Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

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Jaysen
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Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

Post by Jaysen »

Mrs has conceded to "really, another boat?".
"Yes, but not just a boat, a FAST boat!"
"But you said 'no motor'..."
"Right, like the ones in the harbor... main and jib, fast enough to make a day trip out of going home, but slow enough I won't kill us."
"You're an idiot."
"Well, yes i am. but I'm your idiot."
"Please please please don't remind me."
"So ... A bit more of a boat?"
"Fine. but it must match Lil Bit."

The rules are simple
1. Budget and save.
1.a Plan the build costs (still debating CNC or "the hard way")
1.b Figure out no wind propulsion
1.c Figure out cost of space to build
1.d Figure out cost to get her to the water
1.e Ask folks what costs I'm missing from the folks here on that forum

2. Make sure we can get on a list for stack space. We will not be investing in a tow vehicle so she'll live at a marina in a dry stack. When she's in Beaufort, she'll be moored up a creek with Lil Bit doing tender duty.
2.a Find a stack that can accommodate the lifting keel (no CB here!).
2.b Find housing close to stack to allow maximum time in the water.

3. See if i can find a partial hull (I know of at least one that has been offered)
3.a If no partial, then CNC?
3.b Budget may drive this more than time.Electronics will be a cost factor that can't be ignored this time.

4. Get a workspace
4.a Figure out what I really need in space
4.b Can we live there during build?
4.c Do I need proximity to water
4.d Make sure lease cost is not going to balloon if I take more than a year to build this bad boat.

5. Learn to sail you moron
5.a ASA classes 101-104
5.b Get on a weekly race crew
5.c Try to work some deliveries of "the big boys" to the islands
5.d MORE TIME IN A BOAT UNDER SAIL

There's no timeline yet. I'm starting the thread to document more of the thought process and discussion about "what the heck is this dimwit planning?" Second post will be a bit later and will get into the selection of the sb18 and my actual planned program.

Let the chastisement begin!
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

OrangeQuest

Re: Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

Post by OrangeQuest »

"Let the chastisement begin!" You are married, pretty sure that has been covered already! :D

This is something you have been talking about doing and seem to have a good plan for what you want to do and you don't look like you are getting any younger. :) I know to well about budget restricting building so just keep planning with the budget in mind and plan far enough ahead so you have what you need as you build. You may consider your wife learn the basics of sailing too if you guys will be spending time together, if she decides to dump you overboard then she can still get to port! 8O :lol:

Best of luck on your new adventure!!
OQ

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Jaysen
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Re: Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

Post by Jaysen »

OrangeQuest wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:28 am "Let the chastisement begin!" You are married, pretty sure that has been covered already!
Well... yes. But that is more like ... foreplay. Let's move on :oops:

The use case: a mid size boat that can be a bit more than a day sailer (over night camping) and will provide "above average" performance while still being comfortable for "newish" sailors.

Approaching the use case in reverse order...

Newish Sailors
I've sailed before. Sunfish as a kid. Some day sails on 24-40' boats. A Lil Bit of a boat (v12). There's a big difference between that experience and running a 550 Open class boat. As part of the build we (Mrs as well) will be doing the ASA 101-104 classes and certs. Mrs is less interested but is committed to having a way to get back to shore when I do stupid and incapacitate myself. Once we have the 101 and 102 we will look for crew opportunities in the weekly "races" here in CHS harbor. At 103 level certification we will be renting hulls (Catalina 223?) for day sails. At 104 we will start doing overnights in rented hulls. I expect that A Bit More won't be done until we have quite a bit of experience compared to what we have now.

Performance
Let's be honest, who doesn't want to go fast on the water? While I'm committed to "no ICE" I'd like a boat that I can expect to plane. The open 550 class is a planing hull with adequate sail. JM has repeatedly demonstrated the minor differences between the i550 design and the SB18 design. The SB18 meets my goals which, at most, will be enter casual races just to say I raced. ;) My real performance goal is to make a 70mi run "near shore" (10mi from shore) in 10hr. I'm not talking about straight line, but beating time over 70mi point to point distance. That would mean pulling 10kn over significant portions. This should be withing the capabilities of the open 550 class hulls. Obviously there are wind conditions that would be required for this, but that's why God gave us prevailing winds.

Last note on performance is the "WTF HAPPENED TO THE WIND!?!?" issue. I know there are folks that row i550 vs an outboard. I'd like something that is efficient enough to allow a combination of human generated and stored electric power (majority human that will be provided by pedaling a generator for the electric motor which I've been working on designing). I think the SB18 meets this plan as well.

camper
Yes yes yes... the AD are better at this. The majority of the SB use will be fast sailing in CHS harbor. Camping will be just sleeping in the cockpit or under the deck with full access to facilities at marinas. Mrs isn't like me and will NOT stay off shore on purpose (we will always have emergency supplies to enable overnight stops, but I'm not looking to wind up single...) unless we are in a fully equipped yacht. The one area I hit gold is that she's not like Fuzz's boss lady when it comes to requiring a full head on board. I expect we will make a run to SAV or Myrtle Beach a couple times a year at most. I on the other hand have no issues with the SB accommodations. All I need for a week is a blanket, a rocket stove, some combustibles, some water, and food. The SB has more than enough for us to do an overnight that will keep the boss lady happy.

That's the basic use plan. Let's find the holes and plan the necessary adjustments.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

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Re: Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

Post by terrulian »

At the present moment I'm heading out to an adventure myself on Tomales Bay, but first thoughts:

Electronics don't have to be much. All you need is a handheld vhf, handheld GPS, and cheap depthsounder. I'm thinking $1000 absolute top end for these, more like $500. This is assuming you know how to read a chart, which you certainly should.

I'd just forget a planing hull/rig, if you want to have a reasonable cabin. That is just not going to happen cheap.

70 miles is a long way upwind. Roughly, you can multiply by 1.5 for distance for tacking, and at a speed of 5 knots, lets not be unreasonable, we get 70 X 1.5 / 5 = 21 hours. This is assuming perfect conditions, steady wind, no problems, none of which is likely.
I wouldn't want to be sailing at night at sea without radar, and maybe some other stuff; and I'd want to be proficient at navigation and even if so, the wife ain't gonna like it.

More later.
Tony
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Re: Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

Post by Jaysen »

T, had a big long reply, then for got to submit it. Then closed the browser. That basically confirms the wife's opinion... I'm an idiot.

On the electronics front, I'll likely "start" where you're suggesting, but I'd really like ABM to be more of a "learn it all" boat. That means that I'd like to get into the modern, perm-mounted, all-on-a-screen type nav systems. If Mrs loses all interest in sailing then I'll have a well equipped multi-day tripper for myself to explore the SC coast. If she loves it then we can look to migrating the system to our next boat. I expect that a splash we will have a pile of handheld units though. One thing the boss did say to me when we were chatting about this... "I hate the mess you have in Lil Bit with all the 'stuff'." Maybe that's influencing my thoughts more than i realize. Hmmm.

Cabin space is not a concern. This is really a day boat with the OCCASIONAL overnight. Think hammock from the boom and air-mattress in cockpit. Cabin will be for dry stores (wet bags hanging) and chem-crapper. I will be keeping the internal spaces as clear as possible for the random storm that drive us in for shelter. Keep in mind we are talking 2-4 times a year.

70mi is the distance between Tybee (Savannah) and Sumter (Charleston). That's a SW/NE line. The only times I've really seen winds directly from those points... the weather had a name :) When I really plot the course I'm looking at just over 80mi. I know that folks make that in an overnight in a 31' cruiser (depart noon, arrive 8a or so). My goal for those trips is leaving at sunrise and being tied up by sunset. If we are getting close to sun set and not close to destination, I'm running behind a barrier island for the night. I guess I'm assuming that the SB will be significantly faster than a much longer displacement hull. Am I wrong there?
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

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Re: Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

Post by topwater »

The only way to do those distance in that amount of time would be a fast catamaran or a trimaran .
If you want to go fast this is the way to go plus they are very stable . There are some nice plans
out there in your size range.
Novi 23 finally launched !

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Re: Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

Post by Jaysen »

Really not a fan of the multi-hulls. Not for any good reason. I just prefer mono-hulls.

I guess I'll need to figure out what a reasonable speed/distance for the SB is going to be. Not a theoretical speed, but practical use speed. If those distances are out then I'll need to simply change my travel plans :)
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

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Re: Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

Post by fallguy1000 »

Jacques or Evan Gatehouse are the guys on the speed questions, but in general terms.

Displacement sailboat speed in knots is

1.34 times the square root of the length.

So, yes, longer is faster, but it starts to limit out, so a 400 footer isn't faster and faster and the keel would be rather deep!

And I don't see how the SB18 ever goes 7 knots unless the hull is not a displacement hull.

It might not do 6 knots if the calc is right.

And 5 is probably close to the best you'll get.

For a 70kn run; you'll need perfect winds for a 14 hour run. That is a long day and lots of work.

Corrections welcome, I am not a sailor, but know enough to know I didn't want to sail.

If you want more speed, multihulls have other rules.

Or maybe this hull behaves differently.

I'd say you are looking at more like 35kn a day.
My boat build is here -------->

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Re: Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

Post by fallguy1000 »

You'll get lift with that flat bottom.

My numbers are wrong.

But the tradeoff is a really rough ride.

I don't think ot is a good boat for a camping trip, but that is just me.

I don't know diddly about the barrier island depths.
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Re: Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

Post by Jaysen »

Thanks FallGuy. It is a planing hull which changes the rules. JM did differ from the i550 plan to improve the bow entrance into the water (as I understand it). that should provide a "more comfortable" ride than the i550 or other open 550 designs. There is a small price in downwind sailing but... eh. I'm not racing in a class to care that much.

The barriers here are all over the map. Some places in Beaufort go dry at the mouth during low tide, but have 30' holes up the marsh. It's really about learning where you can hide. I know from chatting with others that there are lots of hides. I don't have the GPS list and tide notes... yet. That said, the barriers tend to have narrow channels with large flats. I'd have to lift the keel for sure. I have ideas on that. Other SB18 builders have modified the cabin roof to allow lifting the keel underway. It can be done.

The main use is NOT camping. That will be a "oh sh!t, let's go hide" or planned event. 90% of the time I'll be poking around CHS or Beaufort basking in the glory of wind, water and rigging. I might accidentally catch a fish or two. There's no reason I can't be in the boat 365 days a year (unless hurricane but I AM that level of stupid). ABM is really about fun and improving/learning skills.

Sometimes I think the planning is almost as much fun as the building and using. Then I remember the blast I had in Lil Bit over vacation. Planning is fun, but it doesn't compare to the excitement of seeing all that work payoff.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

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