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Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:04 am
by Jaysen
It's official. The Boss has ordered me to start building 'Lil Bit'. Her official decree was "You shall take me to the sand bars, both the ocean side and the one up town. You shall catch me fish and crabs and then you shall prepare them for my enjoyment. You shall buy the CNC kit to reduce swearing, blood letting, and the need to 'buy more wood' because ... you. It shall be the yellow you call 'fighting lady'. It shall have protection from oysters and it shall have an extra cladding of cloth to ensure it outlasts you. It shall be powered by the breath of God or your back, I do not want a motor to disrupt my peace and quiet."

Or she might have said "SHUT UP AND BUILD THE DANG THING ALREADY!"

Lil Bit will be a V12 configured for sail/row. Yellow hull with white-ish interior. Glass on hull exterior and graphite bottom. I will build from the "kit options". Primary use will be fishing and crab trapping here in the Broad River with pleasure trips for the Mrs. The name is signifiant as Mrs and I have been on a few larger sail boats (35+) and are likely to wind up in a situation where Lil Bit hangs our with her big sister "Whole Lotta". I'll be adding some bow reinforcement and lowering the bow ring to make it easy to make Lil Bit a tender in the future.

High level plan
1 July 18-25 -- Prep build outside build area including floor and roof (plywood and removable tarp)
2 Aug 1-12 -- Acquire primary materials (Bateau kits), shop materials/tools, and other misc materials (mast, sprit, rigging)
3 Aug 13-Sept 3 -- BUILD BUILD BUILD. I expect to have limited time thanks to the heat. But, since I work from home, a few hours every day is my goal. I'll also be keeping the resin/catalyst in the house, plus I'm going to request the slow cat to increase my work time.
4 Sept 4-9 -- Finishing. I hate finishing. She's a working boat. Fish don't care if she's ugly. Only the parts the boss will see need to look decent :)
5 Sept 10 -- Get her wet.

That's stupid levels of aggressive scheduling. Should be doable though. No kids. No commute. Wife wants it built. And I'm hoping that using all kits and being able to put 3-4hr/day into it will make it possible. If not... I'll just get her done a little later.

Once I'm done with my day I'll post some photos of the "shop" area and start the prep. The tarp hooks are already up so that should go pretty fast.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:05 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, a little aggressive but all planning should be!! By all means, feed us photos as often as possible to show the build!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:11 pm
by terrulian
Since I'd estimate that 80% of the time my build could have been avoided by lowering the obsessive aesthetic standards that got out of control :help: I'd say you can do it. With the kit, you can have it looking like a boat in one day--if you can get the bow to come together.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:04 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote:a little aggressive but all planning should be!
Well, there are some ulterior motives... If I take much longer than that to get her in the water, there will be a noticeable lack of fish and shrimp in the freezer. Not to mention a few more lump on my cranium for missing the "sand bar season".
terrulian wrote:Since I'd estimate that 80% of the time my build could have been avoided by lowering the obsessive aesthetic standards that got out of control :help: I'd say you can do it. With the kit, you can have it looking like a boat in one day--if you can get the bow to come together.
Yeah. You scared me with that finish. I'm prepared to use exterior house paint just to get it in the water. Not really, but since I'm working outside I do have to realize that protection is all I'm really going for. Sand, bugs, the neighbors cat... all likely to be permanently affixed to the hull, so there's not much point in a mirror finish. That and after spending way too much time working bright work for a Shannon 38, it's all getting painted on Lil Bit.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:26 am
by glossieblack
The boss has ordered me to start building 'Lil Bit'. Her official decree was "You shall take me to the sand bars, both the ocean side and the one up town. You shall catch me fish and crabs and then you shall prepare them for my enjoyment. You shall buy the CNC kit to reduce swearing, blood letting, and the need to 'buy more wood' because ... you. It shall be the yellow you call 'fighting lady'. It shall have protection from oysters and it shall have an extra cladding of cloth to ensure it outlasts you. It shall be powered by the breath of God or your back, I do not want a motor to disrupt my peace and quiet.
Well a man has to do what a man has to do Jaysen! Well written. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:43 am
by Jaysen
Day one and the schedule has been disrupted.

This is the "shop" space. Floor will be 3/4" PT set on the sand. I will take the time to level the work surface, but the floor is just there for my comfort and to reduce sand pick up. The roof will be your basic tarp, 16x20. It will be attacked to the hooks in the wall and fence with simple cord. Nothing fancy.

looking east
Image

looking west
Image

shed side hooks
Image


fence side hooks
Image

The area is protected on all sides from direct wind. I have 220v40a power available at the box end of the building. Biggest issues will be stray bugs, cats, and the heat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:23 am
by topwater
Don't worry bugs and other debris will sand right off . Hell if you find a cat glued to it just use a heavier
grit sand paper...should come right off :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:20 am
by Fred in Wisc
Stuck cats usually require a grinder. And eye/ ear protection. They really don't enjoy the process.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:33 am
by topwater
:lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:19 pm
by Jaysen
I've been spending money!

Tarp and wood floor for workspace.

From Bateau we have
• V12_CNC
• V12_SL with 2gal foam
• V12_E
Asked to add
• 5yds 6oz biax
• bag graphite
• 1qt sys3 primer

From Amazon
• cheapish oars
• oarlocks
• gudgeons and pintles
• cart for moving

Left to purchase
• mast/spar/tiller wood
• misc rigging
• misc hardware
• mixing and measuring supplies
• disposable tools
• top coat close to fighting lady yellow

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:24 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, just saw your order come through!! I will mail or call you in the morning regarding the additional items you requested!! I will also let you know when we will cut (CNC) your kit!! Probably Thursday morning but I will confirm in the morning as well!! Great kit, you will love it and yes, we will follow your build from start to completion!! Thank you for your business!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:41 pm
by Jaysen
The biggest problem will be shipping. I'm in east jesus nowhere SC. Makes for great access to the water but not the happiest drivers. Although a thought ... Should I spring for the topcoat now and get it all in one shipment?

The Mrs is almost as excited for the build as I am. She has her chair all ready, her tea brewed, and her hat brushed. I will have excellent oversight. I've been instructed that NO blood other than my own can be spilt on the finish until AFTER I've sailed her to the sand bar.

So much for my fishing boat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:57 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, no worries on shipping, Jamie is an expert with the shipping companies!! We can discuss tomorrow!! No need to order everything in one shipment!!! Thank you again and you guys have a nice evening!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:34 pm
by Jaysen
Temp shop is set up. I'll post pics later.

I do have a question: what is the best barrier between a floor surface and the long sections being butt joined?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:53 pm
by Cracker Larry
Any kind of cheap plastic sheeting. I usually just buy plastic painters drop cloths and cut off what I need. Not that a V12 really has a "long" surface anyway :lol: But plastic under the joints. Glad Wrap will work.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:49 pm
by Jaysen
Perfect. I realized I was "out" of 4mil of any size. Should have enough to get all 4 of the panels glued up in one sitting. Might take 19 batches of glue in this heat, but I'll only need the deck for a day.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:57 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, I will give you a call tomorrow regarding the cnc cut of your V12 as well as shipping information!! Have a nice evening!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:33 pm
by Jaysen
UPS guy brought me some presents!

Anyone have a recommendation on best plan to get resin and hardener out of bottles? I realized I forgot about that in my planning.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:46 pm
by jacquesmm
I pour it in cups, very simple/ Some like pumps but I find it cleaner and faster to pour.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:06 pm
by Jaysen
I was thinking about that. Clean solo cups. Two funnels. A scale. Store funnels in large ziplock bags and clearly label resin and hardener. Use disposable plastic bowls for mixing.

Seem right?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:14 pm
by Fuzz
As Jm said just use cups. I have been just buying small ones in a Costco 100-250 pack. If I need to mix a batch smaller than 2 cups to one cup I just put the resin in one and eyeball the hardener in the other. I find your eye is a pretty dang good judge. So far I have never had a bad batch doing it this way. And yes I know that is not the best way of doing it and some folks would not approve :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:53 am
by Cracker Larry
I was thinking about that. Clean solo cups. Two funnels. A scale. Store funnels in large ziplock bags and clearly label resin and hardener. Use disposable plastic bowls for mixing.

Seem right?
You don't need to weigh it, or use those messy pumps. I mix by volume in graduated mixing cups from Lowes. I get the 1 quart cups, they are only about $1 each. I label one with "H" marks with a blue marker and another with "R" with a red marker, and use them both until they get funky, which takes a long while. After I measure both, I pour them into cheap plastic keg cups. If the job is big I'll measure out the needed epoxy ahead of time, put the resin in red cups, hardener in blue, and have them ready to mix as needed. Measuring cups is all I use, 8 ounces resin, 4 ounces hardener, works every time :D 10% either way doesn't seem to matter. I keep my resin cup on the right, hardener on the left, always. Red is for resin, right is for resin. Hard to mess it up, but sometimes I still do :lol: It could be the rum :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:09 am
by Jaysen
I like that. That will be my plan. Will also make it easier to keep premeasured cups chilled in the fridge.

Added to the shopping list.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:16 am
by Jaysen
Jeff, can you give me a call? we have a problem with scheduling that might impact delivery...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:24 am
by cape man
It could be the rum :doh:
Red, right, and rum...It's all for resin!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:28 am
by cape man
I use clear plastic cups and draw lines on them with a marker using a measuring cup and water. Fill to the first line with hardner and then to the second with resin. With this heat have been mixing very small batches. 2oz hardner: 4oz resin. Takes about 5 minutes to make 4 or 5 of them which is more than enough for a day's work.

A lot cleaner than pumps and faster.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:50 am
by Jaysen
Jaysen wrote:Jeff, can you give me a call? we have a problem with scheduling that might impact delivery...
Crisis averted... Truck will be here tomorrow.

Just had to explain, "no dear, it won't be in the water before we leave Thursday night". I'm not sure if she is making fun of me, having fun with me, or ... let's just leave it with those two options.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:22 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, drop me a note when it is delivered!! Also, please advise when you receive your Sail as their shop with ship directly to you. Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:15 pm
by Jaysen
Let the fun begin!

Image

Hard to believe there is a 12' boat in there. I'll unwrap it tonight and maybe get the long panels started.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:52 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, glad your V12 arrived safe and sound!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:00 pm
by Jaysen
There was a little damage to the end wrappers, but they wood was al clean. I haven't unboxed it yet (silly job getting in the way), but I'm certain it will be good.

The truck on the other hand... Showed up with a flat. Then the lift was stick for a minute. Then the local fire department wanted to get by. And by the time we were done all 4 of the locals were looking at us wondering how we managed to clog up the only road toward the mainland.

Good thing they all, including the firemen, want to see how Lil Bit comes along. Nice thing about living in a small community.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:26 pm
by Jeff
Wow Jaysen, tough delivery!! And yes, glad you live in a pleasant community!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:46 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff/Jacques,

How much am I allowed to show of the cut sheets in the forum?
Also, the CNC notes refer to "included drawings" for the modified CNC nesting. I had no sheet of drawings. I'm pretty sure I can figure it out but a PDF of that drawing would make me smile :)
Next, I didn't see cut butt block even though they are mentioned in the CNC sheet. I did notice that all joints are puzzle which I thought eliminated the need for butt blocks. The only thing I see that looks like butt block look more like the dagger box as the notes say that butts are 6" in the CNC to improve hull shape.
Lastly... did you mean to include an uncut 1/4" sheet? Not complaining as I think it would be rub rails, mast step, etc. Just making sure I don't owe you for that.

That said, when I unboxed and moved the uncut sheet, I looked at the wife and said, "That right there... that was worth the cash. If I can't build this boat all straight and pretty, just sell my tools and ship me of to a home now." To which she replied, "That's my plan anyway." I don't think I won in that exchange.

I did check all sides. No shipping damage.

I won't get ANY progress till Monday. We leave for Ft Benning tomorrow afternoon to watch the male child get his airborne wings. After that I expect to start glueing, stitching, coating and sanding until I have a boat that floats.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:17 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, Let me start by saying that I guaduated Jump School in 1981 at the very school your son is attending!! As I look back, I love the memories!!! Not sure I loved the actual three weeks of training but really glad I served!! Ok, on to your V12, the extra sheet is a packing sheet. We use them to protect the good marine plywood you purchased for the build!! I am going to leave the other questions for Jacques!! Please tell your son congrats from an old paratrooper (I still have my original jump wings)!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:20 pm
by jacquesmm
Let's take it one item at a time.
I don't understand all the questions but it looks like you did not see the kit building notes that were in the package.
Reply and we will send you a copy. It is very simple: the V12 is assembled exactly as described in the standard V12 building notes except for the butt blocks. The hull panels are assembled with puzzle joints. No need for butt blocks.
Therefore, we do not cut butt blocks.
Some builders like to add the butt blocks on that bot because they are just under the mid frame and act as reinforcements. If that is what you want, see the building notes.

I don't know where you read included drawings but I will check. The nesting is exactly the same than on the plans.
BTW, do you have the plans?
The plans are sold separately.

Congratulations on the Fort Benning graduation, that is something to be proud of.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:41 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks Jeff and Jacques. We are very proud of him. He has planned to be a "career enlisted man" since he was 8. He sees it as a way to respect the sacrifices of others and as a way to protect the country. It's odd to see him go from "lump on the couch" to "full grown man" but ... When we visited him for basic graduation in Jackson we saw no more lump. He was even more grown by the time we visited him in AZ mid AIT. Now he's done with training and is off to follow the path he's laid out. We are very excited for his future. Clearly we are proud of him as well.

Jacques, I've been drooling over the plans for quite some time. It was the complex curves of the mid seat that got me to the point of "CNC is the right move for me". I want it to be "right". Can't really screw it up now can I?!

The instructions with the kit (one page) are where I saw the reference to "included drawing". First bullet point.

I will omit the but blocks since we have puzzle joints. Bullet three (kit notes) refers to them bing 6" over the 8" in the plans.

Is it ok for me to post pictures of the CNC kit as shipped? It's a thing to be admired. Not sure it will be when I'm done with it :)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:48 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, you have every right to be proud, we all should be proud when a young man decides to truly "SERVE" his country!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:25 am
by Cracker Larry
Congrats to your son Jaysen, and to you and his Mom too 8) Tell him thank you, from me !

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:41 pm
by Jaysen
As predicted ZERO boat work done this weekend. On the other hand...

Post acquisition of airborne wings, we watched the Charlie Company get dismissed.
Image

That was followed by a happy mom and proud dad moment.
Image

A bit of travel to visit folks this weekend and I suckered him into "wood holding" duty.
Image
Image

Bottom, sides and transom freed. One boss lady did not stop for the forgotten mixing bowls and stir sticks. Which is fine I wasn't planing on real glue work till tomorrow anyway. Since I only have 5 weights (buckets to fill with sand) I can't do much more than glue those together tomorrow when the forgotten supplies arrive.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:47 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, congratulations on your son's graduation from Airborme (Jump) School!!! Nice photos of the family with the. 300 foot towers in the background!!! Ok, let's get started on that V12!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:46 am
by Jaysen
Quick process check on the puzzle joints:
1. straight epoxy on the mating surfaces
2. "peanut butter" glue on the mating surfaces
3. assemble
4. thin coat peanut butter over mated joint, both sides
5. even pressure over full joint
6. let set overnight

I left off all the plastic stuff. just wanting to verify that I have the epoxy/glue application set up properly in my brain.

Thanks.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:54 am
by pee wee
That sounds pretty good, but you may not be able to flip the two assembled panels for that #4 "thin coat peanut butter over mated joint, both sides", you may have to wait until it is set for that one.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:57 am
by Jaysen
That was my thought. I'm thinking that I'll make that the "outside". then it will get covered with 12oz glass to compensate for any issues with mechanical over chemical bond in the adhesive.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:31 pm
by Jaysen
Well... I'll not be inviting CL over to inspect tonight's handiwork.

Pretty sure I make my glue too thin. My mixing bowls are too small and I don't think I added enough wood flour. By the time I put the top plastic on the joints looked "drained" of glue. I suspect when I pick up the boards tomorrow I will have puddles of glue.

I have pics uploaded but won't get to add them to the thread until tomorrow.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:45 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, just take your time, you will get the mix right, just takes a little time and practice!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:02 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote:Jaysen, just take your time, you will get the mix right, just takes a little time and practice!! Jeff
And bigger bowls. Should be able to get it right tomorrow. I figure I can use it like a putty to fill gaps if I need too.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:57 am
by Jaysen
Pics from last night

Making sure it all fit.
Image

"sealing" the wood
Image

Weighted on the joint
Image

Sitting at "home port" with a beer and a sunset. That's Paris Island.
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:06 am
by Jaysen
Well... it's what I expected.

Looks like a bit too much epoxy AND did not smooth the plastic well
Image

Not real easy to see here, but not all the joints are "flat" on this side"
Image

There are voids on the time from the too thin glue running through
Image

And the bottom has puddles.
Image

Looks like plenty of sanding in my future.

Not sure on the "best next step". I don't think I should try to disassemble the joint. Fill the voids then sand? Sand then fill? Open to suggestions.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:55 am
by topwater
Sand then fill .

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:03 am
by BB Sig
Jaysen wrote: Sitting at "home port" with a beer and a sunset. That's Paris Island.
Image
I spent some time on that island. Never got to enjoy that view though... :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:25 am
by Jeff
Nice!! Beautiful place to train but never get to truly enjoy!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:27 am
by jacquesmm
Don't worry about the gaps in the puzzle joint.
Go over the puddles with a grinder and leave the gaps for now.
You will them later.
Later, when you build your putty fillets, take a little bit of that putty and go over those gaps.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:53 pm
by Laszlo
Jaysen,

Congrats on starting your adventure. I completed my V12 7 years ago and have been having lots of fun with it. It's a great little boat, very capable. I've rowed it during a small craft advisory with 3-ft. waves and never got any water over the top. Jacques did a great job with the design. It's also very pleasant and easy to sail, even with the boomless rig.

I also hold the record for the longest build time - 9 years. Here's a few tips on how to avoid being a challenger for that record:

1. Build it exactly as the instructions say. Do not modify the design, even a little. All I did was add a cuddy in the bow and that added a chunk of time.
2. Don't try for a yacht finish, it's not worth it. It eats ridiculous amounts of time, it's expensive, it turns into a workboat finish after a season anyway and it makes absolutely no difference to how the boat works. If a workboat finish is good enough for the USS Nimitz, it's good enough for me.
3. Work clean. Spend a little extra time up front preventing spills, drips, rough fillets, etc. and save a lot of time sanding later.
4. Do all your cleanup with a rag before the epoxy cures, instead of after with a sander.
5. If you don't like how something turned out, take it out as soon as possible. Don't try to get used to it and let the epoxy cure while you're trying. And especially don't cover it up. Because you're going to remember it and take all the stuff off and have to replace/repair/rebuild (and sand).
6. Do something everyday, no matter how little. Once you lose your momentum it's very hard to get it back. Lost momentum is the biggest reason for abandoned boat projects. The atypical thing about my build isn't that it stretched out so long, but that after so much time I actually completed the boat.

Anyway, have fun and keep on posting,

Laszlo

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:29 pm
by Jaysen
Leave it for later it is.

Laszio, the plan is 60min/day with 8hr on weekends. Already decided in workboat finish since that is what she is. If I can stick to the paln should be in the water a bit faster than 9years :-) thanks for the tips. I'll keep them handy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:18 pm
by terrulian
I'm still of two minds about the workboat thing. I tried to finish mine off nicely, but in addition to all the disadvantages Lazlo listed, it adds a lot of weight. I didn't go for two part paint, so the expense wasn't tremendous, but I would guess 80-90% of the time was making things look good, not making them solid, which is easy if you follow the plans.
On the other hand, I enjoyed the whole build quite a bit and there is no comparison between how I felt about the work, and the result, on my V10 and the "total junk boat" I described on another string. The little junk boat is perfectly serviceable, but every job was completed with a completely different type of satisfaction--not a job well done, but a job quickly and cheaply done. There's a difference. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to get any admiring stares for my junk boat, not that that is what it's all about. But I will never have the same level of affection for it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:03 am
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote:Leave it for later it is.

Laszio, the plan is 60min/day with 8hr on weekends. Already decided in workboat finish since that is what she is. If I can stick to the paln should be in the water a bit faster than 9years :-) thanks for the tips. I'll keep them handy.
Jaysen it is your boat and you have every right to build it any way you want but you might want to re-think the work boat deal :doh:
I only say this because from what you have said "Lil Bit"is SWMBO's boat and I bet she will be wanting it to be nice :P
I have built work boats both big and smallImage
Image
The work boats could be kindly said to be butt ugly :lol: The only time they looked good was when filled with several tons of fish.
I also built an OD-18 that is not in the Cracker class but is not too badImage
It is sure nice to have people come up to you at the launch and say they like your boats look. I think you would be much more pleased with that in the end.
Fuzz

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:50 am
by WouldWork
The way I look at it is simple - you will make up your own mind on show or work boat finish as you go. The more you use epoxy, the more you sand and the closer you get to the end, the more you will know in your own mind just how far you're willing to go on the finish. Trust me, you will know!

You get an idea of how hard or easy you find it to make stuff look good. Everyone's different though, you'll see. My idea of show boat is probably Larry's idea of workboat. Make it what you want and how you want it! The V12 is an awesome looking hull, Jacques has done the hard work, it's up to you how much you want to compliment that. No one here will think less of you with either finish as long as you're proud of it and happy with it.

Fuzz,

I must have horrible taste because I think you're butt ugle boat is gorgeous!! I'd love one of those.

Take care all.

Cam.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:08 am
by Jaysen
Well... let me clarify.

SWMBO doesn't really care about finish. She's as happy with a 1980 rust bucket as a 2016 fresh off the line vehicle. She has preferences, but for her "get it done and make it safe" are the key. I on the other hand... I'm more like terrulian when it comes to "done nice". Which is BAD for this particular build. Im my mind "work boat" still looks nice, but won't make me cry when I find the inevitable scratches and gouges. So here's what my finish will be.

1. No bright work other than mast/spar (and maybe not them either.
2. glass and graphite bottom
3. prime and sand, but only 2 top coats of something "inexpensive" and close to "fighting lady yellow" on hull
4. interior will be white.
5. Orange peel is ok
6. Runs/drips are not.
7. All lines will be even/symmetrical and fair.
8. No mods to hull structure or fittings (other than mast retention)

I know I'm abusing the idea of "workboat" but when my workboat is done, I'm pretty sure she will still be a looker. Not terulian class looker, but she will stand out. Even with fish parts and crab traps she's going to be unique and sharp.

As to last night's work... Oops... Son and I needed to practice gun control. Man 500rnds go fast when you're having fun. Going to sand over lunch today.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:15 am
by Cracker Larry
As to last night's work... Oops... Son and I needed to practice gun control. Man 500rnds go fast when you're having fun.
Don't they though! My son and I can easy go through 500 in an hour with pistols Get my wife involved and 1,000 goes real quick :help: My M14 can eat 750 a minute. That gets real pricey, real fast 8O

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:41 am
by cape man
So my OD18 has some nice bright work on the gunwales and fore deck, but the paint and finish is cheap and definitely 30 foot. Have never had anyone say that it looks bad. The boat I'm working on now will be the same, if not more "work-boat" finish. Doubt I'll hear anything but compliments on it as well. The way we use them it would be foolish for me to build em too pretty.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:04 pm
by Jaysen
1. I'm an idiot
2. Angle grinder + 40g flap wheel == need to express point 1.
3. Knowing that I get to go over it again with paste makes me feel that point 2 is less of an issue.

Question: do I need the double layer transom? If I get a motor it will be an electric and under 3hp. I'm thinking all I need is the one layer. Thoughts?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:39 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, I don't think you need more than 1 if you are going to use a small electric motor. Let's wait and let Fuzz or Cracker Larry give you a final opinion!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:46 pm
by Cracker Larry
An angle grinder is an implement of destruction. I only use those when tearing a boat apart, not for building one :help: We've all been idiots at least once, sometimes more than once :D I leave the angle grinder on the shelf, right along with the belt sander, when building a boat.

If you don't double the transom, at least put a clamping board 8 or 10" high along the entire top. If it were me, I'd double it and put a clamping board. Never know what the future might bring. I've never been known to under build anything though :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:58 pm
by Jaysen
In my defense I was destroying the glops of epoxy.

My only "concern" is the added weight. It's not much but I've realized that the transport cart may not like the added weight of the glassed bottom. I thought that maybe a decent trade off would be the double transom for the glass on the bottom.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:45 pm
by Jaysen
Well... Looks like it's going to be "fix puzzle joints first". Just had one decide it was not glued properly enough so it let go. Nothing that can't be put back together.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:22 pm
by Cracker Larry
Those glops of epoxy are much easier to clean up when wet. Saves a lot of work and sanding. Try to work clean, don't leave glops to dry and sand off. I'd put a layer of tape over those puzzle joints.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:37 pm
by Jaysen
Tape? Packing tape?

The glops are from the not-thick-as-peanut-butter glue running through the joint. Can see right through a few spots post "idiot".

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:19 pm
by Cracker Larry
Tape? Packing tape?
No, 6" fiberglass tape. Glass one side with tape, let it cure. Fill the joint good with thickened epoxy on the other side, the glass tape will hold in the glue. Strike it off clean with a plastic spreader. No sanding necessary. And don't put that plastic sheeting on top of it, it just makes a mess and creates more work. Use what you need to not glue it to the floor underneath though.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:37 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen I would do everything Cracker Larry says. He is THE MAN when it comes to building these boats :wink:
As for the transom I would bet one layer would be strong enough but that would limit your options. Maybe you or somebody else will want to put a motor on it at a later date and then that little extra glass would have sure been nice :doh: Either way it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:13 pm
by Jaysen
Recovery from plan:
1. Let wood dry (some idiot fell asleep and it rained without the cover)
2. Use CL glass tape method putting tape on INSIDE of hull panels.
3. Glue up all doubled pieces including transom.
4. Get back on assembly schedule.

Only really sets me back 4 days but I have a lot of working time tomorrow. Shouldn't be more than a day behind by tomorrow evening.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:16 pm
by Cracker Larry
Don't even set a schedule until you've had some experience. Take whatever time it takes to make it right. Most everything will take 2 or 3 times longer than you think it will.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:45 pm
by Jaysen
I'm unclear in a fiberglassing point...

Do I "fill" the weave with epoxy?

Right now, fresh wet, I can see the weave and there is a clear texture. I'm thinking I'm being too stingy with my application.
Image
Image

And here's my doubled parts (except skeg). Mrs asked the important question, "are you smarter, more experienced, or just plain arrogant?" My answer was to go get the second transom and just do it.
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:28 pm
by Cracker Larry
That looks fine. You now want to sand that tape with 60 or 80 grit in a R/O sander. Not an angle grinder :!: The tape has binding threads in it that stand proud. Sand those flush and feather all the edges to where they blend. Then roll another coat of epoxy over it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:33 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, looks like a good start to me!! Just listen to Cracker Larry and you cannot go wrong!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:38 pm
by Jaysen
Just have to wait for it to fully harden for sanding. Other than the texture any issue with not sanding?

I've been struggling to figure out how to ensure vertical on the frames. Just need to take time to consider the how before I start drawing lines on the panels.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:10 am
by Jaysen
Jacques,

On the v12 plans it shows the frames at 3, 6, 10 feet from bow. In the plans the 6' mark is also the butt joint+block. When I measure the 6' out on the CNC kit i'm about 8" in front of the puzzle joint. Is this a change in joint location or should I assume I messed this up?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:48 pm
by Jaysen
Well... No real progress other than multiple measuring verifications. Dang bugs seem to have adapted to the bug spray.

At this point I'm sure that I have 6' properly marked. It is 8" forward of the puzzle joint.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:03 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, just keep going and send us some updated photos tomorrow!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:01 pm
by Jaysen
I think I have all the "easy stuff" done. Everything left is the hard stuff.

Mid seat and double transom
Image

Image

Stern seat frame
Image

Bow seat frame (this is supposed to be temp for sail version)

Image

And we start to have a boat!
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


Not sure I care about this too much. can I "fix it' with glass and fairing?
Image
I can move panels enough to smooth joints, but not quite get it to close up pretty.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:33 pm
by Cracker Larry
That looks great. The small gap is insignificant and no problem to fill.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:38 pm
by terrulian
I struggled with that area too.
The short answer to your question is "yes."
Getting it done is the long part.
Can you put one more stitch at the knuckle and pull it together?
Another idea, similar to what I did, is to somehow get a clamping arrangement on the outside, perhaps with a ratchet strap with a block at the part that is sticking out. Then put a couple of layers of glass on the inside, avoiding the zip ties, as you goop up the outside between the ties. The glass will hold it together when you remove the ties, at which point you can fill the rest of the edges, sand, and tape.

If you can't get that to work, I think I would take a rasp and remove the part that is sticking out. You can fill it with a couple of small pieces of glass and some chopped mat later. There is a lot of taping in that area; both chines and the bow, inside and out, are overlapped. There will not be an issue of strength so I would concentrate on the shape.

My amateur advice.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:39 pm
by Jaysen
My thought was to fill the interior with paste till smooth, glass it, then pull out that grinder to smooth off the protrusion on the outside. Since you convinced me to put 12oz glass on the exterior I don't think I need it structurally. I can't imagine that epoxy would be weaker than wood at that spot.

Thoughts?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:08 pm
by terrulian
Many ways to skin a cat, and that will work fine, is my guess.
Who skins cats? Larry?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:03 am
by Cracker Larry
Not me, but I've got 2 dogs who like to skin cats :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:59 am
by Jaysen
T, how much did your v10 wind up weighing? I scanned the thread but didn't see anything (granted I wasn't reading every word/post...).

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:38 am
by terrulian
Yeah, it's a tank, and weighs in at 120. I rigged a scale to weigh it.

To be fair, however, a plastic Walker Bay 9'8" dinghy weighs 126, and their 10'2" RID weighs 149.
But even though I'd like it to be lighter, it would not be possible for me to just sling it around if it weighed 20 lbs less. I have a dinghy cart with two large bicycle type wheels and have pretty much figured out how to get it in and out of my van and onto the beach without having a heart attack; although it must be admitted that when I go rowing, the launch and retrieve part of the day is by far the most strenuous.

I don't think the extra weight is because I was sloppy with the glass. I'd have to go back and look, but the assembled boat with the seats just in place but not glassed in weighed around 85 and that was with layer of glass on the whole bottom, not required in the plans. Glad I did that, though. But other things that added weight were glassing all the clear areas and lots of fairing everywhere. There is no place on the boat that has not been faired, and this all adds up, although I was surprised at how much it ended up adding. Also, 3-4 coats of epoxy/graphite on the bottom, a bronze skid plate on the skeg, and no less than 7 coats of varnish or paint.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:11 am
by Buz
Could you use a 1/4" hook (like a gate hook) to reach through the crack from within and pull it back flush?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:35 am
by Jaysen
T, I figured your v10 will be about the same weight of my v12. Simply due to less glassing and finishing. Only reason I'm curious is to see how many bodies I will need to get her on the cart the first time and to make sure I can get her up the ramp post outing. I have a smaller cart than yours but will only be launching over paved areas. And the launch is 550' from the house. I'm thinking about upgrading to a "laser" style dolly just to make it simpler. Now that I think about it... sail and rigging, lunch, beverages, cooler of ice... I'm going to be making multiple trips for launch anyway...

Buz, nope. wouldn't really close much up. I think the build and shape method is more my style anyway. It will get done quickly. And, if I don't do stupid, the only one that will know is me. And the rest of you.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:45 am
by terrulian
Don't know which style cart you have but balance makes a huge difference. If the wheels are in the back you have to support most of the weight, whereas if you can put them under the center of gravity you can make the bow feather light. The big wheels may not make a difference if you have a paved ramp, but they are a lot of help on rough terrain.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:58 am
by Jaysen
it's a cheap "john boat" unit I picked up from Amazon. The plan was to get this as a temp solution while I figured out what would work best. Will be relegated to kayak duty if I upgrade to a better v12 option. This one just sits under the boat where ever you put it. My biggest dislike is the narrow wheel base. Seems tippy... but 550'. I could just be more responsible...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:24 pm
by Jaysen
Two questions for tonight

Process order question: Hull is stitched and bottom up. Do I glue the seams now, or flip and do from the inside? The directions and how to docs are a bit ambiguous. I feel like I should flip, glue, remove stitches, fillet, fg tape the hull then move to the frames before I do outside.

Frame position/adjustment: I noticed that I have flat spots on both side of the hull at the mid seat frame. It feels like I need to remove the frame and adjust the fit by adding spacers. This would also allow limber holes to be cut. Is this a safe time to do that? should I wait until 90% of the seams are done? is it too late?

Thanks.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:38 pm
by Cracker Larry
Question 1. I'd leave it bottom up, mix thickened epoxy and put some between all the stitches. Let it cure for a day and then remove the stitches. Sand that smooth and make a fillet along the entire length. Then brush it with epoxy and put on the tape while it's all still wet. Then whatever outside glass is called for. I'd do everything including fairing and priming on the outside before I flipped it and started on the inside.

#2. Don't even glue or glass anything when you detect a flat spot. Fix it. You'll just make it flat forever. Do whatever it takes to make fair hull lines. That's more important than exact dimensions.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:53 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks CL. That's the nicest "fix your stupid" I've had in a while. I'm not sure I can get in there with the hull upside down though. I'll have to give it some think time.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:19 pm
by Jaysen
Wait...

What about the needed rhinoplasty? If I tape and glass the outside then I'll have to grind it all off and the tape/glass the bow again. Am I missing something?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:12 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen are you talking about that little wart on her nose? If so it needs to be fixed before you glass over it or it will be a problem for you. I am not sure but from the pictures it looks to me like a slight trim, saw blades worth, and it would drop right in place. I am sure the others will chime in with the best plan. I do know getting it all fair is top priority.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:27 pm
by Jaysen
It really isn't much. Less than 1/4" at the widest. Not sure where to trim the panels though. It is a cnc kit so I'm certain the panels are cut right. I'm almost wondering if I need to "pull" the bow down which will move the side panels off that joint relieving the pressure that's pushing it open. I did remove the center support from the table which might accomplish that for me over night.

But I'm likely thinking about it all wrong.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:41 pm
by terrulian
I agree with Fuzz, don't glass it without getting that bump faired out. If you can't get the panels to fit, I'd take a rasp and remove enough wood to make it fair. If this leaves a void at the very bow, mix up some goop and fill it (wood flower and epoxy and if it's too big then put some chopped mat in the mixture or if you don't have that, take a pair of scissors and cut tiny pieces from a piece of cloth to add some structure, making sure to wet it out). The process I just described can be done at the same time you're putting the thickened epoxy between the stitches. Then let it all kick and shape as Larry suggests until it's fair, and only then put your tape on.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:53 am
by Jaysen
Great. That was kind of what I came up with last night. Thanks for all the advice that keeps me making forward progress.

Tonight's plan will be to refit mid frame, glue bottom from transom forward to mid frame, the start in the bow cleanup. I'll check up on the settling lunchish and wipe her down a bit more at the same time.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:05 pm
by Jaysen
Last minute panic/confirmation: before using peanut butter glue between stitches do I need to "prime" with straight epoxy? Seems like yes but since Larry left that out I'm second guessing everything.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:38 pm
by Fred in Wisc
That's the best practice, but it's usually OK if you just glue it. If you haven't done it yet, precoat. If it's already glued,you're probably still OK.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:07 pm
by Jaysen
I'm a belt, suspenders, duct tape and staples kind of guy. I erred for caution and used 6oz of straight mixed to make a 4" wide area on each side of all seams. Made sure to get in the joint area as well to hit end grain. I may need my "tool of distruction" to get a few ties out, but I'm sure it's all sealed. Glue delayed until tomorrow due to laziness.

Got invited on a sail out to the Bettsy Ross for fill fishing over the weekend. That will slow my weekend progress down quite a bit.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:40 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, get us some updated photos by the end of the weekend!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:18 pm
by Jaysen
I should have a few before o leave for my little trip tomorrow evening. Really doesn't look any different as all I've done that is noticeable is

1. Removed mid seat frame to correct flat spot. Frame is a bit over 3/8" narrow so just leaving it out to make hull shape right
2. Rebuilt support structure to remove end support and allow bow/transom to hang free.
3. Removed 2 bow ties to "fair" bow lines. Will bulk it up with a bit of epoxy+glass to make smooth bow (will add about 1" to LaW).

While "behind" the planned progress I'm still on track for my hoped for "not quite legal" splash date. SC has some instructions that are not clear to the virgin builder. I'll likely put her in the water before I have all the HIN and registration completed. Lil Bit is in a very grey area regarding need for registration. I'll risk it for one trip.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:39 pm
by Jaysen
Well I'm a loser. No pics.

While I knew it was coming, this week is particularly bad for work. Add the sailing that just got moved up to an earlier departure and no work was done over lunch and I will be grabbing supplies and boarding bigger boat at normal evening boat building time. On the plus side, I may be able to add some fishing pictures...

CL what do you recommend for the Betsy Ross reef?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:47 pm
by Cracker Larry
This late in the summer, should be some kings and spanish macks around there. Almost certainly some amberjack and spade fish. And the ever present barracudas which are a lot of fun on spinning tackle. I wouldn't expect much bottom fishing. Water is too hot. Fish are deeper Small sea bass, grunts and porgys, maybe a keeper trigger or sheepshead. Too dang hot for me! Let us know how you did 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:20 pm
by Jaysen
Big water sail fail!!!

Two people on boat. Me and captain. We turned around because one was violently sea sick. Guess who was sick.

We made it out past the last Port Royal bouy then about 4miles more before I decided the fish could make better use of everything I've eaten in the last month. Still had a ball and loved being on the boat (it's a Vanguard 31). Looks like I'll get another shot at it in about two weeks. The owner is a great guy and just likes to sail. We'll just plan day sails until I can do a few hours in the big stuff.

Mrs is convinced I'm "broken". I Spent four hours vomiting and would do it again tomorrow if I hadn't gotten sunburned due to being too busy hurling to apply more sunscreen. I figure this insanity isn't any worse the BBV. She didn't like that response.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:51 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen many times you just have to work up to it. If the trip starts off smooth and then builds later on it might not be a problem. I had a deck hand who got sick every trip :help: Sick or not he keep working with no complaint, toughest sucker I ever met. He bought a set of the SeaBand wrist bands and never had another problem. Not sure they would work for you but they sure did for him. Only time I ever got sick was from trying to sleep in the bow during heavy seas :cry: Didn't like the feeling much at all :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:03 pm
by Jaysen
Water was like glass in the marina and just built as we went out. It was my first time in a sailboat on the ocean. I thought about taking some of the standard drugs but figured "what do I have to loose?" Apparently about 6lbs. Next time I'll take the drugs. If that helps I'll look into non-pharmaceutical solutions.

I will say that I will never make fun of anyone that suffers from seasickness in any form.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:11 am
by Cracker Larry
It's a miserable feeling for sure, and one I never make fun of, except for sometimes with certain people :lol: Some people can puke and still function, some are so bad they are ready to shoot themselves. I took a shotgun away from my wife one night, and tied her down so she wouldn't jump overboard. No kidding. Ask her. She can't ride in the back seat of a car without getting sick.

After that trip she discovered transderm scopalamine patches. They work, and 1 patch behind the ear will work for 2 or 3 days, with very little side effects. She doesn't get on a boat, airplane, or a car ride in the mountains without one. It's also available in pill form. Aripeka Angler turned me on to those and they work excellent. They even work after you get sick. Scopase I think they are called. Voice of experience here. Patch and pill are both prescription. They work. I don't very often get sick, but I dang sure can, and have been known to throw up alongside the best of them. It is a miserable feeling.

I ran charter fishing boats for quite a few years, took 1,000 or more people a year fishing, 4 -6 a day, 200-300 days a year, probably have taken 20,000 people offshore fishing, and I've seen a whole lot of them throw up. They don't like seeing the Capt. throw up, but it's been know to happen.

Wrist bands and such are just placebos, and seasick is often state of mind. If you think you are going to get sick, you probably will, and if you think an acupressure wrist band will help, it probably will. I had a lady first mate on my charter boat for about 5 years who wore a wrist band every day. Wouldn't get on a boat without it. It worked for her. If I feel it coming on I try to focus on the horizon, don't go in the cabin, keep my mind focused on a task. I do better running the boat than riding, so I can focus on the compass course, plotter, fish finder, looking for fish, and not just the boat motion.

I think some of it is mental state of mind, but I know it also physical. It is caused by your eyes telling your brain one thing, and your inner ear equilibrium telling your brain another, causing a conflict in senses. A couple of beers will often help, it dulls those senses a little bit. I had another mate for a few years who had terrible motion sickness but if he drank a few beers on the ride out he was good to go. I can't drink beer at 6 am but he could and it worked for him :D The fish whistle also helps, don't ask me to explain that if you don't know :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:43 am
by WouldWork
I agree with Larry. I like to find a stationary point on the horizon and stare at it. I find the feeling of sickness dissipates immediately for me. If you're close enough to land, look at a building or a hill top or similar.

I tried wrist bands when I was a kid and they seemed to work, but like Larry said - because I believed they would. I only ever got seasick while stationary though, another easy cure for me was to pull up the anchor and cruise to a new spot. I don't seem to suffer anymore. I kinda forgot about it, again agreeing with Larry here - if I didn't think about it, it didn't happen.

I was fishing with a friend at the Barnard Islands. We used to go out almost every weekend, and rarely caught fish. It was more about just being out on the ocean and having a cold drink. One day however we got on a good little mini reef and pulled in several good fish. My friend was brutally hung over though, and started to feel sick. His recommendation was that we pull up anchor and cruise to a new spot..... I knew he was just sick, but his 'idea' was finding an even better spot. I told him my stare at the horizon trick and it worked!! And we caught more fish. We also saw a mother and baby humpback whale shortly after. I was very pleased my seasickness trick worked otherwise we would have missed one of the best days in the boat ever.

Image

Good luck.

Cam.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:19 am
by Jaysen
The trigger for "onset" was a couple of unusually large waves while I was steering. Owner was below so I yelled for him since the logical action was counter to given direction. We took the first one on the port forward beam followed by the second to port aft. The coolest and oddest sensation ever. Before he headed below I said "hey Ed, take the tiller for a minute" leaned over the lee side and felt much better. Had the while horizon thing working. Felt fine immediately after. Then we got into a more beam sea and I just lost it. One of those dry heaves and completely incapacitated states. Horizon didn't help. Small things like the smell of diesel or oil from the lazerettes sent me over the side. I was completely useless.

This was my biggest fear going into the trip. Now I know and will be prepared next time. I think it is at least 50% psychological in my case and since I survived I'm no longer afraid of it. I'm going to start with some over the counter patch/pills and move on the the prescription or nonmedical solutions as I get more experience. This isn't going to slow me down too much.

The big positive is today is now "glue day" for Lil Bit.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:37 pm
by Jaysen
Taking a break even though 90% of this build appears to be me staring at the build notes, rereading online advice, counting supplies 14 times, then changing my plan, redoing the work space to accommodate new plan, then finally executing.

Before I started I needed to change the table. Again. Managed to "test fit" the little dolly. I think it will be fine.
Image

I'm taking the "do it like drywall" approach to glue.
1. Slap a bit more than needed in the area.
2. make sure the crack is filled.
3. Use edge to make as smooth as possible.
4. scrape area clean.
5. clean tools

This seems to result in less stuff I'll need to sand later. And leaves a bit of an edge to edge finish that follows the real lines of the curve. I can cover two seams from bow frame to transom with 3oz(mixed) epoxy and 50% wood flour (peanut butter) the glue does not drip through and holds stiff for gaps up to about 1/4" not sure it will make 3/8... Here are some pics.
Image
Image

I have a bit of a lip at the transom from the bottom panels being a tad longer. I'm mostly filling it with think glue for starts *this was the left over from the first 3oz). Hardest part is making the joint smooth. I'm sure it will be fine once I start getting some tape on it. I may take the grinder to it if it irritates me much more though.
Image
Image

Should be able to get everything but the nose job done tonight. I want to take my time on the bow. It's a large gap the way I'm planning and I really don't want to do it more than once.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:48 pm
by terrulian
I do think you need to grind down that seam, so that the tape will lie flat. Then round it over, since the tape won't like going around a hard edge.

Great progress, it's looking like a boat.

Seasickness is a bitch. As they say, first you're afraid you're going to die, and then you're afraid you won't. I haven't been seasick for a long time but I've been sailing in protected waters. I'm sure if I went to sea again and it was a little rough, I'd feel ill. You're in good company, though, Admiral Nelson said "I am ill every time it blows hard and nothing but my enthusiastic love for my profession keeps me one hour at sea."
I agree with all the above remedies. I had a strange experience with the wrist bands. I was feeling a little queasy on a trip up the coast and tried them on just kind of as a joke. But then a half hour later, after I had forgotten about them, I noticed I felt OK. They're not something I usually use though. I think everyone has to find their own favorite drug. I used to use meclizine the first day out, but then after about 36 hours the mind/body adjusts to the new reality and I was OK. But if the seas really get up, there aren't that many people who are completely immune to feeling at least a little lethargic and ill, even if they don't actually puke.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:20 pm
by Cracker Larry
I also get the opposite. If I've been on a boat for a long time in rough weather, when I get back on land I sometimes get land sick, from being on something that's not moving. Brought a sailboat up from the islands to Everglades City a few years ago, spent almost 2 weeks on the boat. Couldn't even walk when we got to land. Mrs. Cracker rented us a room at the Everglades Rod and Gun Club. I spent the night in a rocking chair on the porch and laying in the grass in the rain. It took me 12 hours to walk straight again. I couldn't even lay in a bed that wasn't moving without getting sick. Weird stuff. It effects everybody differently, but in my experience it will eventually effect everybody sometimes.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:01 pm
by terrulian
I've certainly heard of this happening but I've never experienced it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:23 pm
by Jaysen
Rained out for completing the glue up.

I couldn't imagine land sickness. I'm willing to risk it. It's one of those things I've wanted to do as long as I could read. I'm sure it's romanticized in my mind but the idea of sailing into ports in various parts of world seems like the ideal way to grow old(er) with the Mrs.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:59 pm
by Fuzz
For a man who just puked up his toenails you sure have a good attitude :!: Many folks would be running for the hills and never want to see more water than would fit in a glass :lol:
Like Terrulian said you will be hating life if you do not clean up the transom and round over all the joints before you try to glass. Glass does not like to make sharp bends, weaker also.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:19 pm
by Jaysen
I guess the "question" is if I build the outside of the transom to be flush with the bottom or do it trim the bottom to the transom? It sounds like "trim is better than build". I am planning to rind all the edges per the build notes. Wasn't planning on a router or anything, just some sanding. Do I need to break out the router?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:28 pm
by Fuzz
I think either way would work just fine. The transom does not need to look perfect if you are going to sharpen it up after you are done glassing. I forgot there is no power on this one so you will not need to make it sharp. In that case a router will make things neater. That would be my choice :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:58 pm
by Cracker Larry
I couldn't imagine land sickness. I'm willing to risk it. It's one of those things I've wanted to do as long as I could read. I'm sure it's romanticized in my mind but the idea of sailing into ports in various parts of world seems like the ideal way to grow old(er) with the Mrs
My Mrs. and I have sailed into many ports, always liked a new port. And we've both done our share of throwing up :lol: It goes with the territory.

I went fishing last year with Aripeka Angler, Majorgator, Wadestep was on that trip too I think, and another fellow named Bo. We ran out 65 miles in the GOM in really rough weather, and tried to fish in 8' seas. Everybody threw up to different extents. We caught a few nice fish somehow, then had to run 65 miles back home. Poor Bo was sicker than anyone I've ever seen sea sick. He was one miserable fellow. When we finally made it back to the dock, in the rain, he left the boat and ran for his truck. Said he didn't ever want to see a boat or a fish, or the ocean again. He was gone :lol:
I took a few steps on the dock, about fell down dizzy, climbed up to the grass and laid on my back in the rain for an hour before my brain got adjusted back to level ground and I could function.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:24 pm
by Fuzz
Cracker remind me to check the weather before going fishing with you or Richard :!: I am too old for that crap :help: It was different when I was doing it for a living, you went no matter what, now I go for fun and nobody is puking and having fun at the same time. :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:55 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote:puking and having fun at the same time. :lol:
I never thought I could say there was any truth to the above statement. Saturday proved my wrong. Plans are being made for a repeat (with less vomiting hopefully) on the 10th. Drug purchases planned.

Between now and then I should make some real progress on Lil Bit. Doubt she will hit the water before that though...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:32 pm
by pee wee
Just reading this thread makes my stomach a little queasy! :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:16 pm
by Cracker Larry
Cracker remind me to check the weather before going fishing with you or Richard :!:

Richard is a hell of a good Captain and I'd get on a boat with him and go anywhere, anytime. I've got a couple thousand sea miles with him. But if he ever tells you "It's going to lay down soon" or "I think it's laying down now" . You better hang on and get ready to puke :help: :help: His weather forecasting skills are not quite equal to his boat handling and fishing skills :lol: He is the eternal optimist, it's got to get better because it can't get much worse. I love him though :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:36 pm
by Jaysen
Larry, How's this for proper use of an angle grinder in boat building?

40gr flap disk made short work of the ledge. This was pre glue (damn bugs made it impossible to work, would have preferred seasick (as long as I was on the sea at the time))
Image
Image
Image

Glue up for all panel seams is done. I've stopped the glue far enough back to let me bend the bow closeder.
Image

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what my course is here, but it keeps coming out as "span, build. shape". I've got some access to some titanium sheet for the bow (don't ask) that may make it a bit more academic. That said, I'm not committed to any plan and "close it with clamps" is still viable. Just need these damn bugs to DIE DIE DIE!!!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 pm
by terrulian
Another option is to create a sliver of plywood that fits, then glue it in with some thickened epoxy. It can be a little sloppy and you can fill and shape after it kicks. As I mentioned earlier, any structure that provides a solid foundation will do, as there is so much glass in this area once you overlap the tape on the chines, bottom, and bow, both inside and out.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:56 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Yes, the sliver idea works ^^ :D Wood, wood flour and epoxy will fix just about any issue.
I really like the boat you are building, it's one of my favorite hulls from Bateau.
Keep up the good work...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:07 pm
by Aripeka Angler
As for your seasickness issue, try .4 mg Scopace.
The pharmaceutical company Hope used to make it, it's been discontinued for some unknown reason?
Get your MD to write a prescription for it and take it to a compounding pharmacy.
The stuff is literally a miracle drug for seasickness.
A capsule will cost you about $1.50.
I would pay $100 for one if I was about to puke :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:37 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Image

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what my course is here, but it keeps coming out as "span, build. shape". I've got some access to some titanium sheet for the bow (don't ask) that may make it a bit more academic. That said, I'm not committed to any plan and "close it with clamps" is still viable. Just need these damn bugs to DIE DIE DIE!!!
Just sitting here drinking my morning coffee and going over all of the site. It has become my morning ritual :D
So I was thinking what would happen if you cut the tie at the tip of the bow and let that gap open up some more :doh: Would that fix the bottom panel problem? One of the guys had a pretty big gap on his OD-18 bow. He used a split piece of PVC duct taped to the outside and filled the inside with wood glue. It made a really nice bull nose. Nice and round, easy to glass over also. Just a thought while the coffee does its work :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:15 pm
by Jaysen
it opens up to a narrow "garvey" flat front. One of my thoughts was to throw some tape on both sides/bottom (chine) joints and let it set up good. Then pull it closed. I think I could get it to close up nice if those sharp bottom panel points were firmly attached to the side panels. I'd have to leave the glass flexible right at the joint to let the joint angle change...

My current "scheme" looks more like opening the bow up, set some "spreaders" to hold the gap equidistant over it's length, the add some "backing" (such as your PVC) to make the bow a little further out there. I'm kind of liking the idea of something sacrificial running from the bow to the transom (cut for dagger board) to take some of the beating from concrete ramps (launch/landing) and getting banged into oysters.

In any event I'm not super worried about it. If I can survive the syringes, tonight will be mostly sanding/clean up and staring at my options for the bow. I have a long weekend and my only plan is to take the boss to the beach between coats of epoxy and paint.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:13 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen check out Texasrds OD-18 build on page 3. This was what I was speaking about. At least it will give you an idea of how much of a gap that can be filled. Any way you fix it I am sure it will work out just fine. :D And having never built a boat like yours I am sure others have much better ideas than me. Nice thing about this bunch, you never have to start from scratch.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:04 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Drill some holes and use all thread rod with flat washers and nuts to drag the panels together...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:24 pm
by Jeff
Really good guidance AA!! I will remember this for the future!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:05 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Screws, clamps, bolts...whatevever it takes to coax the wood into position to fuze it together with epoxy.
Here's an example from my strip canoe...

Image[/URL]

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:07 pm
by Jaysen
Unwilling to donate blood so no work done.

I'm not afraid to brute five it. I'm just not sure I need too. That gap isn't as big as it looks. Those zip ties are only about 3/16" wide. I can close it up except for about 1/4" right where all the panels come together. I opened it up just to think about options. I actually like the idea of glassing some pvc in the bow to hold a light pole or even a fishing rod. if it happens to be structural...

Which leads me to the other thing I've been scratching my head on: lighting plan. I'd like to have small power on board for lights (running and fishing) and comfort accessories (phone charger maybe some tunes). Using LED lights and a motorcycle/lawnmower battery I figure I should be good for a couple overnights full run without recharge. I'm thinking that the battery should go under the breasthook on the bow as the place likeliest to stay dry. I thought about in the rear seat, but I plan to fill that with foam. The big advantage to putting the bat in he rear is there is less wire to run. The big things on my list:
1. Switch for running, working, and "anchor" accessible from rear and middle seat.
2. Permanent mounted bow and stern led. Masthead will have to be moveable or at least easy to disconnect.
3. Multiple cig plugs for accessory options.

And I know I'm not require to have lights but I'm in a very busy area. And I will be out at night. Better to put them on and be called over cautious.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:29 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, I agree that you can never make you boat "too" safe for night boating!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:31 am
by Jaysen
Thanks to bugs and Hermine not much got done until yesterday. Then my sander decided to give up on me. Not to be deterred I forged ahead with the bow, then drove to buy a sander. Not too many pics but the bow is now closed.

Here's the before
Image

Here's how i filled it.
Image

Just straight thickened epoxy. I will be putting more thickened epoxy then 6oz biax tape + 12oz cloth (likely 2+ layers) over that. Will likely out live me.

Ok, I'm now at the "hey, how do I ..." stage again.

I've got sanding started and I'm ready to start the glass. here's what I "think" I'm supposed to do.
1. Measure tape and cut runs
2. Make some thickened epoxy
3. Skim everything to edge of tape and fill any hollows that result from sanding.
4. Lay tape over skim coat while still tacky to get tape to stick and to allow gentle corners
5. make a pile of straight epoxy
6. Wet out glass (I'm still not clear on how much epoxy this should take and how "full" the glass should be)
7. while tacky add second or more coats of epoxy to tape to fill glass
8. ???
9. Put 12oz cloth over exterior (trim for needed overlap/relief at bow, (go to step 5)

step 8 is the problem. How do I sand the tape if I'm supposed to put the 12oz on with a "wet" tape layer for adhesion?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:09 am
by terrulian
I'm sure more experienced builders will respond, but if I'm following you correctly, that isn't how I'd do it.
1. Fair all the edges so the glass will bend smoothly around them. This may require additional filler, which should kick and then be sanded.
2. Cut the glass tape to length.
3. Wet out the surface where you're going to lay the glass.
4. At this point some people wet out the glass before laying it down, but I lay it out and then wet it out with either a chip brush or by pouring on the glass and using a squeegee, depending on the surface I'm covering. As to how "full" the glass should be, it should be transparent but epoxy should not puddle up. You want to use the minimum of epoxy to make the fabric become clear.
5. Let that kick unless you are laying another layer of glass on top of it wet on wet. If you do that, I would wait until the epoxy is "green" or semi-cured, so as not to disturb the previous layer.
6. If you are not adding more glass wet on wet, wait until the epoxy kicks and then sand the high spots and rough edges.
7. If you have not previously put another layer on wet on wet, add more glass if called for.
8. When all is cured and dry, sand and begin the fairing process with your chosen goop.

I know I'd have a problem trying to add thickened epoxy on top of freshly laid glass. I'd end up pushing the glass around and making a mess of things; so while the glass is wet I would inspect for any bubbles, holidays, etc. Then I'd let the epoxy cure before adding fairing.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:12 am
by Jaysen
Tape cut. I'm planning 2" over on the ends to make sure it gets covered by next layer tape. I didn't see any real spec on that so I'm hoping that will be sufficient. That leave 3 layers of 6oz tape and 2layers 12oz fabric on the bow (over lapping ends). I don't think it's going anywhere.
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:13 am
by terrulian
By the way, that bow will be fine; but smooth out the radius with more thickened epoxy before taping. Glass doesn't like going around hard edges.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:15 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote:By the way, that bow will be fine; but smooth out the radius with more thickened epoxy before taping. Glass doesn't like going around hard edges.
There will be a lot more build although post sanding it doesn't need much. 50gr pad sander did work this morning.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:20 am
by Jaysen
Thanks Tony. My plan was too put the glass over the last coat of thickened epoxy (bow build, holes filled, etc) before it was fully cured. Your way make sense and explains why I wasn't understanding the intermediate sanding step.

Even with my very limited experience,I don't think there is any way to put thickened epoxy on wet class. That would seem to the easiest way to drive a person insane.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:30 pm
by topwater
After you glass you can apply fairing compound with out sanding if you put it on with in
24 hour cure stage. I try to stay between 12 and 24 hours, some people say you can go
up to 48 hours but i never have.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:27 pm
by terrulian
Topwater no doubt works neater than I do. I find I always need to knock some stuff down by sanding before continuing with the fairing goop.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:37 pm
by Jaysen
What's the general time between kick and sanding for slow hardener at 80F?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:01 pm
by terrulian
You can sand at any time after it's gotten hard enough to just be tacky, but it will gum up your paper. What I do is do the gross stuff with a rasp while it's still a little green, and then wait until it gets hard enough so that it doesn't load up the sandpaper.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:04 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks. I'll give that a shot.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:16 am
by Jaysen
And here's the rhinoplasty results!

ImageImage
Image
Image


It's not perfect, but I'm pleased with it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:41 am
by glossieblack
Looks terrific from here Jaysen. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:09 am
by terrulian
Looks terrific.
I had some trouble right at the knuckle. All the bending and fairing makes it a bit of a challenge to have that area come out as perfectly symmetrical. You've done a great job.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:17 am
by Jaysen
Thanks guys.

Tony, it's FAR from perfect, but I'm happy with it. I'm hoping to get the tape on over my lunch break. that will really make that knuckle area bulk up. I'm most concerned about the two "chine" pieces adding too much texture with their overlap. I'll need to use caution to make sure it is smooth before and after the center piece is down

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:59 am
by Jaysen
After losing 8 out of 12 of thickened epoxy due to it kicking in the cup, I'm trying to figure out how to do my tape efficiently. I think I will need 12oz to "paint" the seams and seal the hull. My guess is that I will windup in the same situation with more than half of it unusable by the time I need to use it. I mention this as this is the easier part (using a roller) compared to actually wetting out glass based on my very limited experience.

What is the best way to get epoxy onto the tape/fabric and avoid lots of loss?

Can I just pour it out of the cup and onto the glass? Seems run prone, but ... it would spread things around reducing heating up the epoxy and hastening the chemical reaction. Thoughts?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:27 am
by Marshall Moser
You can make a tray covered in tape to spread it out on. Just getting it out of the pot will extend open time.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:34 am
by terrulian
What marshall said.
Get it out of the cup pronto and onto the glass. You will get WAY more time to work. In a big area just pour a thin stream so it doesn't run so much, then go back with a plastic spreader or brush and move it where it needs to go. The bow is almost vertical so you will probably have to wet that out with a chip brush.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:36 am
by Fred in Wisc
Best way is to get it out of the cup pronto. It reacts way faster in a big mass than a thin sheet.

12oz is a pretty big batch, unless you are doing a biggish lamination with biax. I usually mix a lot of small batches, like 150ml /6 oz or so.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:34 pm
by Jaysen
Lets' see, I have ~36' of 6oz biax tape. I figured 2x12 would be needed just to make "cover+50%". How I arrived at that was that my 3' of 6oz took about 2oz for the puzzle joint mess. So
36'/3' x 2oz = 12 x 2oz = 24oz

Is there other math I should use for ball parking this?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:59 pm
by pee wee
you need to figure square yards, not running yards. 36" x 36" or 3'x3', so in your case 36' x 6" = 18s.f./9 = 2 square yards of 6oz. glass so you'd figure it will take 2x6=12 oz. of resin to arrive at 50%.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:43 pm
by Marshall Moser
Just like pee wee said, you need an ounce for every 3' of 6oz 6" tape. If you only need 24' to tape your remaining joints, you'll need 8oz of epoxy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:51 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks guys. That's a much better way to look at it. With 36' of tape, 12oz of mixed epoxy. Add some for pre-wetting the surface and smaller batches make sense. I'm thinking I'll go back to my 3 and 6 sizes.

Using that same math but for cloth, I'll need 12oz of epox for every sqyd of 12oz cloth. 3yd x1.5yd == 4.0yd^2 x 12oz = 48oz epoxy.

Seem right?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:07 pm
by Marshall Moser
so your cloth is 9' x 4.5' ?

that would yield 4.5 sy of cloth or 54oz of epoxy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:20 pm
by Jaysen
I'll need to measure for exact. I was spit balling to check the math more than doing an exact fit... but yeah. We've also learned that I can no longer to simple math in my head.

Now that I think about it the length is probably closer to 3.75yd (11ft) and the width is closer to 1.2yd (3.6ft). I'll measure at some point tonight and get the numbers right.

CL/Jacques (and everyone else), with this cloth for the bottom I'm struggling to find the right overlap. Is it better to use one long piece bow to sterns with a curved cut to allow 2-4" overlap at bow, or two long pieces that join right at the "apex" of the V (hull is upside down) with 2-3" overlap over the entire apex?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:15 pm
by Jaysen
3x12oz + 1x3oz of epoxy used. And I don't think I put enough into the tape. Very rough texture. I'll have to get pics in the AM.

When we are talking glass+epoxy are we talking the same ounce? I'm using fluid ounce for epoxy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:02 pm
by Buz
I'm a few weeks behind you in my build and just did my first glass taping this weekend, so what do I know, but...

it sure seems like I, too, have to use more than 6oz of epoxy per square yard of 6 oz glass to fill the weave. With that ratio, the wetted weave still stood proud of the epoxy. I used an additional ounce or two to fill the first 48" splice but decided to wait and fill the others splices later, during the fairing process.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:52 am
by Jaysen
Here we have some pics of the glassing

Here the "pre wetting" layout. You can see how I overlapped the chines to the bow then covered the bow.
Image
Image
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Here's the bow this morning all dried and looking sturdy.
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I put 36floz of epoxy into those three runs of tape and they are STILL very textured. Image
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Looks like a LOT of voids on the starboard chine. That's going to be a PITA.
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At this point I have to do some emergency travel. So much for having her in the water this weekend :).

Here's the list of things to do before I start on the inside
• Move primary support of hull off of side panels and onto frames (i've noticed some unusual bowing)
• Deal with the voids
• 12oz glass over bottom
• 3 primer coats
I'm not sure if I need to sand all the texture off the tape or just "cover it" with the 12oz. I have till Monday next week to figure that out. I do want to fill the voids first and am open to suggestions on how to get those dealt with. I'm also uncertain how to prevent them given how much epoxy I used trying to wet that stuff out (it should have been floating!).

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:54 am
by Fred in Wisc
I'd try filling those voids using syringes full of very slightly thickened epoxy and wood flour. Just enough wood flour to help it stay in place once injected, the mix will still be translucent. I like the disposable 3cc syringes for that. Trim off that needle locking screw thing on the tip, it leaves a small round point, drill holes through the glass that the point fits tightly into and inject the epoxy (put a small hole on the other end of the void so air can escape).

You'll want to sand that biax tape mostly smooth or you'll have crazy air bubbles everywhere. The threads that hold the biax together are what sticks up, buzz them off with a sander. A slightly rough finish is fine, the new epoxy will fill it in and it will bond well. I use 60 grit discs for that, just be careful not to cut into the glass much, just take off the high spots. If you can work wet on wet, you get to skip that sanding step, it saves a lot of time.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:10 am
by Buz
So, wet on wet entails leaving the binder threads under subsequent layers of tape? The binder threads in the top layer are the only ones sanded off?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:32 am
by Fred in Wisc
Yup. When you wet them out and put another layer of biax cloth over them, the binder threads squish down. I'm not sure if that would work with a lighter cloth over the top, I've never tried that.

It's even better if you can vacuum bag it but that adds a whole level of complexity.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:43 am
by Jaysen
syringes and sanding in my future. hooray!

Seriously though, I'm pretty sure I can make quick work of the threads. I'm not sure how I wound up with the voids though. how do i prevent them going forward?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:21 am
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote:syringes and sanding in my future. hooray!

Seriously though, I'm pretty sure I can make quick work of the threads. I'm not sure how I wound up with the voids though. how do i prevent them going forward?
In most cases the radius was too small. Glass does not like to make sharp corners. I find for me if I make the radius larger I do not have very much trouble with the bubbles.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:48 am
by terrulian
It's hard to be perfect and avoid any voids at all but Fred and Fuzz are correct about the radius.
Depending on the size of the voids I'd be tempted to take a rasp to them and remove all the glass that is not affixed to the hull; then patch with glass and sand when it cures. For small voids follow Fred's advice.
I'm confused about the discussion of wet on wet in Jaysen's case, as the epoxy in this glass will have cured and there will be no squishing, right? Maybe I missed something. But Fred is right, knock down just the high spots and don't try to get the biax smooth or you'll remove too much glass.
You're doing great, though. Even though I had worked with glass quite a bit before this build (not that it shows :?), I had never built a boat from scratch and kept being nervous about my layup. You'll find that reasonably careful work will result in a very strong boat. Superior craftsmanship is always admirable, but you don't have to go there to have a fine result.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:01 pm
by Cracker Larry
What they all said above. And it doesn't look that bad for a first tape job.
I'm not sure if I need to sand all the texture off the tape or just "cover it" with the 12oz
Yes, if it's cured for a day or more, sand off the binding threads and feather out all the edges of the cloth so they blend smooth with the hull to the touch, with 60 or 80 grit in a R/O sander. If you don't, you'll get air bubbles under the cloth that follows.
After you sand it smooth, then I'd roll another coat of epoxy over it. That will fill a lot of those little bubbles. Then see what you got.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:01 pm
by Fred in Wisc
the wet on wet advice is for next time. too late now once it's cured.

And the guys commenting here are right, a radius on the corner is very helpful, and your tape job looks just fine for not having done it before. And it only gets better with practice.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:39 pm
by Jaysen
Well. it will be well cured before I get back so sand sand sand.

Radius: what are we talking? 1/4", 3/8"? I was close to 1/4' with some places being more like 3/8". I may take Tony's approach and remove the bubbles just to check the radius and see if these are all in the "sharp" sections.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:27 pm
by terrulian
The radius depends on the type and weight of glass you're using but I'd say you want to shoot for 3/8". 1/4" (not that I really measure these) may present some problems.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:14 pm
by Fred in Wisc
I've used both. Usually with a router and oundover bit. 1/4 seems fine with light woven cloth like 4-6oz, but heavier stuff is a lot easier with a 3/8 or 1/2 radius. You usually build the edge back up afterwards with some wood flour putty, sharp edges work better on planing boats.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:12 pm
by Jaysen
Stupid stupid stupid

You all warn everyone

Did I listen? NNNOOOOOO

I'm trying to figure out if a vg26 stretched a bit will require less sanding once I know how to do fiberglass.

Anyway...

Is there a topside and bottom side to the fg tape? I'm wondering if I put it on upside down.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:57 am
by Fred in Wisc
I have never noticed a difference with 12 oz tape, woven tape, biax fabric or lightweight woven fabric. I just roll it out and glue it down.

Working wet on wet saves a tremendous amount of sanding. So does vacuum bagging with peel ply but that adds cost and complexity

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:34 am
by Cracker Larry
No, there is no difference.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:35 am
by Jaysen
dang it.

Wet on wet wouldn't matter since there is only supposed to be one layer of tape. I'm adding the fabric for "anti-oyster". I'm not sure how this would ever yield a "smooth" finish. It's like a dang checkerboard for traveling.

Which brings me to my biggest fear. If the cloth is like this I might as well be in a slab fronted box. I'm guessing I need some type of filler/fairing compound. Do I need "baby butt" on this before I put the cloth over it? do I need to fill the underlying weave with something of will it just fill with epoxy? How the heck do I make the interior "smooth" so it doesn't collect fish guts?

I guess i will need something to smooth/fill the outer layer with no matter what. I'm not going for Cracker Larry show room so I'm thinking quick fair is overkill. Whats the simplest thing to use that I can get from Bateau?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:48 pm
by Jaysen
When glassing over cured, do you need to "prime" with straight epoxy?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:23 pm
by Fuzz
Cracker Larry wrote:What they all said above. And it doesn't look that bad for a first tape job.
I'm not sure if I need to sand all the texture off the tape or just "cover it" with the 12oz
Yes, if it's cured for a day or more, sand off the binding threads and feather out all the edges of the cloth so they blend smooth with the hull to the touch, with 60 or 80 grit in a R/O sander. If you don't, you'll get air bubbles under the cloth that follows.
After you sand it smooth, then I'd roll another coat of epoxy over it. That will fill a lot of those little bubbles. Then see what you got.
Do this first and then lay the next layer.
As for getting it really smooth I would go ahead and us quickfair on it. If you only put on what you need you will not use very much. I would bet the small kit would do your whole boat. Most people screw up by putting on way too much quickfair and then sanding it back off, me included :roll:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:16 pm
by Jaysen
How did I miss that post. All the answers right in front of me. I did lay the transom tape so I'll let that cure up them get back to sanding.

Back out to roll up the big chunk o' cloth.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:58 am
by Jaysen
Only because I want to keep moving on the build, any reason I can't use wood flour for fairing?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:07 pm
by Cracker Larry
any reason I can't use wood flour for fairing?
You can, but it's much harder to sand than fairing compound. If you feather out those tape edges, you shouldn't need much or any.

Before glassing the entire hull, roll a sealing coat of epoxy over the entire thing. Then I let that almost cure, to where it's a little tacky, and then roll out the final cloth covering. The plywood absorbs a lot of epoxy If you try to wet out the cloth over raw plywood it's much harder and the ply will soak up a lot of the resin from the glass, possibly leaving it starved. I always prime first, both for tape and big areas.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:17 pm
by Jaysen
I think "starved" may be what happened with the tape. I put "way to much" epoxy down yesterday and the overlaps look good. I may have been too stingy on the primer coats. I've got two on now but sanding has me close to the wood. All do some touch up then roll a decent coat on.

I need to post pics, but should I put the bottom cloth on as one sheet or multiple? I've got it slotted to fit on as one piece but I'm wondering if it will be just a bit much to work with.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:22 pm
by Cracker Larry
Does the building notes or lamination schedule call for an overlap of the glass down the keel? Most do and go on in 2 pieces with a 6" overlap on both sides of the keel, or center line. But I put it on and wet it out as if it were one piece. Pre-measure the epoxy you think you need, I put them in keg cups. Red for resin, blue for hardener. 12 oz. batches, 8 and 4. Mix and spread them one at a time as needed. I start from the stern and work towards the bow, keeping a wet edge all the way. Pour it on the hull and use a roller and plastic squeegee to spread it out. Keep working forward. I could do that 12' boat in an hour :D Preparation is the trick.

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Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:30 pm
by Jaysen
Plans are for seam tape only, a person called Cracker Larry and I worked out the 12oz cloth as oyster protection. ;)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:38 pm
by Jaysen
Here are some pics less a bit of sanding

Patching the areas that I had to sand way down and the transom tape.
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Here's how I plan to overlap the cloth at the bow
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One "big sheet" if the plan unless this is really a bad idea.
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And here's what I was talking about when I suggested that maybe i didn't have enough epoxy under the tape. Left side of image is what I have on most of the seams. The right side is where I missed spreading a bit that I poured on the new tape. You can see the puddle below the tape. This is the only place where the tape is really invisible. Maybe when I roll on the next "prime coat" and fill it will start to look better?
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Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:19 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, really starting to make nice progress!! Keep the photos coming!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:49 pm
by Jaysen
Used about 1/3 the amount of wood flour to make a thin fill. Used a plastic putty knife to apply and while it's a little ugly on the radii I'm pretty happy. Need to have light for pics. Only mixed about 6oz total just to see if the ratio is right. May need to make it a bit thicker for the more vertical parts.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:47 pm
by Buz
Jaysen, I appreciate your thread and pics as I'm just a bit behind you in my similar build.

I'm also frustrated with trying to get a lower epoxy ratio in my tape without pulling it or something, and I had a couple of the same bubbles on the chine despite a 130 degree angle and very generous radius. I dunno. Can't figure it out. I did get good results, I thought, with 1/4 cup of woodflour per oz of epoxy for filling weave in the 6oz buttsplices.

Yours looks better than mine. Except in that spot there. I just plan on extra epoxy and sanding. :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:07 am
by Jaysen
Thanks Buz. Once the sun gets out of bed and wakes the birds I'll get some photos of my first attempts at wood flour fill.

I know I'm using more epoxy than I should. Im about half way through my 3g v12 kit. I'm guessing 50% of what I've put on has been turned into dust. I'm also nearly out of wood flour already. I'm chalking up to first timer's learning curve.

On the weave fill, I did about 1/3 the normal flour for the first batch. it was way runny and i think the vertical stuff ran (it looked that way at 11p when I glanced at it). My hoped for advantage to that plan was that the radii would self level and require less sanding. I did see some of it lay down, but my guess is I'll spend some time crying under my desk here in a few minutes.

As much as I appear to be frustrated by the process, I sure don't seem to see it as a terrible thing. I'm already talking to the boss about a second v12 or maybe something a bit larger for "after we use Lil Bit and get her dirty". Hopefully I'll get the "wet on wet" thing figured out by then.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:45 am
by Jaysen
I think I needed to go a bit thicker...

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Jeff, I think I need to talk about supplies. I'm not sure what I really need which is making ordering a tad difficult. Mind a little over the phone consulting this afternoon?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:29 pm
by topwater
Buy Quick fair or the blended filler for fairing. If you use wood flour it going to be a bear to sand
and the filler doesn't need to be that hard , plus you will just add weight .

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:35 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, sorry, I have been in the warehouse most of the day. Call me now or first thing in the morning!! Sorry for the delay!! 772.770.1225. Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:24 pm
by Jaysen
It will be tomorrow morning. No problem on the delay. Just need some help estimating how much more I need of what to consider complete the project.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:09 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, just call us anytime in the morning, very happy to help you with anything you might need!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:57 am
by Cracker Larry
I think I needed to go a bit thicker...
No, that's fine. Just sand down the binder threads, feather out the edges and roll another coat of epoxy over it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:25 am
by Jaysen
Thanks Jamie and Jeff. Order 27690 should be sitting with you.

For the rest of the folks, I realized I've already used about 1/2 the 3gal v12 epoxy kit, nearly all the wood flour, and I've not taped the inside or frames yet. That big sheet of cloth will be thirsty so I knew I would need more "stuff". Quick call and a review of what's done, still to be done, and my concerns about my consumption rate and we are all set.

While I wait on the rest of the supplies I'm going to start the dagger board and rudder. Mostly the shaping (I need to rethink my rudder plan as I really want to build a popup version). But I need to build my work area. Amazing what you realize you forgot to think of once you're holding a slab of wood and a grinder in your hand.

Larry, There's glass threads over the binder threads. I thought cutting though that was a no-no. Is there enough on glass under the threads to keep the strength? My other thought on the thickness was to prevent the running I know have down the side of the boat. I swear i've sanded more epoxy off as runs than is actually still on the boat. And believe it or not, the glass to wood edge is really smooth. That "run problem" actually paid off in that one aspect.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:54 am
by Noles309
Looks good to me as well. Fill the weave with blended filler as has been said and you are good.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:26 am
by terrulian
My other thought on the thickness was to prevent the running I know have down the side of the boat. I swear i've sanded more epoxy off as runs than is actually still on the boat.
To get enough epoxy in the glass, it is necessary to apply an amount that will run on vertical surfaces below the glass tape. Come back in 15-30 minutes (depending on the temperature and hardener) with a roller and smooth out the runs. Alternatively, if the runs have cured too much to handle in this way, you can use a plastic spreader or scraper to level them out before they get hard, and this will reduce the sanding time.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:28 am
by Jaysen
I did that... then went to bed. Apparently the running continued well after I'd stopped looking. I'm using slow hardener thanks to the tropical climate, but I think the lower temps have made it so I need to be a bit more cognizant of the fact that slow is ... slow.

In any event, I've gotten real good at using my sander.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:52 am
by terrulian
Well, nothing's perfect.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:58 am
by Jaysen
Lil Bit will be no exception...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:17 pm
by Jaysen
Lowered bait after realizing
1. The sides are bowing with current support.
2. My back/neck problem is from "too high"
3. One too many groin shots from the current support.

Have all my stuff from Boat BuilderCentral but can seem to find the volume ratio for this nifty pink fairing stuff. Anyone care to suggest a starting volume or consistency?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:57 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote:Lowered bait after realizing
1. The sides are bowing with current support.
2. My back/neck problem is from "too high"
3. One too many groin shots from the current support.

Have all my stuff from Boat BuilderCentral but can seem to find the volume ratio for this nifty pink fairing stuff. Anyone care to suggest a starting volume or consistency?
3. Hard to work on the boat when you are bent over sucking air :help:
CL says he starts with a thin or loose mix to fill the weave first. And then thicker to cover areas. I do not think there is a ratio, it is more by look and feel. Others who have used it more than me might have better advice :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:16 pm
by Jaysen
A long way from sucking air. Just moved the chine from shoulder level to elbow level. Means less holding the sander at eye level.

I searched the forum and saw someone mention frosting. I opted for pudding, maybe a bit stiffer. Managed to get it spread just as it started to get hot. Looks like itcovered most of it, but now is starting to shrink a bit. Looks like I need to plan another layer or 5.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:47 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, get us some photos when possible!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:53 pm
by Dougster
If its a vertical surface, I just use Quickfair. If I didn't have any I'd probably just get some, but otherwise I'd go peanut butter. As you say, and I know, it's a mess when it runs. Still, it's fairing mix and sands out easily. "Lil Bit' sure does look fun though.

Dougster

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:09 pm
by Jaysen
I think I'm just a tad stiffer than peanut butter for this one. My 6oz batch was about 10oz on filler was added. Just checked it and it's definitely shrunk into the weave a bit. Also noticed card where I hurried the application and made a mess. Should be able to get some decent pics tomorrow.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:17 am
by Jaysen
Here is the still tacky bug trap. I tried to keep the coat thin thinking that multiple thin would be better.
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But the bow and I ... Nope. Get it on and sand it off.
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This is where the stuff was getting warm in the bowl. I just dumped some lines on the tape and worked it with the plastic putty knife. Was thin on purpose. I think it will fill up nice with one more coat.
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I'm running a 2/3 ratio of mix/epoxy. I think I need to go closer to a 1/1 but that seems like a bad idea. It takes so long to mix together that i barely have time to get it out of the bowl. I'm storing and mixing in the house ay 74F. can I mix that filler into the resin before adding the hardener? That seems like a bad idea that will lead to a bad batch of epoxy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:00 am
by pee wee
I assume you're beginning the process by mixing the epoxy resin and hardener in a cup, then adding the filler(s) and mixing it to consistency. To keep things from heating up and losing control, I've found dumping the mixed epoxy out in something wide like a paint roller tray liner and then adding the filler lets me get it mixed up without cooking off in the pot.
If you're already doing that, then I'd switch to a slower hardener or put the epoxy jugs on ice.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:41 am
by Jaysen
Well... I'm not sure there is a slower hardener than "slow". ;)

I haven't really thought about using a "big tray" for mixing the filler into the epoxy. Not sure how I'd do that but a run to the store is always an option. I might try it with a 10" paper plate. That should hold 6oz of epoxy...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:01 am
by Cracker Larry
I always do the mixing in a cup then immediately pour it out on the hull and start spreading. Just get is spread thin quick and you'll have a lot more working time with it.

It's looking good. Those love bugs sand right off :lol: They have moved in thick here too.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:38 am
by pee wee
Jaysen wrote:I haven't really thought about using a "big tray" for mixing the filler into the epoxy. Not sure how I'd do that but a run to the store is always an option. I might try it with a 10" paper plate. That should hold 6oz of epoxy...
I'm sure there are better choices, but the thin disposable paint tray liners are cheap and can be reused, and the hardened epoxy pops out pretty easily. Really, any larger wide flat bottomed surface will do, but a paper plate may be a little too small. Cover a piece of cardboard with plastic packing tape and place it on a level surface . . pie tin . . old big tupperware . . look around and you may already have it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:02 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen do you have the wide cloth on the bottom yet? If not I would not be too picky about filling and fairing yet. Just get it smooth enough to prevent bubbles on the next layer. Just my 2 cents worth :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:33 pm
by Jaysen
This is all "prep" for "the big blanket". There were some really big "I hope CL doesn't see this" sections, particularly in the bow, that I defiantly need to address. There's also the areas were i started the glass and the weave is angry. And there's the "WHY THE HELL DID I USE AN ANGLE GRINDER WITH A 40g FLAP DISK?!?!?" stuff. And that's not even talking about the random pits and such.

I'm looking at this as practice for the real deal. Prep for the prep to get "Fighting Lady Yellow" and "Graphite Black" on there (to be scraped off about 30 minutes after I put the registration # on the hull). She may end up ugly but I think I want to try to find something between "CL showroom" and "Will it actually float?" for finish quality.

:)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:34 pm
by terrulian
You're doing fine. It won't end up ugly.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:45 pm
by Jeff
I agree with Tony, just take your time and your boat will be fine!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:44 pm
by Jaysen
That red stuff sands nice! Too bad it's not well applied.

Lots of dips and still some big weave. Got a rough sanding done tonight. Tomorrow should be next fairing (maybe at lunch) and more sanding. Next coat of red gloop should fill ALL the tape and get me 95% there on bow.

I may have a problem with the radius of all the joints. Not too worried about that yet.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:07 pm
by Jeff
Glad you like the Quick Fair!! Really good stuff!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:24 am
by Jaysen
FINALLY have time for Lil Bit.

Post hurricane moved it back to the original shop space. Didn't put up the roof. Covered in dew when I went out to start prep for more fairing. I've pretty beads over most of the hull but there there are spots with no beads. Looks like I sanded through the epoxy. Now I've got wet ply. I have to assume it pretty wet since she's been uncovered for two weeks. What's the normal waiting period for her to dry out?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:40 am
by Jaysen
Any suggestions on how long to wait before starting the "seal and glass" process again?

Don't want to lock the water in there...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:30 am
by terrulian
I'm not the guy to answer this; there are more knowledgeable guys here. But it is going to depend on temperature and humidity and how wet the wood was, so there won't be a fixed time. I'm going to say I would use a hair dryer or heat gun on it, perhaps a few days running totaling at least a week...but that is me, and so wait for a more experienced dude. I just didn't want you to feel ignored. Perhaps post this again in the "core materials" section of the board.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:43 pm
by Fuzz
So what did you come up with? I enjoy your updates and this wet wood thing is holding up progress :x

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:07 pm
by pee wee
I doubt anybody else is going to be able to tell you when that plywood is dry. If you know anybody you can borrow a wood moisture meter from, that is the most sure way to know when it's dry enough. It may not have-absorbed much, then again . . . :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:39 pm
by Cracker Larry
It should be fine by now. We haven't had a drop of rain since the hurricane. Clear, sunny and warm for the last 3+ weeks.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:08 pm
by Jaysen
She was inside for the blow. This was just several days of dew. I've honestly been too busy with a new job to do more than mumble about my lack of progress. I did take a look at it about 5am in the dark. No moisture so my cover is doing the job.

A moisture meter is unlikely to show up for this little work boat. I'm going to say "low humidity and CL approval is good enough!" I should have plenary of time this weekend (barring a just whispered suggestion of an opportunity to hurl all my meals for the last month at the fish).

I'm thinking a bit of fairing or wood glue thinkened epoxy in the weave and low spots then then set the glass on it. As close to wet on wet as I can get at this point. Just needs the "CL stamp of approval" ;-)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:23 pm
by Jaysen
Ok. Bottom is glassed!

No pics of early steps.

Made sure glass still fit. Rolled up aft. Covered with 12oz slow epoxy. Unrolled and pressed glass into it. Rolled up fore and spread another 12oz epoxy. Unrolled glass and pressed it into epoxy. That gets us to...

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Realized that I had just about FOREVER with the slow hardener and started mixing 24oz. 1.5 gallons of resin later and we have ...

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I have WAY too much epoxy on there but it's my first time and I'm ok with that. Will have a ton of sanding and fairing to address som dumb ass things but I'm ok with that too.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:15 pm
by terrulian
looks good from here.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:35 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, it looks good!! Get us some closer in photos tomorrow!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:39 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks T. I'm having difficulty not going out there and poking at it to see how it's setting up.

I don't know Jeff. There some real amateur nightmares in there. Especially the transom overlap corners at "keel" and chines. I didn't do a good job with reliving the corners.

Just thinking ahead to next steps. After I clean up the "dumb ass does fiberglass" issues, do I fill the bottom weave then carbon coat or use the carbon to fill it?

Still need to figure out where I'm stopping the carbon. I want to go a bit higher than just the bottom since I know I will be running the side against oysters regularly (hence the glass halfway up the side).

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:14 pm
by terrulian
By "carbon" do you mean graphite/epoxy coat? If so, you need to do all your fairing first with goop like Quick Fair. You don't want to be sanding the graphite.

As far as clean work goes, I didn't do well particularly around the aft end of the skeg. I wanted it strong and there's quite a bit of biax overlap because of the joining of surfaces so it's pretty danged fugly:

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But after fairing and graphite:

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Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:20 pm
by Jeff
Beautiful job Tony!! Jaysen, listen to Tony.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:42 pm
by Jaysen
I didn't put the skeg on yet. My problem was the overlap of the 12oz cloth in the corners. Lots of lumps that will need to be ground out and the ends of the cloth got all wadded up. I'll be pulling CL "tool of destruction" out and grinding a LOT of the transom edges down. I guess I'll post that and get the chastisement I deserve.

As to my skeg plan ... I thought it would be simpler to use 6oz tape to tie it into the bottom. I'm actually thinking that I need to flip and do the inside before I do the skeg. Only thing is that would reduce the epoxy bond. Thoughts?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:44 pm
by peter-curacao
terrulian wrote:
But after fairing and graphite:

Image
Just flawless, excellent job sir 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:12 pm
by terrulian
Only thing is that would reduce the epoxy bond.
Not sure what you mean by this.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:17 pm
by Jaysen
After full cure the expo you to epoxy bond is mechanical. Before full cure it is chemically linked. The science hurt my head but that's the way I understood it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:16 pm
by terrulian
Yes, right. So when we can we like to work "wet on wet" which means that you have to apply the next layer of tape while the epoxy is still "green" as a lot of people say, maybe right away up to an hour or even a day or so depending on the speed of the hardener and the temperature. But that is often not possible so if you wait for a complete cure, which is probably going to be overnight, you sand and then continue. If you're using some types of epoxy but not the kind Bateau sells you may have to wipe with water and a Scotch Guard pad to remove the amine blush. But although the chemical bond is better, it's not like the mechanical bond is weak. So I wouldn't put myself through a lot of stress over the difference.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:14 am
by Fuzz
Jaysen, Tony is correct but if you want to sleep easier make up a test piece like you plan to do your glass and then do a peel test. I think you will be pleased with the result.
Glad to see you back at it. I was getting worried things had stalled. Not like it has never happened to any of us :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:15 am
by Jaysen
Things did stall, but more because of bad planning than anything. Unplanned work trips, death of very aged relative (she was 100+ so it wasn't traumatic), hurricane, and a large promotion/new job demanding 16hr days.

I think the plan for skeg is going to be "wait". I'm also going to wait on the exterior hull finish. I'll grind/sand the mess from yesterday, flip and get back on track with frames and tape.

That brings me to another "hmmm" moment. I only have 2 frames in and was planning to pull them out for better placement before taping. Should I pull them, lay inner hull tape, any inner hull fg, then tape the frames in? That would allow me to have one piece hull seams as well reduced "dumb ass does fiberglass" corners.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:45 am
by Cracker Larry
Should I pull them, lay inner hull tape, any inner hull fg, then tape the frames in? That would allow me to have one piece hull seams as well reduced "dumb ass does fiberglass" corners.
Yes. I always do it that way.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:00 am
by Jaysen
Ask and ye shall be horrified.

In my defense this is my first time working with glass. I've no idea how "right" works other than the great advice here. I had the right concept just really reall poor execution.

Here are the nasty transom issues. Ignore the wildlife. They added themselves some time last night.
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100% of that is bad cuts in the corners. It wasn't laying flat enough and got worse the more I tried to fix it. I also had a lot of the thread that holds it together come out. Then the edges of the fabric unraveled a bit and ... well ... I have an angle grinder.

I'm actually happy with the bow. The first one shows the "bad" part where I have some edges that didn't lay flat. The rest are showing the overlap. The red lines are the cut lines. I have a lot of overlap to help protect during beaching and when in the creeks at low. The extra was used to "pull" the fabric around the edge of the ply and give me a solid adhesion all the way to the edge.
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This shows the "runs" from drying. That was think but smooth when I left it at dark. Way. Too. Much. Epoxy. On the plus side, I'm certain she's sealed. :wink:
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While I know it could be better I'm very happy with the results. Hard as a rock by 7a so no bad mixes. No voids that I could see. Nothing that requires taking it down to wood. All livable rookie mistakes.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:42 am
by Jaysen
Cracker Larry wrote: Yes. I always do it that way.
Other than my plan to flip before paint, I'm doing my darndest to follow the CL build plan. Maybe I should reathink the early flip.

CL, if I decided to unchange my mind and continued with plan to finish outer hull all the way through paint I'd need to attach skeg now. Do you use the screws or just thickened glue and tape? Or am I over thinking this?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:05 am
by Cracker Larry
CL, if I decided to unchange my mind and continued with plan to finish outer hull all the way through paint I'd need to attach skeg now. Do you use the screws or just thickened glue and tape? Or am I over thinking this?
Yes, I would attach the skeg after the hull is glassed. Glued and taped. No screws, except maybe some temporary ones to hold it until the epoxy sets, then remove the screws and fill the holes. You could use weights to hold it down too. I would graphite the bottom and fair the sides and get the first couple coats of primer on them. Then flip. No need to finish paint them yet, you'll just mess it up while working on the inside and have to paint it again.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:11 pm
by terrulian
Attaching the skeg is a bit of a puzzle even if you do use screws. It's very important that it is centered and straight, as it of course affects the tracking of the boat.
Following others, I clamped a centered and squared upright strut to the transom, and then to that, I clamped a fore-and-aft stabilizer aside the skeg, which held it in place while the epoxy glue between the skeg and hull cured. The forward end of the skeg is skinny so this stabilizer made certain that it didn't veer off to one side or another when it tapered. The wax paper was used to make sure that this rig didn't become a permanent part of the boat! 8O
Image

After the goop kicked, it was simple to remove all this and then proceed to glass the skeg in place.
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:47 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks T. I was just thinking about all that. How much shaping did you do on the skeg before you installed it? I was planning a small round over with the router and shaping using epoxy. I'm not planning a performance craft and would prefer to spend the real work for the dagger and rudder.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:03 pm
by terrulian
Yes, the skeg was just rounded over as you suggest. Later, after seeing how much damage it sustained on our beaches here, which are mostly mud and small, sharp rocks, I added a bronze runner.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:19 pm
by Fuzz
Got to ask. Either the glass job is not really that bad or...........................you just posted thumbnail pictures so we do not see it?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:56 pm
by Jaysen
Those are full res. I'd say the "nominal" height of the fg edge at the transom is 1/8". That's from the wadded edges that didn't fold and lay down nice nice. On the sides is < 1/16" and more of a smooth fade. On the bow there are a few bad spots but mostly it is just spikes that didn't lay down. In the mid sections there are "swollen hills" where the binding threads got pulled out letting the glass float a bit. The corners are just wads of glass that need to be cut down. They looked like fungal growth.

If those are normal then ok. Seems a bit worse compared to what I've seen in the forums.

Did put the angle grinder to the corners. That mess is gone. Just need some fairing to fill to level and done there.

Rest of transom, bow overlap and sides are a problem. The top of the epoxy is hard but once you get through the surface it gums up. I think this is slow hardener in the cold and not a mix problem. I do have bugs completely encased in the epoxy. That will be fun. Didn't get much done but I'm happy with where it is. Thought about starting skeg but realized I'll need to bring it inside and I need to prep the mounting point first (back to sanding). Almost out of sand paper so stopping now is probably smart. I'll trim the extra glass off and take some pics.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:24 pm
by Jaysen
Just a little sanding/grinder and trimming

These are the transom. Hard to show the lumps well. It's a mess but I said that already.
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And the embedded bugs ...
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You can see the "ridge" really well on the left and there is one on the center. Have these on both sides.
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And the bow trimmed with the worst of the glass mess ground down a bit. The last one shows the glass thickness which is what I was going for.
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And I managed to christen her with blood. Apparently there are sharp edges on the ply still.
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Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:27 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote:Got to ask. Either the glass job is not really that bad or...........................you just posted thumbnail pictures so we do not see it?
Ah. I think I know what you are seeing.

Try clicking on the image. I'm using the forum tags and I think is embeds thumbnails but links to the full image.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:56 pm
by terrulian
There's a better way to do that. Right click on the full sized image and select "copy image address". Then in your post, click the "Img" button at the top of the text field and paste that address in.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:13 pm
by Jaysen
T I think that was the old gallery. I'm using the new one and the BB code tags. No real option for full size that I saw.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:00 am
by Fuzz
About due for a "Lil Bit" update I think :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:54 am
by Jeff
I agree Fuzz!! Jaysen, update with a few photo's??? Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:43 am
by Jaysen
Well, I have this condition called "married". It's a condition that is much better if you can keep it prefixed with "happily".

Mrs works in retail (why she wants to work there i just don't know, it's not like she NEEDS to work) which gets very very busy this time of year. She had the weekend off and demanded that I spend it with her. Let me just suggest that I was much happier with the outcome following her suggestion than I could have been with Lil Bit. Read into that all you want.

That said I'll tell you what I'm thankful for this Thanksgiving weekend... I'm thankful that my wife volunteered to work the entire time. Lil Bit work will start noon tomorrow. Sanding, swearing, fairing swearing, sanding... That's the order of business till maybe Friday evening. Hoping to get up to the point of getting the graphite on her Sat and Sun. Hoping.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:23 am
by Cracker Larry
But at least you won't be sweating. Seems like I mess up the timing on all my builds and always find myself fairing in the summer :help:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:25 pm
by Jaysen
I've been told prep is the most important part of everything. So t-day meal before Mrs left for work...

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Then the most important boat work prep completed.
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Let the sanding begin!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:47 pm
by Jaysen
2hrs of sanding and one flask of rum later here's where we are.

The bow tuned out nice. Most of the texture there is just low spots in the weave.
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The sides are the same. The areas where the glass does not go all the way to the top is a bit rough but there's no good way to sand it down. Plan is to just fill with fairing.
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The transom is ... well it is what it is. Lots of fill going in here.
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And I've thought of a problem. I still have to cut out the dagger board slot. Then glass the box to the bottom. If I put the graphite on now won't that be problematic? The other part of that is that I can't get the box located until I get the inside frames in.

Does that seem right?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:52 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen it seems to me like you will have less fairing to do if you use some scrap glass and fill in where it is missing on the sides. It will add a little weight but not that much at this point. Maybe some of the others will chime in as say if this is a good idea or not.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:37 am
by WouldWork
Fairing will get it there, so will more glass as Fuzz suggested. It's gonna be strong enough anyway so just see how you go sanding and fairing. As for the weave, a few coats of resin and sanding and that'll fill up no worries.

As for your daggerboard trunk, I can't remember if it's in the instructions or I read it on the forum but it's easy to do. Put your mid seat frame in and sit the trunk in place on the inside. Mark out the four corners where the trunk sits on the floor of the hull with a pencil then drill 4 small holes at the marks. Flip the boat over and join the dots with a pencil giving you a rectangle that you simply cut out with a jig saw.

Then clamp your trunk in place and mark the protruding bit flush with the bottom of the hull. Take it out again and cut it to size. Then tab it in place and hey presto it's in.

I wouldn't finish the bottom until it's glued and glassed in place, so the bottom is finished and ready for finishing coats or whatever you're using.

Don't worry about the messy glass or resin, it only means you have more work to do getting it to the finish you want, it won't effect performance or strength. Having said that, when you're completely jack of sanding and fairing it, you'll become more mindful of drips and blobs for future work.

Hope that helps, it's looking good mate.

Take care

Cam.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:07 am
by Jaysen
Thanks Cam/Fuzz.

On the messy sides... I've decided (or rather the mrs decided for me) that they will get some sanding and a little bit of fairing but will not be "fixed" completely. current plan is to just give everything a couple coats of fairing to fill things and call it done. I will take time to clean up everything that is "in the water" though. Maybe she'll get all cleaned up when I redo the exterior again (I figure 2-3yrs will be the life time since she's getting dragged over every hard surface there is out here).

Cam,

Thanks for confirming the "hold off" on the bottom finish. I guess I'm not even going to other working on the fairing until I get the dagger board box in. I was starting to wonder how I was going to merge the daggerboard tab/glass into the graphite when I realized "hey stupid, maybe you should do that first".

Did you do anything for water passage between compartments? I didn't see anything in your build, but I'm going to have a very wet boat and would prefer to have all the water flow toward which ever end is low so I can pump it out with a manual pump. I'm actually thinking I need to make a slatted floor but I'm not close to really thinking about that yet. Maybe Tony has a comment there too.

When did you tag the skeg in? I'm looking at my plan to keep the hull at working hight and it would much easier to get it just before I resume exterior work. I'm thinking I'd leave the aft seat off until skeg is firmly attached (still not 100% on my plans for that area). And yes, I'm a bit out of order from the provided build notes... Bad Jaysen! BAD!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:26 am
by terrulian
With regard to limber holes see my comment on the new thread you created on this topic.
As to a slatted floor, once again I considered this as well and decided against it. It looks really great and keeps your sea bag from sitting in a puddle but makes bailing, by whatever method you use, very difficult. Plus, if you're like me, you are definitely going to drop your keys/energy bar wrappers/beer can openers/fish hook/used condoms/flask cap/picture of your mom between the slats and have to awkwardly fish them out. 8O

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:40 am
by Jaysen
The beer bottle opener is the only one that really bothers me in your list. And why would you WANT the top to your flask? "Hey look, I have to drink it all now! Gee darn!" :)

My floors are more to keep the boss lady out of the muck, and to provide me a place to have dry storage away from the gear. If I build the floors they will provide a sleeping berth when pulled up and set across the seats. While I can't really pitch a tent for over night trips, I can use Lil Bit as a bed. There was another build thread where someone did that in Tennessee. I'm stealing the idea to make multi day trips possible. They used solid panels but I'd like to make them more usable if I can.

We can keep the limber hole discussion on the other thread. I already answered there.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:24 pm
by Jaysen
She's getting heavy! Almost needed help getting her off the saw horses. Managed with only minor swearing.

Flipped, lifted a little and temp frames removed...

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Looks like I have a rookie issues on the port bow. It is much "flatter" than the starboard. I'm thinking that it will push out with rubrail and seat install, but...

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Next on my list:
LUNCH!
Cut tape for seams.
Give the interior a quick sand, sweep and coat of epoxy to seal it up
Sleep
Fillets and tape for main hull.
Measure and mark locations for frames.
Make cover from scrap tarp/plastic

I doubt I'll get to frame installation before I have to leave town Sunday AM.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:52 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, much progress made!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:20 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks Jeff. She'll definitely be the work boat example but she'll float.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:20 pm
by Jaysen
Post lunch progress...

Sand with 50grit to knock down the epoxy that "squirted" through the stitch holes. That reveled a little bit of water stain even though she was upside down when out in the elements.
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24oz of epoxy finished of my first 3gal epoxy kit (almost... a bit of resin left which shows how forgiving of mix errors the Bateau brand is).
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The light spots in the puzzle joint are "stupid grinder tricks" There is glass on both sides, PLUS 12oz fabric on the exterior bottom. once I get the rub rail on the ... what part is that? ... there will be no way for that sucker to cause problems.
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I did use a chip brush to push a bunch of epoxy into the transom and each panel seam to ensure I sealed the end grain. I'll have to make sure I get a pile of glue in around the transom (although there is enough glass there to keep it together for a long time). Tomorrow is fillet and tape. I opted not the cut tape today since the seal coat should be dry enough tomorrow to make it pretty easy. Tape plan is
1. chine seams (angle cut at bow, stop at transom)
2. keel seam (end to end in one piece
3. Transom (4 pieces with overlap on transom side)

Should be very doable in the time I have.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:26 pm
by Jeff
Again, really good progress Jaysen!! You may call her a work boat but she is really starting to like nice now!! How is your son doing, kinda getting use to it by now?? Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:46 pm
by Jaysen
A little history... way back in the 90s I drove a BMW... since that time I've lusted for one. Joshua's signing bonus hits and he starts looking for his first car. Asks around for help, asks mom and dad about things he's too embarrassed to talk to his sergeant about. Finds a car for sale but his chief warrant officer (who gave him a deadline to have wheels) and says "if it's bad he can't complain about me being late due to car issues". Has it all checked out, plops his $4k down and sends a text "I bought a car". He follows that with an image of a BMW key.

That seems to be how it is going for him. He has a lot of growing up to do to stop taking things personally and he knows it. We let him vent to us and then he mans up and does his job. He seems to be getting the kind of attention he needs and may get out of the role he is in (which he hates) and into the actual intel analyst stuff he really wants to do. It seems his plan to work all the holidays till March and "step forward" for all the crap work (guard duty, weekend shifts, shredding paper) has gotten him pegged "team player". We always said he was a good boy, now he's proving it.

Which is all to say "he is doing great and we are very proud of him". Thanks for asking :)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:03 pm
by WouldWork
Jayesn,

Yes, on the skeg before aft seat. I actualy used a screw from the inside through into the skeg to hold if flatter against the hull for tabbing it on. Couldn't have done that with the aft seat in, and it's hard to balance bricks or weights on the skeg to get it to sit flat. Lol

Your seat frames, mast partner and rubrails will help get your shape back. My hull isn't glassed so it still had some flex but yours should still move a bit to get her in shape.

And finally, no I didn't put any holes in my frames for water flow. I can't remember why, perhaps I just forgot.

Cam.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:02 pm
by Jaysen
What a mess. If Bateau ever creates a "disclaim all knowledge" I will be the top of that list...

Measured tape. Measured it twice. Cut it. Mixed epoxy for fillets. Transom goes nice. Mix new batch for starboard chine... goes ok. Batch for keel seam... a bit to thick. Port chine... I swear I actually put wood flour in it, but you couldn't tell by the way it ran all over the dang hull. I did my best to scrape it all down to the bottom seam where it just kind of leveled the low spots and mixed a new batch. Son of a bitch. Too thick. Used that to build up a bit in the bow. Third time was the charm. It was warm so I gave it some time to set a bit and started to set the tape. Damned stuff starts unraveling at the edges. These are the binding threads... I tried cutting them, pulling them, crying in a fetal position in the sand. I STILL HAVE THEM ALL OVER THE DAMNED PLACE. I give up and press them into the fillets. The chines are 3" short. I'm suddenly thankful for the 5 layers of tape and 2 layers of fabric I put on the outside of the bow. I get everything else laid in and Every. Single. One. is shedding binding threads like a husky in May. Whip out the knife and cut threads. Managed to pull both chines completely off, which being the first ones on pulled the rest of the tape off. Gave up on that a second time! Get the tape back on the fillets. I mix 24oz of straight epoxy. Set the tub in the hull. Turn around to pick up my brush and hear something rolling around. The tub tipped over and dumped the entire batch. Grabbed a roller thinking I'll just roll it out like I did on the cloth. Want to know what happens when you have those stupid threads all over the place and you try to roll epoxy? You pull all the damn tape up. At this point there was swearing. Much swearing. I started to wonder if I had to much to drink and I realized "Hey stupid, you didn't make a a drink" (this is the single biggest failure of the whole day!). So much for that excuse. I eventually untangled all the tape and got laid back down for the THIRD time. Used the brush to get that 24oz moved about. Needed more. Managed not to spill the second batch. Or the third. 72oz of epoxy and I still had one chine left. I can't figure out where all the epoxy went. There weren't any pools in the hull. Nothing dripped underneath. I had It all primed last night. At this point I decided to take the pictures below. I was hoping I'd see the giant pool of missing epoxy but ... nope. I mixed 8oz (because I was out of containers to mix more) and managed to finish the last chine with that. Same method, but it didn't take as much. I think that was more due to there being more epoxy on that chine/tape from all the previous screw ups. By this time is was dark so I have no photos of the finished tape. I leave for the airport before sunrise tomorrow so no photos of the horror until I get back next weekend.

I swear to God this is exactly what happened. I'm just about ready to get some gasoline and matches to fix the problem. Not sure if they are for the boat or for me. Good thing I'm not going to be here for a few days. Nothing rash will be done. And I keep telling myself "self, this is normal learning curve crap". Then I'll accidentally click on a pic of the flyer and start looking for my lighter. Why do we do this to ourselves?

Here are the only pics of the horror show...
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Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:38 pm
by terrulian
Dude, don't freak. No worries at all! This is what the biax does for normal humans and although there are builders on this list who don't fall into that category, yours truly ain't one of them. The biax comes out rough and no matter what, the weave has to be filled, so no big deal to fair out those extra threads on the edges. I'm sure my taping didn't look any better but it makes NO difference in terms of strength, and is only a concern for pathologically neat personalities. Don't become one!! 8O You may have used too much epoxy but the tape looks pretty good to me so the only downside there is a few bucks wasted and maybe a couple of ounces of extra weight on the boat. Hey, I'm putting more than that on my own body every day this holiday season, and I have not figured a way for that to not add to the boat's displacement!!
Build on, no problem! :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:25 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, I fully agree with with Tony!! Take a step back, take a break!!! You are fine and Lil Bit will be just fine as well!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:46 pm
by Jaysen
Yeah. I know. Just so frustrating in the moment. I was laughing about it all when telling the wife about it. Did head out with a flashlight and in the dim lighting it does look "not too bad". Definitely needs some 1:1 time with a sander.

What is the deal with the binder threads? Is there some what to NOT have them come out? I find that the glass gets "thick" if the edges fray too much and that just adds sanding time.

And is there some way to tell how much epoxy I should have used for 40ft to 6oz tape?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:12 pm
by narfi
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the designer estimates an amateur will get about 50/50 glass to resin ratio.

So 6oz cloth is 6oz per square yard. Your tape is 6" wide?

.5(width) * 40 (length) = 20 square feet
20/9 = 2.222 sq yards

6oz cloth * 2.222 sq yards = 13.3 ounces of cloth.

Which means you should have about 13.3 ounces (weight) of resin as well on 'average' my guess is a bit more from extra soaking into the wood and coating a little past the edges of the tape.

I don't know what the weight of resin is to convert that to a fluid measurement, but it gives a rough idea.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:22 pm
by jacquesmm
Epoxy is about 7.5 lbs per gallon.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:36 pm
by narfi
So if you round your 13.3oz up to a liberal 1lb that gives you 1/7.5ths of a gallon.

1/7.5 = .1333 gallons of epoxy
.1333 * 128oz(per gallon) = 17 oz

so to finish the rough estimate based on 6oz tape 6" wide and rounding up liberally you would use about 17oz (or a little over 1/2 of a qt) of epoxy for 40ft of tape.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:37 pm
by Jaysen
No matter how you stack it something ate way too much epoxy. I still have 1.5 jugs of resin left so I should be ok. If not... I know who to call to get more.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:38 am
by Fuzz
Jaysen you have a way with words :!: I was laughing till tears came reading about your glassing adventure :lol: Do not worry about it. Nobody builds a perfect boat first or even second time out. Well somebody might but it sure as hell is not me. I am busy now fixing screw ups from years ago. As for your taping problems............I have seen this happen with the 6oz tape. The 12oz seems to hold together better and not have that problem. Not sure if that helps or not at this point.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:26 am
by WouldWork
Jaysen I think it's unwritten law that until you've made your boatbuilding buddies laugh at something you've done, you're not a true boatbuilder. Fuzz said he had tears laughing so your stuff-up has elevated you to a new level of ability and respect amongst your peers - as long as you don't throw in the towel!!

And I agree with Fuzz - reading your angry rant was brilliant! I could feel your pain and frustration, and like a good book I was immersed in it, enjoying the read but changing between chuckles and sympathy. Thanks for a good read! And as always it aint the end of the world, just another good story on the way to having an awesome boat one day soon.

Sally Forth my friend.

Cam.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:13 am
by topwater
Welcome to boat building :!: Absolutely nothing there that has not happened to every one of us at some point.
Don't worry about the threads that's why they make sandpaper. Like Cracker Larry always said " you don't build
boats to shape you sand them to shape" . Reading that post brought back every F up that happened to me ,
not funny when they happen but brings a smile to my face now . It's all good build on :!:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:21 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks guys. Sitting here in Atlanta with all the holiday travelers. I need to have a long conversation with the actual work boss about scheduling team meetings...

I appreciate the kind words about the writing. I have an uncle who is an amazing storyteller. He set me on to Sam Clemens (Mark twain) as a kid. I do enjoy a good story and try to tell them the way I'd like to hear them.

That said, there isn't any real exaggeration there. Well maybe the crying part. I put that tape on 4 times if you count the original measuring and fit. I'm anxious to see where all the epoxy wound up. It makes no sense to me. I'm sure it will be obvious once I see it with a cool head.

After the flip this weekend I'm getting close to the "too heavy for one person" weight zone. Hopefully I won't exceed the capacity of the cheap cart I bought.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:50 pm
by Jaysen
Took a few minutes to look at Lil Bit before the sun completely vanished. There are a few puddles in the bottom of the V. Not enough to really account for all the epoxy I poured but enough to make me less concerned. Tape looks ok and no obvious areas where there are bubbles. Not enough light for pics to that will have to wait for tomorrow.

Current activity plan:
1. Sand
2. Sand
3. Sand
4. Swear
5. Sand
6. Sand
7. Mark up for frames, step and partner.
8. Sand
9. Repeat 7 because an idiot sanded off the marks.

That should cover Saturday. Sunday will be frames up to tape. Measure, tack, glue, fillets, tape. Sanding will wait till next day off.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:39 pm
by Jeff
Great thread Jaysen!! Always fun to read!! Have a nice weekend!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:19 pm
by Jaysen
Have some pics to post later. Let's just say that I had the plan right for today. Let's also say that there is no way to make working on the inside of the hull comfortable without a significant amount of structure.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:04 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, if you have a minute, would you review the thread called Canoe Project and provide Browndog some assistance with his photos? Thank you in advance!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:58 pm
by Jaysen
Ok, here we go.

These are the images before sanding. You can see the pooling in the bottom of the boat. Not really an issue to me. Actually makes the mast step easier since I had to fill it anyway.
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There are also some pools in the transom area. All that will be under the aft seat so not real issue.
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The side to transom joint made be a little uncomfortable. I ran the tape up and over just to make sure I had plenty of support. Didn't need it. You will se this is all removed in the sanded pics. There were a few air pockets here too. also addressed with 50grit...
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This is the one area were I was a but worried about getting enough epoxy in the tape. There are 4 layers of tape in the very bottom of the V. Looked good. The lightness is really just the glass not air.
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Remember that plan for today? sanding, swearing and crying... all accomplished.
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I did have a minor revelation... if it is under a seat, I really don't need to sand it IF the seat is closed and filled with foam. Seems obvious, but ... I'm slow. I did give it all a quick sand but did not spend much time on the under seat sections. I do have some pretty big texture on the sides. it is just too steep for the epoxy to stay put. Ideas?
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And here's the one area that I found voids... in the fillet and in the tape. I all exposed. Will get filled tomorrow.
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Rum consumption has started. Hoping to get the spine to shut up with adequate consumption of El Dorado 15. If that doesn't get it, I'll feed it some Capt M, private. Failing that, the neighbors sent me a few bottle of unknown character that the back will be requested to entertain. Hopefully the Mrs will just laugh at my my inebriated self when she gets in tonight. If not, I'll hand her the sander and point to a seam. See if she laughs after that!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:21 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen if you do get SWMBO to run a sander we are going to need pictures :lol:
If you do get somebody to do the sanding please share your secret :!: For some strange reason nobody wanted any part of my last sanding job :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:31 pm
by Jaysen
I didn't see this anywhere so I thought I'd put up a quick "how to mark straight lines for installing your frames". I'm using a simple "one point" laser level I picked up from Home Depot back in the 90s. Nothing fancy or "automatic".

Not recorded here is getting the boat level. Start with the base on which you set the boat. In my case some 2x4. using shims I was able to level them over their length. Then level it the hull on the base. In my case, make the bottom at transom 2'over the 2x4 (keg height). with the hull resting on the 2x4. Stabilize as needed.

Now for the actual marking. In my case everything is measured from the bow. While not perfect I simply ran a tape measure from bow to stern and marked the hull. That's just to get the starting point. At your first point, set up the tripod. In my case I use a bubble level to get the leg hight correct. Get the center of the tripod as close dead center of the V. Do your best to get the front of the laser where the 90° split will hit your mark.
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Verify that you are pointing center of V buy rotating the head till your point is dead on. Lock the head to prevent the head from moving out of alignment.
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The next pick doesn't show this well, install the 90° splitter, point it down and pull your tape from the measuring point and see how far off you are. move the laser, not the tripod, till you are at the right place. Now mark the hull by rotating the splitter until you have as many marks as you need.
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That's it. Repeat for each frame. Or whatever you happen to need to mark. A few modifications and you can use this for marking cleat locations or anything else without needing to resort to a trig table.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:18 pm
by Jaysen
OK... I have a problem.

Marked my frames per the above method. The stern is dead on. Almost thinking I messed something up it fits so well. On the other hand I have have this to deal with on the bow and mid frame...
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I think I can pull the sides in to the meed the frame, but the bottom fitting between the chines isn't showing any give. The frames are dead on 3, 6, 10 per the plans. Ideas?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:42 pm
by Fuzz
From the pictures the sides look very fair to me. In fact that is what stood out to me when I looked at your post yesterday. If that is the case I would trim the frames to fit. with all the glass in the chine area you will need to trim that area either way. I would round of the points at the chine so there is no hard spot there. All that being said if someone who has built a boat like yours chimes in they could know a lot more than me :D Keep it up, boats looking good.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:51 pm
by Jaysen
I was actually thinking about putting a 1.5" - 2" limber in each of the corners of the mid. I have a "mast step drain" in the front but could easily do the same for that then fill with putty and glass over it. Everything "looks" right to me including what I thought was a flat spot on the forward bow (same shape as port once measured). I'm just not real keen on recutting all the precut parts without smarter people weighing in (among which I count you).

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:00 pm
by Fuzz
I know that the glass build up in the keel and chine area will cause almost every one to trim the bottom of the frames. It is the sides I am not sure about :doh: I just do not want to tell you something and it be wrong :help: You could trim the bottom of one frame and see what it fits like while you are waiting for more informed replies.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:06 pm
by Jaysen
If you look at the bow frame you'll see I already removed much of the V bottom. I think you're onto something with the chine though... If you notice the starboard side is flat from chine up, but after that, everything else is off. Maybe I'll make a cardboard template of how to modify the CNC cut one... Hmm...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:22 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz hit it. Looks like I need to reduce frame by about 1/4" over the chine tape areas. Lading some 60grit on the sander to avoide "dumb grinder tricks".

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:27 pm
by jacquesmm
Start by cutting the chine corners for limber holes, that will bring it down a little bit.
Then trim where it pushes against the hull. Do not trim the top.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:09 pm
by Jaysen
I didn't make limber holes but I did spend time with the 60grit. I have the bow sitting nicely. Mid frame ... I need to measure but it looks like the starboard side is way out.

Jacques, when you say "don't trim the top" I'm assuming you means the tips of the frames. Can you confirm please.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:29 pm
by Jaysen
Scene: Middle aged, empty nester husband and wife sitting at breakfast bar having a eggs and coffee. Man moves foot and gets it caught in a bag of knitting...

Man: What is this? isn't there a better place to put this stuff?
<man bends over to disentangle foot and feels sudden pang of terror>
Wife: Come again?
M: I mean... I ... uh ... the knitting is on my foot.
W: Do you have a problem with that?
M: Well kind of. I ...
W: Good. Do you know where that knitting is supposed to be when I'm not using it?
M: Ummmm....
W: See the oars, bottles of epoxy and stuff, the white sheet of stuff and all those supplies?
M: You mean my boat stuff?
W: No. I mean that stuff that is in MY storage place for MY knitting!
M: No, that's my boat stuff.
W: It goes to the shed or I promise the knitting will be least of your concerns.
M: Yes dear.
<end scene>

This is not a fictional scene. At this point I have cleared out enough space in the shed to do some inside work on the frames, dagger board, rudder, etc, but the hull is going to be outside. I have a heater out there but it isn't doing much to warm things up. I could put the unmixed epoxy parts on the heater (electric oil radiator type) but I'm not sure how that will do for curing. Hopefully I'll get some actual epoxy on later this afternoon.

I do need to figure out how to close up the very large gap on around the mid frame. The port side is clearly bowed to far out. Also need to practice bailing as the last rain storm managed to put a but of water in the hull. At least I know it doesn't leak!

I've already purchased he flowers and chocolate.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:03 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, great story as always!!! Keep them coming!! Hope your son is doing well with his first Christmas in the Army!! Happy holidays, Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:12 pm
by Jaysen
He has volunteered for all the holiday duty shifts. "I'm not going home 'cause you'll put me to work, so I might as well make some points with sergeants." He's clearly smarter than I am (evidence my morning). Seems like he's starting to make some decent acquaintances and has a few invites for holiday meals. We are actually thinking he's winning at this holiday thing since the Mrs actually has to work both days and I'm working with my offshore team over the holiday as well.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:56 pm
by Jeff
Very good Jaysen!! He is a good soldier!!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:18 am
by Fuzz
Jaysen a few 2x4s and some plastic sheeting would do wonders for keeping in the heat. not sure it would be worth the effert as it will probably warm up there pretty soon. If I wanted to keep on working I would just order some fast hardner and move on.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:59 pm
by Jaysen
I think SWMBO is trying to tell me something. I went out to start boat work and she's standing there with a hammer. My rapid exit (with the jewels protected) to a secure location only seemed to anger her. After several communications from the other side of the tree she confirmed my suspicion that "boat work" today would include much work on things completely unrelated to a boat. I was released from my indentured servitude 3ish and managed to coat one side and the ends of the frames. Once the epoxy kicks I'll flip them and do the other side. Or I'll save it till tomorrow evening. I can't actually get them in the hull until next weekend anyway...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:39 pm
by Jaysen
Frame side two coated.
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The heater is doing a decent job. I'm going to start coating the rest of the pieces you see stacked there. As you can see, there's limited space so I can only do a few at a time. It all needs to get done and now that I have light... might as well give it a few minutes a night.

This weekend I'll get the frames in the hull and get the dagger box made. Next up on my sealing list will be the dagger box parts. Still need to ID my solid parts but I've got enough 1" scrap to make it not much of a concern. I may need to engage other sail version builders for any secrets.

Anyway... progress is progress. Right?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:12 am
by Jaysen
Jeff and the rest of the tutorial team, I think you've missed a very important step in all the documents...

1. This step provides the needed perspective for the any build activity.
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*Warning -- Over use of "perspective" may result in unpredictable results.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:16 am
by Jaysen
Latest "what the fork did I do?" from over on my v12 cnc frame thread...

The bottom panels seem to be bowing outward (concave outside hull, convex inside) as evidenced by the following pics...
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Not sure if this is an issue but I've got an idea that if I put a ratchet strap around the hull to pull the sides into the frame, I can put two pole under it as well to push the bow out of the bottom. Once Jacques or someone chimes in on how big an issue this really is I'll get to gluing. In the meantime I need to clean the inside of the hull out again. That's the problem with the outside shop.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:59 am
by terrulian
Why is the frame standing so proud of the top of the sheer in the second picture?
Also: if you sight down the outside of the hull where the frame is, does the curve of the bottom seem fair?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:09 am
by Jaysen
It's proud because the bottom is pushinght frame up.

Fair is relative. Is the cross section supposed to be concave to the outside. Judging by frame shape tat answer is no. But other than that it is fair. I think.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:13 am
by Jaysen
I just triple checked. If I set the frame edge on the side it is a perfect fit to the chine. But then the far side is off the hull by about 4". It is just the jump in the bottom panels causing that.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:48 pm
by terrulian
I don't want to get ahead of anything Jacques may say, but if the hull is pulled away from the frame, I would suggest you use a line or strap and pull it in so that the frame is touching the hull, and then take pictures like this second one and also one along the side and bottom of the boat. It may be just a matter of forcing things together in the right shape and then holding them there while you tape it up. I do not think it is correct to have the bottom of the hull bowing inward (upward), if that's what you're saying; but forcing the frame into position may bring it into correct form...so, more pictures, please. Don't tape it up until this is sorted out.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:59 pm
by Jaysen
Following Jacques suggestion of "use a straight edge" (duh) it isn't that the bottom is curved wrong but that it is flat. That means the frame is still rocking because it is curved to the original shape.

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Just waiting for his feedback to either force the fit or reshape the frames.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:17 pm
by Jaysen
Not much done today. My excuse it "ran out of supplies". Which is technically true. But the real reason is that I'm an idiot and left that bag in the cart my last trip to Lowes. I'm calling it "Captain M time" and owning that mistake. ;)

I did get some more parts epoxy coated. Dagger board trunk and keg parts. What I mostly did was work on the dagger board. I had preglued it way back when I started Lil it.

I started with marking the 15" from the top to the bottom of the trunk. This does NOT include the top cleat so that ensures only the shaped portion will be in the moving water. Then I marked the 1/3 width point (per the build diagrams) to make sure I profiled things 'close enough'. After the marking was done I used a 1/2" round over all the way around to set my "relief profile" for the shaping.
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In general the goal for profile should be to get parallel lines following the contour you want to keep. It's tricky with ply because you have to deal with variations in the veneer thicknesses, voids, etc. Go slow and keep the sander on low speeds and you can do it decently well. I did not achieve the full profile as I wanted to retain as much thickness as possible since I will be running into thing with a potential for a significant amount of lateral force. I'm happy with the profile.

And that gap is due to bad weighting on the glue up. I'll fill that with thickened epoxy before I glass the dagger.
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Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:17 pm
by Jaysen
Was starting to plan next weekends work and want to start on the rudder assembly. The plans have a simple rudder/tiller and while I like that, I think I need to consider a kick up style rudder. That will let me focus on the dagger and sail when in the shallows and just let the rudder do it's thing. I looked at various plans way back and will start again this week. If anyone has suggestions or things to keep in mind I'd appreciate hearing them.

Thanks.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:33 pm
by terrulian
Someone had a question about leaving their rudder clear. If you do so, I would recommend, as I did to him, glassing it anyway.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:13 pm
by Jaysen
Rudder will be wrapped in 12oz and graphite covered. As will the dagger. Still debating if I tape the edges with bias then use the woven or just do straight woven.

I'm kind of hoping that with the rudder being about to rotate up on impact that it will be a moot point ...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:59 am
by topwater
Jaysen if you are looking for a simple and effective kickup rudder check out the rudder on the goat island skiff.
You would have to scale it down a bit but it would be easy to build. Also you wouldn't have to mess with a pivot
point and hardware.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:15 am
by Jaysen
Thanks topwater.

I looked at the lifting plan. I think it has some benefits in the way of simplicity. I initially dismissed it as it is missing is an automatic action when I run into the oysters or miss a sand/mud bar in the marsh. I do know that I'll be running the dagger less tahn 100% and, if I'm honest, it shouldn't be that big a deal to just match the rudder to the dagger.

I love the fact that you guys get me to rethink my assumptions with just a post.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:56 am
by topwater
If you look close at the design the only thing holding the rudder blade in place is the tension of the bungee cord
that is wrapped around the the cassette portion of the rudder. When you hit something it will slide up . Only
have to have enough tension to hold the blade in place , you should be able to slide it up and down without
too much pressure .

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:44 am
by jacquesmm
That rudder blade system works. It requires a strong "cassette". Cassette = rudder head.
My design shows a more traditional pivoting one which works very well too and swings up instead of jumping out.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:52 am
by Jaysen
Jacques, is there a way for me to see that design?

If I go with the cassette system, I was thinking of using the stock rudder and using 3/8 scrap glues with epoxy to make something like the dagger trunk bit with only one end closed. The closed end would be made with 2x3/8" and 1x1/4" strips 15x3". The checks would be 3/8" 15x9". Once laminated I'd wrap the laminated sides with biax tape.

Would that fit the "strong" definition?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:05 pm
by jacquesmm
It's not my design. I have pictures somewhere but I prefer the pivoting type, that's why I designed her that way.

Image

Type plywood rudder picture in google and you will see many pivoting rudders.

Here is the other type:

Image

If you hit the bottom, the blade jumps out while in my system. it kicks up, a little or a lot but you still have a rudder.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:10 pm
by jacquesmm
BTW, I use the lifting blade on the VG18 and VG20 but not with the shock cord.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:12 pm
by Jaysen
Lissa is the one that originally had me looking at replacing the fixed rudder from the CNC. My thought on that style is that I'll need to
1. figure out the right cut for the existing rudder (remove enough from trailing edge of upper to allow 90° swing (level with bottom of skeg?)
2. make cheeks to sandwich lower portion (does head need taped/clothed)
3. create pivot with over drill/fill/drill on cheeks an lower
4. on lower install some type of wear bushing (pvc pipe?)
5. slightly reduce thickness of lower to ensure free movement of lower between cheeks.
6. use stainless bolt/washer and lock nut (buy 4 to have replacements when salt water kills it)

Would that be the proper thought?

I was thinking on the lifting version that I'd need to have a fixed "keeper" that would prevent a complete disengagement of the rudder. Slotting the upper with a pin at that very top of cassette that would allow the rudder to pivot but not vacate the cassette. Almost a hybrid of the two ideas...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:59 pm
by Jaysen
There's not a lot of pictures as most of the day was spend 'redoing'

This was the first set of "reshaping" the mid frame. It was the really bad one.
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After shaping all the frames I put a few scrap 6'x4"x3/4" temp rub rails and put some ratchet straps on to start pulling the sides in.
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This revealed some need for further refinement of the mid frame. The clamps at the top are to hold the frame "down and in place". The mid frame is under lots of compression thanks to the need to pull the sides in. A bit of time with the sander and the final fit.
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And with that ... let the glue up begin!

Aft frame
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Mid frame nicely fitting as it should. I did compress the side just enough to put some compression into the frame to ensure we have good glue surface contact. That will show up as a very slight flat spot just behind the mid frame on the full hull shots.
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I was running out out of light for photos so here is the bow frame just sitting in the final position. It has a largish gap on the port side, but that filled in nicely with some slightly thinker than ideal glue.
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And even with the low light I was able to get pics of the full hull with glued in frames.
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I'm very happy to see the shape of the hull now. And with the frames in I can really start to get a feel for the size of everything. I'm hoping that the temps will stay high enough for the glue to set up over the next couple days. I figure with all the pull in on the sides I need to let the glue set up a bit more than normal before I remove the straps. I may start to tape up the frames but we have cold weather coming. What's the right action here?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:45 pm
by terrulian
Looking good, Jaysen.
I had a flat spot on the outside of the middle frame on my boat, caused by my making the butt blocks wider than I was supposed to. I used a batten on each side to determine a fair curve and then applied extra glass and filler to achieve it. You don't need to do this but if you don't have a fair hull it will expose itself with glossy paint.

A lot of us have fears of the epoxy letting loose when various tensioners are released, depending on how much force you had to apply. With me the bow was suspect. Although the glue by itself is quite strong, it can happen in extreme cases. So you could leave the straps in place while you tape your joints if you want to be extra careful. It may be just slightly awkward but it looks like you have room. After the epoxy kicks on the tape, the joints will never pop free.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:45 am
by Jaysen
Tony,

The flat spot is only caused by the center strap. It is about 6" long from the mid fram through the strap and bout 2" past the strap. I'm confident it will fair once the strap is removed.

I can tape one complete side of each frame with no issues. I did locate the straps close to the frames to make sure pressure was applied to the frame instead of deforming the hull between frames. I could get about 80% of the strap side of the frame but I think it would require less "sander fix" if I did the second side after removing then straps.

My biggest fear is not glue strength but application issues. Did I starve an area at the top of the frame? Did I miss cleaning a section of dust? Is there a section that isn't quite cured? All paranoia, but I'm not in a huge rush. I have a long holiday weekend and some reasonable planning will have her unstrapped and much closer to complete.

There really isn't much least so do at this point!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:32 am
by Jaysen
Timing success! Took a flash light out this morning and the frames are NOT moving to pressure. We have enough cure for me to stop worrying. I may take some time a lunch to hit a few spots with the sander and then start measuring tape. I think I need to hold of fillet and tape for some warmer, less rain likely days. That or I'll just go for it now, grab another spare tarp and wrap the hull better to prevent rain entry. I do have plenty of small parts to make up so really, I should just focus on that. Just hard to stay focused when then big hurdle of that middle frame is clearly conquered.

I did loosen the middle strap a notch. No flat spot! I'm calling that a win.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:21 am
by terrulian
Great news on all counts, Jaysen. Looks like you have a boat :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:22 pm
by Fuzz
See! anything can be fixed :D Sounds like you are moving forward and any forward movement is good.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:40 pm
by Jaysen
Not quite as easy as metal...

I'm putting off the rudder for now. I need to think it through a lot more. Lots of reasons for each option.

Instead I'm going to get the dagger box, mast step and rub rails figured out. All that is needed to get mast partner figured out and the foam in. I'm sure I'll get the seats in there at some point.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:46 pm
by Jaysen
Well, not making much progress. The wood I need for the dagger box is under Lil Bit. I'm not comfortable moving Lil Bit till the frames are taped. I can't tape the frames until the filler material is dry and reasonably smooth.

I do think I have a rudder plan, but I realize I need to ignore that for now. I need to focus on the rest of the hull interior including mast step, foam, drain/mast tube, seats, and skeg. Plan for the long weekend...
1. Prep all areas to be taped and glue skeg halfs (Friday afternoon)
2. Fillet, tape frames, mast step (Saturday)
3. Build cradle for hull to reclaim wood (Sunday)
4. Seal/assemble dagger trunk, attach skeg (glue and screw), seal seats (Monday).

It's a bit ambitious but should be doable if I remember to restock on mixing bowls.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:12 pm
by Jeff
You are always a well planned builder!! Happy holidays to you and the family!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:59 pm
by jacquesmm
You can always build the very simple fixed rudder as on the plans, use the boat a little bit and see if you need/want a lifting rudder.
The blade can be recycled to make a lifting rudder or a pivoting one.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:03 pm
by Jaysen
The stock rudder is already lamenated. I plan to use it as a donor for whatever plan I land on. Currently planning on a pop up using some ideas stolen from the internet and Lissa description.

6" radius (quarter) on trailing edge with S to leading edge that is just shy of the skeg. Shock cord at the tiller mount for tension on the lower rudder to prevent loss of elasticity due to salt water. Tiller will use notch in trailing edge of upper for "pivot" point and to lock it in place but will be a simple lift off. Cheeks will be 1/4" ply with fiberglass skins. Lower rudder pivot will be 2" PVC using threaded caps to secure in cheeks. Lower will be glassed and graphite coated.

If I go lifting I'll use the blade intact and focus on how to build the cassette properly. Same general tiller plan but modify the cassette to allow for a retention pin to prevent loss of tiller blade. Looking to use a wedge for maintaining blade height. I like the simplicity and it's part of why I'm still not sure which solution I want.

All that said, your plan lets me get in the water faster. If I had half a brain I'd just plan on followIng your suggestion.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:15 pm
by jacquesmm
Keep posting about that rudder but finish the boat first.
The Lissa rudder and daggerboard are experimental: they should pop up when striking the bottom. I discussed them at length with Justin Pipkorn who has a lot of experience with small boats.
I I can state that I also have a lot of experience with running aground, I have a feel for what will break and what will jump up. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:26 pm
by Jaysen
Jacques,

If you recall I'm planning to use the front seat in my V12 to contain floatation foam. I will use PVC from the mast step through the foam and seat that will be aligned with the mast partner to maintain the mast rake angle.

My question is, with the bow frame and seat installed Is the mast partner needed? The frame and seat would create ridgidity in the hull and support the mast. The snotter line would still be used for retaining the mast with the cleat fixed to the mast tube.

I'm not committed to this but I like the idea. If it matters the mast will be made from 1x2 laminated to form a solid core mast. Using router will make it octagonal with the lower section rounded to fit snuggly in the step. I don't plan to completely round the entire mast. (I have more questions on mast and spar but those can wait)

Thanks.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:28 pm
by Jaysen
jacquesmm wrote:Keep posting about that rudder but finish the boat first.
Last three things I will do (in order)
1. Mast
2. Spar
3. Rudder

I will likely have her in the water as a row boat before I get to those three things.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:57 am
by Jaysen
A little ahead of schedule.

Tape cut. A bit too cold for epoxy so I'll fillet and glass later this afternoon.
291

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:21 pm
by Jaysen
Did NOT get as much done as I hoped. My excuses:
1. Wanted to tape "properly"
2. I HATE taping "properly"
3. G D TAPE!!!

Fillets done and everything set up for epoxy
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295

I'm using a brush and trying not to use excessive amount of epoxy. HA! 3oz of mixed only covered about 4' of 6" @ 6oz biax. I. Hate. Tape.

Here is about halfway after 2hours or so.
296

And this is "done" at hour 4.
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298

The light areas are just thick due to overlap. I've checked for bubbles and it seems really good.

I know I still using too much epoxy. I think I need to pay CL to show me where I'm going wrong.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:12 pm
by terrulian
It looks perfectly fine. Perfectly. No worries.
There are people on this forum who are capable of insanely accurate tape work, which, just like yours and mine, will be completely hidden by fairing, and won't be any stronger unless you can measure with lab instruments and maybe not even then.

I just revisited the photos and your work is clearly cleaner than mine, and my boat is solid as a rock and pretty, too.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:40 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks Tony. Im sure the photos hide a lot I'm a bit anxious about the apparent quantity of hand sanding I'll get to do to clean up the ends/overlaps. I'm thinking a dremmel with a large diameter drum would go a long way. That or "man up and sand it!"

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:08 pm
by Fuzz
Dude, stop worrying about it being perfect :P Like Tony said if it can never be seen it will not matter :D For the parts that can be seen a little sanding and fairing will take care of it. I think most of your problems using tape are caused by the 6oz tape. I have only used a little bit of it but I noticed it was much looser than the 12oz and was harder to work with.
Remember this is your first boat and you will get better over time. Now if you really feel like you need some practice fairing and sanding let me know. I got just the thing for you to "practice" on :lol: I would even spring for the plane ticket, just to help out a buddy you know :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:33 pm
by Jaysen
If that plane ticket was summer...

I'm not worried about perfect. The bow and stern frames below the seats look like they were done by a toddler. A drunken toddler. A drunken toddler with a hangover. (Don't asked me how I know what that looks like.) the only areas I actually care about are the foreword side of the stern frame, the aft side of the mid and bow frame. Those also happen to be the parts that are hard to sand thanks to the relationship of the hull curve to the frame. And even then, all I need to to is knock it down enough to reduce the lumpy mattress look (which reduces fairing).

What I'm most frustrated by is the way that tape falls apart while you're epoxy coating it. The binder threads pull out. It moves all around. The glass comes out at the corners. If you sneeze it pulls loops in the middle or walks to the opposite side of the boat and throws a temper tantrum (ok, that may have been me).

I am embracing the "work boat finish" view. But I do want to improve as I go. For example I am almost halfway through my SECOND epoxy kit. That's "bad" no matter how you stack it. While I'd love to do a Peter C level tape job, I know I'm too lazy for that!

On the plus side, now that this tape is in, I don't have that much left before I can get her in the water as a row boat!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:55 am
by terrulian
That tape just acts that way; it's not you. You could buy tape that did not fray at the edges like this http://boatbuildercentral.com/proddetai ... 6oz_2in_50
But Jacques has determined this is stronger for the job. Plus, if you have clear edges to the tape, it doesn't make fairing any easier.
You're fine.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:24 am
by Jaysen
I've seen Jacques comments on woven v biax. I've no intention of using anything else. But I will whine about it incessantly. There isnt much left to tape though.
Seats
Skeg
Breast hook
Knees

And I figured out why I'm being more particular on the interior of the hull. Mrs will see the inside more than the outside. It will also be easier to remove mud, fish and crab guts from a cleanly built interior making it more likely to be seen by the boss lady. At the end of the day a pretty interior to impress the girlfriend is a priority.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:09 am
by narfi
So are you more focused on the Mrs., the boss lady, or the girlfriend?!?!?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:39 am
by topwater
I don't think it really matters they are all apex predators :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:30 am
by Jaysen
And to make it even worse, all the same person!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:40 am
by Jaysen
That tape is still too soft to sand or really cut. Cut out some blocks for the mast step. Should be able to get that in and the cradle well under way. Also removed the straps since they were all untensioned this morning.

Need to figure out how to mark the locations for seat cleats as well as the final plan for mast partner (needed or not). Based on what I see in the plans the front and rear are level with each other. Im thinking use the laser level to shoot a reference line for those two. The mid seat should be easier since the dagger box will set the plane for that seat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:52 pm
by Jaysen
Decently successful day.

Mast step is in. It's a 3x3 pad with lots of thickened epoxy. The epoxy was still tacky from the taping so that will be a good strong bond.
299

And we get into the cradle. I decided that I'd "make it for real" as the long term home. I can move it easily and made sure there is width to the base that will be in contact with sand to prevent sinking. I used "Matthew fence" (board blown off during the storm) so this was $0 cost (Tony will be proud!). I didn't get a lot of construction pics but it should be pretty obvious what I did...

A couple of quick test fittings before the beds are screwed down
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Here it is with out Lil Bit on it.
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And with the boat installed!
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While this location will not be the final resting place of the boat, that cradle should do the trick. I do need to go get some proper screws (dry wall in there for now) to help with corrosion and some carpet for the beds (I think that's what you call them). It's not perfect, but it gets the job done better than landscaping bricks and 2x4.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:55 pm
by Jeff
Looks good Jaysen!! Merry Christmas!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:35 pm
by terrulian
Jaysen...
Looking good. FYI, the term is "bunks".

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:15 pm
by Jaysen
Jaysen wrote:Jacques,

If you recall I'm planning to use the front seat in my V12 to contain floatation foam. I will use PVC from the mast step through the foam and seat that will be aligned with the mast partner to maintain the mast rake angle.

My question is, with the bow frame and seat installed Is the mast partner needed? The frame and seat would create ridgidity in the hull and support the mast. The snotter line would still be used for retaining the mast with the cleat fixed to the mast tube.

I'm not committed to this but I like the idea. If it matters the mast will be made from 1x2 laminated to form a solid core mast. Using router will make it octagonal with the lower section rounded to fit snuggly in the step. I don't plan to completely round the entire mast. (I have more questions on mast and spar but those can wait)

Thanks.
Jacques, did you get a chance to see the above?

I also need your help on the dagger box. The CNC kit has the sides cut per the plan, but it is WAY big compared the the dagger board and the hull.

Should there be a 3/4 gap on the leading AND trailing edge (total 1.5" gap).
308

What is the expected interior width of the box? 1" is what I'm guessing and that will be reduced by glass. Is this correct?

The mid frame is only 9" from hull to seat support. But the dagger box is 15" tall. The plan says "cut a 1' slot in hull" but the box is 1.5" wide. That leaves a large portion of the box above the seat. I cut my box spacers at 11" assuming that I'm trimming the box to fit the hull height. Is this correct?
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310

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:42 am
by Jaysen
Daggerboard truck issue figure out. Short answer, cut bigger hole in hull and trim box to fit.

Still looking to know the proper gaps for the dagger board in the trunk. I think I'm going to use scrap ply to create the trunk spacers vs solid wood. That will give me a bit of flexibility for sizing.

Still looking for an answer on the mast partner. Thanks.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:07 pm
by Jaysen
Jacques,

Initial fitting of bow and stern seats. Still need an answer on the open questions regarding use of mast partner and mast/sprit construction.

There are no cleats yet. This shows initial fit.
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Bow seems to be off due to newbie screwup. Frame is not straight in boat. Only noticed when I measured for the seat. Decided to cut to match frame to keep it looking good. Will fill star board side gap with putty.
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Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:09 pm
by terrulian
Yep, that will do it and I'll never tell.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:07 am
by Jaysen
Starting off the morning with a little pain killer. Apparently need to work on some back strengthening exercises
320

Mid seat fitted. Required significant trimming in both sides. Maybe 1/2" on each. This is 100% in line with the trimming o did to the mid frame.
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Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:52 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, she looks really good!! Happy New Year to all!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:15 am
by Jaysen
Thanks Jeff. Same to you!

Do you think you could point the mast partner question out to Jacques? I've seen him reply to other threads and I'm up to finalizing the embedded tube for the mast. Will use thicker/stiffer if the partner os not needed.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:32 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, absolutely will do so, would you resend on the Forum or send it to my email: jeff@e-boat.net?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:54 am
by Jaysen
Last full set of questions :-)

I did figure out the trunk bight issue.
Jaysen wrote:
Jaysen wrote:Jacques,

If you recall I'm planning to use the front seat in my V12 to contain floatation foam. I will use PVC from the mast step through the foam and seat that will be aligned with the mast partner to maintain the mast rake angle.

My question is, with the bow frame and seat installed Is the mast partner needed? The frame and seat would create ridgidity in the hull and support the mast. The snotter line would still be used for retaining the mast with the cleat fixed to the mast tube.

I'm not committed to this but I like the idea. If it matters the mast will be made from 1x2 laminated to form a solid core mast. Using router will make it octagonal with the lower section rounded to fit snuggly in the step. I don't plan to completely round the entire mast. (I have more questions on mast and spar but those can wait)

Thanks.
Jacques, did you get a chance to see the above?

I also need your help on the dagger box. The CNC kit has the sides cut per the plan, but it is WAY big compared the the dagger board and the hull.

Should there be a 3/4 gap on the leading AND trailing edge (total 1.5" gap).
308

What is the expected interior width of the box? 1" is what I'm guessing and that will be reduced by glass. Is this correct?

The mid frame is only 9" from hull to seat support. But the dagger box is 15" tall. The plan says "cut a 1' slot in hull" but the box is 1.5" wide. That leaves a large portion of the box above the seat. I cut my box spacers at 11" assuming that I'm trimming the box to fit the hull height. Is this correct?
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310

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:44 pm
by jacquesmm
The daggerboard is 3/4" thick. It can be made from 3/4" plywood or 2 layers of 3/8.
The inside of the trunk is 1" wide. The 1/4" difference is for the epoxy that you will have on the daggerboard and the trunk.

Disregard the height of the daggerboard trunk. That height does not make sense unless you use another assembly method that I describe below. The width (or length) is correct.

There are 2 ways to install the trunk: either build a trunk that fits over the 1" wide opening or build a longer trunk that goes through a wider cut in the bottom and is trimmed afterwards.

Assembly method #1:
Make the trunk to fit the height of the frame, under the seat.
Cut it to exact height dimension taken from the frame, after the frame is fiberglassed. After fiberglass is important because the height may be a little different. In that case, fits over a cut in the bottom, opening = 1" wide.
Build a fillet and tape inside, flip hull and finish outside edge.

Method #2:
There is another way: make the trunk longer than needed by several inches. Cut an opening through which you can push the whole trunk assembly. Excess plywood will stick out through the bottom.
Build a nice seam with glass inside. When the whole inside is fiberglassed, flip the hull, trim the part that sticks out and epoxy the edges.
That is easier than the first method, cleaner.
For that reason, the drawing shows an trunk much longer than the finished trunk.
Along the seat, you will have about 9". Make it 12" high and you will have 3" extra to trim. The 15" we show is excessive.
I will also describe the method in the notes.
(I thought I did that years ago). :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:55 pm
by Jaysen
I'll use method 2.

How about the mast partner vs using bow seat?

I'm planning to fill under seat with floatation foam and encapsulate a 2"id tube from step to seat for the mast. Will this adequately support the mast removing the need for the partner?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:20 pm
by jacquesmm
Jaysen wrote:I'll use method 2.

How about the mast partner vs using bow seat?

I'm planning to fill under seat with floatation foam and encapsulate a 2"id tube from step to seat for the mast. Will this adequately support the mast removing the need for the partner?
Did I not reply to that?
I remember discussing the bury of the mast.
The mast works in bending. It has a fixed point at the mast step and another one at the mast partner. The partner is at the sheer level.
You have 2 layers of ply to build that partner. The partner can not move down, it must be at the sheer level.
If you use the seat as a partner instead of the partner, the bury will be too short.
If you raise the seat to the sheer level, like a deck, you can add the partner layers on top of the seat/deck and it will work.
You need that partner.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:40 pm
by Jaysen
Partner it is. Shame to loose the convenience of not having it, but not a big deal.

It does make the seat easier to assemble (no need to double or be perfect with the hole placement before closing it all up).

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:45 pm
by jacquesmm
It is anyway difficult to sit there. Good decision.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:46 am
by Jaysen
It was planned to be more of a "lounging place" for the mistress when the boat was not in motion. I need to have her look at the test fit, but I think the front seat frame is coming out. I'll just cut the seat top back to the mast step and box it in to hold foam. I'm also thinking of following the line of the breast hook down to the seat top for more foam containment. I'd like to get in as much foam as I can since I do plan to be nearshore and around possible hole creators.

If I decide to remove the frame, any tips? Current plan is to use the sawsall (protective block on backside) and flap discs on able grinder. Thought that made a cutoff wheel would get it a little closer to the hull but not sure if that is really a good idea.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:49 am
by terrulian
I would use a multi-tool.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:15 pm
by Fuzz
I to vote for the multi tool. If you do not already have one you need to get one. It is one of the most used tools I have for boat work.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:07 pm
by Jaysen
Just blew the tool budget on a new jig saw. Pretty much use it for everything except holes. Should probably get a circular saw but I don't see the need for one yet. A GOOD jig and a fence gets straight lines. Maybe the mrs will agree with you though.

Jacques, if i use the bow seat as a deck do I still need the separate breast hook? The boss hasn't passed judgement yet, but I see that option working well for me.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:48 pm
by jacquesmm
I mean build a deck at the level of the bow seat. That will be strong and look good but not necessarily stable to sit on.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:57 pm
by Jaysen
I was looking at the v12 built by corvidae. I know he put some extra bracing under there to support the curve. I was planning flat with bracing tabbed to hull. Would use the provided mast partner and just add the flat top to the bow.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:12 pm
by jacquesmm
That would be fine, as long as I understand well what you plan to do.
What matters is the load on that mast partner, the seat will allways be strong enough.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:27 pm
by Jaysen
The mast partner will be used per design. The change will effectively be adding plywood from the partner forward. I will add some compartment for foam following the keel line from bow to just before mast step.

I'll try to do some mock up tomorrow and add a picture or two.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:04 pm
by Jaysen
Oscillating multi tool acquired and frame removed. Lots of sanding will be required to clean the area up. No mock up done to lack of sunlight. Hoping to get that tomorrow

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:57 pm
by terrulian
Congrats...that was a gutsy move. :help:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:07 pm
by Fuzz
You are going to find a lot of uses for the multi-tool. You can sand spots that nothing else will get into. After I read Cracker Larry say it was a wonderful tool I knew I had to have one.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:39 pm
by Jaysen
Jacques,

Here is the "per plan" bow area with the frame "roughly removed" (I still have a lot of clean up).
336
337

Here's what I'm proposing using some paper to fill the gaps.
338
339

If I don't need the 3/8" breasthook, I'd make it out of 1/4". If I need the breast hook I'd make it out of single piece of 3/8". It will be flat (no arch). I will use the mast partners as provided. I will put bracing at the mast partner, where breasthook normally ends and 50% between those to points if needed. I will use the topside for stowage of crab traps underway or as an extra seat when anchored (not counting usage for running and spot lights). Under area will be fit with crates for anchor and line, a hanging dry bag, and small item storage (emergency kit, lighting, etc). I will use some retaining lines to prevent interference with mast.

What do you think?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:59 pm
by jacquesmm
It' fine and you could omit the breasthook if that deck goes all the way to the bow.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:38 pm
by Jaysen
That was my plan. I'll use 3/8 for that full piece. How much braces g should I plan?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:31 pm
by Jaysen
Looks like I should be able to get some work done.

Sat:
1. Glue ups dagger box
2. Finish sanding hull interior to remove remnants of front frame.
3. Remove mid seat cleats on hull not in correct location.
4. Reseal sanded areas with straight epoxy.
5. Prep transom for skeg "squaring" appendage.

Sun:
1. Send a few hundred units of .40 lead down range.
2. Flip hull
3. Glue/glass skeg.
4. Contemplate the Cracker Larry graphite method.

If I get half that done I'll be happy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:27 am
by Jeff
Serious plan for the weekend!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:44 am
by Jaysen
Other than the sanding it's mostly "burst work".

One thing I just realized is that I can't do dagger box till it's skeg time. Can't mix (won't bother) that small a quantity of glue. Other thing I think I've screwed up is the order of ops on graphite. I think I need to install the dagger trunk before I graphite. Otherwise I'm cutting and then FG over the hardened bottom.

Am I thinking about that right?

And if I am that means I'll completely ditch everything on Sunday after #1. If add "cut rub tail strips" to Saturday and then start applying them to the hull in Sunday.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:22 am
by terrulian
I did my best to follow CL's graphite procedure and the result was acceptable. I can report that in my case, sifting didn't seem to make any difference, as the graphite I used didn't tend to clump even without sifting. Also, though I did wait for the heavy stuff to settle as Cracker Larry recommended, I didn't really find a residue at the bottom of the cup. I tried the heat gun to smooth things out but this also had little effect. I have a feeling that there are quite a few variables like temp/humidity, brand of graphite, brand of epoxy, and skill of the user. In the end the job got done.

It seems pretty hard but I had to add a bronze runner on the bottom of the skeg, as dragging the boat across rocky beaches quickly wore through since the boat's entire weight was sliding on 3/8" inches of graphite. This job was complicated but the skeg now is very robust and stands up to abuse. I made the mistake of terminating the bronze at the forward point where the screws I was attaching it with would begin to pierce the hull, and I now wish I had extended it farther and secured it with a layer of sacrificial glass, because the very forward end of the skeg, which is unprotected by the bronze, is abraded down to bare glass. The remainder of the hull, which also gets scraped by rocks, gets scratched but since the weight elsewhere is spread on a wider surface than it is at the skeg, the graphite has so far survived.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:06 am
by Jaysen
Hmm... While I'm dealing with mud/sand (thank you gentle south east coastal shorelines) I will have the frequent thuds of oysters on the bottom. I'll likely have to add some armor to my keg as well. I'm actually debating running from the bow eye all the way to the transom. While I'll be unpowered I do fully expect to have real "impact" to the beds. Clearer water and less channel shifting in the marshes would reduce that a bit, but it is what it is.

I definitely need to "up" the trailer/dolly situation if I keep adding more to Lil Bit. I'll be launching from an actual ramp and need to be able to roll her out into the water a bit. The unit I have now has wide tires which will help with the mud, is aluminum which will help with corrosion, but likely won't be able to take the weight. If I can't push her into the water then I'm adding dragging her over the concrete to the list of things that will be digging into the hull.

Add that to my list of "issues to resolve". What is it that make all of us thing solving these problem is "fun"?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:03 pm
by Jaysen
Got sanding done. Went to cut rub tails and may saws... they is both dead.

Lowes for tools in the morning followed by reduction of ammo stocks. Should be able to get rails cut and into epoxy application by afternoon. Maybe. Turning into one of those weekends that make you wonder if going to work is a better plan than your previous plan.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:49 pm
by Jaysen
Question in rub rails: am I cutting straight strips or curved? The straight strips flare away from the hull on the bottom side of the rail. I don't think that's an issue (full with putty) but I've been wrong about most things in my life. 😏

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:36 pm
by terrulian
It's probably too late for this but I think it was Jacques that recommended cutting the rails using the upper edges of the sides as a pattern, so yes, they are curved. I think you will find that bending them in a compound curve will be challenging but it's been done. You may be able to reconstruct a curve for the sheer by going back to the original plans, however.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:43 pm
by Jaysen
The straight strip follows the sheer but the bottom of the strip does not lay on the hull. Would be easy to fill. Just want to make sure that's the right direction.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:04 pm
by terrulian
That may be a question for Jacques. The gunwale/inwale/sheer strip has a structural function stiffening the hull; it's not merely aesthetic trim. So I think if I were doing it and there was a gap, I'd want it filled with chopped glass and epoxy, or better yet a ribbon of glass if it is possible to fit it. You want the result to be firm.
I wouldn't take my word for it but that's my take.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:35 pm
by Jaysen
The gap is 1/4" at the most. I think I have enough tape that I could wrap it if I need to. I hate that biax with a passion though.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:34 am
by terrulian
Biax will be sloppy, but wait until it's green and then run a utility knife along the bottom of the wood strip.

-or-

Wet out the void with a chip brush and then use a spreader to force chopped glass mixed with wood flour and epoxy up into the space you want to fill. Tape it up to avoid sags and then remove the tape after a couple of hours.

-or-

Best: Invert the boat and let gravity eliminate the sagging and then use either of the above methods. This will be the easiest way to go but I don't know how difficult it is to flip your boat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:57 am
by jacquesmm
Jaysen wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:49 pm Question in rub rails: am I cutting straight strips or curved? The straight strips flare away from the hull on the bottom side of the rail. I don't think that's an issue (full with putty) but I've been wrong about most things in my life. 😏
It's not going to work with straight strips unless they are very thin.
Cut them along the same curve than the sheer line. Use the flat panel sheer edge as a template.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:24 pm
by Jaysen
jacquesmm wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:57 am It's not going to work with straight strips unless they are very thin.
Is the goal to have "100% contact" of the rub rail across the 1.5" width? Using 1/4" ply I'm able to get the rail to make 100% contact in all but a few areas (around the location of bow frame). I'm using spring clamps on the bottom edge to close the bottom gap. I've no issues redoing it (other than I need more wood now) if required.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:00 pm
by jacquesmm
If you have full contact or enough to fill the gap with epoxy, then it is fine. Many builders have reported that it was a struggle to bend the strips properly but if you did, it's fine.
It depends on the type of wood and patience of the builder.
BTW, this for the V10 and V12: those boats have a twisted sheer line.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:30 pm
by Jaysen
I think I'm good. I doubled the clamp count and I get a single strip 100% flat to the hull from bow to mid seat. The problem before was that I had the clamps too far apart.

I'm using 1/4" ply. I will add one strip at a time doing both sides at the same time. I will need to "temp assemble" both full rub rails to get the strips properly sized and trimmed (width) to minimize fill/fairing on the hull. I'm guessing it will be a much longer than needed project since this is really the first "finish" type work I'm doing and this has to be a bit "more right" than normal.

I should be able to get back to work worth taking pictures of soon.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:57 pm
by Fuzz
Been two weeks, need my "lil Bit" fix :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:45 am
by Jaysen
Unlike you "people" working in the tundra, us southerners tend to prep for hot, not cold. And by cold I mean temperatures that you equate to summer evenings. :P

Seriously though... between rain, temps below reasonable cure temp, and general reprioritization by "the boss" It's been a bit. I have managed to cut ALMOST all the rub rail strips, acquire adequate clamps to afix said strips as well as devise a plan to get them all on quickly. Once I get a day that is >60 for the 7hrs needed (which pushes it to a weekend) I'll get on the rub rails.

The rest of the "stuff" (dagger board, rudder, etc) that I could be doing is all being put on hold as my indoor working space is currently being consumed by the aforementioned "boss". Given my general condition of 'in trouble" I try to not avoid intentionally stirring up the pot. I'm sure you are familiar with the condition from which I suffer.

All of that means that there isn't likely to be any update this weekend, but the following weekend looks promising.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:55 pm
by Fuzz
Well it only took $825 of diesel to maintain that "summers evening" temperature in the shop and house last month :( You guys get it for free :roll:
As for the boss I "let" her go visit family in Russia for the next three months so I get to be boss for a while :lol: Only problem is me and her dog seem to be losing weight :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:48 pm
by Jaysen
I'd love to send mine to russia for a few weeks. Alas, she's not foreign (other than being a yankee). As it is, sending her to visit family is dangerous. She might bring them back with her. Then we'd have to move again.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:12 pm
by Fuzz
I am one of those rare men who would love to have my mother in law live with us. When she is here I can do no wrong and the wife does not do enough to take care of her man :D Love watching SWMBO get out ranked :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:55 am
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:12 pm I am one of those rare men who would love to have my mother in law live with us. When she is here I can do no wrong and the wife does not do enough to take care of her man :D Love watching SWMBO get out ranked :lol:
I have the opposite. "You can do better" gets old. You think that after 25 years and only working because she want's too, you'd think the wife's choice would be validated by now. Oh well.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:29 am
by Jaysen
Starting on the rub rails. Ran into a "process" question.

I'm using 3x3/8 to make the thickness. Now that everything cut and fit the assembly stage is next. Which is the question... how should I assemble?

Here are my options.
1. One layer at a time with set up time between each layer.
2. Stick it all on the boat in one big glue up (no set up time).
3. Laminate the rails off the boat then muscle it all together for one glue to the hull.

I'm thinking I want option 1. 2 would seem to make things overly fluid leading to drift of layers. 3 would make the rail too stiff to bend to the compound curve of the hull.

Thoughts?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:58 pm
by terrulian
1. One layer at a time with set up time between each layer.
2. Stick it all on the boat in one big glue up (no set up time).
3. Laminate the rails off the boat then muscle it all together for one glue to the hull.
Here's my vote: #1 for sure. #2 has plenty of potential for catastrophe and #3 is not likely to bend at all. #1 will be difficult enough. Make sure that the top of each laminate is at least level with the final surface you want to achieve. Then a plane will give you a flush surface. I admit that this leaves a little room for unevenness on the underside but when you get there report back to us for further amateur advice. :D :roll:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:01 pm
by Jaysen
I don't as actually planning to line up the bottom of the rails then plane/sand the top flush. The bottom would still get fillet/faired and the top faired. I think it will come out "the same" either way though.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:09 pm
by cape man
One at a time.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:39 pm
by Jaysen
Well fuzz, here some fodder you can shoot back at me.

Got all my pieces cut. Asked my question and got answered. Went outside and mixed up enough epoxy to the the rub rails in ONE SETTING. Then ran out of clamps after the P&S bow sections were on. 12oz of glue sitting there going to waste.

Moral to the story... when you change your plans CHANGE THE PLAN ON THE PAPER TOO. At least I know I'm an idiot.

No pics. Had a too messy to touch phone.

Let the appropriate razzing begin!!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:27 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, I bet it will never happen again!! Enjoy the rest of your weekend!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:52 pm
by Jaysen
I expect it will happen again tomorrow!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:55 pm
by Fuzz
:lol: :lol: :lol: As they say I am loving it.
If you and I got together we could f... up a s... sandwich :help:
Just remember no matter how bad it seems somebody has done worse. That and it CAN be fixed.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:55 pm
by Fuzz
Pictures would have made it more fun for the rest of us :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:45 pm
by Jaysen
I promise you a pict of the wasted glue. Complete with embedded stir stick and putty knife.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:02 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:55 pm :lol: :lol: :lol: As they say I am loving it.
If you and I got together we could f... up a s... sandwich :help:
Just remember no matter how bad it seems somebody has done worse. That and it CAN be fixed.
"The boss" would like me to inform you:
1. He can f up ANY sandwich on his own. He may be able to teach you a thing or two on creative f ups.
2. It's hard to believe anyone can surpass him when it comes to "worse". And there have been enough bonfires to prove there are points where things can't be fixed.

Much to my frequent dismay she keeps track. On paper. With photos. And signatures from witnesses. I've no idea why she sticks around. I clearly married up.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:07 pm
by Fuzz
:lol: :lol: Good one. I feel for you..............a little :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:28 pm
by Jaysen
I deserve it. She's a saint.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:09 pm
by Jaysen
I wanted to make sure I had no alligned joints. First layer is 8' bow and 56" stern. First pic is just the bow section since someone did not buy enough clamps. Second pic is for Fuzz. Third pic is the 56" stern for layer 1 and the 48" bow sections for layer two. Third layer will have 8' bow sections.

478

479

480

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:19 pm
by terrulian
I think you need more clamps, really. If you look in the gallery I think you'll find builders putting them every 4-6 inches.
Slicing pvc tubing in 1/2 works, or buy a bunch at HF.
It's hard to get good contact all along the shear without a lot of clamps and you don't want voids.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:49 pm
by Jaysen
I did lots of test fitting and marking for clamp placement. I also used a bit "extra" glue. All the seams "squirted" along the length. I'll also be giving it a few coats of much thinner glue to let it seep into and voids there may exist that i didn't find.

I'm also wond ring if I need to wrap the rubrail in fg. It seems folks are only doing that with bright work, but it would add even more strength for the v12.

Clamp availability is an issue. Never been able to find a HF, TSC is a bit away, and I've cleaned Lowes out three times. Add to that the likelihood of ever needing all these again...

I'll have to try that PVC trick. I'm not sure it would be enough to keep the twist in the ply. The spring clamps I'm using do the trick but the off brands of the same size didn't cut it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:52 pm
by Fuzz
Are you going to bright finish the rails? If not you could use screws to pull them in tight. I drilled holes and glued in wood dowels to help things line up. Or as has been advised use a ton more clamps.
Me thinks you protest too much.............I see no great mess :? Things are looking pretty darn good to me.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:18 pm
by pee wee
Jaysen wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:09 pm I wanted to make sure I had no alligned joints. First layer is 8' bow and 56" stern. First pic is just the bow section since someone did not buy enough clamps. Second pic is for Fuzz. Third pic is the 56" stern for layer 1 and the 48" bow sections for layer two. Third layer will have 8' bow sections.

480
480
480
Is it just me or do those second and third pictures look suspiciously similar to pic one??

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:33 pm
by Jaysen
Bright finish. Hell no. I did my time sanding on a 34' Shannon last summer. Lil Bit gets painted.

Screws would work. Although I'm still not 100% sure there's an issue. There is plenty of glue there (yes I do actually clean up at times) and it is all toght to the hull. I just have to limit myself to no more than 16' total (8' per side) at a time. Just for the record, not all the clamps are on those pieces.

And the sand is very very nice for cleaning up clumps of dropped epoxy. Just need to rake and pick up. Done.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:34 pm
by Jaysen
pee wee wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:18 pm

Is it just me or do those second and third pictures look suspiciously similar to pic one??
Dang it. Fixing now ...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:35 pm
by Jaysen
Just so folks don't have to go back to find the edited version ...
Jaysen wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:09 pm I wanted to make sure I had no alligned joints. First layer is 8' bow and 56" stern. First pic is just the bow section since someone did not buy enough clamps. Second pic is for Fuzz. Third pic is the 56" stern for layer 1 and the 48" bow sections for layer two. Third layer will have 8' bow sections.

478

479

480

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:14 pm
by terrulian
I don't have the V12 plans but Jacques did not specify glassing the gunwales on my V10, and I suspect the V12 is the same. I glassed them, as I did all bright work, because they are in places that, other than the skeg, see the most abuse. It's gonna happen that you drop an oar or bang an oarlock on them, or the boom if you're building a sailing version. Epoxy is excellently durable, but can be abraded or cracked with abuse. The downside is that it adds weight. I also glassed the entire bottom and by the time all that is added up along with lots of paint and varnish, my boat is a bit of a heavy girl. However, I figured that even if I made it to Jacques' specs, which include none of this extra glass and don't even count paint, it still would be too unwieldy to move around by myself without a cart. So in some ways the added weight makes little practical difference and adds to the boat's looks and durability.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:14 am
by Jaysen
Once again, "the boss" has shortened my work day...

Making progress on the rub rails. Boring so no photos.

Looked to start on rudder. Noticed the dang thing is bent. Must have happened in glue up because I can't straighten it with weight. I think I'm going to need to make a new one. Luckily for me Peter showed how he made that fin and I'm thinking I could do something similar for a rudder. How bad of an idea is that?

Basic thought is using scrap 1/4 for a core, some non-marine 1/4 for the shaping surfaces, and some shapeed 2x1 to create a base profile.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:04 pm
by Jaysen
Who was it that recommended the reciprocating multi tool? I think I hate you. I hate that thing. But it works sooo wellll. Let me show you.

Someone cut a giant hole in my hull!
493

Oh look, the daggerboard trunk fits nicely!
494

I concede that this S. O. B. has a place in every workshop. I still hate it.

Tomorrow will be sanding (hooray), glassing that trunk inside the hull, more rub rail, and working in the dagger board. Should be able to get it all done-ish in a day.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:21 pm
by Fuzz
What is it that you do not like about your multi-tool? I love mine, could not build a boat without it. At least it feels that way now that I have one.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:28 pm
by Jaysen
I think I have it down to the motion of the tool.
1. It is the only laterally motioned tool that has opposing actions.
2. It is the only tool that that is a plunge tool with no built in dust evacuation.

I'm sure I'll get used to it but for now... I. Hate. It.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:51 am
by pee wee
Yeah, mine does buzz and want to jump around when plunge cutting. If it needed to be run for over a short time it would be annoying, but usually it is brought out for some specific job that can't easily be done another way- and it takes care of it quickly. I had mine for years before I tried out the sanding attachment and discovered how good it works. The great thing about them is they can quickly do chores that would be difficult without them.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:59 am
by Jaysen
I'm going to try the sander in about.... 45 seconds. Its the only thing that will get inside the trunk slot (I'm tooooo laaazzzy to do it by hand). As much as I hate that b4st4rd I can see where Fuzz and others get their love for it. I'm already looking at the remaining work and telling myself "that P.O.S will make short work of that task".

Is 9AM on a Sunday too early for rum?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:36 am
by AmbitiousRookie
It's 5 o'clock somewhere lol

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:05 pm
by Jaysen
List knocked off with the exception of daggerboard work.

The S.O.B. tool killed the sanding for the dagger trunk. I was sitting there scratching my ..... thinking "how the heck am I going to clamp that in there with no clamps?" when I starting laughing to myself over Fuzz's bracket. Then I remembered how he clamped up his transom and said to myself, "Hey moron, why don't you actually LISTEN to suggestions?" I drilled some 3/8" holes lined up with the dagger trunk spacers and used some 1" screws to pull that sucker tight. Checked alignment, pulled it apart, then stated glueing it in.

500

501

Once that was done fillet and 6" tape. Used my left over straight to touch up some areas I sanded too far down.

502

503

504

505

Stuck on the next 8' section of rub rail as well (no pics). I've resigned myself to the idea that I'm rushing it and will have to redo in a year or so. I'm ok with that.

Next week will be last sections of rub rail, glass the rail, then get ready for a flip. Once the flip is done I'll whack the dagger trunk excess with the S.O.B. and glass that in. I'm guessing that's 2 weeks out.

506

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:31 am
by Fuzz
Well since you have such faith in my tool recommendations I thought I would try one more. I see you are using a screw driver and phillips screws. Since I switched to this set up I have not use a phillips screw in a month of Sundays.Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:23 am
by BB Sig
:idea: I agree 100%! :idea: There will never be a Phillips screw in my house unless it is a specialty screw. I have Baskin Robbin's beat with torx and square screws! My wife was in town and I got low on 2.5" screws. I called her and asked her to pick some up and she bought Phillips. 8O I stopped working when I ran out and waited until I could exchange them.

The only thing I do different than Fuzz is to buy the ones in a plastic container. They are stackable and I reuse them. :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:46 am
by Jaysen
I have 25lbs of those 1" drywall screws. Twent. Five. Pounds. Until those are gone...

The only issue I've had with torn/square is availability of parts. Ex screws, bits, hand drivers. The over sized bin for philips came about due to that. On the plus side, those drywall screws are "disposable" in my world.

Fuzz, I see your using the impact driver for screws. Why?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:03 pm
by Fuzz
Well with 25 lbs of phillips screws I would keep using them myself.
The impact driver just seems to work better for me. And I like that it is lighter and smaller.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:53 am
by Jaysen
Just got done removing all the mid seat cleats from the hull sides. Good thing too, not enough glue. And reason I shouldn't use multiple layers of ply to make cleats the conform to the hull line?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:46 am
by terrulian
And reason I shouldn't use multiple layers of ply to make cleats the conform to the hull line?
It seems more trouble than just taking a 1x1 and using a rasp to shape it to the curve.

What I did, which I got from someone on the forum, was to put the seat in place with packing tape protecting it from the areas where it will contact the sides and cleats. Then, having made up the cleats, wet them and the hull out and then add some wood flour to goop them up but leave a space of about 1" at the ends and leave the hull dry there, too. Then take a hot glue gun and put a dab on the ends, reach down and hold the cleat against the hull and the seat bottom until the hot glue kicks. Do this with all the cleats. A couple of hours later remove the seat and all of the cleats will be in the exact right place. After the epoxy kicks you goop up the top of the cleats and place the seat in position with some weights. Later, you'll tab the seat top to the hull.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:11 pm
by Jaysen
That's a nifty method.

The error on initial glue up was actually not getting the seat angle correct. Should have waited till Dagger trunk was in. Current issue (while seemingly easy to solve) is I'm out of solid wood! Lots of ply scraps but nothing solid!

Before someone tells me to go to lowes, the issue is mrs won't let me put construction materials in her new car. The story of why is hilarious but just gets me in more trouble. Next chance to get wood is 3weeks or pay for delivery.

Really wanted to get seats in this weekend (and latest layer of rub rail. That gives me next weekend to start on the bottom and mast.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:43 pm
by terrulian
The plywood strips will work then, but you'll have to laminate them for enough thickness.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:54 pm
by Jaysen
Plan is three layers of 3/8. Was planning to stagger the layers using some scrap (for reference) to make top flatter. Use some screws to pull the strips tight to hull.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:27 pm
by Jaysen
Cleats in. Then out. Then in. Then out. Then in.

The problem turned out to the the seat not the cleats. Needed to relive one corner. Now I have a few holes to patch up but I'm happy with the end result.

Next question: what can be used in place of wood flour for making "goop"? I'm out again and, while dirt cheap, want to avoid shipping. Maybe I just prong for paint at the same time and call it good?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:13 pm
by terrulian
Next question: what can be used in place of wood flour for making "goop"? I'm out again and, while dirt cheap, want to avoid shipping. Maybe I just prong for paint at the same time and call it good?
Not sure what "pronging" is but I'd like to know.
Common other additives are microballoons (microspheres), colloidal silica (cabosil), milled glass fibers, and chopped glass. If there's a Tap Plastics store around they'll have these, as will many chandleries. They can also give you the run-down on the differences between these but you can find that online and on the bateau website.

Failing any of these being nearby, you can make chopped glass filler by, um, chopping up glass. Just take scissors and keep chopping until the pieces are very small and falling apart, then mix it with epoxy until you have enough thickness for the job. The drawback here is this is not as workable and sandable as the others but I've done this. I don't think in the application you're using it for that it will matter much as long as you make sure you're getting good contact between the cleats, hull, and seats. Others may disagree. So listen to them. :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:33 pm
by Jaysen
Prong == spring As in "I will spring for paint"

I'm the tech guy who is hated by the very tech he supports.

Micro balloons are too soft for glue aren't they? More for fairing. I've got lots of those.

Chopped glass scares me. A lot. Mostly because I refuse to work "safely" and the last thin I need are glass fibers gettinging the internal air bags. Other than that I've a ton of 12oz woven left and a food processor that is unused. I bet I could destroy the food processor faster than mere mortals can kill a hand mixer.

All I have here is a mini West and a lowes. Everything else is 1.5hr or more which means shipping is faster (wife has car next couple of weeks).

Looks like tomorrow will be last of large rub rail pieces and fairing some crap in the hull while the rail dries. Oh, and some idiot realized the skeg isn't actually attached to the hull. So no seats. This weekend. Probably for the best.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:19 pm
by terrulian
You don't need a blender and wear a mask and you'll be fine just chopping up the glass.

If you are still talking about the stuff you're going to use to thicken epoxy as you're gluing the seats to the cleats, I personally wouldn't worry about the strength of microballoons in a glue. You're going to tab the seats to the hull anyway, and that will provide so much strength that the microballoons shouldn't be a concern. However, I am not an engineer and there are lots of people on this list who are professionals. I'm just giving you an answer that I think is reasonable until they jump in.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:07 pm
by peter-curacao
Jaysen wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:33 pm Micro balloons are too soft for glue aren't they? More for fairing. I've got lots of those.
Don't use those for structural welds and or laminating, I don't know what you mean by a mini west but if you mean a west systems store look for West 406 Colloidal Silica, if this is not what you mean take a belt sander and make some wood dust.
Chopping glass is a biach 8O :(

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:30 pm
by Jaysen
"Mini West" is what we call the micro sized West Marine store here. Just a base parts store for emergency repairs. Virtually everything has to be ordered from Charleston.

Peter, the current supply of wood flour is destined for the rub rail. What do you think of Tony's idea of using the fairing mix stuff to hold the seats to the cleats? I will be taping the seats to the hull and the daggerboard trunk the the seat. The back seat till be filled with foam and taped to the hull. Are those structural joints in your definition?

Was chatting with the boss and she said "stop being cheap! Get my yellow paint and whatever else you need. TAKE ME TO THE SAND BAR!!!" So looks like I'll be calling Jeff and Jamie Monday.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:03 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, call me Monday morning and I will get you want you need asap!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:21 pm
by Fuzz
He needs about a drums worth of epoxy. 20 or so sheets of assorted plywood and 3-4 rolls of biax. Oh and 20 lbs of wood flour. :lol: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:31 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:03 pm Jaysen, call me Monday morning and I will get you want you need asap!! Jeff
Short list to start with:
Wood flour
Fighting Lady Yellow or close to it (only need to cover upper panels of hull)
Very light greyish that can take non skid additive (entire interior)
Nonskid additive.
Some medium or fast epoxy
Light cloth (the 12oz it too heavy/thick for a few places)

Might need to add more if I screw something up tomorrow.

BTW, the "remnants" of the cnc kit are bailing my bacon out of the fire. Rub rails. Cleats for seats. Bow "deck" I'm adding. So far it's all coming from the cutoffs.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:35 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:21 pm He needs about a drums worth of epoxy. 20 or so sheets of assorted plywood and 3-4 rolls of biax. Oh and 20 lbs of wood flour. :lol: :lol:
Seems like that's what I've used. I'm almost out of my SECOND three gal kit. This will be third wood flour order. That's enough for TWO v12 kits. I will say that my latest tape job is MUCH better than my first. No running mess or puddles in the low spots.

Need to get even better if I'm going to tackle the big blow boats.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:02 am
by Fuzz
Keep building them. Each one will be better than the last one. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:34 am
by Jaysen
Already in discussions with the bank on the next one. Trying to decide on "go fast" or "floating hotel". Will be sail powered with electric harbor motor either way.

I've also made a small decision after yesterday. All future builds need to have a proper "build space". Not necessarily walled but proper shelter with adequate overhang, proper power for lights, fans, heat, and tools to all run at the same time, some type of lift capacity, and a hard level floor that won't need reset after every rain. I should be able to just improve the current area with some 8x8 posts 12' high and just modify the structure as needed. Luckily I need some concrete and fence work done so those may go in soon.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:29 am
by peter-curacao
Jaysen wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:30 pm What do you think of Tony's idea of using the fairing mix stuff to hold the seats to the cleats?
I personally would absolutely avoid that, use the appropriate materials there where needed.
It's your boat so do whatever you please, but before you decide to go ahead with the the fairing filler take a look at the chart below, you will find that the fairing filler have "no strength" what so ever.
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:05 am
by terrulian
Peter, I completely cede the point to you, and I regularly follow the chart you've posted. Can I say that I've, never, ever used a mix recommended for one use when I didn't have it on hand? :roll: I do not ever recall one of my epoxy jobs failing to stick together.

But does the chart say it has "no strength"? I'm not seeing that; it's just a continuum from strongest to most sandable. Nothing goes to zero. I have to epoxy some stuff up today so for yuks I'm going to take a couple of scraps of Meranti and make up some glue from microballoons and glue them together. Tomorrow I'll try to break them and we'll see what happens. Kind of like the Mythbusters! If they just pop apart I owe you a beer. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:31 am
by peter-curacao
terrulian wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:05 am Peter, I completely cede the point to you, and I regularly follow the chart you've posted. Can I say that I've, never, ever used a mix recommended for one use when I didn't have it on hand? :roll: I do not ever recall one of my epoxy jobs failing to stick together.

But does the chart say it has "no strength"? I'm not seeing that; it's just a continuum from strongest to most sandable. Nothing goes to zero. I have to epoxy some stuff up today so for yuks I'm going to take a couple of scraps of Meranti and make up some glue from microballoons and glue them together. Tomorrow I'll try to break them and we'll see what happens. Kind of like the Mythbusters! If they just pop apart I owe you a beer. :D
It's like don't try to reinvent the wheel, actually it's quite simple no Mythbusters needed, take a leftover film of hardened epoxy without filler with 410 filler and 406 filler, you will find the first 2 you can break without any effort, now try to break the one with the 406 filler, getting my point? :wink:
Regarding the chart,no it doesn't mention strength at the 410 filler while it gives 1 to 4 stars in strength to other fillers, and yes it probably sticks together at the point you are gluing but you want the keep it stick together over the years also don't you?
Again I say, don't try to reinvent the wheel use the appropriate materials there where needed.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:47 am
by Tungsten
Enjoying the build! I'd agree that pretty much any filler will work,theres talc powder ,chopped up paper, chopped up cotton, dust from under the table saw it all works.Just keep the consistency between mayo and ketchup.
Build on.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:51 am
by terrulian
Still going to do my experiment and I'll let you know.
Anyway the point was, remember, that he didn't have the right materials and he was gluing the seats to the cleats, not the frames to the hull. Of course you want to use the right stuff for the right job, but that's easy for me to say, since Tap Plastics is about five minutes away.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:52 am
by peter-curacao
Tungsten wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:47 am Enjoying the build! I'd agree that pretty much any filler will work,theres talc powder ,chopped up paper, chopped up cotton, dust from under the table saw it all works.Just keep the consistency between mayo and ketchup.
Build on.
Yes it works as a filler that's about it, and while we're at it lets substitute the epoxy for wallpaper glue :lol:
Again Jaysen it's your boat do whatever you please :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:01 am
by peter-curacao
terrulian wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:51 am Still going to do my experiment and I'll let you know.
Anyway the point was, remember, that he didn't have the right materials and he was gluing the seats to the cleats, not the frames to the hull. Of course you want to use the right stuff for the right job, but that's easy for me to say, since Tap Plastics is about five minutes away.
When I started my CS 25 there was only one marine shop on the island, if they didn't have what I needed I ordered or waited for the right stuff to arrive, even if it was for something simple as gluing a seat, after all that one had to hold 100 + kg also, well in my case that is :D
So I know as no other how difficult it is to pause a project because of lack in materials especially when your in a nice pace, but I rather wait doing a good job then rush ahead doing a wrong job, or even worse bringing myself or my passengers in danger because of my impatience. :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:25 am
by Jaysen
Let me ask the question differently: since I'm tapping the seats to the hull, and the cleats are glued on really well, what structural point is the glue keeping the seat to the clear providing?

Id think the tape and cleats are doing the real work and the glue between cleat and seat is less critical. I'm not arguing one way or the other as much as trying to understand why things can and can't be used and the logic behind it.

That said, I'm placing and order Monday and will only be using microbollons for filler in non structure until more wood flour arrives.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:37 am
by terrulian
Id think the tape and cleats are doing the real work and the glue between cleat and seat is less critical.
The seats definitely contribute to the rigidity of the hull. The working assumption I was going on was that this rigidity is sufficiently achieved by taping the seats to the hull and also to the associated frames; but of course a secure connection between seats, cleats, and hull can do nothing but strengthen that connection. Obviously, I'm just flapping my lips here; Jacques would be the person who could give you a reliable answer.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:51 am
by peter-curacao
Jaysen I'm sorry don't know what more I can do to explain, I gave several examples and explanations about my thoughts.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:22 am
by Jaysen
I understand your logic. The only "question" is the physics of the seat to cleat mechanics. Does it require "strongest glue" when taped? The v12 build instruction list doesn't talk about taping the seat to the hull, just glueing it to the seats.

I think it's a Jacques question at this point.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:51 am
by peter-curacao
Jaysen wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:22 am I understand your logic. The only "question" is the physics of the seat to cleat mechanics. Does it require "strongest glue" when taped? The v12 build instruction list doesn't talk about taping the seat to the hull, just glueing it to the seats.

I think it's a Jacques question at this point.
The cleats at the sides and at top of the frames give you a lots of glue surface what brings the structural strength to the hull, this has to be done with good glue, as I said before I don't see epoxy with fairing filler as a (good) glue, but that's me, you probably want to fillet with the same fairing mixture and tape over that? Yes it will probably hold but imho it's just not the way to do it, I would wait for the good stuff.
Maybe I missed it but what tape are you gonna use? if it's light woven there is a chance it will break after the fairing filler fillets fail.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:04 pm
by Jaysen
Cleats are wood flour glued to hull
6oz biax tape will be used on top of seat to hull.
Cleats set to fully support seat (multiple adjustments).

Really we are pony talking about the cleat to seat bottom and the fillet under the biax.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:09 pm
by peter-curacao
Jaysen wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:04 pm
Really we are pony talking about the cleat to seat bottom and the fillet under the biax.
Okay I had too look that up
Talking Pony
When a person is talking absolute and utter annoying nonsense at you, and you can’t get away.
What did he say to you?
Ah nothing he was talking pony.
Go ahead do whatever you want, why do you even ask, I'm done and gone, good luck on your build!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:39 pm
by Jaysen
Ha! That was supposed to be "only". Working using my phone. No one has anything for thickener. Saw dust shall be made!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:51 pm
by Jaysen
Dang you Fuzz! You and your "use a screw or two on the rub rail"...

Let's do some basic math folks.
Every third grade math teacher ever wrote: H = 3/8 x 3 + 1/4

Given the fact that Jaysen's hull and rub rail thickness can be calculated as H, how stupid is Jaysen for using 1.5" screws to assist with clamping the rub rail?
Looks like some idiot gets to fill some new holes in his hull.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:55 pm
by Jaysen
Here's my plan to dice the little holes I have.

1. Drill out hole to 1/4"
2. Put some straight epoxy in the hole using cotton swab.
3. Cover outside hole with tape.
4. Fill with ...

I was thinking microballoons but now I'm not so sure. Really thick wood flour? The rub rails will get wrapped in 6oz biax but I'm not sure what is right in the hole.

Ideas?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:25 pm
by terrulian
The problem is going to be getting those holes filled with them horizontal. Gravity will leave a space at the top. I don't know how much the boat weighs at this point but I would be tempted to tape up, say the port side of the holes, prop the boat up on its side, and fill with a reasonably liquid mix of wood flour and epoxy, like thick syrup, from the starboard side. The holes will sag a little so if you want you could go back and just put a little goop in each one, this time more like peanut butter, then smooth with a spreader, when you're doing the glass layup, wet on wet.

BTW I did glue two small pieces of Meranti together using a paste of microballoons and epoxy. I'll report back.

In regard to the whole cleat problem: If Jacques did not specify taping the seats, then I am quite confident that gluing the seats down with, jeesh, anything, together with the additional taping, is strong enough. I know I taped my seat tops to the hull and I thought I remember that was part of the instructions.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:30 pm
by Jaysen
Page 3 of v12 build notes, last item before "Finish"
"-Install seat tops: glue on cleats with epoxy putty, staple."

That's it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:22 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:55 pm Here's my plan to dice the little holes I have.

1. Drill out hole to 1/4"
2. Put some straight epoxy in the hole using cotton swab.
3. Cover outside hole with tape.
4. Fill with ...

I was thinking microballoons but now I'm not so sure. Really thick wood flour? The rub rails will get wrapped in 6oz biax but I'm not sure what is right in the hole.

Ideas?
What? you were only 1/8 inch long :lol: And how is it my fault you used too long of screw :doh:
I would drill them out a little over size. Tape one side with packing tape. Fill hole and if your mix wants to run put tape over that side too. Like Tony said if it is not perfectly full you can add a little more after it has hardened.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:27 pm
by peter-curacao
No clue what your guys all talking about, really! put the sides up to fill some holes on the sides? you've got to be kidding me, just mix op some non sagging mixture of silica and epoxy and fill up and sand those suckers! Again use the stuff that's meant to be for the job and you don't have to reinvent the wheel, but hey what does this third world country islander know right? :roll:

Edit: those are really heavy fillets with lots of material connecting the deck to the side panels, you really think I flipped my boat back over to lay those and tape them?
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:31 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:22 pm What? you were only 1/8 inch long :lol: And how is it my fault you used too long of screw :doh:
Never would have tried that without "encouragement" :P

Just because I'm slow... why wouldn't I use paste thick enough that it doesn't sag? I've made stuff closer to playdogh that still won't come off.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:40 pm
by Jaysen
peter-curacao wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:27 pm No clue what your guys all talking about, really! put the sides up to fill some holes on the sides? you've got to be kidding me, just mix op some non sagging mixture of silica and epoxy and fill up and sand those suckers! Again use the stuff that's meant to be for the job and you don't have to reinvent the wheel, but hey what does this third world country islander know right? :roll:
I'm listening! Used remaining flour and sifted "120g sander dust" to get the rub rail on. I'll add silica stuff to the list for Jeff. All I have on hand are fairing mix and graphite. I'll get the straight stuff in the holes once things have cured enough to remove screws and clamps.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:42 pm
by Fuzz
That is what I would do. But first paint a little neat resin in the holes and let it tack up. Heck I have 5-6 holes in my hull that are one inch or bigger and that is what I am doing to them.
One time I was helping a buddy move a bare hull home he had just bought. The thing was half full of water and we had no pump. He was all worried and afraid to move it like that. I walked over to the hull with a cordless drill and a 3/4 bit. Punched a hole in it and said "lets go get a beer" I thought he was going to cry :lol: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:49 pm
by Jaysen
I've seen you guys drilling enough holes to not be worried about it being possible. I only want to make sure I use "the right stuff". I've been striking out all day...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:50 pm
by peter-curacao
Fuzz wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:42 pm He was all worried and afraid to move it like that. I walked over to the hull with a cordless drill and a 3/4 bit. Punched a hole in it and said "lets go get a beer" I thought he was going to cry :lol: :lol:
LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: my kind of a guy, don’t talk, just act 8)
Jaysen wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:49 pm I've seen you guys drilling enough holes to not be worried about it being possible. I only want to make sure I use "the right stuff".
Any drill will do :P :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:00 pm
by Jaysen
Ha.

I should get it drilled and clear gooped by Tuesday. Then will make the filler once BBC shipment arrives.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:51 am
by Jaysen
Thanks to Jamie at BBC my pocket is lighter. Decided to make one big order....

Paint scheme for Lil Bit (based on what I've ordered!)
Hull Bottom: Graphite black (will extend slightly up bow)
Hull Sides: EMC Fighting Lady Yellow
All interior: EMC Oyster White
Rub rails: EMC Oyster White for now
Lettering: Dark Green
Upper sections of Dagger/Rudder: EMC Fighting Lady Yellow


Also on its way
1.5gal FAST EPOXY (I'm tired of being the slow guy)
More wood flour
1yd 10oz woven
Non-skid additive
Silica for pluggin' the holes some idiot keeps making (I'm looking at you FUZZ! even though you didn't even do it)

Did find a decent supply of wood for the mast and spar. Need to decide on that or Dwyer alum. I'm leaning toward the wood. "I made it" has a certain appeal to me at this point in the process.

Need to pull the rudder out from under the weights I have it under to see if it removed the bend. If not I need to figure out a new plan for a rudder. Had about a 1/2" deflection over the length before weighting. Tonight will be coating more things with straight epoxy and checking the rub rails. My get a few holes started IF it is really hard.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:19 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:51 am
1.5gal FAST EPOXY (I'm tired of being the slow guy)
Silica for pluggin' the holes some idiot keeps making (I'm looking at you FUZZ! even though you didn't even do it)
Watch that fast in your weather! It will be fast. And watch closely for signs of bluch.
Bet it was the first time you found out your screw was too long :lol: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:31 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:19 pm
Jaysen wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:51 am
1.5gal FAST EPOXY (I'm tired of being the slow guy)
Silica for pluggin' the holes some idiot keeps making (I'm looking at you FUZZ! even though you didn't even do it)
Watch that fast in your weather! It will be fast. And watch closely for signs of bluch.
Bet it was the first time you found out your screw was too long :lol: :lol:
It was quite the surprise to everyone! :oops:

The fast will be 90% used to make medium except on days like this week where I'll be working at temps decline to the overnight. Really what I'm wanting to be able to do is have things hard enough to sand in less than 2 days. This is particularly critical with the upcoming graphite bottom. Need to do it quick per the CL method.

Other then the facial condition, I'm still not sure what blush is. How do I detect it? Prevent it? correct it?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:04 pm
by terrulian
Do a Google search for amine blush, which will give you a better response than I can. But the epoxy sold by Bateau has little if any blush. A quick wash with a Scotch-Brite pad will take care of it. If you work wet on wet it is not a consideration.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:56 pm
by Jaysen
Annnnd nothing is hard enough to remove clamps. Looks like today will be spent plotting tomorrow's activity.

Tony, I'll look that up. Give me something to do on the one night I had lots of time to work on Lil Bit.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:15 pm
by jacquesmm
The slow hardener is virtually non-blushing but the fast blushes a little bit. A lot less than the WEST epoxy but still a little bit.
Wash the amine blush off with a wet rag and/or a light sanding followed by a wash with water.

Amine blush is a residue of the epoxy reaction. During the cure, a small amount of amine migrates to the outside. It must be removed because it keeps the next layer from bonding to the cured layer.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:58 pm
by Fuzz
One of the first places I saw what I believe to be amine blush was doing a graphite bottom. When I ran my fingers over the cured surface I could see what looked like a thin film of cooking oil. The black shiny surface really made this stand out. That is about the only time I have seen it. All of my epoxy has been fast except some of my last order I used on my transom.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:43 pm
by Jaysen
Is creation of "blush" related to the speed/vigorousness of the reaction?

In the mixing of fast and slow to make "medium", can the ratio of fast and slow be used to tweak the rate of reaction? More fast for a fast medium, more slow for a slow medium?

Also I'm assuming that a 50/50 ratio of slow/fast igoves a true medium. Is that correct?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:29 pm
by Fuzz
It is my understanding that it is the fast that causes the blush. I do not know if the medium will blush or not. I have never mixed two different harnders so I know nothing about how it will work out. I do know some resins are advertised not to blush at any speed. If you are not sure sand and wash is probably the safe thing to do. It is pretty rare my glass work does not need some sanding so I am covered :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:57 am
by Tungsten
I may be wrong but i believe you should wash first as sanding wont remove all of the blush.If you have blush and you sand first it will gum up the sand paper pretty quick.

A side note,years ago i did some testing of different hardeners and epoxies.I found fast to be a little more brittle then slow when it came to destructive testing.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:41 pm
by terrulian
Yes, wash then sand.

Speaking of epoxy strength, awhile back on this string we were speaking of using the right epoxy thickeners for the job, which is what I and I'm sure most of us do. However, for a long time I have wondered just how much the microballoons weaken the glue joint so, using the marine epoxy from Tap Plastics and their slow hardener and microballoons, I glued together a couple of scraps of Meranti. I didn't do a careful job; I didn't, for example, sand and clean the wood with something like acetone. I mixed up the goop about mayonnaise thickness and clamped it for a couple of days since it's been cold here.

Image

Then I broke it apart using a hammer.

Image

You can see we have substrate failure, meaning the glue was stronger than the plywood. This is only one trial, not the least scientific, and doesn't do a thing to contradict what everyone knows, which is that other fillers are stronger. But nevertheless, it shows that it isn't like putting the boat together with masking tape.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:16 pm
by pee wee
terrulian wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:41 pm This is only one trial, not the least scientific, and doesn't do a thing to contradict what everyone knows, which is that other fillers are stronger. But nevertheless, it shows that it isn't like putting the boat together with masking tape.
Don't you need to do a sample with masking tape before you make a sweeping statement like that? :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:24 pm
by terrulian
Woa, pee wee, I read that and slapped my forehead with my hand. duh. What was I thinking?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:46 pm
by Jaysen
as in "interesting study" I may break out a scale and do some glue ups with different fillers to test "by volume". Weight can be a big issue (think FS or portables) so knowing that using Q grams of wood flour has a strength close to Y grams of micro balloons might be useful. It also would have been a help to me know have something like that for mix ratios in general. I'm certain I used to much/little filler and never "the right" amount.

Then again, I'm lazy. And I have a boat to finish so I can go fishing. priorities...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:01 pm
by terrulian
Assuming you're gluing and filleting things like frames to hull/bottom and using wood flour, the correct mixture is whatever gets you the most workable viscosity, not too runny, not too thick. Beyond that you're chasing your tail.
For fairing, same thing. Sometimes you want a runny mix to flow into a void, and other times you want it not to sag. Too much to discuss here but you can do this yourself just by experiment. A lot of guys get to that point and just use Quick Fair so they don't even worry about it other than to get the proper proportion of hardener.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:16 pm
by Jaysen
Called my order in on Monday. Box waiting for me on the step tonight. I can't get anything delivered in 5 days and you guys got it on my door in two.

You guys are killing all my "can't work on it tonight" excuses.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:04 am
by Fuzz
So that means you will get something done tonight...............with pictures to prove it :wink:
On the boat that is :lol: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:41 pm
by Jaysen
Heck no.
1. Did you notice when I got the package? The Boss demands time. Apparently this week it is evenings.
2. forum gallery is going to be down. I will be ... :sad: ... if it is the cause. Its very handy
3. Have you not realized that I'm a lazy bum?
4. Rain and cold the next couple of day. Should be sunny but cold on Say so the fast will be used!

Boss has agreed that IF an sb18/vg18 is authorized a formal shelter shall be included. No more of this weather excuse will be allowed by the slave driver.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:02 pm
by Fuzz
If you do build something take lots of time and think it through. I know your needs and mine are way different, weather for sure, but I wish I had taken the time or just known more before building mine. I am sure lots of the guys here will have good advise also.
Now for a little pressure.............you going to have that thing in the water this summer :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:08 pm
by Fuzz
This should make you feel better. It is March and I just checked the outside temperature.........minus 10. Now is the time to be doing some feeder king fishing but there is no way I am going fishing in this crap :help:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:28 pm
by Jaysen
next build is a ways off... Lots of planning (and fighting with county) will occur before anything actually starts. the big things I see as needed
1. "gantry crane" type lifting capability
2. solid floor
3. level floor
4. Walls that can be retracted some how

I'm sure there are more things, but those are the ones that I see as being "required" down here.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:29 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:08 pm This should make you feel better. It is March and I just checked the outside temperature.........minus 10. Now is the time to be doing some feeder king fishing but there is no way I am going fishing in this crap :help:
Wife left the house in her winter coat.. 62°F. Lots of folks heading toward the fishing grounds. Not me. no boat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:23 pm
by Jaysen
Son of a... and no, I'm referring to a tool.

Filled the flask, got on an emergency call, went to get up... flask is empty and I can't get the screw gun on the screws. I'd blame CL, but he's dry and we didn't get a chance to visit. Must be Fuzz's fault.

Since I'm not safe to work (or drive, or cook, or stand up) I've been thinking about how to address my rudder. Looks like about a 1/2" deflection on the trailing edge of the rudder. I'm not sure it is salvageable. What are my options here? As I see it...

1. Remake from scrap
2. Make from FG (Peter C fin method)
3. Use FG over ply

My thought is that since I'm leaning toward a lifting/cassette style, #2 would reduced the overall width of the upper.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:05 pm
by Fuzz
Do nothing, run it as is. That way you will always end up back where you started :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:50 pm
by Jaysen
That would not satisfy the boss. She's kind of hoping that there's a one way trip in my future :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:02 pm
by Fuzz
:lol:
I am pretty sure they are all that way at times.
I asked mine when she was going to run me off. Did I get never I love you or something like that, NO :!: Her answer...........no point, too much trouble to train another one. :roll:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:17 pm
by terrulian
Interesting problem on the rudder. Have you posted photos of it?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:23 pm
by Jaysen
Not yet. Added a bit more weight. Will take a few tomorrow and see if it springs back less. I'm expecting it's a lost cause.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:30 pm
by Fuzz
Not sure without seeing it but could you kerf it enough to pull it straight? Use a 2x or something to hold it straight and then fill the kerfs and glass over it :doh: Pictures will help but I could be way off base here either way.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:48 pm
by cape man
Post a pic. Epoxy fixes anything.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:14 am
by Jaysen
I little material porn...

Topcoats with brushing activator/reducer
584

Wood flour, silica, non-slip additive, 10 woven and ... drumroll please ... FAST HARDENER!
585


Back to real business... on the table I can see that it's actually "twisted". I think it's more that' the bend is along a plane the runs diagonal through the rudder. I'm also not sure if the bend is flat on the plane of the rudder. It seems a little more conical. When "high spot down" there is rocking on multiple corners. Here's the photos.
586

587

I was thinking about the kerf idea. The S.O.B. tool doesn't make much of a kerf. A jig saw isn't real good at not cutting all the way through a board. I'd pull the router but I think the kerf would be too large without a 1/8" downcut bit. That would leave a clean surface but is not good for a rabbit cut like that.

In looking through the scrap pile I don't have enough 3/8 to make a rudder per plan. I'm also thinking that making a cassette style lifting rudder changes the need for shape/thickness. I straight blade would make the cassette easy to make. Not sure on the thickness but math would suggest that the cassette would add stiffness to a thinner blade.

Luckily I have other things to do today and the rudder problem can wait.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:41 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, glad your EMC order arrived!! Have a good Sunday. Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:06 am
by pee wee
First tool that comes to mind for kerf making would be the circular saw.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:15 am
by Jaysen
Yes. But when one doesn't have one, one tends to be creative :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:24 am
by pee wee
Well, next easiest would be to borrow one! You could use a hand saw, table saw, roto zip or dremel, angle grinder . . . what are the choices?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:01 pm
by Jaysen
If push comes to shove I'd pull out the hand tools. Rip saw and chisel would be the fall back for me.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:54 pm
by Fuzz
If you can not fix it will you just throw it away? If the answer is yes then you might as well go ahead and try to kerf it. What do you have to lose? The SOB is not the tool for this job. Surely some one near by has a curricular saw?
I got to ask.............how did you manage to warp that to start with :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:13 pm
by Jaysen
Never under estimate the ability of an idiot!

I've been thinking of how I did that. Here's what I've got... I think that part was unevenly supported at glue up. I had weight setting in the middle to provide pressure and the bottom was supported by the deck. In looking at old photos my guess is there was a low spot under the weight. I would verify but that section of the deck met its demise due to hurricane Matthew.

As to why I wouldn't bother... since it is a compound/complex warp (not in plane, think conical) then the kerfing and tension needed to straighten is equally complex. Kerfs would need to follow relief angles as measured from the point at the apex. While I'm sure I could model that, simply thinking about it would take me longer than building a new blade.

If all you read there was "blah blah blah" then we are on the same page. I'd use the "scrap" rudder for cleats or other things.

Now that folks are opening up the homes for the summer I'm sure plenty of saws could be barrowed. If I wasn't on "probation" from my last trip into town I could just get one. That would be the easy way out...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:44 pm
by Jaysen
Good lord almighty. Fast epoxy is fast!

I really like the silica mix. I was able to get a nice "wax" to fill holes. Worked into the holes very smooth and with no sag that will require more than a sand and touch of fairing mix. Did lose most of a 3oz mix to of melting my hand when it went off in the bowl ("self, did we take up smoking?" "No we did not." "Then what is the burning sensation in our left and the this smiley vapor in the breeze from?").

Going to add a touch of slow to it on the next batch to get more working time.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:08 pm
by terrulian
Fuzz has the right question; if you're going to toss it anyway why not give it a try?
But after considering it, I think you're right about it being quite a piece of 3D geometry to come up with a kerf design. What you could do is, like Fuzz says, borrow a skilsaw and put some kerfs by eyeballing the high spots. When it becomes flexible enough to make flat with some bricks on top, wet out the surface, then mix up some slightly thicker goop with wood flour, spread to make sure the voids are filled, then cover with a piece of cloth and wet it out. Put a piece of Visqueen on top and then a flat board and lots of weight and then cross your fingers.

On the other hand, like the old song says, doctor says you'll get better but you'll never get well.

It's a real drag you don't have enough plywood but if that process doesn't work I think I'd bite the bullet on this one and start over.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:46 pm
by Jaysen
I really like that silica stuff. How is it for strength?

I thought about Fuzz and Tony prodding and said "why not?" Went inside and thought about how to do the mapping for kerfs. 3D scanner and surface mapping would be nice. Now that I live here, no access. A 3 axis CAM on sense mode with a pressure sensor... nope. Flip it and rock to find axial line! Low tech solution.

Went inside and flipped it. No corner is touching thing rocks no matter what edge you press. That means it's worse than a cone... it's a spheroid deform. I had to try real hard to fork it up that bad.

I could probably get it straight in one direction. Easiest will be on the vertical (long). Problem is, that still has me going in circles. To straighten it out on the horizontal will require kerfs along vertical axis. I'm still trying to see how I can figure those kerfs out.

Makes me wish for my old jointer and planner...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:21 pm
by Jaysen
And I'm sold on fast. Excluding my "medium" mix, all the epoxy I put on is "dry" enough for wet on wet. Not quite hard enough to sand but clearly a move in the right direction. I need to tweak the medium mix to learn the ratios for various temps...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:35 pm
by terrulian
Don't worry about silica for strength.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:56 pm
by Jaysen
Just looked up the chart from Peter. I may start using this stuff for more things. I really like the consistency. I think I'll try it for fillets on the seats and skeg. I'll stick with the wood flour for gluing them though.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:24 pm
by Fuzz
I got it! Let me help you out :D Tell SWMBO you built her a new fancy snack tray for when the men are over drinking rum, pondering boats and solving the rest of the worlds problems :lol: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:36 pm
by Jaysen
Snack tray? That would imply a few things:
1. She gets snack for us.
2. She lets them come in the house
3. She doesn't run us all off with a broom.

I think I'm going to focus on the cassette part if the lifting rudder for now. Then I'll figure out the blade once that's down. Why deal with it today when it will be just as difficult to deal with later?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:04 am
by pee wee
Jaysen wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:46 pm Went inside and thought about how to do the mapping for kerfs. 3D scanner and surface mapping would be nice. Now that I live here, no access. A 3 axis CAM on sense mode with a pressure sensor... nope. Flip it and rock to find axial line! Low tech solution.
Went inside and flipped it. No corner is touching thing rocks no matter what edge you press. That means it's worse than a cone... it's a spheroid deform. I had to try real hard to fork it up that bad.
I could probably get it straight in one direction. Easiest will be on the vertical (long). Problem is, that still has me going in circles. To straighten it out on the horizontal will require kerfs along vertical axis. I'm still trying to see how I can figure those kerfs out.

Makes me wish for my old jointer and planner...
Methinks you're over complicating this. If you can get the long axis close to straight that's probably all you need to worry about. Don't forget you can always grind down with coarse grit, and build up with scraps and epoxy. Then again, if you want to just be done with it, build a new one and be more careful! :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:22 am
by Jaysen
Of course I am. That's the way I do things.

I'm still not sure I'm going to give up on it yet. It's still sitting on the table watching us eat. I'm actually thinking that I could use it as a core by just grinding it flat and then wrapping with glass. Much as you suggested.

Still not sure how this shape turns into a lifting rudder though. Still thinking that through.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:53 pm
by Jaysen
It's not warm. At least not my my standards. I'm sure Fuzz would be out in a speedo if it was this temp up his way, but I'm a soft southerner now.

1. Put some straight fast on the seats prior to install. Will get to do a pile of sanding on them because thick resin needed preheated but stupid was impatient.

2. Worked on rub rails... Someone remind me, do we build boats or sand them into existence?

3. Contemplating better method to fix my rub rail laminating mess. I "think" I'm going to create a dam on the outer edge, then use a router trim bit along the side panel edge to get flush. Follow that with a small radius rounder to reduce edge (except at oarlock locations... I have edge mounted).

4. Contemplating rudder still. Since i'm already sanding my boat into existence, I'm seriously considering a straight up FG blade. use my good left over ply to make the cassette and leverage the ability to really control the FG to make the blade exactly how I'd like it. Once I get something like a sketch done up I'll post it here for folks to scoff at.

Tomorrow should get some more sanding or filling in depending on how you all react to my #3 up there. I'm expecting to hear it's a bad idea, but even a blind pig finds the trough every now and then...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:14 pm
by Fuzz
Me and a speedo have never gone together no matter how hot :lol:

How about posting a picture of your rub rail problem. I am not sure I understand the problem without a picture.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:41 pm
by Jaysen
Not a problem, just the natural result of not using pins to ensure alignment as well as not being perfectly cut strips. Results it some strips being high in spots and some low. Only real problem is when the low is on the outer strip. Then I'll need to build it up to level, hence the dam idea.

Eventually I'll stop being lazy and actually post a pic of it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:42 pm
by Jaysen
And I'm sure the universe and all it contains thanks you and me for never getting near a speedo.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:50 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:42 pm And I'm sure the universe and all it contains thanks you and me for never getting near a speedo.
Wife told me when a man and woman are out together it is very important that she looks good. As for the man he only needs to look a little better than a monkey :lol: So when she does not like something I put on I remind her "hey I look better than a monkey" :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:56 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:50 pm As for the man he only needs to look a little better than a monkey :lol: So when she does not like something I put on I remind her "hey I look better than a monkey" :D
Mine recently replied "says who?"

I had no reply.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:10 pm
by terrulian
Not a problem, just the natural result of not using pins to ensure alignment as well as not being perfectly cut strips. Results it some strips being high in spots and some low. Only real problem is when the low is on the outer strip. Then I'll need to build it up to level, hence the dam idea.
I probably did't have quite as much variation because I evened out the laminations on the rub rail with with a block plane without difficulty. I like the dam idea but make sure to put packing tape on it so the dam doesn't become part of the boat...that is if I understand what you're doing. Yes, please post pictures so we can see what's going on.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:28 pm
by Jaysen
You've got the idea. My plane isn't up to it. Seems my jigsaw skills just aren't what they used to be and I have up to 1/4" variance. Stack a plus and a minus and you wind up with a 1/2" mess.

My plan for the dam is actually use tape and card stock. Use the card stock to create stiffness, loop tape over it and tape to rubrail. Use silica thickener and pour in with some spatula smoothing. Would make it a little thin to help it flow.

I should probably run the router over the rail first to lower all the high spots. That would reduce the amount of epoxy trapped when I pour it. Hmmm. That's something I can do now.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:03 pm
by Jaysen
Well, looks like I need to go buy a router bit or three. No idea where the "good ones" are. The trim bits I've got here have no business near Lil Bit. Run into town already planned for tomorrow. Guess I'll just have to watch a movie and drink some rum.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:28 pm
by terrulian
Gee, sounds tough.
If you create a good enough dam, and you intend to glass over it anyway, it shouldn't involve a horrible amount of shaping.
I did something similar to create a lip on the bow because the rubber rub rail I fastened around the gunwale wouldn't mold itself to the steep curve at the bow. This made a proper flange to wed it to. I had to invert the boat and then put the rub rail in place, taped up with packing tape, and made up a fairly viscous mix but one that would still flow, and filled up the gap between the rubber rail and the boat. Then let it kick and removed the rubber rail. It worked very well, so yours should too.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:16 pm
by terrulian
Gee, sounds tough.
If you create a good enough dam, and you intend to glass over it anyway, it shouldn't involve a horrible amount of shaping.
I did something similar to create a lip on the bow because the rubber rub rail I fastened around the gunwale wouldn't mold itself to the steep curve at the bow. This made a proper flange to wed it to. I had to invert the boat and then put the rub rail in place, taped up with packing tape, and made up a fairly viscous mix but one that would still flow, and filled up the gap between the rubber rail and the boat. Then let it kick and removed the rubber rail. It worked very well, so yours should too.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:48 pm
by Jaysen
Pictures taken. Gallery down...

Stupid cold wave. Nothing is happening since some idiot forgot to put the very ends of the rubrail on (less than 8" at bow). Should be warm enough to do tomorrow. If I wasnt forbidden to bring the epoxy into the house I'd try to get it on today.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:21 pm
by terrulian
You call yourself stupid a lot. I talk to myself when I'm working and when it is not "ok, we fair this out and then we'll do the seat," often it's "what an ******* idiot" or something like that but the other day I heard myself saying "you are the dumbest guy in dumbland."

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:26 pm
by Jaysen
Are you sure you aren't me in disguise?

99% of the things going wrong around me are 100% my fault. The other 1% of things, those not going wrong, will go wrong once I touch them in some way. It's just the way the universe reminds me of my place.

In this case I just forgot to glue the last little sections of run rail on. No one else to blame for this.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:46 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:48 pm Pictures taken. Gallery down...

Stupid cold wave. Nothing is happening since some idiot forgot to put the very ends of the rubrail on (less than 8" at bow). Should be warm enough to do tomorrow. If I wasnt forbidden to bring the epoxy into the house I'd try to get it on today.
So what do you call a stupid cold wave? It was -2 here this morning.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:12 pm
by Jaysen
Cold enough that I can see steam off my coffee?

It was upper 40s. Speedo weather for you, end of the world for us ;-) Biggest issue was the water falling from the sky. The wind made the tarp useless as a barrier. No point into trying to do much in that.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:51 pm
by Fuzz
Yep, some days you just got to say it ain’t happening and move on.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:17 pm
by Jaysen
Glued up the last segment of rail layer 2 port and starboard. Used extra glue to fill som of the fiesta prior to breaking out the router and flush trim bit. First thing tomorrow I'll get layer 3 completed and should get the rail top trimmed before evening.

While that's all setting I'll fit, laminate, then glue in the mast partner. That should take right up to the flush trim point.

Once mast partner and upper trim is done, I'll fill any remaining low spots on the rubrail, fillet mast partner under side joint and the partner to rubrail area. While that's still moist I'll wrap the run rail and the mast partner/hull junction with 6"x6oz biax tape.

That will leave the front "deck", mid seat, and rear seat to complete the inside/upper part of the hull.

Once that tape sets I'll flip the hull (should be Sunday afternoon and get to work on finishing the bottom. Skew and dagger box glassing, then fairing. My hope is to have hull ready for paint by Friday. That will let the bottom cure for a week while I'm on vacation (may not be best for graphite layer).

That's the plan for this weekend anyway.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:18 am
by Jaysen
Got my 3mi run in and shower before 7:30. Got outside and finished the last of the rubrail pieces and filling SOME of the excessive low spots with the spare wood flour mix. Used fast so by early afternoon should be able to hit it with the router.

New trim bit acquired. Does anyone know if "consumable tooling" gets counted for records in SC? I doubt this bit will be good after this.

If the boss lady ever makes breakfast, I'll start in the mast partner post consumption of afore mentioned food. I will likely work on the foredeck parts at the same time since all will need sealed and glued. Should get some pics.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:30 pm
by Jaysen
Mast partner inner piece trimmed. Outer measured for inner placement. Glued together and clamped. Not sure how I want to attach it to the run rail though.

1. Make flat spot in rubrail and glue.
2. Just add thickened epoxy to span the outer gap.

The complicating part is my "foredeck" plan that closes the bow back to the mast partner. My plan is to keep them on the same plane and so I would use the same method of attachment. I like the idea of creating a flat spot but I'm not sure that is as simple as it sounds. Spanning the gap is easy and a few seconds with a round over bit will make the glass happy...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:20 am
by Fuzz
What..................your camera break?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:25 am
by Jaysen
How many pictures of epoxy drying do you want to see?

SWMBO looked at it and said, "did you really work in it today or just sit here and drink beer?" Glue should be hard by the time I drag my backside out of bed which means there will be visible change to show by lunch.

I'll even post some glue drying photos for you as well.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:22 am
by terrulian
Yes, the whole bow issue is something that is hard to comment on without some photos. Bring 'em on.
Also, I assume you've checked out all the other strings where builders building your boat or the V10 had creative solutions to the bow/mast partners arrangement?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:45 am
by Jaysen
I'll go get some pics and post them up before I start hacking away.

I did look through the builds. I really dislike the look of the partner when the rail is built up to meet it. I think if come up with a potential solution that will reduce my dislike while simultaneously not cutting the hull side of the rail down. I'll comment more On that when I post some pics in a few minutes.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:41 am
by Jaysen
A couple of pre picture notes:
1. I know the rub rail is ugly. I'm ok with that. I learned a lot and would use a much better method next time (pinned/screwed through hull with all layers in one pass).
2. I never expected Lil Bit to be a beauty queen, but I still have some things I'd like to see a specific way. Much of it has to do with lines getting caught and ease of "hands on" handling of the hull off the water.
3. Some of the parts here are "planning" not "final". Don't get hung up on the front "deck' in particular.

The first picture is close to "what I want" excepting the fact that the outer later needs lots of build up and the round over/chamfer on the partners has not been done. Pic two shows a more realistic image of what will happen once I shape the rub rail to match the hull lines. I want a smooth transition up to the partner to prevent line snags while fishing and to prevent any surprise cuts while manhandling the hull into the water.
688

689

My plan is to use a flush trim bit to follow the hull panel (cnc kit cut) with the router base on the rub rail exterior surface (bearing on CNC cut part). This will angle the rail to match the hull lines in two dimensions in one pass. This pic shows how much will be removed and the final angle about midship. I'm ok with this area since that will provide oar clearance and will be smooth all the way to the mast partner. The angle here is a bit deceptive. Use the house or fence in the background to see the vertical and set the horizontal.
693

This is the sharp angle at the bow... this will take a LOT of build to meet the planned decking.
690

Heres a small, incomplete mock up of the decking using the unused front seat. The plan is to flat mount some 3/8" to prove a tie down area for crab traps and a shelter spot for things that might not like getting wet (12v batt, clothing, wood for cooking). Plan is to use dry bags and some straps (to the bottom of the deck) to keep things from banging around. I will put a layer of light glass over the partner and the deck to make it one piece and to protect it from some impacts.
691

This is the untrimmed area under that decking. That gap will expand to 3/4" once I trim it with the router. This seems like a lot of wasted epoxy/silica to fill all that back in. I'm not so worried about strength as I will be putting some 6oz biax to hold it down inside and out. I just seems silly to cut all the wood out to just fill it back in with epoxy. Add to that my desire to have a flush transition up to the mast partner and... There's a reason I'm scratching my head on this.
692

These are the only two actual photos of something getting done from yesterday. Photo 1 is fitting the lower partner. Photo two is showing the "test fitting" with proposed glue locations. If you noticed in the first two photos in this post, those sections are glued up, but the upper was never trimmed to length. I will trim it with a flush cut followed by round over once it is glued down. I did it that way to make sure I had a line that followed the hull as close as possible. I figured "what the heck, I'm going to flush cutting all this anyway..."
694

695

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:48 pm
by Jaysen
Holy mother of biscuits and gravy!!! I win one!

So I set up some stops to keep me from screwing it up too bad.
696

697

Then we get to business.
1. NEVER EVER EVER skimp on your router bits. Is Freud the best? No, but they are pretty damn good.
698

2. Routers need to be a few things
a. well built
b. soft start
c. virtual indestructible.
d. manageable for the job.
Enter the much maligned 1.5hp porter cable. Perfect for this type of hand work
699

3. This will probably be the only time you see me wearing "safety gear". Why? Because I will be taking the chips straight to the face. Routers aren't to be trifled with when you are looking down on the spinning bit. Or ever really. While I find the router to be my favorite power tool it is also the one the scares me the most. Super easy to get into trouble especially when you have crap in your eyes and face. That said, everyone should wear safety gear as they see fit.
700

And then we hit the power button...
701

702

I stopped at the first stop on both sides. On port you work stern to bow, on starboard you go bow to stern. Wanted to make sure I could be "good" in both directions. I'm thrilled at the results. A few bumps and dips due to junk on the hull panel or me being slightly off on the awkward angle. Once I get done with lunch I'll do the mid frame to aft frame while I beat myself in the head on what I want to do with the bow.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:00 pm
by terrulian
I wrote the thing below before I saw the latest photos. I have that same router.
Looking good. If you take care to make sure that the surface the roller is contacting is pretty pristine, you'll have the best result. I presume you've done that. Otherwise there will be ripples.

Here's my previous response:


OK, two questions:
1) You say "light glass over the partner and the deck to make it one piece and to protect it from some impacts." Do you mean to fill that gap between the breasthook and the partners, which looks to be about 4" with light glass? I guess I don't follow.

2) I get that you want some kind of dry storage but as to the battery, you say you're just going to have tie-downs of some kind? Will the battery be in a box? I would think you would want a vertical panel behind the deck section forward (breast hook) to enclose this area, and then a hatch of some kind, even one you construct yourself. I don't know what size battery you're planning, but in a little boat like this it is not ideal to have a lot of weight right at the pointy end.

With regard to the gap you intend to fill between the partners and the gunwale, demonstrated with the square: Why not just take a bevel gauge and measure the angle, and then create a wedge with a table saw and stick it in the void with some thickened epoxy; then shape with the router or a rasp? What you're suggesting will work too but will use quite a bit more of the expensive stuff.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:17 pm
by Jaysen
That seat is just a place holder. The final deck will span the gap entirely. That or I'll leave the gap and NO glass will span it. Want to sit in it a few times and see how hard it is to reach the pointy end (where dry bag with clothes and sleeping roll will be). The glass is just to protect the decking from traps and other gear being dropped/lashed there.

Battery will be a very small 12v lawn tractor type. Used to charge safety gear and run any 12v things that don't have built in battery. I don't want to put in a hatch/bulkhead as I'll need the open length. The "heavy stuff" will all be aft.

90% of the time there will be nothing under the deck. I only expect to stow stuff there if I'm going out on an overnight. I'm actually starting to question the sanity of the deck at all. A couple dry bags lashed to the mid seat would keep them out of any water that accumulates. My thought was that the deck would shed any spray ensuring dryness. The battery could be in a box taken off a motorcycle or even a real marine box attached to the aft frame. The downside to no foredeck is a lack of good stowage for crab traps. But that's less of an issue than it used to be...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:21 pm
by Fuzz
Whats with the weather worries? I thought the weather was always perfect in Florida :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:34 pm
by Jaysen
In Florida it might be. But I'm in SC (CL area).

Less about weather than ocean swell spray. I can't get to any fishing without crossing areas that are open to the ocean. And, to admit my stupid, I plan to head out to the near shores stuff at some point (5-6mi). While I know Lil Bit isn't going to be slamming into 20' waves like do up there in the tundra zones, I still think it's prudent to plan some "protected" storage.

And to make sure I'm paid up in my life insurance.

And when the weather does get silly down here the rain goes sideways. And we give the wether names. Like Matthew. :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:44 pm
by Jaysen
I think tony is right on he wedge idea. No table saw, but I should be able to get close enough with the hand saw to reduce the need for the table saw. I'm also thinking that I need to see how wet she is before I commit to the foredeck. I hate the idea of adding it later but there are too many questions on need in my mind right now.

I finished to mid frame on both sides. Moving to parent stop and will think about the foredeck again befor I go forward of that.

Tony, that router is just about perfect for everything a non pro would need. I used to have a table for it and was able to turn out decent, but simple, trim molding for furniture. The new version of the model seems to have more play in the shaft bearings after moderate use though. They are cheap enough that I'm not sure it's a real concern for the home "carpenter".

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:15 pm
by Jaysen
Dang you Tony!

Now that I'm done with everything behind the mast partner I made the mistake of saying to myself, "self, did you ever see how far you can reach under that deck?" To which I replied, "shut up!" After several minutes of the silent treatment self said, "you know, if we clamp it all back on we can sit in it and pretend to be fishing..." some girlish giggling was followed by some fake rowing and a few test casts. The pretend caption hollard "drop anchor and prepare my run!" The first mate scurried forward and yelled "kill the carpenter! No one can reach the bow anchor under the foredeck sir!"

I'm sitting here thinking that shortening the deck won't help. It's the mast partner that is the problem. The idea is still valid for stowage but anything in the bow will require completely removing everything else. Not sure that's a problem but it's giving me pause.

How is this Tony's fault? I was thinking about his implication that the idea was better served with a hatch and wanted to prove him wrong.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:20 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, I really enjoy reading your posts!! Hope your son is doing well!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:39 pm
by Jaysen
I figure if they aren't educational they should be humorous.

That dinglebat. First he's jumping out of airplanes. Then helicopters. Now he's snowboarding. You'd think he'd get enough thrills at some point.

He's doing great. Starting to get "a crew" of older but still single guys to hang out with. As "the kid" he's the DD so isn't spending much money in stupid things. Makes mom and dad proud to see him really having a life on his own.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:10 pm
by Jaysen
Well...

Here's what I ended with after running the flush to the point where the mast partner is located. I kept looking at it thinking "there has to be a better way to do this"
704

705

Eventually I just said "fork it" and ran the bit all the way down the rail end to end. That resulted in this at the bow
706

Oddly, the mast partner fit much better.
707

This leaves me with the gap to fill. It is smaller than anticipated... less than 1/2" ... and I'll just fill it with thickened epoxy.
708


At this point I'm abandoning my deck plan and going with the default breasthook. Here's the test fitting.
709

710

711

At this point I'm out of time to get epoxy and glass on today. I'm also thinking that I don't want to glass until I've got the bottom of the rail cleaned up a lot. That will require flipping the boat. Just need to figure out if I should "finish" the top with breasthook, knees and mid seat before I flip. Could go as far as painting the inside at this point as well. All the inside needs is a little fairing to cover some tape.

On second thought, I'll wait to finish the inside a bit longer.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:29 pm
by terrulian
That bow looks great! I'm prepared to even go to amazing.
You know, the anchor can be stowed anywhere and the rode can be laid in the bow. You can even cleat off an anticipated length and then anchoring is just a matter of tossing it overboard and letting it pay out.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:44 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks! I wanted to get some epoxy on it but need to either use slow (nooooo) or wait till I have time to get all the filler ready. I'll get some pics with straight epoxy... it will look a even better once the stops "pop".

To get that bow I did have to use a rasp plane and a bit of 40grit. I'm thrilled with the shape and feel all the way down. All the "ripples" are due to me moving my feet not issues with the guide edge. They occur at regular 18" intervals :-)

My anchor plan involved 2 5gal buckets (or whatever will hold 100' of rhode). Cleat will be at mast partner with a pvc guide over the breast hook. Toss anchor over side, throw over guide, let it grab. Raisingg is just load it In the bucket until the anchor hits the bow, release from guide, stow anchor on board.

I did a test fit and while not as sheltered as I like, that breast hook may give just enough for my clothes bag. For now. I can always add more cover later if I really need it. I may be better served with a raised crate covered with a tarp. Right now I'm just ready to get in the water.

I need to decide if I seal the rail then flip to finish bottom, or finish the mast partner/breasthook before flip. Thoughts?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:18 pm
by terrulian
I don't have any opinion on the sequence but in regard to stowage, what percentage of the time are you going to be overnighting when you need a change of clothes? If it is not the majority of the time, I see no problem at all with a couple of dry bags thrown in the bow. No extra construction and it leaves the area versatile.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:26 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, looking really good!! Nice bow!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:10 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:18 pm I don't have any opinion on the sequence but in regard to stowage, what percentage of the time are you going to be overnighting when you need a change of clothes? If it is not the majority of the time, I see no problem at all with a couple of dry bags thrown in the bow. No extra construction and it leaves the area versatile.
Lil Bit is a grocery getter. I need to scout more spots and get the groceries soon. I'm expecting overnights every week depending on tide and weather. Do I need changes of clothes on fishing trips? Not in the sense of looking and smelling nice for dinner. But I do need to be prepared for conditions and gettih dry/warm.

The "clothes bag" contents:
Dry hot weather
Dry cold weather
Emergency rations
Water maker

The "overnight bag" also needs to be dry. Contents:
Wool blanket
Canvas hammock (still making this)
Mosquito netting
Emergency rations
Water maker

My stove is a self contained "rocket" stove that will keeps its fuel dry but it should still be protected a little. Need to make a newer one for Lil Bit though.

Other things that were slated to be protected:
Backup VHF (handheld)
12v batt and electronics chargers
Running lights (portable but need to be locatable fast)
Emergency flares
First aid

I'm big on having things in predictable locations. Being able to put them all under the deck would make it simple to locate in a panic AND easy to make sure they are there before heading out.

If youre keeping track, 100' of anchor rhode, multiple VHF, running lights, flares should start to give you an idea of where this is heading.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:14 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:26 pm Jaysen, looking really good!! Nice bow!! Jeff
Thanks Jeff. If it looks good it's a testament to Jacques methods, his plans, BBC supplies, and the help of the forum. I've assumed all my normal "woodworking" skills should be tossed and intentionally did things as if I didn't know better (I knew that I needed to pin this damn rail laminations).

If I can do it anyone can

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:19 pm
by Fuzz
You remember the line from Jaws "we are going to need a bigger boat" :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:58 pm
by Jaysen
Every weekend there are guys running kayaks out there. I figure I'm smarter than they are.

And bigger boat is already being thought through :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:21 pm
by terrulian
You listed water maker twice, so you can knock at least one thing off your list. I presume you mean a hand pump kind. I would think that would be necessary only in an emergency; you ought to be able to carry enough water for two-three days. I recommend a floating, waterproof VHF, then no worries. You do have quite an inventory there and you haven't listed any fishing gear.

I'm really fond of this project. I more than once did a weekend regatta with two nights camping, where you had to bring everything you needed for survival as you sailed to a beach to camp on with no auto access. You could leave your gear on the beach for the races. I did it in a Byte which is 12 feet long and as you see, not built for cruising. So it's not at all impossible.
Image

(That's not me! I looked waaayyyy better. :lol: )

There are now a couple of big events for boats like yours, one in Florida and one in Alaska, where you have a race of several days and rules require that you must be able to beach your boat. Don't think I'm going to attempt anything like that at my age but it gets my blood up to read about it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:24 pm
by Jaysen
That double count on watermaker was intentional. You can live a long time without food. You only get three days without water. If it floats I'm sticking a water maker in it :-)

And yes, the hand pump type. Light. Cheap. Simple to use.

I intend to get the floating waterproof VHF. One thing I've learned, if you need it to stay alive, you need at least two of them.

My "worst case" scenario is getting cut in half by an idiot in a power boat. Those dry bags will float. The rear end of Lil Bit will float. I've got 2x the chance to find food and water and communication with this plan.

Fishing gear for me is simple
30 6/0 circle hooks
10 each 3, 4, 5 oz egg weights
30 7 size swivels
1 spool 30lb braid
1 spool 50lb mono
1 spool 100lb mono
2x ugly stick 7' heavy
2x ugly stock 7' medium

Bait is equally simple:
7'' cast net
2x 5gal bucket (really 4)
2x high flow water pumps

Bait is acquired in transit. Water pumps cycle water through buckets (sealed lid) and over the side. Once no longer under way, inner bucket goes over side. Inner bucket has 1/4" holes to allow water flow.

I'm making a 3 compartment cooler that will sit in front of the mid seat. R30 styrene lined with glass. Small port section (between dagger box and hull) human food, small starboard frozen bait and guts from catch for crabs, large chamber for caught fish. Dry ice and frozen 2liter bottles for cooling (and drinking).

Electronics on board:
Garmin fish finder + gps tracking (still deciding)
USB chargers (I make them)
Blue tooth speaker box
Camera
Media device
Cell phone

General stuff not listed:
Fry pan
Life jackets
Scale
Tape measure
Pliers
500mph tape
Anchor with 100' rhode
Zip ties. Sh!t load of zip ties
Fire extinguisher

Add the shrinking man (I've lost 60lbs already) and I should be sitting at about 250 fully loaded for a weekend maybe 300. That's today, not once I lose the 45 I've committed to losing this year. Keep in mind that's a full weekend load with no expected access to shore. a day trip much much lighter.

Those dinghy races are right up my ally. I'm not sure why they need to beach though. Do it all on the water!

If I was independently wealthy I'd be sitting on a Shannon 34 cutter rigged ketch starting the trip north for transat. By September I'd be heading into the Mediterranean for the winter. From there I'd follow the vende globe route for a circumnavigation with lots of stops at interesting places.

I'm still trying to get over that seasick problem. Luckily I have time. Independent wealth won't be here for a while.

And yes, I over think things. Everything. All the time. But I enjoy thinking.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:01 pm
by Fuzz
Dang man, you trying to lose 105lbs total? Is there going to be anything left of you?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:19 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:01 pm Dang man, you trying to lose 105lbs total? Is there going to be anything left of you?
Sadly, yes.

5 years ago I was 260lbs with a BP that was 230+/140+ and a resting pule of almost 100bpm. As of today I'm at 200, BP is 113/73, resting pulse of 68. I'm almost completely off the BP meds. I'm committed to the next 45 only because that will put me "at the right place" to live long enough to sail around the world. Will I cry if I only lose 25 or 30? Hell no.

BTW, I was talking to some "health nuts" the other day who were all excited for "the big race" they were prepping for. I asked them what they were doing... "we are going the distance on T days (Tues, Thurs) and intervals on half distance on non T days." "Wow!" I said, "that some serious running." I was thinking that a half marathon 2x a week was a bit of running. "How are you holding up?" I asked. "It a heck of a lot of extra running for us but we are so excited! It just a couple weeks away." Thinking to myself that they mentioned they would be in town the next couple weeks I couldn't think of anything near by that was a 13.6, only some shorter races. At this point they asked me about my routine. "Well, I run 30min every day alternating between intervals and speed, but on day 6 I double the distance. All about keeping the ticker in shape. I've learned to love it." I told them. In a very condescending manner, the 98lb woman winked at her 135lb male partner and said "that's so great, what distance are you up to? mile and a half?" I calmly replied, "I'm pulling 3mi a day and 6mi on Saturdays." the 200lb fat man looked a the now ashen faced boy toy and said, "what race are you doing?" He hemmed and hawed for a moment and mumbled something about a 5k. "Isn't that only a 3.2mi run?" I asked them. they decided that they were no longer interested in talking to the fat guy that is running their "big race" every day at a pace they are struggling to match.

For the record, I'm only 43 and all of 5' 10". Way too young to be flirting with a stroke like I was. If I can beat that I can FINISH THIS DANG BOAT!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:25 pm
by Jaysen
And do you know what the two harvesting things have been?

1. Giving up coffee.

2. LIGHT BEER!!!

I'm not sure it's worth it some days...

Then I see all the Ms on the size tabs of my clothes... Hell yes it is!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:32 pm
by Fuzz
Impressive, good for you. With that much will power finishing this boat and the next one will not even be a challenge.
Don't go tipping over I need my regular dose of humour :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:35 pm
by Fuzz
Beer no problem.
Coffee better to just go ahead and shoot me.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:51 pm
by Jaysen
Lil Bit will stay upright. If I get my way on #2, I'll be disappointed if I'm not in the drink pretty often. SB18 and other boats in that class should be used to push your sailing. Explore the limits of, and then expand your skills. That typically means you walk a very fine line between "in control" and "WHO THE HELL IS DRIVING THIS THING!?!? DEAR LORD WE ARE GOING TO DIE!!!" I know I'm competent to handle Lil Bit in anything short of a hurricane and I can manage one of the big cruisers in normal conditions but I need to get used to abnormal conditions. What better way to do that than flying like a bat out of hell in a Martens/Goossens/Gatehouse boat?

Boat three is the question... VG26 has real appeal. Just need to wrap my head around the idea of living in something that small...

Anyway... I've managed to off topic my own thread. Let's see you beat that!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:49 pm
by Jaysen
Managed to get some epoxy on the freshly exposed parts of the rail at lunch
713

714

Almost makes me think about keeping it bright. Almost.

Hoping to get her flipped, dagger trunk cut/glassed to hull tonight. That will have me starting final fairing at lunch tomorrow. I've decided I'm going to "good enough from next door". Work boat all day.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:36 pm
by Fuzz
A little bit of work boat finish is not the end of the world. With all the works of art posted here I sometimes think there is too much pressure to follow suit. I on the other hand am happy with work boat, maybe because that is as good as I can do :roll:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:18 pm
by Jaysen
You have to remember I'm hand launching. I'm dragging through oysters. I'm using her as a camper (unless the wife is on board, then she's just a little people with lunch carrier). She want make it into the water before she's gouged and scraped. I think that happened to Tony's v10 (sketch on the rocks). I know she's doomed. Takes a load off my mind.

I'll be ignoring the guide coat. I may do it just for laughs, but not for anything else.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:59 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, you have accomplished quite a bit with this build and she is really starting to look good!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:51 pm
by terrulian
I'll be ignoring the guide coat. I may do it just for laughs, but not for anything else.
I wouldn't do it for laughs. There is absolutely nothing funny about it. 8O :oops: :lol:

When I started my boat I was going to go for a workboat finish but things kind of got out of control. She's getting trashed but still looks pretty danged good. However, I reiterate my satisfaction at having made the decision to go for Interlux Brightside insead of the high-priced stuff. With proper application it looks great and no kind of paint, even graphite/epoxy, is going to withstand hauling her up a rocky beach.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:05 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:59 pm Jaysen, you have accomplished quite a bit with this build and she is really starting to look good!! Jeff
Thanks Jeff... more in a minute...

terrulian wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:51 pm I wouldn't do it for laughs. There is absolutely nothing funny about it.
I'm sure once I see how bad it really is, i'll deal with the most egregious parts. I'm just not as interested in sanding as I am in going fishing though.

I did spring for the EMC. That said, she's going to be graphite for the most part. likely only a few inches of yellow under the rub rail. The rest will be graphite black. I'll be using more of the FLY on the interior where it will last longer :)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:26 pm
by Jaysen
Given the conversation last night I was a bit surprised to find this gift from my son... An early birthday gift!
723

She's not so fat that I can't roll her over on my own!
724

The daggerboard trunk was the goal for the evening
725

SOB tool made short and not too messy work out of it.
726

727

A few minutes with the RO and ...
728

729

And she's glassed.
730

731

I'm not too confident in this glass job. I feel that I did not get a large enough radius on the trunk. Lunch tomorrow could be spent swearing and grinding and swearing. Maybe just sanding. I'm never that lucky though.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:48 am
by Fuzz
Glass job looks good from here :wink:
I can tell sooner or later you are going to learn to love that S.O.B. tool :lol:
The rest of your glass on the bottom looks real good. I bet the fairing is not going to be that bad.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:41 am
by terrulian
Whether on not for aesthetic reasons you decide you do not really need a boat show finish, there is a practical advantage to fairing, since smoothness definitely affects sailing performance--as I'm sure you know. With graphite you'll never achieve the kind of surface that racers like, but you will be well served not to leave any real roughness. I agree with Fuzz that it looks good and although any level of fairing takes some elbow grease, you seem to have left yourself with a very good foundation to work with.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:20 am
by Jaysen
Thanks guys. The mess isn't really visible there. I got sloppy above the chine and aft of mid. I either need to break out some 40 and hope I don't see wood or I will use a lot more fairing compound. Even in those pics, you should notice there is quite a bit of pattern in the glass. I stopped sanding when the pattern lines started to get a bit wide so I know I'm not through the glass. I'll need to use some "thing" compound to get that leveled out a bit before I really even think about fairing.

Let me propose a sequence and you all can tell me why it is wrong. For the sake of simplicity "think" is "more epoxy" and "thick" is "more filler".
1. finish all taping (idiot forgot the skeg isn't even glued yet!)
2. 2xthin silica over hull in moderate depth applied with 4"
3. sand back to weave 40g
4. thin silica over hull in thin depth applied with 6"
5. sand to weave 60g
6. thin balloons thin depth applied 10"
8. sand with fairing board 80
8.5 graphite guide coat to justify consumption of extra beer
9. thick balloons super thin applied 10"
10. sand with fairing board 80
11. ???

11 is where I need a bit o' guidance. I'm not keen on dumping more epoxy on the now "smooth enough" hull and having to sand it all clean again. It seems damn near impossible to get a smooth epoxy layer on this thing and if I'm immediately going to screw it up, what was the point of 1-10?

The solutions I see to 11 are
1. Fork it and just graphite/prime right over the fairing
2. heat the epoxy and work in small batches hoping that I don't fork it up with a half kicked batch along the way
3. use a chemical thinner (xylene?) to allow more flow to self level

I expect the answer to 11 will be used with graphite as well.

If all goes well, I should get through #1 at lunch. I'll use fast and it's near 80 today so if should be ready for #2 be evening.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:42 am
by terrulian
What is thin silica?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:19 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:42 am What is thin silica?
Vegetarian?

:)

Runny. Will flow to self level but not run to make drips.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:31 am
by terrulian
You mean the colloidal silica thickener, then?
Your list isn't consistent with a work boat finish. It's going to look great. Maybe you'll even get some satisfaction out of it along with the frustration of continuing to find holidays. I know I did. As I may have said elsewhere, I am sure, knowing me, that if I'd left any obvious crap in the finish of the boat I'd always be apologizing for it. I could not stop myself from impulsively pointing out bad spots even after someone had given me a compliment. Now, the effort necessary to find those spots is prohibitive for anyone I'm likely to ever run into. And if someone is obsessive enough to look that close, I'll just quietly murder them.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:38 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:31 am You mean the colloidal silica thickener, then?
Yes. There are some voids that I think need to have something hard filling them.
terrulian wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:31 am Your list isn't consistent with a work boat finish. It's going to look great.
You may underestimate my ability to hide stuff in photos. I'll get some pics (maybe at lunch) to show you some of the issues. Example... I found a place where it LOOKS like a lines of the weave was completely removed while I epoxied it. There is a slot running diagonally across the hull. I assume that a canyon like that should be filled with structural fill not decorative.

Pics once i get break for lunch.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:59 am
by terrulian
Up to you but you don't need any more strength for the fillers. You could launch the boat right now and it would be plenty strong. You're just adjusting the aesthetics at this point. In his weight estimates for the boat, if I remember correctly Jacques doesn't even include the weight of fairing so a bare-bones build could just leave it out and go, as they say, commando.

The advantage of silica at this point is that it is less runny than microballoons. It's harder to sand, but it's not that hard to sand. I often mix my own goop with microballoons and add a bit of silica if the surface is vertical to prevent sagging.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:18 pm
by Jaysen
I've got straight silica and the BBC fairing mix that includes it. Let me get this self on and thin about it a bit.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:10 pm
by Jaysen
Here the canyon...
732

Skeg is attached.

Reminding myself how it goes together..
733

Stole this from tony but I'm not as ambitious. Found center line via standard bisection. Used T square and spring clamps to create post. On the skeg I clamped a small piece of 1/4" so had to offset post by 1/4" as well. I did a test fit the. Got to work.

Just glued and screwed.
734

Used up the rest of the glue for fillet. Will used silica for the rest of the fillet.
735

736

Back to the day job.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:57 pm
by Jaysen
Things we need to add to "new builder" lists...

1. stock to easily make multiple sizes of epoxy
2. buy fast AND slow
3. 1/2" craft sticks from walmart/micheals/hobby lobby are must
4. KISS it as much as possible
5. Reinvent the wheel with things

skeg is setting up nicely. Will get screws out post 4p. Was informed I "have plans" this evening so I think glassing the skeg is out.

Tony, did you glass your skeg?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:50 pm
by terrulian
Yes. Before you give more apologies for you work, consider this:
Image

See? Pretty ugly. But it's strong. I believe it is wrapped in cloth and then attached with fillets and biax to the hull. I did not put any screws through the hull to secure it. You want it strong, since you're going to drag it up the beach where the entire weight of the boat is resting on the skeg. I also put a runner of bronze on the bottom, as I soon wore through the epoxy/graphite:
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:07 pm
by Jaysen
The screws were to simplify clamping. They will be removed by tomorrow evening.

What weight cloth did you use? I'm looking at that thinking 12ox will not be happy at all. I was thinking of wrapping it in 6ox biax tape (2 layers overlapping at mid points). almost decided to proactively cover with something shiny just to be done with it. need to source it though.

At last check the fast is nearly set up. got to love 80°F weather.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:52 pm
by terrulian
I had plenty of 6 oz. biax left over from the build and used that for attachment; not sure about the cloth but it was whatever I used for the bottom, but maybe two layers.

Here you go for the brass (not bronze) strips.
https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/u ... do?pid=222

It is quite a project attaching it and I would do it now while the boat is inverted. It'll be a lot easier; I had to do it all upside-down.
I'm sure you can figure this out yourself but what I did was:
1) Bend the strip approximately to fit
2) Drill and countersink holes for bronze screws, and drill corresponding pilot holes in the skeg. This is delicate because too much countersinking will weaken the strip.
3) Goop up the bottom of the skeg, I used wood flour and epoxy
4) Wrap the strip in packing tape before attaching the strip with screws while the goop is still wet
5) When the epoxy kicks, remove the strip, which should now reveal a perfect mold
6) Clean up the excess with rasp/sandpaper
7) Mask off the area you wish to protect from the 5200 and spread 5200 liberally on the skeg and strip
8) Re-attach the strip. [apparently 8 with a close parenthesis gets you the shades guy]
9) Clean up excess 5200 with mineral spirits before it dries
10) After it cures, take a file and knock off the edges of the brass screws which will protrude beyond the radius of the strip. Otherwise, they'll catch on things
11) Tape off strip and apply the graphite/epoxy

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:45 pm
by Jaysen
Tony, thanks for the pointers. I'll look at getting that on before graphite.

Note to others... do NOT try to glass your skeg before the important boss meeting. Murphy will kick you in the nuts and have you apologizing to folks for showing up 15min late.

Glass is on. No pic due to aforementioned meeting. In standard "Jaysen method" it is ugly enough for me to be glad no pics were taken. :)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:23 pm
by Fuzz
TopWaters buddy Murphy is not a nice fellow :!: But he is quick, seems to be able to be in lots of places at the same time :help:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:29 pm
by Jaysen
At least I don't have to be worried about a moose trying to off me mid build :P

Looks like a cold front is moving through this afternoon. Not sure if it will set enough for me to clean it up and set a second layer over the mess that's there.

Anyone have pointers on how to knock of the threads when the epoxy is a bit set up but not hard enough to sand?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:09 pm
by terrulian
Not sure of how they're oriented but a utility knife works.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:11 pm
by Jaysen
These are the threads holding the mess together... the woven stuff. I'd need to use the knife like a plane wouldn't I?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:44 pm
by Jaysen
Skeg is glassed down.
753

I can't get tape to bend over the top but I think that will be OK since I've already decided to cap it "Tony's way". Will buy 1/2" wide. Will run from dagger to transom and bow to dagger. May not make it on before I start filling (need to order parts then ship and vacation and blah blah blah).

Lunch tomorrow will be sanding and washing. After work will be the first runny pass at fairing to fill weave and gaps. Only doing the bottom bottom not the sides. Still have to figure out the rubrail bottoms...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:46 pm
by Fuzz
I use a scraper from Lowes. One with replaceable blades. If it is not fully set up it will cut like butter.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:49 pm
by Jaysen
A paint scraper?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:56 pm
by Fuzz
Yep, I have one with a 8 inch or so handle with a knob over the blade so you can push down on it. It is made to be pulled. I will see if I can post a picture of it later today.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:02 pm
by Fuzz
This is the scraper. does a good job if the blade is sharp.Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:46 am
by pee wee
I believe that's called a hook scraper.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:49 am
by Jaysen
I'll have to look into that. I'm also thinking that peel ply may be something I need to consider.

Anyone have experience registering Bateau boats in SC? I want to get the process started sooner than later.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:08 am
by pee wee
A note on the hook scrapers- they work quickly when the blade is sharp, but on soft surfaces those corners can dig in easily and make more work for you filling errant gouges.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:47 pm
by AmbitiousRookie
I wonder if you could grind a small radius on the ends so it doesn't go to a point and still work?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:00 pm
by Jaysen
Bottom sanded. Some idiot forgot to get rags for drying the hull off resulting in beer consumption moving to the top of the priority list.

If it dries soon I'll get some fairing mix on there. I'll try to get a few more beers down to make the outcome interesting.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:35 pm
by Jaysen
Back in town, but no work getting done. 6hr in the ER last night has me sidelined for a week or more. Maybe I'll work on getting the remaining rigging ordered and in hand. That wouldn't require me to "do anything" on the banned activities list.

I tend to look to defender.com. Anyone have better options I should check out? List of things to aquire
* Lines
* Cleats
* Lights
* Anchor
* small blocks

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:37 pm
by Fuzz
Hanging out in the ER does not sound like much fun :cry: They tend to get snippy when you start mixing epoxy there :lol:
Hope everything is ok.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:41 pm
by Jaysen
Making third visit in three days now. If it was anything more than an annoying thing I'd be worried. At this point I just them to give me the better painkillers.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:47 pm
by Fuzz
From your last post I am guessing you got the GOOD stuff :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:27 pm
by Jaysen
This stuff they gave me now gives me cold sweats and honest to god nightmares. "Take these, go to bed and rest... if you can. Bwahahahaha!"

I figured trips to the ER this year would all be boat building, boat sailing, or fishing related. Nope. Just getting old. And it sucks!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:21 pm
by Fuzz
I hope you have better luck than us when it comes to ERs. The local hospitable had my brother in law for a day and a half last week. They were sure he was having a heart attack. After that they decided he needed to be life flighted to the heart institute in Anchorage. After running tests on him they told him "boy that is some case of indigestion you got there" and sent him home. I have lost a little faith in our local hospitable. :help:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:23 am
by Jaysen
Was sent home last night and told "come back Monday, and be prepared to stay a bit of no improvement". Judging by my condition this morning I'll be their ward for a bit.

I lost faith in the medical establishment when it dawned on my that no one is really fighting for curing a patient anymore and just treating symptoms (for chronic preventable stuff). I also discovered that they never ordered the reliable, cheap, thirty year old test when there was a new super expensive and unproven test they could run. I've since met a few retired Dr and they have very little positive commentary on modern hospitals.

I'm sure the business of healthcare is the problem not the people. Just hard to separate the two when you're not well.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:36 am
by topwater
Jaysen other sites to look at for boat stuff , Hamilton Marine , Jamestown Distributors , great lakes skipper .

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:40 pm
by Jaysen
Ok. We are good to make a mess of Lil Bit starting tomorrow.

New "roof" acquired for the work area. Tomorrow at lunch I'll try to get that up. Only have about 45min tomorrow night so I'll focus on cleaning and marking "fix it" spots.

Wednesday night is open so real work should get done. 1 fix any issues with FG. 2 mark up bottom of rubrail for leveling. 3 get at least a start on laying in some fairing around skeg and bottom.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:55 pm
by Fuzz
Good deal! Gives me a chance for some pay back :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:01 pm
by Jaysen
No pics.

Put a thin (runny) fairing mix on skeg tape, dagger trunk tape and as much of the bottom as I could cover. Made it thin to allow a "minimal" layer as I'm just trying to fill up the low spots in the glass still. I'm not sure I'm going to hurt myself making perfect symmetry attempts. I'm actually pretty happy with the result. I'll get a pic before I sand.

I may need to remove a bit of glass at the dagger trunk. Looks like I didn't have enough easing of the transition. Oh well. Murphy got me before fuzz.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:08 am
by Fuzz
you just keep Mr.Murphy busy down there. Don't need him in the north country.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:57 am
by Jaysen
I bought him a plane ticket and helped him pack already. I offered to get him directions, but he said he already knew the directions to your place. By heart. I think his plane lands in about an hour.

:P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:49 am
by Fuzz
You will be glad to know he landed, well rested, and ready to do his thing. I will do my crying in my thread if it comes to that. I plan on returning him, first class, as soon as I can get him booked.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:30 am
by Jaysen
If it makes you feel better, it appears his sister has moved in. And you know how hard it is to get rid of the ladies once the wife starts chatting with them ...

First round of fairing attempts are a bust. I think the problem is that I'm using a "wide for Jaysen" plastic putty knife thing. The edge knicks easily leaving streaks. Not a problem if I was using a thick (high balloon/silica content) mix. But the thin mix is harder which requires 40grit. 40 leaves gouges which requires filling. And we have the ever famous "fairing death spiral" AKA sandaholoics anonymous.

I'm using the thin mix to allow a bit more flow of the epoxy and because it is harder. My hope is that it will level out a bit better and just full the valleys in the weave for now. I'll be purchasing a wider METAL trowel this morning in a hope to get less ridges and to get better smoothing.

One of my fears with going straight to a "thick" mix is softness since the bottom is guaranteed to get gouged and beat up. Is a thick mix going to provide sufficient base for graphite topcoat given the certainty of low speed impact with sharp and pointed things?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:24 am
by terrulian
Depending on the things you expect to run into--for example I don't think it is necessary to protect against enemy mines--you won't find a bulletproof coating. I was able to rub right through the graphite/epoxy layer on the skeg, which has to support the entire boat with just 3/8" inches, on my first handful of outings.

I wouldn't worry about the hardness of the fillers. Use microballoons and don't torture yourself. It isn't as though the abrasions are going to go right through the cloth. I would be surprised if dropping your completed boat three feet onto rocks would do more than cosmetic damage. But sanding doesn't go quickly for anyone. It requires, um, taking the long view. Just forget about there being some kind of watercraft at the end of this process and devote your life to smoothness. There are folks on the forum who use peel ply and claim to do little sanding. Ignore them; they are not normal humans and in fact many have suggested they may be cyborgs or perhaps from another civilization, ancient and alien to our galaxy.

Get the fairing right and if you are concerned add a couple of additional coats of graphite/epoxy at the end. Eventually, when this wears through in places, sand and put on another coat.

Someone on the forum used something like Herculiner--a brushable coating used for truck beds--and was happy with that, if you want to go that direction. You can also buy strips of kevlar cloth for the vulnerable areas, which I haven't done and probably won't, or add a brass strip to the skeg, which I'd recommend.

But for now, epoxy, microballoons, and some colloidal silica will be what you want, along with a will of steel and teflon, and a warehouse of sandpaper.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:03 am
by Jaysen
Oysters. And rocks from retaining walls. Those are the hazards. While an oyster bed may not move, the channels around them move all the time. Add cloudy water, rowing, and the fact that the landing beaches are surrounded and there no way to avoid those things. They are sharp and hard as rock. Lots of folks wind up on the hospital for. It understanding just how sharp and hard those shells are. The rocks (all oyster covered) can't be avoided very easily since they completely surround the launch. I will be bouncing off them a bit.

I know the glass is safe, but I was thinking that a hard base under the graphite might make it a bit more durable. Les chance of fracturing the outer graphite and letting water stray to wear it off. I'm probably over thinking this.

My skeg is 2x3/8 for a 1/2" thickness. Did that to match rudder width as well as make it a bit tougher. I will be adding a metal cover (thank you for the link previously) but that will need to wait. I will run the metal from the junction of the chimes at bow all the way to the transom. There will be a break at the dagger board trunk. I see that keel joint as the most likely to damage point when it comes to impacts in our environment.

12" drywall knife acquired. Off to mix some epoxy and BBC fairing mix and see what kind of mess I can make.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:18 am
by Jaysen
Anyone who builds a boat needs a 12" drywall knife.


These are with the 4in wide plastic one.
859

860

And these are 12" metal
861

862

I did "step up" to thicker mixed fairing compound. It was a bit harder to work with but it did cover more area. I'm thinking that I can step up to 80 or 100gr if it sands like the previous thick batches did. There are a few touch up spots but I'm pretty happy with this coat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:49 am
by terrulian
I found ways of making a mess with all of the different sizes of spreaders.
That hull shape and the stage you're at brings back fond memories! Sure looks familiar.
Are you using a longboard?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:28 pm
by Jaysen
I'm too lazy for a real long board. I'm using 11", foam backed sanding pad. Think drywall sanding pad and you have the idea. Used 1/3 sheet of standard paper.

This is part of my "work boat" finish. Going for "no lumps" more than "perfectly smooth".

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:41 pm
by terrulian
Actually, long board with 40 or 80 on it will remove a lot of stuff pretty fast. I don't think it would represent an uptick in effort but would result in better results faster, even if you are not going to go for concourse-quality. Boards can be expensive but you can make them yourself or Harbor Freight has a very decent one cheap. Then, of course, there's the sandpaper. I still have lots left over because it's cheaper to by it in a roll or box of 50. Again, HF stuff may work OK although I bought mine online.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:51 pm
by Jaysen
I thought about a long board. My plan was 22" for 1/4 ply 2" wide with a couple of blocks on it. Would use 3m spray adhesive (the kind used for stick it notes) to attach strips of standard paper. I've done that in the past and it holds very well. I can fall back to that if my 11" doesn't work.

I think I'll be in pretty good shape actually. The 40 and 60 actually too too much off yesterday. I'm thinking 80 will be just about perfect once this layer sets up. If it's still too aggressive I've got 100 and 220 as well. All I'm really looking to do is knock down the lines from the trowel edges. I think the rest is probably ok.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:09 pm
by Jaysen
11" sanding pad works well enough for me. Still a bit soft so no real sanding, but the areas that were dry cleaned right up. Looks like I have the evening off so I'll start the CL toasts a bit early.

First thing tomorrow I will drag my hungover self out of bed and sand the two bottom panels. After that a bit of touch up and then clean up on the bottoms of the rub rail. If that goes well I might be able to get fairing on the sides. Should make GOOD progress tomorrow.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:59 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, send us some photos when you finish today!! Have a nice Easter!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:05 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:59 am Jaysen, send us some photos when you finish today!! Have a nice Easter!! Jeff
You asked for it.

While the 11" worked, once things cured overnight I decided "God gave us motors for a reason" and cheated with an RO. Remember, I KNOW I'm going to ruin the finish the second I splash her. Also, ROW BOAT. A perfect bottom isn't really needed to meet expectations. Lastly SLOW sail boat. I'm not looking to make 2kn with her under sail. I just don't want to have to row (or pay taxes on a motor or motorized boat) all the time. I don't need or want a perfect bottom.

Here is the bottom immediately after a 50gr RO sanding and wash down. The gloss from the water shows the ripples nicely.
865

866

867

I'm going to call this done with the exception of a few particularly egregious spots. I will go over it with 80gr on the 11" before I prime it.

I've also decided to not stress over the rub rail bottom edge. I'll put a little effort into smoothing and then just touch up and major voids on the innermost layer with silica epoxy. I'm committed to a work boat finish and nothing more.

Once I get some lunch and "CL approved beverages" in me I'll head back out to spread some fairing compound on the ugly transom mess and touch up the bottom spots. Then rub tail for the rest of the day.

Joyful Easter to you as well Jeff. And everyone else too.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:32 pm
by Fuzz
I think you are stressing too much. that is not the worst bottom I have ever seen. :D Prime it, hit the worst spots with quick fair and move on.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:32 pm
by terrulian
I think you're going to do a bit better than 2 knots.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:04 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz, not stressing. Just stating the position I'm in. I did check out a few "work boats" here. Real commercial shrimp boats. I swear they are just a million layers of paint holding the rust together. Not a fair surface to be found on them. I have them beat!

Tony, I'm still plotting to get me a "fast blow boat". My 2kn is just what I need to make the fishing hole and back for a day trip (Paris island point or 4mi offshore artificial reef) LB will almost always have you 6kn tidal current pushing her along on those trips. So she only needs the breeze to move us across the current. And I'm sure Jacques designs can out perform that even if I'm the builder.

As to the "fast blow boat" I've got my eye on a sb18. There a partial hull that I've got my eye on but it will be a bit before i can take on that project. If I do grab the hull, it will be documented here.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:21 pm
by Jaysen
I think I solved my rub rail problem with this little "hack" tool...
870

The idea is to allow me to spread silica epoxy mix that will fill any gap and maintain the rubrail face angles. Here's how it will be used.
871

I've sanded the rails for prep but want to finish the transom fairing before I work on filling the rails.

Anyone see where this is a terrible idea?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:40 pm
by terrulian
Looks more like genius to me.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:50 pm
by Jaysen
The silica should be ok in the spot, right? It's not a high impact zone. It will be painted. I could wrap with glass if recommended.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:19 pm
by terrulian
Microballoons are fine. Colloidal silica mainly is to prevent sags and runs, but in this situation that shouldn't be a problem. I did glass my gunwales but did not continue the wrap on the underside. I was trying to protect them from wear and tear. They will get banged by the oars, or in your case, occasionally by the boom perhaps. That said, the boat will last a very long time without glassing them. It's purely a matter of keeping things a little nicer. But a couple of dings in the gunwales...well, I'm pretty sure Nelson's HMS Victory had a few of those. 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:53 pm
by Jaysen
No boom. Sprit rig. I'd expect more issues from fish poles and such. I think, in the interest of getting her in the water, I'll just put the glass off till ... refit?

I was thinking silica because I'll need it to maintain the corner shape. I thought the anti-sag property would be a plus for the places where I'm building up the outer edge. I've got plenty of both balloons and silica though.

Been thinking about my rudder problem. If I'm making it from straight glass pressed between two molds, how thick does it need to be? It would seem to me that it could be fairly thin given Lil Bit's small size.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:03 pm
by Jaysen
At lunch I mixed straight fast with silica and tried to polish the turds I'm calling rubrails. They aren't perfect. Partially due to the fact that there was a lot to fill and partly due to the fact that it got to the point I was making it worse the more I played with it.
872

873

874

875

Over all I'm calling it a success.

It isn't hard enough to sand and needs at least one round of touch up. I'll work on that tomorrow.

I did work on sanding the transom and a few spots on the sides. No more fairing applied since I need to sand the rails before the next round. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:34 pm
by Jaysen
Got a bunch of sanding.

More hull sanding done. Still ugly as a toadfish so I'll put another coat of micro balloons on her.

Rub rails aren't picture worthy yet. At least one more pass of silica thickened epoxy and my rub tail tool followed by more sanding.

Should be able to get epoxy down lunch time tomorrow. If all goes well sanding tomorrow evening with pictures.

That has me fiddling with primer Sunday.

Fuzz, keep Murphy up here with you.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:28 am
by Fuzz
What do you say we be fair and let Mr. Murphy spend some time with somebody else instead of me and you hogging all his time :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:55 am
by Jaysen
I looked at his 3 year plan... only two names.

And just to prove it's your turn, I just flatbedded the '75 MG Midget to a shop and sourced a new engine. I need to plan it so my saturdays are "watch things cure" so I can get the swap completed. You keep him a while longer please.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:59 am
by terrulian
Jeesh, Jaysen, somehow I missed out on the MG story. That's an addiction almost as debilitating as boat building. I bought a trashed out 69 B in 1981 and re-did everything myself like the body work, upholstery, rebuilt the engine, etc. I had a friend spray it.
Oddly, the SU's and the electrical system never gave me any problems, and the car was very reliable except for one thing: It was for some reason a magnet for disaster. My previous wife let the clutch slip and ran it right into the house, tearing a door off the hinges and severing the main waterline somehow in the process. Then it was vandalized by neighborhood kids who cut the top and spray painted the inside. They didn't even know me so had no reason for a grudge. Then an uninsured guy ran into it so hard when it was parked, minding its own business, that it ended up on the sidewalk. Two of those three ended up being totaled by the insurance company and it was labeled "salvaged" on the pink slip. I felt bad for it because it was always good to me.
Then around 2005 I decided it was time to restore it once again but I didn't want to do it myself this time and by the time I priced everything out, I realized that I couldn't even buy a car that was that crappy for that kind of money anymore. I mean, a $10,000 car that has no airbags, a very marginal heater/defroster, leaks in the winter, has a tractor engine, etc. I took a ride in a Mazda and thought I was hallucinating. The car handled like the MG always wanted to handle. I thought about it and then Mazda came out with a folding hardtop and I was whipped. The B went to a good home, though, and got a thorough restoration. And I can drive more like a hooligan now.
Back to boat building....

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:28 am
by Jaysen
Madge (that's her name, the MG, not the wife...) has been a great car for me. Been a daily driver since I've been here. Everything about her just makes me smile. I did discover that you can NOT let the smile travel to your right foot though. I was heading to Savannah with the boss. The top was down. Mrs was decked out in her "Jackie O" sunglasses, hat and scarf. The sea wind in our hair. The sunlight in our eyes. Huge smiles on our faces. Right foot... too close to the floor. On the way home I noticed "she's just ... not happy, did the timing shift?" I looked down and notice the oil pressure at 20psi. Doing 5500 rpm. Limped her home without doing more than a few dings on the main bearings.

For the record, you can drive a 40yr old car 85 MPH. It's just not smart.

I bought a new tuned engine since I'm not ready to do a rebuild on my own. Yet. Got the exact engine I wanted to build... the '76 high compression block, flat top pistons .04 overbore, .01 over on bearings (allows for the best bearings available), good head with ridges decked and hardened valves/seals, block top decked .005 and cam ground a tad forward. Brings my compression up to 9.3 and sets me up to stop using marine fuel. Also changes the power plant from 68hp to 93hp. I will still have the serial matched engine to rebuild once I have the time and tools. I won't build the original quite so aggressive and keep it more stock.

I have every original part (including the opus) that came on Madge from the factory. I am making her a little happier for the local heat and for running on ethanol fuels. For now she's our little sports car that i need to drive less like a sports car and more like a classic car. :(

If I ever lose her, I'll go with a z4 or a 300z. Both will result in jail time, so the boss is encouraging me to be careful with Madge. I do have my eye on a '47 chevy load master (2.5 ton, dual speed rear, original stove bolt engine) but I need that like a I need another boat... which is the exact excuse I plan to use to acquire said truck... "But we need to pull this SB18 with something... why not something with class and style?"

I expect a couple weeks on the couch after that...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:08 pm
by terrulian
I left my engine stock. I was able to scare myself well enough with that. 8O

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:31 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:08 pm I left my engine stock. I was able to scare myself well enough with that. 8O
B had a little more spank than the rubber bumper A's. Even though mine's a 1500cc block, it actually generates less speed since it red lines at 7K vs 9k. The only advantage to the 1500 (actually a triumph spitfire motor (which is a GM block)) is a bit more bottom end torque. One of popular upgrades is to pull the 1275s from a pre '74 A and then balance to get a 10K redline. Then these rubber bumpers move like a bat out of hell with it's a$$ on fire.

Got fairing compound on entire bottom, port side and most of the starboard side. will get a few pics when i go out to sand later tonight.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:49 pm
by Jaysen
Pre sanding fairing application. Did not cure enough for sanding. As you can see I have a few touch ups on the chimes. Should be ready for graphite Friday night or Saturday morning.
886

887

888

The splotches on the port side (middle pic) are were the stuff started to kick so I quit working it. Figured I'd only make it worse if I didn't move on.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:31 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, you have really made good progress on "Lil Bit"!! Can't wait to see her splashed!! Hope your son is doing well in the Army!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:55 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks Jeff!

Son is shredding paper with the best of them. He's still confused by the "jump with your duty gear"... how the heck do you exit the aircraft with an industrial paper shredder strapped to you?

Seriously though, he's starting to adjust to life in the Army. Not thrilled by current job (fng work) but still happy with his decision to sign up.

If all goes well I'm hoping to have Lil Bit back upright in her cradle by Monday. Should have primer on exterior sides allowing curing while I work on smoothing the interior. That should take a couple of days. If Fuzz manages to keep Murphy occupied I should get some yellow on her next weekend.

Speaking of yellow, here's the color scheme approved by the boss: vertical surfaces (hull sides and frames) will be yellow; horizontals oyster white; run rails, mast, spar oyster as well. That's the plan anyway.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:17 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, just tell him to hang in there!! He is now US Army Paratrooper for life!! You are always well planned!! Color scheme seems really nice!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:52 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff, hang in is what he does. Kid has a will of steel. Makes me proud.

Bottom is "fair enough". Put another coat on the sides. Sanding tomorrow morning and "hopefully" graphite in the evening.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:14 pm
by Jeff
Glad he is doing well!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:21 pm
by Jaysen
Well... got called to shop for Madge. Sanding delayed until this afternoon. See Fuzz, I kept Murphy for you.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:41 pm
by Jaysen
I'm calling her paint ready.

I took these wet to help show the flat spots and such.
892

893

894

895

896

the things that aren't right will be there at the end of the year. There are some rough spots that I just can't seem to get filled. The transom is a bit of a mess still but again, I can fix it later. The areas I care about most, the bottom panels and the chines are pretty dang good. My goal is "work boat" and I think they are a bit better than that. The rub rails still need work, but that can be done much better once I have her upright in her cradle.

First thing tomorrow is masking the sides for graphite. Then I'll get to it. Pics of the mess will be provided.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:52 pm
by terrulian
There are some rough spots that I just can't seem to get filled.
I had some small areas like this that were a mystery, too.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:12 pm
by Jaysen
most of them seem to be where the fabric weave was really really deep. If I decide to try and fix it now, I think I'll just "smash" a bunch of fairing in there and then sand it smooth. Brute force method. Right now... I'm just ready to be done. I still have the inside to "fair" then paint, and seats, mast partner, mast step to complete. I'm still a few weeks out and I really want to GO FISHING!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:13 pm
by cape man
Looks good to me. :wink: Fishing sounds better than fairing.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:23 pm
by Jaysen
cape man wrote: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:13 pm Looks good to me. :wink: Fishing sounds better than fairing.
Amen!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:44 am
by Fuzz
slap some primer on that puppy and take her fishing. :D You can always flip her back over and work on it more. Be good to have a break. :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:30 am
by Jaysen
Oh no... Mrs declares "you can go" and she's already stated "your boat will be yellow". That means if she ain't yellow she ain't done. She never said Lil Bit had to be pretty! I've already won that argument.

Keep in mind that "winning" is subjective. While I don't have to have a pretty boat, it sure would be nice to be allowed into the house again.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:03 am
by Aripeka Angler
You're doing pretty nice work for a rookie :P
Just razzing you on your birthday, have a good one :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:05 am
by Jaysen
Masked for graphite application!

The temporary bootstripe is 2" from chine and follows the natural curve as closely as I could. I went straight across the transom because lazy. I was going to run some graphite up the bow, but when I had it masked ... I didn't like it. I really like the way the lines run now. I may actually put a real bootstripe on her just because. I think it looks classy. If I do put one on it will be AFTER the fishing this year.
895

896

897

Quick break for some snack (breakfast out with the slave driver later) and I'm ready for graphite. I will admit to some nervousness. What's the worst that happens? I'll get to pullout the angle grinder and come 40gr flap disks... Right?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:06 am
by Jaysen
Aripeka Angler wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:03 am You're doing pretty nice work for a rookie :P
Just razzing you on your birthday, have a good one :D
Thanks. And as far as "rookie", I wouldn't blame Jeff or Jacques for threatening a law suit if I say "this is one of their boats". She's a hull that only a father could love :)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:09 am
by Aripeka Angler
Don't beat yourself up, that's a fine looking boat 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:24 am
by Jaysen
I'm very proud of her actually. I was expecting a lot worse. My "work boat' is more about me learning to say "this is good enough" and then moving on. After this season I plan to give her a "freshen" that will reduce the work boat feel of the build. I did spend a lot of time checking for square, ensuring the bow lines and chines are symmetrical and parallel. The only areas that are really bad are the dagger board box and the rub rails. I have solutions for both but I'm just not willing to delay the fishing much longer. have a freezer to get filled before the fall storms end my ability to get winter stores.

And thank you for the kind words. It does inspire me to slow down and get the graphite right.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:24 am
by Jaysen
Son of a Biscuit!

So coat one is on. Dang thing had lumps in it so bad I almost shot it to put it out of my misery. Luckily I poked at one with my finger and it smudged enough to give me hope. A few swipes with the roller and it was gone. Looked like it never existed. Me being ... me ... I ran back to the mixing area, got a clean 1/2" popsicle stick and attacked ever last one of those bastards like an invading army of carpenter ants. A lot more rapid rolling to smooth it out and the results are livable. I'll post pictures once I get coat three on.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:43 am
by pee wee
I assume you ran the graphite through a screen before using- if so then the lumps are probably because you added the powder to the liquid resin all in one go. Just like making gravy, don't add all the liquid at once- add enough epoxy to the dry graphite to mix into a paste so there are no dry pockets, then add the rest of the epoxy and it should mix up nice and smooth.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:52 am
by glossieblack
Jaysen wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:24 am I'm very proud of her actually. I was expecting a lot worse. My "work boat' is more about me learning to say "this is good enough" and then moving on.
Well said. 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:03 am
by Jaysen
Thanks GB. It's been a hard lesson for me to learn.

Pee wee, I think you hit it. I have been screening, but I'm mixing like fairing compound. I think I need to do it "backwards" ... add wet to dry not dry to wet.

Coat two was a bit better. I suddenly had issues preventing runs. I scored them up but had to hit them with the roller to smooth. Port side is worse the starboard. Primer and paint will cover no issues.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:38 am
by terrulian
There seems to be a bit of variance according to brand. Cracker Larry has a method for the graphite/epoxy which I followed; but a couple of steps seemed unnecessary in my case. I did sift twice but actually the graphite was without lumps anyway. He also recommended letting the mix sit for a few minutes so that the stuff that hadn't blended would sink to the bottom. Again, I didn't find this helped because after some time had passed, there wasn't really a bunch of gunk of the bottom of the mixing pot. I say this not at all to argue with Larry (whose health we are all concerned about) but to show that different brands, weather, etc., may produce different results. No matter what you do, though, it will never look like Awlgrip but it doesn't matter cuz only the fish see it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:52 am
by Jaysen
Pee wee called it. Last coat I used a second mix bowl. Put ALL the graphite in it. Added the epoxy a bit at a time. Clumps were supper easy to see and smash at about 1/4 wet. Once the mix was clump free added rest of epoxy and it mixed perfect. I had the same thing as you T, no clumps in the resultant mix and no lumps after any sifting.

I really like it. I'll let photos upload while I clean up then post with comments.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:03 pm
by pee wee
And as an added benefit, you now know how to make lump-free gravy!

Glad you posted in time for somebody to offer help.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:22 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, glad it ended well for you and the graphite!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:47 pm
by Fuzz
Trying to make up a good ditty for you. All I want for my birthday is a lump free coat of graphite? Best I can do :D Congratulations on the birthday. I see ours are really close together, maybe that is why we share Mr. Murphy so well :doh:
We be waiting for pictures of this graphite thing :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:58 pm
by Jaysen
Here you go Jeff and Fuzz. Lots of ugly on diaplay!

These are all from coat 1. Post "forced smoothing" and reroll to.

Aft port... you can see some of the clumps.
900

Aft starboard is was pretty clean. It got the first out of the mixing bowl.
901

You can see the "not so fair faring on in the aft section here. And the transom coverage.
902

bow is actually straight. Not sure why it looks twisted.
903

more "work boat" fairing visible on forward port.
904

forward starboard is actually no better than port just an illusion of the camera
905


These are final coat. Transom had some runs... BOOOO!!!
906

No clumps so more of a "see the bad fairing" shot on port side.
907

Same on starboard.
908

the bow looks much better than this photo. I really like it in person.
909

Port side had runs and the fairing ripples are visible in this photo.
911

This photo is the opposite... better in photo than real life... bad fairing much easier to see in person.
910

All in all I'm very happy with it. Very happy. I'm off to pull tape and enjoy the rest of the day with the boss lady.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:06 pm
by Fuzz
Dude there is nothing wrong with that :!: You should be very pleased with the way it looks. I know for a fact I can not do any better than that. Looks like you got your birthday wish :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:17 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks fuzz. It's much better than I expected. As evidence I offer this photo of the graphit bottom sand tape!
912

This is very much work boat when compared to CL. But the drool in the corner of my mouth tells me she's not quite true to a work boat finish.

Very happy with this.

I do need to wet sand as the damnable mosquitoes all decided to land on the wet epoxy. All at the same time.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:08 pm
by Fuzz
Really nice Jaysen.
You know some folks are just born craftsmen but not a lot of them. Most get better with practice. Some of the guys have built 3-6 boats. It is natural their work has gotten better with each build. I think too many of us think our work should look perfect the first time. That is sort of hard for anyone to accomplish. Finish this one, take a break, and then build the next one. I am sure it will be better than the last one, no matter how many you end up building.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:20 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, I fully agree with Fuzz that there is nothing wrong with your graphite work!! It looks good!! "Lil Bit" is really coming along nicely now!!! I can see a splash in her not too distant future!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:28 pm
by Jaysen
Current plan is that the next boat will be a sb18. I will do that one "right". Following that we have one of two options:
1. Build a straight vg26 for cruising the Caribbean.
2. Buy a large hull (35+) and refit as a world cruising live a board.

The sb18 will help us decide what we want. I love the size and layout on the VG26. But if we are going to be full time it just isn't going to be big enough (I'll still be working and will need to have "office space"). It all comes down to how we enjoy the open water. I'm willing to risk piling up my toe nails because I really like it. I'd never as the Mrs to do that.

Anyway, you are right. I'm actually surprised at how well Lil Bit is turning out. I've taken shortcuts knowing the results would not be close to CL level. Which is fine for me. I know I'll be beating the snot out of that hull. No point in stressing for perfection only to ruin it day one.

I will really enjoy this boat no matter how she looks. Next boat... that one will be pretty. Very pretty.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:29 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks Jeff. It's all due to the help here on the forum!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:57 am
by Jaysen
Refresh our minds... this is the state of the hull this morning. Man she looks line in the morning sun (makes it really hard to pay attention to the calls with the Philippines, India and EU).
912

I plan to start the wet sand this afternoon as well as cleanup the sides where the graphite ran a bit. Two questions:
1. I don't think I need to feather the tape line since it will just smooth out as I build the top coat on the sides. Is this correct?
2. Given the small nature of the hull, should I just flip her back to right side up, fair up the inside then prime and paint everything in one go?

#2 is kind of what I'm leaning toward. I can mask off any areas that will need glued/glassed and deal with them as touch up. And it will let me get all the painting done in a set of sessions instead of going back and forth between paint, fairing, and curing.

Thoughts?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:16 am
by cape man
The paint should build up to the graphite.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:12 pm
by Eric1
I'm by no means an expert but I'd go with plan 2. It just makes more sense to me.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:53 am
by gonandkarl
I would not flip but paint he sides finished so you will have runs if any not onto the beautiful graphite epoxy

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:45 am
by Jaysen
I thought of that. I was thinking to mask the graphite a bit better than I did the sides... I will use mask tape with paper to endure that any drips stay off the graphite. Peter C did something similar while working on the flyer.

That was my thought anyway.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:06 am
by Jaysen
Last night the boss looks at me...
"Why are you in here and not dust or paint covered?"
"I've been letting the bottom graphite cure and ..."
"That's not what I asked!"
"Can't flip Lil Bit to paint or work on inside until bottom cures. Today is the last day".
"If it's done, WHY ARE YOU IN HERE?!?"
"I need a hand flipping her."
She gets off the couch and walks to the other room. Two shoes hit me in the back of the head.
"Sitting here isn't getting me out to the sand bar. Get those on and let's go. MOVE!" †

Suffice it to say, Lil Bit is now in her cradle right side up. I have a ton of touch up sanding to do before I start smoothing the inner hull and frames with fairing compound. I'll be marking off the areas that need glue for seats, knees, breast hook, and mast partner to make sure no fairing compound gets between the parts and the wood.

Tonight's plan:
1. Sand rub rail of all epoxy "drips" from bottom side build up.
2. Measure and mask mast partner.
3. General sand/cleanup of any other obvious messes.
4. Prep for foam in aft seat.

#4 is where I need a bit of advice. I have coated the compartment with epoxy a few times. But I've also sanded a few times. Do I need to put a fresh coat on there or can I just pour in the mixed foam?

While the wife loves the fictional representation above, she is really a saint. The conversation was more like: "Are you feeling ok today? You look really tired. I can get you another beer if you'd like. I know you wanted to work on Lil Bit... anything I can do to help?" And while I was talking about flipping she got my shoes and talked about how fun it would be to sail out to the sand bar. I have no idea how I wound up with this woman, but I have NOTHING to complain about.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:36 am
by terrulian
I pretty much suspected that your description of your wife was meant to be tongue in cheek but it is honorable of you to clarify it. I also am extremely fortunate in marriage.

As to sealing before foam: The first coat of epoxy will have penetrated and sealed the plywood. Unless you've sanded right through that to bare wood, you should be OK adding the foam without another coat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:57 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:36 am I pretty much suspected that your description of your wife was meant to be tongue in cheek but it is honorable of you to clarify it. I also am extremely fortunate in marriage.

As to sealing before foam: The first coat of epoxy will have penetrated and sealed the plywood. Unless you've sanded right through that to bare wood, you should be OK adding the foam without another coat.
I've known her since I was 15. First time I saw her I said to myself... "you don't have a chance, but maybe she will be your friend." As of Sunday that was 30yrs ago. Still my best friend. I know very few people are as lucky as I have been.

I have not sanded through. You can see where it's close though. I'll just clean it up and pour the foam!

Just to make sure I have it right...
1. clean out crap
2. mix 1:1 the two parts
3. pour in the space
4. let sit 24h
5. trim to seat level
6. coat trimmed surfaces with straight epoxy

Did I miss anything?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:34 am
by terrulian
I have used foam but not in my build and not for a long time so I'm not a good source. Others on the forum have more recent and more extensive experience with it for this specific use. Sounds right to me, though.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:13 pm
by Fuzz
Your foam plan will work just fine. Unless you over pore there will be some gaps around the edges that might need a little added.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:45 pm
by pee wee
That foam they sell here is closed cell; while I don't see it hurting anything is there an advantage to coating it with a layer of epoxy?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:16 pm
by Jaysen
pee wee wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:45 pm That foam they sell here is closed cell; while I don't see it hurting anything is there an advantage to coating it with a layer of epoxy?
I plan to "over pour" then trim to flush with seat hight. I thought I read that you needed to seal it if you trim to "close" the open cells. If that's wrong it saves me some work!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:00 pm
by Fuzz
The foam is millions of tiny bubbles. It is my understanding that each bubble is a closed cell. When you trim the foam all you are doing is opening a thin layer at the surface. The bubbles below that are still sealed. I only glass over the foam if there is a reason I want to protect it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:16 pm
by Jaysen
Got enough sanding and clean up done to start the foam.

Y'all made it sound like this stuff exploded like a marshmallow in a fire. So I started off with about 16oz. Made a mound but nowhere close to enough. Scratching my head I said, "well, I'm an idiot so maybe I did it wrong". 16oz more and I had two mounds. "Idiot or not you got the same results so ... go big or go home? ... hold my beer and watch this!"

This is two quarts and it's STILL not full. Part of the problem is that I had her sitting bow up causing the foam to settle against the transom. If you look to the port side you'll see where the idiot thought he could push the "liquid bubbles" forward to fill the gap. He's still an idiot.
924

You can see here how I moved the hull to lower the bow for tomorrow's effort to fill the gap.
925

My plan for leveling this involves some aluminum and a file. File a nice edge on the aluminum bar and then run it across the space using the cleats as guides. We shall see how that works. My guess is that the minute Fuzz reads this he will rush Murphy to the next southern flight with a first class ticket.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:36 pm
by Fuzz
Nope, Mr. Murphy has found a home here. We are busy doing our thing but have agreed to not speak of it for a while. :wink:
Do not worry about trying to level the boat. The foam will not self level no matter what. It will build a mound no matter what you do. At least it does for me. Just go ahead and pour too much and then trim it off when it is hard. Take the cut offs and drop them in the next place you will be foaming. I have one of those Japanese pull saws from Lowes and it works really nice for trimming foam.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:06 pm
by Jaysen
I forgot about the pull saws! I do t ha think one big enough so I may just stay with my bar plan. I'm guessing that I don't really need to be super flat since there will be a seat over all the foam.

What's the general volume expansion you get? How much should it have taken to get say 3 cubic feet of foam?

I plan to add a bit more tomorrow. I'm assuming it will just bond to the previously poured stuff. Any recommendations to get a good bond?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:19 pm
by Fuzz
One quart of mixed foam should yield one cubic foot of foam. Not sure you will get exactly that but it should close.
As far as bonding goes I have not found anything it does not bond to. I have cut into foam that was added the day later and can not find the bond line so I do not worry about it bonding to previous pored foam.
And as you have learned do not try to mess with the foam after it has started to kick. All you do is break the bubbles and make a mess.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:44 pm
by Jaysen
You should have said "make another mess"

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:57 am
by pee wee
If you have what before my time was referred to as "a saw", nowadays called a crosscut or rip handsaw or "the original cordless saw", they also work well to trim the foam tops. That's what CL used on his builds. Don't forget that the foam continues slightly to expand for a period after the big activity.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:52 am
by Jaysen
pee wee wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:57 am If you have what before my time was referred to as "a saw", nowadays called a crosscut or rip handsaw or "the original cordless saw", they also work well to trim the foam tops. That's what CL used on his builds. Don't forget that the foam continues slightly to expand for a period after the big activity.
Well now... that's a winner! I actually prefer hand tools* and have a set of real (aka 100yr old) saws that I can use for this (the blades are will coated and I will be able to clean them of any residue). I wasn't planning to trim until just before seat goes on which means after painting. Maybe second week of May.

Thanks for the tip!

* Except for sanding. Sanding sucks. I hate sanding only slightly less than the SOB tool. Which means I really really hate sanding.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:50 pm
by topwater
You do know that there is more than one Mr Murphy :wink: I have one that set up permanent residence with me and i shipped
his brother up to Fuzz .

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:08 pm
by Jaysen
So you're the one to blame for that....

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:51 am
by topwater
Agony loves company :!:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:41 am
by Jaysen
I may have defamed your parentage just now.

Today will be a "no op" day. The USMC is hosting the biannual community air show at the air station. I love seeing the real men and women of the MC, Army, AirForce and Navy interacting with the public. They let protesters in and everything. Just something about seeing a drill instructor be a human jungle gym with a huge smile on his face to remind you that these are sons, daughters, husbands, wives, fathers, and mothers. Last time
the organized "anti military" protestors (who were completely unhindered by mil or Civ attendees) realized they lost after about three minutes.

Anyway, Mrs and I are heading there and then going to look at the progress on Madge. I may get some foam and clean up done later this evening. Tomorrow will start hull interior in earnest.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:36 pm
by Jaysen
There a big nasty mess where the aft seat should be. Waiting a few days to trim it back.

Any suggestions for smoothing the inside of a v12? Using fairing compound seem right but it's dang near impossible to get it flat. Lots of curves and all of them con cave leaving lots of thickness. Smaller knife maybe?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:53 pm
by Fuzz
Kiwi Grip can be a great fairing compound :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:56 pm
by terrulian
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Welcome to the dark side.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:03 pm
by Jaysen
And I have defamed more lineages.

Tony, what did you do? Narrow knife and sand?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:45 pm
by terrulian
Not sure what you mean by "narrow knife."
I used all the types of spreaders I could think of depending on the curvature. Often a finger worked as well as anything in spreading the fairing goop. But when I read that other builders would just use this or that implement, and then simply brush on epoxy and voila! No sanding necessary, I could scream. That didn't come close for me.
For sanding I did the best I could with the pointy end of the triangular multi-tool sanding attachment. Sometimes, but not often, that was pretty close. For the rest, I sometimes used sandpaper wrapped around a dowel. The best advice came from ks8, I think (but please forgive me if I've mis-attributed this), and that was to use the old sandpaper from the multi-tool and my random orbital. The backing on these pieces is thick and cloth-like and allows you to obtain a fairly smooth curve around your finger.
The most frustrating areas were the concave corners where three panels meet. I tried everything on those but in the end the best I could do was the ks8 suggestion above with my finger. I went through several courses of filling and sanding on every single joint and corner. It took forever but I just couldn't tolerate the unfinished appearance that resulted if I left them as they were.
The most difficult part was the acute angle forward of the forward frame. You can't get in there with any electric sander that I was willing to invest in. (Someone suggested a Dremel tool. In my hands, this did more harm than good.) What I ended up doing was wrapping a length of pvc in packing tape to create a mold; then I put a bunch of goop in there and smashed the pvc into it. This created a very clean curve; but where the goop pooched out from the curve and into the adjoining sides, these areas had to be hand sanded.
Here are some photos from that process:
Image
Image
Image
In this last photo the process is finished and because of the lighting and the sanding marks in the primer it looks rough; but I guarantee it as smooth as the proverbial baby's butt:
Image

Another tricky area was where the middle seat met the hull. On the plans this is a fair curve although a lot of builders just chop it off. Again, just a lot of reps of goop/hand sanding/goop/hand sanding. It looks rougher than it is, and has yet to be sanded with, say, 150 or 220. The seats are taped to the sides so the weave had to be filled and faired.
Image

Final result:
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:49 am
by gonandkarl
I cannot stop looking at the final result knowing I still have to do all the corners of my cabin next to the frames at the deck and sides and I agree with a finger or a 4 " felt roller with sandpaper around it will do the work.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:01 am
by Jaysen
Lil Bit will be the slovenly, overweight sister to Tony's svelte v10.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:09 am
by terrulian
Yes, I think the larger projects like yours may have undone me. Tip of the hat to the majority of builders who are undertaking bigger boats than mine. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:22 am
by Jaysen
I think there may be another difference. I'm not sure how to say this nicely, but you may be a bit ... nuts. I don't see too many folks looking for the level of finish you achieved on your v10 on their first, second or third build. Maybe it's due to your history with sailboat bright work. Or maybe you just like driving yourself crazy.

That said, you've set the bar pretty high for first time builders who want "expert" finish.

I can't recall if I read it here or on a car forum, but i think the level of finish I'm looking for is "20ft". You have to be inside 20ft to see that she's a polished turd. So far so good. But as Tony pointed out, I'm about to get to the hard stuff.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:38 am
by topwater
Polished turd .... is that an industry term :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:05 am
by terrulian
you may be a bit ... nuts
Thanks Jaysen, I don't get credit for that often enough.

I don't know why I did go to this extent, it isn't my normal way of doing things. I'm always focused on functionality. But something about this build made me conscious of the details, and I also was inspired by the awesome accomplishments of folks like Cracker Larry and several others. If you think I'm nuts, spending a bit more time on the forum will introduce you to some real knuckleheads, and I mean that in the most respectful way. People who make and turn their own masts using genius methods, for example. Someone who cast his own bronze finials for the rub rail using home-built technology. (I confess I considered that myself and took an intro to casting at a local community college. I tried it in epoxy first, though, and decided I just wouldn't be able to get a good result.) So boat builder/nut case. Not a whole lot of daylight between those two categories!

That doesn't mean it's for everyone. You do whatever makes you feel good and no sense trying to copy someone else's boat any more than you'd copy their life.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 10:45 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Mon May 01, 2017 9:05 am If you think I'm nuts, spending a bit more time on the forum will introduce you to some real knuckleheads, and I mean that in the most respectful way.
I know it. But most of those guys are well into the nuttiness in BBV land. You just seemed to jump right in there.

I do have some crazy going on. Most of it still pending. Here are the things I'm building myself which make me wonder "why don't I just buy it?"
* I will be building my own mast. Less likely to be a full "turn" as much as a shaping with hand tools.
* Ditto on sprit
* All fiberglass rudder blade is being planned
* 3 compartment cooler in front of mid seat for multi-day trips
* working out the kinks on my "suspended bed" for those trips
* started working on my high efficiency gimbaled stove to hang off transom (again with the trips)
* almost have a functional live well design for bait but then I have to figure out how to build it
* knock down transport cart that stows in boat and provides structure for much of the above

Lil Bit will get wet LONG before all that is completed. Once the hull is done enough for oars and she's legal, she's going hunting for dinner. I'll get crab soup and redfish over rice, and the boss is waiting for stuffed flounder. Just hope my spots aren't already fished out by the time I get there.

As too what happens AFTER Lil Bit is all done and The Boss has her regular supply of flounder... let's just say I've got my plans. Still all sail and no motor, but a lot more boat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:16 am
by terrulian
Those are all very cool projects which will be totally a bit of fun.
If I had a list that long, laboring over fussy details would have meant still not being done with the boat!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:39 am
by Jaysen
I like the "problem" side of the projects. "How do I cook my fish when I don't have any land and I'm on a 12' dinghy and my fuel is the dry sticks I brought with me?" "How do I sleep with adequate ventilation, bug protection, and stability while maintaining loft that will prevent need for mattress material?" "Who in their right mind builds a boat of ANY kind without a way to get it to the water?" I've added a requirement for long term sustainability to all my solutions as well. No specialized products that lock me into vendor relationships, nothing I can't build or replace with off the shelf stuff, nothing that requires specific materials. More than once I've found myself sitting with the sander on (luckily not on the hull) staring at a space and trying to imagine how I would fit a bait well or cooler in it.

And before anyone worries about weight... By the time the big trips start, I will have LOST as much weight as I'm adding in "stuff". Full load out should be well under 225. Loosing 60lbs leaves room for LOTS of gear.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:04 pm
by Jaysen
I need to take my own advice. I think I said it to Karl: "if no one can see it, why are you worried about it?"

I just spent about 2hr swearing at a buck of stuff only to realize that NONE of it will be visible once the mid seat is on. I'm not Tony...

More compound will be applied tomorrow.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:31 pm
by Jeff
Good stuff Jaysen!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 10:09 pm
by terrulian
I stand falsely accused!!
I didn't finish the insides of the lockers more than to make sure there were no sharp pieces of glass that could cut you. And I didn't fair the underside of the middle seat. I may be nuts but I'm not crazy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 10:15 pm
by Jaysen
In my case it's the forward side of the frame. Remember that I've got the dagger trunk which necessitates the long nosed middle seat. Not a snowballs chance in hell anyone will see the bottom of that frame. Especially considering that no one will be forward of the frame unless they are launching the boat.

I actually need to deal with the bow all the way from beasthook to mast step. Not looking forward to that.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 10:40 pm
by glossieblack
Your on the right track Jaysen. Seeking perfection is the enemy of the good. :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:53 pm
by Jaysen
No pictures but bottom of inside is "done enough". Have sides and frames to smooth.

That said I have a bit of finish sanding in the corners and from mast step forward. Should go "quick" (does it ever go quick?)

Pictures soonish but not today.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:11 pm
by Fuzz
Holding out on us.................ok, I see the way it is going to be :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:27 pm
by Jaysen
Just like you and fishing. 9' seas should be nothing for you. :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 2:12 am
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Thu May 04, 2017 8:27 pm Just like you and fishing. 9' seas should be nothing for you. :P
35 knot wind, 9 foot seas, wave period 7 seconds, water temperature 42f fun factor ZERO. Over 60 and not doing it for a living any more so if it ain't gona be fun I am not going :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 6:41 am
by Jeff
Absolutely agree Fuzz!!!! No fun, No Go!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:45 am
by Jaysen
I get that. I don't know if I could stand on a dock in those conditions. My last foray tells me I'm a good bit away from anything but mild weather for a while. Luckily I have plenty of sheltered, semi sheltered and "what the fork did I come out here in this?" space to practice my over-the-side-goes-the-last-4-days-of-food.

I will sail offshore. I will. Someday.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 07, 2017 8:36 pm
by Jaysen
Looks like I beat Fuzz to posting pictures.

Forward to mid frame. The "deck" is finished enough. You can see the first layer of fairing over the tape on the hull sides. I've yet to mask the areas the areas that will be glued/glassed. Not super critical for seat areas since the cleats will produce most of the support.
951

Aft to newly trimmed floatation foam. Not 100% filled but close enough to call it done.
950

And there's Paris Island and Lil Bit's first destination for deck bloodying. Just over 2mi but an easy sail.
949

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 4:53 am
by Eric1
Looking good Jaysen! It's pretty down there, my folks had a house on Harbor Island.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 6:55 am
by Jaysen
Not sure when it opened, but "Johnson Creek Tavern" just before the bridge to Hunting Island is a go to for us when company comes to visit. Hit the beach, stop for a beer and meal and more beer, grab a pile o' shrimp from Gay's seafood, hit Wrens Nest or Barefoot farms on the way to the house and then a low country boil as the sun goes down while the Marines yell goodnight to it. Living down here is pretty damn close to living in heaven. Especially if you dream of living on the sea.

Been thinking this morning about a proper way to show the proper respect to CL and contributions he made to Lil Bit. I've a few ideas but haven't settled on anything yet.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:49 pm
by Jaysen
I must be doing something wrong. This is only a 12' boat. It should not take this long to sand. Especially with a motorized sander. I'm going to to try making the mix with even more microboloons to see if that softens it up.

That or my 60gr has gone soft. No idea what's wrong.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 8:25 pm
by terrulian
I'm sure you're changing paper often?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 9:21 pm
by Eric1
Jaysen wrote: Mon May 08, 2017 6:55 am Not sure when it opened, but "Johnson Creek Tavern" just before the bridge to Hunting Island is a go to for us when company comes to visit. Hit the beach, stop for a beer and meal and more beer, grab a pile o' shrimp from Gay's seafood, hit Wrens Nest or Barefoot farms on the way to the house and then a low country boil as the sun goes down while the Marines yell goodnight to it. Living down here is pretty damn close to living in heaven. Especially if you dream of living on the sea.
I agree with that. I miss shrimping and catching when I wanted some. I love the coast.

Have you tried my coffee grinder trick? dump your microballoons and silica in and pulse it a few times. It makes better compound IMHO. I also agree with Terrulian, Keep the paper fresh! I used six 16 inch strips sanding my bottom today. I'm using an air file to knock down the heavy stuff then I block sand. I'm using paper from Eastwood auto tools, It's made in Portugal and its good stuff. I'll get you the brand name when I get to work in the morning.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 10:06 pm
by Jaysen
Remember I'm lazy.

6" disc on RO gets swapped after about 4'. Using the same "not prime" brand I've been using since day one. I did notice that I'm getting flaking of the media from the backer. I'm. It sure if it's "more" than normal or I just noticed out of frustration.

Yes, I know cheap-ish sandpaper is satan's revenge. It's about supply. The wife pics me up refills on her way home. Anything "special" and I'd still be working to tape the seams.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 2:01 am
by gonandkarl
Hi,
I am also busy sanding like an idiot but on your thread there are the authors with their tips that really will work. Tonys idea of changing sanding strips often I will adhere to from today. I sanded yesterday with one 14 ounce strip 3/4 of one side of the boat and that was hard going for 4 hours. Luckily Erics specification of 6 16 ounce strips for the bottom proved Tonys thinking of frequent change. I think the two of us will be much more successful today if we adhere to these 2 expert hints. Happy sanding and greetings from Karl.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:30 am
by Jaysen
Yeah. I'm going to do that and look for some 3m paper. May just need to pony up the $$ for a thousand discs.

I do have one big advantage over you Karl... I'm using a RO sander still. Lil Bit is a slow boat that will get beaten up so I'm just not willing to put the effort into a finish like yours. My next boat... she'll get the full treatment for glossy finish.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:51 am
by Eric1

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 11:12 am
by terrulian
Eric,
That's a good deal on sandpaper. Also on that site is an excellent video of sanding and using a guide coat. Very useful for us boatbuilders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c-eaxuxRqc

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 11:51 am
by Jaysen
Dang... those are good prices. Looks like I'm going to be looking for the CC again.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 3:47 am
by Eric1
I think you're going to like it. It's decent paper. :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 6:03 pm
by Jaysen
Some dipsh!t kept having his fairing compound kick in the bowl. Then said dipsh!t remembered that he still had slow hardener. Sometimes I hate me.

I'm going to say that 90% of the surfaces that could be slathered have been. What remains are the areas that I need to be careful of due to near term glue and tape of seats. Tomorrow should be sanding it all "close enough" if Mrs bring home some good discs. Otherwise it will be "swearing and changing" the crap paper.

Pics once I get some sanding done.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 5:25 pm
by Jaysen
Ok. Here we go.

Transom looking to mid frame. Needs some touch up with sob tool.
963

Bow looking to mid. This will get very little touch up. No one will see it. And if the crabs complain about the Brie I'll turn to into redfish bait.
964

Tony's favorite place to swear about sanding. This will be covered with gear 98% of the time so just a bit of touch up with SOB.
965

Finally test fitting with seats to say "good forking enough". As you can see much of the crap just isn't visible. She's planned a work boat finish so on SOB and I get a few particularly egregious changes laces knocked down she's done.
966

967

968

Next steps:
1. SOB on the terrible places.
2. Primer for everything that isn't between a cleat and blue tape
3. Decide if I can live with work boat. If yes prime on. If not... cry and prime on.
4. Prime seats.
5. Top coat bottom and seats and rub tail with oyster white. And antislip to bottom.
6. Topcoat hull side with FLY making sure not to paint where there isn't primer.
7. Afix seats, mast partner, bresthook and knees.
8. Register as row/sail.
9. Complete sailing portion.

Questions on knees and breasthook. Just glued it glued and taped?

Now let's see Fuzz with some fish.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 6:31 pm
by Fuzz
If the topsides turn out as nice as the bottom you are going to be just fine. I can tell you are starting to love the SOB but you just can not bring yourself to admit it :lol:
On the fishing front it is looking like maybe the weather is going to let me get out soon. Today is the first warm day we have had this year :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 6:43 pm
by Jaysen
I'll spend nearly the time on the top as the bottom. The bottom has more influence on boat performance.

As to the SOB... nope. I see it as useful but still hate it. It is about the only way to get into that corners and edges.

We had a decent temp today. See attached for evidence. :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 7:13 pm
by terrulian
Still haven't sorted the bow seat/partners mystery yet?
Otherwise, good progress.
I think you are the only guy on the forum that doesn't like the multitool. The late great Cracker was a big fan. Vive la différence and build on!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 7:36 pm
by Jaysen
Bow area is going to be open other than the breasthook as required by Jacques. The blue tape on the forward rubrail is where the partner gets attached. I'm know that the partner is just glued on (no tape specified). What I'm not certain about are the knees and hook. It seems to me that if I don't need tape for the mast partner then something that bears no load would not need it at all. I will be taping the seats since the build documents indicate they pr Vide structural support to the hull.

I've decided that the bow forward of the mast will be for crab traps and safety gear inshore. Multi day trips it will be stowage for safety gear, anchor, bedroll, stove, "dry goods" and clothing. Nearshore (which will be multiday using a couple of inshore hides right at the river mouth) I will add additional flotation via CO2 inflated bags in the unlikely event I get run over by an idiot in a power boat.

Betwixt the mast partner and mid seat will be empty inshore but for all other trips there will be a custom 3 compartment cooler. Port will be human food, starboard will be and frozen bait or spare ice (sides of dagger trunk) remainder will be fish box. Targets here are flounder, trout, and redfish. Not sure what's in the big water but I'd hope for dolphin and maybe some yellow fin (not common) hence the large fish box. Will be using dry ice.

At least that how I think it will all play out forward of the mid frame. I expect to find none of that works and then I'll start over.

See? I'm learning.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:32 pm
by terrulian
Dolphins?? 8O :help: You would know more than me but they weigh more than your boat and all its gear and yellow fin tuna gets to sizes I wouldn't call dainty.

So do you intend some kind of enclosure at the bow? Or just a big scoop to fill with water?

I glassed the knees and breasthook. Don't think it was required and Jacques designs strong boats without overbuilding. I wouldn't say those corner fixtures take no load, however. The boat, particularly under sail, is always trying to twist a bit. But I glassed them for aesthetic reasons, too, because I left those areas clear and I wanted to protect the finish from dings.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:55 pm
by Jaysen
Not the mammal, the fish. In the stores it's called mahi. The mammals are pricks down here. When I'm in the kayak they tend to smack me around a bit. The only thing worse than them are the bald eagles. Those turds straife the yak and steal my fish.

I am building a bow cover that will push most water over the bow into the aft area to allow bailing. Two pieces... bow to mast partner and mast partner to mid frame. The mid ship section would only be in place under way when offshore.

Again, that's the plan. I'll have to see how things work in the real world. Going to take small steps to get to the final state.

I was thinking that I should glass them. Lots of torsional forces under sail. Add wave action, anchor stresses, my currently fat a$$ moving around in the boat. I'd rather have her slightly over built than run the risk of making the call to the CG to come me get me due to not glassing something.

That layer of 12oz pretty much moved her into the heavyweight class already.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 10:32 pm
by Jaysen
Change in plans...

I did some math and realized that prepainting would leave me undoing about 30% of the painting. Then I'd be right back to the same place of needing to make "tops small" batches of primer and topcoat. Tomorrow I will get the seats, knees, mast partner and breast hook glued and taped. Sunday should be fairing compound to finish. Then paint Wednesday. Not looking forward to all the "tight" places. It it won't take long to get it all done.

Pics as I progress over the weekend.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:34 pm
by Fuzz
You better post some pictures. I went out today and posted a fish picture just to make you happy :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 7:38 am
by Jaysen
Rain. Wind. Thunder. Going to give it a bit to pass by then get to work on seats. Since I've got nothing else I thought I'd outline the plan for my own benefit.

All surfaces prepped.
Mix slow with wood flour.
Fill cleat areas to level.
Place seats.
Fillets.
Brush with straight.
Tape.
Full/fair.
Sand until I hate the idea of building a boat.

If all goes perfectly I'll get through tape today. Which means I might make some glue.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 12:58 pm
by Jaysen
Rain let up for a bit.

Seats are glued in. I need to let the glue sit before making fillets with silica epoxy.
969

970

971

If you look close there are gaps to span. Not too worried about that. I did use slow hardener to give me time to use the full pot. I'll be happy to just get fillets in today.

I will try to get breasthook and mast partner glued in before fillets. Lunch first.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 1:26 pm
by Jeff
Nice progress Jaysen!! I am in Savanah, GA this weekend for a wedding and it has poured here all day so far!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 1:33 pm
by Jaysen
thanks Jeff. Same here. Luckily the bucket pour lime is still across the sound. Been able to stay dry under the tarp.

Having some difficulty with getting consistent mix and cure out of my slow. Does hardener "go bad"?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 1:55 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen what lead me down the road of this insanity was me finding this site and then 15 gallons of System3 in a back corner of my shop. The System3 was bought around 1990. The bottom half of the resin 5 gallon jug was hard as a rock but the hardner was good. I warmed up the resin, it went back to normal, and built my dory. Dory has not fallen apart so I believe the stuff does not go bad.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 2:03 pm
by Jaysen
How much did you strain yourself not typing "you forked it up dinglebat"?

I really don't want to use premix (because I'm stupidly stubborn) but I may need to do that on the next one.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 2:40 pm
by Fuzz
Over the years I have made some world class screw ups so I will not throw rocks at someone for minor set backs. If your mix was correct it could be a temperature problem :doh: One good thing about having to work indoors year around is I have pretty consistent working temperatures.
All that being said it was tempting :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 3:31 pm
by Jaysen
We all can't be glossieblack
972

Yes, that's masking tape holding the breasthook in place. And yes that's glue EVERYPLACE BUT IN THE SEAM!!!

Fork me I just gave Fuzz ammo.

Fuzz, the temp did dip, but that's relative. It's 68. I'm using the same measure that I use for fast. It's only the slow that is being ... slow. I did recheck the stuff I did with slow 48jr ago, hard as a rock. It must just be that I've forget how slow slow is.

Different topic: any reason I can't mix silica and wood flour to reduce sag in the glue?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:50 pm
by dbcrx
Jaysen wrote: Sat May 13, 2017 3:31 pm And yes that's glue EVERYPLACE BUT IN THE SEAM!!!
If it's going to be painted - don't worry about it.
Jaysen wrote: Sat May 13, 2017 3:31 pm Different topic: any reason I can't mix silica and wood flour to reduce sag in the glue?
Nope, that's the good thing about mixing your own - mix and match as you need it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:20 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Sat May 13, 2017 3:31 pm We all can't be glossieblack
972

Yes, that's masking tape holding the breasthook in place. And yes that's glue EVERYPLACE BUT IN THE SEAM!!!

Different topic: any reason I can't mix silica and wood flour to reduce sag in the glue?
I am pretty sure epoxy works different down under. That is the only explanation for Glossie's work.

Silly me and here I was thinking that was a redneck anchor roller :P

Blend your fillers any way you want to get the job done.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:24 pm
by Jaysen
The redneck solutions will start showing up in about 2 weeks. Much beer will need to be held. Much watching of "this" will be done. Mrs is upping the insurance payout

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:25 pm
by Fuzz
dbcrx wrote: Sat May 13, 2017 5:50 pm
Jaysen wrote: Sat May 13, 2017 3:31 pm And yes that's glue EVERYPLACE BUT IN THE SEAM!!!
If it's going to be painted - don't worry about it.
Jaysen wrote: Sat May 13, 2017 3:31 pm Different topic: any reason I can't mix silica and wood flour to reduce sag in the glue?
Nope, that's the good thing about mixing your own - mix and match as you need it.
Puter dummy here. how do you quote somebody, post answer, then do another quote in the same post :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:34 pm
by Jaysen
Use the sections below the reply and hit the quote button if it is multiple posts you are quoting.

If it is single post, you manually add the

Code: Select all

[/quote] [quote="name"] 
tags.

Ex
Fuzz in Alaska wrote:Putter dummy
Many of us are!
Fuzz but not the bear wrote:how do you
i just pretend.

I added some text to the name portion of the quote so you could see how it is done.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:11 am
by Jaysen
Bateau needs to sell a T shirt with the BBC logo and the slogan
Sand until a boat shows up -- Cracker Larry
That just happened.

Mast partner basic shaping completed. A bit of fill will need sanded and some edges eased, but ... there it is
973
976
974
975

And looking aft...
977

Really all that's left is filling voids and smoothing a bit.

While I'm not done, the end is very near. I should be able to get all the fillets and any glass I decide to lay on today. I'm rethinking the glass as JM build notes say nothing about glassing anything other than the hull and frames. Probably a good idea, but at this point, getting her in the water is a really good idea too.

Remaining steps for today.
1. straight epoxy a few places that got sanded through.
2. Silica fillets and gap filling
3. Rub rail touch ups (shape and a few gaps I found)
4. Glass or not
5. Start masking for primer

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:13 pm
by Fuzz
Good deal! You have been on her long and hard so I am sure it is good to see it coming to an end :D

Bad part is if you get this done who am I going to have to razz :doh: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:50 pm
by terrulian
You and Cracker are right. A boat is indeed showing up! :D
In regard to glassing: I guess you're talking about the bottom?
You can, in fact, put the boat in the water once you touch up the bare spots with epoxy. You can even skip the paint for now if you want as long as you don't leave it outside at all. Don't know what kind of rough use you're going to give her this summer but even if you don't glass, and decide to just paint and do the graphite/epoxy bottom, you could see how it goes and glass next winter if necessary. The graphite/epoxy is epoxy, after all, so a good sanding and cleaning would allow you to go ahead and add the glass.
My personal problem would be knowing that, realistically, I'd never go back to that stage, which would almost certainly require some more fairing, sanding, priming, and painting. :? So now is really the time to decide. No pressure or anything. :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:35 pm
by Jaysen
Actually I was referring to seats and knees. All JM says is glue. Fillet bottom if you are paranoid (my paraphrase). The bottom is already covered with 12oz and 3 layers graphite.

All the silica stuff is down. Gaps and rubrail filled. It's going to need sanding and an idiot used slow hardener, so that sets me back a day.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:02 pm
by terrulian
I see, cool. I think you'll be glass you glassed the bottom.
Another thing I did to achieve the maximum weight possible was to double the breasthook and knees. Plans call for 3/8 plywood but I laminated two together to make 3/4". I actually like this a lot. Although I'm sure it is not necessary for strength, it gives the boat a more substantial look and feel. Or so I feel.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:58 pm
by Jaysen
Tony wrote:maximum weight possible
Hahaha! We do seem to be in a competition with each other there, don't we?

Graphite section masked off.

A quick inspection shows that I'm going to have the privilege of doing another round of sanding! YEAH!!!

If I ever get my hands on the dumb a$$ that can't keep epoxy from dripping on finished areas...

Thinking about it I'm still on track. Sand tomorrow. Primer Tuesday evening (may be Wednesday if the wife holds to pattern of surprising me with "fun things to do"). Based on two primer coats a day Tuesday and Wednesday, I should be able to start topcoat Saturday.

Fuzz, I bought EVERY member of the Murphy family a ticket to your place. Take them fishing. No need to bring them back from fishing. 😏

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:53 am
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Sun May 14, 2017 2:58 pm
Fuzz, I bought EVERY member of the Murphy family a ticket to your place. Take them fishing. No need to bring them back from fishing. 😏
Nope..............not going to happen. Cracker rule #10 everybody comes home safe. Even if they are named Murphy :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:55 am
by topwater
Mr Murphy is indestructible as long as one human still walks the earth :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:11 am
by Jaysen
Apparently part of the clan missed the flight to Fuzz's place...

I'm sure we've all heard about that virus mess... I suddenly have very limited time to sand today. And the wife says she "owns me" on Tuesday. As much as I hope that means something good, history indicates I will not enjoy the evening.

Early morning check and there was some shrinkage in a few seams. I'll sand, then fill with fast+silica to keep things curing timely. Starting to look like painting this weekend may not be possible. BOOOO!!!!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:33 pm
by Jaysen
Mrs came out to look..

Wife: what are you doing?
Idiot: sanding.
W: I thought you were done...
I: I made a mess filling some gaps.
W: I can tell.
I: I think I'm close.
W: Clean it up and come get me.
[Idiot finishes, sweeps SNG gets Wife]
W: Hmmm... ugh... grrrr.
I: I don't think I like where this is going.
W: You shouldn't.
I: But ....
W: I know how much you hate painting, but she's ready.

The boss has spoken. Workboat seams but she's solid. Letting the epoxy cure another day and prime on Wednesday.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:41 pm
by Fuzz
You do know Cracker's rule: Without pictures it did not happen :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:49 pm
by Jaysen
Pictures Wednesday. With primer.

That proof enough?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:53 pm
by Fuzz
That is what I am talking about :D
I am betting it is going to look a lot better than what you are letting on. :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:48 pm
by Eric1
I'm looking forward to the pictures! 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:44 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz, its workboat. If she wasn't getting frustrated by the sound of the sander I'd fill a few spots where the epoxy shrunk while curing. I'll be happy with it, no questions. But I'll never call it anything but a workboat topside.

Eric, I'll take lots of pics. I'll get some before and after a to show how much small and large defects change in the painting process.

I'm also debating making one more change... in only used 60gr. Nothing finer than that for the whole boat. I'm thinking I might do some 80 and 120 areas just as a demonstration on what the surfaces look like when finished. But that takes work. And I'm lazy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:10 pm
by Jaysen
For you Fuzz

I couldn't stand the mast partner without easing the corners and edges at the rubrail. FIXED. And approved by the boss.
1020

1021

1022

1023

1024

1025

And we have dagger board slot! Router for slotting, dremel for perfecting the slot, router with round over to edge.
1026

1027

Next up primer. Need to straight epoxy the slot so that mid seat will be a day late for initial coat. I'm expecting I can get caught up with time to topcoat this weekend.

Your turn Fuzz. Fish or boat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:58 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, really nice work!!! She is really coming together!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:37 pm
by Fuzz
That is looking good Jaysen. I think SWMBO will approve :D

As for boat or fish.................it will be fish, just waiting for a weather window. It is warming up, finally, but the wind does not want to give us a break. One of my fishing buddies made a trip off of Deep Creek yesterday and tried to recreate that beaching/loading video I posted last year :help:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:19 pm
by Jaysen
I guess I'm spoiled with all the access to concrete ramps and the lack of wave motion up here in the sound. Next time someone hears out offer to "help" them with recovery by providing video analysis. Should be simple ... "stop being a dingus and stay home!"

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:20 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 7:58 pm Jaysen, really nice work!!! She is really coming together!! Jeff
Thanks Jeff the hardest part is still ahead... registering with SC DNR.

And rudder. Still need a plan for the rudder.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:20 am
by Eric1
Jaysen, Do me a favor and document the registration with SCDNR. You get to be the example for me to go by! Boat looks great, ready for the paint pictures. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:23 am
by cape man
That little detail on the mast partner is sweet.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:37 am
by Jaysen
Thanks capeman. In retrospect I should have followed my initial gut reaction to the dry fit and notched the rubrail to completely recess it. As it is, I will use it raised to provide termination for the forward and mid section covers while underway. Having it raised as it is makes it pretty easy to control water shedding.

Eric, the SC process for real boats is a bit more complex. My simplified process has a 45-? Day wait time (was told 90+ When I called in April. I'll have to decide if I risk floating her while in process or sit and pour for a few months. My fishing gear is mocking me so...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:39 am
by Jaysen
Notes:

1. Washing inside of boat with no drain let's you practice your bailing techniques.
2. Clean, wet boat looks much better then dusty, dry boat.
3. Ensure bailing kit contain one large and one small bailing bucket and at least two "soft" sponges in the largest size available.
4. DO NOT SPRAY THE SIDE YOU ARE ONLY 3" WAY FROM.
5. Sanding touch up prior to primer... will require cleanup.
6. Do your wash down sooner than later. I sure hope she's dried out in time for lunch time application of initial coat.

Anyone know the coverage of 1qt S3 primer? Can't find it anywhere on the can. Also open to any tips for application that don't require use of sprayer :)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:29 am
by BrianC
I ended up using about 1/2 gallon to do the inside and out of an SK14 - 3 coats each. - Brian

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:49 am
by cape man
I bought one of these for my SC 16. Works like a charm and stows easily. A LOT more effective than bailing with a bucket or can/sponge.
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:55 am
by terrulian
I've got one of these but on my little boat I prefer a cut-off milk jug, which is free if you drink milk.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:27 pm
by Jaysen
My only concern with the jug method is that I need one hand on the tiller to "stay out of trouble". I agree that the jug is fast if you have two free hands. the pump can be clamped to a seat frame with a pick up hose making it a one handed operation. That said I to plan on keeping a jug or two on board.

Took a few minutes to make some "solo cup measuring devices" to make 10floz of primer in a batch. It seems unrealistic to me, but that "should" cover the hull. Once I get out of this meeting I plan to do the touch up sanding and final wash. That has me putting first coat on 5ish and hopefully second 7ish.

I've watched the BBC vid on BBC anti slip and am pretty confident I can get that to work out. Planning a 1" border on hull sides, 1.5" on frames, and 2" (1" either side) centerline. Will only have it on the bottom. Any recommendation on how many coats of anti-slip I should use?

Since I'll have lots of "watching paint dry" time I'll start planning my rudder. I'm pretty committed to a dagger style rudder but I want to make it a bit impact resistant. I also plan to make the blade 100% glass and the cassette wood and glass. Likely to be a straight blade for simplicity with a rounded ff end (like the dagger board).

I'm also thinking about remaking the dagger board as well. No good reason, but ... why not? I could match the rudder and dagger making it simple to create replacements. There are also a few things I'd like to add to the dagger to allow for easy pegging into place (which is based on what I'm planning for the rudder).

Mast/spar is going to have to wait till the hull is moved. No other place to build them. I think I'll be able to register the boat once painted and rudder installed. I think. It is a gov't org so...

Pictures once I get some paint on her.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:04 pm
by Fuzz
Just as I suspected....................your work looks a lot better than you let on :D
Is there any way you can start the registration process now? It is going to make you nuts if you have a finished boat just sitting there waiting on paperwork.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:34 pm
by terrulian
Duh. I never thought of mounting the hand pump. The one-handed operation--along with my cheapness--is one reason I favored the jug. You don't need two hands for it--it has a built in handle. I'll be interested in seeing your setup. On my V10, the middle seat does not have a limber hole so that water can't pile up in one end or the other. For that reason, a fixed mount pump wouldn't work unless I had two.

On the other hand, you're never going to need to bail--right? :lol:

Not sure what anti-skid you're talking about but KiwiGrip is very easy and comes out looking professional. I love that stuff.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:49 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 1:04 pm Just as I suspected....................your work looks a lot better than you let on :D
We will let the primer decide which of us is wrong!
Fuzz wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 1:04 pmIs there any way you can start the registration process now? It is going to make you nuts if you have a finished boat just sitting there waiting on paperwork.
No. I asked that several time. Boat much be complete. Painted and all non-removable parts affixed. Once I get her painted I should be good to start, but I suspect they are going to request pics of mast, rudder, etc. That rework will require even more time.
terrulian wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 1:34 pm Duh. I never thought of mounting the hand pump. The one-handed operation--along with my cheapness--is one reason I favored the jug. You don't need two hands for it--it has a built in handle. I'll be interested in seeing your setup. On my V10, the middle seat does not have a limber hole so that water can't pile up in one end or the other. For that reason, a fixed mount pump wouldn't work unless I had two.

On the other hand, you're never going to need to bail--right? :lol:
Only if I use an electric pump!

no limbers on my side either. my thought is that I will typically sit on the floor under sail. Sheet around peg next to rudder. This will allow access to dagger, rudder, snotter, brail and everything else to make an "oh sh!t!" moment less terrible. My thought was that the manual bilge would be on the center frame with the intake hose able to hit either side of the frame. The other option is 2 pumps... fore and aft. I've not committed to anything and really don't think I'll need that level of bailing until I'm actually outside the islands. Maybe end of the year.
terrulian wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 1:34 pm Not sure what anti-skid you're talking about but KiwiGrip is very easy and comes out looking professional. I love that stuff.
BBC sells an additive. On the How To page there is a video showing how to use it with S3. I'll just mix a bit in with my EMC and... I probably don't need it, but I'd rather have it. I can see things getting "slicker than an eel's..." with a fish or three coming on board. Just smart to put it on walking surfaces. My biggest concern is actually ensuring that I have solid footing while moving around under sail. And by footing I mean hands and knees. I could see needing to stand up while fishing, but I didn't do that on the kayak so I can't imagine doing it on Lil Bit.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:54 pm
by Fuzz
No fair taking a close up of the only bad spot just to prove your point :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:07 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 1:54 pm No fair taking a close up of the only bad spot just to prove your point :lol:
How many bad spots do you want?

that's just how confident I am...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:52 pm
by Jaysen
I don't think I have enough primer. Tony, how much did you need for your v10?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:10 pm
by terrulian
Sorry, don't remember. I'm sure I put on too much because...I sanded 90% of it off.
I'll try to look later, meanwhile I'm off to a beer can race.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:46 pm
by Jaysen
1.75 coats of primer.
1028

1029

1030

1031

And for Fuzz. These are the ones you can see easy. None of these are in hidden areas. The I left reason a few are close is to get the normal viewing angle or to ensure contrast.
1032

1033

1034

1035

1036

1037

1038

1039

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:35 pm
by Fuzz
Oh NO..................looks totally like crap :P You better cover it up and wait until I am down there so you can give it to me :lol:

In all seriousness a little time with the SOB and a little QuickFair and all those minor boo-boos will be a memory. I think it is going to look pretty darn good very soon. And it ain't bad now :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:48 pm
by Jaysen
I could clean it up. But I won't. She's done for now. When I need to redo the top sides I'll fix it. For now she's good enough to kill fish and party with SWMBO.

I'm not sure if I'm still in track for the weekend. Nearly out of S3 primer and I think I need at least one additional full coat on top of finishing the second. I should have enough to finish second coat and touch up the sides. Using EMC topcoat so I "should" be able to skimp on the primer a bit. Any thoughts?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:03 pm
by Fuzz
You got that rudder thing sorted out yet? And do you even need one if you just want to go for a row? I well and truly understand just wanting to get it in the water and play :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:07 pm
by Jaysen
I have an idea on what I want to build. Need to draft it up. Think dagger board but with a slot to retain it in a open cassette.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:12 pm
by Jaysen
And as to getting on the water... 90d min to get registered with SC. The gestopo tends to confiscate not issue tickets down here. Last thing I need is to get her confiscated before I get her out to the fin water.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:44 pm
by Fuzz
That is totally INSANE :!: When I registered my dory it took all of 15 minutes. And ten of that was filling out the paperwork and writing the check for 30 bucks. There some things I envy you southern boys over but that ain't one of them.
Can you present the boat in primer to get the paperwork started and then go from there? How they going to know its primer and not topcoat?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:07 pm
by Jaysen
You send pics! Not an in person inspection. No safety check. Not verification of original build. Nothing. But they do require final colors for use on the reg and title (that's what they told me). So if I send in a primer white vessel and get stopped in a yellow vessel with the white vessel's numbers... bye bye boat.

When I call back I'm going to ask about a temp reg so I can get on the water. I doubt I'll get it but it's worth asking about.

For the record, the hull is the hard part. Trailer and motor are simple.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:22 pm
by Fuzz
Damn..................so I guess they take the boat and put you in jail if you are dumb enough to paint the boat a different color at some point down the road :doh: I am just glad we have not reached that level of insanity here yet. But then we do not have a big problem with stolen boats here, yet. Hard to get away with it when there is only a couple of roads. More than once a boat has been stolen only to be seen going down the road and reported to the cops.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:53 am
by Jaysen
Not sure on the repaint. I believe that requires a change form or early renewal. It's also entirely possible I've been lied too by the government employee. All I know is that I've seen enough boats get impounded for minor offenses that I'm not willing to risk it. I may be will to float her for trim test but I don't think it would be wise to take her more than a dozen yards from the launch.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:17 am
by gonandkarl
I am really lucky my AD14 sailboat is LOA 4.42 and anything under 4.50 is considered flotsam here in Austria and need not be registered as a boat. With my electric outboard I can also use it on most lakes because petrol outboard motors are not allowed and on some lakes only in Spring or Autumn.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:24 am
by Jaysen
gonandkarl wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 8:17 am I am really lucky my AD14 sailboat is LOA 4.42 and anything under 4.50 is considered flotsam here in Austria and need not be registered as a boat. With my electric outboard I can also use it on most lakes because petrol outboard motors are not allowed and on some lakes only in Spring or Autumn.
It used to be the same here (prior to 1994) IF the vessel was under 14' with no motor. Now EVERY vessel is supposed to be registered and titled. Even kayaks. And once you have title and registration the state will tax you on the hull (separate from motor taxes). It is really nothing more than a way to fund the state but, when compared to my previous place of residence, the taxes are so low here I just don't mind. The one thing that really irritates me though is the bureaucracy to stay legal. If it wasn't for our being located at one of the major enforcement areas, I'd just risk it and splash without title and registration.

But I like my Lil Bit of a boat. So I'll be patient and keep her legal.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:30 am
by Jaysen
sigh.... No one locally "stocks" S3 primer. I didn't want to buy local, but I didn't want to wait on shipping.

So ... do I really need more then 2 coats primer? I'm sure I have enough EMC (1qt each color) to do 4 coats on all surfaces (1qt primer gets 2 coats...). What's the down side to skimping on the primer other than possibly needing more topcoat to achieve uniform coloration?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:05 am
by terrulian
If you don't sand it all away like someone I know personally, two coats should do fine.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:16 am
by Jaysen
I've already padlocked the sanders, put them in a weighted box, and carried them to a neighbor's dock.

I have found a few areas that I "should" address. I really don't want to. I'll only make things worse, but I can hear them calling our to every toe and knee say "let me irritate you... please!!!" Which means I'm likely to hit just those places before I go make more mess on the hull with primer tonight.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:27 am
by terrulian
You can spot prime the areas you sand.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:24 pm
by Fuzz
I totally understand where you are at right now but I am afraid if you do not take the little, very little, time to address those small spots you will come to regret it. The way I know this is because that is what I did on my dory and it bugs me. :oops:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:28 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 12:24 pm I totally understand where you are at right now but I am afraid if you do not take the little, very little, time to address those small spots you will come to regret it. The way I know this is because that is what I did on my dory and it bugs me. :oops:
Are you talking about the spots I photo'd or the ones I mentioned to Tony?

The ones mentioned to Tony are going to be hit if this stupid call ever ends.
The ones photo'd really don't bother me. When they do... she's small enough and they are small enough that it should be a nice 2week project.

Then again, I'm a lazy turd. And they will likely be there when they use Lil Bit for my coffin.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:38 pm
by Fuzz
I am only talking about those spots that bug you or SWMBO. If none of them bug you then that is all that matters.
I think there comes a time in every build that the best thing you can do is give it a rest for a little while. not too long or it will stall but a short break helps. For me that is the summer fishing season.
Plus I got a little mercenary job for my buddy with the sail boat I posted.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:45 pm
by Jaysen
I hear you. I took a lot of unwanted time off over the winter. Right now it's just about "get it in the water". Same reason I bought a new motor for the toy car instead of trying to rebuilt the original. "Get it done" is the motto these days.

Are you talking the sailboat with booms? If you are, you've got to tell me more about that.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:47 pm
by Fuzz
Well it is a long story so I hope you do not mind the hijack

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:16 pm
by Fuzz
The boat is a 53 sailboat hull set up for fishing. The mast you see is only for rigging and not sails. The side poles are for the paravines. She drafts 9 feet.Image
He and his new bride, as of 12-24-17, take off to go winter fishing the first of the year. I warned her he was Hitler on a boat but she still goes. At some point they are out in the gulf headed to the Dutch Harbour area. It is cold and wind is blowing pretty good plus the boat is making ice so they find a bay to pull into.
They dump the hook in 10 fathoms and lay out 150 fathoms of rode hoping to get a little sleep. Nope..........the wind keeps building so he is up on anchor watch. When gusts hit the boat heels enough to dip the rail and she is making 5.5 knots sideways on the GPS. He had an aluminium shelter deck over the back of the boat lighted with LED lights. A really hard gust hits them and there is a lot of banging going on and then the lights go out. He takes a spotlight and looks, no shelter deck :!: On the shelter deck was an EPERB and the life raft.
The next morning it has calmed down and he can see the Eperb on the beach. He gets as close to the beach as he can with that draft and left over swell. Now the good part :D He puts his new bride in a survival suit, ties a line around her, gives her a second line, and has her float into the beach to retrieve the Eperb. The life raft was on an automatic deploy and it never did inflate as far as he can tell. When they got home she looked at me funny when I referred to her as a Lab :lol:
So now he needs a new shelter deck. Wants to try building it out of nidacore this time. That is where I come in.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:45 pm
by Jaysen
He's lucky he's not looking for a new wife!

I can't imagine being up there, in winter, on the water, with that kind of wind. Down here in the relative tropics a 90°F day can cool off pretty quick with an ocean breeze. I'd be in hell up there.

This shelter deck, more like a pilot house but open on one end?
What are they catching and how are they storing it in a sail hull? 53' is big, but that doesn't seem big enough to be profitable.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:00 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 1:45 pm
He's lucky he's not looking for a new wife!
She sure seems to be a keeper :D
This shelter deck, more like a pilot house but open on one end?
Pretty much just that. something to keep the rain off your head.
What are they catching and how are they storing it in a sail hull? 53' is big, but that doesn't seem big enough to be profitable.
He fishes most of the year around so it varies by season. As for fish hold he boxes and freezes them on board. He can hold 40,000 pounds at a time. Seems like plenty for a two person crew :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:53 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 2:00 pmHe fishes most of the year around so it varies by season. As for fish hold he boxes and freezes them on board. He can hold 40,000 pounds at a time. Seems like plenty for a two person crew :D
Good lord... 20ton! They must have converted all but the salon to freezer. And if you don't have to pay the crew... Tell me the live on it too. They have to have a house someplace. My wife would put me in a freezer and send the boat with freezer with me straight to the bottom.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:59 pm
by Jaysen
Last of primer applied. Nothing new to see so...

Will spend tonight and Friday sketching/drafting blades and rudder cassette. Hopefully something for folks to make fun of and help me perfect.

I'm hoping that this high heat and low (for us) humidity will let primer cure by Saturday. The sides outside will have 72hr as will the transom. At a minimum I should be able to get a coat on them.

But who knows.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:03 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 3:53 pm
Good lord... 20ton! They must have converted all but the salon to freezer. And if you don't have to pay the crew... Tell me the live on it too. They have to have a house someplace. My wife would put me in a freezer and send the boat with freezer with me straight to the bottom.
[/quote]

He lives next door to me. Has a nice home but he is not there much. I have known him for 40 plus years. By not home much there are 8700 hours in a year. He has been averaging 6000 hours a year on the boats main for the past 6-8 years. Only in the past few years has he had any crew. Fished by himself for a long time. Said crew was more trouble than they were worth. Great guy but like I said he can be a tad difficult when on a boat :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:06 pm
by Fuzz
Hope to see pictures of her in primer soon. But I am pretty sure you are even more ready :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:13 pm
by Jaysen
Next pics will be of topcoat! Topcoat I tell you!

Need to co buy supplies though. Booo. Out of rollers and trays.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:00 pm
by Jaysen
Here are my thoughts on the rudder. I'm leaning toward the one on the right.

1051

There is a pin at the top to provide pivot to the blade and to anchor the tiller. The cassette is open in the back to allow the blade to swing out on impact. The lower portion of the blade is held in place either by shock chord or tiller compression. The leading edge of the blade is "notched" to allow a pin in tiller to lock the blade vertically. Lower edges of notch is ramped to allow easy raising. Lowering blade requires slight lift of tiller to free pin from notch allowing blade to drop.

The right version keeps the blade rotation closer to the original rudder keeping the primary force focused on the turn (yaw). The left version will create some vertical motion which will create a slight downward pressure at the transom.

Cassette sides will be 3/8" glassed. Spacer will be 1/2" of pine epoxied (glassed as part of larger cassette). Blade will be 3/8" glass created in a mold ala Peter C flyer fin. Blade will be 11" wide and 39" long.

Other than being ridiculously over complicated, what am I missing?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:03 am
by topwater
I see Mr Murphy has been whispering in your ear again . You are the only one i have seen make a simple cassette rudder more
complicated than they need to be . remember the kiss principle :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:18 am
by Jaysen
topwater wrote: Fri May 19, 2017 9:03 am I see Mr Murphy has been whispering in your ear again . You are the only one i have seen make a simple cassette rudder more
complicated than they need to be . remember the kiss principle :wink:
Yeah. I was thinking about that this morning. Maybe I just just build a wood core with FG copy of the original... I can use multiple pieces to build of the core and FG to provide strength. Then just add additional wood where the pintles need added thickness. Get her in the water then figure out what I need once I've got some practical experience in where I run into issues.

But that's not so much fun...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 9:51 am
by topwater
By all means build the cassette rudder but keep it simple . Make the rudder long enough to attach the tiller right to the top
of the rudder and just use a bungee to hold the rudder in the cassette , no pivot rod in cassette or rudder . Vary the amount
of rappes of bungee cord to adjust the amount of tension on the rudder. If you hit bottom it will pivot back and if you want
to run shallow just lift up on the rudder to adjust for depth .

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 10:23 am
by Jaysen
Top water,

With tiller attached to blade, doesn't they raise the height of the tiller as things are lifted in shallow water? That's why I was attaching to cassette...

I'm still considering using the crooked rudder to get her I. The water fast. That lets me get some experience with how real the need for a lifting rudder is. I've got the standard glued, just warped a bit. All I'll need to do to have Lil Bit sail ready is shape the rudder and make mast/sprit. Then I can give her some runs into the shallows and figure out the need.

I know it sounds wishy washy but maybe I'm over thinking this a bit.

Interior and exterior masked. Painting shall commence as soon as I triple read the mix ratios and make measuring cups. Yellow and white if in the very near future!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:04 pm
by Jaysen
I. Love. EMC LPU!!

That stuff goes on nicely. Get the runs out and it self levels. No tipping and it looks amazing. If I could afford it I would use it for every surface in my house. Worth. Every. Penny.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 3:18 pm
by Jaysen
Watching paint dry. Second coat white done. Yellow still a little green. So tempted to just keep painting.

Based on the coverage of white, I may only need two coats. Will have to pull tape and fix trim. So close.

Fork me. I just noticed I never put the transom knees on.

Fuzz, aren't you supposed to be keeping Murphy up there with you?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 3:30 pm
by Eric1
Lil Bit is looking NICE!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:49 pm
by Jaysen
I may be getting soft, but 2 coats may be enough. I still have to do the under mid seat, aft frame, rub rails, and bottom of mast partner and breasthook. Oh and I still need to pull tape. Most of that will require me to be in the boat. But I will be able to get it all in one batch.

I'll pull tape and get some pics once this coat has time to set. Not sure I'll actually get to the finishing touches today. I think the topcoat should harden a bit before I start walking on it.

Thoughts?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:51 pm
by Jaysen
Painting is nearly done done.

Pulled the tape. Cut in all the edges. Brushed what I could reach. Did rubrail. I'll post pics after some time with my feet in the salt water and a shower.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:15 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Looking forward to the photos 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:52 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Sat May 20, 2017 3:18 pm
Fork me. I just noticed I never put the transom knees on.

Fuzz, aren't you supposed to be keeping Murphy up there with you?
That is what you get for thinking and SAYING you were close to done :lol: :lol:

Mr. Murphy is alive and well. Seems to be enjoying his time down south :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 9:29 pm
by Jaysen
Here we go!

Edges masked to allow for fast and sloppy painting. Everything under the tape will be wihite
1055

1056

Oyster White hits the "horizontals". Nonskid on the floors. Straight on the rest. I really started to like the EMC topcoat.
1057

1058

Fighting Lady Yellow on the "verticals". The colors were EXACTLY what i wanted.
1059

1060

Second coats and a little bit of rub rail to get a feel for how that will look with the Oyster White... LOVED it. I also removed the sectioning tape from the nonskid areas to make the deck one consistent coat.
1061

You can see here where I started to work on the aft frame. It didn't seem right so I consulted with the Boss. She agreed, it wasn't right. Seat frames will be white.
1062

1063

1064

And the tape starts to come off! The transom was perfect. And again, the colors are perfect.
1065

I did start to find bleed under the blue tape. Mostly on the interior. This is the worst on the exterior. Nothing a few run ins with oysters wont fix. ;)
1066

1067

1068

1069

Remember that all the primer grey gets to be Oyster White soon....
1070

1071

Lots of cutting in with a brush. two coats on most of the masked areas, but with the brushing reducer it was too thin. Won't use quite so much tomorrow. Managed to get rub rails as well. I really really really like the colors.
1072

1073

1074

1075

1076

1077

Tomorrow I second coat the brushed areas and rub rail. The interior "should be" hard enough for me to climb in and get the seat frames as well as the underside of the mast partner and breasthook. Once that's done she'll sit for a few days to let everything harden up. While that's going on I'll start getting wood for mast, determine the IMMEDIATE rudder plan, and work on her "home cover" (old tarp cut to fit). Once the paint is hard I'm moving her out of the "workshop" so I can get the mast, spare, dagger, and rudder finished.

Water here I come!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 9:46 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen that is one fine looking "work boat"
I am predicting you and swmbo will be having lots of fun as soon as the paperwork is done.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 11:00 pm
by terrulian
Looks great...and appears so roomy compared to my V10. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 2:44 am
by gonandkarl
You said "Get it done" is the motto these days and I cannot believe it what You did from Thursday till today in a quality I will never achieve. It looks really fantastic.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 4:59 am
by Aripeka Angler
Very nice looking work. Smooth and fair 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 5:24 am
by Jaysen
Thanks guys. Don't let the shiny, long distance photos fool you. She's got some warts. I'll get some close ups of where I compromised.

My goal was "10 foot finish" as CL called it. I think I accidentally got a "5 foot finish". I'm not complaining but I want to be clear that it was pure dumb luck. Well... not true. I followed some basic "do it this way" rules. I'll go over my process a bit once I see her again this morning.

Thanks again for the compliments.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 6:38 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, really nice work!!! Great choice of colors. Not sure I would continue to refer to Lil Bit as a work boat but that is strictly up to you!! How did you like working with the EMC paints?? Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:42 am
by cape man
Nice. I too love the colors.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:52 am
by glossieblack
Congratulations Jaysen. She's a beauty. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 8:33 am
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 6:38 am Jaysen, really nice work!!! Great choice of colors. Not sure I would continue to refer to Lil Bit as a work boat but that is strictly up to you!! How did you like working with the EMC paints?? Jeff
Jeff, She's a work boat. The nice thing about the colors is that you can't see all the runs of yellow into white and drips of white on the yellow. They also lower the contrast so all the imperfections (and bad cut lines) aren't super noticeable. I was shooting for a 10' but I do think she'd pass a 5' walk by test. Once your up close and person the first thing that you ask is "did that moron actually sand this thing? Ever?" :$

The EMC is amazing. I want to paint my house with it. The only thing I dislike was the reducer. It doesn't seem to have a "middle" I started with the recommended 2:1:1 and I was begging for it to thicken back up to only be as thin as water. at 2:1:0.5 it was almost useable, but not really. At 2:1:0 the paint was a bit thick for my cheap brushes. I got to the point where I kept some reducer in cup and dipped my brush in it and to a fast swap at what I just painted. Kind of like going over a fillet with straight epoxy. When I type up my "what I'd do differently" list I'll comment on that in more detail.

Last coats of white on. I may need to spot touch some of the frames. The mid seat frame is a *itch. It will remain ugly until the boat is completed repainted. The trim is "done" but I'm not thrilled with how it turned out. Lesson for next time. I have a ton of runs from yesterday's brush coats (see above) but ... it is what it is. You can only see them if you are on top of her looking for the so I'm happy.

Rest of today is watching paint dry and cleaning up. Once the wet coat sets a bit I need to turn over the sand and bury all the drips. Tons of debris to get rid of as well. I'm a messy painter.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:06 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, thanks for the EMC feedback. I will give them a call and address your concern with the reducer. If I get any feedback I will certainly pass on!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:28 am
by Jaysen
Thanks Jeff. I'm pretty sure they will say "idiots shouldn't be allowed to paint". I'd agree.

Here are the "final" pics with the frames painted.
1078

1079

And here's my view from the captain's chair.
1080

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:37 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, she looks really good with that nice EMC paint job!! I will get back to you on the image issue first thing tomorrow when Jamie gets in to the shop!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:05 am
by Jaysen
No big deal on the image thing. I've seen the error a few times but managed to ... work around it (hazard of an it background). Working on the phone so not able to correct easily.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:40 am
by topwater
Love the colors , boat looks real nice :!: By all means hook the tiller to the cassette , i was thinking of a handle on top of the rudder
but i had a brain fart and wrote tiller :? Just another cloof moment , As the Cracker would say " build on ! "

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 8:27 pm
by Jaysen
Well... I have two things I think I need to fix asap.
1. Knees-- forgot to put them in
2. Oarlock-- may need to add backing plate.

On the knees, I'm guessing I'll need to remove paint. Sand until I cry. Glue in knees. Sand. Repaint. Miss anything?

Oarlock sockets are edge mounted two screws on top, 2 on side. I can go inside the hull or on outside of rubrail. I was thinking outside of rubrail as that would keep the inside free from snag points. The plans have a backing plate in the inside. If I'm going outside I don't think a plate has any use.
A. Which location is preferred?
B. What is the reason for preference?
C. With and edge mounted socket is the backing plate still needed?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:31 pm
by seaslug
Your boat came out beautiful, and I also love the colors....For future reference, and if BBV strikes again, the regular standard blue painters tape will not give a clean line, instead buy the blue 'Edge Lock' painters tape and you won't have any bleed through, but my favorite tape is the Frogs Tape yellow. Gives a perfect line with no bleed through, plus it's transparent so you can see pencil lines if yo use lines for a guide.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:37 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks seaslug. I saw that frog tape and remembered it being mentioned here but didn't think to pick it up. I'll not make that mistake again. I'll pick some up when I go get the wood for the mast.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 11:52 pm
by Fuzz
Dang Jasen I learned something really good from your thread :!: ...........................Of course it came from SeaSlug :lol: :lol: :lol:

The boat is really turning out nice :D It is going to make you nuts waiting for the paperwork :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:05 am
by topwater
Also 3M fine line tape is excellent for a clean edge.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:20 am
by Jaysen
Unrelated to actual boat work but still part of the pleasure of BBV

1. Look outside to and see hull. See reflection of self in mirror with dumb a$$ grin on your face.
2. You hear the Boss Lady open a blind and here a giggle followed but "it's so pretty!"

Mrs and I are planning a trip into town to pick up some supplies...
1. Brass screws for oarlock sockets
2. Stainless steel screws for gudgeon and pintles
3. A pile of 1x3x6 clear pine
4. A couple of feet of 3/8" wood dowel
5. A pile of wheels, PVC pipe and fittings for the "boat dolly"

This week will be a combination of mast, sprit and redneck ingenuity.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:53 am
by glossieblack
Happy wife, happy boat building life. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:31 pm
by terrulian
Jaysen...
Don't know what the boat dolly is for but I use the one in this link to get my boat from the street to the water's edge. I'm pretty sure will carry your boat. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HF ... UTF8&psc=1
The big wheels allow for very rough terrain or sand.
Also, I recommend a piece of remnant carpet to slide the hull off of a small embankment where the wheels won't go.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:12 pm
by Jaysen
I have something similar. what I keep running into is that the terrain causes the dolly to shift. I'm planning something more like a trailer but knock down for storage and secondary use on longer trips (will provide supports for electronics mounting and tent/netting). If you can imagine a "low boy" style boat trailer then you've got the idea.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:23 pm
by terrulian
I use a ratchet strap that keeps the boat secure to the dolly. No shifting.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:37 pm
by Jaysen
how is your's holding up in the salt water?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:57 pm
by Buz
Are you sure it needs knees?

Plans for my FB-11 say they're only needed with an outboard.

Lil Bit looks great and is highly motivational!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:02 pm
by terrulian
It will rust for sure.
I don't launch the boat in the water with it like a boat trailer. I take it off the cart next to the water, or alternatively, wheel it down the float at a ramp and then take it off the trailer and shove it in the water. This would definitely be two-person job with the V12; it's a handful with the V10. But the only hard part is getting it on and off the cart. Rolling it is easy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:33 pm
by Jaysen
Buz wrote: Mon May 22, 2017 1:57 pm Are you sure it needs knees?

Plans for my FB-11 say they're only needed with an outboard.
Buz, the build doc says "shape is unimportant but they are needed". There is no mention of the knees in the sail version, but the build notes for the sail version are only adding details. Given the extra glass all over I'm just not sure. They can clearly be added anytime so maybe I can wait for JM to get back from vacation.
terrulian wrote: Mon May 22, 2017 2:02 pm I don't launch the boat in the water with it like a boat trailer. I take it off the cart next to the water, or alternatively, wheel it down the float at a ramp and then take it off the trailer and shove it in the water. This would definitely be two-person job with the V12; it's a handful with the V10.
Tony, I need to single launch and do it on concrete. If I don't put the dolly in the water I'll have to carry/push the v12 about 30-45 feet over concrete. The other option is to literally throw her off a wall and hope wave action doesn't bring her right back into it. If I go for an alternate launch point I've got a 3/4mi walk to a sand beach. Then I'm in the same boat with having to get the hull about 50yds over rock piles (dune replacements) with no path wide enough for the hull. I'd kind of landed on the dolly idea after watching some kids launch a 16' laser at the local marina. They just walked down the street pulling the boat behind them, walked into the water and floated away (one of them did walk the dolly into a grassy area). It seemed like the right answer for Lil Bit.

My plan is PVC "frame", BMX style "mag" wheels with sealed bearings (replace axles with SS threaded rod) and using threaded PVC couplers at each reduction on the PVC. Two PVC "bunks" will support the hull and provide wheel attachment. A bent cross member will run between bunks at axle point. Axle point will be at 7.5' from bow. Bunks will join via bent cross member at 3.5 feet. A 4' long section of PVC will be split and bent to allow keel to settle into cradle with bow eye slot. A simple pin will lock the eye in place ensuring the fore/aft positioning. Plan for moving is actually to tie an oar to the breast hook and use it like a trailer tongue.

I'll sketch something up before I start assembling it.

1086

I'm not a draftsman, but that's the idea.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:49 pm
by terrulian
Sounds like you've got this sorted, which is good. I have a wide variety of launching challenges and they are obviously completely different. There are launch ramps around here but I don't drag my boat down them; instead I wheel the cart along the adjacent walkway to the float next to the ramp, and launch it there. I can also do this at the marina where I keep my Catalina 22, so I can row over to the Catalina and run a tow line. Then I can sail somewhere, anchor, and get in the dinghy to get to the places I can't go in the sailboat.
I also launch from sand, mud, and rocky beaches depending on where I'm headed.
I like your design; what are you using for wheels?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:03 pm
by Jaysen
My plan is some 16" or 20" BMX plastic things. They are typically 2-2.5" wide. I've found them with sealed bearing so all I'd ever need to replace is the bearing unit as everything else is plastic. I want the 20" as that will give me enough clearance at the transom to avoid hitting the skeg while moving around. If I go with smaller 16" I'll have to move the "axle" further aft which will increase "tongue weight" making it harder to move the hull if I have it loaded. The nice thing about using PVC is I can just get a coupler and add more length to parts if I need too.

I never would have expected all my jeep hauling and off roading to be so usable for a boat :)

If I had a vehicle larger than Lil Bit, I could take her a few miles to the county ramp and do things like you are. Neither the MG Midget nor the Chevy Volt would make good boat haulers. Not that I haven't thought about it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:11 pm
by terrulian
A man of many thoughts.
I find many of these ruminations and inventions as pleasurable as anything else in boat stuff. I would lie awake many's the night visualizing installations on my 39-footer, which had to work comfortably at various angles of roll and pitch.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:55 pm
by Jaysen
Parts run fail. Have the small parts for the dilly but no mast or long PVC. Did get screws for par locks and rudder.

And I need a bigger car. Something that will hold 8feet of 1x3

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:32 pm
by Fuzz
Your two hands and your running shoes. Lets you kill two birds with one stone :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:14 am
by Jaysen
Very limited cargo capacity and range with that setup fuzz. Very limited.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:37 pm
by Jaysen
Process check...

Mounting things to hull...

1. Measures 374937 times
2. Measure it again you moron (directed at Jaysen)
3. Drill normal pilot
4. Test install but do NOT go on water.
5. Over drill 2x thread size (ex if #8 pilot drill #12) using pilot as guide.
6. Fill hole with thickened epoxy.
7. Take nap
8. Drink rum.
9. Repeat 7.
10. Drill new pilot in hardened epoxy.
11. SLOWLY install making sure you don't strip screw head.
12. Curse at yourself for number of stripped screws.
13. Go to store and buy more screws.
14. Replace stripped screws.
15. Go. Kill. Fish.

Did I miss anything?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:47 pm
by Fuzz
16. No job is complete until the paperwork is done :cry:

Really looking forward to seeing Lil Bit on the water.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:55 pm
by Jaysen
If I've got the sequence confirmed correct I may, just may, have a test float and stroke this weekend. Just won't risk step 15 until 16 is done.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:08 pm
by Fuzz
We will be waiting eagerly for the pictures. Remember "it did not happen without pictures" quoted from Cracker Larry :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:24 pm
by Jaysen
Fine.

Test placement of oarlock sockets at recommended location.
1105

1104

Just need to make sure I plant the screws in the wood properly.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:24 pm
by Jeff
Lil Bit is really looking good after that EMC paint!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:48 pm
by Jaysen
So close to getting her on the water. I may just row her around the launch.
1108

1109

And yes I know the oar collars are too large. Someone can't do basic size comparisons.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:19 pm
by Fuzz
Its time. Hook the motor up to those twin props and lets see some action photos :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:22 pm
by Jaysen
Got some epoxy curing on the screw holes. Pilot and final install TOMORROW!

Illegal boating tomorrow afternoon?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:25 pm
by Fuzz
Perfect for post number 1000 :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:29 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Looks great! I say launch it 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:06 pm
by terrulian
What's wrong with the oar collars?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:10 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 10:06 pm What's wrong with the oar collars?
They are 3/8" diameter too large. Really the cheap oars are 3/8" diameter to small if you want to be exact about it. As mentioned earlier... all my fault.
Fuzz wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 9:25 pm Perfect for post number 1000 :D
I hadn't noticed! I'd agree.
Aripeka Angler wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 9:29 pm Looks great! I say launch it 8)
I've opted to risk a float tomorrow. Lil Bit is right on the edge of needing to be registered (numbers displayed) and I'll be up in the docks which should get me left alone. Pics and video WILL be provided.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:20 am
by terrulian
Cool. Exciting day!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:21 am
by cape man
Hope the weather there is as gorgeous as here. Exciting day!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:13 am
by Jaysen
Early reports (aka me standing on a dock saying "today I shall float on your surface in my BOAT!") indicate a bit of wind, calm seas (relative calm) and favorable tide for a post lunch experimental float. Boss Lady has promised to video ("if it sinks I want to have it to send to the kids") and there may be a bit of audience. Apparently the "dumba$$ yankee" and his activities are the subject of much thought and debate in these parts.

I'm officially calling this "not a launch". I will consider her first "sail trail" the official launch. I hope no one is too upset about that.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 9:32 am
by Eric1
I hope it goes as planned Jaysen! Happy Memorial Weekend!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:06 pm
by Jeff
I hope the "testing" non-launch goes well Jaysen!! Send us photos!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:10 pm
by Jaysen
Well... there's a small problem.

Everyone mixes a bad batch once in a while right?

Epoxy still soft. Screws not holding. It's been 80+ since yesterday. Cleaning out the holes and making a new batch.

Looks like tomorrow will be the next test opportunity

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:13 pm
by Fuzz
Well...................crap :cry:
Hope tomorrow is a better day.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:19 pm
by Jaysen
Today isn't so bad.

Bigger problem for tomorrow... no help from the boss since she's working.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:29 pm
by Fuzz
Clamp them on and go for it. You know, hold my beer and watch this :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:33 pm
by Jaysen
With the style I'm using there's no easy way to clamp. If there was... I'd be sunburnt from lazing about in the shallows.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:37 pm
by Fuzz
Well I guess we will just have to say good things come to those who wait :roll:

Fair warning................I will see you in October. Bring good rum :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:44 pm
by Jaysen
One of us is in trouble. The other is me!

I'll have to grab a few bottles. You can never have enough.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:27 am
by Jaysen
Sun of a... The epoxy isn't set enough for securing the oarlock sockets. Much better than last time (solid, not tacky just not hard) but just not ready for drill and screw. The frustrating part is that it was a full batch just to make sure I got the ratio right. The boat lifting assistant will be out for a while so it will get a bit more time to set.

On the other side, I took some time to wrap the oars in rope to thicken them up. Not quiet enough to eliminate the need for the collar but if it works I'll use a thicker wrap and bail on the collars. Nothing as fancy as Tony's set up but better than black plastic.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:42 am
by terrulian
This is very frustrating! What a time for the epoxy not to kick!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:04 am
by Jaysen
It's the entire pot. It kicked just seems to not be hardening as fast as I recall. Granted I've miss judged the time in the past but I can't imagine that fast would take 16hr to be hard enough to accept a screw. As it is I can push a tack into it with only a little bit of pressure.

Tony, on an unrelated related topic... what do you recommend as a handle separation distance on the oars? I was planning on 12" at closest but seems that 24" is more comfortable on land. The 12" allows more fire/aft motion though as the 24" creates too much separation at the end of the forward motion (blade forward, hands aft). I did wrap the oars to allow me adjustment but not sure where to start. Any suggestions?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:55 am
by terrulian
Jacques rows with crossed hands, which is not uncommon, but I don't. I think there is a literal rule of thumb which is that the inboard ends of the oars should be two thumbs away from each other. My guess is that the distance you are considering will give you very poor leverage.
Check the link below.
There are other online sources as well. Shaw and Tenney are pretty high end but on the other hand there are even more expensive oars out there somewhere. Rowing can get pretty arcane and snobby, but why not, everything else is. People can go several directions in one-upmanship: performance, craftsmanship, and tradition.
I got mine from Grapeview and talked to the guy there, who is probably the owner, and ended up with 8' oars, as applying the formula to my boat got me exactly between 7.5 and 8. Jacques, I believe, said get the longest oars you can handle. Mine seem about right but I have nothing to compare them with.
http://www.shawandtenney.com/blog/how-p ... owing-oars

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:13 am
by Jaysen
Hmm. Basically I've got it all wrong! Thanks for the pointers. I'll do some research. Nothing is permanent yet so I've got options to fix it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:47 pm
by Fuzz
Something very strange with your epoxy. In your temps it should be rock hard in 4 hours if you are using fast. I use fast all the time. I keep my shop around 60f and overnight it is ready to sand all the time. :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:53 pm
by Jaysen
That's what I'm thinking. The pot is finally hard in the core. I'm wondering if it's the silica. The edges of the pot are still flexible. Hoping it will set up in the next couple hours.

I'm not sure I can over drill these holes again.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:03 pm
by Fuzz
Not sure how the silica affects things, I do not use it much. I pretty much use wood flower for everything.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:08 pm
by Jaysen
I've never seen it soft like this. All I can think of is that it's retaining water. If I do have to redrill these I'll use wood flour.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:09 pm
by terrulian
Silica hasn't affected the drying time for me. It is a bit mysterious but the fact that some has kicked is a good sign. You have to mix a pretty bad batch before it fails, although I've had to wait longer than expected from time to time.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 3:56 pm
by Jaysen
22hr in and it's still pliable. Not as bad as last check but at the point of calling it no good. I know the mix ratio is right for resin to hardener. What other factors could I be missing?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:41 pm
by terrulian
Only that you didn't mix it enough. I doubt that, as you've been doing this for awhile. It's odd, but I might wait another day.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:50 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks for the vote of confidence tony. There's been a development that has me agreeing.

Went to go over drill on a whim I decided to practice mounting he sockets. Screw got tight and would not pull out with leverage applied. Bottom of holes are solid! Is only the top layer. Can't push the tack into the hole. Finished mounting socket and could not make it wiggle with a 2' bar over the rod that fit in the socket. I think I'm good!

Mounting second socket now. Then putting her on the cart for a float test.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:20 pm
by terrulian
Great.
If the screws eventually pull out, you merely need to do what you were planning anyway--re-drill and fill again.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:32 pm
by Jaysen
That was my thought.

She's loaded and ready for the water to come back in. Tide too low for launch.
IMG_4123.JPG

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:33 pm
by terrulian
Sweet!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:41 pm
by Fuzz
Oooh la la we be waiting to see this action :D I love seeing someone pull oars. Seeing them, not doing it myself :lol:

I think Tony may be on to something with your epoxy. I know some brands really want you to use the double pour and mix method. It is possible to have stringers that do not cure well if your mixing was incomplete :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:52 pm
by Jaysen
I was right about the cart... with the added weight of the glass and "over build" by dumba$$ the wheels aren't excited about the load. That location is just about COG (she will gladly sit bow or stern down). the keel line stability os complete fecal matter. Way. Too. High. The one I'm making will have the hull MUCH lower with a much wider wheel base which should fix it.

For the first time I've seen her just "there". I have to say, she's twice as pretty in the yard as she is in the back. The finish definitely shows my lack of attention in the bright light. Next time she gets painted I'll be spending more time fairing. I'll also need to consider spraying the areas under the mid seat to get them a bit better. all the misses are noticeable with her up at eye level. That said, neither the fish nor the boss will care.

Very happy and she's not even on the water yet.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 6:01 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Sun May 28, 2017 5:41 pm Oooh la la we be waiting to see this action :D I love seeing someone pull oars. Seeing them, not doing it myself :lol:

I think Tony may be on to something with your epoxy. I know some brands really want you to use the double pour and mix method. It is possible to have stringers that do not cure well if your mixing was incomplete :doh:
Those oars are my "other workout". Run in the AM, go slay fish in the PM. Reduce the amount of me one stroke of the oars at a time.

I'm using BBC Marin Epoxy. Exact same method I've used for every pour in the build. Including the rebuild of the rub rail (which is about 25% silica epoxy mix and 75% ply). The only thing I can think of is the silica holding moisture, or I put too much in there (but I used much less than normal so the air would bubble out of the holes). I'm completely stumped.

The on thing that has me concerned is that I had the SAME problem with some fairing coats. Is it possible something has gone wrong with the resin or hardener? I did just use up the last of a bottle of resin. It's the same hardener bottle I've been using since I ordered the fast. I do still have the mast and sprit to build. if I have a problem with the epoxy components then I'm going to be in trouble.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 6:57 pm
by Fuzz
I have a hard time believing the epoxy is bad. Different brands but I used system 3 that was over 23 years old to build my dory. It has not fallen apart yet :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:11 pm
by Jaysen
Tomorrow I get to build a new cart. That one is now in pieces.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:11 pm
by Jaysen
Gentleman,

I'm in love. Haven't seen the video yet but here's the scoop.

1. Sits with transom OUT OF THE WATER without my back side in it.
2. Sits with transom just in the water with me in center.
3. No. Visible. Difference. If I sit in mid or aft seat.
4. She's fast. She's numble.
5. She draws a crowd. Word got out she was hitting the water and folks came to see it. They weren't up by the Mrs but the golf carts of the old timers were behind her watching.
6. Large wake no problem. Barely felt it.
7. Empty dagger trunk means wet cheeks. All wave action.
8. My fat a$$ can walk around with no issues.
9. She's fast. 3kn current and I was able to make headway with the wind to the starboard (no sail but no assist). Can't wait to get her moving under wind.

You all steered me to the right boat and then helped me build her. She looks hot on they water. She moves like a Latin dancer. Everything I've hoped for and I've not got the mast on her yet.

Off to edit some video!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:44 pm
by Fuzz
While waiting for the video I have to say Lil Bit sure turned out nice. I think the V10-12 is the best looking design on the whole site.

You said you were waiting on tide. What is the tide range there? Just for reference we run up to 30 foot around here. Tidal current is about 5.5 knots.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:56 pm
by Jaysen
9' on average. Springs up to 13'. The max current on springs is 6kn. Normally 3-4kn like today. Unpowered I need to plan trips on tidal flow more than anything else. Luckily the fish seem to be on the tidal schedule around here as well.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:41 pm
by Fuzz
That is more tidal action than I would have thought that far south. You had better get those arms in shape :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:43 pm
by terrulian
3k is about my top speed.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:16 pm
by Jaysen
Using my iphone app last year, I was drifting on the current at 4kn laying flat on a calm day. I would say that was a normal day. Today was the same just a bit breezy. I put those 7.5' oars in the water and pulled right into the current at full incoming tide. She shot forward like a whipped mare. I will say that I was pulling on the oars. I'm not good at rowing so I'm sure I'm wasting a lot of effort for now. Still... She exceeded my expectations by a LOT.

Video took a while. Titles and all. I'll post it here once it's up and done.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:26 am
by Jaysen
Here we go!

Forgive the poor editing. It's been a while. Also, forgive the shaky camera... Mrs isn't used to think about about it. This is not a linear timeline. I've moved some things around to make it a bit shorter and less... seasick inducing.

There are credits at the end...

[youtube]https://youtu.be/ac_bEkoFmlM[/youtube]

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 2:40 am
by Fuzz
Way cool launch of a new boat :!: You went out, came back, did not get hurt. It was a great day all the way around.
Now that the pressure is off I bet there is some rum being consumed this evening. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:57 am
by Aripeka Angler
Congratulations on the launch! Well done sir.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:17 am
by cape man
Well done! Looks like years of fun to come.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:21 am
by Jaysen
I was out for about 30min. Quite a bit of fussing with oars. I need to go get supplies to build the new dolly as the one I used yesterday is in two pieces.

Even though I'm not quite done yet, I want to thank all of you for the inspiration, encouragement, instruction and a few "kicks in the a$$" I needed. I rarely worked on Lil Bit without all of you right there with me (phone set to a post talking about the method I was learning). This boat was built by the forum not just me.

Fuzz, the rum never made it out of the bottle! I was too busy gnawing on the Mrs ear about how glorious Lil Bit is. And then I had that video. By the time I thought about rum I apparently drifted off waiting for the upload to finish. This boat appears to be a positive influence (this week). Although she did drive me to drink a number of times over the last 9 months.

Today's plan.
1. Hardware run (pvc, mast/sprit wood, wheels)
2. Cart assembly, both lil bit and kayak.
3. Cart use!
4. Glue up for mast and sprit.

Number 4 has me thinking. More on that a bit later.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:25 am
by glossieblack
Very nice Jaysen. Congrats and well done. 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:33 am
by Jaysen
Thanks GB. She's my little eco fish getter/wife amuser. Win win for me.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:23 am
by gonandkarl
You boat turned out to be a beauty and even that I am colour blind I can see the colour combination is fantastic. Congratulations on the splashing and soon you will enjoy the sailing with it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:13 am
by Buz
"Stern Candy" for now. :wink:

That boat looks great!!

BTW, I used hemp twine to build up my oars under the clamps. Tough stuff, especially after painting/soaking with glue, and easy to adjust thickness.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:13 am
by terrulian
Great video!
I like "bow candy" for the wife...but I don't know how she'd like it up there. 8O
Boat sits beautifully in the water. I wouldn't say that when I was building mine I doubted that it would, but still, it's a whole different feeling when it looks and behaves so well on the water. I've taken some videos from on board and am still working on that but as yet haven't really captured how it feels.

Congrats!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:13 am
by Eric1
Congrats Jaysen! Well Done!!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:26 am
by topwater
The boat looks great and moves well on the water , a great launch :!: Glad to see that Mr Murphy took the day off .
Can't wait to see her under sail, now get back to work :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 11:38 am
by Jaysen
Thanks guys.

Just got back from lowes. Will have pics and more in a bit.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:07 pm
by Jaysen
Initial cart build is a fail. I think it is more a "modified part" than a real issues of "not the right material". The one spot I'm seeing a possible issue is the axle "T". Too much flex. Axle member needs to be solid. Need to figure that out still.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:12 pm
by Jaysen
Catching up on the weekend photos...

This is the original cart. It did not like the heavy build of Lil bit.
1120

And when I say "did not like" I mean ... it laid down and had a temper tantrum about out.
1121

Luckily my neighbors are fans of Lil Bit so they got her in the water and then got her home. Since I had her off the cradle I moved it to the final location as directed by the boss and put my temporary home made cover on her. I need to work on the cover some more but I like how it's starting to come together.
1122

Since I needed a cart, two actually, One for Liil Bit and the other to replace the no longer living kayak cart.
1119

My doing some "precision" work. Actually, I did make it pretty exact just to be safe with how Lil Bit would sit on it.
1125

Here's the axle assembly. This was the original one that failed. That fail was due to some old cement. I went back to the store and got more supplies and cement to rebuild.
1126

And here we are! The bow is expected. The wheels work well, but my actual axle (!/2" stainless bolt, a couple of washer, lock nut) is not playing nice nice with the wheel. Worked well enough for me to show it conceptually this evening. Cheers from the neighbors. I have ideas on how to fix it.
1123

The bunks will be trimmed and curved a bet. I have not run a cross or tongue yet. Just using it like a cart.
1124

All in all the cart plan is working. I need to fix a few things, but I'm good with it for now.

If you noticed the pile of wood in the supply shot you can probably guess what I'm starting tomorrow. I'm still thinking up a profile template to make the shaping easier. Thinking 1/4" ply and a trim bit. Clamp it all together, drill peg holes, dry peg, trim with router, disassemble, glue. Problem is that it only works in one dimension. still thinking...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:44 am
by gonandkarl
Hi,
I have the same cart as your old bust one and I managed to move my FS13 and the heavy 45 kg Micro Petrel around with it quite well without the alu parts bending. Maybe you got a Monday cart with too thin alu. I like your new cart and I am always learning how to improve our world around boats. Wish you further lots of fun with your new boat and I am looking forward to your first sail.
Greetings from Karl

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:49 am
by Fuzz
Jaysen Lil Bit has turned out really nice :!: :!: You should be well pleased with yourself.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 6:31 am
by cape man
What if you ran a piece of 1/2" all thread through the pipe as an axel?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:50 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, Lil Bit looks great!! Really nice colors!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:43 am
by Jaysen
gonandkarl wrote: Tue May 30, 2017 1:44 am I have the same cart as your old bust one and I managed to move my FS13 and the heavy 45 kg Micro Petrel around with it quite well without the alu parts bending. Maybe you got a Monday cart with too thin alu.
I'm guessing I'm over 56kg (125lb) on Lil Bit. The cars are rated at 48kg (105lb) so the failure is expected. Especially when you look at the rough terrain I was going over. I'm not disappointed in the cart. It's my fault it broke. Now I just need to make one that won't explode :)
cape man wrote: Tue May 30, 2017 6:31 am What if you ran a piece of 1/2" all thread through the pipe as an axel?
I think the problem is the actual wheels. I need to pull them off and verify, but without a real bearing/bushing I may just be pushing the limits of the design. My "guess" that it's the wheels is that post move they are sloppy on the axles but there is no slop in the axle itself. Has to be oval-ing of what passes for a busing. Options; new wheels, over drill and sleeve, lubrication. When I disassemble at lunch I'll asses the wheels and figure out what action I want to take.
Fuzz wrote: Tue May 30, 2017 1:49 am Jaysen Lil Bit has turned out really nice :!: :!: You should be well pleased with yourself.
Jeff wrote: Tue May 30, 2017 7:50 am Jaysen, Lil Bit looks great!! Really nice colors!! Jeff
I'm less pleased with me and more pleased that you all (the whole forum) stepped up to keep me out of the weeds on this. An example is the color selection... I doubt Jeff remembers, but he actually pushed the Oyster White over my first choice. "That one you are looking at is pretty bright, you sure you want that?" The selection of the v12... I didn't want that... was all JM, CL and the rest of you all chiming in. Same with the glassing of the bottom (which is already showing wear), methods to use and just about every technical step. 100% team effort.

Now, who can tell me how to make this mast and sprit using only a jig saw, router, and sand paper? ;)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 10:11 am
by gonandkarl
Hi,
This link might help you:

[imgur2]http://www.woodenboat.com/whiskey_plank ... oden-masts[/imgur2]

or this one is even better:

[imgur2]http://www.boat-building.org/learn-skil ... den-spars/[/imgur2]

Greetings from Karl

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 10:18 am
by terrulian
Thanks for all the updates.
My V10 weighs 125 but it is built a little heavier since I glassed the seats, gunwales, breasthook, knees, and bottom. I think you did some but not all of that. But if your boat weighs 125 you did well.
As to the cart: My biggest hassle launching the boat is getting it on and off the cart at the beach or marina. Let me know if you have a trick for that.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:38 am
by Jaysen
gonandkarl wrote: Tue May 30, 2017 10:11 am Hi,
This link might help you:
...
I'd run into those before! Thanks for point them out again. Based on my checklist I think the wooden boat site heavily influenced my plan.
terrulian wrote: Tue May 30, 2017 10:18 am Thanks for all the updates.
My V10 weighs 125 but it is built a little heavier since I glassed the seats, gunwales, breasthook, knees, and bottom. I think you did some but not all of that. But if your boat weighs 125 you did well.
As to the cart: My biggest hassle launching the boat is getting it on and off the cart at the beach or marina. Let me know if you have a trick for that.
I'm trying to rig up some way to weigh her. Hard to do with no roof and no solid floor! My guess of 125 is based on supplies used so far that exceed the build spec. Several pounds of fillers, 2gal extra epoxy, 4yrd 12oz glass, 1.5qt EMC (that stuff is heavy!), foam, etc. With a base hull weight of 98lbs (study plans) I shouldn't be too far off.

To date I've just dropped the bow on the ground, lifted the stern till hull clear of cart, take three steps sideways to clear side of boat, lower stern. Granted I'm on sand 100% of the times right now so it's been working. My larger plan it to walk her right into the water still on the cart. Once she's floating I'll remove the straps and disassemble cart. I expect that to be ... not right at the shoreline :)

If you're thinking "he's nuts" you are probably right. At least everyone seems to agree with that thought.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:00 pm
by terrulian
The first method is what I use but unfortunately there is a shortage of sand beaches where I launch. It is also very difficult when the space is narrow. I end up swiveling the boat where the bow touches down as you describe and this will eventually need repair. I have considered a strap of Kevlar about 3-4" wide from the skeg to that pivot point and may still do that. It will be ugly, however...but so am I and no one has killed me for it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:54 pm
by Jaysen
I'm convinced that the only way to avoid slide/pivot issues is to just walk the cart right into the water. Just like a boat on a trailer at a ramp. I figured I'd be in that situation which is why I was so "poo poo" on the metal cart.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:59 pm
by terrulian
Yes, you're absolutely right, that would work best. If you come up with a design I'd be very interested. The tongue is important because otherwise you're going to get pretty wet retrieving the cart.
There is also the issue of getting the boat from my van at a height of about 3 1/2 feet onto the cart.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:02 pm
by Jaysen
Quick inspection revealed little. The wheels look fine and ARE sleeved with a metal bushing. I think what I've run into is just the wearing in of the parts as they rotated. I will be putting some grease on there just to reduce the friction a bit.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:33 pm
by Jaysen
Boat building is not good therapy for me after a particularly bad day at work. I did things out of order which means I have a bunch of screws all the way through the mast. I may just wind up buying new wood and starting over.

Oh well.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:36 pm
by Fuzz
Don't push it. You have all the hard work behind you :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:40 pm
by Jaysen
In this particular case the wood was already soaked so I either forged ahead and hope it comes out or start a bonfire. Bonfire may still happen.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:13 am
by Jaysen
Did a spot check this AM... Slow hardener glue hard as a rock. Mast straight. A few gaps that I can drill and fill. More assessment later tonight when i pull screws..

This leaves me with questions about my epoxy mixing...
1. I used new bottle of resin. could that have been the problem?
2. I used wood flour instead of silica. could that have been the problem?
3. I used the old bottle of slow not the fast hardener. could that be the problem?
4. Since I was using slow, did I mix better?

I may mix up a batch of fast tonight just to see. I do need to over drill and fill the screw holes so it won't be wasted.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:03 pm
by terrulian
I can't help you other than to say that in 25 years or so of mixing epoxy for all kinds of different applications using many different brands and different speeds of hardeners, I have never had a job that I mixed and measured properly fail to harden. A bad batch was always the fault of yours truly. I cannot speculate beyond telling you what my experience is.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:30 pm
by Fuzz
I have seen resin leave stringers of soft material if it was not mixed properly. Other than that I agree if mixed and measured properly it goes off. I do not believe age makes a difference if the epoxy was stored correctly.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:53 pm
by terrulian
I forgot to mention a couple of extreme examples:
1) I have used epoxy that was 10 years old. I did a test batch first and when this kicked, I used it for the project and have not had a problem.
2) During my build I accidentally poured some excess hardener into the resin jug. :doh: (I've told this story so forgive the repetition.) I reasoned that if I didn't touch it there would be a blob of hardened epoxy where it dropped so I waited a day and scooped it out. Jacques said not to use the remaining epoxy on the boat but I didn't discard it and later in another project, tried it and it kicked fine with no problems.

None of this means that in your case there wasn't a bad batch, bad atmospheric conditions, or your favorite saint, Murphy, at work, of course! :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:02 pm
by dbcrx
Jaysen wrote: Wed May 31, 2017 11:13 am Did a spot check this AM... Slow hardener glue hard as a rock. Mast straight. A few gaps that I can drill and fill. More assessment later tonight when i pull screws..

This leaves me with questions about my epoxy mixing...
1. I used new bottle of resin. could that have been the problem?
2. I used wood flour instead of silica. could that have been the problem?
3. I used the old bottle of slow not the fast hardener. could that be the problem?
4. Since I was using slow, did I mix better?

I may mix up a batch of fast tonight just to see. I do need to over drill and fill the screw holes so it won't be wasted.
I vote 4!

Old resin should still work.
Silica shouldn't cause any issues - even if it got damp it would probably only make the resin a bit cloudy, but it should still go hard.
If the fast hardener was working before, no reason it will have suddenly gone bad.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:07 pm
by Jaysen
I'm pretty dang sure I had the ratio right. I use the same measures and use the CL separation method (resin on the right on a red cup, hardener on the left with other color cup). Everything gets hot on schedules, just never gets hard. I won't rule out that I somehow contaminated either the fast hardener or that last bottle of resin. I guess I'll need to make some test batches straight, silica and wood with both hardeners just to see.

I'm still not ruling out a "stir it enough" issue (aka "Fuzzy mixing"). I just don't see how slow would work faster than fast.

And yes Fuzz, I know which bottle is which. The slow is a BIG bottle, the fast is the LITTLE bottle...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:08 pm
by Jaysen
dbcrx wrote: Wed May 31, 2017 1:02 pmI vote 4!
I think that is the consensus.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:30 pm
by cape man
I'm trying to rig up some way to weigh her. Hard to do with no roof and no solid floor!
A bathroom scale and two guys. Piece of scrap ply for the scale to sit on. Pick the boat up, one guy on the scale, read it (great job for the bow candy as you call her - reading the scale). Put the boat down, move the scale to the other guy and repeat. Add the two weights. I weighed Hermine that way and then with two bathroom scales with both guys standing on the scales and got weights within 1 pound of each other. Keep the boat as close to the same level while weighing if using one scale.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:33 pm
by cape man
Oh yeah...subtract the weight of the men :roll: :roll: :doh: :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:59 pm
by terrulian
I actually rigged a block and tackle with a scale to weigh mine. It was accurate but it cost me a little for the scale...however, don't you guys all have fish scales that weigh upwards of 150??? :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:39 pm
by Jaysen
Evening work fail...

Went to work on mast. Broke screw driver. Broke second screwdriver. Broke screw. Swore. Drank beer.

Now that I'm out of tools to work on mast will turn attention to making spar tomorrow.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:23 pm
by Fuzz
cape man wrote: Wed May 31, 2017 3:33 pm Oh yeah...subtract the weight of the men :roll: :roll: :doh: :D
I was tempted to say something about a 600# V-12 but I am going to pass :roll:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:33 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Wed May 31, 2017 10:23 pm
cape man wrote: Wed May 31, 2017 3:33 pm Oh yeah...subtract the weight of the men :roll: :roll: :doh: :D
I was tempted to say something about a 600# V-12 but I am going to pass :roll:
Funny man. Funny.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:37 pm
by Fuzz
I am just like the S.O.B. tool. You love me but do not want to admit it :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:38 pm
by Jaysen
If I had a scale that could take 50lb more I'd just flip the hull, lift her on my back and step on scale. I moved her like that before painting. And seats. And foam. Hmmm... that's a bad idea.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:39 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Wed May 31, 2017 10:37 pm I am just like the S.O.B. tool. You love me but do not want to admit it :lol: :lol: :lol:
If you were like that SOB tool it take you out back and dispose of you in a hole. That's what's about to happen to the sob

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:43 pm
by Fuzz
:cry:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:47 pm
by Jaysen
If that SOB eats another blade or sanding pad I will kill it. Kill it i tell you. Kill it with 0.40" of lead, arrows, fire, bricks and anything else that will end it.

I
Hate
That
Tool

But it is useful. Which makes me hate it even more.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:54 pm
by Fuzz
I have about 6 sanding pads. The only way I can keep the sanding disk on the pad is to use spray adhesive. It is a pain to peel them off but at least I can get some use out of them. The blades are way over priced but I have found so many uses for them I just buck up and buy them.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:08 pm
by Jaysen
Son of a biscuit!

Two hours and hree broken screwdrivers later and I remembered "dumb a$$ has an impact driver with special bits!" Two minutes later and all the screws were out. The glue up was a tad warped but measuring it all falls into the cut off areas so it's good. Cut the parts for the sprit and then things got ugly.

Not to dump personal BS on the forum, but the fan collided with a giant pile of fecal matter. Got a call that I've got to lay off folks. Problem is that the folks are all "new" and several of them moved for these jobs. Add to that and I try to hire folks as a "family unit" and it gets real tough to pick which family member goes.

Then nature added insult by unleashing just enough rain to push all the bugs under my shelter. On the one day I decided not to use bug spray. Haven't had a rash like this since I mistook some poison ivy for Virginia creeper.

Then mom nature decided to get mean. Gosh. Damn. Kidney stone. Been a few years since I had one but you never forget that soul crushing pain in the back. Luckily I had a clue or two that this was coming so I already stocked up on my standard remedies. I guess that's what you learn from a couple trips to the hospital for emergency plumbing cleanout.

Not sure if I'll get to spar glue up for a couple days... or anything else for that matter. So much for a weekend of rowing.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:08 pm
by Eric1
Sorry you're having a rough patch.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:33 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, very sorry!! I hear that is really painful!! Take care of yourself!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:58 pm
by Jaysen
Been dealing with stones for 25yrs. Personnel issues is why they pay me the "medium" dollars. The bugs, well it's a small price to pay to live here in paradise. The boat stuff... well that's just part of the boat building.

Thanks for letting me vent guys.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:28 pm
by Jeff
Just take care of yourself!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:30 pm
by Fuzz
So does this mean I should not pick on you today :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:33 pm
by Jaysen
Nope. I figure this is just me handing you ammo. Fire away.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:41 pm
by Fuzz
naa too easy today. Sounds like you need to spend some time taking care of yourself. Never had them but I have been told kidney stones are no fun at all.
As for the work issues that sucks. The thing I hated most in my job was dealing with personnel issues. And in this new kinder, genital world we live in, my boss would not let me just fire everyone that needed it. :cry:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:05 pm
by Jaysen
Come on fuzz... let me have it.

Like I said, I'm well practiced in dealing with these things. The long term effects of literally pissing gravel are starting to catch-up with me though. One of my female coworkers recently experienced a kidney stone and contacted me. She asked "how do you do this?" She suggested childbirth was less painful. I'm not sure that's true but...

The work thing is really more my fault. 4yrs ago I hired an amazing team. We became friends and even after they left for better opportunities we remained close friends. When I took this new job I was able to hire a core of them back. Now budget is forcing downsizing. It a now win for me. These guys are all mature and while it's easy to say "it's just business" I'm concerned that the friendship will be killed.

Enough moping. You owe us pics of fish it boats. Get busy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:39 pm
by Fuzz
Well spring showed up here yesterday. It was plumb hot here, low 70s and no wind :D So have a trip planned for Saturday and we will see what happens.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:37 am
by Jaysen
Recommendations on power planers?

Use: ummm... boat building. Pretty much it.
Size: lil Bit and similar smaller boats.
Concerns: needs to be able to smoothly eat epoxy AND have commodity blades. Not concerned about brand names.

I just decided that the mast and spar are just too large to do without a power tool.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:05 am
by pee wee
I was shopping for a power planer a while back and decided on one of the Bosch models, but I think if you're only going to give it rare use you'd be fine with an inexpensive planer. Looking at reviews on Amazon it looks like people are happy with several of the sub $100 planers- use the savings to buy rum!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:04 pm
by Fuzz
I have had one for 30 years that I do not use very often but it is sure handy when I do need it. It will eat wood/epoxy with no problem. Works really good if you glue a butt block on the wrong side :wink: I will have to look at the brand and get back to you.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:42 pm
by BB Sig
I bought a Ryobi on craigslist for $20. Hardly used before I bought it and still has very little use. Gives excellent results for as little as I use it. I probably need to change the blades before I use it again. Then I can rotate between the sets every 2 years. :roll:

Worth a look in your area if you don't need it right away.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:19 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:04 pmWorks really good if you glue a butt block on the wrong side :wink:
how could you possibly know this?
BB Sig wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:42 pm Worth a look in your area if you don't need it right away.
That's my problem. I kind of want to get these things done this weekend. Should be able to glue up the sprit tonight, do shaping tomorrow, seal tomorrow night and be ready for paint sunday. That assumes I find one locally.

I'm leaning toward the cheapest one I find at a HW store. Looks like I can get a Porter Cable for ~$80 at Lowes. I'm well under the price of buying alum tube from dwyer so no need to look used.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:12 pm
by Jaysen
Since it all get cut up significantly I managed a quick and sloppy glueup on the sprit and a hole fill on the mast. Hoping Mrs will be in a good mood for evening run to get planer. Not holding my breath.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:14 pm
by Fuzz
I looked at mine, it is a Eula? I think that was a Black&Decker line long ago. Anyway I do not use it much but it is sure handy when I need one.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:42 pm
by Jaysen
Got lucky (figuratively not literally). Porter Cable power plane sitting here about to be unboxed. If all goes well there should be some serious progress tomorrow.

Or a trip to the hospital. It's 50/50.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:59 pm
by Jaysen
Well that's a depressingly simple tool. Should be good to make wood chips tomorrow!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:16 am
by Fuzz
Be careful not to turn your mast, both of them, into a toothpick. Those things will remove the wood in a hurry.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:12 am
by Jaysen
My approach will be like a router. Many small passes. This thing has a 1/64" setting which will get the most use.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:43 am
by terrulian
What is 50/50?
....Oh, I just realized you were kidding. You had me going after your recent health problems.

BTW, while you are investing in more power tools, I recently have gone the other direction. I am going acoustic, or vegetarian, or something, because I have sworn off electric gear, sort of. I'm sure I'll backslide a bit. I've just paid for some old planes and other tools that set me back the price of a nice table saw and here's the result from flattening one board:
Image

Working this way is not quite as accurate as a router and table saw, but at least it is way more trouble.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:25 pm
by Jaysen
I prefer hand tools. But time is not the largest commodity for me. So for this... more power!

Here's the sprit post initial shaping. Taper is to spec (ish)
IMG_4158.JPG
Going to shape the mast before I start final smoothing.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:16 pm
by Jaysen
And tony, here's my secret for the taper. Hand cut tenon to create the low point stop for the planer. Look into that idea for how to increase the accuracy of you planing.

This is super sloppy but you get the idea.
IMG_4161.JPG
Tools used: pencil, saw, straight edge, ruler, arm.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:54 pm
by cape man
Tools used: pencil, saw, straight edge, ruler, arm.
Its always the arm that stops working for me.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:28 pm
by Jeff
Nice work Jaysen!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:36 pm
by Jaysen
Here's the pics from today.

Jumping into the sprit mostly shaped. Per plan it's 1.5" at middle down to 1" at the ends. Poet plane made short work of it. The "45" on the corner was a bit off but ...
1203

Next up is the big one... The mast started of as 1x3s. I needed to remove .5" all around. The Porter Cable power plane was eating the mast with no issues.
1204

After getting to the 2"x2" size I hand cut a tenon to 1.5x1.5, the desired final taper size. I did extend the mast 2" to accommodate. This tenon was used to support the static end of the power plane. Starting at the top of the mast and running to the 5' mark (indicated start of taper) remove 1/32". The plane we remove a HUGE amount from top section on the initial cut. Make the first pass about 18". Do the same thing for each cut going 3-4" further every pass. When you get to the 5' mark, set the plane to 1/64 and cut from the mid point toward the top of the mast. Once you have no shoulder left in the tenon set the power plane to the lowest cut and make pass from mid to top until smooth. Rotate mast 90 deg and repeat the entire process. For the record this is how I did the spare as well.
1205

Once you have all 4 sides done, with the power plane still at the lowest setting, make passes from step to top to smooth the taper transition. you really only need 2-3. Here you can see the taper. Nice and smooth starting at the mid point.
1206

Making the mast 8 sided was less fun than the sprit. The sprit can be free handed (at least I could). No matter if you are free handing or using some guide, the first pass on the corner needs to be SMALL. 1/64" at most. For my "guide" all I really did was create a wedge to hold the mast with the corner straight up and then held the plane level. There are lots of ways to do this.

**WARNING** The narrow end of the mast will need MUCH LESS planing than the wide end. You have to pay careful attention to avoid over cursing the top of the mast. I use a "feather" or "lift" of the plane as I approached the end. It's not a safe thing with a power plane. BE CAREFUL.

Here we are with 8 sides.
1208

Want to guess what I did for about 2hr? If you guessed "sanded the crap out of the formerly square mast and sprit" go get yourself a cookie.

There's no magic here. I took a 6" RO with 60gr and set it on "I hate me" speed and started sanding. I used a "cross hatch" motion (think figure 8 ) over 18 inches running diagonal over three faces. After 3 complete cross hatches rotate the spar one face. Think sanding 1-2-3, then 2-3-4, then 3-4-5, etc. Work the same 18" until there are no hard corners. Move 3" up the mast and repeat. This means you are only doing 3 new inches and working 15" you already did. I recommend hard liquor and loud music. Otherwise insanity will find you.

The alternate method for Tony... Use a spoke shave. Keep stone and strop handy. work following grain on a lift. You' want concave not convex. Remove no more than 1/64 thickness. Make one pass from flat to flat removing each hard ridge as you go. Should be round after one full revolution. Would be faster if you didn't have to sharpen after ever 25-30 pulls.

I didn't get a good photo of the smoothed mast and sprit. I did add a round tenon to the the extra 2" on the mast. This will be used to secure lines needed for rigging as well as a block or two. Tenon entirely with hand tools. 1/8" deep kerf, 3/4" chisel to remove the bulk of the material and sand paper to smooth.
1209

And here's the shot of the completed mast.
1210

Did some shaping on the crooked rudder just to have something to use to get on the water fast. Did a bit of touch up on the dagger too. Here is EVERYTHING with a fresh coat of epoxy.
1211

1212

Tomorrow will be sanding, sanding, and a bit more sanding. If all goes well maybe have some graphite on by end of the day. Thinking I'll graphite the whole thing and then paint over that. I still need to drill the mast partner and decide exactly how I'm going to do the mast step. if all goes perfect possible splash next weekend.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:36 am
by Fuzz
I see no reason a man of your talents does not build his own oars also. :D

Pretty snazzy work you are doing there. 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:54 am
by glossieblack
Fuzz wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:36 am Pretty snazzy work you are doing there. 8)
I agree with Fuzz. 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:02 am
by Eric1
Fuzz wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:36 am I see no reason a man of your talents does not build his own oars also. :D
Dang it Fuzz! Never Challenge a Swamp Guinea!! :lol:
Jaysen, You pretty much have to make oars now. :!:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:02 am
by Jaysen
I bought oars already. Mostly because I didn't have a planer and I'm just not into hand planing theses days. That said, I'm already collecting logs. Three ply shafts (oak over cherry) and 7 sections for blade. Won't be ready to start until winter '18. I have some learning to do as well as letting the logs dry.

I think this is the first time I've really missed my shop. Would have been so much easier with all my old toys.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:56 am
by terrulian
Look into that idea for how to increase the accuracy of you planing.
Actually I don't quite follow...but I think I get the jist. Very, very impressive work!

I've been busy a couple of days but wanted to send you this to let know know that there are other insane builders with different but clever approaches:

Image
Image

This is gk108 and you can find this part of his build here:

https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.ph ... &start=110

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:53 am
by Jaysen
My original plan was something like that. But then reality smacked me in the face and pointed out that I'd need a flat and reasonably stable surface. I'd also looked into the section approach but would have needed a table saw and router table. That's when I started to really miss my shop.

The tenon for setting depth for plane: this was shown to me by an old guy up north who made beautiful high end furniture with no power tools or metal fasteners. The tenon creates a support for the planes tail. You start from the tenon working away from it. Once you've removed the shoulder from the tenon you're done. The key is to reduce the cut and lengthen the stroke as you make progress. Try sketching it out and drawing the cuts and it should make sense. If not let me know and I'll grab some scrap and try to show you what I mean.

Glue issue as resurfaced. This time new resin and slow hardener. Here's the thing, I did a split batch with some being used straight and some with silica. Applied 6p yesterday. Straight is hard and sandable. Silica is soft. Does silica require more time to cure?

Which leads me to my detailed plans for today.
Was hoping to sand and graphite things. Can't sand so... switching to mast step and partner.

The plan has a 3" hole in the partner and then mention an insert that is not called out. I'm taking this to mean that I should NOT cut a 3" hole but should match the hole to mast diameter plus some type of bushing material.

My mast step plan is a 2" pvc silp cap. The will be screws to the step block. Anyone see a problem with that?

Thanks

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:06 am
by terrulian
I have to run out to teach a sailing class but I did finally figure out the planing procedure you mentioned. Very clever.
I have never used pure silica so can't really answer. I only add silica when sagging is an issue. Not sure what you're using it for but you don't need silica for a lot of things. Structural stuff I use milled fiber and fairing I use microballoons. Silica is always an additive the way I do things, not the main filler.

You're going great. I'll give the mast partners/step some though but probably can't get back to you today.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:22 pm
by topwater
Straight silica will make an extremely hard and smooth fillet or glue , hard to sand compared to wood flour .
If silica is still soft then epoxy isn't cured or a boxed mix .

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:39 pm
by Jaysen
It's the exact same batch I used to straight coat stuff. And tha straight is hard as a rock. The only time I'm having cute issues is with the silica.

That said I LOVE the stuff. Easy to get into shapes. Smooths to the point of almost not needing sanding if you don't over work it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:04 am
by topwater
Lay down a silica fillet let it firm up ,then coat it with straight epoxy and you are ready for a light sand and primer.
That's how i did all the fillets that show in the pilot house of my boat .

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:39 am
by Jaysen
That's how it will be done on the next boat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:20 pm
by terrulian
It's guys like Topwater and Jacques with their stories of fillets that required "little or no sanding" that had me chewing nails during my build. I never got close to that.

I still think, like others, that the kind of filler you use, unless it is wet mud, should not affect the cure time.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:49 pm
by Jaysen
I tried that straight over mixed trick and it works. I'm too sloppy to say "no sanding" but the fillet itself was smooth.

I agree in the dry time. That's what has me confused. If it wasn't the silica why did the straight set but the silica didn't? The only thing I can think of, and this is "logic" not "evidence" based, is that it isnt extending the cure time then it has to be adding elasticity until COMPLETE cure as opposed to an observed cure. That electricity would account for the balling when sanding as well.

That's what my brain is telling me anyway.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:10 pm
by Fuzz
topwater wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:04 am Lay down a silica fillet let it firm up ,then coat it with straight epoxy and you are ready for a light sand and primer.
That's how i did all the fillets that show in the pilot house of my boat .
I want to watch someone do that! I remember looking at the fillets in your boat and thinking they were perfect.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:24 am
by topwater
Smooth maybe but perfect no .

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:38 pm
by Jaysen
Way too much sanding. Apparently I applied a lot more epoxy/silica than I thought I did. Lots of shaping being redone. Almost drive me to point of saws and fire. Took a set away and worked on a different project. I have all day tomorrow. Will mix sanding and chores to keep myself from throwing in a towel.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:51 pm
by Fuzz
Ok, I give what are you sanding on now :doh: I thought you were working on the mast and stuff.
Just so you know I got a little fishing trip planned for in the morning :D Going to go give it a try out of Seward but it may still be too early....................we will see as the red headed communist would say :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:09 am
by Jaysen
Rudder and dagger are giving me fits now. Haven't even touched the mast and sprit yet.

Going for the giant flounder (how o like to think of halibut)?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:06 am
by glossieblack
Jaysen, please post pics. Yours' is such an interesting build.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:11 pm
by Jaysen
Executive decision made after being laid up yesterday...

One more "rough sand" will get followed by one more coat of straight epoxy. Then she's in the water. Just pissed if with the sanding especially since none of the current parts are "final". I plan to rebuild/replace them all after some time on the water.

So. Rough sand done. Letting things dry after wash. Here's a great perspective shot.
1223

1224

Need to drill hole for mast and finalize mast step. If you notice there are pintles on the rudder already. All that remains are the two things above, letting the final coat cure them lacing the sail.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:33 pm
by Jaysen
And we have last "sailboat" specific modification complete!
1225

Need to go get something suitable for the step, a block for the snotter and some small diameter line. By the time I get back from that should be ready to flip and coat the dagger, rudder, mast and sprit.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:48 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, really nice work!!! I like that color more every time I see Lil Bit!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:55 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks Jeff. Same here. The only complaint about the color is that it really does show dirt and dust a bit more than I expected. Part of that is the 20' finish being a bit rough. It does wipe right off so no big deal. Just seems odd washing the boat before she hits he water.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:18 pm
by Jaysen
Hmmm.

Mast step from pvc cap. It's well attach d and not going anywhere.
1226

And here we go!
1227

The plans call for 3" hole in mast partner. I matched the step to it. But it seems very wrong. I would expect it to be a bit more snug. Here are the closeups of the partner and step with mast fit. They are dead on the plan for centered on measurements.
1230

1229

1228

What do we think?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:01 pm
by terrulian
I'm sorr to say something seems wrong to me, with both the step and the partners. Without some kind of insert, this is going to wobble all over the place. I don't get it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:17 pm
by glossieblack
Jaysen, suggest you glue up two layered plywood donut sleeves with the top layer diameter wider than the openings. Finish them bright, and they'll look the part.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:18 pm
by Jaysen
I tripple checked the plans... 3" in partner. Insert optional. Mast diameter 2" till mid then taper to 1.5". There is a mention of an optional insert. JM did mention that it needed to be loose in a different thread to allow rotation, but this seems...

My thought is wrap the mast with epoxy soaked rope to increase diameter and reduce total space difference to 1/4" (3/4" of rope). Thoughts?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:33 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, I just don't know but that does seem really wrong. I will get Reid or Jamie to thoroughly go over the plans first thing tomorrow and get back to you. I agree this is just way too loose!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:43 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff, pull these if needed...

Here are the relevant plan parts.
IMG_4225.JPG
IMG_4224.JPG
IMG_4223.JPG

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:16 pm
by Jaysen
Sail rigged. I was going to leave it for later but the boss had other ideas. Need to figure out snotter location but that requires mast on boat and water.

I'm planning sailing on Saturday.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:52 pm
by Jaysen
Shower and a beer and I have the following options.

1. Scab on the partner.
Route off 1/8" in an 8x8 square middle of partner. Square out 3" hole. Put in 3x3 squares and top with 8x8 square. Redrill mast hole.

2. Wrap mast.
Use rope or other material to wrap mast adding 3/4" total diameter. Keep impregnated with epoxy to make hard. Use color matching last layer to look like oars.

3. Sleeve the partner and mast.
Find a 3to2 pvc reducer bushing. Shove one in the partner. Above another in step. Insert mast. Go sailing.

I like all of them. 3 get me in the water. 2 will look consistent. 1 is "right" but a lot of work. I don't think there is any structural issue to worry about. Just properly retaining the mast.

As far as the step is concerned, it's just a pvc end cap. I'll just replace it even though I mention other things above.

Thoughts?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:18 pm
by terrulian
Brilliant, and shows a resilient spirit! :D
Look forward to the photos.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:49 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:18 pm Brilliant, and shows a resilient spirit! :D
Cracker Larry wrote:It's only a thing.
Trying to live that.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:57 pm
by Fuzz
You have come so far this little set back is no big deal. I have total faith you will resolve it and have fun sailing soon. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:58 pm
by bateau-webmaster
Definitely looks like too much space. I think glossieblack's suggestion, or the PVC, or maybe wrapping the mast would be the best options. From the plans, the hole in the mast partner looks narrower than the step, and the step looks like it has about the same gap as in your photo. I'll ask Jacques to take a look at the thread here. Maybe he can weigh in when he gets to the next wi-fi spot.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:14 pm
by pee wee
Now that I look at that drawing again, (I tried to do a quote with the image, but it didn't work) it seems to be saying 3" to center of hole from edge of seat, not 3" diameter . . .

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:22 pm
by Jaysen
Now that you point that out...

Hmm... I'm going to start with the bushing idea tonight. The "rebuild" will need to be over the winter.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:28 pm
by Fuzz
Do that, go play, make it right this winter :D
So have you started the paper work goat rope yet?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:36 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, I asked Jamie to send you a PM in response to your question to me earlier today. I hope he was able to help and I know Jamie also sent an email to Jacques!! We have not heard from him (Jacques) in more than 10 days now and he should re-surface soon!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:57 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:28 pm Do that, go play, make it right this winter :D
So have you started the paper work goat rope yet?
no...called to verify photos... have to show fully rigged. That's the plan for tonight. Which will require moving the boat. Just might accidentally move her down the launch ramp. Oops!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:58 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:36 pm Jaysen, I asked Jamie to send you a PM in response to your question to me earlier today. I hope he was able to help and I know Jamie also sent an email to Jacques!! We have not heard from him (Jacques) in more than 10 days now and he should re-surface soon!! Jeff
I think I have the answer I need. Answers which basically say "LEARN TO READ A PLAN YOU MORON!"

Perfectly acceptable answer :)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:53 pm
by Jeff
That is not an answer I would send you!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:57 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:53 pm That is not an answer I would send you!!! Jeff
My wife may have been involved with reading the responses :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:08 pm
by glossieblack
pee wee wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:14 pm Now that I look at that drawing again, (I tried to do a quote with the image, but it didn't work) it seems to be saying 3" to center of hole from edge of seat, not 3" diameter . . .
Once again pee wee demonstrates that he's an astute diagnostician. He also diagnosed why ST21s were prone to droppy bow syndrome, and JM subsequently amended the plans accordingly. Well done pee wee. 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:59 pm
by Jaysen
Well, I needed pee wee and his observation skills at the store...

It appears that 3" pvc ID is actually 3.5". Son. Of. A. Biscuit!!!!

Tomorrow evening is lost to "dance class" (please don't let fuzz think about this, please) but I will have time to get back to the store. Lunch will be contemplation of how to make a pvc tiller because ... why not? I will also rig the boat with bad sizing to get paperwork filed.

Fuzz owes us fish pics.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:09 pm
by terrulian
PVC tiller? Why not? Why not? :roll: :lol:
This can be forgiven if it is a temporary way of getting you on the water. After that, make a laminated one like you see below for your pretty boat. Totally within your ability. Don't dishonor her with a plastic tiller.


Image
Image
Image
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:33 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:09 pm Don't dishonor her with a plastic tiller.
This is a short time solution ONLY.

Still planning the "final" rudder/tiller. I really like the idea of a cassette style lifting rudder. The tiller would be ply core (from my leftovers) with cherry lam. I'm thinking the tiller will be a complete "lift off" (like Ilsa) where the weight of the rudder locks the blade depth. I'm not likely to put a lot of sculpting effort in unless the PVC version convinces me that straight won't cut it for me.

One of the things I need to figure out is how I will pilot the boat. I'm thinking I'll be on the aft floor with a pin on each transom corner for sheet. That keeps me low under the sail, easy access to dagger, access to rudder, lots of room to shift to windward, and a ton of space to "chillax" in the breeze. I'm also thinking that will give me a better COG (fore/aft) than a using the aft seat.

The mid seat just seems to be a bad idea to me. Longer tiller needed, dagger in the way, longer sheet mess, weight a little too far forward for longer trips. Aft seat seems like I'd need a long and a short tiller and that under short trips I'd be dragging tail down. Maybe I'm missing something. Feel free to edumacate me...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:51 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:59 pm Well, I needed pee wee and his observation skills at the store...

It appears that 3" pvc ID is actually 3.5". Son. Of. A. Biscuit!!!!

Tomorrow evening is lost to "dance class" (please don't let fuzz think about this, please) but I will have time to get back to the store. Lunch will be contemplation of how to make a pvc tiller because ... why not? I will also rig the boat with bad sizing to get paperwork filed.

Fuzz owes us fish pics.
I think I would pay good money to see you in a dance class :!: So what size tutu are you wearing now days :doh:
Trust me you will get fish pictures just as soon as mother nature permits. Went to Seward Saturday with that in mind..........got blow off the water :cry: Spent the rest of the day looking over a couple of boats one of fishing partners is looking at buying. I am all for him getting another boat. The best boat ever made is one that belongs to a good buddy :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:10 pm
by Aripeka Angler
PVC tiller? Whatever it takes to get on the water.
I like your upgrade, you deserve it 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:14 pm
by Jaysen
Already did foxtrot
This month is Viennese Waltz.
Pics unlikely until October.
Moved down to a M on my sizes. 30 more to go!

I'm trying to figure out how many redfish trips it will take to equal one giant flounder. I'm guessing about 300 or so. I'm going to have to figure out how to get a couple of bigins into my Lil Bit of a boat to keep up with you. Going to need to talk to JM about bigger blow motor options.

Only problem with "buddy boats" is they come with buddies. I like my boats unattached. Granted attached boats are a LOT cheaper.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:29 pm
by Jaysen
Aripeka Angler wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:10 pm PVC tiller? Whatever it takes to get on the water.
I like your upgrade, you deserve it 8)
Rudder is 1/2". I'm thinking remove a 1/2x7" slot from 1" pvc section 9" long. Slot term 1/2" from aft leaving 2.5" forward. 2.5" section coupler to allow longer section of 1" to extend tiller.

Trying to decide if I need to screw the 9" section to rudder or slot the top too and make it one piece lift on/off. It's all temp but there wrong and stupid wrong. I actually try to avoid stupid wrong (I know that's hard to believe but it's true).

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:32 pm
by terrulian
Someone, maybe Doc Dyer, built port and starboard benches. I think they may have been removable, can't remember, but they sure were nice. When sailing upwind you need to get your weight on the high (weather) side as you mentioned. Not sure how I would handle it with athwartship seats. I bet Jacques has a thought on this.
Also, you like to keep the boat flat, both bow to stern as well as side to side so the middle seat will be best but sitting in the bilge will also work. Again, I'd have to try it to know how well it will work with the designed configuration; but obviously people have done it.
I think the Laser-style port and starboard attachments for the traveler/sheet might work as you mention. There are images online showing this. You could also rig it like this:
Image

This kind of stuff is really great. Setting up the boat is part learning the ballet of moving your body through a tack and jibe on different boats, and part is setting up the lines so they can be easily handled. Running rigging is always a treat to design.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:09 pm
by Jaysen
Remember that I'm traditional sprit. No boom, just a sheet to the clew (crap, is that the right corner?) and a snotter to shape the sail via sprit. I was a bit skeptical of going boomless until I thought about the small size, my fat old self and how much I like not having lumps on my noggin.

The more I stare out the window and imagine a normal load, the more sitting in the bildge makes sense. I can fine tune my position for leveling hull and still be in arms reach of everything. A slight lean at worse. Even the snotter jamb cleat will be easy to get to in a hurry.

As to using the seats, there is plenty of room aft to move side to side. Mid seat forward of frame is only awkward thanks to the dagger. Plenty of room to sit with back on side. Aft of frame... nope-ity-nope-nope. No room.

If the mid and aft seats weren't structural the port/starboard bench idea would be wonderful. I'm too stupid and would push too hard in windier conditions just to see how fast she'd go with my backside keeping her upright in a hurricane. JM may have anticipated my kind of special when he designed her with the current configuration.

Based on all that it seems like aft bildge is my starting point.

Running rigging has my head spinning. The more I think about it the more I keep hearing someone say "you don't have enough experience to know what you need for what you want to do". The obvious mechanicals (tiller, stupid sized holes, etc) aside, I think I need to start "vanilla" and get experience. Once I can sail her vanilla then I look at how to improve it. Learn the basic box Waltz before a moving Waltz before the Viennese.

God I love thinking about this stuff.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:53 am
by cape man
Jaysen,

Sitting on the bottom does improve your center of gravity, and in your case allow you to chill out. However, you may want to consider building a small removable platform, about 1" tall that would fit down inside the space between the middle and aft benches to keep your butt out of the water. Just a small amount of water will soak your pants on a long trip making it uncomfortable. You can add it after the shake out voyages, but I have sat in the bottom of a sailing canoe and can attest to the issue of sitting for hours in just a small amount of water. Couldn't find an exact picture of what I'm thinking, but here's one of a canoe with boards in the center for standing on and the same idea of keeping things above the water.
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:27 am
by Jaysen
I know what you're talking about. Was planning on something similar for two reasons...
1. Flat spot for fishing
2. Water separation

I'm familiar with "wet short syndrome" as the SOT kayaks I've been using are very wet. I was thinking that a simple cushion would suffice for trials but eventually I'll want something a bit more substantial. My plan was some 1/4" ply from BBC as decking in 1.5" strips running port to starboard and 3 support pieces cut to height for middle and 1/4 marks. That would let me stack it all up in a flat stack for storage or if it isn't good underway. It's on my "winter project if I need it" list.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:54 pm
by Jaysen
Sigh. I can't seem to catch a break. Stores closed by the time I got there. Meetings over lunch. No vehicle tomorrow. It's looking more like a rope wrap solution is in my future since I have all that in my hands.

Could be worse. I could hate the look. But I don't.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:56 pm
by Jeff
You are almost there Jaysen!! Just think about having her on the water!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:53 pm
by Jaysen
Not sure I can get all the wraps done for a tomorrow evening sail, but maybe... just maybe the stars will align and nothing will go wrong.

I'm sure mr Murphy just laughed...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:08 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:53 pm I'm sure mr Murphy just laughed...
Nope............he is saving himself for that time when you suddenly find your self inverted :lol: :lol:
Rope, bushing what ever it takes to get you there. At least it will let you get the paperwork started.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:11 pm
by Jaysen
Exactly. Get the paperwork started is key.

If I'm not inverted by 4th sail I'll be disappointed. Either I'm 🐓💩 and not pushing my skill or I'm under powered. I fully expect to find myself swinging. Regularly.

So there!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:12 pm
by Jaysen
I'll let the pics say it ...

1244

1245

1246

1247

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:21 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, Lil Bit looks ready to sail!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:30 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:21 pm Jaysen, Lil Bit looks ready to sail!!!! Jeff
Almost.

But she's beautiful. More beautiful than I would have imagined. The neighbors agree. Everyone is hopeful for a sail tomorrow afternoon. I've already taken Friday off.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:34 pm
by Aripeka Angler
I saw what the pics said, looks great 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:55 pm
by terrulian
Can't believe how quickly you're moving. Looks great.
Do you have a decision on the main sheet rigging?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:05 pm
by Jaysen
Mast wrap success. No pics tonight. Will take tomorrow.

Tony, having difficulty with the snotter. Plan was a block attached to mast via short line with clove. I've got the location damn near perfect but can't get the line to bite the mast enough to prevent slippage which reduced the tension on the snotter. Short of putting a cleat on the mast what recommendations do you have for securing that line?

I'm also struggling to keep adequate downhaul on the tack. I'm contemplating a similar setup (block on line clove to mast) but the tension there will be MUCH greater than the sprit. Everything I'm finding in my searches is loops on aluminum masts which isn't helpful. Open to any suggestions.

Thanks.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:09 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:55 pm Can't believe how quickly you're moving. Looks great.
Do you have a decision on the main sheet rigging?
Cross posted!

For now main sheet will be hand held line. I'm going to keep a$$ mounted on aft seat until I'm confident in snotter and downhaul. As you can see in the photos, the pintle has a slightly long line so the sheet should be forward of the transom per JM direction for sheet angle. I'm thinking that pins at aft frame may be perfect for a quick loop hold on the main.

Hope that makes sense.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:26 pm
by terrulian
On the tack downhaul or snotter: You're opposed to a cleat or padeye?
If you want a knot that will hold just by friction you could use a
Prussic knot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prusik
Rolling hitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_hitch
Camel hitch (here is one version): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFzxIbNzpKg

If you use either a cleat, padeye, or tie one of these knots around the mast, pass it through the cringle at the tack and then back to the cleat or padeye...or, in the case of a knot, another knot. That gives you a mechanical advantage of 2/1 which should be sufficient. The knots of course may slide after awhile but these are pretty good and the best I can give you; but I'm not quite sure I'm understanding the problem. I'd be fine with padeyes and blocks.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:58 am
by Jaysen
Thanks Tony. My reluctance to screw things to the mast is more about "is this really where I want the hole FOREVER?" than anything else. It's awful soon to be making decisions. Heck, it's easier to get "unmarried" than for me to fix a hole in the mast. :)

Jeff, SC paper work is a problem. I need "make and model" for a home built. How do you want to be known in the official SC paperwork?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:01 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, which ever is best for you and easiest with the State for registration!! The designer of the boat is: Mertens-Goossens Yacht Design (MGYD) - this is the name of the company that Jacques uses for all of his plans/designs. But again, I am happy to be what best facilitates your registration!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:15 am
by Jaysen
I think I need the MGYD tag. The directions are less than clear. I'm calling the model V12. Do you want me to use actual measurement or design measurement for length and depth (transom to keel)? My guess is this is going into the state DB for "comparison"

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:32 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, I suggest you call it: MGYD Design V-Bottom Dingy 12 and then add the exact measurement in the description on the application. Let me know if you need anything from us to add to your application. Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:38 am
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:32 am Jaysen, I suggest you call it: MGYD Design V-Bottom Dingy 12 and then add the exact measurement in the description on the application. Let me know if you need anything from us to add to your application. Jeff
Apparently the state REALLY doesn't want folks building boats here. Basically there isn't an option on the title form to register a home build. I'm calling them shortly.

Based on the form field size and such, I'm going with
• Make -- MGYD
• Model -- V12

I'll let everyone know how it goes "post call".

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:44 am
by Jeff
Best of luck Jaysen!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:20 am
by Jaysen
I'll post this in the how to register section...

1. Sail/row only... $10 fee
2. #1 + under 12' no bow numbers needed $0
3. Hull ID issuance required min 7 photos; close up bow port, bow starbord, transom, full boat port/starboard/front/back (the ones I posted last night)
4. All forms on line (HID app, watercraft/motor title and registration (both in one form)
5. Complete both forms and mail with include needed fees ($10 for me, $40 for you big boy boat builders)
6. make copies of the form you sent and get out on the water since the form is your temp tags!

Some one is getting salt water on a rudder tonight!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:23 am
by BB Sig
Nice! We are looking forward to seeing the boat wet.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:19 am
by Jeff
Good news Jaysen!! So we should see a little wind in Lil Bits sail later today??? Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:37 am
by Jaysen
If the winds die down a bit. Or not. I'm pretty stupid so I'd probable go out for the fist sail with 20kn blows.

You can see the current conditions (less tide and water temp) via my weather station on the neighbors dock (aka my launch point). Here's the URL... https://www.wunderground.com/personal-w ... tory/mweek

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:12 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:26 pm If you use either a cleat, padeye, or tie one of these knots around the mast, pass it through the cringle at the tack and then back to the cleat or padeye...or, in the case of a knot, another knot. That gives you a mechanical advantage of 2/1 which should be sufficient.
Tony, I was thinking about this... Wouldn't using the cringle for the snotter change the shape of the sail by creating a tight spot mid way on the luff? Would I be better using a figure 8 in the lace line to support the snotter block distributing the tension along the entire luff? I know I'm over thinking it, but ... SAILBOAT!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:58 pm
by terrulian
The cringle I was mentioning was for the tack, not the snotter, although I probably didn't make that clear.
Not sure how this boat is rigged, actually. I think my plans for the V10 may show Jacques' recommendations but I don't know where they are at the moment.
No, you're not overthinking it. If you don't quite know how things are going to work, then it is not a bad plan to rig everything with knots, using the ones I described, and then see how stuff works. You'll have a better idea of what the strings do and where you want all the controls after you've taken her for a spin.
Does Jacques call for tensioning the luff by hauling down on the tack (with a cringle in the sail) or hauling down on the boom at the gooseneck?

I'd kind of have to see a photo or drawing to know what we're talking about, but here is a link that shows what I'm imagining:
http://www.melonseed.com/images/melonse ... 3991530945
You have three ways, in this setup, to flatten the sail: downhaul, gooseneck (#4), and snotter (#2). Tightening the downhaul flattens the luff, tightening the gooseneck flattens the foot, and tightening the snotter tensions the peak which flattens the leech and head. The way the boat is rigged in the illustration does not allow for much convenient trimming underway but this could be rigged, which would be fun but a bit more complicated to set up when stepping the mast.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:50 pm
by Jaysen
Tony, here's the exact rig I'm using... http://bateau2.com/howto/sprit_rig.php

I get the function of the lines and the theory of operation. It's the practical application of there and placement that I've learned, thanks to this forum, needs less "the math says it is here" and more "the says to start here but I need to be ready to move things for best performance".

Here's the basic as I've "math'd and setup" for now.
• Throat of sail is held to mast peak via a figure eight stopper in lacing and bowline over the mast peak. This allows a one piece lacing from peak to downhaul.
• Lacing is spiral with overhand loop above tack. Down haul on lacing pulls loop into cringle tensioning luff while loop allows for temp attachment point.
• Down haul is secured with rolling clove directly to mast for now.
• Peak loop fits over tapered sprit end very tight but secure
• Snotter line is secured to sprit with rolling clove fed through block and secured with quick release hitch to overhand loop above tack.
• Snotter block is secured to mast with rolling clove at 40% sail. This is the one failing, but I think securing the block to the lacing will fix it since the lacing line is much rougher than the mast finish. At this location, sprit provides max tension with 3" of snotter line remaining, the snotter angle closely inline with the sprit when tensioned and allowing the sprit to rotate around mast with no binding.
• Main sheet is a line fixed to clew with bowline.

That's it. Really simple. I love it. Seems perfect for my planned use and simple sailing needs for now.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:16 pm
by terrulian
OK, that all looks simple enough...so...
I can't remember what the original question was. :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:05 pm
by Jaysen
How to keep that damnable snotter block stuck where I want it without drilling a hole in the mast...

I'm thinking rolling clove on the lacing line instead of directly on the mast.

Also thinking that the down haul will need full cleating sooner than later as that should not take much thinking at this point... Sail isn't going to magically grow a longer luff.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:27 pm
by terrulian
Did you try any of those knots? Rolling hitch, camel hitch, and prussic knot will all resist sliding better than a clove hitch.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:26 pm
by Jaysen
RollIn hitch will be in use extensively in about 30min.

Some idiot forgot to fashion a temp tiller. Problem solved.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:00 pm
by pee wee
Hope you have a little bit of fun!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:01 pm
by Jaysen
Well... let's just say the damage is superficial.

Too much wind. Shouldn't have gone out. Managed to get mast reduced enough to not get broken up under docks. Did leave a bit of paint on a piling or three. Wound up over the side. Good thing it was low tide so o was able to walk her back.

Video once I get some dinner and after sail is dry and stowed.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:18 pm
by terrulian
Yikes! 8O

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:39 pm
by Jaysen
I'm ready to go back out.

Need to look the boat over and make sure the hit was as superficial as it seemed. Also need a better mast fix plan

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:53 pm
by Jaysen
Not w that I'm sitting I. The restaurant Mrs says "did you check the wind before you left?" "It was blowI got and she's a sailboat..." When I woke up from the smack I checked the weather stations. Winds were 23mph sustained and 27mph gusts. I had no business being the ur there with Lil Bit.

I told y'all I was stupid enough to go out in those conditions. I didn't expect to prove it day one.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:06 pm
by Jeff
Jaysen, don't rush Lil Bit, take your time and choose the right conditions!!! This is for fun not work!! And please be safe!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:18 pm
by Jaysen
I'd be out here thinking that now if the boss didn't call it. It WAS fun. Paying for it now. This wasn't a lil bit fail. It's all on me.

That said, I still love everything about this boat. I could feel the "give" when I got into the piling (was between frames) but there was no evidence of cracks in the paint. Just gouges from the shells. Even when she dumped me over the side she stayed dry inside. I'm really looking forward to the day when a 25mph breeze is just another day with her on the water.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:28 pm
by Jeff
Tough day on Lil Bit but still sounds like you really enjoyed it!! Glad you did!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:40 pm
by Jaysen
I learned a lot. I have a better admiration for the design based on how she handled my stupid. I know what I need to improve technically for these types of situations (I WILL do this to myself again) md what I need to improve mentally/skills to avoid what level of stupid in the future.

juat like "puking my toe nails" (as Fuzz called it) this is just another step for me. Love every aspect of this trip so far.

Where that fresh beer? I can feel my bruises again! BEER ME!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:45 pm
by Fuzz
OH PLEASE tell me there is video evidence of all this :P

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:07 pm
by Jaysen
The. Entire. Thing.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:11 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:07 pm The. Entire. Thing.
:D :D :D Make my day

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:03 pm
by terrulian
I'm really looking forward to the day when a 25mph breeze is just another day with her on the water.
OK, maybe so, but I'm definitely past hoping for 25 knot days, although we get them all the time here and I can handle them. But 25 is a whole lot for that little boat with no reef. Shoot for 10-12 for now. Even high teens would be pushing it.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:36 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:03 pm
I'm really looking forward to the day when a 25mph breeze is just another day with her on the water.
OK, maybe so, but I'm definitely past hoping for 25 knot days, although we get them all the time here and I can handle them. But 25 is a whole lot for that little boat with no reef. Shoot for 10-12 for now. Even high teens would be pushing it.
Tony, I know I'm crazy. And my impatience to get "on the water" was the ENTIRE problem today. I actually told the Boss "it's aweful windy... maybe I should... GO SAILING!" I knew these were bad conditions. But I really want to give it a go!

I am uploading the FULL video. Nothing cut. I did add some titles for notes. It will take a bit to upload. I will post the link once it is done.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:26 am
by glossieblack
Jaysen, I love the way you're learning to sail fast. By just doing it, making mistakes, and honestly reflecting to learn. 8)

Walk into the bar of any yacht club, and there they are. The self proclaimed sailors, and occasionally, the real deal. Ask about skin lost and lessons learnt along the way. That sorts them. The bullshit artists repeat. The real deal speak in almost hushed terms about the majestic oceans, the scrapes they've survived, the lessons learnt.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:12 am
by Jaysen
GB, thanks for the keep me words. To be honest, I'd rather fail knowing that I honestly put it all out there with my best effort than look back and know I only gave it half my effort. I just need to learn when common sense should override ambition!

Here it is. My shame in all its glory. I hope Fuzz enjoys snorting coffee out his nose.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/1CoZJHEMo8w[/youtube]

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:21 am
by glossieblack
Gee, from the pre movie publicity, I thought something bad had happened. :roll: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:41 am
by Jaysen
The Mrs isn't the best cinematographer... starboard rubrail got the worst of it. Mast got wedged between two pilings and a dock joist. All happened in seconds. No damage to sail thank god.

When I got dumped, it was on the flounder rip which is our homage to you GB... covered in live oysters (and now a bit of my flesh). No signs of infection yet so probably all clear.

I did discover that not oarlock and oar combination is not nice. Very limited vertical motion which contributed to the rapid loss of control. Also realized that may "two lumps" mast wrap was stupid. Could not get lower section of mast out of partner (that's what happened under the dock).

Like I said in previous post, it was mostly my pride that was crushed.

Winds are looking at the upper limits right now. Going to do a few small "quick hits" then load her up and set her by the launch. I'm either thick headed and stubborn or I'm determined to sail this boat!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:59 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, the movie is not nearly as bad as I imagined!! Sail on!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:28 am
by terrulian
Yes, no big deal but very entertaining video and commentary, both written and narrated.
Too much wind, aggravated by the extra windage of the mast when trying to row upwind.
But what I want is a more detailed description and photos of the cart, and also of how you get the boat back on the cart. Looks promising.
Good work. Pretty exciting no matter the conditions to have your boat in the water!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:58 am
by Jaysen
I'll get you a photo of the cart in a bit.

Getting from boat in water to boat on cart...

Secure boat in water (beach)
Put cart in water
Move boat to deeper water behind cart
Float boat into cart (requires a bit of lifting)
Run ratchet strap under boat over cart bunks
Pull it all up the ramp.

I use it just like a trailer. There are a few issues I need to resolve. The design isn't complete yet but I may just leave it "as is" since it gets the job done.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:18 am
by terrulian
Yes, I get that. I wasn't clear. How do you get the boat on the cart when the boat is NOT in the water?
I'd need to do that to get the boat out of my van onto the cart.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:35 am
by pee wee
While it can't be argued that everything went smoothly, I bet you learned more in 5 minutes in those conditions than you would have in an hour with ideal conditions.

Your first adventure, thanks for documenting it for us all. Lil Bit looks like she wants to take care of you.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:44 am
by Jaysen
Yeah peewee, the most educational 5min for me in a LONG time.

Tony, the bunks are removable. I take one side off, lift keel over wheel and position hull as needed on remaining bunk. Then I lift the side with no bunk (only needs one hand thanks to physics) and reinstall removed bunk. All that needs done after that is truing up the axle position with slight upwardly lift on one rubrail and rolling wheel until axle is just forward of oarlock socket. Repeat on other side, center hull between bunk posts, adjust bunks under hull, strap around axle with ratchet up for easy access. Lift bow and walk. The large wheels make it easy to move over smooth surfaces and not too bad over roots. Use of ball bearing hubs would make rough surfaces easier but it's good enough for now.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:53 am
by terrulian
Jaysen, sounds brilliant, no kidding.
Any chance of getting your very understanding wife to shoot a video of this process? Also interested in design, parts, and construction. I am not aware of any similar approach to this so I think you have a future in product development. A patent. Billions in revenue! Think about it!
I have a general idea how the boat works; but this stuff would be really helpful and interesting. :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:21 am
by Jaysen
Really, this is was just an idea I stole from several other designs. There are a few issues I'm trying to solve around the axle/wheel. I'm not sure I could legally patent it as the fixes I have in mind look exactly like a commercial unit I just found (granted that unit is $600 and I'm only up to $60 EVEN if you count the things I've bought 3x already).

This is the unit as it sits. The bunks come off and the wheels unscrew at the hub to reduce storage space need. I intend to make a "cross member" to help with bunk alignment but that complicates loading. As she sits she'll move my little piggy with more than adequate ease. Remember that the bunks will serve as equipment mounts should I even figure out how to sail the boat.
1271

1272

The "hub" is really just a 3.5"x1/2" stainless bolt (1" threaded) center mounted on a 2" pvc thread on cap. The crossmember side is the male threaded side. This allows me to remove the wheels easily for paint and storage. The "replacement lawn mower wheel" from Lowes, rotates on the smooth surface of the bolt. While the wheel has an internal bushing, it generates a LOT of heat with Lil Bit's weight. Grease washed out on first use but seemed to help. Because of the friction I have to retighten the nut after every trip. I do have 1.5" finder washers on either side of the cap and a nylon lock nut in the cap. Washer on the outside just to help things spin.
1273

1274

It's really simple. The most expensive parts are the wheels. I think I paid $15 for them at Lowes. That's half the cost of the whole thing (including the nonexistent cross member parts). When the Mrs is back from work I'll see if we can't get a video of the dry loading. That or I'll hit it with the tripod thing if I take her out to the water later :)

Here's the part that created my mess. That busing on the end of the mast jammed when I tried to pull the mast on the water. I knew it was a risk but underestimated the pressure the wind would place on the mast in a "oh fork!" situation. I have since removed that and located the bushing IN the step as a floating (unattached) component. This allows the ID to be slightly larger than the mast which should knock it off as I pull the mast though the partner. We may find out if it works in a little bit...
1270

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:40 am
by Jaysen
FOUND IT!

When studying vatients of rolling hitch I ran across this..
IMG_4266.JPG
I can not get it to slip. I'm going to see how it does on the water.

Loading up to move everything to launch. Close inspection shows nothing but paint damage to rubrail and a scratch or two in the yellow. Got off easy this time.

Winds under 5mph and tide looks right. Will use the tripod for video.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:03 am
by terrulian
Thanks, Jaysen!!
Very good description. Look forward to the dry launch footage. I paid a lot more for my cart and it works very well but is steel and will completely rot if I try to submerge it for launching. Brilliant engineering, of just the kind that I admire. :D I admit that I never even considered the possibility of making my own. :roll:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:28 am
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:12 am Here it is. My shame in all its glory. I hope Fuzz enjoys snorting coffee out his nose.
In addition to your other many and varied skills you are also clairvoyant :!:
I was indeed drinking my morning coffee when I saw this. I am now brewing another cup and wiping coffee off my desk for some reason. :lol:
Thanks for posting the video I am sure it got lots of love. Nothing wrong with being hard headed. No one is born knowing you have learn by doing. Takes a special person to be willing to show their failures and not just their successes.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:32 am
by glossieblack
Well said Fuzz.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:02 pm
by Jaysen
Well... I have more to report on Lil Bit, sailing, and bone head moves. Let me leave you with this as the "disappointing ending" of my day.
IMG_4268.JPG

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:02 pm
by terrulian
The oarlocks look OK from here. What was the problem again?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:43 pm
by Fuzz
Am I seeing a crack running fore and aft in the midship seat :doh:

At least I see sort of a smile and no tears :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:49 pm
by Jeff
Fuzz, I just saw it as well and hope not!! Maybe just a cord of some sort!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:55 pm
by Jaysen
I'm staring at that thinking "even Fuzz has to understand the dagger trunk opening ... what's he smoking?" But when Jeff commented I took a second look and was thinking "Fuzz sent Jeff some salmon... maybe it's the fish?"

Then it dawned on me that the blue main sheet the I used to secure the mast/sprit/sail was the "crack in question". And what do you know? On my laptop it looks exactly like a crack. But it IS just the main sheet.

Working on a bit more descriptive account of my latest stupid. I'm laughing about it so hard it's difficult to type. I will so many stories to tell my grandkids should my children ever be dumb enough to procreate.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:00 pm
by Fuzz
This is probably going to be a good story but at least the boat does not look to be broken. I was thinking if you broke Lil Bit even before taking SWMBO out in it you might as well go ahead and book your ticket up here :lol: :lol: :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:09 pm
by terrulian
You can't break these boats anywhere near that easy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:21 pm
by Jaysen
Boat is not nearly as broken as I am. I'm on beer three and can STILL feel the back. Breaking out the rum... it's 5 o'clock somewhere!

Bright and early I'm out rigging up the sail, checking everything for damage, fixing my dumb a$$ lower bushing, and asking the neighbors for "water state reports" (easy to do since they all stop by to remind me that it takes a special type of stupid to be me). Checking the numbers I see
• Winds 2-5kn WSW (beam on the channel)
• Waves < 1 foot
• Frequency 5sec+
• Tide in bound (not going to drift out to sea.

I get Lil Bit all loaded on the trailer. Wrap the sail get the safety gear, rudder, dagger, PVC tiller, water, sunscreen, and camera. All loaded up I realize that I didn't tighten the wheel nuts... Off it goes, hubs removed, nuts tightened, wheels reinstalled, take pictures for Tony, boat back on cart and everything loaded. I get down to the launch only to realize "idiot forgot the mast". Back to the house, pick up mast, back to the boat. Setting up the camera I realized it would be tough to get video but I got it all set up so I could start the video from the boat. I actually managed to get her in the water with ZERO problems.

After pulling her up on the concrete near the camera, I stepped the mast, set up the oars and got her ready to go. Started the camera, shoved off and rowed out to the wind would not drift me into a dock. As I shipped the oars I started to raise the sprit only to find the sail was wrapped on it funny. Watching the video after 6min of nothing this little yellow boat drifts by with some idiot failing his arms with two lines in his hands. Oh... did I mention that I somehow convinced myself that I should hand line the sprit? The dance was something like
dumb a$$ in Lil Bit wrote: You put or left arm in
You pull the left arm out
You put the left arm in and you shake it all about!
You swear about the wind
You scream about the dock
That's what learning to sail is all about!

You put your right arm in
...
By the time I realized "I'm screwed" I was about 1/2mi up river (with the tide) asking "how the helling did I get here?" The wind should have been blowing me back to shore. This was not right...Know what I didn't check? The CURRENT SPEED!!! near as I could dead recon it, I was making 5kn JUST ON THE TIDE! Lucky for me I remember there was a sand spot I could ditch on to fix the sail. Only problem... long dock. The Long Dock. As in "oh sh!t, there's only 5' clearance and I need to go up wind to get around that thing, the sail is up but not right, and I can't just row!" So I slid forward and FINALLY did something smart... I tied the snotter to the mast partner freeing BOTH hand to ... I don't know... sail!

Oddly, once you have the right number of hands to cover the number of things you need hands for YOU CAN ACTUALLY SAIL A BOAT! Oh... My.. God!!! That hull can get up and go when you actually sail properly and stop dicking around like an idiot. She popped around that dock with about 15 feet to spare. As I rounded the other side I realized I was already well past the target spot. I fought for a bit and managed to hit the sand I was aiming for only to be met by a group of people who had been watching me. 10 minutes later (explaining how stitch and glue worked, tell them all about BBC, pointing them to the forum for build details, and getting a list of folks that wanted rides once I figure out the sailing) I had the sail rigged perfect and was ready to head out.

Now it suddenly dawned on me, "hey dip-shit, you need sunscreen and a drink". As I'm looking in the boat I realize I never picked up the supply bag! And now you understand why I plan to pack 2 of EVERY safety device. Being the optimist that I am I smiled at everyone, shoved off and jumped back into my Lil Bit of a boat. When I looked up I was 100' up river and going damn fast toward a submerged rock wharf. With my now properly rigged sprit sail, I hauled that main sheet, adjusted the rudder and headed into the first leg of my tack.

Holy sweet mother of Jesus that was a thrill I wish I had on tape. I swear to all that is holy the Marines on Paris Island heard me laughing and hollering as that sail filled up, the boat heeled over, and I started to gain ground on the end of the dock. Sailing a little boat like this is SO MUCH different than a 40' ketch. Every gust, every wave, it's like being in a MG Midget when you are used to big van. I can't imagine what an actual "fast boat" would be like. I don't think I could survive the adrenaline rush.

At some point I looked around and asked "why isn't the dock behind me?" Looking over the transom I could see I was still flying, but looking at the land... I was going BACKWARD. As in going like a bat out of hell in water speed, but going negative land speed. Being a slightly less stupid person than normal since I was clearly losing ground and that wharf was still a problem, I looked and realized that out in the channel the current speed was WAY higher than in the shallow, I pulled a quick adjustment to port and got up to the side of the dock.

Time to execute my fist every sailing dinghy tack, I pushed the mini tiller hard to port while sliding my bulk to port. Go back two paragraphs and read that. Same deal. Let's just say that you need to read that paragraph EVERY TIME I mention tack or jibe. EVERY. TIME. Anyway... If you are counting tacks and thinking about things, you'd realize that I'm now on a close hauled port tack sailing WITH the current. In about 5 minute I'm at the end of the dock, but a couple hundred feet in the wrong direction. That wharf isn't more than 70' from eating my baby for lunch!

STARBOARD TACK TIME (insert excitement paragraph here)! sitting comfy and dry, wind in my face, I'm admiring the wonderfulness that is the v12. At some point I stopped staring at the inside of the hull and looked around me. WTF!!!???? I'm only 60' from the wharf! While on the port tack I intentionally made distance away from shore. Guess where that put me? If you guessed "in the channel you dip-shit" you get a gold star. The same adjustment to port and I was right back where I started the previous tack.

I've been called hard headed and stubborn more than once. In my own build thread. I did this same exercise 3 more time. Know what changed? Only the time on my watch. And the amount of red in my pale white skin. On what turned out to be my last tack (port) one of the oars popped loose and tried to amputate my foot by smacking me in the ankle with the blade. My language made a few Marines blush. On the plus side the solution to my problem was suddenly made PAINFULLY clear.

For the first time I took a line of sail that let me run with the wind and a following sea (insert excitement paragraph x3). I managed to not lose ground toward the wharf and as I approached the beach I pulled the dagger and rudder, jumped over the side and struck the sprit. Rotating the mast in the step and partner I quickly wrapped the sail. Unstepping the mast was a breeze without the busing lump on the end of it. Using the main Sheet I lashed the sprit, mast and sail then stowed it as securely as possible. It was then I remember "some jack-ass didn't fix the oars".

Tony, the problem with the oarlocks is that the plastic sleeves are too large for both the oarlock and the oar. What this does is limit the vertical motion of the oar AND allow the oar to slide in and out. I had wrapped the oars with twine, and while that worked to address the sliding oar, it didn't help the vertical. Looking at my situation, I unwrapped a few turns of the lashing and then used a couple of half hitches to secure the oar to the oarlock. The positioned the oars where I needed them AND allowed full motion in rowing. WIN!

With my reconfigure V12 ready to row, I shoved off. As I gained enough ground to hop on board and not get blown back to shore or drift into the wharf confidently took a big leap only to find... my boat was missing. Not really because she hit me in the head as I picked myself up from the bottom. Laughing at myself as much as everyone else was laughing at me, I looked around and realized that the wind had picked up. So had the wave. I was now sitting in 1-2' waves on a 3 sec frequency with a 7-10kn wind. When I went to get into Lil Bit, based on what I was told, a larger wave lifted her and may foot never made it over the rail. I actually kicker her away from me! A good laugh over I got in and start to row.

I don't like rowing. Not really. It's awkward and ... well... it's work. That's why God gave us sails, right? Well, God also gave us JM who gave us the V series hulls. "Multi purpose hull for efficient rowing" is one of the lines on my plans. Efficient is right. In less time than it took me to stow the mast I was under that dock. Another 15 minutes and I was making my turn into the launch area. Lil Bit laughed at the wind and the current and took me back home with nothing more than a little sweat on my part.

Once back at the launch I had a new problem. Where the heck was the cart? This was only supposed to be a 15min jaunt. So I had flipped the cart on the ramp to have it handy when I got back. Remember that incoming tide? Recall that we have 9' tides here? Holding Lil Bit with one hand I had to go fishing for the cart with the other. A few minutes of that and Lil Bit was strapped on and back on dry land. You've already seen how "upset" I was with the day from the last photo.

Taken as a whole, I could not have hoped for a better first sail. I'm calling Lil Bit splashed even though there are a few things I'm going to work on. Tiller/rudder/dagger replacement, need some graphics for her name and a few other things, need to address the mast and oar wraps, need to figure out why there is paint peeling off the mid seat and if I need to fix it. Even with that list, when asked, I's say "as she sits... she's damn near perfect."

I love this Lil Bit of a boat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:58 pm
by terrulian
A great story! Thanks for taking the time to recount it. All in all, nobody got hurt, you got back to the launch site, no blood on the decks--right?

I've never been a fan of rowing either but I think you got an inkling of how sweet this hull is to row--and the V12 should row even better than my V10. It makes a lot of difference to have the oar/oarlock setup right, though, and because it isn't quite right yet you're not able to get into a nice smooth rhythm, I'm guessing. All minor adjustments, though.

Great stuff, and I look forward to some visual documentation. You're giving me ideas about going ahead with the conversion to sail...hmmm :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:26 pm
by BB Sig
Thanks for the laugh and story. My wife gave me a funny look as she was driving and asking what's so funny. Your adventures after building the boat are just as good as the build.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:48 pm
by Fuzz
Dang it man...............I need to be sitting on the beach with a cold one when you decide to go for a sail.
Sounds like you and Lil Bit are having a grand old time together. :D You do tell a good story. Put you, Tony, Craig and the Cracker together with a little rum and the stories would have been film worthy.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:24 pm
by Jaysen
There are a few ways to become a good story teller.

1. Read a LOT of books. You learn how to use imagination and you expericane many different way to express ideas.
2. Listen to a lot of stories. Oral traditions are as old language. The best stories become the legends of family and tomorrow. Every family has a story teller. Find as many as you can and listen to them all.
3. Live life. Experience things. Share your experiences. Sit and talk. Laugh. Argue. Cry. Connecting with people is natural when you're living life. Stories are how we connect and tell people who we are. The more you share the better you become.

i have a feeling that anyone crazy enough to build a boat would be a good story teller.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:31 am
by Jaysen
Is 6:30am too early for medicinal rum? I LARGE quantities?

I've discovered new muscle groups. And found a few more impact points (aka bruises). My little sail adventure has certainly made it clear that my soft self needs to be less soft. Luckily the fix for that problem... more sailing!

Today is going to be a light day. I have a deadline for some writing that will keep me near the house. Maybe some rowing later today. That or just some general boat work.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:15 am
by BB Sig
Jaysen wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:24 pm There are a few ways to become a good story teller.

1. Read a LOT of books. You learn how to use imagination and you expericane many different way to express ideas.
2. Listen to a lot of stories. Oral traditions are as old language. The best stories become the legends of family and tomorrow. Every family has a story teller. Find as many as you can and listen to them all.
3. Live life. Experience things. Share your experiences. Sit and talk. Laugh. Argue. Cry. Connecting with people is natural when you're living life. Stories are how we connect and tell people who we are. The more you share the better you become.

i have a feeling that anyone crazy enough to build a boat would be a good story teller.
All good points that this next generation is missing out on.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:58 pm
by Jaysen
Well... today is a loss. Writing done but now the body is done. Ankle is the worst of it. Seems to be clearing up. The rest is just bumps and bruises.

Based on yesterday I need to figure out the following before working in anything else.
1. Stowage for "not in use gear"
1a. Oars
1b. Mast/sprit/sail/dagger/rudder
1c. Lines and fenders.
2. Cleats and eyes. Lots of them.
2a. All mast lines.
2b. For docking
2c. For anchor (hold in place and "oh shoot")
2d. For recovery tow.
3. Safety/supply bag for sunscreen, water, documents.

I think everything else should be behind these.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:52 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Jaysen, I have to tell you that this has been a fun build to follow :D
I know next to nothing about sailboats, but it has been enjoyable nonetheless.
I've also been in and or observed plenty of interesting situations like the one you had with the dock.
I always say, it could have been a lot worse.
You know what Cracker would have said?
"At least nobody got hurt and the boat didn't break!".
I heard him say the above statement at least 3 dozen times.
He considered getting hurt to mean an injury requiring medical attention or hospitalization. :lol:
Sail on, looking good from here...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:02 pm
by Jaysen
Aripeka Angler wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:52 pm You know what Cracker would have said?
"At least nobody got hurt and the boat didn't break!".
I heard him say the above statement at least 3 dozen times.
He considered getting hurt to mean an injury requiring medical attention or hospitalization. :lol:
I believe those were the same words I said once the camera was off. As long as the doctor doesn't get paid it's a win!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:53 am
by gonandkarl
Hi Jaysen,
Congratulation on the launch of your beautiful boat. I loved reading the story around it and when I saw that you were pushed by wind and waves into the dock I knew exactly how you felt because this nearly happened to me using my FS13 the other day. With one big difference I was on a practically calm lake with little waves and only had to exert myself using the paddle a bit quicker. This should also be the consoler for you that you battled on the edge of an ocean and in not really perfect weather. The nice thing about it is that one learns in a few minutes a lot which one will change the next time. Do not forget your better half to take along again as an expert film maker ( in my opinion ) when you try the next sail and be patient to wait for the ideal weather situation. I think lots of us boat builders, sailors or future sailors ( I am one of those ) of the Bateau forum are looking forward to see your next video in fair winds.
Greetings from Karl

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:23 am
by Jaysen
Thanks Karl. I'm very excited for your launch as well.

Mrs will be filming the next time she's home and the weather/tides align. I really wanted to get the first sail on tape but I knew I had a limited window.

Keep us posted on your AD build.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:14 pm
by Jaysen
Got tied up with house stuff.

Snotter formally fixed to mast. The position of the eye with that amount of line fixing it has the snotter angle dead on.
1280

Second thing was putting a peg at the business end of the sprit. It's a 1/4x4" lag with a 1/2x1" nylon bushing. This allows me to free the sail by just twisting the sprit. That was part of the problem on the water the other day.
1281

I didn't get a pic fully rigged. Going to work on oars tonight. Might get a run to HW store for a few cleats.

Anyone have suggestions on where to put cleats for dock lines? Can't find a spot or three that seems safe.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:52 pm
by terrulian
I have one on the bow, and then I have holes at the top of the middle frames and through the transom knees. This avoids any protrusions at deck level except the bow to ding your oars or snag your running rigging. You have to have some way to attach a line at the bow and, at at the stern port and starboard. I've also become very used to having a midship attachment point, whether on this boat or a forty footer.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:04 pm
by Jaysen
Holes I the frames! I hadn't thought of that!

It was the snagging of running rigging that I couldn't get around. A few holes lined with graphite seem like the perfect answer.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:30 pm
by terrulian
Works for me. Nothing is as good as a cleat; however this is also true when the cleat is doing something you don't want it to do, like catching your sheet on a jibe.
Image

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:54 pm
by Fuzz
Dang Tony I almost forgot how pretty your V-10 is.
We all appreciate you keeping an eye on Jaysen. Lord knows he needs it :lol: I do not even know what half that stuff you guys are talking about is :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:04 pm
by terrulian
Jaysen doesn't really need my help but I butt in every once in awhile just to keep my hand in.
Since long before I built my own boat I lurked on this list and was amused by the skill and cleverness of all the forum members.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:10 pm
by Fuzz
Well just the same I am sure he is grateful. I am learning something new myself...........all this time I thought a snotter was one of my sisters grand kids............guess not :doh:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:13 pm
by Jeff
Terrulian, agree with Fuzz, have not seen you V10 lately, really beautiful boat!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:16 pm
by Jaysen
I guess I'll need to put some knees in...

I really hate pictures of Tony's boat. Makes Lil Bit seem so ... unloved.

Tony, I was thinking 1" hole mid and aft frames. My I love you bought is that 1" might not handle the number of lines. Between main sheet, lashings for things, statics dock/fenders, I'm thinking 2" would be smarter. Opinion?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:59 pm
by terrulian
I agree. Try a couple of test holes in a piece of scrap. Probably won't need more than two lines at a time so see how easy it is stuffing them through, and consider having to do it in a hurry from an awkward position. :wink:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:37 pm
by Jaysen
I was thinking a bit...

What about a small diameter hole (rounded and graphite), a line loop through it and a ring or two on the loop?

An other thought was a short line through a smaller hole with a ring on each end.

And one I think I like best... 2 small holes stacked vertical on mid and aft frame (both P and S). Eye on P and S underside of mast partner. Run high strength line through holes with tie off at eyes. I would tie off at knees but some jack a$$ didn't put them on his boat.

The advantage to the latter is I get a lot of tie off spots for working lines and static lines. I can even use them for cargo tie offs.

I could start with just on line and if it works add the second. If not, increase hole size to something like what you've got.

How stupid is that idea?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:17 pm
by terrulian
It might work. Offhand, it seems like more complication than is needed. When you tie up the boat you will want the dock/mooring line to be attached to a solid point, not tied to a line where it might slide. Not sure but I thought that's what you were describing. I like the idea of tie-downs, though, which is something you're going to have to sort out anyway.
When I design something of this sort I do what I think I've seen you do, which is do a proof-of-concept trial. You're going to need some kind of holes to attach lines amidships and aft, I think, so you could start with small holes as you describe, with the loop or ring, and see if that works out to be convenient. If not, the holes can be enlarged, although this isn't so easy with a hole saw once you've cut out the pilot hole area. The eye quickly catches a hole that is out of round, even a little, so you'd want to think this through on pain of a result that looks sloppy. You can put a plug in the hole to accomplish this.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:16 am
by pee wee
terrulian wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:17 pm If not, the holes can be enlarged, although this isn't so easy with a hole saw once you've cut out the pilot hole area. The eye quickly catches a hole that is out of round, even a little, so you'd want to think this through on pain of a result that looks sloppy. You can put a plug in the hole to accomplish this.
The typical way to enlarge a hole using a hole saw is get a piece of scrap and cut the new size hole in it, then clamp it securely in position where you want to cut the hole and use the scrap with hole to guide the saw. It usually works cleanly and it's easy to do. If you also sandwich an uncut piece of scrap on the back side you can either saw until you hit it, or if the material is thick you can use the new pilot hole to saw from the other side to complete the job.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:51 am
by Jaysen
I've always just used a piece of scrap ply and screws or clamps to cover existing hole. Provide a small pilot for centering and then have at it.

My thought was to keep the "securing line" hole under the 3/3 size for my testing which would make over drilling with hole saw or bore bit pretty simple.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:07 am
by terrulian
Yep, that's what I meant by a "plug." Sometimes it is not so easy to clamp a backing plate where you want it but usually that's the ticket.
My thought was to keep the "securing line" hole under the 3/3 size
Don't know what you mean here. 3/3 = 1 :?:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:17 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:07 am Don't know what you mean here. 3/3 = 1 :?:
3/8" was what I was SUPPOSED to type.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:18 am
by cape man
Was busy with the family the past several days, saying goodbye to my father, so missed your account of the launch. That is some funny stuff right there!!!

Congratulations!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:22 am
by terrulian
3/8" was what I was SUPPOSED to type.
OK, that makes sense.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:30 am
by Jaysen
cape man wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:18 am Was busy with the family the past several days, saying goodbye to my father, so missed your account of the launch. That is some funny stuff right there!!!

Congratulations!
Sorry to hear that Cape Man.

I've recently decided that I have one of two choices in how I handle setbacks in my life.
1. cry about everything
2. laugh about almost everything and cry when it really mattered
I was once told "real men don't cry" which I know is a complete lie. Every real man I've ever met has cried in public. Over dogs, children, wives, parents and cars. But I never saw them cry over getting dumped over the side of a boat or gluing themselves to a boat. Then, all the real men laughed. Laughed until tears ran down their faces. These were men like CL. My decision was easy.

I hope that someday my kids remember me as laughing at the times life smacked me in the back of the head and crying when life broke my heart. Then I know I will have lived properly.

Wow... way too deep for a Monday morning.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:09 pm
by Jaysen
Oars wrapped. This should get me through the fishing.
IMG_4286.JPG
Tomorrow I'm going to see if I can't improve the mast partner hole bushing situation.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:32 am
by jacquesmm
Sorry, I was on vacation camping in the mountains with no internet.

Mast step and partner hole: it can not be that loose but I think the building notes mention a Delrin bushing.
My intention was to have a bushing between the hole and the mast. This allows the mast to rotate like in fast dinghies.

You probably solved the "problem" but I see 118 pages of posts: I will gte back to that after I catch up with the hundreds of other questions waiting.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:44 am
by Jaysen
JM, The partner hole was entirely my fault. I misread a 3" off set as a 3" diameter for the hole. My solution will be a 1/2" rope loop secured to the partner and graphite impregnated epoxy on the mast. My original plan of wrapping the mast with 1/2" rope works well enough but I have to rewrap regularly. If my loop works I may just leave it since the rope makes and shift in the mast very quiet (and relaxing). If it doesn't work I will replace the partner properly.

Thank you for the great design. First fishing trip planned for the weekend. Not sure it I will be sailing or rowing. Doesn't really matter though... Love the boat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:00 pm
by terrulian
Jaysen,
On the oars: the one on the right looks great, the other perfunctory. Why's that?

On wrapping the mast or oars: you can affix the rope to the mast with epoxy. Use the slow hardener so it doesn't kick before you get it laced up.
Same with the oars. But of course, this is not so easy to remove. :?

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:13 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:44 am Thank you for the great design. First fishing trip planned for the weekend. Not sure it I will be sailing or rowing. Doesn't really matter though... Love the boat.
You do know I am expecting pictures of these fish you speak of :D

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:16 pm
by Jaysen
The white wrap is not "new" on either. I noticed the wear on the left just after i finished. I will likely pull it ALL off and redo it this weekend post (hopefully) getting some fish on board.

As to using epoxy... I didn't want to do that until I am 100% on the spacing and sizing or the wraps. Same true of mast (but I'm changing the entire plan there). I do intend to use epoxy for glue on the final solution. I'm just not sure I'm there yet.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:24 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:13 pm
Jaysen wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:44 am Thank you for the great design. First fishing trip planned for the weekend. Not sure it I will be sailing or rowing. Doesn't really matter though... Love the boat.
You do know I am expecting pictures of these fish you speak of :D
I'm sure you will be disappointed. I expect to be skunked given the water clarity loss we are seeing due to rain. BUT... even if I do catch a fish, you will ask "why is he eating the bait?" I'm most likely to get into the redfish which have a slot limit down here; 16.5 - 25.5" @ 3/day/person (and since the DNT will NOT issue official rulers you have to hope to god you get someone that is reasonable when they stop you, last guy I had kept rounding up until I request a second measure from the OTHER guy on the boat). If I get flounder, my target area holds them on the small side... 16-22" @ 24/day/person (>14" legal). I think the smaller ones are a bit better to eat and since I'm not out trophy fishing...

The bigger problem this week is bait. Everyone is having to purchase bait as the weather seems to have pushed the minnows and shrimp somewhere unknown. I have a few secret spots thanks to my refusal to use a motor that never get hit for bait. If I can find the right stuff and if the rest of the bait is really gone, then just maybe there will be some hungry fish that want to visit my grill. And I promise to show you anything that I manage to get into the boat.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:59 pm
by Jaysen
I'm prepping for fishing. Here's my idea for the "tie off line" based on Tony's "frame holes".
1297

On the forward end I use a fig8 stopper with the working looped back and tied off with a clove. The loop+clove create a point to tie fenders.
1298

The aft end has a bowline with a ring. The ring proves a stop for fender AND a point to stuff the sheet.
1299

More after I feed the boss.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:08 pm
by glossieblack
Nice details using appropriate knots Jaysen. 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:24 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks GB.

"The wanna-be-sailor without a boat spends a lot of time with rope." -- Dr David Martin, March 2016.

That old man made me tie a different knots every time I boarded his beautiful Shannon 34. And god forbid I ever tie one wrong under sail. I swear I almost wound up in the drink several times due to bad squares on a fast reef. And now I have a lot of automatic knot tying skills thanks to him.

Now if only I had the sailing experience that you, tony and all the other "old salts" have...

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:31 pm
by terrulian
Looks OK from here. You're going to have to find out "out there," as Captain Ron says.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:34 pm
by Jaysen
Fixed a bunch of rigging stuff. Completely relaced the sail. Bowline to mast top pin, shortened distance to throat fig8 knot, reduced the slack in the lacing, changed pace direction to keep sail on opposite side of sprit, corrected tack fig8, created a mast loop for tack, and set up better down haul to keep tension on the luff instead of the lacing. Didn't get pictures of that but much better leading edge on the sail.

Had to reset the snotter block to get the angle and tension directed better. The changes to lacing altered the overall height and position of the sail by several inches.
1300

Went to West Marine. My wallet cried. Loudly. Found some small nylon blocks for the snotter and sail down haul.
1301

Found a cleat that I liked for the anchor and tie off of "things".
1302

I'd been thinking about how to do the mast mess betterer. My wrap on the mast worked well but tended to separate. I took a longish think while rewrapping the mast and figure I could put a loop of rope IN the partner. You know what? You can! The ends of the loop are aligned aft and secured with 1" screws. The front quarters are also screwed down. Mast rotates freely. Slides in and out freely.
1303

1304

1306

And here we are ready (and hoping) to add to the fishing thread tomorrow. We shall see. We shall see.
1307

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:06 pm
by glossieblack
Jaysen wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:24 pm Now if only I had the sailing experience that you, tony and all the other "old salts" have...
Us coastal sailors are not in the same league as round the world sailors like Tony. They are a class apart. 8)

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:14 pm
by Fuzz
GlossieBlack me thinks you are selling yourself short just a tad. :wink:

What I want to see is will Jaysen or the fish spend more time in the water :doh: :lol: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:37 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:14 pm GlossieBlack me thinks you are selling yourself short just a tad. :wink:
Yeah. Next he'll be saying skinnydip is a "work boat" build.
Fuzz wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:14 pm What I want to see is will Jaysen or the fish spend more time in the water :doh: :lol: :lol:
I give it a 50/50.

I would point out that green thing on the aft seat... life jacket. A real one. I'll be out in waters up to 60' deep "learning" and with several miles between shores. That sucker won't be sitting on the seat, it will be tightly attached to my person.

Luckily the best fishing for me is in the shallow water (< 3') so I'll be able to relax when it's time to get down to business.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:26 am
by terrulian
Jaysen,
Not only are your solutions to these issues very clever, they're beautiful. I have a weakness for this stuff.
Great work!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:35 am
by Jaysen
Thanks tony!

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:49 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, innovative but really looks cool as well!! Nicely done!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil Bit' of everything fun

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:38 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks Jeff.

The v12 can do Big water. Out there it's about 2' &8sec but the wind picked up to 15kn. Had a jibe earlier that nearly put me over but managed to drop sheet and saved it. Changed shorts after. Here she is stopped for lunch about 2mi from home and just inside the waves.
IMG_4305.JPG
Someday I may learn. Don't hold your breath.

Re: Jaysen's V12 -- 'Lil B