Box top

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JSHaley
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Box top

Post by JSHaley »

Still chasing ideas...

Still thinking Shanty boat. Impressed there are a few houseboat designs here less than 20' but they do not fit my needs.

I did bump into a design elsewhere for a small houseboat, 16', that is essentially a box on a barge. The design is still being sold but the designer is no longer around, and I see a few examples of it completed. But the simplicity attracted me and I can live in a small space (8' longish and beam).

My question: I see the rectangular cockpit of the Phantom and flats boats. I see the XF20 carries an amazing amount of people in the photos. Was thinking of a simple box top made of composite panels (wood and FG or other). Can someone share the dimensions of cockpit in XF20 or even PH16? Their hulls are far superior than the barges I am seeing and use modern construction. I even thought of the "box" being removable. Plus the box design may lend itself low profile (pop-top, etc)

Usage would be low & slow. Protected waters, small engine, etc.

fallguy1000
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Re: Box top

Post by fallguy1000 »

You are confused

My bedside manner could use some work, but you are confusing hull types and the vessel displacement.

So, a planing hull and a high top are not really good either because the top lends itself to stability problems. The center of the boat's gravity, more or less gets too high, and a planing hull gets heavy and does not function anymore or well or safely. The boat can flip over or turn on its side.

Also, a vessel needs fairly significant displacement for all the cabin business. A problem for any cabin design and one I am too familiar with these days.

The boat designer understands these issues and vessels are designed with these issues in mind. Adding a shanty to a boat like the Phantom is not a good idea.

There are other designs that are not planing hulls that will perform much better and much safer.

It'd be great for you to consider more suitable designs. It should be noted that a very short boat with a full height shanty becomes dangerous in even mild seastates.
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

JSHaley
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Re: Box top

Post by JSHaley »

Hey, your bedside manner is fine. I am confused and appreciate the clarification.

If I could follow up, I would not think of running such a profile at planing speed. I see a barge with a 10HP on it so thought I could put a small motor on a "better" hull. But I see what you are saying. This is why JM has the HM and HMD as separate boats. I think I ge it.

So thank you again

TomW1
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Re: Box top

Post by TomW1 »

JS what are your uses for the boat going to be. If we knew that we could help you better. There is a lot of difference in a 16' boat/barge and a 19' boat/barge. Are you going to use it for overnight trips, etc, etc.

Tom
Restored Mirror Dinghy, Bought OD18 built by CL, Westlawn School of Yacht Design courses. LT US Navy 1970-1978

fallguy1000
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Re: Box top

Post by fallguy1000 »

JSHaley wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:47 pm Hey, your bedside manner is fine. I am confused and appreciate the clarification.

If I could follow up, I would not think of running such a profile at planing speed. I see a barge with a 10HP on it so thought I could put a small motor on a "better" hull. But I see what you are saying. This is why JM has the HM and HMD as separate boats. I think I ge it.

So thank you again
Planing boats run at less than planing speeds often squat. The PH22 is a really cool boat designed for speed, not a high mass and cabin and loads.
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

JSHaley
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Re: Box top

Post by JSHaley »

JS what are your uses for the boat going to be.
In summary: Inland waterways, fair-weather use, overnight accommodations on water or trailer. 10hp high thrust, speeds less than 7mph. Entertain 6, feed 4, sleep 2. Towed by minivan rated for 3500lb (but I wish to stay way under). The GT23 is great, but I am thinking (with zero experience) that length extends build time so am thinking < 20'

I live in upstate NY - no shortage of inland waterways. The closest is actually the Erie Canal which extends over to the Hudson River. The NY canal system also connects with some of the Finger Lakes (long, narrow, north-South), crosses Oneida Lake, and plugs into Lake Champlain (larger). In addition, NY has a wilderness area (Adirondacks) that is speckled with lakes surrounded by public lands (not anchoring in someone's front lawn). North of us is Canada with two canal systems (Rideau and Trent-Severn) that meander through wilderness and cottage country. The Trent-Severn actually connects with Georgian Bay off of Lake Huron. Although Georgian Bay is not to be trifled with, its shores have several archipelagos that we canoe camp. Emphasis on camp, I love to camp on land or on water but shy away from crowded campgrounds where the "sounds of nature" include your neighbor passing gas.

Another oddity that may help with physics. I am concerned about towing a flat face box. There are a few camping trailers and of course the Catalina 25 sailboat that use "pop-tops." The accommodations may have sitting room underway but the roof can be lifted with canvas sides. So if sidewalls extend 5' above deck, but 1.5 or 2' of that is canvas there is weight savings and center of gravity benefits. I even thought of a Skin-On-Frame roof.

Oh heck - it has happened. One thing I find so impressive about this site is the number of offerings. Surely I can find an established design that fits the bill and not be one of those guys that is seeking a specialized floating moon unit. Drats.

JSHaley
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Re: Box top

Post by JSHaley »

Thank you, this thread was helpful:
viewtopic.php?t=65746

Looks like I would lose some stability - which is what several have mentioned.

fallguy1000
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Re: Box top

Post by fallguy1000 »

Another thing to consider is helm location. The helm must be forward in a shanty boat. This means the operator will be forward and that means a full width bow is important.

On another forum, a fellow posted a story about his boat and how it felt like it was going to go over sideways. We finally asked for a picture and some fool had built a heavy aluminum wheelhouse on a 24' planing boat with a narrow front. He removed the wheelhouse and it solved the tipping.

The designer has considered all of these. You might be able to reduce the gt23 by 10% length only, but personally, I have been on many houseboats and the 23 is already really small. I'd build it if I were you. It is a fine and minimal design.
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

JSHaley
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Re: Box top

Post by JSHaley »

The helm must be forward in a shanty boat.
Ok, that has not been my experience. Out of respect for JM I am not mentioning other designs by name but there are several where the vessel is tiller steered looking over the shanty. The one I am looking at does have a weird wheel set up. At front of box on inside AND outside. So you can steer from within or have the wheel behind you as you sit on bow deck. But for other points I would value a wider bow deck. The XFS20 has a flatter bow than PH18 for instance.

But I think I am beating a dead horse here...

"The designer has considered all of these." And the designer has gone to great lengths to support some level of customization but a box on top of a planing hull sounds like it is over the line. I was confused by 20 people standing on a XF20. The two other designs I am looking at are 18' and 16'(!). I am telling myself that the difference between that and the GT23 plus towing rule that out...

I very much appreciate the feedback.

TomW1
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Re: Box top

Post by TomW1 »

JS I was looking at the PC20. What if you put a very light weight shanty on it? Use the 8' beam and a 10 or 15HP motor. Use foam for the shanty and don't build it any bigger than you need it. Or make it out of canvas, Sunbrella or any of the new camping fabrics, they last 10-15 years or more before you have to replace them. Especially in your area. You can build the helm inside and put windows and -doors in it for ventilation.

Well good luck in your search for the boat you want.

Tom
Restored Mirror Dinghy, Bought OD18 built by CL, Westlawn School of Yacht Design courses. LT US Navy 1970-1978

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