Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

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cape man
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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by cape man »

Probably get to Alaska late May and leave early October.
Too funny! That is the exact opposite of our plans for retirement. Leave home early May and return in October. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by narfi »

cape man wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:16 am
Probably get to Alaska late May and leave early October.
Too funny! That is the exact opposite of our plans for retirement. Leave home early May and return in October. :lol: :lol:
hehe... so you are coming with us?

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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by Jaysen »

if you are ok with displacement speeds, then the sailing boat would not get there any slower then the non-sailing (assuming all hull and power variables are the same). The COST of getting there will likely be lower on the power cat once you factor in the TOTAL COST OF OWnERSHIP between the two.

The mess of sailing comes down to organization and willingness to give up some storage space. Having dedicated space for sail storage reduces space for ... random stuff storage. Line management in the cockpit is just a matter of having "a place" for every line then putting the line in that place EVERY TIME. In my experience messy sail boats are either symptoms of messy minds or the result of an OH SH!T moment that has not been recovered from. I would also suggest that messy cockpits/storage/galley on a sailboat is a danger sign. Most of the accidents I have been in or witnessed would have been reduced with less mess on the boat.

You all know that I am a die hard "no motor" guy. Unless you really really really really really like the idea of sailing, or plan to circumnavigate the globe by wind, I don't think I would recommend a sailing cat. The upkeep alone will drive you nuts. The noise of lines/halyards in the wind will cause you to lose your mind. The issues with bridges, portages, and rigging will cause you to further question the sanity of die hard blow boat sailors. Motors will save you $$. Go for a speedier hull and get there fast no matter which way the wind blows. You won't need to worry about missing a transit dead line either.

That said, there is a LOT to be said for sailing. I know you all want the extra space, but a 45-50' monohull might be big enough and you will likely find it to be more cost effective compared to a sailing cat. If you get a semi planing hull (look at swan) you will likely get into the speed of cats as well.

I shall now climb back into my sail bag and mutter about knotted lines that were not stowed properly.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by jacquesmm »

The halyard noise is not an issue. I sailed for 40 years, lived aboard for 7 or 8 years and halyard noise never lasted more than a few minutes: the time it takes to move them to another cleat or to install a shock cord.

Comparing cost between a displacement hull motor boat and a sailboat should not show any difference.

Bridges are a problem but again, how important is speed? If you want to go somewhere fast, fly or drive. Boating should be about enjoying time at sea.

I find sailboats more enjoyable, trawlers roll too much. A motor sailor is an excellent compromise.
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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by narfi »

jacquesmm wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:03 pm A motor sailor is an excellent compromise.
Thanks, this is the direction my mind has been going.
I know Woods has some good options, but there are quite a few plans out there.
Do you have any suggestions of good designers to look into or bad ones to stay away from?

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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by Evan_Gatehouse »

Stay away from Bruce Roberts. Plans are incomplete and the structural adequacy of some of his work is very questionable.
And his boats are ugly. Life is too short to build an ugly boat.
designer: FB11/GV10,11,13/ HMD18/
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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by Evan_Gatehouse »

So you design boats, and have a large catamaran, I assume you live aboard?
What questions should I be asking, what should I be looking for as I research a project like this?
Our catamaran was a sailboat and fairly light at 7 tons fully loaded for cruising and living aboard. We sailed it around the world. Lived on it for 8 years.

First question: do you want to build a boat or go voyaging or both? That's not a trick or stupid question. Some people really like to build a boat and enjoy the process. Others really like the voyage and build or modify a boat but the trip is the thing. Few like both equally.

I'd say build a boat if you can't find an existing boat that suits your needs.

And read. Read lots. Start with your local library, check out inter library loans. start with some classic sailors on a budget Lin and Larry Pardey. They sailed around the world several times in a 24' and 30' self built wooden sailboat. With no engine. They represent the extreme end of the sailing community.

Then read Robert Beebe "Voyaging under Power" and his articles for Passagemaker (a magazine focused on cruising under power)
Is your boat(yacht?) a motor sailor, or is it purely a powerboat?

What would your wife advise?
When I said it would take about a year to modify our catamaran to suit us, she thought working part time and I meant full time for a year. It was 4 years working on weekends. Clarify your goals. Make sure you both have reasonable expectations that match.
My wife and I both see the romance in sailing, but are fearful (not really fearful, maybe timid?) of the process, work and clutter that seem to be associated with it. I feel that most of that would be resolved with training and experience, but there is something to the cleaner and larger living space of the pure powerboats.
Eh, clutter is the least of it I'd say. Yes a powerboat of similar length will have more room than a sailboat but it's a small space no matter what you think. It was easy to go from a 600 sq ft apartment to a catamaran which actually seemed larger!

Sailing is relatively easy to learn the basic skills and a lifetime to master. But honestly the engine, plumbing, electrical, propane system, fiberglass repairs are the same to sailboats and powerboats. Pick a sailboat if you like to sail and want to cross oceans economically.
The other question I guess would be speed, if a sailing catamaran goes 12kts and a power cat motoring economically goes 5-7kts, which one gets there first? I assume it is a case of the tortoise and the hare? Though in this case the hare can still go at tortoise speeds when taking his naps.......
No typical sailing catamaran AVERAGES 12 knots. You might hit 8 knots in hour boat for a few hours at a time but faster is more stressful and harder on the boat (well unless you're racing :) - we averaged 6 knots under sail and that was a nice easy pace; very relaxed. The one thing we did have was the ability to turn on the speed when conditions were right and get to a destination before dark.
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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by Netpackrat »

One thing you might do is take whatever the sailing class is that allows you to do the bare boat charter thing, and do that for your vacations before you are ready to commit to a boat. Seek out different types of boat and get a feel for what you like and whether you think you might like it as a lifestyle.

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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by jacquesmm »

Excellent comments by Evan, pay attention to the choice between building and buying.
I don't sell plans for that type of boat and can be objective.

Here in Florida, I often see great deals on older sailboats. Maintained by old sailors who knew their stuff but became a little too rusty go out again and want to move ashore. We call that swallowing the anchor :) .
Many of those boats can be used as a motorsailor if the engine and fuel tanks are large enough.
Check the draft: a shallow draft will give you access to more places and allow you to hide from hurricanes or big storms.
Sometimes, the value of the gear and sails is greater than the asking price.
A couple years ago, I checked some for my granddaughter and on one, there was enough spare hardware to open a ship chandler.
If you build, you must buy all that.

Or you can buy a fixer up and adapt it to your needs.

Look at those, search done in a few minutes, all close to my house:
https://treasure.craigslist.org/boa/d/v ... 52483.html
Great boat, great price but too deep to my tsate.

https://treasure.craigslist.org/boa/d/p ... 04867.html
Small but exceptional value

https://spacecoast.craigslist.org/boa/d ... 92126.html
I can't believe the price!

https://spacecoast.craigslist.org/bod/d ... 87621.html
and many many more, There are a bunch of Morgan 41's for sale around 40K and draft is only 4'. Not as great as the ones above but good deals.
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Re: Retiring and/or Snowbirding on the water

Post by narfi »

Netpackrat wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:36 pm One thing you might do is take whatever the sailing class is that allows you to do the bare boat charter thing, and do that for your vacations before you are ready to commit to a boat. Seek out different types of boat and get a feel for what you like and whether you think you might like it as a lifestyle.
Yes, of course, we would do this before we built anything.

Evan_Gatehouse wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:53 pm Stay away from Bruce Roberts.
Noted. And thanks.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:05 pm
First question: do you want to build a boat or go voyaging or both? That's not a trick or stupid question. Some people really like to build a boat and enjoy the process. Others really like the voyage and build or modify a boat but the trip is the thing. Few like both equally.
As an exageration..... I love to build things and my wife wants to live on the water, she is ok with me building things and I am ok with living on the water......
The reality though is we both are very excited about that type of lifestyle (maybe just a stage of life and it will pass, but we want to explore the possibilities and test it out like already mentioned above).
We both are tied to our location for work for 2+ weeks per month for the foreseeable future, so our timeline of 8-10 years leaves me with the 'need' for a serious project.
I loved building Jacques' HC14 and FS17 which we just finished, and now have started building an all aluminum airplane from plans. As an example of me enjoying the work, the plane we are building can be purchased in kit form, all the aluminum parts are cnc cut and formed and match drilled from the factory, the first kit was built and flying in ~2 months(by experienced builders). We(I) wanted more of a challenge and purchased only the plans and blueprints, we will cut out all the aluminum by hand, build formers for bending each individual rib and piece, drill all our own holes, etc..... to get us to the 'kit' stage, before we can even begin our assembly process. I expect it will take us roughly 3 years.

Evan_Gatehouse wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:53 pm I'd say build a boat if you can't find an existing boat that suits your needs.
There are plenty of used boats that would suit our needs(in our ignorance any of the big name production catamarans coming off of charter look attractive), they aren't inland in Alaska, they arent budgeted out over the next 8-10 years, and I don't know their structures and systems inside and out.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:53 pm And read. Read lots. Start with your local library, check out inter library loans. start with some classic sailors on a budget Lin and Larry Pardey. They sailed around the world several times in a 24' and 30' self built wooden sailboat. With no engine. They represent the extreme end of the sailing community.

Then read Robert Beebe "Voyaging under Power" and his articles for Passagemaker (a magazine focused on cruising under power)
Thanks, I will look into those books specifically. We have no local library, but perhaps I can find Kindle or ebook versions of them.

Evan_Gatehouse wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:53 pm When I said it would take about a year to modify our catamaran to suit us, she thought working part time and I meant full time for a year. It was 4 years working on weekends. Clarify your goals. Make sure you both have reasonable expectations that match.
Yes very good advice. We would be building right next to our house, so one of the major distractors of time for some builders isnt there, I will be able to pop out and do something if only for 15 minutes or to even just look at it for 5 and get my mind working on the next steps. I have found I can easily maintain 20+ hours a week on projects in the summer, and go stir crazy when confined indoors in the winter, but with the heated shop instead of tent, I will be able to work year around.

Evan_Gatehouse wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:53 pm Eh, clutter is the least of it I'd say. Yes a powerboat of similar length will have more room than a sailboat but it's a small space no matter what you think. It was easy to go from a 600 sq ft apartment to a catamaran which actually seemed larger!

Sailing is relatively easy to learn the basic skills and a lifetime to master. But honestly the engine, plumbing, electrical, propane system, fiberglass repairs are the same to sailboats and powerboats. Pick a sailboat if you like to sail and want to cross oceans economically.
In regards to all the systems, in my mind they will take as much or more time than the structure.... Is that something that designers usually have included, or is it assumed the design is just the structure and the builder is responsible for figuring out all systems?


One I have seen that looks nice is the Schionning Solitaire or perhaps Arrow look nice, the Solitaire specifically because it does seem to focus on maximizing living space.(we have no interest in racing)
From all the videos we have watched, most walk through/discussions are on production boats. So a few of our observations from watching them,
We have no need for 4 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms, but 1 on each side with separation does seem nice.
We have no need to seat or feed 20 people, but we do like our space, so would want to maximize both saloon and cockpit size while maintaining the galley up (wife is adamant about that) However we don't need a huge galley either and from what we see most of the production layouts really cut up both the saloon and cockpit with lots of benches and tables in the middle of everything, so we would want most stuff laid out around the parameter with larger open spaces. And tables stowed unless entertaining.
One thought was a good sized work room in the aft half of one of the hulls accessible only from outside so all dust and smells etc... could be vented out instead of through. Not sure if that is a realistic idea or not, but would be much preferable over an extra bedroom and head.(more than 2 heads seems wasteful)

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