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LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:37 am
by les2021
Hi Guys ( first post !!! )

First let me tell you who and where I am....
My name is Les and I am originally from the UK but have lived in the Greek Islands for the last three years.

Thanks Reid for putting up with my early pain in the back side emails and helping me find my way and LEARN.....

Build an LB26, sounds really easy when you say it fast.... The project does not phase me BUT I know I have a lot to learn ( fibreglassing )

Ok so living on an island means I have source materials and learn about what materials I can obtain way in advance as all will need to come via ferry to the island. I have found a very helpful guy from Athens with regard Resin, Glass etc. The problem is spec's are different, I sent the BOM and he has come back with the following

Corcecell M80 ( this sounds ok ? )
Epoxy resin Ampreg 31 R/H
Biaxial Glass Fabric 400gr
Biaxial Glass Fabric 600gr
Triaxial Fabric 900gr

The temp here will star to rise now and will rise to about 70 degrees in April, then in May we start to get hot 80+ degrees. Should I be using fast / medium /or slow hardener as a beginner ???

Jacques / Guys can you comment on this ?

Timber is not a problem although very expensive on the island.

Engine unit good suppliers but OUCH ( that is going to cost me many outfits and flowers for Nicki..... )

I am planning to start the mold's in about two weeks and get underway so expect idiot posts over the coming days !!!!

I have read many threads including Reefie's, class act and very knowledgeable ( my thread stopped on page 38, did it continue as it was very helpful )

I think that has probably bored you all enough so will stop there....

Look forward to your responses.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:22 am
by fallguy1000
Not sure, don't recall triax glass.

Recheck your build book or ask JM for alternatives because your glass citations are wrong. You need to find different glass as well as another.

The core and resins are great choices. Corecell M is top of the line stuff. If you postcure the hull; you can paint it dark even.

I can help you more with glass, but I won't until Mertens replies because you seem to be misquoting the build book. Whenever that happens, I worry about splashing which is using or making plans based off pictures online or another hull, etc. And I like to protect intellectual property.

The main resin for an amateur is slow. Fast hardeners were used by me for fillets around bulkheads. A few times now and then I wish I had fast, but mainly for fairing. Commercial fairing compounds like quikfair have kick times of about 30 minutes and set fast for as many as 5 sandings in 24 hours. However, a person working alone rarely has the ability to get 3 coats and sandings and vacuumings done in a single day. It is simply too much for most parts. For the main hull work, you may consider tropical set which is typically 2 hour resin. But it may require post curing which means making an oven to cook the boat in. If you buy any fast, maybe 1/2 gallon at most for fillets. I do not sand fillets. I make them with fast resin and immediately wet tapes and tab with slow resins.

Anyhow, I look forward to helping you more. Please cite the book correctly and I can help a bit with metric conversions.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:31 am
by les2021
Hi

Sorry if I did not explain clearly... I have and understand the design requirements as per the BOM and notes. It is just these are the products this guy supplies.

My question to Jacques was can these be used as a substitute for the spec ?

Thanks for my first reply....

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:47 am
by Browndog
Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your decision to start a boat building project.

The area where I live is hot and humid in the summer and the slow cure epoxy still cures plenty fast enough, sometimes too fast. I would concur with Fallguy that slow cure is probably best for a DIY build. During the colder times of year the slow cure can take a while to set-up, but can be dealt with by keeping the epoxy resin containers in an indoor warm area, a hot water bath or heated container like a box with a light bulb in it.

The challenges of living in a remote area where supplies are scarce and transportation of components is difficult is a reality for many builders. I admire the ingenuity of the builders that is displayed on the forum and encourage you to not be dissuaded by such obstacles. Some pretty impressive boats have been built in far corners of the world with limited resources.

That being said, more projects have suffered from compromising on the quality of materials for the hull than probably anything else. In the full scope of the project, the cost of materials for the hull is dwarfed by the cost of engines, steering, electronics, fittings and labor. It is rare that a self built boat will be more economical than buying a used boat in good condition.

Best wishes to you as you embark on a challenging but rewarding project. The forum participants, designers and hosts are very helpful and the encouragement, support, technical assistance and admiration that you will receive is a tremendous benefit.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:46 am
by Jeff
Les, Welcome to the Builders Forum!! Give Jacques a little while to get back to you as I am confident he will!! Look forward to your build!!! Jeff

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:42 am
by fallguy1000
1708 is the same as 600/225 45/45

1808 is 600/225 0-90

If you cannot source the specified materials; you will need to see if the designer will provide an alternate. But you are going to need a pallet of materials or three, so expect a freight bill.

Jacque may accept the triax, but you are still missing the 90 strands.

If you use triax; remember the 0 strands are always away from foam; not to..

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:42 am
by les2021
Morning

Thanks Fallguy / Browndog

Agreed I will wait for the designer reply and the ask more questions.

What is the usual reply time from Jacques ?

Has anyone got an answer to the Reefie thread as I can only see it up to page 38.

Dare I ask has anyone who has built a LB26 got a build cost ???

Thanks

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:09 am
by fallguy1000
Not a cheap boat to build with the best core and epoxy in the world.

The 08 designation on the glass will also drive cost, but the alternative is not typically less glass. If you need say two layers of 1708, the designer isn't going to swap the csm for less glass. He put that designation in to reduce layers of work.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:33 am
by jacquesmm
I replied yesterday but don't see my reply here. Could that bea c ross post, a double post?
Anyway, I said that what matters for each skin if the total weight of the glass and the direction. It does not matter if you use biax or triax , it's the total weight that counts.
I am going to look for my reply from yesterday, it was more detailed but please, do not cross post.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:16 am
by jacquesmm
About material substitutions.
What matters if the total weight and fiber direction.
For example, let's say that you have a skin made from 2 layers of biaxial 45/45 400 gr plus 1 layer 0-90 400 gr plus a finish layer of woven 200 gr.
That means you have 2 times 200 gr (2 times half of the 400 gr) at 45 degrees, the same 400 gr at 135 degrees, 200gr (half of 400 gr) at 0 and 200 gr at 90 plus the final woven which 100 gr at 0 and 100 gr at 90.
That is what you need.
It does not matter if all that glass comes in biaxial, triaxial and there is even quadri axial. What matters is to get that same total for strength. Approximately: no need to calculate to the 3rd decimal when I anyway apply a safety margin of 50%.
Now, there is also thickness. You must get the same total thickness. That will usually work because many of those directional fabrics have some matt stitched to it. One extra thin layer of mat is OK but don't add too much matt, it will make the boat heavy.
Another point is woven. The woven fabric is about 20% weaker than the directional. In the example above (fictitious laminate, not the LB26), we have a 400 gr total of 0-90. Can we replace that with 400 gr woven? Not in theory, it should be 480 gr woven to get the same strength. I don't know any 480 or 500gr woven but 240 gr is common -> use 2 layers of 240 gr to replace the 400 gr of 0-90. Directional is better but if you have no choice, substitute.
Take in account the mat if you must compensate a little bit here and there.

I specify common, easy to find fabrics.
I use little tricks like finishing with a woven fabric to make fairing easier. I limit my specs to glass that wet out easily: a 600 gr triax does not bend well and is hard to wet, same for a very common 2415. The lighter fabrics will go around corners without air bubbles.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:35 am
by les2021
Hi Jacques

Thanks for your post.

I think there must be some confusion. I have not sent an email and I have only sent 1 post.
I live on the island of Crete so Turkey is a long way away...
I have a lot to learn regard fibreglass so will study your post. It may mean coming back to you once I have received more info from the supplier.

Many Thanks

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:53 pm
by jacquesmm
Sorry, we have a couple of LB26's underway and one of the builders send questions by email. I thought it was you.
I will remove the note about Turkey.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:26 am
by les2021
Hi All

Fibreglass !!!!! Please give your feed back Jacques guys..... ( nice please )

I have spoken again with my supplier ( trust me it is not easy in Greece ) It looks like I can obtain the following. If I take the laminating schedule
" Bottom"
From outside I can obtain
Woven roving 300gr ( knitted)
Biaxial 825 gr ( +45 -45 ) unidirectional 600gr +225gr mat
Biaxial 825 gr ( 0 - 90 ) 60gr + 225 gr mat
Biaxial 825gr ( +45 -45 ) 600gr + 45 mat

The DB120 tape seems to be a problem for some reason... question can I cut this down from a sheet material or bite the bullet and order from Reid ?

As mentioned before I plan to use Corecell M80. In the Foam Sandwich section it mentions high density foam at certain areas ie deck where cleats etc are fixed, where keel is fixed. Is the M80 sufficient or do I need something stronger ?

With regard that question I am planning ( in the distant future ) to teak the deck and cockpit is this sufficient for fixing the cleats etc on its own ?

I plan to start the molds in about a week, on Reefie's excellent thread he built the chine with a tapered chine / spray rail. Can I form this in M80 ? should I build this in or plant on later ? What should be the ideal size at the transom. Excuse my terminology !!!

The above also applies to the keel, should this be built in or add after glassing ?

Jacques is there anything I need to know if I am planning to Teak the decks etc ?

For some reason I never got an answer to the question is Reefie still building ?

Cheers Guys

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:06 pm
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:26 am Hi All

Fibreglass !!!!! Please give your feed back Jacques guys..... ( nice please )

I have spoken again with my supplier ( trust me it is not easy in Greece ) It looks like I can obtain the following. If I take the laminating schedule
" Bottom"
From outside I can obtain
Woven roving 300gr ( knitted)??not sure I'd use any roving, are you sure this is not woven? No roving is specified, but woven is if I recall.

Biaxial 825 gr ( +45 -45 ) unidirectional 600gr +225gr mat
This is 600/225-same as 1708 in spec

Biaxial 825 gr ( 0 - 90 ) 60gr + 225 gr mat
This is spec same as 1808, you have a typo I think, should be 600z


Biaxial 825gr ( +45 -45 ) 600gr + 45 mat
Not sure what this one is..

The DB120 tape seems to be a problem for some reason... question can I cut this down from a sheet material or bite the bullet and order from Reid ?

Db120 is same as 400g biaxial. You can cut it, but it will snake a lot for you handling it all. A good alternate is 400/225 with a weight penalty, but much easier to use. Ask the supplier about biaxial 400 or biaxial 400 with mat.

As mentioned before I plan to use Corecell M80. In the Foam Sandwich section it mentions high density foam at certain areas ie deck where cleats etc are fixed, where keel is fixed. Is the M80 sufficient or do I need something stronger ? M80 is insufficient for cleats or where loading may occur. For cleats; you can fully decore prior to glassing or use a higher density material.

With regard that question I am planning ( in the distant future ) to teak the deck and cockpit is this sufficient for fixing the cleats etc on its own ?

No.

I plan to start the molds in about a week, on Reefie's excellent thread he built the chine with a tapered chine / spray rail. Can I form this in M80 ? should I build this in or plant on later ? What should be the ideal size at the transom. Excuse my terminology !!!

I would build the spray rail with M80 unless you think it can get dinged in which case you can use 12-20 pound density foams

The above also applies to the keel, should this be built in or add after glassing ?
The keel is added after the monocoque glassing afaik. It should be in the notes, though.


Jacques is there anything I need to know if I am planning to Teak the decks etc ?

Teak is something of a can of worms. I believe it can be glued down. You need to know how it will be fastened and if bonding it down; you do not want to bond to paint. Mechanical fastenings are a terrible idea, but I only know the rumors. Zero experience.


For some reason I never got an answer to the question is Reefie still building ?

Not sure. Reefie was doing some farming or he might have got tired of me commenting.

Cheers Guys

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:07 pm
by les2021
Cheers Fallguy

It should have read 600gr

The last one is a typo as well... should have read 600gr + 225gr not 45.

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:10 pm
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:26 am Hi All

Fibreglass !!!!! Please give your feed back Jacques guys..... ( nice please )

I have spoken again with my supplier ( trust me it is not easy in Greece ) It looks like I can obtain the following. If I take the laminating schedule
" Bottom"
From outside I can obtain
Woven roving 300gr ( knitted)??not sure I'd use any roving, are you sure this is not woven? No roving is specified, but woven is if I recall.

Biaxial 825 gr ( +45 -45 ) unidirectional 600gr +225gr mat
This is 600/225-same as 1708 in spec

Biaxial 825 gr ( 0 - 90 ) 60gr + 225 gr mat
This is spec same as 1808, you have a typo I think, should be 600z


Biaxial 825gr ( +45 -45 ) 600gr + 45 mat
Not sure what this one is..

The DB120 tape seems to be a problem for some reason... question can I cut this down from a sheet material or bite the bullet and order from Reid ?

Db120 is same as 400g biaxial. You can cut it, but it will snake a lot for you handling it all. A good alternate is 400/225 with a weight penalty, but much easier to use. Ask the supplier about biaxial 400 or biaxial 400 with mat.

As mentioned before I plan to use Corecell M80. In the Foam Sandwich section it mentions high density foam at certain areas ie deck where cleats etc are fixed, where keel is fixed. Is the M80 sufficient or do I need something stronger ? M80 is insufficient for cleats or where loading may occur. For cleats; you can fully decore prior to glassing or use a higher density material.

With regard that question I am planning ( in the distant future ) to teak the deck and cockpit is this sufficient for fixing the cleats etc on its own ?

No.

I plan to start the molds in about a week, on Reefie's excellent thread he built the chine with a tapered chine / spray rail. Can I form this in M80 ? should I build this in or plant on later ? What should be the ideal size at the transom. Excuse my terminology !!!

I would build the spray rail with M80 unless you think it can get dinged in which case you can use 12-20 pound density foams

The above also applies to the keel, should this be built in or add after glassing ?
The keel is added after the monocoque glassing afaik. It should be in the notes, though.


Jacques is there anything I need to know if I am planning to Teak the decks etc ?

Teak is something of a can of worms. I believe it can be glued down. You need to know how it will be fastened and if bonding it down; you do not want to bond to paint. Mechanical fastenings are a terrible idea, but I only know the rumors. Zero experience.


For some reason I never got an answer to the question is Reefie still building ?

Not sure. Reefie was doing some farming or he might have got tired of me commenting.

Cheers Guys

Les
By fully decore, I mean glass one side of the deck. Then remove the core at the cleat locations; then use epoxy putty where the mounting of the cleat will go. If the deck is 5/8" thick; this might be a LOT of putty; it should be done in 2 fills. Fill one should be about 3/8" thick; allow it to kick, so fill and wait about one hour and feel for heat; if the bond is still rather warm; give it more time and then fill it a second time to avoid the putty cracking from excess exotherm. It is possible it will still shrink and the next day need to be topped off with a third coat. Then you can sand it flush before glassing the reverse side.

You do not want to remove too much foam. For an 8" cleat; just remove a small circle of foam under each mount; not the entire area. You could also use a 20-26# core in those areas, but I decored as needed.

The keel material can be M80 per the notes on page 6, or you can use a higher density material. Personally, I'd use some M120. But it is terribly expensive; so you may use coosa or aquaplas or Renicell or something with 12-26 pound density you can buy in a smaller panel. It does say on page 6 the hull is laid and glassed and the keel is added on top of a glassed hull. I believe the keel glass spec is missing. He has a tabbing spec and verified the keel spec in a thread here and I forgot to redmark my planbook. Because the keel can ground; I'd tend to glass it heavier than lighter.

If any of my replies are confusing, let me know.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:17 pm
by fallguy1000
The keel is to be glassed 3x 600/225 45:45 and overlap the pieces onto the hull something like 4,3,2". Fillets and radiuses are required to get the glass to conform. When glassing; you pull the consolidation roller only away from outside radiuses and into the corners. You cannot move the roller both directions or air will entrain.

For the bottom overlaps, same, only push the glass toward the keel or air will entrain if you move the roller outboard. Lay the largest pieces first or again, air will entrain under the edges.

It may be tricky to layup the keel without air bubbles. You could also use a vac pump on peelply and release film. Or you can repair air pockets with injection or regrinding and filling with bonding paste as needed. If you choose to use vacuum; message me and I can tell you how. Even a shop vac could work.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:39 am
by les2021
Hi Fallguy

Your help is useful keep it coming. The Woven is as per the attached
Woven Roving fiberglass-1000x1000.jpg
Woven Roving fiberglass-1000x1000.jpg
Not sure these attachments have loaded correct let me know....

The description reads as follows Very thin light, knitted woven roving glass fabric. 300gr, 0.5mm thickness.

Will reply to your earlier post clarifying a few points.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:38 am
by fallguy1000
The fabric looks perfect. Typically when I think of a nice woven, the fill and the warp are equal weights. This makes them finish nicer I think. Your pictures look right.

And the weave is typically plain 1:1. The pictures appear as such as well.

I am far from a cloth expert, but know the metric equivalents. For some reason, when I think of woven rovings, images of fancy weaves come to mind, but this is an error in my brain. I'd rather challenge and help than be a yes man and mess you up.

Pay attention to the placement of the transom mold. I believe it goes on station 9, from memory, and not 10. But easy to botch and then make the boat longer.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:42 am
by fallguy1000
In the spec sheet, it calls for double the resin of the weight for impregnation of the fibers. This seems odd. Please test a small sample and don't trust the brochure. Most wovens are laid up 1:1, which means 300g of fabric wets with 300g of resins. A resin rich layup of 200% of the fabric is crazy and results in a poorer laminate. This could be marketing bs to push their resin sales up.

Here is a chart that suggests 300g roving needs 330g resin. This is much closer to my expectations.

http://www.nivitex.com/resin-glassfibre-ratios.html

Dan

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:40 am
by jacquesmm
A lot was discussed this week-end. I will reply one item at a time.
Glass substitutions: it looks like your selections are correct but I will check them later today.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:48 am
by jacquesmm
Keel and bottom:
All my specs are based on keep in mind that all my specs are based on Divynicell. Corecell type A is better, type M even better. Those cores are more expensive but excellent.
My specs are very close to what the Corecell design manual shows for Corecell A and include a safety margin.
For the keel, check my HowTo file, page 12 to page 18:
https://boatbuildercentral.com/support- ... how-to.pdf and see how we build a single skin keel. That is what I recommend for the LB26. Minimum 6" (15 cm) wide. ABS says beam/15.
Read the text about grinding the foam core down when the boat is flipped.
An alternative is to switch core there and go for Corecell 1200 or even 1800. tapered transition.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:56 am
by jacquesmm
Deck inserts:
the teak deck is decorative, not structural. Do not take it in account for the cleats.
See my shop manual page 23, use a high density insert. It can be Corecell or any transom foam. See what is available.
Pay attention to the bonding properties of some of those foams.
You will have left overs of transom foam to make inserts. Inserts are much easier than filling with putty.
We want to avoid crushing light foam. If foam is crushed by the bolts, cleats may move, water may get in the core.
BTW, you can taper those inserts.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:08 pm
by fallguy1000
fyi, another alternative is to bush the cleats with tubing. Preferrably same metal or weaker. You can bush with same thickness of the core and glass....the bushing needs to be thick enough to not crush between the hardware and backing plate...if you miss decoring or hd coring; bushing is a fallback

Dan Fall

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:49 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Question for Jacques and you guys.....

Still having a few problems sourcing Materials !!!

For the woven glass the guy is suggesting the following. Are any of these two any good ??? They only come in 1m wide.

And for some reason the tape is causing a problem.. This is the suggestion.
glass tapes-1000x1000.jpg
glass tapes-1000x1000.jpg
andreou_logo_big-1110x304.png
Let me know what you think ??

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:03 am
by les2021
Oops

I will try again....
Scan 126.pdf
(110 KiB) Downloaded 17 times
Scan 127.pdf
(116.88 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
Scan 128.pdf
(118.96 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
Hope this works...

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:37 am
by jacquesmm
Not suitable, sorry.
When you tape the seams, the direction of the fibers is very important. The fibers must be at 45 degrees of the seam.
Image
See picture: with biaxial 45/45, all fibers works.
With Uni (your 1st one), no fiber goes across the seam = very weak.
With woven , only half of the fibers work and they are at a sharp angle = air bubbles.

It is important to use biaxial 45/45 for all the seams.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:09 pm
by les2021
Thanks Jacques

I thought as much, I will order the tape from Reid.
What about the woven alternatives ???
It seems to be a real pain over here, they use a different approach. I will get there !!!!

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:47 am
by les2021
Hi

Jacques / Guys

Sorry to be a pain over this but I am trying to finalise my glass order. It seems the woven Roving 300 is now unavailable !! He has suggested another product please see attached it is a Biaxial 400gr 45/45 the weight seems to be the same.

So can this replace the Woven roving 300
Scan.jpeg
Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:58 am
by fallguy1000
Not really well.

This biax would add weight and cost. While it is suitable strengthwise, the designer's purpose in ending with woven is to reduce the amount of fairing to fill the weave. A 400g biax fabric is nice to work with, but leaves lots of ridges. The weight added is 6 oz per yard, but much more with fills; perhaps up to say 1 pound per yard of added cost. So, for all that surface; you are driving cost and vessel weight and work required to fair.

Structurally, it is fine. But why build the boat heavy? Why spend more to do so?

I watched a video of a woman working very hard to reduce her vessel weight by 22kg. The entire time, I thought, what a foolish woman. At the end of the video, she said, now, my reward and showed a wine locker in the floor which accomdated 22kg or 10 bottles of wine. I love her now.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:48 am
by jacquesmm
Correct. That final layer is not structural or play a only a small role. It's function is to end up with a fine weave, easy to sand. You can use something lighter than 200 gr if available.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:58 am
by fallguy1000
100g woven is probably available, easy to work with as well.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:56 am
by les2021
Hi Dan

Thanks for the last lot of info.

Sorry it has been a busy week, trying to get all the spring house and garden stuff done before I disappear into the workshop....

If all goes well I should start the molds end of this coming week !!! I have read and re read all the threads and studied the plans, I think I am happy apart from a couple of points that may affect the molds.

JACQUES / GUYS

I have drawn the stations to scale and I am ok with the transom mold attaching to 9+ this then gives the correct boat length.

As per REEFIE'S masterpiece I am planning to fit a bow thruster any thing I need to know beforehand ???

IMPORTANT ONE... Are there any structural details regarding the towing hook for winching the boat onto a trailer ???

The CHINE SPRAY rail I understand it can be fitted later. BUT Jacques mentions the LB26 has a CHINE STEP !!! I can not find this detailed anywhere ( it could be me ) If this is so surely it will affect my station molds ???

JACQUES / GUYS HELP can anyone enlighten me ? A SMALL SKETCH LOOKIN THROUGH FROM THE TRANSOM WOULD BE GOOD ! ( chine spray rail and chine step )

I am still tackling the Greeks regarding the fibreglass !!! but think I am almost there.... It seems though due to Covid supplies are low and prices are high !!! WHAT A SURPRISE.....

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:35 am
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:56 am Hi Dan

Thanks for the last lot of info.

Sorry it has been a busy week, trying to get all the spring house and garden stuff done before I disappear into the workshop....

If all goes well I should start the molds end of this coming week !!! I have read and re read all the threads and studied the plans, I think I am happy apart from a couple of points that may affect the molds.

JACQUES / GUYS

I have drawn the stations to scale and I am ok with the transom mold attaching to 9+ this then gives the correct boat length.

As per REEFIE'S masterpiece I am planning to fit a bow thruster any thing I need to know beforehand ???

IMPORTANT ONE... Are there any structural details regarding the towing hook for winching the boat onto a trailer ???

Well, it would be wise to lay in some 20 pound or higher density coosa in the area of the hook. On my boat, it was an afterthought and cost me a small fortune. I spent about $700 on two machined eye bolts made 10" long and a butterflied piece of 12" stainless for bow hooks. My Skoota has a very narrow bow and in order to glass it up, it required 10" long bolts plus the 2" eye. Since I failed to get the proper core in there, I also needed to butterfly stainless to give the hook some lateral strength. Even a pull at sea might pull port or star and damage the core. For you, same concern. So, put a core in there before you start that is strong enough to not smash. The hull core is too light. I don't recall of JM catches this in the plans. Since the transom of the LB can be made lighter iirc; the same is true back there. Make a section of the transom with core material of 20#/cuft minimum density. I would say a piece of core about 8"x8" would be nice, but perhaps even 6"x6" would suffice. If you don't have access to such cores; you can also make them from solid glass, but that can't be done in a single go or they might catch fire. And solid glass chunks like that are a ton of work to make to say 15mm. I believe the 600/225 glass is about 1mm per layer, so you'd need 15 layers to get the thickness. But is an option if no alternative. Also, if you must build solid frp, measure and just build it 2" beyond the hook holes each way to reduce the effort. Solid frp is also stronger than coosa.


The CHINE SPRAY rail I understand it can be fitted later. BUT Jacques mentions the LB26 has a CHINE STEP !!! I can not find this detailed anywhere ( it could be me ) If this is so surely it will affect my station molds ???

I am not sure. I don't recall a chine step. I believe what you read is that a chine flat/step can be added. This is a touchy subject with boats and can create problems. I would only follow JM advice; otherwise add a rail. A step can create chine walk. It does reduce the spray quite a bit, but again, Mertens is the guy unless someone with the LB26 has done it. PS-JM calls the edge of the hull a tumblehome step. I think he will not advise a flat and only a rail. A rail is added after glassing the entire hull, and after fairing the hull, but before paint. Paint bonds are very weak vs epoxy.

JACQUES / GUYS HELP can anyone enlighten me ? A SMALL SKETCH LOOKIN THROUGH FROM THE TRANSOM WOULD BE GOOD ! ( chine spray rail and chine step )

I am still tackling the Greeks regarding the fibreglass !!! but think I am almost there.... It seems though due to Covid supplies are low and prices are high !!! WHAT A SURPRISE.....

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:29 am
by les2021
Hi

Cheers Dan

Jacques can you come back with any comments.

Thanks

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:11 pm
by TomW1
The chine is where the side and bottom meet. A chine step is a indentation of the bottom so that there is a cut out from the chine usually at a slight angle and then downwards to the bottom. You should be able to see this on your frame plans. This helps in steering and in handling rough water as they help stabilize the hull. Please post some pictures as you build your LB we have never seen a complete one built.

Keep posting and don't be afraid to ask questions Jacques will be following your build and all of us can help. Fallguy is getting close to finishing his foam boat, though he used vacuum bagging on a lot of his parts.

Good luck and keep posting.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:24 pm
by jacquesmm
One item at a time:
- chine and chine step: there is a chine and if you add a rail, it becomes a chine step. There is no true chine step in the design but I think one builder has added one. Not necessary IMHO.
- at the transom, along the side, the swim platform extend along the sides. That edge can be be called a chine fender. It protects the side along a dock and acts as a chine step. I recommend to build her that way.
- towing hook: she is not designed to be towed but she can be towed and have a towing/trailer hook. In that case, the core should be replaced with high density foam or build up thick in single skin just as I show in the foam sandwich tutorial.
- bow thruster: the same way: where a bow thruster tunnel is fiber glassed to the hull, the hull must be either a thick single skin or the core must be HD foam.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:14 pm
by fallguy1000
I found that Mertens answered this a bit in another thread.

The hull of the LB26 at the dwl has tumblehome which will act as a splashrail.


The thing I would be more concerned about is what impacts the dock.

I am not by the plans now, but check the plans on the aft stations and if the hull can get dock rash; add a splash rail.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:30 am
by les2021
Morning All

Thanks Tom / Dan / Jacques

Bit of a worry that nobody has posted past building the hull ( divorce maybe !!! )

Jacques thanks for your input. Let me see if I have this clear in my head ( empty head )

On the Deck and Superstructure drawing. On the top detail you show the swim platform only, on the bottom detail you show the swim platform only, on the middle detail if I read this correct you show a 102mm thick swim platform approx 160mm above DWL going to station 9 BUT the lines continue to the bow ? Is this the spray rail you are describing in your post tapered to the bow ? I am not sure my assumption is correct as the top and bottom detail clearly show just a swim platform....
If I decide to build the swim platform in teak or similar what would be the fixing connection of the side arms to the hull ?

Regarding the tow hook. Inserting high density not a problem, should I also build up layers of high density inside to create a thicker block, if I try and describe it... a triangular block in the bow 80mm thick ?

Tom I will start posting photos the second I get started, thanks for the encouragement.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:41 am
by fallguy1000
Be a bit careful on the thickness of the bow hook area. If you buy a standard hook of say 3", you can't go to 80mm thick. And paying for a custom made hook is super expensive. Mine were ridiculous; it was like 700 for the two. Still a bit mad about the cost.

Buy the hardware and then build to it.

Usually, you want a considerable backing plate for the hook as well. Mine are stainless about 14"x2". What you want to do is a calculation of the hulls mass.

For example, my boat is about 10,000# or a bit less.

At 25 square inches of backing plate, this is 200 psi, if two tow hooks are used 100 psi, but in towing, one hook can do all the work now n then.

No backing plate and one inch washers is 5000 psi.

The thickness of the core is less important than putting plenty of glass up there and making it flat enough for the backing plate. For you to achieve 100 psi on the hook, if the boat and gear is 4000#, you need say 3" wide by 14" long backing plate. The backing plates are best made with scraps of leftover glass. You can make them from 6 layers of 1708. I am going to remake some of mine as a kaizen later. Solid frp is best. So get the hook and make a flat spot however you can and wide enough for a backing plate that can get your psi ratings low enough. I grasped at straws on numbers I felt were reasonable.

My back hooks are four hooks with about 9" of backing plate each. So, a total of 36" of backing plate of you bridle rope the tow which you must. The worst is pressure on one bridle or 18", I'd be comfortable pulling something at 200 psi or say 3600 pounds. Not sure whether I am correct a bit on the ratings, but was my approach.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:36 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

At last all home projects are finished so hopefully will start molds within the next few weeks.

Geoff can you help me with a tech issue ( i am not techno at all ) I am going through all the LB26 threads again to wise up before I start.
Can not seem to access Reefie's photos.... comes up as image only ???

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:03 am
by Jeff
Les, I apologize but that is not something we can recover. His photos were likely linked to a program based on a timeline and that has since expired. Send him a private message and ask him to send you the photos. Sorry, Jeff

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:31 am
by les2021
Thanks Geoff

Next question.... How do I contact Reefie direct ? Has he listed a personal email ?

Phase one complete, Workshop..... All I need now is the boat !!!!

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:35 am
by les2021
01930E83-FEDA-474D-B2C1-6E59ED03328F.jpeg
Oops add photo

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:54 am
by Jeff
Les, You can send him a Private Message (PM) through this Forum. All you need is his name used on the Forum. Give it a try. I have not seen a post from him in some time!! Jeff

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:39 am
by les2021
Morning Guys

It seems Reefie is no longer listed on private messages.

If anyone has contact details for him could you send him a quick message asking if it is possible to get a copy of his build photos. They were so informative.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:03 am
by les2021
Jeff

Has anyone finished a LB26 ? I can not find any threads to that effect or in the launching section.

Just nosy really....

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:03 am
by Jaysen
Reefie (proper username reefie) is still in the messaging system. He may have disabled non-admin messaging though.

To find a user:
1. Go to your private message inbox.
2. Click “new message”
3. Click on “search for user”
4. Enter a part of the username in lower case
5. Click search
6. Select the user and the message “to” field will be populated.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:24 am
by Jeff
Les, Yes, there have been at least a dozen LB26's completed but like so many builders, they did not document the build through our Forum. One of the best LB26 builds was one built in Turkey. He never used the Forum & only sent us a few photos when completed!!! Jeff

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:45 am
by fallguy1000
Reefie's build was really cool. He was using a modified approach to sheathed strip planking where the glue up is all done at one time. The strips are held in place with screws until glued. Then glass and fair and flip and some glue work inside and sheath.

I was a bit hard on him for discontinuity in the direction of the strips. Then he changed them which seemed wise.

But I really thought the approach was interesting and was eager to see him glass the hull, so I am bummed he is not posting. The LB26 is a really beautiful hull. I am still tempted to build her, but I kinda need a skinny water/bay runner and she is not right for it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:02 am
by les2021
Morning All

Thanks Jaysen, Dan

Jacques / Jeff / Guys

Reefie seems to have removed himself from the data base !

Am I reading this correct ? On the Lines And Camber drawing, Profile it seems to show a station to the right of 0 making 0 - !!!

But there is not a station drawing for this... Am I missing something ?

If you start at 9+ there are 21 stations this includes 0 - and then the radius for the bow....

I luckily printed of Reefie's mold drawings he shows 21 stations...

Any help appreciated as mold materials arriving Monday. Let the fun start !!!

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:01 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Any feed back from my posting on Sunday ?

Morning All

Thanks Jaysen, Dan

Jacques / Jeff / Guys

Reefie seems to have removed himself from the data base !

Am I reading this correct ? On the Lines And Camber drawing, Profile it seems to show a station to the right of 0 making 0 - !!!

But there is not a station drawing for this... Am I missing something ?

If you start at 9+ there are 21 stations this includes 0 - and then the radius for the bow....

I luckily printed of Reefie's mold drawings he shows 21 stations...

Any help appreciated as mold materials arriving Monday. Let the fun start !!!

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:57 am
by Jaysen
les2021 wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:01 am Reefie seems to have removed himself from the data base !
He is still in the system. As noted, you should be able to find him using the user search feature in the PM “To” field.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:22 am
by les2021
Day 1

At last I got underway today.

Strong back built, squared, levelled, braced and secured.

Cut and fixed my first station all went well....

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:24 am
by les2021
1F0E070A-CDCC-4F8D-A189-B7D4483BB23D.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:48 am
by les2021
Hi Jeff

Is Jacques away on holiday ?

I have sent a post twice asking for a little bit of clarification with no response ?

Many Thanks

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:24 am
by fallguy1000
I can look later today as well.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:40 am
by fallguy1000
0- may refer to the bow mould.

Do you have this file?

LB26_M_LS.PDF

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:54 am
by Jeff
Les, he has likely been away for our Fourth of July long weekend. Re-post your question and I will get a note to him. Jeff

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:52 am
by jacquesmm
les2021 wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:48 am Hi Jeff

Is Jacques away on holiday ?

I have sent a post twice asking for a little bit of clarification with no response ?

Many Thanks

Les
I did not see that question, sorry. You must be looking at the lines drawing .

See the notes: you have 10 standard stations marked with numbers like 1,2, 3 etc. That is enough to build a good jig for a stiff core material like strip plank or plywood core.
Then, you have intermediate stations marked 1+, 2+ etc. They go in between the standard stations, spaced half. That is for those who want to build a very tightly spaced jig for foam sandwich. Forward of 0, the profile drawing shows an extra small station. You do not need that one on the jig. It would be complicated to plank the foam around that one. Do not use it: your jig stops at station 0.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:18 am
by jacquesmm
Les, your first mold looks good. You are on the right track, keep posting.

I do not always reply right away. I travel: boating and camping and I sometimes are in areas with no internet. I"ll go away again next week. I will be out of the country with limited internet but will follow this thread each time I can get online.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:09 am
by les2021
Thanks Jacques

All makes sense.

Yes Dan I have that drawing just seemed a little confusing but Jacques has cleared it up.

Molds going well will post photos in few days time permitting.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:04 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Well I did not get the best of starts as I put my back our and spent 6 days doing nothing ( the joys of getting old )

Anyway back at it.... managed to get the aft stations in and the transom mold. Will be back in the workshop tomorrow and start working towards the bow.

Cheers

Les
A3981B9F-5971-4D0D-8BBC-1A3B8B233454.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:21 pm
by fallguy1000
Sure looks good from here.

Some things to watch for...

Make sure they are all nice n true to each other with say a 6-8' straightedge. Any errors end up as fairing compound.

Also, real smart to be on the lookout for hook on the centerline. Best to put a line up off the bottom about a 2x4 each end from the flat section and make sure no gaps, but a long straightedge would probably also show any.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:25 pm
by TomW1
Looks real good! What I don't see is the notches for the stingers. You will need to cut these at some point. Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:42 am
by les2021
Evening Guys

Had a good day in the workshop, molds complete, checked and all lines through nicely.
Corecell arrived today.
Start planking over the next few days.

Cheers

Les
53D668FD-C05A-4746-9DDC-63530C192049.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:29 pm
by fallguy1000
Looks good from here.

The only thing that I can offer is on my Skoota build, the station next to the bow mold had to be beveled, otherwise there was a hump in the hull. No other LB26 builders have commented on it, so perhaps a non-issue.

You can check with a nice 3/4" square pine batten to see if things lay down well. A hump is a ton of fairing work.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:31 pm
by fallguy1000
Is it just me or does that boat even look good upside down?

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:36 pm
by jacquesmm
It looks great, we'll keep watching.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:36 am
by les2021
Morning

Thanks Dan / Jacques

It really is starting to look good.

Cheers Dan. I bevelled the last 4 stations down to the bow just in case. When I bend a timber round now it sits perfect.
When you keep adding stations you think no that can't be right and then all of a sudden it comes together.

Just steaming the sheer clamp at the moment, once that is fitted then on we go.

Will start planking today.

Will post pic's if it goes well !!!!!!!

Cheers

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:14 am
by jacquesmm
A little bit of fairing is expected. It is almost impossible to align the molds perfectly. The foam panels will help with the fairing.
For the sheer clamp, you can laminate several thin layers instead of steaming.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:14 am
by les2021
Cheers Jacques

As mentioned before this is my first build so please drop in and if you see any issues please let me know.

So far though the info and drawings are great. ( sure I will need advice though as I progress )

Started the planking and all good so far, i am sure there will be fairing but all part of the game..... Have to say really enjoying the build ( not sure Nicki is though !!! )

Thanks

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:01 pm
by fallguy1000
Fairing is a lot if work, but those humps forward are a fairing nightmare as is any hump. Tons of fill results in many days extra as well.

I learned the best way to fair is to walk the boat with the tool you intend to use as the fairing board and write on the boat in sharpie the fill dimension estimate. This helped me loads on hull 2. Someday hull 1 will need to be airfiled and redone, but I will pay someone then because I can't really tolerate the torture board now.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:41 am
by les2021
Hi Boat People

Question !!! What is the best tool for shaving / sanding high density foam. The ordinary Corecell is not a problem but the high density is a bugger...

Will post a few planking photos later.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:43 am
by les2021
Guys

A photo of my planking.
29AD433F-A108-436F-9207-8AFC9BFF556D.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:08 am
by fallguy1000
My favorite means to deal with foam.

Festool RTS 400

The festool sander is used in my shop almost everyday.

Today, I will sand off some cabosil from overbored holes in 3/4" plywood windshield frame cleats and to sand some cabosil joints a wee bit. I spent well over a grand on papers.

Epoxy secondary bonds require mechanical key. The best key is a wire brush per my reading, but very impractical to wire brush around foam. Just use 40-60 grit papers and the Festool.

I also have a handhold yellow piece of foam that can ise the same papers that gets a lot of use.

And for cruder grinding projects, another tool that gets a lot of use is a handheld carbide file. It is really handy for filing inside holes or places the Festool or papers won't reach.

For fairing, I also use the inside of a pvc pipe with velcro glued in if I need to form a radius. To make this tool, you hotglue a piece of pvc to a nice straight board and rip a piece of pvc down. I can try to find the size of the pvc; it is a little bigger than most of the radius forming, but it also uses the Festool papers.

Some creativity is useful, but plan to spend a bit of money and get the festool.

I purchased a very fancy 8" rotary air sander and papers and it all cost about a grand. Pretty much usesless because my air system would need an extensive dryer. The thing makes ice in about a minute of use. So, after longboarding, I even used the Festool on the sides of the boat for sanding the primer prior to paint. We used 220 grit. The papers do not stand up to epoxy well and you get about 6-10 square feet before the paper stops producing dust. For 2 part polyurethane, sanding before a final coat is even worse. The papers only get about two square feet. That stuff is really, really hard on papers. But that is a cost of two part catalyzing paintwork.

This is the handfile. I bought two because I can never find the thing. It gets set down and ends up under stuff often because of the flat shape.

https://www.amazon.com/Kutzall-Original ... B014LPIDHQ

I also use a piece of 3/4" black pipe and I made an inside corner forming tool and made a couple youtubes on some of the ways we deal with corners. Boat corners are rarely square or sharp edges; especially where people are moving.

Another tool I use is an electric planer for making rebates for seams. The video is not public because I am technically doing it wrong, but my method works. A tape relief is common in foam boat building because you don't have to fair so doggone much to make perfect flats.

Anyhow, here is one video.

https://youtu.be/o74PwqLduus

And another one.

https://youtu.be/305KInGFb4E


...you may have more questions, feel free to ask

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:10 am
by fallguy1000
For just cutting, I use a sharp utility knife, but it has to have a perfect edge. For a foam build, get about 100 blades.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:55 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

Cheers Dan works a treat.

Made some progress on the planking, made a few errors but learnt from them. Starting to look good.

Cheers

Les
93D0BC9C-1F9E-48B0-BEC6-47FDDE48B4EE.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:26 am
by fallguy1000
Looks great. How are those bonded?

Looks like the bow os gonna need some pre-mudding.

Make sure to mask with the cabosil. Nasty bad for the lungs.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:21 pm
by les2021
Evening Dan

I am going down the Aussie route ( Reefie ) V joint and then piped with resin mix. It seems this method is tried and tested so will give it a go....

I have been in contact with a really helpful guy at Gurit and he says it works !!!

Will hopefully finish the planking tomorrow. Will then check and aline any dodge areas before bonding.

The next process is laminating ..... this one I am not sure of.... My plan of attack is to give the hull one coat to strengthen the foam let it cure, sand a prepare and then wet on wet the remaining coats. this may require working until it is finished ( moon light and on )

The question is am I mad ???

Will post more photos soon.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:23 pm
by les2021
Evening Dan

I am going down the Aussie route ( Reefie ) V joint and then piped with resin mix. It seems this method is tried and tested so will give it a go....

I have been in contact with a really helpful guy at Gurit and he says it works !!!

Will hopefully finish the planking tomorrow. Will then check and aline any dodge areas before bonding.

The next process is laminating ..... this one I am not sure of.... My plan of attack is to give the hull one coat to strengthen the foam let it cure, sand a prepare and then wet on wet the remaining coats. this may require working until it is finished ( moon light and on )

The question is am I mad ???

Will post more photos soon.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:10 pm
by jacquesmm
Good plan.

It is important to make certain that no gaps exist in the core. Cutting a small groove and filling works well. I also tried to push a resin slurry through but it results in drips inside that are difficult to grind down.
Use the method you describe.

For the fiberglass, what you describe is standard procedure. We often call it a skin coat.
If you apply too many layers at a time, the exotherm can produce wiggles in the core. With a single skin coat, you stiffen the core and once that skin is cured, you can follow with multiple layers. It's not crazy, it is the proper way to do it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:39 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

For some reason I can not find what the correct mix is for adding Silica and Microballons for making my bonding mix. I have been on the Gurit website, no luck. I am using Ampreg 31 with a slow hardener. Anybody got any advice.

A couple of questions for Jacques.

I am planning to fit a 125mm tube bow thruster, before I order do you have any advice or points you would like to add, position / size / depth etc

I am also planning to build the swim deck in core material with a slightly raised side to take 9mm marine deck.
How do the side rails attach to the side of the hull ?
What would the platform thickness need to be ?
M80 or M200

My thoughts would be to laminate 3 layers of the 15mm M80 and then laminate 2 layers of M200 to edge the platform and run down the side of the hull as the rails, these I would bond and tab to the hull ???

Finished the planking today.... will hopefully start bonding tomorrow.

The lines on this boat are really great.

Cheers

Les
C13A90E5-0F49-4E99-AF0A-B76827EF230B.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:54 am
by jacquesmm
For the bow thruster: this is a small boat for a thruster, there is limited space.
First find a small thruster, Vetus has one. Then, starting from the bow, go to the required width below the waterline, at last 10" (25 cm). You will see that it puts it far aft. It is probably not worth the troubles.

For the swim platform: specs like deck or 50% more but you need lots of inserts for fasteners. I would build the whole thing from HD foam, that should be your 200 density.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:06 am
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:39 am Afternoon Guys

For some reason I can not find what the correct mix is for adding Silica and Microballons for making my bonding mix. I have been on the Gurit website, no luck. I am using Ampreg 31 with a slow hardener. Anybody got any advice.

A couple of questions for Jacques.

I am planning to fit a 125mm tube bow thruster, before I order do you have any advice or points you would like to add, position / size / depth etc

I am also planning to build the swim deck in core material with a slightly raised side to take 9mm marine deck.
How do the side rails attach to the side of the hull ?
What would the platform thickness need to be ?
M80 or M200

My thoughts would be to laminate 3 layers of the 15mm M80 and then laminate 2 layers of M200 to edge the platform and run down the side of the hull as the rails, these I would bond and tab to the hull ???

Finished the planking today.... will hopefully start bonding tomorrow.

The lines on this boat are really great.

Cheers

LesC13A90E5-0F49-4E99-AF0A-B76827EF230B.jpeg
I do not use a balloons in bonding mixes. For three reasons.

1. Pretty sure they weigh more.
2. They sag more.
3. Sanding bonds should be avoided, and balloons are used to make sanding easier. Some sanding of bonds is needed, but work should be clean.
4. I believe, wothout solid evidence, the bond is weaker.

I use the following...from memory.

Fairing mix.

543g mixed resin
25g cabosil
75g balloons
(You will need to adjust for your epoxy and you can also tweak it to 20 cab and 80 balloons for easier sanding. So, use this ratio for a smaller test batch)

Bonding/fillets (sags less)

Can't find my sheet right now.

..by volume.

1 part epoxy mixed resins
2.2 parts cabosil

Mix all in a bucket with a good sized stick. Fingers get real sore after awhile.. transfer well mixed resins to a board and trowel them thin to avoid exotherm and early kicking off. I also like to mix on the board. I use a two trowel system and for bonding seams would use a 3" and 4" wide trowel.

Get a 5 gallon bucket and put a couple inches of acetone in the bottom and throw tools in it. If they are not solvent proof handles; they'll dissolve.

If I find my cab mix by weight, will update.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:10 am
by les2021
Thanks Jacques ? Dan

Jacques can explain the swim deck in a bit more detail ( side rail fixing etc as my proposal ) high density is not a problem.

It's mainly fixing it to the hull ( side rails ) and depth of foam. I am planning on 3 support frames under.

When you say lots of inserts for fasteners ???

Many thanks

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:35 am
by jacquesmm
Wherever you bolt something, you need HD foam instead of the regular hull foam.
I think that your transom is entirely made from HD foam. Is that correct?
In that case, there is nothing to worry about from the point of view of fasteners.

For the swim platform itself, I do not show any details because I expect most builders to install and aftermarket platform.
If you make it your self, my 3D model uses a rail all around. That flange (rail) will be single skin. For the flat part, I would use the same material than the deck, same core, same glass . To support it, if you make them from foam sandwich, I would use 3 or 4 brackets, single skin thick glass, let's say 10 mm thick or cored with HD foam or cored with an L shaped Al angle.
I would prefer the brackets to be metallic.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:21 pm
by fallguy1000
You want the swim platform to be able to break off.

Sounds off, but you don't want another boater or yourself crashing into the swim platform and punching thru the hull. For backing the LB26 with a swim platform, the best thing I have seen is the use of a small cheap rib inflatable which is secured to the slip or dock and the swim platform actually hits the side of the inflatable and you avoid damage. Or four old tires, etc.

But the rib works if you are transient.

For hard points, like a cleat mount, you can preplan with coosa or you can decore and insert just cabosil n resin.

The cabosil method works if one side is laminated and you can decore, but maintain the laminate.

I have used both. I do not trust corecell 12# for acrew holding, but do trust coosa 20#. Designers may spec HD core, but it varies from 12-26#. For my Skoota, Ii serted 12# core for beam socket load support and hope now that it is not too light! At the time I did the work, I don't recall if I asked for a clarification or not.

When decoring and filling with thixo, use caution to avoid fire. The thickened resins can get very hot and also crack at 1/2". The best way to do them is in steps. Apply 1/4" first, allow it to go to gel, then return 60 minutes later and apply it to flush. Oftentimes, that much infill will shrink and a 3rd coat 8 hours later may be needed.

Anyhow, I have tons of tips for you. I answer about 4 times a day. At lunch, morning coffee, after dinner, bedtime.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:24 pm
by fallguy1000
Here is a hardtop with coosa 20# mounts for horn/hailer/flir/radar/lights

Make sure to photo document the locations if they will vanish with paint. I have closeups, won't bother you. See they are labelled a,b,c....
6FF5B569-7AE1-430D-9FBC-C405F4121765.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:11 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Well it is hard work here at the moment, it is now the hottest on record in Greece 46.8 degrees..... So spending 5 hours piping resin in to v joints is good for loosing weight and bad for drinking beer !!!

But she is now bonded and ready for fairing before fibreglassing. will give it a go tomorrow depending on heat....

So is the latest snap shot, she really is beginning to take those lovely lines.

Cheers

Les
D6E4087E-ADB1-409D-99BC-291FF62C0655.jpeg
0EFC91E4-ECA4-45A2-B0B2-EA877A52DF84.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:31 am
by fallguy1000
Hope you have some good equipment and the glue work was pretty cleanly done.

Maybe a little balloons in there would have been better; not sure.

Good luck sanding. It can be rough.

Remember to use the bulldozer method. Work from worst to least, otherwise, you'll cut too much foam.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:49 am
by les2021
Thanks Dan

Due to my lousy back I splashed out on an electric Flexisander it is brilliant. I have already fair a section and it works really good.

If you watch the olympics later you will see me in the final of the Resin pipping contest..... The bonding has gone well but very hot and boring....

This heat wave is due to last another week !!!

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:07 am
by fallguy1000
Wise move. The torture board might give me an early death. Mris, injections, pt, surgeon says, your back is not good, but until you start having extremity numbness, I won't be operating on it because none of the issues are super bad. Just that you have so many small issues they are compounding. So I am on a drugs for pain regimen. 3-4 days with only a couple doses. Can't imagine working in a boatyard ft.

Just so you know, I really hate abranet....if that's what they sold you. It loses edge way too fast.

I recommend finding a regular hook n loop paper like festoool. I got a lot more sanding from them. Epoxy and two part paints are so hard.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:34 am
by les2021
Cheers Dan

I fly back to the UK on Saturday to have two procedures on my back. I am having 4 radio frequency injections ( where they try and kill the nerve endings ) and then a hole drilled in my spine on one of the joints to release some fluid build up around the arthritis in the joint. All good fun....
I have been advise not to have an operation until it is the last resort.

The joys of working in construction for 37 years and getting old !!!!

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:09 pm
by Fuzz
I am loving watching this build! The lines are marvellous.
I hate to hear about the back issues. At this point in life I am well aware how they can effect all you do. My back is bad enough it is making me gun shy to even start any major project. :cry:

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:21 am
by les2021
Thanks Fuzz

This boat really is a good looking vessel and I am really enjoying the project. Fibreglass arrives next week so on to the next phase.

The back as you mention is a real pain in the a....., but strap on the back brace, pop a beer and crash on.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:46 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Jacques can you give your input please.

Got out of the hospital yesterday now bored ridge.... So thought I would ask some question !!!

Swim platform. What would be the ideal height above the DWL, I am planning a solid platform so this may have an impact.
When fitting does it run parallel to the DWL.

Flying back to Crete on Sunday, fibreglass and resin has been delivered, cant wait to get back at it.

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:12 am
by jacquesmm
Parallel to the DWL and while the height is to your preference, not too close, about 20 cm above,

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:55 am
by les2021
Thanks Jacques

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:21 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

Question for Jacques

1. Is it possible to move Frame D 300mm to the aft to make the cabin slightly larger ? Or is this structurally positioned.

2. Do I need to put any high density inserts in the hull for pipe exits, air intake, exhaust etc.

Anyway its good to back in the workshop. Traveling back to the UK last week was nothing but aggro, tests and form after, form....

Will post some pic's soon, starboard side nearly completed just a little more fairing before laminating.

Cheers

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:43 pm
by jacquesmm
les2021 wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:21 am Afternoon Guys

Question for Jacques

1. Is it possible to move Frame D 300mm to the aft to make the cabin slightly larger ? Or is this structurally positioned.
I'll reply before Monday. I just came back from a trip.

2. Do I need to put any high density inserts in the hull for pipe exits, air intake, exhaust etc.
Yes, always. I will comment later.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:09 pm
by fallguy1000
Just so you know Les, you can always insert thickened resins in place of low density core, if needed.

It is never as nice and does not compensate for an entire section.

The hull to deck joint can also be made with hd and even the hull bottom to hull side (hull side, first portion can be made with hd). This is to take load impacts from bottom when wave jumping which you probably will largely avoid.

I tried to plan all my hardware. Unfortunately, I failed to account for tow hooks on the bow or transom. Got lucky on the transom.

Almost impossible to account for everything for the designer. And I just want to point that out for your benefit Les. Something like hawse pipe is rarely spec'd.

On my build, recently, I painted the helm riser. No idea why, but all my cabosil fills grew when the boat got heated to above 100F. Be warned.

Best of luck. And I waited for JM to respond.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:31 pm
by jacquesmm
1. Move frame D : The part below the sole (= floor frame) must stay but you can move the upper frame. It is tricky, you will have a weird step going down in the cabin.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:39 pm
by jacquesmm
2. Yes, inserts or as Fallguy writes, a transition to a thick single skin.
Look at this page:
https://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/art ... h/jig.html
Image

I wrote that article years ago, the pictures is from an old Airex manual. I show the transition for a keel but you can use the same principle.
It's single skin or HD foam or a filler made from resin and milled fibers.

I had a dry exhaust made that way and it never burned but for the exhaust, I prefer a fiber insert.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:50 pm
by fallguy1000
Another thing to be careful of with thickened resins is post cure change.

Solids change at different rates under heat.

Les-I put each hull of my boat in a shipping container and cooked it for 8 hours to get 150F average for two hours and cool down two hours.

You don't have toi get as fancy, but you can heat the boat up to 110F for a day prior to fairing, but after any thickened inserts are done to avoid experiencing print through and post fairing post paint changes.

Another trick that can be used in foam is you can purposely step the inserts proud of the hull. I did not, but this is valuable for finding them later if you expect they can get lost. Glass must be considered if so and transistion is not a step, of course, but a ramp. Preglassing may also be needed.

The post cure strengthens most epoxies.

I did not post cure my helm riser and it hit 110 in the tent last week and some filled screw holes expanded permanently in the finish. Oh well. But just letting you know it can happen. Using some milled fiber in holes may help the issue; not sure..

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:03 am
by les2021
Hi Dan / Jacques

Not sure I put the question over very well.

I have used Corecell M200 on the full length of the keel and chine, 300mm so I think I am ok here. I have also constructed the transom in M200, once again I think that will be fine for exhaust etc.
It is really things like air intake location, head tank pump out point. cooling water intake.

Dan your method is fibres and resin which sounds fine, can I use a straight M200 inserts ?

Jacques regarding moving frame D, I will draw it up and see if is worth the move. Cheers for having a look though.

Final day of fairing tomorrow.... and yes I will be pleased !!! Hope to get the skin coat of glass on this weekend.

Once again thanks for the input Dan. ( by the way my workshop is over a 100 degrees every day at the moment , it's killing me) Keep the beer coming....

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:29 am
by fallguy1000
For things like the pumpout and water fill and the $700 worth of required electrical connections, I did nothing. The electrical had their own gaskets and I simply cut holes into regulat core.

For deck fills, if you bed them in butyl, they should be fine over regular core as long as you don't go crazy on torque.

The m200 is fine. I prefer aquaplas for screw holding.

I planned all cleat locations on the Skoota, but botched on the bow eye. The cleats have hardfills and all will have backers. I read somewhere each cleat should be backed to support a minimum of half the boat, and I did some calcs and decided on 24 inch square backing minimums which takes my 10,000 pound design to 416 pounds per inch (too high, but what I am using). I have plywood decks in place for two of them, hindsight would have been M200 as one locker filled with water last year and the ply swelled post finish and cause some issues and broke the laminate in one spot. That locker simply did not have a drain installed and we got hammered with rains last August.

Here is the electrical and water. The stuff is on the foam just above a plywood core which we did because the ply gets narrow at the beam..

There is extra glass here and I got lucky because only on raw core, but because on extra glass (this is a chine), nothing is needed. The vent hole is bedded on a big black rubber washer.

If you end up over 4-5# core, and you are worried; decore 2-3x the bolt sizes and refill with milled fiber and epoxy and cabosil and bed in butyl. Limit is about 3/4" hole or it'll heat up and crack on you.

You can always, as a matter of last resort, build an M200 block and make it proud of the hull. I am doing this option for a camera mounting base on the cabin roof. Not done yet.
676E7F37-4DFD-4173-B874-D474656CBFBB.jpeg
Rubrails are simply screwed onto raw core every 6". I am nervous about them failing and I bolted them on where I could access behind and bedded/sealed in 4000//4200/5200.

Those hull windows, only bedded in butyl. I did not even decore the raw edge. If I see any issues, I will take them out and chop out the edges and fill with thixo. Top windows are bedded with sase neoprene foam, no core modification, in corecell either pvc or m80. Under the middle window up/escape hatch, there is a diesel heating system fill and vent, also raw core, bedded in butyl, just screws in core where there was extra glass. No access behind it to do much..
59EEA6D2-4779-4F55-AFEE-9894A4D8D705.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:43 pm
by les2021
Cheers Dan

I feel happy now, that all makes sense. Boat building is new to me but asking questions is always the right way. No doubt there will be a lot more.

The hull is going well, I am taking the approach the better I can get the foam core the easier the glassing will be and the fairing. The lines are looking good.

All the best .

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:54 am
by les2021
Afternoon All

I think I have finished fairing the hull prior to laminating. I will attach some photos, if anyone has any comments please let me know.
I have tried to get the hull as near as perfect as I can so as to save masses of after laminating fairing. There are a couple of areas I will just fill a little but basically I think I am there..... Unless someone tells me different !!!! Also will re mark the DWL.
1EA913A5-03E7-4703-BA54-79835E60229C.jpeg
Fibreglass ready to go.....

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:53 am
by fallguy1000
Looks ready, but make sire you have no sharp edges.

After you glass, you want the transom to exit cleanly with a sharp edge and I sort of believe in a sharp bottom chine edge as well.

Make sure you are pretty roughly sanded. Most studies are for 40-60 grit, any higher and you risk delamination. If you went to say 120, go over it again with 40-60.

Also, make sure the surface is super clean, sanding dirt also is a terrible bond surface.

Forgive me if this is all no brainer advice.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:06 am
by les2021
Cheers Dan

All advice is welcome.

In the notes it says about a 1\2 inch radius on the transom but does not mention the chine !!! ( i think ) so do i have to give the chine a radius as well ?

I also gave another look to the laminating schedule. Am I right by saying the following ?

Keel 2 layers of 15cm tape on the outside. 1 directly on top of the other ?

Chine 1 layer of 15cm tape on the outside

Bow !!! the bow has a 40cm radius at the sheer.... how do i give this 2 layers of tape ? horizontal ?

Family arriving from the UK on Thursday so I've been told the boat workshop is out of bounds.....Could be trouble ahead...

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:07 am
by fallguy1000
NEVER lay tapes on top of each other. This creates hard points. In ALL boat work, strength and weakness changes must be gradual. This also helps for fairing. Two four inch tapes are staggered at least 1:2" off each other.

A chine that gets a tape must have a radius, then you build the sharp edge back with compounds. Same for transom. You will get a performance improvement making it so water exits cleanly and without drag. On my boat, the chines were brought back to mostly sharp for the last 15 feet. Further for'd, it won't matter. I use milled fiber on edge build back first pass because I want body in the fill in case I hit something someday. The edge build also protects the core from delamination in a strike of say a floating log. Consider a hammer shot to a taped edge versus a hammer shot to a taped edge reinforced and squared back with milled fibers... you can test it as well to get a feel for what happens...take a piece of tape and laminate it on a core scrap...wait two days and hit with a hammer...reinforcing the edges back to square is a benefit you'll quickly see

The tapes won't lay on sharp edges. Just take the dry tape over to your boat and see if it will lay down dry. If it won't stay down dry, it won't do real well wetted. You'll see the tape edges balloon or puff just off the corners.

Build notes by all designers may miss a fine point here or there. Fiberglass does not lay over sharp edges; the designer is not obligated to tell you these things; the LB26 is not an amateur boat build, so things like not stacking tapes or radiusing corners is expected knowledge. Be kind here. I got lucky I got some really good advice along the way.

If you are taping two different sized tapes, do not fall victim to the idea that shingling is best or that laying the big tape last is wise. It is not. In fiberglass work, two tapes are done for the thickness. Laying the big tape last will result in the potential for sanding it off on the high spot and air entrainment is certain. Bigger tapes are always first by pros. Again, dry check it. You'll quickly see how a big tape last will result in air at the intersection.

I am glad to help you navigate and answer questions. I can also give you my contact info if you like. I am not sure about any of the inboard stuff, though.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:35 am
by fallguy1000
Also, if you reinforce the chines with a tape before laminating the whole hull, you will want to sand and prefill the new tape edges with some thixo to avoid air pockets. The bottom of a boat is super critical. A dime sized void in a laminate gets literally tons of hudraulic pressure and will erode and delaminate. More and faster in a speed boat.

The step in a 1708 tape is 0.050" high. This is too much for the glass to lay down. Take a four inch trowel and ramp the step in four inches. Otherwise, you get air pockets and they could run for several inches.

If you get any air pockets in your hull or tapes layups, they must he ground out and repaired or epoxy injected. To inject, get snub nosed needles 0.065" or 1mm and drill two holes; one is a vent. If they are on the side, put a masking tape and keep the holes high. For repairs, grind out and fill with pb epoxy.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:01 am
by les2021
As always cheers Dan.

Jacques can you comment please. I am finding the drawings fine, it is just a few small details which I need to learn.

Dan's posts are of great help, as the designer would you like input.

This is my first boat build but to be honest I am not finding it very hard SO far. But there are points which I am definitely not accustom to
" fibreglassing " for one. The tutorials are general and I understand the basics but they are not specific to individual boats. The LB 26 has a 40cm radius on the bow ( not easy with a 15cm tape ) So do I cut a fabric triangle 60cm - 10cm and then add on top a triangle 50cm-5cm so the whole bow is then covered and should one be CB1708 and one CM1808 ??? As Dan then kindly points out to me this will need fairing before sheet material is laid. This point I would not have picked up from the notes etc ( or did I miss them )

With regard the keel, is correct to say I am laying 15cm the full length and then 5cm on top then fairing as before, this giving a 5cm lap each side.

Like wise I was pretty sure the chine would need a radius but thought I would ask the question just incase, the notes only mention the transom.

But once again I now know every sharp edge needs a radius and can be reformed sharp later ( cheers Dan )

As mentioned before I am loving this boat build, 103 hours in and learning every hour. And the forum really helps.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:24 am
by jacquesmm
The radius situation is simple: you have to end up with a sharp radius at the transom and chine but you can't bend the specified fiberglass over a radius smaller than 1/2" (12 mm) without creating an air bubble..
You will round all those edges to 12 mm before glassing, glass over it with a 12 mm radius and finish the edge later.
After the fiberglassing, you will build a sharp corner with a putty made from resin and milled fibers.

It does not matter if your starting radius is 10 or 12 mm or even 15. It does not matter if the putty is made from milled fibers or silica, as long as it is hard.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:39 am
by les2021
Hi Jacques

It was not meant as a criticism of the building notes or tutorial it was just a comment from someone who is not up on fibreglass laminating.

Sorry if it came across that way.

Could you please comment on the taping of the bow etc as in my last post as I am not sure the procedure for taping something with a 40cm radius. Is my approach listed in my last post the right way to proceed.

Many Thanks

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:57 am
by fallguy1000
You do not need to worry about the 40cm bow so much. Just reinforce the bow as specified. If spec calls for reinforcing chines with 10 cm tapes, then do so and the glass will do the rest. The thing about the bows is whether you install a tow eye. Then you must use HD foam. But the regular layup will address the flare of the bow.

Sometimes, a question such as this can be confusing because it is rather obvious and to be kind to JM; he may not understand. As a guy who has struggled with drawings and details, I understand your question. The foams in the bow flare are bonded with epoxy and only need the regular layup; no wider tapes are needed. If you wanted to cut a custom tape for the section, you could, but then you'd end up with a hump at the intersection of your custom tape and the regular chine tapes specified for the bow. Make sense?

A new builder may become confused, but keep in mind the chine reinforcements are done because of stress concentrations. A change in direction of hull is one such. And at the bow, the most severe is right on the point of the boat at the centerline.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:10 pm
by jacquesmm
There was nothing wrong with your question, maybe something was lost in the translation.

For the bow, as Fallguys says, there is nothing special except that you will have the overlaps from the two sides. This is fine, you need more layers there. The bow has to be strong in case you hit a dock during a maneuver.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:57 pm
by OneWayTraffic
When I drilled a hole for my bow eye it was over 20mm thick, not including the backing plate. Definitely strong. 3mm glass, 6mm ply, 12mm fillet, 3mm glass. That was on the C17. All those overlaps matter.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:22 am
by BarraMan
OneWayTraffic wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:57 pm When I drilled a hole for my bow eye it was over 20mm thick, not including the backing plate. Definitely strong. 3mm glass, 6mm ply, 12mm fillet, 3mm glass. That was on the C17. All those overlaps matter.
Indeed! On my boat, with all the overlaps, there are 27 layers of 12 oz glass tape or cloth where I placed my bow eye.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:54 am
by fallguy1000
A good point for Les here as well. If you are a bit uncertain about the layup; far easier to add some to the inside as nearly no fairing reqd.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:19 am
by les2021
Afternoon All

Once again thanks for all the feedback.

Jacques / Dan It could be the way I ask the questions and yes Jacques it could be lost in translation

The reason for asking all these questions is.... until I am 100 percent sure that I am going the right way I will not start the laminating. I have just spent 7,000 euros on resin, fibreglass tools etc, I can not afford to get it wrong !!!!

The reason for pushing the question on bow taping was that we are told to follow the laminating schedule, It says 2 layers of 15cm tape to the bow. Jacques has now pointed out that it is not necessary, overlapping the sheet material is fine. So I will now take the sheet material 20cm past the centre line on the port side and likewise on the starboard side, this will give 2 skins on the bow.
Just to clarify I have decided against fitting a towing hook.

The chine is not a problem 15cm tape.

With regard the keel this one I am still not quite there. Can someone just give me sizes of tape ? As mentioned before if i run a 15cm tape down the centre line no problem but the second layer giving a 5cm step each side only leaves a 5cm strip down the middle ( this does not seem right to me ) The other option is to run 2 x 15cm tapes down each side with a 2.5cm overlap on the centre line then run a 15cm down the line ?

Sorry if I am being stubborn on this one I just want to get it right.

I fully understand and respect the strengthening of certain parts of the hull and to me it is not a problem.

Dan the best comment of the day, " put extra layers on the inside to save fairing "

Please keep giving me feed back even if I am a pain in the arse.....

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:27 am
by jacquesmm
les2021 wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:19 am . . . we are told to follow the laminating schedule, It says 2 layers of 15cm tape to the bow. Jacques has now pointed out that it is not necessary, overlapping the sheet material is fine.
The lamination schedule is correct but if you skip the tape, the overlaps are sufficient.
It is just easier to start with the tape and cover with the wide fabric later.
Sometimes, too many questions create confusion.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:38 am
by fallguy1000
15cm tape is a 6" tape
offset the first tape 2.5 cm or 1 inch off center
Offset the second tape 2.5 cm or one inch offcenter the other way
The overlap is 15-2.5 or 12.5cm or 5 inches, not 5cm
(Bad math by me!). Move each tape half inch off center!!

Not sure why you are getting 5cm, perhaps you were going to stagger them too far apart

The minumum typical overlay in most glasswork is 2" or 5cm, but that is not a standard. A stagger of a half to one inch is fine...

For a doubled four inch tape, which is 10cm, you'd do the same and end up with a 3" overlap.

The two inch rule is the MINIMUM, not the always!

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:42 am
by fallguy1000
JM did not say to not do the bow tapes. They are in the spec. He said the overlaps are enough (implies with the specified tapes). (No need for the 40cm)

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:13 am
by fallguy1000
Also, if you tape first, come back with a bit of compound one pass like I said.

If you were going to put a ruler to the work....

Centerline
First tape is 3.5" one side 2.5" other
Second tape is 3.5" one side, 2.5" other side, overlap is 5".

Main Fabrics overlap each side about 2"...and this avoids hard pointing.

Now and then some cheating may occur. You may decide to go 3" overlapping, etc. avoid ever cheating to a butt join..like cheat to more overlap, not less or not much less...if you are really in a pinch and can only make an inch; that can happen now n then..

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:44 pm
by BarraMan
Les, I wonder if you're overthinking this? Something that most of us have been guilty of at some point! I had a hangup about strakes! :lol:

I'm going to claim that while building my boat I went from total novice to "Master glasser" in a fairly short space of time! Unfortunately there are no photos on my build thread because the site that stored them went belly up. Some day I may upload them again to this sites gallery, which didn't exist when I started.

I don't know what the schedule is for your build, but in terms of taping and glass cloth overlaps etc, here's what I did - worked out just fine, with minimal fairing required.

Image

Image

Image

You can see that I used a marker pen to mark the overlaps.

I also overlapped the glass cloth over the join and 2" past the taping. In my case, on Jacques advice (my boat will do 50 kts), I put 3 x layers of cloth on the bottom - each one overlapped an additional 2 " past the last so no two edges coincided!

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:28 am
by les2021
Morning All

Thanks again Jacques / Dan / BarraMan / OneWayTaffic.

Ok thats and end to that subject. I now feel happy :D It seems to me these are guides and common sense is the way forward.

Thanks for the photos BarraMan, having never attempted laminating before I just felt that I needed to understand more before I got going. Dan has been a great help along the way.

My trade was carpenter and joiner and I had my own construction company for 30+ years. It is the same in construction you learn all the tricks but it takes time and many questions .....

So no more laminating questions !!!!!!

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:17 am
by fallguy1000
One thing about glasswork that is different from carpentry is fiberglass benefits from thickness, not a shingle effect. Always try to put the larger stuff down first. Putting a transom overlap of 2",4",6",8", for example is not so good because the overlaps result in air entraining.

None of your questions have been bad and you don't need to be handcuffed to ask no more. I understand why you wanted more reinforcement of the bow, but it is not needed if the foam butt bonds are good. Do you know the Lloyd's Register and class society rules carry different requirements for those bow bonds? I consider them unnecessary, but those foam bonds in the LR rules are supposed to be different (angled) and your intuition is really not wrong. But the only people who would follow the LR rules are the ones forced to do so because the rules are extremely difficult to implement. Imagine making the flare and using all 45 degree bonds...silly. The gains may be offset by poor work even.

Even in foam work, there are practicalities.

Build on, ask away!

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:26 am
by les2021
Morning all

I'm back at last :D

Due to the pandemic and travel restrictions now being eased we had family visiting from the UK non stop.... BUT now back in the boat shed :D

Once again thanks for helping with all my questions re taping.... Taping went well and now the first layer over the hull is on as well, really happy just one small bubble which I have fixed. 8 hours work... long day.

Dan just read your last reply again regarding transom overlaps, so if I understand correct are you saying this should be cut exactly to the transom
shape ??? Is Jacques OK with that ? so I take it you just overlap the bottom sheets ???

Dan I am just sanding the first coat ready for the next, I am planning to put 2 layers on the transom and bottom on the same day. Is there any tips or advice you can give ????

Jacques regarding the shaft log, does this have to be fibre glass ??? the engine suppliers are only offering this in stainless steel or bronze.

Will post photos soon.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:25 am
by fallguy1000
I have to read up on the transom laminating.

I was providing a generalization is all that biggest
Pieces are first.

Not gonna look now, but if you are uncertain about how to glass the transom, then ask again.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:58 am
by les2021
Jacques

Can you have a look at my last post and give any comments please.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:29 am
by jacquesmm
A metallic shaft log is OK but a fiberglass one is much easier to glass to the hull. Are we talking about the shaft log or the cutlass bearing?

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:49 am
by fallguy1000
The LB26 does not have an engine mounted on the transom, so the layup may be different than an outboard design. If no wraps are stated; don't.

A two layer lamination must not have overlaps in the same places; that is fundamental.

I prefer to dryfit everything first. And I use sharpies to mark all details, including a mark on the hull and glass for lengths, every 3-5 feet. This is to make sure you are not too short or long at the end, or confused. Then I roll the pieces up on cardboard tubes and label them in order of laying. So, say 6 pieces, #1 is first to go on.

A picture of where you are at may help.

For rather thick tapes; it is difficult to laminate edges without air entraining. And for this reason, I really advise to use a 4-6" trowel and precoat the tape edges on the bottom with thickened epoxy, which will prevent the tape thicknesses from affording air entrainment. It takes maybe 10 oz of epoxy give or take, but cheap i surance against future delam or trying to repair air lines along the tapes.

Large boats are very difficult to reach the middle when the edges are wet. It is probably better to work wet on green versus wet on wet. What does this mean? Well, let's say you prep the work on Thursday. Friday morning; you can lay the first layer and Friday evening; you can lay the 2nd layer. I believe you will need some scaffolding to make the job easier to walk. A step ldder is too slow to keep moving.

Also, wirk layer by layer;not side to side.

And make sure you have a good consolidation roller. I really won't work without a bubble buster.

If you have any not flat areas or a keel or skeg, those need to be done separately and before the large areas. I can't recall how the skeg on the LB is done, but it may he done after. Point is if glued on now; laminate first.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:27 am
by les2021
Hi Jacques

The shaft log.

If I go stainless is there any advice on bonding it to the fibre glass.

Thanks

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:12 am
by fallguy1000
I profess zero expertise on bonding steel to glass.

I would think 5200 would be the way to fly. Then the hull need to be solid glass or a core capable for bolting so it can't crush. What are you using for high density core? I am not sure 12# is enough for that......?

I don't know how much to rough up the log for the bond, but perhaps 40 grit sanding won't mess it up. The bolts do much of the work.

Then you have to add the shaft log into bonding system if metal.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:15 am
by fallguy1000
for JM

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:31 am
by jacquesmm
Bonding to SS is difficult. If you sand SS, you remove the protective layer and it may break down.
Use a fiberglass shaft log.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:34 am
by jacquesmm
We are cross posting. I replied in another thread: go for a fiberglass shaft log, you can build it yourself, it's just a fiberglass tube.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:57 am
by les2021
Jacques

I have been studying the stringer and soul details and threads ( the recent one to Faith ) and Dan's input. I think I am reasonably happy but would it be possible to send me the detail section you sent to Faith so I can compare ?
By the way I am going to build the shaft log in fibreglass as you suggest.

Fibreglassing going well, final sanding tomorrow ready for final layer of woven .... and yes it is one hell of a big hull to laminate alone but very satisfying !!!

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:12 am
by jonnymac
I would love to see some pictures! Not too many documented boat builds for this design and its exciting to see one come together 😀

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:46 am
by les2021
Afternoon All

Just finished the last layer on the exterior :D It is a monster to laminate.... Learnt allot along the way though.

Photo's attached.

Next drill some holes in the bottom :? and then the keel, questions will no doubt follow.

Cheers

Les

Sorry about the lousy photo'
198983F2-91B4-47F8-A1D2-01A248415C75.jpeg
065B60D1-307A-40B0-89B1-4F2943DEDE5C.jpeg
2F611D49-DD69-4BBA-B8A5-DE6FC3DD0D8A.jpeg
s

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:54 am
by fallguy1000
Before you flip her over, you will want to sharpen the edges where water releases from the hull. I like to use 50/50 cabosil and milled glass to make it stronger although some say just cabosil.

You make a form with timber and shipping tape and try to find a way to hold it to the hull with clamps, shims, ratchet straps.

It'll be important to build right and this is supposed to be a 2% increase in fuel/speed.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:09 pm
by piperdown
Man, that's a darn big boat!

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:05 am
by les2021
Morning

Piperdown that is a very true statement I know every square inch of it...... !!!!

Dan I think I have a way of holding a timber strip down the chine to fill to, it came to me at 2 o'clock this morning :( Will send photo once I have put it in position. I take the section between the top of the bow radius to the start of the keel needs to be a sharp point as well to reduce drag ?

I am also about to drill the dreaded holes for the shaft and rudder ! I make it 255mm from the DWL for the rudder arm and 1772mm to the shaft exit. Any thoughts on that one anybody ???

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:07 am
by les2021
Jacques

Just checking did you pick up my earlier post regarding the stringer detail you sent via email to Faith ? Is there ay chance you can forward it to me so I can compare with my calc's.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:08 pm
by jacquesmm
Can you send me a link to that stringer discussion? I don't remember what it was about.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:09 am
by les2021
Morning Jacques

This was your reply to Faith.

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Contact: Contact jacquesmm
Re: LB26 Strikers height
Post by jacquesmm » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:34 pm

Image

The drawing is ready.
Fatih, message me with your email and I will send you a high resolution PDF file with some comments.
Jacques Mertens - Designer

Does this help ?

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:12 am
by les2021
Jacques

Can you have a look at my earlier post regarding measurements for the rudder shaft and shaft log exit point.

I make it 225 to the rudder and 1772 to the shaft exit point both from the DWL.

Thanks

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:47 pm
by jacquesmm
It could be this one:
Image

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:52 am
by les2021
Hi Jacques

Not sure if that is the one... I thought is was to do with stringer spacings. Not the engine pair as that is down to your engine, I think it was to do with the second row of stringers.

Laminated the keel yesterday all went well. Spent today cutting it to size and shape.

Cheers

Les
0F6D393D-063B-4447-A56D-1A50B842787E.jpeg
B999B8E6-8394-4FF9-9C39-0BA9BDCCC1A2.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:12 pm
by jonnymac
nice to see a big piece come together!

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:54 am
by les2021
Morning

Just made my first Shaft Log.... went really well. Glued the keel on yesterday and fitted the shaft.

Cheers
F4E64C55-5992-432A-8D85-2838E77537E8.jpeg
5BE80290-C961-4805-B84F-B447A2FB8950.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:03 pm
by Fuzz
That is a damn fine job building the shaft log! How did you do it?

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:21 pm
by jonnymac
Fuzz wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:03 pm That is a damn fine job building the shaft log! How did you do it?
Ain’t that the truth!

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:06 pm
by jacquesmm
Well done. That is exactly what I had in mind.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:56 pm
by fallguy1000
Fuzz wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:03 pm That is a damn fine job building the shaft log! How did you do it?
Right. The classic problem with epoxywork is epoxy shrinks when it cures, so making a round shape results in the part shrinking on the mould.

How did you do it Les?

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:12 am
by les2021
Morning All

Thanks Guys, it's good to know when you have got it right.

I bought a piece of waste pipe from the local building store, and managed to find a piece of galvanised tube which fitted exactly. Next the secret ingredient..... one think we have on this Greek island is a lot of olive oil !!! So I coated the tube and then wrapped it Nicki's plastic wrapping paper oiling as I rolled it, gave it about three rolls then left the last turn without oil. cut about 1m of cloth laid it on the bench and started wetting it out as I rolled.

Next morning went to check it out not knowing what I was going to fined..... and thinking the tube would never come out, so I put the end in the vice clamping both plastic and metal tube gave it a quick twist and it slid out perfect, then just pulled the plastic out.

Think there was an element of luck involved..... :D

I think my problem is never using fibreglass or resin before ( or building a boat ) I lack confidence BUT it is growing and I feel happier using it now. I just need you guys to scream at me if you see something that does not look good in my posts !!!!

Right back to the boat shed, putting the fillet down the keel today ready for glassing. And then Dan rebuild those long long edges....

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:03 am
by fallguy1000
You only need to rebuild where water is exiting, so transom real good and partway back on lower chine. I never used a jig on the chine and did it all with compound...thick compound over 60 grit sanded substrate.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:56 am
by les2021
Evening All

Spent the day sanding and re-building the edges of the chine / transom / bow.

Sand fill.. Sand fill. Sand fill... Hey it's better than work !!

I feel the next week is going to be fairing fairing and then more fairing :?
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Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:41 pm
by fallguy1000
I have some good fairing tips.

Use a straightedge and run it over the hull on a 45 and 'learn' the curves of the hull. Write the fill amounts needed at each location in pencil.

Long board sanding is required. Use 40-60 grit, but stop at glass and don't sand into it; especially if you drop to 40. I only use 40 on bad high spots and 60 on the longboard. Writing fill amounts like 1mm, 0.5mm, or 3mm will really shorten the work and eliminate guessing.

Do not do corners until the flat sections are decent. Fill all major fill or deep fills first. I call it the bulldozer method. Biggest stuff first and eventually, less and less compound.

Always keep compounds on a flat board to slow their kick times.

Use hard concrete trowels. Drywall trowels float over too much and add to sanding. I have a 12 and 14" concrete trowel.

Good luck. Follow the pencil trick. It pays off bigtime.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:50 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Cheers Dan, fairing going ok so far... My alcohol intake is going up though !!!

Question for all. My plan once faired and ready for paint is to prime the hull but finish paint the bottom. once flipped it will sit on a purpose made cradle with some old carpet to protect the finished paint. Any problems with this ???

If this is ok I will need to prepare the platform for the shaft strut ready to take the strut at a later date as I do not want to damage the finished paint.

Jacques a question regarding the rudder

I have been looking into the Vetus rudders as suggested on the drawings. the nearest I can find to the dimensions shown is the RUD4040 this though is larger than the drawing.

Sorry but I have a question on Tabbing.... The keel, the drawing shows what looks like 3 layers of cloth, at the widest point the cloth would be 762mm and then decreasing with each layer. The scantlings only refer to taping 2 layers each side.
Can someone clear this one up for me.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:11 am
by fallguy1000
I primed, then flipped and no bottom paint because bottom paint is best applied at the end. But you can apply finishes now; really up to you and the paint choice. Classic anti-fouling paints slough off, so mucj depends on paint.

The skeg must be glassed, so I think the three
Layers are glass and two tabs. But the schedule is missing or a bit off for the skeg.

I was not able to clearly find the schedule for glassing the skeg, but here is what I would do...

Lay one larger piece of 1708 over the entire skeg and onto the hull 150mm each side.

Lay one piece 100mm narrower over entire skeg, or a 100mm each side onto hull.

Lay a last piece of 1708 or 1808 or even lighter cloth over the skeg to 50mm each side.

Then no tabbing is needed and you have some good resistance to damaging the skeg from impact. The skeg lamination schedule is a little unclear to me. It clearly states two tabs of db120, but personally not a fan of that in the schedule. And I generally like the schedule..jist not here.

It can be hard to laminate a skeg. Make sure the edges are rounded and the fillets habe either cured and are sanded or they have gelled a bit. Gelled fillets are a bit stickier. When you lay the glass, mark the centerlines on the dry glass and a centerline on the skeg with a sharpie to make laying easier. I would wet the pieces on a table and plastic first; then roll them off and on; with the starting spots marked. This will help you get them set wothout too mucj alcohol later required. Never pull on the inside corners on the hull with the roller. Inside corners only get pushed into.

So, you lay the glass one layer at a time using sharpie lines, then fold it over the skeg and wrap it and into the corners and then to the hull. Then you roll the top and sides down to the corner, then you remove air in the corner to the edges and then you push the glass woth one directional rolling to the corner and not pulling out ever. You'll see what happens if you roll outwards; it'll develop air and you'll want oozo. Then do the next one and then a third. You may want to go slow and allow the bottom layer to gel, up to you...it might be passed gel time for all three, so your table plastic may get gooey as this sounds like about 2 hours work to me to do well.

See if JM disagrees or wants more than 3x1708 here.

An alternative would be to wrap the skeg only to the sides and reduce each layer by one inch and allow it to cure and then tab the skeg to the hull. A little easier for amateurs because you don't have all the curves to fight.

i'd go same plan. 3x1708 or 1808 for both the skeg glassing and the tabbing. When you tab, you also lay the first glass up to the top edge of the skeg, then back off say 1/2-1" each time and lay the tapes onto the hull 150,100,50mm to make fairing easier. This is a bit more glass, but not much, but also a two day affair and sanding in between.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:17 am
by jacquesmm
Vetus rudder 4040:
It is very close in height but too wide.
You could have a machine shop cut a slice from the trailing edge (stern side) and that would work.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:19 am
by jacquesmm
Tabbing: do not count the layers on the drawing. I can not show too many layers. Instead, follow the tabbing and overlap instructions.
Start with the tabbing and overlap each layer of wide fabric. That will give you a very thick and sturdy keel.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:51 am
by les2021
Thanks Jacques / Dan

Happy with that.

Jacques I know you think the bow thruster is not needed and I would not disagree but I would be happier having one. So I have been in touch with Vetus and they recommend the 35kgf-12v for this boat. They have forwarded the installation advice. The link is below.
https://www.vetus.com/en/bow-thruster-3 ... 125mm.html.
On page 18 it goes through the recommendations for fitting. The top left fitting looks straight forward. But the next suggestion seems a little more complicated...
Can you give me your opinion regarding there layouts, or maybe you have your own fitting thoughts.
They also give position advice earlier on.

Advice appreciated.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:06 am
by fallguy1000
F974A7FA-2BB6-43E8-BB84-DE0AA133CA95.png

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:08 am
by jacquesmm
Even with the small size of that thruster, it will very tight and the installation will be difficult.
I would start with a pilot hole for the center of the tube and measure it all from there: take dimensions from inside, make a temporary cardboard tube and use that as a template.
I can give you a suggested location for the pilot hole. Give me a day or two and keep in mind that I can not guarantee that you will be able to access all the bolts.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:14 am
by fallguy1000
I am not certain which part is confusing you.

Adding a fairing or not?

Personally, I would not. The LB26 is not a large vessel and the performance of the thruster would not change enough to be notable I'd say. Also, I would use a grid of 316 stainless or fiberglass g10 or 1/8-1/4" laminate and this is more complicated with a fairing.

Now, that said, I would not attach the tube wothout rounding and a tape layer on the outside or it could crack at the tube/hull intersection...and then perhaps delam unless you remove the core and fill with thickened resins before bonding the tube.

My two cents, but it must be noted, have no thruster experience; just good glass knowledge.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:18 am
by fallguy1000
I see JM is going to try to help with locating. I would try to get the thruster a bit further back because the boat is small; access is really key. The thruster will still perform a foot further aft..but pushing it close to bow will drive all sorts of access headaches. Also, when you install, you might be wise to run some longer pigtails for the ground/bond/hot. Wiring close to the unit will be hard.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:06 am
by les2021
Evening Jacques

Have you had time to look at thruster tunnel location yet ?

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:08 pm
by jacquesmm
No, I have to work on the 3D model and can't do that on my tablet.
I'll work on the computer later today.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:23 pm
by jacquesmm
Image

That is the proposed location of the center of a 125 mm diameter tube, 200 mm in front of the 1st frame, 200 mm below the BL (= DWL).

Vetus indicates minimum 135 mm below DWL, you could go a little higher than what I show but those things are not as effective close to the surface.. The lower edge of the tube is a little above where Vetus shows if but there is not much room down there.

Image

That is a view of the tube. In the drawing, it is 1 meter long total. Don't make it shorter than 600 mm, that is the length of the section at the top. The thin red line is at 500 mm.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:45 am
by les2021
Hi Jacques

Thanks for the thruster details.
I am away for my partners birthday in Italy so have no drawings etc.
My engine supplier has sent me an email regarding the gearbox.
Can you have a read and advise please.
Many Thanks

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:17 pm
by jacquesmm
Down angle: certainly, it saves room in the cockpit.
Reduction ratio for the prop I suggest is 2:1 but a 1.5:1 will also work with less pitch like a 19x19.
Make certain that your local prop supplier will allow you to test a prop. I based my calculations on a 3 blade Michigan Wheel.
A 19x19 is common but 19 by 21 is sometimes difficult to find in which case a 1.5:1 gear is a better choice.
That is why I wrote "Check with prop manufacturer". Props and reduction go together.
BTW, almost all engine manufacturers will do a free prop and gear reduction analysis. It will give you a choice of reduction gears and props.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:38 am
by les2021
Jacques

Can you help out on this one !!! My apologise if I should already know these answers.


Hello Les,

Hope you are well.

We need a final approximate displacement.
So is it 2.450 kg all inclusive? (including passengers and how many, fuel etc) OR
Is it 2.450+105kg water+300kg fuel+4 pax@80kg ea (320kg)= 3.175kg

Please let me know. Sorry to insist this is essential. Also I need to rush in placing the order with the proper gearbox due to imminent price changes.

Many thanks

Displacement at DWL 2450kg
PPI ar DWL 130kg/cm
Water and waste water 105 litres
Passengers 2 - 8 ( average 4 I would say )
Fuel max 360 litres

As you can see I need to get this order in quick.... would appreciate a quick response.

Sorry for pushing on this one.

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:43 am
by fallguy1000
Displacement in a boat is to dwl which generally includes specified items, here, water, fuel, engine are specified.

Displacement does not equal vessel weight. It is only a measure of how much water is moved when the boat rests on her designed lines.

If JM does not respond; I'd design based on 4 passengers added.

Or 2450 plus 320 or 2770 low to 3000, high. Then consider the impacts of gearing too high or too low and decide.

It is very easy for amateur builds to gain weight. Things like countertops, windlasses and chain, bowthruster and batteries to support one, etc.

And so, err on the high. You can even use the dealer's 3175 and be pretty safe.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:27 am
by jacquesmm
I must find my spreadsheet but it is probably based on the same load than other boats of that size: 2 persons, tanks half full and some gear. Ground tackle is probably 50 lbs., 150 lbs. for misc., hardware. That is what I usually base my weights on.

Are you having second thoughts about engine HP or top speed?

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:25 am
by les2021
Hi Jacques

No the speed is not important to me. The question is purely to do with gearbox as requested by the supplier, so for his calc's he just needs to know the total weight.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:29 am
by les2021
Jacques

See reply from supplier.


Dear Les,

According to the data and our calculations a fully laden boat at 3000kg is at the maximum weight for 2/1 ratio.
1.5/1 is out of the question, a 2.5/1 which was not discussed by the designer, is to be considered.
I see further below the engine model is stated as 4.390TDI. Indeed that was a 200hp NANNI engine but WOT RPM was at 3.400 instead of 3.600 that the new engine T4.205 has.
3.400 WOT RPM would favor the 1.5 ratio if boat was very light. As I see they mention 2.450kg as the figure where they make the speed calculation. Not sure if this will be the final figure, as said.
I suggest that care is taken to restrict laden weight at 3000kg and as such we proceed with the 2/1 ratio.
At this displacement (3000kg) the boat should make approx. 24 knots maximum speed, ie approx. 27.5 mph. Cruise speed approx. 20 knots (23 mph).

I remain at your disposal.

Kind regards

Let me know your thoughts.

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:45 am
by jacquesmm
They aim for a higher speed than what I planned for but yes to the 2:1 with the prop I list on the plans.
I did not know that a 2.5:1 was available. It probably did not exist at the time of the design but we are limited by the prop diameter and availability.
Watch the weight if you want to go fast.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:00 pm
by les2021
Jacques

Cheers for your input, the engine side of things is a little outside my area.... ( ok miles )

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:48 am
by les2021
Hi All

It's time for more questions.....

Paint. My supplier on the main land stocks an Italian product called Nubian, Fondo 29 primer and Smalto 41 top coat, 2 layers of each. It seems this is Polyurethane Enamel.

The question is, is this a good product or should I be looking for an Epoxy paint product. I am about a month away from painting the bottom but need to get things organised.

I have no knowledge of epoxy paints and painting boats so any advice would be most welcome.

The hull is coming on nicely, I will post some photos soon, another couple of weeks and I should be ready for primer.

All the best

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:06 am
by fallguy1000
Paint is a complex issue.

First, is the boat going to be slipped or moored in the sea? Keepng the boat in the sea changes the paint requirement.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:18 am
by fallguy1000
After that main decision, there are several ways to go.

But the first decision is critical. Sea creatures love to stick to the boat bottom and so anti fouling paints are used. These paints slough or break away in light layers. But they do not trailer well.

The hardest paints are generally the best, so a common practice in boat paints is to use two part polyurethanes. However, these also have some issues to watch out for...namely, some of them do not do well under immersion and they are not easily blended at repair time. You must sand them for mechanical key and then the next layer is higher than the last and you get edges.

Of course, I have skipped primer. The boat needs primer, on all surfaces. Really, Les, there is one great primer on the market. Interlux 2000e. The stuff rolls on like magic. Your bottom should get 3 mininum to 5 coats of it. After the first coat, look for pinholes and fill them with fairing compound. Epoxy primer is really the only one you ought to consider, imo.

Back to topcoats, after the two part poly is one part polyurethane. One part is easier to blend, but the paint is not as hard.

Do not use a polurethane primer. The primer coat needs to be sanded with about 180 grit for key, so you will create a mechanical bond and can bond most any paint to it.

The interlux2000e can also be used for hullsides. I really love the stuff; it rolls on really well. If I were starting over; I'd only use interlux products.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:01 am
by les2021
Dan

The boat will be moored. I will try and find an Interlux supplier over here.
If I can obtain the finish you managed I will be over the moon.

So if I understand right.... After using the 2000e you can apply Epoxy or Polyurethane ? and the two part Poly is a better product ? But below water line it should be epoxy all the way ?

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:04 pm
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:01 am Dan

The boat will be moored. I will try and find an Interlux supplier over here.
If I can obtain the finish you managed I will be over the moon.

So if I understand right.... After using the 2000e you can apply Epoxy or Polyurethane ? and the two part Poly is a better product ? But below water line it should be epoxy all the way ?

Cheers

Les
For a small boat like the LB26, use Interlux 2000e on the entire hull exterior. You can roll it on with low nap fine rollers 6" wide max. Feather away always. Ask me if you don't understand.

Talk with the locals at the marina you will moor in and use their preferred anti-fouling to 3" above the waterline.

The way this is done is as follows.

#1 primer 3 coats back to back; repair any unsighlty fairing problems and sand it all with 120 grit
#2 primer a 4th and perhaps 5th coat based on paint on hand, or revise #1 and fair after a first coat..the primer allows you to see imperfections much better; some guys use a mist coat of car spray paint here, not me

After your primer coat looks nice, sand it to 180.

#2, if possible, paint the hullsides to design waterline by shooting a laser line to dwl and masking it off, use your topsides paint; dark paints are off limits unless you post cure. OR you can wait

#3 mask a line to 3" above dwl onto your hullsides topcoat and sand the topcoat and blend it back to the primercoat with 180 grit

#4...decision time. Anti fouling paints are not to be applied while the boat is cradled, generally.. so, you can flip the boat now or risk damaging the anti fouling(don't).

You can also opt to only apply primer and paint the boat when further along. The primer will protect the boat from uv and you can see if it looks nice or not.

Then when flipped, paint the hullsides down to dwl with topsides paint. Mask to 3" above dwl, feather in the top oat. Remask and paint antifouling to 3" above dwl.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:07 pm
by fallguy1000
Personally, I would only primer the boat now. There is a ton of abuse the boat will take on the cradle and the antifouling will probably fail some. Yes, this means lifting the boat off the cradles to paint under.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:14 pm
by fallguy1000
You can go back through my blog here to August of 2020 and see some Interlux 2000 going on..

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:21 pm
by TomW1
I sort of disagree with fallguy, since yours is a single hull boat, Finish the bottom only, not the sides and after the flip cover the sides with plastic. Pad the cradle so you won't damage the bottom paint. There are all sorts of bottom paints avilable some will last only a year some will last more depending on the use of your boatl You will just have to check what is available to you in Greece. Good luck on finding your bottom paint.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:27 pm
by fallguy1000
Prime the whole boat to the rubrail.

As for the rest, up to you, but priming now is easiest.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:25 am
by TomW1
Yes prime the whole hull to the rub rail now and finish only the bottom with the final bottom paint. Well good luck. Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:02 am
by les2021
Afternoon Boat Builders

Dan / Tom Thanks for the input on painting the hull. I will come back to this subject later if thats ok, trying to locate suppliers at the moment !!!

Today I want to raise the old swim platform debate !!! I am about to commence work on the platform so thought I would see if anybody had any advice before I go mad building.... This is based on the old Reefie thread and his ideas.

My idea is to laminate a spreader band around the transom, 2 layers of M200 / 2 layers glass. This I hope would spread the impact point if it should happen.

The platform would be 3 layers of M80 with a 45mm M200 ring beam band around the top to take the 9mm Marine Deck finish, the 45mm band will have reduced outlets to allow for the water to escape as the platform will have a 10mm fall.

The brackets will be 2 layers M80 / 2 layers of glass. I am planning 3 brackets, 1 centre and 1 each side 570mm from the C/L the ends will be picked up from rails that will travel 600mm along the topsides.

The last debate was on how strong the platform should be, should it break away if impacted so as not to puncture the transom. My transom is made up using M200 high density and I am planning 2 knee braces to add a little extra strength.

So guys have I put the cat amongst the pidgeons again..... I have attached a drawing.

Cheers

Les
2d63f73e-d41b-4bfb-8de0-12c41f433dd0.JPG

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:27 am
by Jaysen
Adding to the things you want to consider…

I’ve been working at a marina. A large number of boats smash the swim platform into the dock when departing. Consider angled corners to allow easier exit from docking.

The boatyard services say this is the #1 repair they have to do.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:26 am
by fallguy1000
Before I critique construction, have you considered stairs?

In the US, we have a boarding requirement that a single operator must be able to get back onboard.

some transom step ladders mount under, some mount on, and some mount into

Until you know the ladder, I'll reserve comments because the ladder needs hardpoints and enough dimension to support the plan.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:05 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Noted Jaysen.

Dan I was planning to use a Vetus Telescopic Platform Ladder or something similar.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:23 pm
by Fuzz
I am not sure how you can build a bracket strong enough to do the job and yet weak enough to break off before harming the hull :doh: I would worry it might break off when I did not want it to. Think I would build it strong and take my chances. And like Jaysen said it is pretty common to bump the bracket pretty hard around the docks.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:17 pm
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:05 am Hi Guys

Noted Jaysen.

Dan I was planning to use a Vetus Telescopic Platform Ladder or something similar.

Cheers

Les
Need hardpoints for the ladder.

Personally, I'd use the M200 and make the swim ladder removable. Make a step of M200 and bolt the platform on with 6mm bolts and cup washers. If the platform encounters any undue force like a neighbors boat driving onto it; the bolts should shear away from the platform, so the platform can be made with a calculated load rating. I can help with the calculations. Something like a rating of around 2000 pounds would be a good target, in my opinion. This means the bolt strength for 10 bolts is 200 pounds for each bolt. This can be easily calculated for 6mm bolts and the thickness of the bolting area.

Something like this...where the green is M200 and the yellow is the platform. You can calculate the shear ratings or close of the platform. I do not know how to calculate the shear of the platform with glass. But you can calculate the raw core shear ratings easily to get an idea.

JM might be able to help with the shear ratings with the glass.

But basically, you design the platform to fail by breaking down. The calculation might be more complex with brackets under the way you have drawn.

All a hair above my engineering abilities. You can also present the idea on boatdesign.net and someone might help you with the calcs.

I prefer the metal brackets underneath because you can design the bolts to shear versus an all glass platform that is not possible to remove for repair or painting.. if you put non-skid on it; you may want to unbolt for maintenance and painting on sawhorses every 5 years..

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:05 pm
by fallguy1000
M200 is 428 psi shear.

So, a 1/4" bolt going through 1" is 0.25 sqin.

428 #/in * 0.25" is 107# to tear out, but the glass adds to it..

..consider it conversational..

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:33 am
by les2021
Thanks

Dan / Fuzz

I'm am now and was then confused when I read the Reefie thread. Keeping it in mind I have owned a boat but never built one.....

I know all factory boats are different but many have platforms that are laminated direct to the hull so it all becomes one. This would suggest that there is a calc or method of building it as one with collision taken into account. Dan you mention S/S brackets surely these put more of a point load on the transom. If it takes a direct hit and the bolts shear and the platform flips up, what is to stop the object impacting your boat continuing and the point load of the bracket puncturing the transom.

My drawing of my proposed platform works along my way of thinking that.

The brackets are set back from the platform so the first thing hit would be the platform.
Putting the M200 double thick band across the transom would spread the impact, so if the platform was hit it would spread across the transom. The gap between the platform and the double band would only be about 5mm, this allowing if the platform should ever need to come off the lamination could be cut between bracket and platform.
Building the platform from M80 would hopefully allow it to break down ie dent/crush before anything more serious happened.

But remember guys these are only my thoughts I am a builder not a boat designer !!!!!

Jacques can you read the last 4 -5 post and give your thoughts please.

Back to you guys...

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:49 am
by jacquesmm
I am following this.
The concept of a "fuse" part is what I use in several places in my designs, in particular on sailboats. To have a cheap part that breaks before provoking major damage is a good idea.
For the swim platform, think of what will happen in a collision: either it is built as a part of the hull and will take an impact or it is designed to fall off and separate from the hull. I prefer the second one and I would have a solid bolt on swim platform with the bolts as the fuse component.

If any, most of the collisions will happen at slow speed during docking maneuvers.
Rounded corners will help but keep in mind that the swim platform has another function: it is also a chine fender. It protects the tumble home of the side to hit a dock. If you change the shape, add a chine fender.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:51 pm
by fallguy1000
Many systems on boats must be designed for failure.

If your neighbor in the marina comes driving into you real hard; an ice pick shape toward his hull moght be nice, but obviously impractical.

Everytime I am building something on my boat, I am always trying to be wise about how will it break. Never do we design or engineer a solution with the notion, it cannot break. Oh, there may be a rare case here n there, but generally, not.

I was at the marina one day and I watched a fellow back a rather large boat into the slip. He was a bit fast on the throttle and he hit an inflatable dinghy at the back of the slip. For him, the dinghy was the failure point. Should he hit the slip too hard, the dinghy received the swim platform impact and the swim platform, while still detachable was unharmed.

If you trailer the boat someday and another car hits it from behind; the swim platform will take a significant impact. And the M200 transom may be smashed by the swim platform. If your band of protection is stronger than m200; it will not allow an m200 swim deck to penetrate. However, M200 coaming, M200 platform top, M200 transom will have unknown results.

Designing the swim platform to break off the boat is the most sensible. If someone drives up onto your swim deck; where do you want shear? Because your swim platform cannot withstand another boat driving up onto you. But it can happen.

You have to consider how it will break or what will break.

Again, propose your idea on boatdesign.net and you'll get some interesting fellows like JM to reply.

I don't know the shear calcs with glass, so I am not much use to you, but I can offer your band of protection should be stronger than the transom itself and a bit higher if the platform breaks upwards. And the platform itself should probably be made with a lighter core with bolts that are designed to go through inserts because the bolts need to be tightened and cannot in light core.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:47 pm
by fallguy1000

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:00 am
by les2021
Morning Guys

Here we go again :D

Thanks Dan / Jacques

Dan interesting read. Very complicated and involved, am I right in saying that platform was not meant to fail I could not see a break off point at all. It was also a beast of a platform, have to say it did look fab when completed.

Back to my problem..... once again excuse my layman's terms and thoughts !

From what I have read from you guys and previous posts is that there is disagreement over should it break away or should it be part of the boat.
Jacques / Dan you seem both to be in the break away camp and as you have more knowledge than I think I have time to learn I am inclined to go your way. BUT there are things that I can not get straight in my muddled head....

Dan your sketch seemed to suggest a type of rebate section to fix the platform to the transom using s/s bolts 6mm, this I can go with. Slightly tricky on the glassing side but I can deal with that. Might need more advise on bolting direct through glass, washers/ plates etc.

But as mentioned before, for me the whole danger point is not so much the platform it is the brackets.

If you go the s/s bracket route with a calculated bolt size and an internal backing plate, with a side swipe hit I can see the bolts shearing same as with a down force, but this a very tricky calc. If the calc is wrong what is to stop the bracket twisting and breaking out the transom ?

What if there is a direct impact from the rear ? the platform flips but the impact continues and pushes the s/s bracket point load straight through the transom ?

The same principle I suppose would take place with the foam/glass bracket ?

So it seems the market place has many different designs, the question is which one gives the best appearance and safety aspect ?

Jacques can I be annoying and push this one over to you :D I am really engrossed in building this fab designed boat but this is one I can not just
build the way I would like, it does not make safe sense.

Your design includes a swim platform so there must be a way you envisaged attaching the platform to fail and still look good. Your design is exactly what I want to build hence my " wonderful sketch " ( nice comments only please :lol: )

Can you sketch up something that I can use for a guide ?

My preference is foam/glass brackets this is only for looks so will bow down to your advice.

If anybody else has thoughts please chip in.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:38 am
by fallguy1000
The bracket attachment points or pads also need to be made with something strong. They can be made of solid frp as can the edge of the hull.

You just laminate say 4-6 pieces of 600/225 tapes for the edge and for the pads. These are stronger than core. If you don't want the bracket fastening to penetrate the hull; make the bracket pads thicker.

I believe Penfield, on the link I gave you disconsdered failure, but designed the fastenings for 1000# minimum. His was solid frp; so he didn't have to bush the fasteners.

The most likely impact is for the platform to get driven onto or as Jaysen says, clipped. To reduce the likelihood of corner clipping; break the edge by the amount of side overlap. So, if the platform is 3" wider than the hull; just angle it back to the hull width aft. It'll look sexier that way as well.

For getting driven onto or impacted; the platform will break off in a downward direction, so you design everything to fail downward. The brackets will bend or the fastenings will fail, but the pads are at the hull edge.

You'll have to have bushings made or find something available and cut them down.

If you want to make it all solid core and not breakaway; then I'd at least not make the bottom brackets like spears into the transom. This can be done by making them strong enough to support 2000#, but of a material weaker than the transom...so light glass does that...

consider my comments conversation please

Also, consider trim tab locations when bracketing.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:55 am
by les2021
Morning All

Cheers Dan.

This does seem a subject that is difficult to get to the bottom of. I understand all the arguments for and against, but for a first time boat builder or even someone who has built before, a concrete answer from a marine engineer / designer is the only way to safely move forward. I can not find any structural details / sketches on this subject probably because all boats have different construction / lamination schedules.

I do not have the knowledge to start performing shear loads for bolts, fibreglass etc.

I could just use my own thoughts on this and beef up the lamination schedule more glass on the transom / topside / bottom connection. But would this then just divert the problem to a different location.

So at the moment things have stalled slightly.....

Dan, I am taking that FRP's are fibreglass, resin, pads ? and bushings do i take it these are backing plates / washers ? Sorry for the lost in translation or my lack of understanding.

Cheers

Les
0AB19AA2-9AAC-4E64-93FB-32EA98DE412D.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:43 am
by fallguy1000
The key is the word solid. Solid frp means no core. And that combined with proper mountings and brackets will protect your transom which also protects the boat from sinking. Now, I have not forgotten you are foam. But I do not know if your offsetting foam weights are enough to keep you from sinking or sinking below the engines if holed.

So, yes, what you have drawn is what I would build. I would also make a solid band of frp where the platform butts to the transom.

But, not with the foam brackets. I would use steel brackets. And so the solid frp pads would go to the hull edge, bearing in mind trim tab plans. I would reserve some space for them, but I can't advise absolutely. It is not my expertise and I would need to ask. Seems like a foot reserved on each edge would be great plenty.

If you insist on foam brackets; just make sire they are not made with M200 and make them light.

By the way, you can also make one of these pads for a transducer unless you are locating in hull. But again, must consider trim tabs. The benefit is no holes in the hull and only holes in the pad. So, 3/4" thick or 15mm perhaps pad. Not every detail belongs to the designer. I can tell you from my build, many elements were done by me doing the engineering. For example, if you only wanted to build a small swim platform for two people; it may be different than the designers. And for me, I engineered the roof for snow load here.

I understand how this can be frustrating, Hopefully, JM can provide some guidance. Otherwise, I can help as well. Mertens might be cruising on his own ship as he is retired and enjoying time at sea sometimes and internet is uncertain for him.

Also; you need to consider typical. Typical swim platforms I see all the time are made from teak. They are not integral to the hull. Here are commercial brackets. Don't buy these, they are made from crappy 304 and will rust for you. The pivoting ones are 316, though. These will also give you ideas as they have 3 styles.

https://www.teakmarinewoodwork.com/plat ... ackets.htm

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:01 am
by fallguy1000
Also, if you need vending help on 316 hardware, I recommend McMaster Carr. They do not vend to foreign accounts, but I would help you if needed.

Here are some 1/4" 316 bushings. You may need to grind them to length.

These are 1/2" od, so they would reduce the total need and allow you to build a foam platform. These guys also sell cup washers and other 316 hardware. I was a little disappointed in the 1/4" cups. I could tell they were made on very old, shit tooling, but they look okay on the boat. Just up close, they are shit rippled.

https://www.mcmaster.com/stainless-stee ... -size~1-4/

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:12 am
by fallguy1000
If you insist on making it integral; then I suggest you make the solid frp section wider. Bond it to the hull with thickened epoxy well. Then make the fiberglass tapes the weak point. You could achieve this by making tapes with 200 gram woven glass top and bottom. So, for a 24mm platform, you'd need to build the solid frp band 130mm wide (or 150mm if you have the materials. Then the light woven tapes can be the failure point. But this is a bit hinky because the bonding area of the platform of 24mm is going to make it really strong, so you'd almost need to not bond it..or spot tack it only..

Consider it conversational...please.. the solid glass piece glued to the hull would be 130mm min to 150mm practical. The platform joint might need more thought..but a light 200g tape top and bottom won't allow your hull to be damaged... okay

Give JM time to reply.
78D79CD8-CE99-461E-A3DF-456FF29DEBDE.png

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:21 am
by les2021
Dan

Very useful reply and good info thanks.

Stay with me I am learning as fast as I can. I have attached another couple of my wonderful sketches.....

I think I am with the bush thing and platform, as you will see I have not attempted the hull fixing as not quite clear yet. I have attached an idea of mine so please do not laugh ( oh alright laugh ) It would, I hope protect the hull and be a break off point. Let me know what you think..... But I think there may be a better solution ! The idea is a s/s strip embedded in the FRP with no direct bolting to the transom, the question is would it be strong enough.

Cheers

Les
89DB6802-558C-40DE-A662-903AA7561D40.jpeg
32668232-A62B-4A92-BB6A-EAF6893AB892.jpeg
BDF3D95C-0A92-4677-9298-8E36109F5E4A.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:42 am
by fallguy1000
What you have drawn could work. You calculate the shear of each bolt at the nut. But the failure here might be impossible to repair. What if the studs bend? Then they cannot be repaired. So, consider repair Les! Same as the integral version. You need to consider what happens if it breaks when you build a boat. It being anything.

The bow pulpit or cleatd are not different. If you don't put backing plate behind it; the damn thing might shear out in heavy seas at anchor or on the dock! Not trying to suggest you use a backing plate here! But you ought to learn to do some calcs as a boat builder. A 1/4" bolt is stronger than the surrounding foam, so the boat wpuld break instead of the cleat...not desirable. If you put a large enough backing plate in; one single cleat may be enough to hold the boat..or the bolts may shear instead of the boat tearing out..see?

A 1/4" bolt 316ss with shear rating of 50% of tensile pf 70,000 psi is 35,000 psi. Many use 50,000 here. I am erring low. Sorry not in metric.

1/4" bolt area is about minor area of 0.0269"" at 35000#/"" is 941 pounds to shear(seems high). So, from a design perspective, a bunch of these would be rather strong...maybe too strong.

I may or maynot seem helpful, but consider how things break when you design and build which is part of building a boat; despite our wishes for the designers to do it all for us.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:47 am
by fallguy1000
Here you would not need a bushing, but a hardpoint of 'm200 or coosa 20# or higher (blue).

No bolts, just screws bedded in 3m 4200.

Get a rough design done and order the brackets before you build.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:14 pm
by les2021
Evening

Point taken.

The outer brackets would only be long enough to have 2 fixings into the transom so my thoughts are bolts through hull with a backing plate would seem the better option as your suggestion.
So in summary I will have 2 bolts in the two outer brackets and 3 bolts in the centre bracket, 7 bolts in total. Bolt diameter is the question....

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:21 pm
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:14 pm Evening

Point taken.

The outer brackets would only be long enough to have 2 fixings into the transom so my thoughts are bolts through hull with a backing plate would seem the better option as your suggestion.
So in summary I will have 2 bolts in the two outer brackets and 3 bolts in the centre bracket, 7 bolts in total. Bolt diameter is the question....

Cheers

Les
Access will be key. In a foam build, we typically cleat with foam for locker bases and sole.

So, where will such bolts be located? They would be really low and hard to access Les.

Give Mertens some time to reply.

I am not a fan of the method with a backing plate. Access will be nearly impossible.

The backing plate was only an example of needing to do minimal engineering as an amateur builder. Sorry if I confused you.

Nevertheless, the dialogue is good because thinking it through now is best.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:24 pm
by fallguy1000
The better way to build it with metal bracketing is to screw the brackets into solid frp pads. No holes in transom. Screw are failure points; easily repairable.

Please give Jacques some time to reply.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:43 pm
by jacquesmm
At this point, access should still be easy.
You should fabricate the swim platform and drill pilot holes for the holes. Or, at least make a template for those holes.
Then, refer to my "foam sandwich notes" and install HD inserts or make single skin backing plates. I prefer inserts.
If you think you will not have sufficient access later, when the boat is complete, use the technique I describe for consoles fastening:
https://boatbuildercentral.com/support- ... lation.pdf
See the one with threated bolts. At the bolts, you weld a thick Al plate to the transom, on the inside and tap that plate for your bolts. You can then bolt and unbolt the platform from outside, no need for nuts or backing plates.
You choose bolts diameters: small ones if you want the platform to break away in a collision, bigger if you don't.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:09 am
by les2021
Morning All

Many Thanks Jacques / Dan

I think I am now as ok as I can be on this one.

I now have options so it will be my choice, all input has been very useful so many thanks.

Attached is YES another sketch of my taking on Jacques proposal.

Cheers

Les
0E84D895-F507-4FD0-AE01-5AB5D87C7A7D.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:00 am
by fallguy1000
Get the brackets measured up and made and that will really settle your nerves and help you decide how you want to build it.

I think you can either make the al insert or lay solid frp on. The al insert might be faster if you can run to an al shop. The solid frp will take you a few days to fabricate, sand, fair, etc,

in the ocean, the aluminum is subject to corrosion, so it should be painted with epoxy primer AND UV TOPCOAT and bolts should be bedded in 4200 to seal the galvanic intersection and reduce galvanics.

Modern adhesives should not be discounted either. Bedding ss brackets in 5200 and ss screws in 4200 into solid frp will not corrode or fall off at sea if you demand 316 hardware. 304 will make you sad..

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:53 am
by jacquesmm
That looks fine and I second Fallguys note about Al treatment. We have a detailed description of such a treatment in our repair section, Seacraft 23 section, look for the Al bracket description. Some of the picture links are broken but we are working on it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:51 am
by fallguy1000
Here is a guide for hole repair. The 1/4" or 6mm dimension is a bit short for my liking. 3/8" minimum for me...solid frp is made from 600/225 tapes which are about 0.050" per layer, so for 0.4"; you need to wetout 8 tapes; wet them on top of each other and use peelply on the final layer..

See the 1100 pound control? That would be what you get with solid glass and epoxy.
1A9E0224-130A-4372-9886-EC6A845ECBFD.png
Ps, for hole repairs, the best way is to thread a new hole and then insert raw epoxy and then fill with epoxy and milled fiber and cabosil; then it cannot pull out

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:56 am
by jacquesmm
The 6 mm diameter is for "fusible" bolts as I call them. They should not break under normal use.
Anyway, that is TBP.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:24 pm
by TomW1
Make sure you use marine aluminun 5052 or 6061. Then coat with aluminum cromate and good primer and marine paint, severeal coats. The Navy has used aluminum for decades and they last for decades. The major builder of platforms Armstrong uses aluminum and ship them all over the world. Don't let fallguys adversion to aluminum sway you against it.

Your platform will last your lifetime and as long as the boast.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:19 pm
by fallguy1000
TomW1 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:24 pm Make sure you use marine aluminun 5052 or 6061. Then coat with aluminum cromate and good primer and marine paint, severeal coats. The Navy has used aluminum for decades and they last for decades. The major builder of platforms Armstrong uses aluminum and ship them all over the world. Don't let fallguys adversion to aluminum sway you against it.

Your platform will last your lifetime and as long as the boast.

Tom
Tom- you never cease to end up offending people on a friendly forum. I am building a boat with massive amounts of aluminum. It has its place. You can learn something here. There is no need to refer to me in your post; none.

And the word, which you have used falsely to identify and attach to me is aversion; not adversion.

I also showed Les how aluminum can be faster here; so you are off base. Check your words and stop saying things that are simply not true.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:52 pm
by jacquesmm
Let's not get in arguments and keep it technical.
When working with Al. follow the instructions of the paint providers: the Al must be activated (grind down) then very quickly painted with zinc chromate (before Al oxide reappears) followed by a solid coat of primer and paint. I like epoxy tar but it is not very elegant.
All that is listed and shown in the thread I listed above, with pictures.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:15 pm
by Jaysen
jacquesmm wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:53 amSome of the picture links are broken but we are working on it.
Sorry about that Jacques. I have made changes to the webserver to correct the image links with no need to update individual threads. If you find any more broken images let me know.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:49 pm
by jacquesmm
I emailed Jeff about it.
I don't work on the site anymore and don't know what changes were made but the pics still exist, they are in the gallery.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:31 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Sorry for the lack of posts. So thanks all for the swim platform input so far.....

Had a bit of set back this week. Got taken into hospital on Monday, they found some blood clots in my lower leg :? They reckon it was probably down to my flight to Italy last month. BIG BUMMER so been on a drip and god nows how many injections and tests for the past four days. Just got home so probably no boat building until next week.

Life does throw some crap at you time to time, but I am one of the lucky ones I went to the hospital in time !!!

So will post next week.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:49 am
by les2021
Dan

The sealing / bedding compound 4200 / 5200 The only product I can find here at the moment is Tikal Marine Systems Contact 12, if you get a chance can you have a look and let me know what you think.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:32 am
by fallguy1000
Good they caught those clots. The vaccine can cause them. If they get to the heart; serious problems like stroke can occur, so glad you caught it.

I am not anti-vaxxer. Just stating some known facts.

I looked and that adhesive will be fine, but pay attention to the skinover time which is fast at 10-15 minutes. It basically means after applied; you have about 8 minutes to stick it or less in hot sun or it won't bond properly.

Hope you get a good recovery.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:40 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Happy New Year to you all. I hope you all had a fab Christmas and New Year celebrations. Let building commence !!!

Managed to get back in the workshop today, fairing, fairing and a little more fairing.... It is starting to pay off I THINK.

Just need to go back to the swim platform subject again.... I am happy with the transom fixings but forgot all about the side rails, these travel down the hull about 670mm, are these fixed in the same manor.

I have attached some bad photos !!!!

Les
2efde5c7-3d53-4f7d-9f5b-3dab057db482.JPG
2efde5c7-3d53-4f7d-9f5b-3dab057db482.JPG
2efde5c7-3d53-4f7d-9f5b-3dab057db482.JPG
75a90c2d-4edf-4b6c-afaf-7c7e68f715d0.JPG

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:41 am
by les2021
Ooops

Sorry having a bit of a repeat problem with the photos..... Techno I am not !!!

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:55 am
by fallguy1000
Sure looking good. Gonna need more? primer on there to see it better.

Side rails. Hmmm. I'd be less concerned about them. Maybe some marine adhesive or a single screw on the end and adhesive, or a couple screws and glue.

After the glue cures two weeks, you could remove the screws and thickened epoxy fill the holes.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:29 am
by les2021
Cheers Dan

Fairing sure goes on and on.....

Now waiting for the Primer to arrive should be here mid next week so have been doing some work on the swim platform, ready for glassing now.

Read through your thread about painting, did I read right you put 3 coats of primmer before final filling and fairing ?

Les
D50243F1-562C-4BD9-94EF-85ABCDA5AD75.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:36 am
by fallguy1000
For primer, I got some advice from Reid at bbc. I followed some of it.

I really like putting on one coat of primer and then sanding first. It really helps with understanding flaws in the work, and inevitably; you find a few high spots and end up sanding diwn to glass. This is the same as a mist coat which can be done with spray paint, but I am just not comfortable applying a different coating.

After the first primer coat dries; you can see imperfections. Take note; those magnify under gloss paints. If you are rolling, make sure to backroll and learn to hold the roller correctly. If you apply the frame side to the edge you are feathering; that is incorrect. If you are confused; let me know. It is critical to do right on boats.

And primers can be rather fast to dry sometimes. I used awlgrip 545 and it dries so fast you can't backroll 2' of it. It is really a spraypaint. I have two gallons of it here which are really useless afaic. Had to use a different paint system.

After sanding and fairing perhaps a bit more; the next thing may be spot priming. If you used fairing; spot prime those areas; then feather them in with 180 grit.

Then prime 3 coats back to back within the recoat reapply windows. Typically 3 days. Then sand it all with 180. It takes a lot of paper to do well. If you feel as though you are not seeing much glass or any darkspots; you can bump up to 220 grit over the entire boat. You may see some orange peel. This is related to the roller choice. Using very fine rollers reduces orange peel as does using thinners. In a perfect world, you can sand orange peel almost completely away with the 3 coat method. You may see some and decide to live with it. I use a festool rts400 and an even hand to sand here. Papers do not last long; typically 2-4 square feet and they are shot. When doing the topcoats; it gets worse. The 3 coats is Reid's advice and really solid.

Then I really prefer washing with soap n water.

A couple of warnings.

Fisheyes have become a nuisance in coatings. We have discovered through extensive dialogue with Epifanes Corp, the sources of the fisheyes are a couple of places.

The one that got me was paint tray plastic liners. They use a silicone mold release when they make them. All paint trays should be lined with aluminum foil. Food gfade foils do not permit the use of silicones. Another siurce of silicone discovered by Epifanes was West Marine rollers were getting cut off by their factory. The cutoff wheel was getting a once a shift spray with silicone to keep the cutoff from building up fibers. Depending upon when 'your' roller came off the line; you'd get more or less contamination.

Anyhow, it is a real nightmare. If you start applying paint and seeing a lot of fisheye; stop painting. These fisheyes become permanent and can only be sanded out. Keep enough solvent on hand to remove it if it happens. Then do some detective wirk. Silicone is the enemy.

Let us know the paint application plan. Rollers can produce good results. All rolling is done vertically; never horizontal. Cutting in can happen with a brush on edges, then the goal is to get close with the roller. For a boat your size 6" or 150mm rollers are what you'll want. Any wider and they 'walk off' due to hull curvature.

Ask away. I kinda have this dialed in.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:15 pm
by TomW1
Good ingormative post Dan.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:45 am
by les2021
Morning All

Thanks for that Dan. There are a few things that I think are lost in translation !!! These are my thoughts.

My plan was to prime as follows

1st coat, then let cure. ( mist coat )
Start fairing again :( ( when 100% happy )
Apply 3 coats and cure.
Final faring with 180 / 220
Apply final coat.
Antifoul to 75mm above DWL
Finish coats to chine.

I am planing a stripe along the hull at about 150mm down from the shear, so I will tape off at this point, this will also allow the laminating of the deck.

I have used a roller for vast amounts of time over the 35/40 years BUT never on a boat.... so once again I have things to master ! I understand the feathering part with the pressure on the roller, putting it to action I will learn :lol:

Questions

Before I start priming is it ok to to hover the hull and then wash and dry the hull a couple of times with soapy water and dry, OR do I have to use a product.

Once all coats are on do I then remove the tape and feather the primmer back to fairing compound.
Likewise with the antifouling do I also feather that back to the primmer.

Fisheye... do I take it these are pin holes in the primmer

So the dreaded rollers ( silicone ) Is it best to use a foam roller ? if so can I some how sterilise these before use.

The best Primmer I could locate here is International Gelshield 200 and Antifoul Micron 350. From my reading they sound ok ?

Well that"s the plan, so where is it flawed :lol:

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:09 am
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:45 am Morning All

Thanks for that Dan. There are a few things that I think are lost in translation !!! These are my thoughts.

My plan was to prime as follows

1st coat, then let cure. ( mist coat )
Start fairing again :( ( when 100% happy )
Apply 3 coats and cure.
Final faring with 180 / 220
Apply final coat.
Antifoul to 75mm above DWL
Finish coats to chine.

I am planing a stripe along the hull at about 150mm down from the shear, so I will tape off at this point, this will also allow the laminating of the deck.

I have used a roller for vast amounts of time over the 35/40 years BUT never on a boat.... so once again I have things to master ! I understand the feathering part with the pressure on the roller, putting it to action I will learn :lol:

Questions

Before I start priming is it ok to to hover the hull and then wash and dry the hull a couple of times with soapy water and dry, OR do I have to use a product.

Once all coats are on do I then remove the tape and feather the primmer back to fairing compound.
Likewise with the antifouling do I also feather that back to the primmer.

Fisheye... do I take it these are pin holes in the primmer

So the dreaded rollers ( silicone ) Is it best to use a foam roller ? if so can I some how sterilise these before use.

The best Primmer I could locate here is International Gelshield 200 and Antifoul Micron 350. From my reading they sound ok ?

Well that"s the plan, so where is it flawed :lol:

Cheers

Les
A couple of flaws.

1. You always sand primer before applying final finishes, so sanding is last step before topcoats.

2. Washing with soapy water is good; as long as you don't leave a residue from the water like lime.

3. Antifouling gets applied above dwl some percentage; for your boat 50mm. This is applied last. Consider the entire boat primed and sanded and washed. Next step is to apply the topcoat to the waterline. So, upside down boat gets painted dwl to sheer. Then, after two coats; you sand the topcoat with say 320 and a final coat. Then you mask this off to the 50-75mm above dwl, or upside down the other direction. Concept is you want anti-fouling to extend a bit beyond the dwl to keep marine critters and scum from ruining your topcoat.

4. After topcoating with your boat color in 3, feather in to the masked line by sanding. You should vacuum and clean this line and hull bottom. Then you are ready for anti-fouling. You NEVER feather anti-fouling. You only feather the topcoat. Concept is that antifouling is shedding paint; designed to flake off, so good topcoats never go above it ever.

Notes:

Fisheyes are not pinholes. Pinholing can be filled with fairing compound after you see them on the first primer coats.

Rollers. You need to find very good rollers and they are really not reusable. You do not want to clean them before using them. But if you have fisheyes; the rollers are cleaned in the thinner being used. The danger of cleaning the roller in thinner is damaging it. And it'll need to dry all the way.

The primer is applied to the entire boat; including the bottom. It looks like a good primer you chose. After you paint the main boat final color first, you sand the topcoat to a feather edge, but do NOT go through the primer. On my boat, I painted the topcoat to a masked line at dwl. Then I sanded the entire topcoat and removed the masking for the final coat to get rid of any masking tape edge. I can still see the waterline a bit. When I mask for anti-fouling this spring, I will try to lay that mark down flatter.

Clear as mud? Yes, the topcoat gets sanded. You apply 2-3 coats, sand it and then final. Before the final, I removed the masking tape and painted without masking the final coat; being careful to go well past the demarcation line where I could tell the old line (dwl) existed.

If you have any confusion; ask away. It is easier to understand now than make errors. Remember, antifouling is never feathered and always applied last and applied above the waterline.

Also, for you 150mm line, I would not do this way. Topcoats do not work well this way. You would be best off painting the entire hull the main color...then masking the 150mm line and then sanding with 320 grit and painting the other color. There will be a ridge of paint. Masking tapes must be non-bleed types or it will end badly for you. If you have to laminate the deck to hull; then you need to wait to paint because that tape will need fairing... if you insist on painting; you would need to accept a workboat finish here...I forgot you need a glass tape here, no? Ugh, sorry, I wrote this long paint instruction, but forgot your hull to deck is not done!

Hmmm. Not sure you should paint Les.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:17 am
by fallguy1000
The issue for you is that you really ought to not paint until you deck seam is done.

I forget the construction details, but you have a tape seam to do yet, no?

So, you are thinking to paint antifouling.

But this cannot be done. You would need to paint antifoulng first to say 50mm above dwl (this is the other way upside down). Then you'd need to mask antifoul, no! The antifoul should not be masked according to my training.

Also, if there is a tape seam to fair, that fairing may extend quite a way down the hull.

I'll wait to heat back from you. Sorry I did not realize this problem sooner. I see no way you should be painting now unless you want to prime the bottom.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:22 am
by fallguy1000
Here is a picture of a big issue for you.

The green is the hull to deck seam I believe you need still.

Orange is fairing compounds. That is a major tape seam, no?

You can only primer coat now; nothing else and only primer to past the dwl, no masking tapes.
11981B0C-2FA3-431E-B8B7-249DFD635712.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:24 am
by fallguy1000
You see a bunch of bateau builders painting their bottoms, but those are trailered boats. Slip boats need to be painted differently! The paints are completely different.

Also, this explains how some of the plan of attack was misordered. Do not try to paint to a masked line; it will not look good Les.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:35 am
by fallguy1000
The only painting you can do is priming the bottom. Mask off a line 3" above or in this case upside down (lower) than dwl. Prime to the masking tape a mist coat and do any additional fairing. Then three coat the bottom and sand it and stop.

Flip the boat and build the inside.

When completed deck seam, etc.

Mask off to dwl or the chine; your choice. Feather the primer to the masked line and make the primer on the hull sides even.

Paint the hull colors to dwl.

Mask to 2-3" above dwl and sand the topcoats to say 180 to prep for antifouling and paint the bottom last. Antifoul will not stick to glossy paints.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:32 am
by les2021
Afternoon All

Sorry for the delay in replying Dan.

It seems there is a lot more to painting a boat than a wall !!! I have to say I feel really uneducated when it comes to boat painting.... So I will ask stupid questions until I get the idea.

1. Can you get antifouling paint in colours to match your chosen hull colour or does this just show as a different colour. The antifouling range seems to be Grey / Green / White / Dark Blue. I am planning to paint the entire hull in a sort of midnight blue ( dark blue )

2. What is the reason I can not prime the entire hull at this stage. I realise I have a tape joint at the deck and this will need fairing. Can I not miss coat the entire hull so I can fair the imperfections.

3. Does the Antifouling need to be carried out in one hit, Or can I finish paint the bottom and antifoul to the chine. Then antifoul to above the DWL at the end. Or does this show a bad joint...or bad practise !

To my way of thinking if I can paint the bottom in one go it will give a better job rather than trying to paint up to the cradle then move the cradle and fill in. Or have I got that wrong !!!

Let me know what you think.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:20 am
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:32 am Afternoon All

Sorry for the delay in replying Dan.

It seems there is a lot more to painting a boat than a wall !!! I have to say I feel really uneducated when it comes to boat painting.... So I will ask stupid questions until I get the idea.

1. Can you get antifouling paint in colours to match your chosen hull colour or does this just show as a different colour. The antifouling range seems to be Grey / Green / White / Dark Blue. I am planning to paint the entire hull in a sort of midnight blue ( dark blue )

Generally no. You could match a topcoat to antifoul, but the antifoul will not have the same sheen which makes it look quite terrible.

2. What is the reason I can not prime the entire hull at this stage. I realise I have a tape joint at the deck and this will need fairing. Can I not miss coat the entire hull so I can fair the imperfections.

Yes. I believe I said you can prime epoxy primer.

3. Does the Antifouling need to be carried out in one hit, Or can I finish paint the bottom and antifoul to the chine. Then antifoul to above the DWL at the end. Or does this show a bad joint...or bad practise !

I suppose this could be done for convenience. Just no topcoat over antifouling.

To my way of thinking if I can paint the bottom in one go it will give a better job rather than trying to paint up to the cradle then move the cradle and fill in. Or have I got that wrong !!!

Let me know what you think.

Cheers

Les
Answers embedded.

Painting a dark color has some extra considerations. First of all, the dark colors show flaws a lot more than white. So, you'll want to be real careful with the final finish because everything shows.

And you won't like to hear this next bit, and some joker will post here that I am wrong, but a dark color is a heat magnet. And what happens is the epoxy and fairing compounds heat and change. And the best way to deal with this is to heat the boat which carries some risks... In Greece, temperature of say 100F and hot sunny days will hit the boat and distort the finish and you'll get print through. So, how do you deal with this is to heat the hull up. I did so in a very technical fashion. I put the hulls in 40' shipping can and installed 6 heat probes in the can abd blasted heat into the cans and kept the temp at about 155 for two hours. This is called post curing. And the epoxy is strengthened about 8%. But, there are other approaches. You could black tent the boat under a black tarp outside. In hot sun in Greece, the boat will get hotter than it will in ambient conditions and should not print through. Or, you can just accept print through and fix it all in a repaint...

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:50 pm
by les2021
Cheers Dan

The dark colour seems to be an extra problem. My boat shed is a dark material and in the summer it does get extremely warm, By June we are talking 30 + outside and at least 10% hotter under the cover. So that should help ?

Just wondering how factory boats deal with dark colours ? I suppose they have heated spray shops ?

Anybody else have advice on this one or am I mad going for a dark colour ?

This painting lark gets a bit involved….

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:05 pm
by fallguy1000
Probably won't get as hot in the shed as under a black tarp temp post cure oven.

Here is an article. Read down to dark colors.

https://yachtsurvey.com/Paint.htm

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:20 pm
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:50 pm Cheers Dan

The dark colour seems to be an extra problem. My boat shed is a dark material and in the summer it does get extremely warm, By June we are talking 30 + outside and at least 10% hotter under the cover. So that should help ?

Just wondering how factory boats deal with dark colours ? I suppose they have heated spray shops ?

Anybody else have advice on this one or am I mad going for a dark colour ?

This painting lark gets a bit involved….

Cheers

Les
Most factories building epoxy core boats charge around 200-250k for a boat like yours..they may use prepegs or they may put the hull in an oven. Not sure how prepegs are post cured or if..

When I made the oven for my boat, I had to make sure no hull compartments were not breathable because I was doubling or better their build temps. Also, the heat should not be sudden. So, you would roll the boat out in the evening and build/cover it. Then the next day, real hot day, would warm up slowly. But no voids are allowed or they will blow up like a balloon. And you'd be hoping for post cure temps probably around 145-155F. Any hotter and you'd vent the enclosure.

Dark is harder. You may get some print through from white. I did not post cure the cabin and it is painted white and I got some movement at the beams on the roof and they all printed through once the sun hit them in the summer.

But if you want to go dark color; you want to tent it outside under black cover. I had old vinyl road signs here and they were actually on top of my ovens to get some solar gain!

Otherwise; I'd go lighter color or plan for some printing thru.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:28 pm
by fallguy1000
Another thread of opinions for you Les.

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/post ... 737/page-2

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:34 pm
by fallguy1000
You could also run an electric heater or two inside the shed mid summer in Greece, but make sure none of your supplies are inside. I would not advise heating acetone jugs or black markers or tools like sanders to 140F.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:39 pm
by TomW1
les dark colors and hi temps do not go well go very well together. Bleed through from the fiberglass is the big problem. If you want a blue go light with something like Sea Foam from Awgripl or another one of there lighter blues. https://www.boatbuildercentral.com/wp-c ... rchart.pdf Well good luck and hoe you find a color you like.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:45 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Thanks Dan / Tom

I now think I have read enough on paint colours !!! It does seem that there are very differing views on dark colours. I went to the local marina and went on various webcams through out the med and ionian waters, lots and lots of dark hulls.....I admit that I have not heard their views on heat etc.

The main thing is I can not afford to keep repainting !!! So at the moment I am thinking white / Ice blue combo or white / light grey.

The main thing is the bottom will be white so it will not hold me up. I will post my idea on topside paint scheme later and get your views and ideas on how to carry out the right sequence to make a good job of it.

Dan I will post sequence of what I think it is you are suggesting regarding the method of painting the bottom for you to have a look at, anybody else have a view... all will be gratefully received...

No building over the last few days, lousy winter storm.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:21 am
by les2021
Morning All

Dan, with regard rollers is it best to use a foam roller ? primer should arrive today.

Cheers

Les

PS This forum is a life saver for me as a first time builder. It is great looking at all the other threads and watching all your boats coming together. I am sorry I can not add much as I am only the pupil !!! ( bit old but he ho )
But a big thanks to all you out there that are helping me along this fab journey.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:53 pm
by fallguy1000
Foam rollers have a tendency to bubble in some finishes, but are the general go to for me on topcoats. Systems 3 primer is terrible applied with foam, for example. It bubbles way too much. The paint viscosity is too low is all or something like that..

I won't declare one type of roller greater than another.

I used some 7" very thin 6mm nap rollers.

You do NOT want a roller that loads a lot of paint.

I also had to use a smaller 6" roller because my 2" roller wouldn't fit in smaller spaces. And you'll want a brush to touch off drips if you go back and see any.

Final painting is done using a wet edge. What does this mean? It means you cannot apply paint over already applied paint. Polyurethane paints do not allow you to go back. You must plan any forced intersections. Fortunately, for your boat; this should he relatively easy.

Epoxy primers are given the same treatment. Avoid rerolling as a general rule.

The difference between a good painter and a poor painter is holidays. Missing paint is the telltale sign of a lousy painter. The opposite is sags and runs, but in the primer coats, those are sanded. Use the primer coats as training for the final finishes. As you progress through paint coats; you ought to improve with each layer.

Good luck. Ask away if needed.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:06 am
by les2021
Cheers Dan

Almost ready, will let you know how it goes.

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:45 am
by fallguy1000
Hopefully you can find some 6mm foam rollers or 4-6mm mohair or Epifanes motopren.

You might get away with 10mm rollers for primers, but it is best to learn the final coat system with the primer work. Free training..

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:56 am
by les2021
Back again.

Lousy weather here so going through drawings and looking ahead.

Jacques / Anyone

I have been looking through the drawings and for the life of me I can not find dimensions for the frame tops

Cabin upstands
Deck slope
Cabin roof curve

The measurements on the deck side wing drawing does not line up with stations / frames. They are most likely there but I need a point in the right direction. :idea:

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:55 pm
by jacquesmm
I am out of the office and look at my files on a laptop.
I am on boat right now, somewhere in the middle of the Pacific with an erratic satellite connection.
I can't find that dimension. It must be somewhere on the plans because several boats were built but I don't see it.
All the deck and roof cambers are extracted from the same curves. One for the roof, one for the deck. I will be back in the office mid February and if needed, I will draw a new master curve for each.
Are you unable to progress? If necessary, I can go ashore Monday or Tuesday and extract the curve from the 3D model.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:14 pm
by fallguy1000
He is only reading ahead.

I am also unable to determine dimensions for the bulkheads.

He hasn't flipped the boat.

Les...JM should be able to get you dimensions, but they will only be close. The best thing for you to do os once you get dimensions; make cardboard templates; install them using tape and blocks to hold them in place and draw adjustments and check them woth a batten for and aft.

Never build them tight or they will push the hull out and leave a mark.

As for the camber, JM must provide. In the absence of some guidance; it can be done with battens. 3/4"x3/4" hardwood battens is an old school method.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:35 pm
by jacquesmm
Thanks Fallguy. I follow many building threads and do not always remember at which stage each builder is.
The LB26 is built on a jig made from molds.
The molds are at the stations, the dimensions are there. There is no deck camber on those molds.

The frames and bulkheads dimensions must be taken from the finished hull shell. Once you get there, you will see why that makes sense. You do not cut any frame or bulkhead before building the hull, you take the dimensions from the hull shell.

The top edge of some of those bulkheads sets the camber of the deck and cabin roof. I see the crown of the roof on the plans, that gives the camber but it is not easy to work from.
The dimensions for that camber on each bulkhead should be on the plans, that is what I was looking for in my previous post.
That camber is drawn in a specific way: you start with the height in the middle and draw the curve from there. This is usually done on a template from which you draw roof beams.
You don't need that camber dimension to build the hull.

I will give you that camber dimension well before you finish the hull or I may find it on the plans and post here.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:15 am
by les2021
Morning Jacques

Thanks for passing on the message on Dan the time difference means I always pick the post up much later.

As Dan says Jacques I was only planning ahead, I am at the stage of priming the hull so hope to flip in about 4weeks. I will post again when you are back on firm ground so you have all the details in front of you.

In the mean time enjoy the Pacific where ever you are.......

On your post Dan you mention about a gap between the hull and main frames. So with that in mind are you saying there should be a say 5mm gap set off with spacers and then the tabbing holds the frames in place with a hollow space behind ? The foam core build spec shows a taper foam fillet between the hull and frames, this would suggest it is solid between the hull and frames.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:24 am
by fallguy1000
It is made solid with putty. You ALWAYs undersize the bulkheads 3-6mm.

I used a hotglue gun to hold my bulkheads in place; it seems to work well at 3mm, but was harder to do at 6mm.

Once the bh was hotglued; I would force epoxy putty into the margins; create my fillets and then do the taping over the top. All tapes were wetted on plastic on a table. This reduces resin losses and affords primary bonding of the tapes to the fillets.

If your bonding putty does not have enough fumed silica; it will sag before you get the tapes done.

I do not pastry bag. It is okay for smaller boats, but it reduces the kick time sognificantly as the epoxies are all rated at 100g ball and the ball is bigger in a bag.

I put all my bonding putties on a cardboard or flat board and keep tjem thin. I use 3 trowels, a 3,4,6".

Apply the fillers and create the fillets with a tongue depressor; clean the excess with the 4 or 6" trowel.

After the fillets are done, wetout the tapes. Bring them back to the boat on a piece of cardboard.

You must work fast in temps over 75. The first time you will be slow, but after the first small bulkhead A; you will get the hang of it.

The hotglue allowed me to putty and tape immediately. Otherwise, you have to putty; then sand, then repair if anything sagged even a little. The fillets won't sag it you tape over them quickly. If they are sagging; they are too wet and need more silica.

Do not attempt to laminate the bulkheads without dryfitting. If you are short; you can add foam using an aluminum brad that stays in or a plastic copula. If you are long, cut the excess before glassing. I realize you want to skip ahead, but I built one of my bulkheads early to drawings and it was way off and took me a couple hours to trim to fit because it had glass on it.

I use an oscillating tool everyday on my build. Get one.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:08 pm
by jacquesmm
What Fallguy describes is correct but my preferred method is shown in my
Foam Sandwich 101" file: a trapezoidal pad of foam under the bulkhead edge. It produces nice fillet. See a picture in this file:
https://boatbuildercentral.com/support- ... how-to.pdf

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:07 pm
by fallguy1000
Yes, padding is another option and you can use offcuts.

You still must leave a gap between the bulkhead and the pad.

I used padding on the Skoota wherever I have solid frp, no core.

To make pads; you rip corecell pieces on a table saw.

But I would still use bonding putty under the tapes unless you were trying to squeeze weights down.

To use padding, locate the bulkhead and draw
Lines for where the padding will home. Epoxy bond the padding to the hull. You can same day hot glue the bulkhead to the pads, but you need to be careful to watch that you don't move the bulkhead; you can also spot hotglue the pads if worried

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:11 am
by les2021
Thanks Jacques / Dan for the notes on fixing bulk heads.

Weather really lousy over here which is not the norm, snow / hail storms. ( global warming so they say )

Priming will have to wait until next week... So I have been fairing the swim platform, the lovely Greek guy down the road made me some s/s brackets.

I have been planning ahead again as I can't get on, I have attached a drawing of what I think the stringer location and size will be.

Jacques or anyone let me know if I have got it wrong.....

Cheers

Les
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B931C886-2097-4AB8-87C2-F93FEA25BE3C.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:41 am
by fallguy1000
Did you order the engine yet? You really ought to make sure you can get the engine planned for the stringers before you build them. What with global shortages; it would stink to find out you have to wait 18 months for it.

Hopefully JM can get you some dimensions. One of the reasons I fell out of love with the LB26 were confusion over things like that where I felt I was too daft to build it without some of the dimensions more clearly laid out.

The brackets look good. It looks like they have a good planned failure at the strut and the hull looks well protected from them. The work looks really great Les. It is going to be a dandy boat when done.

Where will it find a home?

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:14 pm
by les2021
Dan

Thanks for the encouraging words. I really am finding the challenge great fun. ( fairing excluded :( )

Luckily I order the engine and paid the deposit before the end of the year so I kept last years price, the engine is due into the supplier this month.

Agreed some of the measurements are not clear hence asking for conformation, I do not mind drawing up sketches as it gets it clear and fixed in my small old brain..... the forum really helps with this type of thing and luckily Jacques is at the end of an email.

If it floats !!!! it will be moored at a lovely little fishing harbour 10 minutes drive away Kolymbari. It's a job to imagine lowering her into the water at this stage.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:17 pm
by fallguy1000
Make sure you have some battens around. Those are 3/4" x 3/4" hardwood strips. They can have bow in one direction as long as you realize it.

They really help when you are trying to make sure the deck and bulkheads are fitting. I have a 16 footer I used some to make sure lines and cambers made sense.

For you, I would recommend cutting as many of the essential parts out as you can before laminating.

for some of your work; you should understand how to make tape reliefs in corecell-do you know how? It will save you some fairing work...which is nice...

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:41 pm
by les2021
Dan

The first thing is it would be great to know what a tape relief is :D !!! then it would be great to know how to make them.

Less fairing would be soooooo nice

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:41 pm
by fallguy1000
I will send you a link to a video.

There is an error in how I cut these. They should be tapered cuts to zero, but I could not manage to align the blades that way on my cutting tool.

Also, for two tapes; they must be staggered, so the width of the rebate or relief must be about 1" or 25mm wider. Stacking tapes is a no no in boat building and should be used rarely.


https://youtu.be/fVzPXArUZ0I

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:47 pm
by les2021
By the way how spooky is this since my last post I have had an email saying the engine arrived today !!!

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:49 pm
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:47 pm By the way how spooky is this since my last post I have had an email saying the engine arrived today !!!
Perfect! Hide it well!

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:52 pm
by fallguy1000
Consider the exterior bulkhead tabbings for tape reliefs or any furniture pieces. A few small items I decided were not worth the trouble, but I used quite a bit of reliefs on this boat. I had over 5 gallons of corecell grindings before I started throwing it out.

I mixed the corecell grindings with epoxy for making beam saddles. The corecell does not crack like silica does in thick situ.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:06 am
by les2021
Looks like a great time saver.

Question. With the bulk heads if I form a relief on both sides so 3mm X 2 = 6mm that will only leave 9mm of Corecell..... Will that be ok ?

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:46 am
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:06 am Looks like a great time saver.

Question. With the bulk heads if I form a relief on both sides so 3mm X 2 = 6mm that will only leave 9mm of Corecell..... Will that be ok ?

Les
Well, so much depends on the tabbing schedule and whether the tape seams are even seen and whether the designer says okay.

As a general rule; only one side gets rebates. But for an internal bulkhead; both sides may be allowed. For seams not seen; it should not be done. You would need to ask permission for two sides I'd say. And none of the hull would be permitted to be relieved.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:38 pm
by jacquesmm
For the engine beds: the plans can only show typical engine beds, dimensions will vary very much depending on the exact type of engine and transmission. Once you have the engine in your possession, build a plywood template as I shown in some of my tutorials.
https://boatbuildercentral.com/support- ... lation.pdf

The engine beds can never be too strong. Add layers of glass, replace the core with HD foam or sandwich the stringers between extra layers with HD foam.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:37 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

Another first today epoxy priming a boat hull ( every day is a school day )

Epoxy paint is a new one on me but I have to say the International Paints Gelsheild 200 is a great paint and seemed easy to use.

Really please with the results. Have attached some really bad photos, it's not easy to get the light right in my tiny work space.

Cheers

Les
704A4F19-E1F5-4F14-964D-1101CF08C05C.jpeg
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30B3B299-1812-4141-A007-DE0A4BA2F7C5.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:54 am
by Jeff
Nice job Les!!! Jeff

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:57 am
by fallguy1000
Sure looks good. One thing I noticed and u r probably aready aware. Make sure the three hull guards in the back for the swim supports are a bit higher than the hull bottom or you could end up getting a very annoying rooster tail(s) at speed.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:00 am
by les2021
Morning All

Cheers Jeff / Dan

Now to iron out all the little imperfections. I am thinking of getting her up on to wheels so I can get it out in the day light as I think this will show the true hull shape and all the little dips etc.

Apart from more fairing I will start to prepare the cradle and get that ready for the flip.

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:44 am
by fallguy1000
I bolted my boat to her cradles when I flipped, but built in a female mould, so flip was to upside down.

Make your cradles so they make the boat level to dwl or close enough to shim them.

You seem like a prudent builder, but figured I'd mention. The boat can twist of you take all the inside out before flipping; so I'd leave some stations in and probably tie the cradles back into them or a couple.

Another thing that works is a fluorescent light held vertically. Just a hanging light and set it on a ladder and wire one side to the ladder and it really shows things.

I made the mistake of painting my first hull too early and then had the shock of my life when I saw how uneven it was and had to longboard it for a few days and scratch all the paint off. The side light really helped me.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:27 pm
by les2021
Evening All

Looks like you have had some foul weather ?

The world has gone mad, we had snow at low level in Crete last week. we live 2k from the beach but we still had snow... crazy

The fluorescent strip light worked great Dan so now filling up ready for more coats. I have decided to prime and Antifoul up to 2"above DWL in white and then leave topside until I have flipped. I have made the cradle just need to stick some old carpet to protect.

I have though filled the topside as much as I can before taping the deck and then fairing the tapes.

If all else fails I will put the engine on the cradle and use it for off roading !!!!

Cheers

Les
27F4C69C-8612-4378-AEE9-1AB8E3C2990A.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:17 pm
by les2021
Evening All

Need a little advice ( yet again )

First coat of epoxy primer really good.... second coat had a bit of trouble with orange peel, any ideas why this should happen and how I can avoid it.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:06 pm
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:17 pm Evening All

Need a little advice ( yet again )

First coat of epoxy primer really good.... second coat had a bit of trouble with orange peel, any ideas why this should happen and how I can avoid it.

Cheers

Les
Well orange peel happens for a couple of reasons.

First, anytime you do not roll and then tip; some orange peel will occur. It is just a fact.

Apologies Les, this will not get a grammar award. Dad is in major decline and I am very distracted.

Orange peel means the paint thickness is varying when applied and not laying down real well.

Second, reducing orange peel is done a couple ways.

First, the primer should not be thick, but most primers do not require thinning. And, of course thinning can happen by warmer application temps alone.

Second, the roller is important. A heavier roller will impart more paint and more paint has to lay down more. I really struggled to find rollers I loved. The ones from nour in Canada were my preferred, but they didn't make them narrow enough.

Third, method is also important. When you roll boat paints; you must apply them thinly.

Finally, expect some orange peel. After you three coat the primer; it must be sanded flat using about 180-220 grit paper and this can be quite a task, but each layer of primer adds to the variation in thicknesses.

All of this is very subtle business. The final primer coat should be sanded at 220 and you will not improve any areas of heavy orange peel. They worsen with the topcoats.

Of course, thinning an epoxy primer with a specified solvent will also help, but thin coats of primer over orange peel are not much help because you have some sanding for sure.


Hope this helps some..

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:25 am
by les2021
Dan

First really sad news about your Dad. Hope all goes as well as it can.

Have been out today to track down some better rollers, think I have found some good ones that will lay down less paint. Think I might have been putting to much on the second coat...
Question what does tip mean as your first comment roll and tip.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:01 pm
by piperdown
les2021 wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:25 am Dan

First really sad news about your Dad. Hope all goes as well as it can.

Have been out today to track down some better rollers, think I have found some good ones that will lay down less paint. Think I might have been putting to much on the second coat...
Question what does tip mean as your first comment roll and tip.

Cheers

Les
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ_T84GU_as

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:53 pm
by TomW1
Dan take care of your Dad right now your boat and the Forum can be second in your life at the present. Being 800 miles from our parents Deb and I both missed out on the last few days of our parents lives and both of us regret it. Both our prayers go out to your Dad and your family.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:19 pm
by fallguy1000
Another source of orange peel is rolling too long. If you roll too many times; the paint doesn't have time to lay down.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:26 am
by les2021
Evening All

Cheers Eric helpful Video.

Tom I sure we all agree you only get one lot of parents.

Jacques not sure if you are back from your latest adventure. If you are I am going to re-post one I sent a few weeks back as I am planning to flip the monster this coming week so will need info soon....

Can you confirm my sketch relating to the stringers as I have drawn ie spacings etc.
I have also tried to work out detail measurements for the frames, can you have a look and correct if wrong and give any other dimensions or advice.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:25 pm
by jacquesmm
I see two questions:
1. the ideal width of the stringers
2. the curvature of the roof.

For the roof camber, you always start with a master curve. From there, you pull the camber for all frames. The master curve can be an arc or a curve draw as in boat design books like Skenes.
I will prepare a 3D drawing.

For the stringers, they must accept the engine mounts. My preferred method is to build up engine beds along the stringers. I will also prepare a sketch. Are you certain about the engine mounts spacing? Is it 570 mm between centers? How wide are the engine mounts?


Give me a couple of days: I am still unpacking my suitcases. Once you'll get the drawings, you will see how simple it all is.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:20 pm
by jacquesmm
Here is the first picture:

Image

You have the frames locations on the construction drawing.
Draw a line across at the sheer, give it a camber of 52 mm and draw a plain arc.
That gives you the camber for the deck and the angle..
Use the same camber for all the coaming edges, along the cockpit.
More in a minute.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:24 pm
by jacquesmm
Image

That's frame C, deck camber first. It is almost the same as D but the beam is wider, therefore 3 mm more.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:29 pm
by jacquesmm
Image

Frame C, roof camber.
Dimensions from CL and sheer straight line except for 173 which is from the deck camber arc.
I made it a 2 step drawing, easier to explain but it is a one piece deck mold.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:43 pm
by jacquesmm
Image

Last, B and A.
A is easy, 34 mm camber.
I case you can't read B, deck camber is 64, roof 198 and I forgot to show the roof top corner, it is at 547 from CL.

Now you have a bunch of mold along which you can lay the deck and roof.
The molds are a guide only. Fair the longitudinal lines between the molds.
I would lay the deck down first, make it a little too wide on the inside and trim later, after you shape the roof.
Normally, the builder should loft or make a temporary battens mold for the whole superstructure. The molds I show area good start, use them as master curves and fair. I who the dimensions for the outside skin. You have to offset for the thickness of the foam. Some builders like to build a very thin mold made from nice plywood or battens, 4 mm. They, they glass over it, put the foam down and glass the outside skin. This gives a nice finished look on the inside ceiling.

Disregard the excessive curvatures along the sides, use my dimensions only for the deck and roof camber.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:22 pm
by fallguy1000
Jacques-I recommend you add this to the formal plans. One of the reasons I opted away from building were some of the unknowns for diy builders.

Kindest regards. Dan

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:00 am
by les2021
Hi All

Jacques. Thanks that is perfect, my dims were not far our :D I will have a proper look tomorrow but they seem to give all the info i need.

Regarding your question on the engine mounts, please see attached details.

Dan. Hope all is ok with you. My parents are a 4 hour flight away and mum is 90 in June, not easy with whats going on to pop back and forward....

Anyway I went out and bought some new rollers, wow what a difference, 4 coats of primer on the bottom so far and dead smooth, no orange peel at all. I think it may have been a little down to my inexperience !!! On my final sanding I used 180 grit and a quick 220 and washed down until a white cloth had no grey colour at all when wiped. Really happy.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:43 am
by OrangeQuest
Can you post the brand of rolls you bought please!

I silently follow your build as I have no knowledge to share.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:21 pm
by Fuzz
You have probably thought about this already but are you planning on getting a down angle transmission? Sure nice to help keep the engine in a more level state.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:42 am
by jacquesmm
Fuzz wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:21 pm You have probably thought about this already but are you planning on getting a down angle transmission? Sure nice to help keep the engine in a more level state.
Yes, before we go further, look at the down angle transmission. It will save room in the cockpit and lower the center of gravity. It is available for that engine.
Are you certain that the dimensions you show are correct? I mean, do you have the engine? There are several other set ups, some with the rear mounts lower than the front.
In all cases, I think that the width is the same. I will draw w little sketch of proposed stringers and engine beds.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:55 pm
by jacquesmm
About the engine beds, here is a link that should be listed in the tutorials:
https://bateau2.com/free/inboard_tpl_notes.pdf

It is a file extracted from the ST21 building notes but it will help for other boats.
It shows how to make a template to align an inboard engine but, it also covers the engine mounts.
In order to choose a stringer spacing, we must choose how we will install the engine mounts: on top with lag bolts or brackets?
I strongly prefer brackets. There is a drawing in that file.
Those L shaped brackets should be minimum 3 times longer than the base of the mounts and in your case, if the fore and aft mounts are at the same level and same spacing , they should be in one piece: one long L beam bolted through the engine beds.
I write engine beds but those are also the stringers. Under the engine, the stringers become engine beds.
Get your L extrusion first: width = mounts width plus 10 mm each side to allow for adjustments. Thickness 12 mm in Al. Length = distance between mounts plus 200 mm.
I would extend those engine beds all the way to the transom and to the bow and consider them stringers. Put the L brackets inside and they will be close to the ones on the plans.
At the level of the engine mounts, where you bolt through, the core of those engine beds/stringers must be HD foam. Here in the US, I would use Aquaplas III because epoxy bonds well to it and it has great screw retention.
The HD core has to go from about 500 mm behind the rear mount to 500 mm in front of the front mount. You can go further if you want.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:01 pm
by jacquesmm
Here is another link that shows pictures of engine beds:
http://bertram31.com/proj/tips/engines.htm

If I remember well, he bought all his supplies from BBC. His installation is different but what is interesting is that he used lag bolts on a reinforced core. something I mention in my tutorial. That is if you want to have stringers spaced as in the original LB26 design. just, don't use wood as he did, use HD foam.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:43 am
by les2021
Hi Jacques

Thanks for the latest info. The engine is arriving 1st week of March, they are holding it in their warehouse.

It does show as far as I can see the engine mounts are on the same level.
C4AA4052-3E48-4211-88C9-0BD001F7B156.jpeg
4A627241-97EF-4D57-8094-4D35062744EA.jpeg
Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:59 am
by les2021
Hi Orangequest / Fuzz

Sorry for the slow response....

I am a silent viewer of many of the builds but likewise I not sure I can add much as I am the student, I can only add what I have learnt so far.

As far as the transmission goes it is down angle up to 14 degrees, the transmission is a Hydraulic angle-down gearbox Kanzaki Tuff Torq
TTM40 2.04/

Now about the rollers.... about 5 minutes down the road there is a little village with a paint shop run by a guy called grumpy George... well he has the charisma of a brick wall. BUT he does have these rollers that seem very good ! wait for it they are 1 euro each :D
66B58A5D-FF1F-4D0B-BB87-FBCF2A623A50.jpeg
ABCF9BA3-4229-4672-A21E-821EA1C9CDA0.jpeg
Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:01 am
by les2021
Jacques

Forgot to say the transmission is as follows.

As far as the transmission goes it is down angle up to 14 degrees, the transmission is a Hydraulic angle-down gearbox Kanzaki Tuff Torq
TTM40 2.04/

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:42 am
by les2021
Afternoon All

Well !!! first stage of the flip today, pulled the monster out of the workshop. It looks even bigger now I thought it would look smaller....

Planning to build the cradle for flipping tomorrow and flip on Monday, have to say I will be glad when the beast is on it's new cradle :D

Will post photo of cradle tomorrow if anyone sees a stupid error or has anything to add I would be most grateful.

Cheers

Les
B6FF0C8F-EF48-4CE8-BED1-347923727739.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:58 am
by fallguy1000
What a great picture!

Yeah, she's a big boat, but the lines are dreamy..

I tip the picture upside down just to stare at it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:45 am
by jacquesmm
les2021 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:01 am Jacques

Forgot to say the transmission is as follows.

As far as the transmission goes it is down angle up to 14 degrees, the transmission is a Hydraulic angle-down gearbox Kanzaki Tuff Torq
TTM40 2.04/

Les
You have to know the exact transmission down angle and dimensions before you build the engine beds. In most cases, those Kanzaki down angle are at 7 degrees but you need the dimensions for the mounts. Your previous drawing shows a straight transmission.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:54 am
by les2021
Evening Guys

Well tomorrow is the scary day.... flip day !!!

Have built the cradle today, will put a load more bolts in tomorrow morning and then pray....

Have a look at the cradle and let me know if anyone can see a mistake.

Flipped the photo Dan not bad eh !!

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:17 am
by fallguy1000
Well. I would have made the bottom edges(now the top) 45 degrees, so the roll is staged more. It really only needs to be one side, but should be okay. Just gonna be hard to control passed the tipping point and might slam. Make sure people are not in the way. You could still modify it and then make the cradle full width after turning. I flipped a boat the way you did the cradles once and regretted the square way. Nothing stops her when the thing gets over the center of the tipping point. A lot depends on the weight. She is pretty light now..so you are probably gonna be fine. The one I flipped was a 24' wood hull with double planked bottom and quite a bit heavier. Oh, but you have all the stations. So, still heavy.
6E923E0A-6DA0-4FF8-B46E-48DF07D6C91E.jpeg
She is so beautiful rightside. Great lines.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:23 am
by jacquesmm
It looks good. Use a couple of tackles to control the roll and it should go smoothly.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:28 am
by fallguy1000
jacquesmm wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:23 am It looks good. Use a couple of tackles to control the roll and it should go smoothly.
Good remedy as well. A couple of tackles will help keep it from going over fast. We had a man on a rope on the flip I mentioned and he could not stop it. Had to let the rope fly.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 11:33 am
by Dougster
I had the same geometry cradle on my LB22 flip. It was no problem but that's a lighter build and I had 10 guys helping, which was more than enough man power. With a bit of tackle I bet it's smooth. Good luck, I know it's a very big day.

Dougster

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:56 am
by les2021
Evening All

A day late.... the Greeks arrive when they feel like arriving ! But your right Dougster it's a big day.

I have flipped ( but then Nicki thought I had flipped years ago......) It was a day with a little stress but it went fantastic.

Jacques I blame you !!! I have created a monster BUT a beautiful monster the lines are amazing and yes I have had a few glasses of beer and will have few more. It is you guys that have got me this far, Dan thanks and all of you who have given me the courage to get this far, bring on the next adventure.

Photos of the big day.

Cheers all

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:00 am
by les2021
Oops

Photos in reverse....

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:56 am
by Jeff
Nice flip!!! Jeff

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:22 pm
by piperdown
Huge milestone! Congrats!! :D

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:23 pm
by Cbuf
nice. Great job.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 2:15 pm
by jacquesmm
Very nice and worth a couple of beers or wine to celebrate. To hire a tow truck with a small carne like you did is what I recommend. Cheaper than a full fledged crane and more than sufficient because the hull is still very light.
Cover that inside foam now.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 2:49 pm
by Fuzz
Out standing! And yes that is one sexy looking beast :D

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:59 pm
by fallguy1000
You might reconsider the cradle height.

The measure of work is weight times distance up; so f you are going up all the time to get into and out of the boat; it would pay off quite a bit to bring her down to the ground more.

Even something simple like setting paint or a bucket onto a staging table in the hull will be a ladder climb.

Advice from a guy with stairs into the boat...

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:49 am
by les2021
Jeff / Jacques / Fuzz / Piperdown / Cbuf / Fallguy

Many thanks for the kind words.

Can't wait to get started on the next phase. It means more questions though :lol: :lol: :lol:

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:00 am
by fallguy1000
Glad the flip went well for you. I did not know you were gonna use a hook. This was wise.

You took out the forms. I would recommend you put some spanners across where you know the dimensions of the old forms. You be the judge, but across the middle; it may or may not be floppy and move in or out on you. If the boat moves out; it can create a hook in the bottom. With the skeg, it may not much, but something to avoid.

All the best.

I made a staircase to get into my boat. But you also have the engine to lift up and over..
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Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:56 pm
by Fuzz
Like Dan said keeping the boat low will save you a ton of work over the life of the build. I have given thought to cutting a door in the hull I am working on now for just this reason.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:17 am
by les2021
Morning Dan / Fuzz

I can't really do much about the height I have only 150mm clearance under the prop so don't really want to drop anymore.

My plan was to do exactly what you have done Dan build a staircase, but I also thought I would raise up my whole working area so as to create like a mezzanine level. This would not be to bad as my work area is pretty small anyway. This could then stay up for the whole of the internal works.

I am having a couple of days off and then will start with checking and fitting spacers like you said Dan, inside is very clean so not much work to do before glassing the inside.

Interesting thought about cutting a door Fuzz... not sure if Jacques wouldn't shoot me if I did that :lol:

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:23 am
by fallguy1000
You won't need to prop that now, and ought not, but is you only have 6" clearance to the shaft; changing the cradles won't help much.

Any door on the boat would be in the transom only. And could be done, but now would be the time.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:09 am
by OrangeQuest
les2021 wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:17 am Morning Dan / Fuzz

I can't really do much about the height I have only 150mm clearance under the prop so don't really want to drop anymore.

My plan was to do exactly what you have done Dan build a staircase, but I also thought I would raise up my whole working area so as to create like a mezzanine level. This would not be to bad as my work area is pretty small anyway. This could then stay up for the whole of the internal works.

Cheers

Les
Having a teenager apprentice would be handy too. Could get one from the local school as an intern (no pay) to learn how to use tools and boat works. They do all the "go for" stuff, so you don't have to climb in and out so much. And if you find a hard working one, they are like the energizer bunny when it comes to working.

I have a crew of 5 that came to me, they are paid employees, and they love to work. But if they don't have anything to do they still get on the phones to text or shoot TikTok videos of them dancing. I will take the dancing and texting but working hard over what most teenagers do now days.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:15 am
by jacquesmm
I would not cut a door. At this point, the priority is to build that inside skin. Once it is done, you can set up some kind of scaffolding in the hull.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:22 am
by Jaysen
Y'all did catch that Fuzz and les2021 were making a joke about the door? I don't really think anyone, except maybe me, is crazy enough to do something like that.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:28 am
by les2021
Jaysen

You got it right a door would be a stupid thing to do.

In the end I decided to cut a hatch in the bottom so I could put a ladder up through it !!!!

You were right Jacques the down angle and mounts were not as the last drawing. The engine arrives 1st week of March so I can check it out properly then.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:08 am
by fallguy1000
Well, bringing in big fish is hard to do and I always think fishing. I am gonna buy a block and tackle for my boat.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 12:14 pm
by TomW1
les do not put a hole in the hull it is an integral unit and has immense pressure on it when at speed. You have cut the plywood which is the core of these boats. With the glass you will need you will have a bump on the bottom. Build a fish door in the transom, there are instructions in the help section.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:33 pm
by Fuzz
I was only half joking about cutting a door in the hull. It is done all the time in larger steel and solid glass boats. But with our style of building there are too many risks to make it worth while. Very good ideas are the building of a nice set of stairs. You are going to use them a ton so it is worth the time to build a good set. Same goes for building a mezzanine. Flat storage outside the hull will make your life much better. Take the time to do it now and you will thank yourself every day afterwards :wink:

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:01 am
by les2021
Morning Guys

Finally back at it.... Spent the last week adjusting the workshop. Got the guy down at the fabricators to make me new legs for the workshop so I have raised it up 600mm this has made a lot of difference . Now have a working platform all the way around the boat and a staircase. Nicki says is that the staircase to heaven !!! I think she may have been taking the _ _ _ _......
The only slight problem is my work bench is now outside as the workshop is what I would call compact !!! :lol:
I have now trimmed the shear line and sanded and faired the inside ready for tabbing and laminating which I will hopefully get finished this coming week.
Engine arrives on Wednesday so I can check all the engine mount dims and make a dummy up ready for setting the stringers out.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:15 am
by fallguy1000
You won't recognize the benefits of that staircase because you didn't ladder in an out 60 times a day, but its wise money.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:06 pm
by Fuzz
Stairs are high enough you might want to put a quick hand rail on them. You will be making a million trips up them with stuff in your hands. Like FG said building the stairs is one of the best things you could have done. And I see walk ways around the rest of the hull, great move! Having a place outside the hull to set stuff you can easily reach is wonderful. Not having the hull full of crap that is always in the way is a major time saver.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:51 pm
by fallguy1000
Yeah. You need a handrail. Super easy. Two uprights and turn a 2x4 on edge. I put a rail all the way around my upper landing as well. Nothing fancy, just to prevent a fall. It is about 5'6" high and a fall would mean a broken arm. Break and arm and the build goes on major hold.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:49 am
by les2021
Evening Guys

Thanks Dan / Fuzz
The photo was taken before I put the hand rail up, I had already put the posts up on the sides but not the rail, thought it would be wise after an end of day beer or two.... It is working well and makes life so much easier.
Managed to get the port side glassed inside, I have to say I found it really exhausting on my own 8.5m rolls of glass are not easy to handle and lay out even when they are already cut to shape and size, really getting old.... had a day off today back at it tomorrow.
Question.... Can I cut the cloth in to 4.5m lengths and lap them in the middle ?

Jacques I should be starting the stringers next week so have attached a drawing. I have looked at your posts and attachments regarding engine mounts etc all seems ok, the engine arrives tomorrow so can double check mounts etc. I have a question !!!!

I think you mentioned using HD 200 for the stringers at the engine point ? Is this just over the length of the engine ? Let me know if there is anything else I need to consider.

Thanks

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:16 am
by jacquesmm
For the HD inserts or core, I would make them longer. They should extend in front and behind the mounts, about 50 cm. In the rear, that will mean all the way to the stern.
Let's wait until you have the engine.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:54 pm
by Fuzz
If you are asking if you can lap the glass in the keel area the answer is yes. That will make things even stranger plus you do not have the fairing worries like on the outside.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:05 pm
by jacquesmm
Fuzz wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:54 pm If you are asking if you can lap the glass in the keel area the answer is yes. That will make things even stranger plus you do not have the fairing worries like on the outside.
I missed that but you must overlap the glass, always, on all edges.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:29 pm
by fallguy1000
Always best to layup the full length.

Otherwise you'll have a 2" overlap to deal with.

A strategy to reduce stress is to roll as you go. Dryfit the fabric and mark lengthwise on the hull and fabric for stretch.

Roll some epoxy onto the hull and roll the fabric off a tube just short of the wetted area. Finish the wetout fully and then make a new batch of epoxy and continue same. You will use more epoxy this way, but not much and reduces stress a bunch as you don't worry about a large batch kicking off.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:14 am
by les2021
Morning

Cheers for the latest replies guys.

Jacques a question. Would it be possibly structurally to move frames A and frame C 200m towards the bow, this may mean moving frame B as well.
It's just the extra cabin space would be good.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:52 am
by jacquesmm
Above the sole: yes but not the floor frames, not the ones under the sole and under the bunk.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:20 am
by les2021
Morning

Thanks Jacques.

I have attached a drawing below to make sure I am understanding correct !!! let me know if I have got it wrong...

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 6:24 am
by fallguy1000
Isn't that gonna muck up the anchor locker?

Or the sleeping berth?

I didn't take the time to pull the drawings. I believe your drawing is correct, but had to ask you those two questions.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:12 am
by jacquesmm
Yes. The anchor locker will be difficult to reach or to clean. The vee berth will be very narrow at the foot. Structurally it is fine but not practical.
Do a cardboard mock up if you can.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:54 am
by les2021
Hi

Jacques / Dan

I am taking it the anchor locker will be self draining ? Or can be. It will still be approx 1200mm wide and 500mm to the bow, I will drop the anchor floor down slightly to help.

These are just ideas so when I actually come to that part of the build I know what I am allowed. Regarding the narrow vee berth at the bow, I thought if I raise the height of the bunks by about 100mm this should go somewhere to help and not be that noticeable.

I will thought mock this all up and see how I feel about it.

Many thanks for the quick response.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:02 am
by jacquesmm
I already raised the berth as high as possible. Take the mattress thickness in account.
For the chain locker, don't forget access if the chain ever gets stuck. Chain needs a lot for room to coil and uncoil.
The cardboard mock up will tell you what is possible.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:55 am
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:54 am Hi

Jacques / Dan

I am taking it the anchor locker will be self draining ? Or can be. It will still be approx 1200mm wide and 500mm to the bow, I will drop the anchor floor down slightly to help.

These are just ideas so when I actually come to that part of the build I know what I am allowed. Regarding the narrow vee berth at the bow, I thought if I raise the height of the bunks by about 100mm this should go somewhere to help and not be that noticeable.

I will thought mock this all up and see how I feel about it.

Many thanks for the quick response.

Cheers

Les
JM good advice.

I did a lot of mocking up for my build. Sometimes even plywood to sit on benches, etc.

As for the locker, you can drain any locker overboard with a thru hull. Anchor lockers really can use good ventilation. I am going to need to put a couple of 1" thru hulls or a solar vent or both on mine...one of the 4000 things on the to do.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:53 pm
by TomW1
Like fg said angle the floor of the anchor lo the stern and a thru hull, they cover with a clam shell vent so that water cannot enter the thru hull.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:31 am
by les2021
Morning All

Cheers Dan / Tom / Jacques

I have just mocked up the anchor chamber all seems fine to me. Will definitely slope the chamber floor back as mentioned and will thru hull with cover.

I will mock up the cabin over the next week and see what is possible. The reason for looking into possibilities of enlarging the cabin is it would help suit our plans, Nicki and I would like to spend two weeks maybe longer periods on the beast, so a wash facility in the head would be good along with a fridge in the galley area, the extra 200mm would help. If it compromises the cabin then it will be scrapped.

I not trying to be a pain Jacques just seeing if I can tweak it a little to help.

The weather in Crete is freaky the coldest since we have been here, so no glassing as the temperature is only 4 degrees. So I am working on the electric layout and learning another part of the build, I may have worked on the building for 35 years and know a little about house wiring but this is new.... I will post a drawing of my ideas and what I have learnt and then wait for the flood of post saying NO NO NO !!!

Just to say to all you builders as mentioned before I love following the other threads but not sure what I can add apart from I am lucky to be apart of it all.

Dan, A mate once said to me the to do list on a boat stops the day you sell it !!!!

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:53 am
by fallguy1000
I am almost done wiring my boat, so can help a bit for sure, but need drawings.

I put my cooktop over my fridge to save space in the galley.

You may have to make a wet head. Mine is dry, but about 72" wide.

The anchor locker needs to be fairly deep if you want a windlass. What seems deep may not be.

If you are raising up the bed; be careful about head banging; you would not like it. You can always raise up the helm station. Your boat has a few degrees of variability. A step in the deck could even allow a slit of light, for example. Boats are a bit artistic at this stage.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:36 am
by les2021
Evening

Farther Christmas came late this year.... Anyone know what to do with it !!!

Really chuffed it looks amazing is all I have to do now is make it work :lol:

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:39 am
by fallguy1000
Very exciting business.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:43 am
by jacquesmm
The top of the crate gives you the location of the mounts, it's a template. Add a fake rear coupling and you have it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 3:00 pm
by Fuzz
I am sure it is some place in this thread but tell us more about the engine and tranny. It is a very nice looking package.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 3:28 pm
by jacquesmm
The engine is the one on the plans: Nanni diesel 6 cyl. based on the Toyota block, same as Yanmar 6 cyl.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:19 pm
by TomW1
Beautiful :D :D

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:35 am
by les2021
Jacques

No such luck will have to make my own template.... Before I go mad on Stringers ! on the drawing your stringer depth looks like about 155mm I have drawn mine at about 220mm will this cause any problems. Is there anything else I should know before I get started ? The Installation guide shows 3 wing like supports on the outer side of the stringer where the engine sits spaced at 500mm apart. Do I need these ?

Dan we discussed the main frames sometime ago but I can not find the thread. I have cut out loads of foam tapered bulk head pads ready to go against the hull to take the frames, but I seem to remember something about a 3mm gap all around between pads and frames. Was I dreaming ?

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:29 am
by fallguy1000
You never want to squeeze bulkheads into location. It puts a hump on the hull that NEVER goes away. So, there must always be a gap between the bulkhead and the place it is to be glued.

3mm is a general idea, but 1mm is okay, minus 1mm is very bad

in a foam boat; the foam bulkhead or frame can bend some, too, but make sure you are not pressing on the hull

i really like to use spot hot glue here; it is fast and you can leave it in

So, epoxy bond the pads, leave a gap and hotglue the panels, fill with epoxy putty and fillet and tape the same day and this is a no sand primary bond; best way to fly and the tapes bed better. Or skip the pads if you want to work faster.

Padding is really a requirement for frp and others..not as needed in foam. Do a few with pads and a few without to get a feel for it. Padding will reduce the possibility of seeing the bulkhead through the hull, but done right should not even with no pads. You could skip pads on the hull bottom, for example.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:48 am
by jacquesmm
For bulkheads, I prefer pads even in foam sandwich. It spreads the loads and makes building the tabbing (taping) easier. You will never print a bulkhead with a pad.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:02 pm
by jacquesmm
For the engine beds, the engine notes show two methods just as I described: lag bolts or L channel. You choose.
I find their engine bed thickness too small, I''ll go for 50 mm minimum, 100 mm is not excessive especially if they are 220 mm high, bigger and longer is better. Big and long engine engine beds (= stringers) will do a better job of absorbing vibrations.

PS: I will be travelling starting next week until mid April. My replies will be delayed if I can't find good internet access.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 3:16 am
by les2021
Cheers Jacques / Dan

Slightly confused !!! ( nothing unusual there )

Jacques the foam sandwich method of fixing bulkheads using tapered foam pads is the one I was planning to use and I have already cut them out. You do not show a 3mm gap between the foam bulkhead and the pad as mentioned by Dan.
Dan what is the purpose of the gap if you then fill it solid ?

You know know me with my questions, just want to get it right in my head before I start.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 3:57 am
by les2021
Back again

Forgot to ask.

With main frames can I use off cuts of cloth providing I overlap. As there would be a lot of waste using full width sheets.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:14 am
by fallguy1000
It does not need to be 3mm, 1.5 is fine. But pressing the bulkhead in is a major, permanent cosmetic error.

You NEVER press a bulkhead into the padding or side of the hull because it will print through the hull. Padding reduces printing, but won't eliminate it if severe pressure is applied from the bulkhead.

Here is a picture of printing.
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A gap also allows epoxy putty to fill the gap which results in a better bond. The gap is not left if that was your confusion.

In your case, you will glue on the pads with thickened epoxy, tape over them to hold and wait a day. Return with bulkheads and a small gap around them to the padding. Hot glue them to hold them, fill the gap woth epoxy putty, fillet the padding as needed, and tab the bulkheads in.

If you oversize the bulkheads and jam them into place; you get printing. They will show through in your final paint work like the Stanger I posted above. It is an easy error for a rookie to make because he thinks it is convenient as the bulkheads are held by pressure before tabbing, but is a fatal error.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:46 am
by jacquesmm
Thank you Fallguy.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:45 am
by les2021
Thanks Guys

What was the answer to using off cuts of cloth with overlaps on the main frames ?

Have a good trip Jacques, will try not to bother you :lol:

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:51 am
by jacquesmm
Any overlap is good.
For the frames and bulkheads, I like to have one layer on them flat, to help with some stiffness then apply all other layers with the frame in place and overlap. This is important for all the floor frames. Everything under the sole (floor) should have strong overlaps.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:59 pm
by Fuzz
Just wondering are you planning on mounting the engine on top of the stringers or in between them?

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:29 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

Fuzz I forgot to give you the engine spec so I have attached details it is fitted with a TTM 40A, wish I knew more about engines, My dad was a mechanic all his life, he used to take my brother and my car engines out and rebuild them in a day and turn the key and away they went. ( I know very little )

Now about your latest question.... HELP I have now measured the engine, mounting brackets clearance etc. I have attached my latest drawing with accurate engine measurements, as you will see I only have 10mm at the stern of the engine between mounting brackets and engine. So Option B is straight forward.... BUT what do you fix it down with ? it will be into Corecell M200 high density and more to the point is this a good safe option ( strong ) Option A is good as you can pivot the S/S angle when aligning the engine.

The reason for making the stringers slightly deeper is to get clearance under the engine to get a drip tray in, I get about 90mm with this height.

So basically I need advice.

The other thing to consider is the fuel tanks, the stringers will go back to just two layers of M200 in this section, option A will make the centre tank wider than the plans, narrower on the two outer tanks, option B makes them more equal.

Need to get this one right as moving them would create a lot of bad language :x

Over to you guys....
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:32 am
by les2021
Oops

Cheers Dan for clearing up the frame to hull question.

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:41 am
by fallguy1000
M200 is insufficient. More to follow. I am away from the plans, and I don't want to make JM mad. The way I would do it is to make a template with 3/4" plywood to match engine bolts.

Then build with M200. Then drill out and used threaded knurled inserts and waxed bolts and bed the knurled inserts into epoxy putty with bolts covered in wax. After 12 hours, remove the bolts to avoid them curing in.

Please allow JM to respond; he may have an alternative. The M200 is strong, but easy to strip out.

The knurled inserts should be bronze.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:56 am
by jacquesmm
Yes, M200 is not dense enough for lag bolts.

Option B is too tight.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:57 am
by les2021
Hi Jacques

Sorry if I am being a bit slow here.... are you saying go for option A. S/S angle ?

Thanks

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:54 pm
by jacquesmm
Yes.
The mount bolts are too close to the transmission. Are you certain of those dimensions? If yes, I would certainly go for the L bracket. Imagine how difficult it will be to reach the bottom of the oil pan in case you need it. I suppose you have an oil change pump but still, I like better access there.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:00 pm
by Fuzz
First I do not have your boats plans and second I have never seen one like it so this is just general boat comments.
I have owned a few diesel inboard boats and been around a ton of them. All the glass boats have had the engine sitting between the stringers. I would want to through bolt the stringers with angle iron to support the engine. I would never trust lag bolts over time. That is not too heavy of engine so the mounting angle does not need to be real heavy.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:13 pm
by les2021
Evening Guys

Well all was going well until today....
Glassed the hull inside, cut and first fitted the structural frames, removed them ready to to build the stringers and engine mounts.
Built a mock engine and then started to check engine angle and line etc so as to decide on stringer height.....
Then spent the next 4 hours checking every measurement from every angle and still can not work out what was wrong. Basically it looks like my shaft log is 100mm forward of what it should be. BUT I can not find the fault which is very frustrating all measurement, angles seem fine.

So the question I need advice on are as follows.

If the engine is 100mm forward will it affect balance.
The drawing shows about 200mm between the stuffing box and the coupling plate can I reduce this to 100mm. ( the supplier says that will not be a problem )

The thought of moving the shaft tube does not bear thinking about....

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:14 pm
by les2021
Sorry Jacques

That was asking you for advice.

Hope your trip is going well.

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:17 pm
by fallguy1000
Fuzz wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:00 pm First I do not have your boats plans and second I have never seen one like it so this is just general boat comments.
I have owned a few diesel inboard boats and been around a ton of them. All the glass boats have had the engine sitting between the stringers. I would want to through bolt the stringers with angle iron to support the engine. I would never trust lag bolts over time. That is not too heavy of engine so the mounting angle does not need to be real heavy.
Certainly a lot easier than threaded inserts as long as you locate engine stringers to allow for the angles. The m200 might need some overbores for the angle connections. Were you thinking the angle is bolted to the side and so the engine stringers are wider than the engine mounts?

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:18 pm
by fallguy1000
Jacques-you are needed on this thread for Les's questions.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:46 pm
by les2021
Dan

This is the design I am now working to. I have measured the engine and made a mock up. Apart from the shaft log issue it all works well.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:47 pm
by les2021
Oops
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Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:02 pm
by fallguy1000
Engine weight?

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:26 pm
by fallguy1000
Assuming an engine weight of 771 pounds, a 4" error is 4/12*771 or a 257 foot pound moment forward. Or 350kg • 0.1m or 35kgm,

This moment can be offset by placing an offsetting weight aft. If we assume the center of mass of the boat is say 3m from aft, placing a 12 kg mass near the transom would be offsetting. This would not be done until the boat is sea trialed.

35kgm moment forward
35kgm moment aft @ 2.95m = 11.86kg

I cannot speak on the engine mods, but this is how to tweak the engine mass issue, based on my crude assumptions.

It can be done with lead or 12 bottles of wine or so..

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:30 am
by fallguy1000
Jacques-you available? Les has a question about engine stuff a day or two back.. And I buried the question twice now! so am mentioning it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:27 pm
by jacquesmm
Sorry but I had no internet access yesterday.
First, the engine mounts: your drawing looks fine.

Shaft log:
I don't know where that difference in the shaft log position or length come from but to move the engine forward 100 mm will not make a noticeable difference.
It may not be necessary, you can also trim the shaft log. I don't see any picture and may not understand the problem. Can you please post a picture of the shaft log inside the hull?
The shaft log has to be long enough to allow the stuffing box or shaft seal hose to fit over it. It does not have to stick out more than that. During the design, I locate the engine and shaft first not only for weight but also for clearance all around: will the bell housing fit or be too close to the bottom? Will the oil pan be high enough to reach the drain plug etc. ? Do I want a oil change tray under it? Once I get the engine and prop where I want and at the proper angle, I draw the shaft log, not the other way around.
You do not want the coupling to be too close to the stuffing box. You need some space to change the stuffing or, if you use a friction ring, you want enough room to change it without pulling the engine. Think that you need sufficient space to slide the shaft back and pull the coupling, let's say 10 cm between coupling and end of stuffing box or shaft seal.

Engine location: if you have to move it forward (may be not) consider what happens at the top. Will it fit under the sole? Is it not too close to a bulkhead: you need access to the water pump, it's in the front on that engine.

Post a picture of the shaft log please, maybe with your engine template.

I may not reply right away. I am in a region that was affected by tornadoes a few days ago and the internet is spotty. The weather forecast for tonight includes more tornadoes. I am in a safe place but the internet may go down.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:58 am
by les2021
Jacques / Dan

Apologise for the slow response, we have had no internet on the island since Thursday.

Please see engine mock up pic attached, it leaves about 50mm clearance under the engine at the coupling end, the top of the ply is the engine. The position of the engine on my mock up leaves 100mm between the the stuffing box and the coupling.

Another question.... once the stringers, main frames are in how do you treat the hull ? most boats look like they have had a coat of paint ?

Cheers

Les

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:16 pm
by fallguy1000
Yeah, you want certain areas to be ez to clean. I recommend a minimal fairing effort in lockers you want to wipe clean. It need not be perfect, but you also don't want to cut your hand or rags cleaning an oil spill, for example.

So sand with 40-60 grit and fair one time lightly if needed and sand one more.

For bilge paint, oil based enamels are my preference. But pre catalyzed water based epoxies are also great.

Bilge paints tend to dry poorly after application. They sit in a locker or low spot and the fumes or moisture from waterbornes sits above the paint and the next day when you want to work; the damn stuff is still wet. So, use a fan to move air after painting.

Do NOT paint any areas that will get epoxy putty or tabbing. None of my watertights were painted inside. A few lockers were and some were not. I expect the lockers may need it later. Enclosed bilge spaces don't need it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:46 pm
by Fuzz
Not sure what you have planned for the shaft stuffing box but you are going to need a couple feet between the end of the shaft log and the tranny coupling. Make sure you have working room and access or you will hate yourself later.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:23 pm
by jacquesmm
I agree with Fuzz, you need room there. Maybe not a couple of feet but as I wrote before, enough to slide that stuffing box/shaft seal on the tube, repack when needed, change the coupling etc.
I would say at least 6" of shaft, maybe more. a couple of feet as Fuzz say is probably from where the tube sticks outs to the coupling but before we discuss dimensions, are you certain that template is correct? It looks very wide at the bottom.
If yes, you should slide the engine forward. I don't see enough clearance in case you have to move sideways during the alignment but that is because the bottom is so wide. I don't have the Nanni diesel of drawings here but that oil pan is not that wide, neither is that transmission.

I'll be back in my office next week and will draw a sketch to ask for dimensions. For example, when you put your finger under the tube and slide it back to where it touches the hull, what is the distance from there to the end of the tube? We may be limited by the width at the bottom but that tube looks quite long.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:54 pm
by Fuzz
I was thinking if a stuffing box like this were used. https://retmarine.com/shop/self-alignin ... -sa-series
Of course they make other styles like drip-less or bulkhead solid mount and they will be different lengths. Might be best to have the stuffing box in hand before locking the other parts in place.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:08 am
by jacquesmm
Fuzz wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:54 pm Might be best to have the stuffing box in hand before locking the other parts in place.
Yes.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:30 am
by les2021
Thanks

Jacques / Dan / Fuzz

I have nearly completed the stringers, once I have these rapped up I will measure the engine again and try and get it as accurate as I can. I will then check it against my mock up.

Jacques I will do a quick drawing and ask you if thats ok to add some measurements regarding the position of the shat log. I can then check and try and find out where the problem is.

The stuffing box recommended by the engine supplier is the one attached.

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:43 pm
by Fuzz
That seal will be about a foot long. I am sure the data sheet will tell you how long it will be. You also need to know the id of the rubber bellows. You might have to adjust the od of your shaft log to get a good fit.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:01 am
by les2021
Afternoon All

Jacques some info for when you get back on dry land.

Today I decided to go through the whole set up for the shaft log again.... when I pull the line through the log it does show that I got it wrong somewhere which is really frustrating as I checked and checked again when setting it up. The line is parallel through the tube showing the angle is right ! the only problem is it is about 5mm from the inside top of tube which backs up my earlier posts that I have slipped about a 100mm forward.
To re core drill a new tube would be a pain as it is so close to the existing tube. Your thoughts please....

I also re measured the engine and made the mock up to match the bottom of the transmission and the sump. I clamped a couple of timbers to the stringers taking the place of the angle steels. The timbers are at 8 degrees which I think if I have read it right is good and correct, if I cut the shaft log back to the line marked it would give me 100mm from the stuffing box which is 225mm to the transmission this the supplier says is OK !!!

In this position I get around 900mm to the cabin door, frame D. which I am fine with ( but then I am easily pleased :lol: )

Anyway let me know what you think and how I should proceed.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:29 pm
by fallguy1000
I am not going to recommend. I can tell you how I'd go about the remodel.

There is no reason to make life impossible, the foam core is easily repaired. Use an oscillating tool with a carbide head and start on the inside. Cut out the entire section in the vertical plane. Do not attempt to cut it out on an angle. From the inside, cut each side and from the outside each side and finish the cuts on the ends from the accessible sides. Done right; you'd have a square piece of perhaps 2-3" wide by 12-18" long. It should take 30 minutes to an hour.

Taking the removed piece out and cleaning it up another hour.

Remove enough material around the hole by taper grinding to do a 2" overlap of all glass and all cores. For the skeg, same, cut it back to allow some overlaps. If it is a stack; remove 2" each way of the outer core and leave some room for putty.

In one day, you should be able to remove and replace the hull cores and hull laminates. The second day; the skeg repair. Using some screws and a helper; temp screw or perm screw the new skeg parts in place with epoxy putties. If you dry prep a radius, you would be able to apply laminates the same day. A bit tricky from the bottom side. I usually hot tack the repair by letting neat coat of epoxy go a bit past the kick time, then the next piece of glass sticks real well.

About two-three days gets you close to back to pre-hole..

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:22 am
by jacquesmm
Did you cut the stern tube? Is there enough room to slide the shaft seal over it and use minimum two hose clamps? What is the distance between the end of the tube and the coupling? You need at least 15 cm depending on the model, maybe 30 as Fuzz wrote. It's the compressed length than matters. You must be able to slide it on and off.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:13 am
by les2021
Hi Jacques

The tube is not cut yet. The seal I am planning to use is the one on my posts about 5-6 back it is about 209mm long compressed and the clamps look as they only go over the log by about 30-40mm to secure the clamps. In it's current position I can get around 130mm from seal to coupling, as mentioned the engine supplier says this is enough ( but he would !!! ) In this position I have about 850mm to frame D.

As I mentioned in my last post I have reset the jig up to check the position of the shaft log, it is much easier and more accurate with the hull the right way up. My string line is parallel but 5mm from the inside top of the log showing it needs to go aft, but even if this did go back 100mm I am not sure it is far enough to match the drawings !!!

The main thing is though to make the current situation work without effecting the boat OR move the shaft log :(

The other problem is there are no other threads of LB26 builders to discuss with.

Questions

My engine stringers are spaced further apart to accommodate the engine, so if I then leave 300mm to the outer stringers it means that between frames C and D my stringer height if I keep them 12mm below DWL are only about 60-70mm . Is this ok or can I raise them up above the DWL to get more depth if needed.

Transom Knees

I am going to fit two knees to leave the centre clear for the rudder. My plan is to fit them on the inside of the engine stringers and tab them to the transom and stringers. Is this ok

On the laminating schedule do the knees come under superstructure or stringers and floor frames.

Sorry to be a pain Jacques, I just can not see where the error is, I have measured time and time again.

So work your magic ( please )

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:12 pm
by jacquesmm
les2021 wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:13 am
As I mentioned in my last post I have reset the jig up to check the position of the shaft log, it is much easier and more accurate with the hull the right way up. My string line is parallel but 5mm from the inside top of the log showing it needs to go aft, but even if this did go back 100mm I am not sure it is far enough to match the drawings !!!

The main thing is though to make the current situation work without effecting the boat OR move the shaft log :(
Let's separate the perceived problems. See above: what is the problem with that? You have a shaft axis and the engine location. What is it that does not work?
It sounds fine to me as long as the engine and mounts do not hit the hull.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:17 pm
by jacquesmm
les2021 wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:13 am Questions

My engine stringers are spaced further apart to accommodate the engine, so if I then leave 300mm to the outer stringers it means that between frames C and D my stringer height if I keep them 12mm below DWL are only about 60-70mm . Is this ok or can I raise them up above the DWL to get more depth if needed.
The stringers height is set by the engine mounts, you don't have a choice. The width is set by the mounts also but on a L bracket bolted through those stringers. From the engine drawing, I see enough clearance between the mounts, nothing sticks out.
Can you post the engine drawing as a downloadable file?
Sorry but I do not see where the problem is, it looks fine to me.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:19 pm
by jacquesmm
les2021 wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:13 am
Transom Knees

I am going to fit two knees to leave the centre clear for the rudder. My plan is to fit them on the inside of the engine stringers and tab them to the transom and stringers. Is this ok
OK, that is expected.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:25 pm
by jacquesmm
les2021 wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:13 am
Sorry to be a pain Jacques, I just can not see where the error is, I have measured time and time again.
Sorry but what is the problem we are discussing?
At first, I though it was insufficient clearance either the oil pan or the bell housing but now that I see the new or corrected template, it looks OK.
What is it that does not fit?

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:15 pm
by Fuzz
From the pictures things look pretty good to me. Is the problem you do not have enough height from the shaft to line up with the engine? If so making the shaft longer and moving the engine a little forward will make things taller. As I am not sure of the problem I am only guessing. Please let JM give you the answer and not one of us who are just guessing.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:19 pm
by jacquesmm
I am guessing too Fuzz.
Let's wait for les reply, he is 7 hours behind of me and 11 for you.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:22 pm
by fallguy1000
jacquesmm wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:17 pm
les2021 wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:13 am Questions

My engine stringers are spaced further apart to accommodate the engine, so if I then leave 300mm to the outer stringers it means that between frames C and D my stringer height if I keep them 12mm below DWL are only about 60-70mm . Is this ok or can I raise them up above the DWL to get more depth if needed.
The stringers height is set by the engine mounts, you don't have a choice. The width is set by the mounts also but on a L bracket bolted through those stringers. From the engine drawing, I see enough clearance between the mounts, nothing sticks out.
Can you post the engine drawing as a downloadable file?
Sorry but I do not see where the problem is, it looks fine to me.
Les-you and me are a lot alike. Sometimes too precise...it can be good.

I am going to stay out unless I can add value.

For this type of question; you need to offer a sketch because it is so hard sometimes to comprehend. Even a hand sketch no ruler and a picture on paper makes it easier for anyone.

I assume you mean engine stringers, and I think I understand the question.

Moving the engine forward 4" might require longer engine stringers which would mean they are a wee bit lower heightwise forward as the hull rises to the bow. They are only offering a home for the engine supports. I believe you are worried they are structurally deficient due to the lower height forward. This is not the case. They get their strength from tabbing and 60mm is 2"+ and the tabbing should be fine as specified.

All the best. I will try to stay out unless I can help the designer interpret a question.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:58 am
by les2021
After Guys

Jacques / Dan / Fuzz

Dan I will take that last post as a compliment :D

Ok sorry for not making my questions more clearer. I will break them down into individual topics.

1. Engine position and shaft log.

2. Outer stringers.

3. Knee laminating schedule.

4. Frame E ( new question )

1. If you look at my sketch below, if I cut the log off 75mm as it exits the hull this will allow room to clamp the bellows, from exiting the hull the shaft seal is 209mm I then have a gap to the coupling of about 125mm ( is this ok )
If so this will leave me approx 840mm to the cabin entrance / frame D.

2. As I have had to make the engine stringer space wider to accommodate the engine my outer stringers have moved up the hull. This means between frames C - D the stringer height will only be about 75mm ( is this ok ) drawing below...

3. You have confirmed mounting the two knee braces up against the inside of the inner stringers is fine. The other part of my question was laminating them, I can not see them on the schedule. ( My question was do they come under the superstructure or stringers and floor frame schedule. )

4. Frame E shows the floor frame part of the frame going under the engine ? If this is so it cuts off access to the drip tray sump etc. It looks like you have about 230mm of frame is there a minimum incase I can not achieve that ?

Dan sorry for the confusion. The engine stringers have turned out really well and all is ok in that section.

You are right though from years and years of looking at and reading drawings if I see a measurement I try to keep to it. Looks like I need to relax a bit !!!!

Once again cheers for all the patience and help guys.

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:48 am
by jacquesmm
Thanks for the drawings.
Engine location first. Everything else will be decided based on engine location. You have no choice with the engine location.

Does the profile drawing show the engine location that you propose?
It looks good except for one item: the seal to coupling distance.
You should be able to remove the seal without pulling the engine and that means minimum 209 mm plus a small safety margin, let's say 250 mm.
This means that you should move that engine 125 mm forward of what you show, or more. You have the room in the front.
To move forward has advantages: the rear part of the stringer will be higher than the 75 mm you mention and there will be more clearance all around the engine.

Can you check that location first?
We will cover the other question after we decide about the engine location.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:48 am
by les2021
Afternoon Jacques

Thanks for the reply.

I am still a little confused.... The engine is in the position that I think works it has a good distance between the cabin entrance and a good clearance under the sump.

The bit that I am confused about is removing the seal without pulling the engine. My understanding is as follows

The bellows only goes over the stern tube by about 75mm, so to remove it I need to slide it forward 75mm, I have about 125mm to the coupling so removing the seal would be ok ( have I missed something ) If I have to moving the engine forward another 50 -100mm it would be ok but I do not want to cramp the entrance to the cabin.

The 75mm stringer question is on the outer stringer not the engine stringer.

Once again thanks for your patience on this one.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:04 am
by jacquesmm
The distance between the engine coupling and the end of the fiberglass tube must be longer than the length of the compressed shaft seal.
If you can take that shaft seal out in several pieces, that distance has to to be longer than the longest piece. Give it a couple cm for safety.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:28 pm
by Fuzz
You will also need room to install the shaft coupling unless you plan on installing it before you set the engine. Sooner or later you will need to work on the shaft seal and you do not want to have to move the engine forward to have room to pull the coupling and reinstall it. Getting a shaft coupling off can turn into a major fight! Been there and done that :help:

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:02 pm
by jacquesmm
Yes to what Fuzz says. I assumed that the shaft seal can be compressed enough to pull the coupling but that is not always the case. Include the length of the coupling in that distance.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:40 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Once again thanks for the input Jacques / Fuzz.

Ok I think I am all clued up regarding the engine / shaft seal / coupling issue. I have ordered the seal so I can have a good look and make sure all is ok.

If necessary I will move the engine forward a little. The main thing Jacques is that you are happy with the engine position weight wise ?

Can you come back to me on the other questions.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:16 am
by jacquesmm
No problem with the engine weight.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:52 am
by les2021
Thanks Jacques

You you give advice on the other questions.

3. You have confirmed mounting the two knee braces up against the inside of the inner stringers is fine. The other part of my question was laminating them, I can not see them on the schedule. ( My question was do they come under the superstructure or stringers and floor frame schedule. )

4. Frame E shows the floor frame part of the frame going under the engine ? If this is so it cuts off access to the drip tray sump etc. It looks like you have about 230mm of frame is there a minimum incase I can not achieve that ?

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:42 am
by jacquesmm
Transom braces: same as frames.
Floor frame under engine: skip it but add one or several layers of glass in that box.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:38 pm
by les2021
Evening Guys

Happy Easter ( Greek Easter !!! )

Thought it was time for another question.....

What is the right way to treat the anchor locker ? Fair, sand and paint ? just sand and paint ?

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:01 pm
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:38 pm Evening Guys

Happy Easter ( Greek Easter !!! )

Thought it was time for another question.....

What is the right way to treat the anchor locker ? Fair, sand and paint ? just sand and paint ?

Cheers

Les
Christos Anesti! I am Orthodox, Les.

Sand, paint. Put a mat of some kind in the bottom to prevent delam. Dropping stuff is hard on laminates, even just chain, but also if you plan to home locker there..

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 9:41 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

Apologise for the the lack of posting over the last month. Working hard on the boat plus I have been fishing a 5 day competition in Holland....( a couple of beers as well !!! )

The weather here is starting to get hot, very hot so I have been trying to get all the big panels glassed before it is to hot a I have to do these outside. Anyway progress so far, structural frames in and taped ( well nearly ) Sheer clamps fitted, deck glassed and in place, just need to trim the deck to fit the hull and then fix it and tape. Need to finish the anchor locker first though as will not be easy to get in to after the deck is on.

Once again sorry for the lousy photos.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 12:51 pm
by TomW1
les not to worry about the pictures, when i click on them to enlarge them they come out ride side up. You're moving along well on the boat.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 9:10 pm
by fallguy1000
Pictures are great. If you have time and want to, you can go edit the photo on a smartphone and modify the lighting or not and the phone will upload the pics correct orientation. Sometimes I do it; other times I'm too lazy.

Things look good. Cleats are generally supposed to be mechanically fastened with glass tapes. So, rather than a square cleat, a 45 on the bottom and a glass tape is insurance the cleat won't shear off the BH and leave you with a floppy sole there to repair.

Other than that, I see nothing else to remark; the work looks great.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 2:14 am
by les2021
Morning All

Cheers Dan / Tom

A little chaotic here daughter, husband and two grand kids ( 8 + 4 ) waring me out for a weeks holiday from the UK....

Dan the picture does not really show it but the sheer clamps are cut back at 45% and when the deck is trimmed and fitted I will tape both sides.

Will hopefully be back in the boat shed on Thursday !!!

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 5:04 am
by fallguy1000
Is it hot there now?

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 7:04 am
by les2021
Dan

Getting very hot now, especially for this time of year it has been well over 30% the past week. Looks like it may cool for a week or so, I will try and get some long hours in glassing the cockpit floor and fitting the deck.

June will see a lack of build as the middle son is getting married in the UK. So we are over there for three weeks helping with the arrangements.

Would like to think I will have time to fit the engine in July, for me this will be a challenge 3000kg’s is not an easy thing to throw around, bless them the Greek guys from my local fabrication works are going to make me a gantry and give me a hand on the hoisting day.

Will get back to boat thinking next week and no doubt have questions !!!!

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:20 pm
by les2021
Evening Guys

A couple of quick questions..... Jacques / Guys

I have faired and fixed the deck to the hull. Do I need to sand the hull back to glass or can I tape to the Gurit fairing compound.

I have now glued the Sole / Floor boards together and fitted the floor ready to remove and glass, the spec says 1 layer of glass top and bottom. On the outside edge the span from bulk head to bulk head is quite large, the engine section is over 1.4m apart, aft the outside corners / edges are unsupported, see really bad sketch..... I know these are taped to the side panels but with people jumping from deck there will quite a large force on the ( from what I can see tape only strength. )

Any thoughts guys ?

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:07 pm
by jacquesmm
I prefer to install the framing on the rough glass and fair later. Less delamination risks.

For the supports in your picture, build some braces spaced every 3' or 90 cm max. spacing. The exact shape is irrelevant. Some people like to shape them as fishing rod holders, others us them to make storage bins, you decide.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:33 am
by fallguy1000
Les,

I only pre-fair when I feel the substrate is too poor for full adhesion of glass. So, sometimes.. not the answer you like, but if you are gonna have air, then pre-fair.

As for the spans. Those spans are only going to work with 1 inch cores and 40 oz glass bottom and 25 oz top or so. I made I beams for my boat. Anytime my spans were over about 26".

The way I made them....

Take three pieces of laminated core 1.5" by 12mm thick. Or so. Glue them together with epoxy putty and a screw so one piece makes the middle of the I and the other makes the top and bottom. Then fillet and tape with like a 2-2.5" glass tape of say db1700. Then same other side. I wasn't in a rush, so made them over two days to avoid drippy mess. Then set them on cleats that are well epoxied to the bulkheads or hull and tape them on with a small fillet and tape or jist the tape. Ultralight and super strong. I had scraps, though.

No laminated junk? You can use a piece of 3/4" wood and just glass each side woth 600/225 or 600g tape. It can be whatever width, but hardwood and no knots. The glass will keep it from cracking under any wild dynamic loading,

When you glue the sole on; these are good and wide and really stiffen things up.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:48 am
by pee wee
I may be misreading things, but maybe the answer to supporting the deck spans includes cleats glued to the hull side, as well as tape along the top as mentioned.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:20 am
by fallguy1000
pee wee wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:48 am I may be misreading things, but maybe the answer to supporting the deck spans includes cleats glued to the hull side, as well as tape along the top as mentioned.
Spans of a meter are simply too great and sag. He is cleating..

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:27 am
by jacquesmm
It depends. Fort example, a 8" wide (20 cm) side deck along the cockpit, with braces spaced 1 meter, will flex exceedingly but the same side deck with and integral coaming will be very stiff and you could walk on it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:42 am
by pee wee
fallguy1000 wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:20 am
pee wee wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:48 am I may be misreading things, but maybe the answer to supporting the deck spans includes cleats glued to the hull side, as well as tape along the top as mentioned.
He is cleating..
les2021 wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:20 pm On the outside edge the span from bulk head to bulk head is quite large, the engine section is over 1.4m apart, aft the outside corners / edges are unsupported, I know these are taped to the side panels but with people jumping from deck there will quite a large force on the ( from what I can see tape only strength. )
That's what makes me question it. The photo on the last page shows one cleat on the rear cabin bulkhead, no others. Maybe he is cleating, I just don't see the evidence.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:56 am
by fallguy1000
Okay, I see your point Hank.

Here is a picture of my core i beams. A higher vertical section would be better, but I had no space. This one is not taped. Looks like I hotglued it together not screws or putty, so the fillet and tape does all the work.
9B5F3335-B06C-417A-8C8C-EA97368D1111.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:13 am
by les2021
Morning Guys

Thanks Dan / Jacques ? Pee Wee

Nice I beam Dan ( bet they are a night mare to tape ! )

I have attached a sketch with what I think you are suggesting, let me know if I have got it right and how many I need.

I have also attached some photos of the deck - hull joint, this relates to my earlier question re taping and fairing back to glass or just fairing compound. Let me know your thoughts....

Cheers

Les
8970C5DE-F076-440A-A3E2-C99EF149A168.jpeg
17273CD5-AE1A-46B4-9967-AAA853071A56.jpeg
30CC33FD-5721-4C26-92CF-7FA4B210E3D0.jpeg
3AAE6C11-4DFD-4007-BF5B-B1A70800645F.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:36 am
by fallguy1000
I would think you need to run those sole panels to the hullsides.

The ibeams are transverse members, not longitudinals.

Hoping you did not laminate those sole panels. They look like raw core, so easy to add to..

On the hull edge, you would glue and tab a cleat. Then if you have large spans between the hull and stringer bed, you'd add the beams.

Sorry if I created confusion. Always remember to sketch up questions; it helps us avoid misinterpretation.

Not sure what you have planned, but cabinets or lockers need that extended to the hull.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:48 am
by fallguy1000
You are probably wondering how the heck are they going to fit...

Well, the way I would do it is to install the i beams transverse, so they are under the seams..to get them in span centers or so the sole pieces fit may require some figuring.

Then you laminate and trim the panel bottoms, fit them and glue them down and laminate the top and tab them all around to seal the deck. Bear in mind the hour here is 4am and I am super sleepy, dozing off, so please discuss further before acting on my advice. The building notes I did not review.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:53 am
by fallguy1000
Hullsides
8F2DF3A3-64E2-46D2-B0C4-7BBD37FF09C4.png

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:59 am
by fallguy1000
Can you pull that sole up and take a picture?

I can explain it better. You will need to widen the bulkhead a bit to make it easier to glue and the i beam is only an intermediate for wide spans..

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 3:17 pm
by jacquesmm
The plans are not clear about that, sorry.
The section at frame D shows a line all across as if the cockpit sole extended all the way to the sides but the cockpit sections show a "hanging" cockpit sole.
Each way has pros and cons.
The full sole extending all the way across is strong but requires a bunch of openings in particular for the air intake. the seam between that sole and the sides is a stiffener but with a sandwich side, we don't need that extra stiffening.
The hanging sole provides enough air and gives nice access to all the rigging and plumbing but it should sit on something. Your solution of longitudinal supports is good. Extending the outside stringers is also good and probably easier if it leaves enough access to the sides of the engine. Those supports will need openings for access.
The support beams (pillars) are not bad since they leave a lot of access to all the inside.
You choose, each solution is good and is trade between access and stiffness.
Sole stiffness is important around the engine cover.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:25 am
by les2021
Hi All

At last back in the boat shed after our trip to the UK.

Not spending too much time in the shed at the moment as it is very hot !!!

Decided to cut the shaft log out and replace with a new one.... not an easy job but was not happy with the position, think I have found out where I went wrong so hopefully fit the new one tomorrow which will give me peace of mind.

At last I think I have found a company to manufacture the fuel tanks, it has taken ages to find a supplier. In the end I have found a company in Germany, sent them all the details so awaiting the cost :roll:

Can someone let me know if there are does and do nots regarding drilling stringers and main frames to allow any water that gets in to go to the bilge pump.

Thanks for your last reply Jacques, I have an idea for supporting the soul around the engine, I will sketch it up so you can comment.

Regarding matting for under the fuel tanks, is there anything I should know ?

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:58 pm
by jacquesmm
For the fuel tanks, fabricate a cardboard mock-up and check the following:
- support (neoprene ads or equivalent)
- straps and access to straps
- bottom drain if you want that. I like the decanter cup type but you may loose height.
- access to pickup, vent, fill and access to the clamps for all those hoses.
Do all that before paying for the tanks.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:37 pm
by TomW1
Hi les here is a company that allows you to calculate tank volume by inches to determine how many gallons it will hold. You can then convert to metric https://speedytanks.com/build-your-tank/ Then they recommend this way to fasten the tanks down. http://www.marinesurvey.com/yacht/fueltank.htm The only thing you will have to do will tell your German supplier after determining the size you need is where you need the fittings placed. You will want the fill and vent at the front of the tank and the gas gauge at the rear. You will need a ground wire from the fuel fill to the tank and from the tank to the ground bar. Don't forget to leave room for fixtures on top when measuring height, 3-4" is good.

Well hope this helps.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:14 pm
by fallguy1000
Tanks in the US are required to be diurnal and the venting requires charcoal canister which you need to have space alloted for.. You will need to know if the surveyor or local authority in Greece will require it.

Access to all tank fittings is required and if you use metal fills; that is required to be bonded to house grounds.

All hoses on tanks ought to be double clamped in opposite screw directions.

And fuel tanks ought to be pressure tested after installation to 2-3psi overnite.

Neoprene pads are typically set in 5200 and then the tanks can be set on top of the neoprene. If you fab the tanks well, holding them down from the top is ideal. Or you can use hard plastic angle irons to avoid galvanics.

I don't care to argue with any other contributors about diurnal tanks. Do what is required!

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:55 am
by TomW1
fallguy do you even know what a diurnal tank is? It is one that has a positive pressure >1lb to prevent emissions to escape to the atmosphere. The ABYC and EPA worked together on this. This is nothing new and has been in effect since 2015 as part of the 2013 regulations. I do not know if the European regs require the same reg though they are pretty strict on emissions.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:31 am
by fallguy1000
TomW1 wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:55 am fallguy do you even know what a diurnal tank is? It is one that has a positive pressure >1lb to prevent emissions to escape to the atmosphere. The ABYC and EPA worked together on this. This is nothing new and has been in effect since 2015 as part of the 2013 regulations. I do not know if the European regs require the same reg though they are pretty strict on emissions.

Tom
Yes.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:56 am
by les2021
Afternoon All

Thanks for all the feed back. I have asked the fabricator in Germany to supply the quote for the tanks to meet the European Regs. Will await his response.

On my last post I asked a question regarding drilling drainage holes in stringers and main frames, anything I need to be aware of ???

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:31 am
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:56 am Afternoon All

Thanks for all the feed back. I have asked the fabricator in Germany to supply the quote for the tanks to meet the European Regs. Will await his response.

On my last post I asked a question regarding drilling drainage holes in stringers and main frames, anything I need to be aware of ???

Cheers

Les
No cuts on tops of stringers. But sort of passe' for drainage.. Getting the tabbing low is the real challenge to not cut into the cored material.. use an oscillating tool with a carbide head

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:39 am
by jacquesmm
Some of the rules that are discussed here apply only to manufacturing not to amateur boat building. If you buy a tank from a manufacturer, it will be certified and that's it. Look for the ABYC sticker or ask the manufacturer.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:21 pm
by TomW1
Limber (drainage) holes are drilled at the lowest point in each compartments frame to the farthest compartment where another limber hole is drilled at the back in the stringers to take any water to the center compartment to be pumped overboard. A 1"-2" hole is plenty as the deck is sealed and water should never reach below decks.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:31 pm
by jacquesmm
Thanks Tom, I forgot to reply to that one.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:40 am
by les2021
Morning Guys

As usual thanks for the last batch of advice.

All going well at the moment if not a bit slow, the temperature is now getting to it's hottest over here.

Just finishing the deck supports and drainage holes, will post photos soon.

I am about to fix engine mounting angle steels, I plan to use s/s bolts. Is there anything I should know about this job. Do I glue the bolts in and use double nuts incase of vibration ??? and how tight do I do the nuts up ???

Finished the relocation of the shaft log. It was playing on my mind for the last month, now happy.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:14 am
by Fuzz
I would cut an oversize hole and fill with epoxy/filler. Drill out for the bolt size. This will let you tighten them down hard with no risk of rot or crushing the stringer. If you use stainless bolts make sure and coat them with anti-sieze or they will gauld. Use lock washers or double nuts, something to keep them tight.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:49 am
by fallguy1000
Everything David said is correct. I would add one thing.

You cannot install bolts in light core. You need to decore and in this case, I would decore and glass over.

So, let's say the bolts are 3/8-16, which is probably like a 10mm metric.

You locate exactly where the bolts go and drill them out.

Then you overbore. The minimum bore would be +3mm each side or 16mm, but I prefer 2x or a 20mm bore and you can go to 3x or 30mm bore, but unlikely you have that much space or a 30mm drill. A 30mm fill likes to heat and crack as well, so stick with 20 or 2x. If you are using a 25mm hole, you may need to fill it halfway and then let it exotherm and fill it again in an hour on the other side..

Fill the holes all the way with thickened epoxy. You can add milled foberglass, if you like.

Now, to prevent vibrations from breaking out the plug, I would glass over the filled bores with a piece of 1708 or 1808 tape on each side. In a perfect world, you would have bored and filled these holes before glassing in the stringers which would give the holes all the fiberglass for strength. This is a good remedy.

For your deck cleats, you need to do the same and would be best to do so before glass. That way, you can hog out enough for the entire cleat fitting. Otherwise, you have to make stainless exterior and interior plates to not crush laminate. Cleats always need backing plates...fyi.

An alternative is to drill the hole and then hog out the material with a cutoff allen wrench on a drill, or to hog out glass behind the hole, but this is really hard to do.

Pay attention to the bit on stainless galling. I have found serrated flange nuts have less tendency to gall as the threads are not being overworked by a spring loaded lock washer, but large bolts I will either wax or use anti-seize.

I can show you more if needed on cleat prep. If you botched it, you can hog out underneath and work upside down, but it is harder.

Just yesterday, I spent hours fabbing exterior plates where I only have 4# core. I'll add a picture for you.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:32 am
by fallguy1000
Cleat base prep. See how I marked the base out and went bigger? The inside was glassed, then I hogged out, filled and glassed the deck shoe and locked the fill inside the hull.


Marked for removal. My buddy Ray who died this year.
17E556A5-365B-47A8-90D1-ACE8E3CAA1E8.jpeg
Bow cleat hogged out.
2E1DEB33-850C-410B-B1AD-A439F87EF2D6.jpeg
Finished with glass I think
43ACF152-C8AB-4C97-ABB9-979F2B074D16.jpeg
Side cleat hogged out one side, other side glassed.
BCF963AB-C354-48B0-BB27-E11F4B250FAD.jpeg
On the boat..
4FAF154E-0FD6-45A2-8BEB-30DECA135ACC.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:37 am
by jacquesmm
For the engine mount bolts, don't forget that you will need them all loose while you align the engine. That will be done dry first, out of the water but do not tighten them with full force. launch the boat and do the alignement again. Every hull moves a little bit when in the water. Once the hull is settled, redo the alignment. Follow the engine mounts manufacturer instructions to lock the bolts, usually double nuts. Anti seize is good advice.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:23 am
by les2021
Cheers Guys

As always good feed back.

Dan regarding cleats I have put Corecell M200 in place for 4 cleats each side port and starboard + infills for water and fuel, so 5 inserts each side. I have also put a large one in for the windlass.

The Stringers where the engine mounting angle goes is 4 x 15mm Corecell M200 plus Jacques glass spec. Like you say it would have been good to have drilled the holes prior to glassing, not sure I am that good :D

So it looks like drilling larger holes and filling prior to drilling correct holes for angle iron.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:34 pm
by jacquesmm
If you are asking about bolting the L brackets to the stringers, the idea of drilling oversize then fill with epoxy putty (milled fiber) then drill for the bolts is the way to go. I did reply about the fastening of the rubber mounts to that L bracket.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:26 pm
by fallguy1000
Should be good.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:15 am
by les2021
Thanks Guys

Next question....

Fuel tanks, is there a standard gap required from stringers, hull bottom, underside of deck to the tanks.

The underside of deck I understand will be down to the fittings required.

The German company I am dealing with are not easy....

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:55 am
by fallguy1000
The standard is 3% expansion minimum, all directions, but for example.

Suppose stringer spacing is 500mm wide narrowest part.

Divide 1.03

Tank width max is 485.

Always good to allow a bit more. And you ought to use neoprene strips to keep the tank off the surfaces to prevent crevice corrosion. Strips of 3mm are good.

Don't forget, tank must be secured somehow. I used angle irons. Mine were plastic. An aluminum angle should use neoprene spacer as well. Suppose a 1" aluminum angle, plus a bit of clearance to keep tank low enough. Otherwise, you can strap the tank down somehow with less clearance..but you need a fill on top.

Post the tank drawing here and we can watch out for any blatant error. Drains are not allowed in gas tanks (this is diesel) for example. For a diesel tank, it may be wise to install an access for cleaning as well.

I figured you may have fun on the tank issue.

Are they installing any baffles? Baffles would prevent slosh. My tanks are plastic, 64g and have a single baffle like thing iirc.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:12 am
by fallguy1000
Also, your sole must have access points for all tank fittings. So, locate fittings, not under a cabinet, for example.

A lot of fab shops like to build to a drawing. If you don't have a drawing or make drawing changes; they can get surly!

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:36 am
by jacquesmm
Tanks drawings are included in the plans but they are a suggestion: you can make your tanks larger, smaller, move them a little bit to another place.
My drawings show fill, pick up and vents but again, you can change that. Plan for those inspection plates.
Instead of inspection plates, some builders make a large hatch above the tanks. Those detract from the cockpit strength and I prefer inspection plates.
Not shown, optional, are decanter drains. I like them but they are not required, it's just an option.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:46 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

Finished all the deck / sole supports and glassed the deck ( so much nicer to walk on ! ) The beams and supports are working really well no bounce at all.

Made a mock up of the shaft strut ready to send off.

Al going ok apart from the heat 8) 8)

Next stage wings and window framework.....
D6163830-B045-4A68-A6F9-76EDBA4B51F6.jpeg
9F7499EE-9F1E-4442-8454-5FBDA964F507.jpeg
E453D039-6DEA-4831-ABFC-9FC49E8C42C3.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:54 am
by Cbuf
Wow nice work.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:12 am
by fallguy1000
She is a thing of beauty. How will you finish the gunwhale edge?

How you gonna get the tank in now? Snark warning! The edge of the tank hole gonna need to be decored..?

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:25 am
by piperdown
Looking great!

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:15 pm
by TomW1
Really looks great, you have done a great job on her.. Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:26 pm
by jacquesmm
I agree, it looks great and thanks for posting all those pictures.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:49 am
by les2021
Evening Guys

A big big thanks for the great comments. I am winging it a bit and not sure if I am doing the right things so when your comments come back it is of great relief. It is you guys that help make this build possible so a massive thanks.

Jacques taking photos of this boat is a joy, your design is stunning and I hope I can do it justice.

Dan I have attached one of my wonderful sketches of the planned gunwhales..... might change but something like this. AND I have not fixed the deck / sole yet.... hoping the tanks will arrive in 3 weeks and planning to fit the engine at the same time.

Cheers Guys

Les
09AB54DA-D369-4250-9D06-04861246BBAD.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:56 pm
by TomW1
Les looking good I would round over the outside upper edges so if someone sits on the deck the edges do not dig into their legs. :D

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:56 pm
by fallguy1000
Hmmm..

Not a huge fan of the gunwhale. Like Tom says, it looks a bit sharp. A gunwhale can be sat upon or can support rod holders or stanchions or all of that. I like a gunwhale I can set a beer can on..

Maybe spend a weekend at a marina or more time on google before you commit to the drawing.

At a minimum, if someone smacks it with their head; they should not be hurtreal bad.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:58 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Not getting much done at the moment, temperature in the workshop is about 110 degrees at the moment. Tooooo hot.

Manage to get the Engine mounts bolted on so will lift the engine in place over the next week or so for security.

Made the patterns for the wings which went great, just waiting for materials as all Greeks are on Holiday.....

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:59 am
by les2021
736D13AB-17AD-4639-B7DD-FDEB0308D554.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:40 am
by fallguy1000
I stop all work when the shop hits 100F. Too risky to get heat stroke.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:40 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

Jacques sorry to ask questions on a weekend.

Is there some dims ( dimensions ) missing or am I being DIM which is more likely :lol:
CD2239D2-F6D7-4D98-B1BD-0E9216F2F7C9.jpeg
Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:56 am
by fallguy1000
In case Jacques is off sailing, those dimensions can be determined by swinging arcs on the substrates or a lofting board if you wish to piece them.

Or, if you take the tan^-1 of 184/770, it would give you an angle you can use to get the dim.

I do not know how to get the other locations, or that I would use the number. I'm a bit confused why one side would be different than the other as well. If it were me, I'd use a batten instead to determine a line that looks right to me for the bottom arc.

I'll work the other dim here in a minute.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:57 am
by fallguy1000
Oops. I made a mistake in the post, but I caught it immediately.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:09 am
by fallguy1000
For the upper left dimension...

Given 770 and 184, a right triangle, the inv tan of 184/770 is 13.44 degrees.

Given a 90 degree corner of the windshield frame, the remainder angle is 76.56 to make the line from 770 up

The tangent of 76.56 is 4.1856.

527/4.1856

The upper piece on the left is 125.9mm. Verify with other method(swing arcs). Lower right is then ez to back into. 770+125.9-710

Again, on the lower, I'd batten that as I don't understand why they vary, but I also don't understand the 11mm variance either.

I think you are in the art a bit here. Help at all?

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:02 pm
by fallguy1000
Jacques?

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:10 pm
by OneWayTraffic
jacquesmm wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:33 am
Quoted so he'll get notified to answer the above questions on dimensions.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:14 pm
by fallguy1000
OneWayTraffic wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:10 pm
jacquesmm wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:33 am
Quoted so he'll get notified to answer the above questions on dimensions.
I'll try to remember that method. Thanks.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:02 am
by les2021
Hello

Dan, Apologise for the slow response.... we have had family over and it is too HOT.

Jacques seems to be out on the big blue sea ( lucky bugger )

I repeatedly look at the drawing and to me something does not stack up.

If you take the central windshield the outside measurement is different from the meeting frame outside measurement. Call me old school BUT if both start from the same point as per the drawing surely the frame meets at the same point at the top so it must be the same dimension..... Am I missing something.

Jacques I am being picky here ( pain in the back side ) I will fit the wings and work the rest out by measurement ( I just like to check once built that it meets your drawing ) To date your drawings spot on... Apple for the teacher :lol: :lol: :lol:

Would just like to know i am doing it right....

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:58 am
by jacquesmm
You can calculate and it will be correct but that was not my intention. Once you get to the cabin and pilothouse, it is very important to work from dimensions taken from the assembled parts. The dimensions I give for the windshield are to be used as reference points and to estimate materials. For the windshield, first build the roof top and the wings. Set up a couple of references battens and take final dimensions from there.

I will give the dimensions you ask for but need 24 hours. I am not sailing this time but I am on vacation in the mountains. I will stop somewhere and redraw that windshield quietly tomorrow.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:09 am
by fallguy1000
It is important at this point in the build Les that you understand that boat building is art.

The things you make from here out will largely be of your design.

My helm station, for example, I am a bit disappointed in. I spent many hours on it, but I wish the displays were more horizontal and the wheel higher.

I have a bench that is too high and too narrow; despite spending a lot of time thinking it was great..

The windshield, I recommend, you treat as an early foray into how do I wish to build it.

Some examples of alternative ideas...

1. Venting the lights by buying a custom made venting unit.
2. Venting by adding a small port vent in the window.
3. Adding high density foam in order to manage a trim ring install.
4. Using battens and cardboard to determine what you like.

Be prepared to ask for advice about bench heights, wheel heights and other things as you move forward. Electrical systems are also artsy; despite rules around them. A solar panel or two on top of the cabin, or foredeck, for example. Autopit, for another.

It can be fun.

The autopilit option on Aspencats is $6600, fyi..

All the best. The build is really lovely.

I spent a lot of time templating the front windows and windshield for Redfin. No drawings from woods. Those came out really nice. Windshield supposed to match front window angle....we'll see..

All template work, windshiekd is aluminum
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Wheel too low :(
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Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:22 pm
by OrangeQuest
I am lucky, I have a furniture warehouse nearby that I get tons of FREE scrap plywood for making templates. When I am done with the templates, I just have to leave them in the weather a few days and the Plys come apart making it easy to put in the dumpster.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:42 pm
by jacquesmm
Thank you for the pictures Fallguy. That is the kind of template I have in mind.
Very often, as the building progress, small differences creep in. A few millimeters here and there quickly add up and while you should use the plans dimensions, you must compensate for those differences and adjust some other dimensions.
I will upload a different drawing tomorrow and you will be able to use it to build a windshield template from cardboard or cheap plywood.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:36 am
by les2021
As always thanks guys.

I am starting to learn Dan that as you say along with Jacques it now breaks into self measure and design which I am looking forward to. So far Jacques your drawings work like magic, the wings on the drawing look crazy but when fitted the forward section bends and fits the front of the cabin perfect.

The Greeks are back to work this week so hopefully get some materials early next week.

Will post some wing photos next soon.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:30 am
by jacquesmm
OK. Dors that mean that you don't need more dimensions? I was just going to draw the dimensions in a different way but if it works, let's not complicate.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:07 pm
by les2021
Hi Jacques

Not to worry I do not want you falling off the mountain :lol: :lol:

I will measure and form once I fit the wings.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:57 pm
by jacquesmm
les2021 wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:07 pm Not to worry I do not want you falling off the mountain :lol: :lol:
You should see the roads I was driving on yesterday, there was a real risk of that. :lol:

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:53 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

Just a few photos of progress, it's been a hard few weeks trying to get the engine in and finish the big glassing jobs.

Scary few hours getting the engine in a praying it all lined up, looks like it's all ok though.... :D

Next job finish shaping the cabin roof and front windscreens.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:09 am
by pee wee
Very nice, that's a big step! Looking good.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:12 pm
by OrangeQuest
Nice looking motor! Looks like that opening was made for it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:22 am
by Fuzz
That is a good looking engine. What make and power is it? And maybe a few more pictures of it would be nice :wink: I am guessing there will be easy access to work on it as needed.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:53 am
by les2021
Morning Pee Wee, Fuzz, OrangeQuest.

It's good feeling to get it in place, I can now breath again :lol:

The engine is the Nanni T4 205 200hp, the shaft, shaft strut and prop arrive this week so will be able to do the final adjustments.

Hopefully I will have the electric drawing and spec arrive this week as well so I can order the materials to start running cables etc so expect questions :D

And it's time to get back to fairing and more fairing.....

Day off today ( so Nicki has told me ) :?

Cheers Guys
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:32 am
by fallguy1000
One thing I wondered about while considering the LB for a build...I wondered if the engine weight should be offset aft by marine foam. Now, I realize the boat is made with foam, but I think the boat if holed or a thru hull or seacocl failed might sink to engine weight.

Watertights are very difficult to fab with the sole, by the way.

Consider it friendly conversation. Each cubic foot of marine foam 2# offers you about 60 pounds of extra flotation. So I would at least entertain the idea to offset the engine mass.

Curious what designer would say.

As a foam boat builder, I am debating closing a wet bilge I made with marine foam..

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:48 am
by jacquesmm
It is difficult if not impossible to provide positive buoyancy in a boat that size but we can get very close or even do it because this is a light foam sandwich hull.
Keep in mind that the tanks, even full, provide buoyancy. Water tight compartments are good as long as they don't impede access for maintenance.
Filling all little corners and gluing foam panels under the decks are good too.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:09 pm
by fallguy1000
Other ways for Les to make the boat less likely to suffer a sinking event would include making floodboxes around any raw water intake.

I did a calculation using hand layup of 1708 on each side of 4# foam.

Each yard of hull/sole/etc with this layup weighs 8.5#. Add say 1.5# for the tabbing and each yard contributes about 50 pounds of buoyancy. So, offsetting the engine weigh in watertights or foam filled areas and I'm pretty sure she is technically unsinkable.

Protecting the engine is my main thought. If you are pos buoyant, but not enough aft, then the engine might be under water before the rest of the boat contributes enough.

These are my wanderings on this boat. Of course, staying upright with foam is the real goal, so foaming in useless higher spaces just a bit above engine bottom or middle vertically would also be good.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:22 am
by les2021
Morning All

Dan / Jacques

Thank you for the posts..... Please forgive me if my reply sounds slightly concerned !!!

When I bought the plans and decided to spend one hell a lot of money on building the LB26 I thought I would be building a boat that was designed with a certain amount of safety built in. Reading Dan's posts It seems that if the boat is holed then it will sink like a brick....

If extra floatation is required should that not be part of the build ???

I have read both posts a number of times, If I need to add extra flotation / air tight lockers can I please have details drawn up. The main reason being if I have to have air tight lockers etc this will have an input in where I run pipes / cables / exhausts etc.

If this sounds a little grumpy sorry.

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:37 am
by fallguy1000
The plans never said the boat was pos buoyant Les, unless I have forgotten.

The LB26 is a very safe boat.

Risks to vessels depend on vessel type. All boats have risks and risk assessment must always be considered by the captain.

For my Skoota, we have 11 watertight boxes, specified by the designer. The boat is an outboard. Now, Richard did not tell me, the primary risk to your vessel is X because he did not require the engine choice, nor did he specify where I operate the boat. Risk assessment is mine to do as captain.

The primary risk to my vessel, I decided, is fire. Mostly because gasoline boat. For this reason, I plan to build a small dinghy in case I am fishing 45 miles offshore. I also added egress or escape hatches to all sleeping areas. I recommend you do this as well. Epoxy/foam despite lower fire risk in a diesel is still very dangerous if fire occurs. And an escape hatch forward cuddy is nice for a breeze.

The secondary risk to my vessel, I decided, is drowning the outboards. For this issue, I went up to long legs and my engines are up higher than normal, but I don't care. Hopefully they will function well.

For a designer to make a claim a boat is unsinkable is really not done.

If you want to make sure the boat is pos buoyant; that is done here by all Mertens builders based on their own loading decisions.

So, tone down the grumpy and realize you are the captain, responsible for decisions around your vessel.

I, for example, do not even know the weight of that lovely engine. Nor do I, or Mertens, for that matter, know what you intend to load in the boat.

A refrigerator, two 40 pound anchors? Foam core or granite top for the galley?

And remember, if I have a tone, I am looking out for you as a fellow builder and trying to help you make good decisions that may be considered optional.

Buoyancy calculations are pretty difficult. But not too horrible for you and where you are in the build.

Basically, take each section of the boat and load the hull components, core, glass, resin.

Then add in offsetting weights. Engine. Fuel tanks, fuel is actually lighter than water, so I typically just leave it out of the calc, batteries, solar panels (see how this is hard for the designer as variable increase?).

I did it all on a massive spreadsheet. Hull and pos buoyants on one column and all sinking stuff in another column. It isn't too bad.

And when done, as Captain, you will know the safe loading maximums for the vessel.

ps-all my buoyancy calcs on the Skoota are estimated, when you estimate glass weights; you can easily guess resins with fillets at 110% of glass used

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:44 am
by fallguy1000
All my comments aside, it would be good to hear from Jacques on the subject.

I do not trust below the sole watertights! The sole is never bonded well enough to comprehensively seal, so below the sole must be foamed in, imo.

There are only so many options for placing foam below the sole of the LB26. Foaming on the sides and aft sections will also make the boat quieter underway.

How much foam I cannot advise unless you calculate, but you have excellent opportunity now.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:55 am
by fallguy1000
I would like to add one or two more things. All to help you Les!

Foaming in is supposed to keep the hull upright, so technically, what I said about only foaming in low, is incorrect.

Technically, for example, foam would be added to the sides above dwl, in order to keep the boat from rolling over if she took on water.

For the LB26, I don't recall if the mechanicals have a seacock or raw water intake, but if you add this to wash the boat down with seawater or to add a watermaker, adding a floodbox is another way to minimize any problems with a seacock failure. This is another sort of optional way to build and something I did on the Skoota. Something to consider now versus later...

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:21 am
by joe2700
In the US, outboard monohulls under 20' in length with more than 2hp need level floatation, meaning they float upright when swamped. This is a requirement of builders, so not saying it applies to home builds, just providing context compared to commercially built boats.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33 ... /subpart-G

Inboard powered boats under 20' have some other floatation requirments:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33 ... /subpart-F

I don't believe there is a floatation requirement for boats over 20 feet.

Some larger boats will have this as well, but once you get to a certain size I'm pretty certain most boats are not built in a way that they will float if swamped. That's why you see videos of fishing boats sinking offshore. There are still measures you can take such as watertight bulkheads so for example a seacock breaking can't flood the whole boat, just one compartment. That said larger boats if they get a significant enough hole will sink. On larger boats far offshore we bring damage control equipment, and liferafts.

I don't know a ton about the LB26 but I suspect at that size there is a mix. A 26' whaler probably floats(all their boats are foam right?) but I bet most boats that look like an LB26 don't. Just my guess. I'd think about how far offshore you plan to use the boat and then decide how far you want to go to defend against different risks, and I'm sure the designer would be willing to help with that.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:44 am
by fallguy1000
joe2700 wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:21 am In the US, outboard monohulls under 20' in length with more than 2hp need level floatation, meaning they float upright when swamped. This is a requirement of builders, so not saying it applies to home builds, just providing context compared to commercially built boats.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33 ... /subpart-G

Inboard powered boats under 20' have some other floatation requirments:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33 ... /subpart-F

I don't believe there is a floatation requirement for boats over 20 feet.

Some larger boats will have this as well, but once you get to a certain size I'm pretty certain most boats are not built in a way that they will float if swamped. That's why you see videos of fishing boats sinking offshore. There are still measures you can take such as watertight bulkheads so for example a seacock breaking can't flood the whole boat, just one compartment. That said larger boats if they get a significant enough hole will sink. On larger boats far offshore we bring damage control equipment, and liferafts.

I don't know a ton about the LB26 but I suspect at that size there is a mix. A 26' whaler probably floats(all their boats are foam right?) but I bet most boats that look like an LB26 don't. Just my guess. I'd think about how far offshore you plan to use the boat and then decide how far you want to go to defend against different risks, and I'm sure the designer would be willing to help with that.
The LB26 is very easy to make pos buoyant and safer than her commercial counterparts and why I mentioned to Les.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:39 pm
by jacquesmm
Positive buoyancy is not required for boats that size but that does not mean that they will not float if damaged. In this case, the hull material with all bulkheads, frames, stringers and sole, will help her float. The same apply to all tanks.
Boats of that type and size are not designed to be unsinkable but thanks to the foam sandwich hull, she will be if not over loaded.
Builders often increase materials and add equipment. For that reason, I can not guarantee the weight and positive buoyancy.

At the time of the design, I ran hydrostatic calculations in Orca for different sinkage levels and loaded as designed, the LB26 had positive buoyancy fully immersed when the foam volumes were taken in account. That means, loaded at the designed displacement, she will float if holed. I don't have the figures anymore, I keep only the hydro files at DWL. All that was at the designed weight. A heavy boat with, for example a generator, AC and lots of gear, may not float if holed.
My calculations were based on the surfaces and thickness of foam not on the designed volumes of the panels. I used a surface model and extracted volumes from it. I used wide safety margins for those volumes.
I owned many large boats, still have a 15,000 lbs trawler today and never thought about positive buoyancy for them.

I can't run a redesigned model just for volumes. I am retired and don't have a subscription to Orca anymore but still have the surface model and, in storage, an old computer with Orca loaded.
It would take me more than a week to set up and I am not even certain that Orca will run. It is an expensive program protected by government regulations and I have not used it in years.
To repeat the calculations made 15 years ago, I would have to design model with all interior volumes and that would take another week. I always keep a copy of the hydrostatics at the DWL and you can have that as an Excel file but it will not help.

If you are still concerned, fill all unused volumes with 2 part foam. I don't think it is necessary and I don't like that it reduces access to some places but it may give you peace of mind.
Upright floatation is something to keep in mind. If all the extra buoyancy foam is in the bottom, a flooded boat will be unstable and flip over. That is why I mentioned foam sheets glued under the decks.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:47 pm
by fallguy1000
Sorry if my comments caused any trouble.

I am all about building the best boat! And the LB26 is a beautiful boat, why not make it best? Les has a lot of money in cores and epoxy now.

The Nanni diesel is 771#.

I would personally add 2# pour foam or xps foam at 4# to offset 500#. This is 60# per cubic foot of material, so 8 cuft is 480 pounds offset.

A single 2 gallon kit of pour foam would be my plan if this were my boat. I would probably fill the aft sole sections and aft sections of the sides, where possible to engine height to prevent a rollover if a water event. This would make a very, extremely safe boat. You do not need to use pour foam in all cases. If rectangular foam is desirable, just use extruded polystyrene 4#. This can be used, for example on the hullsides. It can be glued in with dow corning or a petro based foam i sulation in a can, then pour behind it. But xps cannot be laminated, so if laminating, use marine foam instead, etc.

But for a boat this small, it is not too difficult for the builder to square off sizes of panels and make good estimates and even check them against material usage.

Again, sorry if this causes any hard feelings; not the intent.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:52 pm
by jacquesmm
One or two two gallon kits would provide more than enough extra volume. There is room in almost every compartment, you never use the full depth of the storage. A couple cm between stringers. some more along the chine and you will have a large safety margin.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:51 pm
by fallguy1000
I do apologize for being a bit late mentioning it. I saw the big inboard, then had some recall.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:53 pm
by rick berrey
Adding foam to the cabin top should be a given in all boats with a cabin , insulation and added flotation is a two fer .

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:53 pm
by fallguy1000
rick berrey wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:53 pm Adding foam to the cabin top should be a given in all boats with a cabin , insulation and added flotation is a two fer .
Yes.

My little cabin has a space of 1.5" and I will for sure be adding insulation between now and Texas summers.

Unfortunately, buoyancy foam calculations for the rooftop of the LB26 do not matter because Les would not want the boat to sink that far before holding..

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:09 pm
by BarraMan
Most of my thoughts on the flotation issue that has emerged here have already been covered above, but its a topic that I think every builder needs to think about.

Here in Oz, there is no requirement for a boat 6M (20ft?) or bigger to have positive bouyancy - I assume something similar applies in the US as our standards are very similar.

My boat is 22' so its not a requirement. However, for the places I chose to fish, my boat is my 'life support system'. While I don't go far off-shore, lose your boat and you are in a world of hurt.

We had an incident here a few years ago where a new boat owner went out fishing on the Great Barrier Reef, got their anchor line fouled on the motor which caused the boat to get stern-on to the swell. It took a couple of waves over the stern and went straight to the bottom - leaving the owner and his fishing mates dog-paddling 40 miles from shore. Had another boat not been nearby, seen what happened and picked them up - they would have been lost.

I calculated what I thought my boat would weigh once completed (I was fairly close as it turned out!), ignored the inherent flotation of the wooden core, fuel tanks etc - and made sure that I incorporated sufficient closed-cell foam (Microlen) in the structure to 'float the boat'! To that I added 2-pack polyurethane pour foam to fill every available space under the sole. The end result is essentially a double hull below the waterline between the sole and the bottom of the boat. I also enclosed the sides where possible, particularly towards the stern, and filled them with foam to aid upright flotation.

I also have 4 x bilge pumps! 8O Two large capacity auto/manual electric pumps in the bilge, one smaller capacity manual electric pump at the very bottom of the bilge, and one large capacity manual pump that will pumps out the cockpit. I also carry a bucket! :lol: The cockpit drains into the bilge.

I am confident that if I hole the boat - it won't sink. If the worst happens :help: , I'll sit on the bottom of the upturned boat, fire the EPIRB, and wait patiently for the helicopter to come pick me up!

If I was going any distance offshore, I would carry a life raft - but probably overkill for where we currently fish.

PS: I think that Michael Glossie's recent adverture with holing Great Sandy on a reef and self recovery of the boat and crew illustrates how you have to be well prepared if you do what we choose to do. :D

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:21 pm
by rick berrey
Fallguy , you'll enjoy South Texas once you get there , just make sure you have made room for an ac .

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:47 pm
by fallguy1000
rick berrey wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:21 pm Fallguy , you'll enjoy South Texas once you get there , just make sure you have made room for an ac .
I do have a spot for it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:10 am
by les2021
Evening All

Well where do I start....

Jacques I do not expect you to wade through old files, enjoy being retired. Live it and enjoy :D

To all those who have given input, thanks. No debate is a waste of time, all debate gives ideas and answers.

Regarding safety. Boring storey !!! when I was a teenager we were sailing back from France across the channel trying to beat an up and coming storm... we failed I spent the last 5-6 hours in a storm force 7-8 NOT A GREAT THING TO GO THROUGH I was aboard a Hurley 24 sailing boat !!!
I still thank the almighty for having a skipper who from the first minute took total control, safety first.

The first trip and all others aboard my boat will have the following, life jackets for all aboard, flairs, life raft and automatic distress device.

As I have mentioned before I have spent a reasonable time on the water BUT never built a boat. You have all come up with ideas which is helpful and greatly appreciated. What I would appreciate is sketches showing me exactly what is being proposed so I can plan plumbing and electric's.

When I had my construction company in the UK I relied on the structural engineer to provide all calc's with regard structure. In the UK structural engineers design a beam and then go 3x over the top, this is all to do with their indemnity insurance. I think what you are saying Jacques is that you have gone over the top with your calc's when designing LB26. I would still appreciate some sketches when you have time.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:58 pm
by fallguy1000
Take a picture from the cuddy entry looking aft.

Here is a general idea of the places to foam. Hard to do because the picture not ideal. A fancier sketch is lots of work for me and been tired all day for some damn reason.

You want say 8 cuft of foam. A 2 gallon kit or a 2 and a 1 would be my plan. Up the sidewalls can be done on the back section somewhere. A 2 gallon pour kit of 2# or 8-10cuft of pink or blue extruded foam wpuld work. The extruded foam 2" thick is 5.3 cuft per board. Two of those boards is 10.6 cuft, offsets 600#.
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Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:29 pm
by BarraMan
Why would you not put foam in similar positions in the more forward part of the cockpit. :doh:
Can you have too much foam? :doh:

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:27 am
by les2021
Afternoon guys

Cheers for the continued input.

Just a thought ( which is dangerous ) Can I use builders expanding foam or does that not have the same buoyancy values ?

Done a bit more work on the cabin top, just need to fill the overlaps and the corners and do some fillets and then I can tape.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:56 am
by fallguy1000
BarraMan wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:29 pm Why would you not put foam in similar positions in the more forward part of the cockpit. :doh:
Can you have too much foam? :doh:
Yes, you can have too much foam. Too much foam in the bottom of the boat would cause it to flip in a water event. So sides and up the sides only. I do not profess more than a rudimentary understanding. To simplify the concept, in a water event, you want the tub to remain upright so as not to spill the people inside. Making the sides more buoyant and evenly buoyant is the general means.

Consider the engine as the offseting weight. Since the boat is already pos buoyant, but we do not know how much she is pos buoyant aft and the engine is aft, the valid concern is what would water do to the boat aft.

And, would the placement of foam in a water event result in a listing boat rolling over. Since boat weights are uncertain athwart and impossible to balance; the way to prevent a rollover is for even buoyancy foam and up the sides a bit.

Les-to your question, yes and no. Do not use latex foam. It will break down on you. Only use the horrible stuff that is petroleum based. I do not know the density of it. If you combine it with 2" extruded polystyrene, you can effectively glue the foam up on the sidewalls. If you do this on the aft hullsides; it would really make the boat much, much safer. It is already safe, but the concern that the engine would take you down to the cuddy is real and this would mean the boat could flip over or unknowns would occur. If the boat flipped; you'd be clinging to gear or skeg in unknown seastate versus staying in the cockpit with water sloshing to your feet or knees.

Get me a photo of the boat floor open looking toward the stern from the cuddy.

You can or I can also post it on boatdesign.net for advice there if you like.

Many of the naval architects there have passed examinations for vessels that must not flip. I have not.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:01 am
by fallguy1000
I should mention, the boat already has a big ballast in the center; there is little reason to mess with foam in the middle of the boat where engine and gearing are. The foam effort is relatively simple work.

When you consider the ways a boat can take on water; this is why you may foam a foam boat more. The gearing or exhaust systems can leak. I do know Les gearing could someday leak. I do not know if the exhaust could. He has stated he will be in a slip or mooring ball, so foam also ensures the boat could take on a lot of even rain water and remain upright versus held up by the cuddy cabin...see?

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:31 pm
by TomW1
Following up on what fallguy has said for foam above the deck place some under the side decks from stem to stern and this will keep the boat upright at level flotation. As long as you have your other foam properly distributed. Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:38 pm
by OrangeQuest
Any flotation above the water line only works when it is no longer above the water line. Flotation below the water line is there to keep the flotation above the water line, above it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:43 pm
by fallguy1000
OrangeQuest wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:38 pm Any flotation above the water line only works when it is no longer above the water line. Flotation below the water line is there to keep the flotation above the water line, above it.
Yes. But important to remember, a boat that lists 5 degrees to starboard is then below her lines. Preventing it from listing further occurs when positive buoyancy is met. So only filling to dwl is not ideal, but foaming under the gunwhale is also not going to contribute. This is why I offered to take a picture to boatdesign; to get the best, most experienced advice.

So, in general, partway up the hullsides above dwl is still good.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:10 pm
by jacquesmm
Foam does not affect stability unless the hull is flooded.
Stability becomes a problem with a flooded hull if it has all the foam low and a heavy superstructure. In that case, the hull will flip but float if enough foam.
A case can be made for having lots of foam just under the deck , the goal being to keep the boat afloat with just the deck awash. That is what we do for small boats that must have upright flotation but it is very difficult to plan for that on a bigger boat.

As always, safety is easier to attain by being proactive and not getting in to those catastrophic situations.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:51 pm
by BarraMan
I think the biggest danger to my boat is hitting something and putting a hole in the hull. Hence the reason I think it pays to put foam below the sole wherever possible as you can never be sure that in laying down the sole that you have created water tight compartments.

While I have great confidence in the strength of the hull, as Glossieblack recently illustrated its relatively to put a hole in a wooden/composite boat and have significant water ingress.
I have hit a pinnacle just under the surface with my boat. Travelling along nicely at 25 kts in 20' of water when "bang", 0' on the sounder then back to 20' by the time the boat stopped. In that case the prop wore the brunt of the collision but it could easily have been the hull.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:12 pm
by joe2700
Another option is airtight compartments. I personally can't stand foam in boats so for my boat I didn't put any limber holes through the stringers. With 2 stringers in my boat that makes 3 compartments. There is a limber hole in each frame in each compartment. At the aft most frame there is a drain plug in each limber hole. You can pull the 3 drain plugs from time to time to check for water, but if you get a hole in any compartment it can only fill that not the other 2. Now this is not as safe as foam because of you hit something hard enough to breach all 3 or break the boat apart it won't float. Given my distrust of foam in boats this alternative gave me enough safety without foam.

Just another option to consider depending on your risk tolerance.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:23 pm
by fallguy1000
joe2700 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:12 pm Another option is airtight compartments. I personally can't stand foam in boats so for my boat I didn't put any limber holes through the stringers. With 2 stringers in my boat that makes 3 compartments. There is a limber hole in each frame in each compartment. At the aft most frame there is a drain plug in each limber hole. You can pull the 3 drain plugs from time to time to check for water, but if you get a hole in any compartment it can only fill that not the other 2. Now this is not as safe as foam because of you hit something hard enough to breach all 3 or break the boat apart it won't float. Given my distrust of foam in boats this alternative gave me enough safety without foam.

Just another option to consider depending on your risk tolerance.
Very true, but...

The sole bond across all the boxes is a horribly easy one to have voids, so I would probably use a separate piece of foam and close the top with 1708 tabbing. When I put my foam sole down, I did some inspection and the bond on top of a 5/8" wide foam is not good enough to ensure no ingress.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:49 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

Seems I have opened a can of worms with this one.... All useful though.

Dan I will take the sole / deck out and take a photo as soon as I can get a mate to give me a lift, would appreciate if you could send off to get advice.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:41 am
by OrangeQuest
les2021 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:49 am Afternoon Guys

Seems I have opened a can of worms with this one.... All useful though.

Dan I will take the sole / deck out and take a photo as soon as I can get a mate to give me a lift, would appreciate if you could send off to get advice.

Cheers

Les
I am with BarraMan's way of thinking. Build a solid boat, if the hull is breached the foam is a solid back up plan, if the backup plan fails or water comes in by other means, there is yet another back up plan. And that backup plan has backup plans to help support it.

For some, simply forgetting to put the drain plug in is a major event that requires ending the trip, returning to dock, scramble to get the boat on the trailer. For others it a good laugh and a reason you didn't plan for it but it's not a big deal. You planned for bigger things.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:48 am
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:49 am Afternoon Guys

Seems I have opened a can of worms with this one.... All useful though.

Dan I will take the sole / deck out and take a photo as soon as I can get a mate to give me a lift, would appreciate if you could send off to get advice.

Cheers

Les
As soon as I get a pick, I will post on the experts forum and see if anyone comments. I am the opener of the can, but if you ever took on water; rather than wondering what will happen 8 miles offshore, better to know..

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:42 pm
by Cbuf
For a boat this size I would section it off and have bilge pump in each section in the center of the boat. That is how my big boat(38) is, three sections, 3 bilges in the center, foam in the outside compartments with limber holes to drain into the middle of the boat. There is also I high level pipe (just higher than the water line) that if a section floods water will drain through the pipe to the rear. For a 26' I might try to section it in half.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:49 pm
by TomW1
les2021 how much foam do you have forward of the pilot house, it should equal the amount aft, or you will be out of balance if something should happen. I do know most bottom foam only goes to the top of the stringers, if that helps you. Jacques usually includes a foam schedule in his smaller boats, but I don't know about his larger boats as foam is optional. Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:36 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Just to say are thoughts of with all of you who are in or have been in the path of the storm.

Hope you are all well and safe.

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:19 am
by les2021
Evening Guys

Well it's good to be back.....

Last visitors have now gone back to the UK, grandchildren 6 + 3 boys or should I say tornadoes !!! great but so exhausting.

Just finished olive harvest, best year in a decade so the local farmers tell me, long days and back breaking.

So back in the boat shed for the first time in a month. I decided to carry the dry fit of the shaft, prop and rudder. all went well the shaft coupler lines up perfect with the engine plate. ( thank god ) So bolted the engine in place and will tackle the steering hydraulic ram tomorrow.

Still having big problems with fuel tanks. They are a fortune over here lowest quote so far 4000 euros !!!! for three purpose made tanks.

Have attached some very poor photos as usual.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:09 am
by fallguy1000
How much fuel tank do you need? 4000E big bux. Why 3 tanks?

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:24 pm
by Fuzz
That looks like a very good and clean install of all the running gear.
About the fuel tanks have you looked into building them out of fiberglass? Folks around here have been building their diesel tanks with glass for the past 30-40 years.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:34 pm
by CNYBoater
That is some beautiful running gear. Enjoying your thread, and good job.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:02 am
by Cbuf
very nice. I would check the forums on if your rudder is long enough. I remember somebody had an issue of the rudder being to short and that the prop shaft was propelling water on only half of the rudder which caused steering issues.

Nice work. I only mention this as I remember somebody posted a pic that extended the prop shaft through the rudder and it only covered 40-50 percent of the rudder and the fix was to lengthen. BTW I know every little about inbounds, just mentioning it.

cbuf

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:33 am
by fallguy1000
No comments on the other forum, yet, but international forum and mid week, people are busy.

Here is what I would foam. Do a calc and see how much you get. For the sides, use some polystyrene and go up say 18". Use a can of spray foam to glue it in and then pour the pour foam after the 'wall' is made. The amount of foam should be enough for the mass of the engine. Your boat would never sink this way, even if water filled it at the dock. And in a catastrophic event, like a broken sea cock, the water will stop filling the boat at about the area of the midpoint of the motor.

If 18" is way too much foam in the calculation, then you can isolate and air chamber the bigger chambers down below. Use a piece of corecell or a couple offcuts and glass it in on the top and used thickened epoxy. You may need to hotglue some supports in so the pieces don't fall in, but a well sealed air chamber is just as good as the foam. The sole is not a sufficient seal. I can see where I set my soles in nice beds of thickened epoxy and there are air voids. An airtight chamber can be made, but with intent.

The calc should be easy. Just determine how many cubic inches or cubic meters you have. If you don't want to buy foam, you can use all chambers, but all sealed with db400 minimum, plus sole.

5C0C5E0A-0851-47EF-9214-E65C88E7B5D8.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:58 am
by fallguy1000
E5793151-186A-4EAC-A876-709DACA30144.jpeg
You can also use this to advantage Les.

The airtight or buoyancy chambers tops can make a sole for a side locker. A rope locker, for example would be one nice idea. I don't know if you have enough room, but fenders are always a pain to find homes for..and it looks like you might have storage enough for 4 of them back there. You could make say a 2-6" lip up above the watertight top and leave a drainhole for some nice wet lockers..that are not real wet, but you leave them open for the fender lines to dry out. Buy the fenders now, so you can design for them.

The hullsides are rather narrow, so taking the chambers up and creating a locker base higher is really top shelf construction.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:41 pm
by fallguy1000
Another thing to consider is sound. Buoyancy foam can also make the boat quieter. So, if you foam the hull sides say up a foot, all the water noise on the hull will be deadened.

I figure you need about 11 cubic feet of foam. See what happens if you foam up 12" all the way around the sides and down to the hull, how many cuft you get...

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:42 pm
by TomW1
fallguy I am going to disagree the whole hull is made of foam and i would not like the looks of extra added foam on the inside of the hull. Well, that are my thoughts and as Jacques does not recommend any added foam for this boat. Boats over 23' do not require additional flotational foam per the USCG and ABYC.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:13 pm
by fallguy1000
TomW1 wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:42 pm fallguy I am going to disagree the whole hull is made of foam and i would not like the looks of extra added foam on the inside of the hull. Well, that are my thoughts and as Jacques does not recommend any added foam for this boat. Boats over 23' do not require additional flotational foam per the USCG and ABYC.
Disagree substantively then.

This was all covered awhile back. The extra foam is all hidden. The requirements for ABYC do not matter for a private builder who wants a safe boat. This boat would sink beneath the engine before it stops as is.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:56 pm
by fallguy1000
Each square foot (not cubic foot) of a typical 4# per cubic foot foam with 1708 laminated on each side weights 1/12th of a cubic foot or about 0.333 pounds or core, plus 100 ounces per yard or 100/9 ounces of glass and resin per yard as hand laid. Or 11 ounces plus 4 ounces or roughly one pound of weight. And that amount of foam is about 1/12th of a cubic foot or 64 pounds/12 or about 5.3 pounds of buoyancy. Or, the net is about 4 pounds for each square foot of hull, net.

So, for LB26...

About 8' behind the engine by 8m wide, bottom gives about 64x4 or 256 pounds.

Sides about 8x3x2 or 48x4 or 192 pounds

Transom about 8x3 or 24x4 or 96 pounds

Stringers are offset by lotsa tabbing and thicker bottom.

Area behind engine offers about 550 pounds. Engine and gear is about 800. Earlier, I suggested about 500 pounds of buoyancy foam. I stand by it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:41 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Apologise for not responding sooner, power cuts and no internet ( joys of living on a small island ! )

Cheers Fuzz / CNYBoater / Cbuf Have at last sorted the tank issue, the main problem is getting a certified tank to pass the end survey. Anyway I found a really great company in Holland, they have made the plastic tank all certified and tested and it is on it's way to me as we speak. I have decided that the 3 tanks as per the drawing is so expensive and difficult to obtain that I have gone for one tank and it holds 175 litres, if that runs out I have bought 2 paddles :D
Cbuf Rudder, you got me worried so I went out in the dark to check.... It is exactly as per Jacques details so will trust it right.

Dan cheers for the calc's. I know everybody has their own opinion on this and in the end I will have to decide, my feeling is that more buoyancy
IF PLACED IN THE RIGHT LOCATION !!! can only make the boat safer. At at this stage it is very easy to do.

Jacques do you want to comment on this ?

Ok so next subject.... the WC :help: Jacques I can not make the wc work. Please see my lovely sketch.

You will see above my stringers of which the lower one is 140mm deep I only have 1340mm the smallest pan is 375mm this leaves me 965mm, my head touches the roof... this is without a roof lining. Also I can not put it where the plan details as there is even less height and the door would have to be left open :lol: The study plans say 1500mm but this is from the hull.

So the question is can I reduce the height of the stringer to get another 50mm or more ???

Next question... Drilling holes through bulkheads. I am going to have to drill a 120mm hole through bulkheads F / G to get the exhaust pipe through, the pipe is 100mm. Comments please.

More to follow... Next job fit fuel tank, waste water tank, fresh water tank and bilge pumps.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:59 am
by fallguy1000
Most people bring jerry cans if they are on a longer trip. I recommend you plan a place to keep one or two or four if you take a long trip by sea. These are something close and may fit in those lockers I mentioned if you build a couple spots, for a couple hundred dollars you'll have emergency fuel. You can vent the lockers overboard to keep fumes down.

20 Liter (5.2 Gallon) NATO Jerry Can for Gas, Diesel, Kerosense CAN ONLY; NO SPOUT https://a.co/d/22Dxjuf

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:30 am
by fallguy1000
The toilet...more time for some artistry Les. You are like me and don't fancy art in boat building, but it presents here.

I would consider all options; including moving it away from the steering area to the opposite side or modify things so you can have more head height. A small 6" bump up under the windscreen, or a move of the toilet to an area between stringers. These are macerator toilets and can easily pump waste up. Mine is a Raritan and is 457 high versus your stated 375. Your personal creativity here will reap high rewards.

My door is a outswing door.

The LB26 I would make the head larger and shift the hallway a bit. Hopefully you have the option still. I spent hours tweaking the settee arrangement on the Skoota, by the way.

It seems like the toilet should be so the user is facing for and aft.

ps-my toilet wastes go uphill about 18" and is a raritan; prettt fancy toilet for small boat!

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:54 am
by rick berrey
There are manual toilet,s with compact bowls A = 330 , there is a Raritan with a bowl that swivels , that might let you move it off your stringer . There should be a fix on stringer height and location to give you a little more room . A small round hatch bumped up a couple inches that your head fits in also might be a good option .

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:11 am
by les2021
Morning

You are star Dan, I have attached a first thought as you suggested, no doubt this will change before I get to it !!!

This will give me the necessary head height and give access via a drop down panel to the control wiring plus chart and info pocket below wheel.

Regarding extra fuel storage, from day one I have planned to have a 10hp back up outboard which I will store below the U shaped aft seat along with spare fuel cans. I plan to build in a s/s plate into the bathing platform to clap the outboard to.

Once again thanks for all the feed back guys.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:03 am
by fallguy1000
Make sure to get the toilet in hand before doing much work. You may also need rear access to the toilet and a bit more space. This can be achieved by adding a place for the feet to rest, perhaps. Clearance is always required for hoses, but always comes at a premium in small craft design.

I am not a big fan of the toilet under the helm. I wil not lie. It would be far better to put it on the opposite side. My helm console is super busy behind it. If you insist on it, make every attempt to make the console access deeper. The problems you will encounter are steering hoses, autopilot and helm pump, and connections can be super deep. I had to spend $80 to make it so a damn cord had a 90; otherwise it needed 4" clearance for the displace and 4" clearance for the cord and I only had 6".

So, consider being rather aggressive and worry less about the aesthetics. I don't know what stage the windscreen is in, but it could also be raised still.

I would probably make the top flatter and cut down hard at the windscreen if you leave the screen. You can make a toe at the front of the raised area to keep things from falling down.

But swapping the head and the galley allows you to put all the helm stuff in a cabinet and you get all the head clearance back and the passenger side of the craft is less important; so the ceiling can be higher there.

At any decision, best to have the helm pump and toilet in before finishing in case your clearances are off..

But you are on a good track being a bit creative. Time spent now reaps high reward. Mocking up is essential to sanity.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:06 am
by fallguy1000
Edited prior post!

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:15 am
by fallguy1000
Some toilets can he installed in a well. So, you could make a toilet pan above the hull with some heavier core or plywood and then the toilet could drop a few inches, but getting off and on would suck a bit and you'd need to make sure it was all top mounted. Mine screws into a base from the sides and would not work that way.

But if you are playing with centimeters; it is a thought.

In the Hurricane 24, they actually have the entire foot area and toilet on the hull to give you the concept. And the door swings out and creates part of the space as it is about 4-6" wide at the top to allow the user to step down without hitting their head. Not sure you need to get so fancy as dropping to the hull, but this kind of creative thinking may help you.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:03 am
by les2021
Cheers Dan

Will try loads of mock ups and see which works best.

Quick question.... can I use a normal house fridge on my boat or is a marine fridge different ??? Every time you put marine in front of any item it seems to treble in price !!!

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:13 am
by pee wee
What kind of voltage do house fridges run on there?

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:42 am
by fallguy1000
A couple of points...

Yes. You can, but...

An AC only fridge can be powered shore only and then it will condense like made while warming up and be quite a lake inside by the time a day has passed.

Or. You can put together a massive battery bank for $1000 usd and buy an inverter for about $2000 usd to run it.

Or. You can buy a cheaper AC/DC cooler fridge, like this one.

BougeRV 12 Volt Refrigerator 12V Car Fridge 30 Quart Portable Freezer Compressor Cooler Compressor Freezer,12/24V DC 110~240 Volt AC,-7℉~50℉ for Truck RV SUV

Or. You can make your own cooler with a 7 day cooler and load it with big ice blocks. I make a 100 pound ice block and it lasts quite a long time depending on ambients. But it is hard to get the hundred pounders to the boat. Water ends up in the bottom. Works well except for lugging the ice on and off. The off is either water or ice.. 12 gallons..

I have quite a bit of experience with dealing with cooling stuff.

I made many trips to Ontario fishing and had many experiences. The best overall means for bush cooling I found was a combination of an AC generator and an AC fridge and and AC freezer. During the day and the hottest times, I ran the genny. During the nite; everything gets shut off at bedtime for quiet and the sun is not baking. As long as temps are not super hot overnite...but this means you are committed to a genny and managing it.

Battery banks are also not cheap. And if one battery in a bank of 6 fails; the entire bank gets changed, so a bigger bank is exponentially more expensive.

And, the wiring to support an inverter for an AC fridge is also costly.

In my boat, I have a Dometic that runs on DC only. The engines and solar and AC on shore support the battery bank; no genny. It is a bit of a problem because the boat must be plugged in all the time, which is fine in a slip, not so in a mooring. I have a Victron inverter/charger so we can power AC devices of about 12 amps, but a serious draw on the bank.

Refrigeration requires careful consideration of typical use and needs.

For the Meditteranean, you also need to decide if you want air conditioning. If so, you WILL almost certainly need a generator, so this answers whether an AC only fridge can work. Sort of. The AC demands for climate and cooling drive generator size as well.

Lots to think about.

If you want the simplest way, a plug in cooler would be the way to go.

The electrical AC system for my boat cost $700 for the receptacles, $100 for the panel, $200 for the wiring and boxes and gfcis, $350 for the cord, $150 for the galvanic isolater. For AC offshore, inverters and battery banks are going to cost about $4000.

The Nanni diesel also likely has an alternator. This power can be tapped to charge batteries, but some care is needed and you can use a Victron Orion or Sterling dc conversion system.

There is a LOT to consider...solar will also help, but is insufficient to power a fridge; generally.

If you have more questions; feel free to ask.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:48 am
by fallguy1000
My boat electrical system is pretty complex. I am still working on it. The hardest part is using the outboards to charge the batteries. I have Orions and spent $400 on a Sterling charger. One of my Orions is no longer sending out a wifi signal, so I need to spend a day on the boat working on it. But I have about $1000 into the engine charging systems alone and they are not ideal.

Insulating the cabin roof may be vital for you as well.

You have lots to think about. Once you pin down the requirements; it will be easier to meet them as a whole, rather than piecemal..

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:01 am
by Jaysen
You can add a TEC plate in a cooler as well. They provide 12v chilling. Similar to a fridge mechanism but no mechanics. Common as long distance sailing add to built in ice boxes.

In my opinion they are the right compromise for most boats that aren’t running full time power plants.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:58 am
by les2021
Thanks guys

Who would have thought buying a fridge would be this complicated :lol:

Jacques

Not sure if you are lost at sea or up a mountain !!! I posted a few days ago regarding drilling a 120mm whole through frame G + F to fit the exhaust pipe.

Is there anything I need to think about or do once drilled ???

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:41 am
by fallguy1000
You can hole the bulkhead. It is best to avoid holing it at the edges or in the tabbing unless this is the requirement. And, it is best to allow some extra space for the exhaust as required. If not specified; air gap can be determined.

I do not like to leave a fiberglass hole for something to wear through. If the exhaust is metal; you will be fine. But for other things like a hose or especially wiring; the holes should be lined. You can make guides with rubber with cloth inside as well. I slit one side of the rubber and screw four small 316 screws on each side of the bulkhead.

Another option is to use old innertube and wrap the wires themselves.

I also used pvc pipe to line holes. I scratched it and sealed it in with Black Mamba FHG which was advised by Aripeka Angler (Richard) and seems to be working. Epoxy does NOT and I tried.

I do not know the glass transistion temperature of your core versus epoxy and fumed silica to tell you if decoring and filling is better.

There are a few things as a builder where we feel we must ask, but after awhile; when there is no other option; we must act. This is one of those. The bulkheads strength is only affected if you hole it at some place where it can obviously collapse or shear if you hit a wave at speed.

Good luck Les. You are at a time when a chair, a glass of beer, a good friend will help you build the boat you want to spend time on..

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:15 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Cheers Dan, and yes the exhaust pipe is rubber. I will definitely be slicing some hose and fixing around the hole.

Does anyone know where Jacques is ??

Had the Nanni technician around today to look at the engine they are going to do the connection due warranty, if I do it the warranty is void... Great guys BUT they did raise an interesting question relating to the discharge from the exhaust, this will fall directly on to the bating platform which is marine deck..... NOT GOOD

Any thoughts on this ?

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:28 am
by fallguy1000
Can you explain the exhaust situation better?

Drawing with heights and dimensions?

I am thinking you cutout deck or add a stainless plate, but no idea the dims.

Also, what is the outlet temp?

Corecell can handle 150F real well. Might get dirty, though. Rated for 200+. You could also try to postcure just the swim..but not sure the dang paint can handle the temps either...thus the plate idea..but without dims and data not much to go on here

Another approach is to use it to failure with a plan to add a plate or cut away affected area later. But like I said; lotsa guessing here.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:55 am
by jacquesmm
les2021 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:58 am

Jacques

Not sure if you are lost at sea or up a mountain !!! I posted a few days ago regarding drilling a 120mm whole through frame G + F to fit the exhaust pipe.

Is there anything I need to think about or do once drilled ???
You can drill holes as long as you leave a 3" offset from the edges. Fiberglass the edges. In some cases, you can make a cut in a frame along the hull, I have to see where you want to do that.
For an exhaust, It would stay away from the hull skin and pay attention to insulation.
Some exhaust hoses are very insulated, others not. It depends on the type of hose. Ask the vendor of the hoses. Use hangers to keep the exhaust hoses away from edges.

Sorry for the delayed replies. I am retired and at 76, I want to enjoy travels as much as possible. I like remote places and that means, I am often without internet. I try to find places with a connection, download questions and reply later but it may take days before I can send a reply.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:58 am
by jacquesmm
les2021 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:15 am Hi Guys

Cheers Dan, and yes the exhaust pipe is rubber. I will definitely be slicing some hose and fixing around the hole.

Does anyone know where Jacques is ??

Had the Nanni technician around today to look at the engine they are going to do the connection due warranty, if I do it the warranty is void... Great guys BUT they did raise an interesting question relating to the discharge from the exhaust, this will fall directly on to the bating platform which is marine deck..... NOT GOOD

Any thoughts on this ?

Cheers

Les
The outlet should be just under the swim platform.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:38 am
by les2021
Morning All

Thanks Jacques

My apologise for chasing you down, I only contact when it is something I think is important for your input as designer.

My swim platform is 200mm to the top from the water line you then have a thickness of approx 50mm of platform, this leaves 150mm to water line. The Nanni installation manual shows and notes that the exhaust outlet must be 200mm above water line unless I am reading this incorrectly.
Your detail on the Machinery drawing seems to suggest that the exhaust outlet is 220mm above the soul / cockpit floor.

The exhaust outlet fitting is 150mm in diameter on the outside. So if fitted this would touch on the water line and go against the Nanni recommendations.

Cheers

Les
569B3BB3-CA27-4192-A148-FA6553C19970.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:50 am
by fallguy1000
I deleted my original reply after I got to thinking more.

So, there is some confusion here because of definitions and the Nanni manual.

Waterline.

There are two effective waterlines on a planing hull. A static waterline at rest and a waterline underway. The waterline underway is the bottom of the transom; generally. Even when you are under the hump; the waterline drops to nearer and nearer the bottom.

The design waterline for a trawler is the same as the waterline underway. See the issue?

Install the outlet so all precautions are taken to minimize the back pressure concerns they have for a heavily loaded boat, up to an including a bigger line.

Use their minimums versus design waterline for the u and others.

Exit below the platform. The only time you'll ever be immersed is if you have a ton of people and you are idling for some reason for an extended period which is not typical. If the tech comes back; remind them that this is a planing hull and the waterline is much lower when you are underway. An exception is backing of course, but this is why the high hoop.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:10 pm
by fallguy1000
The boat may make a very pleasant gurgle idling at the dock this way.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:25 am
by les2021
Morning

I have attached a sketch of what I physically have.

I have read the Nanni installation manual again... It clearly says that the through hull outlet must be a minimum 200mm above DWL and the top of the gooseneck bend must be a minimum of 350 above DWL. So I ignore the Nanni manual ! water at some stage gets into the engine Nanni technician comes and investigates and says sorry sir your outlet is below our recommended 200mm level... I end up with a third of a ton of scrap metal sitting in the bottom of my boat....20k !!!

Also even if I were to place it this would be dead centre of my platform solid glass support. When building this was not an issue as the drawing as I read it shows the 222mm above DWL.

The other problem is that to make a 180 degree gooseneck with a very inflexible hose and then turn it 90 degrees through the hull is very difficult with only a 150mm transom...

The bottom line is in my view I have to follow Nanni installation manual to comply with the warranty.

So I would be grateful for any help with the fact that the exit through hull has to go above platform and will no doubt stain the platform !!!

Cheers Dan for your input so far.

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:14 am
by Jaysen
Any reason you can’t exit the side vs the transom?

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:32 am
by les2021
Hi Jaysen

You must have been reading my mind... I have just read more in the installation manual and have found more info ( see below )
It says that the exhaust should not exit through the stern as it causes a situation where the vapours come back in the boat.... I have to say I have noticed this many times.

Open to all !!!

Cheers

Les
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06B8EE28-6E1B-4AB3-8EA3-AC0C0B15D864.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:02 am
by Jaysen
My experience working as a dock hand… trawlers tended to have “high and out the side” exhaust (compared to sportfish). I saw more than one that literally had stacks out the top about 12’ off the deck. Those had the stacks insulated and routed inside the cabin walls.

If it were me, I’d do something that had the exhaust well away from my nose. I like the high stacks it I think it could be difficult.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:09 pm
by fallguy1000
Certainly lots of choices. I'd prefer under the swim; gurgling along at startup if loaded up.

I get rather annoyed at the corporate world which seeks every reason to escape all liability, but I understand the your boat; your choice rule.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:30 pm
by Fuzz
Make sure to follow the manufacturers guidelines. A poorly designed wet exhaust is a regular killer of marine engines. The reason for not going out the transom is to avoid the "station wagon" effect. Wet exhaust out the side is very common. Lots of fishing boats around here are going to wet exhaust lately.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:16 am
by les2021
Cheers Dan / Fuzz

Well ..... My gut tells me stick to what Nanni instruct ! but it has now taken 6 days to get an answer from a Nanni Technician in the UK and the supplier of the engine in Greece, they both say take it out of the stern but must be minimum of 150mm above loaded water line. Greek technician says put it on the water line or even slightly below :x :x :x

So if I take it out of the stern it comes out as per my attached sketch, right inline with the swim platform. This would be a right b_ _ _ _ _ D to move as I have the S/S brackets already made and solid glass strips fixed to hull.

So my question is can I use some type of 90 degree bend to divert the exhaust waste down ???

Appreciate any advice....

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:06 pm
by fallguy1000

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:23 am
by les2021
Cheers Dan

Ευχαριστώ πολύ

I can always rely on you to make my decisions harder :D :D :D :help:

I think I will try and find a turn down through hull exit and stick it out the back down through the platform.

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:27 am
by fallguy1000
I love the gurgling sound of an inboard spillin water.

I have a dumb guy question.

Can this boat use a freshwater cooling system, so you never run saltwater through the Nanni and only an exchanger?

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:32 am
by les2021
Morning Guys

Sorry for the lack of posts, the old back decided to give way again so not much work done in the boat shed...

Dan I have a dumb answer ! you have got me there I can not find any info at all on fresh water intake to the engine, I have asked questions and no replies.

I have started to install the Fuel tank / waste tank / water tank and general plumbing and ducting. Now waiting for my back to get better a parts to arrive, it has been the Athens boat show so all suppliers had closed down !!!

I feel like I my have a barrage of questions over the next few weeks as I am going off piste.... :help:

1st I have attached a couple of sections out of the Nanni installation manual. I can see how I get the air into the engine compartment but exiting the warm air I not sure how this can be achieved as per the top box of the attached ?
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2nd Air vent on the fuel tank, does this just have to vented outside the tank compartment or through the hull ? the manual shows a diagram that suggests the vent just goes through the bulk head.

I will attach some photos of progress, I have started to position ducts with draw cords along with the tank plumbing etc. I hope to get back at it later this week :lol:

Cheers

Les



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Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:35 am
by les2021
Yes I got it wrong again !!!!

Nanni details
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Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:41 am
by fallguy1000
I would think your air outlet would be on the top deck,
/gunwhale aft section of the boat and covered with a clam shell. You can opt to add two clamshells for looks, but the intake does not need to be the same place. I wpuld put it off the back so that engine noise coming from the intake is behind the engine and not by you...

The intake needs to consider noise. All the air intakes I have seen were in the doghouses. Running any engine air into the cuddy is a bad error. So, I would intake from under the aft deck and outflow on the deck top.

For safety, I would install a CO detector that has a meter somewhere near the helm to make sure any exhaust leak (a 20 year from now failure, for example) is not sucked back onboard by simple vacuum created by the cabin and movement of the boat.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:10 am
by les2021
Morning All

Dan, thanks for the reply. I have attached details from the drawings and spec that relates to this issue. Jacques if you are around can you please help with the following.
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The air intake is not a problem, I can duct this down to below sole easily Nanni ask for this to be at the front of the engine. The problem is expelling the waste air, Nanni show this being above the engine I take it this is due to hot air rising. This is obviously not possible with the LB26 design as the engine is isolated in the middle of the sole and the top of the engine is 380mm above sole.
Dan I can not see how I can get ducting under the sole to the aft of the engine as the compartments are full of tank, muffler, ducts etc and this again would be below the engine.

The problem is I am in the situation of trying to adhere to the Nanni guide lines and build the boat that Jacques has designed, ( I do appreciate Jacques that regs etc will have changed since this boat was designed )

Going back to my previous post regarding tank venting. I have just read Blueflood's post. If I understand this right the tank vent has to go through hull port or starboard with a swan neck to help prevent water ingress ??? The tank compartment venting I am still not sure about. My tank as per my last post can be seen centre of sole. I can just about get some ducts in and bring these out in the rear U shaped seating with vent grills. this will mean though it will be in the cock pit. Is this ok ??? If not any suggestions ?

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:14 am
by les2021
Back again....

Should I be thinking of a mechanical extractor ??? to suck and blow it out somewhere ??? not sure where :lol: :lol: :lol:

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:26 am
by fallguy1000
Fuel tank compartment vent off the stern. Suction there can reduce smells in the boat. You can clamshell it.

Blackwater tank best to have dual vents, or one larger one. Also, overboard and aft is better so when you run the odors pull away.

Venting to the inside of the boat is just not wise because any odors of say a tiny bit of oil on the engine burning off will leave the stench inside.

Mechanical blowers are required on gas engines because fuel vapors can build and are highlt explosive. I don't belive this is required for diesels. The most common place for blower exits is aft either off a gunwhale/deck or high on the sides via covered vents.

Do not worry if ducting moves up or down a bit. A well placed exhaist vent and clamshell will develop a bit of suction and pull vapors of b/w tank, engine compartment, fuel tank compartment.

There is a rule that fuel tank vents are not allowed to be near compartment vents. This is to avoid backflow
Of tank vapors into cockpit/liv spaces (15" rule)

Les-do you have a surveyor or need one for insurance?

For my boat, I hired a surveyor early and retained him and he agreed to take calls and emails and bill me time and this helped me with uncertainties. Some of the rules you may need to folllow may vary to ours.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:09 am
by Jaysen
Vent engine compartment with blower. This will allow you to run the duct “the wrong way”. That or you’ll need to top vent the housing. I personally wouldn’t want that.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:18 am
by TomW1
Les one thing I I did not see answered was the fuel tank vent. It must vent outside the hull, here are some from the store here as examples for you https://www.boatbuildercentral.com/prod ... rap-vents/ You also put a loop in the vent line to prevent water ingress to fuel tank. Most of these that I have seen go out the side near the fuel tank under the rub rail. If you read through the description of the vents, I noted earlier they meet H-24.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:41 am
by les2021
Morning

Cheers Dan / Jaysen / Tom

Thanks for the feed back guys, will vent the tank through hull and I have decided to fit 2 Vetus extract fans and vent aft through Clam Shells.

Just when you think you are getting there..... there is always more !!!

Dan regarding Surveyors and insurance I am in contact with a surveyor and he is helping me with a kind of check list as we go, he will also do the final survey and tonnage. Insurance I have not tackled yet !!! Although I do have a good mate who lives in Athens and is an x Lloyds guy so fingers crossed.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:56 am
by les2021
Morning Guys

Does anyone remember the thread regarding sole hatch drains and the best way to form them. Can't find it...Not sure who's build it was on.

I will need to install the pipes etc soon so could do with some help and tips on the best way to do the drain outlets.

Thanks

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:54 am
by fallguy1000
I made three of my own in sole hatches with aquaplas or 20-26 pound density core. They are complicated to plan and build both and I am using nylon threads on one side and a barbed fitting on the other.

I can walk you through what I did, what I might change if you mean the entire system.

For access plates, I just used Beckson 6" deck plates. They are a bit above the deck, but I was going to build flush lids and fell out of love with my design which was not good.

My hatches seem to be working okay, but have not been tested with heavy rains. I notices they get dirty quickly as well, so I'd make as few as possible if I were you and focus on better storage above the sole.

If you want my plans, I'll get them for you.

I even put tape reliefs in the sole for mine. It was a shit ton of hours to build them all and fair them all. A few of the guys have purchased them from a forum member, not sure how they deal with sole thickness.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:11 am
by les2021
Morning

Thanks Dan. These are the inspection hatches to the fuel tank and the waste and fresh water tanks. So 1 will be about 700 x 1000 and 1 about 700 x 700.
They need to be flush fitting as I am planning marine deck in this area.
So any sketches photos would be great.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:08 am
by fallguy1000
What I did was rather complex, but has seemed to work under light rain, no hvy rain test.

First, I made some estimates about the finished deck thickness and then I relieved the deck with an electric planer or sander around the openings. The relief is for a single tape seam of 600/225. You could probably go no relief and direct water away from the hatches a bit as well, but I wanted a flush deck.

Other builders here have used a cedar post 3.5" by 3.5" for the starting stock, so I considered that conceptually a bit.

Then I determined the finished hatch thickness; the gasket thickness, and laid out the pieces.


Maintenance locker and livewell glued in place. I made the main parts long enough to go to the sides. The pink foam is livewell insulation.
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Drawing is upside down
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Top view
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On the bench being built. All glued with thickened resin.
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Look close and you can see I've added the fiberglass to the inside of the gutter at this point
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Bigger locker on other side.
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Note it is glassed and tabbed underneath at the hullsides.
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Contrary to what I said earlier, I did not relieve the deck here. There were other tapes coming from all directions, so all I did was faired the entire deck up. Ot looks like I screwed the deck down when it was glued. I actually did laminate a piece of glass and a fat fillet on the back and bottom as well as the top. It was all done blind, so a bit imperfect. Any sharp edges, I ground off later.
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Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:40 am
by fallguy1000
Here are some final pics. I probably have ? 100-200 hours into these (or more than 200!); horribly time consuming Les.

Deck with in sole hatches. Look to the left, those are all the fuel tank access hatches. Lot, lot easier to cut a hole and screw the base down into bedding compound, but they are above the deck a bit. I also have two of the same style hatches with drains on the lockers to the right. The one in the middle is designed to drain off the sides, but same idea with gasketing.
C23B758E-C291-4589-958F-8574F71E28BE.jpeg
Because I did not do a relief on this side, I had to make a couple notched lifts of fairing compound on the bottom of the hatch lid. You can also see the drain hoses. Each hatch lid; except the livewell, has two drains and a thru hull to drain off the boat. The livewell just drains into the well, so need to keep it open, but it is massive..
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There was a groove made with a custom made router and then a gasket was married on the ends with stainless rod and glued down with crazy glue. The router was made with a dremel tool and a screw set into a olastic glued into the dremel guide for a guide.
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Then plastic laid down and the lid set down to weigh the gasket down for crazy glue to set.
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All fitted, ready for paint after removing hardware. I only screwed the hinges in sealant. If they fail, I will switch to bolts.
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Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:07 am
by OrangeQuest
Those smaller hatches are very easy to install. Cut hole with saber saw, drill mounting screws over size, fill with epoxy paste, drill to screw size. Little marine sealant when installing. Because they are slightly raised, less chance of any water getting in, and the lid has an O-ring gasket. They make special tools to tighten and loosen them but easy to make a tool too. Only downside, if they are not tight, sand can get in the threads making it hard to unscrew and hard to get the sand out then. But silicone paste grease will keep that from happening and a lot easier to unscrew them.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:22 am
by les2021
Morning Guys

Thanks Dan / OrangeQuest

Dan those photos are perfect and I will tackle the hatches in the New Year.

A big thanks to all of you who have help me with my challenges this year, sometimes frustrating but always rewarding.

A very big Happy Christmas to you all and have a great festive holiday.

For those of you in the seriously cold weather area my thoughts are with you.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:08 pm
by les2021
Evening Guys

Back in the boat shed at last, nearly finished all the under sole / deck work. Just about to start checking everything before the deck goes down.

Oh and build the deck drains !!! thanks Dan :help:

Here are a few photos so far, not much room left.... Exhaust now below platform :D

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:57 pm
by OrangeQuest
Wow! That is amazing how many hoses, cables and whatever else is in the mix and everything is so neat and well placed. Very well done.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:21 pm
by fallguy1000
My only comment is to make sure you have the ability to change the sani-line between the head and the tank. And perhaps the tank and the outlet, so absent access; use care clamping them or don't. You can rest them in pvc half cut tubes, but avoid clamping in any inaccessible spots.

The reason for especially the head and tank line access is waste stays in there and the lines are considered odor free for like 7years max.

I have the exact same lines and they do require changing.

Other than that; things look great. Make sure and spend xtra time staring at the work and take measurements for access points if u ever need to cut.

I was a little unhappy to discover gluing onto 12mm core did not work real well. It is petty, but what happened was I set the deck down on an angle and some of the glue pushed off the gluing surface. I even have a few voids. These ply boat builders often add cleats to widen the glue base.

And the only other issue is the spans. I used i beams in any spans over about 20". I believe I showed you those?

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:37 am
by les2021
Morning

Thanks OrangeQuest

I have to say it took allot of head scratching, there is not much space below deck even trying to work in there was a challenge not to trip and break your neck. Really please though but will be glad to glue the sole down.

Dan big apologise I have not been following the forum much over the last month or so did not realise you taken to the water. She looks great, but sorry to hear about the balance problems. One thing I am very sure of though you will overcome this issue and soon be enjoying your fantastic boat for many many hours. Just wish I had the knowledge to give advice but sadly I do not but I am sure the guys have and will continue to help.

Regarding the gluing the sole down, you make a good point I will thicken up some of the bulkheads etc to realise a decent glue bed.

Getting a bit excited now about starting fitting out and planning seating, cabin etc.

The weather here starts to pick up in about 4 weeks so should work perfect for glassing again.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:51 pm
by Jmk2000
Hey Les, interesting build and am enjoying following along. How has working with the foam been for you? I’ve never seen a build using it. It seemed like you were able to move fast in some ways. What are the advantages of it? I’m guessing it’s possibly more expensive. I see you went with a 4 blade over the 3 that you initially planned. Was there any specific reason? Keep up the good work.
Josh

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:29 am
by les2021
Hi Josh

The reason for foam is weight and it is the method recommended by Jacques.

For me foam is fun to work with it is really forgiving, as a carpenter I have worked with wood / ply all my life. These days my back says please build with foam :lol: It is great for shaping and as I am building alone it is easy to lift into place.
Living on Crete is the only problem, the supplier is on the main land and over here things are not cheap, I am using Corecell M80 & M200 it is about 105 euros a sheet for the M80 :( and I have used 50 sheets and my waste pile is very small.... This is not a cheap boat to build :help:
This is my first boat so first time using foam, so the big introduction is the hull all 26 foot of it, I think as all the guys say time and time again is make sure you take your time and get the moulds right. I found planking the hull with v jointed planks and then using pipe casing bags to squeeze the resin in worked really well. I will say, thank god for my bench saw, could not do it without one.

So would I use foam again BIG yes.

With regards the prop it was the recommendation of the Nanni supplier, his prop department said it was the way to go.

I love the build ( most of the time :lol: )

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:35 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

Well today is the day, the sole is going to be glued down. I have checked all joints, clamps, hoses can't do anymore :help:

Have to say it will be a joy walking and working on a flat surface, it has been a big challenge trying to make everything fit and work, I have tried my best..... So a large glass of wine tonight and fingers crossed.

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:12 pm
by fallguy1000
We look forward to pictures. A milestone for all.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:09 pm
by TomW1
Congratulations a major milestone it will feel good walking on flat decks.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:54 pm
by les2021
Evening All

Thanks Dan / Tom

I decided I needed to do some building work that looked like I had done allot but really I haven't :D

Cut the cockpit walls and the V berth, made me feel good anyway :lol:

I am still trying to get my head round the air intake to the engine, if my calc's are right I need 60sq inches so 30 each side. The only S/S ones I can find over here are surface fix so screws on the hull which I am trying to avoid. I am thinking of making my own by creating a mould and doing them in glass and inserting them into the hull. Any thoughts ???

Cheers

Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:31 pm
by Fuzz
When you make a showing you MAKE a showing. That looks really good!

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:47 pm
by fallguy1000
Air intakes...

I'd make them with high density foam; mount them into butyl and screw them in from underneath or inside the hull.

Sure, you could make them solid glass, but the foam is as good as a plug.

If you only have 4 pound foam, just make screw inserts with small pieces of wood. Shhh! I won't tell.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:47 am
by les2021
Evening Guys

Bit late I know.... cheers Fuzz / Dan

I have continued trying to tidy up the cabin as it will not be long before it will be like an oven in the cabin, so built the hatches, bow thruster forward, battery locker starboard for windlass and thruster, general locker port, all painted and ready. Just need to fit hinges and catches.

Going to spend one more week inside before I scare the pants of myself by finishing the hull and painting !!! So Dan I know.... we went through all of this over a year ago, BUT the time has come to brave it, so questions to follow. I have researched and watched more youtube than I care to think about.

A question though guys, lining the cabin walls and ceilings, should I insulate ? if so what with and what thickness ?

I will post a sketch soon of my proposed paint scheme, please be honest and say if it is too advanced for me.

Cheers

Les
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B3EEF0AB-EE31-42B5-B595-29C41F625137.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:48 am
by les2021
Evening Guys

Bit late I know.... cheers Fuzz / Dan

I have continued trying to tidy up the cabin as it will not be long before it will be like an oven in the cabin, so built the hatches, bow thruster forward, battery locker starboard for windlass and thruster, general locker port, all painted and ready. Just need to fit hinges and catches.

Going to spend one more week inside before I scare the pants of myself by finishing the hull and painting !!! So Dan I know.... we went through all of this over a year ago, BUT the time has come to brave it, so questions to follow. I have researched and watched more youtube than I care to think about.

A question though guys, lining the cabin walls and ceilings, should I insulate ? if so what with and what thickness ?

I will post a sketch soon of my proposed paint scheme, please be honest and say if it is too advanced for me.

Cheers

Les
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B3EEF0AB-EE31-42B5-B595-29C41F625137.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:51 am
by les2021
Not sure if the photos downloaded...
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Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:32 pm
by Jaysen
Ok. I’ve had to cut into a boat of three lately and here’s my take on insulation. It’s sucks donkey when you have to get back into any space. And you will need to get into all the spaces.

That said insulated cabins are quiet and much more comfortable if you have environmental controls in the cabin. There are real reasons to want insulation. How would jaysen make his own life easier?

I would use insulation attached to the liner and make the liner removable in sections. Sections that can’t have removable liner would get removable, encapsulated insulation. The idea being that you can pull a section out, reach in and remove the insulation not attached to the removed panels.

Hope that makes sense.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:56 pm
by fallguy1000
Primary envelope heat gain and heat loss is through ceilings, well roofs. In all but the mildest climate, insulating a cabin roof is a must.

This is typically done by making crossbeams, a roof deck on top, and insulation the thickness or just under the beams, and then a removable headliner. The removable part is handy for electrical matters.

Marine foam has a small R value; enough to mitigate some condensation and to make messing with the walls low value. Obviously, paint color matters. A dark blue boat may be sexy as hell, but so hot inside ...

The forces that create condensation are temperature differences. I had heavy condensation inside the Skoota running my diesel heating system on some 32F nights in October. Otherwise, nearly none.

In your locale, the only time you may expect condensation is cold seas and hot days below the waterline. Or if you have heat on in winter.

So, if I were building your boat, I'd insulate the rooftop so that the scorching Med sun doesn't cook you in summer and/or if you add some a/c; it isn't taxed too much. Otherwise, I'd not do much more for now.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 3:59 am
by les2021
Cheers Jaysen / Dan

Quick question.... The two pack Perfection range by International over here has a very small colour range.

What are the thoughts on two pack polyurethane versus one pack, is there a marked difference in application and durability ?

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:30 am
by Jaysen
Two part seems to last longer based on what I’ve seen on local boats. Doesn’t seem to matter that manufacturer.

More important is the surface prep.
1. Clean clean clean. Make sure there is no dust and not residue from your cleaners.
2. Do not “over sand”. Make sure you read the application instructions and follow the recommended sanding grits for surface prep.
3. Did I mean ruin clean?

Good luck.

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:07 am
by fallguy1000
I dunno y, but I have to first delete my prior post to make a new comment.

Two part paints are going to last about 5 times longer in light colors. There are a few tricks to using them.

They are a bit finicky to apply. You really don't want to use them below waterlines and some are not as immersion friendly as others.

These paints apply very thinly, and you must follow a strict wet edge rule, and so you cannot have the sun beating on them.

What is a wet edge rule? The new paint you roll on is not allowed to touch any part dried area. So, you can only paint just painted areas. This is important for starts and stops. On my boat, I taped off a few areas and then did my best to just touch the slightly dry paint all the way around in those areas, but al the curves and changes on my boat made it super difficult to paint.

And the other thing is these paints require perfect substrates and perfectly cleaned processes.

For about 8 months, I struggled with fisheyes. I finally discovered the culprit was throw away paint liners where silicone is applied as a mold release for them to make them.

So, you must use food grade aluminum foil for paint tray liners.

I followed a pretty strict cleaning regimen. First wash the hull with soap and warm water. Clean with recommended cleaner. Next, apply epoxy primer, one coat. Next, touch ups or any added fairing, then sand the entire primer coat, clean with recommended cleaner and three coats of primer within window for recoats.

Then sand the primer coat with 180 grit or as per mfg The next step is up to you, but you can primer again and sand agin.
Then clean it a lot. Get rid of all the dirt in the environment, blow it out, vac it out. Wash the boat with solvent per manufacturer of the topcoat. Wear a respirator. Walk away. Next day, swamp the floors with a mop as much water as possible, avoid slopping the boat and carry an cotton rag if you slop it. After the floors are swamped, tack off the area to be finished with a tack rag. Based on your prior wash, the tack rag should not be paint dirty; just dusts. If paint dirty, wash it again. Then tack after dry. Never tack a just solvent washed boat as the tack will loss shellac to the boat!

Make sure all of your paint tools are 150% free from any contaminant. For example, never use an old dirty wood stick to mix paint. It must be cleaned with solvents first. The dirt will get into the paint and when it hits the surface; it will show or fisheye. After you paint the boat; exit the area.

Dry time of the paint is critical. If the paint dries to fast, say it is 88F in Greece the day u want to paint; it will fail. The way to deal with this is a paint retarder for that paint. If it is 60F, you may need the opposite, but a retarder can cause problems because if the paint is wet too long; more dust/dirt can enter the finish.

Much depends on the paint rules for recoating, but recoating say 2--3 coats is typical. Then you sand the finish (or accept it), with the highest grit allowed (320-400?), and then you clean it all like a madman again, swamp the floor again, tack it off, and then a final coat. Be aware that two part paints are super hard, I got about 2-4 square feet per sheet of sandpaper before they started to cut poorly. So, myboat cost a fortune to sand! Papers all over the floor when done.

I found tipping did not work as well as thinning the paint a tad and only rolling. My first hull was tipped and has tipping lines; the second one has a wee bit of orange peel in the final finish; an acceptable tradeoff for the amount of work.

Finding rollers for you will be a pain. Buy a whole case of some good ones. Anything bigger than 6" is too big for your boat. Anything smaller than 4" will be annoying.

So, super low nap 4-7" rollers. 4" will be hard to avoid lines, so 6" is my advice. You should test the 7" and see if it walks bad on any high curve areas like the bow.

I'd buy these for the polyurethane work.

Epoxy paint rollers are the quantums.

https://www.boatbuildercentral.com/prod ... -covers-7/

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:25 pm
by Jaysen
On the tray liners… don’t use them. The trays are part of the cost. I do extend life by pouting out excess, hanging them in a spot to dry, then reusing them after cure time. Basically two trays to run 2+ coats of paint. I’m also moving onto spraying because. Just because.

What FG says about contamination is critical. My personal rules:
1. Remove all “spirits” and “oil” cleaners from your kit. The I love you cleaners i use are acetone and MEK. I prefer MEK but that stuff …
2. Get rid of all “wood” or other absorbable material based tooling. Only metal or plastics I know will survive my cleaners (acetone MEK). FG hinted at a 5gal bucket of cleaner. I have 3@2.5g. One for dipping, two for soaking. I pour cleaner through sprayers too. (Gel/esters)
3. Get a REPAIRABLE paint. There’s a difference. You will have contamination and being able to remove the bad spots and just repaint that area with the reassurance that the paint is good… with the small fortune the paint will cost.

Lil Bit has EMC fight lady yellow and oyster white. Rolled. Contaminated. Crappy prep. Looked great day one. Looks great now. Only issues are prep related. Very little maintenance on the paint. My feeble brain says that was 7 years ago. I refuse to use any paint that isn’t EMC. Turn away jobs if folks won’t pay for it. Other paints are good, but I know I can make EMC work.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:20 am
by les2021
Afternoon All

As always thanks Dan / Jaysen

So I have studied the replies and I am getting the feeling I need to clean, clean oh and clean :lol:

I want to try and stick to the two part Perfection Range as it seems really good and from what I have learnt the application seems good. So I would like to do something like the attached sketch using white and platinum, not exactly as the sketch but similar. NOW is that too advanced for a dip stick like me ? If not how do you achieve the joint between the two colours ? obviously I can tape for the first colour but what is the next procedure to join the second colour ???
Dan your point about the wet edge problem, where do I start on the LB26 ??? My thoughts would be start at a transom corner which has a slight round and then work up around the bow and back to the transom... BUT this will meet at the dry corner !!! :help:

Any advice as usual will be appreciated.

Cheers

Les
5FF4BC97-60C6-46F8-8262-DB9DFDDAB947.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:33 am
by fallguy1000
You need antifouling for a moored boat to 3" above dwl.

Antifouling is always per local recommendations, so find out from the marina or mooring field.

White does not existing in antifoul. Copper colors tone all antifouling.

To do 2 colors is pretty hard, but not impossible. The way I would do it is to paint the middle color first up and down past the 3" mark above dwl and above the planned line. Then you double tape on good paint with a safe release the final line for the platinum. Then you sand right to the tape lines for the sand down to the middle color on your swoosh with 320. Then remove the top layer of tape which is sacrificial for sanding. Clean and you are ready to paint to just over the tape. Remove the tape immediately after applying the paint to each side. The tape you use must be non-bleeding, many masking tapes are not.

I don't really like the paint plan you propose. The bottom paint should be decided first and like I said, there is no white.

My boat paint colors suck for this very reason. My bottom paint white is cream and the boat is boring. The cream is called white, but copper paint..

That scum line is my negative trim issue.

66682194-1739-436D-91A0-76D8B72584EA.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:36 am
by fallguy1000
Once you determine bottom paint; only then should you plan the other colors. Or vice versa, but with 3 colors, black bottom paint, white above it and gray above that might look odd. If I did gray above this is would be horrid.

The best way to go is to take the patient wife to the marina for dinner. Tell her no dark colors and have her find 3 color boats she likes if you want two on top and a bottom paint..
B64D1F3B-A1A7-4CC8-B4C5-D671411E3FA4.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:07 pm
by Jaysen
The join between the two colors is just tedious tape and hand work. No secrets.

There is the "boot stripe" trick. You just put a vinyl stick on boot strip over the merge and call it done. It eliminates most of the trickiness. I know some folks do it with paint. If I do it with paint I get both colors close (table) feather the edge, then tape the stripe and paint.

If you can, use I chine edge for as much of your color divide as possible. That will help as well.

Good luck.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:48 am
by les2021
Morning Guys

The bottom is already antifouled and like you say Dan white does not exist, it is a very brown / grey / white. When I flipped I only painted up to the chine so I have to antifoul above when I get going.

The scheme I like is this one or similar ( yes the boss agrees ) :lol:
A7E08EFD-72A3-40FA-AA05-A3564739E9CE.jpeg
Not a good photo ( sorry )

So yes I will have a band of NOT white antifoul then go to white and then the platinum.

The trouble is I have been putting off choosing as my first choice was dark blue, the input from you all soon put a stop to that ( researching this also suggested staying away from dark colours ) Trouble is this section is not only tricky but also very expensive !!!!

Will give it more thought but will have to choose soon and bite the bullet... :help:

Cheers for the input Dan / Jaysen

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:47 am
by fallguy1000
Typically, antifouling is applied dead last.

This is because you can sand topsides paint, and paint over it, but not vice versa.

Paint the gray first. Splattering the white is bad. Let it cure 5 days in warm weather and double tape the line and then sand to the masking with 320-400. Pull the top tape that is sander damaged and verify a good tape line.

Use a weak release tape on antifouling and hope you don't pull antifouling, sand off all antifouling above the tape, then paint the white to Pull the tape after a Kyrie Eleison. Antifouling is typically 2-3" above dwl.

The antifouling should have been done last.

If you damage the antifouling; you can sander blend it and do another coat of it. Taping off the white paint after 5 days cure.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:50 am
by fallguy1000
I have cheated masking 2 part much sooner than 5 days. But much depends on heat and temps and after the first day, I run fans to keep air flowing, etc. follow mfg guidelines and adjust for conditions

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:43 am
by les2021
Evening Guys

So todays question !!!

Went to see the Pavlos today he owns the local boat sales and boat workshop. Wanted to ask him about seating and upholstery, very helpful and has arrange for a guy to come over and look.

Whilst I was there we were chatting and he ask lots of questions about the boat and looked at photos, he then said who was going to paint the boat..... I said I was, he then went into detail and said why was I not spraying it with Auto paint as this was the most common way that boat builders over here were painting boats now !!! So I rang my step son in the UAE, he for many years worked on Shipman yachts and now runs a marina in the UAE he said why was I not using Auto paint as many of the boat builders in Eastern Europe and the UAE are now using Auto paint.

So Question am I being spun a yarn ???

Will post some more photos shortly, the one below is for a laugh.... the platform can take my wieght :lol:

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:44 am
by les2021
Evening Guys

So todays question !!!

Went to see the Pavlos today he owns the local boat sales and boat workshop. Wanted to ask him about seating and upholstery, very helpful and has arrange for a guy to come over and look.

Whilst I was there we were chatting and he ask lots of questions about the boat and looked at photos, he then said who was going to paint the boat..... I said I was, he then went into detail and said why was I not spraying it with Auto paint as this was the most common way that boat builders over here were painting boats now !!! So I rang my step son in the UAE, he for many years worked on Shipman yachts and now runs a marina in the UAE he said why was I not using Auto paint as many of the boat builders in Eastern Europe and the UAE are now using Auto paint.

So Question am I being spun a yarn ???

Will post some more photos shortly, the one below is for a laugh.... the platform can take my weight :lol:

Cheers

Les
BCC6D880-85EB-4F64-BB42-E9D74CE97A17.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:45 am
by les2021
Oops :doh:

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:24 am
by fallguy1000
Auto paint.

Generally, auto paint is covered with clearcoats. I had some auto paint guys offer to paint my boat, but at the last minute they opted out and said they were afraid it wouldn't be good enough.

But two part urethanes are very good.

Imron gets lots of use in marine.

Personally, I would apply any paint choice on a sample of foam and immerse it for 14 days and see if it blisters..

I made the mistake of buying all my paint first.

Then told is does poor in immersion testing...

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:51 pm
by Jaysen
automotive paint above the water line would work. problem is that it is pretty finicky. It weathers better. It doesn't like to move though. Then there's the clear coat problem. I have spent most of the his week yelling at paint on a Viking 50. If you are going to paint, use a high quality, 2 part, repairable poly like EMC/Quantum or Awlgrip. These one part poly and epoxy paints are killing me quickly.

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:49 pm
by TomW1
Jaysen hit the nail on the head, auto paint is more brittle than yacht paint and does not have the flexibility that a boat needs which is not all that much but more than a car.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 1:44 pm
by les2021
Evening Guys

Apologise for not posting lately. Thanks Jaysen / Tom / Dan for your comments on the auto paint subject. I have a local guy who has painted lots of boats in my area so I am tracking down owners and asking questions. If I am not happy it will be me and a roller !!!

I am working many hours at the moment trying to brake the back of all this dreaded fairing, I am not sure who is winning me or the beast. This is one mother of a boat.....

I have been busy finishing the wings / wind shield / sheer clamps ( I think that's what you call them ) setting out seating and helm etc / drilling all the last through hull outlets and dry fitting cleats / windlass etc.

I have made moulds and formed my idea of the engine compartment air intake vents, just trying to locate some fine square grills to finish them off. These have taken hours of painful work but I think they look ok ??? So guys I am about to cut some very large holes in the beast.... any feedback would be gratefully received. These give me 30 square inches of air each side, and I have fitted two extractors to draw the air out, these are mounted about 400mm in from the transom on port and starboard side.

Sorry as usual for the lousy photos :lol:

Cheers

Les
74BE492F-371F-4F45-9859-B28B8262B8B1.jpeg
8858F53E-79F2-420E-9143-7DC601920B6D.png
More to follow

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 1:57 pm
by les2021
Evening Guys

Apologise for not posting lately. Thanks Jaysen / Tom / Dan for your comments on the auto paint subject. I have a local guy who has painted lots of boats in my area so I am tracking down owners and asking questions. If I am not happy it will be me and a roller !!!

I am working many hours at the moment trying to brake the back of all this dreaded fairing, I am not sure who is winning me or the beast. This is one mother of a boat.....

I have been busy finishing the wings / wind shield / sheer clamps ( I think that's what you call them ) setting out seating and helm etc / drilling all the last through hull outlets and dry fitting cleats / windlass etc.

I have made moulds and formed my idea of the engine compartment air intake vents, just trying to locate some fine square grills to finish them off. These have taken hours of painful work but I think they look ok ??? So guys I am about to cut some very large holes in the beast.... any feedback would be gratefully received. These give me 30 square inches of air each side, and I have fitted two extractors to draw the air out, these are mounted about 400mm in from the transom on port and starboard side.

Sorry as usual for the lousy photos :lol:

Cheers

Les
D4D5474A-5571-452F-B580-D0FBC2B8A661.jpeg
D4D5474A-5571-452F-B580-D0FBC2B8A661.jpeg
More to follow


D4D5474A-5571-452F-B580-D0FBC2B8A661.jpeg
CFDA7373-EAA6-4234-9C54-BBBE9C1443D5.jpeg
ACA84998-3C62-46B3-B85E-FC05B9EF9606.jpeg
E8249389-76F2-4C3E-A7FE-B3A5139B9820.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 2:00 pm
by les2021
236D2428-861C-4241-AF4F-16B6F4EC08D5.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 2:01 pm
by les2021
You may have grasped posting photos is not my speciality !!!!!

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:28 pm
by Fuzz
Ok so your picture posting skills might be a little lacking. For damn sure there is nothing lacking with your boat building skills. That is one fine looking build!

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:57 am
by Jeff
Good update!!! Jeff

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:11 am
by les2021
Afternoon Guys

Cheers Fuzz / Jeff

With comments like that Fuzz you could become my new best mate :lol: If you are in the area pop in for a beer or two...

And then there were 2
388E5276-13B3-4D00-9BB2-2155AD613A37.jpeg
Made and fitted the grilles today, tomorrow cut rather large holes in the beast :help:

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:22 pm
by les2021
Evening All

Fitted both the air intake vents, so much work but really happy with the result. Thanks Dan for your go for it post.
44D91280-D539-4EC4-B419-2862853A1A3D.jpeg
546BC71A-D948-419C-BCE7-EA38EF529E07.png
Today was spring clean day.... dropped al the scaffold and emptied the boat shed, pressured washed everywhere. Tomorrow I am going to start the final hull fairing before the paint job.... can't wait to do more fairing !!!!
6AF23A4F-12AE-4C3D-8EFA-A4C7A00250BA.jpeg
Sorry about the legs.....

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:29 pm
by OrangeQuest
Nice looking vents! Standing beside your boat, you make that boat look really big!

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 3:04 pm
by fallguy1000
Mask at all times dirty Les. I have a spot on my lung; think it might he silica.

You will need to shroud those vents, no? From rain or big sea splash..

She really looking like a boat now.

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 11:51 am
by Jeff
She is looking really good!!! Jeff

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2023 5:58 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Thought I better let you know why there have been no posts lately....

Well the first reason was good, I had a 6 day fishing competition in Holland and then a 5 day match back in the UK :D

Got ready to get back to work on the boat but the weather has gone mad, just checked the temperature in the boat shed 110 degrees and not even the hottest part of the day.... The main job at the moment is keeping all the combustible stuff cold and praying we do not get a wildfire near us, it is very scary at the moment as wildfires are everywhere and I have a very big lump of uninsured boat behind the house surrounded by olive trees.

Will post when I can get back to work.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:01 am
by Jeff
Les, I hope all goes well for you!! the fires are crazy again this year!!! Jeff

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2023 12:08 pm
by fallguy1000
Be ready with the chainsaw and waterhose!

Good luck Les...scary, indeed, epoxy burns hot and fast, fire is the primary concern of any foam/epoxy boat..

Re: LB26

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:34 pm
by TomW1
Good luck Les. Will keep you in my prayers. I know how scary a wildfire can be, a few years back one got to within to .1 miles, .161km of my house but it had a road and a river to jump and they stopped it. It looks like the wild fires over in Greece and heat are nasty.

Tom

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:30 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

Thanks for the good luck messages, we are ok at the moment ( roll on autumn )

So my patience ran out waiting for the temperature to drop and decided to try and top coat the hull !!! ( idiot ) So this is what has happened so far.... I am using International Paints One Up base coat and Toplac Pro. The Data sheet says it can be used up to 36 degrees I WOULD LIKE TO DISAGREE !!!!

Base coat went on fine and that was where it stopped going right.

First try at top coat bad orange peel.... sand it back, so second time set the alarm for 3am...cooler about 29 degrees orange peel... sand it back.

So spoke with Tech department in the UK so they suggested upping the thinner content to 20 percent BUT no more.

It was at this stage I decided to bring in the US Navy..... a friend of a friend knows someone at the base down the road at Souda who bless him lent me some portable aircon units.

So attempt number 3 !!! set the alarm 3am started the aircons at 8pm sun set... Temperature about 22 degrees ( perfect ) I was dreading going to look the next morning morning, MUCH better but still orange peel.

HELP :help: :help: :help:

So a question to all you painting experts out there, how can I get around this problem.

I wash the boat down with Acetone, soapy water, clean water, dust down before painting. I am using a 4" high density foam roller, I line the tray with foil, I keep the lid on the paint once mixed and only take out small amounts at a time. The paint goes on really well !!!

What am I doing wrong ??? I am close to giving the boat to the US Navy for target practise :( :( :(

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:55 pm
by fallguy1000
Show me a picture of the roller.

Is the paint two part or one part?

You can never go back. So you roll and never reroll.

But my hunch is your rollers are too thick.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:29 am
by les2021
Morning Dan

The paint is one pack the only thing added is the Thinner 100.

The only time I go back over is the wet edge, I try do do about 2" panels sheer to chine so as not to loose the wet edge.

I have put a pen next to the rollers so you have something to gauge it by.

Cheers

Les
B147AC79-9436-40D8-840E-E3E42E7323F0.jpeg

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:41 am
by fallguy1000
So, a couple observations from across the Atlantic and then some.

1. I prefer a bit wider roller for the main hull. 150-180mm or so. Any bigger and the roller will walk funny.

Consider the overlaps. If you use a 100mm wide roller; and you overlap ?20mm each pass; you are applying an extra 20% paint that must flow each time. At 180mm, the same 20mm overlap is 11% extra paint to flow vs 20% or about half.

2. The maximum roller thickness needs to be 3mm. Same story. If you load a 6mm roller cover; it is literally double the paint. Make sure you offload the roller well. One direction; usually 5-10 passes offloading.

3. The surface must be perfectly flat. If you start with orange; topcoat will not fix it. Your first coat should be applied at 180-220 grit. If you start with orange or dimpling after primer sanding; not enough primer is down.

4. The surface will start out and end with some orange peel. It is impossible to avoid without tipping. How much is the only question.

So, let's say you start out and primer is not orange peeled; perfectly flat and sanded to 180 grit.

The 180 grit surface is rather 'sticky'. You would put a coat or two of toplac down or up to 3 (no sanding)but I'd go two. Then sand it two 220 grit which is less sticky. But you must sand it flat! No orange peel, probably primer will bleed through. Overthinner in the early topcoat is bad. You want some orangpeel, like it or not.

Then a couple more coats...maybe with a tiny bit of thinner. Or thin as you go with a small capful of thinner mixed right in the tray. The paint is losing its solvent as you offload the roller and so maybe halfway down the boat; add a capful this time. It should look better, but some orangepeel.

Two coats again or so.

Then sand with 320 grit. This paper needs to be changed often. I prefer sanding with a festool rts400. For two part paints, I am getting only about 4 square feet or about a half a square meter or so per sheet before they stop cutting. Lotsa sandpaper ends up in the bin.


Again, there should be no orange peel or you sanded poorly. If you see a spot or two of orangepeel and don't want to sand further; expect orange peel on follow on coats. This is key. Even in the final sanding pass; when you see an area with sanding not flat enough; you will know the finish will not be perfect. I had a few areas I gave up on, but not too many. I had some fisheye issues related to the paint trays.

Then you can try for a final coat with thinner paint. If you don't like it; again only all the way to 400 grit.

Each successive grit will reduce the amount of paint that 'sticks' to the surface. So, it is vital your roller is super thin 3mm max thickness and wide enough to not overlap too much.

Hope this helps. The challenge for you is sourcing the 3mm by 180mm rollers. They also cannot have a seam!

here is my favorite paint roller cover in the world at 7" width

You may contact them and see if there is a regional distribution; but be careful; they sell a split/seamed roller and those will not work.

https://www.nour.com/foam/wound-foam-refil-3-mm

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:51 am
by Jaysen
Alternatively… spray. I avoided it way too long but once you figure it out you’ll never consider rolling again.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:59 am
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Sun Aug 27, 2023 10:51 am Alternatively… spray. I avoided it way too long but once you figure it out you’ll never consider rolling again.
Also, not bad advice. Spraying is not without nuance, but it is less laborius. I did not have a good enough air dryer for my compressor, for example. But you can buy sprayers that don't require compressed air.

spraying isocyanates also should have positive air systems to avoid killing any newbies here

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:39 am
by les2021
Morning Dan

From reading your reply I am I think carrying out the process roughly as you say, the roller could be the issue though. Also I feel the hull is too hot and because I am in basically a tent it is like an oven, the aircon units do not work as they should in this environment.

If I am understanding correct the less paint is best ? and orange peel is ok until the last coat making sure you have lost all the orange peel with 400 grit, then a thinned down final coat ( then pray !!! ) When rolling to get the paint on to the surface are you saying you should only go one way ? so start the roller at the top and go down to the chine then repeat ? this relates to your comment about not going over and over the area more than necessary, the tricky part is not getting dry spots... Sorry if these question sound stupid it is just that I have to get this right somehow.

I tried to contact the roller company you suggested but they do not respond, I wonder if it is because I am over here it goes straight into a spam file.... If you have the time I would be grateful if you could drop them a mail and see if they a UK or European outlets.

I am of to Holland for a fishing competition next week so I am going to stop work until I get back and hope the temperatures will have dropped.

Jaysen I love the idea of spraying but I think I would need to practise quite a bit before attempting over 20sqm of hull :help:

Cheers for all the advice, please keep it coming this one is really wearing me down.... it is a monster hull to keep sanding in these temperatures !!

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:14 am
by les2021
Dan

I have just received an email from Bob Shaw Nour Painting Tools Canada to say those sleeves are only available to buy by the container load !!! from Egypt....

So not sure I can buy them, I will search but not looking good.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:17 am
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:14 am Dan

I have just received an email from Bob Shaw Nour Painting Tools Canada to say those sleeves are only available to buy by the container load !!! from Egypt....

So not sure I can buy them, I will search but not looking good.

Cheers

Les
Call Noah's Marine in Toronto and ask for Jason Steeves and see if he'll ship you a case.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:30 am
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:39 am Morning Dan

From reading your reply I am I think carrying out the process roughly as you say, the roller could be the issue though. Also I feel the hull is too hot and because I am in basically a tent it is like an oven, the aircon units do not work as they should in this environment.

If I am understanding correct the less paint is best ? and orange peel is ok until the last coat making sure you have lost all the orange peel with 400 grit, then a thinned down final coat ( then pray !!! ) When rolling to get the paint on to the surface are you saying you should only go one way ? so start the roller at the top and go down to the chine then repeat ? this relates to your comment about not going over and over the area more than necessary, the tricky part is not getting dry spots... Sorry if these question sound stupid it is just that I have to get this right somehow.

I tried to contact the roller company you suggested but they do not respond, I wonder if it is because I am over here it goes straight into a spam file.... If you have the time I would be grateful if you could drop them a mail and see if they a UK or European outlets.

I am of to Holland for a fishing competition next week so I am going to stop work until I get back and hope the temperatures will have dropped.

Jaysen I love the idea of spraying but I think I would need to practise quite a bit before attempting over 20sqm of hull :help:

Cheers for all the advice, please keep it coming this one is really wearing me down.... it is a monster hull to keep sanding in these temperatures !!

Les
I did not ever say to only roll one way. The roller must go over the area enough to make the coat even, but not so much paint it cannot be repeated all the way. And you cannot make large overlaps, but you must attempt to make even the overlaps evened out after you apply the paint.

The simple idea is to lay down a thin, very even coat of paint. But early coat thinning lowers the build rate for coats to be sanded. Thinning paint is often poorly understood by us diy folks. The purpose for thinning is to get the paint to lay down well, but it can't happen if the other conditions are not met.

You don't need to use Nour if you cannot find them, but a 3mm non-seamed foam roller is best.

Orange peel is basically hills of excess paint, or paint that has not flowed out. But too thick a roller and too narrow a rolller cover is causing lots of trouble because it is resulting in too many layers of paint. However, orange peel early is a fact of life. You just have to get to the final finish and hope for less; or tip it all. Tipping is not ez either. But tipping may help you understand if you are flowing too much paint with the roller.

Re: LB26

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:49 am
by fallguy1000
Let me know if you can buy a case from Canada.

I ordered these on Amazon today. They may work if seamless

FoamPRO 207 Faom Paint Rollers, 7" x 3/16" https://a.co/d/2i107fW

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:32 am
by fallguy1000
Well, the foampro rollers I bought are seamed; so no go.

How goes the battle Les?

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 6:05 am
by les2021
Afternoon Dan

Bum !!! I have just got back from my fishing match in Holland. Nicki is in the UK visiting family and is bringing back the foampro rollers.....

I will ring her and set her a task to find the right rollers before she gets back next on Tuesday :D Wish me luck !!

Will let you know how it goes, the good news is the temperatures are dropping.

Cheers

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:18 am
by les2021
Morning All

Well Dan I have at last managed to get the boat painted as the temperatures have now dropped enough to get the hull temperature low enough not to evaporate the thinners. It has been a real trial of patience and frustration and has cost many cold beers to get me trough :D

I had a couple of little orange peel areas but I have buffed them out and I am happy with the results, is it factory finish no.... is it perfect no... but then I was once told seeking perfection is the road to ruin !!! As a first venture into boat build I am over the moon and looking forward to the next stage.

All the through hole fittings and cleats / fareleads / windlass / tank fill etc are in place and fitted, I have checked all pipe connections etc and am about to glue and tape cockpit walls, so I am now going onto the fun fitting out part.

Will once again post some very bad photos.

Cheers All
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:53 am
by jbo_c
Looks very nice.

Jbo

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:56 am
by pee wee
Once I clicked on your photos and saw them in the correct orientation, I could tell what I was looking at- and it looks good!

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:28 am
by jbo_c
Funny, PeeWee.

I couldn’t figure out what the pics were either until they got correctly oriented.

Jbo

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:18 am
by les2021
Morning

Cheers guys,

I do constantly apologise for my photo skills..... :help: When I add them they are in the correct orientation, when I post them they are not :x

Will post some more at the weekend and lets see what happens :doh:

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:02 am
by pee wee
les2021 wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:18 am When I add them they are in the correct orientation, when I post them they are not :x
It's IT's fault!! :lol: It's one of the side effects with the new website or gallery, I don't know about that stuff. Other posters have said that if you edit the photos in any way before posting, then they show up correctly, I'm not sure about that but you could try it.

Re: LB26

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:06 am
by Jaysen
Well yes. We updated to photo library that says “unless indicated otherwise, pixel 0 is upper left”. So which ever way your camera labels pixel 0 IN THE JPEG that’s upper left. Your photo app reads meta data not the jpeg. But once you EDIT the photo, the new pixel 0 is properly indexed in the actual jpeg.

Alternatively use the proper phpBB gallery software, rotate images in the gallery’s editor and use the bbcode tags and fit all works properly.

IT provided the solution a couple years back. Here’s the thread from 2020 … 😁 viewtopic.php?t=64990

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:19 am
by les2021
Hi Guys

So now not only do I need to learn to build a boat I have got to become a TECHNO :lol: :lol: :lol: Thanks !!!!

A subject I am not confident with as well is electrics.... I will get a marine electrian to help when it comes to the final fit out but at the moment I need to buy 10m 3 core tinned cable to go from my shore power socket to the fuse board. The shore socket is 16A/ 250V If I have worked it out right I need a 3core 2.5mm tinned cable, being cautious I would quite happily go up to a 4mm 3core. Can anyone give advice on this subject ???

I am fitting the following

Fridge 32 watts
Windlass 1000w
Hob 1200w
Water Tank 72w
Waste Tank 72w
2 x bilge pumps 208w
WC 300w
Nav instruments ???
Lights ???
Cockets ???
Engine ???
3 x batteries Engine / House / Windlas, Bow Thruster

Any help would be great.

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 11:20 pm
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:19 am Hi Guys

So now not only do I need to learn to build a boat I have got to become a TECHNO :lol: :lol: :lol: Thanks !!!!

A subject I am not confident with as well is electrics.... I will get a marine electrian to help when it comes to the final fit out but at the moment I need to buy 10m 3 core tinned cable to go from my shore power socket to the fuse board. The shore socket is 16A/ 250V If I have worked it out right I need a 3core 2.5mm tinned cable, being cautious I would quite happily go up to a 4mm 3core. Can anyone give advice on this subject ???

I am fitting the following

Fridge 32 watts
Windlass 1000w
Hob 1200w
Water Tank 72w
Waste Tank 72w
2 x bilge pumps 208w
WC 300w
Nav instruments ???
Lights ???
Cockets ???
Engine ???
3 x batteries Engine / House / Windlas, Bow Thruster

Any help would be great.

Cheers

Les
The electrical system is truly a complex matter.

A bare minimum is 100amp hour house battery and a start battery. Did you build a locker?

Have you planned a charger?

The engine should charge the start and top off the house. But that charge current must be controlled.

To make matters harder, here in the US, we always use american wire gauge, not metric system.

Wire sizing for the shore power at 16amp is sized at 3% drop, rate to 20 amp is unusual, here in US is 30amp

For AC, 20 amp ckt is 12 ga or 2.5mm.
For DC, 20 amp is based in wire length, but for 20 feet, 3% drop, that is 8 ga or 6mm or 8mm wire.
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Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2023 10:19 am
by les2021
Afternoon All

Cheers Dan, it seems buying 3 core tinned cable over here is not straight forward... they seem to use single core cable and tie them into looms !!! Is that a normal process in boat wiring ?

Anyway I have been concentrating on the cockpit, I have glued and taped the cockpit walls and filled and faired ( more fairing :lol: ) All gone well, fender lockers were a pain in the A..... but ready for door and frames will mount the ceiling hooks for the fenders tomorrow.
Glued and taped the engine box today along with the seating wall bearers.

Right here we go lets post a couple of upside down photos :help:
22130915-1545-4268-8055-C1B75EC54257.jpeg
49AA6B80-FFE2-407B-A264-5AFCC64B3481.jpeg
Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2023 10:33 am
by Jeff
Nice work Les!!! Jeff

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 10:55 am
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 10:19 am Afternoon All

Cheers Dan, it seems buying 3 core tinned cable over here is not straight forward... they seem to use single core cable and tie them into looms !!! Is that a normal process in boat wiring ?

Anyway I have been concentrating on the cockpit, I have glued and taped the cockpit walls and filled and faired ( more fairing :lol: ) All gone well, fender lockers were a pain in the A..... but ready for door and frames will mount the ceiling hooks for the fenders tomorrow.
Glued and taped the engine box today along with the seating wall bearers.

Right here we go lets post a couple of upside down photos :help:

22130915-1545-4268-8055-C1B75EC54257.jpeg49AA6B80-FFE2-407B-A264-5AFCC64B3481.jpeg

Cheers

Les
Combining wires to get to the current carrying requirements is acceptable. I recommend you get the Ancor crimper. Here in the US, it is required to label each end of each wire which is very helpful when things go wrong, especially at sea. I bought a large lug crimper as well. No solder is done on boats.

I also purchased a large wire crimper for the battery wiring.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:53 pm
by les2021
Hi All
I love looking at all the builds on the forum, Pappa Dave your work is so neat it is a joy to look at, and lets talk FAIRING.... I have contacted the World Heath Authority and ask them to have fairing registered as a disease :lol: Who ever invented fairing compound must be a very rich person !!!
Thought it was time to post an update.
I have been putting in the hours before the weather stops me which will be in about three weeks. I need to get all the big glassing done and I am nearly there. tidying up to be done but happy the way it's going.
Seating all but done, Helm position nearly there, fender lockers done just need to make the doors. Cabin ready for final fill, Head wall and door frame fitted today, galley and head cupboard bases fitted today.
One thing for sure there is one hell of a mountain of work in this beast.
Head door curing on the dinning room table ( Nicki says it's fine ) :help: Trust me I am a lucky boat builder.....
So it only leaves me to try a post some photos !!!! sorry in advance !!!
Cheers
Les
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Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 1:00 pm
by les2021
Ok

I did warn you... I add photos direct from my photo library and they are the right way up, I attach them and they end up upside down, can't see anyway of editing them !!!
Click on the photo and it comes up the right way up...
I think I need to go back to school :lol: :lol: :lol:
Sorry guys.
Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:40 pm
by cape man
Wow! Looking awesome! Getting closer...

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:34 am
by pee wee
It's coming together nicely!

Re: LB26

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:51 am
by fallguy1000
For sanding coves on inside corners, I purchased a set of 3" pipe nipples or various dimensions. Then wrap sandpaper around the pipe; sand, fill repeat to finish desired

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:34 am
by les2021
Morning All

Just a quick post to say thanks for all the great advice and comments from all you builders this year.

The boat shed is now been officially closed as the order has been delivered from "she who will be obeyed" :lol: :lol: :lol:

So my best wishes to all and have a wonderful Christmas and a very healthy New Year.

Oh and plenty of boat building.... :D :D :D

Cheers

Les

Re: LB26

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:41 pm
by fallguy1000
les2021 wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:34 am Morning All

Just a quick post to say thanks for all the great advice and comments from all you builders this year.

The boat shed is now been officially closed as the order has been delivered from "she who will be obeyed" :lol: :lol: :lol:

So my best wishes to all and have a wonderful Christmas and a very healthy New Year.

Oh and plenty of boat building.... :D :D :D

Cheers

Les
You are the Captain, Les. But she is the admiral.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:46 am
by David 9 boats
I used disposable sanding drums with rubber mandrels for fillets for the first pass, then went to hand sanding. There may still be a 45 degree 3/8" variable drill motor on the market. Sioux brand or third party copies. I wore out two, and took a lot of life out of the third one before we launched. I also used a LOT of those fiber disks, 3M and similar brands. On large areas, I used a high speed polisher with the 3/4" foam pad, sticky or hook and loop. Looks like a grinder, but only turns about 2000rpm. I will look for pictures.

Re: LB26

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:50 pm
by Fuzz
David 9 boats wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:46 am I used disposable sanding drums with rubber mandrels for fillets for the first pass, then went to hand sanding. There may still be a 45 degree 3/8" variable drill motor on the market. Sioux brand or third party copies. I wore out two, and took a lot of life out of the third one before we launched. I also used a LOT of those fiber disks, 3M and similar brands. On large areas, I used a high speed polisher with the 3/4" foam pad, sticky or hook and loop. Looks like a grinder, but only turns about 2000rpm. I will look for pictures.
Love your user name! Makes me feel better about the number of boats I have :lol: