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panga 22

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:34 pm
by jljones
I used 5 oz Kevlar on a cedar dinghy and it was great, I was thinking it would be worth the money to use it on the outside of the hull of the panga 22, stronger and lighter, any thoughts ?

Re: panga 22

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:11 pm
by fallguy1000
Changes to the hull glass schedule require the intervention of the designer.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:51 pm
by VT_Jeff
jljones wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:34 pm I used 5 oz Kevlar on a cedar dinghy and it was great, I was thinking it would be worth the money to use it on the outside of the hull of the panga 22, stronger and lighter, any thoughts ?
You thinking of a kevlar biax cloth and biax tape or just a kevlar weave? Kevlar has good abrasion and puncture resistance but the role of the fabric in these boats is structural, not just protective like with your dingy.

I used kevlar on the bottom of my drift boat specifically for abrasion, but its design did not require any glass for strength, that was provided by the ply schedule.

In any case, welcome, hope you get the info you seek and build an amazing boat.

Jeff

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:35 am
by TomW1
I guess we need you to answer some questions first. Where will you be using your PG22 for? Will it be run up on shells or reefs? Will it be mostly trailered?

I ask this because Kevlar in large areas is difficult to get to lay down properly. It can be a real PITA. It is not normally needed on these boats unless you are in unusually abusive condition. Several coats of graphite have proven adequate even for those in oyster bed territory.

I very much like the PG22 and you take pictures of your build and document it down it the Builders section.

Regards, Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:28 am
by OneWayTraffic
My two cents, and based on the PG20 plans.

The bottom is already very sturdy. 9mm plywood with glass both sides, and the option of using a 1708 cloth on the bottom outside to increase further. If abrasion is an issue, then you probably won't want Kevlar as I understand it is difficult to repair.

I personally would glue thin sheets or strips of aluminium flat bar or UHMWPE to any protruding parts, and call it done. That is what I did on mine. 3mm Al flat bar on the keel, and UHMWPE on the chines, and rubrails.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:59 am
by memorablemoose
You thinking of a kevlar biax cloth and biax tape or just a kevlar weave? Kevlar has good abrasion and puncture resistance but the role of the fabric in these boats is structural, not just protective like with your dingy.

I used kevlar on the bottom of my drift boat specifically for abrasion fishing equipment in Dubai , but its design did not require any glass for strength, that was provided by the ply schedule.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:42 pm
by rick berrey
Xynole or Dynel for abrasion only . Kevlar would be better on the interior for puncture or flex . If you are going to all the trouble with Kevlar just spend the money on S-2 glass .

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:53 pm
by jljones
panga 22, it does not show the DWL and I would like to know how much weight before water would come in the suppers? Plans say 8 inch draft, also 7 1/4 from bottom to cockpit sole

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:02 pm
by cape_fisherman
Aramid should be burried deep in the laminate of wood boats. It is incredibly hygroscopic, and if any of it gets abraded or otherwise exposed to water, it will soak it up like a sponge.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:01 pm
by fallguy1000
cape_fisherman wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:02 pm Aramid should be burried deep in the laminate of wood boats. It is incredibly hydroscopic, and if any of it gets abraded or otherwise exposed to water, it will soak it up like a sponge.
<-----------read this three times

I have aramid buried in the laminates of the beaching keels. Only there is the keel is suffered on rocks for a long time.

Abrading it also results in unrepairable fuzz.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:10 am
by TomW1
jljones wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:53 pm
panga 22, it does not show the DWL and I would like to know how much weight before water would come in the suppers? Plans say 8 inch draft, also 7 1/4 from bottom to cockpit sole
Okay here are the specs: listed in the study plans.
Hull weight 1100lbs
Displacement lbs. 2000lbs
PPI at DWL 420
Draft at Displacement 8" also DWL

What does all this mean. The hull weight includes some basic rigging and fuel tank. So for the displacement weight you need to add the motor weight and gas, people, safety gear, fishing gear, coolers and ice, and weight of drinks you take out with you. Basically what the boat would weight at the dock. If it is more than 2000 then you have 420lbs before you add an inch of draft. The Draft is the same as DWL. On Jacques larger boats like the Panga22 the scuppers are at least 2" above the DWL if now more. You can call the office and ask.

Jacques recommends a 40-75HP motor, a 75HP Yamaha weighs 353lbs. So that is where you start in calculating your waits of your finished boat. Once you are done with the boat I have calculators that can calculate top speed and prop size needed.

I love the bigger Panga's

Regards, Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:45 am
by VT_Jeff
cape_fisherman wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:02 pm Aramid should be burried deep in the laminate of wood boats. It is incredibly hydroscopic, and if any of it gets abraded or otherwise exposed to water, it will soak it up like a sponge.
That has definitely not been my experience. My wife and I have paddled boats with kevlar bottoms on whitewater for years, smashed them on rocks, repaired them with minimal skills and never noticed any effects of water absorption, possibly be cause we never looked.

I'm probably the least qualified to comment on this topic but I did find this interesting:
Capture.PNG
from https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a074547.pdf

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:04 pm
by jljones
I new Kevlar protects well from abrasions , but thought it was strong to, so I did a test ,
2inch by 1/8 inch by 30 stip of plywood, covered one on both sides with 5 oz kevlar and the second one with 2 layers of 6 oz glass( did not have 12 oz)

the photo shows results , the glass is stiffer but maybe the kevlar is as strong? will try to break after the epoxy has more time to cure.
kevlar test.jpg

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:39 am
by fallguy1000
Kevlar likes to float in the laminate. This is defeatable a few ways. Typically by burying it between layers of glass.

Or in the case of those fancy canoes, someone is using vacuum.

It is rather difficult to repair if abraded and can require grinding out the entire section which can be difficult because it likes to make a rats nest in grinding. I have not done it and only seen pictures. What is odd is I have had a hard time finding pictures online, but their used to be plenty. Kevlar conspiracy or bad googles?

What does floating in the laminate mean? It means the fabric likes to rise up and not allow epoxy impregnation. One way to defeat it is a resin rich layup. Of course, a resin rich layup of fiberglass is generally not a great thing. When I built it into the beaching keel it was one of 8 layers of glass in mould and it was a very wet layup. Probably around a 1/4" thick stuff and the kevlar is toward the outside. I only added the kevlar in order to protect the hull in a bad reefing. I didn't mind a resin rich layup because it is 8 layers thick. Testing resin rich layups was interesting. They damaged easier from impact testing. We lifted the hulls on the beaching keels and noted no issues with 1600 pounds of pressure on 16 sqin of surface.

The test below is really only to be done after about three days room temperature curing. Otherwise it is very inconclusive. The fabric certainly has data that would support how to use it vs glass.

But the main concern is the same. How would you keep it from floating and ensure the aramid/kevlar matrix gets fully wetted. Keep in mind another problem with fabrics that float is there becomes more epoxy on the bottom and it can start to puddle and you don't realize it. In my small mould, it didn't matter, I installed a 6-8" wide piece of aramid and it floated, but I added another piece of glass above and forced it down with consolidation rollers and so had good wetout across the substrate (more glass), the aramid, and the glass on top which was 1708. If you don't use some strategy, the aramid might float, for example, on a final layer.

So, if you were to sub aramid, you'd probably need it on the bottom layer, for example. Once you wetout the substrate, roll the aramid off tubes, get it to lay down nice and then perhaps more epoxy overtop of it and then roll off fiberglass, run the consolidation roller again and wetout the top glass well from underneath. This would force any aramid resins up. Then finish with wetting out the glass. A lot of words, but aramid under is the only way I'd attempt it. Another reason would be if you sand through to the kevlar in fairing, it could become a nightmare to fix. If you sand to glass, you know to stop.

After all of this, one must ask why. For abrasion resistance.

But we've buried the aramid to use it.

Here is what I recommend. Get a small piece of aramid, say 8" wide. Laminate it to a board. After you have allowed a 3 days cure. Hit it with a sander. See if you like what happens. Then try to repair it.

A much cooler fabric to use on a panga would be carbon! It would lighten the boat.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:19 am
by jljones
ok, yes the fraying when sanded into it is a problem, but I covered the buttom of my cedar strip dinghy and it did not float up at all, slower wetting out process but I made sure not to get to much resin on it,
but it is not as stiff as the glass, I will not be using the Kevlar, there is a Kevlar/Carbon weave . BBC has it at 40 dollars a yard, but the price goes up even more, I was just trying to make it lighter.

Thanks for the information on DWL question, I love the plans and feel confident that it will not be a problem, I will get it light and simple.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:08 am
by fallguy1000
jljones wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:19 am ok, yes the fraying when sanded into it is a problem, but I covered the buttom of my cedar strip dinghy and it did not float up at all, slower wetting out process but I made sure not to get to much resin on it,
but it is not as stiff as the glass, I will not be using the Kevlar, there is a Kevlar/Carbon weave . BBC has it at 40 dollars a yard, but the price goes up even more, I was just trying to make it lighter.

Thanks for the information on DWL question, I love the plans and feel confident that it will not be a problem, I will get it light and simple.
We would really love some build pictures or a blog. Even more so if you decide to try carbon, but in all cases, the panga builds are fun. And you might get good advice.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:30 pm
by jljones
ok, will do, may be waiting to fall to start but I can not wait to start, will be back on here

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:34 am
by jacquesmm
Good advice above.
Do not replace any glass with Kevlar, Kevlar does not have the stiffness we need. If you feel comfortable working with Kevlar, you can add some for resistance to abrasion.

BTW, there are two types of aramid fiber named Kevlar, one is used for resistance to abrasion, one for puncture. I do not specify it in any of my designs. For abrasion resistance, I prefer a coating of graphite in epoxy.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:43 am
by VT_Jeff
jljones wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:04 pm I new Kevlar protects well from abrasions , but thought it was strong to, so I did a test ,
2inch by 1/8 inch by 30 stip of plywood, covered one on both sides with 5 oz kevlar and the second one with 2 layers of 6 oz glass( did not have 12 oz)

the photo shows results , the glass is stiffer but maybe the kevlar is as strong? will try to break after the epoxy has more time to cure.kevlar test.jpg
I like the test!

I know you may have already decided to shelve the Kevlar idea but this is still an interesting topic.

From what I can tell from the photo, that is not a biaxal glass, so for a straight-up stiffness comparison between the specced glass and Kevlar, it's apples/oranges, though it appears the glass won anyway. Full disclosure, I know exactly enough about glass to be nearly complete with my second boat.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:22 am
by TomW1
jjjones both jacquesmm and VT_Jeff point out the flaws in your testing. You need to use biaxial glass first. Second Kevlar alone does not provide the strength needed for these boats. So adding a layer will increase your costs drastically, even if you add it only to the bottom. As Jacques said adding graphite to epoxy is a good abrasive resistant coating. I have it on my OD18. You can see it on many of the other boats builds here.

Good luck on your build and look forward to following it when you start, lots of pictures please. :D

Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:51 pm
by cape_fisherman
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:45 am That has definitely not been my experience. My wife and I have paddled boats with kevlar bottoms on whitewater for years, smashed them on rocks, repaired them with minimal skills and never noticed any effects of water absorption, possibly be cause we never looked.

I'm probably the least qualified to comment on this topic but I did find this interesting:

Capture.PNG

from https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a074547.pdf
I would have to ask...in any of your smashing on rocks have you smashed hard enough to get the kevlar to fuzz up? You can't sand it. It has to be cut out, and that part of the hull replaced. Just curious if you've experienced the fuzzing that aramid fibers cause when abraded?

Again, the stuff is extremely hygroscopic...much more than glass & other fibers...hence the suggestion to bury it in the laminate...you really don't ever want it being abraded. You just want it there to protect in a worst-case-scenario event.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:26 pm
by VT_Jeff
cape_fisherman wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:51 pm
I would have to ask...in any of your smashing on rocks have you smashed hard enough to get the kevlar to fuzz up? You can't sand it. It has to be cut out, and that part of the hull replaced. Just curious if you've experienced the fuzzing that aramid fibers cause when abraded?

Again, the stuff is extremely hygroscopic...much more than glass & other fibers...hence the suggestion to bury it in the laminate...you really don't ever want it being abraded. You just want it there to protect in a worst-case-scenario event.
Sure. This clip shows one move that tends to shred the ends of the boat, though shes in plastic in the clip:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=01WIoqQjjE0

This is the bow of Elaine's carbon/kevlar boat. She has smashed the bow any number of times and we usually repair it at some campsite while on the road. We started adding a kevlar profolactic to extend the time between repairs.
20210414_215658.jpg
We just grind the kevlar/ fuzz and epoxy some more kevlar on, never seemed like a big deal.

Here's the whole boat, it was custom made by some dudes in canada. Elaine's nickname is "Snacks", best not to ask.
20210414_214925.jpg
20210414_215119.jpg
We dont have downriver boats anymore but it was the same deal: smash it in a race on saturday, dry it out and patch it at the campsite sat night, smash it again on sunday, hope for a podium

I'm no expert, but no one ever told me it was hard, so we just did it/do it.

I bought a kevlar downriver boat that was in rough shape. I spent some time grinding the bottom, bought a big piece of kevlar to fix it, and then bought a different boat and never completed the repair. The kevlar I bought ended up on the bottom of my driftboat. When it gets smashed,I'll patch it as I've been doing.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:12 am
by fallguy1000
cape_fisherman wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:51 pm
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:45 am That has definitely not been my experience. My wife and I have paddled boats with kevlar bottoms on whitewater for years, smashed them on rocks, repaired them with minimal skills and never noticed any effects of water absorption, possibly be cause we never looked.

I'm probably the least qualified to comment on this topic but I did find this interesting:

Capture.PNG

from https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a074547.pdf
I would have to ask...in any of your smashing on rocks have you smashed hard enough to get the kevlar to fuzz up? You can't sand it. It has to be cut out, and that part of the hull replaced. Just curious if you've experienced the fuzzing that aramid fibers cause when abraded?

Again, the stuff is extremely hygroscopic...much more than glass & other fibers...hence the suggestion to bury it in the laminate...you really don't ever want it being abraded. You just want it there to protect in a worst-case-scenario event.
They are impact whacking it.

The fuzzing happens in groundings when the kevlar grinds on a rock on the bottom on a beach overnite.

Two totally different deals. He just slaps on another piece.

If you leave your boat grinding on a rock overnite with kevlar under it, you'll get that rat's nest. Hope I havent't jinkxed myself!

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:15 pm
by VT_Jeff
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:12 am
cape_fisherman wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:51 pm
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:45 am That has definitely not been my experience. My wife and I have paddled boats with kevlar bottoms on whitewater for years, smashed them on rocks, repaired them with minimal skills and never noticed any effects of water absorption, possibly be cause we never looked.

I'm probably the least qualified to comment on this topic but I did find this interesting:

Capture.PNG

from https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a074547.pdf
I would have to ask...in any of your smashing on rocks have you smashed hard enough to get the kevlar to fuzz up? You can't sand it. It has to be cut out, and that part of the hull replaced. Just curious if you've experienced the fuzzing that aramid fibers cause when abraded?

Again, the stuff is extremely hygroscopic...much more than glass & other fibers...hence the suggestion to bury it in the laminate...you really don't ever want it being abraded. You just want it there to protect in a worst-case-scenario event.
They are impact whacking it.

The fuzzing happens in groundings when the kevlar grinds on a rock on the bottom on a beach overnite.

Two totally different deals. He just slaps on another piece.

If you leave your boat grinding on a rock overnite with kevlar under it, you'll get that rat's nest. Hope I havent't jinkxed myself!
I'll doc my next repair and we can pick up the debate there.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:31 am
by jacquesmm
jljones wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:53 pm panga 22, it does not show the DWL and I would like to know how much weight before water would come in the suppers? Plans say 8 inch draft, also 7 1/4 from bottom to cockpit sole
See the study plans:
The DWL is at the listed displacement of 2,000 lbs and at 8" draft. In this design, I did put the DWL at the lower face of the sole or just a little below. This means that at level trim and a displacement of 2,000 lbs, the cockpit drains. The study plans also list a PPI of 420 lbs. That means, the waterline goes up 1" for every 420 lbs of extra load. With the thickness of the sole, it will take about 300 lbs for the cockpit drains to be flush with the waterline. That does not mean sinking, the boat is unsinkable with the buoyancy foam but the cockpit may get wet around 2,300 lbs. The Pangas are small boats for the length but very seaworthy. I recommend cockpit drain plugs IF you load the boat hevily.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:32 pm
by jljones
were can I find some information on putting spray rails on the Panga22?

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:20 pm
by TomW1
jljones wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:32 pm were can I find some information on putting spray rails on the Panga22?
I would look at your plans in more detail, they may be on a separate sheet from everything else. The study plans show spray rails on her in various pictures and drawings. If not ask again.

Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:25 am
by jacquesmm
jljones wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:32 pm were can I find some information on putting spray rails on the Panga22?
See the drawing "lamination schedule". There is a suggested spray rail on there, it follows the chine.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:59 pm
by OneWayTraffic
Details like spray and rubrails builders make to their own preferences, usually. What is drawn will work and work well, but you could do anything you like from a Kapten boat collar, to leaving it without a sprayrail. I filled in my chine, and glued some UHMWPE strips to the chine and styleline. I'll put some more in at the rubrail. Won't look as good as a commercial one, but cheaper and tougher. Which suits me fine.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:40 pm
by TomW1
OneWayTraffic wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:59 pm Details like spray and rubrails builders make to their own preferences, usually. What is drawn will work and work well, but you could do anything you like from a Kapten boat collar, to leaving it without a sprayrail. I filled in my chine, and glued some UHMWPE strips to the chine and styleline. I'll put some more in at the rubrail. Won't look as good as a commercial one, but cheaper and tougher. Which suits me fine.
When the designer shows a spray rail, it is there to help the builder make the boat a drier boat. It is not a builders preference. I have an OD18 where the builder did not put on the suggested spray rail and it gets wet pretty quick in a chop.

OneWayTraffic rub rails must be built to the designers specs as they strengthen the sheer. You can make them bigger but not less than the designer requires. The FS17 requires a 1.5x.75 rub rail as I recall. Larger boats require larger ones You can make the rub rail of 1/4" pieces overlapped ply. Just don't make the joints end on each other.

So hope this helps other builders understand why the designer puts rub rails and spray rails in his plans and why they should not be disregarded.

Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:44 pm
by cracked_ribs
Depends on the boat... if you're using it in a context where wet or dry isn't a major concern you could leave the spray rails off; you could also add in reverse chines and knock down the spray on most V-hulls. Presumably that's why JMG refers to them as optional on a bunch of designs.

As far as rub rails, you could achieve the same stiffening effect with an inwale or heavy sheer clamp. You give up the impact cushion but again, builder's choice.

You build your own boat, pretty much everything is optional. Lots of ways to add or omit components without negatively impacting the structural integrity.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:27 am
by TomW1
cracked_ribs wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:44 pm Depends on the boat... if you're using it in a context where wet or dry isn't a major concern you could leave the spray rails off; you could also add in reverse chines and knock down the spray on most V-hulls. Presumably that's why JMG refers to them as optional on a bunch of designs.

As far as rub rails, you could achieve the same stiffening effect with an inwale or heavy sheer clamp. You give up the impact cushion but again, builder's choice.

You build your own boat, pretty much everything is optional. Lots of ways to add or omit components without negatively impacting the structural integrity.
I will agree with you up to a point. A lot of builders do not have the knowledge to make the changes you have indicated. :D There are very few plans that JM suggests leaving the spray rails off. You will have to show me them to make me believe that, optional yes, leaving them off, no. And even optional is few and far between. In my now 14 years on here only 2 members have put reverse chines on there boats. One in Australia and one here. It takes work and the proper fiber glassing and gradient from the transom to the bow. It takes work.

Again as far as rub rails vs. inwales and sheer clamps, a new builder would not even know what the latter two were, he is just buying his first set of plans to build his first boat. The rub rails have to be there. If they ask the question about replacing them with something else, then they can be answered. They cannot automatically replace the rub rails. Depending on the boat they may be able to replace them with something else. It is up to the designer.

You know what they are, Jacques and I sure know what they are, but there are probably less than 25% of the other members that know what they are. Though they may, since they have been on here for a while.

Just remember you designed and built your own boat, you should not give advice to builders using Jacques plans, unless you have the plans to that boat. :D

Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:38 am
by cracked_ribs
Fair enough, it is definitely a commitment of time, money, and greying or vanishing hair a lot of the time as one works to solve the problems he has created for himself by abandoning the good graces of the designer.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:40 am
by OneWayTraffic
On my plans the sprayrail is shown as highly recommended. I chose to put one in as a drier boat is a good thing. But I assume that means the boat won't fall apart without it. Builders have left them out or included them depending on what they want to accomplish. I have also seen different ways of achieving the sprayrail. I filled my chine using a dam, then faired, glassed and glued the plastic to the outside of it. Others have simply fastened a suitable hardwood strip of the recommended dimensions. On the plans for the PG20 it is shown as a 'suggested spray rail 25mm wide,' not required, but probably a good idea.

On the other hand the skeg on my C17 is shown as required. I assumed that meant some structural use, so I made sure to include it, made it beefy and taped it in.

Having said that I agree wholeheartedly that following the designers recommendations is a good idea. :)

By rubrail I didn't mean the layers of plywood to strengthen the sheer which is required, but the plastic or rubber bumper sometimes fastened to it which is not required, but in my view a very good idea.

I should have been more clear but I was in a hurry to go fishing.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:49 am
by OneWayTraffic
TomW1 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:27 am In my now 14 years on here only 2 members have put reverse chines on there boats. One in Australia and one here. It takes work and the proper fiber glassing and gradient from the transom to the bow. It takes work.
Sideslippa, Baraman?, myself and I'm not sure who else. I found it a bit of work but less hassle for me than finding a strip of hardwood the correct dimensions, glassing it and filling the edge. That was me though.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:53 am
by TomW1
OneWayTraffic wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:40 am On my plans the sprayrail is shown as highly recommended. I chose to put one in as a drier boat is a good thing. But I assume that means the boat won't fall apart without it. Builders have left them out or included them depending on what they want to accomplish. I have also seen different ways of achieving the sprayrail. I filled my chine using a dam, then faired, glassed and glued the plastic to the outside of it. Others have simply fastened a suitable hardwood strip of the recommended dimensions. On the plans for the PG20 it is shown as a 'suggested spray rail 25mm wide,' not required, but probably a good idea.

On the other hand the skeg on my C17 is shown as required. I assumed that meant some structural use, so I made sure to include it, made it beefy and taped it in.

Having said that I agree wholeheartedly that following the designers recommendations is a good idea. :)

By rubrail I didn't mean the layers of plywood to strengthen the sheer which is required, but the plastic or rubber bumper sometimes fastened to it which is not required, but in my view a very good idea.

I should have been more clear but I was in a hurry to go fishing.
Okay, we are on the same wave length. :D :D :D

Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:59 pm
by VT_Jeff
cape_fisherman wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:51 pm
Again, the stuff is extremely hygroscopic...much more than glass....
Ok. This is not a high-tech experiment but I think it goes a long way to proving that, in this particular case at least, you are 100%, absolutely and without-any-doubt.........correct!


I put a few tablespoons of water in the cup.
The whole cloth is wicked and wet. I definitely was not expecting that!

This will conclude my use/advisement of kevlar for abrasion resistance.
20210426_155012.jpg

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:26 pm
by TomW1
VT_Jeff wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:59 pm
cape_fisherman wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:51 pm
Again, the stuff is extremely hygroscopic...much more than glass....
Ok. This is not a high-tech experiment but I think it goes a long way to proving that, in this particular case at least, you are 100%, absolutely and without-any-doubt.........correct!


I put a few tablespoons of water in the cup.
The whole cloth is wicked and wet. I definitely was not expecting that!

This will conclude my use/advisement of kevlar for abrasion resistance.

20210426_155012.jpg
:lol: :lol: :lol: No there are places Kevlar can be used but generally it is not worth the effort.

Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 12:51 pm
by jljones
so I will be ordering the cnc kit to get started, Question , the laminating schedule only shows the glass on the bottom and 6 inches up the topsides, no glass on top sides, I was surprised and wanted to make sure I did not overlook something , the amount of 12 oz glass seems to support that

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 1:31 pm
by jacquesmm
You are reading the lamination schedule correctly. The minimum overlap is 6" above the chine. More is an option and not necessary. You have enough fabric to go much higher over the sides especially towards the bow. Why not use it? You should have enough resin.
Some builders like to cover the whole side, outside, all the way to the sheer. This makes sense if the boat is kept at a dock or frequently docks along a seawall. It will provide extra resistance to abrasion. 6 oz. woven is sufficient for that.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:03 am
by jljones
I am ready to glue the joints so I can round to corners and tape, But these is after many hours and still not getting it close enough to frames b and c that have a camber much more then 3/8 plywood can bend, especially in a compound bend like at the bow of the boat I used massive forces to try and get there and to keep fair was a challenge the instructions said use wire ties but when I first started to bring the plywood down to the chine they just started breaking , everywhere from mid-ship forward I used copper wire to hold together, since the keel could not come closer then 2 inches from the mold c, I had to add space 1/2 inch at mold g and so on to make the keel fair, The glue at the joints forward are never going to hold the forces that are there when I take the wires off. I was so exciting after loosely stiching the panel's together about the way it was looking.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:21 am
by jljones
I am ready to glue the joints so I can round to corners and tape, But these is after many hours and still not getting it close enough to frames b and c that have a camber much more then 3/8 plywood can bend, especially in a compound bend like at the bow of the boat I used massive forces to try and get there and to keep fair was a challenge the instructions said use wire ties but when I first started to bring the plywood down to the chine they just started breaking , everywhere from mid-ship forward I used copper wire to hold together, since the keel could not come closer then 2 inches from the mold c, I had to add space 1/2 inch at mold g and so on to make the keel fair, The glue at the joints forward are never going to hold the forces that are there when I take the wires off. I was so exciting after loosely stiching the panel's together about the way it was looking.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:04 am
by jacquesmm
Do not worry about gaps inside close to the bow. Focus on fairness and accept a little gap. That bow has tight curves.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:12 am
by Dougster
I had similar trouble with the LB22 and finally had to kerf the forward 3' of the bottom panels. I was using Meranti ply and it's stiffer than Okoume. I still had 1/2" and more space from the keel but it was no problem. Once you get a fair hull and get it set with epoxy you can adjust the frames to fit as needed. Your pics look ok to me 8)

Dougster

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:00 pm
by OneWayTraffic
I've seen a few Panga buiilds. Everyone had issues with the bending. One solution I saw was to cut the bottom into strips near the front on the PG20 which were then individually bent into position. This helped the bending but I'm not sure about fairing. Keep in mind that the PG20 is even harder to bend into shape than the 22. Aside from some minor kerfs on the inside, you could try a little water to soften the wood. The other thing is time. If you can give it a few days the wood will set into the new shape. If you are worried about the glue tabs holding then just use a few glass strip to tab in high stress areas between the cable ties. It's not hard to fair over since there's another 4 or so layers going over anyway. Ensure the glue has plenty of time to reach max strength before you remove it.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:48 am
by jljones
so i got the boat glassed on the bottom and frames fitted, i found a 17 gallon tank that will go below the sole, and will have a porta poty inside center console, will be small but worth it.
fuel tank.jpg

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:05 pm
by jljones
so i got the boat glassed on the bottom and frames fitted, i found a 17 gallon tank that will go below the sole, and will have a porta poty inside center console, will be small but worth it.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:05 pm
by Jeff
Nice!!! Jeff

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:04 pm
by TomW1
Very nice, the 17 gallon tank should work well with a 50 or 60 HP motor as suggested by Jacques as long as you don't plan long distant cruises. Really like the PG's.

Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:58 am
by jljones
so as talked about before, forward the boat became a deeper V then design because of the difficult to bend the compound curves, as much as 3 inches at frame C, to make the hull straight from frame V to transom I added space at the other frames aft as seen in first picture, I am happy with the modified hull,

The other pictures show my CC design

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:02 am
by Jeff
Nice progress!! I like the CC. Jeff

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:19 am
by fallguy1000
You look a bit like my father or me I suppose. Build on!

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:19 pm
by TomW1
Looking good. You are planning her out well. :D

Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:35 am
by pee wee
jljones wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:58 am so as talked about before, forward the boat became a deeper V then design because of the difficult to bend the compound curves, as much as 3 inches at frame C, to make the hull straight from frame V to transom I added space at the other frames aft as seen in first picture, I am happy with the modified hull.

Image
Nice progress, looking good!
How did you handle the space between the frames and the hull, did you fill them in or trim the frames to fit?

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:47 am
by jacquesmm
A small plywood filler will be fine.
That part is difficult to bend even with Okume. A filler is OK.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:42 pm
by jljones
I filled in the space before tapping it in, I think it turning out that way my floor is a bit higher

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:10 am
by OneWayTraffic
Just asking: I can see some uncoated pieces of wood on the underside of the sole on one of those photos. I hope that that's just a dry fit; every single part of every piece of wood must be well coated.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:53 am
by pee wee
OneWayTraffic wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:10 am Just asking: I can see some uncoated pieces of wood on the underside of the sole on one of those photos. I hope that that's just a dry fit; every single part of every piece of wood must be well coated.
This ^

is a great reason to post photos as you build- so others can watch over your shoulder and possibly catch something that needs addressing before it's too late to easily fix. It looks like the sole is only temporarily in place and any questions and concerns are not needed, but maybe it's helpful. At any rate, it shows you've got an audience that cares.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:11 pm
by jljones
got the sapele wood coaming in place and ready to fair and add the deck, 1'-1/6" X 1/2 inch strips following the sheer.
just had to put the wheel on to see it

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:43 pm
by jljones
The sapele strip side decks turned out great have three coats of UV stable epoxy on it so far, may varnish also painted with quantum which I'm very happy with, next step is the floor with the rubber sand
IMG_20211103_112804795_HDR.jpg
IMG_20211103_112830440_HDR.jpg

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:15 pm
by TomW1
If your going to varnish it may I recommen this it has 4-5 times the life span of regular varinsh and really goes on nicely. https://www.wholesalemarine.com/interlu ... quart.html

Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:17 pm
by jacquesmm
Very good looking. Good combination of resin and woodwork.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:14 pm
by cracked_ribs
Yes, very beautiful rendition of that boat!

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:32 pm
by Fuzz
X 2 on what others have said. :D

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:35 pm
by Jeff
X3!! Jeff

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:16 pm
by jonnymac
the sapele is 🔥. Going to have so many people coming to talk at the ramp its going to be hard to get out of there 🤣

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:13 pm
by Dan_Smullen
Holy smoke that looks amazing.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:10 pm
by jljones
Thank you all

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:06 pm
by PapaDave
Nice work! I love your scupper drain openings at station G. Easy to wash down the deck with that design.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:31 am
by jljones
Yes , scuppers are 2 by 6 inch at transom with doors, you would not believe how comfortable these two seats are, still needs windshield and a leaning post/seat behind CC, will have same look as the other seats, ran out of paint on cockpit sole, to paint over soft sand,fine, takes 3 times the paint, casting deck has two coats on top of soft sand

Re: panga 22

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:41 pm
by Jeff
Very nice work!!! Jeff

Re: panga 22

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:01 pm
by VT_Jeff
jljones wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:31 am ran out of paint on cockpit sole, to paint over soft sand,fine, takes 3 times the paint
I ran into the same issue: ran out of paint and ran out of time to keep adding coats. I ended up losing a lot of my grit in the first few days of use to due insufficient over-coating and need to start over with my non-skid on some areas of my boat. Will need to wait till mid-summer to fix. I'm thinking I can use a much cheaper paint over the grit than the stuff I've been using(TotalBoat Topside) since it's just going to get walked on, scuffed, dirtied, etc.

Rally like your build, big fan of the Pangas!

Re: panga 22

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:38 pm
by Dan_Smullen
Classy looking ride, sir!

Re: panga 22

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:44 pm
by TomW1
Really good looking boat! Try to get some more paint on the deck so you don't have the problem Jeff had, you may have a few more warm days. :?:

Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:22 pm
by Lurker4567
Beautiful work! Any other pics or details on how you built the sapele gunwales/coaming/breastplate, etc? I have visions of a thousand clamps, steam bending, scribing, witches brews... :D I've been following boat building on the web for at least a decade and this is pretty much the only aspect of which there is virtually no information to be had. The sparse information out there seems to only concern teak in the cockpit of some monster sport fisher.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:33 am
by TomTom
I love the looks of your build and all the clever little details! Beautiful build.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:29 am
by jljones
I could not find pictures of the sapele deck construction, I did not have to steam it, started with the coaming, then the king plank at the bow to receive the ends of each strip,after cutting all the strips from 5/4 planks 9 ft long I cut scarf joints to glue up 24 ft strips,started with the strip resting on the coaming glueing it down with (yes),lots of clamps, for each of the remaining strips I glued and screwed with #8 2 1/2 in ss finishing screws through the edge, until I reached the rub rail glued on earlier, then with an electric planer I shaped the top and then lots of sanding

Here is a picture of the helm seat, after painting the top sides, I will be getting it out of the garage and on to a trailer and take it to St Pete Florida for the Yamaha 70 hp then I can post better pictures outside of my little garage
IMG_20211201_151853861_HDR.jpg

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:17 pm
by Jeff
Beautiful work!!!!!! Jeff

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:39 am
by TomTom
Can’t wait to see this on the water…

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:30 am
by cape man
Wow! You did an amazing job!

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:19 pm
by Fuzz
cape man wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:30 am Wow! You did an amazing job!
X2 :D

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:47 pm
by VT_Jeff
Gorgeous!

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:49 pm
by Lurker4567
jljones wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:29 am I could not find pictures of the sapele deck construction, I did not have to steam it, started with the coaming, then the king plank at the bow to receive the ends of each strip,after cutting all the strips from 5/4 planks 9 ft long I cut scarf joints to glue up 24 ft strips,started with the strip resting on the coaming glueing it down with (yes),lots of clamps, for each of the remaining strips I glued and screwed with #8 2 1/2 in ss finishing screws through the edge, until I reached the rub rail glued on earlier, then with an electric planer I shaped the top and then lots of sanding

Here is a picture of the helm seat, after painting the top sides, I will be getting it out of the garage and on to a trailer and take it to St Pete Florida for the Yamaha 70 hp then I can post better pictures outside of my little garageIMG_20211201_151853861_HDR.jpg
Thanks for the details... beautiful work!

Re: panga 22

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:42 pm
by fallguy1000
Those gunwhales are gorgeous. Sapele is so pretty. My tops are all made from...

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:20 am
by jljones
The boat is now at central marine in Florida getting a Yamaha 70 put on it, hope to post some pictures of it in the water soon
IMG_20220122_113124821_HDR.jpg
IMG_20220122_113124821_HDR.jpg

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:24 am
by jljones
I will try again on pictures
IMG_20220123_155844179_HDR.jpg
IMG_20220122_113124821_HDR.jpg
IMG_20220123_155844179_HDR.jpg

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:27 am
by Jeff
Beautiful boat!! Looking forward to seeing her on the water!!! Jeff

Re: panga 22

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:39 pm
by TomW1
She looks great and will do well on those big reservoirs out your way. If you need any help in selecting a prop let me know. Tom

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:04 am
by cape man
Boat looks awesome. You will love the 70 yamaha! Why did you go all the way to Central Marine? Was that the only deal? Great guys, but I thought I was nuts to drive 1.5 hours to them when I bought a 40.

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:42 pm
by jljones
Dealers near Chattanooga said it would be end of this year before they could get one, Tom, central Maine is a big company and sea trials is part of the price, they should pick out the right prop, I think I read your thread about props, they boat is staying in Florida, anyone have advice about getting it registered?, We think we found information for it, looks like they come out and inspect the boat

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:17 pm
by cape man
Call the regional FWC office. They come out. Easy process.

Minimal questions. Couple of receipts for big stuff and if you have the plans in hand even better. All they said was "Nice boat."

Re: panga 22

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:43 pm
by jljones
Thank you

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:10 pm
by Rover1
Very nice work on the boat.
Rover1

Re: panga 22

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:14 pm
by TomW1
Boat looks great. Sounds like Central Marine should be able to get the right prop for you. At full throttle you should be at 6000-6300 rpms. 6300 is max for the 70HP motor so 6000 would be ideal for the prop you get.

Tom