Jaysen's SB18 - A Bit More

[terrulian]

Roller furling is the only way to go. Either Jean-Luc Van Den Heede or Mark Slats, first and second in the Golden Globe, respectively, used hanked-on sails. My impression is that Mark Slats is an animal and I think he's the one that had them. The argument is that you can get a better sail shape upwind with a hanked-on sail than a roller-furling sail. This gave Mark a bit of a speed advantage, but only upwind, and since there are so many variables it is hard to say how much of an advantage.
Everybody's got an opinion, but the Vendee-Globe folks use roller furling and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't confuse them with sailors who are not hard-core.
Here's my experience: When you're sailing upwind, it makes a big difference what headsail you're flying, which is why there are so many options. But sometimes rolling the sail up 4 feet makes it just the right size, while six feet is too little sail, and 2 feet too much. So to get things just right you need about 4-5 headsails not counting reacher-drifter and spinnaker. This is too much for a reasonable cruiser to carry aboard. If you have an inner forestay, that's another sail or two, and if you have a ketch as you are planning, that's another one.
But that's not the main thing. You need a lot of energy to douse the headsail, bag it, stow it, get the next one out of the locker, hank it on, hoist, and trim, all in big seas. It's a wrestling match. A different sail also means securing the sheets and moving the jib cars. We did a passage from Bali to Singapore which was 1000 miles to weather in anywhere from 15-40 knots, averaging 25-30. The wind would stay at a constant velocity for no more than 3 hours, sometimes one hour. It is just not humanly possible for a shorthanded crew to have the energy to make that many sail changes, especially as you're getting beat up from the motion of the boat and it's not easy to sleep soundly.

[Jaysen]

I get it. My limited observations is that the winning racers are winning more in tactics and proper sail trim than having “the perfect sail”. Not saying sail selection isn’t important but if you don’t know how to properly trim...

Slats is a couple different animals in one human skin. He probably made the sail from woven mermaid hair he collected after they all swooned from seeing him. My guess is the thought “I should change the sail” and the sails dowsed and raised themselves. But maybe he’s just human. Maybe.

Anyhoo, I’ve had to swap a sail on a furler. At sea. It was much easier on the dock. I’d rather have dual rollers and only the asym to hand launch. Add double reefs on the main and I think that’s a decent plan for short handed in a sloop.

My admiration for the ketch might be more romantic than practical. While the Shannon is a dream boat for me I didn’t have enough time to really understand how it sailed. The H38... that’s just a sexy looking “classic” sailboat. Practically speaking a sloop should be much simpler for shorthanded crew. I’m getting a lot of real experience so hopefully I’ll make a decision based on more than how I feel about a boat.

Hopefully

[terrulian]

Two furlers on the bow is the way to go, and again, this is what you see in the Vendee Globe and some fairly newish high end boats. I wish I had that but didn't want to go to the expense.
I didn't think, after the fact, that the spinnaker was really necessary. We had the easiest thing you could carry, which was an asymmetrical with a sock. Still, there were few occasions when it was of real value. There are a some issues in ocean passages that make it different from inshore stuff: One, if the wind is right for a kite, it is pretty common for it to be heading for 30 or dying. So you get it out of the bag, rig it, hoist it, and then two hours later you can't fly it. Two, you don't really want to fly it at night with only one person awake. We tried to avoid going to the bow in the dark with the other crew asleep. (Of course...not a problem for the supermen and women of the Golden Globe). Three, in light air, ocean seas are often too big to keep it full so a poled-out drifter--that is, something with a little less belly--is easier to fly. Four, you basically have to use it on a broad reach. The times when you have a broad reach in the right wind and sea conditions are less frequent than you might wish. Five, two poled-out headsails was our go-to downwind rig. You can sail from about 100 degrees on one tack to 100 degrees on the other without having to do diddly. You don't have to jibe, just modest adjustments of the foreguys and sheets. Another thing that worked well when the wind was on the beam was to leave the windward headsail poled out, and sheet the leeward one in. It catches the exhaust from the windward sail. Twin poled-out headsails is a very common setup on the Singlehanded Transpac. Six, the vane has a lot less difficulty responding to windshifts and the rolling of the boat downwind, and isn't always struggling to keep the spinnaker full. Seven, it's a lot of extra money and stowage.

You just aren't going to buy yourself a lot more speed, on average over long distances, sailing the boat shorthanded, with a spinnaker.
Again, a good way to start an argument.

[Fuzz]

After reading the story of Guzzwell circumnavigating in a 20 foot boat I got the impression that just keeping moving in the right direction will get it done. I might be wrong but it feels like a longer waterline could help more than having the perfect sail flying.

[Jaysen]

Never thought about winging jibs with 2 whiskers.

You. Win.

Honestly, spins still make me nervous. I know my racing experience means sailing at the edges is “normal”. Cruising is a lot less “oh fork! fork! fork!” and more “let’s reef before we start dinner”. Not that it’s easier but racing seems to be more about pushing you, your skills and your vessel to the edge and walking that tight rope without falling off. Every time we’ve had spins out someone winds up testing the righting moment of a boat.

So revised sail plan for vg26
* standard 120 jib on starboard roller
* 150 light air Genoa on port roller
* main with 2 reefs
* move rollers forward to bow sprit?

You could stack the 150 on the spi to the top of the mast but I feel like you’d have to manually pass it over the inner stay making it less than ideal.

And now I’m over thinking something that isn’t even possible for a while. Dang you Tony!

[Jaysen]

After reading the story of Guzzwell circumnavigating in a 20 foot boat I got the impression that just keeping moving in the right direction will get it done. I might be wrong but it feels like a longer waterline could help more than having the perfect sail flying.

If want to get there on time, don’t sail. But yes, a swan 70 will get you there faster than a Catalina 27.

The Vg26 is really damn near perfect for CHS into Caribbean and gulf. Easy to single hand. Skinny water friendly. Easy to maintain. Open enough be comfortable and not too stuffy. My Christmas list only has one entry this year.

[terrulian]

It's not that you don't want to go fast when cruising, and are taking your time. It's just that breaking something 1500 miles from help is something to be avoided.

[Jaysen]

It's not that you don't want to go fast when cruising, and are taking your time. It's just that breaking something 1500 miles from help is something to be avoided.

Unless you’re in the vendee...

There’s fast and “fast enough”. I imagine the max hull speed of the vg26 would be the limiting factor. I’m rounding it to 6kn. Maybe I’m still learning but I don’t see the value of flying a spin outside the context of “I win you buy the beer”.

Edumacate me. Please.

[Netpackrat]

You could stack the 150 on the spi to the top of the mast but I feel like you’d have to manually pass it over the inner stay making it less than ideal.

No personal experience sailing anything bigger than a dinghy, but I have read that one trick when tacking is furling the forward headsail in to get it around the inner stay, and then furling it back out on the opposite tack. In one of his books that I read, Fatty Goodlander talks about flying two headsails poled out on opposite sides, and how well it works. Another thing I thought is kind of cool, if you watch the Delos videos on Youtube when they are rigged for downwind sailing, their Amel has a special foil on its furler, allowing a second sail to be rigged on the opposite side from their genoa, with a pole on each side. If they need to reduce sail in a hurry, they can be rolled up together on the furler.

Wish I still lived closer to usable water.

[Jaysen]

So here's what happened over brunch with her majesty, Queen of the House.

Q: You're bored with all this aren't you?
M: mmphf (was mowing down some pancakes)
Q: You really really like the sailing still?
M: MMMMMPHFFFF!!!
Q: Please keep your eggs IN YOUR MOUTH.
M: ....
Q: You mentioned A Bit More the other day. Doesn't Las Brisas cover the point of the fast boat?
M: .... (there was a timid nod in there)
Q: Maybe we should get serious about a big boat, not the world boat but something we can do a week in... QT something I think you called it.
M: VG26?
Q: Yeah. That one. Weren't you bothering all the boat guys with it the last couple days?
M: Uhhh...
Q: Let's start working on that. It will be fun. And you'll be out of my hair for a while.

Looks like I need to start planning next build. I've some questions for JM but we are officially starting the boat building kitty next week. The VG will get the ABM designation as Whole Lotta is reserved for the world cruiser.

So it begins...