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Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:35 pm
by fallguy1000
Okay, this is another question for Richard really, but any ideas are really welcomed.
I want to build a table for the saloon. This table serves two purposes and requires a bit of wild functionality.
First, it is the base for the bed middle section. It will be on a drop pedestal.
The dimensions fully opened are 32x40.
The table will be on a mechanical lift or gas shock and become the dinette table when the dinette is not a bed.
But
I want to make the table so it can fold in on each side to make it more open if we are not having a meal. Just to make it easier to get in and out. The sides are 40" long or so.
So, I was thinking about making it so the middle of the table is 16" wide and each side can lift up and over 8" and fold over the middle section if we just wanted to leave it at 16" wide, or perhaps even have it be 24" wide in the middle with 4" wide flip ups, so it would be 24" by 40".
Unfortunately, I have never seen this done anywhere.
I don't want hinges to show on the top of the table in the fully open or hinged open position.
I can do a sketch, but basically, think of a 24" by 40" piece of table with two 4"x40" pieces sitting on top of each side. Probably be 3/4" thick unless some hardware requirement needed thicker material. I really like the stability of walnut for tables, so leaning to nut as well; despite the weight.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:36 pm
by fallguy1000
I can try a drawing tomorrow. Pretty tired now, but doing better today despite some still minor lung crackles and less coughing and no fever, but tons of headache.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:41 pm
by fallguy1000
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:04 am
by piperdown
https://www.kpetersen.com/economytablesdropleaf.htm
You can use different hinges to keep them hidden. I think you'll need some type of support bars. I don't think the hinges from the link you showed will support the load when using it as a bed.
How thick will it be?
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:11 am
by fallguy1000
piperdown wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:04 am
https://www.kpetersen.com/economytablesdropleaf.htm
You can use different hinges to keep them hidden. I think you'll need some type of support bars. I don't think the hinges from the link you showed will support the load when using it as a bed.
How thick will it be?
Hoping 3/4" as I have a lot of it.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:12 am
by piperdown
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:05 pm
by terrulian
I've seen a ton of different solutions to this problem which is common to all boats. His solution is very elegant but requires a base to mount the arms on, which won't work for your application, since you have to lower it for a bed.
How about this? You use the hinges he does, but instead of a base, you mount the table on a pedestal which can be removed to lower the top for the bed. To support the wings, mount a length of lumber, or better yet, two on each side, that extend to support the extra 4" and that are attached underneath the top with a swivel. An added possibility here is that the table top could be entirely removed and placed in a holder on a bulkhead so that the area would be completely open.
I'll be interested in what you decide. I've never seen any solution that completely solves all the issues and people have been doing this for decades.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:21 pm
by fallguy1000
Similar size or a bit smaller.
Yup. That is the wish.
I think I could do slides.
I doubt 3/4" thick nut would support those hinges....
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:51 pm
by Aripeka Angler
I would like to see a sketch of the table.
I might be able to help you with the hardware.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:52 pm
by Dan_Smullen
FWIW, I think the hinges are Tectus. Maybe Soss.
High level finish for sure.
Do the brackets stow elsewhere when the leaves are
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:25 am
by fallguy1000
Aripeka Angler wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:51 pm
I would like to see a sketch of the table.
I might be able to help you with the hardware.
I have been thinking about my table off and on and what I want to do now is mortise the hinges into the tabletop. This means I need to make at least part of the table or all of it solid.
The only question is how would I be able to lock it down?
Additionally, I want to make a table for the cockpit. Same stuff, like a small dining table for 2 or 4 wine glasses and a plate of snacks.
Solid teak shorts are $14/bf at Woodcraft now. But nervous about the edges blowing up and the weight of the teak.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:48 pm
by Evan_Gatehouse
The only question is how would I be able to lock it down?
barrel bolts on the underside?
For the small cockpit table - get your solid piece of teak and then route out the underside except at the edges, keeping the top say 1/4-3/8" thick. Saves you weight, but looks good. Maybe if you are supporting it on a solid pedestal or hinge leave that full thickness too.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:48 pm
by fallguy1000
Evan_Gatehouse wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:48 pm
The only question is how would I be able to lock it down?
barrel bolts on the underside?
For the small cockpit table - get your solid piece of teak and then route out the underside except at the edges, keeping the top say 1/4-3/8" thick. Saves you weight, but looks good. Maybe if you are supporting it on a solid pedestal or hinge leave that full thickness too.
Barrel bolts is perfect. Thanks.
I would be nervous about deformation routing out some wood to save weight, plus the biscuits for edge joining teak would be at 3/8". Thinking plywood is better with a lip to cover the edge.
But teak shorts are $14/bdft at Woodcraft...so tempting to go get some more for my folding table..
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:21 am
by Aripeka Angler
I got your pm, I didn’t notice this earlier sorry.
If you butt end to end, I’d stay away from the biscuits. A shiplap joint would be what I’d use.There are a dozen safe ways to make the cut, if you need advice on this, let me know.
If you can get laser straight edges, you might be able to get away with glued butt joints on the side edges. Again, I’d personally do something a bit more secure. I’d use a tongue and groove joint.
The next concern is glue. For conventional gluing, sand the areas to be glued and wipe down with acetone or lacquer. Immediately glue and clamp after the solvent flashes off. I’m about ready to go to my granddaughters first birthday party so I’ll check back later for more input.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:50 am
by fallguy1000
Aripeka Angler wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:21 am
I got your pm, I didn’t notice this earlier sorry.
If you butt end to end, I’d stay away from the biscuits. A shiplap joint would be what I’d use.There are a dozen safe ways to make the cut, if you need advice on this, let me know.
If you can get laser straight edges, you might be able to get away with glued butt joints on the side edges. Again, I’d personally do something a bit more secure. I’d use a tongue and groove joint.
The next concern is glue. For conventional gluing, sand the areas to be glued and wipe down with acetone or lacquer. Immediately glue and clamp after the solvent flashes off. I’m about ready to go to my granddaughters first birthday party so I’ll check back later for more input.
Thanks Richard.
My first question is about the thicknesses and choice of lumbers.
For the tabletops and countertops; 3/4" hardwood solid or plywood are really heavy. Let's presume I buy one piece of teak plywood at 1/2". Then let's presume I make all three items from that piece.
I want hinges on top of the saloon table; so the plywood is only usable for part of it.
The countertop will use 24"x72" of the panel; leaving me a 2x2 piece on one end and a 2x8 piece off the side.
The 2x2 piece could be my outside table, but what a pita to edge finish. Tape on veneer? Nah. I think I'd go solid for the small outdoor table and use your t&g or your shiplap. Only question is glue.
Then for the countertop; ez. Just put an edge board on it with a solid countertop lip like many boats.
Then the trickier bit is my hinges on top table.
Let's make some assumptions. 32" wide length 40" can't remember the real length now
If I want say a 6" edge lift on each side; the edges would be built of solid teak, leaving 20" for the center section. Hinges of 2" require say a 4" piece of solid teak, leaving only 16" for the ply panel. Almost seems stupid at this point to try to save a few pounds. Table should be made solid it appears. I have a 24" drum sander. So, I could actually run the table center through.
I think you have helped me immensely. Just need to pin the joinery and the glues. Epoxy wil fail on edges outside table. Real world knowledge.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:54 am
by fallguy1000
Any reason I can't make my own teak panel?
I even have vacuum.
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/teak ... c23f92191d#
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:00 pm
by fallguy1000
Richard, do you know if I can epoxy a paper backed veneer down under vacuum? Obviously some squeezeout issues.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:24 pm
by Aripeka Angler
fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:50 am
Aripeka Angler wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:21 am
I got your pm, I didn’t notice this earlier sorry.
If you butt end to end, I’d stay away from the biscuits. A shiplap joint would be what I’d use.There are a dozen safe ways to make the cut, if you need advice on this, let me know.
If you can get laser straight edges, you might be able to get away with glued butt joints on the side edges. Again, I’d personally do something a bit more secure. I’d use a tongue and groove joint.
The next concern is glue. For conventional gluing, sand the areas to be glued and wipe down with acetone or lacquer. Immediately glue and clamp after the solvent flashes off. I’m about ready to go to my granddaughters first birthday party so I’ll check back later for more input.
Thanks Richard.
My first question is about the thicknesses and choice of lumbers.
For the tabletops and countertops; 3/4" hardwood solid or plywood are really heavy. Let's presume I buy one piece of teak plywood at 1/2". Then let's presume I make all three items from that piece.
I want hinges on top of the saloon table; so the plywood is only usable for part of it.
You can mount hinges in ply. Just mortice them in and use machine screws and t-nuts underneath.
The countertop will use 24"x72" of the panel; leaving me a 2x2 piece on one end and a 2x8 piece off the side.
The 2x2 piece could be my outside table, but what a pita to edge finish. Tape on veneer? Nah. I think I'd go solid for the small outdoor table and use your t&g or your shiplap. Only question is glue.
I’d go solid. Resorcinol glue will hold with the aforementioned solvent prep.
Then for the countertop; ez. Just put an edge board on it with a solid countertop lip like many boats.
Then the trickier bit is my hinges on top table.
Let's make some assumptions. 32" wide length 40" can't remember the real length now
If I want say a 6" edge lift on each side; the edges would be built of solid teak, leaving 20" for the center section. Hinges of 2" require say a 4" piece of solid teak, leaving only 16" for the ply panel. Almost seems stupid at this point to try to save a few pounds. Table should be made solid it appears. I have a 24" drum sander. So, I could actually run the table center through.
I’m not exactly understanding.
I think you have helped me immensely. Just need to pin the joinery and the glues. Epoxy wil fail on edges outside table. Real world knowledge.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:27 pm
by Aripeka Angler
I’d buy teak plywood, you are going to come out cheaper in the long run.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:20 pm
by fallguy1000
I had a change of heart. Saw this Sapele at Woodcraft for $8/bdft
Gonna make all the tables from sapele.
Try building a countertop with sapele veneer on okume.
Maybe my bathroom door will be sapele, too.
I will sketch the table.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:51 pm
by Aripeka Angler
fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:20 pm
I had a change of heart. Saw this Sapele at Woodcraft for $8/bdft
Gonna make all the tables from sapele.
Try building a countertop with sapele veneer on okume.
Maybe my bathroom door will be sapele, too.
I will sketch the table.F0339BB0-B3F3-4555-9409-9D65B2D0C0FA.jpeg
Great decision. I personally don’t like end grain butt joints in smaller pieces.
With the sapele you can use epoxy for gluing without oil worries.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:33 pm
by fallguy1000
I still want some sapele plywood or to make my own.
There is a place here, but mdf core
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:04 pm
by fallguy1000
These pictures are more fun than sketching.
I don't like the wide rim in the small position, but the basic concept is good. I also don't see how they lock down; I would use a barrel bolt or four on the edges.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:09 pm
by fallguy1000
The saloon table is 42" long by 32" wide. If you do it in quarters; you'd flip 8" each side onto the center 16" section. Two hinges is a bit shy; need 3 per side.
The flipped up rim is too deep. I might go no rim and a nice 3/8" radius each side all around.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:25 am
by Aripeka Angler
Now I see what you have up your sleeve. Pretty cool.
The edge stiffeners on the table will add a lot of strength.
Also, they would keep things in place when it’s choppy. (folded up mode)
When the leaves are folded down the drops hold the table flat without locking hardware.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:36 am
by fallguy1000
Aripeka Angler wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:25 am
Now I see what you have up your sleeve. Pretty cool.
The edge stiffeners on the table will add a lot of strength.
Also, they would keep things in place when it’s choppy. (folded up mode)
When the leaves are folded down the drops hold the table flat without locking hardware.
Good Morning Richard!
Oh, I see what you mean about the edge stiffeners holding the table up. I need to lock it down because people will sit up to the table edge. Since the table edge is doubling as a bed support, I can't keep the table edge even an inch away from the seat edge below. I suppose I could make a flip up panel down below for the seat edge, but ideally a fixed table and a fixed seat edge are in the same plane.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:50 am
by Aripeka Angler
Good morning back at you.
The barrel bolts could go on the inside of the end drops. They would be less noticeable.
I‘m thinking if you could get by without the notched corners it would be stronger.
Maybe another hinge in the center if you are going to be sitting on it...
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:27 am
by fallguy1000
Aripeka Angler wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:50 am
Good morning back at you.
The barrel bolts could go on the inside of the end drops. They would be less noticeable.
I‘m thinking if you could get by without the notched corners it would be stronger.
Maybe another hinge in the center if you are going to be sitting on it...
Planned for 3 hinges. I wasn't going to do end supports or edge supports, but the place where people would be sitting is on the 32" end (16-8-8) and the edge supports would help keep any chance of edge joins failing. Thanks for the conversation. I think the only question is how to attach the supports. If I put them on the sides; then I will drop the cleat for the dropdown.
I had not considered hinging the table the other way, but it could be done. Then, when sitting; you'd be on 25% of 42", or about a 10" wide board on a 32" span. But it sort of reduces the easy to get in and out purpose of the fly leafs.
Hopefully I am making sense here. Now thinking aloud, if I sit on an 8" wide board; it will need the edge supports because it will be 21" less the pedestal top radius from base.
Oh, you really got me thinking now. Thanks.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:28 am
by Aripeka Angler
Been pondering barrel bolts from an altitude of 30,000 feet.
If you squared up the drops, this would work better with no rattle. Much stronger.
Link with info...
http://nuntiusbrokers.com/Boat-Parts-31 ... amp-45537/
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:45 am
by fallguy1000
Wife always helps.
The table will fly leaf the long way to make it easier to get in and out.
Just need to determine the edge joinery and the support joinery.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:47 am
by fallguy1000
Funny, was thinking same.
I was hoping to keep the supports rather narrow like 1.5" and the lock within that. I will see what these are that you linked.
Hope you have a great trip and get some fishing in. Thanks, again.
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:47 am
by fallguy1000
28mm - perfect
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:50 am
by fallguy1000
Richard-any chance you have any idea how to latch this thing?
I'll add a pic in a bit.
https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.ph ... ox#p453823
Re: Foldover, shrinkable table
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:59 am
by Aripeka Angler
Butt joint, epoxy glue, drill, screw and plug with mahogany dowels from below.
You could lock miter the supports but it’s probably not worth the trouble.
I through doweled the rub rail on my strip canoe. Barely noticeable and it’s strong as heck...