New EPA gasoline fuel systems.

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TomW1
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Re: New EPA gasoline fuel systems.

Post by TomW1 »

fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:11 pm The CG doesn't even state they are required.

https://safeafloat.com/wp-content/uploa ... l-4-14.pdf
You missed Combined USCG and EPA Rules pages J7 and J8. They both say the same as the ABYC rules requiring carbon tanks or a pressurized system. fallguy I did all the research back when these rules first came out and know them forward and backward. It does not take me long to find them in the rules of any agency. The ABYC must be flollowed by any builder large or small, home built or not, the EPA set the original emission rules and has worked with the CG and ABYC to get a viable set of regulations for boat builders, that will be cost effective. Today the cost has gone up but it was about $300 in 2013. As Gerr points out the size of the carbon canister depends on the size of the boat, up to 26' is one size then the size goes up. There are companies that sell you complete systems Atwood is one.

Regards, Tom
Restored Mirror Dinghy, Bought OD18 built by CL, Westlawn School of Yacht Design courses. LT US Navy 1970-1978

fallguy1000
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Re: New EPA gasoline fuel systems.

Post by fallguy1000 »

3.1.6 talks about venting and never mentions the carbon canister

ABYC is the governing body over small craft and H24.13 covers venting.

Show me a citation or any citation from ABYC H24 that says diurnal tanks and carbon canisters are required.

They don't exist per my surveyor.

The carb and the epa have the rule; not the abyc. If the abyc want to require boaters follow the epa; then they need to revise their spec to reflect epa, not put in a picture by an outboard, the words epa.

If you are a boat builder in California; rules differ.
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OrangeQuest
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Re: New EPA gasoline fuel systems.

Post by OrangeQuest »

fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:52 pm 3.1.6 talks about venting and never mentions the carbon canister

ABYC is the governing body over small craft and H24.13 covers venting.

Show me a citation or any citation from ABYC H24 that says diurnal tanks and carbon canisters are required.

They don't exist per my surveyor.

The carb and the epa have the rule; not the abyc. If the abyc want to require boaters follow the epa; then they need to revise their spec to reflect epa, not put in a picture by an outboard, the words epa.

If you are a boat builder in California; rules differ.
Everything I found on researching this I will agree with you Dan.. Crazy right!? I would agree with you! :lol: :lol:

FYI: I am not spending $50.00 to get an answer on this when the ABYC refers to the EPA's CFR 40 to be following ABYC standards. And can't find anywhere EPA required home builders to have to comply with the regulation.
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Re: New EPA gasoline fuel systems.

Post by TomW1 »

Dan, you are totally wrong I gave you the link in the USCG Regs and the ABYC Regs and you still want to argue with me. Gave you Dr. Gerrs simplified condensation of the rules ann Moellers interpretation of what needs to be done to meet the rules, and still you argue wilth me. Cracker Larry and I spent weeks making sure we knew what these new Regs were applied to Jacques designed boats. That was 8 years ago and nothing has changed.

As for your surveyer he is totally wrong, boats must meet all USCG regulations and ABYC Regulations. Since you are moving to the Gulf Coast, USCG regs will definately apply to you, once you are over 3 miles off the coast. I gave you that reg. If you look at the first page 1 of H-24 you see the Certificate from the US Gpverment making it a legally binding document. https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr ... 4.1993.pdf All ABYC regulations are so desginated.

So why don't you quit fightiing it and go with flow. The Regs are there to be met by all builders. You cannot pick and choose, unless you want to take a chance on not getting caught..

OrangeQuest all small portable tanks are built to the regs.. No use for you to be involved in this discussion unless you know the regulations.

Regards, Tom I'm going to bed.
Restored Mirror Dinghy, Bought OD18 built by CL, Westlawn School of Yacht Design courses. LT US Navy 1970-1978

fallguy1000
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Re: New EPA gasoline fuel systems.

Post by fallguy1000 »

Not really 'wanting' to argue, but clarity is lacking by ABYC. Nowhere that I saw in H24.13 says diurnal venting is required. See the last part of Gerr's article. For ABYC to say boats must be EPA compliant is silly when ABYC even declares vent sizs, etc. I'm not discussing it further and meeting the demands of surveyor.
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OrangeQuest
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Re: New EPA gasoline fuel systems.

Post by OrangeQuest »

OrangeQuest all small portable tanks are built to the regs.. No use for you to be involved in this discussion unless you know the regulations.
Can you be anymore wrong than with this statement?

It is you that needs to read the regulations posted by the EPA.
The Regs are there to be met by all builders.
Is this statement you made wrong? I am building a boat, I run a company that must comply with federal and state regulations to be on the water. Would I not need to know the regulations that apply to me? My boat is being built to the USCG regulations even those that do not apply to the outboard motors for fuel and electrical.

You voiced your "expert" opinion on my portable tank being in compliance... if you bothered reading my statement, I already stated it was, and so is the fuel lines and primer bulb. Something you don't know is my 5HP outboard on our canoe also meets the EPA regulations on emissions. Another thing you do not know is because the portable tanks build up to 5PSI of pressure before venting, if the motor is not running, that pressure can reach enough to force the needle and seat in the carb to open, dumping fuel down into the cylinders. The warm motor then vaporizes the fuel and causes more fuel vapors to escape into the atmosphere than if the fuel tank was not sealed. If the motor is running it causes it to run richer and increases the exhaust emissions. Which causes more harm to the water the motor is in. So much for EPA regulating things for the better.

I spent 30 years repairing and modifying Ford vehicles to meet federal regulations on emission controls. I worked on engines with the only requirement was a working PVC system to the full-blown emission controls on modern automobiles on the roads today. I worked side by side with Ford engineers on those same emission controls and even some of Fords experimental vehicles. I have forgot more about emission controls than most people ever learn in a life time. Whereas you read about them I made sure that the vehicles I worked on complied to them.

The EPA is just starting to get involved with the emissions from vessels over the last few decades whereas they have been involved in the automotive industry for more than 50 years. I have been part of the evolving emission controls as they have been changing from just controlling the bypass gasses from combustion to the control of the exhaust gases from the tailpipe. I can tell you in detail the evaporative vapor control systems, how they work, the components involved and how to diagnose and test them down to what diagnostic test equipment that would be used. I was what was called an emission control specialist. I diagnosed and repaired, if possible, vehicles that entered a legal battle with FoMoCo under the lemon laws for the greater Houston area for more than 20 years of my career in the automotive industry. Very few of those vehicles were bought back by FoMoCo. This topic is nothing new to me.
define what is running lose emission controls and how they apply to the marine boat builder:
1060.104 What running loss emission control requirements apply
§ 1060.104 What running loss emission control requirements apply?
(a) Engines and equipment must meet running loss requirements as follows:

(1) Marine SI engines and vessels are not subject to running loss emission standards.
Diurnal emissions. Evaporative hydrocarbon emissions may not exceed 0.2 grams per gallon of fuel tank capacity when measured using the test procedures specified in § 1048.501. Diurnal emission controls must continue to function during engine operation.
Marine vessels using spark-ignition engines are subject to the requirements of 40 CFR part 1045. The vessels are not required to comply with the evaporative emission standards and related requirements of this part 1048.


Please note: 40 CFR part 1045 is about exhaust emission stds for outboards and PWC and are not required to comply.

These quoted EPA CFRs are to confirm what Dan has been saying TOM! Please use your expertise in this subject to prove otherwise.
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fallguy1000
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Re: New EPA gasoline fuel systems.

Post by fallguy1000 »

OrangeQuest wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:26 am
fallguy1000 wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:41 pm
ABYC never adopted the standard. I called the surveyor to ask if I can use t taps, and asked him as long as he was on the phone.
Here is from the ABYC statement: https://abycinc.org/page/StandardsSupp58

This link could be helpful to others that want a little info on the ABYC standards.

Which you can see they reference to the EPA standard.
https://ecfr.io/Title-40/Volume-37/Chapter-I


The ECFR website is helpful in other ways too.
Allow me to point us all back to Ken's post. The ABYC basically said EPA and Coast Guard wrote regs to follow, but ABYC fell short and never wrote the ruled into their own reg.

So, all we are saying is it looks like ABYC made it so you can meet ABYC while failing to meet EPA and CARB.

Think about it this way Tom. If California said you have to have a spill catcher, then noone else would be affected by the CARB promulgated law, but ABYC refers to them. The same is true of EPA. They refer to them, but the surveyor's governing body is ABYC. If ABYC requires meeting EPA; they don't say it. They say EPA made rules you are all subject to...

Get it?

Noone is calling you a liar or wrong. We are just saying it looks like ABYC took a troublesome shortcut.

ps...be nice to Ken
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fallguy1000
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Re: New EPA gasoline fuel systems.

Post by fallguy1000 »

Here is a banner ad from the tanks I bought which clearly state they are "EPA compliant".

The tank does NOT have diurnal vent fittings. In some fine print I found while digging; it says this tank and all their permanent tanks are for refit. I will add that pic to the bottom.
AF933A68-4F0E-4E79-BBA1-C2E175047DF9.png
Here is the catalog where it says the tanks they say are EPA compliant are actually only allowed on refits. Pretty annoying business. All of it.
3EDB8DBC-60A3-4A51-83B0-00E7E43366AC.png
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Re: New EPA gasoline fuel systems.

Post by Jaysen »

For the first time I feel like fixing up a 40yr old pile is the winning position! No need to meet the refs that didn’t exist at time of original build for the win!
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Re: New EPA gasoline fuel systems.

Post by TomW1 »

As long as they are EPA compliant your good to go. It llooks like they are using a presueriized system on that tank with the fittings involved.

So lets put this dog to rest. :D

Regards, Tom;,♦
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