Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

I've got a concept/design program I have been turning over in my mind for a while now and I think I need to seek some outside input to tell me if I am full of crap or if it is at all viable. Last time I spent much time here I know there were some bad feelings going both ways and I wasn't planning on coming back, but the fact remains that there are some projects going on here that I find really interesting, this is where my favorite boat designer hangs out, and out of all the places I can think of to post this, I will probably still get the most open minded hearing at Bateau. Anyway bygones are probably best left being bygones. Apologies in advance for how long this post is going to end up.

Based on having enjoyed my experiences (admittedly limited) with dinghy sailing, I think I want to get a bigger boat that is capable of more. Something in the 23-25 foot range, that I can take my family (myself, wife, and 2 kids who are currently 4 and 7) out for possibly as long as a week or two, or alternately myself and 1-2 other guys for hunting trips of similar length to the islands in Prince William Sound for deer. And also weekend excursions to some of the lakes around here. Trailering to Haines and cruising part of southeast AK would be neat someday. Some particulars:

-Must be trailerable behind full size pickup without oversize permit. I live in Anchorage, which is probably the most inaccurately named town ever. We've got all of this water in upper Cook Inlet, which is basically useless due to the extreme tides. There's not actually any anchorage or marina, just a sketchy boat launch which you have to time right and then haul ass south to avoid getting stranded on a giant mudflat. Everybody who owns a boat here either keeps it in or trailers it to Whittier, Seward, Valdez, etc. And I am not willing to have a boat that I can't keep close enough to check on the lines, etc myself if the wind comes up. If I still lived in a place where I could realistically keep a boat in the water (I grew up in Cordova), I would happily get something bigger. I'd probably already have VG26 plans on hand, as far as that goes.

-Keel centerboarder with shoal draft. See above about extreme tides. Shallow draft capability (as well as reasonable height when being trailered and for ease of launching) is a big deal, and just screams for the type of keel used by the Vagabond series

-Sleeps 4, 1-2 of whom can be less than 6' tall.

-Basic galley. If I can boil water and run a skillet, and have some minimal dish washing capacity I am happy there.

-Inside steering capability. So here is the first possibly unrealistic demand (blame Fuzz, he got me thinking this way when he mentioned pilothouses in an email last year)... Even in the summer, the weather here can turn to absolute crap fairly quickly, and hypothermia is always lurking. Nearly all boats in this size range are operated exclusively from the cockpit, out in the elements. I wouldn't plan on going out in the kind of crap that would make a pilothouse boat necessary (my sailing season would be done by early-mid fall), but if I am out there and the weather turns nasty, I want some minimal capability to steer from inside and see well enough outside to avoid running into anything (clearly I would still need to go outside to adjust sails, etc). Emphasis on minimal inside steering capability... As in a cable operated control that could be attached to the tiller with a quick release pin, and a throttle for the auxilliary. And a folding and/or dismountable place to sit. I would not plan on using it unless I had to. Just to get home or to a more sheltered location.

-Enclosed head (assumed to be horribly cramped). The second possibly unrealistic demand... I have read pretty much every Vagabond thread I could find on this forum, and I am well aware of Jacques' stance on adding such to a boat of this size. I.E. it's just asking too much, and you sacrifice too much in space. The bottom line is I am willing to make that sacrifice for my own privacy and that of whomever I have with me, and especially given the aforementioned crap weather, it isn't necessarily realistic to ask everyone else to go out in the cockpit while one does their business. Other boats in this size range and even a few smaller ones manage, so it's not too far out of bounds.

-Outboard auxilliary. An inboard takes up too much space and costs too much, plus through hulls that aren't there can't leak. The boat will have to winter outdoors on its trailer, and being able to store the engine indoors as well as easily remove it for maintenance is highly desirable. And if I decide I just want to buy a new motor every few years and sell the old one for reliability's sake, that's not totally unreasonable with an outboard on a bracket (not saying I would do this, but it has a certain appeal).

-Aluminum construction preferred, composite acceptable. Likely I am barking up the wrong tree here but I thought I would throw it out there. While I am comfortable working with composites and have built 2 small boats with stitch and glue, at heart I am a metalworker. And an alloy hull has a lot of appeal to me durability wise. Unfortunately there is a near total dearth of available plans (or factory sailboats) out of aluminum until you get somewhere over 30 feet in length. Plywood plans can theoretically be adapted but you are on your own as far as figuring out plate thicknesses and stringers, etc. They both may use developable surfaces, but aluminum boats are built differently under the skin from S&G. One of the reasons I find the Welsford Penguin so intriguing, is that while it is a lapstrake boat, if you look at the way it is put together, it is very similar to aluminum construction (and he managed to fit a head into it). I saw where at least one guy made an aluminum Welsford Scamp, so I am not the only person to look at JW's designs and have that thought. Anyway I will almost certainly end up with a composite boat. 8^/

-One other constraint if I build rather than buy, is work space. I could do a 20-21 foot boat fairly easily in the extended portion of my garage (previous owner basically added a one car garage sized extension out the back of the original 2 -more like 1.5 given modern SUVs/pickups- car garage), 23 with some difficulty, 25 would be really pushing it and probably require the extension to be extended further. I need to retain the ability to make emergency vehicle repairs inside during the winter if I have to. So the bottom line is I can buy a bigger boat than I have room to realistically build from scratch.

I am also not necessarily committed to the idea of building from scratch. If I can find a boat I can afford that will fit my needs, or that I can modify to do so, then I am A-OK with that, especially given how the world seems to be absolutely lousy with old fiberglass sailboats. Here in AK there is not always a lot to choose from and they cost about twice what you would expect to pay down south, but something like a used Catalina 25 is still fairly affordable from what I have seen. While I would love building from plans, I also have no lack of other projects to keep myself busy with. And even if I were to build, I will probably still buy a used boat first just to make sure sailing a boat larger than a dinghy is really something I want to do. The Catalina 25 actually has a lot of appeal; already has the enclosed head and available with the keel type I am after. Most of them seem to have the "pop top" which should lend itself to building a new (permanent, non poppable) cabin top out of foam sandwich that is raised enough in the rear to allow outward visibility when using the inside steering.

Another boat that comes close is the Compac 23 pilothouse, but it isn't quite what I am looking for, and also they are all fairly new and therefore well out of my price range. The cost of one of those is a LOT of money for a 23 foot boat any way you slice it.

All of that said, things designed specifically for their purpose are usually better than things modified for the same purpose, so if I can find the right set of plans, then I will buy the learning boat, and then build the one I actually want. I just haven't found anything quite like it out there in the world of boat plans, and am not sure if that means it's a bad idea, or just that there is a very limited market for it.

It's a great idea and you have obviously put in a lot of thought about it.
I think the Catalina 25 is your best option for a bunch of reasons. Though I assume you are a skilled builder, it will still take a long time to build a boat that big. Catalina 25's were very popular and therefore there are a lot available. https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/ca ... 25-review/
Frank Butler was a genius designer, although since his boats were not as fast as those by drawn by others, he is not as venerated. His boats have always been forgiving, seaworthy, and stable, and have a lot of space for their length. This is true even of the early versions. I personally only lament my Catalina 22's speed when racing...so I gave up racing. As a cruiser, it is great. For a decade I have kept it 1/2 the year in Tomales Bay on northern California's Pacific Coast, which, like your environment, has a shoal area around the launch ramp and so the swing keel is perfect. After launch it is left on a mooring. The folks there have been doing moorings for over 100 years and know how to keep the lines safe in the gales that blow through, although it is wise to make yearly inspections and keep up the maintenance.
In terms of the inside steering station, I would just get a tiller pilot with a remote. Then perhaps modify the pop-top as you suggest. Otherwise, rigging a system with cables in a small space may clutter things a bit. If you figure it out, however, let us know your solution.
One thing I don't think I'd given a whole lot of consideration to is the launch prep. Unlike others who brag about how fast they can get into the water, it takes me half a day. This is perhaps because I am overly fussy about the rig and always tune it from scratch at the beginning of every season. If you just marked it you'd probably save time; but it is still a job getting the mast set up right.
One other consideration in a small boat is that, at least in my 22 (which is considerably smaller inside than the 25), it takes quite a while to change over from sleeping to eating to sailing configurations. You need to get up into the 30-footers and above to make this transition a no-brainer.
Let us know how your plans develop.

I don't remember your previous posts, sorry.
It took me a while to realize that you want a sailboat.
To put all your requests together in one easily trailerable sailboat is a challenge. I don't think I can do it.
You mentioned John Welsford. He is a real professional designer. I met him once, he knows what he is doing plus he is an experienced sailor.
I say professional because it matters when everybody who downloads Delft thinks he can design a boat.
JW has several very seaworthy designs that would fit the bill with always one or two of your requirements missing.
I don't think the VG2o would work for you. Maybe the VG23 but it is big to tow and has an open cockpit. A dodger is possible. Several have made transatlantic crosssings and one has sailed half around the world.
The separate head you ask for is impossible. It exist in the VG26 but that boat is not trailerable. The 26 has a wide beam which is fine for accommodations but the VG23 has better proportions.

I like Terrulian's advice. Not trailerable but a good proven boat. Find a good hull and rig and customize.

More:
IF you would accept a power boat, I would design something in the style of the Nimble boats:
http://nimbleboatworks.com/category/new-boats/

I am thinking of such a design since 20 years and will not need much convincing to draw one. I love those little trawlers.
I could design one with a motorsailor underbody, Atkins has designed a few with a box keel.
It will never be a great sailboat but the sail with stabilize the boat and should be considered a "get home" rig.
And that hull shape can be made from Al but I would design for my material, it's easy to adapt.

Jacques, it pains me to ever take exception to you but the Catalina 25 is trailerable in the swing keel configuration:

You are correct, I forgot that version existed. Thanks for the correction.

How close does this come to your ideal?

http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/ShoreLiner.html

I believe Jacques drafted his version of Shore Liner for another customer already.

By coincidence, I did the lofting of the Atkins Shoreliner for one of our builders: faired full size lofted lines and all hull panels.
Those files are available (for a fee) if somebody decides to build her and buy the plans from Atkins.

terrulian wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:04 am Jacques, it pains me to ever take exception to you but the Catalina 25 is trailerable in the swing keel configuration:

Yes, that's the one. There were a couple of Cat 25s on Craigslist here last summer; one was the swing keel version that needed some work for (IIRC) $6K, and another was the fin keel version for somewhat more. The ad for the fin keeler had pictures of it on a tall trailer, but I wouldn't have wanted to tow that setup any distance or try to actually launch it. From looking at ads here vs what the same boats go for down south, the Alaska price is usually around double what similar boats go for down south, and there's a lot less to choose from.

JoshuaAhab wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:37 pm How close does this come to your ideal?

http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/ShoreLiner.html

I believe Jacques drafted his version of Shore Liner for another customer already.

At 9' of beam that's not trailerable without an oversize permit. And I know that the state troopers actually look for that, because a guy I work for was ticketed for towing his powerboat which they said was over width. I believe he ended up selling that boat rather than deal with the hassle. And unfortunately I am going to be in Anchorage for the forseeable future, so trailerability is probably the most crucial of the items on my wish list. Within reason, towing weight is of less concern since I drive a relatively new crew cab pickup truck with a V-8 engine.

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:53 am More:
IF you would accept a power boat, I would design something in the style of the Nimble boats:
http://nimbleboatworks.com/category/new-boats/

I am thinking of such a design since 20 years and will not need much convincing to draw one. I love those little trawlers.
I could design one with a motorsailor underbody, Atkins has designed a few with a box keel.
It will never be a great sailboat but the sail with stabilize the boat and should be considered a "get home" rig.
And that hull shape can be made from Al but I would design for my material, it's easy to adapt.

I like the Nimble boats, but I do want a sailboat. The Nimble Arctic is another good one with a similar program to what I am after, but I think it has an inboard engine, and a rounded stern. Does not appear to sleep 4 either, but maybe with some rearrangement and/or folding bunks it could work. I don't have anything against power boats, I just don't think I would use one as much as I would use a sailboat. For a power boat you wouldn't necessarily need to design anything new, as I like your DE25 a lot... As my kids get bigger, I'd just make one of them sleep on an air mattress on the floor. 8^)

terrulian wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:07 am In terms of the inside steering station, I would just get a tiller pilot with a remote. Then perhaps modify the pop-top as you suggest. Otherwise, rigging a system with cables in a small space may clutter things a bit. If you figure it out, however, let us know your solution.

That's actually a really good idea if it works, thanks. Given that I will probably want a tiller pilot anyway, I can try that first and see how well it works. Then I would only have to worry about engine controls, but I think that can also be done electrically rather than with cables.

Anyway, thank you for all of the input. You are right that a scratch build would be a huge project, and while I would enjoy it a lot, starting with a factory boat makes a lot of sense, especially given I plan to buy one anyway to get a better feel for sailing the bigger boats.

Hey couple of ideas. Check with DMV but I think you can get a permit for less than 10 foot wide that is good for a year at a time. All you need is wide load signs and a warning light on the tow rig. But give them a call to make sure.
About what boat have you looked at the Woods multi hulls? The ones that fold could fit you bill, maybe.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:05 pm Hey couple of ideas. Check with DMV but I think you can get a permit for less than 10 foot wide that is good for a year at a time. All you need is wide load signs and a warning light on the tow rig. But give them a call to make sure.

Looking at what the DMV has on their website, there are also holiday and weekend restrictions that cover most of the big holidays that fall on a weekend (Labor Day, Memorial Day, etc) that could be a real pain to work around given I will probably want to tow the boat places and use it during some of those. But you are right in that it would open up a lot of boat designs that I can't consider as long as I insist on no oversize permit. One thing I have noticed as I have looked at different boat designs though, is that most of those boats that would need an oversize permit due to width, tend to be boats I would not want to trailer or rig/de-rig regularly. Kind of like how the VG26 study plans say she can be trailered home for wintering, but otherwise needs to live in the water.

About what boat have you looked at the Woods multi hulls? The ones that fold could fit you bill, maybe.

Yeah, I have spent some hours going over his site. They are tempting due to tons of interior space and a little extra speed is tough to argue with. I have similar concerns about trailering and launching from a ramp with the foldable cats as I do with fin keel monohulls. Another issue is with a monohull, I can fit a little heater in the cabin and warm all of the living/sleeping space, but on a cat with a cuddy, there are 3 interior spaces to be kept warm. Another is needing to go up on deck to access the hull containing the head late at night while everyone else is asleep. At the age my kids are right now, that would be no good, although they would certainly be old enough by the time I finished building for that to be less of a concern. And the all around visibility from the cuddy of something like a Wizard is pretty good as designed, so I could run the boat from inside in bad weather.

I'm not ruling a catamaran out, but with the above concerns plus increased build time, I am not convinced. Maybe a Wizard is something I would consider building while sailing the used monohull I will probably buy.

The Freedom cat ketch posted in Bogie's build thread reminded me of this boat that I liked:

https://bandbyachtdesigns.com/princess26/

Not a Bateau design and a bit too long for my current building space, but it looks like a neat boat. A year ago back east there was one built in foam sandwich for sale at a really attractive price, but I won't be in a position to buy anything anyway until a piece of property my brother and I have on the market sells.

Keep one thing in mind with those free standing masts: the forward mast is too close to the bow. It throws the boat off balance and in some cases, increase the pitching to a point where it becomes unsafe. It's a lot of weight in the bow. I sailed one of the first Freedoms, a 44 footer I believe and in some cases, the skipper did not want to go out because it was almost impossible to pass the bar. The boat stopped and lost steerage because of the excessive pitching.
Besides that, it is a great feature downwind, in Trade Winds conditions but then, a spi does the same job.

I still have a semi finished Nauticat styled design, 30':

except that I designed a box keel hull.
The proportions are the same than the McMurray boat but I drew a poop deck. Same rig.
The box keel drops the engine much lower = straight shaft, lower VCG, stiffer boat, beachable for maintenance with a 3' tide.
I owned a Nauticat 33 and have good memories of the boat.
I may finish that design before you sell your land.

That is one fine looking design Jacques That would make somebody a fine boat.

Not trailerable. But still a cool boat. Getting my entire wish list in one boat may indeed prove to not be possible or practical, but unfortunately I live too far from any usable water to buy or build a non trailerable boat. If it comes down to that, I will have to compromise somewhere else.

Netpackrat wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:36 pm Not trailerable.

Sorry, let's get the thread back on track.
The problem is that I do not have a design that fits all your requirements. I don't know if one exist.

While the 30' sailboat has been brought up could you either rethink finishing the one you started , or may be look at the pluses and minuses involved in turning the VG26 into a VG 30 or close to it ? I know one builder put a stright shaft inboard into a VG26 , but I think it was electric . I don't want to hijack the tread

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:16 pm Sorry, let's get the thread back on track.
The problem is that I do not have a design that fits all your requirements. I don't know if one exist.

I think probably my best bet at this point will be to buy an older production boat that comes as close as possible, and then in the process of learning to use it I will get a better idea of what I actually need. Or it's possible that my circumstances will eventually change such that trailering becomes not as important.

rick berrey wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:25 pmI know one builder put a stright shaft inboard into a VG26 , but I think it was electric.

Judging by Youtube, removing engines in favor of electric power seems to be the new age hipster thing to do to their sailboats. When somebody comments suggesting that maybe that's not the wisest thing to do to a blue water boat, invariably Slocum and the Pardeys get brought up, conveniently ignoring the fact that the Youtubers in question are neither Slocum nor the Pardeys.

It's kind of a sad day for me, but it does mean I can possibly move forward on this. Just signed the papers to sell our remote cabin on 10 acres; I didn't really want to sell it but my brother wanted out, and I didn't want to keep it badly enough to buy out his half. So I let it happen. He still says he wants to get something a little closer in but we'll see if he actually follows through with that.

For the time being, I doubt if I will do anything besides keep looking at listings, but now if I see something I like, I can move on it. There hasn't really been anything that I like for sale locally this year, but eventually something good will come up. There was one C25 a few months ago but it was a fixed keeler. Occasionally there will be a Balboa/Aquarius 25 come up for sale too, although I would rather stay with the manufacturer that's still in business all else being equal. Saw that Compac makes a pilothouse version of their 23' hull that checks almost all of the boxes, but they've only been making it since 2012 or so. All those boats are new enough to be well outside what I am willing to spend.

Still looking at plans, but a scratch build of that size isn't in the cards while I have my MGA torn apart. Maybe if I haven't found anything I like by the time it is finished I will press on with a build. One crummy thing about Alaska is there aren't really a lot of sailboats around, so when something does come on the market, it's usually priced about double what an equivalent boat would go for down south.

Given your requirements, I'd be looking for a trailer sailer that is both fast and seaworthy, is a centre boarder or has a swing keel, and that has a pop top that can remain raised when sailing so that it can be converted to a fixed pilothouse with opening ports.

Bruce Farr doesn't know how to design a slow or ugly sailboat. His Farr 7500 (pic below) and Noelex 25 (youtube below) are both trailer sailers that meet the above specs.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYFXwMraxtQ[/youtube]

As you want a trailerable boat what about this : You look down south for a suitable boat and trailer it to Alaska. Good testing for trailering or am I an idiot and know nothing of the Panamerican Highway except the name and it does not even reach as far as Alaska.

Or buy something in Seattle, stick the trailer on a barge and sail yourself up?

Both of those are possibilities, although I would be more inclined to stick the whole boat and trailer on a barge, than take a new-to-me boat up the inside passage and across the gulf. Probably a lot faster to do the drive both ways, and trailer it back, than to try sailing it. I think that's probably going against the prevailing winds and currents, too. As I understand it, to sail from the west coast to Alaska, it's generally easier to sail west to Hawaii, and then north from there.

One good option might be to wait until we are ready to replace my wife's vehicle, buy it down south, and use it to tow a boat up. We would probably be looking at something like my sister in law's Durango, or the new Grand Wagoneer, either of which would be well able to handle the boat. Possibly do some day sailing on the way up. 8^)

Re: the Farr designs... Yeah, Oz/NZ have some neat boats which are not too commonly seen elsewhere. I also like the Barros Pantanal 25; supposedly somebody in Brazil is producing them serially now. But I expect that would be a similar situation as the CP23 pilothouse were they available in the US, with all extant examples being too new to fall within what I am willing to spend. Right now I am expecting to pay between five and ten thousand for a reasonably decent boat, based on what I have seen so far. I'd pay more for something that meets my wants more exactly, but the 50K+ I have seen the CP23 PHs advertised at is way out of the question, especially since it's on the small side. Since it looks like I will have to substantially refit any boat I buy to get close, there seems to be little point in paying more.

I also like this idea. I have recently started building a vagabond20 and really enjoyed the work so far. I will probably build a second boat in a few years once I'm a little acquainted to weekends and holidays on board this boat. A larger/more comfortable boat that is possible to trail with a medium sized car opens up a lot of possibilities. In Mediterranean Sea, there are great shores to cruise and jump in the water, albeit at either one day of driving distance or 3-5 days of sailing. With a trailable boat, one can enjoy nice coasts for the majority of a 1-2 week holiday. With a large boat most of the time is spent just to get there & come back.

I'm thinking about somewhere in the 24-25ft range for my second boat, within trailer limits around 98-100 inches wide and trailer weight of less than 3000 pounds. An enlarged Vagabond23 can work with a heightened top, like a lighter & smaller Vagabond26. The whole flat deck configuration offers very little headroom and its not comfortable. A headroom around 5 feet 8+ inches around the middle cabin & galley allows one to walk without much trouble. The cabin configuration for a Catalina 25 or Vagabond 26 would be great, of course a little smaller due to the boat size. Possibly, Vagabond 23 cockpit height could be increased and cockpit length shortened by roughly one bulkhead to allow a double berth under. A wider transom above the waterline may help with a wider modern cockpit as well. Since the cabin will already lengthened by one bulkhead, maybe part of the total length can be added at cockpit, perhaps a skirt.

I would be really interested in building such a boat with the stich and glue method, would anyone else be interested in such a boat? Do you plan to create a new boat design like this somewhere between the Vagabond 23 and 26 Jacques?

There were larger Serpentaire designs besides the 22 which is what the Vagabond 23 is based on , and in stitch and glue . If you stretch the 23 I'm sure JM would advise , but I doubt you can get the head room you want .

The issue is less about head room, than about room for a head, and ability to steer the thing from inside if the weather turns nasty. They are solvable problems, but it will take a boat in the 25' range, which would be at the upper limit of my ability and space to build, and realistically I don't have the time to devote to it. I love building boats, but it's a lot easier to set aside my other projects for a few months here and there to build a smaller boat, than to dedicate the years that one of the large builds would take. Maybe a few years down the road I can entertain the idea. For now modifying an existing boat seems like the best plan.

I have been watching the Alaska craigslist for a while, but nothing really suitable has come up lately. There have been a few that were smaller than I want, some that are bigger and/or not really trailerable, but nothing in the sweet spot since we sold our cabin last fall which was the main thing that had to happen before I would consider getting a boat. Seen a few Mac 26s come up for sale now and then (Just, NO.) and one Balboa 23 that looked nice but was on the small side. There was a Balboa 25 recently but it looked pretty rough and was overpriced for a 50 year old boat in that condition IMO, even for Alaska.

Trailering one up from the 48 is still a possibility and we definitely need to replace my wife's Jeep soon, but now there's a nationwide shortage of vehicles apparently. Anyway I am not going to get into a rush about it. In the meantime if something like a decent Potter 19 were to come up for sale I would be tempted to buy it as a learning boat and then sell it on once I find what I am really looking for.

Netpackrat wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:03 am The issue is less about head room, than about room for a head, and ability to steer the thing from inside if the weather turns nasty. They are solvable problems, but it will take a boat in the 25' range, which would be at the upper limit of my ability and space to build, and realistically I don't have the time to devote to it. I love building boats, but it's a lot easier to set aside my other projects for a few months here and there to build a smaller boat, than to dedicate the years that one of the large builds would take. Maybe a few years down the road I can entertain the idea. For now modifying an existing boat seems like the best plan.

I have been watching the Alaska craigslist for a while, but nothing really suitable has come up lately. There have been a few that were smaller than I want, some that are bigger and/or not really trailerable, but nothing in the sweet spot since we sold our cabin last fall which was the main thing that had to happen before I would consider getting a boat. Seen a few Mac 26s come up for sale now and then (Just, NO.) and one Balboa 23 that looked nice but was on the small side. There was a Balboa 25 recently but it looked pretty rough and was overpriced for a 50 year old boat in that condition IMO, even for Alaska.

Trailering one up from the 48 is still a possibility and we definitely need to replace my wife's Jeep soon, but now there's a nationwide shortage of vehicles apparently. Anyway I am not going to get into a rush about it. In the meantime if something like a decent Potter 19 were to come up for sale I would be tempted to buy it as a learning boat and then sell it on once I find what I am really looking for.

You don't need inside steering stations. You can install autopilot and use a remote. No, you don't remote the speed, only the rudder, but you can get out of the elements some. It is a tradeoff, but keep in mind; you almost never run lines from inside; so this idea is a good one. The AP system and remotes run about $3000, and the mfd can be anywhere from a grand to 10 grand. I did not buy a remote for mine because they are $1600, so waiting until I decide I really want it. But I do need the engine killed if I am away from if ignition (fall in).

I agree with you on a bathroom or head. There is no way I'd bother without one. I shit in buckets a few times in an open skiff and it is just too much to ask of the womenfolk and plenty bad enough for the man. It doesn't have to be a great bathroom. Mine is just a bit below standing above the toilet, but noone stands on a toilet!

I watched a video of guys tacking off aluminum with some speed machine. Was it here? Build it. You may find a design and hire a naval architect to spec the hull. You could do the rest. All the magazines I have probably have one, I'll keep my eyes peeled for a developable plan.

I am fine with the remote control for a tiller pilot, I just need to have the ability to see where I am going. So some kind of raised pilothouse-esque section on the back of the cabin house, and a place to sit there. Can be a detachable or folding seat that takes down when not needed.

A bubble on the VG23 or any other small design would allow you to see where your going without adding height and wind shear .

Netpackrat wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:20 am I am fine with the remote control for a tiller pilot, I just need to have the ability to see where I am going. So some kind of raised pilothouse-esque section on the back of the cabin house, and a place to sit there. Can be a detachable or folding seat that takes down when not needed.

<spitballs>

My previous sailboat(Leisure 22, which is actually not a bad all-weather "trailerable") had a dodger and I made a "seat" that would fit into the companionway hatch slides. It allowed me to sit facing forward, protected, while my auto-tiller steered the boat. Not great in a deep heel but in a deep heel the autotiller didn't cut it anyway, you really needed to be in the cockpit hand-steering. But gentlemen don't sail upwind, so that shoudln't be an issue. But it wouldn't be hard to add a hard dodger to a boat like that and a seat in the companionway. My new boat is bridge-deck-traveler sheeted so it wouldn't work, you need either boom-end sheeting or house-top sheeting for that kind of setup to work.

</spitballs>

“Observation pod” is what I’ve seen the bubbles called when looking to source them.

I am always amazed by the lack of love sailors give to motorsailers. They are always saying they are not fish or fowl. And then they turn around and put dodgers and pop up hatches on their boats. They end up with a pilothouse, sort of, but one that is crappy built After spending some time crawling in and out of a traditional built sailboats companionway give me a pilothouse with only a couple of steps down from the cockpit any day.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:21 pm I am always amazed by the lack of love sailors give to motorsailers. They are always saying they are not fish or fowl. And then they turn around and put dodgers and pop up hatches on their boats. They end up with a pilothouse, sort of, but one that is crappy built After spending some time crawling in and out of a traditional built sailboats companionway give me a pilothouse with only a couple of steps down from the cockpit any day.

I have no qualms with motorsailers. Its motorsailors I cant stand.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:21 pm I am always amazed by the lack of love sailors give to motorsailers. They are always saying they are not fish or fowl. And then they turn around and put dodgers and pop up hatches on their boats. They end up with a pilothouse, sort of, but one that is crappy built After spending some time crawling in and out of a traditional built sailboats companionway give me a pilothouse with only a couple of steps down from the cockpit any day.

I think the reason you don't see more pilothouse sailboats, is it cuts into the interior volume quite a bit. So unless you are planning on sailing in a climate where you actually need a pilothouse, the more standard layout will maximize the amount of space available for interior accommodations.

Netpackrat wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:16 am

Fuzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:21 pm I am always amazed by the lack of love sailors give to motorsailers. They are always saying they are not fish or fowl. And then they turn around and put dodgers and pop up hatches on their boats. They end up with a pilothouse, sort of, but one that is crappy built After spending some time crawling in and out of a traditional built sailboats companionway give me a pilothouse with only a couple of steps down from the cockpit any day.

I think the reason you don't see more pilothouse sailboats, is it cuts into the interior volume quite a bit. So unless you are planning on sailing in a climate where you actually need a pilothouse, the more standard layout will maximize the amount of space available for interior accommodations.

Motor sailer and pilot house are different concepts mixed by lack of designs. Pilot houses add windage. And not in ways that are nice. The folks that are sailing sailing care about that and the limited weather advantages appeal to northern latitudes a lot more then southern. Ironically the sailing purists are more northern but then we are back to wind profile.

That said, all the pilot house boats here run AC in the summer. Therefore run motor. Therefore motor sail. Which mean they just motor. And a motor boat is cheaper to acquire than a similar sized (Interior space) sailboat.

That’s my take.

I always hear pilot houses add windage. But I look around and see lots of boats with canvas dodgers that add just as much. They just do a poor job of keeping you warm and dry. Plus hurt your visibility. Now granted my weather is just a tad cooler than most of you guys and that shapes my thinking some. The sailboats that do not have any canvas all seem to have three foot of growth on their bottoms. But then most sailboats do period.

You and I likely define sailing differently. If a boat has Bimini up its not safe to sail. Dodgers are to direct water away from working areas. If they are canvas they should be reduced until needed.

Now on race boats they are basically pilot houses. The new Vendee boats are completely enclosed and the older ones were only open aft. Same is true of everything racing the ocean that isn’t modeling a classic style.

Basically, a low profile pilot is best for extreme conditions but everyday sailors should need all that crap.

Probably doesn't match your needs, but thought of you when I saw this,

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... 9585bf8ea1

narfi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:25 am Probably doesn't match your needs, but thought of you when I saw this,

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... 9585bf8ea1

I'm not on failbook but that has also been on Craigslist for a while. It doesn't appear to be anywhere near trailerable width. Maybe a folding trimaran would be a possibility but for my purpose they seem to have most of the disadvantages of both cats and monos with few of the advantages of either.

Netpackrat wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:48 pm

narfi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:25 am Probably doesn't match your needs, but thought of you when I saw this,

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... 9585bf8ea1

I'm not on failbook but that has also been on Craigslist for a while. It doesn't appear to be anywhere near trailerable width. Maybe a folding trimaran would be a possibility but for my purpose they seem to have most of the disadvantages of both cats and monos with few of the advantages of either.

yeah.... road system isnt something I have to deal with

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:39 am You mentioned John Welsford. He is a real professional designer. I met him once, he knows what he is doing plus he is an experienced sailor.
I say professional because it matters when everybody who downloads Delft thinks he can design a boat.
JW has several very seaworthy designs that would fit the bill with always one or two of your requirements missing.

Interesting sidenote, a couple years ago I commented on a Youtube video wherein an Alaskan couple was showing off their newly built Welsford SCAMP. I mentioned that I had seen pictures of one built in aluminum, and I've thought about giving the same treatment to Welsford's 21 foot Penguin design. 2 years later, JW himself happened upon my comment and replied; "Welded aly will work fine for a Penguin. Go for it."

Not much has changed really in the used sailboat situation here. Started working on the MGA project in the garage again, but then I ended up with another one (basket case project) plus the MGTD that my brother and I own together in the garage. Eventually the TD is going to go to another family member but for now project space is tight. Going to keep plugging away and watching CL for the right boat but I don't expect anything will turn up until a day or two after I can commit to a build project.

Net here’s a thought, seen it done on some compac 16’s. But an older compac 23 which are beautiful little boats and modify it to have the pilothouse to your liking. Just a thought. It would minimize your downtime of having to build a boat from scratch.

That's a definite thought although I have never seen one of those for sale in AK. Took the family to Seward a couple weekends ago for a day trip to the Sea Life Center, and dragged them out onto a few of the floats in the harbor to look at sailboats, including one 32 footer that's been on Craigslist for a couple months. Some nice boats in the harbor there. Maybe at some point I will live where I can keep a boat in the water again. That would make the whole premise of this thread moot.