for it though, probably less than you

LOL Funny your the second one I talked to who doesn't like that boat, I guess that confirms the there's No Accounting For Taste phrase

Posted: **Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:26 pm**

Whatever floats your boat

It does nothing for me personally. I wouldn't have any use at all for that boat, but I'm sure somebody would. It's a pretty toy. I want my boats to work. That's why they make all kinds of boats and all kinds of people

Posted: **Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:55 pm**

Cracker Larry wrote:Whatever floats your boat It does nothing for me personally. I wouldn't have any use at all for that boat, but I'm sure somebody would. It's a pretty toy. I want my boats to work. That's why they make all kinds of boats and all kinds of people

I like to build it to sell, I was hoping it attracts international (ebay) buyers , honestly I don't think I can use it here either, just a test run that's it, but after visiting lake Ontario I can imagine a boat like this can be a blast in this area?

Posted: **Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:27 pm**

I don't know, never been to Lake Ontario either

I think if you found the right buyer they would pay a lot. $100K at least, or maybe more. I wouldn't even want it as a gift myself, I'd sell it on Ebay and buy a fishing boat.

Just because it doesn't fit my personality and needs doesn't mean that it won't fit somebody else's. Go with your gut.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:00 am**

A proper fishing boat around here is like gold. Of course you will get offers of 1989 pick up trucks that don't run, a variety of 4 wheelers and dirt bikes in questionable condition, playstations and the occasional "you take payments". Oh, and the guy with the $1000 40hp motor that has new jets giving it a few more HP will want $5000 trade or $4500 cash for it, when you can go buy one for less than that new...

Nice boat, I am glad the plans lay things out much better than old school plans. I think that boat would be even better with some rod holders, some beer holders, a casting deck and well, a regular deck. Maybe move that motor to be an outboard and put in a bait well and rear casting deck...

Posted: **Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:38 pm**

peter-curacao wrote:What would be a fair reserve price on ebay for a boat like this?

Funny there's one up for auction right now

37K buy it now, I was thinking 30 K so if this guy sells it for 37 k (probably not) I'm on the safe site.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crandall-Super- ... 1844399593

Posted: **Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:49 pm**

I wouldn't build it for labor alone for less than 30K. Plus materials. Lot of materials involved there to do it right.

Posted: **Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:30 pm**

I'm thinking that a boat like that may need even more labor and time and expense to do right under the deck, than the exterior details and metal work.

Posted: **Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:07 pm**

jacquesmm wrote:I suggest an improvement: feed air to the step with a cut in the side. Without that, it will cavitate, too much negative P at the step.

Can you explain that a little more? I think it's more or less the same what the guys who are building tunnels in their hulls try to achieve or not?

Should I put 2 holes (port and star) in the step under need the waterline and feed it air with hoses above the waterline? I tried to illustrate it in the pic at frame 9

Cracker Larry wrote:I wouldn't build it for labor alone for less than 30K. Plus materials. Lot of materials involved there to do it right.

The way I look at it: it's just a big piggy bank, loads of fun to fill, and hopefully I get out as much as I put in filling it

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:10 am**

peter-curacao wrote:
Cracker Larry wrote:Whatever floats your boat It does nothing for me personally. I wouldn't have any use at all for that boat, but I'm sure somebody would. It's a pretty toy. I want my boats to work. That's why they make all kinds of boats and all kinds of people
I like to build it to sell, I was hoping it attracts international (ebay) buyers , honestly I don't think I can use it here either, just a test run that's it, but after visiting lake Ontario I can imagine a boat like this can be a blast in this area?

I used to live by the lake.... It would be a "toy" for anyone up there. You can't really boat but 5 months a year unless you are really into being cold. And the weather is very unpredictable. The lake can get quite rough with 2-3' swells not uncommon. There is a lot of $$ spent on sillier things up there though.

I could see that as a fast "commuter" for island or shore living. Hop in that and scoot down a river to the office. I don't think it would get me over to Savannah but it sure would make Hilton Head a short trip. And if it looks that good... who needs a Porsche?

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:46 am**

Yes, it's a little bit like our RB18 or JA18:
http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=RB18

It's fun as a picnic boat, to go to a waterfront restaurant on the week-end but that's all. Still, it is a pleasure to look at the boat, to build her.

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:05 pm**

Both boats have lots of potential for wow. The RB looks more stable though, but I don't know exactly what the hull looks like below on the Flyer. One of the joys of building your own boat (non-professionally) is making it very close if not exactly like what you envision.

Within reason....

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:34 pm**

Profiles can be seen better in the PDF (in post 1), pages labeled 31 and 32. Looks to be the equivalent of Jaguar race car. Say a 1955 D-Type Le Mans. May not be the most practical, but man o man that would turns some heads ....

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:09 pm**

Thank you Jaysen. I just dl'd the pdf.

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:47 pm**

Not wanna be pushy but I think my question got lost in the comments, so here's a bump

peter-curacao wrote:
jacquesmm wrote:I suggest an improvement: feed air to the step with a cut in the side. Without that, it will cavitate, too much negative P at the step.
Can you explain that a little more? I think it's more or less the same what the guys who are building tunnels in their hulls try to achieve or not? Should I put 2 holes (port and star) in the step under need the waterline and feed it air with hoses above the waterline? I tried to illustrate it in the pic at frame 9

Cracker Larry wrote:I wouldn't build it for labor alone for less than 30K. Plus materials. Lot of materials involved there to do it right.
The way I look at it: it's just a big piggy bank, loads of fun to fill, and hopefully I get out as much as I put in filling it

Posted: **Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:57 am**

So this boat is a step hydro, popular before 3pt hydroplanes and tunnel hulls came about. A bunch of the water speed record boats from the 20s and 30s were built this way. Maybe you can find some videos on Youtube of how they run. With enough power I think it would run up on the step and not need ventilation, as it will skip along and can pull in air from the sides.

Some might think its sacrilege but a modern aluminum automotive 4cyl would perform great. Or even one of the new small 3cyl: http://jalopnik.com/why-fords-tiny-1-li ... 1543662936

There is a following for these types of hulls, and there is a big show in Mt. Dora & Tavares, FL every year where they are shown and sold: http://www.acbs-sunnyland.org/index.php ... 8-22-32-30 . I would think an original or restored historic boat would go for more than a modern reproduction, but it is just about finding the right guy with money who loves what you built.

Posted: **Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:45 am**

Peter, I'll look at the lines tomorrow early.
My new drafter is out of the office today.
(It's my son, he surprised me with taking a drafting course and getting a diploma last year, he is really good with Rhino).

He has the Flyer in his files but did not work much on it: he is finishing the lofting of Atkin's Shoreliner for one of our builders.

Posted: **Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:24 pm**

Matt Gent wrote:Maybe you can find some videos on Youtube of how they run. With enough power I think it would run up on the step and not need ventilation,

Hi Matt thx for that suggestion found a clip of the boat (pic) I posted earlier which also is the same boat as the free flyer plans I belive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FskmJM935Y, this clip really make me rethinking of building this boat.

Quote in the comment section

Engine in the video is a V.P AQ175 3,8L V-6. It only gave about 50% power, and managed 3000rpm. this due to a faulty carb.

Is it me, am I missing something or is this just a crappy unbalanced running boat?

jacquesmm wrote:Peter, I'll look at the lines tomorrow early.

Thanks. Jacques

Posted: **Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:36 pm**

That video makes the boat look bad. It may be a weight distribution problem or something wrong with the bottom.
Also, those small stepped hulls prefer to run in flat water.
peter, do a search on youtube and see this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5zRL12rGbA

Much better but flat water and an enlarged version of that boat.

Posted: **Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:45 pm**

jacquesmm wrote:That video makes the boat look bad. It may be a weight distribution problem or something wrong with the bottom.
Also, those small stepped hulls prefer to run in flat water.
peter, do a search on youtube and see this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5zRL12rGbA

Much better but flat water and an enlarged version of that boat.

Thanks, Yes I found that one too but that one is almost 5 feet longer, it looks like the smaller one (the one I thinking of building) can't handle any chop at all, also at 50 % of it's power I think it behaves very strangely, at one point it's almost "vertical" in the water.

Posted: **Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:11 pm**

OK here's my impression of the Flyer video. First the boat is going to squat real hard while planing off since the transom is so narrow. Second he never gets on it hard enough during the video to get it up and running on the step. He was basically plowing around the whole time. The one time he got on the throttle a bit it was heading away from the camera. It looks like it ran fine to me for a boat of that size in that kind of water. I bet on smooth water it would get up and running great.

Posted: **Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:23 pm**

Check out this beauty: http://youtu.be/IHXLfvMKZq4

Posted: **Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:01 pm**

Jacques for now I'm dreaming between this one and RB 14 plans I bought, started cutting some frame templates for the flyer, till now you explanation for creating the deck curve works great, I'm thinking putting some stringers in there, height from waterline to bottom so I can put a sole in the cockpit , can I do that? also should the stringers be laminated or can it be single ply?

Edit: One other thing if I decide to go for the flyer should/can I start a build thread about it? This because it's not a true bateau.com design

Posted: **Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:13 am**

Do you say that you want to build the Flyer? The inboard?

Posted: **Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:53 am**

If it the Flyer, start a new thread.
I will help, if you need help, with some plates development if needed. The Flyer is all double curvature, you may have to do plywood strip planks for most surfaces except the bottom.

Friendly advice about boat choice: pick the boat about which you can be enthusiast. Don't start the RB14 if there is a risk that everyday, you"ll sit there every evening thinking about the Flyer.
You"ll work better and faster.

About help: I wanted to redesign the Flyer and I may do it but I have very little time.
We are putting the finishing touches on a Pacific Dory, a 2x4 boat.
Same for the Tina from Farley Boat works, almost finished.
We are designing an FS13 W = FS13 Wide and it will probably be a 14 but that one will be a kit, need one more week on that one.
Plus we have some new kits coming out like the AB23.
It's busy here but I can develop the surfaces of the Flyer on the week-end and at night. The problem is that in oder to develop surfaces, I have to loft the hull and my final line may not match yours.
Did you already loft the boat or are you just working from the offsets?

Posted: **Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:42 pm**

Thanks Jacques,

I'm thinking to start to build one of them.
Since I like boat

boats I think I will work with pleasure on both designs.
I'm working from the offsets I did not do any lofting, I was thinking building setup and lining the frames with stringers and then plank the hull as I go, I'm better with the things visual in front of me. (talking about the Flyer now)

Posted: **Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:02 am**

Hello to all.
I incidentally found this thread and had to register.

Jaques, whats the status of Crandall Flyer project?
Will you prepare DXF data to offer, i didnt saw plans for Flyer on site yet.
I am looking at Flyer really long and as i will soon move to house with proper space,
i am definitally ready to start this autumn. Probably even without NC data but i will prefer them.
If there will be DXF for building rig, even better:-)
I want to use 3 valve 2 stroke 1 l vintage engine with marine reverse tranny (together under 100 kg cca 60 hp), double circuit cooling, mahogany or oak marine plywood for frames, black locust or oak for longitudals, ash for battens, oak plywood for bottom, pine marine plywood for sides and deck both covered with veneer. No foam please. Do you think it Is that good plan?
When discussing subject on other forum, i was adviced to go rather with Glen-L, but as CrackerBox is also rather obsolete design and i feel enthusiastic about Flyer, i definitely will go this way. Intended use inland rivers and lakes only.

Have a nice day all,
Jakub

Posted: **Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:48 am**

Jakub, it would be great if you and Jacques can get this project off the ground and flying. This boat oozes raffish romance. And Peter Curacao, one of the master boat builders on this forum who is generous with his knowledge, has done his homework on the Flyer. Good luck!

Posted: **Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:45 am**

It is definitely on my list but nothing will happen before the summer.
I will be able to announce some new projects after May 1st and in June, I will focus much more on design.
The re-design of some of those classic plans is high on my list.

Posted: **Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:27 pm**

Jacques,

I'm "lofting" as we speak, I have a little trouble with station 9, in the offset table I have a messurement of 10" from baseline to chine, but I cant determine the messurement from centerline to chine.

Please advice

Thx

Peter

Posted: **Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:48 pm**

Give me some time, I put that design away last year, I have to find it.

Those old tables of offsets can be difficult to read.

Posted: **Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:53 pm**

OK, looked at it.
It's not there.
http://boatplans-online.com/plans/BPO_flyer.pdf

That happens with those old plans, you have to interpolate; draw the whole chine line in plan view and interpolate.
My son did the lofting of that Flyer last year but I don;t know where he put the file or if he kept it. It was drafting exercise.

Posted: **Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:57 pm**

STOP!
I looked again, it is a step. It is a step hull and the step is at 8. 9 is stations superimposed on station 8 to start the step.
Look at the stations view.

Look at the plan view too: you"ll see that sta 8 and 9 are at the location.

I"ll help you more but I am in the middle of a long and tedious weight editing job for a new design.

Posted: **Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:33 pm**

I think I got it, I outlined frame 9 in white and is on top of frame 8, only thing is using the center line to inner chine measurement of 21" gives me a difference of 1 cm between chine and bottom. (See picture below)

Posted: **Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:13 am**

That looks right, it will create the step you see in profile.

Posted: **Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:03 pm**

Thank you Jacques,

Do you think 9mm ply frames with a width of 80 mm as shown below below will do?
Also you told me the side frames are straight, so I did cut them straight but now I'm in doubt reading the yellow section in part of the plans (also see pic below)

Posted: **Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:40 pm**

Hi Peter,

Do you live in Curacao? We happen to be passing through on our sailboat and are anchored in Spaanse Waters!

Best
Evan Gatehouse

Posted: **Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:51 pm**

Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Hi Peter,

Do you live in Curacao? We happen to be passing through on our sailboat and are anchored in Spaanse Waters!

Best
Evan Gatehouse

Yes I do are you here at the moment?

Posted: **Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:58 pm**

It looks like there is camber in the sides, you should follow the plans. I remember that I started to loft it to adapt to our material and probably obtained a slightly different shape.

9 mm frames 80 mm wide would be correct if you use the kind of planking I use. I have to see the stringers and the rest of the construction to give an opinion. Build her like a monocoque structure and she will be light and strong.

Posted: **Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:40 pm**

jacquesmm wrote:It looks like there is camber in the sides, you should follow the plans. I remember that I started to loft it to adapt to our material and probably obtained a slightly different shape.

But I don't understand or can't find the chamber of the side frames, would it look good without chamber in the sides? Reason I ask is, I can get some full sheets of Panamanian mahogany which I think looks great on the sides (will glass those up to the waterline, above waterline epoxy coat covered with clear coat, inside glassed completely with biax?)

jacquesmm wrote:9 mm frames 80 mm wide would be correct if you use the kind of planking I use.

Yes the planking you sugest here

jacquesmm wrote:Bottom 6 mm core, sides 6, plywood framing 10 mm, deck 4 or plank. All that plus glass in and out.

jacquesmm wrote:I have to see the stringers and the rest of the construction to give an opinion. Build her like a monocoque structure and she will be light and strong.

Yes I was planning a monocoque structure, for stringers I was thinking 3 stringers 1 in the keel and the other two in center of keel and chine. Stinger height same as frames 80 mm

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:32 am**

Peter,

Yes we are here in Curaçao now. I sent you an email on the email you have associated with your account here. If you don't get it, email me at ceilydh at yahoo dot com.
Evan

Ps my phone number here is 683 7523

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:28 pm**

Peter, invite Evan and family for dinner and I am certain he will give you some advice about lofting the lines of the Flyer and more.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:12 pm**

jacquesmm wrote:Peter, invite Evan and family for dinner and I am certain he will give you some advice about lofting the lines of the Flyer and more.

He's not here at the moment, could you be so kind and help me out with my earlier questions above at the top of this page ?

Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Peter, Yes we are here in Curaçao now. I sent you an email on the email you have associated with your account here.

Got it!, I will contact you when you are back on the rock

Posted: **Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:57 am**

Hi Peter,

I'm back on Curacao. Let me know if I could come by and give advice on your project.

Evan

Posted: **Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:05 am**

Peter, did you solve the question about the camber?
I ma very busy right now but will try to find time to look at the plans.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:59 am**

Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Hi Peter,

I'm back on Curacao. Let me know if I could come by and give advice on your project.

Evan

Where more or less did you anchor on Spanish water?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:06 am**

jacquesmm wrote:Peter, did you solve the question about the camber?
I ma very busy right now but will try to find time to look at the plans.

No I'm also very busy at work at the moment but maybe I continue this weekend setting up frames,I'm hanging to no side chamber because of reason in quote, but before I do it would be nice if you give your opinion about this

peter-curacao Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:40 pm wrote:Would it look good without chamber in the sides? Reason I ask is, I can get some full sheets of Panamanian mahogany which I think looks great on the sides (will glass those up to the waterline, above waterline epoxy coat covered with clear coat, inside glassed completely with biax?)

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:12 am**

It would look better with camber. You can always draw the camber your self, it is done the same way than on your CS25.

Sorry but I don't have the time to look at the Flyer plans now. I work 7 days a week, full time on a design that has to be ready within a week.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:13 pm**

Peter,

I've shown our location on the chart:

[img]http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pid=61958[/img]

If you come by, look for a catamaran with blue/green stripes on the hull, flying a small Canadian flag at the stern. Boat name is CEILYDH

Cheers,
Evan

Posted: **Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:12 pm**

Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Peter,

I've shown our location on the chart:

If you come by, look for a catamaran with blue/green stripes on the hull, flying a small Canadian flag at the stern. Boat name is CEILYDH

Cheers,
Evan

Hi Evan,
Finally found some time to come by, found Kay Lee, unfortunately nobody was home, you probably were making preparations and stocking up for the tropical storm this Thursday.

I read in your blog that the ride to the dinghy dock is a bit far, don't know where you dock your dinghy but maybe the dock where I'm at is a better alternative? It has 2 bars and two restaurants, one of them "The Pier" serves pretty good food, also it's right at the roundabout with a bus stop, bus goes in one straight line to the wine factory.

Posted: **Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:40 pm**

jacquesmm wrote:That engine is the famous Universal Four block and delivered from 25 to 60 HP depending on the versions.
Search for Atomic Four.

But you are going to put that 500HP turbo charged V8 in there, correct?

Found a nice one at a good price I think, unfortunatly it's only 30 HP, I don't think that's enough is it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3WYKWtmNqg

Posted: **Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:02 am**

On top of the engine question, for the frames I can get 8 and 12 mm ply, 9 mm isn't available should I use 8mm or 12mm?

Posted: **Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm**

8 is close enough to 9 that you can safely use it.

Posted: **Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:19 pm**

Evan_Gatehouse wrote:8 is close enough to 9 that you can safely use it.

Hi Evan Thx for you response, just came back from the marineshop, 8 but also 9 mm seems very thin to me, not that I question yours or Jacques knowledge but are you sure this can be used for the frames of a high speed boat? I probably looking to much at my previous build, but I rather ask twice than loose myself once.

Posted: **Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:20 pm**

double post

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:34 am**

peter-curacao wrote:I can get some full sheets of Panamanian mahogany which I think looks great on the sides (will glass those up to the waterline, above waterline epoxy coat covered with clear coat, inside glassed completely with biax?)

Hope you can use this approach Peter, it will look great.

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:43 pm**

Peter

It's the depth of the frame that really affects strength and stiffness.

Strength is proportional to the depth CUBED. So a 6" deep x 8mm frame is 50% stronger than a 5" x 9mm frame. Adding 1/2" to the frame depth would more than make up the difference in thickness between 9 and 8.

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:53 pm**

Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Peter

It's the depth of the frame that really affects strength and stiffness.

Strength is proportional to the depth CUBED. So a 6" deep x 8mm frame is 50% stronger than a 5" x 9mm frame. Adding 1/2" to the frame depth would more than make up the difference in thickness between 9 and 8.

But I draw the frames at 80 mm (little over 3 ") deep as discussed here http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php ... 60#p381357 and here http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php ... 60#p381361
Edit: on the other hand it has a lot of frames mainly every 12 "

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:32 pm**

Is that the question you want me to answer Peter?
I 100% agree with Evan, it's the depth that matters.

Sorry for the delayed reply: I was out of town, on a boat with no internet access.

Posted: **Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:51 pm**

jacquesmm wrote:Is that the question you want me to answer Peter?
I 100% agree with Evan, it's the depth that matters.

Sorry for the delayed reply: I was out of town, on a boat with no internet access.

yes will 80 mm enough? and can motor I've shown be used or do I need more HP?

Posted: **Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:30 am**

And now the hurricane . . . yes, 80 mm is fine.

Did you get that engine?

Posted: **Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:43 am**

jacquesmm wrote:And now the hurricane . . . yes, 80 mm is fine.

Did you get that engine?

No it wasn't enough HP

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:47 pm**

peter-curacao wrote:
jacquesmm wrote:And now the hurricane . . . yes, 80 mm is fine.

Did you get that engine?
No it wasn't enough HP

I liked the idea of using a rotex engine from salvaged PWC, but since I use a straight shaft prop and not the jet what kind of gearbox should I put behind that to achieve a reverse ?

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:28 pm**

Find out what the designer specified and it will give you the rpm at the shaft. Work from there BUT those Rotax turn at high rpm and I don't think you will find a gear box to reduce it enough.

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:28 pm**

jacquesmm wrote:Find out what the designer specified and it will give you the rpm at the shaft. Work from there BUT those Rotax turn at high rpm and I don't think you will find a gear box to reduce it enough.

So it's not that easy? motor is gonna give me a headache I think, was nesting the frames today, did the best I could, still I used way more wood as I thought I would

just enough or just not enough material left for the straight stringers, we will see.
Since it's possible that this is becoming a build thread, and that it is not a Bateau build, maybe the webmaster can move it to the appropriate topic forum, or not?

Posted: **Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:42 pm**

Feel free to start a building thread. I may design a kit for that boat next year.

Posted: **Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:14 am**

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx

How do you delete this?

Posted: **Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:25 pm**

jacquesmm wrote:Feel free to start a building thread. I may design a kit for that boat next year.

I believe it would sell for you. I think these old designs are awesome!

I found this on you tube.

https://youtu.be/yM7IaCC7EB4

Posted: **Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:35 am**

Jacques what are you thinking for the stringers? I was thinking also single 8 mm or maybe 2x 6mm laminated? and how many stringers ? 2 , 3 or 4?

Posted: **Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:09 pm**

will you be using the plywood as the final frames or ar router templates? it looks like butt joints in the assembled ones??

also is it a screw and glue build or will you be building it to the specifications in the old plans?

and why not just build it with a straight drive and a cheap I4 engine ... something automotive? .. otherwise you could look into an IN/OUT/Reverse dog box from an old casale v drive... they are small and relatively inexpensive.. just dog engagement like a crash box.. but i dont think anything else will fit

Posted: **Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:38 pm**

deuce_454 wrote:will you be using the plywood as the final frames or ar router templates? it looks like butt joints in the assembled ones??

also is it a screw and glue build or will you be building it to the specifications in the old plans?

and why not just build it with a straight drive and a cheap I4 engine ... something automotive? .. otherwise you could look into an IN/OUT/Reverse dog box from an old casale v drive... they are small and relatively inexpensive.. just dog engagement like a crash box.. but i dont think anything else will fit

ply are the frames, it's gonna be glue only, straight shaft is the plan, see other thread.

Posted: **Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:40 pm**

peter-curacao wrote:Jacques what are you thinking for the stringers? I was thinking also single 8 mm or maybe 2x 6mm laminated? and how many stringers ? 2 , 3 or 4?

Bump (because I will be at this point in a couple of days)

Posted: **Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:53 pm**

Did the designer specify engine rpm and prop size at WOT? Or did he just design the hull, and leave it the builder to experiment with engine and prop size etc, while at the same time trying to stay alive?

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:45 am**

peter-curacao wrote:
deuce_454 wrote:will you be using the plywood as the final frames or ar router templates? it looks like butt joints in the assembled ones??

also is it a screw and glue build or will you be building it to the specifications in the old plans?

and why not just build it with a straight drive and a cheap I4 engine ... something automotive? .. otherwise you could look into an IN/OUT/Reverse dog box from an old casale v drive... they are small and relatively inexpensive.. just dog engagement like a crash box.. but i dont think anything else will fit
ply are the frames, it's gonna be glue only, straight shaft is the plan, see other thread.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Casale-Engineer ... PJ&vxp=mtr

if you look at the casale v drive in this auction you can see the little "in out" box.. they also come with a reverse, and its the smallest/lightest transmission for a small straight shaft out there.. a velvet drive is big and heavy... but conected to a small v6 it would be pretty cool too

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:15 am**

peter-curacao wrote:
peter-curacao wrote:Jacques what are you thinking for the stringers? I was thinking also single 8 mm or maybe 2x 6mm laminated? and how many stringers ? 2 , 3 or 4?
Bump (because I will be at this point in a couple of days)

Stringers Afterplane

Jacques,

What do you think of stringer placement in the picture? (orange string line) stringers 8mm thick and 80mm high (same as frames), inside stringers will be cut with a transom knee support. At the bow I was thinking same dimensions, but one center stringer and one on each site (total of 3)

Posted: **Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:36 am**

Bump

Jacques I'm almost on the point of glueing in the bottom panels, can you please explain your suggestion in earlier post under a little further?
And if it is as I drawn in the pic what location and how big should the holes be

peter-curacao wrote:
jacquesmm wrote:I suggest an improvement: feed air to the step with a cut in the side. Without that, it will cavitate, too much negative P at the step.
Can you explain that a little more? I think it's more or less the same what the guys who are building tunnels in their hulls try to achieve or not? Should I put 2 holes (port and star) in the step under need the waterline and feed it air with hoses above the waterline? I tried to illustrate it in the pic at frame 9

Posted: **Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:03 am**

Peter, I think Jacques is on a boat delivery for a couple of weeks and out of touch.

Posted: **Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:47 am**

All, Jacques is on a boat trip but he is doing his best to stop at Marina's each evening with WIFI. Give him a couple of days and he will get back to you. Jeff

Posted: **Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:56 pm**

Cracker Larry wrote:Peter, I think Jacques is on a boat delivery for a couple of weeks and out of touch.

Okay thanks Larry and Jeff, hope to hear from him soon

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:51 pm**

what engine are you settling on?
love the build by the way

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:14 pm**

Thx, didn't make a decision jet , lot's of opinions downstairs in the build thread

Posted: **Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:42 pm**

Peter, if you want to hear what a Harley Davidson engine would sound like in your Flyer, check out
https://youtu.be/4rd2d3PQSiA

Posted: **Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:11 pm**

glossieblack wrote:Peter, if you want to hear what a Harley Davidson engine would sound like in your Flyer, check out
https://youtu.be/4rd2d3PQSiA

LOL that's cool

thanks for posting, it won't get much cooling though next to my feet

Posted: **Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:50 pm**

Too late, the hull is assembled.
What I was thinking of is venting the steps.
Since steps became fashionable again 20 years ago, builders discovered that there was some brutal vacuum just behind the steps and they now vent the steps through the sides:

It's too late for that but yours is a proven boat, narrower, it is not that important.

Posted: **Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 pm**

Can't I vent it as showed in my picture and text below?

peter-curacao wrote:
jacquesmm wrote:I suggest an improvement: feed air to the step with a cut in the side. Without that, it will cavitate, too much negative P at the step.
Can you explain that a little more? I think it's more or less the same what the guys who are building tunnels in their hulls try to achieve or not? Should I put 2 holes (port and star) in the step under need the waterline and feed it air with hoses above the waterline? I tried to illustrate it in the pic at frame 9
[/img]

Posted: **Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:00 pm**

No, on the sides.
The gap from the step if not sufficient to draw enough air in the step that is why mist of those boats have big cuts in the side to feed the vent.
Let me search for pictures.

Posted: **Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:08 pm**

I can't paste those protected URL's but here are some links:

http://www.sportfishingmag.com/gallery/ ... r-consoles

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attach ... ty-152.jpg

http://www.boattest.com/images-gallery/ ... llstep.jpg

http://www.thehulltruth.com/attachment. ... 1259888915

The last one is c;ear. It is not extremely important but will improve performance. The idea is to feed air to the steps from the side.

Posted: **Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:12 pm**

Read this:
http://www.navaldesign.co.za/articles/S ... 0Feb07.pdf

It explains the theory.

Posted: **Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:58 pm**

jacquesmm wrote:Read this:
http://www.navaldesign.co.za/articles/S ... 0Feb07.pdf

It explains the theory.

Thanks that indeed explained a lot to me, at the end of 2nd page beginning of 3rd it says

To avoid this problem air is often sucked through openings well above the waterline,or it may be supplied through tubes in from deck level.

Isn't the underlined bold section not somehow what I had envisioned?

Posted: **Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:18 pm**

Yes, we mentioned that but no boat manufacturers uses that method, it is complicated. A vertical tube will be a siphon, instead we need a scoop that pushes the air in. It is much easier to have those cuts in the sides.
Now, to stay with the style of the boat, I would leave it as is as make the cuts very discreet.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:41 pm**

plans say

The bottom should be finished with at least 3 coats of special hard racing bottom finish

can that be graphite?

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:48 pm**

If it'll stand up to rocks and oyster shell, why not?

Newt

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:14 pm**

Newt wrote:If it'll stand up to rocks and oyster shell, why not?

Newt

Yes I know it's an abrasion resistor, but on the west website it also says it's a low friction coating that's why I was wondering if the graphite could be an alternate for the special hard racing bottom finish

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:25 pm**

one option for bottom paint
I really doubt it will do much for you more than smooth sanded graphite would - looks like it is for boats that will spend time in water

http://hullspeed.us/index.php/products# ... d=39293758

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:08 pm**

tcason wrote:one option for bottom paint
I really doubt it will do much for you more than smooth sanded graphite would - looks like it is for boats that will spend time in water

http://hullspeed.us/index.php/products# ... d=39293758

I don't think that's a paint, also US$469,- for a coating life of 1-3 mo

I don't have Trump money to spent

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:14 am**

Peter take a look at Interlux VC 17 bottom paint , made for racing sail boats and fast power boats . I think KS8
used this on his sailboat . But has no anti fouling properties .

Posted: **Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:24 am**

That superglide stuff is $469 for 2500 ft2 I imagine that stuff plus neverwet would make for some interesting hydrodynamics.

Posted: **Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:15 am**

peter-curacao wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:17 pm Found some pics of her, beautiful boat imo, when you look in the engine compartment it looks like the side panels does have a camber or is that an optical illusion? Also looks like a V8 is possible

Posted: **Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:26 am**

peter-curacao wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:17 pm Found some pics of her, beautiful boat imo, when you look in the engine compartment it looks like the side panels does have a camber or is that an optical illusion? Also looks like a V8 is possible

Photobucket blows.

Posted: **Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:07 am**

Jaysen wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:26 am
peter-curacao wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:17 pm Found some pics of her, beautiful boat imo, when you look in the engine compartment it looks like the side panels does have a camber or is that an optical illusion? Also looks like a V8 is possible

Photobucket blows.

LOL instead of editing I quoted for some reason

tried to remove pictures here so I could see them again in my photobucket map, no luck..

well there you go Photobucket

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