Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

I spoke with Jacques about a boat to do the Great Loop on. It seems after some discussion on this forum, some research and such that plans for the perfect hull do not exist. therefore I am starting this thread were we can give our opinions and ideas so that maybe we can get a design that fits the home builder and the great loop and get more hand built cruisers on their way.

I have spent the last year looking into doing this trip with my wife and have come to the conclusion that a great loop boat for us needs 4 basic requirements.

1. Fuel efficiency -- With the loop being 5500+ miles a boat that gets hull speed at 1-1.5 GPH and does 7-8 knots would be ideal. this would keep our fuel bill under $3000 for the entire trip.

2. Draft -- While most everywhere we will be has a minimum depth of 6' keeping the draft to 30" or less would be ideal and open up some anchorages that might not be as accessible in a deeper draft boat.

3. Power -- would like to run dual 60hp outboards on the stern. While I am sure hull speed will be easily achieved with much less horsepower there are a few crossings where the ability to go faster would be very useful to outrun weather.

4. topside -- would like the cabin to be such that an upper station/flybridge on the roof could be done without it being unstable. at a minimum the roof should have the ability to carry a 12' rib and solar panels to help reduce or eliminate the need for a generator onboard.

The TT35 from Great Harbour is a very close fit in my mind to these perfect solutions but carries a price tag of over $250,000 new. Hoping to be able to build hull from Plywood, epoxy and glass with the upper structure the same or using foam core to help lower the center of gravity.

Will be an interesting thread Shug21.

Your brief is clear enough, save one piece of critical information.

With you doing the building, what is your total out of pocket budget (materials, machinery, electrical, plumbing, fittings, paint etc)?

Skoota 28 will meet all those. Beautiful boat to hang out on. You will get 5mpg at cruise. 1100 gallons. Hard to beat. Draft less than 20". Beachable. Max power is twin 60s, but you would get decent weather speeds with 40s. The Skootas use helm risers, no fly. You are up high with a slight blind in front. Stability no issue. My Skoota no generator onboard; solar and power from the 90s enough to run autopilot in windy seas.

Budget is probably about 50k before power; perhaps a bit less depending on fitouts.

Interesting thread!

I have only one comment at this point - when you look like spending $100k on a boat, why would keeping the fuel cost for the entire trip be more than a passing thought?

I really enjoy boat building and then using them but folks really need to understand what they are getting into when they think about building a larger boat. Just ask Fallguy how many man hours he has in his boat now and he is not done. Same for Knottybuoyz.

BarraMan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:07 am Interesting thread!

I have only one comment at this point - when you look like spending $100k on a boat, why would keeping the fuel cost for the entire trip be more than a passing thought?

I want to take my boat to Alaska. It isn't just about cost of fuel, but also range of vessel. My tanks are 128 gallons. At $4, that is $500 per fill up from empty. Or 1/2% of the build budget. Range say about 500, say 4 mpg. Inside passage plus or minus is about 5 fills. Plenty of cost; not too many stops. If I have a boat with 2mpg economy, twice as many stops, same trip costs $5000; not $2500.

Believe it or not, I am cheap! Plus me and the wife can stop at a b&b or 3 with the money saved on fuel!

Agreed on the fuel cost - it is negligible in the total scope of a boat build and a 6mo - 2yr trip. But range does matter - more a function of capacity / speed / displacement.

I think the top speed and viable "high cruise" speed need to also be specified - huge impact on displacement and hull form. As well as other water conditions that the boat may eventually end up in. Whether it should be trailerable (with or without special permits), or transportable (via professional shipper).

I really like the idea of a flying bridge with shade (bimini) for this type of trip, but its a big compromise on the design. TT35 has an optional one.

12' rib on the roof is a big weight up there, plus some method to hoist it up. I have posted elsewhere on a similar thread, saw a dingy pulled up through the transom of a wide-set twin outboard rig. Pretty simple, but you would need to push it out at every anchorage to use the cockpit.

We should collapse the handful of threads on this topic to one, or at least reference link, for a cohesive discussion.

For me I would want a mid-teens (mph) cruise, with low-20s top speed. Trailerable on twin axle (say 7500lb) with permits (up to 10' beam). No generator (batteries have come a long way), composting toilet. Small AC for shore power only. 300mi range, maybe more. Caribbean capable.

see p5+ here https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.ph ... 4&start=40

Let's refine the requirements.

Range matters, fuel economy is less important.

Speed is only required for some open water passages but it is very important. Let's say up to 12 knots but cruise at 7 knots.

Air clearance matters very much for the bridges, you don't want to go from waiting for one bridge for 30 minutes to move 1 mile further and wait again for one hour. 13' max.

Nobody mentions towing capability.
If you want to do the loop in one season, you will rush from one port to the next and not enjoy it much. I think that a 3 year loop is ideal to enjoy the cruise. That means you have to winterize the boat 2 or 3 times. If you can tow her yourself, you will save a lot on maintenance. Yards are very expensive but it is easy to find somebody to tow your 10' wide boat to a less expensive warehouse or to your home.

AC is very important and that means, in many cases, a generator. A small 3KW gas generator is sufficient for a 15K AC unit. If you don;t have AC, don't count on your wife's enthusiasm to join the trip.

Storage: fresh water, black water, personal effects. That is often overlooked on production boats. Go to a boat show and ask to see the garbage can or the dirty laundry hamper.

Shallow draft is easy to achieve but did anybody think of a box keel like on my TW28? Enormous storage, much lower CG for stability and being able to beach the boat upright on it's keel for bottom cleaning, prop repair etc. matters. And back to transportation and storage: it helps.

Cost will limit the size but you can't live aboard and enjoy it unless you have separate sleeping quarters and a decent bathroom and shower. That means minimum 30', probably 35.
Much larger becomes too expensive and let's keep an eye on max. size of anchors: a 35 footer will be happy with a 35 lbs anchor without a wind lass. Longer does not mean bigger and a medium light long boat is attractive for speed and living space but let's keep in mind marina cost by the foot. Not too light to be able to document the boat = 5 metric tons is attractive.

Add to the list if you want but know that it will be give and take.

Could a stepped mast be added for added range along the Gulf Coast or Island hopping ?

If only for the looks, I like a mast. It will help a little bit with rolling but not much. It may be required if we have a dinghy. It should be in a tabernacle, easy to lower and raise.

I like the idea of shallow draft be it outboards or a box keel. Not only does it open up more areas but it helps reduce the stress of running aground. And there is a safety gain as well. If you are anchored in 3 feet or less there will be much less chance of being run over at night by large craft.
I love the idea of doing the loop but for me it would have to be on a boat I could buy, do the loop and sell when done. The hard part would be selling the boat and not taking a huge beating.

I like the layout of Ted Brewers " Quite Times " if the head were pushed back . I would like the head as far away from where I am cooking and sleeping . 33'11" is close to the sweet spot of 32/33 , and the other numbers look good to me as well . I wouldn't want to take it into the gulf , it needs to be more trawler like . I could live with the over all look of the boat .

rick berrey wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:54 pm I like the layout of Ted Brewers " Quite Times " if the head were pushed back . I would like the head as far away from where I am cooking and sleeping . 33'11" is close to the sweet spot of 32/33 , and the other numbers look good to me as well . I wouldn't want to take it into the gulf , it needs to be more trawler like . I could live with the over all look of the boat .

That business of worry about the head is overrated. I was going to put the head in a hull with 4-5 ladder runs each way. Wife said nope; main cabin. It is like 3 feet from the head to the galley and 3 feet head to bed. It is deal with by a noisy fan.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:26 pm I like the idea of shallow draft be it outboards or a box keel. Not only does it open up more areas but it helps reduce the stress of running aground. And there is a safety gain as well. If you are anchored in 3 feet or less there will be much less chance of being run over at night by large craft.
I love the idea of doing the loop but for me it would have to be on a boat I could buy, do the loop and sell when done. The hard part would be selling the boat and not taking a huge beating.

Me too!

What is the passion? To do the Great Loop or build a BIG boat? Or are you someone who has always dreamed of building a big boat TO DO the Great Loop? It is a huge commitment to do both!

I don't buy that "its cheaper to build a boat than to buy one", especially a BIG boat - and more so if you opt for the best of everything. How do I know? You might take a $$ hit buying and selling a boat after completing the trip, but I don't think it will be any bigger than selling an owner built boat after the trip. If the plan is to keep it forever, than its a non-issue.

As I work to completely finish my boat, after putting it on the water three years ago, I sometimes wish I had just bought one. However, I have wanted to build a boat since I was about 5 yrs old. I don't even need it, because I have another bought boat - admittedly much smaller. But I love my big boat and never plan to sell it.

I have helped build one larger boat and built one myself. The one I built was 32x13. I figure I had 3500-4000 man hours in it. That was work time and not ponder time. At this point in life I ain't got that left in me Now if I was younger and wanted a speciality boat something like Fallguys it would be a different story. Don't get me wrong it is a great project and very rewarding but it is a huge commitment of both time and money.
.

I'd venture that none of us joined this forum for financial prudence. Buying used, using, and selling used is by far the least time and net cost. A friend's dad bought a 36 Monk, owned it for a few years, did ICW / Canada / Caribbean, and sold it mostly whole.

Maybe I'm still young but I would want to go faster than 8-9kt. If nothing else to run from storms and avoid overnights on longer passages. The "LDL" type boats are right in the sweet range, cruising in mid-teens. Just have to be narrow and light.

I've been tracking design parameters from boats in this regime, just to get a feel for what is feasible:


Sweet spot for me is somewhere around 35x9, twin 60s or 70s, under 7000lb loaded. I might have to accept building something like this myself is unrealistic...can higher day help for the hard labor, or there are semi-custom builders in Aluminum that can knock out the structure and I can do interior & rigging. Still a dream quite a few years off.

I'm one of those tragics who would rather a buy at a good price a quality used boat designed and built by masters, do the Great Loop in style over a number of years, then sell for much the same price.

Life's far too short to spend years DIY building a large boat for a speciality cruise.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/j ... r-3649576/

It has been one of my life ambitions to do the Great Loop. For many years prior to my retirement it was one of my motivators.

Even where I relocated to along the East Coast and the Intercoastal waterway was partially predicated on this ambition.

I too contemplated building a boat for this dream trip. Over five years were spent planning and researching about the trip. Bought books and maps and told my family and friends about my dream. Set up a time frame and a goal date to begin the trip.

Even though I have a boat that would be capable of doing the trip it wasn’t designed for that type of a voyage and lacks many of the creature comforts that would make an extended trip more pleasurable.

I looked for a boat that would work and be efficient. Some people advocate using a sailboat and motor sailing for efficiency, but then you have to unstep the mast in the Great Lakes because of bridges. Trawlers are frequently used, but depending on the design they may not have a very shallow draft which limits where and how you can go.

As the goal date got nearer my friends and family started volunteering to accompany me for specific parts of the trip. All except one person. My wife. She was not as excited about the trip as I was. She gets seasick. She didn’t want to be away for months and months at a time.

So then I started to contemplate doing the trip by myself and having her join me for certain parts of the trip.

The goal date got nearer and then was passed.

I have not yet been able to embark on this dream trip. But the dreams sustained me and gave me something to look forward to. The dream has not been completely abandoned though. I’m still hopeful that at some future point the Great Loop cruise will occur.

I applaud those of you who have completed this adventure and wish success to those that will embark on this dream trip in the future.

About building: I agree with Glossieblack that the most economical way to realize that project is to buy a used trawler and resell it once the Loop is completed but my design would be for those who want to keep their boat, have specific requirements and want to do more than the Great Loop.
That design would be a great live aboard able to cruise to the Bahamas or cruise along the coast. I would design a simple and economical boat with many options. You could keep her very simple or make her very fancy.

Let's see what more potential builders think.

So Gulf and Bahamas will be part of the criteria ? 8 mi to 12 mi speed , under 10,000 displacement , 33' + or - , less than 10' beam , I like the bunk beds in the B&G trawlers , could leave a single birth area to be used for other uses , draft 3' + or - , box keel , mast ,13' + or - clearance , something between a river boat and passage maker ? range 400 mi to 500 mi , live aboard for two .

For me about the cheapest and smallest Great Looper the child bride and I could live with would be along the lines of the Ben Ostlund deigned Fairchild-built Scout.

It has good headroom and a draft of 2'4". Instead of having the usual V-berths forward followed by a separate main saloon followed above by a wheelhouse, this boat is divided into just two spaces: settee berths and a galley below and a helm station and seating area topside.

The downside of the concept is the absence of a dedicated sleeping cabin. For me the significant upside is that such a concept is 'within reach' buildable. I'm guessing she'd be a slightly easier build that TW28?

Most were built as power boats, a few as motor sailers. It looks as though as a design tweak could switch from inboard to outboard?

The you tube video is of a motor boat version, the pics of a motor sailer.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uybXyqpevRo[/youtube]

glossieblack wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:45 pm For me about the cheapest and smallest Great Looper the child bride and I could live with would be along the lines of the Ben Ostlund deigned Fairchild-built Scout.

It has good headroom and a draft of 2'4". Instead of having the usual V-berths forward followed by a separate main saloon followed above by a wheelhouse, this boat is divided into just two spaces: settee berths and a galley below and a helm station and seating area topside.

The downside of the concept is the absence of a dedicated sleeping cabin. For me the significant upside is that such a concept is 'within reach' buildable. I'm guessing she'd be a slightly easier build that TW28?

Most were built as power boats, a few as motor sailers. It looks as though as a design tweak could switch from inboard to outboard?

The you tube video is of a motor boat version, the pics of a motor sailer.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uybXyqpevRo[/youtube]

My boat doesn't have a dedicated sleeping cabin. The two small cabins in the hulls are sort of, but they are fisherman singles. The main cabin is quite small, but the view and handling of the boat are going to be worth it..I hope.

And as a fishing platform; it should be great.

Wow, those look small for any extended voyage. From looking at trawlers over the years (yes Jacques I have looked at them, laugh all you want), anything less than mid to upper 30s is not going to be comfortable for a long passage. Consider that, for a long passage, you will likely have family or friends come visit at some point, and you need room to accommodate them.

[EDIT: removed some comments which, as pointed out below, were not germane and in retrospect did not read as intended.]

I have also observed that if the project takes more than a year, it is not likely to be finished (there are of course exceptions - some guy built a 35 foot cedar strip sailing yacht which took him over a decade). Finding space for such a project is challenging - I have a 40'x24' workshop, building 35' boat in there would be tight when you consider storage, equipment and the need to walk around - you need a lot of storage for the materials in such a project. One of two things generally happen: a) the builder loses access to the large space for the project or b) life situations change and they can no longer commit the time/resources needed to make progress. I see the same in boat restoration projects, if it takes longer than 6 months to a year, it often does not complete.

Anyway, back to the design. I love the idea of a loop trawler. A trawler is great as part of a larger mission (doing the loop or there is a family of 4 living on a trawler making youtube videos, so that is part of a larger mission). As a "sit in a slip", weekend boat, she is pretty limited. And whether we like it or not, most people are locked into a 5 day work week and 2 day weekend cycle. Even if one is retired, many of the people with whom one interacts are on that schedule - doctors, family, government entities, boat yard folks, auto mechanics etc. So I would probably get one cheap, fix it up a bit, do my thing and get out of it. I see a fair number of them for reasonable prices where they look structurally solid but need some cleanup or engine updates. There is just not a large market for slow, lumbering boats, particularly when considering slip fees..

1. Larry A, let's forget our past disagreements and focus on this project. I respect your opinion, that's all that matters.

2. Scout 30 concept: I love that boat, have looked at it before but . . .
I like the forward head very much. The saloon is great, cockpit is fantastic, boat shape and styling with the raised deck is perfect but not many are going to accept to sleep in the saloon.
My wife loves boating but she would never go on a long trip if we did not have he following:
- a separate sleeping cabin
- a large head with shower
- a saloon where we can sit comfortably.
That works in the Scout30 except for the separate cabin.
All that is possible in a 30 footer with a 12' beam but with a 10' beam, we need to stretch the hull to about 35'.
The sleeping bunks in the saloon are the killer. I would live in there alone but most couples will not.
The extra bunks for occasional visitors are not a big problem. In the Scout30, I suppose that the backrest of the bunks flip up to make spare bunks. I would not draw them anyway. Anybody who has lived on a 30' boat with 4 persons for more than a week-end will understand. It's the best way to loose your friends or to argue with family. It will be a two persons boat.

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:31 am 1. Larry A, let's forget our past disagreements and focus on this project. I respect your opinion, that's all that matters.

I was not implying disagreement, my apologies if that came through in my post, I don't really remember them that way.... I thought they were very educational discussions (me learning, and you teaching). I guess I did use the word "debates" but I meant that in the most positive way - you know, exchanging of ideas, points and counter points. All boats are compromises of course.

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:31 am Anybody who has lived on a 30' boat with 4 persons for more than a week-end will understand. It's the best way to loose your friends or to argue with family. It will be a two persons boat.

Yup, completely agree. And I agree with your wife's 3 bullets - probably would say a standing shower even (not for standing use underway of course).

If the man snores or like me uses a Cpap the wife is not going to like sleeping right next to you night after night. Having two decent sleeping areas is a biggy to me. And many times the dinning area does not convert to a really nice sleeping spot. I know that is hard to get in a sub 30 foot boat but it would be very nice to have. To me long and slim is a better boat but it will drive the slip cost up.

I have said before that I have had a boat in me that needed to get out!

About 20 yrs ago, me being me, that was wanting to be expressed as a cruising trawler. I even bought the study plans for the Glen-L Klondike - a nice 50 footer!



While I can't say that common sense prevailed, a lack of time and money did - and I have spent the last 10 years or so being grateful that I never started that project!

Clearly the majority of contributors to this thread feel that a Great Looper needs dedicated sleeping quarters, and hence a boat at least 33' long and probably 9-10' wide boat will be required. No argument from me that a Looper of this size would be nice, however I suspect few such DIY projects will ever be finished and splashed.

Experience tells me that dedicated sleeping quarters is nice to have, but not must have. The child bride and I have spent a serious part of most of the past thirty years live-aboard cruising up and down the exposed east coast of Australia, in boats ranging from 26' to 44'. Every cruise has been a privileged joy. Yet not one the boats had a dedicated sleeping cabin we used. A few had them, but we used the cabin for storage instead. By choice In the larger boats we preferred sleeping in quarter berths that were part of the mid-ships saloon, because the motion there was more comfortable. In the mid sized boats, by choice we preferred using mid-ships saloon settees to lounge on by day and sleep on by night.

Which is why I keep veering back to a 30' Scout type, but with a tweaked forepeak head that includes a shower. Because it's 'within reach' buildable, and would be comfortably liveable. I recognise that many will require dedicated sleeping quarters however. What I'm advocating here plans is for an entry level Looper, as well as for bigger boat(s) for those with the budget and fortitude to build them.

Asymmetrical power cat is a novel approach to similar goals

https://aspenpowercatamarans.com/c107/

37x10. Expensive.

If a catamaran is considered, the Skoota will be a good choice.

Here's an entry-entry level Great Looper. Her prototype was sailed and rowed around the Great Loop by adventurer and photographer John Guider over a number of seasons. The centreboard swings up, and the rudder is a retractable cassette.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/AlL3bQqYiv8[/youtube]

glossieblack wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:47 am Here's an entry-entry level Great Looper. Her prototype was sailed and rowed around the Great Loop by adventurer and photographer John Guider over a number of seasons. The centreboard swings up, and the rudder is a retractable cassette.

No thanks. You see those sailing parkas? They don't even have sitting room to crap by the looks of her. That is personal punishment. I wonder what he did to deserve it.

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:53 am

glossieblack wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:47 am Here's an entry-entry level Great Looper. Her prototype was sailed and rowed around the Great Loop by adventurer and photographer John Guider over a number of seasons. The centreboard swings up, and the rudder is a retractable cassette.

No thanks. You see those sailing parkas? They don't even have sitting room to crap by the looks of her. That is personal punishment. I wonder what he did to deserve it.

I rather like that design

As to dedication... over the high side using one of those bagging seats for hiking. If you are far enough off shore, the bag is optional.

If my 580 plans don't come together, I might have to look into one of these guys for simple offshore camping trips.

I have been thinking about this trip for several years and while ai haven’t built a boat yet. I have spent plenty of time out at sea on much larger boats(580 ft submarine ). I’ve talked to my wife and we have 2 younger kids. So even if it took me 6-7 years to build it. I would still need sleeping arrangements for two kids. And they would have to be reasonable to set up daily. Full bathroom, and some spaces where people can hang out comfortably. We are located on the Mohawk River in upstate NY, so we can di the whole northern section over summers when the kids are off school. And maybe have it delivered to start a southern section. There also could be fun trips up to Montreal and out the St Laurence. Plenty of trips through the canals exploring the finger lakes, Lake Champlain, etc. And after the kids are out of high school we plan to move south and I see plenty of Bahama, gulf trips fishing, and time in the keys. The way I look at this boat would be it isn’t for someone to build this boat, do the loop and then sell right away. Its build a boat that can do the loop as well as explore the whole east half of North America. I know this design is a few years off, so I might build a DE25 and explore up here while I’m waiting and then do the great lakes part and other parts of the loop after this design is out. Thanks for keeping the innovation going!

jonnymac wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:10 pm I know this design is a few years off, so I might build a DE25 and explore up here while I’m waiting and then do the great lakes part and other parts of the loop after this design is out. Thanks for keeping the innovation going!

Welcome to the forum!

thanks. After lurking for like 10 years

The Skoota 36 is a hell of a boat. Just sayin. I could not build it cuz it wouldn't fit in my building or out the driveway.

I love this stuff. A little personal punishment is good for the soul.
I'd enter the R2AK or that one they have in Florida if I was 1/2 my age.
I took my V10 rowing last weekend and between portage to the shore and a not very long trip in unchallenging conditions, I felt 85. I'm going to chalk it up to not having a proper breakfast.

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:48 pm The Skoota 36 is a hell of a boat. Just sayin. I could not build it cuz it wouldn't fit in my building or out the driveway.

I think the Skoota cabin looks like the top half of a Chevy Astro van! I loved my 'stro but don't like the look on a boat.

Maybe yours will make me change my mind when you get it done.

terrulian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:51 pm I love this stuff. A little personal punishment is good for the soul.
I'd enter the R2AK or that one they have in Florida if I was 1/2 my age.
I took my V10 rowing last weekend and between portage to the shore and a not very long trip in unchallenging conditions, I felt 85. I'm going to chalk it up to not having a proper breakfast.

COVID idleness has reduced your muscle efficiency

BB Sig wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:12 pm

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:48 pm The Skoota 36 is a hell of a boat. Just sayin. I could not build it cuz it wouldn't fit in my building or out the driveway.

I think the Skoota cabin looks like the top half of a Chevy Astro van! I loved my 'stro but don't like the look on a boat.

Maybe yours will make me change my mind when you get it done.

Go see the video link on my thread. It looks pretty boxy. But I am all about function.

terrulian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:51 pm I love this stuff. A little personal punishment is good for the soul.
I'd enter the R2AK or that one they have in Florida if I was 1/2 my age.
I took my V10 rowing last weekend and between portage to the shore and a not very long trip in unchallenging conditions, I felt 85. I'm going to chalk it up to not having a proper breakfast.

R2AK might be kind of cool but I would have to ship the boat twice. Once to WA, and then home from KTN. Cool thing though is I have family in both places, so it could sit at either end for a while. Not sure if I could get the time off, either.

COVID idleness has reduced your muscle efficiency

This is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, unlike old age, it can theoretically be reversed. On the other, I'm the one that will have to reverse it!

Did we ever get to a some use case requirements? For example, how long would the craft be away before requiring refueling/reprovisioning and such? I know a lot depends on the engine configuration etc, but I am more curious what people think the minimum would be? (maybe I missed it an if so I apologize).

For me, it would seem like 4 days to a week at a minimum. Then from there, one can work out the size of fuel tanks based on preferred propulsion, size of water tanks (black and fresh), refrigeration or icebox, climate control, generator needs and such...

I would think a week at a minimum . I would like to see one larger fuel tank , with a smaller tank for when extended range is needed . The VG 26 concept for cruising and Island hopping should minimum for livability , and expanded to fit the greater size and disp.

LarryA wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:29 am Did we ever get to a some use case requirements? For example, how long would the craft be away before requiring refueling/reprovisioning and such? I know a lot depends on the engine configuration etc, but I am more curious what people think the minimum would be? (maybe I missed it an if so I apologize).

For me, it would seem like 4 days to a week at a minimum. Then from there, one can work out the size of fuel tanks based on preferred propulsion, size of water tanks (black and fresh), refrigeration or icebox, climate control, generator needs and such...

It may be anecdotal, but Richard told me for the inside passage; 250 mile range was adequate.

The longest passage is about 180 NM but that can be shortened to 80 if the boat has a shallow draft.
The range depends very much on the speed. I would aim for minimum 100 NM at 12 knots which should become 300 NM at 6 knots.

As for self reliance range (tanks), I would say minimum one week for 2 persons.

https://www.captainjohn.org/GL-3-Scoop.html
This is a great summary of boat length, draft, etc for different legs.
208 miles is absolute minimum.
To do the mississippi leg you need 450 miles gasoline and 379 diesel( lower mississippi has on river diesel delivery)

Very useful site thanks jonnymac.

I’ve been doing lots research as I am looking to shift to a work from home permanent gig and I am working on convincing my wife to spend the summers cruising. And I wouldn’t mind spending my retirement some day cruising the great loop. Maybe transport the boat to washington and cruise out there for a few years.

I ran across the Olga 28 by Mark Smaalders that is 28' , Scout 30' like but with a better layout . A little more beam , and 4' or so more on length would give room for a head with shower .

rick berrey wrote: ↑Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:00 pm I ran across the Olga 28 by Mark Smaalders that is 28' , Scout 30' like but with a better layout . A little more beam , and 4' or so more on length would give room for a head with shower .

Nice looking boat and the layout is nice too. the motor well is a little deceptive, this is really a 26’ boat space wise. but still very nice.

jonnymac wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:08 pm I’ve been doing lots research as I am looking to shift to a work from home permanent gig and I am working on convincing my wife to spend the summers cruising. And I wouldn’t mind spending my retirement some day cruising the great loop. Maybe transport the boat to washington and cruise out there for a few years.

Sounds like a plan!

I like the look of both the Scout 30 and Olga 28 above the waterline , and the Olga 28 interior layout . I would prefer to see a round bilge hull suited for foam build . Transom hung motor / motors would give the motor well space back to the cockpit . I would also prefer twins hung on the transom -v- a single transom hung or motor well . I think the 33' range + or - would give the room needed for two or three to Cruise in comfort , and a couple more people short term . Use near shore Gulf Coast would make me have a kicker , so twins would give me the comfort of two motors , and better steering ability . A mast option might give both a Great Loop Cruiser , and a Motor Sailor , adding to a potential customer base .

rick berrey wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:37 pm I like the look of both the Scout 30 and Olga 28 above the waterline , and the Olga 28 interior layout . I would prefer to see a round bilge hull suited for foam build . Transom hung motor / motors would give the motor well space back to the cockpit . I would also prefer twins hung on the transom -v- a single transom hung or motor well . I think the 33' range + or - would give the room needed for two or three to Cruise in comfort , and a couple more people short term . Use near shore Gulf Coast would make me have a kicker , so twins would give me the comfort of two motors , and better steering ability . A mast option might give both a Great Loop Cruiser , and a Motor Sailor , adding to a potential customer base .

Reckon you're getting close to an attractive and marketable proposition rick berrey.

Looking at hull shape and hp on Atkins designs again . I know a V hull will fit Bateau's material,s and build methods , but over 30' I suspect we are getting to the limit of stitch and glue anyway . While I like the hull shape and hp requirements of Atkins Seal , her speed is maxed out at 9 mph , and we need at least 12 mph . The hull shape of the Atkins Naiad and Dave Gerr,s Dr Northwest might be a good compromise on a 32 + or - cruiser if an outboard could be made to work , and would be great for Fl. waters .

I like those hulls very much and I had one for years but there is a problem with prop efficiency.
My Seabright skiff hull had a 17" prop and it was not perfect because of the flow of water coming off the wide keel.
A small outboard prop would not fit behind that keel. However, twin outboards in wells could work.

Twins would be great . Lost my free parking spot for what I planed to build , need something I can tow home once a year , build with 5/8" H80 ( 58 sheets ) , have glass , 75 gal. epoxy on hand , I can buy a little more material if need be . I would like a mast option just so I can have a sailboat , 3 mph get home speed will be good . Waiting on plans .

Rick, do you really have the materials waiting or is this just a list of what you plan to use?

Rick, Where did you find 5/8 H80 DivinyCell?? Jeff

How about a DE29 as a foundation for a small, trailerable Great Loop cruiser?
Look at it here:
https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=65122

For the Great Loop, there would be a larger pilothouse but the hull is perfect. I would style it more like a trawler.

Jacques this was a stretch of the DE25? Correct? It is beautiful boat and well done by Pat4.

Yes, that's the one. The hull was extended and the sheer raised.
I will redesign from scratch but aim for about the same dimensions.

I still like the Seabright hull very much but I am certain that more builders will buy plans for a more traditional hull shape like the DE series.
The DE hulls are almost full planing hulls. There is a little bit of twist, the buttocks are not entirely parallel.
I may design a semi-planing hull but builders almost always put excessive HP on it. Result, the boat trims down by the stern with too much HP but in the DE's I planned for that. I knew that builders would not stick to my specs and use more HP. To prevent squatting, I drew a bottom that is almost dihedral. The result is just as expected: even with crazy HP, the boat runs well. It's not as good in very bad weather but that was the compromise.
I plan to work on the looks too: pinch the sides in at the stern, only above the DWL, redo the sheer, more camber in the pilothouse, maybe a round transom since the well gives me freedom there.
First, I'll work on the volumes needed to fulfill the program, wrap a hull around that, work the ratios and when ready, I will post some drawings.

Jeff , I bought the H80 years ago , it is in storage so i am not sure of what it is in . I planed on building a Horstman tristar 31 , but life changes . I have H80 , 5 sheets 5/8 Renie ? cell , Rolls of 18 oz 0/90 , 17 oz 45/45 , 12 oz 0/90 , 6 oz s- glass , 3 oz S- glass , (8) 1/2 " Baltic Birch formply , enough material to do the Horstman + some . When I bought I got bids , and bought bulk , Shine never responded to my emails , so I bought from another company . I need a boat for the upper Gulf Coast , the only part of the Loop I will do is from the first lock on the Ten Tom and South to the Keys . I am not sure what the Hp would be on a DE 29 , after running 4 strokes on the companies work boats I am sold on them now , but I would still like twins out in the Gulf , as well as a mast . Lets look at this boat in another way Jacques , what boat would you want to design for a retirement boat for yourself that you could do the Loop in , Island hop , and do the Keys ? I got a good deal on some new # 10 Anderson standard winches and handles , have a 16 , 40 , 46, if you design her with a mast I will sweeten the deal with a winch or two when I buy a set of prints , I also have 3 new Lewmar hatches , if you design her with only two hatches , I could throw in a hatch as well . A boat designed at 31 to 32 foot would give you a 34 to 35 foot boat with the 10% scale rule . I would think a Sea Bright skiff hull of that size could be built using a mix of both foam and ply , giving some options on material and build methods .

rick berrey wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:29 pm Jeff , I bought the H80 years ago , it is in storage so i am not sure of what it is in . I planed on building a Horstman tristar 31 , but life changes . I have H80 , 5 sheets 5/8 Renie ? cell ,

Renicell is transom foam.

Jacques , what boat would you want to design for a retirement boat for yourself that you could do the Loop in , Island hop , and do the Keys ?

A motorsailor with shallow draft around 35'. Pilothouse, box keel.
Like this one but with a box keel:
https://www.boatdesign.net/attachments/ ... jpg.60861/

Another boat that I like very much is the Fales Navigator:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fales-32-navigator

And for comfort, there is this Jack Hargrave design:
https://boats-from-usa.com/sites/defaul ... 761023.jpg
only 29' nominal but 12' wide.

I couldn't get to the Hargrave link , I like the other boats , but disp. and beam are both out of reach for me on those boats if I look at things realistically . I am good with 12 knts to 14 knts , not sure if that fits in a semi - planing or semi - displacement hull . In designing a DE 29 , could you design a one boat with a two hull option , one hull with a box keel ?

A DE29 would not have a box keel, it would be a very traditional hull.
To design a good displacement speed boat (6 knots) is easy, a good planing boat (15+ kn) is not difficult either but the speeds in between are the problem.
There is an interesting article about that in this months ProBoat magazine. The problem in my case is not the design, I can do it but I can't be certain that the builders will stay within the weight limits.
Here is the link to the magazine article:
https://www.proboat.com/current-issue/

If I go the way of the DE29, it will be a planing hull. At 10 knots (12.5 mph), she will perform better than most planing boats but she will burn fuel. To be more efficient, you have to reduce one parameter: weight or speed or then get on plane. The narrow beam for her length will help.

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:17 am

rick berrey wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:29 pm Jeff , I bought the H80 years ago , it is in storage so i am not sure of what it is in . I planed on building a Horstman tristar 31 , but life changes . I have H80 , 5 sheets 5/8 Renie ? cell ,

Renicell is transom foam.

Jacques , what boat would you want to design for a retirement boat for yourself that you could do the Loop in , Island hop , and do the Keys ?

A motorsailor with shallow draft around 35'. Pilothouse, box keel.
Like this one but with a box keel:
https://www.boatdesign.net/attachments/ ... jpg.60861/

Another boat that I like very much is the Fales Navigator:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fales-32-navigator

And for comfort, there is this Jack Hargrave design:
https://boats-from-usa.com/sites/defaul ... 761023.jpg
only 29' nominal but 12' wide.

All very nice Jacques. But Hargrave's did not show. Don't know which you intended to show but he does some wonderful designs.

Hope your enjoying not having to work so hard. '

Tom

Jacques,
is this the kind of boat you meant to show for third link

http://www.missdotdee.net/

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:17 am

rick berrey wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:29 pm Jeff , I bought the H80 years ago , it is in storage so i am not sure of what it is in . I planed on building a Horstman tristar 31 , but life changes . I have H80 , 5 sheets 5/8 Renie ? cell ,

Renicell is transom foam.

Jacques , what boat would you want to design for a retirement boat for yourself that you could do the Loop in , Island hop , and do the Keys ?

A motorsailor with shallow draft around 35'. Pilothouse, box keel.
Like this one but with a box keel:
https://www.boatdesign.net/attachments/ ... jpg.60861/

Another boat that I like very much is the Fales Navigator:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fales-32-navigator

And for comfort, there is this Jack Hargrave design:
https://boats-from-usa.com/sites/defaul ... 761023.jpg
only 29' nominal but 12' wide.

[quote=jonnymac post_id=478669 time=1601204667 user_id=82392]
Jacques,
is this the kind of boat you meant to show for third link

http://www.missdotdee.net/

Nice

Yes, that's the one. There is large set of youtube movies of a sister ship doing the Great Loop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjryApXHZKo
About 30 videos, the skipper is a good seaman.

I looked at the Fales 32 , it is a Willard Horizon 30 form cut in half with 2' added , the Willard 30 has about the same specs . A motor sailor 70 / 30 with around 10,000 disp , and removable ballast might work if it could be towed .

rick berrey wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:17 pm I looked at the Fales 32 , it is a Willard Horizon 30 form cut in half with 2' added , the Willard 30 has about the same specs . A motor sailor 70 / 30 with around 10,000 disp , and removable ballast might work if it could be towed .

Towing 10,000 lb will be very expensive. It would be cheaper to eliminate the towing requirement and pay some marina fees.
A DE29 is something we could keep below 5,000 lbs displacement but sacrifices must be made in amenities and livable volume.

I feel like the discussion has turned to a different kind of boat in general. If we are talking a hard to tow slower boat why wouldn’t a person build the TW28. I personally thought the earlier discussions described a more desirable boat. I love the way the de 29 looks, but you aren’t gaining an actual space since all extra length goes to the motorwell. It feels like in the case of the motor well you build a 32’ or 33’ boat, so you can have 28’ or 29’ of livable boat.

jonnymac wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:54 pm I feel like the discussion has turned to a different kind of boat in general. If we are talking a hard to tow slower boat why wouldn’t a person build the TW28. I personally thought the earlier discussions described a more desirable boat. I love the way the de 29 looks, but you aren’t gaining an actual space since all extra length goes to the motorwell. It feels like in the case of the motor well you build a 32’ or 33’ boat, so you can have 28’ or 29’ of livable boat.

When I said earlier in the thread, I really meant this thread. It's hard to keep track with all the different great loop threads that are going. The TT35 is more like the boat that would make sense for me.
https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.ph ... 4&start=40

jonnymac wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:54 pm I feel like the discussion has turned to a different kind of boat in general.

We are going all the place with requirements. Towing is a major restriction.
There are different kinds of towable boats. A DE25, even a stretched one, can easily be towed on the highway, a TT35 can be put on a trailer occasionally for winterizing or moving from one place to another with a specialized trailer. A TT35 is not the kind of boat you tow with your average pick-up truck but it is much more boat than a DE29 8-6' wide.
Maybe we should go back to the TT35 type of boat. I became distracted by the pictures of that very nice DE29 just launched in Holland but the original boat requirements can not be met in that boat.

Let's reset priorities:
- boat large enough to have a separate sleeping space for a couple with separate head
- outboard powered
- towable with special permit (limits beam to 10' 4")
- able to maintain 12 knots in reasonable weather
- 300 miles range at moderate speed
- 7000 lbs max. empty
- easy to build
- economical = as small as possible
- designed to be handled by max. 2 persons

We can discuss those priorities but once we decide to go for that program, I promise to stick to it.

Besides the TT35 example, here is another one that I like very much:

https://www.siewertdesign.com/Portfolio ... lo_34.html

It should be lighter, I have to see if that is possible but I like the looks.

The reset priorities are just right . I also like the looks of the siewert design , I like the uncovered cockpit -v- a hardtop as seen on many cruisers .

The problem with that boat is the weight. I like the looks and the layout but it must be fitted on another hull.

The 28' with a 9' beam on the siewert sight is about the same layout as the 34' but without much cockpit , and Disp. also being an issue . So are we back to talking about a semi disp. hull -v- planing hull ?

I like the reset priorities also. Tombolo boat is an interesting boat, looks like someone said "how can I make a downeast style boat look modern."

I can't see the Tombolo with a traditional mast , any thoughts on a wishbone mast ?

I was looking at the layout of the TT35 wondering how to get the head moved into the bow . Viewing the boat as a two person boat , access would not be much of an issue by moving the aft door to port or starboard , and give room to move the birth to the rear . Moving galley center , dining and head into the bow .

I think it is going to be challenging getting the head into the bow in a small boat like this. Even if it's only 2 people, which it's likely at some point there are guests or more people all the time in my case. Having enough space to get around the bed is going to be tough given the beam of the boat at that point. If it is in the cabin, I think the rear of the cabin makes more sense as you don't lose so much space to a walkway. I think there are going to be opportunities for tweaking the specific layout for everyone.

I keep going back and forth between some requirements and the transportable beam is an obstacle. That TT35 is narrow and feels narrow. It's OK for short cruises but not to live aboard for months, at least not by my standards.

I would need to transport about 6 miles twice a year . So how much wider can we go and still transport as a wide load , and how wide can we go and keep the disp. near 7,000 lb ?

In Alabama now over 8'6" has to have a Routine Permit which is good to 16' . Over 12' requires one escort , there maybe other width restrictions depending on road width . So wider than 8'6" is a mute point , I will have to permit a 10' wide boat or 12' wide boat . My brothers Jefferson 42 is I think a 14' beam , it will spoil you with room , and his wife , kid,s and grand kid,s all like it better than the Island Packet 32 he sold . There was plenty of room in the Island Packet , but it lacked comfort if 1 or more grandchild were there , and it would have lacked comfort if it were 2' wider and 3' longer . I think if we are going to keep some kind of short haul towing options we will max out with a 12' beam . If we are giving up a long haul towing option we might as well bump up the displacement if we need to . I think 10' wide with big glass seems a lot wider than 12' wide with small port lights , I would think in the 11' width range there could be enough done to an interior to make it a comfortable live aboard for 2 , and maybe 1 grand kid .

that's a very good point. I looked at New York and basically 8'7" to 12'0" is fairly easy with just some additional lights and flags. For me it would be like a twice a year hauling typically so a permit is fine. It looks like more than 12' crosses some expensive and difficult boundaries.

There also lots of people with older cruisers near me that are certainly more than 8'7" and they all get hauled out every year, so must not be that big a deal or no one would do it.

If we aim for a short haul with a 1 1/2 to 2 ton truck then it is only weight that becomes an issue . Looking at the Atkins boats the 11' beam range is not reached until Mr. Simms and Namaki . Namaki is only 10' 9" beam but 36' 11' LOA , and over our 35' . Both have a mast , and Namaki has the round stern like J,s motor sailor .

Yes, yes I know this is a Great Loop trawler/crusiser thread.

However, there is much to be said for buying a popular sailboat that is comfortable to motor cruise in, fun to sail, and which, if you buy right, you'll be able to sell for much the same price when you're finished looping.

To this end and out of curiosity, I've been researching quality, fit for purpose, popular, affordable, comfortable, sailable, seaworthy and loopable US volume-built sailboats.

Then out of the blue, a friend here in Australia has just purchased a great example of a 1992 solid glass, no bright work Florida built Catalina 42 footer in very good condition. She'd been sailed downhill from the US to Australia by one-way sailors.

A Catalina 42 is firming up as my prime candidate as a quality Great Looper that can be purchased on a budget, and sold for near purchase price when you're done looping. And life's better when you sail as circumstances permit.

From the reading I have done there is at least one bridge you can not get around that is 19 foot max. Not being a blow boater I am not sure how much problem it is to step and unstep the mast. I have read where a shoal draft sailboat can be a great way to make the trip.

Yep, there are some bridges that you will have to unstep the mast. Even on the Mississippi. Had a friend do it many years ago and totally enjoyed the experience on a Catalina 28 I think maybe 29.

Tom

If you don't want to unstep the mast .....

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiv0fxFcV3I[/youtube]

Fuzz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:00 pm From the reading I have done there is at least one bridge you can not get around that is 19 foot max. Not being a blow boater I am not sure how much problem it is to step and unstep the mast. I have read where a shoal draft sailboat can be a great way to make the trip.

when i see the great loop sailboats pass me on erie canal many are stepped. so its obviously worth it for lots of them.

glossieblack wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:42 am Yes, yes I know this is a Great Loop trawler/crusiser thread.

However, there is much to be said for buying a popular sailboat that is comfortable to motor cruise in, fun to sail, and which, if you buy right, you'll be able to sell for much the same price when you're finished looping.

To this end and out of curiosity, I've been researching quality, fit for purpose, popular, affordable, comfortable, sailable, seaworthy and loopable US volume-built sailboats.

Then out of the blue, a friend here in Australia has just purchased a great example of a 1992 solid glass, no bright work Florida built Catalina 42 footer in very good condition. She'd been sailed downhill from the US to Australia by one-way sailors.

A Catalina 42 is firming up as my prime candidate as a quality Great Looper that can be purchased on a budget, and sold for near purchase price when you're done looping. And life's better when you sail as circumstances permit.

i had a friend that bought a sailboat and sailed it one way across south pacific from seattle to baja mexico to Australia. and part of why they could afford the trip as they sold it at a profit out there.


back to the loop, if you are building a boat with the hope of doing this journey. i can’t see that person selling it when they are done.

I have been looking at existing plans scaled 10% and how they would fit the concept requirements . I think our concept is deciding what to take on the trip , a camper or RV . The TW28 already qualify,s for the trip , + 10% I think would put you into the upper end of the camper range and do the Loop in relative comfort . Down side,s of a TW28 +10% might be draft , is not being able to tow it , don't think it will hit 12 mph , no outboard options , getting to the higher end of disp of our concept , and lower range of concept length . Atkins has two boats , Naiad 28'1" and Nanuk lll 28'7" that if scaled 10% would put them closer to Gerr,s 34' design , both the Atkins being sea bright skiff hull,s . There are a lot of unknowns with the Atkins designs , disp. being just one . I mentioned Atkins Seal in a post , other than lower hp and a different look it brings nothing to the table that the TW28 is not already offering . One boat we have not mentioned is the Fl26 , +10% would give a go lite Loop boat for short hop,s , or low end of the camper concept . An outboard option for the TW28 might be something to consider . For me we are now looking at two different boats , one being a TT35 style that can be towed , lighter disp , shallow draft , short cruises , or camping style cruises , the other being for long cruises . If we are looking at a long cruise boat then I think we should pay less attention to disp and beam , towing option should be gone , 12 mph dropped to 10 mph , a TW33/34 with a 3' or less draft .

Shug21 have not heard from you since your first post. Has any of this helped you in your decision. While I lived in Cleveland I knew several people who had done the Great Loop through my father-in-law's Yacht Club. Not many, each had taken 3+ years and each had some great stories. None ever regretted doing it.

Good luck on your decision and enjoy the trip. Watch the Great Lakes parts they can kick up fast. Enjoy your selves.

Tom

Hey tom, Thanks for the comment. It has helped and I am patiently waiting to see what Jacque's comes up with. With corona virus slowing the world to a stand still and then the Red Tide restarting its crap down here I have been slow to move on any projects. Actually have a build that will be starting in the next couple weeks for a flats boat. As for the Great Lakes I grew up in northern WV and fished all the Great Lakes for bass, walleye, steelhead and salmon.

I would like to say the great loop is still on the plans but until there are plans I feel comfortable building or I stumble across a boat that works for the right price it is just a dream for now.

Shug21 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:46 pm Hey tom, Thanks for the comment. It has helped and I am patiently waiting to see what Jacque's comes up with. With corona virus slowing the world to a stand still and then the Red Tide restarting its crap down here I have been slow to move on any projects. Actually have a build that will be starting in the next couple weeks for a flats boat. As for the Great Lakes I grew up in northern WV and fished all the Great Lakes for bass, walleye, steelhead and salmon.

I would like to say the great loop is still on the plans but until there are plans I feel comfortable building or I stumble across a boat that works for the right price it is just a dream for now.

Good for you no need to be in a hurry in these days. Enjoy your flats boat.

Tom

Some 1943 versions of Motorboat I got from Jacques have a 36' boat design called Ox. The July issue kicks it off and the October issue ends it. I have fir sure August and October and fortunately offsets and construction are in the August issue. I may have the other issues.

Ox is considered a workboat with a keel and inboard power. The October issue shows a cruising layout.

If anyone is interested in more, I can start a different thread; it just seemed like there might be some interested or perhaps JM has the lines for this boat.

I have no option for a picture.

One problem with a large boat boat design is how many people can Jacques sell plan,s to . Finishing the TW32 design for a foam build method might be the most practical , as it was almost completed , and put,s it in the top end of build range for most of his costumer base . As for as a new design , either a design in the TT35 range , or one Jacques want,s to design , retirement should be doing what you enjoy doing , and want to do , maybe the motor sailor .

I bought Atkins River Belle plans just to play with an idea of a electric inboard version and i would have to say the plans are pretty disappointing. I honestly think she aught to be selling them for less as some of the reproduction details from scanning are missing like where a line starts. and there is almost no information. also mistakes on the offset table that he corrects in a different book, seems she should be including that correction in the sale.

also, Atkins was of the opinion that leave the comforts of home at home so even if an interior was detailed no way it would remotely meet spouse approval. So while they are interesting to look at no way i would buy another set of atkins plans.

rick berrey wrote: ↑Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:27 pm Atkins has two boats , Naiad 28'1" and Nanuk lll 28'7" that if scaled 10% would put them closer to Gerr,s 34' design , both the Atkins being sea bright skiff hull,s . There are a lot of unknowns with the Atkins designs , disp. being just one . I mentioned Atkins Seal in a post , other than lower hp and a different look it brings nothing to the table that the TW28 is not already offering . One boat we have not mentioned is the Fl26 , +10% would give a go lite Loop boat for short hop,s , or low end of the camper concept . An outboard option for the TW28 might be something to consider . For me we are now looking at two different boats , one being a TT35 style that can be towed , lighter disp , shallow draft , short cruises , or camping style cruises , the other being for long cruises . If we are looking at a long cruise boat then I think we should pay less attention to disp and beam , towing option should be gone , 12 mph dropped to 10 mph , a TW33/34 with a 3' or less draft .

Many of Atkins designs in the 30 + or - range would have to have their interior,s redesigned to be functional , may be people were shorter and tougher back then . I wouldn't try and build either the Naiad or Nanuk lll because of that , not even factoring in quality of plans . But that being said If you compare Naiad,s hull to Gerr,s DR Northwester Cruisers hull , the DR Northwester is about 20% longer with about the same beam , but looks to be close to the same radius seabright hull design from what I can tell . Nanuk lll has a tunnel hull , and the Noble Cab at 34' designed by Atkins looks to be her bigger version , no plans for sale . Both the DR Northwester and Noble Cab would work for a Loop boat except DR Northwester for speed requirement in the Gulf . If you look at hp in the DR Northwester ( 46 ) and hp in Naiad (52 ) , DR Northwester is designed to cruise at displacement speed whereas Naiad is not . If both hulls are the same basic design then I think more hp would push a DR to our 12 mph requirement in the gulf . Noble Cab had some reported problems in sucking air into the tunnel in some sea conditions , I would think it would be a better option for the Key,s while a DR Northwester would be a better fit in the upper gulf coast areas .

I ran across another Atkins sea bright skiff design " Two Brothers " which is in line with the other two that are in the 28' range . The plans are shown in Motor Boating Magazine 1952 , Vol 90 #5 Nov. 1952 . Those plans can be seen on a post in Boat Design .net by Angelique , in sailboat design March 21, 2019 . The hull dimension,s are about the same as the other two .
L 28'9"
LW 26'6"
Beam 8'8"
Draft 1'9"
Power 12 hp
speed 11 mph
The two main differences I see when compared to the other two 28' sea bright skiff designs is Two Brothers is a sailboat , and power requirements . As for the hull design , if stretched in length only it is in our size range and could maybe be towed . It has a speed of 11 mph and would be close to our 12 mph goal if stretched and a little more power added . It has a 1'9" draft , a great Florida boat , or anywhere else with shallow water cruising . It can take a mast not only for looks and get home power , but also for an option for a second power source . And the boat hull has already been designed , just needs to be stretched , and build methods be converted to modern materials . I am not sure if the use of the plans would need to involve Mrs. Atkins , but I don't think anyone would mind paying her a fee for the use .

rick berrey wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:04 am I ran across another Atkins sea bright skiff design " Two Brothers " which is in line with the other two that are in the 28' range . The plans are shown in Motor Boating Magazine 1952 , Vol 90 #5 Nov. 1952 . Those plans can be seen on a post in Boat Design .net by Angelique , in sailboat design March 21, 2019 . The hull dimension,s are about the same as the other two .
L 28'9"
LW 26'6"
Beam 8'8"
Draft 1'9"
Power 12 hp
speed 11 mph
The two main differences I see when compared to the other two 28' sea bright skiff designs is Two Brothers is a sailboat , and power requirements . As for the hull design , if stretched in length only it is in our size range and could maybe be towed . It has a speed of 11 mph and would be close to our 12 mph goal if stretched and a little more power added . It has a 1'9" draft , a great Florida boat , or anywhere else with shallow water cruising . It can take a mast not only for looks and get home power , but also for an option for a second power source . And the boat hull has already been designed , just needs to be stretched , and build methods be converted to modern materials . I am not sure if the use of the plans would need to involve Mrs. Atkins , but I don't think anyone would mind paying her a fee for the use .

I have the magazine from Merten's old
Collection!

Fallguy1000 , I don't know how to post the picture on the forum , maybe you could show the lines of Two Brothers . Also someone on a forum came up with a disp of 6100 for Two brothers .

rick berrey wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:21 pm Fallguy1000 , I don't know how to post the picture on the forum , maybe you could show the lines of Two Brothers . Also someone on a forum came up with a disp of 6100 for Two brothers .

I snapped pics of all of the pages. I think I need to do it in a damned gallery.

Album?

app.php/gallery/album/80

Pretty small. If anyone wants a copy; not sure if it matters anymore or if public domain..

Hull is strip planked, I believe with 3/4" material..

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:13 pm Yes, that's the one. The hull was extended and the sheer raised.
I will redesign from scratch but aim for about the same dimensions.

I still like the Seabright hull very much but I am certain that more builders will buy plans for a more traditional hull shape like the DE series.
The DE hulls are almost full planing hulls. There is a little bit of twist, the buttocks are not entirely parallel.
I may design a semi-planing hull but builders almost always put excessive HP on it. Result, the boat trims down by the stern with too much HP but in the DE's I planned for that. I knew that builders would not stick to my specs and use more HP. To prevent squatting, I drew a bottom that is almost dihedral. The result is just as expected: even with crazy HP, the boat runs well. It's not as good in very bad weather but that was the compromise.
I plan to work on the looks too: pinch the sides in at the stern, only above the DWL, redo the sheer, more camber in the pilothouse, maybe a round transom since the well gives me freedom there.
First, I'll work on the volumes needed to fulfill the program, wrap a hull around that, work the ratios and when ready, I will post some drawings.

I'm very curious Jacques !!
And how about adding a few inches in width?

Most of Atkin seabright hulls have ballast on them , but Two Brothers has none as far as I can tell . The hull looks to be the same basic hull design as smaller surprise and big surprise both with CBs , and big surprise with a larger hp power requirement than Two Brothers which is 6' longer . So why would two brothers not have ballast , and is that the reason for the lower 12 HP ? If the power requirements are correct this hull scaled to the lower 30' range should only require hp in the low 20s . With some kind of rig for a para sail to give down wind sailing ability I think this type hull would fit many of requirements + some . The more I look at seabright hulls the more I like them .

rick berrey wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:48 pm Most of Atkin seabright hulls have ballast on them , but Two Brothers has none as far as I can tell . The hull looks to be the same basic hull design as smaller surprise and big surprise both with CBs , and big surprise with a larger hp power requirement than Two Brothers which is 6' longer . So why would two brothers not have ballast , and is that the reason for the lower 12 HP ? If the power requirements are correct this hull scaled to the lower 30' range should only require hp in the low 20s . With some kind of rig for a para sail to give down wind sailing ability I think this type hull would fit many of requirements + some . The more I look at seabright hulls the more I like them .

I don't see any ballasting in the plans. Bit I did notice the construction is robust, beefy hardwood timbers. So she gets plenty heavy in the traditional build. Most likely, a version built in another fashion may require ballasting. Of course, a water tank ballast might be the magic for tuning, or extra fuel would be good as well.

As for the beam, the designer suggests "she be built with no changes of any kind" in the last line in the article. I certainly don't know enough about these boats to comment on the beam. The question would be how to build the center bigger.. I don't see much value in widening the deck.

From what I have seen so far all the Atkin seabright in that size range are built with 3/4 lap and oak , so there must be something else . The rig is more of a get home rig so may be no ballast needed for it , but the other 28' seabright hull has I think 2000 or 2500 lbs ballast , so maybe less hull vol . On build materials being already heavy , extra glass and epoxy on the bottom of these hulls could replace some ballast , make the boat bullet proof , make the builders who always want to build it heaver happy , and BBC could sell more epoxy and glass .

" Learning Freeship with Atkin Suprize Mortorsailor " on Wooden Boat forum compares the Atkins seabright hulls that are the same basic hull . The lines for Two Brothers are done and may be in the public domain , or a $100 domain to the Atkin site might be in order . As Two Brothers sits it is rated at 11 mph with 12 hp , beam is 8'8" so could be trimed to 8' 6 " , scaled in length only 10% it would be 31.5' with 16 hp , just right for me . Big Surpize is rated at 20 mph with 22 hp , so the hull form can be pushed to our 13 mph goal with a bit more hp , maybe a 20 hp on a 10% + length only version . It carries a get home or down wind sail for an option , and may be could be towed at 6100 displacement as designed , or 8100 disp . + 10% . Interior would have to be redesigned . Seabrights seem to be wide at the bow so a forward birth would be roomy . So my question is , with the hull lines done would it be possible to sell a redesigned set of interior plans and offer the original plans on the free plans with all material conversions left to the builder ?

rick berrey wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 4:11 pm " Learning Freeship with Atkin Suprize Mortorsailor " on Wooden Boat forum compares the Atkins seabright hulls that are the same basic hull . The lines for Two Brothers are done and may be in the public domain , or a $100 domain to the Atkin site might be in order . As Two Brothers sits it is rated at 11 mph with 12 hp , beam is 8'8" so could be trimed to 8' 6 " , scaled in length only 10% it would be 31.5' with 16 hp , just right for me . Big Surpize is rated at 20 mph with 22 hp , so the hull form can be pushed to our 13 mph goal with a bit more hp , maybe a 20 hp on a 10% + length only version . It carries a get home or down wind sail for an option , and may be could be towed at 6100 displacement as designed , or 8100 disp . + 10% . Interior would have to be redesigned . Seabrights seem to be wide at the bow so a forward birth would be roomy . So my question is , with the hull lines done would it be possible to sell a redesigned set of interior plans and offer the original plans on the free plans with all material conversions left to the builder ?

Not sure I follow the question, but making the boat shorter makes her slower.

I get 7.5 knots at 31.5'. I need to undersrand how Big Surprise gets 20..

Two Brothers is 28'9.5" so you would not make it shorter at 31'6" , the mph and hp are on each plan as per Atkin . If one hull can get to 20 mph , another hull with the same lines only bigger should also be able to reach the same speed or greater , one would only have to do the math to find the required hp . Problem,s with J designing a great loop boat is time , another is interest , redesigning the interior and deck of an already designed boat might be doable .

There are now study plans from another designer that fits our 8'6" tow option , he might be spying on our tread . LOA 33'10.75" , beam. 8'.75" , Draft 1'2" with outboard up , disp. 7,100 , 60 to 115 high-thrust outboard . Down side are you are not docking her by yourself as there is no door on the side . I am not sure how a high thrust outboard will function long term running at low rpm,s . The company I was working at replaced our outboards with suzuki 90 hp , we burned one up the first day , and had issues with the others making oil . The rep came out and told us our problem with the ones making oil , we were running them at displacement or just over . He told up to run them wide opened whenever we could and it solved our problems . We ruined a merc running it back and forth across the river at idle speed . So will a high-thrust motor last on a boat pushing disp. speed , or running at low rpm,s on an extended trip such as the Loop ?

Rick a Hi-thrust motor has a final gear ratio of 2.33 to 2.38 compared to a regular ratio of 2.0 to 2.07. This is for a 60HP motor. I don't know if you can even get one in a 90 and have never seen one in a 115. So you still have the problem of not being able to slow the motor down enough to operate at displacement speed. The Hi-thrust motors were designed for heavier loads to operate in an economical range of around 3500rpms and still get good speeds.

The thing you need to do is add a second trolling motor on in the 9.9 to 18HP range and attach it to the main motor so it can be controlled by the main steering, and provide fuel from the main tanks. This is done by the Walleye fisher men on the Great Lakes when they fish all day. The trolling motor size will depend on the displacement of the boat.

There are lots of places you can use the 90 on the Great Loop like the Mississippi, but I know there are a lot that you can't and you need displacement speed.

Well that is what I know about it.

Tom

I am with Tom here. A big outboard to go fast and a 10-20 hp kicker to do the slow stuff. Plus you can put run hours on the smaller/cheaper motor. I have a 22 foot boat that weighs around #6000 with people when fishing. My 9.9 will push it 5-6 knots around half throttle. And not burn much fuel to do it. I think that is a better way to go than midsize twins would be.

I agree with the kicker , but if you used the kicker much of the time why would you need the primary large hp outboard for this design concept ? It would be like needing two different motors , one for displacement speed , one for semi displacement . If twins will not do the job then are we back to an inboard ?

I think kicker for running the slow down current runs, and the big one for out running weather on the great lakes, the new jersey stretch and the gulf stretch. or just trying to make the bridge/lock schedule.

rick berrey wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:27 am I agree with the kicker , but if you used the kicker much of the time why would you need the primary large hp outboard for this design concept ? It would be like needing two different motors , one for displacement speed , one for semi displacement . If twins will not do the job then are we back to an inboard ?

Rick you have 3 Great Lakes, Michigan, Huron and Erie to navigate. You want to get through them as soon as possible, so a 60-90HP main engine to provide planning speed would be useful. Instead of 6mph, 17-18mph for a semi-planning boat which I guess is your goal The Great Lakes can and will kick up a storm in short period of time. I grew up on Erie. Lives are lost nearly every year.

You will be using the kicker a lot less than the main engine. As jonnymac pointed out most of the loop is open water, you can add the Mississippi to that. You will be using the main engine the majority of the time and the kicker only as needed.

As far as your question on twins, why, more expensive, uses more fuel, as far as far as inboard same problem as an outboard it can't be run at low speeds(rpm's) without problems. Plus more building problems.

Good luck on your build.

Tom

Any movement forward on this concept? I have been looking at the plans for a 36' trawler and also a 28' trawler, both are using a single diesel and traveling at hull speed but since I have no intent to rush 6-9knots will work just fine. still hoping Jaques comes up with a plan that blows me away.

I started thinking about the DE29 , J liked it a lot . The DE29 is a scaled DE25 , not sure if it was scaled in all directions or only length . But which ever way it was scaled , it broke the 10% rule of thumb to get to 29' . If we look at the DE25 it was derived from the DE23 , so if the DE29 is scaled from the DE23 as it,s base , then it is scaled around the 30% range . So if designing a DE29 why not use the LB22 and have a true double wedge semi displacement hull , a LB29 ( Big Nina ) instead of a DE29 ?

I built the LB22 and even with 30% more space that would be a pretty small cabin compared to a DE29.

Dougster

Dougster beam would have to be scaled as well , 30% would put you at around 28' with a 9' beam . A 30' version should give you room for two , the ability to make the Loop , and hop around the coast of Fl.

the de29 was just the de25, but he extended the fair line another 4’. which most of was the motor well. Basically we are talking a scaled down version of the TT35. to 30’

rick berrey wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:06 pm I started thinking about the DE29 , J liked it a lot . The DE29 is a scaled DE25 , not sure if it was scaled in all directions or only length . But which ever way it was scaled , it broke the 10% rule of thumb to get to 29' . If we look at the DE25 it was derived from the DE23 , so if the DE29 is scaled from the DE23 as it,s base , then it is scaled around the 30% range . So if designing a DE29 why not use the LB22 and have a true double wedge semi displacement hull , a LB29 ( Big Nina ) instead of a DE29 ?

jonnymac , if you look at the pictures of the DE29 the added 4' ended up below the waterline , so the 4' extended the DE25 waterline well past the 10% scaled rule of thumb for length only . I am not sure if the DE25 is a 10% scaled DE23 or not , but I think it is , if so the DE29 was scaled 30% or so from the original design .

In other posts, it is mentioned this was a 24’ boat that was scaled 1’ down and up.

the de29 was only extended in length. He didn’t post any details other than that, I get the idea that he didn’t want criticism on whether it can be done from the usual group on here.

jonnymac , I wouldn't worry about any criticism if I were him , he has a fine boat .

rick berrey wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:03 pm jonnymac , I wouldn't worry about any criticism if I were him , he has a fine boat .

I wouldn’t either, but when someone talks about doing something off the beaten path here its a little over exuberant warning people of risks so far that I think it keeps some people from posting details.

I hate it that you guys feel this way. For the most part folks here are helpful and just want builders to succeed even if it might not feel that way sometimes. I do think that if you stray too far from the norms the failure risk is much higher. This is coming from a guy who gets out on the edge regularly. Good friends from this site will tell me I am nuts, and they are right, but it does not hurt the friendships.

Fuzz , I admire the fact that the DE29 builder took the risk , he got a fine boat out of it . The forum members keep people from taking risk without knowing they are taking them and give good advice . Criticisim may not have been the best word to use . I would have no problem taking risk that are within my math ability , scaling 1 or 2% over the 10% rule of thumb , length only would not scare me , but 20% or 30% I would want the designer to hold my hand . My thoughts are if the DE can be scaled up 30% then maybe the Nina can be as well , it would be somewhat like the cruising version of Top Hat , only in foam or stitch and glue .

Hi guys,
Some little words from the DE 29 builder.
One of the reasons I didn’t share all the changes I wanted to make was the fact that I didn’t know everything in advance.
An other reason was that if someone would tell me: I’m going to add 4ft in length, 8” more freeboard, raise the cockpit and the cabin, change the bottom thickness from 3/8 into 1/2, enlarge the bottom surface by 10% and put the motor in an enclosed well, I would say he was mad and would ask why he bought this plans!

I had 2 things in mind when I started my build.
- motor in enclosed well. Why? Because in my opinion it looks better, it gives a lot of space for a sunbed, motor noise decrease. Consequence was that I needed more freeboard because off the trim possibilities.
- it had to look good and everything needed to be in proportion. when you only add 4ft in length, without further changes, the boat would turn out looking like a overstretched DE25. To long for her height.( in my opinion..)

During my planning one thing lead to another. For instance; I wanted a lot of storage. Fuel tanks had to move from the benches to the bottom. I didn’t want a raised floor in the cabin, I didn’t want to spend money on custom made tanks. So I had to adjust the floor height to standard available tanks. And so on…
Ofcourse in the end the boat turned out heavier than designed but considering the extra length and width it is still in proportion.
Overall it is still a very light boat.

I took a great risk by changing almost everything. I kept me awake sometimes because of all the money that went into it not knowing if all my, carefully thought through, changes would work.

But it turned out perfect for me!

Pat4 , key is you knew the risk before you started , I am sure the finished product is well worth your sleepless nights , great boat .

Pat4 , one question , I take it you did scale the beam by 10% ? thanks . Rick

rick berrey wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:54 am Pat4 , key is you knew the risk before you started , I am sure the finished product is well worth your sleepless nights , great boat .

Thnx!!

rick berrey wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:01 am Pat4 , one question , I take it you did scale the beam by 10% ? thanks . Rick

Hi Rick, Beam is about +8%. Due to the scale up of the bottom and freeboard

The key to me is the builder knew there were risks involved and was willing to accept them. Building your own boat has a built in set of risks but it also gives the reward of being able to have what you want and not what the factory gave you.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:07 pm The key to me is the builder knew there were risks involved and was willing to accept them. Building your own boat has a built in set of risks but it also gives the reward of being able to have what you want and not what the factory gave you.

I totally agree

lots of great discussion. I just realized I was confusing Pat4’s de29 with the combination of two other boats .

jonnymac wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:40 am lots of great discussion. I just realized I was confusing Pat4’s de29 with the combination of two other boats .

Easy to do with the amount of boat building going on here. I do it also.

Tom