Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Hello all. I'm Naylene. I just started this boat. To set myself up for success, I bought the cnc kit. We, my father and I, got the strongback built today.
Next week we will start installing the frames. I know I'm going to have lots of questions. I read many other build threads and the one GT 27 build. You are all very kind with your wisdom and helpful input. I know I will be asking for some of that wise input..
Until next week,
Naylene

Naylene, Great to see you on the Builders Forum!!!! We welcome you and very much look forward to your build!!!! Please post photos and keep us up to date!!! Again, welcome, Jeff

Welcome to the forum, the GT23 is a neat design so please share as many photos as possible! There's a couple completed boats with photos floating around here somewhere, maybe more.

George

Thank you. I will start posting pics soon.

Strong back is finished. Thank
BL is base line=water line

LaChefels wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:41 pm Strong back is finished. Thank
BL is base line=water line

In many cases the Base Line (BL) is the water line. However, a true water line will need to be marked once the hull is in the water. The theoretical water line and actual water line can change due to fluctuations in weight. For building purposes, the BL sits at the bottom of the sole on the GT23. This is simply a reference point at which the frames and panels are measured from. The BL gives the builder a consistent reference point to accurately align the frames.

-Reid

Could this be a woman builder? We welcome women builders and it is refreshing if so.

A self leveling laser level and an empire 4' level are some of my most important tools.

Good luck.

Thank you Reid.
Hey FallGuy,
Yes I am a woman building a boat and the first build. I will be asking many questions, some of which will undoubtedly be less than smart. I apologize in advance.

LaChefels wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:04 pm I will be asking many questions, some of which will undoubtedly be less than smart. I apologize in advance.

No need to worry about that... They tolerated my ignorance, and according to my wife, they don't come any less smart than me. Ask away and the smart ones here will be quick to help.

Another Texan gal boat builder, cool
Welcome and a couple things. We love pictures. And there are no dumb questions. Any of us who have built a boat have made plenty of mistakes. With a build thread hopefully we can help you avoid some of them.

Thanks so much. I will start pics this week. This is fun and scary at the same time.

Not only does sharing pics feed our desire to see boat stuff, but it can also help you because sometimes one of the experienced builders may notice something in your pic that can cause you trouble and have the chance to alert you to the issue long before you would have found it to be an issue.

So yes, ask as many questions as you can and shares as many pictures as you're willing to share.

gstanfield wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:44 pm Not only does sharing pics feed our desire to see boat stuff, but it can also help you because sometimes one of the experienced builders may notice something in your pic that can cause you trouble and have the chance to alert you to the issue long before you would have found it to be an issue.

So yes, ask as many questions as you can and shares as many pictures as you're willing to share.

Let me add a couple more good reasons- a detailed build thread will help future builders of the GT23 as they work through the same steps you are, and it will possibly serve you in the future if you need to or want to see what you did, the record will be here and all together.

I think there is also an element of encouragement from the folks here that you might find helps you keep going through the tedious parts. Okay, that was more than two!

Naylene, just glad to have you on the Forum!!! We welcome all questions!!! Jeff

One of the things I see frequently when looking at old threads is broken links to their photos, which pretty much contain the most useful information. I'd suggest uploading your pics to a builder gallery at this site, rather than trusting anywhere else. I like Imgur, e.g., but five years from now who knows what their situation will be.

If you need help figuring out how to get your pictures into a gallery or into a post, ask a question- lots of knowledgeable people here and criticizers are not tolerated.

Hola
Thanks for all the good advice.
Fall Guy which self leveling laser do you use?

LaChefels wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:11 pm Hola
Thanks for all the good advice.
Fall Guy which self leveling laser do you use?

I bought one that is no longer available, but I will link one close.

This one and a tripod is super helpful.

A really good level is also my most used tool. Empire digital from HD is a bit spendy. I like mine, but the digital got messed up by calibration errors. Think I could fix it better now.

https://www.amazon.com/Tacklife-SC-L01- ... 549&sr=8-5

Skoota is a big boat. Cool.
Questions starting.
In the plans, there are stations A-F. Then, there are frames that attach to the strongback that shape the hull pieces and eventually become the permananent frames with stringers. What are the stations?

I got the cover between the containers yesterday, so finally out of the sun.

LaChefels wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:53 am Skoota is a big boat. Cool.
Questions starting.
In the plans, there are stations A-F. Then, there are frames that attach to the strongback that shape the hull pieces and eventually become the permananent frames with stringers. What are the stations?

I got the cover between the containers yesterday, so finally out of the sun.

Typically, station jigs are used to support the ply panels while they are being stitched and glued. Then the bulkheads or frames are permanent structures that are tabbed into the boat.

The stations are essentially disposable.

This is done in order to provide consistent support on the strongback. That support may not be ideal for the final apportionment of the boat spaces. In my build, there were about 12 stations arranged as a female jig. They are not usable for the final boat at all.

I have not built the specific boat you are building, so if you have very specific questions; ask Mertens.

Here is a good picture of the Skoota female stations. You will be building on a male station jig.

Fallguy is right. The stations are simply temporary frames that are attached to the strongback. They provide the skeleton to wrap the hull panels on. Most of the time, the stations are in the same locations as the permanent frames. Once the hull has been planked, stitched, and fiberglassed the hull is flipped and the stations (molds) are taken out and replaced with the permanent frames and stringers.

Good luck!
Reid

Oh. I suppose sometimes a station can become a bulkhead. Good point Reid.

Thanks for the help Gentlemen. Sorry my reply took so long. I was out of town.

Ok,
We are building the stations today. In the self aligning jig tutorial it reads to attach the stringers to the stations. We watched WES' video of his build of the GT27. He didn't put stringers on until he flipped the boat over. Which method is best?

I wish I could answer for you, but I honestly can only guess. The one nice thing would be it would be easy to keep the stringers aligned on the jigs, but I have not watched many builders do it that way.

Hoping a plywood guy answers for you.

The stringers are there to help support the plywood at this point. The frames and how the plywood bends is what defines the shape. Every set of plans I have all want the stringers installed with the frames before sheeting. That said I do not have a set of GT plans. I hope JM will see this and give to final answer.

In most of my building notes, I write this:

The stations are lines representing transverse sections through the hull. Molds are the parts used to build a jig around which we will plank the hull.
Frames are transverse framing parts. In our building method, with a few rare exceptions, we locate the molds and the frames at the stations.

It may not be included in the GT23 notes.
I should say frames and bulkheads instead of just frames.
A bulkhead is a wall, a full or almost full transversal part, a frame is a bulkhead with a large opening or a part of a bulkhead.
It's just nautical terms but they make sense.

The stations are just drawing lines that we use to build parts. From the stations, we draw the molds, the frames and the bulkheads and in almost all cases, I locate the stations at the frames.

Great Progress the last 2 days. Two gals, two days and boat!!

Great progress. For me this is the best part of a build. You take a bunch of flat parts and boom you have a boat looking thing

I checked out Tarpley. I am planning a move to Corpus Christi.

Boat is taking shape.

I am dreaming about building a flats boat now.

LaChefels, Great progress!!! Jeff

Thank you Fuzz. Fall Guy, Corpus is a great town.
I have a couple of questions:
1. I have stitched together the bottom and side panels. What happens if that wood gets wet before I fillet the joints and put on the resin and fiberglass cloth?
2. Is it wrong to try to stitch together the bow side panels to the bottom panels before the bow transom is in place?
Your help is much appreciated.
Naylene

1. I'd try to get the end grain coated in epoxy before it gets wet. If it does get wet before that I'd sure make sure it was plenty dry before I put epoxy on.

2. No problem

IMHO Dougster

Thank you Dougster.
I've read the epoxy tutorials. I have a question.
How long may I put in the epoxy fillets before I apply fiberglass tape and epoxy resin? Can the fillets just sit there for awhile?
Thank you
Naylene

The short answer is they can sit for as long as you need them to. If you want a more detailed answer just say

Epoxy fillets are a pain to sand and the bonding is secondary. There is so much sanding in a boat, I try to avoid it like the plague.

The best way to fillet is to fillet and tape same day.

Make the fillet material stiff enough so it doesn't sag. This is done by a slump test of sorts.

Mix 3 ounces of epoxy by volume and add about 6-7 ounces of silica to it, pile the homogenous mix up in the pail and watch it. If it moves in say 5-10 seconds; it needs more filler.

After mixing it stiff ebough, move to a board and make it thin to slow down the kick rate.

Make the fillets, then wetout the tapes for a no sanding method. About 98% of my fillets on the Skoota were no sands. There have been a few times when I did not.

Otherwise, epoxy degrades in the sun. So, if you can't tape same day and a few days goes by, sanding is needed. Find a piece of pipe that fits the fillets and get some 40-60 grit sandpapers and sand before tabbing. After you do some fillet sanding, you'll understand why I don't like it in a boat with miles of fillets.

Also, once you apply the tapes, the putty won't sag, so you can also tape immediately after fillets and not worry as much about sagging on verticals.

Thanks for the fillet info Fall Guy.
Always more questions. Where do I find info on prepping wood for resin . I vacuumed the two surfaces I'm going to glue together. These are the pieces for my bow transom. Is there more I should do than vacuum? I looked in the tutorial area but nothing there mentions prep.

LaChefels wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:15 am Thanks for the fillet info Fall Guy.
Always more questions. Where do I find info on prepping wood for resin . I vacuumed the two surfaces I'm going to glue together. These are the pieces for my bow transom. Is there more I should do than vacuum? I looked in the tutorial area but nothing there mentions prep.

Yes. There are some important steps.

Plywood can be resin thirsty. Well, all woods can be. Older wood is especially 'thirsty'.

So, you can precoat all wood with a neat coat of resin on each face. Just mixed epoxy applied at a rate of about 2 oz per yard plus roller losses if you roll it.

Then, I like to wait an hour and then apply thickened resins with a 1/16" vee trowel to each face or a 1/8" vee trowel to one face. The resin must be thickened enough to not slump or sag into a pile. How can you tell? Watch it for 10 seconds in a troweled high pile and see if it moves. If so, add more thickener. I prefer fumed silica, but it can kill you so don't use it without a mask.

Locating pins are helpful. Drill a hole and spot nails into three/4 spots so when the thing is all greased with epoxy; it won't move on you. Nothi g more frustrating than not pinning and comi g back and the thi g has wandered. Well, maybe except for my phone not taking the n's and a space instead. Screws create another issue with varying the bond thickness, so I avoid them.

Then use some weight or vac. 9" of mercury is about 4 psi. But 2 psi is enough.

2 psi on a board say 12"x40" is 1000#. It will be hard for you to achieve that. But I would place some 2x4s or flat timbers on top of the boards after they are pinned and weigh them down with weights on the boards at least a couple hundred pounds, patio blocks work well, for example.

You may want to ship tape the boards where they cross the joints to avoid bonding them.

I have always used vacuum, but you won't need to if you follow my advice

1. Drill and pin four spots or six up to you, four min, pull apart
2. Precoat both sides
3. Vee trowel thixo
4. Put them together and install the pins. I like aluminum nails for pins, by the way. They can stay in.
5. Provide up to 2 psi weight to the boards using timbers to even out the loads to avoid squeezing glue in one spot.

Also, if you haven't got weights, you could buy say 4 bags of concrete or some such and use it. A trash bag filled with water also works, but generally water bags are used to keep down fabric in a vee section. A couple hundred pounds is probably good, but I am guessing on the size. A 1 millimeter final bond is considered perfection.

Thank you for that great info.
I just glued the bow transom together. I hope I did it correctly.

I need some advice.
I did not glue the side panels together before I stitched them to the hull panels. Should I remove them and glue all of the puzzle joints, then stitch them back to the hull panels?
Where the hull panels join the side panels, is this "joint" supposed to be at a right angle or, should the hull panel join the side panel where the inside parts of the two pieces of wood come together to make a "V"?

Not following your question.

Remove the puzzle joints and glue them flat and put them back on.

The joints needs to be flat so they can take a natural curve.

No 'vee' shape should exist vertically on the hullside.

Yes all puzzle joints should be glued before joining other sections. Tom

Thank you gentleman. I'm restarting .

I’m about to start glueing the transoms to the hull panels. Can I use Gel magic ?

Not really needed. You mix epoxy with fumed silica and make a peanut butter mix and put it flat on a board to keep it from kicking. Keep the infill to under 1/2" or so to avoid the epoxy catching fire.

LaChefels wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:01 pm I’m about to start glueing the transoms to the hull panels. Can I use Gel magic ?

If you have Gel Magic sure use it, but fallguys mix is cheaper if you have it.

Tom

Edit to correct spelling.

The most strength in epoxy bonds happens when you prewet the joint with raw epoxy, followed by thickened resins, and supported by tabbing snd laminates.

The times I have seen poor bonda or bond failures are when you do not prewet the wood and the wood drysucks the resins into the wood pores leaving nothing for the bonded area.

Hello Fall guy. Thank you for the info.
Have you moved to Corpus yet?

Not yet.

We are traveling there in March to see how awful the winds are...

Gotta finish the Skoota and get this house fixed up a bit first and sold..and a new house built.

I’m working on the transom. The one thing I’m not sure about is should joint line up flush so that the transom sits inside the sides or should it make a 90 degree angle.

Gotta be honest, your picture is hard to deciper which is which..but I think the heavy stuff is transom.

The best way to do the transom is to drop it into finished hull. Glue it inside. Leave enough gap for thickened epoxy. After bonded, radius all edges. I use a Festool. After glasswork is done, the bottom radius is remade sharp.

Transoms are typically set on 12, up to 14 degree angles from the waterline, but you may already have that in the hullsides.

My transom was dropped into a measured hull for minimal grinding. I probably used some screws to hold it or else hot glue.

Pretty sure the transom goes inside of the side and bottom panels. Might want to check the plans and see if you can tell.
If dropping it inside bed it in some epoxy glue. With all the glass overlaps it will be plenty strong no matter what.

Ideally the outside face of the transom should sit flush with the edges of the hull panels. However, marine plywood has a mind of its own sometimes and you simply cannot get it to sit exactly where you want it. The most important aspect of the build, at this point, is that your panels are lining up with no concave or convex surfaces where there shouldn't be. The panels should be symmetrical. There should be a small gap between all panels to allow room for the fillet (this includes a gap around the transom seams). Ensure that the transom angle is set correctly and that the stringers are lined up correctly with the transom and motor well bulkhead. If all the above is correct and your hull panels do not quite reach the outer face of the transom that is ok. You will simply bridge the gaps with fillet, shape a radius with your sander around the transom seams and proceed to fiberglass tape the seams. Once everything is taped and glassed you will never know the panels were a bit shy.

Good luck and build on!
-Reid

As Reid said the side should line up with the back of the transom. You are going to need a helper one to hold it in place and one to place some scresws in the side to hold it till it dries. Do one side at a time.

Tom

TomW1 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:00 pm As Reid said the side should line up with the back of the transom. You are going to need a helper one to hold it in place and one to place some scresws in the side to hold it till it dries. Do one side at a time.

Tom

that’s not what Reid said exactly, ideally it would but its the least important part. he said make sure everything else is correct and if the side is shy it will be fixed in the glassing process.

Happy Thanksgiving
The transom is in, glued and looks good.
Thanks a bunch for all the great insight. Now I’m onto the bow transom.

Here is a picture of the transom.

Looks great. Tom

Almost done. Just needs a little rounding over and some glass

What is the angle of the transom to waterline?

Picture makes it look vertical is all.

fallguy anything taken head on like that will make it look vertical. I am sure it follows the angle of the the sides. Tom

So, how high is the transom?

I gotta admit some plan confusion on my part.

Is this thing getting bracketed?

It looks like 3 feet high.

What glue are you using?

Everyone here is on a first name basis as well, so it feels odd not knowing your name. I'm Dan.

Hi Dan. Yay first names. I'm Naylene.
I glued in the transom flush with the edge angle provided by the hull side. I wetted all surfaces with resin then used gel magic to glue it together.
Today I rounded over the edges, I hope enough but not too much.

The picture is from the right side of the hull

Looks good Naylene.

Transom looks so high, any idea why?

Good evening Dan,
I believe the transom is the size it is because this is a fairly large boat at 23 ft. I will have to cut out the shape for the the engine to mount because they cut the wrong transon cnc cut. I ordered the motor well not the bracket version which is what I got. I would go ahead a use a bracket but I really don't like the price of a bracket. I'm going with a 50hp yamaha 4 stroke with a tiller extension so I can steer from the back like a canal boat in Europe. Doing so frees up space in the cabin instead of having a steering console.
I really appreciate your help and input.Thank you

LaChefels wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:22 pm Good evening Dan,
I believe the transom is the size it is because this is a fairly large boat at 23 ft. I will have to cut out the shape for the the engine to mount because they cut the wrong transon cnc cut. I ordered the motor well not the bracket version which is what I got. I would go ahead a use a bracket but I really don't like the price of a bracket. I'm going with a 50hp yamaha 4 stroke with a tiller extension so I can steer from the back like a canal boat in Europe. Doing so frees up space in the cabin instead of having a steering console.
I really appreciate your help and input.Thank you

Okay, this makes sense, I was pretty sure it was too big.

Looking out for you all I can.

Transom tops must be glassed.

Build on!

I have a question about prep work. I'm a cook by trade.
We are actually having a winter in texas. Many days at 60-70 but most nights in the 40's. not ideal conditions for epoxy to cure.
My question is, can I coat some of the smaller pieces that get coated in epoxy and coat one side then leave it to dry in my guest bedroom at a good temp then take it out and coat the otherside, am I gaining anything? In pieces, I'm speaking of stringers, bulkheads etc.
Hope you all are well and had good holidays. Send us some rain.

Naylene

Perhaps i should clarify.
I'm building my boat outside. I'm in a holding pattern to glue in the front transom and then glass the hull because of temperatures. I wondering if i can take smaller pieces, coat them in epoxy then move them into a temperature controlled environment like my guest room to dry on one side. Then, take ou to coat other side and move into the room to dry. Is this a waste of epoxy or does it give me a head start when I flip the hull and start the inside processes?
Thanks for the input,
Naylene

Personally I feel like doing anything no matter how small is worth it. Even a small bite every day will get it done and help keep the mojo flowing. If you are having 60-70 temps during the day fast epoxy will cure. It might take a few heat-cool cycles but it will cure. Taking stuff inside will cure for sure.

Epoxy does not 'dry'.

Epoxy cures through a heat reaction.

Overnight low temps retard or slow the cure, but next day temps of 60-70F will cure the epoxy.

So, moving parts to the bedroom is not needed, but you can do it.

A part that does not cure overnight might drip some if kept vertical, but not an issue for most hand laminates except real light ones.

Most epoxies take a full week above 60 for complete cures...but builders want it to be cured enough to handle. Do try to keep parts flat or in situ final place during that week of full curing or they can cure misshapen.

Best of luck.

What kind of wood is going on the inside Naylene?

LaChefels wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:05 pm Perhaps i should clarify.
I'm building my boat outside. I'm in a holding pattern to glue in the front transom and then glass the hull because of temperatures. I wondering if i can take smaller pieces, coat them in epoxy then move them into a temperature controlled environment like my guest room to dry on one side. Then, take ou to coat other side and move into the room to dry. Is this a waste of epoxy or does it give me a head start when I flip the hull and start the inside processes?
Thanks for the input,
Naylene

I built my kayak in my living room so I'm not the person to tell you not to. I will say that I was single at the time and nobody objected. The fumes from epoxy, in an enclosed space, can become overpowering. Long term exposure to epoxy fumes may cause you to become allergic to epoxy. The less you expose yourself, the longer you last before becoming allergic.

Save this trick for a high value, must have smaller part.

Thank you all for responding.
Dan, the wood is meranti. My thinking is that since all the interior gets coated with epoxy, I can go ahead and start on the smaller pieces that I can lift and move around by myself, get them coated with one coat and be ahead of the game once I get the hull glassed and flipped.
Naylene

I just want to know if you are using any hardwoods on the inside of the boat is all. I'm past the prior question. Like the tables or the rooftop timbers or any other natrual wood finishes.

This is an SOS. I'm about to pull out all of my grey hairs. I have a bunch. For the life of me, I can't get the bow transom installed.
I went against my better judgement and screwed both sides of the transom to the side panels. Then while trying to get the hull panels down to the transom, one side of the transom pulled the screws through the side panel ripping out layers of side panel wood. What do I do now? Why is this so ridiculously difficult? It's as if the pieces don't want to fit together. Help please. I really don't want to be bald.

Can you post pictures from a little more away so we get a better over view?
You might need to get creative. Can the plywood be kerfed? Get some ratchet straps and use them to help pull things into shape. You might want to wet the plywood down so it will flex easier. And when using screws get some fender washers to spread the force and keep them from pulling through.

Don't bald over this yet I like gray on a woman but not all of you look good with a shaved head

Well, it is puzzling to understand why there is so much torque going on.

We definitely need a better camera angle.

Don't worry about that little screw pullout. All easy to fix with epoxy.

Everyone torturing plywood at some point needs to learn the limits and how much stress it can take.

You can washer the screwhead, but I'd like to understand better the troubles because the tearout will eventually occur on the other side if the screws are demanding too much.

I am driving not too far from M&Es on say March 18. Any chance that is your place? All I did was google chef naylene and texas. So not really stalker quality work. My wife and son will be with, too. Mind if we stop in for dinner or lunch?

Also, Naylene, so not make those joints super tight; you need room for epoxy putties which should be done after you neat coat the seam. And neat coating means using a paintbrush and wetting the edges of the seam to avoid drysuck.

I see the rabbet you made. Was that in the build notes? A rabbet would mean the wood might need more torture; wish I new the GT23 build better for you.

Hi Fuzz,
To pull the side panels to the transom, I used eye bolts and a ratchet strap. Foolishly, while trying to pull the side panels out to the edges of the hull panels I took off the ratchet strap. Then I used some blocks that I screwed into side panels and a pry bar to pull side panels out to the edge of hull panel and screwed from the hull panel into the block to hold the hull and side panel. after doing this the 2 hull panels were overlapping in the middle. When I tried to get them apart the screws to the transom pulled through the side panel on one side.
Is the meranti plywood repairable?
Here are more photos.

I looked at your pics and sometimes it is just camera angles, but can you measure A and B for me?

also, pretend the other two sides are c and D with D the hull bottom and give us all those dims...it just does not look right to me dimensionally, but like I said, could be camera angles

Also, did you already glue the rabbet on the starboard side? I think that is also making life harder because the bow transom and hull side on the starboard side are closer than they need to be unless specified for the rabbet.

The picture makes the bottom panels look too wide. I am sure this is a dumb question but have you double checked all the measurements? Also what do the plans tell you to do? Should you be putting both transoms in before you lay the bottom panels on? No matter you do not want any panel overlaps. You need enough gap so you can fill it with puddy/glue.

I had, too a slightly lesser degree, this problem with my LB22 build. After lots of fiddle I got it pretty close, but still a bit of overlap in parts of the keel (1/16" or so). Finally, I got sick of dealing with it and took a hand saw down the keel line and boom, no more trouble.

Dougster

Spoke with Reid and Naylene both today. This was a bbc kit; so it should be good, but she was going to double check measures as something seems amiss.

I have one other comment.

The vertical height of the bow transom should be verified. The way to do so would be with a line or laser through a series of holes, or a line on the station and the bow transom. Also, mentioned to open the joint on the starboard side a bit more.

The pvc pipe trick also seems wise here. This is where the pvc pipes say 1" od? are zip tied in and the pvc creates a planned gap of say 3/4" to start and you can fight all the zip ties little by little.

Hopefully Reid/Jacques can comment and Naylene get the measurements.

At this point, measurements are not going to help but here they are taken from the CAD drawing:
length of transom edge, along bottom = 43.319"
length of bottom panel edge = 43.317"
The difference is 2 th of 1", nothing. no difference.
(Edit: this is for the rear transom, see next post for the bow).

I don't see the whole hull but this looks like an alignement problem. Things are skewed.
I read that some edges are already glued, why?
In the building notes I insist on letting the panels float. One should assemble the hull panels with very loose stitches, 1" gap is fine. Then, progressively tighten the stitches until things come together but still leave a small gap.
I see panel edges pushing against each other. That is a problem.
Is it too late to cut through those seams and let the panels free again?

PS: I see mention of a "glued rabbet". I hope this is not a rebate on a panel. That is not necessary in my designs. Could it be that you are talking about the keel and name that the rabbet? If that is glued, the panels will not move anymore. I would cut though it. It will be better and faster than to trim the panels.

I am going to slowly read the whole thread and see if I can find something else.

My comment on a glued rabbet was an error Jacques. She installed cleats to help position things which makes it look like a rabbet.

She only glued the stern transom. The star side is just screwed and can be removed.

Hope I am helping; the only goal.

Thanks.
I commented on the stern transom, not the bow one but the principle is the same.
I checked the bow transom, bottom edges. The two edges, panel and transom, are exactly the same length: 31.244" (31-1/4").
I agree that they don't look the same in the pictures. Photo probably. Please check.
The transoms should fit between the sides but if you install it the other way, with edges meeting, it will still fit perfectly, only your stringers will need a small adjustment.
Anyway, that is not the problem.
I see nice pictures on page 6 of this thread. The assembly looks perfect. Disregard my previous comment about assembly.
How is the rest of the hull? Is everything still as in November? Are the puzzle joints glued? Something moved.
Things may have moved during the winter? Did your strongbacks (the jig) move?
Can we have pictures of the whole thing? Sides?

There is a small twist in the bottom panel close to the bow but it went together last year, why not now?

BTW, there is not need to think about the transom angles. The angles are set by the hull panels, there is no need to measure anything.

I looked again and again.
Question: was the hull completed assembled, all the panels and the two transoms, stitched or screwed? Or was the rear transom installed but not the bow transom?
Your rear transom looks perfect but it can look that way with a small twist towards the bow.
What about the pictures showing a panel overlap? Is that at the keel? Close to the bow? Why no stitches?
I see the little blocks but stitches give you flexibility, not the blocks.
If there is a very very small misalignment at the stern, it may produces what we see. It can only happen if the bow transom is left out, open. Once the rear transom is glued, the panels don't move any more and we are stuck.
It looks like the bottom panels try to slide over each other, that is not correct but let's see a picture from the bow without the tarp please.

We'll get it fixed but let's try to understand first.

Good morning kind gents,
I should not have assumed that the cnc cuts were accurate, or should I. I paid for the cnc cuts because I was not confident in my skills to accurately cut expensive panels of plywood.
Here are the measurements with photos. Please notice the two pictures on the drawings one measurement is 20 1/2 and another 22 1/8 I sure appreciate all the help and the time.

Hi Jacques,
The picture with the overlap is the keel near the bow. I took out the stitches there when we tried to get the overlap out. The panels are glued at the puzzle joints. The side panels and hull panels are stitched with yellow zip ties. We glued in the stern transom and then tried to install the bow transom and could not get it to fit. I cannot find any information stating that they are to go in at the same time.
I will send photos of the entire boat without the cover. Thank you for helping me.
Naylene

Jacques.
You mentioned the stringers. Since the stations in the build are not permanent, I did not install stringers. Should I?
Thank you,
Naylene

I won't answer for JM, but Naylene and I spoke offline.

Here is what I would try.

Unscrew the bow transom from the star side hull panel.

Make some holes in the bottom hull panels and bow transom on 4" centers from the inside edge/hull veee and try to zip the bottom hull panels to the transom (edited)...Make the zip seams about 1" apart, so very open.

Take a picture and show us what it looks like or does. If you encounter massive torque or bending of the hull bottom panels from the point of attachment of the stern panel, let us know.

Do nothing with the sides for now and don't worry about them.

About your repair of the plywood question good news. There is almost nothing in this style of construction that can not be fixed. When you get to the point of glassing you can cut out that little bit of wood and fill with a new piece or just fill the gap with wood glue/epoxy. There will be lots of glass on both sides in that area and that will give the needed strength.
Do not let this make you nuts. You have help here and will get through this

Hi Dan
I'm about to send pictures of the entire hull, measurements, stitches etc.
After that we will try stitching the hull panels to the bow transom.

Pictures

More Pictures

Even More Pictures

LaChefels wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:34 pm Jacques.
You mentioned the stringers. Since the stations in the build are not permanent, I did not install stringers. Should I?
Thank you,
Naylene

No, the stringers do not matter at this point. They will support the bottom panels while you stitch and build the taped seams. Nothing should be fastened to the stringers.

I think because you did the stern transom so perfectly; it has created both a false expectation of perfect joinery and perhaps some difficulty for joinery.

The science of these seams is they must be open for epoxy putty about 1/8" minimum and about 3/8" maximum. After gaps are larger than 3/8", the putties do not 'stay home' and will sag out. There are strategies for dealing with this...but first, stitch the way I said and send up a picture.

It is possible you saw me post something about laminated timber seams; those are 1mm seams. These are larger. If the stern seams are a bit tight; you may need to make the hull vee a bit more open with the oscillating tool I recommended.

like Fuzz said and I said over the phone; easy to remedy now and I actually think things will work fine and your expectations for perfect seams is a bit too much..

You may need to cut off those cleats as well if they are epoxied. They will make it impossible to properly fillet and tab the hull to transom intersection.

Thank you for the pictures.
The dimensions of the kit are correct. I see what looks like 1/8" difference, that could be due to the plywood expanding and contracting, it could be the way one holds the measuring tape but it is not a dimension problem. Most of my designs are built with 1/2" gaps and that is perfectly fine. It is stronger than a tight fit.
I think the problem is misaligned panels but as Fuzz says, it's no big deal.
The first thing I would do is getting rid of that overlap at the keel.
Panels should never push against each other, we want a gap there.
I can't repeat this enough: we need a gap. For the keel overlap, I would run a jig saw through it, shave a little bit of that edge.
Once the panels are free to move, once there is a sufficient gap, it will be easy to pull all that together.
If you can, get rid of those little blocks, use stitches.
Please do not let anybody tell you that you need a tight fit. Thousands of my designs were built that way but almost each time we have problems, it is due to panels pushing against each other. Those are not wooden boats but composite boats with a plywood core. The strength comes from the fiberglass.
In your case, it was probably too tight somewhere and something had to give, the plywood in this case.

I am not certain about one thing. Was, at some point, the whole hull stitched together with the two transoms in place?

jacquesmm wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 5:48 pm I am not certain about one thing. Was, at some point, the whole hull stitched together with the two transoms in place?

the sides and bottom were stitched, but not the bow transom per our phone call

If the panels are too tight on the other end; this would drive things apart on the bow, but I think she can get it to work.

Working to perfection at this part of the build is always some trouble...

The whole hull, transoms included, should have been assembled before starting with epoxy. Side and bottom panels stitched LOOSE and transoms either stitched or fastened with screws driven loose, not tight.

This is still very easy to fix but all through the process, keep in mind that we want gaps and that the panels should be somewhat free to find their place.
It looks like you will need some straps to pull the sides and bottom together, that's fine. Do not worry about getting the panels flush with the the transom. I see one side that sticks out further than the bottom. That's because it is either misaligned or because too much pressure pushes it out. Once you get the panels loose where you can, it will get closer. Right now, that panel is pushed somewhere, I guess in the middle. You will trim what sticks out behind the bow transom later, don't trim right now, Release the pressure on the panels first.

You may have helpers that will say that you need a tight fit. Good wooden boat builders want a tight fit, we don't. Don't push the panels, it will create more problems.
Once you have nice fair panels, trim the bow transom to fit between the hull panels. trim to leave a gap.

Do not be afraid of gaps. And I mean big gaps. As long as you can cover the back side of the gap with packing tape to hold the glue in place you can fill the gap. We all hope to do things so huge gaps do not happen but if they do it is not the end of the world. The worst part is filling big gaps tales lots of epoxy glue so it drives the build cost up. But in the end epoxy glue is one of the least expensive things in boat building.
Sounds like JM and Dan will help get you over this little hurdle

Fuzz wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:54 pm Do not be afraid of gaps. And I mean big gaps. As long as you can cover the back side of the gap with packing tape to hold the glue in place you can fill the gap. We all hope to do things so huge gaps do not happen but if they do it is not the end of the world. The worst part is filling big gaps tales lots of epoxy glue so it drives the build cost up. But in the end epoxy glue is one of the least expensive things in boat building.
Sounds like JM and Dan will help get you over this little hurdle

Don't run away Fuzz. Your wisdom is helpful and I am not always first to answer.

I don't plan on going anywhere but I know too many cooks can spoil the soup too Not having this boat plans nor having built one like it I am not sure how much I can offer. With JM's wisdom and you speaking with her on phone I think things will all work out. I know we all want every build to be a success and try to make it so.

I am grateful for the village.
Tomorrow we will reduce the overlap and hang the bow transom from the hull panels.
I was never able to install the bow transom before any glueing. I'm still working on the bow transom. I was under the impression that it was ok to glue in the stern transom. Perhaps I was wrong.
You all have given me hope that I am not in tooo far over my little grey head.
Thank you, thank you.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:07 pm I don't plan on going anywhere but I know too many cooks can spoil the soup too Not having this boat plans nor having built one like it I am not sure how much I can offer. With JM's wisdom and you speaking with her on phone I think things will all work out. I know we all want every build to be a success and try to make it so.

I've seen Naylene cookin with Guy Fieri, so she's the chef here. I awful badly wanted to try the quail at the diner she ran, but it is 3 hours of extra driving, so we might not make it there. Sorry if I am giving away the fame Naylene.

Fuzz said things perfectly at the end of his post. All of us have had our moments of frustration and we all like to help each other succeed.

LaChefels wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:17 pm I am grateful for the village.
Tomorrow we will reduce the overlap and hang the bow transom from the hull panels.
I was never able to install the bow transom before any glueing. I'm still working on the bow transom. I was under the impression that it was ok to glue in the stern transom. Perhaps I was wrong.
You all have given me hope that I am not in tooo far over my little grey head.
Thank you, thank you.

You can leave the overlap temporarily. Just make sure things are loose enough. Cut nothing at first.

Please I am not trying to be "that guy" here.
This is a perfect example of where posting pictures and asking questions more often might save builders a lot of heart burn. I know it takes time to take pictures and post but if only one out of ten posts show a problem I am pretty sure the builder will be ahead. I have learned a lot of this by making mistakes, some of them have been really expensive.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:10 pm Please I am not trying to be "that guy" here.
This is a perfect example of where posting pictures and asking questions more often might save builders a lot of heart burn. I know it takes time to take pictures and post but if only one out of ten posts show a problem I am pretty sure the builder will be ahead. I have learned a lot of this by making mistakes, some of them have been really expensive.

Yeah, lotsa pictures can really help for sure.

Contributors have a better chance to offer solid feedback.

Like it or not; you are a wise owl about boats man.

From the picture, it looks like you can line up the bow transom with the sides and later, you will trim the edge of the bottom that sticks out .
Don't be shy about trimming that transom to fit in between and as Fallguy says, try to avoid the little wooden blocks. Stitch where possible, use something to support the transom while the resin cures.
As always, when you line up those parts, look for fairness first. Get something to support the weight of the transom. You will probably use straps but don't get them too tight. Do not create a flat spot in the sides.

The bow is finally hanging and setting in. We went with Fallguys advice and added stitches to the bow transom and hull panels.

The question now…
Where does the bottom of the hull
Panel need to be in relation to the outside edge of the bow transom?

See picture attached

It should be closer. I like the size of the gap where the wedges are.
The transom goes between the hull panels but if not, it does not matter much.

If you trim the sides, you will be able to use stitches there too.

It begins to look good, you are close.

Ideally, the bow transom hangs directly under the hull panels, but it is not vital.

Next thing is to stitch the rest of it same way. Make all the holes where they 'should' be. All your dimensions are pretty good.

If you have trouble, add holes and zips and use them a bit to help each other. Two inches apart if needed. Use a plier to pull them. I like a needle nose and sometimes even turn the free end around the pliers for more torque. You may break a couple; that's okay.

you may need to lift the transom panel up with something like a floor jack to tighten them, but get everything zipped first and then see how it looks

A wider gap at the bottom side panels is likely. Don't worry. Get it as good as you can and take a picture for us.

ps...I think you are in better shape than you realize. Might need Dad's help to pull the zips tight.

Maybe a picture showing more of the hull. One from the bow but showing all or mast of the bottom. And maybe one from the side same thing.

I'll second Fallguy's last post as well as Fuzz's pictures. It does look like it's getting close to me. I'd keep on with the zip ties and wedges. Have faith

Dougster

Thank you so much for for the great advice and coming to the rescue when things we’re looking dire. We made great progress today. The bow transom is glued in and we enclosed 3 sides of the build shelter. The oscillating tool is a great addition to my tool collection.

Once it is all glued; you will want to let it cure a couple days and then you can radius all the sharp corners to about 3/8" radiuses before glasswork.

Looks good.

Did you have to cut any plywood?

I bet you are one happy boat builder this evening
I know I and many others are happy for you. And as Dan said it looks good.

Excellent, it looks good.

Good morning,
Sorry it's been awhile, life, ranching, drought, well issues ect.,ect.
Back at it this weekend. My dear helper and I have glued the hull panels and one side of the side panels to the hull panels. We are about to glue the other side panels to the hull panels and sanding the hull panel seam this AM.
My plan is to epoxy the 2 1/2'" fiberglass tape down the hull panel seam tomorrow. The lamination schedule says to overlap 1/2" offset with 2 layers. After we put on one layer, do I have to wait untill that layer drys to apply second layer? I'd like to get both done before help leaves to go back to real job.
I'll send pictures after 10am when the temperature outside gets too hot for epoxy .
Hope ya'll are are well and cool

No need to wait. In fact, it's much better not too and called working "wet on wet". Better bond.

Dougster

No waiting! You do need radiuses for the tape to make the bend. Your last pictures do not show radius prep, thus the mention.

Here’s some photos
We’re sanding radiuses on side panels tomorrow along with the lumpy seam on the hull. Then we will put fiberglass tape on the hull.

The last sentence maybe confusing—fiberglass tape on the seam joining the hull panels

So, those seams are too rough to glass. I recommend you find a tool that can help you fill them one time after sanding.

I use a small plastic tool from Amazon $8.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B017Z70H ... asin_title

The radius you create needs to be about 3/8", but not so much you damage the glue joint, although it can happen. You may feel compelled to repair the seam after sanding if there are dips or holes; you can do that same day as tape if you are handy enough with making the radius nice. After applying the filler, take a 4" trowel and scrap away any humps on the hull of excess filler on each side.

Then, precoat the seam with epoxy. Precoating is done because plywood left in the sun can drysuck the resin from the tape. Wait about 30 minutes after precoating. The resin will be gelling.

Taping in the sun is really hard because the epoxy will kick off on you. I see you are in the shade; pick cooler time of day to do the epoxy work.

If you plan to wet the tape on the boat; prewet over the already wetted hull edges with a 4"-6" roller real fast and then unroll the tape. Your friend can anchor the tape while you place it. Make all your tapes a hair long..you can trim them later.

Biax tapes will not easily wet from the top, so wetting the boat or plastic on a table first, is essential.

I almost always wet on a table on plastic and roll tapes onto a cardboard tube and then back onto the boat. But not dealing with 90 degree temps.

Tape wetout.... 12 oz biax tapes are 12 oz per yard fabric and 9 pieces 36" long is a yard and would use 12 oz resin to wet...or a little over 1 ounce per 3 feet, with roller loss, call it 1.5 oz per 3' of tape...so I'd mix resin at 1/2 oz per foot, plus 4 oz for the roller

Mix the resin in a one gallon container or after mixing move it to one immediately. A wide shallow pan is also okay. You do NOT want the resin in a high small cylinder.

Honestly, I think you ought to slow down some. Aim for getting the edges looking good and cutting your tapes. After the edges are nice, you can sand them a time and precoat the boat. Let it cure, sand it all with 60 grit a bit and then dryfit tapes.

As a rookie, you need to start slow, so star on the shorter sides as well.

A db1200 tape 24' long is about a yard of fabric and will use about 12 oz of epoxy to wetout. It is a bit much for an amateur to start learning in Texas heat, so please take my advice and do the short ends first.

Hi Dan,
We’ve been starting work at 6:15 am and finishing by 9:00 before temps hit 85.
Tomorrow we will sand the lumpy parts. I just ordered the tool you recommended. Thank you.
Do you have any pictures of a proper looking sanded radius you can share?
How,s your house in Corpus coming along?

I would not agonize over the exact shape and size of that radius.
The putty is just part of the sandwich core, the strength comes the tape and later, from the wide fabric overlaps. As long as there is no air in the seam, you will be fine.
The main point to focus on is to avoid air bubbles. Even a very experienced laminator will not be able to bend 12 oz. biaxial over a radius smaller than 3/8. For that reason, I often specify 1/2" but larger is fine.
Wet on wet is always stronger and faster but there is another side to this coin: an excessively thick stack will get too hot and will create air bubbles. You would have to grind and do it again. Two layers of 12 oz. at a time will be perfect, 3 layers is something to watch but not difficult with a good bubbler breaker roller. More than 3 is not recommended.

Try to get that chine seam fair, almost straight. Not for structural strength but for aesthetics. Most of that line will be in the water or hidden by the booth line but a wavy chine edge is not pretty. Check with a batten or, if you use that tool, run it along a guide, a long batten.

LaChefels wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:26 pm Hi Dan,
We’ve been starting work at 6:15 am and finishing by 9:00 before temps hit 85.
Tomorrow we will sand the lumpy parts. I just ordered the tool you recommended. Thank you.
Do you have any pictures of a proper looking sanded radius you can share?
How,s your house in Corpus coming along?

I took a picture. This radius is a little tighter than 3/8". I have gotten to be an expert. Anything this sharp will be trouble for you. The human thumb is a good gauge.

Jacques is correct about perfection; perfection can be the enemy of the good as you know in grilling. Anything perfect is overcooked usually.

Glad to hear you are working a cooler time. When I sand, I sand a bisecting flat of about 5/16", then I roll over the sharps. Bisecting means splitting the angles. I use 40-60 grit on a Festool Rts400 for this kind of work. Start by sanding the flat at 1/4" and see how it goes..

The architect is sending our draft drawings to structural engineering this week and the next few weeks we will be rearranging the bathroom and specifying lighting and wiring, etc.

Once the drawings are done, we will submit to HOA for approval and get two bids. Then hopefully start building in August/September if all goes well. I have so much work to do; it is easy to get overwhelmed, so focused on the boat for now.

Also, I made a homemade sanding tool for this type of work and fairing

I hotglued a board to a piece of 1.5" pvc, then ripped the pvc in half on the table saw. Then ripped that in half.

Then glued sa velcro to the inside. It holds a piece of hook and loop paper nice. Comes in even more handy when final fairing outside corners. Gotta be a little careful doing paper changes to not rip out the glued on velcro, but this tool has probably 200 shop hours, so I share.

Thanks Jacques sure appreciate the help.
Thanks Dan for the picture and info.
Glad you’re making progress on the house plans.

Also, primary bonding is always ideal, but not practical for the beginner. It is better to stop and secondary bond than risk the work kicking before you finish. Keep epoxy at 72F, yes, in the house.

Do not begin if you feel like you're gonna lose the batch.

If epoxy starts to kick on you you must be ready to end quick.

This does not mean you can't work green on green. For example, let's say you wetout one tape at 7am and finish at 7:45 and have some epoxy left in the pail. You can start a new batch and new tape, but in Texas, your first batch leftover is almost useless and should not be used for anything that cannot be finished in 5-10 minutes. Avoid mixing on the prior batch as well; it will exo and ruin the next batch. I do try, now and then to reuse my mixing pail, but only if it is just residue on the edges.

I always mark time on any serious work. Meaning I know when I mix and how long I have to work. For your first effort, mark time on a short tape and learn how well you do against the gel time to compare to the full tape and learn the workpace.

Normally, I do not go on and on, but people in Florida and the south have special situations in not climate controlled areas that make laminating harder for amateurs. These early lessons and warnings are meant to help you do full lamination.

A short tape on the bow or stern should take you about 3 minutes to prep and stir resin, two minutes to roll the subsrrate with epoxy, one minute to roll the tape and 5 minutes to top roll and final wetout..., so those tapes should take a good laminator no more than 15 minutes each start to finish...for example

Consider the full pieces of glass...they need to be done in under an hour...unless you have 2 hour tropical epoxy.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I always roll fabric off a tube unless it is 10 oz or less woven. So, it might be good practice for you to do biax tapes on a roll and learn how to roll and unroll them..

Let me know if you are using woven tapes only, those could be wetted tops down.

Hey Dan great to hear you have an architech started on the house in TX, I designed and went through the architech selecting a primary builder and sub contractors and I will tell you not every step of the way was pleasant. The primary contracrtor should be able to get most of the permits for you as I recall, I only had to get the water and sewage ones. You know the stinky ones. But TX may be different and you or the Architech may have to get the permits. It never goes as fast as you want it to go.

The number of contractor choices has me concerned. Only 2? My choice was 4 and if your architchitech canot not provide that many I would ask why. I guarantee the two will be the highest priced but may not be the best.

Some of the things to watch for raising the wall outlets to 18" istead of what ever they consider they standard. My electrion had them had them at 10" and I made him raise them to 18". 18" is a great height for not having to bend down to far yet can be covered by furniture. Also make sure that you have three way switches where you need them, I am still ticked off that I missed that he did not put a 3-way from the entryway to the masterbath One of the outdoor faucets froze the first year they installed it.

The other thing is the number of set of plans you will need. I needed 6-8 me, contractor, framer, plumber, electrician, permit office, water and sewet. Some may need two. These will cost up to $200, they cost me $125 20 years ago. Once you start talking to a contrator he will let you know how many sets of plans he needs.

Now that your moving down to hurricane country your need to be prpared. Heavy bracketing at all the joints, etc, some costs may be d9uble over Minnisoto costs.

Well post some pics as you start the new house.

If I you have any questions or I can help, I have been through this a couple of times.

Tom



Tom

Good morning,
I got one side sanded this morning making the radius. In some spots the thickened epoxy doesn’t fill the radius completely. Should I go back and wet that area with epoxy and fill in with thickened epoxy and use the tool you recommended as soon as it arrives? Or have I really screwed up?

Tool or not, you can't have voids in there, Fill it with putty please.

Thank you Jacques,
That’s what I thought

LaChefels wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:54 am Good morning,
I got one side sanded this morning making the radius. In some spots the thickened epoxy doesn’t fill the radius completely. Should I go back and wet that area with epoxy and fill in with thickened epoxy and use the tool you recommended as soon as it arrives? Or have I really screwed up?

Nope. It is perfectly as I expected. Void needs fill.

Gotta clean it well with compressed air a/o acetone and fill it some more with something like the tool I showed you or any. Do not wet it first with epoxy. Thickened won't stick well. Just mix up the filler thick enough so that when you trowel it to a pile on the board; it doesn't collapse in like 5 seconds.

Fillers also get troweled onto a board and laid flat. Do not pastry bag in that heat. Make small batches. Get a gram scale and work out a putty formula for your epoxy ans filler. The filler must not sag out, so fairly thick, but homogenous. Thickened epoxy gets thinner as worked, so pay attention to this fact and another reason to small batch.

Here is something similar, but this is final fairing. This is not a great video, but may help. And I do not show cleanup, but you take a 3-4" trowel and clean the flat sides..

https://youtu.be/o74PwqLduus

After you gain some experience; these fills can be done and then you can tape right over them green on green or actually, wet on wet..

Got it. I’m on it tomorrow.

Finally
I got the seams right, I think. I’ll send pics tomorrow. So now fiberglassing seams. How do I terminate the ends of the 2 1/2” cloth at junctures? Do I cut flush.? Blend over like wrapping a package.?
I’m going to start on the stern transom.
Hope y’all are well. Texas has been brutal this summer.

LaChefels wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:26 pm Finally
I got the seams right, I think. I’ll send pics tomorrow. So now fiberglassing seams. How do I terminate the ends of the 2 1/2” cloth at junctures? Do I cut flush.? Blend over like wrapping a package.?
I’m going to start on the stern transom.
Hope y’all are well. Texas has been brutal this summer.

It depends.

You really don't want to build hook into the hull bottom in any boat.

You also don't want to butt tapes to each other.

So, you have to plan how to do minimal overlaps sometimes.

I’m looking for pictures on the forum I haven’t found any. I’m probably not using the right terminology. I’ll keep looking

I understand what you mean.

The easiest thing to do is to overlap all of them fully. If you have a massive hump; you can always grind it flatter with a sander and 40 grit if you are unsure.

Tapes are always staggered.

Here is a finger sketch of a transom. The orange tapes would be laid and then green. The ends terminate at the long edges. The goal is for all edges to get two layers of tape minimum. On the corners, you may have four layers of tapes. After it is all done, you can flatten these a bit with a sander, but not too far down.

Eventually, a workboat grade finish is light fill of this seam. A high grade of finish is filling the entire transom so these tape lines vanish.

Here is a picture showing a high finish. The tape seams are all face filled across the entire surface. You can see two layers of tapes have been filled with fairing compound. Excess overlaps here were ground flatter with the sander to reduce fills and the entire face area inside was filled with compound. If you have a high hump on the corners here; it creates the need for even more fairing..

...to be clear, all I did was overlapped everything to the ends on each run and then ground the excess off with 40 grit being careful to not go through all four layers..

And this is a progress pic, not the final before paint. That would have a pink tone.

And an xtra pro tip. Avoid using red sharpies. They bleed thru a lot.

Here is a workboat finish. All I did was a single pass of fairing compound to eliminate the razor sharp edge. Look close and you can see the tapes. So, no grinding is required, well, sorry, just one pass with 40 grit before, one fill, and then one pass with 60 grit before paint. Look close and you can see a ridge of compound and ridges of triaxial glass.

That looks great. Thank you for the photos. I will go with a workboat finish as well. What I .don’t understand is how to deal with a corner in which transom sides join hull panel and side panel. That corner will have 6 layers and will stick up oddly. Does it get sanded down to 2 layers? My gut says at a three way corner bunching is very bad as is breaking the fibers of the glass. How do you fold the ends over neatly-cutting so they lay flat?

Well, so often what happens is the outside corners fail to get coverage.

If you want to, you can cut 45s strategically, or you can dart corners. If the outside corners fail; you can mud them up with milled fiber or just patch on a tangent to the corner with a small piece and grind off the edges.

I did build up the transom corners quite a lot because I had 4 overlaps each side and wrapped, so for that I had to get creative and tried to avoid making massive humps to grind away.

Thanks Dan.
Once I get the seams finished, do I need to quickly get the big cloth on and done, or can some time pass until I have help here?

LaChefels wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:44 pm Thanks Dan.
Once I get the seams finished, do I need to quickly get the big cloth on and done, or can some time pass until I have help here?

The sun is the only enemy. Anytime you wait awhile; epoxy can degrade. Cover it, and sand it with 60 grit because it will alsobe secondary bonds. But boat builders do that all the time.

And yes, you want help doing the full glasswork.

Also, before you glass, put pictures up and we can check a few things; mainly radiuses must be done, but can also discuss glass layout, etc.

I’m going to start fiberglassing on the stern transom Saturday. The morning temps will be in the low 70’s. My plan is to mark off the overlap with a straight edge, wet the wood, then wet the tape in a trough and roll on a paper towel roll for easy unrolling. Then roll out with the roller that pushes out air.
Am I missing any steps? Any advice? I’m nervous about this step.

I will send pics tomorrow afternoon. I have to work on a deer feeder in the morning.

LaChefels wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:36 pm I’m going to start fiberglassing on the stern transom Saturday. The morning temps will be in the low 70’s. My plan is to mark off the overlap with a straight edge, wet the wood, then wet the tape in a trough and roll on a paper towel roll for easy unrolling. Then roll out with the roller that pushes out air.
Am I missing any steps? Any advice? I’m nervous about this step.

I will send pics tomorrow afternoon. I have to work on a deer feeder in the morning.

Paper towel roll is too weak. Wet tapes get heavy.

I prefer to wet the tapes on a plastic piece on a table. The trough will be pretty slow. I have done trough wetting, but honestly, it sucks.

What I do is get an 8' plywood or table and lay plastic on it. Lay the tapes out to fit, say 3x 7' overlaps for 23' tapes or so. Then pull back the top two layers and pour mixed epoxy onto the tape section, quickly roll it with a 4-6" wide roller. I like using my bubble buster. All surfaces must be wetted. Then pour another strip of epoxy and run your bubble buster over it fast and lay the next part of the tape down. Then roll it again. Then add more epoxy. After wetting all the tape to the top, flip the piece over and hit any dry spots. Sometimes, I like to even pour a strip of mixed resins on the table first. You can trough, but lots of time is lost trying to roll it. For the long tapes on the table, once wetted, I do roll tjem onto a 3" heavy cardboard tube. I prefer to keep any mat tapes mat down, but okay if not. They roll faster this way and less fighting with it, but try the way that feels right.

Another thing about the trough...after an hour of work, the trough gets gooey as first resins kick. So a trough is okay for anything you can finish in an hour. I used troughs for the beam socket work here. One piece per day, like 3 rounds around the beams on string, Calvin helped me; the parts were 50" wide and 3 rounds or about 90" long or so.. the troughs are also really easy to get resins all over you...like leaning over the sink eh!

My tapes are 34' long for main hulls, and a couple days, I did 200' of tape on plastic on table. And I had to chuck plastic for gooey resins.

Start on short tapes first.

Ask me anything. I'd done a LOT of tape wetting!

Weigh the tapes or calculate the weight of the tapes. For an amateur use 110-120% of the resin weight.

Always tries to have a few jobs on standby for epoxy. It is pricey! Never do the standby work until the rest is DONE!

For an 8' tape 4" wide from db1208, the calc is 19 oz per yard or so. So, 8'x1/3' is 8/3 sqft or 8/27 sqyd or 0.3 sqyd. Or about 6 oz resin at 100% or 7oz at 110 or 8 at 120%.

You'll do fine, start on short pieces, try to consider table wetting on poly. I always tape the poly down on the table edges. Sometimes, you can flip the poly, say a 3' wide piece over and use it to wetout and the close up the old goo that's kickin.

There is more than one way to skin a cat!

My boat is 22' long and I wet out at least 1000' of 6" x 12 oz biax glass tape in my build. I wet out all of it, by myself, using only hard foam rollers - hundreds of them!
I'll stand my glassing up against anyones!



Here's what I did:
1) measure the length of tape required for the job. Cut the correct length of tape and roll it up.
2) wet out the area to be taped and let it kick - then when its just tacky roll fresh epoxy onto 3 or 4 feet.
3) roll out the glass tape to within the last 3 or 4 inches of the freshly wet area, then wet out the tape until it looks clear.
4) repeat (3) until the jobs done!

I used slow hardener because I worked in temps around 80-90oF, but even so I had time to mix the epoxy in batches as required - learnt early in the build.

I used the exact same method for my large glassing runs, although I did engage an assistant (wife) to follow up on the wetting out and chasing air bubbles!
Said assistant also came in handy for roll and tip painting - tipping my rolled on paint!

BarraMan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:50 am There is more than one way to skin a cat!

My boat is 22' long and I wet out at least 1000' of 6" x 12 oz biax glass tape in my build. I wet out all of it, by myself, using only hard foam rollers - hundreds of them!
I'll stand my glassing up against anyones!



Here's what I did:
1) measure the length of tape required for the job. Cut the correct length of tape and roll it up.
2) wet out the area to be taped and let it kick - then when its just tacky roll fresh epoxy onto 3 or 4 feet.
3) roll out the glass tape to within the last 3 or 4 inches of the freshly wet area, then wet out the tape until it looks clear.
4) repeat (3) until the jobs done!

I used slow hardener because I worked in temps around 80-90oF, but even so I had time to mix the epoxy in batches as required - learnt early in the build.

I used the exact same method for my large glassing runs, although I did engage an assistant (wife) to follow up on the wetting out and chasing air bubbles!
Said assistant also came in handy for roll and tip painting - tipping my rolled on paint!

This method can also work, but many of my seams were fully vertical and this makes that method a drippy mess.

For her, she could pull this off. The main thing is to get the tapes fully wetted before gel time; otherwise they will not wetout and be white and the tape is then junk in the white area.

Thank you very much.
Here are my radiuses.

Pretty easy to tell if you have enough radius for the glass. Lay it over the spot dry. If it makes the bend pretty cleanly you are good to go. If it wants to stand up you need more curve.

Thank you Fuzz. Ive been wondering if it would tell you.

This method can also work, but many of my seams were fully vertical and this makes that method a drippy mess.

That doesn't equate with my experience!

BarraMan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:55 pm

This method can also work, but many of my seams were fully vertical and this makes that method a drippy mess.

That doesn't equate with my experience!

Well, try doing 200 feet on a vertical and get back to me!

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:49 pm

BarraMan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:55 pm

This method can also work, but many of my seams were fully vertical and this makes that method a drippy mess.

That doesn't equate with my experience!

Well, try doing 200 feet on a vertical and get back to me!

Nah, still not buying it! 200' = 2' x 100 times! (unless of course you have a really tall cabin on your boat! )

BarraMan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:34 pm

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:49 pm

BarraMan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:55 pm
That doesn't equate with my experience!

Well, try doing 200 feet on a vertical and get back to me!

Nah, still not buying it! 200' = 2' x 100 times! (unless of course you have a really tall cabin on your boat! )

3 layers of 34' tapes each side one day; note the drips!

Ps...takes about 220 ounces of resin or almost 2 full gallons

3 layers of 34' tapes each side one day; note the drips!

Don't get me wrong, I am in total awe of your build, but ............... maybe you are just messy!

BarraMan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:45 pm

3 layers of 34' tapes each side one day; note the drips!

Don't get me wrong, I am in total awe of your build, but ............... maybe you are just messy!

Nah. This was the first hull. Second one I used peelply.

You try putting two gallons of epoxy on a vertical wall!

So I can’t see any air pockets.
How does it look otherwise ?

Looks good. Might be a little open on the ends, but that'll get sanded off. Keep sanding until the loose stuff is gone. No reason to keep air pockets.

So I put on 2 layers of 6” fiberglass on the stern transom seams. I have a couple of places where I didn’t get the air out and or get good adhesion. I know this must be redone.
My question is do
I have to sand off all of the fiberglass or just the area that didn’t adhere well?

LaChefels wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:19 pm So I put on 2 layers of 6” fiberglass on the stern transom seams. I have a couple of places where I didn’t get the air out and or get good adhesion. I know this must be redone.
My question is do
I have to sand off all of the fiberglass or just the area that didn’t adhere well?

Pictures?

Generally, remove adhesion failures and keep the rest.

Pictures and a video coming

I hate to say this but you have a bit of a problem in the chine area. Either you do not have a large enough radius at the chine or the bottom protruded past the bottom. You need to grind off the glass and redo things in that area. not the end of the world and you are not the first one to have this problem

Yeah. That is a redo.

David has explained it well. I'll add one more possibility.

But first, to reiterate Fuzz, you cannot get glass to create a fair edge. If the top is overhanging the side; the glass will void. If the radius is too sharp; the glass will work to create the radius.

Making sure overhangs are non-existent is step one, Making sure radiuses are sufficient is step two. A 3/8" radius is the minimum for an amateur. A pro laminator can make a 1/4" work.

See my finger sketches for examples of the first two.

A third possibility is improper consolidation.

There are a few ways to create a bubble on tabbing seams during consolidation.

All fin roller work needs to be away from the corner for outside corners. So, if you rolled the top edge toward you or sideways; and the side edge up; you will create that void on a perfectly designed substrate. The same thing can happen on an inside corner if you pull the fin roller away from the joint. Easy to go back and forth, but roller in and up is proper. For outside corner, roller out and up only.

So, all fin roller work must be in toward inside corners, and out on outside corners. This is a amateur error and good that is happened now before you did the whole boat this way.

What is a 3/8" radius? If you mark out a 3/4" hole with a large x, take a drill bit and cut it, then leave just the line and cut off the thing twice; you'd have a radius gauge.

Hopefully my fairing tool didn't mess you up. You also cannot leave any humps from the fairing tool edge work or this could be a 4th cause.

Try to understand the cause of the error first. Grind that off with a sander and 40 grit paper.

For a pro tip. If you are laminating and find an area that is really hard to get the glass to lay down, like a 3 plane corner. Keep a little bit of peelply around, for the GT23, maybe like 3-5 yards. Peelply leaves you a bit blind to microbubbles, but you can lay masking tape over a small piece of it all the way to something dry and get the corner to cooperate.

Top drawing is a non-fair surface overhang; glass cannot fix it. Lower drawing is poor radius, glass will create its own radius without peelply or even with it on a too sharp corner.

Thanks guys. I figured lots of sanding was in my future. Apply and learn. It's part of the process.
I'll keep you posted. Hope all of you are doing well.
Dan, did you take the boat out?

One more question,
Is a random orbital sander my best bet for removing these 2 layers of fiberglass or is a belt sander a better choice? I realize belt sanders can remove a bunch of material .

I crawled under and around the boat and did 5 coats of paint on each hull.

Waiting for insurance..

Belt sanders are really almost never used in boat building. A small handheld mini belt sander can work. I really am not a fan of ros. I use festool rts400.

You will be doing quite a bit of sanding so you need some tools and sanding papers. You'll need to decide.

A ros tends to throw fiberglass crap all over. The rts has suction and is less aggressive and I used it for a lot
Of fairing work because I had good control over what it was removing.

You'll need a good sander. ROS can work, but I don't like them much..

Get a good random orbital sander and it will allow you to attach it to shop vac. Get a heavy-duty shop vac and dust gone. Brands of sanders such as Bosche and Porter-Cable work well with a vacuum. Tom

If you want to splurge the dedicated sanding vacuums that clean their own filters are pretty sweet, my shop vac would loose effectiveness as the filter clogged. Using bags in your shop vac can help a bunch too for less money.

The most used tool in my build was the shop vac. I burned an old one out and went and bought the best one I could find.

Do you have a 4.5 inch grinder? If so these https://www.amazon.com/Mercer-Industrie ... p_0_t&th=1 will really move some glass. But I warn you the are weapons of mass destruction. Go with a light touch until you see how fast they move material.

I went through 2 x vacuum cleaners and 3 x orbital sanders for my build!

Well, how are things?

Well I finally escaped captivity from the aoudads.
The radious are fixed and I started removing fiberglass. Do I need to remove every speck of the improperly applied fiberglass? I used a sanding wheel on my angle grinder very carefully.

Remember, the cleaner you work with your fiberglass lamination, the less fairing you will have in your future. That being said, if you are going to re-glass those seams then I would, at a minimum, grind out any glass that didn't get fully saturated or any air pockets. Might want to consider grinding it all off and starting with a clean slate. (I know that is easier said than done because sanding/grinding sucks!!!)

Good luck!
-Reid

What Reid said. No air pockets on hull bottom up to dwl. No air pockets bigger than say a half a dime on the sides above dwl.

If you can press on it and tell there is a void; grind it.

Hi guys.
Thank you for the advice. I’m going to keep sanding carefully to remove all of it. I’m glad it wasn’t more.

Make a 3/8" radius gauge.

Take a small piece of plywood scrap.

Make an intersecting line with 90s.

Drill a tiny hole on the intersection.

Drill a 3/4" hole. Cut with an oscillating tool and keep 1/4 of two sides of the thing. Throw the other 2 away.

Cool thank you.
Fiberglass applied wrong is mighty tough. I’m pondering getting a variable speed belt sander. Any thoughts.

Nnnoooooooo!

Big mistake.

The best tool for grinding glass is a Festool Rotex sander which can also be used for fairing and sanding paint.

The other option is a Festool RTS400 or supercedes.

Use 40 grit paper only for removal. The Festool and any papers, for that matter, lose their edge fast in glass and epoxy..lotsa paper changes are needed.

I have a couple rts400s.

All Festools are repairable, but not cheap.

I am a seasoned user of tools and would NEVER use a belt sander to do that job. Not ever.

What are you using now?

Probably nothing suitable.

Lots of rotary sanders won't keep turning and are useless, but a belt sander will ruin plywood and is considered an implement of destruction.

fallguy while the Festool is the Gold standard many boats have been built here with random orbit sanders a 6" is best but 5" is fine if that is what you have. Make sure you have a quality one. Sandpaper is readily available and cheaper than the Festool and a dust collection system works very well. While your correct to give your opinion give other options also. Tom

Also when a lot needs to be removed over a big area then the angle grinder and or belt sanders can do a nice job and like Fuzz has stated more than once, it's a delicate touch, paraphrasing. I have used both on my build and they are very handy tools to have in the tool shed. But like any tool, you need to know how to use them correctly.

Pictured is a 0-3000rpm sander/grinder. With 36 grit 3M green disks it will move glass like no random orbit sander will. With a careful touch it is a champ. But it can be a WMD if given a chance. The ZEC disk shown is a whole other level. It make the green disk seem like it is hand sanding! Either one will cure your problem but I must stress to use at your own peril

TomW1 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:41 am fallguy while the Festool is the Gold standard many boats have been built here with random orbit sanders a 6" is best but 5" is fine if that is what you have. Make sure you have a quality one. Sandpaper is readily available and cheaper than the Festool and a dust collection system works very well. While your correct to give your opinion give other options also. Tom

Most ros do not have a continual drive, so as soon as you press down; they stop.

And therein lies the rub. Most ros do not hog glass. I thought she said she had one already.

Fuzz's variable speed grinder is much better than ros and can be done lower cost.

I built my boat with 2 x A$100 Bosch 6" random orbit sanders!



I agree with Fuzz that if you really want to remove something a 3M sanding disc on an angle grinder is the way to go, but as a WoMD needs to wielded with considerable finesse!

I laid 5m2 of glass with bubbles, two layers. In the end a diamond blade on a oscillating tool and heatgun was the easiest and cleanest by far. But for that little bit a grinder will do fine. As soon as you have a solid surface just glass over the whole lot. You do need to make a bigger radius at the chine. Other thing you can do just before taping is prime the plywood with neat epoxy. Then lay a little putty over the joint, and also any imperfections, dips hollows etc. Put the glass on that straightaway. This will not only help to fill any voids but also give the glass something to sit in at the joint. It helped me a lot when I was relaying that glass.

Planning to build the GT-23. I built the FS-14 from a kit. And then the Phillip Bolger OldShoe, from plans of course, but using materials (plywood, epoxy, paint, etc) from BoatBuilderCentral. I built a small Glen-L sailboat 50 years ago at age 13. Have also built a coupla self-designed experimental boats of dubious quality.

I have some questions about the plans/methods. I see that Naylene built a GT-23 in 2020, using a strongback. And the GT-23 plans do call for using "a jig"....But then the plans
go on to describe a seemingly jigless stitch-and-glue process, where the initial hull construction is done with hull right-side-up, using the panel shapes and bow and aft transoms to provide the curves and shape of the hull. After adding the stringers and cross frames and sole and foredeck, the plans only then call for the boat to be rolled over, bottom up, and the bottom glassed....and still no mention of frames/molds/strongback. Dimensions of the stations are given, but no direct instruction to set the hull upon any molds... Is this supposed to be simply "understood"? That one of course always uses molds to shape the hull? But if this is so, then in this particular case the shapes/curves will already be largely fixed, because the plans call for the inside keel, chine, and transom seams to be built (epoxied) before the boat is rolled over upside down for the bottom work....
I am confused...
bobby

I started a new thread.

She is still working on her boat.

viewtopic.php?t=66341

So it's been a minute since I posted a thing. Lot's of frustration removing fiberglass. Finally done with that ugly mistake.
Good news is that I'm making headway. I have a helper 2 days a week.
The seams on bow and stern transoms are refiberglassed. We did the first 23' seam today.
The meranti wood is mighty dry. So, I'm putting on a layer of epoxy to fill airpockets then lightly sanding after it's cured, cleaning with acetone, rewetting then applying the fiberglass.
I'm only 5 pieces of 23' seam fiberglass till starting on the hull.
The big wet out on the hull is what concerns me.
Hope your builds are progressing faster than mine.
Naylene

So, take a picture of all your seam tapes when done.

The hull does not have to terrify you.

There is a high pressure and a low pressure way to do the job.

High pressure is roll 40% of the glass weight in resin and the roll precut glass on. Finish wetout on rest of piece before gel.

Low pressure is to roll off the precut as you go, about 18" at a time...

Prep is key to both. I use lotsa sharpie words and reference marks to make sure lengths and locations are good.

Keep at it, after awhile; you'll get the hang of it.

Making good bread is harder.

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:16 am Low pressure is to roll off the precut as you go, about 18" at a time...
Prep is key to both. I use lotsa sharpie words and reference marks to make sure lengths and locations are good.
Keep at it, after awhile; you'll get the hang of it.
Making good bread is harder.

Indeed, low pressure is the way to go!

I agonised over my BIG glassing runs too - before I undertook them. It was quite warm when I was doing that work and I was really worried that my epoxy would kick too quickly. My boat is 22', so similar dimensions to yours.
1) I pre-coated my panels the day before glassing. Blush was non-existent with the epoxy I used.
2) I marked up with a permanent marker pen where I wanted the glass to lie, then I dry fitted it and trimmed to fit the marked area.
3) Then I rolled up the glass cloth onto what we call a "pool noodle" - a foam tube. a piece of poly pipe would work as well.
4) I wet out about 3ft of area to be glassed and rolled about 2ft of the glass onto that, so I was always working with a wet edge..
5) Then I wet out another 3ft, rolled 2ft of glass cloth onto that and wet it out.
6) Repeat 4/5 until the job is done!
7) My wife followed behind me chasing any air bubbles that I may have left. She soon became an air bubble's worst enemy!

It used to take us about 3 hrs to complete a full length run of cloth on the boat!

Just do it!

Cheers
Lee

Lee's method is lower pressure. The only downside is for multiple layers; the bonding takes a couple days and becomes secondary.

But heat is the enemy here, and he said it was warm.

Given that you've had some troubles, I'd follow his method. Just be careful which way you roll on and roll off. Lotsa sharpie marks and words are your friends..