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NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:44 am
by bklake
So let's say I win the lottery and want to use NidaPlast panels for a sole. jacquesmm has stated in other threads that he likes this material for the sole. It seems to save about 36 pounds per sheet over meranti of the same thickness.

Do you use the same thickness Nidaplast as the ply that is in the plans or go thicker. I'm planning the HB16 which has basically 24" on center stringers. Would this even be appropriate to use on the HB16?

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:22 am
by fallguy1000
I am familiar with plascore pp with veil panels. The lowest thickness I'd use in a sole is 3/4", but inch is better. Plascore can be ordered in 5x10 sheets. Freight will kill you, but the sheets are not expensive. I don't think nida is all that bad either costwise. Just the freight is a bear these days..

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:23 am
by jacquesmm
Just as Fallguy said. It has to be thicker. I was going to say 1", he proposes 3/4 minimum.
I have seen many soles made that way and they were always 1" or more.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:06 pm
by cape_fisherman
I'm not sure what you meant by winning the lottery...most of the honeycomb products are in priced inline with standard marine fir a/b ply (usually less expensive than the same thickness), and way less expensive than okume ply. I would tend to double the thickness of the nida over the same thickness of ply. For a sole, I would tend to lean toward 1 1/2" nida for standard direct replacement...two layers of 1700 per side.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:26 pm
by bklake
12mm meranti is $105 per sheet plus epoxy and fiberglass. 25mm Nidaplast is $323. These prices are from our sponsor here. I guess when you add up the cost of ply+fiberglass+epoxy+time, the total cost isn't that far apart.

The Nidaplast Panels are pre made with biax on each side over the honeycomb core. No vacuum bagging of infusion needed.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:41 pm
by Fuzz
Those pre-made panels are very nice and great for some uses but I would not use them for a deck. I would buy the panels with no glass, cut to fit, and then glass them as Capefisherman suggested. The cost will not be much higher than 1/2inch plywood but it will be a real nice deck.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:57 pm
by TomW1
capefisherman and Fuzz why two layers of 1700 per side? I would do a layer of epoxy neet each side and then one layer of 1200 biax over 35mm on the top only. On the bottom just a neet layer of epoxy. The Nida core is already water resistant, rot resistant and chemical resistant. At 38(1.5")mm it is much stronger than 3/4" plywood with 12oz biax fiberglass on both sides. And it will probably cost less doing it this way.

You guys have me questioning why use Nida core/NidaPlast!

Tom

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:19 pm
by Fuzz
Tom with just neat epoxy it would be very flimsy. It is just light weight plastic honeycomb with no structural strength. 24oz of epoxied biax "might" make things stiff enough but I feel like 34oz will get the job done with no worries. By the way even with two layers of 1708 on one side it is still pretty flexible. Flexible enough to put a fair amount of crown in a deck. Lay it down and then glass the top side and you have one nice deck.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:27 pm
by Jaysen
The only reason for not using ply is fear of core rot. Other than that wood is still the best option for the cost to weight to longevity ratios.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:35 pm
by cape_fisherman
The honeycombs are useful for weight savings...it will give you the lightest product possible. They also offer superior sound insulating properties.

You need glass on both sides for rigidity...as has already been said.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:41 pm
by cape_fisherman
bklake wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:26 pm 12mm meranti is $105 per sheet plus epoxy and fiberglass. 25mm Nidaplast is $323. These prices are from our sponsor here. I guess when you add up the cost of ply+fiberglass+epoxy+time, the total cost isn't that far apart.

The Nidaplast Panels are pre made with biax on each side over the honeycomb core. No vacuum bagging of infusion needed.
38mm (1.5") NidaCore (4x7 sheet) & Carbon Core (4x8 sheet) are about half of what you quoted the 25mm Nidaplast. I just did a quick Google search & they are $155 & $125 respectively. Two layers of 1700 on either side will give you a perfectly acceptable sole.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:44 pm
by cape_fisherman
Jaysen wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:27 pm The only reason for not using ply is fear of core rot. Other than that wood is still the best option for the cost to weight to longevity ratios.
I would say that on a cost/weight ratio, honeycomb beats ply all to pieces...seeing as they will be very similar in cost.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:12 pm
by bklake
Great discussion. Nidaplast panels, sold here, are pre made. 17oz biax+mat on both sides.

I'm sure I could make panels but I don't want to start another learning adventure and I don't have room to set up for laminating 4x8 sheets. I'm betting that Nida has the facilities and equipment to make panels far better than I could. I need 4 sheets and past history tells me that I won't get it right until panel 5 so I would have to re-do everything doubling the cost of raw materials. One day, I will learn this skill but not for this build.

My goal is to reduce weight. The listed weight of the panel is a lot lot less than the weight of a sheet of ply. The sole of the HB16 is 12mm ply with no fiberglass, just sealed. The main problem to solve is: What thickness of honeycomb will equal the strength/stiffness of ply? We have several answers that are close. 3/4 to 1 1/2 inch. Oops, trying to switch to metric thinking so 19-37mm. The cost of the Nidaplast Panel is 3x the cost of a sheet of meranti. I would add a layer of fiberglass because sand, mud, dogs, and stuff would eat through neat epoxy pretty quickly. Makes it 2x the cost of just plywood. 4 sheets of this actually won't add that much to the cost of the build.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:08 pm
by cape_fisherman
That's a fine decision...but I have to wonder...

You said that you don't want the "adventure" of glassing the panels, but then go on to say that you'd add another layer of glass to the panels. I'm curious why you would pay that much more money just to spend even more on it? "To me" it makes more sense to spend half the money on the panel & simply glass it. But that's me. Oh...and you don't have to glass the entire 4x8 panel. Cut your pattern first, and then glass. That way you aren't glassing the wasted pieces.

Not to worry...I'm just thinking out loud.

The honeycomb is certainly the way to go. A friend of mine has used 3", glassed with two layers of 1700 each side, over a 16' unsupported span in the salon of a sportfisher. Worked fine, and helped suppress the sound of the engine room below.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:46 pm
by TomW1
Fuzz wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:19 pm Tom with just neat epoxy it would be very flimsy. It is just light weight plastic honeycomb with no structural strength. 24oz of epoxied biax "might" make things stiff enough but I feel like 34oz will get the job done with no worries. By the way even with two layers of 1708 on one side it is still pretty flexible. Flexible enough to put a fair amount of crown in a deck. Lay it down and then glass the top side and you have one nice deck.
Fuzz I totally disagree a 38mm panel is 1.5 inches thick, it has over 55296 1 inch cells in it. Each linked by a wall. That board will flex less than a 3/4 inch piece of plywood. It is not made of plastic it is made of an engineered component and is super strong. If the boat is built with the frames in place there is no problem. I have seen Nidacore span 8' without support, without heavy fiberglassing. You just have to engineer the thickness to the design.

In this case the HB has stringers, etc that will support it there is no need for double 17oz fiberglass top and bottom. The NidaPlast is also chemical, water and rot resistant so no need for a layer of fiberglass on the bottom. Just coat it with epoxy for some extra protection.

If you want to use NidaPlast and put two layers of 1708 on both sides you might as well buy 1/2" Meranti and put one layer of 1700 on both sides. 50 lbs for the ply plus 18 for the fiberglass and epoxy. Vs 25 plus 40 for the 1708. The plans only require 12oz on both sides.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:40 pm
by fallguy1000
The forum is dropping my logins and my drafts... arghp

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:47 pm
by fallguy1000
TomW1 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:46 pm
Fuzz wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:19 pm Tom with just neat epoxy it would be very flimsy. It is just light weight plastic honeycomb with no structural strength. 24oz of epoxied biax "might" make things stiff enough but I feel like 34oz will get the job done with no worries. By the way even with two layers of 1708 on one side it is still pretty flexible. Flexible enough to put a fair amount of crown in a deck. Lay it down and then glass the top side and you have one nice deck.
Fuzz I totally disagree a 38mm panel is 1.5 inches thick, it has over 55296 1 inch cells in it. Each linked by a wall. That board will flex less than a 3/4 inch piece of plywood. It is not made of plastic it is made of an engineered component and is super strong. If the boat is built with the frames in place there is no problem. I have seen Nidacore span 8' without support, without heavy fiberglassing. You just have to engineer the thickness to the design.

In this case the HB has stringers, etc that will support it there is no need for double 17oz fiberglass top and bottom. The NidaPlast is also chemical, water and rot resistant so no need for a layer of fiberglass on the bottom. Just coat it with epoxy for some extra protection.

If you want to use NidaPlast and put two layers of 1700 on both sides you might as well buy 1/2" Meranti and put one layer of 1700 on each side. It would provide the same stiffness according to you. 8O
This is incorrect.

The material is in tension on the bottom and it must be glassed or it will sag like mad.

If you compare 3/4" ply with 5 oz epoxy bottom and 12 oz glass and epoxy top; a ply panel is 80 pounds.

A one inch plascore panel with 68 ounces per yard glass and epoxy and say 8 ounces per yard wetout is say 11.5# core and say 33 pounds glass n epoxy for a total of 45 pounds or about 55% the weight of ply.

Downside is it won't hold screws, but technically, that is an upside because you can't 'screw' it up and rot it out.

It does cost more for the never rot feature. It also adds more buoyancy to the vessel by virtue of its thickness less weight.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:57 pm
by fallguy1000
Not to be a nit, but the plascore with only veil and epoxy will severely crack underfoot. It is not made to support say a 100 pound foot load. The resin is far too brittle in the veil. It would be like putting epoxy on cardboard and walking on it.

My one inch thick plascore panels span 53" with about 42 ounces glass each side. They still sag some. I am trying to decide if to add a small beam under them. Mostly worried about group hugs.

For a well supported sole, you could skip one layer of glass on top and save say 25% of the glass n epoxy weight.

And not to be a super nit (I am one), but if you let epoxy and two layers of 1708 cure both sides; that panel will only bend for a day or two; once a week goes by; it will take the shape of how its been setting.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:31 am
by Fuzz
Tow I think we are talking about two different things. I am speaking about NidaPlast or NidaCore. The unfinished panels with no glass on them. With no glass on them they are very flexible. If you only have glass on ONE side they are still flexible. Flexible enough that it is easy to put 1/2 inch crown per foot in them. When you glass the second side it locks the shape in and produces the I-beam effect. The cost/weight delta is small between 1/2 inch and 1.5 inch material. The stiffness delta of a finished panel between .5 inch and 1.5 inch is huge. You also get the added bonus of good sound and heat insulation.
By the way foam works the same way. You can glass one side, bend it and then lock in the shape with glass on the other side.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:56 am
by TomW1
Fuzz wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:31 am Tow I think we are talking about two different things. I am speaking about NidaPlast or NidaCore. The unfinished panels with no glass on them. With no glass on them they are very flexible. If you only have glass on ONE side they are still flexible. Flexible enough that it is easy to put 1/2 inch crown per foot in them. When you glass the second side it locks the shape in and produces the I-beam effect. The cost/weight delta is small between 1/2 inch and 1.5 inch material. The stiffness delta of a finished panel between .5 inch and 1.5 inch is huge. You also get the added bonus of good sound and heat insulation.
By the way foam works the same way. You can glass one side, bend it and then lock in the shape with glass on the other side.
Okay Fuzz I am going to drop this subject because my experience with Nidacore etc. is obviously different.
Tom

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:20 pm
by bklake
cape_fisherman wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:08 pm That's a fine decision...but I have to wonder...

You said that you don't want the "adventure" of glassing the panels, but then go on to say that you'd add another layer of glass to the panels. I'm curious why you would pay that much more money just to spend even more on it? "To me" it makes more sense to spend half the money on the panel & simply glass it. But that's me. Oh...and you don't have to glass the entire 4x8 panel. Cut your pattern first, and then glass. That way you aren't glassing the wasted pieces.

Not to worry...I'm just thinking out loud.

The honeycomb is certainly the way to go. A friend of mine has used 3", glassed with two layers of 1700 each side, over a 16' unsupported span in the salon of a sportfisher. Worked fine, and helped suppress the sound of the engine room below.
To clarify, 1 layer of glass over plywood. Plans don't specify any glass over ply. I would use the NidaPlast Panels as they come.

I have not explored honeycomb laminating very much. My impressions was that you need a vacuum set-up to make parts. I will look into this further because it looks like NidaPlast H8PP, sold here, seems like it is designed to be laminated just like plywood. Nida-Core has many products. You have to pay attention to the name/model/specification for the correct procedure for laminating. I know how to work with plywood and epoxy. Never tried honeycombs. If it is just like ply, I'm in.

The sole spans about 20" between stringers on the HB16. The core thickness to span 20" is what is important here. It doesn't need to be thick enough to span 8 feet. I have a working knowledge of composite structures especially what you can and cannot do. I understand hard points, edge treatments, point loads, spans, etc. What I don't know is if the sole of the HB16 is critical to the overall hull strength. If so, is the honeycomb panel is strong enough to do the job.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:30 pm
by Fuzz
This is just for info for those who are thinking of using honeycomb.
Image
Two hatches for my SeaSport. One is factory built and one I made. The factory one is 1/2 inch plywood with glass and extra bracing. The other is 3/4 honeycomb with no extra bracing.
Image
The factory used matt and poly but they did a very good job as the hatch is still good after 35 years. Mine is 1700, two layers each side, and epoxy.Factory hatch is 31 by 43 inch span and weighs 14.8 kg.
Other one is is 34 by 29, span is 34 and weighs 7.2 kg.
Both hatches have held up well to 300lb guys walking on them.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:13 am
by Matt Gent
I can confirm that Nidacore or similar honeycomb is a wet noodle without glass layers on either side. The scrim is only there to absorb resin for laminating glass on it.

It is shockingly stiff, and great on stiffness/weight, with just the single 17oz as they supply it pre-skinned (both sides). I'm convinced that is the way to go for soles, and interior bulkheads, if you care at all about weight. The penalty for going thicker on the honeycomb height is very small - almost no weight added. Just think about the packaging, and how you deal with the cut edges around the perimeter. Modern aircraft use honeycomb for a reason.

For a small boat I'm sure the 3/4 honeycomb is more than sufficient. It will be more stiff than the 1/2" ply with single-sided glass. I keep a little sample around, about 4" by 14". Any normal strength person cannot visibly deflect it by hand.

Haven't used it myself but some online builders have noted that Plascore is more affordable.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:27 pm
by pee wee
Another tidbit to consider is that a number of builders have opted to raise their sole height to provide a dryer self-bailing cockpit. You could do that by making the stringers taller, by making cleats sit higher than the stringers, or by making the sole thicker. :idea:

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:39 pm
by cape_fisherman
pee wee wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:27 pm Another tidbit to consider is that a number of builders have opted to raise their sole height to provide a dryer self-bailing cockpit. You could do that by making the stringers taller, by making cleats sit higher than the stringers, or by making the sole thicker. :idea:
This is another reason I recommend 1.5"-2" for the sole. You get the extra height without having to change anything.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 3:44 pm
by bklake
I picked up a sheet of 3/4" honeycomb, Carbon-Core brand. I have a gallon of MAS epoxy left over from past projects. A little biax found it's way into my shopping cart when I ordered some varnish. I can pick up the 4x8 sheet with one hand.

I need to make a roof/safari rack for my golf cart. It will give me a crash course in edges, hard points and just how strong and stiff this stuff will end up. Pictures to follow, I hope. I don't have time or space to build a boat right now so this keeps me in the game a little.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 11:46 pm
by Fuzz
Biggest problem with the honeycomb is finishing the edges. You can wet out two layers of 1208 tape, let it cure and then cut into strips long ways. While still green the tape will wrap some pretty darn tight corners. Or use a strip of wood or foam to cover the edges.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:46 pm
by bklake
So, I cut the roof panel to size. My cordless circular saw worked well for this. It has a 40 tooth blade on it. Looked cleaner and less crud than the factory edge. I rounded two corners using my jig saw. Not a good tool for honeycomb. The blade jumps around in the voids. I tried to round over the edge with a router. Not going to work unless done on a router table. The guide bearing doesn't follow a straight line, it dips into each of the voids. Not sure it would make a nice edge to glass over anyway.

I'm going to make some temporary frames and glass the top first. I want to put a little curve in it, 3/4" over 44" span. One layer of biax top and bottom. I may use some of the long scraps to make stiffeners but not sure that is the correct use. I have some wood strips standing by.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:34 pm
by cape_fisherman
Friend of mine typically laminates a Divinycell strip around the edge to finish.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:38 am
by bklake
I made a new roof for my golf cart. Non structural part suitable for experimenting. Still curing so no verdict on strength. 3/4" panel. One layer of 12oz biax each side. Old MAS epoxy I had sitting around. This was my first go with biax and I have a few things to learn. I was able to curve the panel easily so it is possible to glass in an arch it you want to. The panel is 44" wide and it is about 1" high in the middle. I could have done more curve if I made a jig to support the panel.

I did a few different things to test edge treatment. Wrapping the edge after the epoxy started to gel seemed promising but I couldn't really attend to the bottom side and made more work cleaning it up. I didn't round the edge so the fabric did not wrap well. I think, if I had a router table, I could have rounded the edge. Just a router dips into each honeycomb cavity making a jagged edge.

I tried different ways of spreading the epoxy. I poured a 9oz batch in one spot and spread it from there. Not sure if I was using too much pressure or the puddle caused it to push through the scrim but I could see drips in a few cells. Let's call it 2 out of 100 cells. I had a few spots where it soaked through to the other side. One the other side, I poured a strip of epoxy and spread it as quickly as I could. Probably needed to spread a little slower because I don't think it saturated the cloth as evenly. There is a potential to use too much epoxy by pushing it into the cells. A slightly thickened skim coat on the panel, allowed to gel, them fabric may be a good solution. I had a couple of spots on the second side that got air bubbles under them. I swear it was flat before I left it to cure. There was a tropical storm approaching and the barometric pressure was falling rapidly. Just as with wood, you have to mind the rising and falling air pressure to prevent bubbles.

So, if making flat panels for a sole, don't worry about the edges. Glass one side, flip, glass other side, install. If making something like a roof or T-top, edge treatment will be needed. Have not yet dealt with hard points for mounting. Pictures to follow.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:35 pm
by bklake
Edge. Don't do this. I pulled on the fabric trying to saturate it and ended up with this. Some grinding in my future.
Image

Resin in the honeycomb.
Image

The curve I glassed in.
Image

Once fully cured, I'm going to put some "stingers" down, spaced about 20" apart to see if it is stiff enough for a sole. Right now, it is way more flexible and floppy than a sheet of 12mm ply. Should stiffen up once I glass in some structure.

According to the Boat Builder Central epoxy estimator, I got a 40%. Not bad for a first try with biax and 18 year old epoxy.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:45 pm
by bklake
Refresher: I used 3/4" honeycomb and 12oz biax. One ply per side. MAS epoxy. Is it good to use for sole? Maybe.

The front of this has a very slight curve, maybe 3/8"-1/2" (8-12mm)over its 44" width. The back has a more pronounced curve 1 to 1 1/4" (25-32mm). With blocks at 20" spacing and standing on it, the front flexes a bit. The rear doesn't flex much at all. I used 20" because that is the stringer spacing in the plans I have. No creaking or cracking sounds just flex. The arch in the back proves that arches are stronger but it is probably too much for a sole.

The biax stuck to the scrim layer completely. The "green" glass that I wrapped around the edge did not stick at all. I was able to pull it off by hand without damaging the base layer which stayed stuck. While cutting the edge with a utility knife, I did learn that cure biax makes a really good rasp that is able to strip skin off knuckles very quickly. It was suggested to wrap glass tape while green. I did this with the cloth. It did make a nice edge but it didn't stick well and it pulled up glass at the edge. I'm won't do this with the ply layer again. It may work better using tape but it didn't stick well. The way I did it was just an experiment, a failed experiment.

The first layer of biax went on smooth and flat. I got a few bubbles on the other side. The barometric pressure was dropping due to an approaching tropical storm. With bare wood, this usually results in small bubbles in the epoxy. We have all seen that. With the big cells, there is a lot of air to expand. Bad timing on my part. Be ready with your favorite tool to pop the bubbles and keep it flat. A thickened coat on the scrim and allowed to gel then glassing may save some epoxy and make it lighter.

This combination is probably not enough for a sole at 20" spacing. I don't know if 17oz glass would make it stiff enough. Maybe 1" honeycomb would be better. Another layer of glass starts making it a lot more expensive to do. It took 48oz of epoxy per side with 12oz glass but there was a lot that soaked into scrim layer. It is possible to mold in compound curves, you can make some shapes that are more pleasing to the eye. I think Nidaplast panels are 2 layers of glass per side. They are much stiffer but are dead flat. No bending them to a shape.

Some of this is repetitive but this post is a summary. I need a scale so I can weigh the panel. I can lift it with one hand but it isn't feather light by any means.

Re: NidaPlast Panel for Sole

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:23 pm
by Fuzz
From my little use of honey comb core I find it needs around 25 oz of glass on both sides to be really stiff. I feel like around 25oz is also needed to resist puncture. I am sure there is a sweet spot where core thickness and skin thickness produce the best bang for the buck but I do not know where it is. I would love to have core in different thicknesses up to 2 inches to test myself but at this point it is just a guess. I do know the commercial fishing folks in this area have fallen in love with the 2 inch core.