Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

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narfi
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Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by narfi »

Roughly three+ years ago I purchased plans for the HC14 and FS17 and ordered all the supplies to build both as well as a Shelterlogic tent to build them in.
That is (mostly) finished now.

At that same time I started a thread on the homebuiltairplanes forum asking advice on a father/son project for a plane we could build together once the boats were finished. I kept that thread active over the last couple years and it has meandered all around through dreams both practical and impractical. It was good for me to be thinking and planning about what is and isn't possible, what is and isn't realistic, and what we would enjoy so that when the time came it was easy for me to quickly order the plans for the plane we are starting to build.

The goal is to finish it within approximately 3 years at which point he will be 14 and can start learning to fly. (he can legally solo when he is 16)

Since the planning for this stage of our life/building project is done, it is time to start the next.

My wife hates flying but loves boats and the water. It was actually her request that had us building boats before planes in the timeline of things :)...... she is also the wiser and smarter of us, and we are both very happy with the boat and the fun we had with it this summer.

So the next big project would start in roughly 3-4 years and I would expect to take 3-5 years to complete.
A power catamaran seems the ideal we would compare most things to at this point, however we are not wealthy and doubt that will change between now and then........ Operating cost will be important which it would seem points towards sailing.
Neither of us have any experience or knowledge of sailing, so the idea would be sometime in the next couple of years do a learning vacation at a sailing school somewhere. (any suggestions on the most economical way of doing this?)

In a perfect world we would return to Alaska in the summers and then head south again in the fall. Probably get to Alaska late May and leave early October. Perhaps some summers in Ontario Canada instead of Alaska.
I don't know how wind and weather work seasonally, other than that they probably do.... is traveling these directions at this time even practical?

We spent all weekend watching 'youtubers' on various ~40-45ft sailing catamarans but were left with a feeling that we weren't really seeing the full picture. Because of who we are and where we live, isolation and provisioning don't really concern us much, but we do wonder about the realities of weather and maintenance etc......

We would never be in a hurry to get anywhere and are both fairly risk adverse, so we wouldn't make 'stupid' choices, but I realize sometimes you don't make the choices that get you into trouble.

What are the realities for cost of living differences between pure power boats and motor sailers?

I guess that's enough for an intro, we have lots of time and no clue what we really want, so throw your ideas and dreams at us so we can start sorting through them :)
Links to people doing that sort of thing would be useful as well, I have just started googling, but not found alot yet.... I am sure there are some good specific communities out there somewhere.

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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by jacquesmm »

narfi wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:32 pm What are the realities for cost of living differences between pure power boats and motor sailers?
Not much. There is an initial investment in the rig but the engine will be smaller. Question of maintenance, a tiny little bit more for the sails but not much. I suppose we are discussing displacement hulls.
The big advantage of a motor sailor or sail boat is that he can take worse weather and is much more comfortable. Fuel cost close to nothing.

I am retired now and was a serious sailor. I prefer a motor sailor but at 74, I don't have the same strength and balance as 10 years ago. I have a small trawler TW28 style.
Since you watched Youtube videos about it, check the episode by Tula's Endless summer in which they compare sail boats and trawlers. BTW, Billy and Sierra are BBC customers. They fixed their cat with BBC epoxy, glass and plywood. BBC is listed as a sponsor in some episodes.

https://tulasendlesssummer.com/trawler-vs-catamaran/

We are still discussing the Great Loop boat concept in another thread and I keep coming back to the idea of a motor sailor but many potential builders have requested a cruise speed of about 10 knots. If that requirement did not exist, I would propose a motor sailor.

You give us a time table but what is the budget? What kind of comfort do you expect? Separate sleeping quarters? For 2 or 3? Full time living on the boat or keep your house and commute? Going back and forth with the seasons, is that with the boat or by car? Here in Florida, we have what we call snowbirds: retired people who come down in the winter and go back home in the summer. They store the boat dry in the summer, not a bad solution.
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narfi
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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by narfi »

jacquesmm wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:13 pm
Not much. There is an initial investment in the rig but the engine will be smaller. Question of maintenance, a tiny little bit more for the sails but not much. I suppose we are discussing displacement hulls.
The big advantage of a motor sailor or sail boat is that he can take worse weather and is much more comfortable. Fuel cost close to nothing.
Yes I was assuming displacement in the comparison..... how much fuel would be consumed by a live aboard say from Alaska down the coast and over into the Caribbean?
jacquesmm wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:13 pm I am retired now and was a serious sailor. I prefer a motor sailor but at 74, I don't have the same strength and balance as 10 years ago. I have a small trawler TW28 style.
Since you watched Youtube videos about it, check the episode by Tula's Endless summer in which they compare sail boats and trawlers. BTW, Billy and Sierra are BBC customers. They fixed their cat with BBC epoxy, glass and plywood. BBC is listed as a sponsor in some episodes.

we watched that episode last night.


jacquesmm wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:13 pm
We are still discussing the Great Loop boat concept in another thread and I keep coming back to the idea of a motor sailor but many potential builders have requested a cruise speed of about 10 knots. If that requirement did not exist, I would propose a motor sailor.
How does a sailboat work on rivers in regards to powering and bridges etc.... I assume both would be issues?

jacquesmm wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:13 pm
You give us a time table but what is the budget? What kind of comfort do you expect? Separate sleeping quarters? For 2 or 3? Full time living on the boat or keep your house and commute? Going back and forth with the seasons, is that with the boat or by car? Here in Florida, we have what we call snowbirds: retired people who come down in the winter and go back home in the summer. They store the boat dry in the summer, not a bad solution.
Full time living for 6+ months at a time, perhaps year round eventually.
Comfort for my wife a must which does include separate sleeping quarters and heads for guests.... Primarily just the 2 of us with guest space for 4 more.
My thought was 'snowbirding' with the boat, but perhaps if that's not practical flying or driving could be considered as a bonus adventure. I would like to do the inside passage a few times at least though before I die.

budget...... more than I have? :) I assume it will cost me over 100k but that can be amortized over the period of the build with some of the higher priced items coming in toward the end.... If I run out of money I just have to build slower, a few extra years wont kill us yet.

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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by Netpackrat »

narfi wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:57 pm How does a sailboat work on rivers in regards to powering and bridges etc.... I assume both would be issues?
No personal experience but there are a lot of videos on the tube of you, of sailboats that tried to go under bridges and didn't quite make it. 8O But also on routes like the ICW, etc it appears that there are a lot of drawbridges that either open at certain times, and/or you call ahead for an opening as you approach the bridge. Other ways you will see, are hanging a big weight off the mast and heeling a monohull over to lower the effective mast height while clearing a bridge... Not really possible in a sailing catamaran.

The "Sailing Yacht Ruby Rose" channel had a series not long ago about taking their 38 or 40 foot Southerly from the Med to the north of France through the canal system. They had the mast unstepped and strapped down in cradles atop the boat, and they were barely able to clear everything. Their boat has a centerboard and shallow draft, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to do it.

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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by narfi »

From a little bit of googling it seems some of the common production ~45ft sailing catamarans will motor only w/ 1 engine at roughly 5-6kts and just under 1gph. (so just a little over 6mpg) That seems very good if its real, which it seems it is as the same rough numbers show up across different forums. They get slightly more speed at higher rpms(more fuel) or running both engines (more fuel) but for economical motoring they use just 1 at a time.

That is about a quarter the speed my fs17 is comfortable at(it goes faster but seems to like ~20-24ish) but it would be hauling an entire 'apartment' around....

It really does push the scale towards motor only, how bad is the droning sound of an engine at 2000-2200rpm all day while underway? Probably not a factor but curious.

Now in the realms of fantasy.....
Solar Electric motors at those speeds? I don't see the math adding up for surface area needed for panels to maintain the 15+kw needed?? But if the tech is there (or will be in 8years) perhaps solar+decently sized range extending generator would be practical?

Towing Kites? I know even less of them than I do of traditional sailing, but supposedly there are self automated ones that will fly in figure 8s and pull up to 10x(sales claims?) as much as same sqft of sail would. The downside is they only work down wind, but perhaps as comfort sailors we would only be sailing downwind anyways and motoring the rest of the time? (again I dont know the realities of such things)
The obvious upside is some 'free' power at certain times while still leaving all the space for 'luxury' living.

90% of the time we would be enjoying destinations, very little worry about propulsion costs during those times, but the long distances getting to those destinations need to be accounted for practically. (going up and down both the east and west coasts.... perhaps even going over to Europe or Australia some day......)

https://skysails-yacht.com/technology.html

https://www.silent-yachts.com/silent55/

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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by rick berrey »

narfi , you might want to look at the Great Loop cruiser thread . As for a mast on a river trip most are no problem if you step them , or you are willing to wait on a bridge to lift or swing . I for one would like a working mast on the GL cruiser , not sure that will happen , but the para sail you show might be a workable , and fun option .

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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by jonnymac »

I live just off the Erie Canal/Mohawk River in Upstate New York, and I have seen lots of sail boats come through in the summer with their mast stepped. I'm assuming they are mostly great loopers.

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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by Jeff »

Wow Narfi, very cool planning for your retirement!!! I look for ward to hearing more!!! Jeff

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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by Evan_Gatehouse »

From a little bit of googling it seems some of the common production ~45ft sailing catamarans will motor only w/ 1 engine at roughly 5-6kts and just under 1gph. (so just a little over 6mpg) That seems very good if its real, which it seems it is as the same rough numbers show up across different forums. They get slightly more speed at higher rpms(more fuel) or running both engines (more fuel) but for economical motoring they use just 1 at a time.
Our fairly light 40' catamaran with a single Yanmar 27 HP diesel would do 5 knots at 0.63 GPH.
Now in the realms of fantasy.....
Solar Electric motors at those speeds? I don't see the math adding up for surface area needed for panels to maintain the 15+kw needed?? But if the tech is there (or will be in 8years) perhaps solar+decently sized range extending generator would be practical?
Still in the realms of fantasy right now. A decent solar panel will you 150 Watts / m2. So to get 15 kW (15,000 W) you would need ~100 m2 or
1100 square feet. There was a small solar powered ship (100' long?) that crossed the Atlantic. It was entirely covered in solar panels.

Honestly your everyday living costs will far exceed fuel costs. Say you take a year to do the Great Loop, or about 6000 miles.
https://www.captainjohn.org/GL-5-Scoop.html
If you travel at 6 knots that's 1000 hours. Say your fictional catamaran burns 1 GPH. So that's 1000 gallons of fuel. That's a few thousand dollars.

Maintenance, groceries, marina bills, health insurance (if you're American I think than be costly), the odd car rental, some shore excursions, visiting a museum, restaurants etc. etc. will add up to maybe 20 or 30K / year depending on your lifestyle.
designer: FB11/GV10,11,13/ HMD18/
SK17,MM21/MT24

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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by narfi »

Evan_Gatehouse wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:50 am

Our fairly light 40' catamaran with a single Yanmar 27 HP diesel would do 5 knots at 0.63 GPH.



Honestly your everyday living costs will far exceed fuel costs. Say you take a year to do the Great Loop, or about 6000 miles.
https://www.captainjohn.org/GL-5-Scoop.html
If you travel at 6 knots that's 1000 hours. Say your fictional catamaran burns 1 GPH. So that's 1000 gallons of fuel. That's a few thousand dollars.

Maintenance, groceries, marina bills, health insurance (if you're American I think than be costly), the odd car rental, some shore excursions, visiting a museum, restaurants etc. etc. will add up to maybe 20 or 30K / year depending on your lifestyle.
So you design boats, and have a large catamaran, I assume you live aboard?
What questions should I be asking, what should I be looking for as I research a project like this?

Is your boat(yacht?) a motor sailor, or is it purely a powerboat?
What would your wife advise?

My wife and I both see the romance in sailing, but are fearful (not really fearful, maybe timid?) of the process, work and clutter that seem to be associated with it. I feel that most of that would be resolved with training and experience, but there is something to the cleaner and larger living space of the pure powerboats.

The other question I guess would be speed, if a sailing catamaran goes 12kts and a power cat motoring economically goes 5-7kts, which one gets there first? I assume it is a case of the tortoise and the hare? Though in this case the hare can still go at tortoise speeds when taking his naps.......

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