Fillets vs. Cleats

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jonnymac
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Re: Fillets vs. Cleats

Post by jonnymac »

lots of good stuff in there!
OneWayTraffic wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:10 am If anyone is interested in how the professionals deal with primary vs secondary, this is interesting reading. Powerpoint type presentation.

https://www.aerodefevent.com/wp-content ... rials.pdf

I learned something by reading it: Especially this.
• The region around the interface that determines bond performance is only ~6 molecules thick
• A fingerprint is ~1000 molecules thick
• Residue from a human breath can be ~40-100 molecules thick
• A properly prepared surface is chemically reactive and very delicate
• Properties change very quickly with (seemingly) small changes in environment, handling, out time

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Re: Fillets vs. Cleats

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That was the part I found most interesting too.

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Re: Fillets vs. Cleats

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In a nutshell it's all about properly wetting the surface with the adhesive. If the adhesive is in intimate chemical contact with the surface it will bond. Sanding helps, as does not breathing heavily on the surface. In places where I must get good bonding I prime the surfaces with a thin coat of neat epoxy just after sanding, and before I apply putty. Occasionally I'll sand the wet epoxy into the surface with a scrap of paper, especially when I have doubts about the quality of the job, or if too much time has gone by since first sanding.

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VT_Jeff
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Re: Fillets vs. Cleats

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OneWayTraffic wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:52 am Designers put in large safety margins for this.
In this particular case, no glass or tape is specified at all in the lamination schedule. It would seem that the deck-to-transom joint is either not intended to be structural, or else the plans are incomplete. But whatever the builder did there for glass was above and beyond the plans.
There are only two seasons in Vermont: boating season, and boat-building season.

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Re: Fillets vs. Cleats

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VT_Jeff wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:30 pm
OneWayTraffic wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:52 am Designers put in large safety margins for this.
In this particular case, no glass or tape is specified at all in the lamination schedule. It would seem that the deck-to-transom joint is either not intended to be structural, or else the plans are incomplete. But whatever the builder did there for glass was above and beyond the plans.
Likely not to be required. You find them here under 'heavy duty reinforcements.'

https://boatbuildercentral.com/support- ... etails.pdf

Of course hitting an underwater object is exactly the kind of thing that heavy duty reinforcements are for. :D

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VT_Jeff
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Re: Fillets vs. Cleats

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OneWayTraffic wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:38 pm
VT_Jeff wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:30 pm
OneWayTraffic wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:52 am Designers put in large safety margins for this.
In this particular case, no glass or tape is specified at all in the lamination schedule. It would seem that the deck-to-transom joint is either not intended to be structural, or else the plans are incomplete. But whatever the builder did there for glass was above and beyond the plans.
Likely not to be required. You find them here under 'heavy duty reinforcements.'

https://boatbuildercentral.com/support- ... etails.pdf

Of course hitting an underwater object is exactly the kind of thing that heavy duty reinforcements are for. :D
Great find, I'd never seen that.
There are only two seasons in Vermont: boating season, and boat-building season.

Completed Paul Butler 14' Clark Fork Drifter
Completed Jacques Mertens FS14LS + 10%, Build Thread
Started Iain Oughtred Tammie Norrie

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VT_Jeff
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Re: Fillets vs. Cleats

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OneWayTraffic wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:38 pm
VT_Jeff wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:30 pm
OneWayTraffic wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:52 am Designers put in large safety margins for this.
In this particular case, no glass or tape is specified at all in the lamination schedule. It would seem that the deck-to-transom joint is either not intended to be structural, or else the plans are incomplete. But whatever the builder did there for glass was above and beyond the plans.
Likely not to be required. You find them here under 'heavy duty reinforcements.'

https://boatbuildercentral.com/support- ... etails.pdf

Of course hitting an underwater object is exactly the kind of thing that heavy duty reinforcements are for. :D
Seems like my antique evinrude 35 was setup to kick up but my modern honda 20 hp is not, at least that I can determine through the manual etc. I would think kickup would be the best reaction to a submerged log.
There are only two seasons in Vermont: boating season, and boat-building season.

Completed Paul Butler 14' Clark Fork Drifter
Completed Jacques Mertens FS14LS + 10%, Build Thread
Started Iain Oughtred Tammie Norrie

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Re: Fillets vs. Cleats

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OneWayTraffic wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:38 pm
VT_Jeff wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:30 pm
OneWayTraffic wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:52 am Designers put in large safety margins for this.
In this particular case, no glass or tape is specified at all in the lamination schedule. It would seem that the deck-to-transom joint is either not intended to be structural, or else the plans are incomplete. But whatever the builder did there for glass was above and beyond the plans.
Likely not to be required. You find them here under 'heavy duty reinforcements.'

https://boatbuildercentral.com/support- ... etails.pdf

Of course hitting an underwater object is exactly the kind of thing that heavy duty reinforcements are for. :D
I think if this was my boat and the same thing happened then I would want the tape/glass to fail/give and not rip the plywood apart. This looks like a lot easier repair than having to replace the whole transom. So, this could have been an unintentional safety give. But it's nice you guys are back to focusing on the repair and not showing off how to figure the math on transom height. But I will give Dan some slack cause we all know he is a math geek! :wink:
"that it isn't just an ordinary sort of boat. Sometimes it's a Boat, and sometimes it's more of an Accident. It all depends." "Depends on what?" "On whether I'm on the top of it or underneath it."
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VT_Jeff
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Re: Fillets vs. Cleats

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OrangeQuest wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:10 pm ...how to figure the math on transom height.
Glad you brought up the transom height issue, I was starting to wonder if people were tiring of it.

To summarize my thoughts on it: he, the OP, and I both ended up with transoms that were a fair amount too short. Both were built to 20" for 20" motors, so I'm thinking that the devil must be somewhere in the details: the correct way to measure, incorporating the angle, etc.

If I were BBC-master for a day, I'd do this: The plans would indicate that transoms should not be final-cut until the intended motor has been correctly measured, since it's pretty clear that a 20" motor is not 20" universally. Also, if possible, kits would not be cut until the buyer provides an accurate and correct transom measurement. This will avoid the need for people to build-up transoms, add extenders, or just live with a motor teetering on the top of the transom.

Appreciate you keeping the topic alive.
There are only two seasons in Vermont: boating season, and boat-building season.

Completed Paul Butler 14' Clark Fork Drifter
Completed Jacques Mertens FS14LS + 10%, Build Thread
Started Iain Oughtred Tammie Norrie

jonnymac
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Re: Fillets vs. Cleats

Post by jonnymac »

what i thought was interesting about the report is you can actually test to see if the surface is correcy roughed up or has some other issue. water drop on the surface should be flat, not beaded up. I’m going to do some water tests once I get back to boat building after the holidays.

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