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Narfi's HC14 build thread - LAUNCHED

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:12 am
by narfi
Hoping to start this weekend.

The hc14 does NOT call for a Strong back so I would like to present one made from 2x8s.........
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Reality is I used all my scrap 2x6s I was planning to use under my tent frame poles and didnt have any left for the strongback. So I just used these scrap 2x8s I had from tearing down my porch.

The tent floor is uneven and not level so I figured I would make the Strong back for my fs17 early and get it leveled to use as the table for the hc14.

Plan on putting 6 legs under it tomorow and getting it good and level and square.
Will use either 4x4s or 2x8s for the legs and sheet the top with 1/2" scrap plywood.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:56 am
by glossieblack
Congratulations on starting your HC14 build. :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:29 am
by Aripeka Angler
Yes, congratulations! You are moving fast 8)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:57 am
by Jeff
Narfi, congratulations on the start of your initial build. If you would from time to time, just note what the temp is in the tent where you are working!!! I always ask Fuzz as your weather swings so much!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:35 am
by Eric1
Congratulations on your start! :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:53 pm
by narfi
10am overcast Saturday morning. Weather station at my work 3/4 mile away is reporting 55f

I don't have an outside thermometer or one for my tent.... will look on Amazon.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:44 pm
by TomW1
Narfi used these in my green houses for tracking temps. Worked well as it gave day time hi and night time low. http://www.agrisales-inc.com/Hi-Low-The ... p_895.html You could also use outside.

Tom

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:03 am
by narfi
Got the legs on and the steongback squared and leveled.
Then sheeted the top of it with 3/4" plywood.
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:16 am
by narfi
Finally some fun stuff.

Marked the plywood centerline and 24inch lines then marked the lines and used small finishing nails and a thin strip of wood to trace the curves.

There were two measurements missing from the plans but searching the forum found them for me.

The nice thing about sheeting the strongback with old plywood is I don't care about scarring it up with the saw.

I've never really worked with wood before so kind of learning as I go. I think it's going ok so far though.
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:36 am
by narfi
Opened up my first bottles of marinepoxy and got 3 pumps setup, one in the resin and one in a fast and one in a medium hardener.

Mixed way to much for what I needed. Did 8 pumps of resin and 2 of each fast/medium hardener.
Mixed it thouraly and then poured some in a second cup and mixed wood flour in with it.

Applied the thickened resin between each of the seams and got them aligned well and wiped the excess off.

Then with a brush coated the plywood each side of the seam and layed the tape down and worked more resin in in till it was saturated.

I layed wax butcher paper under and over each seam and then a strip of plywood with weight on it. Hopefully they cure evenly without any warps.

I realized after I was done that the paper wasn't as waxy as I thought.... may have to sand it off tomorow... will find out.

I ended up needing a little more resin so did 2 pumps of resin and 1 of fast.
I made Way too much "glue" and it was getting hot and hard by The time I was done....
For some reason I am craving a carmel apple now........
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:19 am
by Jeff
Narfi, great start and I really like that Carmel Apple!!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:56 pm
by ahinkle
Like a rocket! Do you paddle as hard as you build?

Andrew

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:12 pm
by narfi
ahinkle wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:56 pm Like a rocket! Do you paddle as hard as you build?

Andrew
In short bursts?
Not sure :p


As I feared the paper wasn't waxy enough and became part of the boat......

I shaved as much of the extra off the opposite sides and finished off with a little palm sander.

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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:18 pm
by narfi
Got Landon involved in the first coat of epoxy.

The panels seem pretty solid so I didn't put anything on top of this side.

Got called into work so not sure if I'll get the molds cut out today or not.
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Weather Report:
1pm 55f and lightly sprinkling

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:51 pm
by Fuzz
I think I would go ahead and cover the whole table with some visqueen. It will say you from gluing something to the table sooner or later. I have never used any peelply but I understand it works great, if spendy. I have tried covering my layup with plastic but never had much luck but others swear by it. You just have to see what works for you. It is warm enough now to do most of your work with the medium hardner. It will give you more working time. Save the fast for when you are in a hurry of the temperature drops some.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:53 pm
by Jeff
Narfi, glad to see Landon is involved right from the very start of this build!!! Nice build temps too, compared to 95 here in Florida and even worse in the warehouse!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:28 am
by narfi
Got the 5 molds layed out on an old partial piece of osb. Since I had so many lines I used a sharp to mark around the cut lines. (Was paranoid I would cut one of them on the centerline on accident)

Added 4 inches to the top of each mold so it will sit up a little when upside down.
...... just realized I need to read the plans more.... I'm not sure if those are all level or not.... I may have screwed up on that not sure yet.........

I cut them out and sanded the edges smooth.


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Question: How do you know where to drill the stitching holes?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:40 am
by BB Sig
Where there is very little curvature (pressure) I used one every 6". Where the hull curves more (more pressure on the stitches, I spaced them every 2 - 3". This worked well in the bow of the FS13. It was tighter than 2" in a couple of stitches but that was more to do with alignment... :roll:

I second the part about laying down some plastic sheets. I did that and it works out nicely. No worries about spilling a drop here or there nor about pieces of wood (or tools) sticking to the table. If you do get a hole in the plastic, packing tape makes a nice patch!!!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:05 pm
by narfi
I understand 6" or whatever increments I decide..... But how do i align them from panel to panel?????? They obviously have to match.

I could use the 24" marks but they are straight where the panels curve........

Centers working out measured along the curve?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:19 pm
by BB Sig
Measure from the baseline and make a mark on all the stations so that it gives you enough to work with.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:55 am
by narfi
@BB Sig what do you mean by baseline? The fs17 and 19 plans I have show a baseline but the canoe doesn't.

I think I should be safe starting 3 inches each side of the seams and working out from there in 6 inch increments. Then adding holes if I need at 3 on the ends.



Honey doos kept me busy till 11 so not much progress to report :/

I put some 40grit on my little palm sander and attacked the paper I bonded to the seam.

Before: you can see there is paper embedded in the entire width of the resin......
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Mostly sanded off: you can see the paper areas look like voids in the resin but its really just the white of the paper.
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Done: ??? Good enough?
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Weather Report: 11:30pm 56f was warmer during the day.
Still light enough in the tent to do rough work but not detailed. Lights ordered from Amazon for when it starts getting dark sooner in the evening.
Picture taken at 11.30 without a flash.
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:15 am
by BB Sig
I haven't seen these plans. I ASSumed there was a baseline. :oops: All four of the plans I have seen had a baseline. You have to have something to align the jigs. I know you've read the plans multiple times but I always find something that I missed previously (or forgot). Without a baseline, I can't imagine Jacques would design a jig. :?:

Maybe Jacques will comment...

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:54 am
by BB Sig
After looking at the study plans, I don't think it was ever meant to be built with a jig. This is a true stitch and glue build. The molds are throw a ways made for getting the shape right. I would bet that the plans say to build right side up and to support the ends as necessary. That's how the FS13 is designed to be built. :wink:

Let us know how Jacques meant it to be built...

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:13 am
by pee wee
In the photo of the sanded seam (that won't display when I try to quote) I see the binder threads are not all sanded away yet. It's not a requirement, but to cut down on fairing you can sand until they are gone. You used biaxial tape on the seam, so the glass fibers are running 45 degrees to the seam, the binder threads are the white pieces running parallel to the seam and don't contribute strength. Since this is your practice boat you may want some practice sanding! :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:28 am
by narfi
narfi wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:28 am

Added 4 inches to the top of each mold so it will sit up a little when upside down.
...... just realized I need to read the plans more.... I'm not sure if those are all level or not.... I may have screwed up on that not sure yet.........


BB Sig wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:54 am After looking at the study plans, I don't think it was ever meant to be built with a jig. This is a true stitch and glue build. The molds are throw a ways made for getting the shape right. I would bet that the plans say to build right side up and to support the ends as necessary. That's how the FS13 is designed to be built. :wink:

Let us know how Jacques meant it to be built...
I think you are right. It's a bit confusing though. Perhaps because I've read through the fa17/19 plans so much I read more into these than was there. I had planned to build this upside down like they are glassing the bottom first. But it seems like it's to be done inside first right side up.
It's confusing because the plans say order doesn't matter.

Guess I will do some more sanding in the evenings and think about it.
You say the binder string is supposed to be completely sanded off? I wondered about that..... the little fiberglass I have used before was woven tighter than that and didn't have a binder string. What are the differences and pros and cons?
I assume this is the right tape as it's what BBC sent me.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:39 am
by jacquesmm
The boat is designed to be built without a jig but like mots of our boats, you can also build her on a jig if you prefer: all the dimensions are there.
I built a HC16 prototype without a jig and it came together fast and square.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:46 am
by pee wee
The structural fiberglass we use on these boats is a biaxial weave, and they sew it together with plain thread so it is easier to handle and doesn't come unravelled. Once the epoxy is set there is no longer a function for those threads and since they sit proud of the surface the consensus is to sand them down, but stop short of sanding into the glass. Look for that cross-hatch pattern to emerge on the sanded surface. The woven fiberglass typically doesn't use those threads.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:49 am
by narfi
Thanks Jacques....
There are no measurements in the plans for doing it on a jig.
I cut the molds out but if I hard mounted them to my table I don't think heights would be right since there is no base measurement. Or is the bottom perfectly flat and I can measure from there?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:39 pm
by narfi
No physical work on the canoe yesterday :/
It was Prime day on amazon though, so got a 6" electric sander, a small router, and a thermometer which gives inside/outside readings for the tent.

Read this in another thread and Sounds like it might be a good idea for me as well.
terrulian wrote: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:06 am Welcome, Stuart.
This is a good time to use your side panels as a pattern to cut your rub rails.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:04 pm
by BB Sig
I missed out on that. I am wondering if it matters since my curve was on the bottom of that panel...

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:19 am
by narfi
pee wee wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:46 am The structural fiberglass we use on these boats is a biaxial weave, and they sew it together with plain thread so it is easier to handle and doesn't come unravelled. Once the epoxy is set there is no longer a function for those threads and since they sit proud of the surface the consensus is to sand them down, but stop short of sanding into the glass. Look for that cross-hatch pattern to emerge on the sanded surface. The woven fiberglass typically doesn't use those threads.
I think the threads i see are under the glass.... I may have sanded too much on the one piece. You can see first picture is sanded completely to the wood on the edges yet the thread is still visable. The last two I think I did right where the 45/45 is visable?(more so on the last one)



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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:59 am
by narfi
Weather report: was up to 80f today and smoggy from fires around the state.
I opened up the tent doors after work and then did my honey doos for a few hours and by the time I made it back out there it wasn't too bad.

Cut 12 strips 1.5" wide matching the curve of the top of the side panel to use as rub rails.
Stared at it all thinking about it for a bit..... That's about all I got done tonight.

Panels layed out so we can drill the holes and start putting it together tomorow or this weekend.

The stacked chine panels match almost perfectly but the side panels are about 1/4" off from each other in places. Hopefully it's not enough to cause issues during assembly.

Landon was pretty impressed with the sawdust and was wanting to collect as much as he could in a bowl to "put on the grass"........ Not sure why but he enjoys his little projects so why not?
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:34 am
by Jeff
Nice Narfi!!! Temps warmer than I expected but it is mid-July!!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:46 am
by narfi
Weather report: was another hot day. But 9:20pm it's 64f a good working temp in the tent once I had the flaps open and aired out a bit. Looks a bit like rain.

Many times I have seen it said here that the beauty of this type of building is that it is impossible to mess up too badly. Anything can be ground down and glasses over.

Tonight I am reminded of a more famous quote.
You can't fix stupid.
I told myself atleast 3 times going into this tonight not to do this even once started I remember telling myself not to do this........


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5pts to whoever spots it first........

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:16 am
by Fuzz
So did you glue it down to the table............no plastic down first?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:32 am
by narfi
Fuzz wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:16 am So did you glue it down to the table............no plastic down first?
Hehe nope.
Try again!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:45 am
by narfi
Well that was fun! It looks like a boat now!!!!!
Looks like I am having the same trouble bigyellowtractor is having with the chine panel not wanting to match the camber of station A.



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Ends up I have to work tomorow so can't stay up too late messing with it tonight. Good enough it looks like something now :)

Tomorow night I'll come up with a plan of attack....

1. I still need to wrap tape around the edges of the molds to make sure they don't get glued in.
2. Figure out how to secure the molds into place..... tape? Straps? Temp screws?
3. Tape all the inside seams so epoxy doesn't drip through.
4. Figure out how to support it all and turn it over.
5. Figure out how to get a good gap between panels.
6. Stare at it a few hours wondering what I'm about to screw up.
7. Glue between all the zip ties.

Will see how far down the list I get tomorow night :p

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:11 am
by Fuzz
To hold your frames screw some 2x scraps to the molds. Then screw your panels to the scraps. The screw holds will be no more trouble to fill than the tie wrap holes.
By golly that do look like a boat now. Sure is fun when some flat plywood magically looks like a boat :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:27 am
by Eric1
Looking good! :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:30 am
by Jaysen
Looks like the bow edge may be cut backwards but I can't tell. There's no splice in the next photos.

Only other thing that looks odd it the alignment for a few stitches.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:02 am
by narfi
Jaysen wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:30 am Looks like the bow edge may be cut backwards but I can't tell. There's no splice in the next photos.

Only other thing that looks odd it the alignment for a few stitches.
Hehe nope. Try again....

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:27 am
by cape man
You drilled holes in the top of the panels that nothing gets stitched to. 8)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:30 am
by terrulian
8O :? :roll: :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:33 am
by narfi
cape man wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:27 am You drilled holes in the top of the panels that nothing gets stitched to. 8)
Ding ding ding!!!
We have a winner :)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:45 am
by narfi
Another good picture I missed last night.
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I'll think more about the sequence of events for screwing the molds in with 2bys

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:56 pm
by Fuzz
Well you have some handy pre-made holes to use along the shear line :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:58 pm
by cape man
What do I get with 5 pts?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:10 pm
by bigyellowtractor
cape man wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:27 am You drilled holes in the top of the panels that nothing gets stitched to. 8)
I saw that but guessed you must have drilled them so that the glue holding the rub-rail on gets a really good mechanical key :D

After work today I reduced the camber of the chine on mold "A" and managed to get the ply to take a nice curve just with a cam strap.

Won't get any more done before mid-week. You'll be paddling before I'm assembled, I think 8)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:45 pm
by narfi
Spent an unbelievable amount of time getting the molds in and panels aligned to my satisfaction.

Used nails between the zip ties to get a good gap.
Used 2bys on the molds to secure them. Took a lot of work on the A molds but like mentioned elsewhere "It ain't going to the moon!"
Used duct tape to pull the outside ends of the nails up or down in areas the panels weren't lining up. Then taped between everything on the outside.
Spent so much time fighting the the molds I forgot to tape them :/

Landon had fun playing with the zip ties I was cutting off that were too tight and needed replacing.

Mixed up epoxy and wood flour. I've read peanut butter consistency and I think I was more of a peanut butter mixed with honey consistency...... If I got a huge glob on the mixing stick it could drip off but the amount I needed between zip ties and nails stayed on even inverted.

Didn't get done till 12:15 And while light enough to see outside it was really dim in the tent and in the "compartment" holes between molds.

I ended up using Landon's little play lantern I set in each bay as I glued those seams.

4 pumps of resin and 2 of hardner with 6 huge heaped high plastic spoons of flour got all the chine seams done. I applied it with the end of the mixing stick then took the radiused end of a rubber Bondo scrapper thing to clean it up.

Another 4 and 2 pumps almost finished the side seams and finished it off with a 2 and 1 that finishes the last bay of the side seams and then with a glove and finger put a bunch up inside the bow corners. (That is a tight area and will be interesting trying to glass.....)
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:07 pm
by bigyellowtractor
Good job Narfi.

Re access to the bow / stern for glassing, the building notes suggest completing the bottom panel to chine seems before fitting the upper panels. I don't think I'll do that just so I have more chance of aligning things but I'd already decided to fillet and glass the pointy ends while access is easier.

I think you have discovered what I have come to realise; a bigger boat might be easier as a first build 8O

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:34 pm
by narfi
Morning looks ok.

Have a sample of most of the seams glued.
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One problem area near mold A the tape holding the nail came loose and the panels sprung back apart..... will have to figure out what I am going to do there.
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:11 pm
by Fuzz
Leave that area until you get things locked in solid. After that you can shape it with a sander. Even if you have to take much of the plywood off it will be ok. You can always do some build up on the back side with some glass.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:29 am
by narfi
That's my plan fuzz it already looks better with some glue over the seam.

Today I cut all the zip ties and removed all the spacer nails.
Then removed the duct tape from the outside and put duct tape on all the inside seams.

Cleaned up and swept a bit then had Landon help me flip the canoe over upside down.

Glued all the seams and filled all the holes excluding what the screws are attached to the molds.
Built up the seams a the bow panels that weren't matching up perfectly. Can hopefully sand them down to attractive curves by the time I'm done.

Tomorow I plan to start sanding all the edges to a good radius, pulling the screws and filling those holes. (Hopefully it will hold its shape now that everything is Glued?)


Got an Air compressor from a coworker who doesn't have a shop anymore and wanted to get rid of it. Traded him a 1/2 gal epoxy kit I hadn't used for the model fs19 we were doing last winter for it. Now I can paint here instead of having to worry about dragging it across town to work to paint it.
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:54 am
by Fuzz
Starting to look a lot like it might float :D I bet Landon is going to be wanting to try it out pretty soon :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:10 am
by Eric1
Narfi, She is looking great! :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:46 am
by Jeff
Narfi, A huge amount accomplished over the weekend!!! Looks great!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:11 pm
by Browndog
Way to go. A boat is born!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:21 am
by bigyellowtractor
Narfi,

When are you going to stop dragging your heels ?????? :lol:

That's the dog's danglies. Not too shabby, not too shabby at all.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:07 am
by narfi
Thanks guys.
Just not enough time in the day to go any faster and still stay up on work and family.... (wife was upset this weekend I wasn't quite getting that balance right :/ )

Started sanding with my little palm sander. The 6" orbital hasn't arrived yet. Only got one chine done.... 3 more seams to go.

Got the bow curves starting to take shape.

Found one spot that I sanded through the glue along the chine.

Big news... removed all the former screws and it held it's shape :)

Filled the screw holes and the void in the seam I found.

Made my first attempt at a sanding block for the 4" sticky paper I have. (Saw it here on the forum but forget who to give credit to)

Weather report: 10pm 55f rained about 30 minutes this evening but was a nice day. Grilled at work for lunch with my coworkers.(monday/Friday summer tradition for us second summer in a row)
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:36 am
by Jeff
Nice temps Narfi!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:56 pm
by Fuzz
Jeff wrote: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:36 am Nice temps Narfi!! Jeff
Hey Narfi have you noticed all the guys giving us grief about our weather in January are now wanting to trade :lol: :lol: :lol:
You are making good progress. The hardest part about building a boat is finding the time to do it and not neglect the other parts of your life.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:06 pm
by cape man
She's definitely looking like a boat now!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:03 am
by narfi
Got some toys in the mail. The rest of the Prime Day sale stuff from Amazon.
6" sander, router, multitool, and indoor/outdoor thermometer.
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While I was unpacking Landon did a little (very little) sanding.
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The 6" sander made things much much easier and I got all the seams sanded and radiused and got the front and back looking pretty decently curved.

There were a few voids in the glue seams so I finished the night off with a last tiny batch of Epoxy and wood flour to fill those holes and one last shaping of the front and back curves. (I am a little worried about them because they are so narrow that it's impossible to have a 1/2" radius for the tape and glass to go around.)

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Hoping to do a quick sand in the morning and epoxy the tapes on.
Then in the afternoon put the then cloth on while the morning application is still green.


Weather report: another hot day probably up into the low 80s but by the time I made it out to the boat factory after getting the honey doos done it wasn't too bad.
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Pro tip: don't suggest to the lady of the house that maybe she shouldn't leave the cardboard boxes with your new tools in them out in a rainstorm before you get home.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:36 pm
by narfi
Even using the fast hardner last night it wasn't ready to sand this morning :(

The leftovers I left on the Bondo spreader to make it easy to pull off and clean is about like thick taffy.
Hopefully by 2 or 3 it will have heated up enough I can sand it and get started. Feeling like most of a day wasted :/ got up this morning eager to start taping and glassing.

Need to find a better location for the outside temp sensor..... by 11 it was claiming 175f but was in direct sunlight......
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:58 pm
by cape man
Patience is your friend 8)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:26 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Great start! You have put together a nice boat building factory!!
I was showing my wife your build pictures this morning over breakfast and she thought it was cool than your boy Landon was getting involved.
Since we are coming to AK in a couple of weeks, she hit me with the " I wonder where Bush AK is? Maybe we could stop by?"
I said I don't think so, Narfi is probably a little off the beaten path...

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:37 pm
by narfi
I sent you a private message with more personal info :)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:50 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Got it, have a great afternoon :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:29 pm
by narfi
Well it's a cooker today.
Hit over 90 in the shade and up over 100 in the boat factory.

I've got it sanded and ready to tape but I wasn't expecting this heat so slowest epoxy I have is medium...... I'll wait till this evening and hopefully 70ish degrees to start.
20170722_161835.jpg
(The end pieces of tape are cut and will put on after the chine and side pieces)

I might put the 4oz on as soon as I'm done with the tapes..... will see how smooth the tapes look when I am done.

What do you guys suggest for fairing? I was thinking of applying the first thin layer of light weight filler while the epoxie is still green(no longer gooey but not yet hard enough to sand) before any initial sanding. Is that a good or bad idea?
The 4oz seems to be woven and doesn't have the rows of threads standing up, so it should be pretty smooth right away?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:36 pm
by TomW1
Narfi I took a community college course on weather. They said to get accurate outdoor weather to place the thermometer 6' above the ground in a shady area like a porch or north side of a building.

Tom

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:04 pm
by narfi
I think I'm close Tom..... 7' in the shade outside you can just see the bottom of it in the picture. And 5.5' inside.
20170722_174407.jpg
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20170722_174914.jpg


You guys might not think it's much but I'm dying here!!!!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:21 pm
by Jaysen
Down here we look at that temp, steal a neighbor's boat or dock and see what's biting. Unless you are Eric. Then you sand anyway ;)

You can work in those temps. The key is small. Small batches. Small area at a time. Pre measure resin and hardener into little batches. Set the unmixed measured amounts close to where you are working. Mix, pour, spread quickly. Small batches means only focus on what's right there. Repeat until you're done. I think you have the pumps so you might be able to avoid the premeasure.

Or work at night when it's cooler. That is why you have those lights isn't it? ;)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:16 am
by Fuzz
Narfi if you get the 4oz down good it will be just as smooth as whats under it. I like putting on a little fairing compound while it is still green. This will save you one round of sanding :D If you are mixing your own fairing compound I like it pretty loose for the first round. Loose fills in the weave and low spots pretty well and will do a little self levelling on the level areas. You are not trying to make it perfect the first round just getting rid of some of the big uglies :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:52 am
by narfi
Started around 10pm and finished just after midnight.
Me, wife and a friend of hers. (Landon did a little brushing and a lot of supervising)

I'm not sure batch sizes but was doing 4 pumps of epoxy and 2 pumps of medium hardner per batch and 2 and 1 for half batches.

Tapes were all pre cut and held in place with packing tape (seems I need to get some masking tape comming)

I've they were on we rolled out the 4oz roll and cut it in place. Probably messed too much with getting it oriented just right I realized that the rub rails gave me that 1.5 inch on the edges I didn't need perfection.......

Used brushes for the resin on the tapes and most of the 4oz was applied with the Bondo scrapper which worked really well then brushes working out bubbles and more scraping.

I'm really happy with It, it looks great to my untrained eyes.
There were a few spots with bubbles between the tapes and 4oz that I couldn't get worked out. Not sure how bad that is........ I know you don't want them but don't have any experience to judge them by.

Plan if I wake up before it's too hot in the morning I'll put on a nice coat of filler then tomorow night if it's a scorcher like today it will be ready for sanding.
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:03 am
by Eric1
Y'all did good! :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:42 am
by dbcrx
That looks great. Those bubbles are probably small enough that I wouldn't worry about them, but if they're only between the tape and the cloth you could just trim them out and fill them.

I do see one potential problem though. It looks like you may have just glued the canoe to your support blocks. I don't see any tape or plastic on them.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:51 am
by narfi
The supports aren't structural?

I left those uncovered for fuzz.

I wanted an excuse to use my new multitool.

I thought with cool nights they would still be soft enough to cut them off in the morning with a Razer.

Honestly? I'm an idiot.

Maybe lazy?

For sure I have a bad memory.......

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:11 am
by BB Sig
Looking good and you are flying through this build!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:40 am
by Jeff
Narfi, nice work and cool temps!!! I think there are a few of us that would love to exchange our temps!!! Nice work on the HC14!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:59 am
by Jaysen
narfi wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:51 am I wanted an excuse to use my new multitool.
He talked you into an S. O. B. tool?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:03 am
by cape man
Don't worry about the bubbles. Not a planing boat, so very little stress on the lamination.

Looking awesome.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:51 pm
by bigyellowtractor
Looking good Narfi

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:37 pm
by narfi
Jaysen wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:59 am
narfi wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:51 am I wanted an excuse to use my new multitool.
He talked you into an S. O. B. tool?
If thats what you call the thing on the left in this post....
https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p400577

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:39 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz strikes again.

Yes. That's the S.O.B. tool.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:27 pm
by narfi
Well the broad strokes are done....... now I have to figure out how to detail O.o

Box knife with a fresh blade cut the green edges off like a hot knife through butter. Things shouldn't be that easy!

Mixed the mixed light weight filler 2 pumps of resin 1 pump of fast hardner and 5 plastic spoons heaped with filler used 6 spoons on the side panels as I couldn't just pour it out over it so used ~1ftx1ft piece of plywood to hold it on and cut what I needed off with the Bondo scraper.

So..... how do I take it all back off?
I have the 6inch sander the little palm sander and the board with handles I made..... what grit do I use?
Any tips?
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:33 pm
by Jeff
Looks great Narfi!!! Well done & fast!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:49 pm
by Aripeka Angler
narfi wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:27 pm
So..... how do I take it all back off?
I have the 6inch sander the little palm sander and the board with handles I made..... what grit do I use?
Any tips?
You are doing pretty nice work!
First, use the board with the handles until you can't stand it anymore :wink: :lol: 40,60,80 grit are all good.
Push the long board at a 45' angle to the tape, that will reveal your low spots for the next coat of fairing.
Add fairing compound in the next round only in the lows.
You will know if the boat is not ready to sand, the fairing will roll up and clog your sandpaper quickly.
Leave the random orbital on the shelf until round three...

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:58 am
by narfi
40grit on the board and a few hours of elbow grease.......
Changed the paper once about 3/4 of the way through.
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Brushed all the dust off and added filler between the tapes.

I noticed sanding that I had noticeable dipps in the filler from digging in the Bondo scrapper. I tried harder to do full length single passes this time... not sure how successful I was but time will tell.....

Hit the 1gal of epoxy mark so 1.5 gal of epoxy+hardner..... hopefully I'm not being too wasteful in my inexperience...
(1/2 to 3/4 inch left in the bottom of first bottle I switched early because I didn't want the pump to suck air and throw off the mix. When this one is down a bit I'll pour that in with it.)
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Finished at 1.30am but phone was dead and couldn't take final pictures till this morning.

Question: Is there info on making paddles anywhere? I just realized at this rate Landon will have his undersized kayak paddle and I'll be swinging a 2x4 o.O

Question 2: Is there any reason to sharpen the chines and side seams? Or are they ok rounded as is?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:39 pm
by bateau-webmaster

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:44 pm
by bateau-webmaster
I also made a pretty good 'yak paddle with some scrap 4mm and 10oz glass, and a piece of PVC. I'll try and find a picture. The handle was a little bit too flexible, but that could be remedied by adding more glass (I used 1 layer of FG sock over the length of the sanded pvc pipe). I cut a slot in the end of the PVC, made the piece of wood into a teardrop shape, with a bit of an extended end, so it would fit into the slot. Sanded the PVC down real good, with 60 grit or so, and made a fillet between the PVC and the ply. Then laid the 10oz glass over each side. (I did a pretty cool sharpie design over each side as well before the glass).

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:37 pm
by bigyellowtractor
I bought a book "Canoe Paddles A Complete Guide to Making Your Own by Graham Warren" and intend to make a couple of different styles, but while in Decathlon picking up some golf umbrellas in preparation for my Daughter's wedding, came across this.

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/yampa-150-w ... 90638.html

too cheap not to buy.

Your little boat is looking great by the way

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:07 am
by narfi
Thanks guys I'll read more up on those links.
They do seem cheap.... but would still be fun to make them myself.......

Started to sand tonight but it started balling up a little so I guess I got the night off. Temps were down and it rained off and on this afternoon. Guess at this temp range it needs a full 24hrs till I can sand :(

Will see if I can catch up on sleep or get distracted with something else.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:24 am
by bigyellowtractor
narfi wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:07 amThey do seem cheap.... but would still be fun to make them myself.......
Me too. I think paddle making could be a very mellow thing to do in the workshop. Just thought I'd pick one up so, like you posted, I don't end up launching and having to paddle with a lump of 4x2. 8O

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:02 pm
by Aripeka Angler
I think you are doing a great job for the first time of fairing and sanding!

narfi wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:58 am Question 2: Is there any reason to sharpen the chines and side seams? Or are they ok rounded as is?
No, leave them rounded.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:35 pm
by narfi
bateau-webmaster wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:39 pm Narfi, Here's the link.
All the reference links at the end of that article are dead :/

I know nearly nothing about paddles, sizing etc....

I found this link through google which seems pretty good "info for idiots" type I was looking for.
http://www.ronliskey.com/sites/default/ ... paddle.pdf

I guess my wife had already started looking for life jackets and paddles on amazon, so we will see how far I get down this rabbit trail :P

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:18 am
by pee wee
Have you looked at this page that's linked through the "free plans" section?: http://bateau.com/free/simple_oars.html

It's for oars instead of paddles, but in my ignorance I believe there may be generous crossover of helpful information.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:36 am
by bateau-webmaster
Thanks for checking out the links, The broken links at the bottom have been removed.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:24 am
by narfi
Did another round of sanding last night.
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Applied more fairing material....
This time I mixed it a little thinner and applied it MUCH thinner. I held the Bondo applicator almost 90° and pressed hard removing all I had applied except for the lows. Kind of an experiment for me as I don't know what I'm doing :p

How do you guys apply fairing mix?
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Temps were down again and it rained all day yesterday and last night so I expect I won't be able to sand till tomorow night. (Besides my body can't take repetitive sanding sessions so late into the night/morning.... don't think I am as young as I used to be :( )
Plan is to try a little finer grit this time. Been using 40grit so maybe 80 grit now, I forget what sizes I had bought.
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:44 am
by Reid
Narfi,

Looks like you are making some great progress!!! This is definitely the most time consuming part of the build, depending on the level of finish you are looking for. Like you said earlier, you want to spread the fairing compound on nice and thin. You are not looking to cover the entire boat in each time you add fairing compound. Once the weave is filled in, you just need to fill the low spots. This will take some back and forth with the sanding blocks and the fairing compound. It is a meticulous process that pays off in the end. As far as you application goes, sounds like you are doing fine. Keep the spreader as close to 90 degrees as you can and just fill the low spots. If you start adding too much you will create more high spots and will be going in circles.
Keep it up, looks great!
Reid

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:56 pm
by Fuzz
With our cooler temps making the epoxy take longer to set up it is tempting to apply too much fairing compound. The thought being it is quicker to sand a little extra off than to wait for the next batch to cure. Try to avoid falling into this trap. Thin is better even if it takes more coats and waiting time. Cracker Larry would say "we ain’t frosting a cake here"

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:09 pm
by bigyellowtractor
Looking good Narfi

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:17 pm
by narfi
Thanks guys!
Still having fun, though wife says i cant keep staying up that late.
Then boss told me we have a plane coming in tonight that needs done by morning o.0

I just noticed in my pictures that my thermometer has the right time but shifted 12hrs..... I need to change the AM/PM on it around.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:33 pm
by BB Sig
Looking good! My wife hates me staying up late working on anything but as soon as I get in bed to get some sleep, she wants to talk for an hour! :roll:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:35 pm
by Jeff
Narfi, really nice work!! Also, compared to here, that is one nice temp you have up there!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:39 pm
by cape_fisherman
A notched trowel works well for compound. You end up with only the ridges of fairing on the hull. Be prepared as this is a two-step process. So you have applied the fairing compound through the notched trowel. With only the ridges to sand away you have 1/2 the work (for now). Not only is this much easier & faster to sand, but it also acts as a preliminary guide coat. Once you have sanded back to glass, then you can easily see your lows as they will still be notched. You then will need to apply a solid round of fairing...that will fill in the left behind notches.

Some of the best professional builders I know use a notched trowel for fairing.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:09 pm
by narfi
Good info!
Ill use that plan on my FS17 for sure.
Thanks!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:50 pm
by cape_fisherman
narfi wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:09 pm Good info!
Ill use that plan on my FS17 for sure.
Thanks!
And on your next build...a long fairing board will help save in some work. I know they are harder to push, but spanning the gaps can save one (or even two) rounds of fairing. Using small sanding blocks and orbital sanders can seem easier, but it will take longer to fair if you have a substantial amount of highs & lows.

Build or buy the longest board you can push yourself. A 39" Flexicat is the "cat's meow"...and a luxury. Buy one if you can swing the coin, but building one will work as well. I'd not recommend doing any major fairing with less than 36".

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:54 pm
by narfi
How do you do the insides?
Curves are wrong to use a long board.......

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:27 pm
by cape_fisherman
narfi wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:54 pm How do you do the insides?
Curves are wrong to use a long board.......
Bottom & sides...on the outside. Inside will take a wide variety of sanding apparatusssseess (apparatus).

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:11 am
by topwater
Make one longboard out of something flexible like 1/4" ply or plastic to use on curved surfaces .

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:35 pm
by TomW1
cape_fisherman wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:27 pm
narfi wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:54 pm How do you do the insides?
Curves are wrong to use a long board.......
Bottom & sides...on the outside. Inside will take a wide variety of sanding apparatusssseess (apparatus).
The insides can use the same boards once you lay out the fiberglass and epoxy. Remember there are no frames or stringers in place when you have laid out the fiberglass.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:19 am
by cape_fisherman
TomW1 wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:35 pm
cape_fisherman wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:27 pm
narfi wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:54 pm How do you do the insides?
Curves are wrong to use a long board.......
Bottom & sides...on the outside. Inside will take a wide variety of sanding apparatusssseess (apparatus).
The insides can use the same boards once you lay out the fiberglass and epoxy. Remember there are no frames or stringers in place when you have laid out the fiberglass.
Very good point, thank you.

I'm not used to seeing hollow hulls that are void of stringers and frames or bulkheads.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:13 am
by narfi
Sanded the edges where filler beaded up when applying it. It seemed to gum up the paper some which made it difficult. Then I switched to 80grit paper and started sanding the flat areas and it gummed up right away.

I stopped for the night and will try again tomorow.
It's been 2 days since I applied it.... hoping it's just the cooler temps and I didn't mix it poorly. It did get warm today but was cold and damp yesterday and when I was applying it......
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:19 am
by Fuzz
What did you use and what speed hardner? I keep the shop a steady 60 most of the time and it takes 24 hours sometimes if using slow hardner. If your inside temp is over 100f it should have been hard in 4 hours :?:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:29 am
by narfi
Marinepoxy and fast hardner.
First batch was 4pumps epoxy and 2 pumps hardner mixed then stired in filler. Second and third batches were 2pumps and 1hardner.

I had expected after baking this afternoon it would be good to go as well which has me worried I mixed it poorly or something. It acts just like it did before at 20hrs of cool temps and that was fine to sand after another day.

Guess I'll know the answer tomorow night :/

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:42 am
by Fuzz
Personally I never have liked using pumps. I know a lot of folks like them but they are not for me. It is dang hard to screw up or have something go wrong when you measure stuff out in cups. I have some small paper mixing cups from a glass supplier that read out in 10ml increments for small batches. When mixing bigger batches I use two cups to one cup of what ever size I need.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:47 am
by bigyellowtractor
I've been weighing batches with a digital kitchen scale and so far haven't had any issues

(you know what will happen now though, eh ??)

I have had a couple of times when my brain switched off and I couldn't divide a number by two though :oops:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:19 am
by cape_fisherman
bigyellowtractor wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:47 am I've been weighing batches with a digital kitchen scale and so far haven't had any issues

(you know what will happen now though, eh ??)

I have had a couple of times when my brain switched off and I couldn't divide a number by two though :oops:
Weighing can give you a super accurate measurement, but you have to remember that many epoxies are not the same 1:1 or 2:1 (or 3:1 or 4:1) measurements like you have in the volume method. You can't weigh out in equal parts in many instances. It pays to know the specific gravity of each component. It may not be as easy as simply dividing by two.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:25 am
by Jaysen
If you get balls or gummed up paper go drink a few beers and come back the next day.

Folks will suggest what I'm about to say is nothing by fecal matter, but it is exactly what happened to me so I'm just sharing my experience.

When working with silica I had the same problem with "measured" batches not hardening. I use volume cups so I know the volumes were right. This only happened when I used the silica filler. If you are mixing fairing compound from BBC it contains silica. It's possible there is something odd about that particular silica.

The solution for me was time. It will harden up but just takes time.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:23 pm
by bigyellowtractor
cape_fisherman wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:19 am Weighing can give you a super accurate measurement, but you have to remember that many epoxies are not the same 1:1 or 2:1 (or 3:1 or 4:1) measurements like you have in the volume method. You can't weigh out in equal parts in many instances. It pays to know the specific gravity of each component. It may not be as easy as simply dividing by two.
That is of course true but the epoxy I am using states 2:1 by either weight or volume

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:45 am
by Fuzz
108f..........holy crap are you post curing that thing as you go :!: 8O
I figure by now you have to keep an eye on it or Langdon will be sneaking it out for a test run :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:50 am
by narfi
I like that I can bake it during the day and it still cools down within an hour or so to human working conditions within an hour or so of opening it up :)

Well either it's almost sanded enough or I'm just tired of sanding........

I'm happy with the bottom and chine panels. No low spots on them. The side panels will probably need one more pass of fairing...... my back said enough was enough tonight though.

It's awkward sanding the side panels that low. I think tomorow I'll flip it up right again and see if that's any easier. Maybe put the rub rails on and finish the inside a bit more to get it more rigid as well.

Then I'll come back and sand with finer grid to get the scratch marks out and decide if I need to do more or not.
20170728_224600.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:20 am
by Jeff
Narfi, your HC14 is really looking good!! Also, nice temps to work in during late July and start of August!!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:31 am
by narfi
Didn't get much done on the canoe today.
Went across the lake with a friend of Landon's and ate some hotdogs and marshmallows and explored the rocks.
(Found a pile of moose bones scattered around. No meat left on them but they looked fresh)

Honey doos kept me busy for the afternoon then had to work a few hours this evening on a float plane. Looks like I'll be working tomorow as well :/

Did a little more sanding and then scrounged up an old pipe to cut for clamps. I wondered if it was old enough to be brittle but it seems to have plenty of "spring" left in it.

Dummied up the first layer of rubrail to see how it would fit and called it a night.
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:53 pm
by narfi
Got all 3 layers fitted this morning and then my wife helped hold each strip in place as I clamped them.

I was surprised at how well it held the sides to their appropriate spacing. I only needed to clamp it to the formers in 3 or 4 spots furthest from the camera. All the sides close to the camera were near perfect for width so I didn't even clamp the formers there they are just sitting there for my visual measurements.

Finished at 1.35 this afternoon..... was supposed to be at work at 1.30.... oops.
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Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:07 pm
by Jeff
Nice work Narfi!!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:51 am
by bigyellowtractor
Looking good and nearly floaty !!!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:16 am
by narfi
Glue was cured solid when I got home from work so I removed all the clamps and pulled the formers out.

Alot of mess to clean up inside before I can glass.
Guess I wasn't careful enough when spot welding and taping the inside before filling the outer seams.
20170730_215636.jpg
I tried knocking them down with the 6" but that just tore up the edges of the paper. So I've started using the palm sander with 40grit on it. It's slow going but seems to be working. Got maybe 1/4 to 1/3rdish done.

20170730_215742.jpg
20170730_215724.jpg

I'm still confused about my fairing compound curing issues......
Straight epoxy cures as fast as I expect.
Epoxy with wood flour as glue cures as fast and can be sanded without excessive curing time.
But when mixed with the mixed filler from BBC it takes a few days even at elevated temperatures and even then still clogs up the paper some.
Is there something in it that floats to the top that clogs the paper?
Jason mentioned having the same issue with his.....
The point of the mixed filler is to be light weight and easy to sand, right?
If it's not easy to sand would something else be better?
The wood flour mix cures quickly how does it sand for fairing?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:57 am
by Jaysen
I tried wood flour. It's hard to sand compared to fairing mix. I would not recommend it. That said it will work.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:42 am
by pee wee
I don't know what's going on with your situation, but the blended filler I bought from BBC in years past set up quickly and sanded easily.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:02 am
by bateau-webmaster
You are pre-mixing the epoxy, then adding fillers, correct?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:24 am
by topwater
I have used a lot of the blended filler on my build with no problems. Get your epoxy and hardener mixed together
real well " at least 2 min" then slowly mix in the filler until you get the consistency you want. Make sure everything
is mixed well, no clumps . Make sure you scrape the bottom and sides of the container well while mixing both epoxy and
the filler.The filler is basically made up of micro balloons and silica .

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:58 am
by narfi
Yep I mix epoxy first really well. Then mix in the powder a couple plastic spoonfuls at a time and mixed very well. Both before and after the powder I scrape the edges and bottom of the cup multiple times. No clumps at all it is always a smooth mixture no matter how thin or thick I mix it.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:26 pm
by Fuzz
If I have large low spots I like to use the wood glue to rough fair it. I just think it will be tougher and I always have lots of wood flour around. I have then used the blended fairing mix. It has always been set up for me by the next morning. I have never had the problems you are having :doh: If you think you are pretty close to fair start using the Quick Fair. After using it you might decide that is the only way to go :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:08 pm
by narfi
Did some more sanding inside last night, almost done with prepping for interior glassing. Hope to finish the prep tonight.

I wanted to do a layer of 4oz over the interior like I did on the outside, but imagine it will be even more difficult to layout without wrinkles etc... Would doing it in several pieces side to side the width of the cloth(50" overlapped by an inch or so) be bad?

The rubrails...... Lots of highs and lows from layer to layer, I had just cut them roughly to the shape of the top of the side panels before anything was assembled. Assuming I could clean it up later........
My thought is to use a little epoxy/wood flour to fill the lows on the top and then a small hand plainer to take down the highs and smooth it all out. (I have never used a hand plainer before but have one coming from amazon)
Then when the top has a nice smooth and fair looking surface use a 1/2" radius router bit to round over the corners. (I have never used a router either o.0)
Is this a good approach to making the rubrail look nice? I think doing this I can make the top look near perfect, and if I round under the bottom properly it will give the rail a uniform height and not look wavy?

The little palm sander I have been using is hook n latch or whatever that is called, but I didn't have any new pads for it, I have just been sticking the sticky back strips I have in rolls over the last pad on it and then cutting it to fit which has worked pretty well so far, but that finally deteriorated enough i pulled it off last night. Any thoughts for sticking sticky back paper to latch n hook type pads?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:17 pm
by Fuzz
Not much help on the sander, sorry. As for the cloth in pieces I do not see any problem doing it that way. If it were heavier material it might cause you to do more fairing and sanding but 4oz is so light it should not matter. Doing the rub rails like you plan will work. A good sharp plane will cut the epoxy/wood flour just like wood. Plus it comes off in nice long shavings and not sanding dust. Even drilling it will produce nice shavings.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:11 am
by narfi
So I finished sanding the excess glue on the inside seams and decided I'd glass inside tonight.
20170802_224254.jpg

Layed fillets of epoxy/wood flour on all the inside seams using the Bondo scraper bent to a curve. The ends I filled with the mixing sticks/tounge depresses and was surprised it turned out pretty decent for as tight a corner it is.
20170802_224319.jpg
I layed the tapes down and gently patted them onto the fillets to hold in place. Then wife and I brushed them all down with epoxy. We also "primed" all the bare wood with epoxy.
20170802_224358.jpg
Then we layed down 3x 50" widths of 4oz sideways and I used the Bondo scraper to spread epoxy around on them. Started with the center one then did the two ends. Struggled with getting it to lay down well quite a bit, but in the end it's "good enough for who it's for"
20170802_224454.jpg
Weather report: 11pm 60f and raining (I used medium speed hardner for epoxy and fillets)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:25 am
by Jeff
Nice Narfi!!!! Really well done glass work!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:05 pm
by Fuzz
Your glass looks a little resin rich in the stern. But it is real hard for that to not happen when working in small/tight places. Other than that things are looking good.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:37 pm
by narfi
I agree. It's because I was fighting that top layer to lay down without wrinkling. There is a bit of an optical delusion there as well..... there is less than one foot without the extra layer at each end but the angle of the camera makes it look like the closest 1/4 of the canoe is more than 1/2 the length.
20170803_092044.jpg
I got up this morning and fried up some bacon sausage and eggs and a cup of coffee. Then headed out and trimmed the excess cloth off the edges and applied a layer of fairing mix over it all.
Experimented with the back radiused edge of the Bondo spreader in the corners and realize I should have done that with the fillets under the tape, it worked very well.
20170803_092102.jpg
55f and raining......

I knew it would be a slow day in the hangar so an hour late to work isn't bad :p

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:16 pm
by Fuzz
When you start planning your day around the cure times for epoxy you know you have BBV bad :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:00 am
by narfi
Filled the tops of the rub rails.

20170803_224457.jpg
Converted my Velcro palm sander to take sticky back paper.
Cut the new pad out of an old children's puzzle piece floor mat and attached it with longer screws through it and the original pad since the original holds the bearing for the eccentric vibrator shaft.

20170803_224615.jpg
20170803_224717.jpg
20170803_224639.jpg

Then cut a new softer more flexible sanding board with 1/4" plywood and bonded handles and a strip of the same foam to it. (Will find out how well the epoxy bonds to the foam it's an experiment)



20170803_224741.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:37 am
by cape_fisherman
Looking really good...making progress!

Handles on the fairing board are probably a little close to the center. Maybe move them about half the distance from where they are to the outside edges. Also, heavy foam on the board isn't usually desirable. I have seen firm 1/4" foam used, but most boards are built without foam at all.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:18 am
by narfi
Good points thanks.
I thought the handles looked close but I did it thinking I wanted the outer section to flex back when sanding the inside curves. I can cut them off and go again if it doesn't work.

Foam density and thickness I'm just experimenting...... that's the only foam I could think of laying around...... it's pretty hard and was hoping it won't give too much..... you are probably right though...... guess I'll find out. Alot of what I do is gaining experience both good and bad ;p

Coworker ran the tractor out of fuel pulling a float plane out of the water last night........ it's a pain to re prime once it's run dry. I did the same thing years ago and have never turned the key since without leaning over and opening the cap and looking down the tank. My guess is he won't either.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:18 pm
by cape_fisherman
You're on the right track.

Being raised on a farm...I know all to well not to run a diesel out of fuel. I also learned to have reflexes like a cat...one sputter from the engine and shut it down NOW...just don't let it run out!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:22 pm
by narfi
Its been a wet rainy couple of days, probably 50-55 at night and 60 during the day so stuff is a bit slower curing.
The fairing compound i applied inside yesterday is still a bit soft but mostly cured, however this morning it felt like a film was on the surface almost like dew. Is this something from using the fast hardner? Is there something I can wipe it off with before sanding to prevent clogging the paper issues I have been having? Maybe I'm over thinking it and just need to wait for a hot afternoon to cure it well before I try sanding.... just not sure.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:34 pm
by pee wee
Given that you used fast hardener, it sounds like amine blush you feel, try rinsing it off with water- if that doesn't work it's something else.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:34 pm
by cape_fisherman
pee wee is most likely right. Blush can be rinsed off. If it's still there, use soap.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:30 pm
by Fuzz
And a scotch bright pad. Might need to steal one from the boss. Just don't get caught :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:47 am
by narfi
Fuzz wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:30 pm And a scotch bright pad. Might need to steal one from the boss. Just don't get caught :lol:
Which boss you talking about?????
One has dishwashing scotch brite pads.
The other has sheets of aggressive maroon colored scotch brite.

I chose option one to start with as that was closer......
Warm water and a little dish soap and a new dishwashing scotch brite pads I scrubbed the entire exterior down. Then threw out the bowl of soapy water and got clean warm water and einced it all out then mopped it all up and dried it with a couple paper towels.

It seemed better but hard to tell damp...... water did still bead up on it but not too badly.(I think I read somewhere that was a good test to see if you had it all off?)
20170804_213334.jpg

Decided to have a backyard camping night. So setup the tent and mattresses while I waited for it to finish drying.

20170804_213401.jpg

Landon couldn't wait for the fire to be going good before he had a marshmallow in the flames :p
He is playing pyro now while I type this out on my phone and is tearing up Amazon boxes and feeding them to the flames.
20170804_213510.jpg

After the tent was setup I tried sanding a little and it seems to sand fine now without gumming up the paper.
I think you guys solved my problem.......

Thanks! :)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:51 am
by bigyellowtractor
narfi wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:47 am Landon couldn't wait for the fire to be going good before he had a marshmallow in the flames :p
He is playing pyro now while I type this out on my phone and is tearing up Amazon boxes and feeding them to the flames.
:-) I'll always maintain that the most fun present you could give a boy is a gallon of petrol and a big box of matches.

Canoe is looking good Narfi. I hope to get a bit done on mine today

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:08 am
by narfi
I don't think there is an age where boys/men don't enjoy fire :)
I'm looking forward to seeing your progress!


Sanded a bit before turning in (to the tent) for the night.
Found that the sticky back sandpaper seems to stick to the foam I used when first applied but quickly looses it's grip and falls back off. Gu3ss I'll try a 1/4 plywood without anything on it for flexibility. Sad thing is while it was stuck on the 1/4" plywood plus foam worked really well on the inside curves.

I ended up using the rigid board I had made on the bottom and getting the excess wood flour mixture off the inside of the rubrail.
Hard to see in the picture but with the sharp clean inside corner on the rubrail it is starting to look alot nicer.
20170805_000119.jpg

I have a LOT of sanding and fairing on the inside..... the excess material in the corners sagged and I've got pretty good ridges to knock down and all the wrinkles on the bottom ends from fighting the woven cloth.

If I was to do it again I think it would have been wiser to do the fillets and tapes and let them cured then sanded smooth and applied the extra layer of cloth on the inside.... I could have moved it around easier without worrying about shifting the tapes and fillets underneath.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:04 am
by Fuzz
If you can get some spray adhesive give that a try before you give up on your sanding board.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:06 am
by Jaysen
I was thinking about this... would a couple of layers of Formica laminate, fixed only in the middle, be just about perfect for a fairing board? That would make it extremely flexible on both inside and outside radius

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:41 pm
by cape_fisherman
You want a fairing board to be flexible enough to conform to the hull shape...but no so flexible, or soft, that it "floats" over obstacles. Get one too soft or flexie & you can actually cause more issues than you fix.

I see quite a few made from 1/4" ply, and even some with 1/8" ply (use a soft touch)...1/2" ply makes a good board for flat surfaces.

Attach the handles with a small footprint if making a flexible board...single attachment point...no U shaped, double ended handles.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:57 am
by narfi
Added a swing set to the clubhouse next to the boat factory.
(I think the crookedness is the angle of the camera...... top 4x6 is level)
Dog did it's part and was pulling stumps and roots. It's insane the strength that thing has and perseverance once it starts tugging on something.
20170805_234322.jpg
20170805_161012.jpg
The puzzle mat I cut up is pretty dense foam rubber.
I cut a small block of it today to test sanding inside with and really made some progress with it.
It is stiff enough that it doesn't conform to the low points but is flexible enough I can work it into the fillets between panels.
I wonder if my sticking issues were dust related..... I scratched the surface and wiped it good before putting the paper on and it seemed to stay stuck.... It is folded up good and tight on the sides as well.
20170805_234356.jpg
20170805_234443.jpg

Round two of backyard camping..... Landon didn't last and I was cold this morning took a shower and slept for 3hrs inside.
Tonight we have blankets over our sleeping bags ..... will see how it goes.
20170805_234512.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:18 am
by narfi
Sanded a LOT today... got the inside done enough for its second coat of fairing.
20170806_210218.jpg
20170806_210259.jpg


My back hurts(sanding and sleeping outdoors both....) but I promised Landon one more night in the tent before we pack it up and give the grass some sun.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:22 am
by Jeff
Narfi, good progress!!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:01 am
by narfi
Figured I would give the fairing compound another day even though I think I could have washed it out and been good to sand....

Flipped it over and worked on the underside of the rub rails.... lots of glue had squirted out making a mess and there were a couple spots with small gaps from not clamping evenly or thouraly enough.

I sanded most of the excess glue off and taped up a dam. The thicknesses of the rubrail weren't super even and so I killed two birds with one stone and filled the gaps and evened up the low spots with thinly thickened wood flour/epoxy mix.
20170807_215207.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:38 am
by bigyellowtractor
Looking good. Soon be painting !!!!!!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:34 pm
by narfi
Scrubbed the surface of the fairing material with mild dish water.
20170809_091203.jpg
Once dry I did some more sanding and started playing around with a buddy's powered hand planer. I was pretty scared of tearing big holes or something drastic with it, but after testing on some scrap a bit I was confident and it turned out pretty easy to take very small amounts of material in many passes.

I can't finish with that though as he had been using it on aluminum and the blades are in really bad shape. It will be good enough for roughing out the smoothness and levelness of the top of the rubrail though and I'll finish with the little block plane i have coming from Amazon or just a sanding board before I start into it with the router.

20170809_091233.jpg
20170809_091342.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:04 pm
by Jeff
Narfi, Landon looks great in your HC14!!! Nice photo!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:28 pm
by Eric1
The Pilot seems happy! Boat look nice too! :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:49 am
by narfi
Nothing much to report today other than I am an idiot.......
I have been really fighting sanding inside with the curves and small areas inside radiuses etc..... for the most part I have fallen back to using a 4"x5" foam rubber pad and a lot of elbow grease.
I haven't used the random orbital at all because it seemed to really gouge out too much material way too fast and was destroying the paper pads around the edges really fast any time it hit a corner.

Tonight it struck me......... the 6" orbital pad is a larger flatter surface than the foam rubber pad I've been using......... I turned the speed down.... I had forgotten it had a speed controller and it was on max :( ....... I took of the 36 grit paper and put on a 80 grit one. Wow! With finer paper and slower speed it is amazing and fast and spans the lows between tapes on such a small boat quite easily.

Lesson learned :p

1/2" round over bit arrived today and I played a little with it on a scrap of 2by lumber but want to experiment more before attacking the rub rails with it. Things like doing it in a couple passes instead of grinding the entire radius all off at once will take me a little experimenting before I feel confident. Besides.... I still need to finish planing the top first.

No pictures today.... too ashamed :p

Plan is to finish sanding the interior for this round. Then fit and install the end compartments and breasthooks. I have two 8" water tight screw off hatches comming from Amazon.

Not sure if I want to install the seats this round or after the next round of fairing..... I know I'll have to do a little after they are installed.

Questions.... holes at the ends for handles.... just carve a chunk of lumber to fill the end and epoxy it in, overdrill through it, then fill with thickened epoxy and once cured drill the smaller hole through? Since I am making the hatches water tight I want that to be sealed as well..... right or wrong way of doing it?

How is the yoke attached?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:25 pm
by Fuzz
I am not sure I am following you for the holes but have you thought of using a piece of PVC? Your way sounds like a time consuming deal.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:37 pm
by narfi
Something like BigYellowTractor has in this post,

https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.ph ... 30#p401694

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:10 pm
by bigyellowtractor
I rolled a bit of 20mm conduit in polythene and taped the overlap (but didn't tape the poly to the tube) then on another bit of poly, wetted up a piece of bi-ax that would go a few times round the tube and rolled it on. Then wrapped in poly again and allowed to cure. When cured I just slipped the pipe out and then twisted the poly and it came out easy and clean.

To glue it in the primed, oversize hole, I wedged it central with a couple of bits of plastic and spot welded it. Next day I filleted and glassed the inside, then next day cut the tube flush and sanded it flat to the hull.

I suppose I could have just glued a bit of plastic conduit through the bow but I figured I'd get a better job using similar materials for all. I'll try to get a picture next time I'm at my unit.

I intend to attach my yoke with a couple of 3" screws (stainless/brass or bronze, depending what I put my hands on) through oversized, filled and re-drilled holes in the rub-rail. I will dry-fit then finish the yoke before installation and probably seal/glue it in with some thickened epoxy.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:31 am
by narfi
Thanks for the info. I'll think about it some more.... trying to wrap my head around it all.

The plans show the seats starting 28" from center and extending 9" towa4ds the ends, so the seat is from 28 to 37" from the center.

I set a gallon pail in those locations and say in it tonight. It seems great for the guy in the rear which will usually be me but the front seat seems really close and narrow to the end.

Would it be ok to move the seats 4-5 inches closer to the center?
This would make it roomier for the guy in front and bring the c.f. closer to center when it's Landon and I (240lbs vs 80lbs) I don't think it's a big deal now but he has some lanky friends and over all I think a few extra inches stolen from the middle would work out better if that is acceptable.

What kind of wood is required for the yoke? Is a normal 2x4 ok to use or do I need some special wood? (Sorry I have zero woodworking experience)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:55 am
by Dougster
For the bow and stern holes in my little Plyak I just used packing tape to create a dam, then filled with a big mix of very thick epoxy wood flour, poured in. Quicker than carving a chunk of wood to fit, but uses a lot more epoxy. Also looked ugly, but it was under deck, never-to-be-seen in the Plyak design.

Dougster

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:39 am
by bigyellowtractor
narfi wrote: Thanks for the info. I'll think about it some more.... trying to wrap my head around it all.
No worries. I should get a chance to do a bit on mine this weekend and I'll try to take some pickies for you
narfi wrote: The plans show the seats starting 28" from center and extending 9" towa4ds the ends, so the seat is from 28 to 37" from the center.

I set a gallon pail in those locations and say in it tonight. It seems great for the guy in the rear which will usually be me but the front seat seems really close and narrow to the end.

Would it be ok to move the seats 4-5 inches closer to the center?
This would make it roomier for the guy in front and bring the c.f. closer to center when it's Landon and I (240lbs vs 80lbs) I don't think it's a big deal now but he has some lanky friends and over all I think a few extra inches stolen from the middle would work out better if that is acceptable.
I thought of the same issue. Most of the time this little canoe will just have me in it, one of the reasons I built the 12', but will also be used by me and a nipper, and a rabble of them on their own. I am thinking to offset the seats in such a way that I can change my position depending on use. I might not even fit the seats before first float, but temporarily tack a spreader in place and dummy up a block of foam to try seat positions.

Another option would be to fit a pair of parallel rails at one end and have a moveable seat.
narfi wrote: What kind of wood is required for the yoke? Is a normal 2x4 ok to use or do I need some special wood? (Sorry I have zero woodworking experience)
It doesn't really matter what you use but something with a nice straight grain and not too many knots would be best. Laminating softwood is a way of getting the best out of the crap timber that is supplied these days. Here in the UK we have PAR/PSE softwood in most merchants and if you rummage through a stack you can find a few really nice bits. 2x1 par is about 44mmx22mm finished so if you glued three or four of those together, you'd get a strong and stable lump of stick. If you want to be a bit creative, you could glue a stip of your ply or a dark wood between the layers and clear finish it. That'd look trick.

I've glued together a couple of bits of meranti that I had kicking about for mine.

I've been working in a posh school this week and found a couple of bits of nice old (the school was built in 1908) African Mahogany in a corner. I asked the maintenance chaps if it was going spare and they said I could have it. They're 4' long, 4x4 and 4x2 from some balustrading. Apparently, they threw about 200 similar pieces away when they refurbished the sports hall. :doh:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:30 am
by narfi
Tonight I finished planing the tops of the rub rails to "good enough"
20170811_230057.jpg

then I dug out the router and played with it a little then took a few passes with it at the bottom side of the rubrail.
20170811_230229.jpg
20170811_230142.jpg
Learned (hopefully) a few things. Primarily to be more careful not to gouge out material I want left smooth.......
20170811_230327.jpg
I will try to take another pass at it tomorow removing about 1/8th inch more. This will hopefully remove that gouge and finish off the couple of areas not cleaned out yet underneath.
20170811_230412.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:12 am
by narfi
Finished routing the underside of the rub rails and learned a lesson.....
Even with the depth lock on the adjustment ring vibrates around and changes the depth of the bit. I dug into the side panel a but before I could figure out what was going on...... the worst areas are through the outer layer of plywood but most is just a thumbnail or two. 3/4 of the rail is fine it's just the last 1/4 or so I need to go back and fill.
Also had one more slip and grind on the front point of the rail I will need to fill as well.

20170812_235527.jpg
Rough cut the compartment bulkhead and breasthooks.
20170812_235611.jpg
Gave what will be the insides of the panels a liberal coat of epoxy.
20170812_235901.jpg
Cut and glued the cross prices for the seats.
I decided to move them both 4.5 inches toward the center..... hopefully its a good idea and I don't have to cut it all out later.
20170812_235653.jpg
Decided to go with the damn dam and thickened epoxy for waterproofing where the holes at each end will go for carrying ropes.
20170812_235730.jpg
20170812_235817.jpg
Not shown is the dam that broke and poured epoxy everywhere I didn't want it......

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:50 am
by gonandkarl
Hi,
You are making nice progress and I admire you using a router. I own such a thing ( inherited from my fathers workshop ) but will most probably not learn how to use that thing ever. I used it together with a jig to take material gradually off my centreboard. I was only partially successful and had to work a lot with a rotary sander to make it acceptable.
Keep posting I love looking at all your pictures.
Greetings from Karl

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:59 am
by Dougster
Your dam looks better than the one on my plyak. I had the same leaky damn dam experience you did :) Your build looks fun and I bet she'll be more fu to use.

Dougster

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:41 am
by pee wee
I was worried that technique with the router was going to run into problems, but I didn't have a better idea to offer. Once the rub rail pieces are glued down it's the bottom edges that are tough to smooth up. I'm thinking next time dry fitting them, maybe with positioning dowels, and get the bottom edge in shape while you can still carry pieces to the work bench. There's always another way to do things, that's why you're smart to build the canoe first! Looking good and coming right along. Your seats and how they attach to the sides- will you glue a batten to the hull for extra glue area?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:40 am
by terrulian
Since I did an inwale, the concave curve did not allow for a router, at least anyway I could figure. So I did it by hand, which in my case was OK since the bottom edge is very hard to see without performing contortions.
It's too late now I suppose, but wouldn't a shoulder plane work for the bottom edge?
Beautiful work. I'm sure you'll fill those dings and before long they will fade in memory.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:12 pm
by narfi
Honestly I was very happy with the results of the router.
The uniform height of the rail once the top is planed/shaped/sanded to a fair (to the eye) look and curve is very nice.

Sure I'm learning and made mistakes but nothing that can't be fixed easily and the results look great.

I think that planing the bottom and top each separately would end up with a random hourglass shaped rubrail which would end up bothering my eyes each time I saw it.

Yes. I will have batons glued to the hull for the seats as well. Not sure if this was the best way to start but after staring at it for to long I decided some sort of progress would be better than nothing..... worst case I learn something and cut it off and try again. After which I won't have lost any ground but learned something and perhaps a better idea....

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:28 pm
by bigyellowtractor
Here's (a really crap, sorry) picture of my painter/hanging holes

IMG_7440.JPG

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:32 pm
by narfi
That looks really clean!
Wish you had got a few pictures of your process making the tubes and how they look inside the hull as well :p

I think the dam idea is easier but is very ugly inside (though mostly hidden up under the breasthooks in a closed up compartment.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:41 pm
by bigyellowtractor
narfi wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:32 pm That looks really clean!
Wish you had got a few pictures of your process making the tubes and how they look inside the hull as well :p

I think the dam idea is easier but is very ugly inside (though mostly hidden up under the breasthooks in a closed up compartment.
Sorry, I never take enough pictures of anything. I think the problem is that we are up against time a bit with epoxy and generally covered in the stuff so I'm reluctant to pick up the camera :D

Your little barge is looking very fine. I had a little sit in mine today, I have to say it feels pretty small 8O

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:44 pm
by Jaysen
My thought in rub rail construction for "next time"...

I think I'm going to dry fit and pin the rails. Then, protecting the hull with wax paper glue the entire rail together bent. Once that's set remove the now glued rail from the hull and sand off wax paper. At that point I'd use a fence on a saw or router to perfect width and shape.

For super long rails I'd use "staggered" overlaps to allow the rail to be removed in two or more pieces.

Reinstalling the rail is just gluing it back in to hull.

That's what I'm thinking. But that's a dangerous thing for me to do.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:48 pm
by bigyellowtractor
I cut mine to the shape of the panels when they were flat and planed them up to size. I glued them on making sure that the bottoms were pretty-much spot-on and I only had to shoot off a millimeter here and there to get the top looking sweet. It was very tedious cutting the bits though.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:50 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen it might be dangerous but it sure sounds like a fine idea to me :!: Now if I can just remember it when the time comes :roll:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:50 pm
by narfi
bigyellowtractor wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:41 pm
Your little barge is looking very fine. I had a little sit in mine today, I have to say it feels pretty small 8O
Hehe I have sat in this one a couple times as well (one reason I moved the seats closer to center and a tiny bit lower than in the plans)

I'm 5'10" 240lbs and I am just hoping it's part of the allusion from being up on the blocks on top of the table..... but it feels like I'm perched way up out of it when sitting on a gallon bucket similar height to the seats.....

Will be fun once in the water to see how those fears and reality separate themselves.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:54 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:50 pm Jaysen it might be dangerous but it sure sounds like a fine idea to me :!: Now if I can just remember it when the time comes :roll:
Dangerous how? Honest question.

I don't see it as any different than making a compound curved roller for a granny chair. Or finishing off a steam bent piece. Heck, since the lamination was keyed it should be a bit easier.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:11 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen you said it was dangerous for you to be thinking. My reply was to say your thinking was spot on. I like the idea and hope to remember it when needed :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:14 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:11 pm Jaysen you said it was dangerous for you to be thinking. My reply was to say your thinking was spot on. I like the idea and hope to remember it when needed :D
Doh!

The two of us alone in a room with one door might not be able to get out (if there was a bottle of rum involved woe wouldn't want too). I was convinced you are talikinh about the shaping of the laminated preformed rail. I need to finish unpacking before I post more nonsense.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:18 pm
by narfi
I don't know... I'd have to see it to be able to visualize it comming out perfect.

I like the ideas behind "KISS" and "higher a lazy guy to figure out the most effecient way to do something."

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:34 pm
by Jaysen
I am the lazy guy. Seriously. My approach was to just use thickened epoxy and build up the bottoms of the rail. Anyone looking to point out issues there will expose the target I'll be looking to hit with my foot.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:43 pm
by narfi
I overdrilled the hull into the resin dam so I can fill the plywood with thickened epoxy and drill through just epoxy, all the wood protected.
(you can also see the gouge I put in the rubrail while routing that I need to fill in.
20170814_102811.jpg
I put tape under where the side braces for the seats will go. You can see that the epoxy had leaked out of the gaps on the main braces, so needed to make sure they got filled.
20170814_102738.jpg
I cut the side braces and glued them in with thickened epoxy. (hard to see the clear tape but it did a decent job of keeping the epoxy from running away)
20170814_102841.jpg
There wasnt quite enough scrap left for the second seat, so I cut a little more out of a 4th sheet of plywood.
If I had gone with smaller breasthooks and no compartment bulkheads, and been willing to piece the seats together in 2 peices of plywood each from scraps, There would have been enough plywood in 3 sheets, but I wasn't as careful as I could have been cutting stuff and planning a head, and I did make compartments at each end. So total plywood used will be 3.5 sheets with lots of scraps left over.
20170814_103617.jpg
Once it was mostly cured, I removed the clamps and gave a good coat of epoxy to all sides top and bottom of the braces.
20170813_160904.jpg
20170814_103750.jpg
At the same time I gave a liberal coat of epoxy to the underside of the seats and a second coat to the inside of the compartment panels.
20170814_103719.jpg

All was good until after repeated times telling him NOT to mess with the chip bag on the planer, Landon got it off and dumped over all the fresh epoxy. I was pretty frustrated but....... what can you do? Ill sand off the chips today and give it another coat of epoxy.
20170814_103808.jpg
Took a peak in this morning and all looked good except one side brace had slipped a little, nothing that a little extra thickened epoxy wont fill when putting on the seats though.
20170814_103847.jpg
Lots of little bubbles in the epoxy, what causes that?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:41 am
by narfi
Sanded the chips off the panels and there was still good resin underneath.
I brushed on another coat of resin and installed the seats and compartment bulkheads.
20170814_222848.jpg

Getting better with fillets the more I practice. This was with tounge depresses. Over filled the corners then wiped off the excess with the tounge depressor flush with each panel to remove all excess.
20170814_222944.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:16 am
by cape man
Like the looks of that. 3.5 sheets for a boat is still remarkable. You're learning a lot on this one for the next boat.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:46 am
by Dougster
Your fillets look better than most of mine. I haven't had the bubbles in the epoxy you asked about, but I have read that it can outgas and cause bubbles, esp. if the temp rises after application. It's not a problem there of course, but trying to understand it I wonder if the temp went up significantly before it cured :doh:

Dougster

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:08 pm
by cape man
The bubbles are off-gassing from the wood. Can stop it by putting two thin coats on instead of one thicker. Not a problem. Just lightly sand and touch up those layers with another coat of epoxy. Had the same issue big time when I built the wood gunwales on my OD18, especially along the edges of the strips.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:00 am
by narfi
Pulled the clamps off. The seats seem nice and secure. Will glass them on later but wanted to get the rubrail fixed tonight.....

Testing out the seats
20170815_214001.jpg
Filled the areas adjacent the rub rails where the router dug too deep before I figurefigured out the depth lock was loose. At the same time put what I hope will be a nice radiused fillet along the entire rubrail.
This is where the router had dug in the deepest. It looks good now as long as the epoxy/wood flour doesn't sag any.
20170815_214037.jpg


This is the gouge in the rubrail I overfilled and will shape back to perfection once cured.
20170815_214109.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:26 am
by Eric1
Looking good Narfi!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:47 am
by Jeff
Narfi, looks like Landon is ready to add water!!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:54 pm
by narfi
Question: How does well does marinepoxy bond over the S3 high fill primer and/or the awl grip topcoats?

1. Thinking about getting white in the end compartments before I close them up, but don't want to compromise the epoxy if that is an issue for closing it up.

2. Thinking about sequence once I start painting, would be easier to do the graphite bottom last, would there be any issue with doing that over the primer/topcoat?

Also.... I got the spray hardeners for my paint because I intend to spray it, but would there be any issue with brushing it in the compartments since it wont be very visible anyways?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:11 pm
by Eric1
narfi wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:54 pm Question: How does well does marinepoxy bond over the S3 high fill primer and/or the awl grip topcoats?
I know it will bond to the S3 primer, I don't know about the awlgrip.
1. Thinking about getting white in the end compartments before I close them up, but don't want to compromise the epoxy if that is an issue for closing it up. Why not just run a taped off border and pull it after paint?

2. Thinking about sequence once I start painting, would be easier to do the graphite bottom last, would there be any issue with doing that over the primer/topcoat?
Same answer as question one.
Also.... I got the spray hardeners for my paint because I intend to spray it, but would there be any issue with brushing it in the compartments since it wont be very visible anyways?
Just test a small batch to see how it acts. I'm guessing it will tend to set up quicker than a brushing hardener/activator.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:24 pm
by TomW1
Marinepoxy will bond the S3 High build primer, no problem as S3 is epoxy based. It will not bond with any paint and will peel off over time.

Personally I would graphite the bottom first. That way if you got some paint on it you would not have a problem.

I agree with Eric test a small batch as spray paints normally are usually designed to dry faster.

Tom

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:26 am
by narfi
Thanks for the advice guys, will plan accordingly.

The sealed twist out hatches came. Need to figure out how to make 8" holes now....
20170816_233506.jpg
Sanded the excess glue off the sides of the seats and sanded to tops off flush with the braces. (I had about an 1/8" overhang by intent so I could do this)
20170816_233302.jpg
I got more practice with the router and rounded over the tops and bottoms of the seats.
You can see I couldn't get to the edges so needed to profile them by hand.
20170816_233335.jpg

Tools I used for working into the corners. Jason should be proud of the one.... :p
20170816_233408.jpg
It turned out ok I think. The very corners weren't perfect but good enough to fill with a new radius.
20170816_233440.jpg

Cut out 4oz cloth for the seat tops and used sharpie to mark alignment when putting it back down. Cut the tapes for the seats and compartment bulkheads. This used the very last of the 50yard roll I had bought. Almost exactly enough.... the inside of one compartment was a little short but not bad.
20170816_233527.jpg

Mixed wood flour glue and filleted the insides of the compartments and a little more on the seat edges to hull and corners to hull, then epoxied the tapes for the seats and bulkheads, then layed down the 4oz cloth on the seats and settled them out. They rolled under the seats pretty nicely over the rounded over radiuses I made.
20170816_233618.jpg
20170816_233722.jpg
Temps were cool and rainy...... I think I ended up using alot more epoxy than otherwise because it was cool and not flowing easily with a brush. In the future for "larger" projects like that I will try to heat the bottles first I think.
20170816_233633.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:53 pm
by Jaysen
49F is winter temperatures! No idea how you guys stand that up there.

Looks great. When do you plan to launch it?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:46 pm
by narfi
Jaysen wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:53 pm 49F is winter temperatures! No idea how you guys stand that up there.

Looks great. When do you plan to launch it?
When its done I guess.....
There is a saying I read a lot when studying homebuilt aircraft, 90% done, 90% to go.

I don't know what I am doing, and have no expectations. Just trying to do as much as I can each night after work and hopefully I will wake up one morning and it will be done.

Things I know I still need to do,
  • Yoke.... I dragging my feet on this one because I have trouble visualizing what I want or how to do it. I really just need to do it and be done with it....
  • Cut the 8" holes for the water tight hatches, seal the exposed plywood, overdrill the mounting holes and fill them with thickened epoxy and redrill to the proper size.
  • Cut and glue batons around the tops of the compartments.
  • Prime and paint in the compartments.
  • Glue the tops on the compartments. (havent decided if I will put 4oz over the compartments or not, I probably will since I have everything else so far.)
  • Finish shaping the ends of the rubrails and the overfilled gouge repair.
  • Round over the 3 sharp corners of the rubrail and compartment bulkheads then seal the exposed plywood.
  • At least one more round of fairing and sanding inside, possibly one more outside.
  • A very very thoural cleaning of the boat and work area.
  • Determine how high up the sides I want the graphite and tape and mask for that.
  • Roll the graphite bottom on as many coats as to be determined. (3?)
  • Sand edges of graphite if needed?
  • Tape and mask off the graphite and prime the entire boat in and out.
  • Paint White inside and rubrails down low enough to mask for lettering.
  • Mask "Landon Reed" in 3" letters below the rubrail at each end. (should that be on the left or right when looking at the side? or should it be on all 4 ends?) Mask the Radioactive symbol on the tops of the compartments. (Landons favorite song for sometime has been Radioactive by Imagine Dragons) (I need to order the mask for the lettering and symbols, but keep forgetting)
  • Paint the outside red, paint the masked symbols red, probably seats and yoke red as well to break up the pure (off)white interior.
  • Remove all the tape and masking and cry about the blemishes.
  • Glue and screw in the waterproof hatches.
  • Launch!
  • (Still want to build paddles, but not sure if I will fit that in or not)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:37 pm
by Jeff
Nice temp Narfi!! About 92 here and must be 110 in my warehouse!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:14 pm
by BB Sig
Looking good! Keep eating one bite at a time. 8)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:28 pm
by narfi
Thanks,


narfi wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:46 pm
  • Mask "Landon Reed" in 3" letters below the rubrail at each end. (should that be on the left or right when looking at the side? or should it be on all 4 ends?) Mask the Radioactive symbol on the tops of the compartments. (Landons favorite song for sometime has been Radioactive by Imagine
Been thinking about this, and will do Each side at the same end, that way there is some sort of identification on which end is which as it is nearly perfectly symmetrical. (would be nice to have a way of identifying which end I put my lunch in o.0 )

Ordered 2 sets of paint masks for the lettering 2" tall, and two for the radioactive symbol with a ring around it 6" diameter today.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:06 am
by narfi
Dug through the scrap pile of 2x4s and found the straightest least knotty piece I could find and using random round objects and strait edges drew a yoke pattern on it.

Went to my boss's father in laws who is an old woodcrafter but his shop is getting in floor hear and all his tools are in storage. He has a little saw that worked though and we rough cut out the shape I had drawn.

Once back at the boat factory Landon wanted to put the puzzle back together again :p
20170817_224815.jpg
As you can see it was quite rough.
20170817_224845.jpg
Used the orbital sander to get the edges fairly flat and rounded the curves and flattened the straits. Then used the 1/2" round over bit in the router to round over all 4 sides.

I surprised myself how nice it turned out.

20170817_224938.jpg
After this picture I did a bit more hand sanding and smoothed out the little ridges and bumps. It is ready to get sealed, sanded sealed again and installed.

What support should it have for installing? Was thinking maybe an inch or so of plywood "trim" on the hull around it to spread the glue surface.... it's kind of a small awkward shape for cloth or tape.... how do most people attach them?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:59 am
by bigyellowtractor
Looking good !!!

I would think if you glued and filleted your yoke, it'd be fine but I'm sure with your glassing skills, you could get a little bi-ax tape to conform nicely just for a belts and braces job.

I have left my yoke wider where it will attach so I can screw it in two places to counter any rotational forces as I chuck the boat about. Be honest though how often will you be popping yours on your shoulders and lugging it about single-handed ?

Looking forward to seeing you painting

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:09 am
by cape man
The yoke may be the one place (other than your hatches) where you use some hardware, and put screws in from the outside. Overdrill, fill with epoxy and redrill for screws. Glue it on the insides. If the rubrail is where the screws hit, you can counter sink them and then fill over the heads and no one will know but us. Use stainless.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:19 pm
by narfi
Landon was having some fun with the yoke before installing it :)
20170819_080803.jpg
Decided to "just" glue it in and fillet it. Will enlarge the fillets once it is secure and put one or two layers of tape around to the hull.

20170819_080845.jpg
The bows rise up a bit so I couldn't use straight batons for securing the compartment tops. I cut them in 4 peices each side and that took care of the problem.

20170819_080917.jpg
20170819_080950.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:11 pm
by TomW1
Looking good Narfi, that is some helper you have there. For drilling the hole for your hatch there are hole drills that will do that for you https://woodworker.com/38-1-6-circlewhe ... archmode=2 The largest of these will go out to 7 7/8". I don't know what your opening size is or you can use a jig saw carefully.

Tom

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:24 pm
by narfi
Got up this morning and brought the epoxy inside and put in a tote of got water in the bathtub.

While it was heating up I fried up a pan of sausage and bacon and eggs and refried beans. Great way to start a Saturday morning!

Then took the resin back out to the boat factory and coated the yoke and compartment batons.

Sky's are clear and sunny so hoping to get the tent baking today:)
20170819_100744.jpg
20170819_100808.jpg
20170819_100851.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:01 pm
by narfi
TomW1 wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:11 pm Looking good Narfi, that is some helper you have there. For drilling the hole for your hatch there are hole drills that will do that for you https://woodworker.com/38-1-6-circlewhe ... archmode=2 The largest of these will go out to 7 7/8". I don't know what your opening size is or you can use a jig saw carefully.

Tom
haha, those things scare me!
We have a circle cutter at work I will try to find, works like a compese as well, but the drill is on the outside going around a pivot point. Will take pictures if i find it and it is big enough. 7 3/4 is minimum hole size, but 8" would be ideal.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:31 pm
by bigyellowtractor
It would have been easier to cut the hole with a jigsaw before fitting the bulkhead but if you draw your circle and drill a few holes around the perimeter, a padsaw or keyhole saw will do a decent enough job that a fettle with some sandpaper or a half-round bastard would sort.

You can get blades that go in a stanley knife; search "Stanley - 1275B Saw Blade For Wood"

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:30 pm
by narfi
Brought the hole cutter home from work and cut the compartment hatch holes. They looked a little rough after cutting but it was an illusion, touched it with 80 grit block and it looked great.
20170820_101212.jpg
20170820_101152.jpg
20170820_101251.jpg
20170820_101508.jpg
20170820_101447.jpg
20170820_101351.jpg

20170820_101418.jpg


Flipped it over and sanded the fillets under the rub rails.
Routed the bottom corner of the rubrail with 3/8" round over and sanded with a foam rubber 80grit block.

Decided I would do an idiot test on priming.....

Rough sanded the inside of the compartments certainly not perfect but knocked most of the sharp edges down....

Pulled it out and rinsed it off in and out, esp the end compartments.

Brought it back in and mopped out all the water with a sponge. Then dried the compartments with a paper towel.

It wasn't completely dry but the s3 primer can be thinned with water so hopefully not too big an issue.... part of the "idiot" test.

Taped the edges of the top panels and the tops of the batons in the compartments. Tape wasn't sticking too well because it was still damp.

Mixed 4oz to 1oz of primer, it is THICK. Specs say not to apply under 50f, it was 56f through the night.
Brushed it on with a cheap chip brush....
20170820_100814.jpg
20170820_103707.jpg


20170820_102000.jpg
20170820_101701.jpg
20170820_101848.jpg
20170820_101740.jpg

Checked this morning and it's still wet. Only 55f it says fully cured in 24hours at 77f........
Rained all night and not much evaporating going on, there was still water on other parts of the boat.
I think I applied it too thickly as it had pooled in the bottoms a bit and the pigment separated some in the "pools" however it did make a nice smooth bottom surface :p

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:35 pm
by Jaysen
I managed to successfully apply S3. You'll be fine. Just give it time. If possible add heat to the primed material. Warm the wood and you'll warm the primer.

Although, I'm not sure you Alaska people understand what heat is...

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:29 pm
by TomW1
Narfi that is one heck of a nice hole drill. :D

Tom

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:59 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:35 pm Although, I'm not sure you Alaska people understand what heat is...
Sure we do..................anything over 50f is dad blame hot :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:50 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:59 pm
Jaysen wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:35 pm Although, I'm not sure you Alaska people understand what heat is...
Sure we do..................anything over 50f is dad blame hot :lol:
I looked over at the wife while we were sitting on the deck at noon. Noticed the thermometer was 92ish. Also noticed she was wearing a sweater. At 50 she stays in bed with the electric blanket on high.

I'd say she's got a broken thermostat but I'm looking for my own blanket at about 40. Apparently some of us Yankees were supposed to be crackers.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:14 am
by narfi
Landon has been outside in just a t-shirt playing well below 0f.... drives his mother crazy. "I don't need a coat, I'm Alaskan boy!"

55f and raining I caught him at the playground in just shorts, no shirt or shoes soaking wet and covered in mud, having a blast. Asked where his shirt Was, "It was muddy so I took it off, it's not cold"

I sanded the ridges off the tapes holding the seats and compartment bulkheads. Sanded the epoxy drips off the bottom of the yoke. Sanded the edges of the 4oz cloth wrapped under the seats where it wasn't laid down perfectly.(tops and sides are good, just the edge of the cloth underneath had a ridge to sand)

Built up a large fillet of wood flour mix around the yoke, then epoxied in two layers of 12oz tape. The first layer about 1/2 the width of the outer layer you see in the picture. I'll sand the top off flush once it's cured. I think this should be plenty strong for holding it on place.
20170821_005720.jpg
I mixed up some fairing compound and applied it to the seat tops and attachment areas as well as around the bulkheads and hopefully the last layer on the floor.
I mixed it thinner this time and used a brush in some places and the spreader in others. I think the brush will work well with thin fairing in spots as I get closer to finished.

I know the air bubbles aren't as big a deal on a non planing boat.... buy they have been bugging me. I attacked them with an exacto knife tonight and got one side done. Picture is of the worst area.
20170821_005844.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:39 am
by narfi
My wife came out and helped me tonight.
We finished attacking all the air bubbles with x-acto knives then brushed it off really well.

Mixed thin mix of filler, thin enough we could brush it into the bottoms if all the holes we cut out then as a batch was starting to kick and thicken up we would dab the the thicker mix over the filled craters turning the concave spots convex.
20170821_222925.jpg
The primer in the bottoms of the compartments is still soft. The top panels are the driest so I did a test I read in the literature. I dipped my finger in water then rubbed a primed area, it did soften it slightly but not much.

Lesson learned.... the primer is water thinned however you shouldn't apply it on a wet surface at 55f and 100% humidity....... :p

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:48 am
by Eric1
That was a lot of fill but you'll be glad you did it! :)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:57 am
by Jeff
Narfi, fully agree with Eric that you will be very happy that you took the time to do this when completed!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:42 pm
by Fuzz
If your weather is like mine, rain non stop the past week, I am not surprised the primer is not fully dry yet. :cry:
Good thing is one nice day in your shed and it will be dry.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:45 pm
by narfi
Fuzz wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:42 pm If your weather is like mine, rain non stop the past week, I am not surprised the primer is not fully dry yet. :cry:
Good thing is one nice day in your shed and it will be dry.
Yeah its been a cold wet summer :/
Atleast I had that nice week when I first started the project :)

Was beautiful last night about 1am, did a late oil change on the generators and was walking home, the sky was clear and stary, the air was still not too cold since we did have sun yesterday. Love moments like those.

This morning though after a clear night was cold though, down into the 30s.... first day this fall my bare hands have gotten cold on the 4wheeler driving to work.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:47 pm
by Jaysen
I could never live up there. I guess I've gotten soft as I've gotten old.

If you have an electric space heater it would help the primer dry.

Or you could move to a more reasonable climate :p

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:51 am
by narfi
Finally a sunny day. Got home and the tent had finally done some baking.
20170823_004136.jpg
Decided to test out the yoke. It seems strong and the attachment to the hull seems strong. Was awkward getting it up on my shoulders but once up was easy to cary around. Realized afterwards I didn't need to lift the whole thing up.... just one end and then stand under it while one end is still on the ground..... tried that way and was quite easy.
20170823_004304.jpg

Did a lot of sanding inside, around the yoke attachment, seat attachment, and general fairing.

Put the first coat of paint in the compartments. It brushed easily even with the spray activator.
20170823_004215.jpg
Like I said before.... the prime and paint in the compartments is my idiot test. The dampest of the compartments for primer had dried completely but not cured 100% I could still dig a fingernail into it as well as soften it with a wet finger. Will see if I get any reaction between it and the Awlgrip

Finished at 12.40am

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:46 pm
by narfi
Got up before work and put another coat of paint in the compartments and glued the tops down.
20170823_103620.jpg
That's almost it for structure.
Going to put a layer of 4oz over the compartments and then it's just fairing to finish and bits and pieces like rounding over the rub rails etc.....

My paint experiments in the compartments were just to see how much you could stretch the rules..... for the rest of the painting I will be spraying and following the rules..... I hope....

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:27 am
by bigyellowtractor
Looking good Narfi

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:00 am
by narfi
Compartment top glue wasn't ready to sand yet so I flipped it over and sanded off the spot fairing We had put on the outside. Then touched up the spots we had missed. I think this is the last to go on the outside. (I hope)
20170823_235415.jpg
So what ratio do you mix the graphite?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:39 am
by gonandkarl
Hi,
I used on my FS13 and on the AD14 a ratio of one third of mixed resin in weight like when I made 155 grams of mixed resin I put in 55 grams of graphite powder. Seeing that you have problems with the temperature up there in Alaska try to do it on the hottest day still coming and mix epoxy and graphite inside the house where you got it for sure warmer. As Cracker Larry once said you cannot mix hot chocolate powder in cold milk the same goes for graphite powder in epoxy. Maybe someone on the forum can give you advise how to warm epoxy. Good luck with the graphite application.
Greetings from Karl

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:09 pm
by narfi
Thanks Karl.
Do you know what that ratio would be by volume?

Temps are a concern.
I was planning on heating the epoxy in hot water before mixing then going over the surface with a hot air gun right after application.... air temp probably 60-70f

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:40 pm
by Fuzz
I think you might want to add some form of heat to the shop. It is looking like the next warm day will be in 2018 :cry:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:53 pm
by Eric1
Narfi, I've been doing my graphite with morning temps around 70-72. It really rolls fine at that temp. I am counting on it to warm up through the day to cure overnight. We have been 88-91 degrees in the afternoon. I can understand you warming your epoxy and I agree with Fuzz about warming the shop too. Best of luck! :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:44 am
by narfi
I sanded the excess glue around the compartment tops and got them smooth and flush with the rub rails.
20170824_223151.jpg
Then I used the router to round over the rub rails in and out. Pictures don't do it justice, I am really happy with the fully rounded over tops.
20170824_200455.jpg
20170824_223333.jpg
Glasses the outside of the compartments tops and bulkheads with 4oz. Then put the first epoxy coat over all the bare wood on the rub rails.
20170824_223413.jpg
If weather doesn't change I am probably going to have to take it to work and paint it.... still thinking about heating options for the tent :/

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:42 am
by Fuzz
I keep my shop at 60f when glassing. The epoxy has always been good to go after sitting over night.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:45 am
by gonandkarl
Unfortunately I do not know the graphite epoxy ratio by volume but I can try to guess from what I remember when I mixed it in a small yoghurt plastic cup.
I think it was about the same volume as the mixed resin. 6 ounces of mixed resin with roughly 15 small plastic spoons full of graphite powder. Full means to scoop it up with the spoon and because the graphite powder is so fine that there will be no heap on the spoon because it runs off its side the same as micro balloons. Hopefully this will help you.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:18 am
by cape man
I used 25% graphite by volume.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:11 pm
by narfi
Got up this morning and put a layer of fairing compound over the fresh glass.
My Bondo scrapers aren't as smooth as when I started the project..... starting to leave grooves....... Will want to buy extras when I start the big boat.
Put a second coat of epoxy on the rubrail and used left over fairing compound to fill a couple small voids.

20170825_103523.jpg


When you say 25% do you mean 25% of the epoxy? (4parts epoxy 1 part graphite) or do you mean 25% of the total? (3 parts epoxy 1 part graphite)

Either way the difference between your ratio and Karl's 50/50 is significantly different..... what are the advantages and disadvantages to going heavy on graphite or light on graphite in the mix?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:28 pm
by cape man
1/4 graphite, 3/4 epoxy. Don't know advantages over that and Karl's recipe, but that's what the Cracker told me to use. Sift the graphite and add the epoxy to it while stirring much like making a batter. 8 years later it's still slick and hard as ...well graphite, mixed with epoxy.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:33 pm
by Jaysen
In my world it was volume.

2 units of resin, 1 hardener, 1 graphite.

My previous "1/3" statement was forgetting the one cup was 2 units. I check documents just now and it was 25%.

I did use less epoxy in later layers (documented). Doc says "per CL" but I have no backup to say CL said to do it that way. I'm planning to flip the boat this weekend so I'll look for wear and report. My guess is I will be unhappy.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:39 am
by gonandkarl
Hi,
Please forget my guessing of volume and adhere to Capemans and Jaysens suggestion of 25 % graphite. They are for sure right and I can only speak for the weight ratio 33 % graphite that I used. Your boat will be really nice. I have one question about your bow hatch. Is it suggested on the plan to make the hole for it on the vertical bulkhead or did you decide this. I made my hatch hole of the FS13 on the bow deck and have not got it yet 100 % watertight. I should have made it like you I guess and not as I saw it on the FS13 study plan.
Greetings from Karl

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:19 pm
by narfi
There is no hatch suggested or recommended for the hc14. It is supposed to just have small breasthooks to keep it light.

I decided to add the compartments at the cost of more weight and also moved the seats 4.5inches closer to the center because of that.

What problems do you have with keeping it water tight? I purchased screw out hatches and they have a foam gasket that seems it will seal quite well. I just need to make sure I glue the ring and screw holes very well.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:19 pm
by gonandkarl
I just need to make sure I glue the ring and screw holes very well.
That is my problem I did not use any glue just screws and now I know how to get it watertight.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:54 pm
by bigyellowtractor
gonandkarl wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:19 pm
I just need to make sure I glue the ring and screw holes very well.
That is my problem I did not use any glue just screws and now I know how to get it watertight.
I was thinking I'd just run a bead of sanitary silicone around the rebate on the hatch frame before fitting and a little blob in each mounting hole. That way the hatch should be getoutable if need be in the future without any destruction.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:02 pm
by narfi
We have some marine sealant at work for aircraft float repairs. I'll probably borrow/buy a little of that.

I think it's this stuff but can't remember for sure....
http://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/a ... 048&rt=rud

It's a good simi-permenant adhesive that cures even in moisture but I have peeled old aluminum patches off before so it's not Permenant Permenant.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:57 pm
by Browndog
Epoxy in the screw holes to seal the wood and 3M 5200 on the screws is how I did my round hatches on my canoe bulkheads.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:22 am
by bigyellowtractor
Narfi, that looks just the ticket.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:26 am
by narfi
Didn't get much done so far this weekend.
Had some friends over and we watched an Irish guy and a strip club owner punch each other in the face for a bit.

First PPV I ever bought and I wasn't disappointed. Don't think either of the fighters were either, both walked out with their heads held high.

Going to wash the anime blush off the compartments and rub rails tonight then start the final sanding push tomorow.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:30 am
by narfi
Last night I finished sanding inside. Sanded the rub rails. Drilled and overdrilled the mounting holes for the hatches then filled them with thickened epoxy. Touched up two or three voids on the rub rails as well.

Tonight I finished sanding the outside and the bottoms of the rub rails.
Swept everywhere, sat the canoe to the side and swept the table and removed the blocks. Sat the canoe upright in the table without blocks and using a 2x4 block as a guide I drew a pencil line around the base of the bottom where the graphite line will be.
I had thought I would borrow a laser when taping for the graphite but this was a simple and easy way I found googling around in the dark corners of the internet.
Turned it back over and placed on blocks again and washed it with mild dish water and a scotch brite pads and rinced well with fresh water.

Tomorow I will borrow a Herman Nelson heater and cook myself out while taping and masking. Then roll the first coat of graphite. 6oz of resin with 2oz of graphite powder sound like enough for one coat on the bottom of this 14ft canoe?

Say I do one coat tomorow night with it 90f in the tent then 8hrs later fire up the heater again while rating breakfast and give it a second coat.... will I need to pull the masking tape and reapply or will it be ok through both coats?
20170829_001834.jpg
20170829_001921.jpg
As you can see from all the brown dots.... I had a LOT of air bubbles I cut out and filled. I will be paranoid and asking lots of questions about how to prevent this before I start the fs17.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:10 am
by Jaysen
Pulling tape makes things "cleaner". Less buildup at the graphite to paint transition. Sharper lines. Remember to pull tape before 100% setup. The graphite should the set but not hard.

If you leave the tape for all three coats the worst would be a large ridge and a bit of difficulty pulling the tape.

All depends on if you want an "Eric" or "Jaysen" level of finish :)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:30 am
by Eric1
Jaysen wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:10 am Pulling tape makes things "cleaner". Less buildup at the graphite to paint transition. Sharper lines. Remember to pull tape before 100% setup. The graphite should the set but not hard.

If you leave the tape for all three coats the worst would be a large ridge and a bit of difficulty pulling the tape.

All depends on if you want an "Eric" or "Jaysen" level of finish :)
My advice is to pull the tape as soon as you can. You will get a much cleaner line that way. If you wait for all three coats you will need a razor blade in hand to separate the tape from the epoxy. I pulled the tape right after I had coated the bottom. At the transom The graphite had leeched under my tape a little. Since my epoxy was wet I had no problem wiping it clean with a little lacquer thinner. best of luck with your wet out. :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:56 am
by Jaysen
Eric hit it. I did mine with a combo pull no pull. Pull looks better. And it's easier to make look better.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:15 pm
by bigyellowtractor
Oops, I rolled mine onto the chine with the intention to either paint over it to a boot line or maybe over the whole bottom. Have I caused myself a problem ? I had assumed I could paint over epoxy-graphite :oops:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:38 pm
by Jaysen
You can. You'll want to prime it just like the rest of the in graphite hull.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:08 am
by narfi
I borrowed a heater but it had a cracked fuel line and couldn't get it primed. Took it back and borrowed another and after some fiddling and got it going. Temps in the tent went from low 60s to high 70s registered on the thermometer mounted to one of the wall braces. I'm guessing I'm the middle of the room was mid 80s.

Set the epoxy bottles 2ft in front of the heater outlet and was happy with how thin it got.

Taped the line I marked last night then mixed 4 pumps of resin, 2 of medium hardner and 4 heaped plastic spoons of graphite. (I measured spoon volume beforehand and 4 heaped scoops was just over 2oz)
20170829_230454.jpg
Then peeled the edge tape off before it could cure.
20170829_230146.jpg
20170829_230244.jpg
I was happy with it before I pulled the tape. But after pulling it the chine looks wavey and I see high spots of fairing that I could have sanded better.

I'll proceed as planned... It's the bottom after all. I fear I'll end up doing alot more sanding after my first coat of primer on the top :/

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:26 am
by Eric1
Your graphite looks good and the tape lines came out clean. Carry on!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:40 am
by Jeff
Well done Narfi!! Looks great!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:13 am
by bigyellowtractor
Looking sweet Narfi.

Jaysen, thanks for the confirmation that I haven't made a balls up !!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:32 am
by Browndog
Yesterday, my wife and I went kayaking on the lake and enjoyed a beautiful late summer day with almost no wind and perfect temperatures.

The sun was shining and I kept seeing all the flaws in my craftsmanship as we paddled. A varnish holiday here, an epoxy drip there, a bubble, a place where I sanded through the glass. Despite the fact that I enjoyed the ride and the kayaks performed perfectly, it made feel like I could have done better.

After painting all the flaws show up and even after careful work and double and triple checking makes it hard to stomach when small defects are found.

It is hard to accept the fact that most people will never see the things you do and after even a modicum of use there will be scratches, scrapes and dings that provide a patina to your boat that shows it is being lovingly used as intended.

I admire the care and diligence that you and the other craftsmen put into their projects. No doubt your canoe will turn out to be a showpiece.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:02 pm
by narfi
Thanks for the feedback guys :)
I went into this project knowing it wouldn't be perfect but that doesn't seem to be as easy to remember as it should........ I'm learning and it's the "practice boat"..... I still want it to look good though with the 2 months of time into it.

Got up this morning and light off the heater again, made breakfast and drank some coffee. Then went out and re-taped the lines and rolled the second coat on. Was only 15min late to work...... About normal :p

You can see how I was heating the epoxy in the last picture.

20170830_113507.jpg
20170830_113530.jpg
20170830_113555.jpg
20170830_113617.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:35 pm
by Jeff
Nice heater set-up Narfi!! HC14 looking good!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:58 am
by narfi
Put the third coat of graphite on and pulled the tape and paper.
I'm satisfied with it. Dead bug lumps got bigger each coat but overall it looks pretty good for the side of the boat no one looks at.

Heating off and on.... will see if I'm confidant enough to turn it over tomorow night.....
20170830_215556.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:21 am
by bigyellowtractor
Looking good Narfi. Nearly there, eh ?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:04 am
by Jeff
Nice work Narfi!!!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:04 am
by Jeff
Nice work Narfi!!!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:03 pm
by narfi
Temps this morning before breakfast.....
20170831_080137.jpg
Ran the heater for 40 minutes and heading to work.... will see if Landon can go out mid day and run it another 30-40 minutes.

Hopeful it will be cured enough to set it on tonight.....

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:54 pm
by Eric1
Dang! Y'all get cool quick up there! Good thing you were able to borrow that heater. It's looking good Narfi. :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:10 pm
by TomW1
Looking good Narfi.

Tom

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:27 am
by gonandkarl
The boat looks really nice, my no name Epoxy cures above 50 degree Fahrenheit but it cures quicker and better if it is at the ideal 68.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:54 am
by narfi
Landon has discovered the joy of sharpening sticks with a pocket knife :p
20170831_232145.jpg
My wife helped me flip the canoe over. Set it on paper draped around foam pads just in case there was still any softness to the graphite and epoxy.

Sanded the last fill slots on the rubrail and sanded and drilled the holes for the hatches.
20170831_233549.jpg

Cleaned it well and blew it all out. Then taped and masked the graphite bottom.
20170831_232209.jpg
Sprayed the primer......
The good:
I am happy with the fairing. Everythin looks smooth no bad high or low spots.
20170831_232245.jpg

20170831_232334.jpg
The bad:
Quite a few spots like this.
A couple small voids in the rubrail.
Quite a few small holes on the edges of the tapes. Is this what is referred to as pinholes?
20170831_232452.jpg
20170831_232609.jpg
More bad:
It looks great from 5ft. If I hadn't run it so bad I would probably call it good enough.
The primer is much thicker than anything I've sprayed before and it took me a while to get the gun set up right. The instructions call for up to 20% thinning with 50/50 alcohol/water or just pure water. I thinned 20% with the 50/50 mix and it was still too thick. I ended up nearly spackle coating the first coat and it was dry in spots and running in spots. Terrible!

I turned the heater on and went inside for an hour and came back out and sprayed a much more heavily thinned batch and was able to turn the paint flow down and air flow up to the gun and that is how I got the "good" looking pictures above.

It hid some of the runs but they are still there and pretty bad. There is also the issue of all the little holes.....

What should I do?
In the morning I'll see if the left over primer is still wet and brush it into the voids and holes.... good idea or bad?

Then once the primer is fully cured can I wet sand it with a higher grit successfully? Or will the runs require something more aggressive? They are big and plentiful :/

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:19 am
by Eric1
Hi Buddy,
The boat is looking good. Thanks for sharing about spraying primer. I've never done it but I plan to learn when it's time to prime the inside of my build. If this is the S3 high build primer dry sanding is fine. It sands easily so go easy with 80 grit on runs. I used 120 and had no problems getting it smooth. I found a butt load of pin holes too. Amazing the way primer makes every flaw jump out at you. Anyway, I filled my pin holes with quick fair. The old primer trick you mentioned did not work well for me. Other than cure time in the refrigerator y'all live in it will go quick. Keep up the good work! :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:24 am
by narfi
Yes it is the s3 yacht primer with the spray hardner.
I don't have quick fair, just been using the fairing mix from the guys here at BBC.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:49 am
by Fuzz
When you get to the bigger boat spring for some quickfair. You will be kicking yourself for not having it for this build.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:56 am
by pee wee
There are so many variables when it comes to spraying that when something doesn't go right it can take some detective work, it's possible your equipment isn't up to handling the proper viscosity . . or it could be something else. It may be better in your case to apply with a roller, that's what most builders use and get good results.

It's the moment of truth when you first apply primer over fairing, even Eric1 found (tiny) flaws on his hull. I'd say don't worry about it, but if you want to practice for the next boat it's a manageable thing to do- quit when it stops being fun. Those pinholes can be pesky, one builder found a 3M product that worked well for filling them, I think sometimes another coat of primer will fill them. I recall at least one builder got out a dremel and opened them up so they would fill better; that would be a pain for sure.

I wonder if there is a way to avoid creating bubbles in the first place, I guess when mixing fairing compound the bubbles are mixed right in. When pouring resins I've put them under vacuum to get the air out, but something as thick as fairing putty might not behave the same way. Maybe someone else has experience with that.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:22 pm
by bigyellowtractor
Narfi,

Curved surfaces and lots of corners/edges aren't easy to spray at the best of times.

You may be fighting a losing-battle trying to spray a water thinned paint in variable temperatures and humidity. You might get lucky though.

Let it dry, flat it off, and try again.

Can you do some test spraying on a sealed bit of ply, old door, or something ?
Spraying onto polythene sheet stretched over a board might give you a similar surface to epoxy. You could even drape some over the boat to practice.

Try spraying the lightest coat you can; almost just a dusting, and let that kick. I find that helps prevent runs.

Don't forget though, this canoe is your practice piece after all so all the learning you do at this scale will pay dividends on the next boat.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:52 pm
by narfi
Some googling found someone else came to the same conclusion as I did.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread. ... ost1603598
Chris wrote: My first attempt to spray the primer resulted in another frustrating afternoon. Using a Lex-Aire 2002 HVLP gun with a 1 mm nozzle and needle, I could not get enough volume of material through the gun even with the primer thinned to the point I was getting runs and sags.

My last attempt worked very well. The nozzle and needle were changed to 1.6 mm and I thinned with 50/50 water-Isopropyl Alcohol in gradual stages until I got good results. The final amount of thinning was 43% water/IA of the Part B + Activator. In other words, mix the Part B and Activator, multiply that volume times .43 and you will have the approximate volume of thinner. The thinned primer had a viscosity of 30 sec. #2 Zahn cup. The 1.6 mm nozzle is for viscosities between 20 and 26 sec. for my gun. This gun is used with a compressor, BTW.

Hope this will save others some time and, maybe, frustration when spraying this material.

Chris

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:06 am
by narfi
Did some googling today and found similar findings for s3 primer. It needs to be thinned a lot more for spraying. I was happy with the second coat I did last night so plan to proceed as planned.

I mixed epoxy with just enough fairing compound to color it, not to overly thicken it. Then brushed it into all the pinholes.

My thought was I wanted it thin enough to work into the holes but the color so I would know where to sand.

I did it in 1.5oz batches heated thin before mixing. Some waste with the medium kicking before each batch was applied but not much. Wow heat makes a big difference in work time :p
20170901_205702.jpg
I had intended to wipe the drips off once done since I only need the holes filled but it had already started gelling so I left it.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:55 am
by bigyellowtractor
Solutions found, problems solved and moving towards completion. Well done Sir.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:06 am
by Jeff
Yes Narfi, really well done!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:55 pm
by narfi
Slept in for once :)
Went out and filled the areas where epoxy had dripped out of the pinholes from last night. I used straight epoxy with fast hardner. Maybe 1/10 of them needed re filling and all had the color of the filler from last night so no need to mark them again just fill and wait.

Got another 5gal of diesel for the heater..... this last push is going to be expensive......

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:54 am
by narfi
I blame Eric. I think it is a sickness :(

Sanded the inside this afternoon and tonight. Flipped it over and got one chine panel sanded. Still 2 sides and a chine left to sand. Got tired at 12.30 and came in and showered and heading to bed....
20170904_004939.jpg
Found one palm sized area I need to fill pinholes in on the chine so far but I think the inside and rubrail are good. Almost mixed up a little tonight to fill the spot on the chine buy I'm sure I'll find a few more before I'm ready to prime again.....

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:50 am
by Eric1
:lol: You doing fine. Let the dust flow through you...

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:14 am
by cape man
At some point, soon, you will say, "enough ". Until then, looking good! 8)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:25 am
by narfi
As suspected I found a couple more patches of pinholes and filled them tonight after sanding. Finished before 10.30 :)
20170904_222121.jpg
Plan tomorow night is to sand these last few spots. Retape the graphite( I nicked the tape in a few spots sanding) then bake the tent and spray the final coat of primer.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:22 am
by pee wee
Good luck! That's going to be real nice.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:02 am
by bigyellowtractor
Nearly there fella

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:39 am
by Jeff
Looking good Narfi!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:05 pm
by Fuzz
I hope your weather is better than ours. Nothing but wind and rain the past month :cry:
Your time window is closing. I do not figure you are going to try and heat the tent this winter. I am betting diesel is between $4 and $5 a gallon there.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:19 pm
by narfi
Yep.... $5ish
It has been wet and windy, but today was decent..... I certainly wont be heating it this winter, hoping to get done painting by this weekend.... have had my wife go out and run the heater a couple times today to make sure the last batch of epoxy is ready to sand and i can bake and prime tonight after work.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:57 pm
by Jaysen
I have a line on a little cottage on the shore in SC ... availablity to be determined by Irma and Jose.

:D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:45 am
by narfi
Landon started 2nd grade today. (We didn't get launched before school started :( )

He still is interested and wants to be involved though.
20170905_232821.jpg
I had mentioned the forced air mask to someone here I think. Here is what it looks like with the umbilical cord over my shoulder.
20170905_232906.jpg
I thinned the primer 50% this time and sprayed a thin even coat over the canoe. It sprayed much better.
20170905_232930.jpg
However the problem is that it seemed to want to separate over any of the areas I had filled and sanded. It stuck great to the old primer.
20170905_233015.jpg
I don't know if this is an issue with being over thinned, not clean enough surface or the epoxy filler not being fully cured and creating a reaction.....

I did find a few more pinholes but nothing I am concerned with.
Now I just need to get a smooth enough primed surface to paint.

My two thoughts are,
Spray another thin coat in the morning and then sand once it's cured.

Or
Wait till tomorow night and sand these problem areas and spray again....
I was happy with the even application but those areas that separated then created runs under them I will need to sand as well.....

All horizontal surfaces look amazing!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:33 am
by narfi
Ran the heater for an hour and the primer was mostly dry to the touch. (Runs were still slightly tacky)

So I mixed another batch and sprayed it. Now it looks good.... all those problem areas are gone!
20170906_012811.jpg
If I am still happy tomorow I'll lightly sand the runs and spray the white.

Any suggestions or warnings?
Should I prime again after sanding the runs? How do you decide?

1.40am I'm off to shower and sleep. Work at 8 :(

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:03 am
by narfi
Thinking in the shower. I don't think my compressor is keeping up with the gun and the mask combined very well.

I probably need to find a respirator and use it instead of the mask :/

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:52 am
by Aripeka Angler
narfi wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:33 am
Any suggestions or warnings?
I would hold off on the paint until the primer is completely cured. If you rush the process, the bond will be suspect. I would wait a week and test sand it. If the primer sands off easily and doesn't gum up your sandpaper, it's ready for paint.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:01 am
by narfi
Manufacturer says 24hrs at 77f........

And that was true with the first coat. Even thick and badly run could sand easily after 24hrs.


A week?!??!?!?!?!
The lake might freeze over by Then!
My beard is already turning grey!
I want to get done before Kim nukes us!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:10 pm
by pee wee
narfi wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:45 am

However the problem is that it seemed to want to separate over any of the areas I had filled and sanded. It stuck great to the old primer.

20170905_233015.jpg (why does an image show in the original message but when quoted it won't?)

I don't know if this is an issue with being over thinned, not clean enough surface or the epoxy filler not being fully cured and creating a reaction.....

My two thoughts are,
Spray another thin coat in the morning and then sand once it's cured.
To me it looks like it was overthinned, although it may cure properly anyway. If your spray gun won't handle the primer or paint at the correct viscosity then you need a larger orifice on the spray nozzle. If you get to a size that's big enough to pass the right viscosity but you get an awful splatter-finish, then your air volume needs to increase relative to the fluid. Many spray systems just can't spray thick materials smoothly, although some inexpensive spray guns will- like I said before, there are a lot of variables. Anyway, it's looking like it will be fine, and you're making progress and learning along the way.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:32 pm
by Aripeka Angler
I'm not a big fan of any directions that come from s3.
I've used a bunch of their primer. It's not ready for topcoat in 24 hours.
https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=44655

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:50 pm
by bigyellowtractor
Narfi, just a thought; with you heating with a diesel heater, in an uninsulated tent, do you think it could be a condensation issue ??

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:01 pm
by narfi
That link is showing cold temperatures, I am 'baking' it over 80f.
I know that they changed formulas a few years ago, which primer were you using and how were you applying it?

System Three Application Guide wrote: Yacht Primer dries by evaporation and then cures in a temperaturedependent
resin/hardener curing reaction. It may be recoated with
additional primer after it is dry to the touch but it should not be topcoated
until after it cures. Curing takes about a day in warm temperatures and
longer in cool weather. Test for cure by wetting a fi nger and rubbing it
on the primer. If your fi ngertip picks up some primer then it is not cured.
The fi lm will not be water-resistant until it is cured. Rain or moisture
from dew or condensation can damage the fi lm. The primer cures as a
relatively rigid fi lm, so is not recommended for use on fl exible substrates
like fabric or thermoplastics.
https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.ph ... 30#p117723
tech_support wrote: System Three has changed their epoxy high build primer. I have tested the new primer several times in the last week. Here are my impressions:

- much higher build in 1 coat (this is now a true "high build" primer)
- cures much quicker. :!: Now we can paint in one day, no more waiting for the primer to cure for a week before top coat :)
- its still water reduced and clean up is super simple
- opaqueness: one coat covers completely :D :!:

There is an induction time of 15 minutes. After mixing, you let it set for 15 minutes before application. I noticed this made a big difference. If you roll it on without waiting the full 15 minutes, there tends to be air bubbles left behind. If you give it the full induction time - it lays out very well.

The only downside I see is that the primer is only available in light gray (no more white)

The new primer will be available in November, in the mean time, we still have the WR155 in stock.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:33 pm
by Aripeka Angler
I know that they changed formulas a few years ago, which primer were you using and how were you applying it?
I'm thinking we are both using the gray S3 high build yacht primer, the old stuff was different and white in color.
I've sprayed it, brushed it and rolled it on 4 different boats and some other projects.
After the product information that Joel posted and you copied, I know of at least 6 people who had all of their paint fall off.
I was one of them, all of the S3 topcoat literally fell off my boat.
Joel sent me new paint and primer free of charge. Could have been lack of curing, my friend Cracker Larry was convinced it could be at least part of the problem. Could have been the S3 topcoat. We discussed this for hours in person.
I'm not trying to be confrontational, you asked for advice and I gave it to you.
My hope is you don't have bonding problems, your canoe is looking really good...

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:08 pm
by narfi
Not confrontational at all :)
Tone is not relayed well in writing, if I say something offensive, please assume it is not intended that way.

The topcoat I'm using is awl grip (not s3). I read bad things about s3 topcoat in my research which is why I got the s3 primer and awlgrip topcoat.
Wife has been monitoring the heater for me all day, so I will test tonight according to the s3 guide, and go from there.

It is the test boat, so will be good for me to figure these things out before the big one :)

The primer I am using is not Labeled 'High Build', It is S3 Yacht Primer,(It is grey, but very very light grey, When looking at it, it looks white, I would have preferred a little darker, but will find out when I spray white how it contrasts.) I will try to get a picture of it to post for you when I get home.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:22 pm
by Aripeka Angler
This is the product I have used since it was added to this website.
https://boatbuildercentral.com/proddeta ... cht_primer

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:45 am
by narfi
Yep that's the same primer I have.
Against your better judgement I went ahead tonight. Time will tell and I can be a data point for you. If I end up with the same issues using AWL grip top coat then we know it's the primer curing time is the common denominator. If it doesn't cause issues we can assume it was the s3 top coat was the issue.

I did the wet finger rub test and couldn't soften it tonight.
Sanded all the runs with 120 grit.
Sanded every surface inside and out with 240 grit. (Never gummed up the paper)

Borrowed a respirator instead of the forced air mask :(
Sprayed what I ment to be a very light first coat but was much heavier than I intended.
20170906_214953.jpg
Ran the heater for 30 minutes and sprayed a much lighter second coat. It still filled in nicely and hid most of the grey.

Ran the heater for a little over an hour and sprayed a decent 3rd coat and was happy with the results.
20170907_000539.jpg
One decent sag on an inside chine panel but doesn't look too bad. Certainly not worth messing with. (Maybe I'll get lucky and it will fall to the floor and level itself out..... hehe probably not)

The only real issue was the underside of the rub rails. I got them covered but because of the hidden angles it's nearly impossible not to get too much so runs abound on the outside under the rails.
I used the last of the paint and gave a pretty light coat over the entire exterior... figured it would help in the areas I had sanded through the primer. Can't hurt anyways.

Caught a few bugs already inside but can't mess with them till it cures now.

For the runs on the outside. What s the best way to sand Awlgrip top coat? Same as I was primer? 120 followed by 240? Wet or dry?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:28 pm
by narfi
Checked it this morning before going to work....
Huge fly had landed right in the center of the top of the compartment/breasthook, took a huge dump then drug it's legs through it for a couple of inches and flopped over to make more paint (snow) angels.....

Hoping I can position the paint mask for Landon's radioactive symbols in such a way I can sand and paint the mess.
20170907_092449.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:23 pm
by cape man
That just adds character!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:48 pm
by TomW1
narfi wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:28 pm Checked it this morning before going to work....
Huge fly had landed right in the center of the top of the compartment/breasthook, took a huge dump then drug it's legs through it for a couple of inches and flopped over to make more paint (snow) angels.....

Hoping I can position the paint mask for Landon's radioactive symbols in such a way I can sand and paint the mess.

20170907_092449.jpg
:lol: :lol: Everything grows big in Alaska

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:32 am
by narfi
Sanded all the runs on the side panels under the rub rails (and anywhere) where I got some runs with 120 followed by sanding lightly the entire outside with 240.

Taped the rub rails and inside and masked the radioactive symbol on the top. Didn't have a clean unwanted white spot outside for Landon's name so I'll have to do it after the red.

Mixed the red paint and then Murphy showed up.
My LED lights are in series two rows and the connector after the 2nd bulb failed just as I got the paint mixed.... Didn't have a ladder so tried bumping it with a broom handle... only knocked dust and bugs down on the boat.... ended up hooking power up to the other end of the series and had all but 2 bulbs light.

Painted 2 coats of red and while I was happy not to get any runs, every spot I had sanded down to primer showed through terribly. Sprayed a 3rd coat and it nearly covered it. Hard to see with a camera but I can with the naked eye still pretty easily.
20170908_031748.jpg
20170908_031707.jpg
Unless someone convinces me it's stupid and I need to re prime and paint. My plan is 2 more coats in the morning and hope that finishes the coverage I want.

I'm really happy with my spraying now... wish I'd done so well on the primer and white.... and that I can remember it all when the fs17 is ready...

3.30am I need sleep.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:07 am
by Jaysen
I won't argue against your claim of stupid (I'll side with your missus because that's ALWAYS a safe bet) but as far as painting goes, if your happy flat out ignore everyone. If you have doubts though, do an Eric and fix it till your happy.

This is YOUR boat. You make it they way you want it. I'm very happy with my girl being a bit... less than a 7. If you want a 10 then it's your call to make her one.

Obviously she looks good to me. I'm sure you and Landon will have a ball with her no matter what the paint looks like.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:01 am
by BB Sig
It looks good from Florida! Keep in mind that you are probably going to turn Landon loose in it. It will need an overhaul and you can make it pretty in 10 years. :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:28 pm
by narfi
In 10yrs Landon can refinish it.......

Got up this morning and bought another 6gal of diesel :(

Sprayed 2 more coats (5 total) and am happy with it.(after coat 4 It was completely covered and could no longer see any splotxhes showing through, did the 5th for "just in case" payed for it with a small run you wont see and i wont show anyone) It covered well just needed more coats. Such a relief after being so frustrated after coat 2 last night at 2am.
20170908_101622.jpg
20170908_100025.jpg
Heater is acting up but I still managed to get to work by 10.
My wife will monitor it some today and hopefully tonight I can mask for the name on the side. Otherwise will have to do it tomorrow....

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:12 pm
by BB Sig
That looks great! Nice reflection. 8)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:27 am
by Fuzz
Looks really nice Narfi :!: Must be very close to splashing it :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:22 am
by Eric1
Looks nice Narfi. :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:26 am
by blueflood
Looks pretty sharp Narfi 8) Reds and yellows are difficult to paint and cover...something about those two colours. Great job.

Marc

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:52 pm
by Jeff
Yes Narfi, nice work!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:51 am
by narfi
Masked and sprayed Landon's name (first and middle) on today.
20170909_135651.jpg
After work I couldn't help myself and peaked a bit at the other end....
20170909_234720.jpg
Will need to do a bit of razor work when I peal it all back, but if the rest looks like this I will be happy!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:51 am
by BB Sig
Looks awesome! He should really enjoy it.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:08 am
by Jeff
Really well done Narfi!!! Great work!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:10 am
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:08 am Really well done Narfi!!! Great work!! Jeff
Sir, Are you in secure location? If not GET OFF LINE AND SECURE YOURSELF!!

:D

Narfi, let me know when your in SE SC so I can kidnap you and force you to paint my boat. That looks mighty fine. Mighty fine.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:27 am
by Browndog
Looking good!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:21 pm
by narfi
Finished unwrapping today.
20170910_191307.jpg
20170910_191459.jpg
20170910_163444.jpg
Had a couple spots I hadn't taped well enough and there were pink misted spots a couple square inches each. I was able to run them out with a papertowl and reducer since the red wasn't fully cured yet.

I could have taped around the seats and yoke a little better but I think I can scrape it okish with a razor.

There are a few bugs and a few runs but from 4ft it looks good to me. I'm happy with it so far.

Still need to glue the hatch rings in and clean up some bad tape spots.

Hope to launch it Tuesday or Wednesday depending on weather and how hard I think the paint is feeling.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:27 am
by Fuzz
Narfi that is a mighty fine looking canoe :!: You are sure to have one happy son and you have reason to be proud. Hope the splash goes well, we will be waiting to hear all about it. :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:39 am
by bigyellowtractor
Looking good. Glad you were able to overcome your painting woes.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:11 am
by pee wee
That's a snappy looking boat, people will recognize Landon and his little Cadillac from a distance.

I think you made the right decision to get one under your belt before building a bigger boat, it looks like you're in good shape for it now. 8)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:32 am
by narfi
Thanks guys! It's been fun ;)

Any guesses on weight? I plan to weigh it before launch.
Plans estimate 55lbs for okoume and 70lbs for meranti.

I used okoume but added 4oz inside and out, went heavy on epoxy, faired more than needed, added compartments instead of small breasthooks and added the two plastic watertight hatches and a lot of paint.

If it's under 75lbs I'll be happy but have no idea how it will turn out.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:26 pm
by bigyellowtractor
narfi wrote:
Any guesses on weight? I plan to weigh it before launch.
Plans estimate 55lbs for okoume and 70lbs for meranti.
I there a big prize for whoever guesses nearest ?????

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:28 pm
by Marshall Moser
Not to rain on your parade, but 81# is my guess.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:29 pm
by narfi
bigyellowtractor wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:26 pm I there a big prize for whoever guesses nearest ?????
Pride!
Marshall Moser wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:28 pm Not to rain on your parade, but 81# is my guess.
Unfortunately that is close to my guess as well....

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:40 pm
by Eric1
I'm in...80lbs 14 ounces. :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:14 pm
by bigyellowtractor
I'll guess at a little under 37kg :-)

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:59 pm
by narfi
Marshall Moser wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:28 pm Not to rain on your parade, but 81# is my guess.
Eric1 wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:40 pm I'm in...80lbs 14 ounces. :lol:
bigyellowtractor wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:14 pm I'll guess at a little under 37kg :-)
Marshall Moser for 81lbs
Eric1 for 80lbs 14oz
bigyellowtractor for 80lbs 9oz

Makes it hard for Eric1 to win....

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:03 pm
by Jaysen
81lb 2oz. :P

Are we using "price is right" rules here?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:07 pm
by narfi
Jaysen wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:03 pm 81lb 2oz. :P

Are we using "price is right" rules here?
Sure why not?
The "Price is Right" rule is used in any game or contest where the one closest to the target number without going over is the winner.
Jaysen 81lbs 2oz
Marshall Moser for 81lbs
Eric1 for 80lbs 14oz
bigyellowtractor for 80lbs 9oz

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:09 pm
by Marshall Moser
I'm boxed in :help:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:22 pm
by Jaysen
Marshall Moser wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:09 pm I'm boxed in :help:
My paraphrase of the Ramos quote... All is fair when the prize is women, booze or pride.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:31 pm
by Eric1
Jaysen wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:22 pm
Marshall Moser wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:09 pm I'm boxed in :help:
My paraphrase of the Ramos quote... All is fair when the prize is women, booze or pride.
:lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:05 am
by BB Sig
1 lbs since it is Price is Right rules. :lol:

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:05 pm
by dbcrx
I think you're all a bit off actually, so I'd say 77lb

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:14 pm
by cape man
76 lbs.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:15 pm
by Larry B
No clue on the weight, but you did a great job on it, it looks fantastic. Love the colors :D

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:07 pm
by Browndog
Surely it cannot weigh more than a Grumman 17 Heavy duty? Which by the way is a beast at 72 lbs. My guess is 54 lbs.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:23 pm
by narfi
Jaysen 81lbs 2oz
Marshall Moser for 81lbs
Eric1 for 80lbs 14oz
bigyellowtractor for 80lbs 9oz
dbcrx 77lbs
cape man 76lbs
Browndog 54lbs
BB Sig 1lb

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:40 pm
by narfi
20170912_132414.jpg
20170912_132335.jpg
Jaysen wins ......

90lbs.

If it doesn't rain we are taking it out after school gets out.

Will need to do some thinking and analysis on that extra 35lbs before starting the fs17.........

But today isn't that day :)
20170912_133609.jpg

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:31 pm
by Jaysen
No way! I was just being an a$$ I thought you'd be under 70 for sure!

Marshall, I relinquish my prize (much as I did when I said "I do") and leave it to you.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:41 pm
by Eric1
I would have never thought 90! 8O

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:47 pm
by cape man
She's a tank! A beautiful, artful tank!

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:05 pm
by Jeff
Nice tank Narfi!!! Will standup to real punishment!!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:50 pm
by Browndog
Wow! A 90 lb. 14 foot mini atomic powered destroyer. I guess I forgot to factor in how heavy radioactive materials are.

Seriously, though I think someone put a thumb on the scale when they were weighing this beast.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:13 pm
by Aripeka Angler
Beautiful work, she sure is pretty. :D
I'm kind of partial to red boats...

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:23 pm
by narfi
A teaser for now.
20170912_171657.jpg
Should I post in the launched forum?
Or just post the pictures, review and thoughts here?

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:33 pm
by Jaysen
Both.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:18 am
by narfi

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:59 am
by Marshall Moser
Wonderful job.

Based on comments about other HC14 builds, the heavy duty construction probably adds to the stability you're seeing.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:35 am
by pee wee
Beautiful! I agree, especially if Landon is taking her out by himself, the extra weight will be a plus for stability.

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:31 am
by Jeff
Very nice Narfi!! She looks great in water!! Jeff

Re: Narfi's HC14

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:14 pm
by bigyellowtractor
narfi wrote:
90lbs.

Will need to do some thinking and analysis on that extra 35lbs before starting the fs17.........
Just for interest, Narfi, my HC12 tips the scales at 60.5lb. (don't know what it's supposed to be though as the weights on the website and drawings all contradict)

Looking at your brilliant photos though, I'm surprised how much bigger your 14 looks. It's a much more substantial little ship.

Re: Narfi's HC14 build thread - LAUNCHED

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:29 pm
by narfi
Interesting.....
Based off of the study plans which give the most elaborate weight breakdown....
HC12 from 6mm Okoume = 40lbs
HC14 from 6mm Okoume = 55lbs

You built the HC12 from 5mm and came up exactly 150% of designed weight
I built the HC14 from 6mm and came up roughly 164% of designed weight

I know I was extremely resin heavy on the inside because of my issues with the woven cloth, and before I got the gun figured out had some puddles of primer in the bottom as well.... It seems like we are actually fairly close to each other in terms of % weight over expected, so perhaps I didn't do as poorly as I thought?

Re: Narfi's HC14 build thread - LAUNCHED

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:39 pm
by bigyellowtractor
I think all the weights given are for "Hull only, not including fairing and paint" so I don't suppose either of us did too bad considering we added bits. My foam decks although they felt like they weighed nothing, were a couple of lb each.

Mine doesn't feel too heavy though, I can easily pick it up and pop it on my shoulders (I weighed it on a set of bathroom scales that way)

Re: Narfi's HC14 build thread - LAUNCHED

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:13 pm
by Fuzz
Been out of pocket but congratulations on the launch :!: Boat looks great and I am sure both of you are going to enjoy it a lot.

Re: Narfi's HC14 build thread - LAUNCHED

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:18 am
by blueflood
Super nice Narfi. Great job with your son 8)
For all it's worth I was thinking in the high 60's - low 70's pounds.

Marc