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Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:39 pm
by Jaysen
I'm not sure it's really mine...

The Mrs and I have decided that all plans to build a boat have to be put on indefinite hold. Lot's of reasons, but in the end, it is more about making sure that we are doing things together than enjoying life separately. Unbeknownst to me, the Mrs, knowing this conversation was coming, started working her network and she was able to very quickly get us in to look at a couple "maybe" boats. We both landed on a Helms 24 as the right boat for our "now".

We took the weekend to inventory and organize. After a couple hours we took a few photos to share. We have a bit of work to do, but none of it is difficult (except maybe the stuff at the masthead). Pictures aren't in chronological order (who as time for that?) but they do tell the story for us...

She sits on a finger at the public marina here in Beaufort. Water and power included. There is a 20gal white water tank, but no blackwater tank (or pump out opening) that I could find. We didn't want a tank on board and would have converted to a composting head anyway. These pics are after my first pass of rerunning deck side lines (that mess on the mast is next!).
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Mrs may have caught me day dreaming but I did get a nice picture of her coming up the companionway. In my defense she was trying out the V Berth before I laid down.
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Being a 24' hull the forward berth is a bit tight. We can both fit comfortably, but, as it currently sits, it's a tad claustrophobic. I need to consider a replacement hatch and I will be installing a couple fans. After the nap, Mrs ran up to the coffee shop and brought back some "get your butt moving" juice and cracked the whip. Mary attempted to help, but generally, a 1.5yr old boykin's idea of help requires the purchase of new lines... At least the jib sheets were already well worn out.
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Here's the short list of things we know need to get completed:
Before we do sailing:
• Service are remount the short shaft Merc 4 so the intakes are actually in the water.
• Fix the depth sounder
• Get all nav lights working... right now I have half a starboard bow light.
• Clean the sails.
• Find better location for anchor.
• Finish the PO efforts to replace jib sheets, roller furler line, and lazy jacks

No impact to sailing, but need done:
• Acquire stove
• Head accommodations
• Complete removal of the atomic 4 wiring harness.
• Sort out the house wiring and battery charging systems
• Fix/replace the wind instruments and other mast head components.
• Repair a "ding" on the cabin roof.
• Bright work (that is never done is it?)

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:12 pm
by Jeff
Congrats Jaysen!!! We look forward to getting het prepared for sailing!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:58 pm
by Fuzz
I am thinking you made the smartest move for now. You and the boss can go play right away and see how you like it before jumping in the deep end of the pool.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:38 pm
by fallguy1000
Fair winds Jaysen and Mrs.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:01 am
by Jaysen
Thanks all.

I've been going back and forth on electrical. I've been thinking of running as much duplex type runs from the breakers as possible instead of using the "ground trunk" method. The small size and wide open space makes it super easy for me to pull the duplex. Also, the duplex ensures that I have ground and V+ immediately available without having to think about it. What's our collective opinion on this?

I'm also in shock after looking at the prices of new outboards. You all with big motors ... you must have the golden hen somewhere. If I need to replace the Merc 4hp due to "too small" I'm likely to give a LOT of consideration to electric inboard with a Honda neighbor hater for longer trips. It won't cost too much more than a new 6hp XL shaft (unless I find that the box has been glassed over....).

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:47 am
by fallguy1000
Ground trunk for me.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:27 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:39 pm ...it is more about making sure that we are doing things together than enjoying life separately.
Great call, I'm in complete agreement.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:31 am
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:47 am Ground trunk for me.
How are you calculating max amp on the ground trunk? Since most of my circuits won't be dedicated "forward/aft" (ex nav and cabin lights both have fore and aft devices) I was just going to make draw for wire size something stupid like "sum of all fuses".
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:27 am
Jaysen wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:39 pm ...it is more about making sure that we are doing things together than enjoying life separately.
Great call, I'm in complete agreement.
Was never really a question. We just had hoped that we didn't need to answer it for a bit longer.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:13 pm
by Fuzz
i like to keep things real simple so its a run of duplex for everything for me. Makes it much easier to trouble shoot. And more often than not I find the ground is the problem. I am sure there are better ways but this way works for me.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:36 am
by cape man
Too cool! Given the price of used sail boats you made the right decision and a 24' will certainly give you a taste of what you are dreaming of.
Not sure what you are talking about with the wiring. I ran duplex (and triplex) everywhere and have a common ground bar with fuses for everything that didn't have an inline or internal fuse.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:07 am
by Jaysen
Thanks cape man. One “method” of wiring that seems excessively popular here is running on large ground wire to a buss bar in the bow, and on aft. Then run individual V+ lines to switch panel and a short line to ground bus. I’m not sure I like that idea as it seems messier and requires more connections. I will be adding a lot of fuses based on last nights troubleshooting of power issues.

Fuzz, I would say “great minds think alike” since I prefer the duplex idea but now that cape man agrees too, I’m not sure he wants to be stuck in a category with us! I would also add that our duplex preference is actually cheaper as the cost of wire is much lower than the cost of those dang busses. Especially when you consider the my lingers possible “not up the mast” run is 29’.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:12 am
by glossieblack
This is wonderful news Jaysen! Perfect size to discover what the two of you want on a cruising sailboat, and what you can live without. Enjoy! :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:58 am
by glossieblack
What's currently in the space under the cockpit sole where an inboard would be installed? Has there been one in there at some stage?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:05 am
by Jaysen
glossieblack wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:58 am What's currently in the space under the cockpit sole where an inboard would be installed? Has there been one in there at some stage?
The "void" (that's what I'm calling the sad place where once an Atomic 4 resided) currently houses two improperly mounted house batteries and chargers. There is also a large external fuel tank for the outboard in there. If only the blower motor was hooked up and the venting opened to vacate the petrol fumes. That massive safety issue was easily fixed by opening all the hatches and closing the vent on the fuel cap. I kind of feel like I save the boat (and maybe some people) from a bad situation by buying her.

Ideally I would put in a 48-96v electric motor connected to the existing drivetrain. I need to remove the batts and see what is still present. All I can see is the water muffler. All the raw water intakes and such are still there and easily resurrect-able. I would have room to store a neighbor hater (portable gen) and lots of fuel (25-30 gal) making it a viable solution for long distance motor cruising. Right now she has a bracket hung Merc 4 short shaft for power. That needs to be replace with something long shaft in the 6hp range. I'm open to offers on the Merc :)

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:26 am
by cape man
I’m not sure he wants to be stuck in a category with us!
I fear we have been categorized together for quite some time already... :lol: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:05 am
by glossieblack
If you go the serial hybrid electric motor-genset route, will you install the genset in the 'void', or haul it up to the deck or cockpit as required?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:30 am
by Jaysen
My preference would be in the void with remote start. My cheap skate nature would then eviscerate that plan by balking at the price and purchasing a unit that would need to moved topside to start.

Hands (as GB noticed, this is actually HONDA) makes some sweet neighbor haters that don’t hate the neighbors (very quiet) and the cost for electric start is not terrible. If I can muster that willpower to spend the extra scratch for hybrid, one of those Hondas would make it dang near perfect.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:32 pm
by Bogieman
Happy for you !! Congrats

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:08 am
by glossieblack
Jaysen wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:30 am My preference would be in the void with remote start. My cheap skate nature would then eviscerate that plan by balking at the price and purchasing a unit that would need to moved topside to start.

Hands makes some sweet neighbor haters that don’t hate the neighbors (very quiet) and the cost for electric start is not terrible. If I can muster that willpower to spend the extra scratch for hybrid, one of those Hondas would make it dang near perfect.
I've been pondering this the past few days. Then bingo. Hands = Honda courtesy spell check. Correct?

If so, I agree a Honda genset properly installed, cooled and vented in the void as part of a serial hybrid would be the ducks nuts. I hope you come to love your Helms sufficiently to invest in going this route.

Besides you've got the knowledge and skills to set up the battery-electric motor-Honda genset-systemn controller system in a way that you could take it with you to your next boat (you're young enough, there will be a next one, or two, or? ... :wink: )

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:28 am
by Jaysen
glossieblack wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:08 am I've been pondering this the past few days. Then bingo. Hands = Honda courtesy spell check. Correct?

If so, I agree a Honda genset properly installed, cooled and vented in the void as part of a serial hybrid would be the ducks nuts. I hope you come to love your Helms sufficiently to invest in going this route.

Besides you've got the knowledge and skills to set up the battery-electric motor-Honda genset-systemn controller system in a way that you could take it with you to your next boat (you're young enough, there will be a next one, or two, or? ... :wink: )
Sigh. Yes. It is supposed to be Honda. I've fixed the original.

The biggest value to the on board Honda would be that it would be recoverable cost when other sources would become available. It would also provide house power for any large draw needs with not docked (plan is to vacate the dock in 1-2yr in favor of a ball). Effectively, a 5gal Jerry can would power us for a couple days/weeks of real use depending on sun and wind.

We are 50/50 on there being a boat after this. Regretfully we aren't aging as gracefully as you and Mrs GB. The Helms (we still don't have an agreed name for her yet) is big enough for some nearshore and extended trips. We might even think about a Caribbean run out of Miami or the keys. It is small enough that there is no question about me being able to single hand her ... ever. As much as I would love a 35' hull right now, this little girls meets all the requirements while making it possible for the Mrs and I to both be on the boat. It's been hard to find anything that would allow the Mrs could be comfortable. I feel exceptionally lucky.
Bogieman wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:32 pm Happy for you !! Congrats
Thanks boogie! now you just need to get down here and we to some travel camping. You will have the draft advantage... by a lot. I'm pulling 5' now. Boooo!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:16 am
by Jeff
Wow, 5 feet really??? Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:34 am
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:16 am Wow, 5 feet really??? Jeff
4.17' per plan. I like to add a foot just to keep me out of trouble. It's not like I stuck a J30 on dry land or anything...

I also need to get a keel inspection done as there are rumors that SOME of them were extended. Based on my measurements in the hull, I may have the longer fin. The "shoal keel" hull had the fin start under the V and terminate mid "void". My keel appears to start just at the mast compression post and terminates just forward of the companion way. The narrower but longer keel was then able to be swapped with a winged keel (I can not determine from what source but I've seen photos of 2).

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:36 am
by Jeff
OK!!! Learn something everyday!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:07 pm
by narfi
good fun!
will it be a mostly weekend type thing or you plan on longer trips with it or what is the plan?
any chance of doing the great loop or is it too small for that long a stint? if its a chance, then electric propulsion might not be that great an idea.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:17 pm
by Jaysen
No interest in “loop”. All saltwater for us. And as much under wind as possible.

I can see us spending a month on board. Pick down in a harbor. Sightseeing and fishing. Really just a floating RV when you get down to it.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:41 pm
by Jaysen
Trying to identify the connectors used to disconnect the mast wiring from the hull. I think these from West Marine are the same.

Here is one that I removed from the hull (wires pulled out before I touched it :| )

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Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:36 pm
by Fuzz
You have only had it a few weeks and you already broke it :help: :roll:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:45 am
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:36 pm You have only had it a few weeks and you already broke it :help: :roll:
No no no no no. You can’t pin that on me. It was like that when I got it. Mrs agrees to that story.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:45 pm
by Jaysen
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The void. As you can see, there is no engine.

I removed a crap ton of unconnected wire. Re rigged the battery management stuff. The red blur in the upper left is a outboard fuel tank. It is sitting on the proper, factory built battery locations. Tank will be moved to a mounting location further back allowing bats to “go home”. Current battery location will then be opened up for backup gear and tool storage. Also likely to be the anchor stowage.

Before y’all say I’m slow upstairs, that whole section can be reached via the starboard lazerette. In nirvana, I’d be able to deploy and retrieve anchor entirely from the cockpit. I’ve a couple bad ideas to make that happen.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:26 pm
by Fuzz
DUDE............only because you are handy to have around sometimes, get that portable fuel tank OUT of there :!: :help:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:53 am
by Jaysen
I’d like to put a proper tank on the tank platform at the end of the void. 2 problems with that plan:
1. No way to fill/vent proper tank
2. No fuel gauge location.

The “problem” with moving it elsewhere is simply the fact that every location is just as bad. Port lazerette is directly in the cabin. Starboard opens to the void (actually where the tank is accessed from). I’ve thought about glassing a compartment in the starboard side but I wind up with either taking the whole lazerette or having the same issue since there is only one hatch.

Open to suggestions.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:17 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:45 pm In nirvana, I’d be able to deploy and retrieve anchor entirely from the cockpit. I’ve a couple bad ideas to make that happen.
I assume you're not talking about a remotely controlled electric windlass. I'm staying tuned! I occasionally will practice sailing on/off the hook on a lee shore, solo. Getting from the bow to the cockpit, quickly, is probably the most dangerous piece of the exercise. The ability to raise the anchor from the cockpit would probably make that scenario 100 times safer. Have not yet figured out how to do it with my all-chain rode.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:32 pm
by Jaysen
All chain will be tough!

Here’s what I’m thinking. Have a 20’, 3/4” line from bow cleat to cockpit hook. Cockpit end has ring. Anchor, chain and rhode stored in cockpit locker. Chain through ring, shackle to anchor (assume rhode to chain perm) toss anchor over.

Here’s where I’m stuck. Somehow I need to put a stopper on the rhode to keep it from running through the ring once desired scope is out. That will then put the point of anchor back on the bow cleat keep orientation proper. Cleat off at mid cleat and done.

Retrieve is just reverse. I assume that the bow line will come back with first shackle it encounters.

My other option I was thinking was a roller fairlead. At that point it is no different than any other remote system.

That’s my idea anyway.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:46 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:32 pm Somehow I need to put a stopper on the rode to keep it from running through the ring once desired scope is out.
There's a simple formula to determine the correct amount of rode to put out for a given anchoring scenario:

1. take the number of feet of rode you have, and
2. put it out.

;)

If you go with that formula, you can just add a shackle or something at the "end" of the scope and you're done.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:05 pm
by Jaysen
Since I need to be prepared for 60+ feet of water I'll have a couple hundred feet of nylon rhode on board. was thinking that I could use something like your solution but with a bowline on the rhode to hold a shackle like thing. I have concern about boat orientation when you start to pull anchor. Time will tell.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:10 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:05 pm I have concern about boat orientation when you start to pull anchor.
I was thinking about this too. Could be a real trick in a sea/wind. Maybe snug the ring to the bow first. Maybe the ring needs to be on a messenger line that runs between the bow to the cockpit.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:16 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:10 pm
Jaysen wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:05 pm I have concern about boat orientation when you start to pull anchor.
I was thinking about this too. Could be a real trick in a sea/wind. Maybe snug the ring to the bow first. Maybe the ring needs to be on a messenger line that runs between the bow to the cockpit.
That was what I was trying to avoid. There are a lot of running rigging already running on the limited deck space. I was hoping to use a static line to keep it entirely off the deck underway. I's also have to make sure the messenger was terminated at a "strong point" aft to allow for the inevitable time when the aft termination takes most of the load.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:38 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:16 pm
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:10 pm
Jaysen wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:05 pm I have concern about boat orientation when you start to pull anchor.
I was thinking about this too. Could be a real trick in a sea/wind. Maybe snug the ring to the bow first. Maybe the ring needs to be on a messenger line that runs between the bow to the cockpit.
That was what I was trying to avoid. There are a lot of running rigging already running on the limited deck space. I was hoping to use a static line to keep it entirely off the deck underway. I's also have to make sure the messenger was terminated at a "strong point" aft to allow for the inevitable time when the aft termination takes most of the load.
Your fairlead at the bow idea is starting to sound more attractive. With a rope rode, stored aft, you could use a jib winch as a windlass.

Did that boat have an atomic or a diesel in it? That photo of the battery, wires and fuel tank does look a bit like a "before" photo in a BoatUsa article, good on ya for making it a high priority.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:18 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:38 pm
Jaysen wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:16 pm
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:10 pm

I was thinking about this too. Could be a real trick in a sea/wind. Maybe snug the ring to the bow first. Maybe the ring needs to be on a messenger line that runs between the bow to the cockpit.
That was what I was trying to avoid. There are a lot of running rigging already running on the limited deck space. I was hoping to use a static line to keep it entirely off the deck underway. I's also have to make sure the messenger was terminated at a "strong point" aft to allow for the inevitable time when the aft termination takes most of the load.
Your fairlead at the bow idea is starting to sound more attractive. With a rope rode, stored aft, you could use a jib winch as a windlass.

Did that boat have an atomic or a diesel in it? That photo of the battery, wires and fuel tank does look a bit like a "before" photo in a BoatUsa article, good on ya for making it a high priority.
Fairlead will still required lots of "junk" on the deck and a trip forward to stow anchor. my jib chainplate prevents a proper anchor fairlead. I'd windup dragging chain over the deck then have the anchor smashing the side. A second thought to make the fairlead idea work is that I have a "retrieval line" secured aft with ring over rhode (opposite of current plan). When chain hits deck, pull chain and anchor to cockpit, release rhode from winch and stow. Requires two trips forward but can be timed better
1. insert rhode into fairlead prior to deploy (boat can be self piloting)
2. remove rhode from fairlead post retrieve (self piloting)
Not a fan of that but....

I have two stories. One is an atomic 5, the other a Perkins. I'm waiting on the title to get the original build data. My plan is to buy a custom tank from Jeff, put it on the fuel platform (still installed) and send in though the EXISTING transom gland to a new Tohatsu 6 or 8 HP XL shaft (have a 6hp that I'm going to test with before acquisition). The one good thing... there are blowers on the transom (supports orig inboard being atomic) and some power venting up front. never smells of any fuel vapor in the void (or cabin). But I will be pulling that can out this weekend.

I'm hoping to pull batts this weekend and start the clean up and replacement of rusted out "parts". If I can get that completed then we are only one motor away from a day of sailing.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:18 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:18 pm my jib chainplate prevents a proper anchor fairlead.
My C&C has a similar issue with the chainplate so I ended up running the bow roller kind of parallel to the starboard sheer instead of down the centerline. Works fine, looks a little wonky. When my nephew saw it he thought it was just poor workmanship, I had to convince him that in this specific case, it was intentional.
Jaysen wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:18 pm
a new Tohatsu 6 or 8 HP XL shaft (have a 6hp that I'm going to test with before acquisition).
That will be sweet. Lot simpler to service and care for those than an inboard anything! My last boat, 22' Leisure from England, had a 6hp Lister-Petter dsl, 70's, thumper. All the potential buyers were worried about parts etc and how well that motor would work. I always responded "First of all, it will outlast us both, and second, if it does have issues, make it a mooring anchor and put a Honda outboard on it". Man that boat was a PIG!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:30 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:18 am Man that boat was a PIG!
that's how I'm feeling about this Helms. She's very tender so I need to reserve judgment on how she preforms until we are under way with a bit of heel. The J24/30 has a distinct 12° preference for making time. Based on on the shape of the hull interior, I'm thinking I'll have the same experience with this hull. That said, she's not supposed to be a "go fast" boat as the Mrs keep calling her "a camper". That seems ominous.

I was actually considering putting a yanmar in the void. I just can't justify it since I have the outboard bracket, through transom plumbing, and functional systems to support an outboard. The one thing I'm not liking is the need to reach back for speed/transmission change. I would prefer an in cockpit option (for when the boss lady has to navigate). I'm likely to just build and extender that we can put on the transmission and I have a tiller extension for throttle. I just would rather have easy access.

And electric start. But that's being lazy.

I've not seen a lot of Tohatsu up here but I know they are big nearly everyplace south of here. Anyone have a compelling reason to not save the $400 extra needed to get a Yamaha or Honda?

Current hurdle is getting the title in hand. I've talked with all previous owners that are living and we just need the state to reissue as the most recent purchase/sale was a mess. Hoping to have that in a week.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:50 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:30 am
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:18 am Man that boat was a PIG!
that's how I'm feeling about this Helms.
SA/Displacement doesn't look piggish to me. My C&C is 17.88, a rocket, and the Helms is 16.94. My Leisure had the mast replaced with a shorter mast with in-mast furling from a Rhodes: small main, no roach, pig.

If you can't get the title is the deal off?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:12 am
by Jaysen
Nope. We will get the title, it's just tied up in bureaucracy which has Mrs reluctant to start dropping $$. Also preventing me from getting insurance and other necessities to get proper access to marina. Current marina contract owner is accommodating. We haven't "paid for the boat" formally so everything I'm doing "now" making the boss nervous.

I get the numbers. But she doesn't "feel" fast. I know that seems a bit snooty, but coming from J-Boats fast has some expectations that I'm not seeing. I think part of it is the lighter rigging and sails combined with the more comfortable interior. Once we get her off the dock I think I will pleasantly surprised.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:13 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:12 am coming from J-Boats fast has some expectations that I'm not seeing.
Yeah, those expectations are gonna need to be checked. Maybe do a few overnights/weekends on a J-boat to re-calibrate. :D

edit: Actually that J30 does look fairly comfortable, I had something a lot more day-sailorish in mind.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:44 pm
by Fuzz
About the outboard. Tohatsu made and maybe still makes all the smaller outboards for many of the other companies. What you get for the extra $400 is a different colour of paint.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:03 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:44 pm About the outboard. Tohatsu made and maybe still makes all the smaller outboards for many of the other companies. What you get for the extra $400 is a different colour of paint.
Tohatsu wins then. I figure these baby motors are all self serve for the most part when it comes to tuning and such anyway. I'm really hoping that the test with 6HP proves adequate (max speed before full throttle). I really don't want to need a bigger motor.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:09 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:13 pm
Jaysen wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:12 am coming from J-Boats fast has some expectations that I'm not seeing.
Yeah, those expectations are gonna need to be checked. Maybe do a few overnights/weekends on a J-boat to re-calibrate. :D

edit: Actually that J30 does look fairly comfortable, I had something a lot more day-sailorish in mind.
I would say that the Helms 24 is closer to the J30 for comfort but in the size of the J24/C25 class. So it FEELS super wide and deep. That normally means snail like performance. but the typical max hull speed of 6.8kn (mathematical) seems to be given a lie by the guys upstate racing these on lake Murray. They have GPS tracks showing regular 8-9kn in what would be "typical" wind for us ocean types (15+). Upon asking they are indicating no reefing needed until gusts are 25+ (much like the J30). If I get the same performance out of this hull I will not only be surprised, but I will be very very happy. I assume that the race guys are doing something performance wise that Mrs won't approve.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:34 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:09 pm
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:13 pm
Jaysen wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:12 am coming from J-Boats fast has some expectations that I'm not seeing.
Yeah, those expectations are gonna need to be checked. Maybe do a few overnights/weekends on a J-boat to re-calibrate. :D

edit: Actually that J30 does look fairly comfortable, I had something a lot more day-sailorish in mind.
I would say that the Helms 24 is closer to the J30 for comfort but in the size of the J24/C25 class. So it FEELS super wide and deep. That normally means snail like performance. but the typical max hull speed of 6.8kn (mathematical) seems to be given a lie by the guys upstate racing these on lake Murray. They have GPS tracks showing regular 8-9kn in what would be "typical" wind for us ocean types (15+). Upon asking they are indicating no reefing needed until gusts are 25+ (much like the J30). If I get the same performance out of this hull I will not only be surprised, but I will be very very happy. I assume that the race guys are doing something performance wise that Mrs won't approve.
I get pretty different theoretical numbers, interested in your math:

Using 1.34 hull speed factor:

20.83 LWL has a max hull speed of 6.11 knots when the boat is flat.

To get to 6.8 theoretical, you'd need 5 more feet of waterline.

8-9 knots would generate some creaking for sure!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:00 pm
by Jaysen
Figured out lazy jacks today. have them set up to be less stupid and actually raised then lowered sail. I see the value I as was able to properly flake that SOB all by my lonesome.
8160
8159

Ok... need to start thinking past the fuel system/engine as that has been "decided" (new motor, move to perm tank, replumb the deck fill). Current "must fix before leaving dock" are more ground tackle and running rigging.

Ground tackle
Current have 15lb Danforth with 6' chain, no rode. I know for a fact I will be anchoring in the open water OVER NIGHT at a depth of 40-60'. My plan was to keep the Danforth, extend chain to 20' and get 600' of rode. The collective knowledge of the internets say "3/8in is enough".
1. Is 3/8" adequate?
2. Should I consider breaking the 600' into multiple runs of 150'? Thinking it would be easier to manage if I'm only in 10' of water (it does complicate my anchoring system though).
3. Why should't I stick with the Danforth?

running rigging
a lot or the sheets and halyards are suffering from "exposure wear". The is most evident in the jib sheets, jib halyard and main halyard. The sheets and halyards all appear to the way oversized (1/2" - 5/8" ... the largest line on the J30 was 5/8 on the spinnaker). I plan to run with "what I have" for now but need to start planning to replace jib sheets. What is a good place to look for line sizing recommendations? I can't find anything that looks to be relevant as folks are selling based on model and Helms 24 isn't really listed. I figured there should be some calculator based on sail size. Please point the idiot in the right direction.

ancillary junk
Sail covers are shot. Mrs is all "go away" (only about making sail covers... still willing to keep me around). Seems like it should be easy to make as I have the old one for a pattern. Any one have words of warning on this? Smarter to just find a canvas shop and ask them to make it?

Thanks all.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:05 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:34 pm
Jaysen wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:09 pm I would say that the Helms 24 is closer to the J30 for comfort but in the size of the J24/C25 class. So it FEELS super wide and deep. That normally means snail like performance. but the typical max hull speed of 6.8kn (mathematical) seems to be given a lie by the guys upstate racing these on lake Murray. They have GPS tracks showing regular 8-9kn in what would be "typical" wind for us ocean types (15+). Upon asking they are indicating no reefing needed until gusts are 25+ (much like the J30). If I get the same performance out of this hull I will not only be surprised, but I will be very very happy. I assume that the race guys are doing something performance wise that Mrs won't approve.
I get pretty different theoretical numbers, interested in your math:

Using 1.34 hull speed factor:

20.83 LWL has a max hull speed of 6.11 knots when the boat is flat.

To get to 6.8 theoretical, you'd need 5 more feet of waterline.

8-9 knots would generate some creaking for sure!
That would be a math error on my math... I used the the wrong length... I also used 1.43. sqrt(23)*1.43. So I forked it all up.

The GPS data is solid. I need to ask them if it was flying the kite or what. The only way I can reconcile that in my head is a massive kite lifting the hull. I've see j24 flying pretty terrifyingly with the kite lifting bows.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:25 pm
by Fuzz
For your boat I would think 5-6hp would be all you will need. Try to get the largest diameter prop with the least pitch they make for the motor.

About the anchor I have found what type of bottom makes a huge difference. I would look around and see what the commercial boys in your area are using. Those boys don't give a hoot about the bling factor they just want what works.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:36 pm
by Jaysen
Bottom here is sand, mud, boats, freight containers, railroad cars, concrete debris and one very expensive marine corps jet. I’ll have to go to a couple shrimp docks to see what they use. Thanks for the tip.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:47 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:00 pm Figured out lazy jacks today. have them set up to be less stupid and actually raised then lowered sail. I see the value I as was able to properly flake that SOB all by my lonesome.
If you decide at some point they are not with the hassle, I'll give you my address. I would love lazy jacks but I'm too lazy/cheap.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:56 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:47 am
Jaysen wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:00 pm Figured out lazy jacks today. have them set up to be less stupid and actually raised then lowered sail. I see the value I as was able to properly flake that SOB all by my lonesome.
If you decide at some point they are not with the hassle, I'll give you my address. I would love lazy jacks but I'm too lazy/cheap.
Do a quick google for DIY lazy jacks. Assuming a "less than impressive" boom, 2 single blocks, 6 pitman/lead loops, 3/8" line, some whipping supplies, stack of rivets/self tapping screws, a drill and you're good. hardest part would be the attachment to the mast. Only hard if the mast is vertical. I need to actually see how I like these for a reefing situation, but I swear it's the best flake I've done dockside. .

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:16 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:56 am Do a quick google for DIY lazy jacks. Assuming a "less than impressive" boom, 2 single blocks, 6 pitman/lead loops, 3/8" line, some whipping supplies, stack of rivets/self tapping screws, a drill and you're good. hardest part would be the attachment to the mast. Only hard if the mast is vertical. I need to actually see how I like these for a reefing situation, but I swear it's the best flake I've done dockside. .
I will need to de-step my mast one of these years, going to add that to the list for when I do. I rarely use my main since I normally sail alone and the boat performs pretty damn well under my 130% alone. With lazy jacks I would def use it more.

600' of rode strikes me as a LOT of rode! I thought Florida was all shoal-draft! With all of that out, your swing diameter is nearly a quarter mile. I have 200' all-chain rode and that's it, outside of maybe 100' on my lunch hook. I guess if it's piled in a locker and you're only using what you need from the top it doesn't really matter how much is in the pile.

I gotta say, I have some real envy for your "new-to-me" boat energy. I remember perfectly the feeling I got when I pulled my boat out of the PO's slip when I took it over, smiling FOOL!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:17 pm
by Jaysen
600’ is planning 10:1 at 60’. With 6-9’ tides I’m looking At a max depth of 70-80’. Keep in mind I’m talking ocean ocean, not in a creek. I’d rather be laughed at for hauling in extra rode than for being dragged into danger.

200’ of chain would do better, but I’ve no practical way to get it back on board. Foredeck won’t support it. Not forward chain locker. Using rope I’ve the advantage of using a winch and ease of moving in and out of storage below deck. That’s my thought anyway.

My thought is to add a glass “basket” where the batts are “today” to serve as rode/chain storage. That will let it drain straight to bilge while allowing direct storage from the tail of the winch. Until basket is made... rubbermaid to are with holes! A 600’ spool is about $140 from Amazon. Seems pretty no-brainer to me. So I must be missing something.

It’s less “new to me energy” and more “LET ME GO SAILING!” Was prepped for 2 different boat builds. Both on hold. This boat is ready to leave the dock for a day sail once motor situation is sorted. Hope to have that answered and paid for in 2 weeks.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:17 pm
by terrulian
Somehow, I missed this whole discussion on Jaysen's new boat, and the consequent opportunity to share my ignorance.
So:
Ground tackle:
600' is going to be too much of a hassle and expense. I'm still not clear on your anchor rode storage but it looks like you're going to be anchoring in a lot of depth. Is this going to be normal or unusual? If unusual I think I'd put about 60'-100' of chain to about 250' of 3/8" nylon--MORE than enough. Check the West Marine recommendations https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/ ... vigilance. if you are normally going to be anchored in less than 30 feet, it is inconvenient to carry a huge amount of rode. You can put an eyesplice to a shackle at the bitter end if necessary, then keep another, say, 200 feet in a locker. You really shouldn't be anchoring anywhere that needs more than that, and it's never a bad idea to have a lot of rope aboard. 15 lb. Danforth is a little light; I'd want 25#, a pound per foot of boat length. Danforth is fine for mud and sand and is cheap. Sailors love to get their panties in a twist about what anchor you use but they've all saved my bacon. It's down to knowing how to anchor.
Read "One Hand For The Ship" by Tristan Jones for a lot of cool tips on shorthanded sailing.
https://www.amazon.com/One-Hand-Yoursel ... 951&sr=8-6
You don't need to overthink anchoring on a small boat. Just go to the bow and let it go; but see Tristan if you want a system that can be deployed from the cockpit.

Galley
Small butane stoves are great with easily replaceable fuel cans.


As to speed:
Who gives a shit? If you need to get somewhere, take a car/train/plane. If you're sailing, you're already there.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:25 pm
by Jeff
Really cool comment on speed Terrulian!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:08 pm
by VT_Jeff
terrulian wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:17 pm As to speed:
Who gives a shit? If you need to get somewhere, take a car/train/plane. If you're sailing, you're already there.
That is pretty hilarious, well said!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:25 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:17 pm Somehow, I missed this whole discussion on Jaysen's new boat, and the consequent opportunity to share my ignorance.
So:
Ground tackle:
600' is going to be too much of a hassle and expense. I'm still not clear on your anchor rode storage but it looks like you're going to be anchoring in a lot of depth. Is this going to be normal or unusual? If unusual I think I'd put about 60'-100' of chain to about 250' of 3/8" nylon--MORE than enough.
The 60' spot will be 1-2x per mo. It's the closest fishing hump that holds real fish. 12mi from the outlet or 20mi from dock.

Line storage: 2 things happening to make the void useable for anchor locker, 1) portable fuel tank replaced with permanent aluminum tank which will be on the tank shelf 2) batts moved off the engine mounts back to the "battery shelf" that sits above the water line (and behind barriers). This opens the void up to be used for just about anything. I was planning to start with a couple of buckets or storage bin (on the engine mounts) to hold all the rode and chain. The idea being that we would just fill the bucket/bin as we hauled anchor. water would just drain to bilge and we could just pull bin/bucket up to rinse on deck if needed.

My concern with that much chain is just getting it back on board with no windlass. That and getting it to storage without help (the void under the cockpit, there is no forward chain locker). I was training the chain length for scope. I guess I need to rethink that part of the plan a bit.

terrulian wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:17 pm Galley
Small butane stoves are great with easily replaceable fuel cans.
That's what I was thinking. West has a few for < $60 and they are cheap on line too. the advantage to getting from west is guarantee of fuel can availability. Boogie has a nice unit from Amazon that I might have to steal :)
terrulian wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:17 pm As to speed:
Who gives a shit? If you need to get somewhere, take a car/train/plane. If you're sailing, you're already there.
I'm with you there. I was just surprised by the speeds the race guys were getting. She feels slow, which I'm actually ok with, yet seems to perform well for others. We shall see. We didn't buy her to race.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:44 pm
by terrulian
That is quite a ways offshore, so the main issue there is having good weather forecasts, which I assume you know how to do in your area.

For hauling the rode back on board, no worries about the strength it takes to bring it in for chain/rope that small, even at, say, 60 feet. Your chain's going to weigh about 1/4#/ft. so that's about 15 pounds. Nylon is nothing. The chain together with the anchor may be 40 lbs., then, but you don't have to pull it all at one time. I think you'll not have an issue lifting it by hand. If you do, put a rolling hitch on it and run that back to your primary winch. I really don't think that will be necessary and a windlass is just way too much complication.

The main thing that will require strength is getting the anchor free. Motor up until the rode is vertical and it should come up. If not, use the motor to back up. If that doesn't do it, let me know and I'll have more ideas.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:00 pm
by Jaysen
Assuming the 60’ of chain, how much nylon would you deploy for 60’ of depth?

The cost of 600’ of nylon is marginal compared to the overall cost of sailing. I’m seeing this like a belt and suspenders and duct tape and staples. But if it isn’t needed I don’t mind the idea of not having it on board.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:06 pm
by Jaysen
Guess who gets to buy new batteries!

On the plus side tossing these anchors will let me use better and lighter tech. It will also make require heck of a lot simpler with them out of the void.

Gas tank removed. Going to get a quote from BBC on a perm.

No such thing as a cheap boat....

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:39 pm
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:00 pm Assuming the 60’ of chain, how much nylon would you deploy for 60’ of depth?

The cost of 600’ of nylon is marginal compared to the overall cost of sailing. I’m seeing this like a belt and suspenders and duct tape and staples. But if it isn’t needed I don’t mind the idea of not having it on board.
50+4*d or 290-60=230 feet of rope for
Combinations. I think the rule expect 50 feet of heavyih chain. I hate chain. I have no problem pulling the rope, but the chain is yuk.

Your boat is pretty small against this rule, so 200 is plenty. You gotta worry about swing path a bit. Or you'll be real safe with 50' of chain or 60 if you have it and jist add 4*depth. Never less than 50+2d or don't anchor there if you are that close to others.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:08 am
by Jaysen
Forgot to add the fuel shelf info... the original tank shelf is 16x28. I have 10” clearance but would like to limit the height to 8”.

Based on math, that about 15gal. Seems like way too much for a <8hp motor. Would it be smarter to use two tanks with one kept empty except for long trips?

On a positive, that much fuel makes the decision to have a neighbor hater (portable generator) easier. Definitely going to be added to inventory instead of generating from outboard.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:25 am
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:08 am Forgot to add the fuel shelf info... the original tank shelf is 16x28. I have 10” clearance but would like to limit the height to 8”.

Based on math, that about 15gal. Seems like way too much for a <8hp motor. Would it be smarter to use two tanks with one kept empty except for long trips?

On a positive, that much fuel makes the decision to have a neighbor hater (portable generator) easier. Definitely going to be added to inventory instead of generating from outboard.
Tow tanks are two pains in the ass on a small boat. Honestly, I'd portable 6 gallons for a long trip. It is a sailboat, right?

I went up the Namakan in November and had 18 gallons of fuel; drove around way too much fishing rod n reel. Came in on 6 gallon reserve and switched to main tanks when I arrived; made it like a mile of 16 back to landing. Main empty. 6 gallon reserve had like a gallon and a half left. Dodged a big bullet. I was the only boat I saw and even none at a dock to siphon for all 16 miles.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:59 am
by Jaysen
Problem is storage for portable. All under deck storage is electrically live and/or in cabin. The tank I have now is portable.

On deck storage will be wet. My experience with portables kept on deck is that water will be in the fuel.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:43 am
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:59 am Problem is storage for portable. All under deck storage is electrically live and/or in cabin. The tank I have now is portable.

On deck storage will be wet. My experience with portables kept on deck is that water will be in the fuel.
You can jerry can and pour it. But if you want two perm, go for it. Plenty of boats tie on jerry cans for long trips. Then the jerry can be used on the genny. Sorry.

Did you see my note about posting a reply and the buffer quoting me? Jist asking. It is a small nuisance. Like getting a hair in the layup. A permanent source for dna collection.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:24 am
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:43 am
Jaysen wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:59 am Problem is storage for portable. All under deck storage is electrically live and/or in cabin. The tank I have now is portable.
You can jerry can and pour it. But if you want two perm, go for it. Plenty of boats tie on jerry cans for long trips. Then the jerry can be used on the genny. Sorry.
Jerry cans do a much better job of keeping the water out. If I go "small tank" I will use Jerries for long trips. I've done the refill the boat from cans under way and am not too worried about that. The generator is just another tank. I've seen a few that can directly connect to an external marine tank and that's my plan there (Honda is the one I've used).

After talking with Jeff I need to get some more measurements and decide what size. I'm thinking of two options
1. Make the tank sit lower than the shelf, but use the shelf rails to support the tank. This will allow me to put "stuff" on top of the tank as well as reduce the "slosh" a bit.
2. put the tank "up" so that it sits closer to the cockpit floor but still mounts on the shelf rails. This would create a "tall tank" but leave a lot of proper shelf space for storage or mechanics (like anchor chain/rode buckets or a generator :)).

Once I get a plan and some drawings I'll post here for folks to change my mind :D
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:43 am Did you see my note about posting a reply and the buffer quoting me? Jist asking. It is a small nuisance. Like getting a hair in the layup. A permanent source for dna collection.
This is due to a save session not getting cleared. The saves are in cookies on your local machine. The best thing to do is to clear cookies for community.boatbuildercentral.com. This will require you to log in again, but should remove all saves. If you want to keep a save (I have a couple I need to keep) then go to the user control panel (under your login name in the header), the overview tab, then click on manage drafts. You should be able to delete them there.

To prevent this, make sure you give the system a couple second after you post a message to clear the old save. If you are on a slower connection (could be slow server or slow internet or...) it may take a bit longer. I find I need to wait 5sec before hitting the back button.

Hope that helps.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:19 am
by Jaysen
8163

The void.

Looks like it was a sail drive previously. That pedestal has the classic sail drive profile. Is also the only penetration through the hull for a shaft.

You can see where the fuel tank will go. I’m strongly considering putting the tank mostly “below” the shelf and adding a wood platform over it to allow for soft material storage.

The batteries will be replaced to the battery holes on the upper left. Need to add proper box/liners and tie down straps. Will replace exiting batts (lead acid 65ah) with something more modern (read lighter smaller). I don’t think I actually need 65ah but need to meter to be sure.

Next actions for today/this weekend are cleaning up the wood mess, replacing some running rigging, and removing electrical crap that isn’t needed. Might get some more pics later.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:10 pm
by Jeff
Good start Jaysen!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:41 pm
by Jaysen
8164

Got enough done to test fit the battery boxes. Will need to add support via blocking or straps. I’m leaning toward nylon straps under the boxes with a clipped strap over the top.

The electrical panel is on starboard as well which makes me happier. The only complication to this arrangement is that the shore power comes in on port. I’ll have to run the battery management across.

Mrs made the call to get the Tohatsu sail drive WITH alternator. No generator needed. That simplifies what has to live in the void.

Jeff, I have measurements and just need to start drawing ideas. Looks like I’m going to wind up with a sloped lower section that might address the concerns about heeled motoring. Maybe.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:07 am
by fallguy1000
Is the area where the motor goes open to the sky above? I am confused. It looks like you run an engine in a partially enclosed space?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:25 am
by Jaysen
The starboard lazerette allows access to the void. In those photos I have it open to allow more light and an “exit” for crap that I was removing. I may have used it as an exit when my help put the companionway stairs in forgetting I was in there.

The starboard side of this hull as a LOT of stuff that has to be serviced/maintained.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:53 am
by fallguy1000
Where do exhaust fumes go?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:28 am
by Jaysen
There is a 4” high volume blower for ambient fumes. There is a 1.5” water muffler and exhaust below water line (closed at last refit).

At this point the motor will be an outboard forever.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:15 am
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:28 am There is a 4” high volume blower for ambient fumes. There is a 1.5” water muffler and exhaust below water line (closed at last refit).

At this point the motor will be an outboard forever.
Can you even run a CO detector or will it go off all the time?

It is hard to ask these without sounding patronizing.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:48 am
by Jaysen
Sure. But with no motor in the hull and all cooking being CO safe I don’t know why I would need one.

I will not be putting a motor in the void. Just not going to be worth the effort to put holes in the hull.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:53 pm
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:48 am Sure. But with no motor in the hull and all cooking being CO safe I don’t know why I would need one.

I will not be putting a motor in the void. Just not going to be worth the effort to put holes in the hull.
Oh, sorry. For some reason I thought the motor WAS going there.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:01 pm
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:53 pm
Jaysen wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:48 am Sure. But with no motor in the hull and all cooking being CO safe I don’t know why I would need one.

I will not be putting a motor in the void. Just not going to be worth the effort to put holes in the hull.
Oh, sorry. For some reason I thought the motor WAS going there.
I was considering an emotor and will have fuel tank in the void. If I ever do put a generator on board it will be stored but not run in the void. Mrs is pretty much forbidding the neighbor hater and wants the tohatsu with alternator.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:24 am
by glossieblack
I know you've been attracted to serial-hybrid drive chains for years, but for your Helms 24, I reckon Mrs J is calling it right. :wink:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:34 am
by Jaysen
Less her repeated applications of fry pan to my cranium and more the uncovering of all through holes for drive train being fully glassed closed. I would need to pull out if the water for an extended period of time and would wind up needing to manufacture some conversion from “sail drive” to “shaft drive”.

Mrs point is that for $us2,000 I can get a brand new motor and custom internal tank and be sailing. She’s big on the “shut up and take me sailing” right now.

No matter how you stack it, a new tohatsu 6hp sail pro unit makes sense.

Hybrid drive all day if I get a big boat.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:09 am
by Jaysen
Jeff, not sure if JM is willing to comment, but I would like his opinion if he is board for the day...

On the Helm, there is a wood compression post underneath the mast (post is in great shape). There is bulkhead ply to port, door then more ply to starboard. It appears that there are gaps between this ply and the cabin top and sole. The ply DOES NOT extend below sole and appears unsupported other than a reinforcement ridge under the sole (tough to see with the limited access). Previous owners have pretty well ruined the ply via cutting holes for radios and screwing things into it. Current ply is 1/2" cabinet ply. Might be marine, but it is, it isn't high quality. I honestly believe it has been replaced at least once before.

Questions:
1. Do I need to be concerned about "high end" marine ply here? Mrs is leaning toward painting?
2. If I get into this and find that it is structural (fully supported to hull and under load) does that change the answer? My understanding is that it shouldn't be as the load should be entirely on the compression post vs no post (bulk head distributed load)
3. Current bulk head appears to be using some type of packing material between bulkhead and mounting point that is then covered with fabric. I don't know what this packing is for. Does anyone know what it is for and what a suitable replacement would be?

Thanks.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:15 am
by jacquesmm
1 don't know the designer intent. It may be that he consider the master post sufficient and that what you describe is not structural in which case, you can do what you want.
In my designs, I make the master bulkhead structural. It helps preventing buckling of the master post but here, I don't know. The design approach is completely.
There can be a problem mixing two methods. If the designer counted on some flexibility, a very stiff bulkhead will work against that. Stay with the designer intent.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:28 am
by Jaysen
Thank you Jacques. I'll just cut to the current sizing. I'm also seeing that I should dismast to reduce any stress before removing the current bulkhead.

Thanks again!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:30 am
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:09 am Jeff, not sure if JM is willing to comment, but I would like his opinion if he is board for the day...

On the Helm, there is a wood compression post underneath the mast (post is in great shape). There is bulkhead ply to port, door then more ply to starboard. It appears that there are gaps between this ply and the cabin top and sole. The ply DOES NOT extend below sole and appears unsupported other than a reinforcement ridge under the sole (tough to see with the limited access). Previous owners have pretty well ruined the ply via cutting holes for radios and screwing things into it. Current ply is 1/2" cabinet ply. Might be marine, but it is, it isn't high quality. I honestly believe it has been replaced at least once before.

Questions:
1. Do I need to be concerned about "high end" marine ply here? Mrs is leaning toward painting?
2. If I get into this and find that it is structural (fully supported to hull and under load) does that change the answer? My understanding is that it shouldn't be as the load should be entirely on the compression post vs no post (bulk head distributed load)
3. Current bulk head appears to be using some type of packing material between bulkhead and mounting point that is then covered with fabric. I don't know what this packing is for. Does anyone know what it is for and what a suitable replacement would be?

Thanks.
Pictures?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:38 am
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:30 am Pictures?
Nothing I asked someone-who-shall-not-be-blamed-for-not-knowing-the-parts-of-a-boat to take pictures of came out. I should be able to get to her tomorrow and will take proper shots then.

In her defense, someone-who-shall-not-be-blamed-for-not-knowing-the-parts-of-a-boat was very happy to help and very apologetic of the quality. I really am lucky that she is as eager to "get to sailing" as I am. I don't see many guys my age with a spouse as happily supportive as mine. Seems like a more common thing here in BBC land so maybe we are all doing something right.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:37 pm
by terrulian
I don't know if you remember, but my Ericson 39 split athwartships under the main bulkhead. I don't want to go into great detail about how this happened but it was due to this basic fact: In all sailboats, the mast is pushing down and the shrouds and stays are resisting that force. There needs to be very positive structural rigidity between the chainplates and the mast step. I couldn't quite visualize from your description whether this may be compromised, so like fallguy I would like photos. I hope I haven't intruded on Jacques territory and I also hope I have this correctly visualized.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:00 pm
by fallguy1000
terrulian wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:37 pm I don't know if you remember, but my Ericson 39 split athwartships under the main bulkhead. I don't want to go into great detail about how this happened but it was due to this basic fact: In all sailboats, the mast is pushing down and the shrouds and stays are resisting that force. There needs to be very positive structural rigidity between the chainplates and the mast step. I couldn't quite visualize from your description whether this may be compromised, so like fallguy I would like photos. I hope I haven't intruded on Jacques territory and I also hope I have this correctly visualized.
It sounds like you have a better handle on it.

I am mostly curious about the packing material bit.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:16 am
by Jaysen
Images

The two segments of bulkheads we are talking about. Note the ridge that runs the cabin roof all the way to the deck junction
8185
8186
Note the smiling boat bling.

Here are some pictures of the areas the have me questioning if it is structural. As I pick at that fabric... that is all it is. It looks like upholstery fabric stuffed to fill the gaps.
8187
8188

But then there is this. Inner shroud chain plates. There is a solid section of wood from the built up ridge to the bottom of the chain plate that I think is bearing the load into the ridge. The ply doesn’t make contact with the cabin top in that area.
8189
8190

Still trying to get images below. Mrs is less smiley when I start throwing sails and cushions at her.

Edit: can’t get images from below because the mid section is glassed from hull to cabin sole. Don’t know if it is solid fore/aft as there is no inspection hatch that I can find. The wood stops at the cabin sole. Same “fit” with gaps ranging from 1/6 to 3/8” stuffed town fabric.

This is fun.

In other news we have completed the official transaction! Just need to complete registration with state. That marks the happiest boat owner day...

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:26 pm
by Jeff
Congrats on the completion of the purchase!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:35 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:26 pm Congrats on the completion of the purchase!!!! Jeff
Thanks Jeff. With Mrs on board it was much easier to get “budget committee approval” for some things. The rain even helped with demonstration of “water ingress is bad”. May be giving you all a call early next week for some product guidance.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:09 pm
by Jeff
OK!!! Have a good weekend!!!! Sorry about the leaks!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:13 pm
by Jaysen
We knew the leaks were there. Standard issues on a 40yr old boat. Rebed stanchions and replace hatch seals will cover the worst.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:14 pm
by Jeff
Good!!!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:43 am
by fallguy1000
I looked at your pictures and nothing stands out as horrible. It looks to me as though the upholstery fabric is nothing more than draft seal to keep heat in one section?

Perhaps I am full of it, but if they wall off the sleeping berth; maybe that'd make sense?

The BH cutout is pretty small. If it bothers you, I'd say you could piece it in with ply and cabosil and hang a picture over it or a bumper sticker.

It is hard to get the perspective.

Have you discovered the iphone .5x picture? It really helps in small spaces.

I am a bit jealous of the idea you are in the water. Especially as it is minus 13 here now.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:56 am
by Jaysen
I think the fabric is more of a rattle stopper. There is no upholstery on the bulkhead at all. The more I sit here and look at this the more I’m convinced that the lip the bulkhead screws to is the load bearing part. The rigging is tight but the bulkhead is loose. That would mean that all the tension is on the compression post and chain plates. To that end, the only part of that bulkhead that forms not have rattles is where the shroud chain plates are secured.

It is the radio, speaker, clock and screw holes that bother me. The Mrs wants the “bucket hole” (why can’t she say “head”) to be more private. Based on the little bit of moister evidenced in both ends of the bulkhead I figure they now is the perfect time to pull the bulkhead and address what ever is going on. And since it’s out, I can use the old as a template to just cut a new bulkhead. Much easier - and faster - than patching.

My phone is oooollllld. Nothing less the 1x. Let me know what are you need to see better. I need excuses to be up here.

Typing this from the boat. T short and jeans. Yes, heater is running on shore power. Working to refit and temp connect the battery tender. Realizing that I will have to move it to make it safe. That or extend the battery connection leads. Hmmm

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:09 am
by terrulian
I wish I could say I understood the problem better.
This is a deck-stepped mast, right? I'd want to know if the deck is moving at the partners while under sail close-hauled. Even this may not be devastating, as what you want is rigidity between mast, keel, and chainplates. Another check would be also under sail: Tie a line athwartships at deck level in the cabin right at the mast. While sailing, look below and see if the line is becoming slack and then taught.
These are just tests to try to evaluate the issue, if any.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:20 am
by Jaysen
I don't "think" there is an issues structurally. I don't want to create one. The bulkheads at the compression post have had holes cut and all kinds of things screwed in. My thought was to just replace the bulkhead vs patch it.

She is deck stepped. I will check for movement once we get her on the water. I will be lowing mast but wanted to do that later in the year. I may move that to "sooner" if we find issues.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:25 pm
by OrangeQuest
Jaysen wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:56 am I think the fabric is more of a rattle stopper. There is no upholstery on the bulkhead at all. The more I sit here and look at this the more I’m convinced that the lip the bulkhead screws to is the load bearing part. The rigging is tight but the bulkhead is loose. That would mean that all the tension is on the compression post and chain plates. To that end, the only part of that bulkhead that forms not have rattles is where the shroud chain plates are secured.

I don't know nothing about sail boats but from the pictures this thinking seems to make sense. Some where around where the bulkhead is and whatever is around it possible flexes/moves. To keep it from making all kinds of noise the stuffing is there so it is quieter. Old WWII sub movies where the sub dives below her safe depth and things start to creek, moan and gauges pop! That's your boat in a strong wind.

When you take the bulkhead out look for clues that you are correct, or wrong.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:40 am
by Jaysen
Spent a few hours on the-now-officially-named “Lil Bit More” yesterday. Heading out again today for some follow up and cleaning. No pictures but a few pondering points...

Harken winches are stuck the fork on. Can’t get the slotted bolt out to pull calendar and get into their guts. Snapped 4 screw drivers. Going back today with chemistry on my side.

Fuel tank is being simplified. My plan was originally a slopped shaped thing that had a lot of angle. Now that I’ve spent some time dealing with leaky cockpit drains I making a rectangle. I can make an upright (16-19-15) that will pretty much block access to port side or a flat (16-28-7) that will be a tempting shelf like surface. I’m not sure if upright is ideal. Slow boat, listing, waves. Seems “sloshy”. Also need to rethink the in/out/vent/sender ports. Do I need a single low point for the pickup? Thoughts?

Mrs is starting her “I need to clean it” now that the major work is done. She’s decided the bulkhead will stay as is “I have a pretty fabric I can put over it!” put a smile on her face.

Remaining projects are
1. Motor acquisition
2. Masthead electrical/instrumentation
3. Electrical gremlin hunting
4. Sail cover and cushions.

Only #1 is keeping us off the water.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:56 pm
by OrangeQuest
For #3 I would replace as much, if not all, the wiring till you know what goes where and that the connections are sound. I have chased plenty of wiring issues in the automotive field and that is with factory wiring and factory diagrams of what goes where. You are dealing with a used boat that has unknow quality of wiring. Knowing the job was done correctly will give you peace of mind in the open sea.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:27 pm
by Jaysen
OQ, same page. Thing is that all “critical” systems are working well. Kind of in a “don’t fix it till it’s broke” mode. The plan is to replace nearly all wiring by end of year though.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:49 pm
by Fuzz
If the Mrs is starting to make it "pretty" you are lucky. Means she likes it and that can only be good news for you :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:56 pm
by Jaysen
Today we tightened up a couple stanchions. I need to pull them, check the deck then rebed. For now they are tight and no longer letting water directly into the cabin.

Still have a stuck on winch. I can’t find any markers on these winches. The effort to get the grease off killed the finish on the one I did get off. Not sure how to progress other than a CNC shop or buying new.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:06 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:49 pm If the Mrs is starting to make it "pretty" you are lucky. Means she likes it and that can only be good news for you :D
Yeah. She seems to be seeing more as “the boat I let Jaysen sail” than “the boat Jaysen has”. I can live with that.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:09 pm
by Fuzz
Maybe it is the boat Jaysen uses to take me where I want to go :lol: Either way keeping momma happy is a smart move. I would chime in more on your thread but I know nothing about blow boats.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:09 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:56 pm Today we tightened up a couple stanchions. I need to pull them, check the deck then rebed. For now they are tight and no longer letting water directly into the cabin.

Still have a stuck on winch. I can’t find any markers on these winches. The effort to get the grease off killed the finish on the one I did get off. Not sure how to progress other than a CNC shop or buying new.

Is the winch stuck on the boat or just siezed?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:16 pm
by Jaysen
These look to be ancient harken (slotted bolt retains handle socket and drum retainer, pawls in drum, only 4 parts, four pawls, one bolt).

The super forked up “stuck one” of frozen and the bolt slat is getting super not slotted. I’m about to take a grinder to the nuts inside the cabin then just replace the winch. I’ve become a bit enamored with the uber simplicity of these things. I hate the idea of the o early complicated, newfangled things.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:16 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:16 pm These look to be ancient harken (slotted bolt retains handle socket and drum retainer, pawls in drum, only 4 parts, four pawls, one bolt).

The super forked up “stuck one” of frozen and the bolt slat is getting super not slotted. I’m about to take a grinder to the nuts inside the cabin then just replace the winch. I’ve become a bit enamored with the uber simplicity of these things. I hate the idea of the o early complicated, newfangled things.

I took some simple winches off my Leisure, replaced with self'tailers,been sitting around for years. But they are out at the lake, may be a month before I get out there. If the stars align I'll get em to you.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:02 am
by cape man
I would break out the grinder and replace.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:34 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:16 pm I took some simple winches off my Leisure, replaced with self'tailers,been sitting around for years. But they are out at the lake, may be a month before I get out there. If the stars align I'll get em to you.
Let me know what you have and the exchange rate :) I’d love to get something as simple as these as the idea of needless complexity makes me cringe.
cape man wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:02 am I would break out the grinder and replace.
I’m afraid that’s just about all that’s left. But I’m not sure “with what” or if I really never need the cabin tops. Right now everything is in cam cleats. Both port and starboard with 2 more winches on the mast. I’m thinking that I can route the one port side jib halyard to starboard (main, top jib, spin, fractional jib) through a clutch block. Then all I would have on port are the pole topping and downhaul. Remove the winches from the mast as every line would then be cockpit run. Then I only have to replace the bent sheet winch.

It is a shame that the current systems are so complex. I get it for a 2sp or a reduction. But a simple 1x ratchet shouldn’t need a ton of complexity.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:24 pm
by terrulian
Weird about the winches. But Jeff's offer looks like a great deal!
With regard to wiring: I am assuming you'll be stepping and unstepping the mast to transport. So why even have wiring to the masthead? There's nothing up there that's required and you don't need wind instruments.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:32 pm
by VT_Jeff
terrulian wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:24 pm With regard to wiring: I am assuming you'll be stepping and unstepping the mast to transport. So why even have wiring to the masthead? There's nothing up there that's required and you don't need wind instruments.
My last 2 boats had a steaming light halfway up the mast and an anchor light at the mast head, both are required....I think.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:46 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:32 pm
terrulian wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:24 pm With regard to wiring: I am assuming you'll be stepping and unstepping the mast to transport. So why even have wiring to the masthead? There's nothing up there that's required and you don't need wind instruments.
My last 2 boats had a steaming light halfway up the mast and an anchor light at the mast head, both are required....I think.
There is no transport... she's a floating island with a 4' fin keel. While the mast is deck stepped it will only come down for any repair or long term storage. Up top we have the required safety stuff per Jeff as well as some ancient wind gear that is supposed to talk to some gauges in the cockpit. None of that works "right now" as the connectors and the wires are not ... connected or wired. While she's safe to sail, I would have to be on dock well before sun set.

I think I've figured out that the current winches would be equivalent to Harken Classic series in sizes 6 (mast and cabin top) and 8 (sheeting). Just about everything except that internal components measures the same.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:38 pm
by terrulian
72 Colregs RULE 30:
Anchored Vessels and Vessels Aground
............
(b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white
light where it can best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph
(a) of this Rule.


The anchor light doesn't need to be at the masthead, just visible all-round. Therefore, you can hang it from the boom when needed and run a wire to a 12-volt socket in the cabin.
You can have a windex at the top of the mast for wind direction, which you really only need downwind; and as for windspeed, that's only necessary for bragging. The boat will tell you when to reef.

Steaming light must be white and above the sidelights but not necessarily exactly 1/2 up the mast. It has an arc of 225 degrees, same as both port and starboard together. To avoid wiring, you can buy a battery operated stern light and black out 135 degrees, and then velcro it to the front of the mast. How often will you be sailing at night?

Getting wiring properly done inside a mast is doable but a bit of a pain. Just trying to save you some hassle. :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:13 pm
by Jaysen
The wiring in mast actually looks good. I have t taken a batt up there to test things. I was actually planning to wait for the mast to be down to determine state of mast internals. That said, all the lights are built into the mast. It would be ideal to use what is there.

If I do lose the electrical in mast my plan was to use the 3/4 halyard (whisker topping lift, storm halyard) to pull a lamp. I’d like to do the cunliffe style oil lamp but wife is smarter and will enforce “use a battery you idiot”. Steaming light will be problematic as ... sailing. Jib will cover a large range of the visibility.

How much at night? Mrs has grand visions of leaving the dock in the evening and sailing through the night. That will leave her the days to lounge about the foredeck or the nearest beach. I expect reality will be a significant amount will be at night but not more than 25%. The entire point right now is “staycation”. The first 5 places she wants to sleep are within sight of the neighbors dock. That’s still 2hr sail and anchor time.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:33 pm
by VT_Jeff
terrulian wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:38 pm 72 Colregs RULE 30:
Anchored Vessels and Vessels Aground
............
(b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white
light where it can best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph
(a) of this Rule.


The anchor light doesn't need to be at the masthead, just visible all-round. Therefore, you can hang it from the boom when needed and run a wire to a 12-volt socket in the cabin.
You can have a windex at the top of the mast for wind direction, which you really only need downwind; and as for windspeed, that's only necessary for bragging. The boat will tell you when to reef.

Steaming light must be white and above the sidelights but not necessarily exactly 1/2 up the mast. It has an arc of 225 degrees, same as both port and starboard together. To avoid wiring, you can buy a battery operated stern light and black out 135 degrees, and then velcro it to the front of the mast. How often will you be sailing at night?

Getting wiring properly done inside a mast is doable but a bit of a pain. Just trying to save you some hassle. :D

Yes. I was thinking along the same lines. Hoisting a battery powered led for the anchor light, and a stick on steaming light. The lights are required but in-mast wiring isn't neccessarily.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:56 pm
by terrulian
If yer mast wiring is good, no problem. Somehow I was assuming it wasn't.
You don't use the steaming light while sailing so the jib can't be an issue for the steaming light...if I understood what you were referring to.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:03 pm
by Jaysen
I’m unclear on when that steaming light is on. I thought it was on when underway at night when nav lights are one. Which never made sense because sails. I need to brush up on all that again.

Wiring problems with mast are currently just the connectors to the deck. Under the deck is a different story. That’s easy to fix though. I mean easy compared to wiring inside a 30’ tube.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:55 am
by terrulian
Between dusk and dawn and in periods of reduced visibility (fog or heavy rain or smoke) when you are using your engine for propulsion, you show your red, green, and white nav lights plus the steaming light. This shows you are a powerboat for the rules of the road. This is true whether or not you have your main up. (There is a day shape also but you never see anyone use it, for when you are motoring during daylight.) When only using sails for propulsion, you never use the steaming light at night, just the deck lights mentioned above. Navigation lights are the way other ships will identify you, so it's important for your safety and theirs that you show proper lights.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:17 am
by Jaysen
That’s simple. Run the motor turn all nav lights on. No motor only the ends. Thanks Tony.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:56 am
by Jaysen
Someone keep me from doing something stupid.

I need to replace the washboards and retaining trim. I'm thinking of getting a bigish hunk of the starboard and making it all out of that. a 34x32x1/2 inch will make something that I think will be zero maint and easy to build/modify. My concerns are
1. It gets hot down here... will this stuff deform in the heat?
2. Between my need for a motor, sails in the new 6-12mo, and unknown electrical stuff, is $400 extra for zero maint washboards cash well spent?

I can buy a LOT of meranti for $400...

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:55 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:56 am Someone keep me from doing something stupid.

I need to replace the washboards and retaining trim. I'm thinking of getting a bigish hunk of the starboard and making it all out of that. a 34x32x1/2 inch will make something that I think will be zero maint and easy to build/modify. My concerns are
1. It gets hot down here... will this stuff deform in the heat?
2. Between my need for a motor, sails in the new 6-12mo, and unknown electrical stuff, is $400 extra for zero maint washboards cash well spent?

I can buy a LOT of meranti for $400...
1. I would challenge your assumption/assertion that they need to be replaced.
2. If they actually do: I would make them out of PT plywood. You can get a 2'X4' piece at Home Depot, splash some white rust-o-leuem on it, done. Cost will be about $40.00. Ask me how I know.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:41 pm
by Jaysen
Oh they need replaced.

Three different sources. Different radius on the curves (originals not curved). Too narrow. Bevels don’t match.

Basically they are currently the largest point of water ingress now that I’ve fixed the stanchion.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:16 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:41 pm Oh they need replaced.

Three different sources. Different radius on the curves (originals not curved). Too narrow. Bevels don’t match.

Basically they are currently the largest point of water ingress now that I’ve fixed the stanchion.
Re-break the stanchion

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:20 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:16 pm
Jaysen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:41 pm Oh they need replaced.

Three different sources. Different radius on the curves (originals not curved). Too narrow. Bevels don’t match.

Basically they are currently the largest point of water ingress now that I’ve fixed the stanchion.
Re-break the stanchion
Not the kind of solution that inspires confidence in the boss lady. A practical solution but... not one she liked.

I have the head bump to prove it.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:24 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:20 pm Not the kind of solution that inspires confidence in the boss lady. A practical solution but... not one she liked.

I have the head bump to prove it.
Understood. At least now you know where "under-the-top-solution" Jeff stands on the issue.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:10 pm
by Fuzz
Camera broke :doh:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:39 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:10 pm Camera broke :doh:
In the sense that "idiot didn't take pictures"... yes. :P

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:03 pm
by Fuzz
In the sense pictures make it easier for the old guy to be sure what you are talking about :wink:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:39 pm
by Jaysen
8113
The washboards are the “wood” slats in the companionway. The middle one barely overlaps the bottom. The top falls out if you don’t get it “just right”. The teak trim is shot. The bottom is too big to fit without twisting the trim (and getting stuck). The PO used Thompson’s Water Seal on it so now I’m pretty sure it’s not recoverable even if I could reduce the grain.

That’s the scoop.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:52 pm
by terrulian
They have to be replaced, obviously. It's too bad that teak, the traditional solution, has gotten so expensive. Jeff's solution would work and is cheap but I couldn't personally bear it. Starboard would work OK or acrylic. Neither will break the bank. But how about sapele? It is a pleasure to come to the boat and see a nicely varnished wooden companionway, something to show off and appear nautical.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:15 pm
by Jaysen
The question is, do I trade some dollars now for more time sailing later?

I know varnish isn’t really high maintenance but it still requires time on a good day. You can’t just take the boards off and lock them in a shop for a week.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:37 pm
by terrulian
What are we talking, money-wise? Sapele isn't that much more than starboard. If you want to avoid varnishing every year, you either cover it or you use Cetol. We looked into custom canvas for our 22 and it was just ridiculous, so we used a $10 tarp which lasted about five years, and held it down with bungee cords. Varnish continued to look great. You've already got teak handrails and you have to deal with those. Our tarp covered from the companionway up to the mast, including the handrails. The tarp didn't look that elegant but the teak did.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:01 pm
by Jaysen
I have spare handrails in the lazerette. Spares will be refinished then installed. I’m planning the tarp routine once we get a few more things ready. Oddly it’s easier to find water ingress when everything is exposed.

You’ve not helped. I was all resigned to ugly washboards and you’ve made me realize I hate that idea. I’ll send the Mrs to seek revenge from you when she says “why are refinishing thousand?”

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:14 pm
by Fuzz
May I suggest some cdx plywood painted with Kilz? Ok if you want fancy use some ACX A side out of course :lol:

Might not be good where you are but one or more boards made from tinted Lexan would sure let in the light.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:27 pm
by Jaysen
The plan is that there will be 2 middle sections. One solid, the other tinted lex. That will let us have the light when we want it but keep it solid when we don’t want visibility.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:37 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:27 pm The plan is that there will be 2 middle sections. One solid, the other tinted lex. That will let us have the light when we want it but keep it solid when we don’t want visibility.
My companionway hatch is a single piece(of plywood. of course) and doubles as a grilling table off the back rail. "Everything on a boat should have at least 2 jobs" I once heard. Big benefit of a single piece is that there are fewer opportunities for ingress.

I do like your idea about the swap-out lexan center section, it's giving me ideas about adding a lexan window in mine.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:25 am
by Jaysen
The problems with 1 pannel:
• No ability to alter the amount of "open" for cool/wet weather
• The ability to have fully opaque vs some "glass"
• Storage when full open underway
• Ability for less capable person to open (limited lifting capacity)

That said, IF we do any real offshore (more than 2 days silaing or a week at anchor), I will create a "one pannel" top pivoting hatch to replace the washboards entirely. This is common in the mini series boats (6.5, 7.2, 580). Basically, a vertical opening watertight hatch that you bolt over the companionway. I'll just use the 580 method to make it work well.

I'm still thinking this through. The idea of pretty wood... it's the right thing. But so is "cheap". The cost of this entire boat is less than the new motor will cost. I'm under no allusion that this boat is the only one we will own. Mrs keeps saying "will it be worth the effort/cost if we sell in a year".

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:49 am
by terrulian
Aesthetics count to most buyers...although not me.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:00 pm
by fallguy1000
Starboard. Heavier than hell. Something like 209 pounds at 3/4 full sheet. I hate it. Your wife won't like lifting it full panel. At 30" square the panel will weigh 40 pounds. Okay, it might not be that heavy, but I am really a strong person and I had to have help getting the full sheet on the saw. I bet it is like 120# for the full sheet. I checked it is 120# for st type.

I bought two panels for my kitchen and the cost was like $800. Then when making faceframes; it deforms on screw entry so there are little humps showing at all my kreg screws. Do over is lumber and I am made about it cuz I have lumber in stock.. no $$. Also, you can't glue it without special glues. Ugh. $236 for glues to glue my faceframes to marine foam. Epoxy useless.

You can go to Woodcraft and buy some african mahogany boards for 8-16$ a sqft. Weight is half. Look is precious. Cost at $15 is on the order of

And yes, starboard will deform in high heat. Trying to remember who told me...might have been boatsmith fl.

Don't do it. I did to avoid paint. You want to avoid varnish.

Better to use 20# coosa and paint it.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:09 pm
by fallguy1000
Personally, get dark lexan. Build african mahogany frame. Done. Light. One piece. Dual purpose. Noone can see in at night. If you want absolute privacy, put up a piece of fabric inside that doubles as a mosquito screen.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:07 pm
by Fuzz
fallguy1000 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:09 pm Personally, get dark lexan. Build african mahogany frame. Done. Light. One piece. Dual purpose. Noone can see in at night. If you want absolute privacy, put up a piece of fabric inside that doubles as a mosquito screen.
I bet this would look really sharp!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:14 am
by VT_Jeff
Fuzz wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:07 pm
fallguy1000 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:09 pm Personally, get dark lexan. Build african mahogany frame. Done. Light. One piece. Dual purpose. Noone can see in at night. If you want absolute privacy, put up a piece of fabric inside that doubles as a mosquito screen.
I bet this would look really sharp!
My Precision 18 had that exact setup about.

Still miss that boat! :(

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:20 pm
by Jaysen
Interesting information collected today. Under solid current and wind match current direction, a 6hp will not move the hull at all. Looks like I’m getting away with an inexpensive solution.

Oh well.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:14 am
by Fuzz
How much wind and current were you trying to go against? What prop is on the motor, is it a little prop with a bunch of pitch? I know your hull is much slicker than my SeaPort and 8hp will move it along at close to 6 knots.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:46 am
by Jaysen
Per the dock aster 4kn current and 10mph wind (no sail deployed because I’m not completely stupid but jib rolled on furler). Motor is the stand Yammy 6 with stock prod (7” 8p?).

Based on all our fun we have few things that encourage me to expand my plan.
1. Jack plate installed port side. Makes motor controls super awkward.
2. Pushpit, backstay, solar, vhf all make tilt a PITA let alone plate change.
3. All the above make manual start damn near impossible.
4. With 20” motor in plate, the cab plate of under water until my oversized self gowns forward. Then it isn’t. I’m thinking I need to look at a 25”.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:34 am
by Jaysen
In other news, The Boss walked into my office and said "I think we should do something... go to that thing and get those things that do whatever on the boat." After some interrogation (disguised as making sure she was certain) I went over to West Marine and availed myself of the Lewmat buy-one-get-one winch sale. I have 4 new EVO Sport winches on the way (2 #6 and 2 #8). Those are essentially what we have now just ... new and working (and a lot more unnecessary complications).

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:10 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:34 am In other news, The Boss walked into my office and said "I think we should do something... go to that thing and get those things that do whatever on the boat." After some interrogation (disguised as making sure she was certain) I went over to West Marine and availed myself of the Lewmat buy-one-get-one winch sale. I have 4 new EVO Sport winches on the way (2 #6 and 2 #8). Those are essentially what we have now just ... new and working (and a lot more unnecessary complications).

BLING!

That's pretty sweet, big one off the checklist!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:20 am
by Jaysen
Jeff, still interested in what you have. Might make sense to rotate the new one forward to mast/cabin top. We did the “bare minimum” for sizing. It it wasn’t for the sale I’d only have picked up 1 of each.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:24 pm
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:46 am Per the dock aster 4kn current and 10mph wind (no sail deployed because I’m not completely stupid but jib rolled on furler). Motor is the stand Yammy 6 with stock prod (7” 8p?).

Based on all our fun we have few things that encourage me to expand my plan.
1. Jack plate installed port side. Makes motor controls super awkward.
2. Pushpit, backstay, solar, vhf all make tilt a PITA let alone plate change.
3. All the above make manual start damn near impossible.
4. With 20” motor in plate, the cab plate of under water until my oversized self gowns forward. Then it isn’t. I’m thinking I need to look at a 25”.
Don't they make a tip down and in thingamajig? I might have one sitting here.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:00 pm
by Fuzz
If you were bucking into 4 knots of current and some wind that might be as good as it gets. I do not thing 10 hp would have made much difference. Some times the best motor at the time is an anchor that holds :wink:

I guess you could always put foils on that thing :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:32 pm
by Jaysen
She should be able to move in those conditions. There is a question about if the motor was low enough to get bite. Not sure if that’s a factor. I’m starting to see a problem of tilting the motor if I lower the “high point”.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:46 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:32 pm She should be able to move in those conditions.
Simple math: With a hull speed of 6.1kts, going uphill in 4kts, you should be able to make 2.1 kts. In my boat, a decent head wind will not keep me from motoring at hull speed, though waves certainly can. The ability to maintain bite in a short waves is def one of the advantages of an inboard.

The winches are yours if you want them, btw, regardless of whatever other jewelry you happen to come by. They are just taking up space in my rental cottage. I'll ping you when they are in hand.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:06 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks VT. Let me know your preferred shipper and I’ll arrange a label for you.

I’m wondering if I need an XL shaft to get the motor lower and well below the hull. I thought about lowering the “false transom” but then the motor cowling will hit the actual transom if I tip up the motor at rest. Still need to figure all this out. Hard to do with exactly 0 shops that can provide swaps for testing.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:11 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:06 pm the motor cowling will hit the actual transom if I tip up the motor at rest.
I'd look for a bracket that will raise/lower the motor without needing to tilt it. My precision motor didn't need to tilt, nor did the kicker on my Grady, both had brackets like this:

https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/marinet ... lsrc=aw.ds

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:18 pm
by Jaysen
I have a manual bracket. It goes up and down. But with the long I think the prop would hit on a starboard tack if there is any swell. I like the little bit of extra clearance the tilt would give. I may need to look at a “better” bracket that has a longer swing.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:37 pm
by Fuzz
Prop not being deep enough to get a good bite could have been your problem. I have seen it on other boats. Last summer I towed a boat in, their kicker was losing bite on every wave and they were going no where. I am sure 6hp is enough to reach hull speed if the prop is working as it should.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:43 pm
by Jaysen
The math says that it should be. Let me see if I can work another test.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:46 pm
by VT_Jeff
Fuzz wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:37 pm Prop not being deep enough to get a good bite could have been your problem. I have seen it on other boats. Last summer I towed a boat in, their kicker was losing bite on every wave and they were going no where. I am sure 6hp is enough to reach hull speed if the prop is working as it should.
So there I was...........Grady 19. My 115 ran out of 2 smoke oil and I had to come in on the 3.5 kicker(borrowed from my dingy for just such occasions) in pretty good, short waves. Prop was in the water probably 30% of the time. Had to steer the kicker manually, hanging over the transom. Probably only 3-4 miles, but I was green enough to make sure I never ran out of oil again. Turns out there was more than enough oil in the internal reservoir even though the external tank was about dry. NOOB! Sold that boat, used way too much gas for a blow-boater!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:38 pm
by Jaysen
Found a diver to do the first scrape. Sounds like a gravel dump down there. I won’t be surprised if he comes up and says “bottom job imminent”.


Remember that the more affordable the boat is, the more it will cost.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:59 pm
by Jaysen
Per diver, I should have had an oyster roast. Apparently the hull was never scraped below “eyeball” of the waterline. The ablative paint is likely shot but he was surprised how easy it all came off. When I mentioned the 6hp trial he said “with what you had below... look for a 25. Try it again now that you are clean.”

I’ll still likely go with a 9 if the 6 moves her next test.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:12 pm
by Fuzz
The 8hp and above are twins so they run a lot smoother. They also cost a bunch more and are a lot heavier. With a clean bottom I bet a 6 will be all you need. The lighter motor will let you have a lighter bracket and be much easier to move around.
With all that said I am still waiting to hear somebody complain they have too much hp.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:22 pm
by Jaysen
The other advantage is bigger alternator. There’s a big advantage to 10a at 15hp over 5a at 6hp. Given an expect 5ah draw for night sailing, that’s one hour runtime for 2hr of post sunset activities.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:52 pm
by Fuzz
You are old enough post sunset activities should probably occur in the dark :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:41 am
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:52 pm You are old enough post sunset activities should probably occur in the dark :lol:
Preferable for most folks. But I’m not the decision maker in this house.

Reality is that someone “not Jaysen” has a problem with the dark. So until sleep has started a certain level of light and fan is required. Add the incessant use of varied devices and I may do more solo sailing than I currently plan. I would also challenge you to wedge yourself into the V berth of a 24’ boat in the dark.

Reality is that I expect sub 10mah draw (anchor light and interior reds) but will need to recharge various devices (5a each) for about 30min. The recharge is the draw.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:27 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:41 am
Fuzz wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:52 pm You are old enough post sunset activities should probably occur in the dark :lol:
Preferable for most folks. But I’m not the decision maker in this house.

Reality is that someone “not Jaysen” has a problem with the dark. So until sleep has started a certain level of light and fan is required. Add the incessant use of varied devices and I may do more solo sailing than I currently plan. I would also challenge you to wedge yourself into the V berth of a 24’ boat in the dark.

Reality is that I expect sub 10mah draw (anchor light and interior reds) but will need to recharge various devices (5a each) for about 30min. The recharge is the draw.
I often bring a jump pack back and forth, charge it at the cottage, and use it to power my laptop, phone charger etc as much as possible. Saves me from freewheeling the diesel to keep the battery topped off.

I use stick on LEDs for interior lighting. You can hoist an led anchor light and not touch your house batteries, though I have not actually tried that.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:41 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:27 am
Jaysen wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:41 am Reality is that I expect sub 10mah draw (anchor light and interior reds) but will need to recharge various devices (5a each) for about 30min. The recharge is the draw.
I often bring a jump pack back and forth, charge it at the cottage, and use it to power my laptop, phone charger etc as much as possible. Saves me from freewheeling the diesel to keep the battery topped off.

I use stick on LEDs for interior lighting. You can hoist an led anchor light and not touch your house batteries, though I have not actually tried that.
I have 2x75AH marine batts on board. Add that everything is prewired to use them and it doesn't make sense for me to avoid using the house. I only expect to need to run motor for charging if we are out more than a 5d. Keep in mind that for us we will need to motor a bit to get in/out of anchorage as 90% of the time it will be up a creek somewhere. I also take to the philosophy that if you need power you're doing it wrong for most things.

I wonder what the alternator output is on one of those 115s were may need to "group buy".

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:17 am
by Jaysen
The first set of winches have arrived. Lewmar EVO Sport size 6. They are really small when there is not a 24' boat attached to them.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to the stupid question I'm about to ask but I thought I'd get some feedback. 4200 or 5200 for bedding them?

I like 4200 as I expect these will come off more than once for various reasons. But I'm guessing everyone will say 5200 is needed because FORKING WINCHES NEED TO STAY PUT!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:25 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:41 am
I wonder what the alternator output is on one of those 115s were may need to "group buy".
I'm guessing somewhere between plenty and a !@#$load.

I do need to answer a question on my skiff in this regard: can I run my 20hp without a battery or will that damage the alternator. I am planning a small starting battery but am curious if I have the option to go lightweight or not. Something I need to research.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:27 am
by terrulian
4200 for the winches. You aren't holding them in with the sealant....I hope.
It sounds like you have the electrical understood pretty well, but if it was me, I would wait until you get a clean bottom, when I think the engine will be much more to your liking, and then do as Jeff does or add a couple of solar panels. A new outboard is a lot of money for stuff that used to just take a gas lamp. Plenty of battery and charging, I would think off the top of my head, for LEDs.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:14 am
by Jaysen
There are 316ss bolts clamping the deck between winch base and backing plates (not sure what I'm using for that yet). I'm going to need to drill new holes as the mounting patterns have changed from 4 3/8" bolts to 5 1/4" bolts. I was looking to use 4200 to gasket the holes and prevent water ingress.

We are all over the place on motors. Watched a C27 pull up 2 fingers over in full tidal flow and adverse wind (wind matching tide) using 6hp. I'm really struggling to accept that I need a 9+ to move this small boat. I hear everyone on the batt consumption. I'm sure I'm overthinking it. Mrs and I are going to plan a few nights on the dock to measure draw. Seems like the easiest way to prove it all out.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:19 pm
by terrulian
You could get a battery monitor but they're sort of pricey. Before I did that, I'd do what you suggest, spend a typical weekend on the boat, or whatever you feel the duration of an average trip will be, take a voltmeter and monitor the charge every so often. As to solar panels, you can get very inexpensive ones that you can stow away and then plug in while at anchor. I also had some kind of light-sensitive switch that would cut off the anchor light at dawn. Or how about this thing: https://store.marinebeam.com/dusk-to-da ... ight-bulb/

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:25 pm
by Jaysen
No pics. Boring crap.

Electrical: figured out I had 2 bad switches and one bad fuse holder. Switches replaced. Also found out that the power to anchor light is working. Can’t find power for spreader lights even working around bad fuse holder. Solution will be lantern on halyard for both. May leverage the 12v for anchor light to power it. May just ignore it.

Pulled main sail. That’s was an experience. Especially when the wasps got all pissy about me pulling the car through the boom track. I have thumbs. They have met their marker. I did not escape unscathed. Too much wind for single hand pull jib for the first time. If the main is any indicator it will not be effortless.

In general the running and standing rigging seems to be solid. A bit of it is confused as PO didn’t have a clue. I’m slowly putting it all back. May need to enlist the help of others for a few things we didn’t have on the J.

Now it’s time for some gently rocking nap time. Hard to resist it with bright blue sky and 75f.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:49 pm
by Jeff
Nice work Jaysen!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:39 pm
by terrulian
I'll try to check in to see about the rigging. I like that stuff.
Spreader lights are cool but only for real emergencies. Otherwise, you just lose your night vision.
Keep us apprised of progress. :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:43 pm
by Jaysen
Today was “primary engine maintenance day”. I was shocked how easily it was to get the jib off the furler. I was more surprised to discover both sails are original sails (built by Helms or Helms official suppliers). That may nit seem like a big deal, but it is. I have the EXACT measurements of the sails so getting new sails made will be much simpler.

8267

8268

8269

Tomorrow will be something else but no matter plans yet.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:56 pm
by Jeff
Cool Jaysen!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:46 pm
by terrulian
Always a bit of silicone in the track while re-hoisting.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:22 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:46 pm Always a bit of silicone in the track while re-hoisting.
Funny thing... two tracks on the furler. That seems odd to me.

We used the spray silicone on the J. But we did the whole on/off every sail. Same stuff for sails being left on?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:47 pm
by Jaysen
Today is “secondary motor acquisition day”.

I have acquired a 2004 Mercury 9.9 long. Verified running. Heading north to Maryland Monday/Tuesday with installation on Lil Bit More Thursday/Friday.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:24 pm
by cape man
Whooo Hoooo!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:53 pm
by terrulian
Not that unusual to have two tracks. Possible uses: quick headsail change, or twin headsails for running.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:11 pm
by VT_Jeff
My furler has 2 tracks also. I can hoist a new sail before lowering the working one. Done it 0 times.

My suspicion would be that a sail maker would work from the boat/rig dimensions and not sail measurements, I'll be interested to know which is the case.

Good news on the new motor, just dont overfill the oil like some total morons on this board have been known to do.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:15 pm
by Jaysen
The problem with raise before lower is that the upper drum rides the track down. There’s really no way to use the second track without lowering the current sail.

I like the idea of wings for running. Seems a tad bit easier than a proper spin (which I have).

Triple check the evap can and input manifold. I bet you are filled up and aren’t venting the case.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:36 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:15 pm The problem with raise before lower is that the upper drum rides the track down. There’s really no way to use the second track without lowering the current sail.

I like the idea of wings for running. Seems a tad bit easier than a proper spin (which I have).

Triple check the evap can and input manifold. I bet you are filled up and aren’t venting the case.

Interesting on the upper drum. I need to get back on my boat before I open my mouth again.

I think you may be on to something on the oil question, I got a similar response on thumpertalk, going to run that down. Appreciate it!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:46 pm
by terrulian
It hurts nothing to hoist a single headsail on an extrusion with two slots.
We ran double poled-out headsails off the wind: one was the genoa on a furler, and the other was a light nylon 125 with a wire luff that we hoisted behind the headstay and just shackled to a fitting on the deck. This system was amazingly adjustable and versatile.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:16 am
by Jaysen
We haven’t run sails back up yet. Cover for main needs repaired. No starboard winch for jib. Although I may “make it work” Saturday and run the sails up because ...

I’ll be running from Savannah to DC over the next 48hr to retrieve the motor! I’ve heard it run via net and sounds ok. Going to give it a go over tomorrow AM before loading it. Guy says we can put it on a dinghy. He runs a store that sells parts off of boats that are DOA so I’ll look for a few other things at discount prices while I’m there. Bonus that he is providing me a 30d return if the motor doesn’t work. It’s a bit of a drive but still cheaper than I can get a used one local.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:39 pm
by Jeff
Drive safe Jaysen!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:00 pm
by Jaysen
Ok. 1200mi round trip, 2d of cleaning and troubleshooting and some hairy moments of the Mrs not being sure the motor wasn’t going for a deep swim. Now we have a 9.9 2st pushing her around. Hoping to get full off the dock with pictures in the next couple day.

Until then I’m back to dreaming about sailing the open water.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:20 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:00 pm Ok. 1200mi round trip, 2d of cleaning and troubleshooting and some hairy moments of the Mrs not being sure the motor wasn’t going for a deep swim. Now we have a 9.9 2st pushing her around. Hoping to get full off the dock with pictures in the next couple day.

Until then I’m back to dreaming about sailing the open water.
Another big step in the right direction. Sailing is 90% boredom and 10% terror. You'll be bored/terrified in no time at all!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:19 pm
by Jaysen
Wait. There’s supposed to be boredom? I only recall fear, terror and projectile vomiting. Not typically in that order.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:06 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:19 pm Wait. There’s supposed to be boredom? I only recall fear, terror and projectile vomiting. Not typically in that order.
Mmmmmm, you may be doing it wrongly. Try much, much less canvas and report back.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:59 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:06 pm
Jaysen wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:19 pm Wait. There’s supposed to be boredom? I only recall fear, terror and projectile vomiting. Not typically in that order.
Mmmmmm, you may be doing it wrongly. Try much, much less canvas and report back.
I don’t know if I can do that! I mean the sails are still in the bags!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:30 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:59 pm
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:06 pm
Jaysen wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:19 pm Wait. There’s supposed to be boredom? I only recall fear, terror and projectile vomiting. Not typically in that order.
Mmmmmm, you may be doing it wrongly. Try much, much less canvas and report back.
I don’t know if I can do that! I mean the sails are still in the bags!

Hmmm. I'd say try staying at the dock but you've got that wired already.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:29 pm
by Fuzz
I seem to recall he don't like semi cool water with a few baby lumps :P

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 am
by VT_Jeff
Fuzz wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:29 pm I seem to recall he don't like semi cool water with a few baby lumps :P
:lol:

Those FL types are accustomed to sailing in postcard conditions. Must be rough! I mean Flat!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:51 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 am
Fuzz wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:29 pm I seem to recall he don't like semi cool water with a few baby lumps :P
:lol:

Those FL types are accustomed to sailing in postcard conditions. Must be rough! I mean Flat!
1. Fuzz’s idea of semi cold is forking cold cold.

2. Baby lumps don’t make the boat next to you vanish.

That said, I prefer bath water temps with a 15kn wind with a 1’ sea. I won’t lie. If I can’t have that I’ll take 25kn and 12’ seas. No room to compromise on the temp though.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:57 am
by fallguy1000
Oh, god. You can have 12 footers. I cut out at about 10 footers, and even then find little pleasure. I won't go out if the waves are over 5.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:12 am
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:57 am Oh, god. You can have 12 footers. I cut out at about 10 footers, and even then find little pleasure. I won't go out if the waves are over 5.
There’s a story behind that.

When I was first racing J30 I did ok on calm water but still greened a bit. We had an overnight from Charleston to Hilton Head that was predicted calm. When we turned the jetty we were confronted with 25kn and 12’ seas. I held my pie hole closed and touched out a couple hours until dark. All the hard core crew members were below deck puking. Three of us were green but functional. Eventually I knew I was done and asked the captain “where do you want the dead weight?” He looked at me funny so I repeated the “rules”
1. Puke over the side
2. Aim for distance.
3. Stay out of the way.

He pointed stern and windward. I grabbed three sail ties, sat my ass on the rail and repeated the rules as I tied myself head outward to the rail.

Next morning they commented that
1. Jaysen makes a great backrest.
2. Even when I can’t stand up I can still trim, reef and steer.
3. No one else ever yelled “this is great!” with more enthusiasm while puking up breakfast from three days ago.

I’m always sick offshore the first day. Never had a problem the second day. Never had a third to to see how that turns out.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:03 am
by fallguy1000
I was out in 10 footers on a really big boat and about 1:3rd of the pax were hurlin. I was on the bow spotting gray whales blowin.

There was one guy up there with me. He was mad that I said we weren't gonna boat a fish. The captain drove all day and stopped about 2 times. What a waste that trip was...an hour of rockfishing would have at least made it worth it.

When we departed that guy glared at me the entire time. Like it was my fault for calling it.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:29 pm
by Fuzz
There are ten footers and then there are ten footers. 10 in deep water is no big deal but 10 in shallow is a whole different animal. Same goes for boats. 10 in a 12 foot boat and 10 in a 50 foot boat is two totally different deals.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:28 am
by fallguy1000
Fuzz wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:29 pm There are ten footers and then there are ten footers. 10 in deep water is no big deal but 10 in shallow is a whole different animal. Same goes for boats. 10 in a 12 foot boat and 10 in a 50 foot boat is two totally different deals.
Yup. For sure. I was on 80x20 and about 1/3rd of pax went down in 10 footers. It felt like a roller coaster ride to me.

I was in 6 footers in a 16 footer with a wine hangover and laid on the deck in pure misery. Fell asleep and woke up feeling fine.

I was worried Jaysen was planning to set sail under 12' wave conditions in this 24 footer and wondered if he had one too many rums.

'A wise man once said a smooth sea never made a skilled sailor. '

If you are ever bored, read Richard Woods helicopter rescue story and loss of his Eclipse.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:29 am
by Jaysen
I wouldn’t do it on purpose but I would do it.

I’m not that smart!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:34 am
by VT_Jeff
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:28 am I was in 6 footers in a 16 footer with a wine hangover and laid on the deck in pure misery. Fell asleep and woke up feeling fine.
Laying on the deck of a 16 footer is misery already, never mind the wine hangover and 6 footers.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:04 pm
by fallguy1000
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:34 am
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:28 am I was in 6 footers in a 16 footer with a wine hangover and laid on the deck in pure misery. Fell asleep and woke up feeling fine.
Laying on the deck of a 16 footer is misery already, never mind the wine hangover and 6 footers.
Not to steal from this great thread, but I was nearly in a fetal position. It was a memorable day and went up to Skookimchuk Narrows, harvested oysters, caught some rockfish, saw orange and purple starfish...hung out with my bride.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:40 pm
by VT_Jeff
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:04 pm
Not to steal from this great thread, but I was nearly in a fetal position.
Yes, just by simple math!

fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:04 pm It was a memorable day and went up to Skookimchuk Narrows, harvested oysters, caught some rockfish, saw orange and purple starfish...hung out with my bride.
Wait, did someone say Skook? Have you met my bride?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ8tP8FmKDM

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:00 pm
by VT_Jeff
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:04 pm
Not to steal from this great thread.....
I like to think of it more as "Party at Jaysens today, he's buyin!"

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:56 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:00 pm
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:04 pm
Not to steal from this great thread.....
I like to think of it more as "Party at Jaysens today, he's buyin!"
Yep. I’m good with that.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:28 pm
by fallguy1000
Straight up Jeff...is that your wife in the Skook rapids?

That is so cool.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:44 pm
by VT_Jeff
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:28 pm Straight up Jeff...is that your wife in the Skook rapids?

That is so cool.
Indeed! We've done a few trips there, it's the holy grail of whitewater play boating. Incredible spot there, the sechelt inlet. Hoping to get back there one of these days once Canada gets opened back up.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:44 am
by Fuzz
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:44 pm
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:28 pm Straight up Jeff...is that your wife in the Skook rapids?

That is so cool.
Indeed! We've done a few trips there, it's the holy grail of whitewater play boating. Incredible spot there, the sechelt inlet. Hoping to get back there one of these days once Canada gets opened back up.
That is great! Your wife has talent!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:45 am
by VT_Jeff
Fuzz wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:44 am
That is great! Your wife has talent!
Yeah, great cook too, literally. Shes the queen of cool and I'm a shameless promoter, admittedly. Shes competed all over the us, CN and eu in freestyle and squirt and once in downriver, though not great results in that discipline.

But her new passion is fly-fishing. Wasting no time at that either. But shes a great motivation for my boatbuilding: shes chomping at the bit to catch fish from the skiff!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:54 pm
by Jaysen
Disappointing day.

Decided high slack was ideal time to “spin” her in the dock. Had the dock master and extra hand for dock assist. Mrs sitting on bow to inspire success (and handle bow lines). Motor fired up and ready to go.

Twist her into reverse and at idle she starts to move. At a good clip even. As we clear the helms 27 next to us she starts going hard to starboard. I can’t up the motor and push tiller to starboard (boat not motor tiller). Boat moves faster but keeps going in the starboard line. At this point I’ve cleared my finger and have drifted into the next slip over. I wind her up and we move faster ... to starboard. At this point I’m three fingers over and running out of room and out of slack tide. I push tiller hard starboard on both boat and Moyer to no avail. I twist the throttle hard to forward to try to get some forward motion leaving boat tiller hard starboard but motor tiller dead ahead. Boat responds by moving forward but continuing to drift starboard. At this point I’m over two fingers and fending myself off a bowsprit of a 40’ trawler. The dock master is holding me off of a finger midship. She moving forward, I’m holding tiller over with a knee and the dock hand is running to board the h27. As he grabs my bow I kill the motor and we all start laughing as realize the problem ... we forgot about the abnormal cross wind out of the south.

Basically with the hard south wind I stood no chance of getting out of there until I was facing into the wind. I probably would have made it if I used the h27 as mid ship pivoting on my way out to get her stern dead to the wind. Problem then would have been getting back to the dock.

Even without sails up we still have a huge wind profile that I forgot to account for. Bad Jaysen. Bad!

Plus side... no damage to any boat AND she’s now sleeping hindquarters in.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:44 pm
by Fuzz
The only way to not have a sh*t show at the dock is to never use your boat. If you use the boat it is going to happen to you at some point. Anyone who says other wise is full of beans. The worst butthead move I ever made was just a couple years ago and with my Seasport. And that boat should be about the easiest thing I have to control.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:23 pm
by Jaysen
I was just glad I used “excessive caution” and requested to dock hands. The dock master actually commented that it was much better than he expected since that boat hasn’t moved “in a couple years”. Seeing as it was the first time I’d sat at the helm of this boat untied I’m trying to give myself a pass.

That said, I’m developing a plan to assist with testing. Basically moving her forward on an outbound tide with lines still tied to dock should give me adequate room to get some better idea of how she handles.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:12 pm
by Fuzz
No help with boat handling under sail but maybe a little with power.
Take the boat out to a wide open area and try tons of different stuff. See how she reacts. Throw a buoy or fender over and try to back up to it, come along side, both sides. Learn how she backs and what it takes to make it go where you want it to.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:43 am
by fallguy1000
I am not sure what you have there for engine and gears, but if you had the ability to spin the motor in any direction, would it have helped? My little kicker is the horrid 2.5hp Yamaha, but offers 360 degree turning. Horrid motor. Carb is always fouling. Reminds me to get it out and see if it'll go tomorrow.

Also, a good article for you. I wouldn't be too hard on self. Super slow is part of the trouble and stern walk is complicated. I'm guessing you ran rudder up? But I think rudder needs to be used. Mrs. may need to help in close work as well.

I'll shut up now.

https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/walking-the-prop

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:47 am
by fallguy1000
Sorry. Reread and I see you were trying to use the rudder. I do think you had some arse walk adding. Good luck.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:00 am
by Jaysen
Stern walk is a thing. This was so severe that, if it is the actual cause I’ll never be able to back the boat. At one point I did attempt to compensate with motor thrust via rotation but ... no good.

I’m going to run motor to full throttle tied up to see if the motor bogs before reaching rev limiter. It might be possible that I could go bigger on the prop and fit a bit more bite. I can also carb swap up to a 15hp. :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:47 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:00 am Stern walk is a thing. This was so severe that, if it is the actual cause I’ll never be able to back the boat. At one point I did attempt to compensate with motor thrust via rotation but ... no good.

I’m going to run motor to full throttle tied up to see if the motor bogs before reaching rev limiter. It might be possible that I could go bigger on the prop and fit a bit more bite. I can also carb swap up to a 15hp. :D

My boat has wicked prop walk in reverse, has led to more than one embarrassing situation. My strategy is this: use minimum thrust to get some way on in reverse with the rudder centered, and only then try to steer, keep thrust to absolute minimum amount to maintain some way on. Thrust against the rudder has weird effects. Also, get the motor shaft as vertically as possible, as prop walk itself is caused by shaft angle.

I very rarely dock my boat, it lives on a mooring. Each time I do it's a gripper.

All part of the excitement.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:21 am
by Jaysen
Part of the clue to the wind profile being my “forgotten factor” was that as soon as idled the motor the drift increased. As soon as I can figure out if I can safely navigate the fingers (I’ll get a photo today) I’ll be executing fuzz’s handling plan. It was part of what new crew did on the J30. I’ve planned to do it, but it is tough to do tied to the dock.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:44 am
by Jeff
Crazy Jaysen!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:08 pm
by Jaysen
DC4C08A7-0A99-442A-8901-A7E0C9CB24EA.jpeg
This is my path out as seen from the bow. Note that the current runs in/out parallel to my boat. I have to account for tidal drift the second i untie.

Also realized during today’s “our boat is yellow not grey” session (aka scrub the boat) that the motor tiller jambs on the pushpits! This means that the entire time I thought I was motor tiller starboard I was actually slightly to port. That goes a long way to explaining everything in my mind.

Trying to schedule dock support for next week.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:36 pm
by Jeff
Beautiful view Jaysen!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:49 pm
by Fuzz
Looks like you have a lot of room to work with. With an outboard you should be able to get in and out of there with no fuss. I know most folks will tell you go slow but as far as I am concerned all that does is make it harder. When I first started running a single inboard I went real slow and was forever getting all messed up. My old mentor told me that the gear shift and throttle are there to be used. After learning that life got much easier. For me running a 40 foot single inboard is easier than a 20 foot outboard.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:46 am
by Jaysen
The 40' tour boat indicates that it's only about 60' between the fingers. Over 30' needs a bow thruster. Typically you don't rotate the motor to steer these guys. Gets all kind of squirrely with that 5' long board right next to the motor :) I've seen systems that tie the tillers together to address the rudder interfering with the prop but I'm trying to keep it simple.

I think the "go fast" part is going to be key. Watching others go out yesterday had me thinking of drag races. Only the bow thruster boats seem to take their time. But then they are abusing that poor bow thruster.

My anchor line arrives today. Now that I have brakes on board we plan to get off the dock this week. At a minimum, we will just practice maneuvers to get a feel for how she handles. I know I'm being paranoid, but I'd prefer not to use that pricy insurance :)

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:35 pm
by Jaysen
8347
My brakes have arrived!

300’ of 3/8” with thimbles each end. Way more than I need “today” but once we start going out to the big we will need it. For now it means we are good to leave the dock as we can execute emergency stop.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:57 pm
by glossieblack
Happy birthday Jaysen. :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:25 am
by Jaysen
Thanks GB. Spent the weekend and first section of this week with my son as he prepares for an extended overseas duty station. It was nice to get to see him for a week, but we are pretty glad he is back to the base. I guess we have adapted to the empty nest.

Started pulling winches off today. I will not show pictures as it is depressing how long it took to remove 4 bolts.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:19 pm
by Jaysen
8400

Bwahahahahaha!

It was a terrifying adventure. Screw-driver chiseled the base/posts out of the 4200 bedding. Only ate 1 screwdriver. The actual chisels are a lost cause. Only needed the sledge 2x. I’m lucky I decided to replace all the working winches as we have the following casualties:
2 bent posts
3 retaining screws broken in posts
1 retaining screw cross threaded
2 bases cracked
1 drum cracked

Basically none of the winches were any good. Better to find out this way than when a high load smashes one to pieces.

Friday I hope to drill and test mount all the new ones. I still need to fill the old holes but that will need to wait a day or two after drilling. You’re asking “why is he stupid?”

It turns out they never filled the voids between the cabin liner and the cabin top. This hits 3 of my 4 winches. I’m not going to try to clear all the 4200 out of the old holes as it will act as a dam so I can inject some thickened epoxy in around my new holes. Once that’s dried I’ll drill the old holes up a size and then fill them. That should give me a lot more strength than the existing core ... air.

Anyone see my problems with my crazy plan?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 1:58 pm
by Jaysen
Holes drilled
Old holes filled
4200 slathered
Bases fit and bedded!

8426
8427
8428
8429

Heading to BBC Friday to get “stuff”. But she could leave the dock today (if the weather was better).

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:23 pm
by Jeff
Look forward to seeing you on Friday afternoon!!! I hope you can get her out today!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:41 pm
by Jaysen
Winds I bit high for “first time moving” her. She has a big fat wind profile and I want to make sure I know how she handles a bit before jeopardizing my neighbor’s boats.

Friday should be fun. Can’t wait to meet y’all in person.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:44 pm
by cape man
FORT PIERCE FLORIDA - ALERT! ALERT! ALERT! LOCK UP YOUR ANIMALS AND KEEP YOUR WOMEN AND CHILDREN INDOORS! JAYSEN IS COMING THIS FRIDAY!!!!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:00 pm
by VT_Jeff
Nice work Jayson, sounds like it was a bear, way to power & hammer through it!

Small thing but something I'd put on my list, if it were me, is to find a different cleat setup. The angle coming off the winch is nearly vertical and they seem like they could give a person a pretty good poke in the back/side/face if you let your guard down. IMO, a plain horn cleat mounted on the top of the side deck would be preferable. That said, I'm sure they will work for you as-is.
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (798.17 KiB) Viewed 1664 times

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:48 pm
by Jaysen
VT Jeff,

The angle is exaggerated in the photo. You are 100% on the back stabbing. I have proof. My hope is that those winches you’re looking to unload are self tailing or I will be moving the cam cleats and winches aft to allow easier single handing. The cleats would mount on risers addressing mounted on at 50% drum height angled to tiller.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:49 pm
by Jaysen
cape man wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:44 pm FORT PIERCE FLORIDA - ALERT! ALERT! ALERT! LOCK UP YOUR ANIMALS AND KEEP YOUR WOMEN AND CHILDREN INDOORS! JAYSEN IS COMING THIS FRIDAY!!!!
Jaysen will be escorted by his primary handler who shall ensure adequate weighted skillets are on hand.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 6:44 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:48 pm VT Jeff,

The angle is exaggerated in the photo. You are 100% on the back stabbing. I have proof. My hope is that those winches you’re looking to unload are self tailing or I will be moving the cam cleats and winches aft to allow easier single handing. The cleats would mount on risers addressing mounted on at 50% drum height angled to tiller.

My winches are self-tailing, as in you need to tail them your self.

:lol:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 7:25 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:44 pm
Jaysen wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:48 pm VT Jeff,

The angle is exaggerated in the photo. You are 100% on the back stabbing. I have proof. My hope is that those winches you’re looking to unload are self tailing or I will be moving the cam cleats and winches aft to allow easier single handing. The cleats would mount on risers addressing mounted on at 50% drum height angled to tiller.
My winches are self-tailing, as in you need to tail them your self.

:lol:
Ha! It took a while to explain that to the Mrs without me giggling.

I actually prefer manual tailing. Problem is that I expect a significant amount of single handing without automatic steering. Self tailing kind of becomes important. My take is going to be using those blue rings that emulate self tailing. I have a few to test with.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:09 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:25 pm I actually prefer manual tailing. Problem is that I expect a significant amount of single handing without automatic steering. Self tailing kind of becomes important. My take is going to be using those blue rings that emulate self tailing. I have a few to test with.
I'll be interested in your feedback on those blue rings when you get there. I single-hand nearly exclusively and I don't think I have longed for self-tailers too much. The way the cleats work on the C&C is pretty clever and makes it pretty easy. Beating upwind in a narrow channel is the toughest challenge sheeting/winching-wise, that's when you really need 3-4 hands. I've found that(yes, I know you know how to sail, probably a lot more competently than me, but I'm the one typing, I have the conch!) if you can get the new working sheet all the way in and wrapped before the jib fills on the new tack, it's pretty effortless: you don't need to tail because you don't need to winch, it's already all the way in. Admittedly this means you really need to keep some way-on throughout the turn to ensure that sheeting tight on the new tack will actually be effective: if you lose too much speed then you're going to need to reach a little deeper initially, which then means winching, which then means tailing, which then means you need 3-4 hands again. Of course, 50% of the time the jib sheet will hang on some damned thing mid-tack; the open bow hatch, a stanchion, the chute pole, a paddleboard, or a spouse/sibling/niece/nephew/pet, and the whole thing goes to !@#$ in a hurry and threatens to upend your gin/tonic, but that's why I sail around in circles in Henderson Harbor and am not rounding the horn. Got to know your limits!

If you don't already have one, get a tiller-tamer. My boat is wheel and I swear I have the wheel lock on 90% of the time.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:16 am
by VT_Jeff
Here's a typical picture of me "sailing" in Lake Ontario. Bow full of crap, doing 6+ knots nearly straight into the wind with just the main out. Something tells me there's a diesel clicking away somewhere out of frame......

Been a long winter, I'm jonesing to get back on the water!
20160817_130344.jpg

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:11 pm
by Jaysen
Let’s remember one thing... I refuse to use common sense. I expect to be smashing (notice the proceeding word) though waves with sails that should have been reefed a while back. Because common sense isn’t fashionable these days!!!

Seriously though...

The issue really comes home under the circumstances you describe but with a bit more weather. I really will sail in a storm (planned to learn) and that’s where I worry about not having self tailing. I was spoiled on the J30 as I could just slam the winch handle and make progress.

Mrs has declared the boat “sailable”. Apparently I need to get all excess tooling moved off so I can take her on a trip. Dates TBD.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:25 pm
by narfi
Jaysen wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:11 pm Dates TBD.
call me old fashioned, or maybe practical.... but you should probably only consider her....

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:51 pm
by Jaysen
narfi wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:25 pm
Jaysen wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:11 pm Dates TBD.
call me old fashioned, or maybe practical.... but you should probably only consider her....
Valid position to take. She may be the one suggesting “you may need to find someone as stupid as you are for this”

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:00 pm
by TomW1
Ah Jaysen going from a J30 to a Helms24 is a big step down. The Helms will never handle the weather the J30 could and it sounds like you are being foolish in thinking it can. I don't know how much experience you have, but stalling during a jibe is dangerous especially in a channel with boats all around. There were only 750 built so not a popular boat. With 1885lbs of ballast she should keep you out of trouble. But don't push her. Reef the jib and main when you encounter nasty weather. She has a nice interior for cruising. May you and your wife enjoy her.

Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:30 pm
by Jaysen
Tom, a lot of that is me poking myself in the eye. I tend to take educated risks for learning/gaining experience but tend to be overly cautious otherwise. The J30 solidified my love of sailing in the middle of a “blow”. I have no expectations that the H24 will handle or perform as well. The H24 is a coastal camper for the Mrs and myself to decide how much we want to make cruising a part of our long term plans.

The problem is that the Mrs isn’t really capable of “helping” once the sailing gets sporting. I have to be able to manage the boat 100% solo. I’m very confident that I can. I just need to prove it.

A few things on the safety front that are already in place or are being added:
1. Roller furler jib for easy sail reduction.
2. 2 deep reefs on main. New main will have 3.
3. Boat has storm/try sail for “why the heck are we out here?”
4. New washboards will have “capture” for lower board to add height to companion way entrance reducing opportunities for water down the companionway.
5. Full jack lines with dedicated tie points from bow to transom.
6. EPIRB required before we pass the end of channel (lots of interior sailing to do before that)

It may not seem like much but it is more than most of the ocean racers had on board.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 5:53 pm
by TomW1
That is great sounds like you have a plan. Take a few sails and learn your limits with her. I think 20kts of wind will be as much as your wife :lol: will want to deal with but time will tell. :D Enjoy her when you finish her.

Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 2:45 pm
by terrulian
Jaysen,
I've had your page up on my computer for a long time but for some reason the site isn't updating...so now I have to go back to page 19 to see what you're up to. More after that...sorry.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 3:45 pm
by terrulian
OK, I'm back, and it's time to butt in!

As to getting out of your slip, I think the main problem was handling, or mis-handling, the tiller on the engine, which should be very effective. With that, you can counteract any prop-walk, which should not bother you in a boat where the prop is not fixed. Small boats with outboards are much more maneuverable than inboards.

Jeff said,
Beating upwind in a narrow channel is the toughest challenge sheeting/winching-wise, that's when you really need 3-4 hands. I've found that(yes, I know you know how to sail, probably a lot more competently than me, but I'm the one typing, I have the conch!) if you can get the new working sheet all the way in and wrapped before the jib fills on the new tack, it's pretty effortless: you don't need to tail because you don't need to winch, it's already all the way in. Admittedly this means you really need to keep some way-on throughout the turn to ensure that sheeting tight on the new tack will actually be effective: if you lose too much speed then you're going to need to reach a little deeper initially, which then means winching, which then means tailing, which then means you need 3-4 hands again. Of course, 50% of the time the jib sheet will hang on some damned thing mid-tack; the open bow hatch, a stanchion, the chute pole, a paddleboard, or a spouse/sibling/niece/nephew/pet, and the whole thing goes to !@#$ in a hurry and threatens to upend your gin/tonic, but that's why I sail around in circles in Henderson Harbor and am not rounding the horn. Got to know your limits!
Single-handed with non-tailing winches, do what he says but on the tack you probably won't get the jib sheet tight enough. Stabilize yourself on the new tack and then pinch up for a second with the sheet in your hand. When the jib luffs, haul it in. Like a man. You don't need no stinking winch handle.

As to those cam cleats for the jib sheets: Lose them. A hazard if you fall into them. The reason this was probably done was that if you mount the cam cleat on the coaming, it will be hard to lower the sheet enough to get it between the jaws. Two better ways to address this are: mount a block aft of the winch that holds the cam cleat at a proper angle, or use a horn cleat as Jeff suggests. You don't have to do a proper cleat hitch on every tack; just two wraps will do it and in fact, I would recommend never putting a cleat hitch on a sheet.

As to the storm jib or trysail: What the hell, man? Two deep reefs for the main and get yourself a headsail with a furler. Headsails meant to be reefed have a foam luff which will make for a better shape when they are wound up a bit. If you have the money, get a 100% and about a 135%, both with foam luffs. Do you really want to go forward when the wind is "freshening," as the old-timers euphemistically say? No.

Speaking of going forward, I suggest running the reefing lines aft for the main. I didn't do this in my big boat for several reasons, although a lot of sailors prefer lines run aft especially on blue water boats. I don't want to go into it, but I prefer not to. However, on a small boat that you will be single-handing, you're going to have a hell of a time going forward to reef if you have no self-steering. Even with lines run aft it is a bit of a circus getting it done in a blow, but hey, you could stay home and watch Netflix.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:11 pm
by terrulian
One more thing: In regard to jacklines: Do you have a dodger on that boat? Whether you do or not, here's my recommendation:
1) In the cockpit, one line down the center, beginning so you can clip in before leaving the companionway, and ending aft at a point where, if you are tethered in, you can reach the lower gudgeon but not any farther.
2) From forward of the cockpit, one on each side run from the nearest stanchion, so you can clip in before leaving the cockpit. These go to the mast only.
3) From there, one from the mast forward to the stem. Now, people will object that this requires unclipping. That is so, but you have the mast to hold onto. If it makes you nervous, get a double tether with two clips.

Most people run their lines from just forward of the cockpit to the bow, but think how close you are to the rail. If you go over on the low side and no one's with you, you're done. With a line going to the mast, the only place you'll be very vulnerable is right at the bow, and there's no workaround for that. See above regarding Netflix.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:08 pm
by Jaysen
Tony,

I know I can count on you for a switch kick to adz when needed.

Cam-cleats need to stay for now. And by “for now” I mean until I finish installing new tank, complete the winch backing plates, address yet more wiring issues and build new washboards and retaining components (the trim that holds them on). When I do replace the cams I’m likely to just move them from this brackets to the “combing” aft of the winches. I need to try a few things first.

Boat currently has roller furler and 110 jib has line luff. A “practice unfurl” at the dock was done and I’m happy with the shape at various positions. Winds were light (5kn) so that and we may change with real wind. Main sail reefing is a fecalfest. I need to sort it out around the lazy jacks. Planning to do that when I can get the sail up on the first sail.

No dodger or bimney on this gal. My jack line plan was to go from the aft cleats (6” forward of transom) forward to the bow cleats. This would give me a continuous, free run the length of the boat. I see the point of central in cockpit. My tethers are long enough I could probably just run from an anchor at the companionway to the mast (15’ tether when stretched). The only reason to be forward of the mast is anchor or “oh crap” with the furler/jib. I guess launch/retrieve on spinnaker would be a reason in good weather.

My plan for singlehanding right now is a more “1.25 handing”. Mrs WILL be available for tiller duty when we are inshore and things are smoothish. If it gets too lumpy for her motor goes down. In the open I’ll be using jib sheet based self steering. I have the blocks on the tow rail to accommodate. These positions together should make the need for self tailing all about convenience until we move up in the program or boat size.

Much of this is subject to change on Wednesday. Specifically this Wednesday. That’s our target to untie and spread the canvas.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:34 am
by terrulian
OK, keep us updated. :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:14 am
by Jaysen
Cold front is expected tomorrow. Looks like Wednesday is out for first trip.

See? I can use common sense! It’s just not fun.

Not sure if I’ll get anything worth noting completed. Need to take care of some job hunting stuff that I’ve put off a bit. I do have one big thing that is easy that I’ll try to get done ASAP.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:53 am
by Jaysen
Good news bad news.

We have a short weather window (3hr) this morning to get some off the dock time in.

Mrs told me to hike up my skirt and get her out on the water. No idea if we will get photos/vids as I don’t like buying phones due to sending them into the deep.

Here goes.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:09 pm
by Jaysen
Success!

https://youtu.be/HpNCyH0wIic

We didn't get sails up due to weather moving in. We did get all the maneuvering done. I also managed to get her 75% docked under power. That means backing into our slip.

Now that 75% part deserves some explanation. The motor decided to cough and sputter after about 30min of puttering around out on the harbor. It kept running right up until we entered the super tight "peg a boat then backup" maneuver. Then she died. In reverse. Luckily I was expecting things to go wrong and was able to manually push her in the right direction (much to the surprise of the crowd gathered to see a boat actually move) and get lines to the dockhands. There was much ado about "calm action" as the Mrs and I made a great team fending off hazards like it was our favorite pastime activity (it isn't).

We did find that we can backup just fine if ...
1. all backsides aft and port.
2. lower RPM as once she cavs/aerates it's just a waste.
3. motor rotation helps once you get #1 and #2 down.

So... 9.9 is adequate to move the boat. Motor needs someone smarter to figure out the sputter and die. Weight distribution is the key for us at this point and eliminates the need for a new lifting bracket.

All in all a win!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:15 pm
by Jeff
Nice Jaysen, Congratulations!!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:53 pm
by narfi
Very nice!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:08 pm
by Fuzz
How did you survive in the horrible weather :doh:

You need a couple knots of current and 15 knots of wind running crossways to each other to really have some harbour fun :lol: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:17 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:08 pm How did you survive in the horrible weather :doh:

You need a couple knots of current and 15 knots of wind running crossways to each other to really have some harbour fun :lol: :lol:
That’s next week. This week is all about “see, she moves!?!?!!!” Next week is all about “fork fork fork fork what have I gotten into?”

Friday is 15kn ENE which allows me to stay east side of channel for light winds and dip my toe into bigger wind if we want. Getting off/on dock will be a bit more spirited as we won’t be slack like we were today. If all goes well we should be full canvas and a couple miles before we call it a day. We do plan to make a couple tacks and gybes in the harbor before going down river.

Should be fun!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:45 am
by VT_Jeff
Awesome Sauce Jaysen!

My moneys on clogged carb/fuel filter on the sputtering. I got my DRZ back after paying way too much for basically a carb rebuild, but it's running like brand new. VROOM.

More video would be great, btw, esp on your sails-up jaunt.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 1:38 am
by terrulian
First of all, congrats! A calm day is a fine beginning.

Since the motor was running fine for awhile, make sure the water is streaming out of the cooling system. Of course the carb/fuel supply should be looked at; but overheating can warp the head. Which you don't want.

Try to put tension on those jib sheets. A common problem in a gale is jibs coming unfurled and beating themselves to death. This can also cause the boat to heel and foul the rig on another boat. Sounds unlikely, but only when the weather's calm. In a gale, it isn't. I would actually stow them as you use them, run back through the cars to winches and cleated tight. Then the wrap is pulling in the proper direction to secure the sail, rather than pulling down on the clew.

Keep us posted! :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 6:53 am
by Jaysen
We had good water flow the whole time. I’m pretty sure the issue is either carb or fuel supply related. Service manual is on the way.

On the jib sheets… I’m actually thinking of using a line from the clew to the mast ring for storage. Then I would stow the sheets below. I hate leaving new line out in the sun. I already have snap shackles for the attaching to cleats while Mrs learns knots 😁

My only concern with this plan is the possibility of the line being in the way when motoring. Not sure that’s a real problem though.

Today should be a “sails out day”. We have favorable weather to let us try out how she sails in the vicinity of the marina. If all goes well we may take a couple mile cruise. I’m betting just a few loops in the harbor.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:33 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, I hope you guys have a great day sailing!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 11:47 am
by terrulian
With hanked-on headsails, the jib is stowed in a bag either at the base of the headstay or below. The sheets are left in the bag or removed. I personally wouldn't worry about sheets deteriorating in the sun, as ours, which were nothing fancy, just Sta-Set, lasted for the entire circumnavigation and weren't new when we left. (The reason they lasted so long was that I went to the expense and trouble of carrying enough brand-new running rigging to replace anything I'd need, all the way around. :?) On the other hand, I approve of getting practice tying two bowlines at the clew before each sail. Another way to attach them is with one lark's head, also called a cow hitch. This way you don't cut the line, and it is slightly less mass than two bowlines to take your eye out. I would not recommend the shackle on the clew, although you said the shackle was on a cleat, which I also don't quite follow. You don't want a piece of metal flailing around the deck on every tack in a blow, especially if you have to go forward.
Image

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 2:25 pm
by Jaysen
Valid point Tony. I’ll have to rethink my plan. My desire to remove the sheets may be waning.

The idea of a separate securing line for the furled jib is that the snap shackle will be on a static line. The shackle will attach the the clew. The other end will be bowlined to the whisker pole ring on the mast. Jib is furled with not making sheets off dock. Back on dock unfurled enough to swap the sheets for the shackled line then furled tight. This will secure the jib on the dock.

Today’s sail was a success. More on that once I get the video off the camera. Let me just suggest that the weather was a bit more spirited than expected so just ran with full jib. More in a bit.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 3:53 pm
by VT_Jeff
terrulian wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:47 am I would not recommend the shackle on the clew
Agreed on that 100%, it's a weapon enough with the bowlines on there!

Jaysen, I'd be more concerned with your furled jib's leech/foot than with the sheets, UV-wise. I think I did not see a UV cover sewn on that, true?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 4:39 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:53 pm
terrulian wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:47 am I would not recommend the shackle on the clew
Agreed on that 100%, it's a weapon enough with the bowlines on there!

Jaysen, I'd be more concerned with your furled jib's leech/foot than with the sheets, UV-wise. I think I did not see a UV cover sewn on that, true?
Ok ok ok. No shackle on jib sheets!

You are correct. The hank on was converted to furler. When I replace the jib winter/next year I’ll have a proper UV strip sewn in. This jib isn’t long for the working world. May opt to go back to yanked but it sure was nice to just winder it up today…

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:01 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:39 pm When I replace the jib winter/next year I’ll have a proper UV strip sewn in. This jib isn’t long for the working world.
I may have covered this already but I bought some fabric and used my mother-in-laws 50 year old sears sewing machine and added a UV strip to my quite old jib. Ain't pretty, but it works and saved me at least a grand for a few years.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:18 pm
by Jaysen
1. I KNOW the cart is not in the correct location for the jib. It was fixed on the dock.
2. I also KNOW the jib trim would get me kicked off every boat ever floated on the salty water.
3. I do KNOW that main would have been a nicer balance, but I discovered that I only have one usable reef leaving 90% of main up when reefed.
4. Tony would be impressed to KNOW that with winds steady at 15 gusting to 25 I only flew the sail I knew I could get down without leaving my inexperienced wife in holding a tiller wondering what to do with it.

My wife was less than helpful with her video. I have about 15min of the back of the dog's head. This is the only actual video of us sailing.
https://youtu.be/zKAuhfgyi7w

My initial impressions...
  • Good god she's fast! I had 6kn on my GPS with just the jib. Max heel was 15° but that was in a gust. She hardens up at 10° and hauls adz at 12°
  • This boat is much more nimble under sail than motor. I think it has to do with the motor offset and location relative to the rudder.
  • She's very forgiving of everything but missing the end of the chains on a tack. I kept getting backwinded with just the jib up because I missed the actual wind direction (we were in the shadow of that bridge and a point of land).
  • While the halyards and sheets are trimmed to the minimum, there is way too much crap underfoot in the cockpit. I may need to move the main halyard up to the mast.
  • The stupid winches are in the wrong stupid location for where the sheet car needs to go. The gib that is on there now (100) needs the carts to go 3 feet behind the winches. I can't imagine how a 120 or 150 would work... use the spin blocks?
  • She backs up wonderfully now that we understand how she works. The trick is to get all the weight on the port side to get about 5° port heel and back she goes. The better answer is a longer throw on the lifter, but that requires money (which requires job).

    All in all I'm very happy with today. Next trip out will be mainsail only so I can get used to tack, gybe, points of sail to wind and helm. If that goes as well as today we may wind up with full canvas out to see what she will do fully spread.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:24 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:01 pm
Jaysen wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:39 pm When I replace the jib winter/next year I’ll have a proper UV strip sewn in. This jib isn’t long for the working world.
I may have covered this already but I bought some fabric and used my mother-in-laws 50 year old sears sewing machine and added a UV strip to my quite old jib. Ain't pretty, but it works and saved me at least a grand for a few years.
1. Mrs is currently forbidding me from touching her sewing stuff. Long story short... she hates asking me to load the bobbins for her. Don't ask.
2. The jib is pretty close to "dead on the stay" already. Very thin with a lot of mini-holes starting to show. Especially at the head where the algae is really stubborn.
3. Based on the cart problem I think I need to lower the foot to get proper sail shape. This one feels very "Yankee cut" to me. The clew is about 4' off the deck vs the 6-12" I'm used to seeing. This furthers my opinion that this sail may not be long for this boat...

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:18 pm
by Jeff
Congrats Jaysen!!! Looks like a really good day!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:45 pm
by VT_Jeff
If you're hitting 6kt with just the jib then you are stoked! Interested in how she'll point under jib alone. The fact that you are finding her fast and nimble is really great news, you seemed sure she'd be a pig.

That luffing upper leech is nothing but a fisherman's reef, great technique to avoid too much heel. Well done.

10-4 on the disposable jib, got to know when to cut losses and not lipstick the pig.

Excited for you, keep the updates coming!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:28 pm
by TomW1
Nice report Jaysen. Sounds like you had some fun. :D

Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 10:09 pm
by terrulian
Big fun, my man.
BTW, I think you mean the jib "cars" not "carts" unless there's a local variation.
I'd love to see a photo or two of the layout of the tracks for the jib cars and their relation to the winches. It is possible, I suppose, that the previous owner had everything set up ass-backwards, but maybe there was method to his madness. I love sorting out running rigging stuff. This time in boat ownership is probably my favorite, when everything's new and you're dialing it in.
Not sure about the wrinkle at the tack of the jib, but I suspect you're right, it's the location of the cars. A lot of this is just messing around with your boat and seeing how you'd like everything set up. There are no absolutes but maybe we can save you some time and help you avoid the worst of it.

Yes, I think we understand now that you weren't planning on using shackles except when stowing the jib; nothing wrong with that.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 12:06 pm
by Jaysen
My phone hates me. Should be “cars”. Only took 5 time to get the one in quotes correct.

Here are pics of the rail and car on port. Starboard is the same.
8455

8456

The more I sit and pretend to sail today, the more I think the winch placement is wrong for single/short hand sailing. Seems to me that they need to move aft about 24” to allow manipulation from tiller.

The existing car position would work with a lower foot. Later in the sail yesterday I was able to get a much better shape everywhere except the foot. The foot was always poorly shaped. No tension on it at all. My experience is that then you can’t get the foot tight move the car back. When you can’t get the leech tight move car forward. I have plenty of space to move the car but now I’m loading the winch backwards (in my mind).

I’m also thinking that I could just drop a second set of winches aft of the existing ones and make this boat a true frankenboat.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 12:15 pm
by cape man
Great stuff Jaysen! Keep posting.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 2:43 pm
by Jaysen
I’m going to start my new washboards and trim. I’m using 1/2” meranti. I’ve my measurements based on current configuration.

My plan is to create a basic lofting on the sheet of ply and cut the trim base layer and washboards as one piece. I’ll separate the washboards via 45deg angled cut. That will ensure that water is moved to the outside of the boards.

The sad part is that I have to do this with a jig saw. I’m wondering how much gap I should build in to accommodate environmental change of the wood. The saw kerf is 1/16 making 1/8. From that I’ll need to account for epoxy and topcoat. I’m less worried about the washboard/washboard junction but the edge to trim.

Will be adding spacers between the trim backing and the cabin bulkhead for drainage and to prevent binding.

I don’t think plywood moved much on any axis but would like some confirmation from those more experienced.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 5:10 pm
by Jaysen
If y’all recall I made a trip to get some supplies from BBC. Jeff tossed some cardboard in the trailer and I held onto it. That was a smart thing as I grabbed a piece to practice lifting from my measurements. I’ll cut it out. A bit later to test fit tomorrow.
8458

After our little sail yesterday Mrs may have suggested we consider a look at Piacere as if we need to sell the house (equity would cover asking). I sure hope she’s joking.

This is Piacere
8457

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 8:11 am
by fallguy1000
I have zero faith in plywood edges exposed. You can hate me, but I would wrap the edges in 6 oz cloth. I bought some roseburg marine ply for a lid in my skiff. No epoxy, no nothin and about three years in, the edges are all delamed and when they get wet, they puff like a balloon.

I can't imagine the horror of your final product swelling on edges and being unable to function.

This is perhaps not the help you want, but a big caution. If you cover and encapsulate them, you only need to worry about cte.

Cte is about 3.4x10-6

3.4x10^-6 = (change in dim/orig dim )/change in temp

Say 70 degrees build, 110 degree operating max
Say 24" width

40•3.4x10^-6•24 = 0.003"

Wet wood is just gonna fail to function, so you'll need to close the plywood ends or it'll fail. In order to do the 45s, you'd build each one square and radius the ends to wrap them, then add back your overhang/underhang with bog.

Traditional boards use varnish to keep out the moisture and to keep the function.

..my 2 cents

Your method will be more work, but can be a better product done well.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 8:44 am
by Jaysen
Plan is to epoxy seal then paint or clear coat or varnish. I’m ok with short life span as these should be short term.

I’m avoiding glass as it requires more clearance planning.

I thought about using a 45 camfer bit on the edges but that will eat 1.5” of ply. I only have about 1” extra from this sheet (rest of sheet is bulkhead and “litter bucket” and structure for fuel tank).

I guess I could make the washboards out of just 2 pieces instead of 3 which would make the camfer bit work…

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:19 am
by fallguy1000
The sun loves to bake the edges. And there is the trouble. Maybe if you get enough epoxy on the edges; you'll be okay.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:27 am
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:19 am The sun loves to bake the edges. And there is the trouble. Maybe if you get enough epoxy on the edges; you'll be okay.
Great point. I will need to do something on the trim/retainer edges. In this case the washboard edges are by the trim/retainer pieces. When not in position they are stored below. The lower board will be in place during offshore runs but that will be much later so I'll have time to adjust.

I think Cape Man has some fancy ply edges on one of his builds. I wonder how he protected it.

I appreciate the feedback. I'm off to check the fit of my cardboard template and take a nap in a berth. Still need to decide which one. So many to choose from!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:55 am
by terrulian
Piacere is a Hans Christian? Beautiful boats. Not too fast but who cares if you're cruising. Lotta brightwork. You have to have the money to buy and also the money to hire a little man from the village for varnishing.

In regard to the winch placement: Without being there it's a little hard to say. My first guess is that the main issue is those cam cleats. If you had a horn cleat a bit farther back, or a cam cleat with the right position and on a tapered block, the winch location is OK. Self-tailers would be cool, though. As to having two winches on each side, that's fine. Better to have too many winches than too few.

Why do you have to use a saber saw for those cuts? Even if you do, it should be relatively easy to plane them square. The companionway boards don't have to fit super precisely. As long as you have the angle as you describe, they won't leak. You certainly don't want them too tight for all kinds of reasons. I guess you've already got the wood but I can't recalling seeing plywood companionway boards for the reasons already mentioned.

I'll look in later. Gotta go teach. I'm so damn old I get bushed after a day of screaming at people. Actually, I don't scream. But I do get tired. :roll:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:59 am
by fallguy1000
So, off topic.. On the other forum I enjoy.

I can @capeman, for example and he gets a notice his name was called. Can that happen here?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 10:34 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:55 am Piacere is a Hans Christian? Beautiful boats. Not too fast but who cares if you're cruising. Lotta brightwork. You have to have the money to buy and also the money to hire a little man from the village for varnishing.
Yes. Colleen is actually good at finishing. Most of the brightwork is in need of attention but the wood is good. The current owners were in last weekend and over the course of one box of wine they did about 30% of the forward deck. Considering that we would be free of "home" maintenance I would hope we could cover the bright ourselves.
terrulian wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:55 am My first guess is that the main issue is those cam cleats.
My concern is the force on the deck more than the entrance to the cleats. Lewmar has little mounting data for the classics I purchased so I had to use the EVO (same sizes) directions. They indicate that the mounting needs to be "directionally aligned with the force applied". I don't know if that's because of the self-tailing aspect needing to avoid too many wraps or because... bigger. I mounted the hole pattern to match the EVO directional assuming the cars would be forward of the winch. I may need to open a support query with Lewmar.
terrulian wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:55 am Why do you have to use a saber saw for those cuts?
Because it's that or a hand saw or buy a new circular saw. Given the lack of income we are only dropping $$ on things we have to have. Some would ask "then why are you spending any $$ on the boat?" My answer would be "because we can live on a tiny 24' boat if we have too." Not ideal, but something the Mrs is super concerned about. I'm picking up a dockhand job to provide a couple bucks while cutting our dockage way down.
terrulian wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:59 am I guess you've already got the wood but I can't recalling seeing plywood companionway boards for the reasons already mentioned.
Iv'e looked around. There are a number of ply washboards in our marinas. Cheap wood or unmaintained... terrible. The ones built with real ply and maintained seem to be pretty bulletproof. That said, if I get 3yr out of these we will be happy. In any event boards that fit right and don't leak are the need right now.
fallguy1000 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:59 am So, off topic.. On the other forum I enjoy.

I can @capeman, for example and he gets a notice his name was called. Can that happen here?
That's a current limitation of the current software. I've looked at extensions but the few that might add that feature have issues I don't want to burden Jeff or BBC with (data privacy concerns). You can "cheat" it by PM'ing the person or fake quoting via

Code: Select all

[quote=capeman][/quote]
That looks like this though...
fallguy1000 wrote:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:10 pm
by terrulian
My concern is the force on the deck more than the entrance to the cleats. Lewmar has little mounting data for the classics I purchased so I had to use the EVO (same sizes) directions. They indicate that the mounting needs to be "directionally aligned with the force applied". I don't know if that's because of the self-tailing aspect needing to avoid too many wraps or because... bigger. I mounted the hole pattern to match the EVO directional assuming the cars would be forward of the winch. I may need to open a support query with Lewmar.
Unless those coaming tops are made of 1/8" ply, a substantial backing plate (say 3/8" meranti) should make the pull on the winches bulletproof. It doesn't have to hold the force of a foresail sheet on a 70-footer.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 8:10 am
by pee wee
Jaysen wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:34 am [ There are a number of ply washboards in our marinas. Cheap wood or unmaintained... terrible. The ones built with real ply and maintained seem to be pretty bulletproof. That said, if I get 3yr out of these we will be happy. In any event boards that fit right and don't leak are the need right now.
How about edging the plywood pieces with strips of lumber?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:16 am
by fallguy1000
So, off topic.. On the other forum I enjoy.

I can @capeman, for example and he gets a notice his name was called. Can that happen here?

<-----stayed in buffer?

Lots of places are hiring people from afar now. My wife's company is in a bit of a tizzy trying to unravel work from home. She's not having it. Anyhow, my point is, you can probably work from the boat for quite a few companies now post Covid.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 11:42 am
by Jaysen
I’ve thought about a strip of veneer to seal the edge but Mrs keeps whispering “Piacere?”

I’m definitely in the remote space. The problem is more the level of roles that fit my background, my aged technical skill set and the rate folks want to pay. We are hoping to go full remote or limited office time. Most companies are preferring that in my field these days…

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 1:59 pm
by Jaysen
Well, today was a cluster fork.

Light winds so decided to take Mrs on a sail. Mainsail up but winds too light to make headway. With incoming tide we started to get near the swing bridge but had no rudder. Luckily I had the motor running but in idle. Reached back to twist tiller and she died. Figured we had a couple hundred yard so I tried to restart it. Mainsail still up but useless and the motor refused to start. Realizing that I was up shite creek and about 100yd from being dismasted by the bridge, I pulled the main halyard free and headed forward. The smartest move of the day was spraying the dogs with silicone lube. I literally poked the luff about 24” from the boom and the sail came flying down. The second smart move was loosing the anchor shackle and pulling a couple dozen yards of rode off my 300’ spool. The rate of drift was surprisingly fast by the time I had the anchor attached to the ride I was inside 50yd. Dropped the anchor and watched 20’ of rode go by before bottom was hit. Kept shelling out rhode hoping to get close to 7:1. Panicked at about 4:1 and cleated. Grabbed and slipped then grabbed and held. 40’ to the bridge.

Spent some time on anchor trying to figure it out. Motor would start but would die within seconds. Not enough wind to confidently sail off the pick. Mrs not confident she could be counted on for the needed maneuvering even if we could build wind power. I made the call to the marina and requested a “tow of shame”.

When the tow boat got on scene the Capt (also the dock master/future boss) gave a low whistle. “You all executed that emergency stop perfectly. I called the bridge when I realized the motor died. Figured we’d be pulling parts off the bridge. You wouldn’t have been the first”. He rafted up and towed us right back to the slip.

So ends my sailing until motor goes to a pro for adjustment. Until then I’m going to get on all the other things I need to do.

Where’s my rum?!?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 2:18 pm
by Jaysen
Here’s the gps track from my watch.

8473

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 2:56 pm
by fallguy1000
Dude. I need rum after that story.

Engine won't stay running...fuel problem. Pressure up the bulb to flood the engine.

If it did flood, which happens offen when you are in a time of high need, close the choke and open the throttle bore all the way to clear the flood.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:13 pm
by Fuzz
What happened to you is the reason I always run my kicker before leaving the harbour. Way too many folks seem to think the kicker will run, when you are in a bind,without starting and running it regularly.
Glad you kept it together and set the anchor. Glad it caught and held. Most problems can be solved or at least improved if folks keep their poop together.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:16 pm
by Jaysen
I’m pretty sure it isn’t fuel supply. My gut tells me it is carb issue (which is fuel supply technically). I’ve been fighting a mix issue. I think the problem is that once the motor gets hot the mix problem is insurmountable. Calling a pro at this point because it’s too critical a system for me to be guessing.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:20 pm
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:13 pm What happened to you is the reason I always run my kicker before leaving the harbour. Way too many folks seem to think the kicker will run, when you are in a bind,without starting and running it regularly.
Motor ran for 15min on the dock. 30 min cool down after. Yep an fine for about 45min until the fan and the stuff collided (without the bridge 😝). I think this is just a case of me missing some basic 2stroke maintenance/clean up. Not sure what as I’ve followed the manual 3x now.

Time for a pro.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:31 pm
by terrulian
Jaysen, great job handling this misadventure. :D Anchors are great safety gear.
Tell me again why you don't have the anchor on the bow ready to release?

I have rebuilt an outboard carb. Not that big of a deal. Nonetheless, I'm with you on the pro at this point. He'll probably run through everything and make you much more confident that it's there when you need it.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:34 pm
by Jeff
Great work Jaysen!!!!!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:55 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:31 pm Tell me again why you don't have the anchor on the bow ready to release?
The anchor and chain are hung on the bow pulpit. There is no anchor or chain locker (yet). Based on your advice I’ve not moved it aft and instead moved the rode forward to the V until I have more experience. To keep the deck clear the chain is looped on a stanchions. The rode is held on the hatch latch so it is easy to grab. The actual time to connect and deploy today was less than 30sec. I credit your advice, practice and advance preparation for that.

To Fuzz’s point, cool heads make issues easier to solve; cool heads come from practice and preparation. Thanks to the advice here and my j30 work, we have been complimented several times on keeping our cool.

Thank you all for keeping my wife safe.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:12 pm
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:16 pm I’m pretty sure it isn’t fuel supply. My gut tells me it is carb issue (which is fuel supply technically). I’ve been fighting a mix issue. I think the problem is that once the motor gets hot the mix problem is insurmountable. Calling a pro at this point because it’s too critical a system for me to be guessing.
If it starts now easily, it is flooding. Some two strokes are exceptional at doing it at the end of the run. I had one that did. Practice flooding it. Seriously. Learn how to flood it and to clear the flood. Probably the best thing I ever did as now when my lawn mowers have issues I have really got it down.

To flood it choke it too long. To clear the flood, open the throttle all the way. If open throttle bore floods it, then close it, but it should not. I had an old Merc 4 that I could only stop by flooding it with the choke.

I had a Merc years ago with gears and throttle combined. If you have one of them; you must get rid of it because those cannot clear a flood quickly.

Anyhow, I think you did a fine job with the mishap. Eating that bridge wudda, mighta had the crew considering early mutiny..

Post edit...I looked at your pictures and it appears you have the throttle and gears on the tiller. I cannot tell you how much I hate that design. I had one for two days. It flooded easily and I was not able to clear a flood quickly by opening the throttle bore because the shifter won't allow it. If you cannot go to WOT when starting; ditch the motor; it is a liability. I had an 86 Merc for two days with that design. I flooded it and spent 30 minutes trying to clear the fuel. Some engines have a propensity to flood and when they do; it is a must to clear the flood condition with wot. If you can open the throttle all the way and start in neutral; the design is different. Best regards.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:32 pm
by Jaysen
This one does is the "less favored" design. But I have a secret... remove the cover and pull the throttle up independently.

I don't think it is flooding. I actually think I'm too lean based on the "pop" that is happening over idle but below 3/4 throttle. All the research I've done says I'm lean which points to jet not mix (no pop in idle or over 3/4). At that point I'm going to have a pro do it. One of the symptoms that folks talk about with this exact model being lean is a hard fail followed by the short-run restart. She's not smoking or smelling like she does when she's rich/flooded (I've done that little exercise).

As to the mutiny, the crew was quiet at first. We sat there watching the bridge, making sure it "stayed over there", when the crew said "I knew you would keep us safe... I was never afraid." I think that one thing made the whole thing OK in my mind. She's already making calls to find a motor guy with some time for a little 2 stroke.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:57 pm
by fallguy1000
I would sell it. Flat out, no bull. I spent 30 minutes adrift one day, bloodied my hands with several blisters all because I couldn't go WOT for 3 friggin pulls. This is one of those ideal designs that is less than ideal.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 5:44 pm
by OrangeQuest
You can spend hours guessing what causes an engine not to run properly or not at all over a forum. Even in person tests need to be ran and verify that things are doing what they need to do. If the carb does not have removable jets and air bleeds then cleaning the carb is still just guess work and if it fixes it then it fixes it. It could be something as simple as there being a plugged air bleed on the fuel tank that is plugged, wasn't opened or there is a one way vent that is stuck.... Who knows!?

Jaysen seems to be smart enough to know enough about what makes the motor go and once it passed his bag of tricks he knows then again, smart thing to do is pass it off to someone more knowledgeable on what makes it tick. It was also quick thinking on his part to know when to stop tinkering with the motor and secure the boat. Very good call, very good call.

Love your mis-adventures Jaysen, I hope they continue to end with all coming home safely.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 6:24 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks OQ.

I figure I need to live up to my redneck heritage and provide as many “hold my beer and watch this!!” events as possible.

More seriously, how often do you see folks talk about the failures? These days it’s mostly about a perception of success and ease of accomplishment. Ugly reality is that there’s a lot of failure preceding every success. Maybe someone will see my mess, have a good laugh, then accept a failure in their own world.

As to the motor… I’m sure it’s something stupid simple. I just don’t want to buy a new motor one part at a time. I’m sure that 15min in the hands of an expert will I’d the real issue and fix it permanently.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 8:39 pm
by VT_Jeff
Was that a "Beware the lee shore" situation? Glad it worked out without an insurance claim!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:07 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:39 pm Was that a "Beware the lee shore" situation? Glad it worked out without an insurance claim!
100% current. The wind was out of the east at 3knt. Current out of the west at a number that was greater than the 3knt wind in the sails. My drift rate was 1.5knt east.

Now the interesting data is the heart rate info. You can definitely tell when things went sideways. Mine went from 85 to 170 really really fast.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:26 pm
by Jeff
Crazy Jaysen, now you are a true sailor!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:33 pm
by Jaysen
What is the technical name for the instrument control insert thing?

I need a new one. 😢
C0BFC975-40CC-4EA5-8585-247C58173804.jpeg
C0BFC975-40CC-4EA5-8585-247C58173804.jpeg (103.58 KiB) Viewed 1577 times

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:37 pm
by terrulian
Display? Readout?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:39 pm
by Jaysen
Its the fiberglass tray that holds engine instruments.

It will hold radio when I’m done. This one met its maker. Stupid 5200 doing 5200 things instead of giving up.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 3:23 pm
by VT_Jeff
Engine control panel.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 4:27 pm
by Jaysen
Nothing shows up but touch screens. You have a site that I can reference?

I just need the fiberglass shell. I’m not putting gauges back on there.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 7:49 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:27 pm Nothing shows up but touch screens. You have a site that I can reference?

I just need the fiberglass shell. I’m not putting gauges back on there.
https://discountmarinesource.com/store/ ... gKkoPD_BwE

Thats an example.

If you are not replacing the gauges then you can use a flat piece of plywood, sealed.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 8:21 pm
by Jaysen
Plan is radio and some switches (nav, anchor, etc). Was hoping to get the set back tub type thing but no cuts. Everything I’m finding assumes gauges.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 11:05 pm
by fallguy1000
diy :(

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:29 am
by Jaysen
Starting to look that way. Likely to end up a simple sheet of flat stock covering the hole with nothing in it. Not ideal to have things sticking into an area that tends to collect tails of working lines.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 7:41 am
by pee wee
Here's another boat owner looking for the same thing, with some suggestions:

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threa ... ks.194655/

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 7:49 am
by pee wee

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 8:35 am
by Jaysen
Th a is peewee. That’s close.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:59 am
by VT_Jeff
pee wee wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:49 am Perhaps more to your needs:

https://moyermarine.com/product/control ... ug_16_556/

Image
Great find! I moved my switches to my console but was originally going to put them on the back wall of the cockpit, this would have worked great as an enclosure for them.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 4:29 pm
by Jaysen
In completely unrelated, but due to having this boat, I am now employed as a seasonal dockhand at the marina. It appears that the qualifications for "experience" are pretty simple... know how not to run into a bridge. Accidentally wound up working an hour today. There appears to be an inverse relationship between the value of a boat and the tips to the dockhands. I'm not complaining (I wasn't expecting any tips) but it was an item of discussion in the dock house.

It is also interesting how many people really don't know how to manage the basic docking process. I couldn't imagine owning and insuring a multi-million dollar yacht and not have a clue how to properly cleat either end of a dock line.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 6:15 pm
by narfi
A clue is something you pay someone else to have!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 6:37 pm
by Jaysen
narfi wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 6:15 pm A clue is something you pay someone else to have!
Yes. Apparently they left that person at the last marina.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 7:05 pm
by cape man
Congratulations!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 8:01 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks. It's one of those things that just kind of fell into my lap.

I'm sitting on the boat and the dockmaster asks if I've retired. "Nah, just covid casualty". "Well, if you wouldn't consider it an insult, we need help. Everyone here likes you and you know your way around the boats." "Sure. The Mrs is tired of me sitting on the couch all day."

And that's that. Meanwhile, I've put in nearly 50 applications in my "professional field" and had exactly 2 interviews. I'll take the low stress, enjoyable atmosphere, and boat focused job for now.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 8:41 pm
by VT_Jeff
Confirms my fears that dock hands do notice and do report on my shitty docking skills.


:lol: :lol:

Glad to hear you found a good situation!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 9:13 am
by pee wee
narfi wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 6:15 pm A clue is something you pay someone else to have!
Nobody on a motorboat has a clew.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 10:57 am
by VT_Jeff
The genny asked the chute why he was so prone to broaching.

"I don't have a clew"

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 12:41 am
by fallguy1000
Once upon a time, a relative of mine took me sailing. We got to the edge of the lagoon under a spit of wind and it died to zero and I mean nothin.

So I proceeded to try and start the Jaysen (sorry). After 30 minutes of pullin, blisters, some cursin, I said I don'f know Hugh, but it seems like it ain't gettin a drop of gas. He said, well, I just fixed it last week. I said, oh? What's you do? He says, "I found a bolt with a hole in it and I went and got a solid bolt to make it stronger."

I said, "Hugh, that is how the gas flows to the carb!"

He say, oh? Hugh sits there a minute, looking really sad. We get towed in. There was wind on the lake. Lagoon had zero.

Back at dads, I drill a hole in his repair bolt. Thing fires on about the third pull.

Hugh says, "I bet you think I'm a real gashole".

Sorry for callin that non-starter a Jaysen. Won't happen again.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 2:14 am
by Fuzz
Many years ago my buddy Steve buys a 21 foot O'Day sloop. For his first trip we trailer up to Kenai lake. Kenai lake is like a ford in that it is 30 miles long and a mile or two wide. We sail all the way to lakes end and spend the night. The next morning there is not a breath of wind. Some of you old guys might remember Archmedes Penta outboards. Well Steve has one so we figure we will mount that and power back down the lake. Problem was there was no way to mount it :( We had one of those 6 foot boat looking plastic tubs that the outboard would fit on so we used the tub to tow the boat all the way back down the lake. We looked like two true rednecks but we made it back on our own. :lol: PS I am pretty sure that was the only time that piece of crap outboard ran 8O

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 6:46 am
by Jaysen
That hilarious. And I don’t mind. My name is associated with more than a few “that ain’t right” things.

We m going to pull the motor after work this week and start dissembling the carb. Nothing to loose really.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 9:17 am
by OrangeQuest
If you are pulling the carb apart yourself look for signs of water getting into the fuel system. You will see white or tarnished areas on metal surfaces inside the bowl, the edges of the jets and so on. Anywhere the fuel can settle. Fuel treatment additives will cause the water in the fuel to burn but the water will still stain the metal. Use strands of wire to clean build up in the air bleed jets and the fuel metering jets. Look for trash floating freely in the fuel system. If the motor has set up for awhile and the fuel in the carb drying up it could leave a dry film on everything and break up when the fuel starts to pass through and plug a jet so drain the bowls into something white, even a white paper towel will work, so you can look for floating trash. You are looking for a cause, find it! Don't just do stuff and hope it fixes it, that won't give you peace of mind.

Do not rule out the ignition side of the motor. Measure the resistance of the coils, both on the primary side and secondary. Check all grounds. If it uses points and condenser then measure them also and look for pitting of the contacts. Measure the gap of the points before you just adjust them. If it is a solid state system then find the specs and measure everything to make sure the primary side of the ignition system is in specs. Use your electronic background to decide if it just isn't to spec if nothing else. Remember it is a 12volt primary system. You stated it runs ok till it gets warm, electrical components could be getting warm and then act up. Look for salt build up around electrical connections, it can cause enough continuity to cause voltage fluctuation to short out the primary trigger of the ignition. Measure resistance of everything before unplugging anything. Find the cause!

Good luck.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 9:31 am
by Jaysen
Thanks!

The other thing I’m wondering is if the OLD fuel system/lines on the boat are part of the problem. I’ll be replacing all of it as I think the lines are degraded and possibly collapsing surging use.

No such thing as a cheap boat….

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 9:39 am
by fallguy1000
Fuzz wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:14 am Many years ago my buddy Steve buys a 21 foot O'Day sloop. For his first trip we trailer up to Kenai lake. Kenai lake is like a ford in that it is 30 miles long and a mile or two wide. We sail all the way to lakes end and spend the night. The next morning there is not a breath of wind. Some of you old guys might remember Archmedes Penta outboards. Well Steve has one so we figure we will mount that and power back down the lake. Problem was there was no way to mount it :( We had one of those 6 foot boat looking plastic tubs that the outboard would fit on so we used the tub to tow the boat all the way back down the lake. We looked like two true rednecks but we made it back on our own. :lol: PS I am pretty sure that was the only time that piece of crap outboard ran 8O
I hate to, but I have to.

Which guys were in the tub?

:lol:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 12:40 pm
by OrangeQuest
Jaysen wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 9:31 am Thanks!

The other thing I’m wondering is if the OLD fuel system/lines on the boat are part of the problem. I’ll be replacing all of it as I think the lines are degraded and possibly collapsing surging use.

No such thing as a cheap boat….
If you have a fuel bulb pump and can pressurize the fuel system when it is acting up then not likely. You can also squeeze the fuel lines in different places and if it feels like it is breaking up like squeezing a hard boil egg the line is no good. When you pull the float bowl off, inspect the needle and seat closely for a dented/worn ring where the needle meets the seat.. can cause the needle to hang up.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:26 pm
by Jaysen
Today was a much needed, simple, but very very important fix to the Helms.

We have a table!!

The table had been wood screwed to the piano hinge. As is normal, wood screw get pulled out when the table is abused. I opted to drill through the ply and use SS pan head bolts with cap nuts. I put a lock washer between the cap it and piano hinge. I probably should have put a washer under the pan head but wanted the heads to recess slightly to reduced the chance of catching things on the heads when the table is folded. The cap nuts are completely covered when table is folded and well out of the way when the table is deployed.

Anyway, here are the pics of the work and one of me post yawing the table for lunch.

The pan head switch table folded.
8517

Cap nuts at their most exposed.
8518

Table folded.
8519

Table deployed.
8520

Me after eating lunch comfortably.
8521

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:02 pm
by VT_Jeff
Critical indeed! Dining room, office, workbench, etc.

Interior looks pretty fresh!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:44 pm
by Fuzz
Dang dude! somebody held you down and scrubbed you up some :lol:
Your table is looking good. I am sure that is something that was needed. I have been working on a cockpit table for Steve's DownEastern 32. Did I mention I hate blow boats sometimes? Spent 5 days changing out a cuttless bearing. Ended up pulling the engine to get the shaft out so we could get to the cuttless. Real piece of quality engineering that is. That and having no space for two old fat guys made for some long days :cry:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:49 am
by Jeff
Nice work Jaysen!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:00 am
by piperdown
Fuzz wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:44 pm Dang dude! somebody held you down and scrubbed you up some :lol:
Your table is looking good. I am sure that is something that was needed. I have been working on a cockpit table for Steve's DownEastern 32. Did I mention I hate blow boats sometimes? Spent 5 days changing out a cuttless bearing. Ended up pulling the engine to get the shaft out so we could get to the cuttless. Real piece of quality engineering that is. That and having no space for two old fat guys made for some long days :cry:

I think he's channeling Judge Elihu Smails....... :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:13 am
by fallguy1000
The man is unrecognizable minus the hair.

..cia?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:52 pm
by Jaysen
Do you really want to hand a dock line to south end of a northbound grizzly? Most people don’t like the idea that the dockhand might chew through the line. There might be distinct temperature advantages to less hair but I can’t prove it.

I had one goal today… get backing plates on. Forking dumb donkey me can’t plan anything. Couldn’t locate my open tube of 4200. Couldn’t find the templates. Couldn’t find a charged battery. Couldn’t get nuts off three of the winches solo. I did get one fit but the plate isn’t sealed and the winch is not bedded. I will have water ingress.
8523

At least I had cold beer in the fridge at home.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:27 pm
by fallguy1000
My day did not go smashingly well either. It is 110F in the boat tent. So moved some work inside and spent most of the day trying to redo the helm riser/seat station.

I know the sentiment of mud becoming kwiksand

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:40 pm
by Jaysen
Today's exercise in futility...

Look for already open 4200 tube that multiple people remember you storing in 4 different locations... find nothing.
Attempt to remove carb from 9.9 while mounted on boat and drop nut in cowling. 1.5hr to recover.
Take carb home in a "sealed container" to discover that the container has a hole in the bottom allowing "carb juice" to get into the carpet of boss lady's Sequoia (I didn't have the guts to tell the boss lady it was gas).
Disassemble and reassemble carb to find one little needle thing left laying on the table.
Repeat but with an extra screw...
Repeat but short a screw...
Assemble properly but have not enough time to go back to boat to reinstall.

Current state... now out of beer. Someone hates me. I think it is me.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:03 pm
by Jeff
Crazy day Jaysen!!! I hope the weekend gets better for you!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:28 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:03 pm Crazy day Jaysen!!! I hope the weekend gets better for you!!! Jeff
Tomorrow starts a 6day/60hr stretch at "the office". 100+ small boats and PWC are in for the weekend and then I moved some days around to attend an "engagement party" for my daughter. I guess times are changes as in my day that was more of a "are two stripes bad" type thing.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:53 pm
by VT_Jeff
Oh man! Have I been there. Disassembling outboards over the water hoping dropped pieces dont find their way through a cowling drain, AND getting gas in the wifes car. My wife is a total sport, but gas or diesel fumes are over her line.

I'm outside the loop on the engagement party, is she getting hitched or signed up for a hitch?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:25 pm
by Jaysen
Getting hitched early next year. Mrs tells me it just an excuse to drink liquor. Works for me.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:48 am
by terrulian
8)

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:48 pm
by VT_Jeff
Winches be like:
20210630_154203.jpg
20210630_154058.jpg
20210630_154114.jpg
20210630_154131.jpg
20210630_154148.jpg
20210630_154226.jpg
Desirable?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:51 pm
by Jaysen
Those are some sweet #6 there! What did they come off of?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:08 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:51 pm Those are some sweet #6 there! What did they come off of?
Late 70's Leisure 22. Great little micro cruiser from england. Many/most are bilge-keelers, mine was a fin-keel with a bulb. Had in-mast main furling off a Rhodes 22. Trailerable, but not a trailer-sailor.
20210630_155716.jpg
Btw, this is the 68 century cheetah I never stop talking about, I had it for about 10 years, sold it a few years ago for lack of use.
20150811_142814.jpg

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:44 pm
by Jaysen
Bilge keelers are getting my attention of late. I have lots of places to sit a boat on an outgoing tide but find make me nervous. Bilgers win for that move.

Today was a semi bust. Put rebuilt rebuilt carb back on motor and no gas was squirting out the side. Motor ran 8min through adjustment and warmup. After 22min of simulated motoring (motor in gear so under load) the cough and die scenario returned.

Looks like I’m going to be finding a Mercury service center.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:51 pm
by Fuzz
Well that sucks! I hate any form of power I can not count on.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:18 am
by OrangeQuest
Jaysen wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 9:31 am

The other thing I’m wondering is if the OLD fuel system/lines on the boat are part of the problem. I’ll be replacing all of it as I think the lines are degraded and possibly collapsing surging use.
Have you done anything in this area yet? Does the fuel cap vent work?

22 minutes under load is more than enough time for the motor to reach normal operating temps. Water stream warm or to warm? Any of the electrical stuff on the motor getting warmer than they should?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:59 am
by Jaysen
I removed the fuel cap on restart attempts. No help.

I have not completed the new fuel system install. Since I have to save $$ for the wrench time I’ll be completing that next.

Stream is good and warm. It is thermostat motor so I know when the motor is warmed up. I don’t feel that the water was hotter at the end than the beginning.

Electronics all seem to be functioning. Nothing smoking it hotter than other parts. It is a two cylinder motor so I can compare ignition components.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:44 am
by OrangeQuest
Start with the basics: fuel, spark and air. Don't know what you have done to verify these 3 things so, can you answer these tests?

Quick tests will narrow down where to look. As soon as it stops working, pull the plugs and see if they are dry or wet? 20+ minutes of run time under load they should be dry. If they are wet then is it fuel or water? While the plugs are out measure spark output at the coil wires. Simple spark tester made from old plug and alligator clip will work. If the spark seems good at both coil wires then pull choke and notice the sound change when cranking and more gas smell from cyl. Make sure plug wires are not anywhere near. If the choke is a butterfly valve style, and there is a sound change, that tells you the motor is getting air when the choke is open. No increase in fuel smell out of spark plug holes tells you it is the fuel system that is causing the problem.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:06 pm
by Fuzz
I had a mid 80s 40hp Johnson that would do the same thing. Run like a top for 20-30 minutes and then run on one cylinder for a couple of minutes and then die. Damn thing left me drifting way too many times. After about ten trips to the dealer I gave up and bought a different brand outboard. I am sure it was electrical but the dealer could never fix the problem.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:40 pm
by Jaysen
Today was “cut plywood” day. The plan was to cut washboards and frames. They are cut, but it ain’t pretty.

Laying out the center and edge lines.
8726

Pattern fully laid out. Time to cut.
8727

All cut. The big mistakes I made were cutting the frame tops too narrow and not being able to cut the beveled edge straight.
8728

Tomorrow will be sanding, epoxy sealing/gluing and lil bit bottoms work.


And for those that wonder what other dumb things I do… painted bunting. Been trying to get him to sit still for a few months. Finally got him. Much better looking in person. Unlike me. Or Fuzz.
8729

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:14 pm
by fallguy1000
We don't get that bunting here in Mn, so good to see.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:56 pm
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:14 pm We don't get that bunting here in Mn, so good to see.
They are much prettier before children suck the life out of them. Mrs and I watched a pair of eastern blue birds raise two clutches (5 in each) a couple feet from our window. You could watch the colors fade and the feathers get rattier day by day. It made me feel a little better about how exhausted I felt (still feel) when it came to raising kids.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:39 pm
by Jaysen
It’s been a long, unproductive summer. Today a fun surprise arrived. I was a bit askance at first and then I noticed she shipping label…
4056D826-1F49-43F9-AC01-334C47D18DB8.jpeg
4056D826-1F49-43F9-AC01-334C47D18DB8.jpeg (61.09 KiB) Viewed 1657 times
After I finished laughing I opened the box and discovered …
F91D25F1-7CC4-49C8-8B3A-70003A270FBC.jpeg
F91D25F1-7CC4-49C8-8B3A-70003A270FBC.jpeg (105.47 KiB) Viewed 1657 times
Lil Bit More has some classic winches!

Thank you VT Jeff and Fuzz!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:53 pm
by Jeff
Nice VT Jeff & Fuzz!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:00 pm
by Fuzz
VT_Jeff wanted this to be a surprise. All I did was get him your address so he could ship them to you. I do think it was really nice of him to do this.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:48 pm
by Jeff
Yep, fully agree with Fuzz!!! I told VT Jeff that I could not release your personal info without your approval!!! He wanted to surprise you so he turned to Fuzz!!! VT Jeff understood and found a solution!!! All good guys, Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:07 pm
by Jaysen
It made my day. Mrs is happy too. She likes the bling factor. Going to be a couple days before I can get holes drilled. Those things take a lot more screws than the new plastic ones!

Thanks VT Jeff. I truly appreciate it.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:22 pm
by TomW1
Wow what a nice surprise. That is what I love most about this Forum. Doing the small things to help each other out. Congrats to all 3 of you and Jayson make good use of your gift.

Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:33 pm
by VT_Jeff
Hope you can use them! I love a good surprise and figured you would as well. Fuzz was complicit so he got ratted out on the "From" label. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Enjoy.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:59 pm
by terrulian
I couldn't find what kind of plywood you decided on for the companionway boards.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:36 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:59 pm I couldn't find what kind of plywood you decided on for the companionway boards.
1/2 meranti for now. Just need to keep the water on the outside. I have them cut but haven’t finished or installed thanks to life being a PITA.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:55 am
by terrulian
Very sorry to hear that. Hope it's nothing serious!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:49 am
by Jaysen
Starting to get "back on it" on the Helms too. Although I would say this weekend was less than positive.

Started off by heading to the boat for a "let's relax" between things on Saturday. Opened the companionway and found...
8993
24" of water above the cabin sole. This pic was after my initial "OH FORKITY FORK FORK" and getting the bilge pump working. Turns out these new-fangled pumps don't actually have a proper float switch but a "water sense" that is based on impeller resistance. Apparently, when crap gets into the exit hose it monkeys up the ability for the pump to detect water. took 3 pumps to figure out what was going on. Short answer is that gunk was getting hung up on a barb connector 12" after the pump. The current solution is a section of bug netting rubber-banded over the pump basket. Long term I need to get all the debris flushed into the bilge then cleaned out with a trash pump.

And before you ask how 24" of water got INTO the boat... I have gaping holes from the ongoing repairs. Can't really plug them up (I've tried) without impeding the repairs. Have help next couple of weekends to get enough progress to reduce the expected water collection to only a couple inches.

In the middle of working on the above, there was a "thump" up the dock. I walked up there to find...
8994
I tied it off to prevent anyone from getting holed, then tried to remove it. Required a line looped on the end and was able to "flip it" under the dock. turns out it was a 15' trunk. When folks saw it they were all "WTF ARE YOU DOING SETTING THAT LOOSE IN THE MARINA?!?!?" at which point I used a specific finger to indicate I had previously secured the boat killer to the dock. After wrestling it around several boats I managed to get it secured to a point that staff can remove it sometime today with the "crap boat" (mobile pump out). No way I was going to try to manually move that solo yesterday.

Very little positive progress, but at least no boats sank.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:26 am
by Jeff
Jaysen, That is just horrible news!!! I am really glad you found the water when you did!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:34 am
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:26 am Jaysen, That is just horrible news!!! I am really glad you found the water when you did!!!! Jeff
It is really my own fault though.
1. Didn't get the project completed in a timely manner (big cause is the fuel tank install has scuppers removed).
2. I didn't check the boat for 2 weeks.
3. Improper clean-up led to debris clogging the line.

I would like to say 'lesson learned' but I'm not the sharpest knife in the block :)

That said, we have a goal of getting tank install completed in the next week. The plan we finally settled on:
1. Glue and screw cleats under tank bracket to keep in place securely.
2. Glue and screw tank bracket to cleats.
3. Grind current bolt heads off.
4. Install tank.
5. Plumb

Somewhere between 4 and 5, I have to address some water ingress (I think it is winches) that will be covered by the fill hose. In theory, there's only about 10hr of work, but as we all know, that will turn into 80hr real fast.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:39 am
by Jeff
Yes, just get it done!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:15 pm
by fallguy1000
Reminds me of the time a prior friend asked me to look at his truck to see if I could figure out why it wouldn't start and I reached over and pulled off the positive leads by hand no wrenches at which point a hole says, 'what are you doing tearing apart my cables'. He got more verbage than middle finger.

For temp holes in boats, get some 6 mil plastic and keep a roll of butyl around. The butyl sux to remove later is all.

Glad she didn't sink.

Find a friend in the marina or two that can be coaxed with whiskey, beer, or qpq to check on your boat now n then.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:40 pm
by Jaysen
FG, the stupid is … I work at the marina. Not full time anymore but I literally walked by the boat 4 times and never looked in. 100% stupid on my part.

The hole are there because I’ve removed drainage points (scuppers) and panels to get the tank in. I can’t really plug them or the cockpit fills with water. This hasn’t been a problem as the pump drains the bilge very effectively until the hose is plugged.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:27 pm
by Jaysen
Well…

My motor is due to be back in a couple days. Kind of hard to use said motor of boat is a forked up disaster. So got to work.

These are the new washboards. Not pretty as I just wanted to get them done. Need to add a spacer because… I beveled the edges to get the water to the outside even if the water is on the inside. This is just an epoxy rough coat. Sanding and painting will be done eventually. The gap on the right is due to the lower edge needing to be “adjusted”
9015

Moved the battery tender to be near the batteries. Rewired some crap. Found some things I don’t like and need to change. Only shocked myself once. Free advice… pay attention to the ground buss when reattaching positive. No damage a beer couldn’t fix.
9016

As dumb as it sounds it’s hard to find replacement knobs for old vhf radios. Found some and fixed one of the most annoying things.
9017

Started back in the tank. I will admit to engaging the B. F. H. and getting no where. Broke out the grinder and cut everything that wasn’t going to be in the boat next week out. Washed it down a bit.
9018

Set up the tank “kind of where it goes” but need to put some supports to keep it where it is supposed to be. It will be a bit higher and further back. Once that’s in the portable will be a thing of the past.
9019

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:44 pm
by fallguy1000
526B1A8E-9B1B-405D-B7D0-9F10D1491D5F.jpeg
526B1A8E-9B1B-405D-B7D0-9F10D1491D5F.jpeg (333.51 KiB) Viewed 1590 times
Looks like the thru hull is not bonded and becoming its own anode? No?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:27 am
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:44 pm Looks like the thru hull is not bonded and becoming its own anode? No?
That is the only metal in the water (excluding rudder p&g). I don’t think I have an actual anode anywhere on the boat. I need to get her hauled out an painted. My plan is to address that fresh water outlet at that time. I may actually close off the thru hull and send the water to the bilge pump. Seems like a bad idea. So does having just that one thru hull.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:04 am
by fallguy1000
All bonding systems need an anode or the least noble metal becomes one afaik. So, if it is the only through hull, then it is your boat's anode, by default. Sort of...

Noted on your boat, it is not bonded or tied to the grounding systems and it must be.

If you had another real zinc anode in the system and were tied to it, that zinc would do all the corrosion.

Once your engine is back, the aluminum on it will probably become the least noble metal and corrode, but because it is not tied to the thru hull, the thru hull will also corrode. Unless your ob has zincs..then they would be the anode for the boat, if connected to the other bonded items.

Anyhow, I know enough to know that isn't right, but not enough to sound half intelligent.

Your outboard also needs an anode and if it doesn't have one; get one and tie it to the boat's bonding system.

I have to research if my outboards zincs need any special attention or if the battery is enough.

My skiff has zincs with a ring terminal to connect to the boats bonding system, but I never bother in freshwater.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:20 am
by Jaysen
The merc 9.9 was set for salt and is getting new anodes while in the shop. So they tell me. We shall see.

If I keep that thru-hull it will be replaced with simple plastic with a screen on the outside. what I really want to do is just seal it closed and run it out the back via a pump. but that seems like a bad idea. The only thing that goes through it is the head freshwater sink and the gally freshwater sink. I don't see the point though. Just replace with plastic and call it done.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:32 am
by fallguy1000
Is it a drain?

Is it below the waterline?

Not a fan of plastic thru hulls below waterline. If they break off....

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:25 am
by Jaysen
Yeah... it's a drain. all it drains are two unused sinks. I could put it above the water line as both sinks are high enough. At some point that entire thing needs to "go away" and be relocated to an area that is less likely to get whacked by stuff in the void (where the engine used to be is now storage and things will be in/out of the area regularly).

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:57 am
by fallguy1000
Anytime a drain can be above water; do it.

But always install a flexible fitting and always use a p trap to keep skeeters out of living spaces.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:11 pm
by TomW1
fallguy1000 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:57 am Anytime a drain can be above water; do it.

But always install a flexible fitting and always use a p trap to keep skeeters out of living spaces.
Totally agree with you fallguy. Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:11 pm
by Jaysen
TomW1 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:11 pm
fallguy1000 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:57 am Anytime a drain can be above water; do it.

But always install a flexible fitting and always use a p trap to keep skeeters out of living spaces.
Totally agree with you fallguy. Tom
I've never seen real P traps on little sailboats. Everything just goes straight to the drink. Also, no ridged plumbing. Remember that these suckers roll like sweet corn in butter at a southern family reunion. if you have any water in a line it will be out the drain and back into your cabin pretty quick. On the J we had to shut off ALL the stop cocks undersail as water would go the wrong way. If you need to use the head, there was a procedure list...
1. Do your business.
2. open line to black water tank.
3. Turn on head pump
4. open raw water line
5. count to 5
6. rotate pump handle clockwise
7. pump till your business is gone.
8. close raw water line
9. rotate pump handle counter clockwise.
10. pump till empty
11. close black water tank
12. turn off head pump.
13. You know you made a mess... clean it up.

It was crazy to see water coming up the gally drain underway. But that's just how it worked once you had that thru hull buried and the boat started into the rollers. the sink was just above the water line so a large wave would raise the water in the drain. I can't wait to have that problem with Lil Bit More.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:24 pm
by OrangeQuest

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:30 pm
by Jaysen
Not sure those work with … solids.

🤢

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:53 pm
by OrangeQuest
Jaysen wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:30 pm Not sure those work with … solids.

🤢
It uses a flapper valve and I would guess you would follow a solid with a liquid to complete the flush. When I was looking at them in home depot they were the easiest to blow through but could not blow soft enough to get air past them, I bought 2.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:25 am
by Fuzz
Jaysen wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:27 pm Well…

Started back in the tank. I will admit to engaging the B. F. H. and getting no where. Broke out the grinder and cut everything that wasn’t going to be in the boat next week out. Washed it down a bit.
9018
So what am I looking at in this picture?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:07 am
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:25 am
Jaysen wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:27 pm Well…

Started back in the tank. I will admit to engaging the B. F. H. and getting no where. Broke out the grinder and cut everything that wasn’t going to be in the boat next week out. Washed it down a bit.
9018
So what am I looking at in this picture?
That's "the void". Back wall is transom. thing in the middle is the old muffler, and the foreground is the sail drive mount. When I started the day it looked like
9016

By the end of the day
9019

We had to cut out the metal bracket that was going to hold the gas tank. We removed all the "it will never be used" remnants that were removable (the muffler and the sail drive mount are integrated into the hull). All the old blower ducting, scrap parts, a lot of dirt, and random detritus collected over the years... gone. I'm going to head down and scrub it here this afternoon and will get a new mounting plan for the tank figured out. I'm hoping to push the tank further back.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:06 pm
by Fuzz
The saildrive was what I did not understand, never been around one before. Kind of strange they would glass the muffler into the hull but I have seen some strange things done by the factories.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:13 pm
by terrulian
I feel like I must be missing something. All thru-hulls beneath the waterline should have ball valves. All hoses should be double-clamped with 100% stainless clamps. All should have soft wooden plugs on a lanyard next to the thru-hull. The white stuff around that pipe (what is that, galvanized??) gives me the creeps. "Plastic" thru-hulls aren't plastic, they're Marelon, which is fine and won't corrode. Why would you want a check valve? Not sure what the toilet is but most have them internally. That's no place for a check valve. Close it manually when not in use.

I'm sure I must be missing something but that setup looks very, very dodgy. 8O

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:25 pm
by Jaysen
No plumbed head on my boat. The head stores was about racing the J30 and the head being a shite show due to wave action/back flow.

On Lil Bit More, the only below water thru hull is the sink drains. That bronze unit is all messed up from lack of care from PO. I will address it proper when she’s out for bottom job. When I do replace it I’ll make all kinds of bad decisions around rerouting the plumbing and material choices. One thing I really want to do is move that entire thing out of “the line of impact” relative to things stowed in the void. Not sure where it will go as the convenient locations are difficult to access for emergency shutoff.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:44 pm
by fallguy1000
Do you have any bonding system at all?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:39 pm
by Jaysen
Use a different term than bonding.

Not being dense. Just want to answer the question correctly.

Also, I’m 100% sure the boat is not right.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:02 pm
by terrulian
OK, got it.
Fall guy is not wrong, but there is a downside to having the sink drain above the waterline, which is that the sink will probably only drain when at a berth or anchor. At least, it won't drain when you are heeled and the sink is on the low side. Maybe this isn't something that would bother you. But if you do place the thru-hull beneath the waterline, see above about proper installation.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:39 pm
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:39 pm Use a different term than bonding.

Not being dense. Just want to answer the question correctly.

Also, I’m 100% sure the boat is not right.
Are all the things that are metal and below the waterline attached to a/the grounding system?

Obviously one is not.

Is the outboard a battery start or pull? Is the anode going to be connected to the bonding system?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:49 am
by Jaysen
No bonding. The one thru hull is the only metal below water line.

Motor is pull start. No connection to electrical system. Has/is getting anodes.

Once the tank is installed and plumbed I’m going “full focus” on electrical. It’s so bad that I’ve ordered new “pro level” tools to speed it up. I’m hoping several gremlins will magically disappear once that project is started.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:34 pm
by Jaysen
We are almost off the dock!!!

We discovered much of the electrical was a fecal show of superior quality (that’s a bad thing). Adam and I have been fixing things only to find random splices, loops and other fun. Today we cut all the nav light crap and installed crappy Chinese knock offs. But we KNOW it is wired correctly. And while this looks like a shot of Adam’s crotch, it’s really just a pic i accidentally took while trying to make sure the separation of green and red was adequate (it’s not, I know, but it passes per the coasty and DNR folks doing a dock walk).
9043

And here we have everything needed to plumb the new internal tank minus 6 clamps! I also have an old school float switch and high speed bilge (3x the size previously installed). If that can’t move the water faster than it gets in… I need to give up.
9044

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:57 pm
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:49 am No bonding. The one thru hull is the only metal below water line.

Motor is pull start. No connection to electrical system. Has/is getting anodes.

Once the tank is installed and plumbed I’m going “full focus” on electrical. It’s so bad that I’ve ordered new “pro level” tools to speed it up. I’m hoping several gremlins will magically disappear once that project is started.
You want to run a ground wire from the engine zincs to the boat ground bus I'd say.

Or not.. if you have no other metals below water..

I can help with wiring questions. I am a semi-professional idiot at this point. But about two months ago, didn't realize my boat voltage was low; so, yeah.

Are you plugging into marina power to charge a battery then?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:46 am
by Jaysen
We are "ripping out" large sections of wiring regularly. Mostly no longer use harnesses for old nav hardware (we are running pulls to make sure we can get wires back through if we need to). I'm pretty solid on the wiring just less on the terms specific to nautical wiring (ex bonding). My goal is to have a minimalist electrical system with the focus being on rechargeable things. This reserves house bats for radio (also a batt unit onboard) nav lights, depth sounder, pumps, and a heater/fan for the Mrs. I'm still on the fence for how much lighting I need on deck for night runs, but I feel it will come down to compass and depth with nothing else.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:15 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:46 am I'm still on the fence for how much lighting I need on deck for night runs
Headlamps?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:22 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:15 am
Jaysen wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:46 am I'm still on the fence for how much lighting I need on deck for night runs
Headlamps?
I was thinking none? God did put a pile of little candles on the ceiling and there is so much light pollution that I fish with no light... The only reason I can imagine needing lights is to compensate for stupid nav systems that create hot spots. This was a big problem on the J30. the stupid B&G screen was so bright that you basically had to cover it to see forward of the companionway. Considering that I won't have a nav display and current backlighting for depth and compass are very dim red, I'm hoping I'll be able to get away with nothing. I could see headlamps being useful for beating and docking/anchoring. I'm hoping that I'll have a clean enough deck that even that won't be needed.

I'm generally wrong.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:43 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:22 am
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:15 am
Jaysen wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:46 am I'm still on the fence for how much lighting I need on deck for night runs
Headlamps?
the stupid B&G screen was so bright that you basically had to cover it to see forward of the companionway.
I hear that! The one time I ran aground was because the GPS was too bright and I shut it off, thinking I was well aware of where I was without it. :help:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:42 pm
by fallguy1000
I bought a Lumitec led capri ?? for the aft deck and a GoLite somethung ir other, but the boat is 17' wide and my house will be the slip, so I need to light it up to back in.

Cockpit lights are helpful, but for a small sailboat a small led flood would be good.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:07 pm
by Jaysen
Tank is officially “in”. Still need to get it strapped down and plumbed. Discovered that the vent hose needs updated. Also need to snake the fuel line through some torturous turns. I may need to get some anti chaffing grommets on some of the bulk heads.
9046

Current expectation is that we are off the dock noon local on 11/1/21. If all goes well there will be video and pictures!

I’ve a few things to do between now and then. Hopefully I’ll get some updates as we get work done.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:12 pm
by fallguy1000
Anti-chafing...

Use thick rubber with cloth if you have it or old innertubes if not.

Can be sliced against gravity and applied over existing lines.

Or you can tube BHs with pvc and some caulk like 5200 or faster setting stuff.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:40 pm
by Jaysen
And it’s plumbed!

Grounds on fill and tank.
Double clamps on fill and all tank side connections.
Primer bulb moved to motor side of transom.

Need to get it strapped down tomorrow.

Adding fuel in the next 2 days and making sure the motor will drink from it.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:57 am
by Fuzz
Good deal! I know you are about ready to make some good use of the boat.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:23 am
by glossieblack
My hunch is you're about ready to go cruising for a week or so, which will be long enough to inform you which 80% you've got rigjt, which 10% you need to tweak to get right, and which 10% you need to junk and start again.

Enjoy the cruising and learning, aka the cruising way of life. . :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:30 am
by Jaysen
No real cruiser g’night at this point. More day sails to get comfy with how she behaves. I’ll do a couple solo overnights on the dock than a couple on a mooring ball before dragging the Mrs out into the “great unknown”.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:40 pm
by Jaysen
Bwahahahaha!!!! It’s alive! It’s ALIIIIIIVE!!!!!

Before anyone comments on the stupid loop in the fill line, I’m bracketing it later. This was just getting fuel in it and getting the motor running.

https://youtube.com/shorts/LQg5Ih-Tljo?feature=share

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:33 pm
by VT_Jeff
Sweet as!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:32 pm
by Jeff
Excellent Jaysen!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:34 pm
by TomW1
Congrats, Jaysen! Hope all goes well. Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:54 am
by cape man
Has to feel good!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:26 am
by Jaysen
cape man wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:54 am Has to feel good!
It really does. Today I'm getting straps on the tank and REMOVING THE TOOLS! This will be the first time she will be back to "use it mode" since May. I may have taken a nap on her, but after today all I need to do to go on a cruise is load up portable fixtures and provisions. I'm sure Mrs will suggest some improvements Monday, but she's so easy going she will give me a few days to enjoy sailing her "as is" before she pulls the "fix it before I get back on board" card.

I'll try to get some pics of her current state today. She is particularly "better looking" today as the diver wiped her nether regions clean and smooth.

After we sail Monday the list for the "next round" is
1. look into zincs. there are 0 on the hull
2. mast head lighting for anchor
3. mast head wind vane
4. electrical mess (we accidentally fixed 4 things just by retightening grounds... it's that bad)
5. go. sailing. more.
6. address undersized cleats and locations

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:10 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:26 am
cape man wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:54 am Has to feel good!
It really does. Today I'm getting straps on the tank and REMOVING THE TOOLS! This will be the first time she will be back to "use it mode" since May. I may have taken a nap on her, but after today all I need to do to go on a cruise is load up portable fixtures and provisions. I'm sure Mrs will suggest some improvements Monday, but she's so easy going she will give me a few days to enjoy sailing her "as is" before she pulls the "fix it before I get back on board" card.

I'll try to get some pics of her current state today. She is particularly "better looking" today as the diver wiped her nether regions clean and smooth.

After we sail Monday the list for the "next round" is
1. look into zincs. there are 0 on the hull
2. mast head lighting for anchor
3. mast head wind vane
4. electrical mess (we accidentally fixed 4 things just by retightening grounds... it's that bad)
5. go. sailing. more.
6. address undersized cleats and locations
I like #5!

Can you sail right through the winter there?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:36 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:10 am Can you sail right through the winter there?
Hahahahaha

You forget which idiot you are talking too!

Short answer: Yes
Long answer: salt never freezes… fuzz could sail year round as a popsicle.

We get low 40s on bad days. They close schools under 37. Happens 2x a year. Flurries shut the towns down for 3 days. If it sticks there are riots in homes. Add to those facts, someone wants to sail a 5.8m (19’) boat around the world solo.

So yeah, I’ll be sailing year round or be forced to admit to myself that the Globe 580 is never happening.

To that end, Mrs is already planning a two month “no Jaysen” window where I’ll be living on the boat from a mooring ball or at least disconnected from the power/water. Kind of a dry run to see how I do.

I have more plans before that but I need to get through Monday first.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:24 am
by narfi
Jaysen wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:36 am salt never freezes… fuzz could sail year round as a popsicle.
hmmmm... vodka never freezes either, but you can still buy adult freeze pops(or whatever they are called) at Costco.....

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:54 am
by Jaysen
narfi wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:24 am
Jaysen wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:36 am salt never freezes… fuzz could sail year round as a popsicle.
hmmmm... vodka never freezes either, but you can still buy adult freeze pops(or whatever they are called) at Costco.....
Fuzz also offered to show me frozen sea water. In August. I prefer to live with my head firmly planted in the sand.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:53 pm
by Jeff
Really good stuff Jaysen!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:35 pm
by Fuzz
Image
Well maybe salt water can get a little bit hard

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:47 pm
by Jaysen
Well… apparently I took a nap and not pictures. I did get her interior clean up (relative statement) and she is construction tool/debris free. Tomorrow the ladies will be on board getting her back to “passable passage condition” for Monday’s jaunt.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:48 pm
by TomW1
That is great Jaysen. Enjoy your jaunt. Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:00 pm
by Jaysen
We took Lil Bit More out for a "maiden sail" of sorts. The plan was a 8mi run to the large ocean opening between Hilton Head Island and Saint Helena Island. Weather info providers INSISTED that we would have "5-8kn from the east" all day. That would have been glorious. What we actually had was 1-6kn from the north. Except when it was 3kn from the east, 5kn from the south, or 1kn from the west. Let's say that the next time we go out, the group demands that it be an active storm just "so we can turn the 2 smoke off and sail in peace."

Day started with a little prep. I want to say there is as much prep to go fishing as there is to go sailing, but I'm not sure. about an hour later I had it done but still discovered things I missed as the day went on.
9064

Mrs was arguing with me over her need for the white cushions. I said she needed them. They never left the cabin. This morning she may have suggested that the cushions would have been nice to have.
9065

Mrs was very thankful for Adam's contribution to the boat. She didn't understand my need to find the bucket until this arrived. We have a head of sorts now.
9066

Left the dock and raised the sails! We had some spots with good wind and when she was in it, she moved much better than I expected. I'm very happy with how she sails. I did learn a bit about some of her "older" style fixings. I need to decide if I'm going to upgrade or just rejuvenate what she has. There is no racing here so rejuvenate is probably cheaper.
9067

At spring high tide I should have 20' clearance. We marked 30' based on the piling scale. Very happy about that. more than a few boats have to deal with this fix bridge based on tides. I can just scoot through whenever.
9068

Mrs eventually got annoyed with the 2 smoke and lack of breeze. We pulled a U turn. When she realized that we were fighting the tide (on purpose) and that the 2hr outbound trip would be less than 45min back she was a little annoyed with herself. I said "we will have other days" and we headed back.
9069

Adam was a big help with shutting her down and putting her to bed. It's nice to see the next generation paying back with some sweat when needed. He's pushing hard for a "spritely day". I shouldn't have used that word because now he's killing it for me.
9070

This was the view with some of GlossieBlack's sundowners. Really can't complain. So I won't.
9071

All in all a mildly disappointing day with a few very very high spots in it. 9/10 would recommend and plan to do it again!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:05 pm
by Jeff
Glad you guys got her out!! Too bad you did not have good winds!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:34 pm
by TomW1
Just getting her out and home was an accomplishment so I would say that was a 10, Nice looking boat yard.

Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:00 pm
by VT_Jeff
Nice work getting some miles under the hull! I wonder if those wind variances are in some part due to the East wind being jetted through the river and some chimney effect. In lake Ontario, near our harbor, any wind except south appears like a north wind.

Is there any opportunity for you to anchor the boat near your place for quick trips out to the mouth?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:07 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:05 pm Glad you guys got her out!! Too bad you did not have good winds!!! Jeff
Adam showed up at the house today (we are replacing parts on his boat), ignored me, walked up to the mrs and said "Saturday it is supposed to be 15 out of the east... if we can't get it to move with no motor I will throw him over the side. You in?" And with that, we have a plan to sail on Saturday. In the rain.

I love this plan.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:09 pm
by Jaysen
TomW1 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:34 pm Just getting her out and home was an accomplishment so I would say that was a 10, Nice looking boat yard.

Tom
It would have been a 10 but the motor is still not happy. That lead to some panic and me bleeding from the head. Mrs said the blood coming from my cranium raised the day from a 6 to a 9 in her book. I know she likes me, but it is hard to prove sometimes.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:17 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:09 pm Mrs said the blood coming from my cranium raised the day from a 6 to a 9 in her book.
Now that's love, right there!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:19 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:00 pm Nice work getting some miles under the hull! I wonder if those wind variances are in some part due to the East wind being jetted through the river and some chimney effect. In lake Ontario, near our harbor, any wind except south appears like a north wind.

Is there any opportunity for you to anchor the boat near your place for quick trips out to the mouth?
We are dead flat and with no wind shadow creators that would create that level of shift. Normally an easy wind is much nicer (steadier) because ... ocean. On looking at the various wind sensors historical, they all showed north wind the entire day. I think all the apps were just wrong.

I have miles of water, but all of it very open. I'd need to get a proper mooring set up registered with the CG to be safe. I can do it for a couple nights without too much concern, but a number of boats have been found sitting on their sides after a couple of days of being ignored. If I had a small GV or other motor boat, I could put her up a creek. My plan is to let Adam and Mrs discover why I love sailing by only going out in 10kn+ winds. If they don't get it at that, I need to find new "friends".

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:21 pm
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:17 pm
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:09 pm Mrs said the blood coming from my cranium raised the day from a 6 to a 9 in her book.
Now that's love, right there!
I know! You'd almost think she would have wanted to help patch the hole but NOOOO!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:27 pm
by Fuzz
Glad to see you are getting some use out of the boat. Even better when the Mrs will go with you.
The best way I have found to have no wind for a trip is to take a sail boat :roll:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:32 pm
by VT_Jeff
Fuzz wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:27 pm Glad to see you are getting some use out of the boat. Even better when the Mrs will go with you.
The best way I have found to have no wind for a trip is to take a sail boat :roll:
Agreed. If you want a guarantee of wind, just go dry-fly fishing on flat-water!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:42 pm
by TomW1
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:32 pm
Fuzz wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:27 pm Glad to see you are getting some use out of the boat. Even better when the Mrs will go with you.
The best way I have found to have no wind for a trip is to take a sail boat :roll:
Agreed. If you want a guarantee of wind, just go dry-fly fishing on flat-water!
Jeff can't agree more, I don't fly fish but spinning reel with 1//16 oz or smaller lure and 2lb line does the same thing. :lol: For trout is the strams in these Mountains.

Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:34 pm
by terrulian
Great stuff, Jaysen. A disappointment? yer on the water, got a wife that will go along. No worries.

In the picture of the main, it looks as though the topping lift might be taut. You don't want that.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:26 pm
by Jaysen
The disappointment for me was just about the lack of actual wind with which to sail. Even the motor deciding it was done for the day didn’t bother me that much. But planning a sail only to have no wind … that’s just annoying.

The topping lift is going to be a problem. It isn’t easily detachable nor is it practically adjustable. The tension is just from the main sheet. I need ti figure that out before the weekend. We have another “sail” planned for Saturday.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:48 pm
by terrulian
It seems odd there is no adjustment, but if that is the case, I'd re-rig it. It wouldn't be hard and I could walk you through it. In the meantime, you could add some length just by putting a short length of rope with a sheet bend to the original part. I'm not telling you anything you don't know. But when you sheet in the main, you can't flatten it if you're just pulling on the topping lift.

I get it with the disappointment. Just giving you some stick.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:21 pm
by Jaysen
I think my plan is to put a simple shackle in topping lift so I can just unclip it from the boom to a holder on the back stay. I think.

Adam is all up to go on Saturday. I keep telling him “I’m an idiot, but you have a brain… 20kn of wind is more than you really want to be in for your first time turning off the motor”.

We shall see if he survives.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:41 pm
by Jaysen
Semi historic day … Mrs looked at me this morning and said, “I think I want to sleep on the boat this weekend. That means you need to pack a bag and sleep on it tonight. I’ve packed some food.”

So here I am, half a day of work down, preparing my first on board meal using my son’s field stove (because I forgot the ship stove).
9072

Mrs called. “Make sure you sleep in the V so I can make sure to pack enough warm clothes.”

I married the right one.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:49 pm
by Jeff
You guys have a great weekend!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:06 pm
by terrulian
I don't think the shackle on the backstay is a good solution. What are you going to do when reefing under sail, when the main has to be eased, and supported by the topping lift while you bring the reefing cringle down to the gooseneck? Same when dousing. Maybe I'm visualizing it wrong.
If you're going out in 20 knots, what you'd like to do is present a simulacrum of calm confidence while he is freaking out. Get back to us and tell us how it goes.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:10 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:06 pm I don't think the shackle on the backstay is a good solution. What are you going to do when reefing under sail, when the main has to be eased, and supported by the topping lift while you bring the reefing cringle down to the gooseneck? Same when dousing. Maybe I'm visualizing it wrong.
We used this method on the J30. The main trimmer was responsible to reattach the topping lift when needed. Now that I’m on the boat, I’m realizing there IS adjustability to the topping lift. I need to figure it out and remember to adjust.
terrulian wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:06 pm If you're going out in 20 knots, what you'd like to do is present a simulacrum of calm confidence while he is freaking out. Get back to us and tell us how it goes.
That is my plan. I’m confident in the boat. I know I can get me back, in the boat, to dock, in safety. I’m asking myself how much of a ride do I take him on.

One of the things I’ll have to manage is the return will be beating all the way back if the forecast is correct. It’s been a while since I’ve had to drive straight into the snot with limited room for tacking (or recovery from tack error). I may just run him back and forth at the upper section near the marina (look up the Richard Woods Memorial Bridge in Beaufort SC and we are in the marina just west of it). That also gives us some wind shadow to dive into should the panic start to win.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:18 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:41 pm Semi historic day … Mrs looked at me this morning and said, “I think I want to sleep on the boat this weekend. That means you need to pack a bag and sleep on it tonight. I’ve packed some food.”

So here I am, half a day of work down, preparing my first on board meal using my son’s field stove (because I forgot the ship stove).
9072

Mrs called. “Make sure you sleep in the V so I can make sure to pack enough warm clothes.”

I married the right one.
That's what my galley looked like for a few seasons before I got a new stove. Jetboils are awesome!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:08 pm
by terrulian
I’m realizing there IS adjustability to the topping lift. I need to figure it out and remember to adjust.
It depends on the boat, but on Maverick we never had to adjust the topping lift. It was set so it was just loose enough with full sail and all three reefs with the sheet hardened, so we didn't need to bother. Same on the Catalina 22. I'm for making things simple. I'm not exactly sure why you'd have to on the J30 but I don't think I've crewed on one of those. I'll ask around.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:21 pm
by Jaysen
The J was all about racing. We did more backstay tweaks than topping. Topping was off when under way (excluding foredeck topping for whisker poles … I have nightmares about those).

On the H it would add a LOT of bag on the sail for wing or spin flying. A close equivalent for comparison would the a fin keel C25. J24 are much smaller and C27 way bigger.

I’ll snap some photos of what’s there and what I’m planning.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:22 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:08 pm
I’m realizing there IS adjustability to the topping lift. I need to figure it out and remember to adjust.
It depends on the boat, but on Maverick we never had to adjust the topping lift. It was set so it was just loose enough with full sail and all three reefs with the sheet hardened, so we didn't need to bother. Same on the Catalina 22. I'm for making things simple. I'm not exactly sure why you'd have to on the J30 but I don't think I've crewed on one of those. I'll ask around.
Jaysen wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:21 pm The J was all about racing. We did more backstay tweaks than topping. Topping was off when under way (excluding foredeck topping for whisker poles … I have nightmares about those).

On the H it would add a LOT of bag on the sail for wing or spin flying. A close equivalent for comparison would the a fin keel C25. J24 are much smaller and C27 way bigger.

I’ll snap some photos of what’s there and what I’m planning.
Remember this was a freshwater raceboat "back in the day" on Lake Murry. That's what the marina that did the second to last refit said in explanation for removal of the atomic 4. The folks that did the most recent refit (2000's) said they only addressed a few things to put her back to coastal cruiser and make her safe. She has sat on the docks for at least 10 years and the boatyard said she sat 5yr on the hard due to owner passing away.

Here is the topping lift adjuster
9080

My plan would be to just eliminate the blocks and directly attach the topping lift to the boom with a snap. I actually like the idea of the boom attaching high for dockside "stuff" but it would be a PITA underway. the best answer is almost certainly "leave it alone and be a better, more attentive, captain."

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:51 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:22 am
Here is the topping lift adjuster
9080
Is that how the PO left it or did you add the blocks? Looks to me like maybe the boom was used to lift something, like the outboard, Rudder, or a MOB.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:57 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:51 am Is that how the PO left it or did you add the blocks? Looks to me like maybe the boom was used to lift something, like the outboard, Rudder, or a MOB.
That is how I received it. The line in the blocks is 1/8. It isn't holding a lot of weight. The boom "might" be suitable for a MOB but not a motor as the motor bracket is several feet from the boom (I know this from attempting to use it for the install/removal of the current motor). At a minimum, I may swap these out to smaller blocks. I have a couple fiddles on the backstay adjuster that would be smarter here with these on the backstay.

That said, I don't need ANY of that adjustment for our sail plan (take the mrs on a 3hr tour).

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:13 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:57 am
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:51 am Is that how the PO left it or did you add the blocks? Looks to me like maybe the boom was used to lift something, like the outboard, Rudder, or a MOB.
That is how I received it. The line in the blocks is 1/8. It isn't holding a lot of weight. The boom "might" be suitable for a MOB but not a motor as the motor bracket is several feet from the boom (I know this from attempting to use it for the install/removal of the current motor). At a minimum, I may swap these out to smaller blocks. I have a couple fiddles on the backstay adjuster that would be smarter here with these on the backstay.

That said, I don't need ANY of that adjustment for our sail plan (take the mrs on a 3hr tour).
3 hour tour, eh? 3 hour tour... What could possibly go wrong.

Enjoy!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:17 pm
by Jaysen
Not a lot. Sea tow and an over zealous CG presence has gotten boats that were purposely beached for a couple hours removed, stranding the families on the barrier islands.

Never leave a boat in the sand here without a note saying “will be back” with a full date and time for your return.

If you’re anchored… years will pass before they care.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:00 pm
by Fuzz
So how can we get a live feed looking at the skipper when the wind picks up :lol: :roll:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:17 pm
by Jaysen
I declined the trip tomorrow. Gale warnings? Nope.

Monday looks good though.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:55 am
by terrulian
I can't remember ever seeing that much purchase on a topping lift. 1/8" line is pretty strong, breaking strength about 500#, which would do for anything you were lifting aboard that boat. Obviously, as you say, not for the outboard. Could be an ultra paranoid captain preparing for lifting an MOB but it is very curious and I'd want to contact the PO just out of curiosity. A 2/1 purchase is all you'd need unless you were on a very large boat and I wouldn't want the mess of those blocks at the end of the boom. If you find out let us know.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:14 am
by Jaysen
I’d love to contact the man that put that in there, but I’d need a medium to do it. At this point I think the “smart answer” is going to be replacing that mess with a simple upper block (line to masthead fixed) with the running line terminated on boom end and cleated with a simple v jam cleat that includes fair lead. That would let me just “pop it loose” and rely on a simple 8 stopper to ensure line isn’t lost.

Still thinking about it.

Glad we canceled today. 3’ breaking caps in 60’ of water. Hitting at what looks like 1-3 seconds. One dock down already. Going to be an interesting day or two.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:38 pm
by Jaysen
This was the state of things at 10a…
https://youtube.com/shorts/eaH7r1C1u5s?feature=share

It eventually calmed down. To this
https://youtu.be/jBZh4Nx0lOo

Yeah. Made the right call.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:23 pm
by terrulian
If I were a dick, I'd say that's a typical afternoon on SF Bay. But I won't say that.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:37 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:23 pm If I were a dick, I'd say that's a typical afternoon on SF Bay. But I won't say that.
I would not disagree. And if I had more time in Lil Bit More , more confidence in the engine, and crew that new how to manage the conditions… maybe it would seem less daunting. At some point I will need to go out in these conditions just to prove to myself that I can handle them.

Today is not that day.

Typical seas and wind at that spot are <2’ at 6sec with winds under 10kn. Hoping to get the upper end of that next week.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:09 pm
by terrulian
Just kidding, Jaysen, of course. You're absolutely doing the prudent, seamanlike thing. There is no upside to taking foolish risks.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:16 pm
by Jaysen
There are old sailors.
There are bold sailors.
But there are very very few old, bold sailors.

I think you said that to me a while back.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:38 pm
by terrulian
There are old sailors.
There are bold sailors.
But there are very very few old, bold sailors.

I think you said that to me a while back.
That is commonly said, but I don't think I said it to you. My version is, "There are three stages in sailing: novice, paranoid, retired." The alternative to the last is: "dead."

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:23 am
by glossieblack
Jaysen wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:22 am Here is the topping lift adjuster
9080

What I think I'm seeing here is a remnant of a backstay tensioner used to bend the mast when she was raced.

The setup was probably a backstay from near the top of the mast to attached to a pulley block a little above head height, through which ran a tensioner line to both aft quarters.

Visualise an inverted Y running from near top of the mast down to the two aft quarters, with a pulley at middle of the Y. Pull on the tackle in the pic to increase mast bend, let it off to decrease.

Just a guess.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:02 am
by Jaysen
glossieblack wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:23 am
Jaysen wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:22 am Here is the topping lift adjuster
9080
What I think I'm seeing here is a remnant of a backstay tensioner used to bend the mast when she was raced.

The setup was probably a backstay from near the top of the mast to attached to a pulley block a little above head height, through which ran a tensioner line to both aft quarters.

Visualise an inverted Y running from near top of the mast down to the two aft quarters, with a pulley at middle of the Y. Pull on the tackle in the pic to increase mast bend, let it off to decrease.

Just a guess.
Ah! that makes sense! We do have backstay adjuster that I would get rid of in favor of this if I can figure out how to go back to this older method. we currently have the annoying "pull the car down" which deflects the outer stays and requires a pile of extra hardware on the transom. Since we aren't racing I'm not sure I'll ever really need to mess with the backstay outside of tuning sessions. But I've been wrong with everything else so far...

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:12 am
by fallguy1000
I call that a rope thingy.

Lotsa help, ain't I?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:22 am
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:12 am I call that a rope thingy.

Lotsa help, ain't I?
You and my wife speak the same language. We have space for crew like that though... rail meat. When the winds get frisky someone has to sit on the windward rail, drink some adult beverage and enjoy the ride.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:29 am
by OrangeQuest
Jaysen wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:22 am

You and my wife speak the same language. We have space for crew like that though... rail meat. When the winds get frisky someone has to sit on the windward rail, drink some adult beverage and enjoy the ride.
For my 50th birthday my brother-in-law took my family for a "sail" on their big sailboat. The boat had a seat outside the rail, I am guessing that is what it was for. I did exactly as you described. Beer in hand and wind in face as the boat leaned with the wind! I was on the upside? Is that the windward side?

Talk outboards I have a cue but you guys talking all this NEW eco-friendly wind powered stuff is out of my wheelhouse.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:32 am
by Jaysen
OrangeQuest wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:29 am I was on the upside? Is that the windward side?
Yep! You were rail meat!

it's easy to tell which way is "windward" on a sailboat, just walk uphill. That's windward. :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:27 am
by glossieblack
Jaysen wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:02 am Ah! that makes sense! We do have backstay adjuster that I would get rid of in favor of this if I can figure out how to go back to this older method. we currently have the annoying "pull the car down" which deflects the outer stays and requires a pile of extra hardware on the transom. Since we aren't racing I'm not sure I'll ever really need to mess with the backstay outside of tuning sessions. But I've been wrong with everything else so far...
At the aft port quarter, is there a similar attachment lug to the one at the aft starboard quarter? If so, a sensible backstay tensioning solution is easy peasy. :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:18 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:02 am Ah! that makes sense! We do have backstay adjuster that I would get rid of in favor of this if I can figure out how to go back to this older method. we currently have the annoying "pull the car down" which deflects the outer stays and requires a pile of extra hardware on the transom. Since we aren't racing I'm not sure I'll ever really need to mess with the backstay outside of tuning sessions. But I've been wrong with everything else so far...


My understanding is this: On a fractional rig, the back-stay adjuster is used to flatten the main and gets fussed with a lot.. On a masthead rig, it's just there to tension the fore-stay, set-and-forget. I give mine a yank after I unfurl the genny and notice a big bow in the forestay. And then I loosen it back at the mooring, I guess because there's no reason to leave it loaded.

So while I agree you don't need to mess with it much, you're going to need some ability for gross tensioning. Maybe you can get the fore-stay and back-stay setup to where you can tune them with turnbuckles but it seems more common to use a back-stay adjuster to pull the slack out of the fore-stay.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:35 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:18 am So while I agree you don't need to mess with it much, you're going to need some ability for gross tensioning. Maybe you can get the fore-stay and back-stay setup to where you can tune them with turnbuckles but it seems more common to use a back-stay adjuster to pull the slack out of the fore-stay.
Helms is masthead. Given that she's on a fuller that is a "short" for the stay (only about 6"), I've just cranked on the jib halyard post unroll to get the jib tensioned. That would effectively tension the backstay as well. I need to drop the mast to address a few unpleasant things up top. I think that is going to be the ideal time to figure all this out. Maybe.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:48 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:35 am
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:18 am So while I agree you don't need to mess with it much, you're going to need some ability for gross tensioning. Maybe you can get the fore-stay and back-stay setup to where you can tune them with turnbuckles but it seems more common to use a back-stay adjuster to pull the slack out of the fore-stay.
That would effectively tension the backstay as well.
If you can pull the tension out of a staticly-set backstay by tensioning the halyard then that may well be a simple way to go, I may be a little concerned about stretching that halyard but I guess that's what they're designed for.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:10 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:48 am
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:35 am
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:18 am So while I agree you don't need to mess with it much, you're going to need some ability for gross tensioning. Maybe you can get the fore-stay and back-stay setup to where you can tune them with turnbuckles but it seems more common to use a back-stay adjuster to pull the slack out of the fore-stay.
That would effectively tension the backstay as well.
If you can pull the tension out of a staticly-set backstay by tensioning the halyard then that may well be a simple way to go, I may be a little concerned about stretching that halyard but I guess that's what they're designed for.
I've more concerns about how to properly tune the rig given she's designed to be dismasted regularly... and there are no tension numbers I can find anywhere. I'd much prefer to tension the stay statically using the backstay as you indicated. But for now we just need to go sailing.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:12 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:10 am
and there are no tension numbers I can find anywhere.
I think the tension is standard by the stay gauge, I don't think it varies much boat-to-boat, but I'll tale a look at that.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:29 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:12 am
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:10 am
and there are no tension numbers I can find anywhere.
I think the tension is standard by the stay gauge, I don't think it varies much boat-to-boat, but I'll tale a look at that.
I think there are maximum by gauge, but I "thought" the actual preferred tension was based on rigging style, mast step type, etc.

Ex: if 1/8 swadged steel on a deck-stepped, masthead bermuda with 3 independent stays at the spreaders you'd want looser than on a 1/8 staylock, keel stepped, masthead with single aft swept stays.

I'd love to be wrong on that. Mrs would say that is situation normal.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:40 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:29 am
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:12 am
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:10 am
and there are no tension numbers I can find anywhere.
I think the tension is standard by the stay gauge, I don't think it varies much boat-to-boat, but I'll tale a look at that.
Ex: if 1/8 swadged steel on a deck-stepped, masthead bermuda with 3 independent stays at the spreaders you'd want looser than on a 1/8 staylock, keel stepped, masthead with single aft swept stays.
Good God! Speak English man!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:44 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:40 am
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:29 am
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:12 am

I think the tension is standard by the stay gauge, I don't think it varies much boat-to-boat, but I'll tale a look at that.
Ex: if 1/8 swadged steel on a deck-stepped, masthead bermuda with 3 independent stays at the spreaders you'd want looser than on a 1/8 staylock, keel stepped, masthead with single aft swept stays.
Good God! Speak English man!
NO!

This is probably the most comprehensive "English" version. It oddly says we are both right while clearly saying "Jaysen is an idiot". https://www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboa ... r-stays-be

Looks like I'll be planning a mast lowering session in the coming weeks.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:40 am
by fallguy1000
Allow me to be of some assistance.

...rope thingy

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:06 pm
by OrangeQuest
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:44 am
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:40 am
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:29 am
Ex: if 1/8 swadged steel on a deck-stepped, masthead bermuda with 3 independent stays at the spreaders you'd want looser than on a 1/8 staylock, keel stepped, masthead with single aft swept stays.
Good God! Speak English man!
NO!

This is probably the most comprehensive "English" version. It oddly says we are both right while clearly saying "Jaysen is an idiot". https://www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboa ... r-stays-be

Looks like I'll be planning a mast lowering session in the coming weeks.
I looked up some of this in my "Understanding Sailor's cursing for non-sailors" and a lot of these words are in there! But I am still confused! :doh:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:14 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:44 am
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:40 am
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:29 am
Ex: if 1/8 swadged steel on a deck-stepped, masthead bermuda with 3 independent stays at the spreaders you'd want looser than on a 1/8 staylock, keel stepped, masthead with single aft swept stays.
Good God! Speak English man!
NO!

This is probably the most comprehensive "English" version. It oddly says we are both right while clearly saying "Jaysen is an idiot". https://www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboa ... r-stays-be

Looks like I'll be planning a mast lowering session in the coming weeks.
Great article. BTW, only the drone string on a banjo is taut, the rest are sloppy. :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:54 am
by Jaysen
As promised, here is the current backstay adjuster

Standard split with "dumb a$$ roller thingy" ...
9100

And someone determined that I need 2 additional holes in my transom as well as more crap around the tiller.
9101

Also, when your favorite shirt is missing, don't ask the wife "what did you do with my shirt" until AFTER you check your boat "locker".
9102

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:04 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:54 am As promised, here is the current backstay adjuster

Standard split with "dumb a$$ roller thingy" ...
9100
Mine is about exactly the same.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:32 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:04 am
Jaysen wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:54 am As promised, here is the current backstay adjuster

Standard split with "dumb a$$ roller thingy" ...
9100
Mine is about exactly the same.
But to you have the extra, poorly place, why the fork can't you use the existing split eyes, attachments on the transom?

I sometimes want to find the guys that did the refit and abuse them with rubber hoses and socks containing Irish spring.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:43 am
by fallguy1000
I could be wrong, but the throw ring looks like it won't pass the 5 second removal standard.

That is a busy corner..

Is the engine working now?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:48 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:32 am But to you have the extra, poorly place, why the fork can't you use the existing split eyes, attachments on the transom?
No, you definitely win the "busy transom" award. My split backstays go to the corners and when my adjuster is attached it also runs to one of the corners, it's not attached in this photo(nor is the main on).

You can just see a small diameter line coming down a few feet from the split, that's my topping lift, which really only serves to keep the boom centered, the kicker keeps it up.
20180611_161502 (2).jpg

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:49 am
by VT_Jeff
fallguy1000 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:43 am I could be wrong, but the throw ring looks like it won't pass the 5 second removal standard.
That's now a "lunch-hook". :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:52 am
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:43 am I could be wrong, but the throw ring looks like it won't pass the 5 second removal standard.

That is a busy corner..
I think it will pass with no issues. The ring is on an open carrier and the line "was floating". I do have a slipable knot to disconnect the line from the rail on that last loop (3' from rail). It pulls from the cockpit. The ring tends to bounce out in lumps per previous owner, hence the need for attachment.

I hate 90% of the transom right now. It is too crowded and not nearly as functional as it should be. That said, most short-handed sailing on tillers is managed from mid cockpit or further forward. In theory, I'm only going to be back there to let ... personal water ... over the side :)
fallguy1000 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:43 am Is the engine working now?
maybe. Ran for 2hr under load, no issues. I'm not sure what to do with it. The bottom of the ocean seems like a good place for it to me.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:18 am
by fallguy1000
Sorry to tell you, again, but that series of engines I really hate with a passion. The all in one concept was an engineer's wet dream and a helmsman's nightmare.

If they flood and they do if you leave the 'cold' button; you are screwed clearing a flood which takes 5 seconds in a normal engine. One bit of advice I can offer is to never take your hand off the idle/cold/warm/run button until it is in the run position. It seems corny, but could save you from the bridge. And probably never leave the dock without it warm.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:54 am
by glossieblack
OK, I understand your current backstay tensioner and topping lift setup now. My two cents worth ..... you'll find sailing easier and safer if you can pull on or release the topping lift when the boom is off centre (think running down wind and you want to shake out a reef), and you revert to the backstay tensioning system we discussed earlier.
Jaysen wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:54 am 9101

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:17 pm
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:18 am Sorry to tell you, again, but that series of engines I really hate with a passion.
...
And probably never leave the dock without it warm.
I actually like the design as it makes it much easier when you don't have 3 hands. Keep in mind that the motor is not used for steering. One hand is on the rudder tiller, one hand is on the throttle which means I am one hand short for managing the F-N-R which gets used a LOT when backing into a slip under heavy current with a 5ft lead board hanging under your boat :)

That said, I do recognize the issues you raise. At this point, they aren't the cause.

And I always run at idle on the dock until the thermostat opens before untie. Dad had an old "ever-rude" back in the 70s on a god's aged woodie. the only time that thing would move the boat reliably was when it had a good 5min warm-up. My mom called it "sunscreen time". Bad disposed of that motor and boat after the second year. "We paddle it more than power it and we already have a canoe."
glossieblack wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:54 am OK, I understand your current backstay tensioner and topping lift setup now. My two cents worth ..... you'll find sailing easier and safer if you can pull on or release the topping lift when the boom is off centre (think running down wind and you want to shake out a reef), and you revert to the backstay tensioning system we discussed earlier.
Jaysen wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:54 am 9101
I'm undecided on exactly what I'm going to do. At a minimum, I'm going to simplify the topping lift setup and move the backstay mess out to the split attachment points. I get the point about being able to adjust the topping while underway. I kind of think all I need to do is use a simpler block (2:1 should be enough) with a jam cleat on the boom. I'll probably leave it "as is" until I drop the mast in the next couple weeks.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:56 pm
by glossieblack
Jaysen wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:17 pm I get the point about being able to adjust the topping while underway. I kind of think all I need to do is use a simpler block (2:1 should be enough) with a jam cleat on the boom.
Well worth a try. :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:25 pm
by terrulian
I get the point about being able to adjust the topping while underway.
Why? You gonna race this baby? Yer talking about what, another 1/4 knot?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:38 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:25 pm
I get the point about being able to adjust the topping while underway.
Why? You gonna race this baby? Yer talking about what, another 1/4 knot?
More about being able to manage reefs easier. Pull the lift tight, move Cunningham up, slack halyard a bit, tighten Cunningham, release outhaul, move clew, tighten outhaul, tighten halyard.

I’m sure that is wrong but that’s how I’m thinking it will play out from the comfort of the couch.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:44 am
by terrulian
If the sail is cut right and the topping lift properly adjusted, you don't have to touch it. Close reach>ease main sheet>ease vang>lower halyard>either hook reef earing or tighten downhaul>tighten halyard>tighten outhaul>sheet in, harden vang. A lot of books say something about the topping lift; I don't touch it for reefing. We can discuss this further but it's a little tedious in writing. The topping lift should be adjusted so that it is just a bit slack when the main is sheeted in tight. That way, when you lower the halyard, the boom drops just, like 6 inches at most.
Another use for the topping lift underway is in very light air, pull the traveler up to windward and very slightly tighten the topping lift to put more camber in the sail. I never do this, too much bother.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:42 am
by glossieblack
terrulian's solution is by far the simplest way to go, if the boom drop does not threaten to make egg noddles from the noggins of those in the cockpit. :wink:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:37 pm
by Jaysen
Well it’s been an interesting couple days.

Had a 3am call with India on Thursday so worked till noon then took Friday off. Spent Thursday night on the boat. Took the stove. Made a real breakfast. That was the best burnt bacon ever.

9136

9138

9139

The winds Friday were 15kn gusts to 20kn. Invited an experienced world cruiser to help me learn how she sails. As we were going over the boat he looked at the topping lift mess. “That’s a pile of over kill” he said. We moved forward to the mast and he found an in mast line that I didn’t remember being there. I shrugged, loosed the line and the mast dropped about 6”! I have a fully adjustable topping lift. We removed the unneeded blocks and put it back together.

9140


9141

And then it became interesting. You’ll notice there are no photos…

Let me say, this little boat moves. I’m thrilled at how quick she responds to everything. You can feel the hull “jump” we you make an adjustment that powers her up a bit. We were able to make headway in 3kn current tacking nose into 15kn wind. I never expected her to behave that well.

We ran about an hour… full sails. No reefs. We agreed “nothing but tacking until we make sure everything works under load”. Several marina members gave us a “whoop” as we would past their slips. We had a couple radios calls “you did it! She’s off the dock!” That really made me smile.

Eventually I looked at Patrick and said “it’s time to run some gybes”. Three things I avoid when sailing, spinnakers, low winds, gybes. But you MUST know how a boat will handle gybes. We rocketed over to a large open area way outside of the traffic and set up for some pucker factor.

First, that lady hopped right up to speed the second I rolled the wind to 20deg off dead aft starboard. Even without the whisker the jib filled and stayed that way. Patrick and I triple checked everything and talked through our steps. Once we were comfy I called out “gybe port!” Patrick yelled back “gybe port ready”. I took a deep breath and and hollered “gybe ho!”

Everything was perfect! We were on a long line so we talked through the next gybe. We reset, presorted lines and cycled through the gybe. Hot damn! 2 controlled gybes. We couldn’t celebrate long. Short line so we scrambled to reset and sort lines.

“Gybe port!”
“Gybe port ready!”
“Gybe ho!!!”
BOOM!!!

Somehow we missed shorting the main sheet and securing the traveler car. We both saw it happening and watched the standing rigging. Nothing. Moved. She is solid! No sloppy stays. No loose plates. Solid as rodeo bull.

We were on a long run again so we took a couple minutes to go over everything. As we neared the middle flat we opted to take the long way around into a tack so we could head back to the marina. We knew we had a boat that would make short work of the trip. 20 minutes and 373635284937 tacks later we made five feet of ground back to the marina.

W. T. F. ???

We assumed we were running into some shoddy sail trimming or maybe we picked up a crab trap. We couldn’t see anything wrong. At some point we looked up at the sail trim and Patrick says “didn’t you have in mast slides on the main? And when did the jib rip?”

That uncontrolled gybe snapped 12 out of 16 sail slides and blew the seams and luff out of two mid panels. Suddenly the lack of progress made sense. We made a makeshift deeper than deep reef to get the luff tightened and magically we were back on the dock in less than 30min.

The consolation here is that these were expected failures. I knew the jib was thin and had been left in the sun with no UV layer. Those slides were probably original equipment. I set out in high winds, full sail, knowing that I would probably break something.

This morning I headed over to the boat, pulled the sails and started planning for extended dock time. I’m calling the original sailmaker from the Helms factory on Monday to figure out the options for the jib. I assume I’ll be waiting a bit to order as I need some budget recovery. While I'm waiting, the mast will be dropped, lights repairs/replaced, and sheves/blocks serviced. There will be some cleaning and painting as well.

So that’s my story for this weekend. Im not quite as crazy as Barraman, but I’m not far from it.

And just to end on a positive… the scene on my way to meet the Mrs for dinner was positively beautiful!


9142

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:58 pm
by fallguy1000
Best story on this thread is you going for it bro.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:45 am
by glossieblack
Well done Jaysen! And a great report. :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:55 pm
by TomW1
Niace report Jaysen, enjoyed the report. Don't we all have things to repair from time to time. Glad you found it now.

Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:31 pm
by Fuzz
I still think you need a go-pro set up showing the skipper doing his thing. Now that could be some Utube classic stuff :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:49 pm
by Jaysen
GoPro may be happening. More for my own review and the boss ladies amusement.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:16 pm
by terrulian
Yes, jib and main should be easily able to withstand that gybe, uncontrolled or not, in those windspeeds. I would consider it a stroke of luck that the damage was close to home, and also that it revealed needed repairs. I second the call on the topping lift.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:11 pm
by Jaysen
I knew the jib was due a replacement. Converted from hank to furler with no UV strips. It was thin. The slides are an easy fix. The main itself is solid. That’s a simple fix. Parts ordered and new METAL slides due to arrive next week.

I can’t imagine a better person at to break crap. We were never out of range of the home marina and they were ready to come rescue (advantage of working there). Luckily we were able ti keep moving under sail and the motor held up to get us in the dock.

I felt like it was a solid plan… run her under higher wind with too much sail and see what breaks. Won’t be too much longer and we will have her ready for some real sailing.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:30 am
by glossieblack
Jaysen wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:11 pm I felt like it was a solid plan… run her under higher wind with too much sail and see what breaks. Won’t be too much longer and we will have her ready for some real sailing.
Real sailing: in unexpectedly higher winds with too much sail. Suddenly wtf, the whatsit is busted. :wink:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:46 am
by Jaysen
I’m hoping to stop that particular intentional method of wallet drain. I do tend to be faster on the reef than is needed but I’m 100% certain that it will happen more than once.

Message from sailmaker has the Mrs in sticker shock. Looks like we are out of the sailing crowd for a few months until the pennies are collected. Until then I’ll start working on more electrical projects.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:33 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:46 am I’m hoping to stop that particular intentional method of wallet drain. I do tend to be faster on the reef than is needed but I’m 100% certain that it will happen more than once.

Message from sailmaker has the Mrs in sticker shock. Looks like we are out of the sailing crowd for a few months until the pennies are collected. Until then I’ll start working on more electrical projects.
Try plugging some measurements in here and see if something affordable pops up.

https://thesailwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/we ... l&cart_id=

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:12 pm
by terrulian
If I remember correctly, the Sail Warehouse was where we got the sails for our Catalina 22. They were fine.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:24 pm
by Jaysen
I’m kind of on the fence here.

I have the factory sailmaker and access to the Helms family. These guys literally built my hull. As in we talked about the layup schedule and how they improved the build over the years giving me much to think about …

While I don’t want to spend a fortune on a sail, I have to consider the potential loss of access to info/people.

That said I’m looking at several different options.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:46 pm
by Jaysen
Closest things they have were $400 more than what I’m being quoted for an original. I might call them tomorrow and see if I’m missing something obvious.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:21 pm
by Fuzz
I have been lead to believe that replacing sails is about the same cost as replacing engines for a power boat. Are you finding this to be true?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:58 pm
by Jaysen
With todays motor prices… yes. If you get a cheap, old motor, motor is cheaper.

I’m looking at $1200-1800 for a #1 jib (105) as specified by factory. I can get a #3 (130) but it will be likely to explode with the winds and my “aggressive” style of moving the boat rapidly while screaming “BRING IT” at the top of my lungs. When we started discussing the light wind sails the recommendation was “well, let’s wait for you to get a bit less young because I don’t think you’ll every use a light wind sail when I know you’ve got a big racing chute on that hull.”

Basically just replace with the same thing I just killed but get one a bit beefier.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:28 pm
by terrulian
$1250 doesn't sound like too much, if the headsail has a foam luff and UV cover. (I'm assuming roller furling.) These add some $$.
Racers will spend $10,000 annually on sails. I'm not a racer, or at least one that will invest that kind of dough.
It depends on what you want, but with respect, I think you're kidding yourself if you think expensive sails will give you a competitive edge and it's not really a race boat. So we're talking about longevity, mainly. You're right about the UV cover for the jib; the two most damaging things for sails are UV radiation and chafe. Chafe is, especially in the short term, more of a concern with the stitching. But that's is a simple repair and you just stay on top of it. Eventually, UV will deteriorate the cloth but this will take 10 years or so.
I had my 22 out by myself in 30+ more than once. This was not on purpose. I was flying the cheap sails from sail warehouse. No damage except to my underwear. Not really, but I would have preferred a little less breeze.
I get the point about a service relationship. But in my experience, that isn't necessarily something you get with a purchase; it has more to do with the guy you deal with. An expensive outfit may be snobs, not that I'd assume that. A good businessman is good to all customers, since even if you don't buy a sail from him this time, he certainly wants to form a relationship for the future.
As to size, I think I'd get about a 125 with the foam luff as mentioned above. You don't need to change down or up unless you're really picky if you can reef the headsail. (A racer would be horrified at this advice.) As to light air sails, I dunno. On our voyage we had a cruising chute and a fairly flat nylon 135. But crossing oceans you have all day to set this stuff up and nothing else to do. Getting the spinny out of it's bag in the locker was not too much trouble but when you're in the ocean it seems like every time it's blowing about right to hoist it, it's on its way to nothing or 30. The flat cut 135 was used on a pole downwind and we used it as a windseeker upwind in light air. It had a wire luff and was easy to hoist. But we didn't use it much for that unless we were bored. So what if you're not going fast?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:34 pm
by Jaysen
I’m not complaining about $1600 for my “tricked out” jib (125. 6oz Dacron, 4oz Dacron UV guard, furller luff, wire leech, additional 4oz chafing layer 6’ forward from clew and 3’ up (based on wear patterns)). I tried to balance longevity and usefulness for variable winds. I figure if I need more sail for a downwind reach, it’s time to break out the spin.

Realistically I’m not racing unless it’s someplace like the 580 globe. Mrs wouldn’t put up with the nonsense (or the $$).

I get the relationship thing. For the most part these old school shops tend to be all about the boats. Problem is that when push comes to shove, this area turns “pay to play” fast. Given the flat out “we don’t know that brand” I’m getting from every boatyard down here, having the old factory team on my side FEELS smart.

Then again, masthead tri-light isn’t inexpensive.

Luckily I’m on spending freeze because the wife knows that sailing is a disease that leads to wallet anorexia. She is very much against any wallet diseases.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:51 am
by terrulian
Why do you want a masthead tri-color? Not saying it's a bad idea, just wondering.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:52 am
by Jaysen
CG regs indicate it is required for new boats. Yes, she’s old, but if I already have to replace all the lighting up there (anchor, steaming, spreader) I can get all three in one unit and eliminate the standard bow/stern lights.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:30 pm
by terrulian
Please give me a reference for that. I don't see it anywhere, and since I teach this stuff, if there is a new reg I need to know about it.
Unless I misunderstand you or something, I really don't think the list you gave of steaming, spreader, and anchor lights are combinable. You should give me a link to that product, which doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:56 pm
by Jaysen
West marine uses “may” so I think that’s the key… https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/ ... ight-Rules

Here’s a simple tri+anchor https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0778RXZRT/re ... SY3HGJD6YN

I don’t have my links to the one that had fore and aft Pointed downward illumination. That would mimic the current lighting (fore/aft mid mast) but make it one long wiring run vs 2 separate runs.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:55 am
by terrulian
The tri-color from west marine displays running lights and anchor light and can be used on sailboats less than 20 meters. That's typical, and what I had, except mine also had a strobe for emergencies.
The tri-color cannot be legally displayed in conjunction with a steaming light, because that would result in red over white or green over white, which gives the wrong message. The steaming light has to be above red or green; so the tri-color is shut off when steaming and replaced by deck running lights and the steaming light is turned on. The arc of the steaming light is the same as the red and green combined. [Confusingly, in the rules, the steaming light is called the "masthead light" even though it isn't on the top of the mast on sailboats.] You really don't need a tri-color unless you're going offshore. There are three main reasons for it: 1) It increases the distance from which it can be seen over the curvature of the earth. 2) It uses less amps than three lights so preserves the battery. 3) You only have one bulb to fail.
The steaming light is mounted about 1/2 way up the mast, and some models also incorporate a deck light to illuminate the deck, which does something similar to spreader lights. These are rarely needed but I had them. The reason you don't want to use them is that it ruins your night vision while they're on and a little while after. If you have to go forward in the dark I find it's better to have a headlight; but if your eyes are adjusted even that isn't normally needed.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:17 am
by TomW1
Here are the USCG Regs llsted by Boat US. https://www.boatingmag.com/navlightregs/

Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:56 am
by terrulian
One sentence is a little vague there. "The white stern light must cover 135 degrees and be visible for 2 nautical miles, or you can substitute one 360-degree all-around white light." This is in addition to sidelights, not in lieu of them, unless you're under 7 meters, approximately 23 feet, and don't exceed 7 knots. I'd certainly not do that on a sailboat; in my experience it applies mostly to tenders. For some reason, even experienced sailors are sometimes seen running only their anchor light at night, which is not only illegal but dangerous. Still pretty common, which doesn't excuse it. Lights tell other mariners what you are and where you're going relative to them. This determines your status as stand-on or give-way. So you really don't want to give the other guy a puzzle.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:25 am
by Jaysen
I'm planning to wire traditional bow/stern LED nav to mast head LED nav and just call it good. I do need to relocate my stern light as, to me, it is blocked by pushpins and ladder by more than 50% of its visible spread. Also planning to put them on one switch as nothing seems to indicate that it's an either/or situation. Considering that I will be offshore at times (in areas high speed areas with less than experienced pilots), I think having something that can be seen over the horizon isn't a bad idea. While everything lists "2nm visibility" my unaided eyeball can see standard lights at about 4mi at night. It gets "twinkly" but I think that is due to wave action moving the boats. I figure putting those lights 36' above the water won't make me less visible :)

On the spreader/steaming light... I'm not sure what I want to do. I have an in mast system now. I'll probably look to revive that first. I don't like bright lights on the boat at all. I do know that we've needed them in snotty weather with lines that get messed up in bad spin retrieval. I can see needed them for similar situations or even anchor deployment. I'm all for head lamps and plan to do that. I figure that I might as well just work on getting that I have working and then figure out what I actually one to use later. Worst case I have full spreader sun for back up.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:18 pm
by terrulian
Sounds good.
What is "full spreader sun?"
You have an anchor light at the top of the mast?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:39 pm
by Jaysen
Full spreader sun is the stupid bright presser light I’m planning to put in. Need it on the dock more than anything but could see it at anchor. I will probably wire them in stages to allow “dimming”.

I have something up there but it isnt working. I’m planing to do the 2 purpose masthead with 2 switches wired (anchor, nav) for independent operation.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:21 pm
by terrulian
"Presser" light?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:30 pm
by Jaysen
That’s my phone’s interpretation of “spreader”.

Most days I hate technology. The other days I loath it.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:04 pm
by terrulian
Whatcha mean? I wouldn't know you without it.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:21 pm
by jonnymac
Jaysen wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:30 pm That’s my phone’s interpretation of “spreader”.

Most days I hate technology. The other days I loath it.
That is why i have predictive/auto spellchck off most misspellings are readable unlike the wrong word.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:56 pm
by Jaysen
You’d think. But as a proper idiot, my mistakes look a lot like

Code: Select all

Function public smartAssComment(input: String ?? “You’re momma!”) {
  let target = getMember(String(“Fuzz”))
  private var reply String
  return string(ForEach( 1 … input.length * random(1 .. 12)) { iteration in
      reply .= asci(random(1… 128))
      if iteration%random(1 … 9) { reply .= “ “ }
    }
    
    return reply
  }
  

if you understood that, then you know how I feel about tech.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:05 am
by Fuzz
All I want to know is how did I get caught up in this sheet :doh:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:09 am
by Jaysen
See how terrible technology is? Innocent bystanders pulled into random nightmares.

Although… “innocent” may be a stretch in this case.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:02 pm
by VT_Jeff
You're officially a bigger geek than I am.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:42 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:02 pm You're officially a bigger geek than I am.
Even worse, I knew it wouldn't compile when i wrote it on my phone. Looking at it now... I'm a bit embarrassed by the sloppiness.

But the thought is there. And, as I tell my wife with every gift, it's the thought that counts!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:22 am
by Jaysen

Code: Select all

function public smartAssComment(input: String ?? “Your momma!”) {
  let target = getMember(String(“Fuzz”))
  private var reply String
  ForEach( 1 … input.length * random(1 .. 12)) { iteration in
      reply .= asci(random(1… 128))
      if iteration%(random(1 … 9)) { reply .= “ “ }
    }
    
    return reply
  }
}
Fixed it. Works as expected.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:34 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:22 am

Code: Select all

function public smartAssComment(input: String ?? “Your momma!”) {
  let target = getMember(String(“Fuzz”))
  private var reply String
  ForEach( 1 … input.length * random(1 .. 12)) { iteration in
      reply .= asci(random(1… 128))
      if iteration%(random(1 … 9)) { reply .= “ “ }
    }
    
    return reply
  }
}
Fixed it. Works as expected.
Ok, ii admittedly don't know what language that is, assuming python or something, which I don't know, but.......ascii(random(1… 128) - I'm not following this: I would have expected maybe ascii(random(97-122)) or similar, but I may be missing the point.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:05 pm
by Jaysen
Swift. I’m working on an iOS app for simple logging that uses no off device services (no subscription, no privacy issues, etc).

Who says only printables are useful? Fuzz would love seeing various boxes allowing his mind to fill in the blanks.

That said, yeah. That would be a better refinement.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:47 am
by glossieblack
Enough tech wanking. When is work recommencing on the Helms for some serious 2022 sailing?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:51 am
by Jaysen
“New” sails from 1980 acquired. Parts to convert to furler (sail rite) arrived before I left town yesterday. A mature snail making in 7days. “Work from boat” will be enforced 2x per week next week. Plan is off dock for more learning runs in 14ish days. Over nights on dock about the same.

As you can’t tell… plans change pretty fast with me.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:08 am
by glossieblack
Sounding good, but beware the snail maker.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:36 am
by Jaysen
I did say that plans change.

That said, the a mature snail maker is a buddy that has shown some skill at making my crap better. Hopefully there won’t be a slime trail when we hoist the modified jib.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:40 pm
by Fuzz
Any chance you blow boat types can post in English :doh: :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:49 pm
by fallguy1000
Where's my app?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:06 am
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:40 pm Any chance you blow boat types can post in English :doh: :lol:
No. If we did folks might mistake us for “normal”.
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:49 pm Where's my app?
Which one? The simple logging app?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:47 am
by fallguy1000
Yes. I am wanting to find out more about the logging app.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:59 pm
by terrulian
Jaysen,
What was the design of the boat you were going to enter that race with, and what is the status of that race?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:45 pm
by Jaysen
Class Globe 580. A modified Sekta design (same designer). They completed the transat race. Global race in 2024.

My boat is on hold. Hull 04. Still want to build but Mrs (the smart one in this relationship) is requiring I start with the Helms. I feel like I married a really really good one.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:09 pm
by terrulian
I was looking for a thumbs-up among the emojis, but a lot of them have something to do with being dumb.

Anyway, carry on, then.

How's the Helms coming? I myself have volunteered to help an owner of a new-to-him Ericson 27 with a ton of rather alarming problems. None are irresolvable, but he's over his head and a bit overwhelmed. I got nuthin' else to do, or little, anyway.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:30 pm
by Jaysen
She’s not been getting the live she deserves. That said, I’m “borrowing” a sail rite sewing machine next week or two. I have new to me jib, furler conversion kit and old sail ready to go. New cars for main. Finally have 100% functional bilge pump. Still fighting with motor. That last one has me very angry. About to just sell the merc 9.9 and get a brand new tohatsu 9.8 sail drive with remote shift/throttle. Need to finish the bathroom remodels and outdoor shower stuff for Mrs before that one shows up though.

Break
Out
Another
Thousand.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:24 am
by glossieblack
Good to see you're back working on the Helms, that you've now got a reliable bilge pump, and that soon you'll have repaired sails. Keep at it. :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:25 am
by glossieblack
Happy birthday Jaysen! :D Any progress on the sail repair?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:34 am
by cape man
Good things come out on April 23rd. 8)

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:36 am
by Jeff
Happy Birthday Jaysen!!! You guys have a great weekend!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:49 am
by Jaysen
glossieblack wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:25 am Happy birthday Jaysen! :D Any progress on the sail repair?
Thanks GB!

The machine is going to be here Tuesday. Hopefully we will get the luff sewn and sails in the boat that weekend! The universe and I have a hate/hate relationship so I expect my plan to be undermined. But I’m still excited to be sewing the week.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:50 am
by Jaysen
cape man wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:34 am Good things come out on April 23rd. 8)
Thank you sir! My in laws disagree with you. Luckily my wife calls them names regularly and agrees with you. I’ll take that as the definitive answer. 😜

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:54 am
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:36 am Happy Birthday Jaysen!!! You guys have a great weekend!!! Jeff
Thanks Jeff. My birthday celebration involves ripping out the main bathroom and remembering why I have a career in IT and not construction. I’m hoping to find a few minutes to pass out under the dining room table but I assume the dog will give me away. On the plus side, there is a new bottle of something with a bow on it spotted this morning. Sure looks like rum!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:36 am
by Jeff
Sounds like a lot of work for your birthday but the bottle of rum sounds promising!!!! Enjoy your birthday!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:19 pm
by TomW1
Happy birthday Jaysen, nice to see you back working on the Helms.

Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:22 pm
by Jaysen
Jeff wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:36 am Sounds like a lot of work for your birthday but the bottle of rum sounds promising!!!! Enjoy your birthday!!! Jeff
You are right on all counts. The nice thing is that enjoying my day is easy. You know I married up. Way up. One smile from her and hell turns into heaven!
TomW1 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:19 pm Happy birthday Jaysen, nice to see you back working on the Helms.

Tom
Thanks Tom! Never really stopped on the helms, she just took a back seat to other issues. Once we get the sails stitched back together I hope to be able to focus on her like I have the projects for the boss lady (the one with the smile).

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:21 pm
by Fuzz
Happy birthday! One more and I will have to stop calling you "the kid".......................well maybe :P

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:19 pm
by VT_Jeff
Jaysens birthday rum was delicious but made for a rough next-morning of driving :help:

I'll give a full account once I'm home but want to note that we had an incredibly fun weekend with the odells in st helena Island and can safely say that there are exactly as many fish in those waters as there were when we arrived, so no worries there. Jaysen spoiled us with a home-cooked breakfast featuring his neighbors eggs(chicken eggs) and an incredible caught-cooked cobia and weakfish, amazing! Beyond that, many many laughs, shared stories and a few notes picked on some string boxes. Instant family!

Thanks again and happy 63rd buddy!

Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:28 pm
by Fuzz
There has to be more to the 63rd commit. Fess up :D

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:47 pm
by Jaysen
Hahahaha!!!

I know I had a bit difficult time getting my eyes open at 5:30. I may have killed another couple glasses after you and Mrs Jeff turned in.

Mrs and I were all “I wonder how we convince them to come back…” I’ll take credit for being able to not destroy some perfect pieces of fish, but they meal was made by all of us sitting at a table laughing and swapping stories. It really felt like meeting up with old friends that you know will be around for as long as you’re breathing.

Y’all, Mrs Jeff… she’s the bomb. All about the fish and the water. My wife … not so much on the fish and water yet C said “E is perfect! I love her!” If you ever get the opportunity to host, them sign up. You won’t be disappointed.

Fuzzy, I know Jeff is having a hood poke at “the old guy that is still young”. There was a moment when I realized the relative ages of everyone at the table and we all had a good laugh. That said, Jeff has met the post-Covid shell that I’ve become. I put on a good face, but it’s like having emphysema. I feel like I’m 70 and cough the minute there’s physical exertion is needed. That said, I’m still a (relative) kid on paper.

I have some rum to kill. So y’all get off my yard!

Hahahaha

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:14 am
by VT_Jeff
Fuzz wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:28 pm There has to be more to the 63rd commit. Fess up :D
I was just giving him some !@#$ cause he made a few comments about being old, getting old, etc when he's 5+ years YOUNGER than me!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:22 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:14 am
Fuzz wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:28 pm There has to be more to the 63rd commit. Fess up :D
I was just giving him some !@#$ cause he made a few comments about being old, getting old, etc when he's 5+ years YOUNGER than me!
Good thing I only feel 63.

BTW, I’m thinking of getting a case of those bottles. That stuff vanishes way too fast.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:26 am
by VT_Jeff
Jaysen wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:22 am BTW, I’m thinking of getting a case of those bottles. That stuff vanishes way too fast.
My head hurts already!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:20 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:26 am
Jaysen wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:22 am BTW, I’m thinking of getting a case of those bottles. That stuff vanishes way too fast.
My head hurts already!
If you keep drinking the hangover doesn’t get a chance to start…

That’s what I keep telling myself. Mrs was thrilled I behaved myself. Birthday weekend is normally followed by “recovery week”. She couldn’t believe that bottle has lasted. I didn’t tell her several others maybe a bit emptier this morning.

I may have a rum problem… I’m getting low!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 4:41 pm
by Jaysen
Well... there a bit more delay here.

Apparently not going to a doctor for a couple decades will catch up with you. Sunday night I had a "severe cardiac event". Luckily I knew something was brewing so I was already at the hospital when my body tried to give up on my brain. I have some metal added to keep the pump running, a pile of "that part is dead", and a lot of extra pill bottles. Start the formal "cardio rehab" junk next week. Dr has suggested that I've been "broken so long, you won't see any practical difference in what you can do AFTER rehab... don't be stupid and over do it before then though" (I like this doctor).

That said, sailing is still in the future.
Probably not happening for a couple months.
Offshore fishing likely out for a bit.
Lil Bit will be part of my rehab (talked to them earlier today).
Wife is still here but looking at me with a bit of glare (which I deserve).
BBC is still in my list of things to manage, but I may be slower to address issues or questions for a bit.

Fuzz, seems I may be overly eager to get that CLOOF status.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 5:10 pm
by Jeff
Glad you told all!!! Now, take good care and get well!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 5:21 pm
by TomW1
Well dang Jaysen sorry to hear that news. Glad you were at the Hospital when it went off. We good luck on the therapy and don't worry about the Helm's your health comes first. Get well and best wishes.

Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:53 pm
by narfi
Take care of yourself!!
Sounds like it could have been worse, so I'm glad it wasn't and you have a good plan for recovery.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 12:26 am
by fallguy1000
Be well Jaysen. The pump needs to work well.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 2:16 am
by Fuzz
Damn it kid you need to take care of yourself. Glad it was not worse and you were smart enough to go to the hospital when you needed to.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 3:53 pm
by VT_Jeff
Having just met your (absolutely lovely!) Mrs, tough to imagine her glaring. So if she actually is, I would HEED!

"no offshore fishing" Yes, probably best to not have any kind of relapse while 60 miles offshore in an 18' boat with your aspiring guitar candidate. If the TowBoatUs bill is high for a tow from there, I'm guessing a helicopter ride will also not be cheap.

I'm willing to bet that stringed instruments are high up on the 'can do' list. Pizza/hibachi/dark rum? Probably not so much.

Glad I got to visit while you were still a full 45%!

Get well. Slowly if need be, but get well!


VTJ

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 5:03 pm
by OrangeQuest
Jaysen wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:41 pm Well... there a bit more delay here.

I have some metal added to keep the pump running, a pile of "that part is dead", and a lot of extra pill bottles. Start the formal "cardio rehab" junk next week. Dr has suggested that I've been "broken so long, you won't see any practical difference in what you can do AFTER rehab... don't be stupid and over do it before then though" (I like this doctor).
Hmm? not enough detail to know what you are saying other than the heart lacked blood supply and some of the heart looks like cauliflower cause of it? Did you get a bypass and they used wire to pull your chest back together? I know that is how I got metal in my chest. Now days they can do wonders without cracking you open. After my quadruple bypass I was back a few years later and got 3 stints put in through the wrist, but they still shave your groin area.

My doctor said I could still drink as long as I didn't drink to the point of not standing any more but told me no more smoking, ZERO. Which that was almost 20 years ago. Side note: I switched from coffee to black and green tea in the morning and then herbal teas in the afternoon (to reduce caffeine intake) and it stopped my drinking habit to the point my doctor was excited about my blood work showing my liver is recovering. Small wins, but it also stabilized my blood pressure to the point it is normal again, another small win.

Doctor tells you to exercise more but ask him/her how much is to much? Ask were your heart rate should be when you exercise and more important, how fast should you return to a resting heart rate? One will start needing to go higher and one will recover faster and be lower. Or you are not putting in enough effort.

Two things, good HRM and a oximeter. Oh, and a good blood pressure monitor with bluetooth. You cardiologist can explain why these are needed and important to have AND USE. One with spreadsheets should make you happy and give you lots of data to track.

Doctors did what they can for you, now the rest is up to you and habits you want to change.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 7:12 am
by glossieblack
Been off the air for a few days Jaysen, so missed your attempted shortcut to CLOOFdom. Sounds as though it went as well as could be expected. So now, JUST GET WELL.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:50 am
by Jaysen
Sorry for "ghosting" y'all. Had a bad couple days there.

Here's the short statement of what was wrong, what they did, and what I actually know:
  • * 2x100% occulsions
    * multiple "greater than 50%"
    * one of the 100% addressed with a stint
    * the "greater than 50%" where somehow opened backup without a stint (for now)
    * the local hospital could not address one of the 100%; consult with other hospitals and they left it in place as "the tissue is 100% dead"
    * that one blockage appears to be more than 2yr old. No idea when I had that heart attack.
    * because of how long it has been they expect me to have the same lifestyle as before
    * because I live amidst "lots of old people" I don't actually see anyone for follow-up until the week of the 16. The cardiologist is end of May. I'm a tad "wtf does Q mean" where Q is ... every little thing.
OQ, I had already been on the correct diet and using BP cuff since about 2010. I had been ignoring the BP though as I don't like the meds. That was my big mistake. Had I gone to the DR a couple of years back, when it started creeping up, I would have avoided this whole thing. I've now been fully chastised and have taken my lumps on that front. On the diet front here's a typical day before:
7a: 2 pineapple ring with 1/4 cup fat free cottage cheese; coffee or tea. After breakfast nothing but water to drink until lunch.
10a: 1/4 cup trailmix with extra nuts (I make it myself most times)
12: mix greens with olives and fetta cheese topped with infused olive oil and flavored vinegar; glass of not-quite-sweet tea. Back to only water.
2&4: half apple
6p: Fish cooked low fat, green salad, spicy green beans, rice (VT Jeff experienced this one but with some "visitor" flavor added); another cup o' tea.
8p: Popcorn and a beer.
I don't salt much when I cook and I almost never add salt to my meal. I actually complained about how salty the "low salt" meals were at the hospital.

Up to a week before "the event" (that's how the wife prefers I refer to it) I was running 1.5 miles before breakfast at least 3x per week. The last week I was so ill I couldn't manage it. As of today, I'm pulling my 1/4mi morning walk in 6min which is the "don't go faster than" point the cardiologist mentioned. I'm upping the walk to 0.35mi tomorrow and I've I'm still unaffected (heart rate not exceeding 90bpm) I'll move to 0.5mi. I'm definitely not ready to "run" but I'm super frustrated with the lack of "do something". I would spend more time on the computer but after about 10min I start to get a terrible headache. I'm hoping I can pick up the yard or rake leaves jut to burn off some energy soon.

Thank you all for the well wishes. I'm sure I'll be back to my "normal" self in short order. Just not easy waiting to get there.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 9:58 am
by Jeff
Take care of yourself!!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 3:27 pm
by TomW1
Yes, take care of yourself, do not want to lose you. Tom

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 10:56 pm
by Fuzz
My big question about this whole deal is does this mean I got to be nice to you now :doh:

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 5:34 am
by OrangeQuest
That is funny that you picked up on the salt in "low salt" food in the hospital. That means you really have cut back on you salt intake and can taste the salt in food again. And others around you think you are crazy that you taste salt when they do not. Some foods taste a lot different without all the salt huh?

When I was exercising to strengthen what is left of my heart, it was how fast I would get back down to my resting heart rate (RHR) that mattered the most. On my heart rate monitor I could set a max limit and a lower limit alarm. If I needed/wanted a rest. I would stop till my lower limit alarm would sound and get back on the bike. It didn't take to long that that lower limit alarm would sound even if I slowed down to much. Then I started riding on the mountain bike trails in my area, talk about reaching your max limit extremely fast. 8O I don't remember riding a bike being so scary!

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 7:08 am
by Jaysen
Fuzz wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:56 pm My big question about this whole deal is does this mean I got to be nice to you now :doh:
I don’t think so. I mean if you want to no one will stop you. But they may be disappointed.

OQ, yeah. I tend to not season much. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll spice things up, but I don’t like to hide the flavor the good lord put into things.

As to heart rate recovery, from 170-120 in about 45 seconds PRIOR to the event. That’s kind of the confusing part for me. I’ve been running for nearly a decade and the external indicators where “fat but not going to die”. Clearly I was wrong on that.

On positive news, Mary (the dog) and I just returned from a 1/2mi walk around the neighborhood. Feel fine. Hopefully this trend will continue.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 9:21 am
by Jeff
Good news Jaysen!!! Stay the course and get well!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:40 am
by Jaysen
It's been a bit.

Much to the wife's dismay the ducks (they quack --> doctors) have said "eh... you're doomed anyway so get back to living." Bending sails on this neglected girl next week. Calling the diver to scrub ber posterior all smooth and sexy after I post this. If all goes "well" y'all may be tortured with sailing and repair photos in the coming weeks.

In the meantime, I've FINALLY figured out what is going wrong with my 9.9 mercury 2-stroke motor... the vacuum-driven fuel pump doesn't suck hard enough (unlike the Dr on my wallet) to keep the carb bowl full when connected to my internal fuel tank. It will manage 1.5' head but I have 2.8'. My plan is to put a low pressure, pressure driven, electric fuel pump at the tank side to ensure the bowl is always full. If I do this in the "old car" ('75 MG) with great success. Plan is to have a cockpit switch that is driven off the A/B bus to prevent unattended leaks from a pressurized system. I have plenty of old "engine harness" that will be recycled to make it happen. Anyone see any problems with this plan?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:37 am
by fallguy1000
Well, if the fuel pump 'pushes' fuel into a gravity system, the concern would be what does it do afa regular flow.

And the answer is probably to push excess fuel into the carb bowl, raise the float and keep it closed.? Of course, the float is supposed to negate all that, but then how is the float not always up if pressure fills the bowl.

I don't think it will work. Sorry. I'd be modifying the home of the fuel tank. I've seen them on the back of a few boats even.

As a side note, I have a 18hp vanguard mower engine that leaks gas down into the cylinders...probably float stuck down...

Maybe my logic is wrong, but I foresee a new engine in your future.

Or, a different engine with a tank on it...sorry

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:06 am
by OrangeQuest
The float could be pushed off seat and over fill the bowl and may need a float level adjustment. But if the float can't float enough to close the needle and seat then it will flood easily. If you could put a return back to the tank so the motor pump only gets what it needs and nothing more. The return side would just need a restriction to keep fuel to the motor without much pressure. The system would stay pressurized after the switch is turn off due to the check valves in the motor pump, so just turning power off would not de-pressurize the system.

I am with Fallguy, get the tank higher to use the motor pump, safer and less headaches down the road. Even if it means storing the fuel tank in another place when not in use and then moving it to higher ground when needed.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:08 am
by Jaysen
cross poseted with OQ...

There really is only one spot for the tank. I'd have to go to a standard tank laying in the cockpit floor to make the motor "work as designed". The solution is the same one us old car people have to use when we move to e15 based fuel lines... positive pressure in the system. It's basically the same thing you do with a primer bulb. All the pump will do is ensure there is always pressure to the float (like if you were constantly squeezing the bulb like I have to do to get back on the dock)

pump pulls from tank (neg pressure)
pump pushes to carb (pos pressure)
float closes bowl input (pos pressure)
Bowl feeds jet (neg pressure)
Jet feeds cylinder (neg pressure)

A $30 fuel pump is much closer to the budget than a $4k 4smoke motor. Especially since we are still in the "do we really want to keep this boat" stage with the Boss. I do have a motor in mind but it actually needs a pump by design. At least that's what the tech told me. Granted that's and EFI motor so....

Also, on motor tanks tend to be problematic. Biggest issues are the fuel selectors corroding as well as water getting in them when you refill off the dock (which will happen given that I'm pushing 4k displacement with a larger wind profile). I have seen one persons that replumbed the "external tank" input to fill the on-motor tank via a pump from the in-hull tank. Not sure I'd want to invalidate the warranty on a brand new motor....

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:34 pm
by narfi
Do you have room for a small 1-2ish?? Gal tank at the proper level? Then use a float in it to control your electric pump filling it and your engine can pump easily from it?

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:42 pm
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:08 am cross poseted with OQ...

There really is only one spot for the tank. I'd have to go to a standard tank laying in the cockpit floor to make the motor "work as designed". The solution is the same one us old car people have to use when we move to e15 based fuel lines... positive pressure in the system. It's basically the same thing you do with a primer bulb. All the pump will do is ensure there is always pressure to the float (like if you were constantly squeezing the bulb like I have to do to get back on the dock)

pump pulls from tank (neg pressure)
pump pushes to carb (pos pressure)
float closes bowl input (pos pressure)
Bowl feeds jet (neg pressure)
Jet feeds cylinder (neg pressure)

A $30 fuel pump is much closer to the budget than a $4k 4smoke motor. Especially since we are still in the "do we really want to keep this boat" stage with the Boss. I do have a motor in mind but it actually needs a pump by design. At least that's what the tech told me. Granted that's and EFI motor so....

Also, on motor tanks tend to be problematic. Biggest issues are the fuel selectors corroding as well as water getting in them when you refill off the dock (which will happen given that I'm pushing 4k displacement with a larger wind profile). I have seen one persons that replumbed the "external tank" input to fill the on-motor tank via a pump from the in-hull tank. Not sure I'd want to invalidate the warranty on a brand new motor....
What happens when the pump is dead heading when the bowl is closed? Maybe Ken's idea for a return line?

The headaches pumping seem bigger than making a tank platform for a one gallon tank.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:56 pm
by Jaysen
narfi wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:34 pm Do you have room for a small 1-2ish?? Gal tank at the proper level? Then use a float in it to control your electric pump filling it and your engine can pump easily from it?
I thought about that. Still trying to figure out how I would vent it properly. There isn’t much room in the cockpit thanks to tiller and transom mounted nonsense. Also not sure how I’d manage the shut off float (mostly because I haven’t looked). Honestly, this would be my ideal choice to make this work. Reality is that I could use a really small tank (a couple cups) as the fuel pumps are pretty quiet and it wouldn’t even be detectable over the 2 smoke noise.

Re: Jaysen's Helms 24

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:02 pm
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:42 pm What happens when the pump is dead heading when the bowl is closed? Maybe Ken's idea for a return line?

The headaches pumping seem bigger than making a tank platform for a one gallon tank.
The pump shuts off until line pressure drops to a set level (can be set to 0psi). I was planning to use the same pump I have in the MG which is the ONLY thing that never seems to malfunction. Basically the carb bowl become the intermediate tank in theory.

As I noted on narfi’s post, I wanted a transfer tank style setup but it feels fragile.