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PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:06 pm
by SLRS
Pontoon Cat Boat Plans (PC24)
E-Cat 24 Boat Plans (EC24)

Hi there, and thanks for the information and a place to ask questions.

I may have narrowed my search down to as few as 2 designs, and they are both found here! Hopefully, it is ok to ask for more information than is found on the study plans (tell me if it is not).

I see the PC24 hulls are referred to as planing hulls. Are the EC24 hulls displacement? I am very interested in efficiency and am attracted to the EC24 design because of it, but the PC24 may not be all that much less efficient while being able to carry more weight. Yes?

How wide and tall are both the hulls? Partly, I am wondering how much interior room will be available for fuel, water, storage...I have 16 gallon steel drums (14.5" diameter) for fuel and 16 gallon plastic drums for water. I am also trying to get an idea of deck height as waves on the Great Lakes, yachts and barges often create big chop.

I would be using this on the Great Lakes, the Mississippi and possibly the great loop.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:57 pm
by fallguy1000
Edited!!!

Pontoon boats are less than ideal for the Great Lakes.

I have done quite a lot of great lakes fishing and I have NEVER seen anyone on a pontoon boat out in the main lakes. These lakes are massive. Fish in them are pelagagic and roamers. Finding the fish typically requires driving far out to sea. This is not a safe vessel for such behaviors. The sea states in the great lakes are fast chop and conditions change rapidly. Lake Michigan, in certain areas, is 10 miles out. A small skiff is safer. A larger boat like the C19 or others are muchmore suitable for the predictably unpredictable conditions.

The pontoon cat 22 is not really a pontoon. I forget this often. It would work well for Lake Michigan. It has sufficient power to get you home safely.

The electric boat, in my opinion, is not suited for the big lakes. It is not fast enough and could take you hours to get back in bad head seas. Despite the study plan callouts, I would not run it a long way from shore with electric either.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:06 pm
by SLRS
"I have done quite a lot of great lakes fishing and I have NEVER seen anyone on a pontoon boat out in the main lakes."
-I have seen pontoons, which these are not. I have also seen people regularly (and safely) going out in boats that are much smaller than the C19. Safety is a serious issue, but also subjective. It is easy to go out in a safe boat in an unsafe manner.

-The C19 looks perfect for someone that is looking for that kind of boat. I am not.

-I am not primarily fishing...and thanks for introducing me to a word that I needed to look up.

-Search: Birth of the Gougmarans by Meade Gougeon. Similar use and design.

-Did you have those measurements?

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:54 pm
by fallguy1000
SLRS wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:06 pm "I have done quite a lot of great lakes fishing and I have NEVER seen anyone on a pontoon boat out in the main lakes."
-I have seen pontoons, which these are not. I have also seen people regularly (and safely) going out in boats that are much smaller than the C19. Safety is a serious issue, but also subjective. It is easy to go out in a safe boat in an unsafe manner.

-The C19 looks perfect for someone that is looking for that kind of boat. I am not.

-I am not primarily fishing...and thanks for introducing me to a word that I needed to look up.

-Search: Birth of the Gougmarans by Meade Gougeon. Similar use and design.

-Did you have those measurements?
PC22 is 8'3" beam with 16" bdeck tunnel clearance.

I think actually, the boat is more of a catamaran than a pontoon and would work fine on big water. I am correcting my other post as well, in a bit.

I did not check on the ecat because it would not work for you. The electric boats are severely range limited. If you wanted to do the great loop, the ecat would need to be modified quite a lot and it would get heavy quickly and I don't believe it was designed for that. The engine specs are all very small. The Ecat 24 is 8'10" beam.

The designer will comment most likely. Give him some time.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:31 pm
by SLRS
I appreciate your help here.

16 inches of clearance on the PC24 would be between the water and under side of the deck. That might be the minimum for my use as i have seen 10 foot+ wakes behind some of the larger yachts, on flat water, in the UP. Something to think about. Also, I believe the max beam is designed up to 10 feet.

For the EC24.
-I know there is a place for electric, (I have an 8.28kwh solar system on my property), but I do not prefer it on a boat (or car). I would choose an engine over a motor every time and agree that electric is out. Thus, I would choose an engine. A pair of 10 hp is mentioned.
-My plans would include a 8 x 20 foot platform, an 8 x 8 wall tent with 5.5 foot side walls and a 6 foot high rain fly / sun screen over the whole platform. This would be a rustic, aquatic camp site (but not a heavy camper) without the dirt, able to pull up to any island or out of the way creek for the night or weekend. All plastic tables, aluminum chairs and aluminum cots for 2. I have many decades in aviation so "light" is covered and under control. Even still, I am concerned about having enough buoyancy.

I am just able to design my own boat, but have too much respect for a skilled / experienced engineer to be satisfied with my (probably good enough) design when i know there are quality designs that provide 100% reliability, safety, predictability and are completely able to accomplish the designed goal.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:45 am
by fallguy1000
The pc22 is about the smallest boat you'd ever consider for the great loop. But what about the de25? It would be far better all around. A head for One thing. Still, low power needs.

I purchased plans for the LB26, but I decided it was too small to do the Inside Passage. Now, I may never do the Inside Passage, but will have a boat well capable. For the Great Loop, the pc22 is really a bit too small...the twin engine power and control cost is about an xtra 10k you can spend on a bigger hull like the de25.

Another boat that you could consider is the Skoota powercat series in a 20 or 24 foot version. Those would take longer, but they are beachable and safer in big seas than any of the others mentioned thus far.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:50 pm
by SLRS
Found this in an earlier reply for the EC24. I will copy it here for information sake.

-20" from under the deck to the DWL. Cross beams are 6" high = 14" under cross beams.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:13 am
by Browndog
Welcome to the Forum!

Congratulations on your decision to pursue a boat building project.

For many years I used my boat on Lake Superior and Lake Michigan pursuing salmon, lake trout, steelhead and walleye.

Fallguy is correct that the weather and sea conditions can get downright nautical in a hurry. The cold water can also make it life threatening pretty quick in an emergency. But it can also be glassy smooth with nary a ripple too.

Before I retired I dreamed often of doing the Great Loop. The goal sustained me for years and provided wonderful times to research and learn about the type of craft best suited for such a fabulous adventure. What I learned was that the Great Loop has been done in everything from a Jet Ski, Pontoon boat, sail boats, house boats, Trawlers, etc. It all just depends on how far and fast you want to go each day, what type of weather and seas you are willing to tolerate while operating, how much fuel you want or can afford to buy, whether or not you plan on living on the boat or staying at Marinas, campsites or hotels along the way.

It sounds like you have some very specific things you want your boat to do and are also less concerned about luxury and maybe comfort.

Pontoon boats are far more capable than they are being given credit for here. They will and can handle rough water. They are usually used on more sheltered waters though so I understand the confusion. The problem is the typical run of the mill round tube aluminum dual pontoon boat won’t keep you very dry in windy and choppy conditions, but neither will a flat bottom skiff. There is also danger of the bow stuffing in a wave and water rushing over and swamping the deck.

The Pontoon Cat 24 is not the run of the mill round aluminum tubed pontoon boat. I have been contemplating building one for my lake house in Northwest Wisconsin which is on a deep water 5000 acre lake. Over the last 25 years I’ve noticed that pontoon boats have far exceeded all other types of watercraft on the lake due to their multipurpose abilities to provide a stable and safe platform that is easy for young and old to get in and be on while also allowing people to fish, swim, tube, camp, cruise, and generally just have fun on the water with.

There is no doubt that building a boat will give you immense satisfaction and allow you to tailor whatever you build to your specific needs. The problem is that it may not be the most economical choice. Boats generally are not used often and they depreciate quickly so used boats often are a better value than home built ones. It is not unusual for people to buy a boat to do the Great Loop and then sell it once they have completed their trip creating good opportunities to get some nice deals.

The forum is a great place to learn, get help and encouragement while also interacting with the designers and other builders.

Best wishes to you for success as you embark on your boat building journey.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:34 am
by jacquesmm
I missed this thread because it was posted in the Woods section.
Neither the pc22/25 or the EC are suited for the Great Loop or for any offshore navigation.
The Great loop requires several offshore passages in the Great Lakes and in Florida.
Those lights catamarans or pontoons boats are great for inshore fun not for offshore.
Look at any of the Skootas, even the 24 would do the job if you are frugal.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:44 pm
by SLRS
"Those lights catamarans or pontoons boats are great for inshore fun not for offshore." Naturally, I need to ask why. Surely these designs are not so weak if properly fabricated that they cannot handle mild weather. I don't think anyone would take these out if a storm were coming or waves were out of hand. I have seen inshore weather toss barge covers like they were paperplates.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:18 pm
by SLRS
Browndog, I pretty much agree with you and I like the used boat idea...if what I wanted was available.

Also, this would not be my first boat. I have built a few as well as many airplanes. Generally I find that when people ask "how long did that take to build?", I think they are asking the wrong question. The time spent building is for me as enjoyable as using it and therefore, the question is just wrong. It implies that there is something negative about investing time to create something that is exactly what you want. Like a floating camp site. So, I understand that there is a significant investment, both in time and monetarily, but sometimes I would rather invest my time and money than to pay someone else to have all the fun. Besides, this boat, while being large dimensionally, is not really all that complicated a project. I have worked on from 747's to Rolexes, biplanes to barges. This is totally doable.

Also, before anyone else mentions the dangers of cold water, I grew up in Michigan, have lived in Minnesota (MUCH colder) and have swam in ice water. After about a minute in really cold water, you are not able to rescue yourself.

I have seen pontoons on the ocean, and while I would not be interested in taking on large waves and even larger swells, it is done more times than some realize. I think the key is having enough wisdom to know when to stay in a safe refuge, how to check the weather, knowing your equipment, knowing your route. etc.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:41 pm
by fallguy1000
Typically, hull construction dictates.

If a designer is concerned about people launching off the surf, for example, they would say the boat is for inland use, because they didn't design in pound the hull to hell safety factors into the hulls and skins, stringers, and bulkheads.

All boats are designed for certain requirements.

If the planing cat has twin 90s, it clearly is not designed for any major offshore plans. A powercat like the Skootas with canoe hulls and significantly wider beams do not need the 90s, but they are designed for offshore to 20 miles. They, for example, are not considered blue water boats either.

What a designer generally does in the design process is determines planned use and then also applies safety margins.

It is very possible the pontoon cat simply does not have the structure or safety margins for offshore poundings. That doesn't mean it can't handle 2-4 foot seas, but it does mean it was not designed for offshore use.

This is one of those times when you can look at the plans and they clearly tell you if the design is for offshore use.

The problem with all boats is someone always gets the notion they can use a boat not equipped for certain waters 'if they are careful'. But conditions dictate, not care.

In my small skiff, for example, I would not drive 16 miles out onto Lake Superior. One tournament weekend, 2019 actually, the fish were all out at 16. But I refused to take my boat out that far. Why? Even in flat weather, the big lake can change quickly, a storm can come up and if I have to go in quickly, my skiff can only go about 5mph in the stew. Or 28 tops. So, it is about half hour out, or 3 hours in the stew. Thst is a long, awful trip. Many things can go wrong. Water temps during the tournament were low 50s. Survival in that water is limited to a couple hours.

If the designer says the boat is not suited for offshore; it is because it was not designed for it.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:46 pm
by fallguy1000
What about the offshore designs?

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:52 pm
by SLRS
I found this to be relevant: EC24 - How not for offshore is it?

Actually, I am less concerned about large waves and bad weather (because I will not be out in it), than I am of having a wall tent semi permanently erected on deck acting like a drone chute or a wind vane. I am drawn to efficiency, but can see that wind resistance will eventually be a problem for my plans. The more speed, and depending on wind direction, the bigger an issue...unless going downwind...

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:09 am
by SLRS
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:46 pm What about the offshore designs?
[/quot

The answer to that is pretty simple. I don't find any offshore designs that interest me, and why would I need an offshore design anyway? Offshore implies bad weather and high seas. Something I would never be involved in anyway. Very frustrated that this has turned into a "unless it is glass smooth, this design is way out of the intended design parameters". I can't even ask a simple question as I am first required to defend my intentions all because of the word "offshore".

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:15 am
by fallguy1000
SLRS wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:09 am
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:46 pm What about the offshore designs?
[/quot

The answer to that is pretty simple. I don't find any offshore designs that interest me, and why would I need an offshore design anyway? Offshore implies bad weather and high seas. Something I would never be involved in anyway. Very frustrated that this has turned into a "unless it is glass smooth, this design is way out of the intended design parameters". I can't even ask a simple question as I am first required to defend my intentions all because of the word "offshore".
When shopping for a boat, you develop a statement of requirements. Sometimes this is done more or less eloquently.

Your frustration is that the designer said the boat designs are not suited for ocean crossings which are needed for the Great Loop.

I bought the LB26 plans years ago. After staring at the plans a few months, I decided it was a bit small to do the Inside Passage and shelved the idea. I did love the design, but not the idea of bobbing in 5 foot seas.

The forum members here all like boats. And we like to see builds. But finding the right boat is an important step. If the designer tells you to pass on these two for a loop boat, reconsider other options. Like I said earlier, the DE25 is a faster build, less expensive to power, better accomodations for the loop. Or if you wanted more of a cuddy boat, the carolina series would also work as a minimalist loop boat.

If you are after fuel economy, the Skoota series could work. Even the 20 footer could be a minimalist loop boat.

Have you ever been in a place where the seastate changed rapidly? In my skiff, I came around an island face and the waves went from one foot to about 7 footers. It was easy, I turned around, but doing a passage in a boat with minimal forward freeboard is also a problem. I would say that boat these boats you are asking about may not fair well in fast 7 footers. It isn't just operator error. Typically on Superior, waves pick up after lunch. If you leave port and head into the wind; you can return on following seas, but it is a bit scary when they build up above 4', even well timed.

If the designer says not the right boat; accept it and move on. His financial interest is selling plans. If he just says it'd work fine; he has a greater chance of selling you a plan. His integrity here is exceptional.

Sometimes best friends tell you no.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:23 pm
by jacquesmm
People have crossed oceans in/on kayaks, inflatable dinghies and SUP's. That does not make those watercrafts offshore boats.
I sailed small, open boats offshore when I was young and took crazy risks but I can not recommend that. An EC24 may very well survive bad weather in a Great Lakes or Gulf of Mexico storm but it is not guaranteed and it will certainly not be fun.

I am liable for that type of recommendation and must say that those boats are not designed for your program.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:02 pm
by OneWayTraffic
Perhaps it would be helpful if you enumerate a more exact statement of purpose for the boat. Maximum size you can build/trailer, requirements in use, nice to haves and so on. At the moment you've said Mississipi, Great lakes and possibly Great loop. How far off in the lakes are you planning to go? By Great loop are you planning to do the whole thing or just some of it? What is it that attracts you to a cat? Keep in mind that some designs lend themselves to modifications, which may make a boat more or less seaworthy. For example I'm putting side benches in my C17 that will double as flotation pontoons.

Re: PC24 vs EC24 questions.

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:11 am
by jacquesmm
They lack rigidity, the hulls can twist in relationship to each other. I can not do anything about that in the design unless I draw a thick deck, several inches high. I try to alleviate that twisting by using cross beams with a fat section and epoxy welding them to hull and deck. This makes my pontoon boats more able than the plain Al tube pontoons but is not perfect. Once you add a high deck or a cabin, you have a girder that will stiffen the structure. That is why the Skoota's are better suited for this program.