Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Hi Jacques,

I have started to seriously plan and get prepared to build the VG26. I have some questions. But first, a little background and program description.

I have been boating for many years, starting with learning to sail small dinghys and catamarans as a member of the Rudder Club in Jacksonville, FL back in the early '80s. (Yes, I was a teenager.) After 8 years in the US Navy (USS Wisconsin BB64 and Samuel Eliot Morrison FFG13), I moved to Northern Illinois and enjoyed small power boats up to 22 feet. I ended up buying an old, wooden 1968 Pacemaker and lived on it for six months at a marina in Milwaukee. After I winterized it that final year and put it up on blocks, I sold it. That was 1998. Flash forward 22 years and I want to get back into boating.

I (we, can't forget the Mrs) am 5 to 10 years away from retirement and my ambition is to live part time on a sailboat in Florida. (By the way, I am a native Floridian and my family extends from Jacksonville to Lake County and up and down Brevard County, namely Melbourne and Cocoa Beach.) So, the program:
1. Based in Central Florida, preferably the Space Coast.
2 Frequent coastal excursions anywhere between North Carolina to the Florida Keys anywhere from 1 week to a couple of months.
3. Utilize anchorages where possible to minimize dock fees.
4. Self-sustaining for up to 2 weeks (water, electricity, fuel, etc)
5. Creature comforts a little better than "camping" on a boat, such as showering, entertainment (TV?, stereo equipment, etc), cooking, etc.
6. Ability to get underway and enjoy quickly with the essentials (paper charts, handheld gps, ssb, vhf, etc) but able to upgrade/modify as time and resources allow (autopilot, radar, solar panels, satcom, desalinization, etc.)
7. Would like the capability to do any number of long distance trips such as the Bahamas (ok, medium distance), Puerto Rico and various islands in the Caribbean, Florida Straights to the pan handle and even along the redneck Riviera, or maybe even to Cartegena and San Andres Island (my wife is Colombian).
8. I have a budget of anywhere between $30k to $45k over 2.5 to 5 years.
9. Would like (but not a must) to be able to trailer with my own trailer as needed. Of course, this is not an in and out boat! It'll live in the water. I'm thinking winterization and storage on my own property versus a marina's yard.

After researching for months now, it looks like the VG26 pretty much fits the program. I've never build a boat but I have skills. I plan to give my skills a workout and perfect (as much as possible) my techniques by starting with the Hiawatha 16 canoe. Then on to the VG26.

So, my questions:
1. Can a skirt be added? or, would a swim platform (aluminum and wood) be a better (cost, ease of construction)? It would be used for egress/ingress, swimming, etc.
2. What do you think about an arch over and back of the transom used to mount solar panels and enclosed radar?
3. The diesel engine compartment doesn't show much detail. For example, mounting, enclosure doors, sound insulation. Will it need blowers to vent the engine compartment?
4. Storage for propane according to code? This might become self-evident after the build starts and/or I study the plans more.
5. Do you have a checklist for sea trials after initial launch? We'll need a thorough shake-down. Since I currently live in North Carolina, the shake-down cruise will probably happen on a freshwater lake such as Lake Norman.

I'm sure I'll have more as time goes on. I've already purchased the plans for both the Hiawatha 16 and the VG26. I'm ready to dive in!

Thanks for reading. I look forward to your comments.

Best Regards,

Kerry Price

Good Morning Jacques,

As promised, a few more questions/thoughts popped up.

Diesel Engine - I spoke to Jeff this morning about getting the specs for the diesel engine and he recommended I post the question here. I can't find in the plans the actual specs. Can you send those over to me?

Super structure and deck - Are these included in the CNC pricing if I specify material - plywood or foam? I'm leaning toward foam.

Thanks for your attention!

Kerry Price

Very nice project but maybe a little too much for a 26' boat. Radar, solar panels and a lot of what you list will certainly overburden the VG26.
The VG26 is an ideal candidate for a couple sailing up and down the east coast or going to the Bahamas for weeks but not more.
The boat has more storage capacity than most other 26 footers but she is still only 26'.
You would not be able to fit all that equipment and enough store on a boat that size.
A skirt will not help but you could scale the boat up 10%. She would then be a 29 footer with a capacity increased by 33%. Still small for all what you plan but borderline possible. Unfortunately, she will not fit anymore on trailer.

To get an idea of the space and displacement needed, see this video on you tube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qtMHgXM-7I
They completely refitted an old 36 footer. Their layout and equipment is frugal compared to your requirements. They lived aboard an sailed in the area you like for several years. See their solutions for stove, electric motor and storage.

About the engine: the notes mention an inboard as optional. At the time of the design, 35 years ago, Yanmar and Volvo had them. They were sold with a fiberglass engine base that you weld to the hull, no engine beds required. I lost my faith in saildrives, too many bladder and corrosion problems. There is no room for a straight shaft but an electric drive would fit.

For the cooking fuel, in a boat that size I expected a 2 burner stove with the gas can fitted to the stove, no leak that way but for your program, you may need a remote tank in the cockpit. Again a room and weight problem. That tank must be fit with a solenoid valve in a vented locker.

We can discuss venting etc. once the conflict between the program and the boat size is resolved: scale the boat up or scale the program down.


PS: I love Cartagena and the San Andres islands but to go there from Florida is against the Trade Winds.

Kerry Price wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:22 am Good Morning Jacques,

As promised, a few more questions/thoughts popped up.

Diesel Engine - I spoke to Jeff this morning about getting the specs for the diesel engine and he recommended I post the question here. I can't find in the plans the actual specs. Can you send those over to me?

Super structure and deck - Are these included in the CNC pricing if I specify material - plywood or foam? I'm leaning toward foam.

Thanks for your attention!

Kerry Price

We posted at the same time, please see my reply first.

Really appreciate the reply.

Of course, the program is ambitious and I'm certainly willing to compromise. Self-sustaining for 2 weeks is my requirement for safety, not necessarily for comfort.

My Boy Scout compass, a sextant, an accurate clock, and paper charts to back up a handheld gps will get us there! Plenty of bottled water for balast and sheet to tiller steering is always an option! I think the biggest thing to find room for would be a solar panel and propane.

You have me intrigued with the electric drive. I very aware of the incredible capabilities of electric motors. Where can I find more information including specs?

I like the idea of scaling up. I'm versed in metric as well as imperial units (I am an electrical engineer and most of my work is in metric) so scaling would be simple conversions. (Like I said, a trailer is nice, but not necessary.)

(Surely, there's a way to sail to Cartegena and San Andres Island. Back when the ships were wooden and the men were steal, they sailed there often! LOL!)

Thanks a bunch, Jacques!

Scaling the boat up and the program down is a good plan.
BoatBuilderCentral may put together a kit for the hull only scaled 10% up.

Electric drives improve very fast and I don't keep up with all the changes but . . . I would follow the youtube link I posted: sailing UMA. They have a video about rig and motor installation. They also put it all together on a well done web page. They are frugal people and motor as little as possible but it works.
https://www.sailinguma.com/the-motor
It all depends on how you sail
I had a 9 HP on a 41' sailboat, crossed from Europe to Africa then to the Caribbean and burned less that 5 gallons of diesel.
If that's how you see it, an inexpensive electric set up is a good choice.
If you plan to motor often, then electric is not good solution.

To go to Cartagena and that area, from the US east coast, you must sail in direction of Bermuda and then make a smooth turn towards the middle of the Atlantic, keep turning until you reach the Trade Winds, about 3 weeks total. You can also jump from one island to the other but that is called the thorny path for a reason.

Hi Jacques,

First of all, thank you for your responses. They are proving very helpful.

I like the idea of scaling up by 10%. This will give an additional 84 centimeters LOA. I have decided to go ahead and build a 1:10 scale model of the scaled-up deminsions and I can visualize how to best use this space. For example reconfiguring the head and stretching it by 20 cm it looks like I will be able to create a rain locker (that is a shower in Navy terms for those that do not know.) I'd also like to study the space to see if there is any benefit in the salon and also in the cockpit.

By the way, I have been following "Sailing Uma" and how they have utilize technology and space on their boat. They have been very informative and I plan to use a lot of their ideas. An electric Drive motor is very feasible, and they changed their original electric motor to a sail drive that has regeneration. Ingenius! a straight drive shaft is actually more cost-effective so I will be studying that also in the model.

Anyway, I will keep you informed of the scale model project and post pictures as I develop it. If you have any thoughts about scaling up 10% and what this means for stations, frames and bulkheads, balast, mast and rigging, etc I would really appreciate your feedback. Also, where can the additional length be best utilized.

Best regards, Kerry

I forgot to add a couple of questions. when scaling up by 10% do the origins change? Namely the baseline in the water line? If they do would you mind recalculating the baseline / waterline?

Thanks, Kerry

The location of the dimensions origin does not matter but keep it constant.
In my 3D models,I usually put it at the cutwater which is the intersection of the bow with the waterline.

When scaled by 10%, the displacement for that same waterline will be 33% larger. Your hull framing weight will increase by 21%, same for rig etc. That means you can increase the ballast by 33% or even more. The stability will increase, the payload increases, all positive points.

You can keep the frames spacing as they come out when scaled 10%. I would increase the scantlings by about 25% for example, wherever I specify 10 mm ply as a core, go for 12 mm. I will check the fiberglass.

It's a bigger boat, it's going to cost more in materials, I guess 22% since we scale surface.

Every thing that is a length will be scaled by 10%. That means multiply by a factor of 1.1.
The surfaces will automatically scale by the square of 1.1 = 1.21.
The volumes (displacement, tankage, ballast weight etc.) will be come 33% greater.
No need to do any other math than scaling the dimensions for the hull.
I will help with checking the specs for hull materials and rig but I am not worried since I already have a generous safety margin in the plans specs.

Hi Jacques, I need some help with understanding the dimensions on the expanded plates for the hull. Perhaps I am not reading the plans correctly. If you look at the chine panel along the reference line the chamber starts with 4, 10, 22, 41 etc. I don't understand where 4mm starts, or the distance between each as you go down the reference line. I assumed the distance between each is 611 mm but when I measure it with the divider it is not. I am having the same you confusion with the top side panel. Can you please clear this up? Thank you.

Please refer to the drawing numbers but I found it. It looks like your question is about D272/7, chine panel.

All dimensions are on vertical lines every 611 mm.
All vertical dimensions are from the baseline (BL).
For example, for the pair marked 10 and 824:
the point on the keel line is 10 mm above the BL
the point on the chine line is 824 mm above the BL.

Don't use a divider to check. If you see a difference, you may measure in the wrong place: the arrow tip is along an extension mark that is too small to print properly. Don't try to scale from paper please.
And if you use the PDF as a background in CAD, do not click on the arrow tip: it is not necessarily on the vertical line because of the arrow extension.
Trust the figures, not the way PDF prints lines.
For example, the 611 Typ is correct but the 638 next to it looks like it is a few mm to the right but that is because the extension line does not print well. Take a magnifier and look at the next one, 746. I can see the very small extension line when printed larger scale.

Thank you. I understand the vertical dimensioning. I'm confused on the horizontal dimensions along the baseline where the chamber starts, for example where does 4 mm start? I don't see a dimension that specifies.

Belay my last. I understand now.

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:06 pm The location of the dimensions origin does not matter but keep it constant.
In my 3D models,I usually put it at the cutwater which is the intersection of the bow with the waterline.

When scaled by 10%, the displacement for that same waterline will be 33% larger. Your hull framing weight will increase by 21%, same for rig etc. That means you can increase the ballast by 33% or even more. The stability will increase, the payload increases, all positive points.

You can keep the frames spacing as they come out when scaled 10%. I would increase the scantlings by about 25% for example, wherever I specify 10 mm ply as a core, go for 12 mm. I will check the fiberglass.

It's a bigger boat, it's going to cost more in materials, I guess 22% since we scale surface.

Every thing that is a length will be scaled by 10%. That means multiply by a factor of 1.1.
The surfaces will automatically scale by the square of 1.1 = 1.21.
The volumes (displacement, tankage, ballast weight etc.) will be come 33% greater.
No need to do any other math than scaling the dimensions for the hull.
I will help with checking the specs for hull materials and rig but I am not worried since I already have a generous safety margin in the plans specs.

Hi Jacques

You mentioned to increase the scantlings by about 25%. For the bottom panel, will an 18mm panel be too thick to make the curve? Should I use 13mm and cold mold 6mm panels over it?

I am working out the nesting for a 10% increase in dimension. Are there any concerns about where the seams are on any piece? For example, I will have to turn the bottom panel so the beam is across the 8ft length vs. the 4ft width as it is currently. This will create an additional seam.

You also mentioned checking the spec for hull materials and rigging. Any concerns there? Will it require a different mast?

Thanks.

decision made to scale by 10%?
If yes, then you should increase the bottom panel thickness to 18 mm.
18 mm will not bend easily. I would use 12 + 6 or even 10 plus 2*6.
The second one is much easier: one layer of 10 plus two diagonal layers of 6 mm. That solves the panel width problem.

Yes, the rigging should also increase in size.

Please refer to dwg B272/14, the drawing in the upper left corner, a leading edge shaped around PVC. What is this referring to?

Please refer to dwg B272/15, the CB in the down position. What do the 2 dashed lines inside the "torpedo" shape indicate?

Thanks. Kerry

Kerry Price wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:34 pm Please refer to dwg B272/14, the drawing in the upper left corner, a leading edge shaped around PVC. What is this referring to?

It shows how to create the leading edge of the keel.

Please refer to dwg B272/15, the CB in the down position. What do the 2 dashed lines inside the "torpedo" shape indicate?

That's the profile (a section) of the CB.

Hi Jacques - planning is progressing very well. I'm in the middle of selling my house (down sizing) and I can't start the build until after I move. This is allowing my plenty of time to plan and think through the project. I have settled on increasing the VG26 by 10% and I have a few more questions:

1) All volumes increase by 33%, including ballast I presume. Please refer to DWG B272/14, the note in the bottom left, "Fill keel with lead (minimum denstity = 7) for a total weight of 23 kg." Please verify "23 kgs." Is this a typo?

2) Refer to DWG D272/26. By increasing the sailboat by 10%, I'm assuming the sail plan and rigging also increase proportionally. Would you be willing to recalculate the sails and rigging for me so I don't make a mistake in the calculations? I can do the math, but I would be more comfortable with a second eye.

3) Do you have any opinions about Colligo Marine's solutions to using synthetic rigging? I've been reading Brion Toss's book, "The Complete Rigger's Apprentice" and also notice that he is a Colligo Marine certified rigger. Ultimately, I want to do the rigging myself and save the thousands of $$ of having it done for me. Interested in your thoughts.

Your advise and thoughts are much appreciated.

Kerry

Kerry Price wrote: ↑Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:59 pm

1) All volumes increase by 33%, including ballast I presume. Please refer to DWG B272/14, the note in the bottom left, "Fill keel with lead (minimum denstity = 7) for a total weight of 23 kg." Please verify "23 kgs." Is this a typo?

Yes, it is a big typo. The total ballast is what I show on the study plans: 2500 lbs or 1,136 kg.
See the building notes about keeping some as trim ballast but you are far from that point. Right now, you can use 1,136 kg as a starting point.

2) Refer to DWG D272/26. By increasing the sailboat by 10%, I'm assuming the sail plan and rigging also increase proportionally. Would you be willing to recalculate the sails and rigging for me so I don't make a mistake in the calculations? I can do the math, but I would be more comfortable with a second eye.

The sails are an area and the SA will increase by 1.1^2. The standing and running rigging must be recalculated. Not a big deal but you are a couple years away from that point.

3) Do you have any opinions about Colligo Marine's solutions to using synthetic rigging?

Dyneema or synthetic rigging did not exist at the time of the design but it is good solution since you can do a lot of work your self.
There are lots of Youtube videos about doing it yourself. Research it, get some books but for those last two questions, don't rush things. Build a hull first.