Page 1 of 1

HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:20 pm
by narfi
Ordered a used 420 class mainsail off of ebay today, so I guess I am committed to this project now :)

Looking at building a mast for it possibly before spring and then have the plans finalized for beams and outriggers by spring with all supplies ordered to start as soon as epoxy curing temperatures start.
My rough idea is a 10-12ish ft total beam and roughly 200lbs flotation from each of the 12ft long outriggers made from 1 sheet of 4mm apiece.
Not sure if the box beams will be plywood or 1x4s, the advantage of the 1x4s is I could get them in 12ft sticks and not need any splicing..... will have to figure it out :P

Still doing a little rough research on the mast but I like the basics behind this hollow one,
https://www.idniyra.org/old/articles/mast_made_easy.htm

I have never touched a sail, or even looked at one up close..... so will wait till it is here and I can touch and look at it to make sure my head is fully wrapped around the luff track and dimensions of the boltrope etc....
I think I may modify the idea I linked a little in making it slightly wider at the trailing edge and using pex tubing embedded a little deeper, wrapping the whole thing in glass then cutting the groove on my table saw.

I talked to the park historian here and even though we live on a huge 60 mile long lake he doesn't have any record of sailing taking place, he has pictures of some old Bristol Bay double enders modified with engines, but none with masts or sails (showing in the picture). He assumes that there may have been some small primitive sailing on canoes but again no actual records showing it. All kind of interesting considering how big a body of water we live on.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:41 pm
by Jeff
Cool project Narfi!!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:46 am
by narfi
The sail got delivered yesterday, the red stripe looks like it will match his canoe pretty well, so a red and white canoe with a matching red and white sail will look pretty sharp :)


The bolt rope goes along the full leading edge(luff) and the foot has no bolt rope but a track slug(is that the right term?)  at the clew. So even though it looks like it only needs it toward the end, I will probably build the boom identical to the mast with a track built in.

I didn't have time yesterday to take measurements on the slugs and boltrope, but when I have time I will measure and come up with some sample track ideas to test with it.

It looks like the 420 uses spreaders on the mast, is there any need for that if anchoring the shrouds further out(out at the outriggers instead of close in like the 420 dinghy has)?It seems the simplest would be to have 2 shrouds and 2 stays all to the top of the mast and anchored furthest out in each direction. Am I missing something obvious?

Playing around with shapes and sizes and configurations in solidworks, self teaching as I go. I have a student license 'free' with my EAA membership and always intend to learn more and do more with it but always end up faking it when I actually want to do something productive :P I can use it to get myself good 2d panel shapes from my 3d hulls which is probably all I will use it for other than rough 'looks' of everything sitting together. I figured out how to get the curved panels dimensioned out where I can read and trace them on plywood which is good enough for me, from there it will be easy to cut out and stitch everything together just like I did my other boats designed by people who actually knew what they were doing.
s-l1600.jpg
20170910_163444.jpg
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (96.23 KiB) Viewed 3540 times

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:31 pm
by Jeff
Nice sail!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:47 am
by pee wee
As regards the shroud placement, wider would be better if you have a strong place to tie to. I wonder if the outriggers will be that place.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:50 am
by cape man
All sails have a center of effort that will give you the best place to position the mast, which will greatly influence performance, especially when sailing upwind. When I was playing with all this for the cedar strip canoe, I had the sail made for the boat and the mast position (just behind the forward seat). You might ask the manufacturer where that is on that sail before you decide where the mast goes.

Here's a quick read on the topic. There are lots of others....

https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2 ... -sail-plan

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:20 am
by narfi
It is a 420 class mainsail. That class has pretty strict regulations on size and dimensions etc......
https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents ... 22945].pdf

I over thought weight and balance and placement in my fs17, so with this being so much smaller I was planning on a 'looks good' approach knowing that if I had a big breakfast that morning it will change everything anyways. (of course it should be close to start with)
My thought was also behind the front seat, well actually the crossbeam just behind the front seat with the mast up against it. I will take more measurements and calculations in the spring when I can dig the canoe out from under the shed (we finally have snow here!)
I know I moved the seats from the original HC14 plans, but cant remember exactly which direction or by how much so will need to get actual measurements off of it.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:29 am
by narfi
I started making a test sample for the mast and boom last night.
This is the two halves just sitting against each other, I need to plain the inside joining surfaces flush with each other and route the track groove in before flying them together. I don't have any wood flour left so just used some fairing mix to thicken it for the test samples.
20210129_072209.jpg
It's 1x4 sides(3/4x3.5) and the angles are each 1/2 of a ripped 1x4.

Once it is all carved down and shaped should be roughly a 3x4 airfoil shape..... Not sure why that is better than a simple box, but does make the track easier I guess.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:34 am
by Jaysen
I thought about this over night...

I have some concerns about needing stays/shrouds on this thing...

1. The stays/shrouds will put a lot of downward pressure on the keel seam under the mast and a lot of upward pressure on the thwarts (or wherever you decide to attach them).
2. Stays/shrouds need to be tensioned properly. That means lots of setup time.
3. Stays are kind of a performance things in little scooters. Like race performance. I think you will get MORE than enough speed and might want to consider #2 over performance.

I think I would recommend a config that uses a capturing step and a mast partner over stays/shrouds. A lot simpler.

You also need to consider the CoE of the sail for the location of the dagger/lee board. if you don't get the right balance you wind up with either a frustrating or a dangerous end state. If the CoE is behind the dagger, you wind up with "weather helm" where the boat constantly points into the wind. This is frustrating as you wind up fighting to keep her on course. If you get COE in front of the dagger you have the apposite problem... always pointing lee. The problem here is that you wind up with a serious gybe potential and an increased risk of pitchpole/bow stuffage.

All the plans I have show the CoE aligned with the keel/dagger (it is actually aligned with the "center of resistance" on the non-BBC plans, I don't see a marked point on the BBC plans).

Might be worth asking JM to weigh in on mast and dagger/lee board placement.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:40 am
by Jaysen
narfi wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:29 am Once it is all carved down and shaped should be roughly a 3x4 airfoil shape..... Not sure why that is better than a simple box, but does make the track easier I guess.
the sail is a wing. Literally. The mast is the leading edge. Also literally. Performance sailing and "big boats" really need shaping to reduce the turbulence of the transition from mast to sail. If you use a rotating mast the "best shape" changes to a lower profile. At the same time, a rotating mast can be less "profiled" with less impact as the sail can be shaped to reduce the impact of the turbulence.

It's all theory. Since you're not racing I wouldn't get too hung up on it. I might suggest a simple round mast with a lashed on sail as the simplest to get you started.

I've done a bit of reading on sail performance lately :)

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:52 am
by narfi
Jaysen wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:34 am I thought about this over night...

I have some concerns about needing stays/shrouds on this thing...

1. The stays/shrouds will put a lot of downward pressure on the keel seam under the mast and a lot of upward pressure on the thwarts (or wherever you decide to attach them).
2. Stays/shrouds need to be tensioned properly. That means lots of setup time.
3. Stays are kind of a performance things in little scooters. Like race performance. I think you will get MORE than enough speed and might want to consider #2 over performance.

I think I would recommend a config that uses a capturing step and a mast partner over stays/shrouds. A lot simpler.
Yes, functionality over performance for sure, though I do want it to look nice and be enjoyable to play with. (both for me and the upcoming batch of teenagers)
This is where my lack of experience really shines..... a big stick poking up into the sky with a kite attached to it....... is two points of attachment a foot apart enough to fight that much leverage? I even had someone go the other direction with recommending that I would likely need spreaders to prevent the mast from acting like a wet noodle.... I just don't know the physics of it, nor the math to calculate anything like that other than reverse engineering or following someone elses plans.

Jaysen wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:34 am You also need to consider the CoE of the sail for the location of the dagger/lee board. if you don't get the right balance you wind up with either a frustrating or a dangerous end state. If the CoE is behind the dagger, you wind up with "weather helm" where the boat constantly points into the wind. This is frustrating as you wind up fighting to keep her on course. If you get COE in front of the dagger you have the apposite problem... always pointing lee. The problem here is that you wind up with a serious gybe potential and an increased risk of pitchpole/bow stuffage.

All the plans I have show the CoE aligned with the keel/dagger (it is actually aligned with the "center of resistance" on the non-BBC plans, I don't see a marked point on the BBC plans).

Might be worth asking JM to weigh in on mast and dagger/lee board placement.
yes, I was going to figure out daggerboard placement last as I do know they need to be balanced with the sail. I am planning to put them in the outriggers just so that its one less thing attached to the original canoe, I am sure I will need to do a few minor attaching modifications to the canoe but when its done ideally I can just bolt the canoe to beams and launch, then when I want a canoe I can unbolt it and its ready to go.... simple in my mind anyways......

My main project right now is the airplane, but I purchased the plans before they were completed, so this is my 'stay out of trouble' project while I am waiting for more things to do on it. It will at least keep my brain busy during the winter, and then hopefully have it figured out enough in the spring that when I have a good window to do the work put it all together. Its good and bad.... good that I can ponder things longer and sort out little details, bad in that things are simpler for me when I am physically doing them and stuff begins to make more sense and fall together more easily. (at this point I don't know what I am over thinking and what I am underthinking)

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:54 am
by piperdown
I wish you guys would stop talking in a foreign language because not even Google translate is helping me figure out what you are saying...... :lol:

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:00 pm
by narfi
piperdown wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:54 am I wish you guys would stop talking in a foreign language because not even Google translate is helping me figure out what you are saying...... :lol:
Me either.....
College was easy for me, math, science, English, economics, etc... never took notes, hardly did homework, showed up and aced all the tests. Hardest I ever worked was Spanish, I studied hours every day religiously took notes in class, went over the homework multiple times, etc.... midway through the class I went to the teacher and asked if there was any way I would be able to pass, extra credit, anything, she said 'no', so I had to get a special drop for the class so I wouldn't have the marks against me. My brain just cant process other languages :/ and 'sailing' seems to be a language of its own.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:20 pm
by narfi
narfi wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:52 am
yes, I was going to figure out daggerboard placement las
Just realized this is simple, I just need to place the daggerboards same distance from the mast as they do the centerboard on the 420 which is well documented.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:10 pm
by Jaysen
narfi wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:20 pm [quote=narfi post_id=484328 time=<a href="tel:1611939129">1611939129</a> user_id=79866]

yes, I was going to figure out daggerboard placement las
Just realized this is simple, I just need to place the daggerboards same distance from the mast as they do the centerboard on the 420 which is well documented.
[/quote]

This changes if you plant them out on the outriggers. Consider the placement in three dimensions. Your thinking is longitudinal placement on the keel line. Now consider how infrequently the wind will be a directly on the beam. As the wind moves off that beam angle (and you move the sail to accommodate) the CoE moves forward. When wind is dead aft on a shroudless config the CoE is actually even with the mast. We are still considering this from the “beam” view.

Now move to a transom view and you’ll see that the CoE not only moves forward but OUTWARD. You now have a lever created between the CoE/boom and the CoR/keel with the mast as the fulcrum. The CoR is countering the push of the sail against 2 different fulcrums in 3 dimensions.

Now factor in moving the CoR out to an outrigger. As the CoE moves forward you actually have a LARGER change in the relative resistance of to the forces created. The net effect is to magnify the apparent distance with between the CoE and CoR. AKA the CoR is more AFT than it actually is.

Look for some plans showing cameraman profiles (tris even better). All the ones I’ve looked at show the CB/keels further forward than they would be on a mono. The other change you will see is that the keel/cb shoe is shallower and looooong. My understanding is that it effectively addresses most of the issues while allowing for a shallow draft.

That’s how I understand it anyway.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:54 pm
by narfi
Here is the 420 outline,

Image

and a picture of a big cat,

Image

very unscientifically they look similarly placed, I will do a lot more research for sure.

As to keels vs daggerboards vs centerboards vs a combination..... I have seen all of them in different multihulls but the two dominate ones are long shallow 'mini keels' used for cruising boats, they offer more boyancy less work or maintenance and a flat surface to beach on if you want, the downside being they can not reach as high(a big issue with multihulls I guess) and they are deeper draft(even though mini, they are always there), the other being daggerboards which you see on more performance oriented racing or performance cruising multihulls, they do require active adjustment, when pulled up they have a much shallower draft and when deployed can reach much higher. (If I am using the terms properly....) Sometimes a boat with a daggerboard will have very tiny beeching keels as well but they do not seem as common, most are either keels or daggerboards.
Of course this is all talking about larger boats which has been primarily what I have read and researched about this last year, I am now looking more into smaller solutions for this project which may or may not be the same or different.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:31 pm
by Jaysen
I'm irritated that I could not find anything with clear COE marked...

Here is a cat that has the closest numbers to a 420 that I could find with a profile elevation: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/yacht ... -catamaran

Here is the 420: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/420

Another key point with all of this is the difference between multi sail (main + jib) and single sail (main only). The weighted CoE for each sail is factored into a multi sail configuration.

edit: This is fun for me. I'm sure you will find the right combo for you all up there.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:17 pm
by narfi
Jaysen wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:31 pm Another key point with all of this is the difference between multi sail (main + jib) and single sail (main only). The weighted CoE for each sail is factored into a multi sail configuration.

edit: This is fun for me. I'm sure you will find the right combo for you all up there.
Something good to look at for sure,
I realize that a main sail will be different than a main+jib, however those boats are sailed with one or both without moving location so there must be a compromise chosen there right?

yes fun for me too, I enjoy the conversation and thought process, hopefully I haven't done or said anything to discourage it :)

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:18 pm
by Jaysen
narfi wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:17 pm
Jaysen wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:31 pm Another key point with all of this is the difference between multi sail (main + jib) and single sail (main only). The weighted CoE for each sail is factored into a multi sail configuration.

edit: This is fun for me. I'm sure you will find the right combo for you all up there.
Something good to look at for sure,
I realize that a main sail will be different than a main+jib, however those boats are sailed with one or both without moving location so there must be a compromise chosen there right?

yes fun for me too, I enjoy the conversation and thought process, hopefully I haven't done or said anything to discourage it :)
You have not. I just wanted you to know I'm enjoying the thinking since I'm not "building" right now.

On multis sail configs, there is a HUGE compromise when sailing single. The only time there isn't is downwind. Then the goal is balancing to keep the boom under pressure and the bow out of the waves (if you look at symmetrical spinnakers under full wind you will see how they lift the bow when compared to wing and wing jib+main). In my experience, a fractional rig relies on the jib to counter act HUGE weather helm as wind increases. In mast head configurations, the main us used to counter the jib push to windward. The term "jib driven" or "main driven" is what folks use to differentiate the power sail from the balance sail in the racing community here.

It seems like a "duh" moment when you think about it. If you have a massive jib compared to the main, the jib is going to provide more power. If the main is larger, then the main provides power. But since the MOST power comes from both sails, the designers of race hulls will design from that starting point. that means if you reduce sail via reef, or if you douse a sail, you will have handling issues. I can verify that a J30 (main driven) handles like crap with just the main, just the sail, or unequal reefing. Same with a Beneteau (jib driven) 523, 473 and 323.

For you and your crew, if you are planning on just one sail, just work then CoE on the sail, then plant the CoR under it. Given how small the whole thing is, I would be tempted to just run a skeg down the keel of each outrigger with a leeboard on the canoe (at CoE) if you find it is needed.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:24 pm
by VT_Jeff
narfi wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:17 pm those boats are sailed with one or both without moving location so there must be a compromise chosen there right?
My current boat (C&C 29MKII) sails great under jib alone, my previous 2 boats did not.

As you move the CoE forward and aft, you're going to add helm, lee and weather(edited, I think it's right now...) respectively. So under jib alone, CoE moves forward, more Lee helm. Main alone, CoE moves aft, more Weather helm. A safe boat should have some weather helm so in case you fall off, it will circle you like a jetski(not really).

I would get the mast and the outriggers on, clamp a leeboard to the canoe and sail it for a while on different points of sail, move the board around, see what feels good. I think Jaysen recommended about the same.

Awesome project BTW!

Edit; I'm feeling lysdexic trying to remember the weather/vs lee details, been too long since I thought about that stuff.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:03 pm
by narfi
Jaysen wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:18 pm
For you and your crew, if you are planning on just one sail, just work then CoE on the sail, then plant the CoR under it. Given how small the whole thing is, I would be tempted to just run a skeg down the keel of each outrigger with a leeboard on the canoe (at CoE) if you find it is needed.
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:24 pm As you move the CoE forward and aft, you're going to add helm, lee and weather(edited, I think it's right now...) respectively. So under jib alone, CoE moves forward, more Lee helm. Main alone, CoE moves aft, more Weather helm. A safe boat should have some weather helm so in case you fall off, it will circle you like a jetski(not really).

I would get the mast and the outriggers on, clamp a leeboard to the canoe and sail it for a while on different points of sail, move the board around, see what feels good. I think Jaysen recommended about the same.

Awesome project BTW!
The thought was to play with it with the mainsail till I got bored and if it was successful buy a matching 420 jib and play with it getting it all setup as well, in my mind it was less of a learning curve doing one at a time....... But maybe I should commit to a plan?

I think the skeg idea with temporary leeboard before placing daggerboards is the wisest idea and I will probably talk myself into it, however it would be nice to get trunk and boards in during the building stage instead of as a planned afterthought.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:23 pm
by VT_Jeff
Mmmm. I see the dilemma now. Multiple mast locations may be the simplest route in that case, some wooden boat guys do that so they can adjust the mast location for when they do/don't use a mizzen, as an example. If you add a jib, mast moves back.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:38 pm
by Jaysen
narfi wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:03 pm But maybe I should commit to a plan?
Yes. No.

Yes. You should commit to a plan. You should have a sail plan so you can make the educated decisions for your modifications.

No. You don't need to commit to a plan. You built the hulls. You can change it ALL later.

Make sense?

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:07 am
by narfi
Amazon still hasn't shipped the router bits I ordered last month. The joy of living off the grid....... Can't walk down to the hardware store when I want something 'right now'.

Got bored yesterday and cut the mating faces of my test halves and drew a preliminary profile on it, I'm pretty happy with it I think, will see how it all goes together once I have the bits I need.
20210216_164508.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:21 pm
by narfi
Got the test piece finished and slit the track open on the back. Freehand on the table saw I couldn't even stay straight for 8 inches so will need to make a good jig for the real thing.....

The bolt rope slides well in it and holds firm as does the top slug and the foot slugs.

I'm happy with it!
When making the long pieces I will let the inside glass cure before bonding the halves together. This will serve two purposes. 1. No fear of it sagging down from the top half while curing. 2. I can sand the center section smooth to prevent abrasion if I decide to run the lines up the inside. The cotton string holding the glass tape together stands up kind of sharp when wetted with epoxy, so I can sand that smooth without compromising the glass(which is probably overkill anyways)

I weighed the test piece at 450g and 8.25 inches long. So a 21ft length should weigh about 30.5lbs. seems kind of heavy, but no problem for me to muscle around and the canoe can hold it, so for a fun experiment project it should work fine.

20210302_164007.jpg
20210302_163955.jpg
20210302_163929.jpg
20210302_163854.jpg
20210302_163802.jpg
20210302_163743.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:40 pm
by VT_Jeff
narfi wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:21 pm Got the test piece finished and slit the track open on the back.
Really impressive, Narfi, nice work! And now you know how to make your airplane wings.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:48 pm
by narfi
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:40 pm Really impressive, Narfi, nice work! And now you know how to make your airplane wings.
hehe, if I made an aircraft part that heavy....... o.0
The plane I am building is aluminum, so a different material and method completely. However I would love to build some composite wings some day, would just need to be much much lighter and more controlled than this :P

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:02 pm
by VT_Jeff
narfi wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:48 pm
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:40 pm Really impressive, Narfi, nice work! And now you know how to make your airplane wings.
hehe, if I made an aircraft part that heavy....... o.0
The plane I am building is aluminum, so a different material and method completely. However I would love to build some composite wings some day, would just need to be much much lighter and more controlled than this :P
:lol:

Just being a wise-ass, as you probably guessed. It is a nearly perfect foil shape though! I am planning on building a sail/row boat next and the thought of a birds-mouth mast has me a little.....petrified, but your experiment is giving me ideas and maybe a little courage. People make them solid also, but the birds-mouth is pretty cool.

Can't wait to see that rig screaming with the rail buried, keep up the great work!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:35 pm
by narfi
Good comedy sometimes requires the straight man, right? That's what I was trying :P
In other words, its all in good fun for me too.

The birdsmouth looks interesting, but intimidating. The thing with any of these is they really are simple, it just seems difficult till you get down to doing it, then you wonder why you were ever afraid of it to start with :P

If I was going to go into this with a new construction knowing what I know now and buying all the supplies up front.... I would strongly look into doing just like I am now, but instead of wood and glass using foam and unidirectional carbon. I think it could be built just as simple, yet much much lighter. It is so easy to build up the two halves and bond them together and profile them to any shape you want. I just don't know the engineering to know how much carbon and how thick for the foam of what density, etc....

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:24 am
by narfi
So I made up the 2 halves of the mast and 2 halves of the boom. Currently 23ft and 12ft I will cut down to whatever I decide on final lengths.........
Brought over a bunch of clamps, but most of them were 1/2" short :/ so wasn't able to clamp it all as much as I would have liked, but checking this morning it turned out fine :)

Was thinking I would start long, always easier to cut something down than add to it.... So perhaps I'll cut them to 470 class dimensions instead of 420 as that is also a cheap and easy sail set to buy used. If I am happy with this setup I'll trim it all down to match, or if I decide I want to upgrade after a season I still have that option......

Thinking about daggerboard placement and balance, I thought up a Rube Goldberg solution where I build the cases 3x too long and wide enough to fit another case inside, then I can play with balance shimming the 'removable' case fore and aft to compare characteristics...... Still thinking about it.

Found some bs1088 mereniti at a local (anchorage) hardware store and bought out their last 5 sheets of 4mm and 1 sheet of 6mm. It's so much cheaper than okoumme, I hope it works ok.

Got my order from Jeff and Reid, some glass and tapes and epoxy and more importantly for yesterday wood flour to glue these mast halves up with.

Snowed AGAIN last night, it is a winter nightmare here, car hasn't been out of our driveway since Thanksgiving and the honda barely gets out on its own tracks, even it's packed down trail is probably a foot above ground right now..... Only reason it can still make it is because it's light enough to go on top of what it packs down each fresh snowfall.

Breakup is going to be a nightmare this year, worried about flooding in the basement and I'm sure the tent is going to be a mudhole for a while as well.

Did get more info on our plane though, so we will be able to stay busy till it's warm enough to do epoxy work.
20210407_212510.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:13 pm
by Fuzz
Whats the deal? Did you scare spring off? This sucks and it is coming down like mad over here now.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:17 pm
by narfi
Edit for anyone reading this later: These panels worked, but I messed up dimensions and the bulkheads needed to be cut down, so the total volume is less than I originally planned even though the panels did fit together nicely.

I have the mast shaped and outside glassed but then the sunny days stopped and its not getting warm enough for me to want to keep tempting the epoxy not to work.
I ran out of airplane plans again so simi focusing on this project till I get more. I think I have my plans finalized for the hull panels and will cut them out this weekend if all goes well.

If anyone wants to look them over and tell me to STOP!!! before cutting, feel free..... I am just faking it, but its been kind of fun trying to figure it all out.

I made a little zip file with everything in it, but doesnt look like I can upload it here, will see if the PDFs work or not,
Here is the 'readme' I put in the zip.
Narfi's first attempt at outriggers.

All panels are measured on 12inch lines.
Draw a vertical line every 12inches and mark the measurements for each side from the edge of plywood, use those marks to draw a fair curve.
Bulkhead station numbers are measured in inches from the transom. 24 is 24inches from the transom, 48 is 48inches, etc....

Each hull is made up of 2x bottom panels to form a V shaped rocker on the bottom (it is not a single panel flat bottom), 2x chine panels, 2x upper panels, and 1 deck.
If you want a flat bottom instead of the V, make it 8" wide in the center 138 inches long with a fair curve, this should stitch nicely to the bottom of the chine panels.
The hulls are 12ft long so the first 8ft of each panel can be cut from a sheet of plywood and the last 4 cut sideways on another.
Doing this Two hulls can be made from 3 sheets of plywood excluding the upper deck, transom and bulkheads.

I plan to make most of it from 4mm bs1088 plywood with 6mm upper deck and 6mm transom.

I will mount the beams over bulkheads 24 and 96. The transom will be reinforced to support the rudders.

I have not figured out daggerboard cases yet and still need to calculate their location, but will cut them in after the hull is glassed, but before the upper deck is installed.

I will tape all seams with 6oz tape and cover the plywood in and out with 6oz woven.

The top deck is perfectly flat on the same plane, so it can be built upside down using a flat surface and bulkheads for the jig.
I may not install bulkhead 108.
Bulkheads 24 and 96 (beam supports) are full size bulkheads.
The two bulkheads between will have the centers cut out to create a place to stow small 'stuff'.

I have done this while teaching myself Solidworks on a Student edition, this should not be considered a commercial endeavor in any way.
If it is useful for any reason feel free to use any or none of the information provided.

Feedback is welcome. (I really don't know what I am doing, but having fun 'faking' it :))
AMA.PDF
(726.35 KiB) Downloaded 20 times
Transom.PDF
(39.8 KiB) Downloaded 19 times
Bulkhead Station 24.PDF
(40.72 KiB) Downloaded 14 times
Bulkhead Station 48.PDF
(40.8 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
Bulkhead Station 72.PDF
(40.81 KiB) Downloaded 19 times
Bulkhead Station 96.PDF
(40.38 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
Bulkhead Station 108.PDF
(40.77 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
Bottom Panel.PDF
(43.34 KiB) Downloaded 17 times
Chine Panel.PDF
(44.27 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
Upper Panel.PDF
(44.2 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
Deck.PDF
(44.05 KiB) Downloaded 18 times

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:16 pm
by VT_Jeff
narfi wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:17 pm I have the mast shaped and outside glassed but then the sunny days stopped and its not getting warm enough for me to want to keep tempting the epoxy not to work.
I ran out of airplane plans again so simi focusing on this project till I get more. I think I have my plans finalized for the hull panels and will cut them out this weekend if all goes well.

If anyone wants to look them over and tell me to STOP!!! before cutting, feel free..... I am just faking it, but its been kind of fun trying to figure it all out.

I made a little zip file with everything in it, but doesnt look like I can upload it here, will see if the PDFs work or not,
Here is the 'readme' I put in the zip.
Narfi's first attempt at outriggers.

All panels are measured on 12inch lines.
Draw a vertical line every 12inches and mark the measurements for each side from the edge of plywood, use those marks to draw a fair curve.
Bulkhead station numbers are measured in inches from the transom. 24 is 24inches from the transom, 48 is 48inches, etc....

Each hull is made up of 2x bottom panels to form a V shaped rocker on the bottom (it is not a single panel flat bottom), 2x chine panels, 2x upper panels, and 1 deck.
If you want a flat bottom instead of the V, make it 8" wide in the center 138 inches long with a fair curve, this should stitch nicely to the bottom of the chine panels.
The hulls are 12ft long so the first 8ft of each panel can be cut from a sheet of plywood and the last 4 cut sideways on another.
Doing this Two hulls can be made from 3 sheets of plywood excluding the upper deck, transom and bulkheads.

I plan to make most of it from 4mm bs1088 plywood with 6mm upper deck and 6mm transom.

I will mount the beams over bulkheads 24 and 96. The transom will be reinforced to support the rudders.

I have not figured out daggerboard cases yet and still need to calculate their location, but will cut them in after the hull is glassed, but before the upper deck is installed.

I will tape all seams with 6oz tape and cover the plywood in and out with 6oz woven.

The top deck is perfectly flat on the same plane, so it can be built upside down using a flat surface and bulkheads for the jig.
I may not install bulkhead 108.
Bulkheads 24 and 96 (beam supports) are full size bulkheads.
The two bulkheads between will have the centers cut out to create a place to stow small 'stuff'.

I have done this while teaching myself Solidworks on a Student edition, this should not be considered a commercial endeavor in any way.
If it is useful for any reason feel free to use any or none of the information provided.

Feedback is welcome. (I really don't know what I am doing, but having fun 'faking' it :))
Wow!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:49 am
by narfi
With the greenhouse effect it got up to over 70f in the tent again yesterday so I glasses the first side of the boom. The mast is glasses all around now and just letting cure a little more before I sand down and fair. I hung a toolbox from the center of it while curing maybe got a little prebend in it, not sure it's pretty stiff. I figure if it's straight I'm happy and if it bends back a little I'll be happy. It's not high tec.

Started drawing out the panels and had an epiphany. No need to glass the inside when the tapes are as wide as the panels..... The tapes will be enough inside and then on the outside will decide if I can smooth the tapes enough without damaging them or if I want a layer of woven still on the outside for cosmetic reasons.

This simplifies a question I had been going back and forth on..... Would it be better to glass an entire sheet of plywood and cut the panels out from that assembling it glass inside the hill, or to cut the panels and glass them on the table before assembly. The answer is neither :p
20210424_070330.jpg
20210424_070318.jpg
20210423_163052.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:15 am
by narfi
I had forgotten how much time it takes to draw out and cut panels. Thankfully I caught two errors before cutting by eyeing down the row of nails to see if the curves looked fair before drawing.

Here we have 3 sheets of plywood cut out and the 8ft and 4ft sections waiting to be taped and epoxied into their ~12ft sections.

Started drawing out the bulkheads on the scraps but most of them will need to be cut from a 4th sheet of plywood. I haven't calculated but I can probably get the bulkheads and top deck with just one more sheet... Guess we will see :)

It is kind of a mind game that gets the better of me, I am building two hulls, but they are simetrical/identical, so when designing(faking?) Them I only picture the one so in my mind I have all the panels cutout and just need a set of bulkhead/formers but in reality I need two of each... Maybe just me but funny how the brain works against us sometimes.
20210424_153547.jpg
20210426_061640.jpg
20210426_061629.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:51 pm
by cape man
Watching with interest!! You may just be forcing me into making something out of cedar strips for mine.

As to the dagger board(s) you should not need much more than a decent skeg to keep her tracking. The sailing canoes I've seen in the Pacific relied on the outriggers to provide leeward resistance to keep them going forward with a small, fairly shallow skeg.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:10 pm
by Jeff
Cool project Narfi!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:06 am
by narfi
Sanded down the lumps on the boom and glassed the second side of it.

Layed out and taped together half of the panels.
20210426_181723.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:24 am
by fallguy1000
No attempt to change your plans. Have you seen the Dierking foam amas?

Cool project.

I missed if you are making lee boards or how to keep it from slipping sideways.

All the best.

I own the book how to make a 5 hour $50 canoe sail rig. I made the sail, but never bothered finishing once I realized sails were not allowed in the bwca.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:28 am
by narfi
I haven't seen them, I'll look them up.
I will make actual daggerboards in each ama. I have a rough idea where they should be but will make the cases twice as long (fore and aft) as the boards and use spacers with a secondary case to fine tune balance for them.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:42 am
by fallguy1000

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:58 am
by narfi
Ah, solid core or massive core composite. I haven't seen his site, but I am familiar with the method.
One of my favorite sayings,
Soloman wrote: There is nothing new under the sun.
For me, that means that anything I can think up, has already been done, and I just need to find who did it and adapt from there :P

His tutorial page for his massive core outrigger had a maximum width of 6". (he used 3" on each side of his web)
My largest bulkhead is, 17.71" wide by 15.81" high, so significantly more volume, mine wont be training wheels, they will be big enough that a smaller person could probably sail it as a catamaran without the canoe attached in the middle. (over 400lbs of buoyancy per hull)

I am familiar with stitch n glue, so there is no learning curve for me, that directed most of my decision process. I wanted it to be a quick (hopefully) project, not a time to learn new construction methods, even though I am with the mast and beams etc.....

If this was a serious endeavor, or for an aircraft, there are calculations you run at which point the weight advantages for cored composite vs massive core swap based on volume and shape. For a very thin structure, massive core wins out because you only need glass around the outside, so you have a layer of glass on each side of the surface, lets call it top and bottom, for 2 layers. For a thin cored structure the same dimensions, you would need 4 layers of glass(or carbon or kevlar or whatever you are specing...) Glass and epoxy weigh a lot more than wood or foam. So you need to run the numbers to see what your 4 layers of glass/epoxy + 2 layers of core weigh vs your 1 massive core and 2 layers of glass/epoxy.

Because I am using wood not foam it would tip more towards the massive foam core, however as large as my volume is, I am guessing it would still tip in favor of the thin core in terms of weight for the size cross section I am working with.

I find the study fascinating, and wish I had the time to run more numbers on it instead of just theory from memory, but I am already taking time away from other projects to do this, so trying to stay as simple as I can :)

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 12:24 pm
by narfi
Well kind of frustrated with myself......
Started putting the panels together last night. I think they will fit together very nicely, I am happy with that.
However, as you can see in the picture the bulkheads are too big, so I couldn't put the upper side panels on.

The bulkheads are the size I intended, when I modeled it I had each plane 6in apart and the bulkheads drew out perfectly for that. However a simple logic check I didn't do would have saved me this headache..... Each of my panels as drawn and cut out are roughly 6+-in........ If it goes up 6in and over several inches, then obviously it needs to be more than 6in wide....... a²+b²=c² right? I should have seen it and figured it out before cutting......... :(

Luckily even though smaller than I intended, I had been worried I was making them too big..... So it may all be for the best as they seem to fit together nicely.... I just need to figure out what I did wrong and hopefully it is an easy ratio I can shrink the bulkheads to match and it all fits together nicely anyways ........

Fingers crossed :)

You may notice from the picture I made the transoms from scrap 3/8" marine plywood I had instead of the 1/8" I'm doing everything else with, I think it's way overkill buy will give it lots of strength to mount the rudders.
20210430_200737.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 12:49 pm
by Jeff
Nice work Narfi!!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 4:12 pm
by narfi
I do think that transom, station 24 and 96 are enough structure after starting last night. So I just recalculated new bulkheads for them based on the actual size of the panels I cut out and keeping original angles/shape.

Will see if it works or not :) as frustrating as screwing something so obvious up, experimenting and learning is kind of fun. And in the end I really just need some floaty things out to the sides of the canoe to keep the wind from tipping it over so it should be just fine no matter how poorly I screw up the math.
20210501_120717.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 2:02 am
by narfi
Not much time today but cut the bulkheads to my modified calculations and they worked perfectly.

First hull is looking good, need to find some more tape then I'll flip it and start gluing and glass taping the inside.
20210501_211748.jpg
20210501_211806.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:01 am
by narfi
Got both hulls tapped up. My modified bulkheads worked pretty well but station 96 needed a bit wider at the deck to make the sides fair. Cut the third set from some of the center bulkheads I had decided not to use.

The cool thing about cutting bulkheads/formers for 1/8" panels is that you can make a male and female former with one cut....

Hopefully have enough time to glue and glass the inside seams tomorrow night.
20210502_193323.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:17 am
by Jeff
Very cool Narfi!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:48 am
by narfi
I think we made pretty good time last night. 3hrs
Glued and fillited inside seams on both hulls and laid in 6oz 6in tapes which basically glassed the entire inside.
My wife mixed and did the detail work and I applied all the broad strokes.

Went out this morning to check on it and a big fox was watching me.

Not ideal conditions it froze again last night, hopefully the sun bakes the tent this afternoon and they will cure enough to flip tonight and apply filler to all the outside seams in preparation for shaping.
20210504_184155.jpg
20210504_184214.jpg
20210505_060137.jpg
20210505_060200.jpg
20210505_060244.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 12:04 pm
by VT_Jeff
Great stuff, Narfi, I'm super impressed with the whole deal!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 3:00 pm
by cape man
Looking awesome! Like the fox!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 3:24 pm
by Jeff
I agree with Cape Man!!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 3:54 pm
by narfi
Simplicate!

I have been thinking about the daggerboards and calculating placement etc... I didn't want a leeboard because of aesthetics, for some reason they always look kind of clunky, but then I realized that's just they look like a 1x6 plank bolted to the side of a canoe....

I think I will mount it to the rear face of the forward beam as close to the canoe as is practical, but with a similar retract system as the rudder(s) and a long nice foil shape painted instead of brite.

This will serve two huge benefits for me, 1. I don't need to cut into my outrigger hulls. and 2. I don't need to calculate anything, a long foil on a hinge will allow me to move it way forward or aft of what I could possibly want, so I can experiment with how far down I drop it and then when I find its happy spot can mark it for ease, then if/when I add another sail to the front, I can adjust for that as well depending on configuration.

So if this idea works, I just need to design/copy/reverse engineer someone smarter than me a good rudder and retract system and scale it differently between my rudders and leeboard or (off)center board or whatever the appropriate name should be.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:31 am
by pee wee
Nice progress, and I'm enjoying following your process.

That fox looks like he's been eating good!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 11:48 am
by cape man
Here's some ideas from the Book Canoe Rig - The Essence and the Art
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 11:51 am
by cape man
I think I sent this before, but a great book...

https://www.amazon.com/Canoe-Rig-Essenc ... 0626&psc=1

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 12:23 pm
by VT_Jeff
narfi wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:54 pm
I think I will mount it to the rear face of the forward beam as close to the canoe as is practical
Narfi, will that mounting position be able to resist the considerable side load the board will be under? My impression is that the side loading of the dagger board will be a lot more considerable than the rudder.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:16 pm
by narfi
VT_Jeff wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:23 pm
narfi wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:54 pm
I think I will mount it to the rear face of the forward beam as close to the canoe as is practical
Narfi, will that mounting position be able to resist the considerable side load the board will be under? My impression is that the side loading of the dagger board will be a lot more considerable than the rudder.
That is true, and reading the adventures of the guy you linked me to yesterday can cause real life issues.... I still cant see his pictures though :/
I like the idea of the simplicity of exterior mounting of whatever board system I end up with.... Just need to figure out an elegant way of doing it. I am a terrible mix of stubborn, cheap, and wanting it to look nice while being easy and quick to build..... something has to give :)

Interestingly the guy most vocal and helpful for that guy you linked me is also the author of the book Cape Man just recommended ..... too bad its hard back only, my cheap side kicked back in (even though I just ordered 6more gallons of epoxy :/ ) would love to see it as an ebook on amazon, I would probably buy that.

all those systems are common sense approaches, the cabling, routing etc... I will figure out once I have it all assembled on how it will fit and look best with the beams etc.... I actually have experience with two/three rudder systems from working on float planes, their water rudders even retract.... the problem is I need to be careful not to over engineer based on those experiences :)

back to lee/dagger boards.....
I was thinking something like this, where the blue lines are supports attached on the same hinge line plane so it will stay same tension at any angle of deployment.
Capture.JPG
a bungie or spring or cable to pully under the beam would pull it down and cable with pully on top of the beam would retract it and/or set depth/angle of deployment.

Playing with sizing in my head..... 10-12" x 1" at its thickest and just under 7ft long, 1ft above the hinge point for bracing and 6ft between beams so it needs to clear, should give me way more than needed and can be cut down if needed later once balance is figured out. Hinge point will be within inches of the mast, so it will definitely need to be angled back quite a bit, but should be doable I think....

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:35 pm
by narfi
Installed the two bulkheads in each hull, filleted and glass taped into place.
Then flipped them and filled all the seams with epoxy/wood flour.
You can see how muddy it is in some of the pictures, that doesn't show the worst of it :( I have to wear mud boots to work in there. Break up has been rough this year.

Ordered more epoxy from BBC. Also got some 6oz woven tapes. I've not used them before but hoping they will give a cleaner (less labor and sanding) exterior for the hulls. Tape all the seams which basically covers the entire hull since panels are roughly 6in each and then sand fill fair before covering entirely with 6oz cloth. So the outside will basically be 6+6oz woven and inside 6oz biax. Will see how it works....
20210505_183822.jpg
20210505_183840.jpg
20210505_183854.jpg
20210505_183915.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 2:35 pm
by Jeff
Well done Narfi!!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 7:09 pm
by narfi
I think I figured out how to make it way too strong.... Now just need to figure out a compromise of too tough to ever break and too heavy to float.....
Capture.JPG

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:47 pm
by VT_Jeff
narfi wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:09 pm I think I figured out how to make it way too strong.... Now just need to figure out a compromise of too tough to ever break and too heavy to float.....

I like where you're going with that. I was skeptical before I saw the drawing. You may be able to hollow out those gussets to shave weight.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:52 am
by narfi
VT_Jeff wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:47 pm
narfi wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:09 pm I think I figured out how to make it way too strong.... Now just need to figure out a compromise of too tough to ever break and too heavy to float.....

I like where you're going with that. I was skeptical before I saw the drawing. You may be able to hollow out those gussets to shave weight.
I should probably also raise it so the case is out of the water o.0 ... oops
heavily laden the canoe would sit kind of low and in theory with a strong wind or gust the outrigger could submerge to the deck, that means in extreme configuration (heavy canoe w/ outrigger nearly submerged) there is only an inch or two of clearance between the beam and the water. So I should probably build the bottom of the case flush with the bottom of the beam, and support the rest of the case above.... Question is how tall does the case need to be in order to support the board? Gusseted like that I imagine its nearly as stout as if the case was in the hull supported by top deck and bottom of hull, so I doubt I need it taller than the hull, but maybe I could get away with even shorter?

I imagine in my head the board stuck in a socket in the wall and me attempting a pull up on the end sticking out 5-6ft.... how deep does the socket need to be and how stout does the board need to be for that to work? Is that way overkill? I suspect it is.....

Is there any real advantage to two symmetrical boards vs 1 if they are not going to be housed inside the hulls? My thoughts when building in the hulls was to slant them in a little for a little extra lift, but other than that is there any advantage other than symmetry? If there was an advantage I could build two beam mounted cases as close to the outer hulls as possible instead of one offset as close to the center hull as possible.... I suppose they could be smaller then and have less load on each one, however isn't most(all?) of the load on the leeward hull and so in turn if the boards are far outboard only the leeward board would be beneficial?
One other possible advantage is that the weight would be symmetrical and outboard acting as ballast on the flying hull..... my guess is that for a conversion project like this that will be over weight and not a racer that it really wont matter much.... thoughts anyone?

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 11:16 am
by VT_Jeff
narfi wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:52 am
VT_Jeff wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:47 pm
narfi wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:09 pm I think I figured out how to make it way too strong.... Now just need to figure out a compromise of too tough to ever break and too heavy to float.....

I like where you're going with that. I was skeptical before I saw the drawing. You may be able to hollow out those gussets to shave weight.
I should probably also raise it so the case is out of the water o.0 ... oops
heavily laden the canoe would sit kind of low and in theory with a strong wind or gust the outrigger could submerge to the deck, that means in extreme configuration (heavy canoe w/ outrigger nearly submerged) there is only an inch or two of clearance between the beam and the water. So I should probably build the bottom of the case flush with the bottom of the beam, and support the rest of the case above.... Question is how tall does the case need to be in order to support the board? Gusseted like that I imagine its nearly as stout as if the case was in the hull supported by top deck and bottom of hull, so I doubt I need it taller than the hull, but maybe I could get away with even shorter?

I imagine in my head the board stuck in a socket in the wall and me attempting a pull up on the end sticking out 5-6ft.... how deep does the socket need to be and how stout does the board need to be for that to work? Is that way overkill? I suspect it is.....

Is there any real advantage to two symmetrical boards vs 1 if they are not going to be housed inside the hulls? My thoughts when building in the hulls was to slant them in a little for a little extra lift, but other than that is there any advantage other than symmetry? If there was an advantage I could build two beam mounted cases as close to the outer hulls as possible instead of one offset as close to the center hull as possible.... I suppose they could be smaller then and have less load on each one, however isn't most(all?) of the load on the leeward hull and so in turn if the boards are far outboard only the leeward board would be beneficial?
One other possible advantage is that the weight would be symmetrical and outboard acting as ballast on the flying hull..... my guess is that for a conversion project like this that will be over weight and not a racer that it really wont matter much.... thoughts anyone?
As much as I like your gusset idea, I'd be really inclined to reconsider a simple lee board, at least out of the gate. You get strength, ease of mounting and ease of adjustment, all for free, and it will give a simple indication of how much board you really need in the water. I suspect it's not much give the shape of the canoe/ama, they will help to resist lateral sliding quite a bit on their own in my guesstimation.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:24 am
by narfi
Sanded and shaped the outer seams last night and this afternoon.
I could have spent a little more time on the bow curve, but it's purely asthetic and I'm trying to be quick instead of pretty as much as I can force myself to.

Then my wife helped tape all the seams. She mixed and I applied.
First time using woven tapes, I think they went ok. I was careful at the bow and did it with a shorter strip so it would form around the curve better.

My intent has been to follow up with a layer of 6oz cloth but as stiff as the hulls were with just the inside taped, I'm toying with the idea of just fairing in this tape and calling it done.... Will see how it feels after it cures. The full top deck will add even more stiffness to it..... Thoughts?
20210515_181134.jpg
20210515_181152.jpg
20210515_181208.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:03 am
by Fuzz
I always want every piece of wood to be glassed over. With the added cost of getting materials to where you live I would not take any chances with what the build. but that is just me :wink:

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 6:43 am
by cape man
I'm with Jeff and David. With those three hulls and the leeward one being dug in, I don't think you need the dagger board and gusset, or even a leeboard. Thats a pretty sharp keel you have made on them that will help a lot with preventing it from slipping. She'll track without them. If you have it, or can wait to get it, a piece of 4 ounce woven cloth will provide some abrasion resistance on the outside and not add much weight.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 12:42 am
by narfi
Cut and dry fit the cleats for attaching the decks. I think should provide good gluing surface area. Hopefully get them glued in tomorow with thickened epoxy.

Just for fun laid the mast ends on benches and sat on the middle, it held me fine though I was nervous and listening for any creaking or cracking. Fully dressed with my mud boots on I'm just over 200lbs. Roughly 23ft between the benches.
20210516_172126.jpg
20210516_172148.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 6:11 am
by cape man
Your sail will rip or the boat capsize before the mast will break! Looking good.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 7:58 am
by Jeff
Nice work Narfi!!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:31 am
by narfi
Glued in all the cleats with epoxy thickened with wood flour. Installed a couple of spreaders in the bow compartments to widen the top out a bit and add a little more bouyancy up front if they get submerged.

Took a look at my last eight 12ft 1x4s I will use for the box beams. Not pretty, and 2 of them have small split sections.... I will try to balance them, best 4 pieces for the tops and bottoms and the worst for the webs with one each of the worst on each beam web..... I think the big box beams are overkill so hoping it will be ok with the inferior wood I am using.
20210517_193617.jpg
20210517_193627.jpg
20210517_193648.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 12:45 am
by narfi
Didn't have a lot of time tonight, but was able to cut and glue in the shroud attach bracket mounting reinforcements. 1 layer of 1/8th pretty large to spread the load and a slightly smaller layer of 1/2" the sticks are just wedged in to hold the bottom portion in place while the glue cures.

Guess the hulls are port and starboard now..... Untill this point they were simetrical.
20210518_165623.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:32 am
by VT_Jeff
narfi wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 12:45 am shroud attach bracket mounting reinforcements.
"Chain plate backers" is the sailing term, I believe.

Maybe paint one hull green and the other red?

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 7:16 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 6:32 am
narfi wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 12:45 am shroud attach bracket mounting reinforcements.
"Chain plate backers" is the sailing term, I believe.

Maybe paint one hull green and the other red?
Yes. Anything that is attaching a shroud is a chain plate. Stay attachment point are still chain plates but are typically named (forestay chain plate). On my Helms the shrouds all use identical plates but the stay plates are all different.

Tony might pop in here and call me names. If he does I deserve it.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:19 am
by narfi
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 6:32 am "Chain plate backers" is the sailing term, I believe.

Maybe paint one hull green and the other red?
Thanks, it's good for me to learn proper terminology :)
The boat is red and white so red won't contrast much.... And I don't have any quality green paint. So they will be red or white :p
Jaysen wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:16 am Yes. Anything that is attaching a shroud is a chain plate. Stay attachment point are still chain plates but are typically named (forestay chain plate). On my Helms the shrouds all use identical plates but the stay plates are all different.

Tony might pop in here and call me names. If he does I deserve it.
I have some 1/8" aluminum I will be making the chain plates from and probably the bracket on the mast as well as the mast cap(?) To mount my halyard sheive (pulley) from.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 11:09 am
by VT_Jeff
narfi wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:19 am halyard sheive (pulley)
Block.

This is fun! :lol:

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 11:32 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:09 am
narfi wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:19 am halyard sheive (pulley)
Block.

This is fun! :lol:
This will get ugly fast.

For some reason the blocks up the mast are sheaves. These are part of the mast head and are typically cassette stacks of multiple blocks (you buy a set for number of halyards; in my case it is main, jib, spin, topping main, topping spin).

Any other wheel you use to route a line is a block. If the block can be removed from the line without pulling the line through the block it is a snatch block (typically used to route sheets from jib when flying on the pole and when flying the spin.

A pulley is something you use NOT ON A BOAT.

Don’t get me started on winches vs capstan.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 12:24 pm
by narfi
VT_Jeff wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:09 am Block.

This is fun! :lol:
Jaysen wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:32 am
This will get ugly fast.

For some reason the blocks up the mast are sheaves. These are part of the mast head and are typically cassette stacks of multiple blocks (you buy a set for number of halyards; in my case it is main, jib, spin, topping main, topping spin).

Any other wheel you use to route a line is a block. If the block can be removed from the line without pulling the line through the block it is a snatch block (typically used to route sheets from jib when flying on the pole and when flying the spin.

A pulley is something you use NOT ON A BOAT.

Don’t get me started on winches vs capstan.
hehe.... slow down I can attempt one new term at a time......
I had thought that a block was the assembly (pulley and bracket that houses the pulley) and the sheave was the pulley itself(just the round thing). Close? or not at all?

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 12:51 pm
by Jaysen
Things that are correct not on a boat are not correct on a boat. Technically a sheave is any grooved wheel on an axle (think v groove, u groove or slots for toothed belt). No groove and it is a pulley. Don’t ask, that’s the technical definitions.

On land your block definition is correct. One could say it is correct on a boat as you never really see a sheave outside a context that would meet the definition. You could even say that mast head sheaves meet that definition as well since they are in the mast which serves as the block housing.

It gets a lot more fun when you start looking at through deck or on deck line management. Are they sheaves like the mast or blocks? Everyone calls them blocks.

Next up for pedantic discussion when is a cleat not a cleat and when are things clearly not a cleat called cleats?

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:20 pm
by VT_Jeff
I think block is more function and sheave is more component. I think originally blocks were literally just blocks, of wood.

I'm literally about to start typing object oriented abstractions of a block interface and a sheave implementation, so I'll just leave it at that.

When I take people sailing, I really enjoy introducing the language/terms. Like "come up" instead of "turn right". All part of the fun. You need those discussion topics when you're maxing out at 6 knots.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 2:18 am
by narfi
Sanded all the glue lumps off from installing the cleats for bonding the top deck down to a somewhat uniform mating surface. Cut the top decks out slightly over sized and dry fit them. Removed them and laid them out upside down. Coated the undersides with epoxy, coated all remaining bare wood inside the hulls with epoxy, the cleats and chain plate mounting reinforcements. Layed out thickened epoxy on all the top mating surfaces and set the decks into place and weighted them down. My wife helped as usual with mixing and quality control.

My goal with this project is to get it done quickly and effeciently with minimal effort into looks. It is an experiment with something I don't know what I'm doing, I should keep my expectations and effort in cosmetics reasonable.

I typically struggle with paralysis by analysis as well as some missguided notion of perfectionism. I am pretty happy to announce these decks went on with lots of ugly inside and I didn't even pause... Well maybe a few minutes of regret over the epoxy runs and zero fairing compound and no paint.... But not for long, and for now at least it is sealed inside where no one can ever see it. Though I suppose if this somehow turns into an amazing craft and gets lots of use on the lake I may open up the center compartments with a hatch of some sort to store camping gear in...... Don't need to worry about that now though :)
20210519_185226.jpg
20210519_185258.jpg
20210519_185318.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 7:44 am
by Jeff
Really nice work Narfi!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:40 am
by VT_Jeff
Paralysis by analysis. Check.

What jeff said: great work!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 6:49 pm
by TomW1
Cool Narfi :!:

Tom

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 1:16 am
by narfi
First cross beam glued together. It is made from 4x 1x4s 12 ft long.

I epoxy coated all the inside faces and glued in little spacers every 24 inches to hold the sides apart(building it on its side so top and bottom in the pictures)

Layed it out on and clamped to 2x 2.5" square steel tubes so it is really straight as it cures. Will see how that translates once the clamps are removed :)

My wife helped again, would have been really awkward balancing and holding all the slimey epoxy coated peices together by myself trying to get the clamps started.
20210520_194536.jpg
20210520_194553.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 10:58 am
by narfi
Glued together the second beam. Nothing exciting there exact same process as the first.

Sanded down the mast and struggled with the idea of not fairing it at all, but just couldn't bring myself to do it, so applied one coat of filler to fill the weave, applied and scraped with a Bondo squeegee as thin as I could get it.

Rained all night and cold so as thin as it was applied it is still wet this morning. I hope it cures ok over a couple of days and the cold/humidity don't mess it up for me.

The glue and epoxy coating on the beam was thick enough I think it will do ok, probably creates a little more chemical heat that way.... I'm not sure but I do know that when I do super thin coats of filler scraped off with the squeegee they always take longer to cure.
20210521_214030.jpg
20210521_214115.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 1:02 pm
by narfi
Routed/sanded/shaped/radiused back the top decks I had installed oversized and then taped them down.

My math was off on amount of 6oz woven tape I ordered for the outside seams so 2nd hull got biax tape on the deck seams.
20210522_215700.jpg
20210522_215711.jpg

20210522_215724.jpg
20210522_215744.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 10:48 am
by narfi
Was perfect conditions in the tent for working epoxy yesterday. Got up over 90 in there.
So instead of working on the outriggers we dug out the fs17 and went out on the lake for the first time this year.

Stopped at a creek and roasted sausages and s'mores while Landon and Brutus explored and got wet.
Landon was fine but with his pajamas and a huge beach towel wrapped around him Brutus still shivered the whole ride home :p

I did sneak out to the tent in the evening and filled some spots on the cross beams. Pretty much just cosmetic but will let the glass lay down nicer and better to do before I sand all the glue down than to sand down then fill then sand again before glassing. Didn't take any pictures but it wasn't very exciting either.
20210523_150724.jpg
20210523_150155.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 11:02 am
by Jeff
Beautiful Place Narfi!!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 3:20 am
by narfi
Needed to clear off the table to cut some plywood. Couldn't help myself and drug all the peices out to see how they look together. That's not the mast, just the uncut boom stock roughly 1/2 the height of the mast I built, but easier to hold in place for looks.
20210524_165536.jpg
20210524_165432.jpg
20210524_165419.jpg
20210524_165625.jpg
20210524_165648.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 3:36 am
by narfi
I cut out and started assembly of the rudders and board.
Epoxy coated the inside faces and then laid them in jigs with the bottoms taped together. 8nterior jig wedges were covered in packing tape so they won't stick.
Got the idea for this method from this article,

http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/how-to-b ... er-boards/

The rudders are 4ft by 10inch panels, the board is 8ft by 13inches. They are both oversized, I'll see if I cut them down before testing or after..... Easier to cut some off than to add more later. My goal for the board is roughly 6ft under water and whatever looks good for the rudders, I think with the two big rudders I should have plenty of authority..... But I don't really know what I'm doing so time will tell :)
20210524_213436.jpg
20210524_213447.jpg
20210524_213506.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 6:11 am
by cape man
I'm confused. Can you do a sketch of what you're thinking?

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 6:45 am
by VT_Jeff
Wow, what a great process for foils. I had to build a new rudder for my precision 18 some years ago, it was definitely not this high tech.

Your amas and beams are stout to the point that the canoe looks like a passenger on a catamaran. I'm wondering if the whole project is a top secret float rig for your plane. Lol

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 6:46 am
by VT_Jeff
cape man wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:11 am I'm confused. Can you do a sketch of what you're thinking?
I was too until I read the linked article. The vees get bent into foils

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 6:58 am
by Jaysen
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:46 am
cape man wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:11 am I'm confused. Can you do a sketch of what you're thinking?
I was too until I read the linked article. The vees get bent into foils
It will be interesting to see how that works. I'm thinking those are a bit ... large for the size boat. My 4000lb 24' long, 8' beam fat pig has a rudder that is 5'x2'. The fin keel is 4'x3' (and has 1800lbs ballast. Most of the cats I see have small narrow rudders. This includes the big cruisers as well as the pure wind-powered boats. There has to be a reason all the designers use smaller rudders and keels on these things.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 7:31 am
by Jeff
Too cool Narfi!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 11:06 am
by narfi
cape man wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:11 am I'm confused. Can you do a sketch of what you're thinking?
Here is a diagram from the article I linked on http://smalltrimarans.com/

Image

I am doing a lower tech version of this idea.... no carbon spar caps, and to my own dimensions.
Is that what you were asking about? or something else?

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 11:39 am
by narfi
Jaysen wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:58 am It will be interesting to see how that works. I'm thinking those are a bit ... large for the size boat. My 4000lb 24' long, 8' beam fat pig has a rudder that is 5'x2'. The fin keel is 4'x3' (and has 1800lbs ballast. Most of the cats I see have small narrow rudders. This includes the big cruisers as well as the pure wind-powered boats. There has to be a reason all the designers use smaller rudders and keels on these things.
There is a simple and logical explanation to why they do it the way they do.

Math.

and........

Experience.

I am too dumb to know the math, and not dumb enough to have gained experience....... isn't there a quote about experience coming from lack of wisdom and wisdom coming from experience or something like that? (the point being (my take away, not the authors intent) is that dumb people have more fun and have better stories)

From what I have read a well designed foil should be ~5% of your sail size.
I have a 80ft2 sail and have not ruled out the idea of some sort of head sail at some point down the experimentation path.
So a well designed board for this sail would be 4ft2 under the water raised to roughly 5ft2 if/when more sail(s) is put up.
So for my 13in panels the nose will be rounded off and the entire panel bowed out to form the foil shape, call it roughly 12in (should be a little over), this makes for easy math because for each foot under the water I get 1ft2.
Three things make me want to go larger,
1. future proofing for a larger sail(s)
2. accounting for my assumed inefficiencies
3. Because I do not know the balance angle the board will be used at it is possible i loose a significant portion due to not being submerged

The pivot point will be roughly 1ft above the water and if I am to fully retract it I am limited to the 6ft between the beams, that gives me right at the 5ft2 under water if straight down and less for any angle back and I am extending it a foot above the pivot point to use as a lever/bellcrank for moving it. So my plan has been 7ft long to account for all of those variables knowing it is slightly oversized, but I do not feel grossly oversized.... Perhaps I am wrong though :)

The rudders I have a harder time finding any significant math on, however it is a relatively short boat for its size and sail area. As an aircraft enthusiast, I know that distance to the rudder acts like a lever, the shorter the distance the larger the rudder needs to be to have the same effect, further you can push it back the smaller the rudder would need to be. These rudders will be mounted 24inches forward of the rear of the canoe which is already fairly short, so I know I need them oversized, I just don't have any standard on what normal or under or oversized would be....... I have less thought into them so far, but roughly thinking I will also cut a foot off of each of these making them 3ft of which roughly 2.5ft will be under water and remembering that at times only one will be of much use when one hull is out of the water.....

Does that thought process seem logical?

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 11:50 am
by narfi
VT_Jeff wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:45 am Wow, what a great process for foils. I had to build a new rudder for my precision 18 some years ago, it was definitely not this high tech.

Your amas and beams are stout to the point that the canoe looks like a passenger on a catamaran. I'm wondering if the whole project is a top secret float rig for your plane. Lol
hehe, of course I am always thinking steps ahead and sideways anytime I am working on something, so I have been thinking about plane floats as well...... however......

plane floats are quite a bit different, they need to be planing hulls balanced about where the main landing gear usually sits but have the displacement to be stable when at rest....
So aircraft floats have a significant step just aft of the center, when they get up to speed, the rear section is out of the water and it is planeing on the forward section at speeds able to lift off the water, if it was a long traditional hull the water would suck it down as speeds increased and lift off would be impossible.

Image

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 1:42 pm
by VT_Jeff
narfi wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 11:50 am So aircraft floats have a significant step just aft of the center, when they get up to speed, the rear section is out of the water and it is planeing on the forward section at speeds able to lift off the water, if it was a long traditional hull the water would suck it down as speeds increased and lift off would be impossible.
Makes perfect sense, but would not have guessed that. Made me wonder immediately about using a foil under the float to reduce drag on takeoff, a quick google search indicates that others have posed the same question and that foils have been used on flying boats, but apparently not in conjunction with floats, just as an alternative. Interesting.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 12:24 am
by narfi
Epoxy primed inside the foils where the spar would sit and the trailing edge and coated the spars on all sides.
Applied thickened epoxy to the spars and trailing edge and folded them down on themselves.

The rudders blanks look near perfect but I struggled a bit with the longer one. Top and bottom skins not wanting to curve simetricaly and the middle of the leading edge was bowing opposite as the ends. After loosening the clamps and forcing into shape with one of the beams and retightening the clamps it is okish..... Will see if it springs out of shape once the epoxy is cured or if it is happy with it's new shape.

If I was to do it again I would take the time to build a few ribs. I don't think they are needed for strength but would make bending symmetrically much easier.
20210525_183430.jpg
20210525_183402.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:54 am
by narfi
Busy week, but I have still been doing a little, just nothing interesting to show.

Wrapped the rudders and board in 6oz woven.
Got 6oz biax on the 3rd face of the beams. Already got 12oz on the tops and bottoms and so just one more side face left to do in 6oz.

Wife helped with mixing again and holding the foils for me to keep them from swinging.
20210601_200350.jpg
20210601_200342.jpg
20210601_200333.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:30 am
by Jeff
Good stuff Narfi!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:20 am
by narfi
Got the last side of the beams glassed.
Finished sanding down the tape edges on the hulls, one last night one night before.
Laid 6oz cloth over the bottoms of the first hull up to the deck corner.
Not sure if it's a good idea or bad, theoretically it might be weaker, but not sure in reality.... I filled all the weave and the sanded edges (basically entire surface) with epoxy thickened with the light weight filler/fairing compound. I would have done wood flour but it doesn't squeegy out as smooth for applying glass over wet. With the fairing compound squeegeed out as thin as I could scrape it, I rolled a coat of epoxy and then laid the cloth, it seems pretty smooth, will see today after it's cured and I'm less tired.... But I think cosmeticly it worked great.

(I have been using wood flour wet under the biax tapes on the beams, but the biax allows inconsistencies to squirt through the fibers where woven kind of traps stuff (epoxy, air, debris, etc....) Underneath in ugly bubbles)
20210603_212534.jpg
20210603_212559.jpg
20210603_212545.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:26 am
by narfi
Family visiting for 2 weeks so not sure how much progress I will make .....

Last night I sanded, filled and applied the overlapping layer of 6oz woven over the top decks.

I really need to spend a weekend cleaning out the tent, kind of let it go when it was so muddy :( have a new tarp for the floor ordered so at some point will drag everything and the table out and try to level off all the mudholes I made walking around in the soup that have solidified now.
20210607_203344.jpg
20210607_203413.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:38 am
by Jeff
Nice work Narfi!! Any progress on your airplane? Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:45 am
by narfi
Jeff wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:38 am Nice work Narfi!! Any progress on your airplane? Jeff
No :/ its on hold till I get this project done :)

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:47 am
by Jeff
Got it!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:32 am
by narfi
Visiting family is gone. Back to work on the canoe :)

Applied a coat of fairing to all 4 sides of the beams and all but the top decks of the outriggers.

I had been planning to build sockets on the outriggers to bolt the beams to, but came to an appiphany laying in bed last night...... I don't need to break it down for anything, there aren't roads or width restrictions here..... I'll just be carting it down to the water so no need to overly complicated things. I can just attach the beams and outriggers solidly together. Fewer weak points to break that way :)

Built a crude jig for the table saw to cut the groove in the mast and boom. It worked 'okish'...... Blade is thinner than I needed the groove so attempted to have the jig slightly off center and pulled the mast through both directions. There was enough play in the jig I still had narrow spots I needed to enlarge with a combination of vibrating multitool saw and sandpaper wrapped around a butter knife.

Glassed the inside faces of my rudder and leeboard boxes.

The bolt rope of the luff slid through well and I think fits great. The plastic slug at the clew also fit great on the boom. However there are slugs at the head and tack that have a shorter length neck? (Standoff between the slug and attachment that fits through the slot in the track) they bind up as the combined width of the PEX, wood, and fiberglass are just barely too thick.

I could sand that down some, but would loose the glass which gives the track strength and retains the PEX... So I don't want to do that. Would it be easy to get slugs like the one on the clew to replace the ones at the head and tack? Or is there a good reason for them being different? If it is ok to do that, would it also be practical to install them along the entire leading edge to use instead of the bolt rope? It fits and slides fine, but there is some friction when the entire sail is in the track.... It works fine, but would hate for it to bind at an inopertune time......
20210620_174905.jpg
20210620_191422.jpg
20210620_191434.jpg
20210620_191454.jpg
20210620_191540_01.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:48 am
by narfi
Todd Bradshaw(on another forum) wrote:I'd cut those headboard slugs off and attach different ones. They can be attached by drilling a small hole through the headboards (slightly behind the place where the current slugs are) and using small stainless shackles to attach new slugs. Places like Sailrite have a variety of slug styles available.

The first thing to do on the boltrope is to rub it down with paraffin, which will seriously reduce friction. There are also some sprays available for the job, though on a wooden boat with painted or varnished surfaces you want to avoid the use of any products containing silicone. Incidental contact with other parts of the boat can make for nasty paint adhesion problems if you ever need to do some touch-up painting.
Good advice as always, thanks.
I will look into replacing the headboard slug and the tack, I was worried it would be difficult to replace the one at the headboard, but your suggesion is simple and easy. I will make sure to keep the same distance so the shape stays the same.

I didn't have much time last night, but closed in the rudder and leeboard boxes, well I say 'closed in' loosely since there is just the two sides connected by the block in the front of each one. I am hoping that the hinge pin in the center will be enough to keep them from flexing too much, to be honest, I suspect they are a bit of overkill, but after seeing Lee.007s issues with his rudders and board, I want to errror on the side of caution. (forgot to take any pictures)

Thinking about rigging and routing and all that entails..........

I have reinforced areas for the chainplates on the outriggers already and will make a bracket about 3/4 of the way up the mast that they will go to as well as the forstay. I had originally planned to attach the forestay to the front of the canoe, however as I think I have managed to get everything else attached to the outriggers and beams, in the spirit of a 'convertable canoe' that literaly just bolts on and goes, I think I will make a bridal between the front of the two outriggers to attach the forestay to as well. I just need to figure out a good method of attachement and how high the 'Y' should be.

I bought a variaty of pulleys and need to figure out what I need where for everything else still

Top of the mast, I will build an aluminum bracket housing two pulleys transitioning from up inside the mast to down the back of it. I only need one for the halyard, but figured another would be convenient for flags or if something goes wrong with the first one.
Bottom of the mast..... Still not sure how to transition the lines from inside to outside for the most practical ease of use. My two ideas are pullyes at the bottom out each side comming up to cleats, or angled holes in the side of the mast on each side just above head height comming down to cleats. I would insert pex tubes 5-6 inches inside the mast directing up and a couple inches on the outside directing down and reinforced with multiple layers of fiberglass. So I guess my question is this, is it better to pull down, or to pull up, or is there a better more standardized way of doing this?

Gooseneck, I haven't built it yet, but have a fairly good idea of what I need. A universal joint that connects the boom to the mast track and has a method of attaching to the sail and the downhaul. I understand the need for the pivot up and down and side to side, but is there any need for the boom to twist as well? I know some use a pin, but it would be simpler I think to use straps around the boom to attach it. I can still make it swivel if it needs to twist, but don't want to make it more complex than I need to.

Downhaul, how much leverage do I need? I got 2 of these very cheap, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07VF ... UTF8&psc=1 not sure if it is a good idea or not....

Outhaul, routing.... leverage needed? pulley at each end of the boom with the line running inside and then pulled back on the outside to a cleat on the side of the boom?

Sheet and traveler system..... of everything, this seems to need to be the most ergonomic, and with no experience I am clueless..... still thinking about it and reading what I can find.

Rudders.... 3 lines to each going to pulleys on the back side of the rear beam, 1 intertie to the other rudder, 1 control, and 1 retract, they will be spring or bungee down. Need to figure out a tiller system mounted on the rear beam that the control lines come to from each rudder.

Leeboard, 1 retract line and will be spring or bungee down.

As you can see, lots rattleing around in my mind, just not much knowledge or experience.... Makes for a fun adventure

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:19 am
by narfi
Finally something fun to show.

I sanded the fairing material off of the beams and the outrigger hulls yesterday. Still some weave visible but keep trying to remind myself it's an experiment and I can't waste time making it pretty.

Spent some time squaring and leveling. All four peices are level and it's identical distance from each bow to outside corner of the opposite transom. Wife helped me with the leveling and squaring as well as turning the beams over to apply a coat of epoxy and then thickened epoxy before lifting them back into place.

I am pretty happy with it, however it is a huge footprint, probably won't get it back in the tent now.... How long can I keep it outside in the weak Alaska UV before it causes issues with the epoxy? Am I good for a couple of weeks before painting as I finish up all the boys and peices or will I need to be tarping it daily between projects?
20210622_204618.jpg
20210622_204637.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:03 pm
by Fuzz
I bet you can get away with all summer pretty easy.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:26 am
by narfi
Tabbed the beams in with 12oz biax.

Cut the rudders down and formed solid end caps for the first one.

Traced the end on a solid block then cut it out on the band saw, then freehand shaped the end with a combination of the belt sander and RO sander.

Need to do one more set for the other rudder as well as the leeboard.
20210623_200444.jpg
20210623_200326.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:10 pm
by cape man
You have gone crazy and I love it! Can't wait to see it all together and functional.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:10 am
by narfi
cape man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:10 pm You have gone crazy and I love it! Can't wait to see it all together and functional.
Well it's kind of fun, I usually don't know what the heck I'm doing but somehow it always ends up ok.....

I think there is a quote out there somewhere about angels guarding idiots..... I might be proof if that.

Finished cutting the end peices and shaping them and glued them on. Held in place with plastic tape and a strip of duct tape over it all. I forgot to mark the spars before closing them up..... Think I'll hinge the rudders through the end caps but was planning to hinge the leeboard through the spar.... I think I can guess close enough though.
20210624_215615.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:10 pm
by narfi
Last piece of the sectional couch came in so got the legs on it and in place. I'm happy with it and wife is happy so all is good!!

Sanded the excess glue off the rudder and board cap ends and glassed them on with 2 layers of 6oz woven. Will still need to give the corners some glass and attention.

Loosely set the canoe into place under the beams to look and think. Will block the canoe roughly 2 inches under the beams which will make the "V" of the outriggers just slightly above the bottom of the canoe.
20210626_075609.jpg
20210626_081454.jpg
20210626_081645.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:21 am
by Fuzz
This is going to be interesting to see how it all works out.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:58 am
by narfi
Sanded down the edges of the glass over the rudder and board caps.

Drilled pivot holes in the rudders, board and cases.
Had worried I didn't mark the spar on the board before capping it in. But realized I had the bits I trimmed off so it was a non issue, I just laid the scrap against it to see where the spar was for drilling the pivot hole.

I messed up making the case for the board and the front spacer is full height but it needs a gap for the board to pivot through, so I'll need to trim a bit of that out.

Still not sure on hinges for between the rudder cases and transoms. Maybe glass in some PEX just like I did on the mast... Still thinking about it, but need to start doing something.......
20210626_201103.jpg
20210626_201132.jpg
20210626_201226.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:06 am
by narfi
Over drilled all the holes in the boards and cases and filled with thickened epoxy.
Made sample hinges to see how they would work. PEX glassed on the end of some scrap plywood, will grind out sections so they fit together and see how they hinge with a pin.
Cut and glued together the blocks and brackets for attaching the beams to the canoe rubrail.
20210627_204142.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:12 am
by Jeff
Narfi, this is really a cool project!! I cant wait to see her in the water!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:13 am
by narfi
Rough cut the sample hinge. Even though It wasn't straight when glassed to the plywood (it's a coiled price of PEX I just straightened by hand) it seemed to work well enough to persue with more care.

Shoved a steel rod through a length to keep it straight and glassed it to a price of plywood with 2x layers of 6oz woven, it looks pretty clean I think and should work well.

Glued the blocks and brackets to the beams for attaching the canoe.

Used some left over epoxy to glass some of the rudder and board corners with scraps of 6oz woven.
20210628_173846.jpg
20210628_192228.jpg
20210628_192127.jpg
20210628_192127.jpg (105.16 KiB) Viewed 1450 times

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:32 am
by narfi
Drilled the mounting holes in the attach brackets and canoe rubrails.

Took the canoe off and flipped the outriggers.

Sanded off excess glue around attach brackets and beam to hull connection.

Filled all those joints with thickened epoxy fillets and glassed with 2x layers of 6oz woven. I suspect it would have been quicker and easier to just use 12oz biax but I was hoping for a cleaner less sanding needed finish. Instead got lots of glass hairs balled up everywhere and always working against the clock with epoxy gelling. Still not too bad, it will work :)

Forgot to take a picture but also glassed up the second chunk of hinge stock. Each peice is enough for 2x hinge halves so the 2 will be enough for all 4 halves needed to attach both rudders.
20210629_214945.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:15 am
by narfi
Sanded back the edges of all the glass on the mounting brackets and beam to hull junctions.

Three coats of graphite and epoxy to the bottoms of the hull roughly 2 hours apart worked well as it was a hot (for Alaska) day, 75f outside and 110f inside the tent, so the epoxy mixed really well and cured quickly. Just had to roll fast.

Only down side is all the bugs I trapped, but as I keep telling myself, this isn't a project for beauty, it is an experiment in function........

Cut both sets of rudder hinges and really happy with how they turned out.
20210630_210603.jpg
20210630_210551.jpg
20210630_203656.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:52 am
by narfi
Dummied up the rudder cases to test the hinge fit and very happy with them. They are just glued on with thickened epoxy right now, still need to glass the hinges securely in place, I made sure to sand back enough relief on the hinges there will still be room for the extra glass.

Took a couple days off from epoxy and started making aluminum peices.

Hinging mast step, I had been stressing quiet a bit over how to mount the mast, but this fell together easily and I am pretty happy with it. It will be riveted together with solid countersunk 1/8" rivets.

Exit blocks for the halyard near the base of the mast.

Masthead with halyard block.

All peices made from 1/8" aluminum sheet and extruded aluminum angle. (Stock I have for the plane I am building, glad I bought extra)

Started making end caps and outhaul blocks for the boom but it was bedtime......

Still need to finish the end caps and blocks for the boom.
Need to figure out the shroud/stay attachment to the mast.
Need to cut the chain plates for the shrouds as well as the ones at the bows for the bridal to the forestay.
20210705_055325.jpg
20210705_055423.jpg
20210705_055443.jpg
20210705_055536.jpg
20210705_055611.jpg
20210705_055700.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:36 am
by Jeff
Nice work Narfi!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:58 am
by narfi
Haven't been progressing as fast as I would like, but still getting a little bit done each day.

Here is the leeboard case attached to the beam with 2 layers of 12oz tape along each side and the bottom. Clamp was in the way on top but it's a more awkward spot that won't get a lot of reinforcement, but will try to get a little on it tonight.

The dream is to prime and paint this weekend for the hulls and mast and boom. Not sure if I'll achieve it or not. That will give me a little more space in the tent to finish up all the smaller parts.
20210715_193339.jpg
Someone showed me an unfinished Marples 38ft trimaran on marketplace, all 3 hulls done, attached and painted outside, said the rudders and board still need to be made. But no pictures of inside leaves me guessing a lot of time and money still in finishing needed. (Not to mention getting it here o.0 )

Maybe fuzz needs it so Jayson has something to sail around in when he visits :p

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:29 am
by narfi
Perfect conditions for outside painting this weekend. 75f+ outside and 105f in the tent. Slight breeze to keep the bugs away but not windy enough to mess with the paper.

Saturday I did final sanding then a good wash down with scotch Brite and acid etch to clean any grease and dust off then started spraying the System Three Yacht primer but didn't thin it enough for the only nozzle size I have on my gun (used to more options at work :( ) so poured it out in a tray and rolled it. I rolled while my wife brushed the hard to roll spots. Gotta roll with the punches :) by then the bugs were getting bad and evening was cooling off so called it a night.

Sunday I raced home after church and rolled on a second coat of primer which cured pretty quickly using the spit on your finger and rub it on the primer to see if you can soften up and run any off. It was good enough to start spraying off white awlgrip by 4pm and had second coat finished before 6.

At the same time touched up the mounting holes and scratched up rubrail of the canoe, and a repair and rubrail skuffs on the FS17.

Hoping to paint red tonight. It's a bit cloudy this morning so hopefully my painting window will stretch just enough for me to get it done :p

Then I need to start cleaning up in the tent, it's getting out of hand and finish up the rudders and leeboard and get them painted as well. Hopefully have the mast up within a couple days and be painting the rest by weeks end. Next weekend is a bit too optimistic to launch but getting close!
20210718_190628.jpg
20210718_191925.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:50 am
by cape man
Bet if you just put a net across the middle you could sail it without the canoe!!!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:00 pm
by narfi
cape man wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:50 am Bet if you just put a net across the middle you could sail it without the canoe!!!
hehe, the thought has crossed my mind, as has making a much longer much narrower center hull...... think I will stick with the plan for now though :P I want to get back to building the airplane soonish.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:09 am
by narfi
This is not an art project, this is not an art project, this is not an art project....... I have to keep telling myself.

Rushed home from work and taped off the white and got 2 coats of red sprayed.
Cleaned the paint gun and took my wife out fishing. Some of you know Im not much of a fisherman but she has been wanting to ever since we finished the fs17 so we got some gear and lisences and tonight caught her first lake trout.

By the time we got home the paint had cured enough to unwrap the paper and see what it looks like. Lots of bugs, a few runs from the paint, a few runs from the primer, a few runs I hadn't sanded in the epoxy and plenty of places I could have faired more..... But all things considering I think it looks pretty good and matches the canoe really well.
20210719_182300.jpg
20210719_212851.jpg
20210719_212906.jpg
20210719_212923.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:18 am
by Jaysen
It’s not an art project. Sail it!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:24 pm
by narfi
Last two nights my plan was to put the mast up, but been busy and wife wanted to go out in the boat, it will get there :)
Thought I would share my misery this morning, traffic jam during my 15 minute walk to work today I saw 1 other walker and a jogger, no vehicles though :P
20210723_064017.jpg
20210723_063239.jpg
and this is what our bnb guests saw walking a mile or so from our house yesterday,

https://youtu.be/3xVaSNOXsl8

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:33 pm
by Jeff
Beautiful morning Narfi!!! Love the wildlife on the road!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:23 am
by narfi
Got the mast up. Not a lot of adjustment on the cheap turn buckles I got....... This is second attempt. First try was close, I calculated the length of the shrouds and hooked them up, left the forestay super long, basically just a rope fory wife to pull on while I lifted, pinned the base hinge and put it up in place. First try was a little to far forward to adjust back with the shroud turn buckles. Screws holding the baseplate to the mast were too short and a couple pulled out from pulling forward too far. We took it down and I put longer screws in. Will see, I may end up needing to reinforce those attachments somehow if I raise and lower it alot.... For now they work well as pins to hold it in place....

As you can see in the picture it's raked back a little now, this is with the forestay turnbuckle turned down all the way and the shrouds roughly half.... Maybe I can get the front tighter in place tomorrow, or maybe I'll take it down and adjust. Or maybe I'll leave it.... Not sure yet.

Still need to sand/clean out the track on the boom and get it ready to install.

Couldn't help ourselves, had to lift the sail and see how it looked. I was super happy with how easily it went up and when done it literally fell back down from its own weight. The diy track and the slugs I installed on the sail seem to work really well together.

I had originally planned to mount the mast lower in the canoe as well as leave room to upgrade to a larger sail..... Kind of looks funny with so much mast sticking above the sail, but maybe a good excuse to get a flag to fly above it.
20210723_203231.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:43 am
by Jaysen
Use the jib halyard to raid the mast. Typically you would also put a whisker pole in the lower third with the halyard run through the outside eye. This gives you some initial advantage. Look up “deck stepped mast raising” and you should see some pics.

The rake looks right. Great job. Can wait to see you ripping around on the water!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:02 am
by Jeff
Nice work Narfi, she looks great!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:45 pm
by narfi
Boom done, downhaul and outhaul and two halyards set up with cleats to tie to.

Now that the boom and mast are out of the tent I can clean up a bit and make room to finish the boards and cases. Then rigging them and the traveler and sheet system.
20210724_180516.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:52 am
by narfi
My wife came out and helped me tidy up the tent and table. Ready for the final push on boards and cases now.
Then roasted sausages around our fire pit and s'mores and stories with guests at our bnb.
20210725_175009.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:29 am
by narfi
Rudders, leeboard and rudder cases primed with 2 coats, ready to paint tomorrow.
That's all the composite parts, just aluminium parts left to make and not painting them..... Maybe in the water this weekend if all goes perfectly, next week if not.
20210728_191021.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:41 pm
by Netpackrat
If there is not enough adjustment in the turnbuckles it might be easier to use lashings in a boat of that size.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:26 am
by narfi
Netpackrat wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:41 pm If there is not enough adjustment in the turnbuckles it might be easier to use lashings in a boat of that size.
Good idea, or maybe a combination of both.... Will see if /when I need to do more adjustments.

Got 2 coats of white sprayed on the boards and cases, so painting is done, just aluminum and assembly remain. Ran out of mixed paint on the cases and decided "it's not an art project" and called it done and cleaned the gun.

My wife asked me, "why do you keep saying that?" And I said, "saying what?"...... "It's not an art project"........ Guess I'm struggling with not making it perfect more than I realized :p

Lake was nice so we went trolling. We each got a lake trout, wife got first one, I got smallest and Landon got largest. Brutus gave them all a loving lick on the nose before sending them back.
20210730_061501.jpg
20210729_201424.jpg
20210729_201942.jpg
20210729_201944.jpg
20210729_201953.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:35 am
by cape man
NICE TROUT!!!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:16 am
by narfi
Almost there!!!! Got everything installed and most of the rigging done. The bungee material I ordered hasn't come yet, not sure if I wait or rig something else up.....

The traveler is super smooth and I'm happy with it. Was running out of pullies so used the amazon block and tackle kit for the sheets even though it's more leverage than I need.

The rudder retracts work great at 2:1 but I was hoping to link them together.... Too heavy together so will stick to retracting them separately. The leeboard wouldn't lift at 2:1 and is 'okish' at 4:1, hopefully the bungee down on rudders and board don't make them too difficult to lift, I think rudders will be ok but may end up needing to adjust the leeboard both down and up and not just up like the rudders..... Will see.

My biggest struggle was the rudder steering, I think I made my arms too short, but have an idea to change the linkage on them to 3:1 which should hopefully be 'just right'.

Of course life is always there distracting. We got the boarders of our new patios poured this weekend, hopefully main pads today or tomorrow. I haven't needed to help much, the guys doing it are great, but always try to be around if needed without micromanaging a project I don't know how to do.
20210801_210117.jpg
20210801_211121.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:37 pm
by Jeff
Narfi, She looks really good!! Any idea on completed weight?? Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:51 pm
by narfi
Jeff wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:37 pm Narfi, She looks really good!! Any idea on completed weight?? Jeff
Rough guess is 350lbs with the canoe, outriggers, mast, boom, beams and boards..... honestly dont know though..... I think it should still float :P

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:00 pm
by Jeff
Not bad Narfi!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:27 pm
by VT_Jeff
That looks really, really slick/professional Narfi, great work!

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:36 pm
by cape man
Can't wait for the launch.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:42 pm
by Jeff
I agree Cape Man!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:45 am
by narfi
Just need bungee material to hold down the rudders and leeboard. (Got a cord tied to the leeboard so can do a trial run without kick up safety, hopefully find two crappy old bungees around the village somewhere for the rudders untill the good stuff shows up.)

It's heavy but the hand truck wheels I got for the canoe seems to hold it up.... Too tippy for the ~mile treck down the gravel runway to the water though..... Thinking I'll just make 2x4 'V's to strap to the bottoms of the outriggers to work as skids.

Maybe today but it's looking pretty busy so might not be till tomorrow. The cement truck we were going to use yesterday for the patios was broke down and the 1yrd mixer in the village was in use, so today hopefully pouring front patio today and back tomorrow... Cutting it close, I blocked off a week for our Airbnb and guests arrive tomorrow....... Hopefully they can get to the front door o.0
20210803_061650.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:59 pm
by TomW1
Looking great Narfi. Have fun on her. Tom

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:38 am
by narfi
First launch was amazing! Pictures posted here,
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=65791&p=492100#p492100

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:12 am
by narfi
So... Second sail today. We did a pass around the bay then headed for open water... Wind was a little better than first night but still quite mild. We hit quite a few dead spots but always picked back up and maintained forward motion.

The waves on the lake were not bad and the trimaran was solid, but the mast moved a lot and the forestay which I knew was loose was worse with the stress on it so we turned back and got back to the ramp safely. The wind had mostly died off when we entered the channel to the bay and we had to tack a few times to get through, got off to the side as much as possible when a float plane was landing and hit the leeboard close to shore once. The cord stretched some when hit and I think maybe some stretchier rope might be good enough for kickup on it.

The trailer under canoe and skids under outriggers is working great behind the Honda 4wheeler the less than 1 mile down the runway to the boat ramp.

After we got home I redid the forestay and shrouds much tighter then started fiddling with the steering system, first dummied up longer yokes which helped some but still not good. Dummied up some tillers and they were very smooth. I just need to stop being stubborn with the cable system and make some tillers. :(

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:35 am
by Fuzz
You will get there! When you design and build your first sail boat I would be shocked if there were not some teething problems.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:15 am
by Jeff
Almost there Narfi!!! Congrats to you and Landon!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:25 pm
by narfi
Do they still make slip-n-slides? When I was a kid we had one. I imagine if you covered it in a few gallons of vegetable oil and doused yourself in more oil..... That's about how slick and smooth my new steering system is.

Only concern now is to keep them from banging around while trailering..... Bare wood till we can test it on the water.... It is a prototype after all... Made it all with 2x4s on the band saw. The crossover pole was a scrap cut off a 2by from the structure for our new patio roof. Knocked the corners off the square with the cordless DeWalt plainer and (not much effort put into it) sanded the 8 new corners a little.

Eyebolts in the ends of the tillers and rod with a plastic rod (off cuts from the rudder hinge pins) as the connecting pin with washers and cotter pins.
20210814_180306.jpg
20210814_180317.jpg
20210814_180340.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:48 am
by narfi
narfi wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:09 pm I think I figured out how to make it way too strong.... Now just need to figure out a compromise of too tough to ever break and too heavy to float.....

Capture.JPG
Should have done it like this..... now I have to do it anyway :)
20210819_182508.jpg
20210819_182508.jpg (107.6 KiB) Viewed 1998 times
20210819_182458.jpg
20210819_182458.jpg (96.54 KiB) Viewed 1998 times


Edit: guess quoting myself doesn't show the picture, you can look back at it, it is my original drawing of the gussets to support the leeboard case.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:59 am
by Jaysen
narfi wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:48 am
20210819_182458.jpg



Edit: guess quoting myself doesn't show the picture, you can look back at it, it is my original drawing of the gussets to support the leeboard case.
That's because they are attachments and not gallery photos. phpBB is very inconsistent in properly managing attachment includes. Gallery includes will never fail in quotes (unless you remove the image tags)

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:48 am
by narfi
Work is still summer busy (not sure if it will slow for winter or not) so haven't got a lot done, weather hasn't been great either.... Mostly both excuses for feeling lazy in the evenings last week........

Cut and kicked the leeboard case till I broke it off the beam and rebuilding it. I hadn't glassed the inside corners any first time around, this time 3x layers of 6oz on each corner and another layer of 6oz between them, so 4 layers right at each inside corner.

3x layers of 12oz biax around the outside corners. (Overkill anyone?)

I cut into the glass on the beam quite a bit getting the case off, so filled the cuts and played 2x layers of 12oz biax over it. Should more than reinforce the area where the case and new gussets will bond.

We have had 2 frosts already..... Running out of good epoxy days and sometimes taking 2 days till I can send it now.... Hopefully we can get it done and back in the water still some this fall.

If I was to do it all over again.... I think I'd make keels on each of the outriggers with reinforced axel holes in each. In my imagination that would have been a pretty slick 'trailer' idea and one less moving part to worry about on the water. This is still fun though :)
20210830_175001.jpg
20210830_175026.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:05 pm
by VT_Jeff
narfi wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:48 am Work is still summer busy (not sure if it will slow for winter or not) so haven't got a lot done, weather hasn't been great either.... Mostly both excuses for feeling lazy in the evenings last week........

Cut and kicked the leeboard case till I broke it off the beam and rebuilding it. I hadn't glassed the inside corners any first time around, this time 3x layers of 6oz on each corner and another layer of 6oz between them, so 4 layers right at each inside corner.

3x layers of 12oz biax around the outside corners. (Overkill anyone?)

I cut into the glass on the beam quite a bit getting the case off, so filled the cuts and played 2x layers of 12oz biax over it. Should more than reinforce the area where the case and new gussets will bond.

We have had 2 frosts already..... Running out of good epoxy days and sometimes taking 2 days till I can send it now.... Hopefully we can get it done and back in the water still some this fall.

If I was to do it all over again.... I think I'd make keels on each of the outriggers with reinforced axel holes in each. In my imagination that would have been a pretty slick 'trailer' idea and one less moving part to worry about on the water. This is still fun though :)

Love the trailer idea! Crazy that the season is coming to a close. Still nice weather here in Upstate NY but days are getting noticeably shorter, nights cooler, and the Geese are SENDING it already! No frosts in sight, you get the belt there.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:48 am
by narfi
Well it's starting to look like the drawing my former self had planned for the case......

Started drizzling last night but I think the thickened epoxy was set enough it hopefully won't have too much affect on it.... Will see if it gets nice enough today to dry the plywood so I can glass it.
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (32.74 KiB) Viewed 2162 times
20210901_171631.jpg
20210901_171655.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:44 pm
by narfi
Monday was last day before school started so even though there wasn't much wind we took the freshly repaired boat out for a sail.

By the time we got out the channel to the main lake it had pretty much died completely. The sail didn't even rattle.... I had to paddle periodically to keep us pointed the right direction and we just hung out enjoying a beautiful evening going nowhere....

After an hour or so of paddle drifting out neighbors pulled up in a boat to say hi and we invited their son to finish the 'sail' with us. Kind of a fun operation, me doing the splits between the canoe and one outrigger holding the gunnel of their boat and then his hand as he stepped on the outrigger and then stabilized him as he walked across the front beam into the canoe. Then I got to realize how old I was trying to go from doing the splits over open water to somehow getting back in the canoe myself.....

About that time the breeze picked up slightly and we sailed out to the middle of the lake and then back in around the island and home. We scraped bottom a couple of times but the fiberglass reinforced leading edge corners were not affected at our slow speeds.

Back into the bay the wind died down again so we paddled back to the ramp.

All in all a very slow but enjoyable afternoon.

Back on the cart and pulled it home, I hit a tree in our driveway with the starboard rudder and ripped it off :(

Back to the manufacturer for warentee work....

Just when I thought I was ready to dig out the plane project again another boat repair :p

No damage to the hull side of the hinge, just tore the rudder side off, so can repair it on the table.
20210906_194650.jpg
20210907_165859.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:33 pm
by VT_Jeff
Tough luck Narfi. Is it worth considering using some type of shear pin to avoid rudder damage?

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:55 pm
by narfi
Maybe.... But not often it would ever see forces like that. I can't blame the design, hitting something solid when being towed will end in something breaking. I'm lucky it didn't do more damage.

The pins I am using are plastic and I wondered if they would be strong enough... Obviously they were.

What kind of pin could I use that would be strong and slick enough for normal usage, yet break under impact?

To be fair I don't seem too opposed to dragging on the bottom from time to time. So they need to be able to withstand those forces without disabling the boat.

Current plan is to repair back to what it was as it was *"hangar rash" not normal use that damaged it.

*what we call it when we push a plane into another plane or wall or toolbox or run a ground vehicle into an aircraft causing some sort of damage.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:49 pm
by narfi
Picture for Jayson. Was hoping for another nice afternoon to take the sailboat out before it got too cold...... But might be time to unbolt the canoe and flip it over. :(
20210922_122517.jpg

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:56 pm
by Jeff
Wow Narfi, way too early for snow!!!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:04 pm
by Jaysen
You all really need to move someplace where the precipitation is always liquid.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:51 pm
by Fuzz
No snow yet but it was 22f here this morning on this side of the mountain so it is not far away.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:31 am
by Jeff
Wow Fuzz!! Too cold up there!! You and Narfi take good care of yourselves!! Jeff

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:45 am
by Jaysen
I guess I know who to blame for the unacceptable cold this morning. Went outside for my run. 64f

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 1:59 am
by narfi
Drug the outriggers out to repair the mounting brackets I damaged when removing the canoe last fall. Heard some water sloshing inside....... Rear compartments in both sides.... :(

I need to cut them open and see what I find. Landon crawled under and found exposed wood at the bottom of the rudder hinge, so maybe I did more damage when I ripped off the rudders than I realized... Will have to see.

Re: HC14 to Sailing Trimaran!

Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 12:57 am
by narfi
Finally got time to cut them open. Cut 6in holes in each rear compartment. Port side was about half full of water and starboard 1/4 full.
20220520_191036.jpg

20220520_192108.jpg
20220520_192128.jpg
The port side I can see what looks like a screw hole, I'm guessing from holding down the hinges while I was epoxying them to the outside... I thought I had filled all those holes really well, but apparently not. I don't see anything obvious on the starboard side but probably something similar.

Will let it air out a few days and think about it. Probably a good coat of epoxy inside, and real close attention on the outside esp where Landon saw some bared wood on bottom corners though I think that's just abrasion... Still good to fix it.

Then I have the huge holes I cut on the tops... Maybe make some plates to glue over with 5200 so they are watertight but can easily be cut off for inspection if needed.

Open to simple suggestions :)

This evening the wind was perfect to have been out playing around in the bay with it... So I'd like to get it fixed up and ready :)